Lords Sitting of 11 August 1807

PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS BILL.
Lord Hollandmoved the second reading of this bill.
Lord Hawkesburysaid, he should move, that the bill, instead of being read a second time now, be read a second time this day 3 months: first, because he thought the preamble of the bill absolute nonsense; secondly, because many of the motives alleged for introducing it, as well as the allegations upon which it was founded, were not true in the extent alleged, and were, in many respects, highly objectionable; and, thirdly, because the subject was one which, in its various bearings, called for more serious and deliberate discussion than was practicable at the present period of the session, to justify their lordships in its adoption. He would not deny, that education to the lower orders of the community, in the extent proposed, under proper directions and limitations, might be desirable; but he could not agree with the framers of the bill, that education, blended with morality, was more extended amongst the lower classes of the Scotch population, than amongst those of this country; for, however superior the Scotch might be in the former, he could not admit their superiority in the latter. He objected also to the bill, because it did not propose to place instruction more upon a religious footing; and though it was certainly less objectionable now than in its original form, which rendered the plans it proposed compulsory upon the parishes throughout the kingdom, yet the modification was, in his view, not much less inadmissible; for it placed the adoption of such schools at the sole discretion of the majority of parishioners in number, without any reasonable

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discrimination of rank and property, in the parish, which certainly ought, in such a matter, to have their proportionate weight, and the want of which would be a subject of constant dispute and division.
Lord Hollandthought the bill, in the form it had reached this house, was so totally devoid of all possible ground for objection, that he was surprized at the hostility of his noble friend. He did not think the preamble liable to the objection that it was nonsense. In substance, at least, it was indisputably true; and the mere error of a single word might be remedied in a committee. He should have thought it an insult to the understanding of the house to go into elaborate arguments, for the purpose of proving that educating the people would improve their morals and their comforts; and as to the argument of want of time to discuss so important a subject at this period of the session, this was one among the many instances which had already occurred to falsify the pompous assertions of his majesty's ministers, and the public papers in their interest, that the late dissolution could cause no material interruption to the public business, nor impede any of those great and salutary public measures to which the country looked, and of which this bill was certainly one.
Lord Redesdaledisapproved highly of the bill in its present shape, though, with his noble friend, he cherished the principle, that a good system of education properly regulated would be of great public utility. His principal objection to the present bill seemed to be the little reference it had, in his view of it, to the religious establishments of the country. Such a principle should, in considerations of the kind, be kept primarily in view. To some of the provisions of the bill he also strongly objected. The enactments had no reference to the extent of the parish. Some parishes, particularly in the northern counties, were 25 miles long, and 14 or 15 broad. A great number of the parishioners, therefore, could reap no possible benefit from the establishment of one school. Besides, the bill would go to interfere with several scholastic establishments of private institution, which were now productive of great benefit in different parts of the country. In Ireland there was a legal provision, which, he regretted, was so ill attended to; that the parish ministers should either themselves keep a school, or appoint a Schoolmaster directly for the instruction of
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the parishes. In that case, the instructors were, either directly, or indirectly, the ministers of the established religion. This principle was not sufficiently attended to in the present bill, and was, with him, a strong ground for its rejection. Almost all its provisions were likely to be productive of much practical mischief, if the bill passed in its present shape, without the least probability of its being attended with any new benefit. Viewing the bill in this light, he must agree with the noble secretary of state, who moved that the consideration of it be postponed.
The Lord Chancelloropposed the bill in its present shape, though he was by no means unfriendly to the principle of diffusing instruction as generally and as widely as possible. He was fully sensible of the benefits arising from the system of education in Scotland, and as he himself was one of the borderers on that part of the country, he felt himself indebted to that system for the benefit of his own education: still, he could not approve of the present bill, because it was miserably deficient in the means of accomplishing the great object which it seemed to have in view. Besides, it tended to a departure from the great principle of instruction in this country, by taking it in a great measure out of the superintendance and controul of the clergy. Nor were these his only objections; in whatever shape any bill of the kind might appear, he never would agree to any that left matters of this nature to be judged or and decided by the majority of the inhabitants of a parish. To what confusion might not such a mode of decision open a door? Would it not give rise to all the mischiefs of an election, among the majority of the inhabitants of every parish, of whatever description of people they might be composed? What endless litigations! Had there not been, not long since, an example of it in the election of a minister for the parish of Clerkenwell; and had not that contention lasted 7 years at the bar of this house? He had also to object to the clause, which gave to the court of chancery the disposal of the money for these establishments, when it amounted to a certain sum. It should be recollected, how such sums so entrusted were sweated in that court, and how in the end, when the oyster came to be divided, the real owner got nothing but the shells. He could never, therefore, assent to the bill in its present form.
The Archbishop of Canterburytrusted he

