Lords Sitting of 30 June 1808

STAMP DUTIES BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
The Earl of Suffolkrose to express his disapprobation of the principle of the bill, and of the hardships to which it would expose persons already labouring under a multiplicity of distresses. The noble earl instanced the case of some tenants of his own, upon whom he knew it would press with peculiar severity.
The Earl of Lauderdalewould not detain their lordships with a repetition of the objections to the principle of the bill, which he continued to consider as most iniquitous. He should then, however, in the most regular and public manner, enter his protest against it.
The Duke of Norfolkdid not rise to oppose the bill. Burdened as the country already was with a load of taxes, its situation was perhaps such as, under the present circumstances, to call for and justify some addition to that burden. His object in rising now was to avail himself of the privilege of a peer of parliament, and offer some advice to his majesty's ministers which the present posture of affairs suggested to his mind. He hoped it might not be deemed irregular or unparliamentary to offer that advice, and put a few questions to his majesty's government, at a moment when parliament was voting supplies for the current services of the year. In stating, however, his opinion to the house, it was by no means his wish to draw any answers from the ministers which they should not deem it perfectly proper and safe to make;

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indeed, he looked for no answers or observations at all respecting the subjects he should touch upon, unless his majesty's ministers thought it consistent with their duty and the present critical state of affairs, to enter into some explanation of them. The points to which he obviously alluded, and on which the public attention most anxiously hung, were the present situation of Spain and Sweden. The most wanton ambition, the foulest perfidy, the most cruel oppression, had lately displayed themselves in Spain, to a degree unparalleled, he believed, in any age or country. These excesses had fired the Spaniards with becoming indignation and resentment, and they were now endeavouring to resist the power which was preparing to overwhelm them. Such a spectacle must at all times be interesting to Englishmen; but it must be peculiarly so at the present moment. There was no man but must wish success to a generous people thus struggling in the glorious cause of the maintenance of their independence; no man, he was sure, could more cordially wish them success than he did, or would more willingly concur in the proper means of promoting and ensuring that success. But what were the best mode and the proper conditions by which Spain could be assisted? He did not pretend to know the particular circumstances in which Spain was placed, or the degree of hope that might be entertained of the success of these who were endeavouring to resist the sternest tyranny, instigated by the most desperate ambition, that ever was attempted to be exercised by any potentate over the independence of nations. Louis XIV. it was true, aspired to universal monarchy, but in a milder way, and with means less terrible. More formidable abilities, and more accumulated forces, were now to be contended against, and the issue was of the highest moment, not only to Spain, but to this country, to Europe, and the world. What part his majesty's ministers were prepared to act at so critical a juncture, he could not conjecture. They had at present in this country delegates from the brave people in Spain, who seemed determined to stem the torrent by which they were to be swept into servitude. From these, and of her sources, he hoped they might be enabled to collect the best information of the real state of that country, and of the probability of success with which so bold and hazardous a struggle might be attended. With such information before them, what would be their con-
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duct? This was the point which excited his anxiety. Would they hold out encouragement and assistance to the Spaniards who were now in arms against the invaders, before they saw any form of government established in the country with which they could communicate? Would they make common cause with the patriots of Spain, before they ascertained the principles upon which they were acting, and the ends which they were endeavouring to accomplish? He could not think it politic to embark in such a cause, without some previous knowledge of the designs of the Spanish patriots, without some more definite determination of the grounds upon which they were proceeding to act. He hoped ministers would, in the present case, take a lesson from past experience, and recollect the result of the interference of this country in La Vendee. He felt it his duty to throw out these hints, without expecting any detailed explanation of what might be the views and intentions of his majesty's government.—He now begged leave to trouble their lordships with a word or two about Sweden. The situation of that kingdom and of its sovereign was also highly interesting; respecting the issue of the struggle which that gallant prince was making against the common oppressor, he confessed he had his fears. Still, he should have our best assistance, as if our hopes of final success were most sanguine. Such an example was to be supported and upheld. But should that spirited sovereign be also doomed to yield, we should not be inattentive to the fate that was to befal his kingdom. If it was to be portioned out, should not this country look to the interests of Denmark, to the future views of the great northern power, and to the attempts that might still be made to assert the independance of the north of Europe? Our hostility to Denmark could not be very keen: we should even be disposed to make the amende honorable to her for what had past, and rather contemplate what reconciliation and future friendship might effect, than what might gratify present hostility. He should trouble their lordships no further, but only hope, that in expressing these his sentiments on the present occasion, he had not been guilty of any irregularity.
Lord Hawkesburygave full credit to the candid and circumspect manner in which, the noble duke had delivered his opinions upon points of such delicacy. The noble duke was perfectly regular in the mode he

