Lords Sitting of 25 May 1809

KING'S MESSAGE RELATING TO AUSTRIA, &c.
The Earl of Liverpoolpresented a Message from his majesty relative to the proposed subsidies to Austria, Spain, and Portugal [for which see the proceedings of the House of Commons], and moved that it be taken into consideration tomorrow, and that the lords be summoned.
Earl Greyrose, and made a few remarks on the subject of the Message. As he was quite unacquainted with the intentions of ministers relative to the application of the pecuniary aid, he could only offer general observations. It was impossible for him to know what were the peculiar circumstances of the case, and how far they might
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be such as to justify subsidies. But thus much he felt himself entitled to say on the subject, that after the recent experience that had been afforded us with respect to our pecuniary assistance to foreign nations, and after viewing what the state of Europe now was, and the probability of what might speedily happen, he thought that the first duty of the ministers of this country, was the preserving and husbanding our resources, to meet the possible emergency in which we might be soon called upon to make still greater efforts than we had hitherto done; not to assist other nations, but solely in our own national defence. Indeed, if it should ever be possible to obtain peace, we should yet have to assume that defensive attitude which would leave our peace without the best enjoyments, blessings, and securities of a peace; and we therefore were called upon, whether for peace or for war, to exercise care and economy respecting our financial resources. This observation he applied either to the case of Austria, or to the future wants of Spain or Portugal. He would not attempt to give any decided opinion upon the subject at present, but he could not avoid stating his general opinion respecting our readiness to subsidize foreign powers at this period, after the experience we had so unfortunately had.
The Earl of Liverpoolrose to explain to the noble lord that there was no mention in the Message of his majesty that the Treaty with Austria was a treaty of subsidy. In fact, it was not so. There was no such thing in the treaty. The Message also stated, that when the ratifications were exchanged, then the treaty would be laid before their lordships. Previous to that period, it could not be done. All that government meant to propose to parliament, in consequence of what had been said in the Message respecting pecuniary aid, was merely to ask a Vote of Credit, which was common before the session of parliament closed, to enable government to act as new circumstances might render it necessary before it re-assembled. The whole extent of the sum intended to be asked was three millions; a sum which, all things considered, his lordship thought could not be regarded as extraordinary. Under the present circumstances of Europe, he thought that if ever government might require confidence, it was when they asked for such a vote of credit.
The Earl of Suffolk, though he would not oppose the vote of credit, could not

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but consider that whatever subsidies might be granted, would ultimately fall a burthen upon the people of this country.
The motion was then put and carried, nem. dis.

AMERICA.
Lord Sidmouthwished to be informed whether it was intended to make any communication to parliament respecting the state of our relations with America?
Earl Bathurstsaid, the negociation being still pending, it was not intended to make any communication to parliament. The arrangement which had been entered into by his majesty's ministers, in America and the government of the United States was unauthorized, the former having made concessions without demanding any of those conditions, the compliance with which ought to have been made the basis of granting such concessions.
Lord Sidmouthasked, if he was then to consider the arrangement made by his majesty's minister in America as wholly unauthorized?
Earl Bathurstanswered in the affirmative.
Earl Greythought from the expression used by the noble earl, that some instructions had been given to Mr. Erskine to make certain concessions, which the latter might have misunderstood. From the arrangements as published in the newspapers, it seemed as if the measures adopted had been preconcerted, for every thing followed in such order and rule, that it was almost impossible to believe but what Mr. Erskine, of whose ability he had the highest opinion, conceived that he was acting strictly according to his instructions. It must be evident, that by the disavowal of this arrangement, the difficulties in the further negociation with America would be materially increased, and when known in America, it might give rise to some imputations against the character and good faith of this country, under the impression that a trick had been resorted to, for the sake of obtaining a little temporary advantage for ourselves. A fearful responsibility, therefore, rested upon ministers, and investigation must take place.
The Earl of Liverpoolagreed that the disavowal of this arrangement must necessarily increase the difficulties in the negociation with America; but that could not be imputed to ministers, as in making that arrangement, Mr. Erskine had not only acted unauthorised by his instruc-
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tions, but in direct contradiction to his instructions; he thought it necessary to state this distinctly, as the noble earl appeared to have misunderstood his noble friend. Care would be taken in the Order, which would appear as soon as the course of business would allow, that those vessels which, in the mean time, had sailed in consequence of the confidence reposed in the arrangement made in America, should be excluded from the operation of that Order, and that these persons who had thus embarked their goods should not be losers. As to the discussion of the subject, ministers would be anxious, when the proper time arrived, that every possible information should be given to parliament.

ARMY REGULATIONS.—LORD BURG- HERSH.
The Earl of Suffolkrose to notice an affair of recent occurrence, particularly as he saw a noble lord present (the earl of Westmoreland), who, he supposed, could give him satisfactory information on the subject, which related to the interests of the military profession, to which he himself had the honour to belong. He alluded to the case of the promotion of lord Burghersh, contrary to the Regulations of the Commander in Chief of the army. He could not help thinking that the duke of York would not have permitted such a promotion. He had before stated, that the army was in many respects under obligations to his royal highness, and particularly for this regulation. His lordship was proceeding to make some observations on the impropriety of a person's being in the situation of Commander in Chief, who was controulable always by ministers, when he was called to order. His lordship making a few more remarks, the earl of Liverpool rose to order, and observed that no motion was before the house.
Earl Stanhoperemarked, that lord Suffolk had not yet sat down.
Lord Suffolkproceeded, and stated, that if he could get no answer, he should, on a future day, move for a copy of the orders of the commander in chief, as well as for the particulars of the promotion of lord Burghersh, as he was sure that such proceeding must be highly injurious to the feelings of the officers of the army in general.
Nothing further was said, and his lordship did not fix any day for bringing forward a motion.