DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY.

HL Deb 08 March 1805 vol 3 cc793-828

The order of the day for summoning their lordships to consider of the motion upon this subject being read,

Lord King

rose, and observed, he thought that no apology was necessary for calling the attention of that house to the subject upon which he had announced his intention to bring forward a motion; its intrinsic importance and great magnitude, were so evident as obviously to render any thing of the kind unnecessary. In discussing a subject the nature of which was equally extensive, various, and important, a variety of arguments and considerations, founded on the multiplicity of facts, presented themselves to his mind; but among those which struck him, as the most prominent and forcible, was the contradictory nature, as well as the great inefficacy of the different measures of the two last sessions, for ameliorating the military system, and augmenting the military force of the country. The perusal of these, he thought, would be sufficient to convince every discerning and unprejudiced mind of the total absence of all system, regularity, and connection, in the various measures which had been devised, It was impossible, from the consideration of the acts alluded to, to collect that even the intention of the framers was to create a disposable force in the country. Neither in the plans which had been adopted, or in the course of their execution, could such an object or intention be traced. In the measures which had been suggested, there was nothing like order, regularity, or system; every step that had been taken added to the difficulties, and departed wider from the attainment of the proposed object. Such was the conduct of the government on these occasions, that it reminded him of the situation of an unfortunate man plunged into an abyss of difficulty and distress, who was glad to catch at, or lay hold of, every thing that presented itselt, however slight and powerless, in order to extricate himself. His lordship then proceeded to a detailed consideration of the subject, and first adverted to the measures of increasing the militia, and the creation of what was called the Army of Reserve, the prominent effects of which were to raise the bounties to an extravagantly high rate, and which eventually enhanced the difficulties in procuring the men. In point of financial economy, this measure was to be strongly reprobated, as it gave, in the first instance, an extravagantly high premium to men to engage for limited service; and caused, necessarily, to be superadded a large additional bounty to enlist them for general service. He then proceeded to the consideration of the ballot system, which, in the mode it was carried on, he highly censured, particularly its effects upon the agricultural concerns of the country, and the irregularity of its operation, by which one county was oppressed to supply the deficiencies of another. Taking this part of the subject in another point of view, it was equally exceptionable, for, it would be found, that the number of men procured by the ballots for personal service was next to nothing. To illustrate this position, he could not do more than refer to what he deemed an unquestionable authority upon the subject viz. a printed speech of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, in which, speaking of the numbers procured by the ballots, he estimates the whole at 40,000, out of which, 2000 were obtained for personal service, and the remaining very disproportionate number of 38,000 men were hired substitutes. This consideration alone, the noble lord thought sufficient to overthrow any arguments that might be urged in favour of the Army of Reserve. Adverting to the line of argument adopted by ministers, when ever subjects like the present were discussed, and particular parts of their system pointedly objected to, he observed, their mode of defence was, not to answer or obviate the objections fairly or separately; but, to refer to the aggregate amount of the whole military force, in which care was always taken to include the volunteers. This he deemed a fallacious mode of defence, and not calculated to obviate objections which were too well founded. The merits of the question at issue, even admitting of the correctness of the official documents laid before parliament, were decidedly in favour of his conclusions. By these, he contended, it would appear, that the infantry force, by far the most important, particularly in a disposable line, so far from being augmented, had actually decreased last year; he alluded to the infantry force in G. Britain; this might be seen by a reference to what was stated as the amount of the infantry in Jan. 1804, and what it was by the latest returns of the present year. In referring to these, as well as to some accounts respecting the land forces in an early period of the late war, viz.1794, he observed, that though the aggregate force, including cavalry, and foreign troops, was augmented to an amount exceeding 11,000; yet, as he contended, the British infantry were 800 less. To this was to be added, another consideration, namely, that a comparatively small part of this infantry force was for general service; the amount of those who were enlisted for general service, did not exceed 53,000 men: this was not all, these men, from the terms of their engagements, might be sentout of the country; but under its present circumstances, would it be prudent or safe to send the whole, or any part of that number In fact, could they be spared? certainly not.—Proceeding to the consideration of the Additional Force bill, he observed, a sufficient number of men were not raised by it, to supply even the casualties of the army. After dwelling shortly upon this consideration, he observed, that a particular regulation might be introduced, and with the greatest facility, into our military system, which would be attended with the most beneficial consequences; he meant the abolition of the practice of enlisting men into the army for life; for the continuance of such a practice, he thought no argument could possibly be advanced. There was nothing that could make men's minds revolt from entering into the military service of their country, but the idea, that, by so doing, they made a surrender of their personal liberties for life, without the possibility of retracting. Let their lordships look to the system of all the great military powers on the continent, with none of these, the practice of enlisting soldiers for life obtained, but in no country whatever was the abolition of such a practice more loudly called for than in Great Britain; and not a more effectual remedy could be found to prevent desertion, than giving the men an assurance, that at a given time they might have their discharge. Under the present system, the astonishment was not that so few men were procured, but that so many could be obtained. Another great objection to men's freely entering into the army, was the apprehension of their being sent to the West India Islands. On this bead, he should be glad to hear, whether there was any fixed rule for sending out corps by rotation; he was afraid not, but should be happy to learn that he was mistaken. In this part of the subject, another consideration presented itself, which, if well executed, might be carried into effect. He meant a well-regulated plan, for, as well as an extension of, the number of the black corps, for the purpose of colonial service, lie was aware, to a certain degree, of the obstacles which the jealousy of the planters and others in these colonies presented. In fact, the most of these were adverse to seeing the blacks in any other than a state of slavery. Under the present regulations of these corps, they were of very little service; in these, a commission was regarded only as a step towards promotion: at first, commands in these were only given to officers who had served in the West Indies, but that salutary rule was not long followed; however, he was of opinion, that this part of the military force could be rendered of essential service, under proper regulations. Another point was, the extravagantly high rate of living in these quarters, which should in some degree be countenanced, by a certain increase of pay. Judicious means should also be taken to counteract the prevalence of those dangerous maladies which were incidental to those climates. Adverting to the defensive military force of the country, he observed it was not long since deemed to be in that weak and alarming state, as to be the principal cause of a change in the executive administration; and the greatest hopes were entertained of the vigour and efficacy of the measures of the new ministers. These, however, might be classed into two heads; the first, the appointment of an extensive staff of brigadiers; what the aggregate amount of this new expence was, he did not know; but he believed it was taken at 2,5001. for each staff. The second was, the Additional Force bill, the merits of which were recently discussed by their lordships; this measure was so happily framed, that the effects produced by it were perfectly foreign from its professod objects. It was to be regarded rather as a measure of finance, than one of military regulation on this head, his lordship went into some detailed calculation, and particularly dwelt upon the comparatively small number of men which were procured by the parish officers. The measure was, at best, inefficacious; it was, in some parts of its operations, oppressive and unjust; and being hither to productive of no one benefit, though it was in activity for ten months, including those the most favourable for its operation, there existed no reasonable ground to expect it would prove beneficial or serviceable in future, He would detain their lordships no longer, but conclude with moving, "That a committee be appointed to revise the different acts passed in the two last sessions of parliament, for the military defence of the country; and to consider of such farther measures as may be necessary to make that defence more complete and premanent."

