Lords Sitting of 11 June 1806

Minutes.
Their lordships proceeded further in the Appeal "Seymour v. the earl of Euston and lord Henry Seymour." Mr. Perceval was heard on the part of the respondents, after which the further consideration of the appeal was postponed till Friday.—The Earl of Elgin took the oaths and his seat.—Earl Stanhope rose to address the house with respect to the form of proceeding the next day in Westminster Hall. Upon which strangers were excluded, and the discussion continued for near two hours.—Lord Eldon presented a petition from W. Watson, esq. the serjeant at arms, stating the inadequacy of the emoluments attached to the office, which were unequal to the expenditure necessary in executing its duties; and praying for such relief as the house should think fit. His lordship supported the object of the petition, and was seconded by Earl Spencer. The petition was ordered to be referred to a committee on Monday.—An undefended appeal having been heard and decided upon, Lord Eldon took the oportunity of giving notice, that he should, next session, bring forward some measure respecting costs in appeals, as at present the house could not award more than 200l, although the expences might actually amount to 7 or 800l. It then became an object with some persons to appeal to that house, merely for the purpose of gaining time, in cases where the interest of the money in the mean time, before the appeal could be. heard, rendered the costs to be ultimately paid a matter of little consequence. The, Lord Chancellor said, it was a great abuse, and ought to be remedied.

MILITARY OPINIONS RELATING TO THE ARMY,
Lord Hawkesburyadverted to the opinions which had been given by several general officers on the subject of enlisting for a term of years, and which, he said, had been called for in consequence of an opinion entertained by members of the late and preceding administrations that such an alteration in the mode of enlistment would be productive of benefit to the army. In consequence, however, of. the tenor of the opinions which were given to his royal highness the Commander in Chief on being then called for, the idea of proposing enlistment for a term, of years was abandoned. The present administration had, without any additional grounds whereon to found an

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opinion, adopted a contrary sentiment, and he was anxious that the house should be in possession of those opinions of military officers to which he alluded, in order that noble lords might clearly see the grounds on which the late administration had formed a deliberate opinion entirely inimical to enlisting for a term of years, and those on which the bill before the house must rest He saw no good ground of objection to the production of these papers; but if there was any to laying them before the house in detail, he believed there was an. abstract of the opinions and statements contained in them in the office of his royal highness the Commander hi Chief, which might be considered an official paper, and which would answer the desired purpose. His lordship concluded by moving for an humble address to his Majesty, praying that copies of the opinions alluded to might be laid before the house.
The Earl of Moiraconsidered the production of the opinions alluded to as unnecessary and improper. He had, amongst other officers, been called upon for his opinion, in a letter from his royal highness the Commander in Chief, which was marked 'confidential,' and to which he gave an answer, containing his opinion upon the subject, but which he had not the most distant supposition was ever to be laid before parliament. The same idea might probably influence most of the officers who gave their opinions; and who, not conceiving that their sentiments, thus confidentially given, were ever to be made public, might give their opinions in a diffuse and prolix style, or in a manner very different to that which they would have done, had they conceived that their letters were to be laid before parliament; he thought, therefore, it would be indelicate to drag forward opinions, thus privately and confidentially given, before a public assembly, and where the far greater part of the officers who had pronounced such opinions would have no opportunity of explaining their sentiments. Most of these opinions also were those of military men, and not of statesmen; they related to the effect on the interior discipline of regiments, which the measure proposed in the bill before the house might produce, rather than to those enlarged views upon the subject which must necessarily be entertained in that house. He could not, therefore, perceive any good that could be produced, by agreeing to the motion of the noble lord, whilst, at the same time, be deprecated any
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attempt to influence their lordships' minds by the opinions of others; above all, he protested against the idea started by the noble lord, of laying upon the table a paper from the Commander in Chief, in order to influence their lordships' opinions. However high the respect he entertained for that illustrious personage, he must protest against any motion of that description.
The Duke of Montrosecontended, that the papers moved for by his noble friend ought to be produced, in order that many noble lords who had not had an opportunity of considering the question in the manner in which it had come before the late ministers, might see distinctly the grounds on which they had acted, in abandoning that measure, which was now brought forward by his majesty's present ministers. He thought also that the opinions of the officers who had been called upon, having been given in the manner in which they were to the Commander in Chief, might fairly be laid before parliament without the slightest indelicacy towards these officers.
The Earl of Suffolkspoke shortly against the motion, and expressed his opinion, that as other means had failed, it was proper to try the experiment of recruiting the army by means of enlisting for a term of years.
Lord Mulgravethought a different interpretation ought to be put upon the word "confidential" to that given by the noble earl (Moira). From the letters being marked 'confidential,' he should have conceived that it was only intended that the officers receiving them were not to mention the subject to others, or make it a matter of general conversation, but not that they were to call upon the Commander in Chief to keep their opinions secret after they had delivered them. He, as one of the officers called upon, had given air opinion favourable to enlistment for a term of years, but, at the same time, an opinion to which the measure now before the house had scarcely any similarity. He was of opinion that the reason given by the noble earl why the papers ought not to be produced was the very reason why they ought, namely, that in general they were only the opinions of military officers, and not those of statesmen. The house was too enlightened to require opinions from others as to general measures of legislation; but on a subject like the present they wanted military information, and that would be afforded by the production of these papers.
Lord Grenvilleconceived that the ques-

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tion had been much mistated by the noble lords who spoke of those military opinions as information which ought to be laid before the house. As to information, generally speaking, it meant a communication of evidence and of fact, and not merely the opinions of other men. It would be an unprecedented thing for the house to acquire argumentative opinions of those who where not members, in order to influence their determination. It was the duty of his majesty's ministers to collect all the information they could derive from every source, before they brought forward the measures they were to propose; and when those measures were brought forward, it was their duty to support them by their own arguments, and not by the authority of other persons, or the influence of the names of men who where not members. If such a course could be permitted on the present occasion, a similar practice might prevail on almost every other occasion, and the house would have nothing else to do but to listen to the argumentative opinions of other people. He conceived also, that it must be most disagreeable to the military officers themselves, to have a written opinion of theirs argued in a deliberative assembly, where they had no opportunity of explaining the principles upon which it was founded; and he thought the general officers, who had given those opinions, were too well acquainted with the constitution of the country, to suppose that their opinions had been demanded for the purpose of giving to parliament their ideas about the internal and political state of the country at the present crisis.—The motion was put and negatived.