Lords Sitting of 9 May 1809

KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING PORTUGAL.
Upon the order of the day being read for taking his majesty's Message into consideration;
The Earl of Liverpoolrose for the purpose of moving an humble Address, expressing the thanks of that house to his majesty for the communication of his most gracious Message. There was no necessity for his taking up much of their lordships' time in shewing the propriety of granting a loan of 600,000 l. to his royal highness the prince Regent of Portugal. He would call to their lordships' recollection, that when the unfortunate change of affairs obliged the prince Regent to quit his hereditary dominions, and seek an asylum on the continent of America, his majesty's government thought it wise and prudent to give every encouragement to so magnanimous an undertaking. His royal highness had to convey the whole of his family, and a great part of those who formed the court of Lisbon, and for this purpose it was thought expedient to grant from this country the sum of 80,000 l. It had been certainly granted without a direct application to parliament, because there was no session at the time, and had been afterwards considered among the

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Army Extraordinaries. The result of the Portuguese court emigrating to a distant country, naturally induced many others to follow them to their new residence; and for still further aiding this loyal spirit of the Portuguese, another sum was at that time advanced of about 80,000 l. making in the whole 160,000 l. It was for the purpose of enabling his royal highness to repay those sums which had been expended in his behalf, and of enabling him to meet those difficulties which attended him in the Brazils, that his majesty had been induced to agree, that the loan should be granted. The Prince Regent on all occasions had most signally manifested himself the faithful ally of Great Britain. He would not detain the time of the house by any further observation, but should move, "That an humble Address be presented to his majesty, thanking him for his most gracious communication, and assuring his majesty this house will readily comply with the request his majesty had condescended to communicate for the purpose of being better enabled to perform any stipulation which his majesty had thought proper to make with his royal highness the Prince Regent of Portugal."
The Duke of Norfolksaid, he did not rise with the intention of proposing any objection in the way of this loan being granted to the Prince Regent of Portugal. A prince who on all occasions had shewn himself a true friend and faithful ally to this country, was deserving of every assistance, when dire necessity enforced him to quit his hereditary dominions, and seek refuge in another quarter of the globe. Had the loan been greater than 600,000 l. no opposition would have proceeded from him, after he had heard the explanation given by the noble secretary. But on this occasion he was induced to express his opinion as an individual, of those loans which rumour informed him were in contemplation. He had not authority for saying, but there was little doubt further assistance would be extended to the efforts of the inhabitants of the peninsula against the unjust aggression of the French emperor. With respect to the Portuguese government now on the continent of America; he trusted their dynasty would never again return to the Tagus, and that the governments of the peninsula would never regain their American dominions, because the government of Portugal, in its present situation, might become independent of the over-ruling power of Europe,
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and would produce solid advantage to ourselves, by increasing the trade and commerce of Great Britain. If the power of France should succeed in her present schemes of aggrandisement, the destruction of Austria, and the subjugation of the peninsula, still it would be in our power to carry on the war with her, till a satisfactory peace could be obtained. It would be highly requisite to guard our possessions in the East. That expeditions were about to be sent out was certain, and it was not regular for him to put any question to his majesty's ministers, as to their destination; but if it were in contemplation to give further assistance to the Spaniards, and the Portuguese, he could not, although the noble secretary might rank him with one of the most extraordinary men in the kingdom, approve of such a disposal of our blood and treasure. No man more than himself lamented the fate of the peninsula; no man more admired the courage and exertion of every Spaniard who tried to regain the independence of his king and his country. But it would be recollected the king, for whom they fought, was now in the custody of the French emperor; and their own power was weak, while that of their enemy was mighty and formidable. The assistance which could be granted by this country was so inconsiderable in the scale, that it could produce no ultimate good to the cause of those we assisted; and he was apprehensive, in sending out generals and armies to that part of Europe, they would be in danger of sharing the fate of those who preceded them. The cause of Spain and of Portugal was that of an injured people, but it was that of a people comparatively weak fighting against a power of the greatest strength; and, however we might lament the contest on their side must eventually be unsuccessful, we ought not, in these times, to send out our men and money in the cause of other nations, where all our efforts must be in vain. We ought rather to guard ourselves against the overbearing power of the continent. No doubt could exist of a disposition on the part of the ruler of France to destroy this country, and after he had accomplished his designs on the continent, and could then find means, with thousands of his army, to invade our shores, and should be successful, he would not deal with this country as he had done with others, he would lay waste every thing before him, and scarcely leave one stone