Earl Camden

observed, that he should proceed upon the discussion of the important subject before their lordships, without making any political or personal allusion whatever; and, it was with regret, that on a debate on a motion brought forward by a noble friend of his, about a fortnight ago, he felt himself under the necessity of making a few observations of that nature. With respect to the question before the house, he doubted not, but their lordships, on a reference to, and a consideration of, what appeared in the official documents upon the table, would make up their minds how it should be decided. With a view to the due illustration of the subject, he had laid on the table several documents, in addition to those moved by the noble baron, who came forward in the present instance, and other noble lords. Some of these respected the artillery, and by the accounts their lordships would see the increase, particularly in that important description of our military force. His lordship then entered into some detailed calculations, drawn from the documents adverted to, and, as one of the results, observed, it would clearly appear, the disposeable force was increased within the year, to an amount exceeding 13,000 men; and this part of the army consisted of corps and troops the best calculated and prepared for foreign or for active service. The noble secretary enforced some of the arguments he had used in the former debate in support of the Additional Force bill, and contended that, from the united operation and effects of the different measures for the regulation of the military system, the army was considerably increased, and in a progressive state of improvement and increase; so that upon the whole, there was every reason to hope for the expected state of amelioration. With respect to discipline and increased numbers, it was therefore evidently unsafe materially to alter or derange that system. From the plans that were now in operation for organizing the force for limited service, the regular army or disposeable force would be materially benefited. From what he had stated, he trusted it would appear to their lordships, that no fewer than 23,000 men had been added to our military force within the year, as well by the ordinary mode of recruiting, as the other means of raising men, which were in a train of operation. He contended, that on the grounds of 28,000 men being raised within so short an interval, the prospect of a far greater and progressive increase, and the certainty of an improved and improving state of discipline and preparation; it was evident no necessity whatever existed for the proceeding called for by the noble lord's motion. Proceeding again to a detached consideration of the subject, he contended, that from the numbers raised already in the course of the present year, there was every right, taking an average calculation, to suppose that 24,000 men, at least, would be raised before the expiration of the year. Let these numbers be compared with the numbers of men raised within the same intervals, would be still more strongly in his facour. The present aggregate military force was within so small a number as 8,000, of what it amounted to in the concluding years of the late war; taking the subject in every possible point of view, the legislature and the government were called upon to persevere in the system already laid down; the more especially, when the situation of the country, with relation to foreign powers, and still more so, with respect to the enemy, was considered and particularly as far as a disposable force was concerned. His lordship spoke shortly in defence of the army of reserve bill, deeming it upon the whole a good measure and through which a number of men were raised; but at the same time admitted its unavoidably injurious tendency, in raising, throughout the medium of compe- tition, the bounties to a very high rate. With respect to the noble baron's calculations, that not a greater number than 53,000 men were obtained for general service, he begged leave to differ from him. By his referring to the documents, he thought it must incontrovertibly appear, than 74,000 men were at least obtained for that service. In reference to the ideas suggested, relative to the black corps, he had to observe, that steps were taken for the amelioration of that part of our colonial force.; and as to the rules by which we next were guided, in selecting troops for the West India station, he had only to remark, that care was taken, that such men were preferably sent out, as were least likely to be injured by those climates. Upon the whole, he trusted, that he had proved, and he hoped the determination of their lordships would evince it, that no adequate reason or ground existed for the appointment of such a committee as was moved for by the noble lord.

Earl Stanhope

said, that the notification of the motion now before the house had induced his attendance this night. He thought the motion of his noble friend one of the best in every point of view, that could possibly be devised, in the present circumstances of the country: the motion did his noble friend credit, as well as his mode of treating the subject. The noble secretary who answered, or rather who attempted to answer his noble friend; expressed his hope that the house, would decide against the motion; but his hope, his wish, and his advice to the house were that the motion should be agreed to. From the general terms of the motion, which was, that a committee be appointed to revise the acts that have been passed in the two last sessions, for the defence of the country, it was allowable for him to enter into a discussion of these acts, of one of them at least, he should do so, and he trusted in such a way, although it was considered by his noble friend, in that point of view, as that he should convince their lordships its leading provisions were mischievous, injurious, and absurd. The view taken by his noble friend of the act to which he alluded, was chiefly of a military nature. In what he had laid. down in that view of it, he agreed with his noble friend; but the view he should take of it was a still more important one. The fact of its producing but a very small number of. Men was a disadvantage, but its most objectionable effects lay deeper, and in these views of it the consequences of the measure were truly alarming. Were he to state from memory certain clauses and provisions of the bill to which he alluded, their lordships would regard it to be impossible, that any act of parliament should contain such clauses and provisions. But he had a printed copy of the bill in his pocket, to this he would refer, and if any of their lordships doubted the correctness of his print, they could compare it with the statute upon the table. It was the act for raising and maintaining a permanent additional force, &c. and passed the 29th day of June last. In the 20th section of this act, for he wished regularly to refer their lordships to the chapter and verse which he quoted, the parish officers were entitled to certain sums. In the 24th section, the bounties were not to exceed three-fourths of the money which should from time to time be allowed as bounties, for the infantry for general service. This was done, no doubt, from a conviction that three-fourths of the bounty would be more acceptable than the whole; or it might be done upon a calculation of the difference in value, between men so raised, and those enlisted for general service. By the 33d section, inspectors were to ascertain the deficiencies in the numbers allotted to be raised by the respective parishes, on which justices of the peace were authorised to assess such parishes, in proportion to the deficiencies aforesaid; the 34th clause enacted, that such penalties should be levied, but not paid out of the poor's rates. They were then necessarily to fall upon the farmers; but he wished to know, how these farmers were to be indemnified. How, but by raising the prices of corn and provisions upon the people! The last bill which affected these things directly, he had singly to oppose. Yet, the bill now referred to was fully as mischievous as that; nay, it went something deeper, and to the full, made as effective a part of the famine-mongering system. This was a strong incontrovertible reason for the committee required by the motion, in order that at least such a nuisance, such an engine in the system of starvation, might be done away. It was not only helping to starve the poor, but, through a rise of the price of labour, to raise the price of manufactures, and so injure their sale in foreign markets; from that would spring the ruin of the commerce of the country, thence the ruin of its navy and the shipping interests, and, with these, the ruin of its military defence. The antidotes to these dreadful disorders might be had in the discontinuance of a system which starved and famished the people. Better were it not to tax the farmers at all; for whatever taxes were laid on them, would, in case of all direct taxes on the tallow chandler, the brewer, &c. induce a rise in prices of grain and corn, articles of the first necessity. The rise in these would necessarily beget a rise in the prices of labour; and that by a necessary and mischievous progression would re-act, so as to produce a still further rise in the prices of corn and grain. The effect of the bill was directly to tax the farmer, in addition to all his other, and increasing burdens. It was obvious that the prices of provision had increased, were increasing, and ought to be diminished.—As to the military system of the country, though he totally disapproved of. the defence act, yet he wished to see the country well armed. A friend of his out of doors, a person for whom he had a great respect, (major Cartwright) had written well on this subject. Noble lords might laugh, but the noble lord, the secretary of state for the home department, would not laugh when he mentioned another writer on this subject, his own father, who had written a book, when Mr. Jenkinson, on the military defence of the country. This latter book was the most constitutional, legal, learned, scientific, and entertaining tract on the national defence, he had ever perused. Both on the principles of this book, and from his own conviction of the necessity, as well as wisdom, of so doing, he was not only for arming the people, but wished the arming to be more general. But the system of ministers was that of arming the people at present, and starving them afterwards. Besides, there was the utmost reason to apprehend the worst possible consequences from the state of indiscipline in which the force is; though this could not much occasion surprize, when it was recollected that under a noble secretary of state opposite him (lord Camden) the state of indiscipline of Ireland, when he was lord-lieutenant, was such, that general Abercrombie, on arriving in that country, as commander in chief, in 1795, issued a proclamation, stating, among other things, that the army, from its indiscipline, was only formidable to itself, and not to an enemy. The state of our means of de- fence was not so good-as under the late minister. The present minister was perhaps a man of more brilliant talents, but he was not a man of more good sense, than the late. Yet the present minister thought nothing of calling the noble lord (Sidmouth) fool and simpleton; though the truth Was, that the noble lord had more good sense in his little finger than the now chancellor of the exchequer had in his whole body; and that was not saying much. However, the noble lord was got out of office; and then nothing was heard but the cry of the transcendent merits of Mr. Pitt. Round went the friends of the right hon. gent, about every where, and told the people that he would bring in his Defence bill, which was to correct every abuse, remedy every grievance, and meliorate the whole system of our military force. But, lo! the mountain was in labour, and brought forth this brat of a Defence bill, now in every body's hand. That noisy labour had brought forth only such a rickety subject as would have been disavowed by any one less subject to shame than his majesty's present chancellor of the exchequer! One material objection he had to our military system as it now subsists, was, that we recruited our men for life. To remedy this single grievance, it was incumbent on the house to agree to the motion for a committee, which had been submitted by his noble friend. The book of lieut. col. Wilson on. this subject, was worthy the perusal of their lordships. As a military enquiry, this book, his lordship thought, possessed incomparable merit. But it was in the power of their lordships to devise arguments superior to what could occur to common minds; thus, books by individuals could only be helps to them. Such were, however, good helps. Under all the circumstances of the times, and knowing that there never was a worse bill than the De-fence bill, he would most heartily vote for the motion of his noble friend. The de-fence act ought in all events to be repealed, for it was an act founded on wickedness, and that wickedness founded on fraud.

