Lords Sitting of 28 February 1809

SHEE COMMITTED TO NEWGATE.
Mr. Bankesmoved, that in consequence of the

1135
voluntary surrender of John Annesley Shee, the order which was yesterday made, for an Address to his majesty, respecting his apprehension; be now discharged. Agreed to. He then put the following Resolutions, which were also carried.—"1. That J. A. Shee, in consequence of his gross prevarication before the East India Committee, be committed to his majesty's gaol of Newgate.—2. That the keeper of the said prison do, to-morrow, and from time to time during the term of the said Shee's confinement, bring him before the said Committee in order to answer such questions as the Committee may think necessary to put to him."

WIDOWS OF NAVY OFFICERS' PENSION BILL.
Mr. W. Wellesley Polemoved for leave to bring in a bill for the more convenient payment of the annuities and other allowances to the Widows of Naval and Marine Officers, and those on the Compassionate List. About the year 1732 a fund was established, by the government of that day, for the relief of the widows of the officers of the navy, towards which it was deemed expedient to levy a deduction of 3d. in the pound, upon the pay of all commissioned and warrant officers, and also to establish an allowance from all ships in the service, under the denomination of widow's men, i. e. the pay of one man out of every 100 men in each ship's company, was to be appropriated in aid of the said fund. After some years had elapsed, this was found insufficient, and the pay of an additional widow's man was added. In this way the fund had proceeded up to the present time, but occasionally it had been found inadequate of later years: however, it had considerably increased; so that the fund was now rich, having a stock of 170,000 l. in the 3 per cents, and the number of widows relieved from it in the last year was no less than 1,800. The rates of allowance began with 80 l. a year to captains' widows, and descended in proportionate gradation to those of warrant officers. But it had been found, in the management of this fund, that great inconvenience and distress had arisen, in consequence of the widows being obliged to apply annually in London for their allowance. One of the objects of his bill, therefore, was to enable the court of assistants to pay them quarterly at then-own houses, wherever resident, in the same manner as was settled for the more convenient payment of the widows of military officers, by a bill passed about two years
1136
since. He had much conversation with the person who managed this business at the war-office, and found there would be no difficulty in assimilating the disposal of the naval fund. It would be desirable also to extend this mode of relief to others who were objects of the charity, though not exactly in the same way. The board of admiralty had addressed his majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to order, that the donations to persons upon the compassionate fund, should, in like manner, be paid quarterly to those appointed to receive them, at their own houses. His majesty was pleased to approve of this; and it was another purpose of his bill to enable the board of admiralty to select such objects as were properly entitled to aid from the compassionate fund: to allow them such sums as they should think fit; and transmit their allowance quarterly. These sums to be charged yearly in the ordinary estimates of the navy.—It, was also intended to transmit the half-pay of marine officers to them in the same manner as to those of the army, and therefore the bill would enable them to receive it at their houses. He thought it fair at the same time that he proposed to include the allowances of the compassionate list in the annual estimates of the navy, that he should abolish the allowance called indoors men, which were now regularly charged in the accounts of every vessel in the service. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in the Bill; which was accordingly given.

CALL OF THE HOUSE.
Lord Folkestone,pursuant to notice, rose to move that the house be called over on Wednesday the 8th of March. The question to come before the house that day was of the utmost importance, and therefore he conceived that the fullest possible attendance of members was necessary. With that view, and with that only it was, that he should now move for a call of the house on that day.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he should not have thought it necessary to make such a motion, when he considered the manner in which the house had been attended during the whole of the time when the important subject alluded to by the noble lord was under investigation; and therefore he had no doubt of a full attendance upon the day appointed for taking that most important subject again into consideration. The

1137
question, as the noble lord had justly observed, was one of the utmost importance, and it was his own wish that in all its parts it should meet the most grave and solemn consideration before the fullest possible attendance of members. He therefore, abstained from any resistance to the motion, feeling as he did, that however unnecessary he might conceive it to be, yet any opposition to it on his part would be subject to animadversions not of the most liberal nature. But in giving his assent to the motion, he trusted that the question of that day would not be further delayed. The motion might have the effect of securing the attendance of all members in town, or within a short distance. But it could not be expected that in so short a notice as eight or ten days, any thing like an effectual call of the house could be had. But it was not because the call could not operate to its fullest extent that it was not therefore to be adopted.
Lord Folkestoneassured the right hon. gent, that he had no intention of further postponing the business, neither was any such intention entertained by his hon. friend (Mr. Wardle).
Mr. Bathurstthought the call of the house equally unnecessary and improper. He should think it quite impossible that in so short a period as eight days, it would have any effect in bringing gentlemen from the remotest corners of the united kingdom. It would be merely a call in name, and not in effect. From the full attendance of members during the whole of the inquiry, there could be no doubt of a full attendance on the night of discussion; and although a tolerable opinion of a subject might be formed on written evidence, yet perhaps it was going too far to call on members coming from a distance, who would not have time to examine and consider the printed evidence, after their arrival in town, in order to form their opinions to decide upon so solemn a subject perhaps the day after.
Mr. C. Adamsapproved of the motion for a call of the house, and thought, that although it could not be expected to procure the attendance of members from Scotland and Ireland, yet if it only obtained that of half a dozen additional members, upon such an occasion, even that would be of some importance.
General Gascoynealso thought the call could not be effectual. It appeared to him that to attempt enforcing this call at
1138
so short a notice, would be an abuse of the power of the house, and tend to defeat its authority on future occasions. Members at a distance would suppose it a serious call, and no doubt expect that they would be allowed a subsequent day to offer their excuses; so that the object of the present call would be defeated.
Lord Folkestonesaid he felt the call could. I not be so effective as was desirable, upon so short a notice; and was himself very sorry it had not occurred to him to move for it at an earlier day. He hoped, however, the house, in justice to its authority, would enforce the call for the 8th of March; for however it might be afterwards disposed to excuse those members who could shew reasonable cause for their non-attendance then, he could hardly suppose that some question would not arise out of the proceedings of that day of the utmost moment, which would, at an early subsequent day, call for solemn decision, and consequently render necessary the fullest possible attendance of members.
Mr. Bankesthought that a call of the house, on so short a notice, was unprecedented. It was something so preposterous, that when he heard of the noble lord's avowed intention, he thought it quite impossible that he could be serious. The attendance of the house already upon this subject had been remarkably full; they had divided more than a majority of the whole house, and he did not think that at the present season, and at so short a notice, there was any chance of a further attendance. Besides, he would ask, was it a desirable thing that members who had never heard a word of the evidence in this case, should be called on to decide upon the question, who perhaps would not arrive till the day before, and could not have time to read or consider the written evidence? There were many members who did not wish to interfere in this question. Was it desirable to bring such men from the remotest corners of Ireland or Scotland? And, besides, though the house had authority to enforce their attendance at a call on that day, it had no authority afterwards to prevent their going out again, or to force them to vote, he was decidedly opposed to the call, and should take the sense of the house upon it.
Sir J. Newportsaid, that the hon. member who had all of a sudden shewn so much tenderness towards the members from Ireland, and reluctance to inconvenience them, had asserted that a call at so

