HL Deb 04 April 1805 vol 4 cc192-205

The order of the day for the second reading of the Militia Enlisting Bill being read,

Lord Hawkesbury

rose, and stated, that after the thorough and repeated discussions the subject had hitherto undergone, it would not be necessary for him to take up much of their lordships' time, or to enter into any general considerations of the subject. He would first observe, that when the immense number of men who were in arms in this country was considered, their lordships would soon be aware that no military force whatever could be more respectable than that of the united kingdom. The only difference of opinion which could arise, was as to the arrangement and composition of this force, and the most effectual means of increasing the disposable force of the country. There was a general admission that this description of our military force should, under the present circumstances, form a much larger proportion, particularly with respect to infantry, of the whole, than it did at present. The object of the bill now before their lordships was to effect that; and the principal question which could arise, was as to the means adopted. The mode proposed by the bill, was to allow a certain proportion of the militia forces to volunteer into the regular forces, and into the royal marines. It should be considered, that the present militia establishment was calculated without a reference to a volunteer force, at the immense amount at which it stood at present. The principle of reducing the militia had been more than once recognised by parliament, especially by the act of last session, and the question that remained, therefore, was, whether, under all the circumstances of the country, it would not greatly conduce to the public benefit, to permit men to volunteer from the militia into the regulars, under the restrictions proposed by the bill, so as to increase our disposable force to the desired amount. He was a real friend to the militia system, but, he must contend, that on true militia principles, the present number and proportion of that force were too great to be kept up. The present state of the militia, with respect to its officers, was also a matter of serious consideration, and in these a great deficiency, to an aggregate, he believed, of between 400 and 500, particularly of officers duly qualified, at present existed. The present volunteer system not a little contributed to affect the officering of the militia. This latter force, with a reference to the true militia principles, should not be suffered to exceed 40,000 men. That principle admitted, the mode of reduction was comparatively of little importance; the execution of the present measure was, in the first instance, confided to militia officers themselves, who, he trusted, would feel the great public importance of the duty entrusted to them. A measure similar to the present was adopted in the course of the last war, but destitute of the advantageous provisions of the present bill The great importance of its object being generally admitted, he trusted its details would, on discussion, in the regular opportunity, be found equally unobjectionable. Any farther commentary on the merits of the measure he should leave to other noble lords more conversant than himself in the particular subject. He should now content himself with moving their lordships to give a second reading to the bill.

The Marquis of Buckingham

said, he could not give a silent vote upon the occasion. He denied that any similitude existed between the present bill and that alluded to, as enacted during the late war; there was then an imperious duty upon them so to enact, and the circumstances of the country were widely different as to its defensive situation and the naval power of the enemy; the present measure would, he contended, prove inefficacious, and it was odious and disgusting to the militia officers in general; and all the military measures of the present ministers were injurious to the militia system. In the former instance, the militia were in number too great and unwieldy to be conducted on true militia principles, and the preamble of the bill he alluded to, declared that a great defensive force was no longer necessary in the country. There existed at that time also a legal necessity for diminishing the militia. In all these particulars the country was at present in the reverse, or in a very different state, and ministers themselves must feel, that the defensive force of the country could not be safely diminished. The measure, taking it in every point of view, had his decided disapprobation.

The Earl of Derby

followed on the same side, and supported the arguments of the noble marquis. He censured the measure in question as unjust in its principle, and unlikely to produce the desired effect. It was a miserable expedient to think of robbing one branch of the military force to supply another. Some of the provisions of the bill would tend to defeat its object; and it was idle, he conceived, to think of procuring 17,000 men by it. In illustrating this-position, the noble earl entered into some detailed considerations of the measure What must Bonaparte think, on seeing us driven to such a shift to procure a disposable force to that amount?. He deprecated the rejection of his right honourable friend's idea in another place, of not enlisting the men for life. Adverting to the general Conduct of ministers, he glanced at the recent successes of the enemy in the West Indies He imagined that 40,000. men, as the extent of the militia, was as many as could be kept up on true militia principles, and he considered what fell from the noble secretary as a sort of pledge, that such a number of militia forces were to be. kept up. There were a zeal and spirit in the country, if properly directed, adequate to all its exigencies"; and an abundant disposable force was to be obtained, were proper means resorted to. It was impossible not to perceive that the militia officers in general were disgusted with the present measure. A great deal of the military difficulties, which the country at present laboured under, particularly in regard to inlisting men, was to be attributed to the conduct of the late minister, now a member of that house. After the treaty at Amiens, had a different line of conduct been adopted with respect to the Militia, its numbers might easily and cheaply have been completed, and kept up, by means of the numerous discharges from the other branches of the national force. With the noble marquis, he generally and strongly disapproved of the present measure, and censured the policy as weak and dangerous, which, in the present circumstances of this country, went to diminish her defensive force.

