Lords Sitting of 31 March 1806

MINUTES.
The royal assent was given by commission to the two Exchequer Bills bill, the Felons' Transportation bill, and to several other public and private bills. The commissioners were, the lord chancellor, lord Auckland, lord Walsingham —Lord Grenville rose and moved the order of the day for taking into consideration his majesty's most gracious message, recommending the conferring some signal mark of favour on sir J. T. Duckworth, for the late important service performed by him to the country. His lordship observed, that having so recently had an occasion to direct the attention and admiration of the house to those glorious and useful services, he should not vainly attempt to amplify by words what must be so gratefully felt by their lordships, and by the country at large. He should therefore content himself with moving, that an humble address be presented to his majesty, assuring his majesty, that that house would cheerfully attend
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and give effect to his majesty's most gracious recommendation. The motion was agreed to,nem. diss.

MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS.
Earl Camdenrose to move an address to his majesty, praying for the production of certain papers. They were of two descriptions ; one alluded to the Additional Force bill, and to the number of men raised under its operation in each county and parish; the other referred to the general recruiting service for the different corps of which the army was composed. He should not now enquire, for he could not expect an answer to such a question, whether it was the intention of his majesty's ministers to repeal that bill. He had no wish whatever to provoke or anticipate any discussion respecting the plan that was in preparation for improving and strengthening our military system: the chief object of the motion with which he should conclude, was to collect and have in readiness before the house such information as was likely to bear upon the important question that was soon expected to engage their lordships' attention. He did not foresee any objection to what he should have the honour to propose; but if there was any, he should be ready to couch his motion in what less objectionable terms his majesty's ministers should think proper to suggest. His lordship then concluded with moving, "that an humble address be presented to his majesty, praying that he would be pleased to give directions that there be laid before the house a Return of the number of men raised in each county and parish, conformably to the provisions of the Additional Force bill."
Lord Grenvillehe should have no objection to the motion, provided it was understood that time return moved for not only contained the number of men raised by the provisions of the bill in question, but also a description or explanation of the particular manner in which they had, been raised in each parish. That was the consideration which in his mind would principally bear upon the plan that was to be brought forward, the particulars of which he expected would be known before forty-eight hours had elapsed. Much impatience had been expressed at the delay that had accrued in bringing forward that measure; but it should be recollected how essential it was both to the military service, and to the present circumstances of the, country, that nothing crude and imperfect

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should be hastily thrust forward, but that leisure, thought, and consultation, should be employed in digesting a system that should fairly promise to answer its object, and meet the exigencies of the case; considering the motion in the. point of view in which he had placed it, there should be no opposition to it on his part.
Earl Camdenhad no desire but to obtain such information, as was likely to be useful in the discussion that was so soon to claim their lordships' attention; and he willingly consented it should be understood, that when the return was made, it. should be looked upon not only as indicative of the number of men raised, but also of the particular manner in which they had been raised.— The motion was then put and agreed to. The noble earl next moved, a similar address for the production of several other papers relative to the general recruiting of the Army, which motion was also agreed to.
Lord Hawkesburysaid, that he should have to trouble the house with a few motions, which, in his opinion, would follow up and tend to give a more comprehensive effect to the motions which had just been submitted to the house by his noble friend. The object of them was, first, to obtain a return of the number to which the Volunteer Force of England and Ireland amounted, in the year 1804; and of the number that had been certified to be effectual. He should wish a similar return to be made of the state of the Volunteer Force for the year 1805. It must be obvious that the end he had in view, was to ascertain whether that force had diminished or increased; and how far it might be relied upon to form a part of our military system and means of defence. He was not aware that there could be any objections to these motions, but if there was, he should be ready to adopt any other less objectionable mode of framing them, which any noble lord would take the trouble to suggest.
Lord Grenvillefelt no desire to object to the motions; though, as they now stood worded, he did not well conceive how a satisfactory return could be made in consequence of them. Much would turn on the word "effective;" and a return in that view by the Inspecting Officer. The volunteer force should not be considered in the same light, or under the same regulations as our regular force. He himself, was an officer of Volunteers, and a member of parliament; but in neither capacity
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did he know, that the efficiency of a volunteer corps depended upon the return of an Inspecting Officer. In the parliamentary sense of the word "efficient," as applied to a volunteer, all those were efficient, who had attended the number of days prescribed by the act of parliament, whether among those days of attendance was the day of inspection or not. The Inspecting Officer had no authority to compel the Volunteers of any corps to attend on such days, and it might happen, that fewer attended on the day of inspection than on ordinary days. Besides there were many reasons and circumstances, which when duly weighed, would, he was sure, dissuade the noble lord from pressing his motion in these words; for it would be imposssible for any Inspecting Officer to make any return respecting the greater or less number of efficient men, otherwise than by giving his opinion that such a particular corps was better disciplined than another. The noble lord would also recollect that the Irish Volunteer System was very different in its formation from that which prevailed in Great Britain. To make the same order for both must therefore be productive of confusion, and render it impossible to make any satisfactory return. He hoped, therefore, the noble lord would so word his motion, as to include only Great Britain, and to omit the return by the Inspecting Officer.
The Earl of Roslynobserved, that there might be such an infinite variety of shades of difference between the greater or less degree of perfection in discipline in this or that Volunteer Corps, that it would be utterly impossible to make any general return according to the word "efficient," in the sense in which he supposed the noble lord to understand it.
Lord Hawkesburycould see no difficulty in making the return, but he was still willing to adopt the amendment suggested, to omit Ireland, and to move only for the amount of the number of volunteers during the years he had mentioned, stating also the number that had been returned as efficient. —The question was then put on the motions so amended, and agreed to.

