Lords Sitting of 6 March 1805

CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX.
Lord walsingham,as chairman of the committee, to whom it was referred to consider of and investigate the various matters alleged in the charge against Mr. Justice Fox, came forward, pursuant to his notice of yesterday, and of a resolution of the committee. He adverted generally to the serious and uniform attention which the lords committees had paid to the important subject under their consideration; and

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in which it was their wish to proceed in the most unexceptionable manner, as well with a reference to individual as to public justice. Under these considerations, the noble chairman moved to the following effect: "That the said committee be empowered to report from time to time, respecting the matters exhibited before them, and to state their opinions separately upon any of the articles of charge, if, on due examination thereof, they should find sufficient grounds for the same."
The Earl of Carlisleexpressed his disapprobation of the motion. He was adverse from the mode of offering any partial reports to the house upon the subject. He rather thought the committees should be instructed to withhold all reports until the whole of the charges against the accused should be gone through. The course generally adopted by grand juries would be the best to adopt in the present instance, which was to consider of, investigate, find, or throw out all the bills brought before them, instead of deciding upon any one, two, or three separate charges of what they might have to consider. He thought the duty imposed upon the committee, in the present instance, was similar to that which grand juries of the country had to fulfil. In considering the question then before the house, the situation of the accused, one of a very serious nature ought to be considered; the possibility of his being brought to the bar upon any one or two of the charges, while the rest may be pending or undecided, the situation of the accused person's mind, on such an occasion, was worthy of consideration. Added to this, was that of the contingency of his being voted guiltless of the particular charges reported to the house, and no opinion being subsequently stated, or decision made as to the remaining charges; a contingency, which, he thought, in point of fairness to the individual, as well as in justice to the public at large, ought to be seriously considered, and, in his opinion, was worthy of being made the subject of a specific motion.
Lord Hawkesburyobserved, that it was certainly irregular to allude, in the house, to what passed in discussion in a committed, otherwise he might particularly call to the recollection of the noble earl, that the resolution, on which the motion before the house was grounded, was not adopted without the most nature and de-
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liberate consideration in the committee. The topic now regularly under consideration was by no means extensive, and its merits lay in a narrow compass. The motion referred not to any decision of the committee; it went to empower them, from time to time, to report their opinions upon any, or upon what charge, which they might deem of sufficient importance, to be brought under the consideration of the house, with a reference to a question, for the removal of the accused. The motion went not to bind, or in any way pledge, either the committee or the house, to any specific or particular line of proceeding. It would be for the committee hereafter to decide, whether or not they shall make a specific report on any particular charge, without going through the whole. It went to prejudice no point whatever, in consideration before the committee. Should they think any particular charge or charges weighty enough for a specific report, they would proceed accordingly. Neither would the house be affected by the motion; it would be at the option of the house, whether a proceeding at its bar should be adopted in consequence; or, upon its view of the charge, refer it back to the consideration of the committee, or call upon them to state their opinion upon all the charges; or whether a middle course should be adopted: these options would certainly rest in the house; and their agreeing to the motion of the noble chairman, would in no shape affect the proceedings, either in the way of convenience, or in reference to the consideration of private or public justice. The motion, therefore, which was unanimously approved in the committee, should have his decided support.
The Earl of Carlislespoke in explanation. He repeated his idea of the possibility of their lordships having, in consequence of the report of the committee upon some particular charge, to put the accused upon his trial; and, in the event of his being acquitted, and no opinion or decision being given or made, as to the other matters in charge, or, at least, in a way that such could go forth to the world; such a consideration may operate unfavourably with respect to the accused. In this point of view, he thought that some proceeding, obligatory upon the committee to go through the whole should be adopted.
Lord Grenvillethought the merits of the question now regularly before the house,

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lay in a narrow compass. He had merely to express, his determination, that if he in the smallest degree apprehended that either the decision of the committee or the house, upon any particular point, with reference to the subject under the consideration of the former, were precluded or pledged by the motion, he certainly should not give his assent to it. No question, as to a report upon any particular charge being specifically made, or a thorough investigation of the whole, was prejudged by the motion. Neither would the house be in, the smallest degree precluded from entertaining the question of proceeding hereafter in any particular mode. Neither the house nor the committee would in the least degree be bound by the motion; a consideration which he thought it proper should be understood.
The Lord Chancellorobserved, that the noble lord who had just sat down had exactly expressed his sense of the question before the house. The committee were left at full liberty to proceed as they should think fit, and the house would retain its option to adopt or reject the opinion of the committee.—The question was then put, and the motion carried.

