Lords Sitting of 24 March 1809

PROGRESS OF PUBLIC BILLS.
Previous to entering upon the orders of the day,
Lord Aucklandcalled the attention of the house to a topic which lie deemed of considerable importance, viz. the hasty and rapid manner with which a number of Public Bills, some of them of great national I importance, were hurried through both houses of Parliament, particularly their lordship's house, so as to preclude the possibility of any thing like a deliberate and adequate discussion of the subject-matter of these acts. This he thought was a serious grievance, and to which some remedy should be applied. As an instance of the justness of this position, he stated, that within the last month no fewer than seventy five Bills, all of more or less public importance, had come up to their lordships from the house of Commons, where, from the nature of things, they could not receive the necessary degree of deliberate discussion. He had farther to remark, that important Public Bills were frequently sent up to that house from the other house, at periods of the session when it was impossible, either from the thin attendance of peers at those periods of the year, or from the very advanced period of the sessions, when in fact they were drawing to a close, to consider of and discuss those measures in that full and deliberate manner which their importance called for. He did not mean to impute blame to any noble lord, or particular individual; but he trusted that what he now
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suggested would induce noble lords to turn their attention to this point, and, as far as a remedy could be applied in such a case, to set seriously about it.
Lord Grenvillerose, and supported what had been advanced, as worthy the most serious attention of Parliament. He deprecated what he conceived to be the hasty and careless manner in which several bills, particularly of late, had been carried through the house of Commons; and referred to a case in the Votes of that house then lying on the table, where a most serious mistake had been made by one of the clerks in a Public Bill; and the ground on which he excused himself was, that he was not allowed sufficient time to read or go through the bills correctly. If such therefore was found to be an allowable excuse on the part of a clerk, how much more hurried and pressed for time to consider and discuss the respective measures, must have been the members of the legislature? The manner in which many bills had been hurried through that house also was what he must deprecate, as tending to deprive their lordships of their due weight and share in the exercise of the legislative functions, and as seeming to render that house little more than as a chamber to register the acts of the other. Of the practice of sending up bills from the house of commons so very late in the session as to preclude the possibility of adequate discussion, he must join his noble friend in reprehending. This was a grievance particularly to be complained of in the last session, when nearly one half of the important Public Bills passed during the whole, were sent up to that house during the last three weeks of the session.
The Earl of Liverpooldid not conceive it necessary at present, particularly as no question was regularly before the house, to enter into any detailed considerations of the topic to which the noble barons adverted. There evidently was of late years, in consequence of the unprecedented increase of the commerce, wealth, and internal prosperity of the empire, such an increase and accumulation of legislative acts and regulations, of more or less importance or necessity, as unavoidably to afford less time for the detailed consideration or discussion of each particular measure; and this was an unavoidable consequence. In the present session, their lordships would have to consider that the other house of parliament was engaged so closely, for an unexpectedly great

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length of time, in the discussion of a topic of a very different nature from those which ordinarily came under its consideration, so much so as to leave, comparatively, very little time for deliberation upon measures which it was necessary, from circumstances, should be adopted at an early period of the session. With respect to the accumulation of legislative acts, to which he had referred, it perhaps admitted of some degree of remedy, by merely adhering to the principle of generalization instead of particularization, and of avoiding to interpose legislatively, except in cases of commensurate necessity. This was a principle which he would wish to see more acted upon than it was of late years; and as to the inconveniences of which the noble lords complained, he agreed with them, they were such as called for as extensive a degree of remedy as was practicable, and for his own part he would willingly assist and co-operate with any noble lord in endeavouring to counterac the evil.
The Earl of Moiraapproved of the sentiments expressed by the noble Secretary of State, towards the close of his observations; he fully agreed with what was said by his noble friends near him on the subject of so serious a grievance; but he could not avoid remarking the silence of the noble lord as to the circumstance of such a large portion of the bills passed should have been suffered to take place in the last three weeks of the last session.
Lord Auckland,in explanation, enforced his former remarks. He agreed in much of what fell from the noble secretary of state, particularly as to the great increase of the wealth and commerce of the empire, a consideration which, perhaps, could not be better exemplified than in the circumstance, that in the year 1761 only twenty-nine public bills were passed; and in the last four weeks of the present session, no fewer than seventy-five bills passed the legislature. As noble lords seemed to coincide with him that something was proper to be attempted in the way of remedy, he would move for the appointment of a committee to inquire into the number of public and private Acts which have passed through both houses of parliament within a given period, and to report their opinions thereon to the house.
The Lord Chancellor,however he acknowledged the propriety of endeavouring to apply some remedy to the inconveniences complained of, begged the noble lords to recollect that it was of the most serious
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importance to consider what that remedy should be; and he trusted his noble friend would not press such a motion as he had notified, at present, but afford time to noble lords to consider more maturely upon the subject.
The Duke of Norfolksuggested, as one part of a remedy so much to be desired, that parliament should be assembled earlier in the winter, and not prorogued until near the end of January, which obliged it to keep sitting during some of the hot months of summer.
After some further conversation between the earl of Liverpool, lord Grenville, and lord Auckland, the latter consented not to press his intended motion at present.