The earl of Romney

began, by expressing his surprize at the whole of what had been said by the noble earl who had just sat down, and most particularly so in what he had said as to his noble friend opposite (lord Camden) having brought the army into a state of indiscipline at the time he was lord lieutenant of Ireland. So far from that being the case, said the noble lord, I verily believe that, it is to the. excellent measures and strenuous exertions of that noble earl, that we owe the. safety of Ireland, and without which that part of the empire would have been lost to this. So far from injuring the discipline of the army, his noble friend had put. arms into the hands of a large body of men, zealously attached to the cause of their king and country, whose loyalty then impelled them, to offer their services to combat insurrection and rebellion within, as well as the enemies without the country, and which men had been brought to as high a state of discipline as those of any army in the world. But there was one part of the speech of the noble lord who spoke last that was most, extraordinary indeed: he said that house had first dared to put arms into, the hands of the people, and then, afterwards, had dared to attempt their starvation. Good God! What had they done? When he heard the words, his hair stood on end! The noble earl imputes that to their lordships which was altogether the act of Providence, viz. a bad crop, the effects of which he knew and lamented as much as any one. Their lordships could not controul the seasons, nor make the corn grow in spite of their opposition; had we obtained a fair crop, he was certain there would have been no occasion for discontent: that, under, the guidance of Providence, was the sole cause of the high prices which had taken place in the necessaries of life, and it was not fair to impute them to any act of the legislature.—His lordship begged pardon for this digression, into which he bad naturally been led by the observations of the noble earl, and then proceeded to advert to the bill in question in this debate. He allowed that it had not fully answered the intentions for which it was framed: but he attributed this, in a considerable degree, to have happened from the bill not having as yet had a fair trial. He knew, however, from pretty good authority, that it was the intention of the right hon. gent. who framed it, to make many material alterations in it; and he had no doubt that by these means it might be made productive of great and important advantages to the service and defence of the country; and, in matters of this kind, he should wish such alterations as might be necessary to come from that quarter. His lordship said, he never was nor ever would be, the tool of any administration; but he would never do any thing which might tend to distress them at such times, especially as the circumstances of the country required for them support. The noble earl who spoke last had stated that the people were distressed and discontented, and our manufactures on the decline, and the manufacturers unemployed. He was happy to say, he had every reason to believe the very reverse to be the truth of the fact; that our manufactures were in the most prosperous and flourishing state, the people perfectly contented and happy in the pleasing contemplation that their situation abounded with the greatest blessings, when they compared it with that of every other nation in Europe; and from the confidence they reposed in the present government, he. believed they were unanimous in their zeal and enthusiasm for the defence of the country, and of the blessings they enjoyed under our invaluable, constitution. His lordship then adverted to the volunteers, to whose exertions and ardour he gave great praise, and particularly to those of his county, which, he declared, were as well disciplined as any, army in the world need to be. He was sorry, he said, to have detained their lordships so long, but he had been led on to say more than he intended, from a wish to throw a proper degree of light on the gloomy picture which the noble earl who spoke last had drawn of the state and situation of the country. His lordship concluded by saying, that the present motion should have his hearty dissent.

The Earl of Carlisle

said, that if enquiry was so necessary last year as had been held to be by certain noble lords on the opposite side of the house, he was at a loss to find out why it was not equally so at present. Those noble lords were last year the most strenuous and vehement for an enquiry into the state of the military defence of the country, because they then said the measures pursued, and pursuing by the then administration, were weak, inefficient, and. inadequate to the purpose: every abuse was thrown on the folly, incapacity, and imbecility of those who brought forward those measures; and a noble viscount.(Sid-mouth) now in this house, but who was then at the head of his majesty's administration in the other house, was driven from his place on account of the imbecility of those measures. The noble earl then adverted to what these measures were, which were then called so inadequate, and said, the last of them was the noble viscount's Army of Reserve bill the reason given for the violent abuse of which Was that it produced only a few men; but now comes this poor, wretched, contemptible parish bill, which turned parish-officers into recruiting serjeants, and yet produced fewer men, but is now called a better bill, and all enquiry into it was said to be minecessary. The noble earl supposed the noble lords would carry the argument up to its utmost climax, and contend that a bill that raised no men at all would be the best of all possible bills. The praise demanded by ministers seemed to be in an inverse proportion to their success. It reminded him of the line in one of Dryden's tragedies, where a lover exclaimed; My wound is great because it is so small. on which a wit who was present cried out, Then twould be greater, were it none at all. In answer to the argument of the noble earl who spoke last, that the bill had not had a fair trial, his lordship observed, that it had been passed as a bill that was to have a speedy and forcible effect; that was to produce men in great numbers, and in & short time; and yet, after Several months, it is alleged that it has not had a fair trial. Whey was it ever brought forward? Why was it ever acted on? It was to supersede measures which had raised a great many men in a very little time, but which were pretended by the framer of this bill to be inefficient and imbecile, yet it turned out to be a more weak and ricketty brat than any of them. Noble lords would recollect, that when the present minister pulled the stool of power from under the noble viscount who was then the minister, he raised an alarm that the enemy was at our very doors, and we were offering up our prayers to Heaven that we might not be swallowed up by Bonaparte. He assured parliament and the country, that he would produce a plan by which the army would be immediately recruited, and relying on which, the country would be safe at home, and would be enabled to carry destruction into the country of the enemy. Fortunately the enemy had not yet come, but now parliament was told by ministers that it must wait some time longer, in order to give their measure a fair trial.—The noble earl insisted that the bill had not succeeded in the object for which it was framed, and that it was absurd to say, that in three or four years it might succeed. If a crop were wanted immediately from a piece of land, it would be just as absurd to sow a grain Which required to lie several months in the ground before ft triage its appearance on the surface.? Perhaps the conduct of Frederic tire Great w Prussia might be instanced by government as a defence of their tardy method of increasing the force of their country. When that military monarch saw any woman remarkable for her height and muscular appearance, he immediately caused her to be married to a grenadier of his body guard, and by this means hoped to produce an Herculean breed from which his army might ultimately be recruited. The progress of the operation of the additional defence act was scarcely less deliberate, and indeed the whale measure deserved nothing but ridicule and contempt. His lordship contended further, that the committee now moved for by his noble friend would embrace many points more than that as to the number of men which had been raised under this bill, and deprecated the hackneyed and antiquated argument of ministers not being pressed in time of war, as that to which their lordships ought not to lend ah ear. He said such a committee would very properly inquire into the propriety of what had been suggested as to enlisting men for a limited time of service, which had been highly recommended by many excellent writers on military affairs, as particularly relating to our own service: the militia and volunteer system might also come under their revision; and though he had the highest opinion of both the militia and volunteers, there were, no doubt, many improvements which yet might be made in, both those systems. He thought inquiry was full as necessary now as it was last year, and he expected an answer from that strong phalanx of ministers who sat opposite to him, which should, at least, contain some reason why inquiry was so necessary and so loudly called for in the case of the weak and imbecile measure of the noble lord (Sidmouth), and so very unnecessary in that of the present bill; which was far the weakest and most imbecile of any that had yet been produced On these grounds he should vote for the motion of his noble friend.