DISMISSALS FROM THE DOCK-YARDS.
Earl Fortescuebrought forward the motion, of which he had given notice on a former evening, upon this subject. The noble earl called to the recollection of the house the circumstance of the disturbances which took place in the county of Devon, in the spring of the year 1801; about which time, a species of mutiny existed in certain of his majesty's dock-yards. To these his attention had been called in his official capacity of lord lieutenant of that county; the then high prices of corn and other articles of provision were held out as the pretext, and, perhaps, might, in some degree, be the cause. In the course of the disturbances, several acts of violence took place, and it shortly appeared that the parties were actuated by motives distinct from those which had been held out as the pretexts. The contagion was spread to the dock-yards, where it operated in a manner the most dangerous. In its progress, plans of communication with the royal dock-yards in other quarters, and committees of correspondence were established, for the purpose of enforcing the claims of the refractory artificers, He had done whatever lay in his power to satisfy those persons, and to allay the dis-
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turbances; it was, however, at the same time, obviously proper to proceed with the utmost caution, and under the circumstances of the case, he had deemed it expedient to communicate to his majesty's ministers what observations he had made, and the impression left upon his mind. The communication was officially made in the first instance to a noble duke, then at the head of the home department. It was the wish of the government to avail itself of his local Knowledge upon the occasion; he accordingly gave every information upon the subject in his power. It was not his intention then to take up their lordships' time, neither did he think it would be regular to enter into any details of the transactions alluded to, or notices of the correspondence; at length he received notice from a noble earl, now in his place, and then at the head of the board of admiralty, that a commission had been appointed to enquire into the proceedings in question; and thoroughly investigating the circumstances of the case; the result of these enquiries was, as he understood, the dismissal from his majesty's dock-yards of more than one hundred persons. He had left all his documents upon the subject in the country, not imagining the subject would ever again be revived. He therefore could not speak precisely, but the number he believed was from one hundred to an hundred and twenty; these men were discharged, and the measure was followed up by sending the names of the culprits to all the other king's, and even to the merchants' dock-yards, in order, as he should imagine, that they should not be received or employed in them. But he afterwards learned, and he had no reason to doubt the truth of his information, that several of the dismissed artificers had been received into his majesty's dock-yards. He must take it for granted, that the dismissal proceeded upon strong and cogent grounds, with out which, a step, which might otherwise appear tinctured with cruelty and inhumanity, would not, he believed, be taken. He did not mean to propose any specific proceeding as to the affair in question; but he held it as a part of his public duty, to call the attention of parliament to the fact he had adverted to. He was the farther induced to this, when he recollected the confidence reposed in him on the occasion; by the noble earl then at the head of the admiralty, even under his own responsibility. He repeated

