Lords Sitting of 14 March 1805

MUTINIY BILL.
Previous to the 2d reading of the Mutiny bill,
The Marquis of Buckinghamrose and begged leave to call the attention of the House to the innovations which had been made on that bill since it was last before their lordships, particularly in those clauses by which the presidents of the regimental courts martial are required to be on oath themselves, and to administer oaths to the other members of the court, and to the witness to examined. The noble marquis stated that it was not his intention, on these grounds, to oppose the 2d reading of the bill, but merely to call the attention of their lordships, and of the noble earl who forwarded the public business through this House, to the alteration which he had noticed. He had at the same to regret, in common with the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, the disagreeable situation in which that House often felt itself placed, of either impeding the business of the nation, by interfering in bills to which, by the usage of parliament, any alteration made by them must prove fatal, or of passing bills which were grossly defective and objectionable.
Lord Walsinghamconceived that the observations of the noble marquis were irregular and premature. He knew it was in the contemplation of the noble earl (Camdem ) when he should come to move the 2d reading of the bill, to notice the alterations to which the noble marquis had alluded.
The Earl of Camdenhaving moved the 2d reading of the bill, recapitulated the different alterations which it had been deemed adviseable to make on it.
The Duke of Clarencesaid, it could by no means be supposed that it was his wish, at such a period, to object to the present bill. It was his intention, however, when the bill should be proposed to be committed, to call the attention of the house to the alterations which had now for the first time been introduced. He should therefore move that the house be summoned for the day on which the bill was meant to be committed.
18
—The bill was then ordered to be committed to-morrow, and the house to be summoned.

STATE OF THE NAVY.
Earl Darnleyrose for the purpose of submitting to their lordships, agreeably to the notice he had given, a number of motions for the production of papers, necessary for instituting a comparison between the late and present Boards of Admiralty. It was not his wish, in the present stage of the proceedings, to go into a wide field of discussion; sufficient opportunities would offer for that in a more advanced stage of them. He would, at present, confine himself to reading his motions, to the greater part of which he understood no objections would be made, and to make such comments on them as he thought necessary for explaining their tendency to their lordships. There were two great points to which he wished to direct the attention of the house, and upon which he was chiefly anxious to obtain information. The first respected the deficiency of Small craft; one, as their lordships might recollect, of the most serious accusations against the late naval administration; and the next applied to the practice of contracting for ships to be built in merchants yards. With respect to the first point, he was informed, that a number of ships had been bought up for the king's service, which, in the opinion of many persons professionally qualified to decide, and also of those who were appointed to command them, were totally unfit for the particular line of service to which they were destined. All of those had been purchased at a most extravagant rate, and before the public had derived any benefit from them, it was found necessary that they should undergo ample repairs, which were effected upon terms even more extravagant than the original purchase. His lordship said, he would read his motions, and comment upon them as they occurred; the first was for "an Account of all the ships which have been purchased for his maj.'s Navy, since 16th May, 1804, specifying from whom, their age and tonnage; the valuation put on them by the officers of the Dock-yards, the sums paid for them, the expence of fitting them as ships of war in the merchant and King's yards, and of any alterations made in them since they were first fitted." To this, he understood, no objection was likely to be offered, and therefore he would not trouble their lordships with any observations on it.—His next motion would be for "Copies of all letters and