Lord Hawkesbury

said he rose at this early period to address their lordships, and to call their attention to the nature, of the, motion now before them, on the ground on which it had been supported, and which, he trusted, would induce them to come to a decided negative for without saying it was a motion out of the province of a house of parliament to entertain, it was one which, on general principles he should have strong objections to, because its tendency was to devolve the military administration of the country on a committee of their lordships, lie could see nothing that could support such a motion but that constitutional ground of want of confidence of that house in the administration of the day, and the fair way of stating it was to call for evidence of facts, to ascertain what the state of the army was at this moment, and it that army was inadequate, and the exertions of ministers had been insufficient for the purposes of our protection, that should be stated as a ground for an address to his majesty to remove his ministers. On that point some difference of opinion might be entertained, perhaps, among those who opposed them; however that might be, it was clearly the object of all motions of this kind, to censure, if not to remove ministers, and in that way he had no difficulty in meeting the motion at once, and to say that no ground existed for such a motion.—Having stated this as his opinion on the tendency of such motions as these, he should proceed to observe on the present one, which brought before the house this question, namely, what was the present military situation of this country? And upon that subject he was ready to enter into a full discussion. He was ready to enter into a comparison of the military situation of this country at the present moment, and that of any former period, and of any other country; and to discuss the point also, whether ministers had done all that could be done in that respect. The first question, then, was upon the general amount of our force, and here he must take the liberty of observing, that any stranger who had heard the noble lords who complained to-night of our military system, would be induced to think that we bad, at this moment, a smaller, a less efficient, and worse disciplined army than formerly; now, if the fact was the reverse, if we had now a larger and a better disciplined army than at any former period, he would venture to ask, what ground there was for instituting the extraordinary measure proposed by this motion, in order that noble lords might take the administration of the military affairs of this country into their own hands. Now with respect to our force, he was ready to contend it was not only greater than it had been in any former period in this country, but greater than the military of any other country in comparison to its population; greater in that respect even than France, possessing for military purposes advantages over others by its revolutionary system, as indeed many others did over a country like ours, where every body was free, and would not be compelled to take upon him the military force of this country, exclusive of the volunteer force, of men who were taken away entirely from productive labour, and accumulating industry, in civil life and purely military in this country at this moment, could not be estimated much below 400,000 in the united kingdom exclusive he must repeat it, of the volunteer force, and which he should presently state. The military force of this country, including officers, was 390,000 men that was to say men who were withdrawn entirely from the civil employment of life and productive labour, and whose pursuits were purely military; this taken from a population, of 15 millions, which, on a calculation, he believed, would produce one—fourth capable of bearing arms, that was,3,800,000 of male adults, and this would make actually one-tenth of the whole of the male population of the United Kingdom. Now, to compare this with the situation of other countries, we should see how much our military force was superior in that respect to any other in Europe, although many of these had much greater advantages for producing a military force than we had, although inferior certainly to us in every other respect. The military force of France was not move than 362,000 army, out of a population of 32 millions, the fourth of which, being the male population capable of bearing arms would be 8 millions, and then their army would amount only to the proportion of I out of 14 of the male population capable of bearing arms. If we looked to Russia, its army might be stated at 590,000 men, and its population was 34 millions. The proportion of men capable of bearing arms was 8,500,00, and this would make only 1 out of 14 in the whole male population of that country. Austria had an army of 370,000. Its population was 20 millions. The proportion capable of bearing arms was consequently 5,000,000 and this would be one out of between 13 and 14 of the whole male population capable of bearing arms. The only power in Europe which approached this country as to its military force in comparison to its population, was Prussia. It had a population of 9 millions, and an army of 250,000 men, which yielded a proportion similar to that of this country, that of one in ten; but Prussia was not like any other power in Europe in respect to her army, for her army was more composed of foreigners than that of any other power. The result of the whole of this calculation was this, that France, Austria, and Prussia, had an army of 1 out of 13 or 14 out of the whole male population capable of bearing arms, except Prussia, which had a great number of foreigners in her force, and this country, in which the army bore a proportion capable of bearing arms. All this with regard to Great Britain, was exclusive of its volunteer force, which was, indeed, a double character, and of incalculable value to the state, for they were men, who besides being efficient in military view, connected in civil life with civil occupations and productive labour, and accumulating industry. Their number was 380,000, which with sea fencibles, to the number of 30,000, made the whole number of men in arms,in the United kingdom, s10,000. That was not 1 in 14, as other countries have, nor 1 in 10, but nearly 1 in 4, of the whole male population of this country capable of bearing arms; a greater proportion than this country ever had before; greater than any other country on the globe has now; greater than France herself ever had with all her facility of producing military force under her revolutionary system, even at its height, under the terror of Robespierre; and all this military force in this country was not growing, as in others it did, out of the distress, the confusion, or the ruin of the country, but out of a system of order, discipline, and riches, such as gave us all security, and not only enabled us to bid defiance to all the attempts or the threats of our enemy, but at the same time stamped sentiment, loyalty, and zeal of the people. Looking, then, at this state of our force, unparalleled as it was in extent, and equal to every purpose for which a force could be desirable, he would ask, was there any ground for saying that the house ought to doubt the efficiency of the executive government, and that its power ought to be delegated to a committee of a house of parliament?—He had hitherto considered the question, with reference to the quantity of our force; and he should begin with that force, which Was in its nature, the most loose, although a very important force under all circumstances, in this country: he meant our volunteer force. He knew that force had been said to have undergone considerable diminution in the course of the last year; but he was prepared to contradict that fact. Indeed if it had undergone some considerable decrease, it would not have disappointed his expectation, but even then he should have said, that the quality of what remained would have made up for the disadvantage of the diminution of numbers. There were two points to be considered in this case; the nominal establishment, and the effective number. That number, officers included, in Great Britain, was 380,000 men. Rank and file they were 342,000 men. He could not give the actual number of those who had been inspected, which was above the 310,000, a large proportion of the whole, and who were actually forthcoming, and fit for immediate service, he believe, from the last return was 307,000, making in all a diminution of no more than 3,000 men out of that immense force; and with respect to the quality of the Volunteer force, he was likewise prepared to state, that from the reports of the officers who had inspected them, and paid the utmost attention to their discipline, a vast mass was reported to be fit for any service, and out of the whole number of 307,000, no more than 22,000 were reported to be deficient in discipline; 210,000 had been on permanent duty, had been subject to the military laws, and to the rigour of military discipline, and to feel what the duties of a soldier were. Upon the efficiency of. such a force, it was unnecessary for him to dwell. Such a mass of men having had experience of a military life, who had submitted to their duty with willingness, readiness, arid zeal, was a force from which we had a right to augur every thing that was advantageous to the country, if they should ever be called into action. He thought it necessary to state thus much on the Volunteer force, to shew it was greater than any other country ever had at any former period, and that it was in discipline so considerably improved, that it exceeded even the hopes of any body at the first institution of that body. He came now to the Regular Army, and he was ready to meet the noble lords, who charged ministers with avoiding specific information, upon that subject, He knew it was the duty of ministers to be explicit upon that, and upon every other subject on which they possessed information. He should state, therefore, what force we had that was disposable, and what force was limited; and, in no period during the present or the late administration, had ministers attempted to blink that question, they had never declined stating the amount of the army. The army, exclusive of our militia, which by the way was, not only in, quantity, but also in quality, much improved, and every officer in the service would admit that the militia of this country was never at any former period fit to be compared with that body at the present moment in point of discipline, and here he was speaking upon the best authority. Now, what was our army, exclusive of the militia, in all parts of the world? It amounted to 162,000. An army more considerable than we ever bad, before; and, in quality, he would undertake to say, much superior to most of our former force, for it was not composed, as had been customary, with a very large proportion of new levies, but; the greater number of them were inured to the service in battalion, more than ever was the case at any former period in the history of the forces of this country. Of this army, 80,000 were in the plantations, and in the colonies about 56,000, which was the whole of our foreign service at present, except the German Legion; and in G. Britain and Ireland there was a disposable force of about 80,000; but he was perfectly ready to admit that the Whole of that force was not disposable. He observed that the whole of this force could not be sent abroad, for that, besides militia, there must be a certain number of the regular force kept in this country, instead of depending upon the militia; but this was a matter dependent upon circumstances, for if any great attack were made upon the enemy on the continent, that would be a diversion of the power of the enemy, and render his attempt at a descent upon Us the less probable; and in proportion to that, our regular force at home would become disposable which was at present not so; and here he must be allowed to repeat, that estimating the Character of the army of this country at former periods as highly as any noble lord pleased, still be was ready to maintain, that we had a larger and a better disposable army at this moment than this country ever had at any former period whatever. He would admit, however, that taking the whole of our force together, our limited force was too great, and our unlimited force too little, but that to make a larger, portion disposable would not leave us without sufficient defence; all he wanted to impress, upon their lordships in, this case was that we had now a larger and a better disposable force than we ever had at any former period. But it had been stated there was a great deficiency in our establishment, and the ground was, that there was a deficiency in some of the regiments, and therefore, it was argued, there was a deficiency in our force; this was a fallacious mode of reasoning; because we had a greater number of regiments than were necessary with reference to the whole number of men we wanted; but the only successful way to raise them, was to have them spread as widely as possible, and hence arose the number of regiments, and although some of them were incomplete, it by no means from thence followed that the establishment was deficient; and this distinction was lost sight of when noble lords declaimed against government for having an army on paper only; but the question was not whether we had hot some regiments which were defective, but what was the real amount of our establishment, and this was to be judged of by circumstances, and a reference was to be had to the force of the, enemy likely to operate against us. Why then, if he had clearly established the facts, that we had a larger military establishment of every description than any other country upon earth; a larger army much in proportion to our population, than our enemy had he would ask, what was the ground for calling on that house to institute an investigation which would be productive of no advantage, but which might produce great evils, at all events great hazard, for it would introduce any project with any individual might chuse to propose. A course of proceeding, which he; Would take leave to remind their lordships, was always reprobated by the best informed persons, as a dangerous practice in parliament. He knew that the army was under the superintending care of parliament, as well as every other branch of the executive government in that respect; yet their lordships would recollect historically, not only that the most enlightened statesmen had from time to report bated the practice of the houses of parliament unnecessarily interfering with the conduct of the executive government, but also that their very journals stated much jealousy of the houses of parliament taking into their hands the business of, executive government; and it had been emphatically said that the sword should never be in any hand but that of his majesty. He would conceive, however, that some specific measures might be proposed, on the emergency of an occasion, and that any noble lord might propose them; and although he should have many objections to any thing of that kind coming from any hands but those of the Executive government, especially if it were a proposition relative to the military establishment of the country, not in point of parliamentary form, for that he knew to be regular, but in point of expediency, which required that every thing of that kind should originate with executive government; still if ministers had neglected to do what ought to be done, the more regular and the safer way would be to move an address to his majesty to remove them. If, however, any noble lord thought that there was any material deficiency, in the conduct of his majesty's ministers, and yet did, not chuse to move that they should be removed, he might move upon it, but then he should make a distinct specific proposition, so that the house might at least; know, the extent of the evil; but this was so general that nobody could see the extent to which it might lead. His lordship then proceeded to defend the additional force bill. He denied, therefore, that this act had been, as was said of it, ineffectual. It had, on the contrary, been very considerably effective, and would be more so, if allowed to proceed. The ordinary recruiting had been increased by it, which had before been very much impaired. The army of reserve bill had raised a greater number of men in a short time, but had been found, to be attended with many inconveniencies, amongst which was that material and important one of raising the bounties. These incoveniencies all fell directly in the way of the success of the present bill at its first outset. To judge fairly of its probable success, they should look at its. operation for the last three months, and they would then be better able to judge what it was likely to do in future. His lordship agreed in opinion with the noble baron who brought forward the motion, as to the general scope of his arugument respecting the black corps; but the noble baron must recollect that, notwithstanding such a sort of force might be the best for the defence of such a country in such a climate, yet it was of that kind which particularly required that limitation should be attended to; for it would be always necessary to proportion it to the number of white inhabitants, as well as to the number of white troops employed in the defence of the islands—His lordship next adverted to the subject of enlisting men for limited service, which had been so much praised, and which might possibly deserve much of the encomium that was paid to it. For his own part, he had given it every attention and consideration in his power, he found it of such high importance, that he would have made himself master of it, if he could; but he found among those who were best informed on the subject whom he had consulted, so much doubt as to its success, that though there might be an appearance of advantage in many points of view, there were so many of a, contrary, tendency which presented themselves, at the same time, that he thought it would be better and safer to adhere to the mode which our excellent constitution had pointed out. His lordship declared himself averse to the system of innovation, which this motion was calculated to produce, and thought it wise to abide by that system which we knew, and of which we had felt the happy effect, by which the British army had been the glory of its country the terror of its foes, and the admiration of the world. He had gone through all the different statements of the noble lords who supported, the motion; he had endeavoured to prove there was no power equal to us upon earth in force, and that the discipline of that force was better than at any former period; he had proved that there was no specific ground for this motion, and that if any noble lord thought, his majesty's ministers had neglected their duty, the regular way was to move an address to his majesty to remove them. He had nothing more to do than, to take notice of the allusion made to what he had said on a former occasion, of the probability being diminished of the enemy making an attempt to attack us by descent; it was true he had said so, but to what was it owing? To a conviction that it would be the ruin and destruction of those who should attempt it. This was the result of the zeal and spirit of the people of this country, from She commencement of the present war to the present hour, wherein they had shewn themselves greater than ever they appeared in any former period of its history. This was known; this was felt in every part of the world; the effects of which, he was convinced, would prove not only beneficial to us and advantageous to our security, but of permanent advantage, and finally conducive to the security of every country in the world.

