The order being read for their lordships going into a committee on the bill, to repeal so much of the act of the 9th of Geo. II. as went to restrain colleges in the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge from purchasing the advowson of livings;
The Duke of Norfolkrose to oppose the proceedings. He thought adequate reasons should be given to induce the legislature to depart from a regulation which the wisdom of their ancestors thought a salutary provision. Their lordships would recollect that the act which the present bill went to repeal, in one of its most important provisions, took place principally at the instance of that great and good magistrate and minister, lord Hardwicke. If the measure was a wise and salutary provision then, why, he would ask, was it now unwise and injurious?
The Bishop of Oxfordcontended generally for the injurious tendency of the restraint, under the circumstances in which 143 the members of the universities now stood. The present proportion of livings was by no means adequate to the ends of the institution. It did not exceed a moiety of the number of the members, and at least he thought the number of livings should be rendered equal to the number of individuals to be provided for, and which may be done by means of the bill. The law, as it at present stood, operated in an inconvenient, and, in some respects, a very injurious manner. The measure in question would, he thought, contribute to improve the discipline of the universities, and materially to promote the interests of learning. His lordship also alluded to the ill effects of the present slow successions to the livings. With respect to the provisions of the bill, he should have some amendments to propose; but seemed to say they were not such as would materially alter them.
Lord Sidmouthwas of opinion that some farther time should be allowed noble lords to inform themselves, and to make up their minds upon a measure of such peculiar importance. The restraint, undoubtedly, was, as the noble duke observed, sanctioned by that great authority, lord chancellor Hardwicke. What he heard from the rev. prelate did not make up his mind as to the necessity of a legislative provision, at least, to the full extent of the present bill. Admitting the succession to livings, under the restraint, may be too slow, they may also, on the other hand, be too quick; nor did he conceive, that the interests of learning would be materially benefited by the alteration; as, through it, members might be taken from the university at too early a period, and before their literary acquirements had attained the necessary degree of weight and solidity. Neither could he see how the discipline of the universities would be ameliorated by the present bill. With respect to the proportion of livings, on which much stress had been laid, an increase of that, suppose two thirds, of the number of persons, may be a proper subject for discussion. All he would propose at present was a little delay in the progress of the bill, in order to afford time for maturely considering the subject.
The Lord Chancellorsaw no objection to the postponement desired by his noble friend, but he considered the subject of the greatest importance, and worthy the most serious consideration. It embraced 144 a variety of important topics, on many of which questions might arise. It may be matter of discussion, whether the income of livings should be augmented from the estates and other resources of the universities; or whether, and how far the number of livings may, with reference to the important objects they all had in view, be increased. The result of his own experience on part of the subject was, that, under the present limitation, the number of livings was too small; in what proportion and in what manner these should be increased, was matter for serious consideration.
Lord Aucklandconfessed, that in his present view of the subject, he was, generally speaking, favourably disposed towards the bill, as he was to every thing that proceeded from the reverend prelate who introduced it: however, he thought some degree of information on the subject necessary, as at present they were totally in the dark as to the means which the universities now possessed of remunerating their members, as to the number and value of the livings in their disposal, or other resources for that purpose. He should, therefore, suggest the expediency of the information such as he alluded to.
The Bishop of Oxfordreplied at some length, and enlarged upon and enforced the leading topics which he before urged in favour of the bill; which, however, he had not the smallest wish to hurry through the house. He would appeal to their lordships as to the great importance of education; to which the present bill went to afford a boon; one which the legislature of the country should not grant with a niggardly hand. He was impressed with the conviction that the bill would produce the most salutary and desirable effects; and, adverting to what had fallen from noble lords on the score of modification, he hoped that principle would not be too far acted upon.
Lord Sidmouth ,in explanation, indicated his attachment to the genuine interests of learning; and observed, that his idea was, that were the limitation taken away, the succession to livings, in some instances, might be too rapid. He concluded by proposing, that the committee on the bill be deferred till Tuesday next.
The Duke of Norfolkexplained, that he was not against all alteration of the present system. He was too well aware of the importance of education; but he 145 entirely coincided with a noble baron in his idea, that some information should be laid before the house, as to the proportion, number, and value of the livings. He contended for the necessity of some information on the subject, with which idea he was so far impressed, as to propose, in order to allow full time to collect it, that the committee on the bill should be postponed until Thursday the 2d of May.
§ Lord Redesdaleargued for the propriety of having information upon the subject, to enable the house to form a just decision upon the subject, and to pursue the right line of discrimination. He agreed with the noble and learned lord on the woolsack as to the different important questions which the subject involved. He was aware of the difficulties which, in some points of view, existed, as with respect to procuring satisfactory information; but what the house would have principally to consider was the general policy of the measure, and to what extent it might be expedient to authorise the conveyance of livings from private patronage to that of the universities, and the proper ratio, as far as such was practicable, to be established with respect to the successions.—After some farther explanatory conversation, the committee on the bill was adjourned till Thursday next, and the lords ordered to be summoned for that day.