HL Deb 16 December 1803 vol 1 cc354-63

Upon the motion of Lord Hawkesbury for the second reading of the Volunteer Exemption Bill,

The Earl of Suffolk,

in pursuance of the intimation he had given on a former evening, took the opportunity to deliver his sentiments with respect to topics of which the bill in question formed a part. He professed himself the friend of the volunteer system, which he thought, well regulated and applied, might be rendered of the most essential service to the country. It was not his intention to oppose tile present measure. The volunteer force was a great and desirable accession to the defence of the country, and what he had to trouble their lordships with should principally regard the application of such a force. He begged the attention of their lordships to some circumstances connected with a corps formed in that part of the country where he resided, and composed chiefly of his own tenants: these consisted of about 300 men. From the rank he had the honour to hold in his Majesty's service, he could not be appointed to the command of the corps himself, but the lord lieutenant of the county had the goodness to appoint his son to that station. He, however, materially assisted in the drilling and disciplining of the corps; indeed he had or could obtain no other assistance in the business than that of a Serjeant of marines and a corporal; they were drilled, he believed, about eighteen times before they were inspected; and the state of discipline and order to which they had attained at that period, was hardly to be credited; they were, upon the whole, as fine a body of men as he would desire to see, and really belived he should as soon undertake to lead them against the enemy, as the brigade of guards which he had the honour to command in America, and which had so greatly signalized themselves in that country under Lord Cornwallis and other officers; He was of opinion the. volunteers might be rendered of the most essential service; but every thing should be done to conciliate them, and to keep up that military spirit and ardour with which, in general, they seemed actuated. Singular as it may appear, it was yet in the conviction of every man skilled in military tactics, that soldiers, particularly that description of them which composed the volunteers of this country, may be over-disciplined; and it were obviously better to lead men rather minus in that respect, than in the least under the influence of discontent. The enthusiam of that part of the national force should be flattered as much as possible; they should be as little harassed or fatigued as possible, and, above all, except in cases of direct necessity, care should be taken not to detach them from their homes and families: many of them were in such circumstances, that were they taken from their families and occupations, the former must become parochially chargeable: the poor's rates were severely felt at present, especially by the land-holders, and he alluded to the ill consequences which might possibly ensue in the event of their being materially increased. He was confident that on the occasion of actual service, the volunteers would feel an emulation to equal at least, if not excel, either the. militia or the troops of the line, indeed, all these different descriptions of the national force, would feel laudable spirit of rivalship and emulation, which might be directed in a way to prove highly serviceable. Speaking of the system of discipline which he thought it would be proper to apply to the volunteers, the noble earl expressed his disapprobation of the plan of having majors attached to them: those probably would be inclined to assimilate the volunteers to the military system of discipline, in too great a degree and possibly may conduct themselves in other respects in a way not agreeable to the members of volunteer corps, Another consideration, and not an immaterial one, as considering the present contest likely to be protruded, militated against such a plan, namely, that of economy: the regulation alluded to, would certainly involve a considerable expense, but there was a certain description of regular assistance which he thought the volunteers stood in need of, namely, the assistance of adjutants properly qualified, and as still more indispensable, the assistance of Serjeant-majors, and these regulations would, comparatively be attended with no great expense. He had the highest expectations I from the volunteers, and it was to be remembered, that at the commencement of the French military operations, they were more indebted to the exertions of their volunteers than even to the troops of the line, and infinitely more so than to the services of those conscripts who were, dragged into action.—His lordship then proceeded to take a general view of a defensive system, with a reference to the event of invasion. One of the things which first struck him as most proper to be done, was the establishment of a great military depot in a central part of the kingdom; considering its local situation, and geographical circumstances, he considered Warwickshire as the fittest county for such an establishment: from this county, stores, &c. may be forwarded towards different pans of the coast, as occasion may require. Near to this depot, a great rendezvous of troops may be also established, and which may be periodically changed. Their lordships would recollect that such a depot as he had in his contemplation, was long since, and most judiciously, established in the center of Ireland, namely, in the town of Athlone. He would by no means recommend that military depots should be established on the coasts, or nearer to them than the distance of a forced march, or thirty miles. What would be the consequence if the enemy took possession of a military depot? They would find themselves at once provided with every thing necessary, and, more especially, with several important articles, it was impossible they could bring with them. He then proceeded to recommend the erection at proper stations on the coast, of Martello forts. These would be found of inconceivable service in repelling the enemy; the expense of erecting them would not be great, they were of a circular form, with a roof nearly flat, or but little sloped, and formed so as to be bomb-proof. In them a piece of ordnance was transversely fixed, and so as to move round, and capable of being pointed in any direction; the resistance those erections were capable of was exemplified in an affair which took place on the coast of Corsica last war. One of these was attacked by a ship of the line he believed it was the Terrible) commanded by Captain Young; and which was assisted by a 40 gun ship: in the course of a spirited conflict, the Terrible Was more than once set on fire, as red-hot balls were discharged from the tower. The result was, that both vessels were beat off, and our troops were afterwards obliged regularly to open trenches against the tower before it surrendered. His lordship was proceeding to animadvert upon other topics connected with the defence of the country, when he was called to order by

