Lords Sitting of 7 February 1809

CONDUCT OF THE DIKE OF YORK.
The Duke of Kentwas disposed to present himself to the attention of the house, but without any wish to occupy much of their lordships time. He felt sensible of acting with some degree of irregularity; but he did not know that any opportunity more convenient would be afforded him of declaring his sentiments upon a subject of considerable importance. From the Votes which appeared on their lordships table, he was authorised to advert to a question now under the consideration of the other house of legislature: and he had heard, and he believed, that certain insinuations had gone abroad, whereby the public were led to suppose dissension now existed between himself and his royal brother, whose Conduct was under inquiry. Whatever credit had been given to such reports, they were unfounded and untrue; and he was happy in making the declaration, that no professional dispute had been entertained, nor did there exist any such schism as had been alluded to in the royal family. So far was he from thinking that there was any thing improper in the conduct of his royal brother, he was fully persuaded that all the Charges made against him were false, and would be proved to be without foundation.

STATE OF THE NATION.
The order of the day for summoning their lordships having been read,
Earl Grosvenorsaid, that he rose for the purpose of submitting to their lordships the motion of which he had given notice some days ago. After the recommendation in the Speech, at the opening of the session; after the repeated declarations of ministers, that they were willing every part of their conduct should undergo the strictest investigation, he could not have expected that the smallest objection would be made to the motion he intended to make. Rumours, however, had reached his ears since he came down, that it was intended to oppose it. If it should appear that ministers had disappointed the hopes and expectations of the nation, it was his intention to follow up his motion by an Address to remove them. The important, or rather the calamitous, events that had recently occurred—the portentous stale of all Europe—must have made a deep impression on the minds of their lordships. If it should appear that these calamities were principally owing to ministers having misemployed the resources of the nation, there could be no difference of opinion as to the necessity of immediately placing

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the guidance of the national concerns in abler hands.—Before he went into the consideration of the last campaign, he was anxious to direct their attention to some other subjects. It was now upwards of twenty years since the revolution broke out in France, and in the course of that time the consequences of it had been felt by every nation in Europe. This nation, in consequence of that revolution, had now suffered for 17 years, with the intermission of only a few months, the calamities of war. The question was not whether peace with France, as France now was, would be a benefit. For himself he entertained no hope of peace as long as the hostile mind existed in the ruler of that country. What advantage had been derived from the last peace? Was it not a peace of distrust, of suspicion, of expence? Was there any thing desirable in a peace of that description? No: we must make up our minds to a long and arduous struggle. In any peace that we should make with France, constituted as she at present was, all her energy would be directed in the interval to prepare the means of new hostility, to sap the foundation of our commerce, and to diminish our revenue and our maritime preponderance; both of which were the result of that commerce. The system of France was regular and undeviating. The vast power she had acquired within these few years, was as much owing to her political dexterity as the victories she had obtained. The way for her triumphs was prepared by the total overthrow of the moral and political feelings of the countries whose subjugation she meditated. See what influence Buonaparté had acquired over the Emperor of Russia—how he had induced him to view with complacency acts from which a liberal mind would have shrunk back with horror—how he had induced him to sign the Letter which was lately laid on their lordships table! The calamities of Europe were ascribed in that letter to the stagnation of maritime commerce. Was it to the stagnation of maritime commerce that the overthrow of the Germanic empire, the incorporation of Italy, the subjugation of Switzerland, the overthrow of the independence of Holland, the war between Sweden and Russia, the distracted state of the Ottoman Empire, and the atrocious attack on Spain, were to be attributed? Was it to these, or to the insatiable ambition of every government which had been in France since the commence-
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ment of the revolution? Though it was not perfectly regular to allude in that house to what had passed in another place, he could not refrain from taking notice of something that had lately occurred. It was slated, that a conspiracy existed to write down every thing that was noble or illustrious in the country. He was not quite persuaded that such a conspiracy existed, but it was impossible for him to shut his eyes to the licentious and petulant paragraphs of which the press could furnish daily examples. In one of these, a noble friend of his (lord Grenville) was stigmatized on account of some expressions that fell from him in that house in the course of debate, as an abettor of the system of Buonaparté. He lamented that such a blessing as a free press should produce such evils; but if the existing laws were not adequate to repress or correct them, it was high time that the legislature should interpose.