The Earl of Buckinghamshire

said, the late administration had found it .expedient to increase the militia to the amount at which it now stood, and had not the act of last session, for gradually reducing the militia, been passed, he should not have consented to the present measure; that act, however, having passed the only early question was, whether the militia should be reduced; without the country having the benefit of 17,000 men being added to its disposable force or not. Under these circumstances, he did not hesitate to give his warmest and most cordial support to the present bill, With respect to the statement of the noble earl, that a French force was now riding triumphant in the West Indies, he had every reason to believe that a British force was now there which would effectually prevent the former from riding triumphant in the West Indies, and he could add to this, that every precaution had been taken by sending additional troops to guard our possessions in that quarter of the world. He paid some warm compliments. to the noble earl for his conduct as lord-lieutenant of a county, in which capacity, although administration had not the satisfaction of his support in that house, he did every thing possible to promote all those measures which they employed for the benefit of the public service.

Lord Borringdon

observed, that the vote of every noble lord ought to be directed by the answer which he could give to the three following questions. First, it might be asked, whether it was not extremely desirable, that a large body of well-trained soldiers should at this moment be added to our disposable force? If it were admitted that this was extremely desirable, then the next question came to be how this addition was to be obtained, and what mode could best answer the end in view? And in the third place, it was to be considered whether the inconveniencies attending the procuring of this disposable force were so great as to counterbalance all the advantages that could be derived from it? That it was necessary, at this moment, to have as large a disposable force as possible, few who were properly sensible of the condition of Europe could deny. It was the opinion of military men, that if one half of the force now expected to be raised had co-operated with the Austrian army at the battle of Marengo, the event of the day would have been extremely different from what it was. His lordship also adverted to the brave conduct of the militia in Egypt. The present was the best mode of procuring them that could be adopted, and the advantages, he was convinced, would far out-balance all the inconveniencies. He concluded, by expressing his hearty assent to the measure. but was afraid that it would not produce so great a number as was expected.

Lord Cawdor

thought that the right hon. gent. at the head of affairs little understood the matter, when he thought that he would be able to enlist a force, such as the present bill proposed, from the militia into the regular army for life, He would find that he would procure none but those whose dissolute lives might make it convenient or desirable for them to change their situations, or who, induced by the bounty, which would enable them to get drunk for a few weeks, might enlist with a view of afterwards deserting. He could not forget the shameful scenes which had occurred when a similar measure was formerly adopted. He recollected, though he took no merit to himself from the circumstance, that his regiment was in a higher state of discipline than most of the militia regiments then were. The consequence was that few of his men volunteered. He received a complaint on the subject from lord Melville, and he at the time stated to that noble lord the real cause of the supposed failure on the part of his regiment. Wishing to avoid the recurrence of a similar circumstance, he recollected too that he had applied to the noble earl opposite (Buckinghamshire), and although he declined giving him any assuranee in his official capacity, he gave him to understand, as a friend, in the most satisfactory terms, that no such measure should again be resorted to. He left it to those noble lords who formed part both of the late and present administration, to reconcile this in the best way they could.

The Earl of Westmoreland

said, that objections were made, both to the principle of the bill itself, and to the time when it was produced. The first objection was grounded on some supposition, that the measure was unconstitutional, It was true, that the term constitutional was applied with considerable latitude, according to the opinions noble lords entertained of public measures, By the statute 30 Geo II. the militia was to serve 3 years, and then was to be permitted to enter into the army, or to engage in any other occupation. What then could there be unconstitutional so directly opposed to the feelings of noble lords, as friends to the British monarchy, if, after a period of 2 years, they had the same privilege they would enjoy at the termination of 3 years? Much had been objected on the ground of parochial expence; but on a fair calculation, by this bill, little or no difference would be occasioned in that respect; what was thrown upon the parishes in the way of ballot, would be counterpoised by the relief given in respect to the families of 17,000 men who would no longer receive the same support. It had been said, that the officers of the militia almost universally were dissatisfied with this measure; and the decision at a meeting of 32 officers at the St. Alban's, had been conceived to be the general expression of the opinions of 500 officers, who composed that respectable body. This statement was wholly incorrect, no general conclusions could be drawn from such a circumstance; many officers had already expressed their concurrence, and it might be more prudent if some others, in particular situations, would not be hasty in proclaiming their disapprobation.