1139
short a notice was unprecedented. He would beg leave, however, to refer him to the Journals, so recently as the 11th of last February, where there was an order that the house be called over on the following day.
Mr. Bankesanswered, that this was in the case of a ballot for an election committee, where the call was pending de die in diem.
Lord Folkestoneinstanced another case en the Journals during the discussion of the Slave trade in 1791, where there was a call of the house at eight days notice.
The question was now put on lord Folkestone's motion, when the house divided,

Ayes

102

Noes

15

Majority for the Call

87

DUKE OF YORK'S LETTER TO THE SPEAKER.
Mr. C. Wynnstated, that in consequence of what had passed in the house on Friday last, he thought the subject which had been then alluded to was of a nature that required that parliament should express its opinion upon it. He rather wished that the business should have been taken up by some member of greater experience. He, however, felt so strongly convinced of the necessity of some Resolution, that he should, without losing any time, give notice, that it was his intention to move a Resolution, "That it was consistent with the duty and privileges of that house, to come to a determination on Evidence examined at their bar, without submitting the case to any other tribunal." Although this question had no necessary bearing upon the subject which was to be discussed next week, yet as it might have a collateral and indirect bearing, he wished to defer moving that Resolution, until the house should come to a decision on the question. He hoped the great importance of the subject would excuse him to the house, for giving this notice in a more detailed form than was usual.
The Speakerasked the hon. member what day he chose the notice to stand for.
Mr. Wynnreplied for Monday se'nnight.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought, that it would be a fairer way to have this Resolution brought forward before the discussion, in order that the matter might be put at rest, and that there might not be a suspicion suspended over the head of his royal highness that, in writing that letter,
1140
he had acted contrary to the privileges of that house. Although he did not wish to multiply discussions upon this subject, yet he was persuaded that this was a matter which could be easily explained.
Mr. Bathurstagreed perfectly with what had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If there had been any violation of the privileges of that house, the common course was, that complaints of breach of privilege took precedence of all other discussions. When the consideration and rank of the party accused were taken into the account, he thought, however, a great deal of latitude and indulgence should be allowed. For these reasons, as well as those which had been stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—
The Speakerhere interfered, and stated, that it was contrary to the usage of the house to enter into any discussion on notices given. There was, perhaps, some little irregularity in introducing a notice with observations, but there never could be discussion upon a mere notice of a motion to be made on a future day.
The motion was then fixed for Monday se'nnight.

SICILY.
Mr. Sec. Canningrose to make some observations on what had fallen on a former night, from an hon. member (Mr. W. Smith), whom he was sorry not to see then in his place, upon a subject that it would have been his duty to have answered him on that slight, if he had then been in the house. Fie could not help saying, that the topic alluded to was one of those that ought not upon light grounds to be stated to the house. Although it was supposed that nothing was repeated that passed in that house, yet the fact was well known, that what was stated in that house was not only read in this but hi other countries, and the common enemy could derive great advantage from any thing which Could tend to make jealousies between his majesty and his allies. The statement of the hon. member was, as he was informed, that the Sicilian government and nation were in such a state that it was our duty to propose something of political regeneration to them. He could assure the house, that there existed the most cordial good understanding and co-operation between the government of this country and the Sicilian government, as also between the armies of the two countries. Our officers regulated almost all their military operations, and it was understood that if

1141
there was any attack, the British commander in chief should have also under his command the Sicilian army, which was very respectable in point of numbers. This was a mark of confidence which few other foreign nations ever reposed in us. He therefore thought it might be of dangerous consequences for our allies to hear themselves in a manner reviled in the British parliament. He was sure that the hon. member could not have been perfectly aware of the mischief which such a statement might have produced, or he would not have mentioned the matter publicly in that house.