—He would now make a few observations on the Campaign in Spain, as that was a principal motive for inducing him to submit his motion to their lordships. Ministers from the beginning appeared to have made up their minds as to the kind of warfare they were disposed to wage. They anticipated triumph, victory, glory. They declared in the Speech at the conclusion of the session, that in the assistance they intended to give, they would be solely guided by the wishes of the Spanish nation. After having disappointed the expectations of Sweden; after having, by promises of assistance, induced his Swedish majesty to suspend the efforts which he would otherwise have made, they recalled the troops that had been sent to co-operate with him, and to this clay there was no explanation of any misunderstanding that produced this vacillation in their councils. Before they sent out their expedition, why was it not understood that troops were to be placed under the immediate command of the king of Sweden? The same misconduct was visible in the naval campaign in the Baltic. We had 12 sail of the line in that sea, and yet only two of these were found, at a most critical moment, acting with the Swedish fleet. The number of frigates in that sea was very deficient; and it was in a great measure owing to that deficiency, that the Russian fleet was able to come out and return with so little loss to their ports.—His lordship next adverted to the conduct of the Campaign in Spain. Never, said he, was there an occasion in which the people of this

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country were so willing to second the views of ministers. The whole nation entertained but one sentiment on the subject, and that was, that the cause of Spain should succeed. The general expression was, that every exertion should be made to assist a great nation struggling for its independence. What was the conduct of ministers? Must they not have been aware that failure would have led to the greatest exultation on the part of the ruler of France? Instead, therefore, of driving the French out of Portugal, they should have assisted the Spaniards to drive the French out of Spain. Ministers, however, pursued a different course. With respect to the points of the Armistice and Convention, they had been so fully considered before, that he should not now allude to them: he must, however, express his disapprobation of the Answer returned to the Address from the citizens of London, as well as the institution of the Board of Inquiry. No satisfactory result could have been expected from it. He also must condemn the recommendation, or the order rather, contained in the Letter from the noble lord at the head of the war department to sir Hew Dalrymple. It would have been a more manly proceeding to have placed sir A. Wellesley at once at the head of the army in Portugal, than to enjoin that he should be consulted on every occasion. Why did not ministers follow the example of lord Spencer, who sent lord Nelson to Egypt, to the prejudice of a senior officer, and by that judicious appointment enabled us to gain the glorious victory of the Nile. An opinion prevailed, that it would have been more consistent with policy to have sent the army to the south of Spain, in the first instance. Ministers, however, adopted another plan. The Convention of Cintra was signed on the 30th of August; and yet, notwithstanding the critical situation of affairs in Spain, and the urgency of giving the most prompt assistance to the people of that country, not a single British soldier marched from Portugal until the beginning of October. When they did send an army into Spain, though they had transports enough in the Tagus to have conveyed them in a few days to Gallicia, or Asturias, they sent them by land. It seemed, throughout the whole of this ill-fated expedition, as if the evil genius of England directed every instruction and impulse that was given to that army. After a pause of some weeks, it made a movement
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in advance. Again it made a second movement. We might have derived some consolation for the calamitous consequences that resulted from these ill-advised operations, if our armies had marched into the country to make a noble stand; but, instead of this, they marched into the heart of Spain, with the moral certainty of being obliged to retreat. The result of that retreat was fresh in their lordships' recollection. The army lost 4,000 horses, the best that could be provided for the species of service to which they were destined; ammunition to an enormous amount was destroyed; some of the finest artillery in Europe was spiked, the army at the time so dissatisfied as to be nearly in a state of mutiny; officers marching without shoes or stockings, and some of them, the most promising in the service, (he alluded to gen. Anstruther) falling the victim of mental anguish and excessive fatigue. Having reached the ultimate point of retreat, they were detained five days waiting for transports, which, by arriving sooner, would have prevented all the blood that was shed in the gallant action before Corunna. Was it necessary that all these sacrifices should have been made to prove the valorous spirit of Englishmen?—The noble earl next adverted to the treaty with the Junta, and asked when ministers expected it would arrive, or whether it would arrive at all? He trusted they would have no objection to communicate the substance of that treaty, and that they would take care to secure the fleets of Spain, or at least take care that those of France should not again come into the possession of the ruler of France. He was one of those who hoped the affairs of Spain were not desperate; but he was persuaded, that their success must depend rather on the exertions of Spain, than on any assistance we could send her.—In the present situation of the country, the want of a responsible minister was most deeply felt. He did not mean to make any personal attack upon the noble duke at the head of the Treasury; but it was evident that he was not the efficient' and responsible minister of the country. Noble lords on the other side might say that they were responsible ministers; but it was impossible that 11 or 12 could be punished—there must be one minister responsible to the country for the acts of his administration. Upon all these grounds, and others connected with the situation of the country, and the events of the last six months, the noble

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earl contended, that an inquiry was absolutely necessary, and concluded by moving, "That this house do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole house, to take into consideration the State of the Nation."