Earl Darnley

rose, in support of the motion. His lordship gave his ample assent and approbation to what the noble secretary had observed respecting the zeal and energy with which all ranks had Stepped forward in opposition to the designs of the common enemy; but he objected very much to the arguments which had been used against the motion, and which were precisely the same with which the late administration had, in the last session, combatted their opponents upon bills of a similar tendency to the presents He thought the opposition of the noble secretary too general; deprecated that part of it relating to the time of service, for which the troops were to be considered as engaged, and which his lordship stated required great alterations; and, though he professed the greatest conviction of the noble secretary's abilities for the conduct of the war department, his lordship differed from him materially with respect to the efficiency of the reasons adduced in defence of the bill, and which in his opinion seemed to have no tendency towards the grand end of a speedy termination of the war. His lordship went on to shew, that the military state of the country was not adequate to what was required by the exigencies of the occasion, such as his majesty's ministers themselves described them, nor to the resources and spirit of the country, if properly called forth and directed. With respect to the talents, and capacity, and character of his majesty's ministers, he thought it fair, and just, and parliamentary to consider them, when any of their measures were under consideration, and to introduce the discussions of these measures when the inefficiency of them afforded proof of the incapacity of their authors. Here the noble lord entered into an examination of the amount of the change that had taken place in the govt. The noble and learned lord on the woolsack was still the same, nor did he wish to see any change take place wit, respect to him, The lord Privy Seal had the same weight and the same talents which he had in the last and in the preceding administration, and which he may hold in many succeeding ones. His noble friend opposite (lord Hawkesbury) had been put but of a situation for which he had at first been declared eminently qualified, and was replaced by his other noble friend (lord Mulgrave), whose military abilities he respected, but who could not by military talents and military experience, be qualified for a place so little connected with military objects: was there the same weight of character and respectability in the right hon. gent, at the head of the govt.? well, indeed, it might be said of that right hon. gent. quantum mutates ab illo! How much had he suffered by taking to his bosom the noble lord opposite, whom he had driven from the govt. as incapable! The noble lord at the head of the Admiralty was another example of the distribution of office without regard to experience. What the noble lord might do remained yet to be ascertained His first effort, the catamaran expedition, did not promise much, and his capacity for the office could not be compared with the noble lord who had left it. He would readily conform to the noble lord's (Hawkesbury)idea, of moving directly for the dismissal of his majesty's ministers, if he thought the motion would be attended with any success.