19
representations which have passed between the admiralty and Navy Boards, and between those boards and the commissioners or other officers of the Dock-yards, respecting these ships; also of all representations from their commanders, respecting their unfitness to perform the services of ships of war." If this last motion should be refused, as being too general, he should have no objection to omit any part of it, or to make any alteration in it that the noble viscount at the head of the admiralty should require or suggest. The letters which he was principally anxious to obtain, were those from the commanders of the Hindostan and the Hyæna, two ships which had been taken into the service, One of those he understood to be an old West Indiaman, whose back had been broken, which was reported not fit for service, and which, notwithstanding that representation, had been purchased at an expence of something above 7,000 l.—His next motion would be for "An Account of the expence of arming of these ships, specifying the number, nature, and calibre of the guns, which they were reported to be capable of carrying when they were purchased, and of any alterations which have been since made." This he understood would be conceded to him. His next motion would be for "Copies of all representations which have been made by the commanders of these ships on the subject of their guns." As it was possible some objections might be urged against the granting of this, he would not, if it should be refused, persevere in pressing it.—His next motion would be for "An Account of the number of artificers and labourers, who have discharged themselves from his maj.'s Dock-yards at Deptford and Woolwich, in each month, since 1st June, 1804, specifying their several classes, age, and time of service." Neither this, nor the following, would, be believed, be refused.—"The number of shipwrights borne in all the Yards, on the 1st of March, 1805."—When those two last motions should be complied with, he had strong reasons for supposing that it would appear to the satisfaction of every noble lord who heard him, that fewer shipwrights were borne in the king's yards at the commencement of the present month, than at the corresponding period last year. His lordship here stated the number of men who had been discharged from the different yards at various times by the late Board of Admiralty, some of whom were superannuated, and others dismissed for misconduct. He contended that there
20
were a smaller number of men employed in the king's yards on the 1st March, 1805, than on the 1st March, 1804; the number at the latter period being 9336, whereas those employed at the commencement of the present month amounted only to 3213, being 123 less than the establishment at the same period last year. His next motion would be for "A List of his maj.'s ships which have been ordered to be repaired in the merchants' yard since 1st June, 1804." He would next move for "A List of ships of war ordered to be built or contracted for from the above period, up to the present time, specifying the dates of such orders or contracts, and the rate at which such contracts have been made." If the workmen in the king's yards were properly classed, there would be no occasion to build in the merchants' yards. In the former he understood that at present a 74-gun ship could be built for 211. per ton; whereas, if he was rightly informed, the contracts lately entered into with the merchant-builders amounted to the enormous sum of 361. per ton. Let the house and the country contrast the difference between those expences, and then they would be enabled to form an idea of the provident management of the persons by whom the naval administration of the country was at present conducted.—He would next move for "An Account of the sums paid by the Navy Board, and to whom, for the Repair of the following Ships in the Merchants' Yards, in the years expressed against their names, viz. Boston, Maidstone, 1783; Southampton, Niger, Lizard, Pearl, 1784; Carysfort, 1785; Lowestoffe, 1786; Boston, 1791; Retribution, L'Amiable, Tartar, Success, Ariadne, 1792; Magicienne, Dedalus, Andromache, Flora, Fury, Bull-dog, 1793. The repairs of these 20 ships, he was informed, had cost 298,884 l. when they might have been built in the royal yards for a sum not amounting to half that sum. His last motion would be for, "An Account of the sums for which ships of the same size and force might have been built at the same period, according to the contract prices then paid to the merchant-builders." It was not his intention to say any thing at that time upon the comparative merits of the late and present naval administrations. He meant nothing personal to the noble lord at the head of that department; his object was to institute an enquiry, the result of which he thought would be beneficial to the country, into one of the most important parts of its

21
expenditure. However, he could not avoid observing, that he thought the noble earl near him (St. Vincent) who was lately at the bead of that department, was particularly qualified, from his professional knowledge, to discover the abuses which were practised in it. When he was first placed at the head of that board, he set about enquiring into those abuses with an honest and ardent zeal, and having discovered that the most enormous abuses were committed in it, he set about, with a resolution as laudable, the correction and the future prevention of them. For that purpose he proposed the appointment of a commission which had already rendered the most important services to the country, and for the dissolution of which he could discover no one sufficient motive, unless the strange determination should have been adopted of perpetuating those abuses, which it had so industriously developed, and the possible recurrence of which it had suggested the means of preventing. The country, however, which was sensible of the services of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry, would not suffer itself to be deprived of the advantages of those discoveries and improvements which they had made and suggested; they would not, in so important a branch of their defence and expenditure as the naval department, forego the benefits that might be expected, from a more correct and economical administration of the immense sums that were so freely contributed for maintaining it. He would trespass no longer upon their lordships' time, but move the first resolution.
Lord Melvillesaid, he had no objection to the motion made by the noble lord. it would not be necessary for him to trouble their lordships at much length upon the present occasion; whatever he had to say would come more regularly when the papers, which it was the object of the noble lord's motion to obtain, should be made the foundation of some specific resolutions. He would not shrink from the discussion. There was one point, however, upon which he would, even at the present stage of the proceedings, declare himself. If there were any blame applicable to the repairing of ships in the merchant's yards, that blame, he begged it to be understood, he would distinctly take upon himself. He would acknowledge, that he had advised and recommended that the king's ships should be repaired in the merchants' yards; and for this reason, because he thought in the state in which our navy was, it could not be kept up without having
22
resort to the facilities for repairing it, afforded by the merchants' yards. Upon the propriety of that measure, he challenged discussion, and would be happy to meet the noble lord when the subject should be fairly brought before the house. As to the calculations with which the house had been entertained, it would be premature in him to discuss them then; when they should be regularly before their lordships, he would have an opportunity of inquiring into them, and making deductions from them by no means favourable to the conclusions drawn by the noble lord. If he were to be denominated a culprit, because he had contracted for the building of ships in the private yards, he would only say, that he had offended in common with almost every board of admiralty, except the last, that had ever existed in the country. The principle upon which they did so was one of the most powerful, it was one of strong necessity. It would not be possible to keep up the navy of this country in time of war, to maintain it with that formidable and commanding aspect which it ought to preserve, without having recourse to building in the merchants' yards. It was possible, that some new system might have been established, some notable discovery, superseding the wisdom of all former admiralty boards, might have been made, but neither he, nor those with whom he had acted, thought that the honour, the advantage, or the security of the country would be consulted by a rash departure from the system which had been so long and so beneficially acted upon. He would, at the same time, frankly acknowledge, that he did not think that the merchants' yards were to be built in out of choice; they were employed from necessity in time of war, because the royal yards were not sufficient to meet the exigencies of the service. Whenever the comparative expense of building in the king's and the merchants' yards should fairly become the subject of consideration, he would not decline entering upon the comparison. As to what the noble lord had advanced respecting the increase of the price in building ships of war; and the inferences to the disadvantage of the present naval administration, which he supposed he meant to draw from the comparative rates of prices he had moved for, he would ask, was there one of their lordships who could expect to build a house now for the same sum it would have cost 50 or even 20 years ago? The noble lord, he Understood, meant to bring forward the question, and it was to be the principal

