Lords Sitting of 13 June 1806

MINUTES.
In the appeal Seymour v. the earl of Euston and lord Henry Seymour, Mr. Richards was heard for the respondents, after which the further consideration of it was postponed till the next day.—The royal assent was given by commission to the Property Duty bill, the Irish Sugar bill, the Irish Stamp Duties bill, the Irish Additional Force Repeal bill, and several private bills. The commissioners were the lord Chancellor, lord Walsingham, and lord Auckland.—Lord H.Petty, and several other members of the house of commons, brought up a message, stating that the house of commons requested a conference with their lordships, on a subject in which the reputation of the country, and the interests of humanity, justice, and sound policy, were deeply concerned. The house agreed to a conference presently in the painted chamber, of which the messengers from the commons being called in, were informed. A committee was appointed to manage the conference.—The house being informed that the commons waited the conference in
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the painted chamber, the committee appointed to manage it, consisting of the duke of Norfolk, earls of Radnor and Romney, lord Falmouth, the bishop of St. Asaph, lords Holland, Keith, Dundas, Ellenborough and Lauderdale, went forth to the painted chamber. Shortly afterwards they returned; when the duke of Norfolk reported that the commons had communicated to them a certain resolution relative to the Abolition of the Slave Trade.

MUTINY BILL.
The order being read, for going into a committee on the above bill, the house resolved itself into the same accordingly, lord Walsingham in the chair.—After a short previous conversation, of an explanatory nature, between the earls of Westmoreland and Spencer, as to the regular mode of discussing the provision or enactment of the bill, which it appeared was in one of the schedules,
The Earl of Westmorelandrose, and in a speech of considerable length, expressed his objections to the clause alluded to. He contended that it was an invasion of the royal prerogative, inasmuch as it prescribed the exact term for which men should be enlisted to serve in the army, and precluded his majesty from enlisting men upon any other condition. This was an abridgement of the power and an infringement of the prerogative of the crown, by taking from the king that power over the army which had hitherto been constitutionally vested in the crown. A measure too which went to change the whole constitution of the army, was introduced in the shape of a clause in the Mutiny bill, thus leaving that house no choice but between the dangerous nature of the experiment attempted to be tried, and the inconveniencies which would result from the disorganization of the army in consequence of not passing the Mutiny bill. Thus also would his majesty be called upon to sacrifice a material portion of his power and his prerogative, because it would be said that the Mutiny bill must be passed or else the army could not be kept together. Those who on a former occasion advised his majesty not to give his assent to a bill which went to abridge the king's prerogative, but the refusal to sanction which only left things as they were, could not now say that no other consequence would result than leaving things as they were, they might say, your ministers have made a bill different to that which your majesty ordered to be brought in, but a Mutiny bill must be sanctioned or the army cannot exist.
Earl Spencerspoke to order. The noble

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earl had, he said, no right to state, that his majesty had ordered a bill to be brought in.
