Lords Sitting of 20 June 1805

MINUTES
Counsel were further heard in the committee of privilege relative to the claim of sir Cecil Bishop to the Barony of Zouch.—Strangers were then excluded for some time, during which some bills were brought up from the commons. After our re-admission, the Lottery bill, the Militia Pay and Clothing bill, the Militia Adjutant's bill, the Militia Subaltern's bill, and some other bills, were read a third time and passed; as was also the Irish Commissioner's bill, after a few observations from the earl of Suffolk relative to the Barrack Department in Ireland and this country.—The Turnpike Act Amendment bill was also read a third time and passed, after leaving out, on the motion of the duke of Norfolk, the clause which gave the whole penalty to be applied to the repairs of the road.—The earl of Suffolk presented a petition from the churchwardens and inhabitants of St. Pancras against the St. Pancras Poor bill, but in consequence of some informality it was withdrawn, for the purpose of being presented again to-morrow.

HIS MAJESTY'S MESSAGE.
The order, of the day being moved for taking his majes-

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ty's most gracious message into consideration, which, as well as the message in question, (see p. 447) being read,
Lord Mulgrave said, that with respect to the address which he should have the honour of moving on the occasion of his majesty's message, he felt it unnecessary, at least in the first instance, to trouble their lordships with any observations. The address he should propose did not tend to pledge the house to any specific line of proceeding, beyond that which he was confident every one of their lordships would wish to adopt on the occasion. The address, merely founded on the message, would speak for itself, and to its substance, he thought no objection could possibly be made. At the same time, he wished, in case any objection should be made, it might be understood he was at liberty to offer some observations to their lordships upon the subject. The noble secretary then moved an address to the following effect: "to return the thanks of the house to his majesty for his most gracious communication; and to assure his majesty, that the house would readily concur in enabling his majesty to take due advantage of such opportunities as may occur, and to fulfil such engagements as the exigencies of affairs may require."—On the question being put:"
The Earl of Carysfort rose and said, that the question then before the house involved those propositions, on which it had been his intention to have troubled their lordships with his sentiments. In observing upon the proceeding of yesterday, and the question under consideration that evening, he should have to call their lordships' attention to the communication from the throne at the opening of the session, the proceedings adopted in consequence, and the degree of confident expectation which these communications necessarily excited. The question now before their lordships, notwithstanding the way in which the noble secretary seemed to treat it, Was one of great and peculiar importance. He thought he was authoritatively founded, in asserting that the vote of credit, to which the message and the address evidently referred, was to a greater extent than any proposed in similar circumstances, that ever appeared upon the records of parliament. He was authorised to say, because it was publicly spoken of, that the provision intended to be made, for enabling his majesty's, ministers to pursue whatever line of conduct they should think proper, was no less than the enormous sum of five millions; an
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amount equal to the whole revenue of many of the potentates of the first rank in Europe. At a proceeding of this kind, he was perfectly astonished. He would ask upon what grounds ministers could expect so immense a sum to be confided to their disposal, without any knowledge on the part of parliament of any particular object they had in contemplation; or without any intimation whatever being given, as to the political views to which their advice to his majesty was to be directed? He was astonished how the noble secretary of state could imagine it possible that such a proceeding could be passed over in silence in that house. In their capacity of hereditary counsellors of the crown, it was impossible they could so far forget all the duties they owed to their sovereign, as to remain silent on so extraordinary an occasion. They could not, under such a circumstance, forbear to exercise that general superintendance over all the great concerns of the state, which was constitutionally vested in them; particularly with reference to an important crisis in the history of the country, induced by the improvident advice of those whom his majesty had called to his councils; of those who had hitherto given no probable ground of hope that the affairs of the country would be brought to a favourable or happy issue. He had to condemn the general system adopted by ministers with respect to communications to parliament on the state of political affairs: the advice of that great council of the nation should be frequently taken, and communications, containing true information respecting the state of public affairs, ought frequently to be made. If a line of conduct, founded upon that principle, had been pursued, they would not now have to lament that the country Was without a single ally upon the continent of Europe, and that ministers, with respect to forming a connexion with foreign powers, had been for more than six months perfectly inactive. If a different line of conduct from that adopted by his majesty's ministers, had been followed, they should not now have to fear the effects of the preponderating power and influence of France. They would see that foreign powers, instead of resisting our solicitations, and instead of keeping aloof, would court alliance and connexion with Great Britain, and even themselves propose to confederate with it, in order to secure a lasting peace to Europe, founded on the security and independence of every nation in it. But the steps taken of late years, on the part of this country, were such as tended to