The Duke of Montrosethought the noble earl had not been correctly informed upon many of the topics on which he had spoken: to go through the whole of them, in the manner proposed by the noble earl, would take up at least two sessions. The noble earl had spoken of some improper paragraphs that had appeared in a public journal, reflecting upon the conduct of a noble lord on the other side, his noble friend; others might be quoted reflecting upon the conduct of other noble lords. Agreeing with the noble earl in his sentiments, respecting the liberty or the press, he trusted that if the press went beyond its due limits, its licentiousness would be punished. As to the propriety of any new law, upon the subject of which the noble earl had spoken, he should deliver no opinion until the case was made out. He could only speak upon most of the topics alluded to by the noble earl, from the same information which the noble earl seemed to rely upon, and which had been chiefly derived from the public journals; he did not think, therefore, that the house was at all in a state to go into the inquiry proposed by the noble earl, nor did he think the mode proposed was that which the house ought to adopt. Noble lords, on the other side, had moved for information upon different points, and when in possession of that information, they could bring those points distinctly before the house; but the general inquiry proposed by the noble earl was not, in his opinion, the mode of inquiry which ought to be adopted.—With respect to the campaign in Spain and Portugal, the plan, as far as he was informed, was good, in being, as he contended, an object of great importance to Spain, and also to this country, to free Portugal from the French, thereby relieving the Spaniards from the enemy in their rear, and at the same time opening the Tagus to our trade, and relieving our old ally. It was afterwards intended to support the armies of Blake and Castanos, that if necessary the army of the latter should retreat to the South, and that our army should retreat to Portugal to defend that country against the French. It unfortunately happened that the armies of Blake and Castanos were destroyed, and that there was no Spanish
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army for our army to join.—With respect to the Convention in Portugal, his majesty's ministers, abiding by the decision of the Court of Inquiry, with respect to the military part of it, had distinctly disapproved of the diplomatic part. With respect to the subject generally, he thought the motion of the noble earl not the mode in which any inquiry ought to be instituted.
The Earl of Darnleyurged the necessity of inquiry in the mode proposed by the noble earl, by which all the facts might be brought before the house, relating to those events which had happened within the last six months, and which loudly demanded inquiry.