Lord Hobart,

who begged leave to remind the noble earl and the House, that the subject regularly under consideration was, whether a bill, to explain and amend two acts passed in the 42d and 43d year of the King, relating to volunteer corps, should be read a second time. It was in the judgment of their lordships how far a great part of what had fallen from the noble earl was relevant to such a consideration.

The Earl of Suffolk

proceeded:—he should endeavour to avoid any matter which may be considered as disorderly, as far as possible:—he continued to expatiate upon such topics as he conceived to be in some degree, connected with the subject before the House; and, adverting to the state of Ireland, he observed, that he had lately received a letter from a particular friend of his, an officer of great professional merit, and who was a district general in that part of the united king- dom. He alluded to Sir Eyre Coote; the loiter was of a very consolatory description: the officer in question had traversed 500 miles of that country, and the description which he gave, he was sure, would be very satisfactory to several noble lords who heard him. He begged he might be allowed to read the letter as part of his speech.

Lord Hawkesbury

rose to order. He felt It incumbent on him to interpose on such an occasion, and to advert to the obvious impropriety of suffering the communications of a general officer commanding a district, stating what his private opinions were on topics of so much delicacy and importance, to be so promulgated. Whether the communication was of a favourable or a disadvantageous nature mattered not, in his view of such a proceeding: the practice he thought was highly improper, and were it suffered to prevail, it might be recurred to in cases where the intelligence was of an opposite description. Adverting to the irregularity of what fell from the noble earl in point of order, he followed the example of his noble friend, in stating to their lordships what was; the precise question before them.

The Earl of Suffolk

again rose, and after observing that he stood corrected, proceeded to observe upon certain proceedings which. illustrated the professional abilities of his hon. friend, the general officer in question. He particularly adverted to some circumstances connected with the taking or the evaporation of Alexandria, when

The Lord Chancellor

quitted the woolsack, and deemed it incumbent on him to interpose respecting the question of order. It was with pain that he felt himself called upon so to interrupt the noble earl, a great deal of what fell from whom might, he thought, be better heard in other places.—His lordship then put the question upon the bill, when