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his opinion, that neither the noble earl, nor any of those respectable persons, who constituted the board, over which he presided would deprive the individuals in question of their situations, without strong and adequate grounds. He was persuaded it had been the result of diligent investigation and a conviction, that the continuance of such persons in their situations was, so far, incompatible with the public safety. Under these impressions, he had called their lordships' attention to the circumstance, and should beg leave simply to move, 1st. That a list of the names of such artificers as were discharged by the commissioners of naval enquiry in April 1801, in consequence of a mutiny then existing, be laid before the house. And 2dly. A list of the names of such artificers as may have entered into his majesty's dock-yards, as they have respectively reentered."
Lord Melvilleapologised for his absence yesterday. He had been, he observed, but of town, and had not heard of the noble earl's intended motion, in time to arrive at the proper hour yesterday. He hoped their lordships would deem him incapable of any thing that might, however remotely, appear disrespectful, either to their lordships in general, or to any individual peer; more especially on a question in which, to a certain degree, his own conduct might appear to be implicated. Upon the motion of the noble earl, after what he had perused, he had little to say, as it was not his intention to resist, substantially, the production of what was required; and, for reasons similar to those assigned by the noble earl, he should refrain from entering into any detailed considerations of what had been referred to. In doing this, he felt but one reluctance, which was, that, as the noble earl had avoided speaking of himself as little as possible, in which he followed the same line which had distinguished all his life, he should have no opportunity of reciting circumstances, which would redound so greatly to the noble earl's honour, in his capacity of lord lieutenant of the county of Devon. In another point of view, he was of opinion, that, to enter into the details alluded to, would be improper, as it might produce mischief, but could possibly produce no good. Upon that ground, if any thing had dropped from the noble earl, tending to shew a disposition to make the result a subject of farther enquiry or
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proceeding, he should have taken the liberty to ask the noble lord what his intentions on that head were; as he might, according to that answer, find it his duty to lay other documents for the perusal of their lordships, and to enable them fully to understand the subject. His only reason for making these allegations at present was, that if, after the required information should be laid before the house, any farther motion or proceeding should take place in consequence, he should reserve to himself the power of moving for any other documents that he might conceive necessary for the full illustration of the subject. With respect to the substance of the motion now before their lordship's, he repeated he had no desire to oppose it; but he deemed it necessary to suggest an alteration in its wording, and which he thought, would be better calculated to obtain the information desired. The names of the individuals should not be recited. The purpose would be as fully answered, if the respective trades and occupations of the individuals in question were specified. Their lordships would conceive, that these persons were dispersed in different dock-yards, and in several parts of the kingdom, if at all in the country. It would answer no good purpose, he thought, to hold forth the names of such individuals, as culprits, guilty of offences years ago, whose conduct since, might be sober, orderly, and unobjectionable. The number of such persons as might have so re-entered, would answer without a specification of their names. He also was inclined to object to the word 'mutiny' in the motion. As the general charge against these persons might be classed under two beads: the first, that of combination for a permanent increase of pay, the appointment of delegates, &c.; the second, for the share they had in those disturbances, in the shape of sedition, which then prevailed in several parts of Devonshire; though it was then deemed expedient to consolidate both considerations into one general charge. Modelled in the way he described, he had no objection to the motion.
Earl St. Vincentexpressed his opinion, that the considerations adverted to by the noble earl were of great importance, and the country was highly indebted to him for his conduct upon the occasion; were it not for the temperate and firm tone of his measures, the whole county of

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Devon would have been, he believed, not only in a state of disturbance, but in actual rebellion. At the same time it was fair to say, that the exertions of the noble earl were very well and effectually seconded by lieut. gen. Simcoe and other officers. It was well known to the noble lord on the woolsack, and to the secretaries of state, that what he then asserted was founded in truth.
Earl Fortescuespoke in explanation. He came forward entirely from a sense of public duty. With respect to the objection of the noble viscount, he was inclined to believe, that the names of many of the individuals would not be accurately set forth. Persons so circumstanced were not unfrequeutly in the habit of changing their names. He did not think the proposed alteration of much importance, and therefore had no objection to the amendment.
Earl St. Vincentseemed to think the proposed alteration would make a very material difference. The names were important to be specified, as without them it was morally impossible their lordships could be accurately informed.
Lord Melvillethen moved, as amendments to the motion, that the words "of the names of" be left out, and to insert the words "of the number of, together with the respective trades and occupations," in their room; and also a corresponding amendment in the second part of the motion. These amendments were agreed to by their lordships, who ordered the information, as specified in the amended motion, to be laid before the house.