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produce effects diametrically opposite; they had a tendency even to shake the confidence of foreign powers in the conduct of Great Britain, and certainly to overturn that wise and vigorous system of our ancestors with respect to their foreign policy. In discussing this important part of the subject, he called their lordships' attention to the late treaty of peace, in consequence of which this country was entirely left by itself, solely dependant on its own strength, and under continual apprehension of invasion by a continental enemy. That measure, and the correspondent line of conduct pursued by his majesty's ministers, reduced this country to the necessity of maintaining a large internal military force, and entailed a great additional burthen upon the people. It was impossible that We could long act Upon such a system; it was incompatible with the interests or security of a country whose prosperity so much depended upon its commerce and the freedom of its constitution—With respect to the occasion to which he had recently adverted (the treaty of Amiens), it was with Satisfaction he reflected that he had concurred with some other noble lords, in declaring at that time his convictions relative to that inauspicious measure, and of those consequences which must, of necessity, result from it; and their lordships could not but recollect, that when the definitive treaty was under consideration, the ministers were not only distinctly Warned of the consequences of the measure, but advised to adopt a specific line of conduct, by which that spirit of encroachment, which, even at that very time, was manifested by France, might be counteracted and those pledges retained, by which the enemy might be compelled, on their parts, to a due execution of the treaty. unfortunately for the country, ministers then thought proper to disregard those warnings, and preferred to act in such a way, as if the situation of Europe and the conduct of France, were not such as must not render it necessary again to recur to force. The measure to which he adverted, could not be called a treaty of peace; it was, in point of fact, a mere suspension of arms. The country was again plunged in war, and it was a duty imposed upon that house to enquire with respect to the system of conducting it; and to consider the probabilities under that system, of its being brought to a safe and favourable issue. In this view of the question, they would have to compare the present situation of the country with that in which it Stood at the commencement of the war. We
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were then masters of every sea in the world, the united naval force of Europe could not act with effect against us. We had a force sufficient, as was stated by ministers, amply sufficient for the defence of the country, and they even boasted, that they had collected in arms, a body of men, constituting a military force, superior to that of any country in the world; that its numbers, of all descriptions, exceeded eight hundred thousand men in arms. Let their lordships contrast that with the present state of the country, and it would be seen what a use ministers made of such extraordinary powers. With a naval force exceeding in number seven hundred ships, the enemy's marine not only received no blow, but they were able to continue, without interruption, all their preparations for the invasion of the country. In every respect were the enemy now superior to us, not only in a military, but in a naval point of view, and the country had reason this moment to tremble for the safety of its foreign possessions, particularly its western possessions; and the security of its trading ships not so much depended on the superiority of its marine as on the favourable effects of chance, and the apparent hope existed of a renewal of those continental connexions; on which the interests and security of Great Britain and Europe reciprocally depended. Their lordships had no information whether the negotiations with Russia, or with any other continental power, were with a view to hostile operations, nor even whether any proofs of a pacific disposition appeared on the part of the enemy; but merely that the sovereign did not think himself enabled to make a communication on the subject to the house. These serious and important considerations, he thought, called for explanation on the part of ministers. Their conduct in these instances, was widely different from that adopted by our ancestors; and, illustrating this, his lordship particularly referred to the communications made to parliament, at and subsequent to the period of forming the grand alliance against France in the reign of William III. Some of these, with the answers, particularly of the commons, were quoted by his lordship, who frequently advised the crown as to the preferable line of conduct to be pursued. The happy and beneficial effects of such a mode of proceeding was, he contended, sufficiently apparent. Let their lordships, on the present occasion, follow these great and patriotic examples of their ancestors. Let them shew, by every means in their power, by

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their language, and by their actions, their firm determination to give every support to his majesty, but in such a way as may be most conducive to the great ends they all had in view. Let them shew their determination to secure the full benefits of the invaluable constitution of the country. Let them remember, that the king of the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was placed in a different situation from that of other potentates in Europe. Let the general sense, spirit, and wishes of his people be expressed to him, by their constitutional organ, the parliament. On these principles, and under the convictions by which he was impressed, he would beg leave to suggest an amendment, the ultimate object of which, however, was, that of the proposed address; it would go to give his majesty the highest assurances of the fullest support of that house; that they would not merely concur in a vote for a limited sum, but assure him of their full and cordial assistance, in enabling his majesty to make the best advantage of any opportunity that might arise. He should therefore move to amend the motion for the address, by leaving out a part of it, as originally proposed, and inserting, instead thereof, a declaration of the house to the above effect; the concluding part of which included a request in purport, "that his majesty would be graciously pleased not to prorogue his parliament, until his majesty should be enabled to communicate more fully the state of his negotiations with foreign powers, &c."—On this the question being put;
Lord Mulgrave rose, and begged permission of the house to offer a few observations; he was not disposed to enter into a discussion of the far greater number of the considerations adverted to by the noble earl who proposed the amendment, as he was totally at a loss to conceive how most of the observations made by him could apply to the question before the house. So far from that question involving any thing tending to separate this country from its connexions with the continent, that principle was expressly recognised, and a disposition on the part of his majesty to uphold that system of connexion between the interests and prosperity of his dominions, with the security and independence of Europe, was expressed in terms. A great part of the noble earl's speech, however, turned on questions, respecting the application of the powers of the country, its means of defence and offence, and the al-
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leged unfitness of his majesty's present ministers to administer those means and powers, with honour to his majesty, or with safety and advantage to his dominions. And, on those questions, as arising out of the noble earl's speech, he begged leave to offer a few remarks.—First, with respect to the state of our military defence, the exertions of government, for the last sixteen months, were such as, he was confident, would give satisfaction to the house. Those, he was sure, never had been exceeded, under similar circumstances, in any country whatever. With in that period no less than 37,000 men had been added to the disposable force of the country. So that at this moment our disposable force was at least one hundred and nineteen thousand men. With respect to the provision made for the defence of our colonial possessions, no less than seventeen thousand men had been dispatched for their security. The relative naval force of this country, compared with that of the enemy, was every way superior. The number of ships actually in commission was no less than ninety-one sail of the line. These were actually in service. The total amount of the enemy's naval force, from the best information they could collect, did not exceed eighty-three ships of the line, including Dutch, Spanish, and French. In addition to our ships of the line, we had in service twelve fifty gun ships. Of that description of force, added to our ships of the line, we had a decided superiority, in point of number, of at least twenty ships. We had still a greater proportion of frigates. With this aggregate force, we had every where a clear and decided superiority; and, until very lately, the whole of the enemy's naval force was closely blocked up in their ports. On this point, their lordships would of course consider the impossibility of any government counting upon that which depended on no human foresight or power—their inability to anticipate or to prevent the changes and fluctuations of winds and weather, and on which these kind of naval operations absolutely depended. From the moment they heard of the escape of a part of the enemy's naval force from their ports, not an instant was lost in sending detachments in pursuit of them. Under such circumstance, it would be equally impossible for any government to obtain accurate information, as to the destination of squadrons which had so escaped. But he could fully assure their lordships, that under these circumstances, every possible precaution had been taken on the part