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should not be considered as hostile to the principle of diffusing instruction among the poor, although he should oppose the further progress of this measure. In his opinion, the framers of it had no conception of the vastness of the task they had undertaken. Something widely different, indeed, must be done to further and accomplish the object which they seemed to have in view. He had himself bestowed of late no small degree of attention upon this subject, and he proposed to himself to follow it up to a certain extent. His enquiries had already embraced a large district, and for the satisfaction of the house he could affirm, that the advantages of education were extended more generally than it appeared to be thought, and he would venture to say, that in the parish alone in which he resided, these advantages extended to no less a number than 4000. Perhaps, when his plan was more matured, he should have the honour of submitting it to their lordships. In the mean time, he must agree with the noble and learned lords who preceded him, and who truly observed, that the provisions of the bill left little or no controul to the minister in his parish. This would go to subvert the first principles of education in this country, which had hitherto been, and he trusted would continue to be, under the controul and auspices of the establishment, and their lordships would feel how dangerous it might be to innovate in such matters. Their lordships' prudence would, no doubt, guard against innovations that might shake the foundation of our religion, and it would be a chief object of their vigilance and care, "ut castâ maneant in religione nepotes."
Earl Stanhopewas sorry to differ from the right reverend prelate, and several other persons in that house, on wat he must call the abominable principle, that no part of the population of this country ought to receive education unless in the tenets of the established church. Was it reasonable or just to say that the children of catholics, presbyterians, quakers, and all the other innumerable sects of dissenters from the established church in this country, were to be debarred all sources of public education, supported by public benevolence, unless they were to become converts to our established religion? Would the right rev. prelate contend, that because the catholic religion was the established one in Canada, no poor Protestants should be educated there unless he was allowed to be
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brought up a catholic. The noble lord upon the woolsack objected to this bill, lest it might lead to litigation in the court of chancery; he himself had no very great wish to promote litigations in that court; be once had a suit in the chancery of Ireland, which had lasted only 42 years; he had once voted upon an appeal in that house from a chancery suit in England, which had only lasted 500 years, and he was of opinion that the tedious progress and procrastinated decisions of that court, were well described by the story of a man, who, insettling a contest between two beggars aboutan oyster, took the fish to himself, and gave a shell to each of the parties. But, while he entertained no such fears for the result of this bill, he could not see that its purpose had any thing to do with sects of religion. It was merely to teach its objects spelling, reading, writing, and arithmetic for purposes useful in life; and in a manufacturing country like this, when so much of excellence in our productions depended on a clear understanding and some degree of mathematical and mechanical knowledge, which it was impossible to attain without first receiving the rudiments and foundation this bill proposed, the superiority of workmen with some education, over those who had none, must be sensibly felt by all the great manufacturers in the country. His lordship was for committing the bill, rendering it as perfect as possible, sending it forth to the public in that shape, and taking it up again for completion in the next session.—The question was then put on lord Hawkesbury's motion and carried without a division.