Lord Granville

rose, and spoke nearly as follows:—It is not my intention, my lords, to take this opportunity of entering fully into the general system of regulations relating to the volunteers, and the defence of the country, which, from the nature of this I bill, might very fairly do. I mean to confine myself wholly to that particular point more immediately before the House. I shall very early after the recess take an opportunity of discussing more at large a great many points respecting the volunteer system, which I consider as a subject of the last importance. Although, my lords, my objections go in some measure to the frame of the bib, yet I do not wish to object to it altogether, as the delay which the bringing forward a new bill would occasion, might detain the House for several days, merely for that particular subject. One can only regret, that a bill of so much importance should have been brought into the House at so late a period, that it cannot conveniently be deliberatively considered, nor fully discussed. This bill, my lords, goes only to explain two acts of the last session of Parliament relative to the exemptions to be granted to the volunteers; but even this, in my opinion, is insufficiently done by it. The better plan would have been, to have repealed the provisions of the two former acts with regard to exemptions altogether, and to mould the whole into a new bill. For in what situation are we placed by these acts, and this bill of explanation? We impose a task of no little difficulty upon the lord lieutenants, deputy lieutenants, and on the volunteers themselves, by rendering it necessary for them to search into three acts, doubtful in the meaning, if not contradictory. If however, notwithstanding this, your lordships should resolve to pass this bill, trust you will allow me to make one or two observations upon the particulars of the bill which I cannot now properly make in the Committee. One of the acts imposes a difficulty which I have felt by experience. The number of days for attendance at drill in order to exempt a volunteer from the militia and army of reserve are different; I am sure, I know not It why. For exemption from the militia, five days attendance is required, and for exemption from the army of reserve twenty-four days. In one part of the act, the commanding officer is ordered, in making the return of his troops, to declare upon his honour, that he has only returned those who, by having attended rive days' drill, are exempted from the militia. In another part, he is commanded lo give in a return of the whole force under his command, stating those who are entitled to exemption and those who are not. It is utterly impossible that both these provisions can be complied with; I myself was forced to give in a certificate differently Worded from that required by the act of ' Parliament, and others must have done the same, leaving it to the discretion of the lord lieutenants, whether they would accept of them or not. But there is another dilemma to which the commanding officer is reduced. He is ordered in one place to make a return, declaring upon his honour which of those included are intitled to exemptions from the army of reserve and the militia, and which are not. Only one of two choices are here left; but it often happens that many are, by the different number of days required, exempt from the militia, and are not ex- empt from the army of reserve. The commanding officer cannot properly, therefore, comply with the act in his certificate, and is compelled to give one in a different form from what the act requires. But further these acts contradict the 42d of the King, which says, that if a volunteer be drawn for the militia, he shall be recorded as drawn, and exempted only as long as he is a volunteer. The moment he leaves the service, he is called into the militia by the former ballot, and obliged to serve as a supernumerary to fill up tire first vacancy that occurs. Now, in the late defence acts, this point is materially changed; for, as it stands at present, the ballot does not hang over the heads of the volunteers, but any one who is a volunteer on the day of ballot is entitled to exemtion for eleven months and 30 days, or the whole year, except one day; so that though he leaves his corps the moment after his exemption is admitted, he escapes for the subsequent 12 months. What, therefore, I would recommend is, in some measure to new model this bill, which, I believe, may be done in the Committee, so as to apply a distinct and efficient remedy to all these inconveniences. With regard to the volunteers themselves, it is a system of defence which has my highest approbation I do think that it is a force peculiarly well calculated for this country. I do not mean to say that it ever ought to supersede the regular army; such a system never can be expected to supply the want of a regular force. But as an aid to the regular army, I am fully persuaded that they will be of the most essential advantage; nay more, that in this capacity they will perform services which a regular army could never execute. But the system requires much amendment, and, while I declare my approbation of it in general, I cannot but reprobate many of the regulations that prevail among a great part of the volunteer corps. Their government by Committees, in my opinion, ought not to be tolerated, nor their election of their own officers. If these things be permitted to go on, although the evils have not yet been perceived; if Committees and General Meetings be to assemble for the purpose of debating, the same dreadful consequences may, some time, be. apprehended, that the volunteers produced in France. This, however, is not the time for entering fully into that topic; but. at an early period of the recess,. I shall think it my duty to draw the attention of the House to the subject, unless it comes from another quarter; as I think it a matter of the last importance, that many improvement should be made in the provisions relating to the volunteer system,

Lord Hobart

spoke shortly in answer to what had fallen from the noble lord. With respect to the general subject, he need scarcely obesrve, it was in the serious consideration of his majesty's government, and every practicable opportunity would be taken to ameliorate the volunteer system, and to render that part of the national force as efficacious as possible. With respect to the difficulties upon which so much stress had been laid by the noble lord, they certainly appeared to him in a very different light, and he contended that the bill before the House, as far as it applied, went to obviate them—it went to settle the important point of the exemptions. With respect to the returns, no contradictory consideration appeared to him in the mode chalked out for; those proceedings, and although the officer whose duty it was to make the returns alluded to, might possibly not be a perfect master of the provisions of the regulating acts, yet, he may easily obtain the necessary degree of information. He could by no means admit the noble lords position, that the present was such an advanced period of the session, as to render a thorough investigation of the subject impracticable. With a reference to the ensuing recess, which would cause a temporary separation of their lordships, such an observation to a certain extent, did apply, yet the session would subsequently be sufficiently long for every purpose adverted to: and he had also to observe, that the present bill, as indeed every measure of the kind should, contained a provision, authorizing its alteration or repeal in the course of the present session,