The Earl of Westmorelandproceeded. The present measure was, he said, of the same character with those before proposed by an administration, in which it was said so much of the talent and ability of the country was concentrated. To judge of their measures ex pede Herculem, it was Hercules With his club, acting the part of a destroyer, and not as a renovator; former measures were done away and destroyed, but where were the substitutes? He professed the highest respect for the noble lord at the head of his majesty's government, for his ability, his integrity, and his anxious desire to serve his country. For the head of the administration he had the highest respect, but he did not like the stern of it; he did not like the principles of the stern; he feared their operation. With respect to the measure which was more immediately the subject of deliberation in the committee, wonderful effects, it had been predicted, would be produced by its operation. It had been said in other places, that the condition of the army would be improved, its strength increased, that bounties would decrease, and desertions be diminished. He did not believe that any such benefits would result from the measure. How was it possible, that under the proposed regulations relative to limited service, the army could be kept up? Taking the whole number of the army at 200,000 men, enlisted for limited service, as proposed, at the end of 7 years, and every year afterwards a seventh part of that number must be discharged, amounting to about 28,000 men; this, added to the waste of men in the course of a year, amounting to about 12,000, would make up the number of 40,000 men to be recruited every year, and how was it possible to raise such a number of men in this country in the course of one year? He was thoroughly convinced that the army could not be kept up in that manner without having recourse to a military conscription, or some compulsory measure of that description. Such a measure as that now proposed would, besides, give rise to a system of continual recruiting, drunkenness, and canvas for the purpose of inducing men whose terms were near expiring to enlist again. He begged pardon for trespassing so long upon the committee and preventing the noble master general of the ordnance (ld Moira) from rising, who he was sure would oppose this measure and would tell their lordships that by the effect of this measure the artillery would be destroyed; who would tell them that men in that corps, from
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the experience they gained in the course of 7 years of service, became expert engineers, and were capable of obtaining great emolument in various ways, and who would not therefore stay a moment longer than the expiration of the first term of service. That noble lord would therefore doubtless tell the Committee, that under the operation of such a measure the artillery could not be kept up. What, likewise, would be the effect upon our colonial service? Was he to understand that in the West Indies, after giving 70l. or 80l. for slaves to form black regiments, that those persons, after their terms of service had expired, were to be thrown loose upon society, and under the measure now proposed, his majesty would not have the power to retain them? How, also, would it affect the troops sent out to our colonies? It would be impossible for the commanders to ascertain with any precision the number of men it would be necessary continually to replace; they might send for a number of men instead of those whose terms were near expiring, whilst in the mean time those whose terms of service were longer, might be carried off by disease. The regiments also, whose terms of service were near expiring, would hesitate to go to a distant clime on any emergency. Another objection also arose from the effect which such a measure would have upon the army as already constituted. Men whose services were for life could scarcely see without jealousy others by their side whose terms of service were continually expiring, and who Were thus enabled to return to their families. These objections pressed forcibly on his mind, and operated directly against this measure, which had been rejected after mature deliberation by his right hon. friend deceased (Mr. Pitt), who was then at the head of administration; and he trusted the modern Alexanders would pay some respect to the plans of Philip. He concluded by moving to leave out all the words of the oath which contained the limitation of service.
Earl Spencersaid, he wished to state shortly to their lordships the reasons which induced him to support the proposed plan of limited service. He thought, in reasoning upon this subject, that it was impossible to draw any other conclusion, than that men would be much more readily induced to enlist into the army for 7 or for 10 years, with the prospect of being enabled to return to their families at the expiration of that period, crowned with laurels, and enjoying those benefits which this measure held out to them, than to enlist for life, and of course without

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any such prospect. It was a necessary conclusion drawn from experience and observation of human nature. The relations and friends of those inclined to enlist would besides rather encourage, or at least not throw obstacles in the way of such an inclination as they were disposed to do under the present system, where the man was taken from them for life. The operation of this principle would, he thought, continue to fill the ranks of the army in succession, as the terms of service of others expired, and would induce many of a better class to enlist where there was a certainty of their being enabled to return to the bosom of their families, or resort to other occupations, at the expiration of a certain fixed period. The noble lord had argued as if it would become impossible if the present measure was carried into effect, to have men for a longer period of service; but surely there was in this case no obstacle, the man enlisted for the first term of service might again enlist for the next term, and continue to engage himself for the remainder of his life. The noble lord, in the beginning of his speech, had,argued, that this measure was an invasion of the king's prerogative. It was certainly true that the power of the sword, as it was called, rested with the king; but it unquestionably belonged to parliament to limit that power. There were acts of parliament on the statute book which actually prescribed the exact term for which certain troops therein mentioned should be raised, and beyond which there was no power to retain them. This was the case in two acts, one of the 18th Geo. II. and the other the 29th Geo. II. in the latter of which a certain force was to be raised for 5 years; and it was remarkable that the year in which this was done, 1756, was the first year of the seven-years war, and that the five years consequently expired before the termination of that war, yet no reference was made to that circumstance. Many other acts might be quoted, most of which were in their lordships' recollection, and therefore he would not state them, the object of which was to raise troops for limited service. It had therefore clearly been the practice of parliament to limit, in this respect, the prerogative of the crown, and nothing more was attempted in the principle of this measure than what had been done before by parliament upon various occasions. He was clearly of opinion that this measure would operate to decrease the bounties and diminish desertion. Men would be induced to enlist for a certain and fixed term, and that not a long one, for a much less sum
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than when the enlistment was for life; and as to desertion there would certainly be less temptation to desert when the soldier was sure of returning to his family at the expiration of that period; and when, besides that, in case of desertion, he would lose all the benefits which otherwise would attach, if he conducted himself well during his period of service. As to expence, he did not think there was any objection, as he had no idea that the expence of raising men in the manner proposed could be nearly s great as the mode of raising them at present followed, whilst at the same time there was every reason to believe, that the vacancies occasioned by the expiration of the terms of service would be easily filled up from the operation of those principle in the minds of men which were always operative, and which would meet with a stimulus from the effect of the measure now proposed, As to the noble lord's observation upon his majesty's ministers, he should merely say, that he contributed his humble abilities to the service of his country, in conjunction with those with whom he had the honour to act, and whom, he was confident, were only actuated by an anxious zeal to promote the welfare and happiness of their country.