IRISH ARMS BILL.
The house resolved itself into a committee on the Irish Arms bill.
Lord Hollandthought it singular that they should have arrived at this stage of a bill of such great importance, without any reasons being alleged to prove the necessity of the measure. Not four-and-twenty hours had elapsed since they had been considering bills, the objects of which were to contribute to arm a large portion of the people, in order to meet the exigencies of the country, and now it formed a singular contrast that they were in a committee on a bill for disarming a large portion of his majesty's subjects in Ireland. He could not suffer a bill of this nature to be proceeded in without again calling the attention of the house to the causes of those discontents which

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rendered these measures of coercion necessary. He did not wish to go over at length the grounds he had before taken when another bill was before the house, but he could not help urging the importance of conciliatory measures as the best mode of allaying the discontents of a large portion of the population of Ireland. When discontents existed amongst a large portion of the people of Scotland, it was proposed to sir Robert Walpole to enlist them into regiments in the service of the country, and give the commands to the principal families who were then hostile to the government. The idea was eagerly seized by that great statesman, but was rejected by the cabinet. Many of those persons afterwards joined the standard of the rebellion. When, however, subsequently, a milder and more conciliatory policy was adopted, that people became loyal and zealous in the service of their country; and finally, all the measures which had been thought necessary to enact were repealed in the administration of the great earl of Chatham. Similar results offered themselves in Hungary, where a large portion of the people, in consequence of being of a religion different from the established church, were kept under degrading restraints that necessarily produced discontents. When, however, those restraints were put an end to, the utmost loyalty and zeal prevailed. With respect to the bill, he thought it placed by far too great powers in the hands of the magistracy of Ireland. The reason which induced him reluctantly to give his consent to a bill recently passed, did not operate in the present instance; that was a measure only to be used in case of necessity; but the present bill was to be continually operating, and might in many instances produce great oppression and hardships, particularly by the powers given to search for arms by night. He did not mean to say, that there might not be cases in which it might be necessary to take arms out of the hands of disaffected persons, but the present bill was in his opinion inadequate to its purpose, as it would operate to produce a greater concealment; the best Mode he thought would be to compel the magistrates to keep a registry of arms, and to grant licences for keeping them. He thought, however, that the bill recently passed for suppressing Insurrections, gave amply sufficient powers to the government, and he did not see the necessity of passing this bill in addition. He should therefore more, that the chair-
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man do leave the chair, meaning afterwards to move to postpone the bill for three months, conceiving that as it could not be many months before parliament would again assemble, there would then be ample time for discussing this subject.
Lord Hawkesburysaid, he had not introduced the bill with any arguments in support of it, because it contained nothing new in its principle or provisions, and not many weeks had elapsed since the principle of this bill had been distinctly recognized by the late administration, who proposed a bill for continuing an act commonly called the Gunpowder act, and which contained provisions equally oppressive, if so they could be called, with the present bill. That bill was passed by which the act was continued for 7 years, whilst it was only proposed to continue the present act for two years. His noble friend had been unfortunate in his allusion to Scotland, as in that country the acts of restraint and coercion had continued for 50 years, and it was only by a steady course of government upon these principles, that the discontents there were at length put an end to; but then they could not be made the subjects of party politics here, as the sources of these discontents was, in this part of the Island, treason. With respect,. however, to mild and conciliatory measures, nothing could have satisfied the discontented in that country, but the restoration of the Pretender. It was only by a steady system of government, together with old prejudices wearing away, that at length the necessity for measures of coercion ceased, and the population of Scotland had since served his majesty with the utmost bravery and loyalty. The circumstances of the two countries were, however, Materially different. It was only of late years that Scotland had been trusted with a national militia, whilst in Ireland there had long been a national militia of high character; and there was a brave and loyal yeomanry; a great number of the population of Ireland were likewise enlisted in the army. He did not wish to enter into a long, discussion of the subject; he should merely observe, that wherever discontents existed, those discontents we re not likely to be decreased by being made the subject of party politics. The necessity of this bill, from what was known of the state of Ireland, he conceived to be obvious.—The motion for the chairman leaving the chair being negatived,
Lord Hardwickeproposed an amendment, for the better promulgation of this law; as he conceived, that in the manner the laws were now promulgated in Ireland, many persons would be completely ignorant of the provisions of this act.
Lord Redesdalesaid, that the registering of arms had been so long the law of Ireland, that it was impossible they could be ignorant of the most important parts of this act. He relied upon the moderation of the magistracy for not abusing the power vested in them.—The amendment was negatived, and the bill passed through the committee.