The Earl of Carnarvon

rose and spoke as follows: If every day did not convince me that public faith and public honesty were of little importance in the eyes of many statesmen, I should be indeed surprised at the proposition now under discussion, when the ministerial breath is scarce cold which held out to the country, before a consenting parliament who adopted the pledge, that this system, degrading to the militia, and of the highest injustice to those on whom it was an Unequal burthen, should never be again recurred to. We are, indeed, told that necessity, in the management of public affairs, has neither faith, nor honesty, nor law; that the necessity of the existing moment will justify every deviation from the soundest principles of the past. We have been told that though it might be fit and proper, at one time, that the defensive force of the country, in time form of a militia, should be augmented at the expence of the land occupier, it was equally fit and proper, at another time, that the Militia should be reduced, and converted from an appropriated to a disposable force, All this, I am ready to admit, may be in possibility, and in the abstract true, and justifiable by an imperious necessity; but parliament no doubt, expect the clearest proof of the peculiar necessity which is at this moment paramount to all other considerations, Necessity has been, however, truly called the tyrant's plea; and if parliament is, as it ought to be, a jealous parliament, watching with patriotic care over the rights and interests of the people,. it will distinguish between a necessity simply asserted, and that which is distinctly proved. We are told that this measure is no novelty: unfortunately it is not; nor is it a novelty, in the long and changeful history of parliament, delivered down to us stained with the variation of each soil, and on which motley and disfigured we have grafted the more subtle poison of our days, that parliament should, on the bare assertion of any of its members, without the slightest proof acknowledge necessities of state unknown to all the world be sides but though every species of neglect and injustice may have its precedent in the history of parliament, and in the practice of ministers, I shall think it my duty to suppose, that parliament does not therefore mean to sanction neglect or injustice, and that it will not act blindly or without proof and conviction of the absolute necessity. The noble lord who spoke last seems to think that the proof of necessity is his assertion of it; he also concludes that the present bill is entirely consouant to the principles of the militia, because the militia, in its original formation, was only for a limited, period, and contained a clause by which a rotation of officers and men were secured to the county: but nothing can be more clear than the difference between an establishment, in which the officers and men of a county had a rotation of service that gradually made the whole county fit for its defence, and a premature destruction of that defensive force, raised at the expence of the land occupiers, which is effected by this bill. The noble lord who spoke last does not, indeed, rely much upon the arguments he has used, (and in that I am not surprised), but he has endeavoured to augment their efficacy, by threats. The noble load is a cabinet minister, filling a high office and a confidential situation; he assumed tones and gestures which rendered the intelligible to those who could scarce conceive its absurdity; he reminded those hold the offices of county lieutenants, and command county regiments, that great persons have lost such offices for offensive opinions which they held; he hinted that the subject was delicate but, he advised deliberation and caution to those who held these opinions, before they ventured to urge them. This threat, indecent in itself and disrespectful to the house, as disgraceful to him who uttered it as offensive to those to whom it was addressed, can have no other effect than to raise the contempt of the last; and to convince all those who heard him that the noble lord himself is capable of conforming his opinion to the pleasure of those from whom he holds his office; that he is capable of submitting to such disgraceful control I have a right to say, for he himself has told us so by uttering the threat and supposing its successful operation, [Here lord Westmoreland rose and said that he meant no threat, but a friendly caution.] Lord Carnarvon continued:— The noble lord has not by his explanation (I had nearly said letter) made his case much better, The popularity of a constitutional militia for home defence not exceeding 32,000 men, in 1757, induced the land owners to petition for such force, and to charge themselves with the expence of the levy. The offered establishment was accepted, but it never found favour in the eyes of ministers, commanders in chief and generals; they harassed the land occupiers by the burthen of its augmentation, and the officers by its reduction and conversion of the regiments, which they had formed for the internal defence of the country, into a drill for foreign service The military system of this country has been in a constant state of fluctuation for many years, but more particularly since the late war. This is the only country in Europe that has not a regular, fixed and well-known rule by which to arm themselves for offence and defence in time of war. We have wavered between war militias; volunteers of shopkeepers, who cannot quit their shops; armies for limited service, to be afterwards tempted to volunteer into unlimited service; new fangled, antiquated, and unpracticable prerogatives, dragged out of the charnel house of rotten and decayed usurpation, to bolster up a modern system of unconstitutional defence, more odious and alarming than the invasion which it was intended to meet. The constitutional principle of a regular army, with the consent of an existing parliament, so jealously asserted and preserved at the revolution in the declaration of rights, and re-echoed annually in. the preamble of the mutiny act, has been trampled under foot by an incomprehensible act, known by the name of the parish act, which, without raising the men for present use, (in which it has failed), has inflicted a fatal wound on the constitution by enabling the king, without the future consent of parliament, to raise 57,880 men, or 201. per man to raise