Lord Boringdomargued against the clause, on the ground of its being unnecessary, and not called for by the state of the army. At any rate, he thought that the measure ought rather to have originated as a boon from his majesty, in which case it might have been first tried upon a small scale, than to be at once extended to the whole constitution of the army. The measure also appeared to him defective, inasmuch as there was no provision made for those who, by being disbanded at the conclusion of a war, were precluded from serving the whole of their term of service; and he thought it was a little too much to say that they were to pass this measure, and leave it to ministers to bring other measures forward afterwards to correct its defects.
The Earl of Carnarvondeprecated the doctrine which had been attempted to be set up, of the power of the sword vesting in the crown without the controul of parliament. The command of the army undoubtedly vested in the crown, but the limitation of the military force of the kingdom unquestionably remained with parliament. He considered the present measure as tending materially to improve the condition of the army, and not liable to any of those objections which had been raised against it.
The Duke of Montroseopposed the clause,

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as limiting the exercise of the royal prerogative. He conceived that it would operate as a bounty to induce men to leave the regiment to which they belonged, at the expiration of their term of service, since by doing so, they might be entitled to as large a bounty as they had at first received, by entering into another regiment. He contended, that, in the present state of society, a better description of men would not, in consequence of limited service, be induced to enter the army.
The Duke of Gloucesterwarmly supported the measure. Many officers of eminence and reputation with whom he had conversed, in those counties in which he had travelled, had given their opinions decidedly in favour of limited service, which they considered as productive of the most beneficial consequences to an army. He was also decidedly of the same opinion, and he considered such a mode of enlistment as peculiarly congenial to this country, where freedom was the birthright of its inhabitants, where the love of freedom animated them in all their contests and inspirited all their exertions. Nothing was more clearly convincing to his mind than that enlistment for a fixed term of years, as proposed in the present measure, would operate as a strong inducement to many who would not otherwise venture to enlist; and when they returned to their homes and related the battles in which they had been engaged, the glories which had been achieved, the laurels they had won, and the benefits they had received, it would be a still stronger inducement for their younger relatives to enter into a service where they had the same prospects of honour and reward, and returning in the same manner to their families. If only ten men in a regiment returned in this way to their families, the benefit to the army produced by this means would be incalculable.
Earl Grosvenorsaid, that the plans hitherto tried had failed effectually to recruit the army. It was therefore necessary to resort to some new means of effecting that desirable object, and upon this principle he supported the present measure, which seemed to promise the accomplishment of a purpose so much wished for.
Earl Camdenopposed the measure, and warmly supported the amendment.
The Earl of Limerickcontended, that our colonial service was peculiarly incompatible with limited service, since before the soldier became seasoned to the climate, he might become entitled to his discharge; and thus our colonies might be perpetually
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supplied with raw soldiers, to whom the climate was peculiarly fatal. From his own experience he had found, that were a higher description of persons to enter the army, it would not contribute to its subordination and discipline. He had found, that those who could read and write were often the most troublesome, and most inclined to faction. Besides, it was not to be supposed that those who had enjoyed the comforts of life would readily submit, without murmuring and discontent, to those privations to which the soldier must necessarily be exposed.