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upon another; because he would be well aware he could not long keep this country under his subjection. The noble duke concluded by observing, that, as an individual, he had taken this opportunity of expressing his sentiments upon the subject of our giving assistance to the cause of Spain and Portugal.
The Earl of Buckinghamshirehad no intention of opposing the proposed Address, but he thought that on the late occasions when questions of such considerable importance had been brought under the consideration of the house, there was not sufficient elucidation given, as to the propriety of the measure. He did not concur with those sentiments expressed by the noble duke, and which breathed so much despondency as to the cause of Spain and Portugal; he trusted he could perceive grounds for entertaining better hopes. The noble Secretary had mentioned the former grant of 80,000 l. and he should wish to enquire if that sum had been granted by lord Strangford? He also wished to be informed as to the nature of the convention mentioned in his majesty's Message.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that at the time of the Portuguese emigration an advance of money had been made by lord Strangford, and the convention alluded to was one which had been agreed upon in this country, between his majesty's Secretary and the ambassador of his royal highness.
The Address was then agreed to unanimously.

MILITIA COMPLETION BILL.
Upon the order of the day being read, for the second reading of this bill,
The Earl of Liverpoolobserved, there would not be great occasion for his entering into a detail of the principle and provisions of the bill upon the table. The principle was the same with that of other acts of parliament which had passed for augmenting the militia. On account of the late volunteering of the militia into a more regular and disposable force, the regiments had been considerably diminished in their numbers, and it became necessary that those vacancies should be speedily supplied. In the regular course, this deficiency would have been supplied by ballot in the different counties; but as that mode in the present times might be considered rather hard upon that class, on whom the ballot would immediately fall, it had been thought advisable, by the present bill, to
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enable each regiment of militia to supply their deficiencies by enlistment for a limited time; and after that period, if it should turn out that this mode had not been successful, it would then be necessary to recur to the old and regular method of ballot. This provision would be attended with considerable advantage to those who would have been liable under the former militia acts, and would cast the burthen and expence more equally upon the public. The noble earl, after shortly explaining the nature of the bill, expressed himself as having no apprehension of its meeting with any objection from their lordships.
Earl Fitzwilliamsaid, he so far approved of the bill, as containing a provision, that in completing the deficiencies of the militia establishment, the burthen and expence were to be removed from the counties, and laid upon the public. But he expressed considerable regret, that the principle of the militia had in modern times been so much departed from, and that the militia regiments should have been made a recruiting, or perhaps, if he might use the expression, a crimping fund for the supply of the regular army. He did not particularly direct his observations to the bill before them, but it was with regret he saw the militia more and more altered from those principles upon which that force was first established.
Lord Harrowbydefended the measures which had been resorted to in regard to the militia establishment of the country. He was induced to express his sentiments upon the present occasion, because he conceived himself in justice bound to do so in opposition to the arguments urged from such a respectable authority as that of the noble earl who spoke. He considered the expression used by that noble earl as too severe and degrading; for whatever might be justly felt by those who took a pride in the discipline of their own regiments, they could have but one ultimate desire, that of forming them to be the most useful for their country. If, therefore, they rendered them fit for immediate service, and for entering a more regular and disposable force, their exertions ought to be more satisfactory to themselves, when these men volunteered into the regular army. For his own part, he had several years been a captain in the militia; and although not so high, or perhaps so interested in the service, as the noble lord opposite, he always felt a considerable par-