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took of delivering them, for when supplies were to be granted to his majesty, it was doubtless open to every noble lord to advise how those grants ought to be applied. In adverting to the points to which the noble duke had more particularly directed the attention of the house, their lordships must be sensible that his observations must be very general, and that owing to the very peculiar and delicate nature of the subject, he could not at present enter into any detailed explanations. With respect to Spain, the people of that country had manifested a spirit and determination to resist the attempts of their invaders, which would have done honour to the most glorious periods of their history, and which perhaps were not to be expected under the pressure of such formidable difficulties. Such a scene, every man in that house, every man in the country, must hail with the liveliest satisfaction; and what every generous heart must wish should be done in support of so glorious a cause, his majesty's ministers would feel it their duty to do. With regard to what information they had received of the designs or the hopes of those brave and resolute men, who, in defence of their country's independance, were exposing themselves to every thing which a powerful and sanguinary tyrant could devise, and indict, it could not be expected he should now unfold it. His majesty's ministers were fully sensible of the extreme importance of this event; and he trusted they would be found to have acted accordingly.—The situation of Sweden was certainly the next in interest and importance, and towards the monarch of that kingdom, whose gallant exertions so justly claimed our warmest wishes and admiration, the conduct of his majesty's ministers would also, he trusted, appear to be without reproach. When the time came freely to unfold the principles and the views which had guided that conduct, whenever that moment arrived, he should not shrink from that inquiry; but on the contrary, be most forward and eager to court it. He hoped, that under circumstances like the present, he should not be expected to enter into any details, but be allowed to expect that their lordships might be assured that his majesty's government would neglect nothing which the nature of the circumstances, both of this and of other countries, might suggest and require.
Lord Hollandstill retained his objections to the bill, on which, however, he should
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not now again dwell, but rather follow the example of his noble friend near him, and shortly express his opinion of the present aspect of affairs. What was the extent of the means of the Spanish patriots, or what their future views respecting a change in their government, he did not pretend to be accurately informed of. Of the spirit that actuated them he had no doubt; and from the nature of the country, and the resources which that spirit would supply, he willingly took the most auspicious omens. It held out a prospect of things which authorized the best hopes; and he anxiously expected it would be improved and taken advantage of. Much would depend upon the spirit and the views with which the government of this country would now act towards Spain. His advice was, that their spirit should be most liberal, their views most explicit, their objects most distinct, and most plainly understood. If they attempted at all to assist the efforts of Spain to resist her invaders, they should broadly explain, not only what they intended to do, but also what they did not intend to do. Above all, they should convince the Spaniards, that in assisting them we had no private interests to promote, no selfish objects to attain, no favourite forms of government to prescribe, no commercial advantage to require, no exclusive partialities to insist on; that we disinterestedly assisted Spain to achieve what the Spanish people were hazarding every thing to accomplish; that we were consequently willing to guarantee the integrity of the Spanish empire, and to negotiate with any form of government which the Spanish people were disposed to adopt, or with any family which they might choose to call to the throne, if they decided on a monarchical form, whether limited or unlimited. Not a moment should be lost in laying down agreements of that nature. The time for acting was the present moment, and his majesty's ministers would be seriously responsible, if, for any petty considerations, such as those he had alluded to, the opportunity should be lost. He should again repeat, that the ground of co-operation and assistance between the two countries, should be broad, liberal, and thoroughly understood on both sides.
The Duke of Norfolkcould by no means assent to a principle laid down by his noble friend; he meant the guaranteeing the integrity of the Spanish empire. He considered the Spanish possessions in South.

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America as lost from the present moment, and severed for ever from the mother country. It was, therefore, for the government of this country, a commercial and maritime nation, to watch the fall of the Spanish colonies. He could not otherwise look with security and satisfaction to the British interests in that quarter.—The bill was then read a third time.