Lord kingobserved, that it was not wished to introduce a higher class of men into the army, but only the more considerate and reflecting of that class, who now entered it as soldiers. This would add both to the numbers and discipline of the army.
The Earl of Buckinghamshiresupported the bill in its present shape, which, in fact, he thought no more militated against the royal prerogative, than any of the Mutiny bills their lordships were in the habit of passing yearly.
Lord Hardwickeopposed it, and noticed the slight effects produced by limited service during the American war, as a proof that little was to be expected from this new system.
Lord Rosslynthought, that the only way of rendering unnecessary the present high bounties, and of removing the odium under which the military life so generally laboured, was by ameliorating the condition of the soldier, and this the present clause was eminently calculated to promote. High bounties were one great cause of the desertions which had so much prevailed of late, and if the cause were removed, which could only be done by some measure similar to the present, the effect would cease of course. At present, nothing but the event of his being disabled, could give the soldier the hope of retirement; and it was not to be expected, that considerate men, or indeed any but the thoughtless, or those driven by necessity, would prefer being tied up for life, to limited service. As to canvassing between the officer and soldier, he was confident, that British officers would never degrade themselves by permitting any relaxation of discipline, to induce their men to continue in the service. They were convinced, that the attachment of the soldier could only be gained by fair and liberal conduct, and by the strict and impartial exercise of discipline.
Lord Hawkesburydeclared, that notwith-

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standing all he had heard from the noble earl who had spoken last, and the other noble lords who preceded him, (and the opinions of some of them he knew were entitled to considerable weight) notwithstanding all the arguments which he had heard so ably advanced, in support of the system which was to be founded on a clause in the bill now before their lordships, he had not heard reasons stated, which were capable of effacing from his mind the impression which it had previously received, namely, that this was, in its very essence, a most dangerous, and might possibly be in its consequences, an almost ruinous system. Artillery, cavalry, and infantry, foreigners and native subjects, white men and blacks were all to be disbanded at the expiration of the term of seven years. He was well aware that it was utterly impossible that any thing like a general discharge could take place at any given time; but then it was within the line of probability that great numbers would have completed their term of service nearly at the same time, and must necessarily be discharged just at the eve of the breaking out of a war. This would be such a case as would most seriously affect the interest (though he would always place the utmost confidence in the loyalty and bravery) of the nation, yet it was possible that the occurrence of such an event might endanger the safety of the country. It was wise and politic for statesmen to be guarded at all times against even a distant possibility of such danger, and he conceived it to be unwise and impolitic in ministers to make such an innovation on our military system as this was, during a period of war. The manner he thought peculiarly liable to censure, as by the system being introduced in the form of a clause in the Mutiny bill, which was within ten days of expiring, their lordships must either agree to this plan, or subject themselves to the painful feeling that they had left the state without a mutiny bill at a period of war.
Lord Hollandobserved, that after the able and elegant speech which had been made in favour of the measure by the illustrious person whom he had in his eye (the duke of Gloucester), a speech which must have made an indelible impression on the minds of all who heard it, he was surprised that the noble lords on the other side should have persisted in their objections. He then adverted to the necessity of increasing our army, in opposition to a noble lord who had said that our disposable force was already great enough. In order to attain this ob-
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ject, we must now have recourse to a measure simple in itself, but likely to be most powerful in its effects, after all the nostrums which had been tried and had failed. This country ought to have more than its money to depend upon in order to secure it from danger, and to maintain its respectability. The effects of subsidies had already been seen. It had been said that this country was now in the zenith of its glory. It might be so, perhaps, for it was one of the effects of a burning sun to have no shadow, and certainly our sun had lately left no shadow of glory to those upon whom it had lately shone. A noble lord had compared our volunteers, for whom he certainly had the greatest respect, to the Macedonian's phalanx. The comparison was not a happy one, but we had undoubtedly lately followed the system of Philip, and depended more on our gold than on the force of our arms. There was this difference, however, that his gold led to victory, ours to defeat. He denied that this was any infringement of the prerogative, which no one could be more anxious to defend than he would be, because he thought that its security was necessary for the safety of the liberties of the people. It had been said by some noble lords, that the present ministers had got into the Elysium, for which they had long been anxious, and that they could not conduct themselves with moderation. The noble lords on the other side were in the seats of sorrow and suffering; but they were not, it appeared, without some consolation, for one of them had hinted a sort of hope that ministers might do something which would restore him to his fields again. When his friends therefore should be disposed to solicit his favour, he might, perhaps, console them as Falstaff did justice Shallow, when in great anxiety about his thousand pounds—"Trust me, Master Shallow, I shall be sent for anon." But as those who were in Elysium were said to be employed in the same pursuits which engaged their attention while alive, so ministers followed the same course which they had recommended when their recommendation had not such a good chance of being attended to. He defended the measure on the grounds of its humanity, as it would almost remove the temptation to desertion, and the punishments consequent upon it. It would improve the character of the army, and spread a great number of veterans over the country, who would be of the greatest service in case of its being the seat of war. It was not a mere speculative theory, for the thing had been

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tried and found effectual in other countries. As to the colonial service, he mentioned that in the Spanish army, those only who enlisted for a limited period were sent to the colonies. He concluded by expressing his conviction that this measure would produce the most essential advantages.
