Lords Sitting of 12 December 1803

MINUTES.—
The Marquis of Stafford was sworn, and took his seat, on his accession to that peerage; as was also the Earl of Bristol, on a similar occasion.—The lord Chancellor presented a petition from Allen M'Leod, who had been sentenced to be fined and imprisoned, bating his inability to pay the fine inflicted, and praying that their Lordships would be pleased, in consideration of his long confinement, to grant him remission of the line. The petition was ordered to lie on the table.—Lord King moved, that the proper officer be desired to lay before the House an account of the Rank of England Notes in circulation on the 25th of each month, from Feb. to Nov last, distinguishing those under £5. Ordered.—On his Lordship's motion, a similar order was made relative to notes of the Bank of Ireland.—The Bills on the table were forwarded in their respective stages.

EXPIRING LAWS BILL.—
The Expiring Laws Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be commuted to-morrow.
Lord Suffolkrequested the House to take; notice that certain annuities granted in the I time of Queen Anne, for carrying on the I war, expired in 1804. He wished to know from a noble Sec. of State (Lord Hawkesbury) what was the amount of this sum, what was its intended application, and whether it was destined to go to the consolidated fund?
Lord Hawkesburyreplied, that he was not then prepared to state the amount nor the application But this could, however, be no obstacle in the way of the bill, as Parliament would still have the power of disposing of this money in any manner that might be thought exepedient.

CURATES'S RELIEF BILL.—
On the motion for the second reading of the bill for granting a sum of 80001. towards the relief of curates,
The Earl of Suffolkobserved, that although he entirely approved of the principle of the bill, which he considered as calculated to ameliorate the situation of inferior clergymen, he could not think it went far enough. The sum which it provided towards their relief was not sufficient. Indeed, so very hard was the. condition of them, that he had received several letters stating, that the salaries which they enjoyed had not in many instances been paid to the full extent provided by the legislature. The noble lord suggested the propriety, in order to obviate these difficulties, that the money should be paid into the hands of some banker in the neighbourhood of the place where the party resides.—The bill was read a second time and committed for to-morrow.

IRISH HABEAS CORPUS AND MARTIAL LAW BILL.—
Lord Hawkesburyrose to move the second reading of the Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill.—His lordship began his speech by stating to the House, that though it might not be exactly in order, he should, with the view of facilitating any discussion which might take place, introduce any observations which occurred to him to be necessary to justify the motion for the second reading of the Irish Martial Law Bill, which would follow the motion for the second reading of the bill now before the House. He felt himself authorized in pursuing this course, more particularly when he considered, that the same arguments which would convince their lordships of the necessity and expediency of the one bill, would be equally applicable to the re-enactment of