them by. At the hopeless treaty of Amiens, called by its negotiators and panegyrists an experimental peace, and by Spain, in its late negotiations, a continuation of the war; at this peace, which according to all opinions, gave no hopes of its continuation, or removed the fear of war to a great distance, and of a vigorous, not a languid war, which is a contradiction in terms, after the full experience of the preceding war in which every trick had been practised upon, and every shape given to the militia; the practice of recruiting the army from the militia was, on the fullest investigation, considered as an error, and solemnly renounced by govt. before an assenting parliament; and they considered it as essential to the defence of the country and to the. vigorous disposition of the regular force, that the war establishment of the militia should be unalienably increased 20,000 men. On these assurances of govt. and pledges from parliament, the land occupier acquiesced without a murmur, and the abated zeal of the patrons of the militia and its officers revived, and the discipline of the militia was again restored. If this bill should pass, the faith of ministers and of parliament is for ever blasted; it will be obvious that pledges are put forward to carry, a point on public credulity, and not to be kept: their present justification cannot save the then administration from the imputation of the grossest fraud. It is in vain to say, that it was just and equitable to hold out an unalienable defensive militia, to be augmented at the expence of the land occupiers, from the prospect of war; occupiers, was just, and equitable to raise such force at their expence on the breaking force the war, and immediately to seduce them from that service for general service of the public purse, leaving the and occupiers with the expence of that home of which he is to be plundered This is a gross fraud and injustice, and has no termination, for if a change public affairs can in so short a time justify such a change in our defence in as short a time it may justify return to the contrary system, another augmentation may, with equal fitness and propriety, be raised at the renewed expence of the land occupier. Govt has the audacity to propose to parliament, and to do themselves in parliament what no individual would venture to do singly, out of parliament, in the private intercourse of life; or if he practised such iniquities, he would not be endured in society. Such conduct must raise universal indignation and a feeling of criminality to ministers, who have sacri- ficed the constitution of the country to the little views of the moment, and rendered it less the object of love and affection to those who might look with indignation on the errors and vices of Ministers, and with loyalty and affection on the preserved constitutional govt. of the kingdom. Since the peace, the militia has been made a pretence to raise men on the private purse of the land occupier, without relieving him from his share of the public purse. The learned lord on the woolsack knows that when the army of the nation was of old drawn from the land tenants of the crown holding by knight's service, such land occupier was exempted from all talliage or taxes, and was entitled, as of right to a writ of exemption. The land tax has of late been made permanent on him; and a practice has, since the last war, been introduced, which besides an augmented militia to the number Of 60,000 men, has burthened the private purse of the land occupier, and not the treasury of the nation to pay the levy of above. 31000 for the army, of reserve, and nearly 58,000 permanent force by the parish bill, amounting in the whole to 149,000 men not stated by ministers in the army estimates. And let it not be imagined that, the expence falls the less on the occupier because the overseer of the poor may, if he can, raise the men by the sum paid to him by the crown; the act will show that the crown cannot give a sum above three fourths of the bounty that shall be allowed to raise regular forces, and it is not easy for the overseer to obtain a man when government offers for the same man one-fourth more. But should the crown; give only 6d. to the overseer, which the king's minister may do, or any sum much below three-fourths, as to make it quite, impossible to obtain a man, the penalty of 201. per man attaches on the parishes, to be paid by a rate. from the land occupiers, so that the 58,000 men may be raised at the will of the crown, at anytime, and 201. per man, viz. 1,160,0001. The whole sum raised, or to be raised, from the land occupier's purse, since the peace, amounts to three millions and an half, besides the expences incurred in keeping up the force of 149,000 men. This is the reward which the land occupiers have received for their generous and voluntary levy of 32,000 men out of their private-purse; this is the treatment which they have experienced for renouncing, through seal, their domestic comfort without professional views. These acts of hardship and injustice have not even the dirty plea of economy in obtaining men for general service. A short statement will prove this beyond doubt: 401 and even 501. has been given for raising the war augmentation of militia. I put that at the low average of 301.; less than 121. I have not yet heard of, as the intended seduction money, making together 421. for such soldier so obtained; the present price of army recruiting is 161. per man, which deducted from 421. as before stated, leaves a suplus of 261. which is the sum given more than the man is worth; so that the land occupier is charged 261. that the public purse (to which he also pays) may be spared 41.; and the subjects of Great Britain are plundered, that ministers may appear less profuse in the army estimates. They have also another motive, equally criminal, which has induced the repeated augmentation of the militia with a view its reduction. No necessity has been shewn for the present bill, and as the persons we moved tha augmentation concur in the present reduction, they must therefore have intended to involve a large body of men, at the expence of the land owner, in a Situation from whence they could be more easily seduced than from their domestic homes. These are tricks which may not add to the disgrace of a profligate administration, but are below the dignity of parliament, ands dangerous to its constitutional popularity.