SPANISH SQUADRON AT FERROL
Lord Aucklandrequested leave, before their lordships proceeded to the order of the day, to address a few observations to the house, and to submit a proposition which he deemed of great importance. He alluded to a part of the conduct of his majesty's ministers, respecting the recent warfare in Spain, which was at best highly questionable, but which, in his mind, called for the most serious and early explanation, viz. the great omission of not adopting measures to secure the numerous and powerful Spanish Squadron, comprising three three-deckers, and several large ships of the line, which was stationed at Ferrol, from falling into the hands of the enemy. This he thought was a circumstance easy to have been effected, when he considered the state of circumstances for a long interval in that part of the peninsula, and the long presence of a powerful British force. He did not mean, however, that this most important object was to be effected by force, but it might have been done by means of arrangement, and in a way in which the interests of the allied nations might both have been consulted. He did not mean at present to say any thing harsh respecting the affair of Copenhagen, whatever he thought of it; but according to the best information be could get, he had reason to think, notwithstanding the effects of that measure, that it might have been so arranged with the Spanish government, that the squadron alluded to might have been removed, by means of the British fleet, to a place of safety. Yet in all the documents he had read there was scarcely any reference to this object, which was of the most obvious importance, and. would have struck the commonest minds as an object necessary to

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be attended to. -In two letters from the Secretary of State lately, indeed, it was referred to; but these did not reach sir J. Moore till so late a period (somewhat advanced in December) that it was impossible he could think of any thing else than the preservation of his own army from destruction. This conduct demanded the most serious explanation from ministers, and in order to afford them the opportunity of vindicating themselves, and to bring the subject regularly on a future day before the house, he would move, "That there be laid before the house Copies, or Extracts of Instructions sent out to the officers commanding the British Naval and Military Forces, relative to the securing the Spanish squadron at Ferrol from falling into the hands of the Enemy."
Lord Mulgravesaid, that the topic to which the motion referred was one of equal delicacy and importance. He would not say that farther information officially might not be laid before the house on this subject, but he begged leave now to state, that his majesty's government were by no means unmindful of that important object; that the British admiral in command in that quarter had offered to take those ships under his protection; but it was represented to him by the Spanish commanders, that Ferrol was sufficiently strong to be able to resist the attacks of the enemy, and that the ships in question would be of essential service in enabling them to repel such attacks. Let noble lords for a moment consider our relative situation with the Spanish nation at the time, cooperating with them as friends and allies, and say, whether the alternative of force would have been justifiable on the part of the British?—and the more so, on an occasion in which the Spaniards thought their own best interests and immediate safety to be essentially concerned. He must add, that under the present relative circumstances of the two countries, such a discussion as the noble lord's motion would be injurious to the public service.
The Duke of Norfolkhad heard, with considerable alarm, the statement of the noble lord. The ships had been considered as essential to the defence of the place; and yet Ferrol had surrendered without resistance. By the same mode of argument, the fleet at Cadiz might also fall into the possession of the enemy. Surely, some means might have been found of removing the ships at Ferrol from the power of the
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enemy; they might have been sent half manned to Minorca, or any other place where they would have been out of his reach.—Whilst upon his legs, he wished to ask the noble Secretary of State, when it was likely the Treaty with the Spanish government would be laid before the house?
Lord Grenvillesaid, after the wish expressed by the noble lord, his noble friend would probably withdraw his motion, but he trusted his noble friend, on again making it, would enlarge it, so as to include all the communications which had taken place on this subject. He had heard with pain, the statement of the noble lord, and could not but think that there had been a great want of prudence and foresight in the conduct of ministers, in not having taken measures to secure the fleet at Ferrol from the grasp of the enemy. He did not mean to say, that they ought to have resorted to force and violence against an ally, but he thought they had been deficient in measures of friendship and conciliation, which would have produced a far different effect.
The Earl of Liverpoolhad always deprecated any attempt to obtain a partial object for our own advantage, in the assistance given to Spain. It had constantly been the policy of his majesty's ministers to give a disinterested support to the Spanish cause, from which, ultimately, the greater advantage would arise, and from which, already many advantages had flowed. He was glad to hear the noble lord (Grenville) say, that force and violence ought not to have been resorted to, and he trusted the noble baron was prepared to go further and to say, that neither threat nor menace ought to have been adopted towards our ally.—With respect to the question of the noble duke, he expected to have his majesty's commands to lay the Treaty with the Spanish government before the house on Monday.
The Earl of Buckinghamshirewas disposed to agree with the noble earl, that neither force nor violence, nor threat, nor menace, ought to have been used; but deeply lamented, that after the statement made With respect to the ships being essential to the defence of Ferrol, that that place should have surrendered without resistance.
Lord Aucklandagreed to withdraw his motion for the present, in consequence of what had been said by the noble lord; but he would not believe that such could have been the conduct of the Spaniards, until the documents were before the house,

