HL Deb 02 June 1809 vol 14 cc853-8
Lord Viscount Sidmouth

rose to move for an Account of the Number of Licences issued within a certain period, under the act of 1 W. & M. c. 18. commonly called the Toleration Act, and of the 19 G. 3. c. 44, entitled, "An Act for the further relief of Protestant Dissenting' Ministers and Schoolmasters." It appeared, he said, to be highly desirable and important, that the information which it was the object of his motion to procure, should be possessed by parliament and the public. He had no reason to doubt, that a large majority of those, who had obtained licences under these Acts, had applied for them from motives the most strictly conscientious: as little could he doubt, that the wise and liberal policy, by which these acts were dictated, had, in numerous instances, been grossly abused. That such was the fact was well known to magistrates, who were in the habit of attending quarter sessions of the peace in the several counties of England and Wales.—Under these acts, it was competent to any person calling himself a protestant dissenter, of whatever age, or condition, however ignorant, however exceptionable in conduct, and character, by taking the oaths, and making the declarations thereby required, to qualify himself as it was termed, to present any doctrines he pleased, and thus to obtain an exemption from all parochial offices, and from serving on juries, or in the militia. Thus was a strong incentive afforded to schism, and in proportion to its success, an increased buthen thrown upon the members of the established church. He desired, however, to be understood as applying his complaint on this point solely to immunities claimant by self-appointed preachers and teachers, not attached to any dissenting congregations; or by those who, being in the ministry, were also engaged in secular occupations and callings. Persons duly appointed and devoting themselves to the performance of their spiritual duties, ought in his opinion, to enjoy the same immunities as those who had received episcopal ordination,—As to the description of persons, to whom licences ought to be granted (for they were now claimable as of right,) it was a point of extreme delicacy, and importance, concerning which he should be averse to any regulations, but such as all sober minded, and rational dissenters must approve. He could not however, but presume that every individual of that description must be desirous that the doctrines, which he believed should not be publicly preached by persons wholly destitute of ordinary attainments; by persons not arrived at that period of life, previous to which Deacon's orders could not be conferred, or of whose moral characters and conduct satisfactory attestations had not been adduced. It was also highly desireable, (and surely it would not be deemed unreasonable, or improper to require,) that persons claiming Licences to preach should state, if not the grounds of their, dissent, the denomination, at least, of Dissenters to which they professed to belong; that they should be recommended by the religious society of which they were members; that they should be attached to a known and distinct place of public worship; and that they should not be at liberty to officiate habitually elsewhere without afresh Licence.—Whether these or any other regulations should be adopted, it would be for the wisdom of their lordships, and of the other house of parliament, to determine: but it appeared to be due to that profession of faith, concerning the fundamental doctrines of which we were all agreed, that no subordinate differences of opinion should allow us to be regardless of the qualifications and characters of those by whom religious instruction was to be conveyed. With respect to the tenets of the various sects of Dissenters, we had, indeed, no right to interfere: but to endeavour that, be they what they may, they should not be preached and taught by the grossly ignorant and the profligate, was surely no infringement on the sound principles of an enlightened toleration. That the number of persons who frequent meeting houses, and conventicles had, within the last few years, considerably increased, could not be denied: but it was not to be supposed that the number of dissenters had increased in the same proportion. He believed the fact to be, that the awful occurrences of the last twenty years had created a more general sense of the truths, and importance of religion than was previously entertained; and that whilst these impressions were spreading, and the population of the country rapidly increasing, the number of places of worship under the established church, of clergymen engaged in the performance of parochial duties, remained nearly the same. Many persons were therefore induced to prefer an attendance in conventicles, and meeting houses, to a neglect of public worship altogether. By an Address to his majesty with a view to the improvement of small Benefices, to which their lordship's had unanimously agreed on the preceeding day, a step had been taken, which amongst its other advantages tended to obviate one of the causes of apparent separation from the church; inasmuch as the inducement to unite many small livings for the purpose of affording a decent subsistence, would be weakened, as the actual value of each was materially improved; and thus whilst the number of pluralists was diminished, that of the resident efficient clergy would be increased. But the great and most effectual check to the progress of Schism, as proceeding from the causes to which he had adverted, must be derived from an augmentation of the number of churches properly endowed, to which all persons should have access. Proprietary chapels would in no degree answer the purpose, unless it were enacted, as he thought it ought to be, by the authority of parliament, that for a certain proportion of the Aiea of places of public worship to be consecrated in future, no pew rent should be taken. He was however of opinion that the charge of providing additional places of worship, where an increased population appeared to require them, ought in part to be defrayed by local contributions, and not be thrown exclusively on the public. To these objects, he trusted that the attention of government, and of parliament would be speedily and earnestly directed: it was a duty of primary, indispensable, and urgent importance; the performance of which could not but be intimately connected with our welfare, and even with the stability of our existence as a nation; for whatever might be our apparent prosperity, however extensive, lofty, and splendid the edifice of our power, it would be insecure, and transitory, unless founded on the basis of an established religion, firmly and zealously upheld and protected by the supreme authority of the state. Whether, if his motion should be agreed to, he should submit any measure to their lordships in the ensuing session, was matter of future consideration. It would be far more satisfactory to him to see this subject in other, and abler hands. He had however discharged what he thought a duty in endeavouring to draw their attention to it, and from the manner in which they had been pleased to receive what he had said, he was willing to hope that in that respect he had not been disappointed.—His lordship then moved, "That, there be laid before this house an account of the number of Licences issued in each year at the general quarter sessions of the peace, in the several counties of England and Wales, and at the Registry in each diocese, from the commencement of the year 1780 to the end of the year 1808 under the Act 1 W. and M. commonly called the Toleration Act, and the 19 G. 3. c. 44, entitled an Act for the further Relief of Protestant Dissenting Ministers, and Schoolmasters."