The Earl of Suffolk

took a retrospect of the manner in which the militia had been recruited, the Army of Reserve raised, and the general effects of the Defence Act, considering it as an object of reproach not only to his majesty's ministers, but to their lordships, that they should persevere in a measure, which must, from concomitant circumstances; progressively decrease the raising of a disposable force, most particularly at this season of the year when the time of harvest was approaching, and so many persons were engaged in agriculture. His lordship then adverted to the statement of the noble secretary of state, specifying the number of regular regiments, militia, &c. and made some general observations adverse to the mode of raising and using black regiments for the service of the West India Islands.

The Duke of Montrose

in answer observed, that the black regiments during the last war had displayed most evident marks of their fidelity and courage in repelling the Spaniards who had attacked that part of our settlements. When these troops were well treated, his majesty might depend upon their faithful services; and he I was well satisfied, it was worthy the serious discussion of parliament to enquire into the state of these people, and ameliorate their condition as much as possible, His lordship insisted that the bill in question was a most effectual one for the purposes intended, and would prove much I more so, when it was understood throughout the kingdom to be the determination of parliament to persist in it. The reason it had not been so productive hitherto was, I because the raising the militia and Army of Reserve had drained the country for a time; but, after a year or two, it would be found most productive indeed. The object of the question then before their lordships was, not which was the best means of discussing a military question; it was not a motion for considering and enquiring into the state of the military? force of the country; but it was a motion for an address to his majesty, to remove his present ministers: upon this, however, he observed, that were certain persons to be admitted to his majesty's councils today, they would not remain in that situation for three mouths.

The Earl of Carisfort

did not by any means consider the motion of his noble friend in that point of view; it was a motion replete with wisdom, and well deserving their lordships consideration. The noble secretary of state set out with a pompous enumeration of the number of forces raised for the protection of the country and annoyance of the enemy, and of their state of discipline. The most ample means had been put into the hands of his majesty's ministers by the votes of both houses of parliament; but, with all these advantages, he would ask, what had been effected? Was it a situation for G. Britain to be in, after two years war, after having been menaced during the whole of that time with invasion, and with 800,000 men in arms, not to be able to retort those threats upon the enemy? he was at a loss to know the drift of the noble secretary of state's argument, when he talked of such a number of men in arms. What he wanted to be informed of, what he wished to be assured of, was that we had the means of maintaining a successful war against the enemy. That we had not only a sufficient force for the defence of the country, but a regular disposeable force to annoy the ene- my on his own shores, and to retaliate that menace of invasion, not by words alone, but by actions. With respect to the volunteer force, it was returned as 300,000 effective men; it was not his intention, who was nine or ten years himself a volunteer, to depreciate that measure, he considered it a most efficient and excellent measure in the hands of a wise administration. This most respectable force was raised and organized the last war, upon the renewal of hostilities; they only waited for some constitutional call to come forward to a man, to give confidence to the govt. and to deter the enemy. What measures were then resorted to? nothing was left to voluntary exertions: the gentlemen of the country were called upon to head their neighbours and tenants, and to animate them by their example; but no sooner was this effected, than new methods were resorted to, to cool their ardour and damp their spirit. Inspecting officers were put over them, the strongest proof of the mistrust of govt. of those very persons on whom they affected to depend; but, notwithstanding all this, they continued with unabated zeal to protect their country. With respect to the regular army, which he considered the most important part of the service, his great object was, that we might retort upon the enemy, and assert the dignity of the British nation, which could only be done by a regular, numerous, and disposable force. It was stated, that this force amounted to eighty thousand men, for which number he would give full credit, however a considerable deduction should be made for the army raised for a limited service; taking, therefore, the regular army, artillery, &. what would be the whole amount out of 80,000? not more than 40,000, he contended, would be found effectual. Was this number meant to strike terror into the enemy? What, then, was to be said of his majesty's ministers, at the head of upwards of 16 million of people, amongst whom the greatest emulation prevailed against a particular enemy, after three years war, only procuring a disposeable force of 40,000 men? Surely those ministers did not deserve any praise for this: on the contrary, they merited most decided disapprobation. He therefore conceived, upon the most scrutinous review of the subject, that there must be a radical defect in the mode of raising men. The measures pursued were commenced with raisins the militia, and then balloting for the army of reserve; it becoming necessary to recruit the regular army, a considerable deficiency took place in those forces, so that those measures were uniformly destructive of the intended purposes; and this nation, the greatest in Europe, or in the page of history, left without the means of annoying her enemy, instead of contending successfully against France. His lordship did not feel that they should be justified in wasting the treasure of the country, and spilling the blood of his majesty's subjects, in a war so destructive, without making Some effort to put down the pride and ambition of the enemy. The noble secretary of state had said, we now had a greater force than ever we had. Whatever the establishment might be, it ought at least to be commensurate to the danger. We were not to inquire the number of the forces, but the effect of them. It was also said, that the army of reserve was now as high as ever it was; his majesty's ministers had endeavoured to provide for recruiting that force which proved insufficient: must it not then be said, that all which could be done had been done, and after a trial for so long a time, without effect, could the absolute necessity of parliament to investigate the matter be denied? To what sentiment constitutionally or politically, could the opposition of his majesty's ministers be ascribed? In conclusion, his lordship again called the attention of the house to the one great consideration, that of having a numerous regular and disposeable force. Our situation with regard to the enemy, if no longer dangerous, would be not disgraceful; but, after all the exertions which were made, after all the forces which could be collected, we were still open to the same danger, the same disgrace, and parliament could no longer refrain from interfering.

The Earl of Westmoreland

wished the noble lords on the other side to look back to their own conduct and their own measures before they condemned the present administration for pursuing and improving what they had instituted. The noble lords opposite were entitled to the gratitude of the nation for having instituted these measures, and he was only, astonished that they could disapprove of the continuation and improvement of them by the present and ministration. The military state of the country was amply sufficient to justify his majesty's government, and to hold out the most satisfactory expectations to the country. He wished the noble lords opposite would propose the plans which they meant to suggest in the committee, if they had any such or did they mean to withhold them till the happy day when they themselves would be in the cabinet, and the country would have every thing clone? that could be wished for? He defended the act of last session, from which much benefit was to be expected; it had not operated till late in the reason, because its provisions were not sooner understood by those who were to carry it into effect; its effect bad been tardy because a belief had been infused into them that the penalties were not to be enforced. He thought the enlorcement of the penalties indispensible to the complete success of the measure