HYDE PARK.
Earl Grosvenorrose to call the attention of the house to certain rumours that had gone abroad, of an intention to erect a number of buildings, so as to obstruct the view of the park, which contributed so much to the pleasure and the health of the inhabitants of the metropolis, while it would materially injure the property of several individuals. He was at a loss what mode to adopt, in order to bring the matter under their lordships' consideration; but as it regarded the welfare of the public, he must think there was some mode or other of submitting it to the consideration of parliament.
The Lord Chancellorand the earl of Lauderdale insisted that it was highly unparliamentary to interfere in the private concerns of the crown. The duke of Norfolk observed, that if the noble lord should hereafter contrive to bring the question before the house, he would pledge himself to prove that the public were more interested in the property of the crown than in the property of any individuals.

CURATES' RESIDENCE BILL.
Upon the order of the day for the third reading of this bill,
The Earl of Buckinghamshirerenewed his objections to the bill at some length.
Lord Harrowbysupported the bill upon the same grounds he had advanced upon a former debate.
The Lord Chancellorexpressed himself as desirous as any man could be to provide amply for every degree of the clergy, so as to enable them to maintain the respectability and dignity of their sacred character; but he was much afraid this bill would not answer the end which it proposed. He clearly foresaw it would be productive of numerous vexations, which, instead of promoting the interests of religion, would rather tend to injure them. When the Residence bill passed that house, it had been proposed by a short clause, to make a provision for curates; but that clause had been rejected, and he was perhaps as much to blame as any other person for the failure of that clause. Viewing, however, the present bill in the light he
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did, he could not give it his support; but as his objections were principally grounded on what he conceived of its effects, as a lawyer, he would wish the reverend bench would give their opinions on it, which could not fail to have great weight with the house.
The Bishop of Rochester, in consequence of this appeal, rose and said, that the diocese over which he presided was so small, as not to furnish a sufficient number of instances by which any criterion for judgment could be established. He could, however, assure their lordships, that this was a measure to which he had paid great attention, with a view of extending all the relief, comfort, and convenience possible to those meritorious and active labourers in the vineyard for whom provision was intended by the present measure; he regretted, however, that the bill in its present form was completely inadequate to accomplish the object which their lordships had in view, and, above all, that it could not have that immediate and beneficial effect expected by the liberal and humane right reverend prelate, who chiefly supported it. Their lordships must be aware that nothing could tend so effectually to the support and maintenance of the established religion as union amongst its clergy. This was an object so desirable, that every well wisher of the church must feel strongly inclined to encourage and support it; but surely the proper line to be followed was not that which the clauses of this bill went to introduce, under the sanction of the legislature. The curate and the rector would be set at variance in the first instance, and then their superiors were to be involved in the contest by the power of appeal; so that from beginning to end there would be nothing but one scene of confusion, distrust, and jealousy. He certainly was as liberally disposed as any man towards the inferior classes of the clergy, but until some effectual plan should be introduced for affording them complete relief, he was not inclined to disturb the present order of things.
The Bishops of Hereford and Carlislecoincided with the right reverend prelate in his view of the subject.
The Bishop of Londonregretted the necessity which he felt of dissenting from the right rev. prelates who had just delivered their opinions; but, painful as it was for him to be in that situation, he still felt it incumbent on him to give his feeble support to this bill, because he was convinced