23
object of his motion on another day, whether it would be advisable, to continue or abandon entirely the practices of building in private yards. That would be a fair mode of bringing it to issue, and one upon which he would have no reluctance to meet the noble lord. For the services in his professional capacity of the noble person in his eye (earl St. Vincent) he had all the respect they deserved; but it was not new in the history of this country that, under the administration of naval lords, the navy had more than once been in danger of mouldering, and had well nigh gone to pieces. He had only to call the attention of their lordships to the naval administration of lord Sandwich, a person regularly bred to the profession, and yet, with the exception of one, the navy fell more into decay under the management of that board, of which he had been at the head, than when it was presided by persons, neither whose habits nor education were professional. When, he would ask, had the navy been most flourishing? was it not at those periods, when it had been superintended by a noble earl in his eye (Spencer), and another noble earl.(Chatham) whom he did not sec in his place? Under whose management of the naval department, were the victories of earl Howe, earl St. Vincent, lord Duncan, and lord Nelson, gained? He had no objection that as full an enquiry as possible should be instituted into the conduct of the late and present admiralty boards, but he did not intend that the question should be decided upon the documents moved for by the noble lord. He would also bring forward some documents, tending to illustrate the former invariable practice of the board of admiralty, upon most of the points touched on by the noble lord. It was not his intention to object to any of the material documents moved for by the noble lord; there were, however, some of the papers which he did not think would be prudent to have produced He would, therefore, wish that part of the second Resolution beginning at the words "also of all, representations," to the conclusion, should be omitted, and that the whole of the 4th resolution should be expunged. He did not think, being copies of letters from commanders of ships, that they were extremely important in the consideration of the great question it was the object of the noble lord to bring forward. He was aware that officers, as it had been observed, were often in love with their ships, but the progress of the passion here was different from what obtain-
24
ed in all other cases; it was seldom very, warm at the beginning. At the commencement of a Spanish war, for instance, an enterprising officer would wish for a better sailer than the ship in which it had been thought proper by his superiors to place him. However, if the noble lord could produce letters complaining of the sailing of ships constructed in the merchants' yards, he could assure him that he could produce as many complaining of the sailing of ships constructed in the king's yards. As to the observations of officers respecting the fitness of ships for the service, they were, in his opinion, some of the worst criterions to judge by. If vessels were objected to, let them be surveyed by proper persons, and let not the capricious dislike of an officer be urged as an argument against, either taking into or continuing a ship in the service. He did not see the necessity of making out the long list the noble lord moved for of ships, some of which were built when lord Keppel was at the head of the admiralty. He had no objection to concede to all the motions of the noble lord, except the latter part of the second, and the whole of the fourth—The motions were then put, with the necessary exceptions, and granted.—Adjourned.