Lord Romney

observed, that he approved highly of the volunteer system, but suggested that a force of this kind, pervading the whole country, and intended to act together, ought to be put upon the same footing. As it stood at present, some were to exercise only 20 days, others 34, and so on. This might create jealousies and ill humor, which ought to be avoided. He thought also the exemptions should be granted without reference to the time of the corps being accepted; as they were by no means accepted in the order of their applications. This might arise from letters being mislaid, or some other casualty, such as usually occurs in a press of business. He concurred with his noble relation (Lord Grenville) in his opinions with respect to the regulations of many corps of volunteers, and the unmilitary manner in which they were governed. He had listened to him on that point with the greatest admiration. He also disliked their Committees and their Sub Committees, and much as he was attached to the volunteer system, he would rather choose that every man of them should be disbanded, than that they should be permitted to continue under such unmilitary regulations. If, said his lordship, these Committees are suffered to exist, I have no hesitation to say, that the Monarchy is not safe for six months.

Lord Hobart,

in reply to the noble lord who spoke last, said, that the non-acceptance of the volunteers in the order of their applications, arose from the unexpected press of offers, which made government unwilling to act, except upon some general system.

Earl Darnley

said, that although this bill was extremely imperfect, he rejoiced that even so much was done with regard to the volunteers. The system would still require a great deal of improvement. He approved highly the idea that had been thrown out in another place, with regard to the appointment of held officers and adjutants to the different corps, which, as they were to be exempted, ought to be rendered as efficient as possible.—He alluded lo a query he had put to the noble Secretary of State, relative to the intention of his Majesty's ministers with respect to volunteer regulations previous to the recess; though these, as in the instance of the bill before the House, had fallen short of what he was convinced was necessary to be done, yet he was happy to hear it authoritatively stated, that the general subject, and which was one of die last importance, was seriously in the consideration of his Majesty's government. He perfectly a greed with every word that the noble lord (Grenville) had said, with regard to the regulations, committees, and unmilitary government of many of the volunteer corps, and thought it was necessary that this should be immediately corrected.

Lord Hawkesbury

observed, that the noble earl had certainly put the query to him, which he had alluded to, but it would be in his recollection, that it referred to a general and comprehensive system of regulation, to which he had truly replied, that he knew of no intention on the part of ministers to bring forward any measures on that broad principle previous to the recess. The present was obviously a bill of an explanatory nature, and went to certain points, on which speedy legislative interference was necessary, and, in his mind, it wont fully to obviate those difficulties it professed to remove. Much had been said, and truly, of he vast importance of the subject, and the necessity of farther regulations but then the House would be aware, that it was one of an extensive and complicated, as well as of an important na- ture. To a certain degree the principle was new; already had the volunteers been rendered more efficacious than those which had existed in the late war: the system in the present case must be gradually ameliorated, and in the course of time rendered still more efficacious, and less exceptionable. The original principle on which the force was created and the services of its members accepted of, should not at the same time be lost sight of. The volunteer system was also to be regarded in a certain view, which, under the consideration of the contest in which we were engaged being a protracted one, was one of considerable importance, namely, economy. At the first glance it would appear, that the services of the volunteers were to be acquired incalculably cheaper than those of any other description of the national force. The consideration of the volunteer system, was not only to a certain degree, a novel one, but it proceeded on distinct principles on its own peculiar nature and merits then, was that system to be considered. On these principles it was regarded by his Majesty's government, who, he repeated, certainly contemplated the subject with the most serious attention.

The Duke of Clarence

then rose and observed, that he entirely concurred in the sentiments of the noble lord, whom he had in his eye (Grenville), with regard to the volunteers. He approved the system, but was satisfied that it required a great deal of improvement. He did not intend at present to enter freely into the question; as, after what the noble lord opposite (Hawkesbury) had said, with respect to the intentions of government, any long discussion now was totally useless. And, indeed, it must be apparent, that till the imperfections that no doubt prevailed in the system of the volunteers were ready to be corrected, the less that was said about the matter the better. He would therefore take his own advice and instantly sit down.—The question was then put: the bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow; after which their Lordships immediately adjourned.