Lord Grenville

said, he would not reply either to the arguments or to the wish of the noble lord who had just sat down. He would leave both to make their foil impression on their lordships with the conviction, that the best idea that could be formed of the minds from which proceeded the measures he and his noble friends condemned, was from the speeches with which it was attempted to support them? He wished, however, that the noble lord, in pity, not to those on that side, but to those whom he wished to defend, bad looked to his right hand and his left before he ventured to charge him and his noble friends with inconsistency, in not supporting the measures the present government had brought forward. he did not mean to charge inconsistency upon his noble friend opposite, who voted for a motion similar to this last year, and who would vote against it this year. He thought that any man who saw reason to think the military state of the country greatly improved, acted an honest and conscientious part in giving his vote accordingly; but for himself, who saw not the smallest reason for changing his former opinion on this subject, lie thought it but reasonable and fair to claim credit at least for consistency, when he thought that if ever necessary, it was tenfold necessary now. But before he proceeded to that part of what he intended to offer to their lordships, he should observe upon the language that had fallen from the noble secretary of state opposite, that it was not fit that any proposition relative to the military state of the country should be originated in parliament, but by the executive government; Gould it be heard without astonishment, in the parlia- ment of the United Kingdom of G. Britain and Ireland, that that parliament, which regulated and controuled by its acts the amount, the description, and the discipline of the whole armed force of the empire, and which, for the purpose of having that controul more complete, voted all the military acts only from year to year—was: it to be heard without astonishment and indignation, that that parliament, or any member of it, bad no right to interfere with its own military acts! that it was to be converted into a mere elective assembly, to sanction or reject by its vote whatever ministers the crown may appoint, and whatever measures those ministers may propose! Such language had for the first time within his parliamentary experience, and he believed within the records of parliament, been uttered this night by a secretary of state, and he was sorry to say, as yet without any mark of the disapprobation of their lordships. In looking back to the proceedings of last year, when a motion precisely similar to that made this night was supported by all that was eminent in rank, talents, and property, in the country, united in what the noble lord opposite was pleased to call a faction, it was but natural to ask, what had been done since to convince any one, except, those who were then of that faction, but now members of the present able administration, that a similar enquiry was not deemed necessary now? Much as he had heard this night with sorrow, there was one thing that he had heard with infinite satisfaction. It was the avowal that the act of last year, the repeal of which had been moved by a noble friend of his, should be altered. He for one would most gladly support any alteration that might be proposed, for it was impossible that any alteration could have any effect but to amend it, though no alteration would be complete but that of a total repeal. He was sure the noble lords opposite saw the necessity of the repeal, for if they did not repeal it, it would repeal itself by falling to a mere nullity. It was, indeed, impossible the act could be enforced by the levy of the penalties. The act gave powers to the parish officers and the penalties were to fall on the parishes, which had no controul over the parish officers to compel them to do their duty. He was sure no court of law in England would compel a man to pay a fine incorred by no delinquency of his own not by any default which it was not in his power to prevent or controul. He was sure, that if any court of law could be found to authorize such an injustice against the whole people of England, it would be impossible to enforce the decision. In proceeding, however, to the alteration proposed, it was singular that their lordships would have to take the very same step which was now refused because it came from that side of the house. They should go into a committee, in which the whole military state of the country was to be considered. The measure had been proposed at a period when we were told to count not weeks or days, but hours, in expectation of the danger of invasion. It was brought forward as a means of immediately raising a considerable force; yet, after all the predictions that had been, made, and the expectations that had been formed of its success, the result was almost too trifling to be mentioned. Supposing, which he much doubted, that it had raised 2,500 men, was that a number of which a great nation like this could boast, when it was considered how much had been vaunted of the act before it was put in force? The noble secretary of state, in the very extraordinary and delusive statement that he had this evening made, of what he termed the military force of the country, instead of shewing distinctly the situation in which it stood, had wrapped the seamen, the volunteers, & round the real military force, for the purpose, no doubt, of disguising it as much as possible. The object of the Additional Defence act was not to increase our whole military strength, but to raise a large and immediate disposable force. With all the claims which administration had made to the gratitude of the country for their exertions, if the house would look to the returns of the British infantry, they would rind, that in the last year, instead of having increased, it had decreased. On the 1st of Jan. 1804, the number was 105,886; on the 1st Jan. 1805, it only amounted to 105,033, making a decrease of 853 men in the year. After deducting garrisons, & there remained British infantry for general field service 78,195; but an allowance must be made for casualties that had taken place abroad, and of which no mention was made in the returns on the table. In the East Indies, where such bloody, though glorious, battles had been fought, and in the West Indies, where a malignant distemper prevailed, be could not calculate these casual ties at less than 4,000, reducing the whole number to 74,19. The apportionment of v these troops would be, abroad 31,113, at c home 43,082. But the house should recollect, that our establishments in different t pans of the world must be maintained, c and this, on a moderate computation, would require thirteen thousand men, which I would leave the British infantry in this I country about 30,000 men. The only chance we had of re-establishing G. Britain in the rank which she held in Europe, before the peace of Amiens, was by a. cooperation with the continental powers; but to make this co-operation effectual, we must not be satisfied with granting pecuniary succours; how were we qualified to afford any other? We had but the paltry disposable force of 30,000 men; nor could we send even those to the continent, unless we determined to leave G. Britain with no other defence than the militia and Volunteers, and Ireland with no defence but the militia alone. The noble lord commented severely on the array of reserve act which he termed a wretched measure. It had been imagined by some, that if the defence act were repealed, recourse must be had again to the army of reserve act; but of this there was no danger. He recommended strongly the recruiting for limited service, and concluded by declaring his hearty assent to the motion of his noble friend.

Lord Mulgrace

defended the noble lord? (Hawkesbury) from the charge of having said that parliament had no right to discuss military questions. His noble friend, who had arraigned this position with so much asperity, had totally misrepresented his noble friend, who said merely that parliament ought not to originate and devise military plans, unless in cases of the utmost necessity; such as did not now exist. He denied that any such motion as the present had been adopted last year for no such motion had even been debated. For his own part, though he had concurred in thinking that some change in administration was necessary, he by no mean ever went so far as to think that all tin military plans of the late ministry should be repealed. Of the army of reserve ac bethought that it had been of essential service to the public, and that it was suspended, not because it was bad but be cause it was no longer necessary. H contended that the measure so much arrangued had not received sufficient trial and that what trial had taken place encou- raged a belief, that it would produce men without impeding the other means of recruiting the army, But neither that, nor any other plan, could be effectual, unless pursued with constancy; nor if it was thwarted by conflicting measures, and, enfeebled by doubts and uncertainty, as to its continuance. As then there was no necessity for entering upon a course of inquiry which was likely to obstruct, rather than promote the public safety, as the state of the national defence was such as to afford us a well grounded confidence of success, should it be called into action, he was decidedly hostile to the motion.

The Lord Chancellor

defended the military system of the late administration, lie stated the motion, and contended that the latter part of it, which proposed that the house should, alter revising the existing laws on the subject, proceed to devise other plans of military defence, was highly objectionable. He did not deny the right of the house to do so; but he was certain that nothing but the overbearing necessity could induce the house to assume the initiation of measures which, in general, it was adviseable to leave to the executive government The additional force act, he was convinced, would produce men if it had a fair opportunity of being tried; And if parishes found that there was no chance of its being repealed, exertions for that purpose would be made. As to the raising of the penalties, the law possessed means of enforcing them, audit was just and necessary for the public service, that in this, as in many other cases, and particularly in cases of a similar kind last war, they should be enforced. Notwithstanding the charges of imbecility and weakness, so boldly made against the late ministry, they had done everything that any: men, that all the talents and property of is the country could have been expected to do for the public safety. As to the decay of the influence of this country, owing to the treaty of Amiens, he observed, that the influence of this country on the continent was as little before that treaty as after le it. One advantage of that treaty was, that Id it had afforded the means of preparing ct those effectual measures of defence that al had been provided in this war, into which we had been driven, by leading to that unanimity which had facilitated our exertions. Upon the whole, he saw no advantage to be derived from that revision of acts which had been, highly beneficial to the state, which were suspended because they had done their business; and particularly he was adverse to that part of the motion which proposed to go into a committee to devise farther measures of military defence—a proposal wholly unwarranted by the circumstances of the country.

