Lords Sitting of 23 June 1808

STAMP DUTIES BILL.
On the motion that the Stamp Duties bill be read a first time,
Lord Hollandrose to observe upon the extreme importance and complexity of the measure. It was one which, in his opinion, required and deserved a minute and mature consideration. It was therefore proper the house should have it before them in a legible and accessible form. His lordship then moved that the bill be printed.
Lord Hawkesburyobserved, that it was not the practice to print bills of this sort, nor did he see of what utility it could prove to have the bill printed. He must therefore resist the motion of his noble friend.
The Earl of Lauderdale and the duke of
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Norfolk insisted on the propriety of having the bill printed, as otherwise it would be impossible to come at a perfect knowledge of its provisions. Lord Hawkesbury repeated his objections to the printing of the bill; upon which, lord Holland said, he felt it his duty to take the sense of their lordships upon the question. The house then divided: Contents Mi; Not-contents 28.—Majority 12.

BANK OF IRELAND CHARTER BILL.
The Earl of Lauderdalerose pursuant to notice, to move that the opinion of the Judges be taken upon certain clauses of this bill, which regulated the amount of the notes which the Bank was empowered to issue, and the distribution of any surplus that might arise to the subscribers. According to the accounts on the table, it appeared that the bank had issued notes to a larger amount than that to which by the bill it was limited; and that the subscribers had subscribed only the same sums as before. He was at a loss to see where was the necessity of providing for the distribution of the overplus. This latter clause surely contained as gross a bull as ever was imported from Ireland.
The Earl of Limerickrose to order. He could not sit silent and hear reflections thrown out upon the country to which he belonged, nor would he tolerate them from any noble lord.
The Earl of Lauderdalemeant no disrespect to Ireland; he had often been rallied himself on the accent he had brought from his country, without being hurt at it. The best authorities considered bulls as the offspring of a quick imagination. But surely an act of parliament was not the most suitable place for exhibiting flights of fancy.
The Lord Chancellorsaw no necessity for consulting the Judges on the clauses referred to by the noble baron. As a lawyer, he might take upon him to say that the Judges would give no opinion as to the illegality or obscurity of the clauses; but he was not now delivering the opinion of a lawyer.—After a few words from lord Lauderdale, the motion was negatived without a division.—The bill was then read a third time and passed.

PROTEST AGAINST THE BANK OF IRELAND CHARTER BILL.
On the passing of this Bill, the following Protest was entered on the Lords Journals: viz. "1st, Because this act sanctions the prolongation of the Charter of the Bank of Ireland from the year 1816, at which time that corporation