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the other. The circumstances which rendered the renewal of both bills necessary and expedient were now so similar to those under which they had been renewed at former periods, that he did not feel it his duty to trouble their lordships at any great length. When, however, he rose to propose any measure of such magnitude as that now before the House; when he rose to move for the renewal of bills which, to a certain degree, suspended the ordinary privileges of the constitution among a very considerable proportion of the population of the united empire, he certainly considered it incumbent on him to give some explanation of the grounds on which he called on their lordships to vest the ministers of the crown with these extraordinary powers. He trusted that their lordships had seen nothing in the conduct of his Majesty's ministers which could induce them to believe that they would call for such extraordinary powers without the sincerest conviction of their imperious necessity. He would refer to every measure which they had taken, to prove that they had in no instance been forward to avail themselves of opportunities of getting such extraordinary powers entrusted into their hands. In every case of the renewal or re-enactment of bills which went to invest them with powers which for a time suspended the usual privileges of the constitution, they had proceeded on the ground of such imperious necessity. They had seen, on former occasions, that such measures had contributed in a material degree to the salvation of the empire, and they conceived themselves bound, under circumstances nearly similar, to resort to measures of similar precaution and similar vigour. As his Majesty's ministers had not been forward to call for powers which they were conscious that they exercised under a most perilous responsibility, so their use of it certainly evinced nothing of a wish to employ those powers for any other purpose than the preservation of the public tranquillity in Ireland. He was happy that he could state, without fear of contradiction, that no one instance had occurred in which the powers granted by these bills had been exercised with wantonness, indiscretion or cruelty. With respect to the Martial Law Bill, he had to state to their lordships, that the powers which it granted were resorted to only in one solitary instance. In every other case the ordinary common law tribunals of the country had been resorted to. The result of this was not unknown to their lordships, and it was not unfair, from this past experience, to infer, that the same individuals who had exercised their powers with such mode-
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ration, would not be likely to abuse them in future. It was the unfortunate state of Ireland which compelled ministers to resort to measures, which every friend to the constitution would adopt only when he viewed them as essential to the preservation of the state from the greatest miseries which could afflict a kingdom. He referred their lordships to the conduct pursued by ministers on the appearance of a most diabolical conspiracy in this country. On that occasion, several individuals had been convicted, on the clearest evidence, of a most atrocious conspiracy to compass the death of the sovereign, and had suffered the sentence of the law. What, he desired their lordships to recollect, had been the conduct of ministers? Satisfied with having brought atrocious criminals to condign punishment, they had resorted to no extraordinary measures. They had not come to. parliament and called on them to suspend any of the ordinary privileges of the constitution; they had appealed only to the common law courts of the country, and the cause of loyalty had been signally supported, while treason had suffered the punishment which it in every case merited. The Habeas Corpus Act continued in full force. The idea of introducing martial law was not thought of, even for a moment. The reason of this their lordships must clearly comprehend. It was the result of a conviction on the part of ministers, that the loyalty of the great mass of the population was sound to the core. They found that a few frantic individuals had meditated a most desperate attempt on the life of our beloved sovereign; but they knew that the people at large were attached to their king, and devoted to the constitution of their country. They punished criminals, but they did not invade the privileges or suspend, even for a moment, the liberties of a people who had given so many instances of their unalterable loyalty. Very different, however, their lordships would agree with him, was the situation of Ireland. He needed not to expatiate on the circumstances of that country in the year 1798. At that period their lordships were aware that a rebellion, the most extensive, the most desperate, and the most malignant which it was ever the fate of a government to combat, had broke forth with the greatest possible fury. It was not necessary for him to recall to the recollection of their lordships, that the object of that rebellion was nothing short of the dissolution of British connexion, nothing less than the establishment of an independent government by means of the assistance of France. Fortunately, the valour of his Majesty's forces, aided by the co-ope-

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ration of the loyal part of the population, had succeeded in putting down this rebellion, and in restoring tranquillity, at least tranquillity so far as the efforts of general rebellion were concerned. It was not, however, in the nature of things, that all the agitation, animosity, or revenge, which the atrocities of the rebellion had created, should at once subside. It was natural to expect, though rebellion was put down in the field, the spirit of its adherents was not broken. They dared no longer contend with the regular forces arrayed in the field; but they might be supposed to follow their former views in secret, and, unobserved, to prepare the means of new-insurrections and new crimes. This was the conclusion which a general knowledge of human nature justified, and, certainly, events had fully demonstrated its truth. From the time of the rebellion in 1798, there had been various evidences of a spirit of disaffection. Without, however, enlarging on these, he should at present content himself with alluding to the transaction of the 23d of July. With the events of that day their lordships were sufficiently acquainted. The evidence on the trials of the wretched individuals who suffered (or their guilt, clearly explained the object and views of those engaged in the conspiracy. He would not now take up the time of their lordships, in any attempt to point out the extent or the force of this attempt at rebellion. One tiling, however, was undoubted, and he begged leave to call it particularly to the attention of their lordships, and that was the circumstance of the abortive attempt of the 23d of July, having in view the same object, directed to the same end, of destroying the connexion betwixt this country and Ireland, by the assistance of the foreign and common enemy of both countries. Under these circumstances, he begged leave to appeal to the candour and fair judgment of their lordships, whether the notoriety of these events did not furnish a fair parliamentary ground of necessity for the renewal of the bills. A good deal might be urged a? to the severity of the measure of establishing martial law. He would never pretend that this was not to be regarded as a measure of an extraordinary nature, and only to be justified on grounds of an extraordinary emergency. Their lordships would recollect that his Majesty, by the exercise of his prerogative, had the power of proclaiming martial law, when it appeared to him to be called for by the circumstances under which any part of the
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empire might be placed. It was not, however, unknown, that when martial law was proclaimed in this way, all the ordinary forms of law were, for the time being, suspended. In fact, the common law was in the interval considered to be extinct. When circumstances required such an exercise of the prerogative, it was obvious that every member of the community must be subjected to material inconvenience. The object of the present bills was to operate as measures of precaution. They were designed to repress the views of the disaffected, without interfering with the course of civil and criminal proceedings in the ordinary courts. He viewed the Martial Law Bill not as a measure of severity, but of extensive clemency to the loyal part of the community of Ireland. In the course of the rebellion of 1798, the excesses committed on both sides were the subject of much animadversion. The rebels were accused of giving vent to their fury, by acts of barbarous cruelty. On the other hand, many individuals attached to the government, and active in their exertions to put down the rebellion, were charged with the commission of many acts of savage retaliation. Believing, as he firmly did, that there was a great deal of exaggeration respecting the conduct of both parties on the occasion to which he had referred, he could not but allow, that, to a certain degree, they were founded in truth. It was impossible, in the nature of things, that, excesses could be altogether avoided. He was convinced, that the enactment of the Martial Law Bill was the measure which, more than any other, put an end to those excesses. It was clear to every one who reflected for a moment on the subject, that when individuals had the redress of their own injuries, real or supposed, put into their own hands, they were too seldom guided by moderation. The more unworthy passions of our nature too frequently gained the ascendency; and resentment, not satisfied with the punishment of a particular injury, proceeded the length of savage and deliberate revenge. The enactment of martial law put an end to this system. Government were then armed with powers sufficient for the suppression of rebellion. The loyal part of the community felt a confidence of receiving adequate protection. Their individual passions no longer descended lower than the performance of their public duty, and those scenes which, at the origin of the insurrection, disgraced and afflicted humanity, were no longer repeated. This was