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of government to counteract and defeat the operations and efforts of the enemy. With respect to the state of the negotiations in question, he had to observe, that their actual state rendered it improper to make a communication to parliament upon them. In the amendment proposed by the noble earl, a request was made to his majesty that parliament should not be prorogued until such communications should be made to the house. With regard to this, he would ask on what ground such a requisition was made? Did such a practice obtain on former occasions? Did it take place at any period of the late extensive and eventful warfare? Certainly not. With respect to the particular object to which the address more immediately referred, it was the uniform practice in all the late wars, to come to a vote of credit similar to that now proposed, to enable government to take advantage of such contingent circumstances as might arise, during the recess of parliament. Under the existing circumstances, the sovereign had not been able to make a direct communication on the topics adverted to by parliament. He would submit to the house, whether it was either constitutional or consistent with the practice of parliament, to interfere with the progress of negotiations, the conduct of which was, by the constitution, exclusively in the crown. His majesty Would be advised by his confidential servants and ministers, when such a communication could properly be made; and he would therefore put it to the house, whether at the present moment, and under the existing circumstances, they would not put the same degree of confidence in ministers, which on similar occasions, they had formerly done?—After the noble secretary had concluded, a pause for two or three minutes took place, and no peer shewed a disposition to speak. At length,
Lord Hawkesbury rose and observed, that he felt it his duty, on the present occasion, to second, by every argument in his power, what had fallen from his noble colleague. Without entering into a minute detail of the objections of the noble earl, he could not allow certain of his allusions to pass without making some observations upon them. First, upon the expediency and advantage of continental connexions, upon which point so much had been said, no peer in that house, he believed, entertained the smallest difference of opinion. Ministers always found it the interest of the country, and always felt it their duty to attend to the relative state of the continent, and
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endeavoured to preserve that degree of connexion with foreign powers, which it was of the utmost importance to the interests of the country to keep up. That this principle was steadily kept in view, and duly asserted, he could refer to the discussions which took place on the late preliminary and definitive treaties of peace. But, he must observe, long before these treaties, that the fate of the continent had been decided—he alluded to the provisions of the treaty of Luneville. After that measure, with a view to our own particular interest, and even to the relative situations of the powers on the continent, it was thought more expedient to husband our resources, than to continue the struggle alone, in which, if this country had persisted, it would be necessary to have engaged single handed with the enemy, without first trying the experiment of peace. He would state distinctly, that the principles upon which the treaty of Amiens proceeded, were not only those which were best for the interests of this country, but for those of the continent of Europe. Ever since that period, he contended there was no opportunity lost whatever, of forming a beneficial connexion with foreign powers; but the circumstances under which, and the reasons why such endeavours did not succeed formed entirely distinct questions; but the object had been constantly pursued, and no ground existed for imputing blame in that respect to the conduct of his majesty's government.—The question now before their lordships might be resolved into a narrow compass. In the opinion of his majesty, considering the season of the year, and the state of the public, it was proper speedily to put an end to the session of parliament. In this view, the usual vote of credit was proposed, and which, in due course, would come before their lordships to be decided on. But it seemed the objections were made not so much for what the message did contain, as for what it did not contain. However, in point of fact, there was nothing in the address which at all militated against those principles which the noble lord so strongly asserted; nor did it go to pledge them to any more than what the house recognised, and by its vote repeatedly sanctioned. Indeed, both the message and the address grew actually out of the speech delivered by his majesty, on the first day of the present session, and from the corresponding address voted by the house—they were, therefore, not called upon to acqui-