The Earl of Moira,in allusion to what had fallen from a noble earl (Westmoreland) early in the debate, begged to express his thanks to the noble earl for the speech he had been so good as to make for him, as expressive of the terrors he was supposed to feel for the ruin of the artillery corps from this measure. He really did not recollect that he had ever entertained any such sentiments, and he trusted noble lords would do him the justice to believe the language was not his. He really had no such terrors; and so far was he from having cause to feel such apprehensions, that he was convinced nothing would be a greater punishment to an artillery-man, than to dismiss him from the service, and deprive him of the many advantageous prospects of preferment in his view. The boys now inlisted for the artillery service, were turned over to the battalions as they attained proper size, and were of course enlisted for life. The term of 12 years limitation could only operate on those who enlisted hereafter, and could have no effect for 12 years to come; and with respect to the general term of limited enlistment, he would read a letter to their lordships from experienced and practical, not from speculative authority, from a general officer now in our service, but formerly, and for 20 years, in the service of the nation in Europe most analogous to our own, namely, that of Holland. This letter stated, that during 20 years of that officer's service, there were 72 battalions of the Dutch army, serving both at home and in their distant colonies, in which it was the uniform practice to enlist the men for limited periods of 3, 6, and 9 years, without any other stipulations than that their discharges should only be demanded in the month of October, or at the end of a campaign, consequently during a war; and that no inconvenience whatever had arisen from the usage. He then adverted to the wonderful effects which the seats on the opposite side seemed to have had on some of the noble lords, when they produced sentiments and feelings so unusual. As to the point of the prerogative, that had been so clearly treated by the illustrious person near him (the duke of Gloucester), that it was scarcely necessary to say thing further
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about it. He expressed his satisfaction at having heard from a person of his high rank, a speech which displayed such a truly British spirit; a spirit which he hoped this measure would spread over the country. A noble lord had rather indiscreetly hinted that a certain personage ought to have those about him who would be anxious to preserve the prerogative unimpaired—he said, rather indiscreetly, because the hint almost entirely destroyed the merit which he might have otherwise claimed for his zeal for the prerogative. As to the military opinions of officers, he thought that it would not have been proper to have produced them, for it would be natural for other officers to ask, Who were the favoured few who were thus consulted and whose opinions were to regulate the army? But in measures of this sort, officers ought not to be taught that their opinions were to guide the conduct of government or that of parliament. The distinctive character of soldiers ought always to be preserved. They ought always to be taught to keep in mind that they were the instruments to execute, and not the springs to set in motion. If you invited them often to that house, you would find that they would at last come without being invited. They would first come by petition and then by remonstrance. He concluded by stating the necessity of having a larger regular army than we had ever had before, and by expressing his conviction that in order to secure this desirable object the present plan was the only one which offered even a chance of success.