COLONIAL INTERCOURSE WITH AMERICA.
Lord Holland,after adverting to the intention of a noble lord, below him, to bring in a bill relative to this subject, made some observations with respect to the magnitude and importance of the subject, of which it formed a part. He al

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luded to the opinions he had thrown out last session upon the particular topic to which his noble friend's. bill proposed to refer, and expressed his opinion, that further documents. were necessary to bring the true state of the subject before the house. His lordship concluded by moving for a variety of accounts of that description, as, the number of British ships, the tonnage thereof, and the number of men, engaged in the trade between Great Britain and the West Indies, &c. from the year 1790 to 1804, inclusive; and several other documents; which, after a few words from lord Sheffield, were ordered to be laid before the house.
Lord Aucklandthen rose to make his promised motion, which he prefaced by entering into several details. By the navigation acts of Charles II. and William III. all trade to the British Colonies in foreign bottoms was, he said, prohibited. It was evident that the vessels of the United States of America were foreign bottoms, and therefore came under the prohibitory clauses of these acts. From the peace of 1783 to 1788 they were precisely in this situation. In the latter year a legislative measure was resorted to upon the subject, which continued till the year 1793, from which period till the year 1801, the governors of the British Colonies in the West Indies exercised the power of granting, as necessity required, permission to import provisions and lumber from America, and every year a bill was passed to indemnify those concerned in advising or exercising this measure, for their acting contrary to law. It happened, however, that in 1801, owing to the confusion arising from the change of Administration, a bill of this description was omitted to be brought forward, and the subject had escaped attention until the present time, when, on turning to its consideration, he found this to be the state of the case. It became, therefore, necessary to indemnify four administrations, including that now in office, for having thus acted contrary to law since the year 1801, as well as the governors of the West-India Islands; this was the object of the bill, which it was his intention to introduce, and which, he had no doubt, would be supported by all those noble lords who had formed a part of the four administrations to which he had alluded. With respect to the subject itself, it was certainly of the greatest importance that our West-India Colonies should be regularly sup-
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plied with provisions. From the nature of their cultivation they could only grow a very small part of the provisions necessary for their subsistence. He was not disposed to quarrel with the United States of America for supplying the West-India islands with those articles; on the contrary, he was disposed to think it an advantageous intercourse. If the islands were left to depend upon this country for a supply of provisions, it must necessarily, in time of war, be precarious, whilst in the event of scarcity, ships sailing from this country would, of course, go to those islands where they expected to get the highest prices, and probably pass those which were most in want. A regular supply of provisions to our West-India islands could only be ensured to them from America, and his opinion was, that the enactment of our laws ought not to be followed up with any view of preventing the Americans from deriving an advantage from the intercourse. The neutral bottoms of the Americans were of use to us in time of war; the advantage was mutual. The United States of America had grown with our growth, and strengthened with our strength, and had contributed much to the increase of our commerce; a commerce which had arisen to an unexampled pitch of prosperity, and which was greatly superior now to what it ever had been, even in time of peace. Thus it appeared from official documents, that the value of the exports from this country of British manufactures, which on the average of the five years, ending in 1793, amounted to 15,400,000 l. amounted, on the average of the five years ending in 1805, to 25,600,000 l. He thought it would be advisable to introduce some regulation, in order that the intercourse between our West-India colonies and America, might be placed upon a more certain footing: this might be effected by authorizing the governors to issue proclamations from time to time, allowing the importation from America, each proclamation to be in force for six months, which would ensure a more regular supply, there being a certainty that no interruption would take place during that period. His majesty's late ministers, to whom, in this instance, he did not mean to impute the least blame, had sent out a circular letter to the governors in the West Indies, requiring them not to grant a permission for importation from America, on light and trivial grounds. Some of them took an alarm, and put a