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esce under any principles, but those they admitted on the first day of the session; in illustration of which, the noble secretary read a part of the address alluded to, and which particularly referred to the passing communications between his majesty and the emperor of Russia. The negociations which subsequently took place had not yet been brought to that point in which his majesty could make a regular parliamentary communication. Was there any thing in that consideration not arising out of the constitution of this country, or out of the practice of parliament? Did it imply blame to government, because the state of negociations was not laid before parliament before they had come to some result? He did not mean to deny there might exist some particular cases where it might be the duty of parliament to call for the state of negociations while pending. But, he believed, it was the generally understood practice of the house, more especially of late years, and generally admitted, that to communicate negociations while pending would be to frustrate their objects; to render them productive of no real benefit; and lastly, to exonerate ministers from that responsibility which otherwise they would bear. The question before the house was by no means one of principle, it was solely a question of discretion: under a principle generally admitted, they might surely decide upon that which might be fitting the interests of the country, without waiting for the issue of negociations; more especially on a question not involving any principle, but merely its application. Under all the circumstances of the case, he could see no solid reason whatever for adopting the amendment. The address, as his noble friend had well stated, pledged the house to nothing, but what they all concurred in, namely, to support his majesty; and even that did not pledge them in one point beyond their address on the first day of the session. He saw no good ground for voting for the amendment; therefore he should resist its adoption.
The Earl of Carlisle said, the amendment proposed by his noble friend was of so simple a nature, that he thought there could be no hesitation in agreeing to it, as it merely proposed to ask his majesty to suffer parliament to continue sitting for some time longer, in order that they might have the information constitutionally given to them of the result of the negociations with the continental powers. This was, he con-
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ceived, in many views of the subject, to be considered as the right mode of acting. It could not be supposed for a moment that he could be so absurd as to require information relative to the negociation whilst it was depending; all he wished was, that instead of being prorogued, parliament might be allowed to adjourn, in order that a communication of the result of the negociation now depending, might be made to it as soon as possible after such information had been received. It was well known to what purposes information upon similar subjects might be turned in this country, and it was therefore highly desirable, in that point of view, that the information upon this subject, when received, should be communicated to parliament and the public with all possible dispatch. The state of Ireland also was another material consideration, although, thank God, nothing serious had followed the agitation of the catholic claims. If the amendment of his noble friend was agreed to, there would then also be no necessity for the bill which the noble secretary of state had signified his intention to bring in, and which, perhaps, might not pass the house of commons, for continuing the effect of the proceedings relative to Mr. Justice Fox to the next session, as they might then be continued by adjournment, without the necessity of any bill of that nature. The amendment proposed by his noble friend might be a novel measure; but it was called for by the novelty of our situation. He did not mean to impute any blame to ministers, on account of the sailing of the enemy's fleets, but it was unfortunate, and still more so, that we should have no intelligence of their course, and that his majesty's ministers should be entirely ignorant of their destination. He had heard, however, rumours upon this subject, which he hoped the noble lord whom he now saw for the first time in his place, (lord Barham) would contradict. He had heard it rumoured that Vessels had been given what was considered, as the best cruizing ground, without reference to their stations, when they ought to have been employed in watching the enemy. He hoped, however, that this rumour would be contradicted by the noble lord to whom he had alluded, and declared to be, as very probably it was, entirely destitute of foundation. With respect, however, to what had been stated by the noble lord as to the number of our ships of the line, he believed it would be found that only three additional ships of the line