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might, on notice, have been dissolved, to the year 1837, and thus confirms the valuable exclusive privileges it now enjoys for thirty years, on terms most inadequate and improvident, as must appear from the following short statement:—The agreement on the part of the bank, to manage the public debt of Ireland, free of all charges and expense, gives the public a sum amounting nearly to 7,525 l. per ann. the commission the Bank at present receives on that account.—But the public have given to the Bank 5 per cent, for the sum of 1,250,000 l. they might have borrowed at 4l. 14 s. 6d. the interest at which money has been actually raised this year by the government of Ireland; 3,437 l. being the difference betwixt 62,500 l. the interest of 1,250,000 l., at 5 per cent, and 59,062 l., the interest of the said sum at 4l. 14 s. 6d. per cent, must therefore be taken from 7500 l. the public have acquired; and it will then appear, that an annuity of 4,088 l. is the full amount of the pecuniary consideration given for the extension of this valuable privilege.—Further, the duration of this trifling remuneration is no way guarded by the act; it may expire within a short time, and the public, whilst the bank are in full enjoyment of the privileges conferred on them, may be compelled to make a new agreement for the charges of that part of the public debt which may be managed in Ireland; for this act contains no provision compelling the bank of Ireland to manage any part of the public debt after it shall be consolidated with the debt of Great Britain, an event, which, under the 7th Article of Union betwixt Great Britain and Ireland, may take place within a very few years.—2dly, Because the act ought, for the credit of the bank of Ireland, and the security of the people of that country, to have expressed, in clear and distinct terms, the nature and extent of the privileges it confers.—It is true that it contains a clause limiting the circulation of the bank of Ireland to the sum of 2,750,000 l. similar to the clause of the Irish act of the 37th of the king, ch. 50, which limited the circulation of that bank to 1,500,000 l.—But, as it appears by documents before parliament, that this bank has, notwithstanding the said clause, illegally extended its circulation to a sum Upwards of 3,000,000 l. The act ought distinctly to have expressed what, in conjunction with the Irish acts of the 22d, 31st, end 37th years of his majesty, it
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clearly enacts, viz.—"That if any sum, exceeding the sum of 2,750,000 l. shall be borrowed, or taken up by, or lent, or advanced to, the Corporation of the bank of Ireland, under their common seal or otherwise, or for payment of which any bond, bill, note, covenant, agreement, or other writing shall be made, sealed, or given, then, and in such case, all and every the person or persons who shall be a member or members of the said corporation, his or their respective heir or heirs, executors, or administrators, shall, in his or their respective private capacities, be chargeable with, or liable in proportion to, their several shares and subscriptions, to the repayment of such monies which shall be so borrowed, taken up, or lent, with interest for the same, in such manner as if such security had been a security for payment of so much money and interest for the same, sealed by such respective members of such corporation, and delivered by him or them, as their respective acts or deeds, in proportion to their several shares and subscriptions, as aforesaid."—3dly, Because we think it our duty to express the strong sense we feel of the great impropriety of extending the Charter of the bank of Ireland, by act of parliament, without, in the same act, doing away that doubt, which, since the passing of an act in the year 1793, was known to exist concerning the admissibility of our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, to the direction of that corporation.—We must think that those who pretend to feel such alarm at the idea of granting any extension of privileges to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, were called upon to remove a doubt, on which their minds, if they are serious in their professions, must dwell with such anxiety. Whilst, on the other hand, our anxious desire to see our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects enjoy, in every respect, the privileges to which their birth-right entitles them, makes us deeply regret that this act does not, in explicit terms, declare their eligibility to the situation of governor or director of the bank of Ireland.
LAUDERDALE,
DUNDAS,
(For the last reason) V. HOLLAND."

SUGAR DISTILLATION.
The order of the day being moved for the second reading of the bill prohibiting for a time to be limited the Distillation from corn,
Earl Bathurstrose and observed, that it was not necessary for him to detain their lordships by any minute explanation of