The Duke of Montrose

stated, that he felt as a militia officer some regret at perceiving the necessity for reducing that force, but however partial he was to the militia force, he felt also that at the present time the country was more in want of regular disposable forces. He had heard various schemes suggested, but from the best attention he had been able to bestow on the subject, he was convinced that by no other means could a body of twenty or twenty-five thousand troops be added so rapidly, or with so little, inconvenience, to our disposable force. The measure would not diminish our defensive force, for ministers were bound, upon their responsibility always to keep in the country a sufficient number for its defence.

The Earl of Suffolk ,

both in the regulars, and in the militia, had frequently seen the serious mischief arising from irregularity and disorganization Those who had seen the troops embark for Holland, might without the gift of prophecy, have anticipated the event of that disgraceful expedition, The troops in Egypt, which did so much honour to the country, were trained by a most able and illustrious officer, now commander in chief in Scotland, and by another of extraordinary merit (sir Charles Stewart), of whose services the country had been deprived by death. This was not a time, when measures proposed by ministers could be received with much confidence; the misfortunes in the East Indies were known, and new calamities awaited us in the West, in consequence of the escape of the Rochefort squadron, which might be attributed, justly, perhaps, to the deficient vigilance of the noble lord (Melville) at the head of the admiralty. We should not have had to lament such a mischance, if the gallant and illustrious officer, who so lately filled that dignified situation, had still exerted his talents for the protection and glory of the British navy.

Earl Camden

supported the bill, on the ground that an augmentation of the disposable force of the country was necessary, to which the present measure would essentially contribute. This was to be effected in a manner as satisfactory as possible to the feelings of the militia officers, who were a body whom he respected, and who were entitled to the approbation of the country for their zeal and great exertions.

The Earl of Romney ,

after hearing from all parts of the house the praises of the militia and their officers, was much astonished at the reward they were to receive; the men were to be sent out of their native country, and the officers, who were all men of property were to be stripped of the troops they had themselves trained for the purpose of defending that property and their country He was decidedly against the bill which went to the destruction of the most constitutional force in this country. The militia from the time of its introduction in 1756, had been gradually improving in discipline and utility. It had been officered by some of the most considerable individuals in the kingdom, and had far exceeded the expectations of those by whom the institution was originally, brought forward. He was a friend, as much as any noble lord could be, to the augmentation of our disposable force; but he could never consent to this as the mode in which that augmentation could be most advantageously obtained. The augmentation so procured was, at the expence of the feelings and wishes of those who had brought the militia to their present state of improvement, and therefore he felt himself called on to resist the further progress of the measure.

The Earl of Carlisle

considered the present as only another wretched expedient of the present wretched administration. If they, did not destroy the militia completely, it was only because they did not dare to venture on so unpopular a Measure. But though they did not actually destroy the militia, they did every thing which could disgust all Men of honourable feelings. They first employed some of the most respectable gentlemen in the kingdom to exert all their time and influence in preparing the militia for service, and then they withdrew the men from under their control. All the labour was undergone without any of the reward or the honour to which their exertions were entitled. On such grounds he opposed the bill, and declared his conviction that enlisting for a limited period. was, in the present circumstances of Europe, the only effectual mode of procuring that regular force, the necessity of which was on all hands admitted. His lordship illustrated these ideas at some length, and concluded with declaring his determination to oppose the present measure.— The lord chancellor having put the question, that the bill be read a second time, a division took place, when there appeared, contents 102, non-contents 54; Majority 48. The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.—Adjourned.