HL Deb 06 March 1805 vol 3 cc715-9
Earl Fortescue

brought forward the motion, of which he had given notice on a former evening, upon this subject. The noble earl called to the recollection of the house the circumstance of the disturbances which took place in the county of Devon, in the spring of the year 1801; about which time, a species of mutiny existed in certain of his majesty's dock-yards. To these his attention had been called in his official capacity of lord lieutenant of that county; the then high prices of corn and other articles of provision were held out as the pretext, and, perhaps, might, in some degree, be the cause. In the course of the disturbances, several acts of violence took place, and it shortly appeared that the parties were actuated by motives distinct from those which had been held out as the pretexts. The contagion was spread to the dock-yards, where it operated in a manner the most dangerous. In its progress, plans of communication with the royal dock-yards in other quarters, and committees of correspondence were established, for the purpose of enforcing the claims of the refractory artificers, He had done whatever lay in his power to satisfy those persons, and to allay the dis- turbances; it was, however, at the same time, obviously proper to proceed with the utmost caution, and under the circumstances of the case, he had deemed it expedient to communicate to his majesty's ministers what observations he had made, and the impression left upon his mind. The communication was officially made in the first instance to a noble duke, then at the head of the home department. It was the wish of the government to avail itself of his local Knowledge upon the occasion; he accordingly gave every information upon the subject in his power. It was not his intention then to take up their lordships' time, neither did he think it would be regular to enter into any details of the transactions alluded to, or notices of the correspondence; at length he received notice from a noble earl, now in his place, and then at the head of the board of admiralty, that a commission had been appointed to enquire into the proceedings in question; and thoroughly investigating the circumstances of the case; the result of these enquiries was, as he understood, the dismissal from his majesty's dock-yards of more than one hundred persons. He had left all his documents upon the subject in the country, not imagining the subject would ever again be revived. He therefore could not speak precisely, but the number he believed was from one hundred to an hundred and twenty; these men were discharged, and the measure was followed up by sending the names of the culprits to all the other king's, and even to the merchants' dock-yards, in order, as he should imagine, that they should not be received or employed in them. But he afterwards learned, and he had no reason to doubt the truth of his information, that several of the dismissed artificers had been received into his majesty's dock-yards. He must take it for granted, that the dismissal proceeded upon strong and cogent grounds, with out which, a step, which might otherwise appear tinctured with cruelty and inhumanity, would not, he believed, be taken. He did not mean to propose any specific proceeding as to the affair in question; but he held it as a part of his public duty, to call the attention of parliament to the fact he had adverted to. He was the farther induced to this, when he recollected the confidence reposed in him on the occasion; by the noble earl then at the head of the admiralty, even under his own responsibility. He repeated his opinion, that neither the noble earl, nor any of those respectable persons, who constituted the board, over which he presided would deprive the individuals in question of their situations, without strong and adequate grounds. He was persuaded it had been the result of diligent investigation and a conviction, that the continuance of such persons in their situations was, so far, incompatible with the public safety. Under these impressions, he had called their lordships' attention to the circumstance, and should beg leave simply to move, 1st. That a list of the names of such artificers as were discharged by the commissioners of naval enquiry in April 1801, in consequence of a mutiny then existing, be laid before the house. And 2dly. A list of the names of such artificers as may have entered into his majesty's dock-yards, as they have respectively reentered."

Lord Melville

apologised for his absence yesterday. He had been, he observed, but of town, and had not heard of the noble earl's intended motion, in time to arrive at the proper hour yesterday. He hoped their lordships would deem him incapable of any thing that might, however remotely, appear disrespectful, either to their lordships in general, or to any individual peer; more especially on a question in which, to a certain degree, his own conduct might appear to be implicated. Upon the motion of the noble earl, after what he had perused, he had little to say, as it was not his intention to resist, substantially, the production of what was required; and, for reasons similar to those assigned by the noble earl, he should refrain from entering into any detailed considerations of what had been referred to. In doing this, he felt but one reluctance, which was, that, as the noble earl had avoided speaking of himself as little as possible, in which he followed the same line which had distinguished all his life, he should have no opportunity of reciting circumstances, which would redound so greatly to the noble earl's honour, in his capacity of lord lieutenant of the county of Devon. In another point of view, he was of opinion, that, to enter into the details alluded to, would be improper, as it might produce mischief, but could possibly produce no good. Upon that ground, if any thing had dropped from the noble earl, tending to shew a disposition to make the result a subject of farther enquiry or proceeding, he should have taken the liberty to ask the noble lord what his intentions on that head were; as he might, according to that answer, find it his duty to lay other documents for the perusal of their lordships, and to enable them fully to understand the subject. His only reason for making these allegations at present was, that if, after the required information should be laid before the house, any farther motion or proceeding should take place in consequence, he should reserve to himself the power of moving for any other documents that he might conceive necessary for the full illustration of the subject. With respect to the substance of the motion now before their lordship's, he repeated he had no desire to oppose it; but he deemed it necessary to suggest an alteration in its wording, and which he thought, would be better calculated to obtain the information desired. The names of the individuals should not be recited. The purpose would be as fully answered, if the respective trades and occupations of the individuals in question were specified. Their lordships would conceive, that these persons were dispersed in different dock-yards, and in several parts of the kingdom, if at all in the country. It would answer no good purpose, he thought, to hold forth the names of such individuals, as culprits, guilty of offences years ago, whose conduct since, might be sober, orderly, and unobjectionable. The number of such persons as might have so re-entered, would answer without a specification of their names. He also was inclined to object to the word 'mutiny' in the motion. As the general charge against these persons might be classed under two beads: the first, that of combination for a permanent increase of pay, the appointment of delegates, &c.; the second, for the share they had in those disturbances, in the shape of sedition, which then prevailed in several parts of Devonshire; though it was then deemed expedient to consolidate both considerations into one general charge. Modelled in the way he described, he had no objection to the motion.

Earl St. Vincent

expressed his opinion, that the considerations adverted to by the noble earl were of great importance, and the country was highly indebted to him for his conduct upon the occasion; were it not for the temperate and firm tone of his measures, the whole county of Devon would have been, he believed, not only in a state of disturbance, but in actual rebellion. At the same time it was fair to say, that the exertions of the noble earl were very well and effectually seconded by lieut. gen. Simcoe and other officers. It was well known to the noble lord on the woolsack, and to the secretaries of state, that what he then asserted was founded in truth.

Earl Fortescue

spoke in explanation. He came forward entirely from a sense of public duty. With respect to the objection of the noble viscount, he was inclined to believe, that the names of many of the individuals would not be accurately set forth. Persons so circumstanced were not unfrequeutly in the habit of changing their names. He did not think the proposed alteration of much importance, and therefore had no objection to the amendment.

Earl St. Vincent

seemed to think the proposed alteration would make a very material difference. The names were important to be specified, as without them it was morally impossible their lordships could be accurately informed.

Lord Melville

then moved, as amendments to the motion, that the words "of the names of" be left out, and to insert the words "of the number of, together with the respective trades and occupations," in their room; and also a corresponding amendment in the second part of the motion. These amendments were agreed to by their lordships, who ordered the information, as specified in the amended motion, to be laid before the house.