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were put into commission during the last year. With respect to the army, he admitted that the drafts from the militia had been of use, but with the exception of this measure, what had been done to augment our army, or increase our disposable force? There was still another reason for agreeing to the amendment of his noble friend, and that was the dissentions which were known to exist in his majesty's cabinet. Instead of being employed in considering how the country was to be extricated from its difficulties, almost the whole time of ministers was known to be taken up in endeavouring to reconcile disputes which were continually taking place. These things were notorious, every person in the street talked of them, he could not meet a person in the street that he new, but he was asked who's in, and who's out?—he could only answer I don't know, but the Rochfort squadron have been out, have done great mischief to our West-India possessions, and have returned home unmolested; the Toulon squadron is out, and gone God knows where, or what mischief it may do. For these reasons he should vote for the amendment of his noble friend.
Earl Camden said, he conceived this to be a mere usual proceeding with respect to a Vote of credit, nor could he discover any reason for the amendment moved by the noble lord. The two points which had been chiefly insisted upon by the noble lord who moved the amendment, and by the noble lord who had just sat down, related to the army and the navy. With regard to the former he could confirm the statements of his noble friend that since the 5th January 1804, 37,000 men had been added to our disposable force, and that 17,000 men had been sent to defend our foreign possessions. Added to this, our whole effective regular force amounted to 174,899 men, which was 3,000 more than the greatest army we had during the last war; and of these but a small part were limited in their service. With respect to the navy his noble friend was in an error, as instead of 93 there were now 98 ships of the line in actual service, besides twelve 50-gun ships, whilst last year there were only 81. Since last June 170 vessels of different descriptions had been put into commission, whilst 72 had been lost, taken, or broken up as unfit for service, leaving a balance therefore of near one hundred vessels added to the navy of Great-Britain. He gave these details instead of the noble lord who had been called upon
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by the noble earl who had just sat down, the former having been so short a time in the house. These facts, however, spoke for themselves, as to the exertions of his majesty's ministers; nor could he omit paying a just tribute of applause to the indefatigable exertions of the noble viscount (Melville) who lately quitted the Admiralty, and who had been unceasingly employed during his continuance in office in endeavouring to place the navy upon that footing which the exigencies of the country required. His exertions had been followed up by those of the noble lord now at the head of the Admiralty, whose endeavours were unremittingly directed to the same end. Having made these statements, in answer to the assertion made by noble lords on the other side, he should conclude by expressing his determination to vote against the amendment.
Earl Darnley said, he could not agree in the conclusions drawn by the noble lord from his statements, nor in his determination to vote against the amendment. As to the army, after deducting the draughts from the militia, nothing had been done to increase our disposable force, except by means of the additional force act, the only measure of the present administration, calculated for that purpose, and which, when he last addressed their lordships upon the subject, had produced only 300 men. With respect to the number of vessels mentioned by the noble lord to have been added to the navy, he had endeavoured to prove to their lordships upon a former occasion, and he was still of opinion, that many of those which had been purchased were unfit for the purposes of the public service. When, however, he saw the fleets of the enemy sailing in every direction, and ministers unable even to give a guess as to their destination, he thought it impossible that there could be the least hesitation in agreeing to the amendment proposed by the noble lord. The reason also mentioned by the noble lord (Carlisle) as to the disputes and dissensions notoriously known to exist in the cabinet, was with him also a cogent reason for agreeing to the amendment.
The Earl of Westmoreland said, he had listened attentively to noble lords on the other side, but he had been unable to discover any reason whatever for the new and extraordinary measure which was now proposed, namely, to interfere with the king's prerogative, by praying his majesty not to prorogue his parliament—and until when did

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noble lords wish that the session should be be continued? Was it to be continued until they should be pleased to address his majesty to put an end to it, or did they mean that the parliament should continue permanently sitting? Certainly no substantial reason had been alleged for so novel and extraordinary a measure; neither had the measure itself which was proposed, been stated in any intelligible shape. Noble lords had blamed ministers for suffering the enemy's fleets to escape, and upon this subject he expected that a noble friend of his in the blue ribband (earl Spencer) would rise to defend himself. During the period that that noble lord was at the head of the admiralty the Brest fleet came out of port and got to Ireland, without molestation; the Toulon fleet got safe to Egypt, an expedition which gave occasion to the glorious victory gained on that coast; so at this period the enemy's fleets had escaped, but as no blame was imputable to that noble lord when at the head of the admiralty on account of the escape of the enemy's fleets, so no blame was imputable now. Bad weather, false intelligence, and a variety of accidents might contribute to drive off our squadrons, or lead them upon a false chase and permit the escape of the enemy; but the moment that the escape of their fleets was known, squadrons were immediately dispatched after them. It was true the Rochfort squadron had escaped, had gone to the West-Indies, and come back again without molestation; but the circumstances attendant upon this expedition proved the exertions and the care of the ministers for the defence of our foreign possessions. That that squadron could make no impression upon any one of our islands was to be attributed to the excellent state of defence in which ministers had taken care they should be placed. No blame could be imputable to ministers for what was in its nature unavoidable, and which arose from circumstances that could not be controlled. No case whatever had, in his opinion, been made out which could warrant so extraordinary a measure as that now proposed, and, therefore, he should oppose the amendment.
Earl Spencer said, he was in entire ignorance with regard to the objects for which so large a vote of credit was wanted, as that which he was authorised to say would be proposed, namely, 5,000,000l.; but it was that very ignorance which induced him to oppose the motion for giving a pledge such as that demanded by the noble secretary of
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state, as he could not place confidence in those ministers by whom it was asked. He declared he had not confidence enough in his majesty's ministers to entrust them with the disposal of this money. The very circumstance of the enemy's fleets having been suffered to sail from their ports, without their destination being known was a sufficient ground why no confidence should be placed in them. On the subject of the navy he must say he did not know where blame lay, and, therefore, he did not impute blame on that account to any individual. With regard to the military force, the country expected a great deal more to have been done in that department than was done. Upon the whole, it was impossible not to feel a strong suspicion that there was no union of sentiment among the members of his majesty's government; and therefore they were for that reason undeserving of confidence. On the ground, therefore, that parliament was in a situation it had never been in before, and that a sum so large as this had never been left to the discretionary disposal of ministers, he would support the amendment of the noble lord, which required nothing more than that the king should not prorogue the parliament, as long as the government stood in need of the advice and assistance of the members of that house, who were the hereditary counsellors of the crown.
Lord Harrowby maintained, that the vote proposed was not a novel measure, as had been asserted. In 1799, a subsidy of 800,000l. had been voted to Russia for 45,000 men, who were not at the time agreed for, but only meant as an offer to be made for such an object. There was nothing extraordinary, therefore, in asking the house to enable his majesty to conclude such engagements in the course of the negotiation as should appear necessary; and let the government be what it might, would the house, by with-holding its confidence from that government, and the means of fulfilling its engagements, thus diminish the weight of the country in the estimation of those nations which it was our object to combine with us either in carrying on the war, or in bringing about a secure and permanent peace?
The Earl of Suffolk supported the amendment, and, in answer to some observations from the earl of Westmoreland, on the proneness of opposition constantly to condemn the measures of administration, without proposing any of their own, observed, be