Lord Grenvillewas surprized that any objection should be made to going into the proposed inquiry, after ministers had so recently and repeatedly declared their readiness and their anxiety to meet inquiry with respect to their conduct. By the inquiry proposed by the noble earl, all the facts respecting that conduct would be elicited, and the house enabled to form its judgment. In the course of that inquiry they would be enabled to ascertain the instructions given to officers in command, and the discretion which was left to those officers. It might be said, that ministers were not responsible for the exercise of a discretion entrusted to officers whom they employed, but it was of the utmost importance to the country that the whole subject should become matter of inquiry; and, however their feelings might revolt at entering into any investigation involving the conduct of an officer now no more, yet public duty demanded that they should assert the exercise of that discretion, in order to complete the inquiry which was so absolutely called for. He did not wish to trouble their lordships with a repetition of what he had said before upon topics involved in this discussion, nor could he allude to information not before the house, although that was the only room in the country, in which information long since before the public, was not made the subject of conversation. Amongst other topics it was surely highly necessary to inquire from what cause it arose that our army, sent to Sweden, remained inactive on board the ships which conveyed it there, and that the gallant officer who commanded it, sir John Moore, was obliged to escape almost in disguise. After ministers had so loudly called for inquiry, he could not conceive why they

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should now oppose it. The mode proposed, was that which had been adopted by parliament upon former occasions, when the state of events appeared to demand it. When the army of Cornwallis surrendered in America, the mode of inquiry proposed, was by a Committee on the State of the Nation, which was, upon that occasion, agreed to for the very purpose of inquiring. It appeared, therefore, that the mode of inquiry proposed by the noble earl, was sanctioned by precedent and the practice of parliament, and he thought it the best that could be adopted on the present occasion.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that his majesty's ministers, at the prorogation of the last session, had left parliament with the impression that it was the general, and he might say the unanimous opinion, both of the people and the legislature, that every thing ought to be done, which the resources of the country would admit of, in assisting the Spanish nation against the unprincipled and unprovoked attack of their enemy. The question now to be considered was, whether they had executed the trust with which they were charged, conformably to the wishes and expectations of the country? He admitted that the question was of importance, and well worthy of inquiry but, as ministers had not shrunk from investigation, he could not agree either in the necessity or propriety of a motion of so general a nature as bad been proposed by the noble earl this evening. He was willing to allow, that for their conduct upon any of the important measures which had been adopted during the recess, they were responsible; and it was competent for the noble earl, or any other member of that house, to call them to account upon each of these measures individually. But, after 25 years experience in parliament, he could not help thinking, that it required much serious deliberation before their lordships acceded to an enquiry of so general a nature, and which might branch out into such a variety of topics, as that which it was now proposed to institute. If, for example, the noble lord thought that there was any thing relative to the campaign in Portugal, or in Spain, or to the Cintra convention, in which his majesty's ministers were criminally implicated, he might, with perfect propriety, submit a motion to the house upon any of these subjects; which would lead to the investigation of the merits or demerits of their conduct. Bathe trusted
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that their lordships, before sanctioning a proposition for so large an inquiry as that which was now moved for, would seriously consider the extensive range which it might afterwards be found necessary to take, and which would occupy so much time that it would completely obstruct the progress of any other public business. It had been said on the first night of the session, by a noble lord, that the misconduct of ministers was so obvious, that no inquiry was necessary to establish it. in reply to this imputation, ministers had then said, "hear us before you condemn us; move for any information you may think proper, and we assure you that we shall be as ready to grant, as you to call for it." Instead of this, however, the noble earl had come forward with a motion, not for a specific inquiry into a particular measure, but for a general inquiry into the State of the Nation, comprehending even the existing laws for regulating the press. As the noble earl had thought proper particularly to advert to the liberty of the press, he (lord Eldon) took this opportunity of expressing his opinion, that the law, as it at present stood, was quite equal to curb its licentiousness, provided it was duly enforced: But he mentioned this subject principally for the purpose of the indefinite extent to which the inquiry moved for by the noble earl might be carried.—His lordship concluded with saying, that if the noble earl was desirous of information respecting the grounds of any part of the conduct of ministers, he would take upon himself to assure him, that it would not be refused to him, even to the most unlimited extent; but he did not think that their lordships would be of opinion, that this was precisely the time to go into an inquiry into all the various topics connected with the general State of the Nation.