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that it would promote the interests of religion, and give additional security to the established church.
Lord Hawkesburysupported the bill, and said, that the right hon. and learned gent. who brought in the bill for the residence of the clergy, had expressly declared that a better provision should be made for the curates, by a subsequent measure, and under that impression he had supported that bill. When that bill was brought into the house of lords, a clause to make a better provision for curates was then proposed, and the noble and learned lord was one of those who particularly objected to it; so that he thought the present bill ought to pass, in order that a proper provision might be made for so large and deserving a body of the clergy as the curates.
The Bishop of Londonbore testimony to what had been urged by lord Hawkesbury by saying, that he had himself, when the Residence bill was before the house, proposed the clause in favour of the curates which had been alluded to; and he recollected, that the noble and learned lord had then particularly objected to it, on the ground that it should be the object of a separate bill. It had now been introduced in a separate bill, and he thought that bill should pass, for if it did not, he was afraid this would be the last time it would be attempted.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that thus called on, he must beg leave to say a few words. He acknowledged he had opposed the clause alluded to, and which had been brought in by the rev. prelate who spoke last, and he had already mentioned it this evening, and taken blame to himself on that account. He then very much wished the Residence bill should pass, and he and other noble lords who thought with him, were apprehensive that if that clause was tacked to it, the bill would be lost. He owned they had been mistaken, but that was the real cause of their objection. He observed his noble friend (lord Hawkesbury) smiled at what he said, but if he meant it in doubt of what he said, he would not bear it; for he had already expressly mentioned the circumstance before either the noble lord or the rev. prelate had alluded to the clause in question. The noble lord had said, that a right hon. and learned gent, who brought in the Residence bill, had pledged himself that a separate bill should be brought in for the better provision of curates. If any man could alter his sentiments on the present bill, it would
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be that right hon. and learned gent.; but he believed, he neither attended the discussions on, nor voted for the present bill; but not even the high respect and affection he entertained for him could prevail on him, to countenance a measure, which, in his conscience, he believed to be so pregnant with vexatious and mischievous effects.
The Archbishop of Canterburysaid that he was perfectly satisfied with the principle of the bill, but there were some of the clauses which he thought would be attended with injurious effects, and would introduce vexation and mischief; he should therefore vote that the bill be rejected.
The question being called for, the Bill was rejected without a division.

MAYNOOTH COLLEGE
On the question that the Appropriation act be read a third time,
Lord Hollandobjected to it on the ground he had done yesterday, relative to the alteration in the grant to Maynooth College.
Lord Hawkesbury, for the reasons he had before assigned, defended the alteration.
The Duke of Bedfordcondemned the alteration in the grant.
The Earl of Lauderdaletermed it a narrow-minded, parsimonious saving; and was sorry to find, that after ministers had expressed their wishes that all terms of asperity against the Catholics should be avoided, as well as every thing that might tend to irritation among them, they should have coupled two such transactions, as the sending back to Ireland, loaded with honours, a man, who had in a most illiberal manner always shewn himself a bitter enemy of the Catholics, and this paltry saving of 3,500 l. previously granted them for the better educating, at home, priests to superintend the religion of the great mass of the people; which, taken together, could not fail, in his opinion, to cause the greatest irritation.—The Bill was then read a third time.

PHOTEST AGAINST THE SUGAR DISTILLATION BILL.
On the third reading of this Bill, the following Protest was entered upon the Journals of their lordships: viz.
"Dissentient, 1st. Because, when we consider that the price of wheat was not higher than 72 s. per quarter, nor the price of barley more than 40 s. on the 7th of May, about which time it was first proposed to stop the distilleries, under the pretended notion of an approaching scarcity, and that the price of wheat was 75 s. 6d. and of barley Ms. 9d. on the 1st

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of Jan. 1802, at which time the prohibition, imposed in Dec. 1801, was done away by the legislature; it is obvious that this measure proceeds upon grounds perfectly different from those prohibitions which were enforced in the 35th, 36th, and 41st years of his majesty's reign.—Because, as we learn from the Report of the Committee, communicated to this house by the house of commons, that this measure was recommended 'with a view to apply as speedy a relief as possible to the case of the West India planters,' and that nothing in the evidence before them could have induced them to propose a measure so hurtful; independent of that consideration, we feel it our duty to protest against a principle so novel and dangerous as that of depriving the agriculturist of the benefit he derives from the demand created by the distilleries, for the sole purpose of a temporary relief to the distresses of any other classes of the community.—Because we see great reason to reprobate, in the strongest terms, that principle of commercial legislation, now for the first time adopted, which sanctions the temporary relief of those who have embarked their capital in one branch of industry, by imposing hardships on those whose capital is engaged in promoting the national prosperity through the means of another branch of industry.—It appears to us, that, if the price of cotton goods were at any time reduced so low, from the abundance of the stock in hand, that they were sold at a loss to the manufacturers, it would be a system new and injurious to prohibit, on that account, certain classes of the community from wearing woollen cloth. Yet it is upon this principle that the industry of the farmer, whose exertions are generally acknowledged to be the most beneficial to the community, is now to be depressed, for the purpose of affording an uncertain, and, at best, a temporary relief to the West India planter.
LAUDERDALE,
SUFFOLK AND BERKS,
SELKIRK."