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would not tell the noble lord in the blue ribband what he and his friends would do, but what they would not do. They would not, with such a numerous fleet as ministers boasted, suffer the Rochfort squadron to proceed to the West-Indies, and then to ravage our islands, for six whole weeks, unmolested, and afterwards to return to their own ports in safety. They would not suffer the combined fleets of France, Spain, and Holland, to proceed to sea, upon a distant and unknown destination, without being able to find out that destination. They would not, at a moment when the country was menaced with danger on all hands, refuse a measure of conciliation to the people of Ireland, which would unite the strength and affections of that country for the defence of these islands. They would not suffer the credit and character of this country to sink so low in the estimation of continental nations, as not be able, in a negotiation of six months, to procure a single ally on the continent.
The Earl of Carnarvon said, if the proposition now before the house for allowing so large a sum to government, had any shape at all, it was that of its being a subsidy But nobody knew whether it was a subsidy for peace or for war; for, notwithstanding the professions made from the throne, of intended alliances on the continent, there was not as yet any appearance of a disposition on the part of the powers on the continent to join us in the war. A space of six months had elapsed since that communication, and the public were still in complete ignorance on the subject. The present question was without an example. The house did not know for what purpose ministers wanted the money; whether it was to patch up another miserable peace of Amiens, or to carry on the war. He would now ask the house, whether the public purse was to be given up to men who had misapplied it before? To do so, would be a total breach of trust on the part of the house, which could not be justified in reposing such confidence. He had no opinion whatever of the present administration, as they were now formed, and the house would betray its trust by placing any confidence in them.
Lord Sidmouth, said, that the view in which he held the subject differed so materially from the opinion expressed by the noble lord who spoke last, and many of those noble lords who supported the amendment, that he must entreat the indulgence of the house, in expressing his opinion, and the
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reasons upon which he should resist the amendment. The noble lord who had just sat down said, that this address would be a vote of credit; in this description he could not agree: a vote of credit, as far as his parliamentary experience could inform him, was a vote usually passed by the house of commons at the conclusion of each session of parliament, to enable his majesty to raise a sum for the service of the year, over and above the sums already voted on estimates, in case of any unforeseen exigency that might occur. The measure now proposed was not of this description. It was not a vote to raise money for the exigencies of the year on credit, but a motion to empower his majesty to apply a sum already voted in the last year. He had observed, from the votes of the house of commons, to which he believed it was not unparliamentary to refer, that a large sum had been provided by that house upon the estimates of the last year, over and above the actual exigencies of the year, and for the liberty of appropriating which to the probable or eventual, exigencies of the present year, the original motion was directed, but which he would admit the house was not bound to allow, unless they thought proper; but if this was not a vote of credit properly so called, it was a proof of the anxiety of his majesty's ministers to solicit the assent of the house for the leave of application in a way which they conceived most respectful to parliament. It was to vest the money at the disposal of his majesty for the exigencies that might become eventually necessary for the service of the year; the manner was not, perhaps, formally recognised. It was not, however, unusual or inconsistent with parliamentary usage, to pass votes of credit, without any communication as to those objects which were expressly stated to be casual and unforeseen in the estimates for the general service of the year. But government not being enabled to make any specific or definitive communication on the subject of the pending negotiations; and his majesty's ministers not foreseeing any immediate likelihood of making such a Communication, before the usual time when parliament was prorogued; it was deemed right to make the application for leave to apply this sum, without waiting for an uncertain conclusion to the negotiations, or keeping the houses of parliament sitting beyond the usual time, under an uncertainty. There was, however, another mode of proceeding to which he did not wish to allude, but to which his majesty's ministers might resort;