Lord Erskinecontended, that, if ever there was a time at which a motion for general inquiry ought to be entertained, the present was the moment. It was a moment which, of all others that had ever occurred in the history of the country, loudly called for the counsel and interposition of parliament. With what had just fallen from his noble and learned friend upon the woolsack respecting the liberty of the press, he most heartily concurred. He knew nothing on earth which, in his mind, approached nearer to perfection, than the English laws upon this subject; and if breaches of them at any time occurred, he thought that the persons calumniated were

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more culpable in not resorting to that protection which they held out equally to the characters of all, than the printers and publishers of the libels. Supposing, therefore, that the house were to go into a committee of inquiry, he did not conceive that their attention would be at all directed to any topic connected with the public press. With respect to the suggestion which had fallen from his noble and learned friend of dividing or restricting the inquiry, he hoped that the noble earl would not object to it, provided that he was not excluded from calling for investigation upon any particular subject on which he might conceive information to be necessary. His lordship was of opinion, that ministers were particularly culpable in not having consulted parliament upon the measures which were adopted at so important a crisis; and, above all, in having suffered four months to elapse before they sent any assistance to Spain. An inquiry into their past conduct was especially called for, at a time when another expedition was reported to be in contemplation, and when the whole world was combined against us. On these grounds, the motion should have his most hearty concurrence.
Earl Grosvenorprofessed that he would have no objection to frame his motion in any shape in which the object of it might be best attained, and to divide the inquiry into different branches, if it was supposed that it would be more convenient and eligible to proceed in this method than in that which he had proposed.
The Earl of Liverpoolacknowledged that the crisis was most important, and that the motion of the noble earl was strictly parliamentary. He acknowledged also, that similar motions had been on former occasions made and agreed to. But in the course of the last twenty years, amid all the awful events which had happened during that time, though motions of a similar nature had been frequently made, in no one instance had they ever been carried into effect. He could not help remarking also, that such motions had been repeatedly made when an administration of which the noble baron (Grenville) was a member, and neither in the case of the retreat from Dunkirk, nor the loss of Holland, had they been acceded to. The reasons for rejecting them on those occasions were the same which should influence his vote on the present; namely, the indefinite nature of such inquiries, and the consideration whether another
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and more convenient course might not be adopted. The generality of the inquiry moved for, he contended went far to defeat its object. The noble earl had indeed said, that he would have no objection to restrict his motion. But, would it not be better first to call for information, where information was wanted, than to proceed at once to inquiry, and then by this very act in some measure to prejudge ministers, the merits of whose conduct it was the professed object to investigate? Thin course in the present instance, his lordship thought, was particularly prescribed, because all the facts which he had heard stated, respecting either the loss of our army or the campaign in Portugal, were extremely incorrect. With regard to the campaigns, both in Spain and Portugal, there would not be the least objection to give the fullest possible information, to enable parliament completely to decide upon the conduct of government; and all that he now asked of their lordships, was not to pass a censure upon that conduct before they had the means of judging of it.
The Earl of Moiraimpressed upon their lordships' attention the importance and urgency of the motion for inquiry. Ministers pleaded their innocence: why, then, did they object to the only means of vindicating it, in the face of the country and of the world? The subject of the present evening's discussion was one in which every individual was interested; he trusted, therefore, that their lordships would act under a deep and solemn impression of the importance of the question on which they were called upon to decide. He had asserted on a former night, and he was ready now to maintain, that ministers had been obviously guilty of the grossest misconduct in regard to Sweden, to America, and to Spain. After having embroiled Sweden with Denmark, they had abandoned our ally in his utmost need. In consequence of their refusal to accede to the proposition which had been made by the American government, and the continued suspension of intercourse between the two countries, no flax-seed had been imported into Ireland, which would occasion a stoppage, or at least a decline in the linen manufacture of that country, in which no less than half a million of persons were employed. The noble earl proceeded to take a review of their conduct in regard to Spain. Upon wrong information, received from sir Charles Cotton, that there were only 5,000 French at

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Lisbon, they had sent out a force to Portugal, and during the operations in Portugal they had not taken a single step to prepare for the march of our army into Spain. When reinforcements also were sent out to this army, instead of their being sent to join it, they sailed to the remotest point of the peninsula, and to the most barren province in the kingdom which they went to deliver—thus rendering it impossible for the commander, for a considerable time, to undertake any enterprize with the smallest chance of success.—After dilating upon these points at some length, his lordship concluded with conjuring them to pause, and seriously to reflect upon the consequences, before they negatived an inquiry which was so loudly called for, both by past errors and the awful results to which, if not speedily corrected, they might eventually lead.
