Lords Sitting of 19 December 1803

MINUTES.
Counsel were heard at considerable length in continuation, relative to the Appeal from Chancery; Keighley v. the East-India Company, viz. Mr. Adam, as second counsel for the respondents. Their Lordships postponed the final hearing till to-morrow.

VOLUNTEER EXEMPTION BILL.—
On the question being put for the third reading of the Volunteer Exemption Bill, a conversation of some length arose, which was opened by
Earl Fitzwilliam,who entered into the general subject in some degree of detail. In the course of his observations, his lordship made a variety of remarks upon certain provisions in the existing acts upon the subject particularly upon the 42d and 43d of his Majesty, and also upon the act of the 33d He expatiated upon the principle on which the volunteers had originally tendered their services, and the terms upon which they were accepted, and which he seemed to contrast with the system which had subse-

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quently been adopted for their regulation: from the tone and direction of the noble earl's voice, we were precluded from hearing many of his observations; but he argued that the entire system required, and speedily, a considerable degree of revision: doubts had arisen, and difficulties were daily experienced which required legislative interference for their explanation and removal. Many of the provisions to which he had referred were inconsistent with the principle upon which the volunteers originally came forward, and, from his view of certain parts of the acts, he deemed it matter for consideration, how far, in certain cases, the volunteers were or were not subject to particular provisions of the martial law. These were points which required the most serious consideration. With respect to the point of exemption, the bill, lie seemed to think, was neither sufficiently efficacious, nor did it extend far enough: there were, several doubts and difficulties which it would not tend to remove; and he remarked upon what he conceived to be the hurried progress of the bill through the House. He therefore, in order to afford an opportunity of considering the introduction of some farther provisions to obviate the difficulties to which he had alluded, would propose that the bill be recommitted. The noble earl concluded by moving accordingly.
Lord Hawkesbury,in answer to several points which had fallen from the noble earl observed, that he regretted his absence from the House for some days past, as then lie would be sensible how Hi tie ground existed for the charge of precipitation against ministers in the progress of the bill through the House; and especially his absence from the Committee on the bill last Saturday, a stage in which many of the noble earl's observations would more regularly apply. The bill was introduced into that House on Thursday, read a second time on Friday, when some discussion of the measure took place, committed on Saturday, and layover for a third reading this day. The bill before the House was merely of an explanatory nature, and very limited in its operation; it tended to do away certain practical difficulties, for which an immediate legislative interposition was obviously necessary. These principally related, as appeared by the bill, to certain points of exemption. With respect to the general subject, relative to which a great deal of what had fallen from the noble earl applied, he repeated what he had said on former occasions, that it was certainly in the serious consideration of his
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Majesty's government, and they were fully aware of what could be advanced on the grounds of revising and ameliorating the volunteer system, but its extensive and complicated nature was at She same time to be considered; however, it was intended that no practicable opportunity of doing that which was on all hands deemed so desirable; and important, should be omitted on the part of ministers. At the same time, though he threw out these observations, he wished to be understood as not pledging himself to the production of any specific measure at any particular time.—Recurring again to some of the noble earl's detailed observations, he admitted, to a certain degree, some doubts and difficulties had arisen with respect to certain provisions of the relevant acts, and respecting which, the most regular authorities, at the time, were resorted to, namely, the law officers of the crown; on opinions promulgated by these, the magistrates acted. With respect to the bill, he deemed its provisions fully adequate to obviate those difficulties it professed to remove; and it was I such as, under all the circumstances of the I case, it was deemed necessary to propose to the legislature: but with regard to any contingent difficulties which might prevail (or such as seemed to be in the mind of the noble earl) until it should please Parliament to adopt farther regulations, if such in its wisdom it should deem necessary, that regular quarter which he had alluded to as arbitrating on former occasions, would be again resorted to, for the direction of the magistrates, &c. in the discharge of their duties; ! he would therefore press the third reading of the bill.
Earl Fitzwilliam,in explanation, supported some of the provisions he had in the first instance advanced. He did not think that magistrates were entitled to act in virtue of an opinion delivered by the law officers of the Crown He apprehended that they could only act agreeably to act of Parliament; and that where any act was inexplicable, they were not entitled to supply its I defects by the opinions of any lawyers, however respectable. If it was meant that the exemptions should extend to volunteers of every description, very few would remain subject to the ballots for the militia and army of reserve; and he thought it of importance that one mode should not be adopted in one parish and another in another. He adverted to the state of the ballots, &c. in the parts of the country where his was connected. These were, in consequence of the difficulties which occurred, in some instances delayed: and the lieutenancy felt themselves

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considerably at a loss. He conceived it to be the duty of ministers, to lose no time in obviating those, difficulties.
Lord Grantleysaid a few words of support of what fell from thy noble Secretary of State, and adverted to the necessity which existed fur the explanatory bill then under consideration.
The Lord Chancellorargued, that nothing which fell from the noble earl militated against the passing of the bill then before the House. The greater part of what his lordship had advanced, went to points which had no connexion whatever with the bill, which I was of an explanatory and a very limited nature. He was free to confess his disapprobation, in certain points of view, of proceedings of this kind: he liked not explanatory act after explanatory act, and exposition after exposition. These considerations should be left, as far as possible, to the construction and explanation of those in whose province it was regularly to explain them: he alluded principally to his Majesty's law officers. With respect to the measure regularly under consideration, the noble, and learned lord coincided with, and enforced what had fallen from the noble Secretary of Stats.
Earl Fitzwilliam,in additional explanation, observed, that his object was. not u> resist she progress of the bill; as far as it went, he rather approved of it; but he considered it as by no means sufficiently efficacious or extensive, and, in that view, lie thought it susceptible of amendment.
The Lord Chancellorthen put the question, and after a few words between him and the noble earl, respecting the point of order on that proceeding, the bill was read a third time, and passed; and a message was immediately sent to the Commons, acquainting them, that their lordships had agreed to the bill, with certain amendments. Their lordships then, after disposing of some routine. business, adjourned during pleasure.—After a short interval, Air. Sargent, accompanied by several members, returned the Volunteer Corps Regulation Bill from the Commons, who had agreed to their lordships' amendments.—This being notified to the House, an adjournment till to-morrow immediately took place.