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namely, to move a committee of supply in the other house of parliament, to refer to that committee his majesty's speech and recent message, and to move that the sum in question be applied by his majesty to the necessary exigencies of the public service in the current year. But the present mode was adopted as more respectful to the dignity of parliament—The noble lord proceeded to answer several of the arguments urged against his majesty's ministers, in the course of the debate. He did not mean to go into a discussion of the arguments objected to the motion of the noble lord, (lord Mulgrave). The noble lord who opened this debate, had said, that the negotiation should be carried on with a large and extended view to continental connexion; and the noble lord had made strong allusions to the subject of the late peace of Amiens, and had said that his majesty's ministers in concluding that peace had betrayed their continental connexions, and totally forfeited their confidence. The subject of that peace had been so amply discussed already, that he felt it unnecessary to go into the subject now, no farther than to declare, that nothing could be farther from the mind of his majesty's ministers, who concluded that peace, than to betray or undervalue their continental connexions. They advised his majesty to that peace, with a hope that it would afford an opportunity for restoring a secure and permanent peace to Europe, but with a persuasion at the time, that if the ambitious views of France should lead to a revival of
the war, we should be enabled, with renewed energies, to recommence hostilities with vigour; and that the continental powers, by an interval of peace, might be enabled to recruit their vigour, and be prepared to cooperate with us, should war become inevitable, and opportunity prove favourable. It the peace had not then been agreed to, we should not now have the important advantage we possessed in the unanimous voice of the people of England in support of that war which they now saw was inevitable, with every disposition and endeavour, on the par of his majesty's government, to avoid it. So that this disposition, to which we were in debted for our security against the menaced attacks of an implacable enemy upon our shores, has proceeded from this reprobated treaty of peace. This was not the only advantage; for besides the physical strength and universal opinion of the country roused in favour of the war, in the short space of 25 Months our revenues had increased to double
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the amount of the interest on the public debt beside Such an increase of our public force by sea and land, as never had been equalled at any period of our history, and this within two years of the commencement of the war. The noble lord strongly professed that a friendly intercourse and connexion with continental powers had always formed a leading object of his administration. He contended, with respect to the present motion, that no occasion whatever existed to impede the prorogation of parliament at the usual time, as his majesty was empowered by law to call it together in fourteen days, should occasion require; and concluded by supporting the original motion.
Lord Holland supported the amendment; and went into a wide field of attack upon the peace of Amiens, and the ministers, who by concluding it and abandoning continental connexions, had so much excited the disgust and hatred of those powers, and precluded themselves from all confidence, that in six months, with all the exertions of diplomatic intrigue, they were not yet able to negotiate an alliance of friendly intercourse with a single power. The answer of Russia to our communication of the late pacific overtures of France proved that power disposed to peace for itself, and mediation for that of Europe, and, therefore, decidedly averse to the views of his majesty's ministers, who shewed themselves, and not the ruler of France, hostile to the peace of mankind—that a bloody warfare was their object, which disgusted and deterred from the connexion and alliance those continental powers, in whom their conduct had begotten a lassitude for war, and an earnest desire for the maintenance of peace. To such ministers he could give no confidence, and, therefore, he would,not place at their disposal the enormous sum of five millions, for objects totally unexplained, and undefined. He thought it absolutely necessary for the parliament to continue at its post, and endeavour to extricate the country from the dangers that surrounded her; a task which ministers were unequal to. When the present administration was formed, he heard of great changes and improvements about to be adopted; but nothing was done except giving the country two "giants refreshed" instead of one. But no one act had been done for the benefit of th country; nothing that could rescue us from our present dreadful situation.
Lord Grenville expressed himself,by no means surprised that noble lords on the other