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It was acknowledged that the means existed of removing the fleet, and the 32nd French bulletin confessed that the inhabitants of Ferrol were all English at heart. There was therefore a concurrence of circumstances to prove, that the fleet might have been rescued from the grasp of the enemy.
Earl Greyobserved, that a heavy responsibility rested upon ministers with respect to the Spanish navy. They had suffered the fleet at Ferrol to fall into the hands of the enemy, and if the plea they had set up was to be allowed, with what hope could they look to the other ports of Spain? It was not only at Cadiz, as stated by a noble duke, that there was a Spanish fleet, but there was also at Carthagena a considerable squadron, which had lately arrived there from Minorca, and the responsibility rested with Ministers, that these fleets should not be converted by the enemy into instruments of hostility against this country.
Some further conversation ensued with respect to bringing forward the motion on a future day, but lord Auckland declined fixing a day, and rather wished that ministers would look into the documents relating to the subject, and lay on the table such of them as could be made public without detriment to the public service.

CAMPAIGN IN SPAIN.
The Earl of Darnleyrose to move for several additional Papers respecting the campaign in Spain. His lordship read several motions, the first of which was, for the production of the Letters of Mr. Frere and Mr. Stuart to Sir John Moore and Sir David Baird, which, he understood, would not be objected to. The others were for the production of several Dispatches from Mr. Secretary Canning to Mr. Frere, a Dispatch from sir John Moore, dated the 13th of January last, a Letter from general Brodrick, which he considered to be important to the discussion of the Spanish question, as it related to the deficiency of cavalry in Spain, a deficiency the more inexcusable, as we had a force of twenty one thousand cavalry, eighteen thousand of which might have been spared for the assistance of Spain. Also the dispatch from lord Castlereagh to sir Hew Dalrymple, dated the 4th September, with the in-closures, and the instructions to Sir Hew Dalrymple, with respect to the formation of the Regency in Portugal, both which had before been moved for and refused, but which he still thought essential to the discussion of the general question. He did
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not wish to anticipate that discussion; but he could not but think, from a perusal of the papers before the house, that the blame of our failures in Spain must rest with his Majesty's ministers.
The Earl of Liverpooladverted to the grounds on which he had before objected to the production of Mr. Frere's letters, they never having been officially transmitted by sir John Moore. That this was not done might easily be accounted for, by the multiplicity of business which pressed upon that gallant officer. He admitted that the letters were in the possession of a member of his majesty's government; but still the objection remained, that they were not strictly official. He had also objected that they had no operation upon the march of the army in Spain. He understood, however, that persons nearly connected with sir John Moore, were extremely anxious for their production, and he would not now oppose their being laid before the house. With respect to the letters of Mr. Stuart, they were not in the possession of his majesty's government. To the production of one of the dispatches from Mr. Secretary Canning, alluded to in a dispatch from lord Castlereagh of the 13th December, he objected, as it referred prospectively to future circumstances, and could not, without detriment to the public service, be produced. With respect to the dispatch from sir John Moore, dated the 13th January, it required consideration, whether it was expedient to produce it. To the other motions he had no objection, with the exception of the two, which had before been refused, and to which he must still object, as the publication of them would be detrimental to the public service. The letter from general Brodrick he had no objection to produce, and upon this point, with respect to the cavalry, he would take occasion to say, that it would be found when the question came to be discussed, that there was no objection made against the conduct of Ministers less founded or more futile, than that of the deficiency of cavalry.
The Earl of Rosslynproposed a motion for some further papers respecting communications between Mr. Frere and the President of Spain.
Lord Grenvillethought it necessary to take notice of an observation made by the noble Secretary of State, imputing blame to sir John Moore for not transmitting the letters of Mr. Frere.
The Earl of Liverpoolapologized for in-