IRISH HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION BILL.
Lord Kinggenerally called the attention of their lordships to the subject of which the measure of suspending the Habeas Corpus act in Ireland formed so prominent a part. He adverted to the circumstance of the bill being rapidly passed through that house, and contended, that sufficient information, or grounds, had pot been laid before the house, for the enactment of such a measure; a branch of the information, which, on glancing at the general subject, he conceived necessary, respected the transactions which had not long since taken place at the prison of Kilmainham. His lordship then in substance moved, that there be laid before the house a copy of the depotions of certaiin prisoners confined in the gaol of Kilmanham, taken before three judges of his majesty's court of king's bench in Ireland, who sat in the
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said prison for that purpose, on the 16th and 17th days of July last.
Lord Hawkesburyexpressed his wish, that the noble baron would postpone the motion, for a short time, as at present he was not prepared to say whether or not he ought to object to it. It was one of that particular nature, as obviously required some previous consideration or inquiry. He, therefore, wished his lordship would not press it.
Lord Kingreplied, he thought the subject matter of the motions was of a nature so clearly unobjectionable, as that he was surprised any opposition could be offered to it. He recollected what transpired on his recently agreeing to postpone another motion. For the present he seemed inclined to press it.
Lord Hawkesbury,in explanation, begged the noble baron to recollect that the motion alluded to as postponed was so deferred as his own act. On the present occasion, feeling that he was not prepared to give a decided opinion as to the merits of the motion, he would move the house to adjourn.
The Lord Chancellorsaid a few words in support of what had fallen from his noble friend. The question of adjournment was then put.
Lord Grenvillerose, and defended the observations of his noble friend. He considered the information required by the motion as unobjectionable, and necessary to be laid before the house; with a reference to the extraordinary powers vested in government by the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland, there could exist no doubt, that what had appeared, on an inquiry so constituted as that specified in the motion, was fit to be laid before that house. He thought it hard, when that part of the united kingdom was deprived of the benefit of the Habeas Corpus Act, that all relevant information, as hitherto called for, should be withheld. Were these denials persisted in, it would look as if they were inclined to abandon all constitutional controul on the exercise of such extraordinary powers as were now vested in ministers. They refused even to consider the state of the jails in that part of the united kingdom—a consideration they ware the more bound to do, as connected with an act recently passed by themselves.
The Lord Chancellorobserved, no man could possibly lament the necessity of suspending the Habeas Corpus act more than

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he did, nor could be more willing than himself to have every degree of proper information afforded. He, therefore, wished it to be understood, that, in supporting the motion for an adjournment that night, he by no means wished to oppose the production of any information whatever that ought to be given; but, that he only sought for an opportunity of informing himself whether the information required in the present instance was such as ought to he given.—His lordship then referred to the wording of the motion, particularly those words, "who sat for that purpose," from which, he could not collect for what purpose it was the sitting in question was held. The production required might involve the disclosure of circumstances, which, for a time at least, it may be highly necessary to keep secret, as information respecting traitorous conspiracies, &c.: the delay till to-morrow could at any rate make no difference, it would only give his majesty's ministers an opportunity of ascertaining, whether the depositions in question were or not of a nature fit to be laid before parliament: they wished only for an opportunity of knowing what line of conduct was proper to be pursued on the occasion.
The Earl of Derbyexpressed his opinion, that the positions advanced by the noble and learned lord, and his noble friend opposite to him, were as extraordinary positions as he had ever heard advanced in that house. It was the duty of ministers, particularly of the secretary of state for the home department, to be so informed with respect to subjects like that in question, as to be able to declare, at the moment, whether the motion was objectionable or not. It was extraordinary to see a secretary of state not informed upon such an occasion.
Lord Hawkesbury,in reply to the animadversions of the noble earl, insisted that the house was placed in a very extraordinary situation, by the conduct of the noble baron, in the present instance. Though not called for by their lordships orders, yet, in common courtesy to the house, a motion, which obviously called for consideration or enquiry, should not be passed, unless previous notice of it had been given. Such a motion as the present, he contended, required time to consider whether, under all the circumstances of the case, it should be agreed to or not. Time should be afforded for consulting with those whom it
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may be the duty of ministers on such subjects to recur to for information and advice. In proposing to adjourn, he meant not, in his present view of the subject, to oppose the motion it was, in fact, urging a request that it might be put off, so as to afford even a short interval for consideration. Such a course, he thought, should be adopted, with all questionable propositions, which were brought forward and urged without previous notice. He meant not to offer the least opinion as to the motion of the noble lord; but he thought that, independent of the merits of a question, the pressing of a motion without notice, as in the present case, was sufficient ground for urging an adjournment. The question was then put; lord Hawkesbury's motion agreed to; and an adjournment accordingly took place.