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side had failed to give any thing like a Satisfactory answer to arguments Which had been adduced in favour of the amendment. They seemed to be conscious that no answer could be given. What, indeed, was the ,object of the motion of the noble lord opposite? That parliament should shut its eyes and ears to the conduct of ministers; should address his majesty to dismiss them from any farther attendance at present on their duty; and thus that five millions of the public money should be left at the disposal of ministers to expend in any manner which they might choose, without regard to the essential interests of the country. A noble lord had asked if the subject had been communicated by his majesty now for the first time, would he have been for opposing the address? If by this it were meant to be asked, if he would decline coming to the conclusion of at taking the five Millions of money out of the hands Of the house, and putting it into the hands of ministers, he had no hesitation in saving, that he certainly would decline coming to any such conclusion. If, on the other hand, the subject were now for the first time started, he must say, that he should he happy to afford every facility for entering into such negotiations as might be calculated to lead to a peace consistent with the safety of this country and the general interests of Europe. Great sacrifices, he was of opinion, should be made to procure the Co-operation of continental powers, particularly of Russia. Till he once knew, however, the nature of the communications which had been going forward, and was in some degree made acquainted with the advantages which they might be likely to produce, he did not feel himself at liberty to say that five millions was no more than a recompense for the part that the country was willing to take in the business. As an argument to shew that the amendment was not necessary, it had been observed, that although parliament might be prorogued, it could be assembled again in fourteen days. This he admitted. But did it follow that it actually would be so re-assembled? And was it not better for them to keep the hold which they at present had over this large sum, and not to give it out of their own hands? This was said to be but the usual confidence reposed in ministers, and it was insinuated, that it would be wrong to express any want of confidence. This he was surprised at hearing from the noble lord who advanced it. He had the happiness about a year ago to concur in opinion with-that noble
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lord, that nothing could be so necessary as for that house to express their opinion that no confidence could be placed in the then ministers. The result, he was happy to think, had been compliance on the part of the king with the opinion expressed by the house; and there had, at the same time been no symptom of despondency manifested among the people. No confidence was placed in that ministry, because they were not deserving of any. He declared he felt the same to be applicable to the present ministry; they were almost entirely composed of the makers of the peace of Amiens, in which were sown the seeds which gave rise to the present war; seeds sown in so fertile a soil as made it next to impossible that it should not yield the fruit it had produced. There never was a transaction in which so total a want of capacity, and of every qualification, was exhibited, as in the management of that treaty. They threw away the Cape, as if they had been eager to get quit of it; and could he place confidence in men guilty of so enormous a crime? But it was not in the instance of the Cape alone they had shewn their total incapacity; they framed a peace on such complicated terms as rendered the meaning of the different parts of it hardly intelligible? and having done so, they recommenced hostilities on such grounds as made the cause of this Country appear unjust in the eyes of almost every foreign power. If there was nothing else this would be to him sufficient ground nothing not entrusting such unheard-of confidence as that now required in the same hands. The noble lord then proceeded to examine the state of our army and navy; the former, he contended, had been only apparently encreased by a sort of hocus pocus transferring of the forces from one head to another. The latter, he said, could hardly have been diminished, and during the war we had not to boast of a single naval triumph. These surely did not conspire to give us additional confidence in our rulers. But there was another circumstance which had been alluded to, and had received no answer, which, independent of any other, was decisive on this point: was it of no consequence that, at so important a crisis, in which every thing essential to the safety of the country was involved, instead of having a ministry completely alive to the urgency of our situation, we should have a set of ministers completely united among themselves, and more anxious to discover and take advantage of the errors of their colleagues than to watch over the

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operation of the enemy? Yet in such men, without knowing whom in particular, or how long they might continue to act together, was the house called on to repose an extraordinary and unprecedented degree of confidence. His lordship declared, that he thought no time ought to be lost in announcing to the whole of Europe our determination to act on such principles as were calculated for the general safety, and best suited to that broad and liberal policy which would have for its basis the independence and security of the whole of Europe. If we could not procure continental powers on such terms to act with us as allies, our next object ought to be to propose to negotiate before them in open progress, taking them as the umpires of our difference. When satisfied that we were sincere in such a system, we might soon depend on having peace on fair and equitable terms, or a vigorous co-operation in carrying on the war. If there could be any reason for supposing an unwillingness in the powers of the continent to trust in our sincerity, we must look back to the treaty of Amines for the causes which gave rise to that suspicion. We must look to the persons at the head of our counsels, as being the great authors and causes of that distrust. To give effect to such a declaration, it ought to be the work of parliament, not of any private proposition, originating with the servants of the crown. These, he thought, were reasons any one of them more than sufficient to shew the necessity of the amendment.
The Lord Chancellor defended the peace of Amines, as the foundation of all that patriotic zeal by which the country was now so effectually defended. He asked, if there was more wisdom shewn in the negociations at Lisle than at Amines? At the time this treaty was made, we had no allies on the continent; we had lost them all during that very administration of which the noble lord who spoke last formed a part. With what justice, then, could that noble lord charge the late administration with having made a treaty by which we lost all continental connexions? the noble lord all gone into an hotch-potch debate upon every topic almost that had been discussed in that house for years past. Instead of so detached, desultory, and irrelevant a mode of proceeding, he wished to have a night set apart for discussing those measures which he had defended before, and would manfully defend again. He thought it very unreasonable to call for the revealment of the whole of the
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secrets of government pending a negotiation, and not less extraordinary that a whole administration should be censured because the conduct of a part of it had been disapproved: As to the question now before the house, he maintained that government required no greater degree of confidence than had usually been given, and that there was no necessity whatever for continuing the session of parliament beyond the usual period.
The Earl of Carliste explained, that the whole secrets of government were by no means called for: all that was wanted being the necessary information to enable the house to judge of the propriety of the present measures of ministers.
Lord Grenville also explained. He did not mean to convey a censure upon the whole of the members of administration; but such of them as had concluded the disadvantageous treaty of Amiens. With respect to the right hon. gent. at the head of administration, he still retained, and he had no doubt always should, the high sentiments he had formerly expressed of his talents and character.
His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales said, that he had delayed rising till that late hour, in expectation of the arrival of a noble relative of his, who had been prevented horn attending the house by particular circumstances. He rose merely for the purpose of stating, that that noble person had intended to deliver his sentiments on the subject now before the house, in favour of the amendment, and in complete unison with the sentiments so ably delivered by his noble friend (lord Grenville). He had no hesitation also in stating, that those sentiments were entirely similar to what his royal highness hint-self entertained.
The question was then put, when the house divided on the motion for the address,

Contents, present

67

Proxies

44

111

Non contents, present

36

Proxies

22

58

Majority

53

Adjourned at two o'clock on Thursday morning.