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terrupting the noble lord, but thought it incumbent on him to state, that he did not intend to impute blame to sir John Moore. All he meant to state was, that in the regular official course of business, the Letters were to have been transmitted either by sir John Moore or Mr. Frere. That they were not transmitted by sir John Moore might be accounted for, by the multiplicity of business in which he was engaged, and from his not being in the habit of that species of official communication.
Lord Grenvillecould not allow that the not sending these letters should be in any manner charged upon the distinguished officer now no more. It was the duly of his majesty's minister at Madrid, to transmit officially to the Secretary of State the Letters which he had officially written to sir John Moore. He did not mean to impute blame to Mr. Frere for not transmitting the letters, but if there was any blame it ought to attach to the living minister, and not to the memory of the illustrious commander whom we had unfortunately lost.
The first motion for Mr. Frere's Letters was agreed to. On the second motion, for the Letter from lord Castlereagh to sir Hew Dalrymple, of the 4th of September, with the inclosures, a short conversation arose, in which lord Sidmouth adverted to what had been said when the motion was formerly made, and earl Grey thought that it was incumbent on ministers to state some more precise ground of objection to the production of these Papers than that of its being detrimental to the public service.
The Earl of Liverpoolstated in reply, that the inclosures to which the motion referred, were the observations of the Portuguese Minister upon the conclusion of the Armistice. His majesty's government had thought it expedient to transmit them to sir Hew Dalrymple, and it was upon the impropriety of making public the representation of the Portuguese minister, that he felt a compliance with the noble earl's motion injurious to the public service.
Earl Greycontended, that if the objection of his majesty's government only extended to the enclosures, he trusted for the acquiescence of his majesty's ministers, in the amendment which he should propose for the production of either a copy or extract of the letter of lord Castlereagh of the 4th of September, without the inclosures.
The Earl of Liverpoolanswered, that the original letter, without the inclosures, could not afford the noble earl the infor-
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mation he sought. It only went to prove, what his majesty's ministers were ready to allow, that on the intimation that the Armistice was concluded, they were much dissatisfied with that measure.
The Earl of Buckinghamshirecould not reconcile the dissatisfaction, which the noble earl stated to have been felt by ministers, with the demonstration of public reconcile which took place when the first account of the Armistice was received. At all events, he thought it but justice to Sir flew Dalrymple that the dispatch of the 4th should be laid before the house.
Lord Grenvillecould not conceive how any man, even in the wildest stretch of imagination, could fancy that there was any possibility of danger to his majesty's service, from a compliance with the limited and qualified amendment of his noble friend.
The Earl of Liverpoolobserved, that it was the usage to resort to public rejoicings, when the country of an ally was evacuated by the enemy, in consequence of the operations of British Troops. In accordance with that usage, the Tower gnus were fired on the communication of the Convention of Cintra being concluded. It did not, however, follow, that therefore his majesty's government had approved of all the Articles of that measure. He did believe that it was usual to order similar demonstrations of public rejoicings, when an Island belonging to the enemy was taken possession 'of by British Troops, although very strong objections were entertained by government at home, with respect to the specific provisions of that capitulation.
The question was then put upon the amendment of earl Grey, and strangers were ordered to withdraw preparatory to a division; but the motions were negatived without a division.