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the measure now proposed. It was one, which, when fairly considered, would be found highly expedient under all the circumstances of the present moment. The country was now completely excluded from any supplies of corn from the continent of Europe, and from America. A scarcity of provisions had been felt in many parts of the united kingdom; in Scotland, oats were scarce, and had risen in price; in Ireland the potatoe crop had in a great degree failed, which produced a greater consumption of corn, so that prudence dictated a measure which, while it seasonably provided against a scarcity in one quarter, would afford relief in another, where distress had arisen from a superabundance of other articles. There was now a glut in the market, of West India produce, which proved highly injurious to the interests of the West Indian proprietor. This glut would be relieved by encouraging distillation from sugar, without producing any detriment whatever to the interests and improvement of agriculture. He trusted, therefore, the measure would be cheerfully acquiesced in.
The Earl of Selkirkthought the measure pregnant with the most injurious consequences to the agricultural interests of! the country. He admitted that what was used in the distilleries, or in other purposes different from that of immediate sustenance in a year of plenty, might come in aid of the supply in a year of scarcity, and that it might, in consequence of scarcity, become absolutely necessary to stop the distilleries; but, generally speaking, it was much better to leave agriculture and distillation to themselves; if the price of grain became so high in consequence of scarcity that the distillation of it would not yield a profit, the distilleries must of course stop. The high price of grain would also be an encouragement to further cultivation; the produce of which being brought to market would lower the price. The high price of grain might have the effect of inducing the conversion of a portion of grass land into tillage, which would immediately tend to lower the price of grain; and if only a thirtieth part of the grass land in the united kingdom was converted into tillage, he believed there would be no necessity for the importation of grain. He objected to the bill, as tending to lessen the cultivation of grain, and to render the operations of agriculture unsteady and fluctuating. The distilleries, besides, had already stopped,
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and no more grain of the produce of the last harvest would be distilled; the deficiency therefore in the last harvest could be no ground for the bill; it must apply to the ensuing harvest, and of that there was at present the fairest prospect; Conceiving the bill to be an unnecessary interference with the agriculture of the country, he must oppose it.
Lord Hollandhad heard nothing to induce him to withdraw that support which he intended to give to the present bill. He could see no reason why, it the quantity of grain consumed in a year of plenty, for purposes different from necessary sustenance, was to come in aid of a year of scarcity, it might not also come in aid of a deficiency of importation. The great object in this case was the relief of the West India interest, now in a state of great distress, and to prevent that ruin in which they must be involved if something was not done to take off a part of that pressure which weighed so heavily upon them. If this could be done, as he contended it could, not only without injuring the interests of agriculture, but with ultimate benefit to those interests, as the West India Islands must, in the present state of affairs, be in a great measure dependant upon this country for provisions; and if some relief was afforded in the present instance, those connected with them would be the better enabled to purchase supplies, he saw no reason why the present measure should not be carried into effect, merely because it was contrary to a general principle.
Viscount Sidmouththought it impolitic to interfere with the agriculture of the country. Let every thing be left to price, and that would be found a much better regulator of the amount of the supply in the market, than any legislative measure. He could not agree with the policy of sacrificing one interest for the benefit of another; it was much better, in his opinion, that competition should be left to its effect. With respect to the West India interest, he thought it would be much better to resort to other measures of a more permanent nature for their relief.
The Earl of Albemarlehad not heard any necessity shewn for the present measure; nor could he agree, that the West India interest ought to be relieved at the expence of the agricultural interests of the country. With respect to importation of grain, he was of opinion, that the land now in cultivation would, if properly managed,

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produce a sufficient supply without the necessity of importation.
Lord De Dunstanvilledid not think the agricultural interests of the country would be injured by the present measure, and he could not help thinking it hard upon the West India interest, if, whilst compelled to bring their sugar to this country, they should be precluded from the means, which would be afforded by this measure, of disposing of a part of that produce.
The Duke of Montroseurged the deficiency in the supply of oats and barley in Scotland, as a strong ground for the present measure.
The Earl of Lauderdalecontended that the Report of the committee of the house of commons on this subject, did not clearly state the grounds on which the present measure was founded. He condemned the principle of sacrificing the interests of the grower of barley to the grower of sugar, observing that the same principle might be extended in a most injurious manner to different trades and manufactures, and contended, that the throwing back upon the market the quantity of barley which would otherwise be consumed in the distilleries, would necessarily cause a great diminution of price, and greatly injure the agricultural interests of the country.
Lord Hawkesburycontended that the agricultural interests of the country, who were already protected by law in the price fixed, until which, no importation of grain could take place, had no right to complain of the relief now wished to be afforded to another great interest of the country. No one could be more convinced than himself of the importance of supporting the agriculture of the country; he had always considered the agriculture and the navigation of the country, as the two great leading interests on which the prosperity of the country rested. In this case, however, the interests of the whole community required that means should be adopted to prevent the evil consequences of a deficiency of grain arising from there being no importation, and though at present there was every prospect of an abundant harvest, still it should be recollected that the critical period with respect to the future hopes of that harvest had not yet passed. It was in this point of view, added to the actual deficiency which existed in Scotland and Ireland, that he supported the present measure.—The Bill was then read a second time.