The Duke of Clarence

stated shortly his reasons for supporting the motion. He thought that every part of our military establishment deserved serious revision. He referred to his own calculations respecting the extraordinary deficiencies in our regular force, compared with its actual amount, and contended that the more he considered this subject, the more he was convinced of the necessity of going into the inquiry which his noble friend had proposed. Another noble friend of his had, on a former occasion, alluded to the defence act, and had exposed its nullity in strong and conclusive terms. This, however, was the only thing which ministers had even attempted to increase our disposable force, and no noble lord could look at its effects without owning, if be spoke his real sentiments, that to trust to such a measure as a means of recruiting our army was little better than downright trifling. He thought that a noble viscount opposite (lord Sidmouth) and some of his late friends, were bound in consistency to vote for the committee if it were for no purpose but that of getting rid of a bill, which last session they had so severely condemned. Among other topics which his R. H. employed in support of the motion, was the state of the army employed in the colonies. The immense draughts of our regular troops to the West India Islands had long been a matter of deep regret, and the means of counteracting this evil had long occupied the attention of military men. The plan of employing corps of Sepoys in these settlements was one which had long struck him as worthy of serious consideration, and which would, if the committee were granted, of course be fully and deliberately enquired into. Many other important points, which on? this as well as on former occasions had been referred, would also demand serious investigation. His R. H. alluded to the present state of the naval defence, which he maintained was inferior in efficiency to what was supported by the noble lord lately at the head of the naval department. Here again he conceived a noble viscount opposite (lord Sidmouth) called on to state whether he gave any countenance to the accusation brought forward in another place against the late admiralty. Honour as well as manliness called on the. noble viscount to disavow such accusations, if he thought them unfounded.

Lord Sidmouth

intreated the indulgence of the house for a few moments, the more so, as he was solicitous to answer what he could not help conceiving to be a personal attack. He was particularly hurt by the insinuations of the illustrious personage who just sat down, which seemed pointedly to accuse him of versatility and inconsistency. He must beg leave to say, that: such a charge, in the present instance, from whatever quarter it might come, was wholly without foundation. He had often been called upon to deliver his opinion respecting the measure which formed the chief topic of this night's debate; and on no occasion did he advance any sentiments different from those which he bad formerly expressed respecting it. He had always asserted that it would not be attended with that immediate effect which it was supposed could result from it; and if he now consented to give it a fuller and more prolonged trial, it was out of respect for the sanction of the legislature by which it had been harboured. Never was it his idea or intention that it should oppress the people in the form of a tax; and should it be proved so to operate, it should no longer meet with his approbation and support. With respect to the great variety of extraneous topics which had been introduced into the debate, and many of which, had been personally directed against himself, he should only say, that most of them, if not all, had no real foundation in fact. A noble baron (Grenville) had, on this and many other occasions, been very prodigal of opprobrious epithets in describing the administration of which, he bad formed a part. The terms imbecility and incapacity were continually used to characterise it; but he still did not fear to challeuge that noble baron, or any other noble lord who indulged in the same accusations, to come forward with; the statement of any one particular measure of his administration to which those insulting terms could justly apply. In the naval department he had seen nothing but wisdom, energy, and unremitting activity, and he should never in that house suffer any contrary assertion to pass uncontradicted. The same observation he felt himself called on to make, as to all the other departments. Every one of the measures by which the army was aug- mented, had originated with the late ministers. The foreign corps, the German Legion, the Irish Levies, not to mention the very extensive measure of the Army of Reserve, were all planned and put in a train of execution before any change in the: government took place. As to the defence act, on which so much had been Said by many noble lords, he certainly had, in the first instance, disapproved of it, and though his opinion was not changed as to the principle, he was bound to bow to the wisdom of parliament which had formed it into a law. As it was now a law, he was desirous that the measure should be fairly tried on a great scale, and if it should not succeed, it would then be in the power bf noble lords to move for its repeal — With respect to the much condemned treaty of Amiens, such as that treaty was, it had been productive of the best consequences to the country. It was made under the necessity that the government should no longer resist the voice of the people for peace; and in yielding to that call, government gave rise to that conviction, which since had been productive of the best effects, namely, that the nation were now sensible that a great and last exertion must be made to give security and: permanence to whatever treaty may hereafter be entered into. It is to that treaty Of Amiens that the country is also indebted for any improvement that may have since been made in our relative situation as to the continent. The moderation which that treaty evinced on our part, and the views that it opened to the great powers of Europe, more particularly to those of the North, were among the principal fetuses of the friendly disposition which they have since manifested towards this country. The noble viscount concluded by deprecating the present motion as a measure that must be practically mischievous in as much as it must tend, under such a critical situation of the country, to unhinge all the measures that have? hitherto been devised for its defence and security.

Lord Melville

vindicated the measures of fete administration of which he had formed a part, in conjunction with the noble bacon (Grenville), who this night had been no acrimonious in his charge against his Bitter colleagues. Not one of the measures that had been adopted but he could fully justify, and the noble baron must be sensible as he was of the expediency or the necessity by which they were vindicated. The noble viscount expatiated on the merits of our victories in Egypt, and claimed the full praise of them to the administration of which he was then a member. He was not a little astonished at the mode of proceeding which some noble lords had adopted in defending the motion: almost the whole of their arguments were directed against the Additional Force bill, and seemed to have nothing in view but its repeal. This surely was not a very parliamentary mode of proceeding; for not much more than a fortnight ago a motion had been directly made and negatived by that house for a repeal of that act; yet, if the arguments urged now in defence of the present motion were properly considered, they would be found to have no other object in view but the repeal of that act, respecting which their lordships had already decided.

Earl Spencer

could not but express, his surprise at the complete misrepresentation, by the noble viscount, of what had been advanced on his side of the house. It was not merely the repeal of the defence act which the present motion had in contemplation, but a great variety of other improvements, and the adoption of other means by which our military system might be much perfected. Equally inconsistent was the noble and learned lord on the woolsack in urging the same objection; for when the repeal of the act was proposed, that learned lord opposed the Motion on the ground that it referred to a single measure, and to no new system of measures that might tend to supply its place. When a motion was now proposed to furnish that new system or the opportunity of devising it, that motion equally met with the learned lord's disapprobation and opposition. Such misrepresentations and inconsistencies it was impossible for him to allow to pass by unnoticed and un-reproved. Of the necessity of such a motion as the present he was convinced, and under that conviction he must vote for its adoption.—The question was loudly called for, and on a division there appeared for the motion—

contents	52
Non-contents	127
Majority	75

List of the Minority
Duke of Clarence	Duke of Norfolk
Duke of Devon	Duke of Bedford

Duke of Richmond	Earl of Leicester
Duke of Grafton	Earl Fortescue
Duke Of St Albans	Eard Darntey
Marquis Of Buckingham	Earl of Cassills
Marquis of Bute	Earl of Stair
Marquis of Stafford	Earl of Broadalbane
Marquis of Lansdown	Earl of Besborough
Marquis of Headfort	Earl Moira
Earl of Derby	Viscount Hereford
Earl of Suffolk	Viscount Maynard
Earl of Carlisle	Lord De Clifford
Earl Fitzwilliam	Lord St. John
Earl Spencer	Lord Walpole
Earl of Berkeley	Lord King
Earl of Thanet	Lord Stawell
Earl of Albemarle	Lord Grantley
Earl of Peterborough	Lord Grenville
Earl of Cholmondeley	Lord Dundas
Earl Stanhope	Lord Yarborough
Earl of Portsmouth	Lord Carysfort
Earl of Guildford	Lord Hutchinson
Earl Cowper	Lord Minto
Earl of Tankerville	Lord Cawdor
Earl of Carnarvon	Bishop of Bangor.