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stop to the importation altogether, which had the effect of enormously raising the price of provisions. It was, however, fit that the intercourse, which was necessary, at least in time of war, to the comfort and well being of our West-India colonies, should be regulated by an act of the legislature, and that the governors of our islands should not be reduced to the necessity of continually acting in violation of the law, or ministers at home, of continually advising such violations. He concluded by presenting a bill to indemnify all persons concerned in advising or ordering measures for importing certain articles into the West-India islands from America, in American vessels ; which was read a first time.
The Duke of Montroseconcurred with much of what had been said by the noble lord. He thought, however, that with the aid of convoys, the West Indies might, even in time of war, be supplied from this country; but admitted that a supply so sent would be precarious. In time of peace, however, the question assumed a far different shape, as he conceived there was no doubt that our West-India islands could then be supplied regularly from this country. He objected to the trade between America and the West Indies on account of its giving rise to smuggling to a great extent, and of its enabling the Americans to import into our colonies the produce of the East Indies at a low rate, thereby excluding the merchants of this country froth a beneficial source of trade. When he heard the noble lord speak of the advantages of neutral bottoms, he hoped his majesty's ministers had not formed a similar opinion with respect to the trade carries on by America between the enemy's colonies and the mother country. The confining our West-India islands to procure a supply of provisions by means of British vessels in time of peace, would be all means of employing a great number of British seamen, whilst it would prove a beneficial source of commerce to this country, the advantages of which ought not lightly to be given up.
Lord Sheffieldobserved, he was not prepared, at present, not being exactly aware of the line of argument, and calculation, which the noble lord intended to go into; otherwise, he thought he could controvert a great deal of what the noble lord had advanced.
Lord Hollanddeprecated our entering
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into any war of regulations with the United States of America, respecting an intercourse which tended to mutual advantage. He could not conceive that the confining, our West-India islands to a supply in British vessels would be of that advantage to this country which the noble duke had stated; the seamen employed in such a trade were not of that description to be useful to this country, neither would building ships here for the purpose of sending to America to purchase provisions to carry to the West Indies repay the expence. He trusted that parliament would never again try the experiment which was productive of so much misery to our West-India colonies, in the period from 1784 to 1786, when their supply from America was cut off, and in consequence of which, in Jamacia alone, 15,000 negroes died, from the famine which that regulation produced.
The Duke of Montrosecontended, that in time of peace an exclusive trade to our West-India islands, in British vessels, would be the means of employing a great number of our seamen, who would otherwise be unemployed.
Lord Grenvilleobserved, that the question as to what might or might not be politic or expedient, with respect to the trade to our West-India islands in time of peace, was wholly foreign to the question now before the house. Whatever opinion might be entertained on the former point, is was clear that in time of war, a necessity existed for allowing the Americans to supply our West-India islands with provisions; at all events, he was not disposed to hazard a speculation of confining the source of supply of British vessels, when the subsistence of near a million of persons inhabiting a most important part of the British empire was at stake. He suggested that it would be most expedient to adopt a legislative regulation, which might be done by a clause in the present bill, authorising his majesty in council, to direct his majesty's governors in the West Indies to issue proclamations from time to time, each proclamation to be in force for six months, allowing the importation of provisions and lumber in American vessels. He was decidedly of opinion that some legislative regulation ought to be enacted upon the subject and that the system of continually violating the law and passing bills of indemnity, ought not to be continued.
Lord Auckland,in facther explanation,

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observed, a clause may easily be introduced in the committee, to the effect intimated by his noble friend; and in consequence of an observation of the Duke of Montrose, said it was his intention to propose to have the bill printed.-?The bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be printed.