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tiality for that kind of force; yet be must say, the measures which had been resorted to for the supply of the regular array, did not incur his disapprobation without altering his former opinions on the subject. His lordship then took a view of the principle of the old militia acts, and shewed there was no alteration adopted in the present instance, which did not accord with the principle of past alterations.
The Marquis of Douglasconcurred in what had been stated by the noble earl (Fitzwilliam,) nor did he think the expression alluded to at all too severe. It correctly described the mode resorted to of recruiting the regular army out of the militia establishment of the country. Whatever consideration might be paid to the other species of force, so much supported by the sacrifice of the militia, he could wish the house to recollect, that perhaps the time was not far distant when we should stand most in need of an internal force adequate to resist the attack of an invading enemy. The disposable force of the country, so much attended to, might be employed in expeditions, when the country would at length, and that probably very soon, feel the great want of an effective and internal force for its own preservation.—Looking at the late achievements of our army abroad, he would have been as ready as any man to have praised the valour and courage displayed; but when he recollected the Convention, he felt too much as a Briton not to lament the purposes for which that army had been employed.
The Earl of Westmorelandcontended there was nothing objectionable in the provisions of modern times respecting the militia. If the old principle had been attended to, and the men had only served for three, four, or seven years, and at that period they had returned from the service, the noble lords would have found themselves without those men who had been so carefully taught their discipline. He trusted, out of that house they were more disposed to give assistance to the bill being carried into execution, and that their regiments would be the most forward; but if their language in that house were to be attended to, no such consequences could be expected. That army which had displayed its superiority on the Tagus, and which, afterwards, amidst the greatest difficulties, embarked with honour and glory, was composed of men chiefly taken from regiments of militia, and he was induced
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to approve of such a system as strengthened the most useful force of the country.
The Earl of Hardwickedeclined entering into those topics, which, in his opinion, had been irrelevantly introduced into the discussion on the merits of the present bill. But he would call the attention of the noble secretary to the preamble of the bill, where it was said the men should be raised by the beat of the drum. He conceived this a deviation from the principle of the militia, and from the principle of all former bills. He hoped he should be excused for troubling the house with any observation, as he had not been present at the commencement of this discussion.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, if the noble earl had been present, he would have heard his explanation of that part of the bill. His lordship here stated the purport of what he had before expressed on the reason of providing that the men might be raised by way of enlistment for a limited time. In reply to the arguments of other noble lords, he argued, that, without any interference, after a man had learned his duty as a soldier, be would naturally be disposed to continue his services by going into a superior force.
The Earl of Rosslynconsidered there was one objection to the present bill, which had not been mentioned in the course of the debate. It pretended to raise the men for the completion of the militia, by taking the burthen off from the counties, and laying it upon the public; this was a false pretence, for it would do no such thing. The bill provided the men might be raised by enlistment, at a bounty of twelve guineas, any time before June, 1810; and if the quota should not be raised before that period, it is then provided the ancient method of ballot should be resorted to; so that all deficiencies should be supplied before the October following. Of course it was well known there was 20 l. fine on the man ballotted, and 10 l. more was permitted by way of bounty; and if it should happen the substitute was not procured before October, there was an additional fine of 40 l. on the county, so that it must be evident the bounty after June would be from 30 l. to 70 l. a man; whereas before June it could be no more than twelve guineas. The consequence, from the nature of human reasoning, must be, every man would decline accepting the bounty for enlistment, knowing it would be much better for his interest to wait till this period should elapse. It was on this ground he

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felt particularly hostile to the bill, because it pretended to do that which his majesty's ministers must be convinced of themselves it could never effect.
The Earl of Selkirkobserved, that the most favourable point of view in which he saw the present measure, was from what had fallen from the noble earl who had just sat down, that it was not likely to effect what it pretended to do, the completion of the militia establishment. The present establishment was, in his mind, so radically wrong, that he had no desire to witness its completion.
The Bill was then read a second time.