Lords Sitting of 18 April 1809

CAMPAIGN IN SPAIN.
The Earl of Liverpoollaid on the table the two letters from admiral Apodaça to Mr. Secretary Canning, which he moved for yesterday, and which were ordered to be printed. His lordship took the opportunity of observing with respect to some correspondence between the Junta of Gallicia and capt. Kennedy, which was stated by earl Grey, on the preceding day, to be wanting, that the letters alluded to were not in the possession of government, but as capt. Kennedy was in town, he would endeavour to procure some explanation from him.
Earl Darnleysaid a few words with respect to the Letters of Mr. Frere to sir John Moore, which had formerly been represented by the noble secretary of state as unimportant, but which on their production were found to be of great importance; and he could not accord with the denomination attached to them by noble lords opposite, of their being letters of a private nature. They had certainly exhibited very extraordinary conduct in our minister at Madrid, who had written in so very peculiar terms to sir John Moore, whereby that illustrious general was involuntarily induced to march further than Salamanca, and, unfortunately for his country, afterwards lost his life. He felt it certainly an invidious task to impute improper conduct to any individual, but such had been that of Mr. Frere, he thought the house would be wanting in their duty, if they did not speedily move an Address to his majesty for the immediate recal of that minister; it was a duty they owed to the memory of the illustrious and gallant officer sir J. Moore. He conceived it incumbent to bring this particular subject very soon under the consideration of the house. With regard to these Letters also, their importance was such as to remove every blame contrived to be attached to the conduct of that lamented commander, and clearly to shew it was to be imputed wholly to another quarter.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he wished to be clearly understood with respect to what he had stated on a former occasion. It would be in their lordships recollection, that he had not asserted the Letters referred to were of no importance, he merely stated, they would be found not material; with respect to sir John Moore's
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further march from Salamanca, true it was, he entertained an opinion that sir John Moore had acted wisely under all circumstances in proceeding further at the time, but he was still disposed to differ from noble lords opposite that sir John Moors was not led to do so by any letter sent to him from Mr. Frere. When he had also described the letters to be private, he had defined in what way he meant to use that expression. He merely applied that word to the form in which they were received, and not to the subject matter of their contents. He thought it proper to rise for the purpose of giving this explanation, but he was not disposed to be drawn into any collateral discussion on this question, as next Friday the whole of it would come before the house.
Earl Greywas surprised how any one could peruse the letters referred to, and the answers of sir John Moore, and maintain that he had not been driven against his own inclination to march further than Salamanca. If he recollected correctly what had been stated by the noble secretary, respecting the letters being of a private nature, he certainly understood him to have expressed himself differently at the time. He was sorry noble lords on that side of the house had been led to suppose the objection to their being produced, rested upon their contents being of a private nature. There could now, however, be no doubt the fatal event of the campaign in Spain, was in consequence of the interference of Mr. Frere with the conduct of sir John Moore.
The Earl of Carysfort, after having adverted to the papers on the table, mentioned his having been absent for want of health; and therefore he did not distinctly know whether any motion had been made, similar to the one he intended to propose. He now gave notice he should to-morrow move for a copy of all Instructions sent from his majesty's government to Mr. Frere; for it was of great importance to ascertain the powers possessed by Mr. Frere, which authorised him to controul the conduct of a commander. It was also mentioned that a particular person was the bearer of a message to Salamanca, yet his name was kept secret, and was omitted, by a blank in the printed papers. He could not conceive why this person should not be named; but he would to-morrow move, unless he was previously informed, that it should be disclosed to the house.
The Earl of Liverpoolcould assure the

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noble lord, that no instructions were sent, which authorized Mr. Frere to controul the conduct of our military commander. The communication which took place, was merely consequent On our minister being the political agent of the directions given by the government of that country. With respect to the name of the person, noble lords would consider it might be attended with inconvenience and injury, if ministers were under the necessity of disclosing the names of persons officially employed; and for that reason he did not feel warranted in naming the person alluded to.
Earl Greydid not believe the noble earl would be successful in the first part of his motion, after he himself had said so much relative to the instructions sent to Mr. Frere. After all the papers which had been laid on the table, there was so much information kept back, that he declared it was not possible for the house to arrive at a correct judgment on the whole of the proceedings. There could be no inconvenience resulting from mentioning this person's name, for it was already known it was no secret; yet it was said, because a case might be inconvenient to name a particular person, the information was refused; such language was unbecoming a secretary of state.
Lord Aucklandobserved, that it was known who the person alluded to was. He should abstain from mentioning his name, but it might be very material, under all the circumstances, to know who he was, whether a person sent from this country and attached to Mr. Frere's suite, or a person employed there; and whether he were a native of that country or a French officer.
The Earl of Buckinghamshiresaid a few words respecting the insufficiency of the Return relative to the Arms furnished to Portugal, it not stating what quantity of those sent had been received.
The Earl of Liverpoolsupposed that all sent had been received.
Viscount Sidmouthwished to know if it was the intention of ministers to make any motion respecting the Spanish Treaty?
The Earl of Liverpoolanswered in the negative.
Viscount Sidmouthobserved, that the house had been called upon on the first day of the session, to express their satisfaction, that such a Treaty had been concluded, and now it appeared they were not to have the opportunity of discussing its provisions.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that the treaty not having been accompanied by a message from his majesty, it was not the usage for his majesty's ministers to make any motion upon it, nor did they intend it, but it was open to any noble lord to bring forward any proposition on the subject.