Lord Mulgraveexpressed his astonishment at the opinion expressed by the noble lord, who was himself a soldier, and of justly high character, as to what might be the consequence to, or the disposition excited in the minds of military men, by being called to give their evidence at their lordships' bar; and he totally denied the justice of the inference. With respect to the bill, he was a friend to its principle, but feared it would be inefficacious, and ought only to be tried partially as an, experiment.
Lord Grenvillerose with the sincerest satisfaction to recommend most earnestly to their lordships the adoption of a measure of which, for many years past, he had entertained the most perfect conviction, that it was the only measure likely to become permanently efficacious in keeping up the necessary force of the country, under the unfortunate necessity that of late years had been imposed upon the countries of Europe, of keeping up large armies; and as most

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congenial to the spirit and feelings of Englishmen. It had been asked early in the debate, what statesman with a statesman's mind, had ever proposed to any country such a measure for adoption? He would declare the statesman on whose authority he would offer the measure. It was that consummate statesman (Mr. Pitt) whose irreparable loss the country so recently had to deplore. It was from him that he had learned the principle. It was one which he knew occupied his great mind, and was decisive in his opinion for very many years. There was not a single argument that had been offered against the bill in the course of this debate, that had not been urged by himself against the principle to that great statesman, in repeated discussions between them on this subject, and that was not ably and convincingly answered by his right hon. and lamented friend. He had considered, with the most mature deliberation, the subject over and over again, and the more he considered it, the more thoroughly was he convinced of its propriety. As to the measure being an invasion of the royal prerogative, he was astonished to hear it asserted, particularly by those who had had so much share in the military measures of the last four years. Could it be pretended that any army which was to be maintained in this country could be maintained independently of parliamentary sanction and controul? The king incontestibly and by the first principles of the constitution possessed the command of every species of military force; but that force was subject to the regulations of pay, controul, &c. which parliament directed. Nay, after we had seen that the very regulations as to limited service had been adopted as to what constituted peculiarly our home defence, would it be pretended that it was unconstitutional that the regular army, that which might be employed abroad, should be enlisted on terms which had been sanctioned in the other? It was in vain therefore to say, that this was an invasion of the royal prerogative, and hostile to the constitution. Indeed, after the able and convincing speech of an illustrious person (the duke of Gloucester) that night, it was clear what were the sentiments entertained by every branch of the family on the throne on this point. Never since that illustrious house sat on the throne had any pretention been countenanced of an army not subject to parliamentary controul.—His lordship then entered into a consideration of several of the objections, particularly as
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to the expence of the plan. He argued that it might be assumed as a doctrine, that of the persons surviving at the different periods when their service expired, one half would re-enlist. Of 120,000 men at the average casualty of one in twelve, 10,000 men a year were necessary; which would be 200,000l. calculating that one half re-enlisted, there would only be 16,000 wanted a year, and that not till the expiration of 15 years, and the additional part of the expence could not occur in full extent till after 30, so that the whole benefit was obtained before the expence of recruiting commenced. Thus, instead of two or three millions, the expence of recruiting would not be above 200,000l. at first, or afterwards 300,000l. at 20l. a man. As to the expence of future provision, it was grossly exaggerated, and if there was any addition of expence, it was a fair remuneration to the veteran, which, in consideration of the expence of living, &c. would, independently of this measure, have been fairly due. In a constitutional view too, the measure was highly advantageous as giving the soldier new motives of attachment to the civil liberties of the country, to which he would always look with a consciousness that they were his. The peculiar advantage of this measure, too, was, that it was clear, short, and intelligible. The people of this country could not mistake it. It would teach them, by a sort of knowledge, that a soldier was not placed for life in a situation different from the rest of the community, but that after having served his country, he was at liberty to re-enter the civil state if he pleased. The measure required no lawyer to explain it; it demanded no recruiting officer to catechise parish officers. It called upon no secretary of state to read voluminous lectures on acts of parliament; but would impress itself on the feelings of the people at large, and while it increased the numbers of the army, would preserve and increase its constitutional spirit. His lordship concluded by expressing his strongest approbation of the measure as simple, constitutional and efficient.—The Committee then divided on the clause: For it 91: Against it 34. Majority 57.—The house was then resumed, the report received and agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Monday.