Lord Harrowbysaid, that the speech of the noble earl did not at all apply to the question before their lordships. He said, he did not want information to criminate ministers, and yet he complained that no information was given; and he would even have this information supplied with a disregard of all the established forms of parliamentary proceeding. In modern times the method now proposed to incipiate this inquiry had been uniformly and wisely rejected. Why had it been abandoned? Because such a mode seemed to presuppose a cause of complaint against those upon whose conduct no examination had been instituted. The regular form was to apply for those documents which noble lords should consider necessary to assist their purpose; and having obtained these, to examine if there were sufficient grounds for any investigation; and on discovering those grounds to proceed upon the inquiry. The intention appeared to be not seriously to execute the duty the motion manifestly suggested—to search into the real state of the country. What he objected to, was not a full exposition of the condition of public affairs, but to those representations of the national concerns which would paralyse the efforts of the country. He admitted, in common with noble lords opposite to him, that it was an important crisis, that there were times, when all the energies of a mighty people were required to meet the dangers with which we were surrounded: he acknowledged, that we stood on an eminence whence we could discern no intermediate landing places to break our fall, and being
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in this awful situation, he called upon noble lords, on the other side of the house, not to diminish the general enthusiasm, not to infrigidate the public ardour, but to exert all their talents, and employ all their influence to animate that fervid sensibility on which the national security so essentially depends.—His lordship then adverted to the observations used by a noble lord (Grenville), and said it was to be inferred from those observations that the country was in so awful a state, so pregnant with peril and danger, that the influence of parliament would be of little avail; in short, that the country was not merely in a 'sinking state,' but actually sunk. He would not reply to such arguments, however they might tend to delude the public opinion; but ask if it was possible any man could be so blind to the pre-eminent state in which the country was placed among the Surrounding nations? That the country was exposed to dangers was manifest, but those dangers had been brought upon us, not by the misconduct of ministers, but by the hatred and ambition of the enemy. England, he said, could not retreat; she must maintain her station, or sink beneath the power of that individual who sought to enslave her.
Lord Grenvillerose to explain, and complained of his arguments having been mis-stated. He had no wish to delude the public opinion, and was ready to re-state what he had said. Neither did he wish to diffuse despair or despondency, or palsy the efforts and energies of government. The experience of his political life, and the sentiments he had always entertained, were at direct variance with such intentions. What he had said was, that his majesty's ministers were pursuing a line of policy which, if persisted in, would ultimately bring the country to ruin. At the same time his advice was, to stand firm, and if the resources and energies of the country were applied with wisdom and policy, the nation would still maintain its pre-eminent rank among nations. No country stood in so proud a situation with respect to its navy. The army, too, if permitted to exercise its valour and discipline with effect, was alike pre-eminent. The resources of the country were unequalled by any other, and the patriotism of the people, and their willingness to bear the burdens imposed upon them, was unexampled. Indeed, the voluntary contribution of the subject frequently foreran the demand, and gave to the exigencies of

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the state before it was asked. Notwithstanding these distinguishing features, the evils resulting from the misconduct of ministers were calculated to deprive the country of the natural effects of such advantages, to depress and keep down the energies of the people, and to render useless the resources of the empire, and the valour and enterprize of our fleets and armies. Enterprises were undertaken without any specific object—armies were sent off without any matured plan of operations, and disembarked where success was impracticable; and the only fortunate result to be calculated upon, was the proportion of disaster that might be ultimately expected, before such armies could be extricated from the peril into which they had been imprudently and unwisely pressed. But he must again repeat, that he was not undervaluing the valour of the country, or under-rating its internal resources and energies, neither did he wish to inculcate despondency or despair, but to increase public confidence and accelerate vigour. But he would also repeat, that if ills majesty's ministers persisted in tile same ruinous councils they had for some time past adopted, he could see no possible way of saving the country from inevitable and irretrievable ruin.
The question was then put, and the motion for going into a Committee upon the State of the Nation was negatived without a division.