Lords Sitting of 29 April 1806

MINUTES.
The house met at 10, and about 11 proceeded to Westminster-hall, to attend the trial of lord viscount Melville.—The bills on the table were previously forwarded in their respective stages. Amongst these, the 3 million Exchequer Bills bill, the Tea Duty bill, the Irish Bank Note bill, and the Irish House Tax Repeal bill, were read a third time and passed.—Their lordships returned to the house about a quarter before four.—Strangers were for some time excluded, during which an order was made to proceed on the trial of lord Melville the next morning, and a message was ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

WITNESSES' DECLARATORY BILL.
The house then took into consideration the amendments made by the Commons in the Declaratory bill respecting the liability of Witnesses to answer. A conversation of considerable length ensued, in which lords Eldon, Hawkesbury, Holland, Ellenborough, and the lord chancellor; the earls of Suffolk, Rosslyn, and Stanhope; and the duke of Norfolk, took a part.
Lord Hawkesburymoved,"that the farther consideration of the amendments be post-

951
poned till to-morrow;" in order that the attendance on a topic of such importance should be fuller, and to afford certain peers, who, he had reason to think, wished to speak, an opportunity of delivering their sentiments.
Lord Eldonthought the bill wanted some farther alteration or amendment, not deeming it, in its present shape, a bill declaratory of the law, as declared by the learned judges, or the greater part of them; or according to their conceptions of what the law really was, as he had an opportunity of knowing, from a personal communication with some of them. Its tenour was different from that of other declaratory bills, for it went to declare, not what the law was, but what the law was not. He thought, under what had been thrown out on the subject, they should pause, and not pass the bill in its present shape. It involved legal considerations of the greatest importance, and in a way likely to affect many of their lordships, for instance, those who were great landed proprietors. The word "only" in the bill, on which so much stress had been laid, as rendering the declaration sufficiently definite, and as likely to prove a sufficient guide for the judges in the courts below, he thought would not be so efficacious, and in the interval proposed, he thought he should be able to determine upon some further amendments, which would produce the desired effect.
Lords Holland, Stanhope, and other peers, defended the bill, under the circumstances of the case, as it now stood, and were adverse to any further delay to its passing, which they contended ought speedily to take place; it was also observed, that the bill with the amendments had lain on the table for several days, and noble lords had had sufficient time to have called the attention of the house to the subject.
The Lord Chancellordefended the bill in its present shape, upon the legal grounds he had formerly adduced in support of it; and contended, that the declaration, as so worded, would, by confining it to the single species of demurrer, be a sufficient rule for the learned judges. The bill, however, he observed, had improperly been called his bill; though his was the hand that presented it to the consideration of their lordships, it was founded upon the proposition of a noble and learned lord then present. In future, should he propose any
952
thing in the shape of an act of parliament to their lordships' consideration, it should be purely his own; and then he should rightly have to stand or fall by its merits or demerits.
Lord Hawkesburyin further explanation, observed, that though the bill, with the amendments, might have lain for several days upon the table, yet it was incumbent upon those, in the case of a legislative measure of such importance, urging the passing of the bill so amended, to give some notice of the time they proposed for the consideration of such amendments, and to have the lords summoned thereupon.—After some further discussion, the question was put, and the original motion for taking the amendments into immediate consideration, was negatived without a division. The amendments made by the commons were then formally taken into consideration and agreed to.

CORN.
Earl Stanhoperose to make a motion, which, in his mind, was of the utmost urgency. He had been given to understand by a noble lord (Auckland), that there would be no objection to the motion with which he should conclude; but he felt its object to be of so much importance in its nature and probable effects, that no time should be lost in submitting it to their lordships.
Lord Ellenboroughrose to observe, that if the motion which the noble lord meant to bring forward, was of such very great importance, he begged leave to submit to him, whether it was not improper to bring it forward in so thin a house.
Earl Stanhopesaid, that the object of his motion, in the first instance, was merely to move for important information to be laid before the house. If the noble and learned lord had been in possession of that information, he would not be so forward in proposing delay, and that respecting a matter which so vitally concerned the great majority of the community. The most imminent danger hung over the present situation of the country, and not only the comforts, but the wants of the people might be put to hazard.
Lord Ellenboroughrose again, and called the noble lord to order. It could not be fairly said of him, that he treated any thing that regarded the subject with levity. No man was more alive to the interests of the subject than he was; and he could give no better proof of that respect for them, than

953
the wish he had expressed, that whatever concerned the people should be seriously and deliberately discussed.
Earl Stanhopecontended, that the learned lord seemed not to be aware of the difficulties and dangers to which he alluded. There was no knowing to what an alarming degree a scarcity might soon be experienced. The experience of former times should have taught us better. It ought to be recollected, that in the course of 15 years, about 45 millions sterling had been sent out of the country for the purchase of corn and grain, &c. when even there existed more facilities of procuring it, than we were likely soon to possess. The ports of the Baltic would be, or were already, shut against us; and whither were we then to look for any immediate supply? With the intention of bringing this subject more fully and fairly before their lordships, he should now move, that there be laid before the house an account of the quantity of corn, grain, rice, &c. imported into G. Britain since the 1st of Jan. 1806; also an account of the exports of the same during the same period.
Lord Moiracould not remain silent, after hearing and weighing the tendency of the assertions made by the noble earl. He did riot rise to oppose the motion, but to observe somewhat upon the tone and arguments with which it was introduced. He did not pretend to be in possession of the minute and accurate information upon this subject, which he knew might be brought forward by his noble friend (lord Auckland), but still he thought himself bound in duty to counteract, as far as lay in his power, the ill effects which might arise from the alarming language and insinuations held and thrown out by the noble earl upon such a delicate and important matter. As far, therefore, as he had any knowledge of the present state of the country, and of the very promising aspect of a plenteous harvest, he would readily take upon himself to assert, that there was no room whatsoever to entertain the most distant apprehension of the danger the noble earl seemed to forebode with so much emphasis and earnestness. He was sorry such an idea should go abroad upon such grave authority: and he was conscious it was his duty, as far as in him lay, to set the little authority he might have upon that point, in opposition to that of the noble earl.
Lord Aucklandcould not well express his thanks to the noble earl who spoke last for the favour he had done him, by taking off
954
his shoulders the weight he felt imposed upon them by the observations of the noble lord who made the motion. It was true, that the noble lord had shown him the motions he had made, but as many other matters were then pressing upon his mind, and as he had no idea of the language and manner with which the noble lord baa prefaced them, he had signified no intention of objecting to the motion which the noble lord was to make. But when he heard the noble lord thus causelessly sound an alarm of scarcity, and set forth that alarm on such groundless reasons, he felt himself called upon to say more than perhaps he should be justified in saying under other circumstances. Not only therefore was he warranted in concurring with his noble friend, in asserting that every thing in the aspect of the harvest was of a nature to preclude all apprehensions like those which the noble earl's speech was calculated to send abroad, but he had moreover the satisfaction to state, that not only the ports of the Baltic were not shut against us, but that there was even no apprehension that they would be shut. There was consequently no ground whatever for the alarm upon that subject, which the language of the noble earl was of a nature to propagate.—The question was then put upon lord Stanhope's motion, and agreed to.