Lords Sitting of 1 July 1805

Minutes.
The bills upon the table were forwarded in their respective stages. Among these, the Irish Loyalists Commissioner's, the Irish Assessed Taxes bill, and the bill for continuing the Proceedings of the house of lords in the case of Mr. Justice Fox in the next session of parliament, were severally read a third time and passed.— The Exchequer Bills bill, the Forgery Laws Extension, the Warehousing, the Smuggling Prevention, the Cochineal bill, the Isle of Man Smuggling bill, and several private bills, were brought from the Commons, and respectively read a first time.— The earl of Suffolk, in allusion to a bill which he conceived was before the house, which he understood appropriated large salaries to Prize Agents, and allowed great emoluments to certain other persons, observed, that in many instances, the naval forces were treated with great partiality, with respect to captures, to the pe-

703
judice of the land forces; he particularized some cases, where he conceived the army were fully as well entitled to its share of the proceeds of the captures, as the navy, and yet the whole was claimed by the latter, viz. at Toulon, and at the Cape of Good Hope; the latter place could not have been taken, were it not for the co-operation of the land forces. A stronger instance obtained, in the case of a detachment he had himself commanded while serving in America: the whole of what was taken on that occasion was captured by that force; and yet, because it could not be so well conveyed to the place of its ulterior destination by land, as by sea, the property was claimed by the navy. The noble earl made no motion on the subject.— The Woollen Manufacturers bill was read a third time, and passed. Lord Holland took the opportunity briefly to express his disapprobation of the principle of the bill; and his satisfaction at understanding it was intended the general subject should be taken up early in the next session of parliament.—Lord Holland presented a petition from certain inhabitants of the island of Guernsey, whose names were thereunto subscribed, against the Smuggling Prevention bill, praying to be heard by their counsel against the same. His lordship observed, he should take an opportunity to move that the petititioners to be heard by counsel in a subsequent stage of the bill. The petition was ordered to lie on the table.

Stipendiary Curates Bill.
The order for the third reading of this bill being read,
The Earl of Suffolk, not having sufficiently perused the bill, since it was so materially amended in the committees, wished their lordships would agree to postpone the third reading for a day at least. Should that not be the sense of the house, he should shortly perhaps trouble them with a few observation. On the question being put,
Lord Holland, however he admitted the benevolent and desirable object of the bill, yet, in some points of view highly disapproved of the principle: it was an improper legislative interference in the private concerns and contracts between man and man; for such he esteemed those between the curate and the incumbent to be. He disapproved of a positive fixing of the maximum and minimum, and still more of that principle, which went to proportion the salary of curates, not in a ratio to the extent or nature of the service performed, but according to the wealth and property of the incumbent. He admitted that the provisions of the bill,
704
since its introduction into that house, had been considerably ameliorated.
Lord Harrowby widely differed from the noble baron in some of the positions he had laid down, particularly the idea that the stipend of the curate should be what the incumbents might please to agree for or allow him; it were possible an officiating minister could be got for a penny a day; but such would be an insufferable degradation of the clerical character, to uphold which was partly the object of the bill; neither could he think it would have an injurious effect with respect to contracts already made between the parties alluded to, and he thought the discretionary powers vested by the bill could not be better placed than in the hands of reverend prelates.
Lords Holland and Harrowby severally explained. In the course of which, the former peer expressed his opinion, that the incumbents, in many instances, were as well worthy the benevolent interposition of the legislature as the curates possibly could be.
The Bishop of St. Asapb delivered his sentiments at some length. He thought that some noble lords opposed the principle of the bill, while others defended it on equally erroneous grounds. A mistaken idea should not go forth in the country that the bill would greatly ameliorate the condition of the poorer clergy, nor that it would obliterate all appearances of poverty among the ministers of religion. That it would not do; though, as amended, it would be productive of some good in obviating the scandalous consideration, that many parishes were not adequately supplied with officiating ministers. He agreed with the noble baron opposite in many of his positions; and, after explaining the powers vested by the bill in the bishops, demonstrating the necessity of making an addition to the stipends, and fully allowing that the situation of many incumbents called for the interposition of the legislature towards their relief, he observed, that, upon the whole, the bill was brought to that shape that he should say, "content," to it.
The Duke of Norfolk fully concurred in the idea of his noble friend (lord Holland), that the situation of numerous incumbents was such as loudly to call for the interference of parliament. Measures of the kind, more properly, should originate with the rev. bench; and any measure they should propose on that head, should have his warmest support. He lamented that the present bill was brought forward so late, as to preclude an opportunity of fully and adequately discussing it.
The Bishop of London spoke in explanation,

705
as to the latter point. No blame on the score of neglect or inattention was fairly imputable in the case of the present bill; and he observed, that a bill even of more importance than the Residence act, did not pass until the 7th of June.
The Earl of Suffolk apprehended, that for want of a sufficient degree of publicity in the contracts, the full benefit of the present bill could not be obtained. He contended for the necessity of a measure of the kind. In the county of Lincoln, he understood, there were twenty parishes, the duty of which was, in general, performed by three curates.— After some explanation between some of the above peers, the bill was read a third time. On the question for its passing;
Lord Harrowby, in reference to what had been thrown out with respect to the situation of various incumbents, expressed his concurrence in what fell from noble lords on that head; he hoped the subject would be taken up in the next session; and added, that a great deal of valuable information on the subject would be obtained through the provisions of a bill lately acceded to by their lordships.— The bill was then passed, and a message sent to acquaint the commons therewith.— Adjourned.