Lord Harrowby

thought that it was not by any restrictive measure that any great and desirable object could be accomplished. He particularly recommended to their lordships' consideration the small number of churches of the established worship compared to what was required. The people were desirous of procuring religious instruction; and if they could not find it in the establishment, they were obliged to seek it elsewhere, in very many cases, while they would more readily receive it from the church of England. With this fact he was certain many of their lordships must be well acquainted. Give the church its fair and just opportunities, and he had not the slightest reason to imagine any danger to the establishment. The general superiority of education, the justly acquired influence, and the moral habits of the established clergy would, he was convinced, in that case, ensure those moral and religious advantages, that were so much desired by all who had at heart the welfare and happiness of the community at large. His lordship would propose an Amendment which would shew the progressive increase of Dissenters, or persons preaching and teaching, not being of the established church, more fully by going back towards the commencement of his majesty's reign. He therefore moved the yearly returns should commence from the year 1700 instead of 1780.

The Archbishop of Canterbury

said, that the fact of the great increase of sectaries and dissenters from the established church of England, was one which was so clear that no man could doubt it. His grace supported the motion and the amendment, and expressed his approbation of the measure proposed on the evening preceding. The fact was, that our population had, particularly in some large towns, far exceeded the machinery by which the beneficial effects of our church establishment could be universally communicated. He did not wish to interfere in the smallest degree with the wise and just system of toleration, and though he lamented the present deficiency of means on the part of the establishment, he was not friendly to measures of restriction; so far from that, under the present circumstances, he should be sorry to see any such measures resorted to. But ha trusted their lordships would consider the real state and number of the parochial places of worship in the country under the establishment. His grace begged, however, to state, that with respect to the Licences alluded to, the bishops had no power whatever.

Earl Grosvenor

concurred in most of what had fallen from the preceding speakers. His lordship thought the matter of the highest consequence. He held in his hand a printed letter to the late archbishop of Canterbury, calling upon his grace's interference; and stating, out of not a large number of persons receiving Licences, that seven or eight of them spelt the word "Gospel" differently; and as many others made their mark, instead of signing their names, on paying their shilling for a licence under the Toleration Act.

The Lord Chancellor

expressed his desire to see every thing done that could be done in favour of the established church, and hoped that something might be done to prevent those abuses that wire practised on the Toleration Act, by which men who never intended to preach or teach took advantage of that liberal enactment, to avoid that civil or military service which no conscientious or religious person would take such means to avoid.

The motion was then put and carried, nem dis.