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a view of the subject which he considered to be of the highest importance, and he earnestly intreated their lordships to weigh well the inference which it warranted. In this consideration of the question, every argument drawn from the severity of the measure was materially diminished in its application; particularly when it was recollected that, hitherto, it had never been resorted to, with the exception of one case, in he had already, occasion to mention in the beginning of his speech. But, perhaps, it might be argued, that the circumstance of the powers granted by the bill not having been used, was (he best proof of its not being necessary. He must be permitted to protest against any such inference, which did not at all appear to him to be conclusive. It was not by any means unfair to conclude, that the very existence of the powers granted by the bill, was the reason for their never being actually exerted. This was no uncommon circumstance in the history of human affairs. Precaution frequently prevented evils of the greatest magnitude. The apprehension of certain punishment, paralysed the efforts, and blasted the hopes of the most desperate offenders. He had, he trusted, shewn their lordships, that the measures which he proposed were not urged on light or frivolous grounds. He had began by saying, that lie at all times should feel reluctance in proposing measures of severity, or measures which, even for the shortest time, put any part of his Majesty's subjects out of the enjoyment of the ordinary privileges of the constitution. The principle of our constitution, and the principle of which we were proud, was, that the people should enjoy as great a portion of practical liberty as they could enjoy, or, perhaps, he might add, as great a portion of liberty as ever was enjoyed by any civilized community since the beginning of time. It was not to be forgotten, however, that while it was the excellence of our constitution to grant to the people the greatest portion of practical liberty, it was cue of its wisest provisions, that extraordinary powers should be vested in the executive government, on the appearance of circumstances of extraordinary emergency. The object of this wise provision was, to enable the executive government to take proper measures of precaution for the safety of the state when threatened with formidable dangers, and at the same time, as far as possible, suffer the ordinary tribunals of law, to go on with their ordinary functions. Such a power as this, which he
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had now stated grew out of the constitution, and was essential to its perfect application. It was an arrangement for affording to the well-affected part of the empire, the enjoyment of their usual privileges, and, at the same time, arming government with such power as would enable them to put down rebellion, whether openly arrayed in the field, or secretly meditating the means of renewed insurrection. It was to the government, a measure of strength; to the well affected, a measure of confidence and protection; to rebels, a measure of punishment and terror. In whatever light he regarded it as applicable to the present situation of Ireland, it appeared to him the wisest measure of precautionary power, that, under existing circumstances, could be adopted. Nothing but a conviction of its absolute necessity, could have induced his Majesty's ministers to urge its adoption. They had hitherto shewn no disposition to innovate on the privileges of the constitution, and, therefore, in proposing measures at this moment, which every friend to the constitution could propose only from a persuasion of their necessity, they were entitled to full credit for the sincerity of their motives. The noble lord, after a few more observations to the same effect, sat down by moving, first, that the bill for the continuance of the Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill be read a second time.—The question being put from the chair,
The Earl of Suffolkrose, to offer a few remarks to the House. It was not his intention to oppose the motion of the noble Secretary of State for the second reading of the bill more immediately before the House; nor for the second reading of the Martial Law Bill, by which it was to be followed. He lamented exceedingly the necessity of such measures, but, believing them to be necessary, he could not, consistently with his duty, object to their adoption. What he chiefly rose to advert to at present, was the extraordinary deficiency of information which their lordships had to complain of respecting the present situation of Ireland. For his own part he was quite at a loss to know what was the state of that country, from any thing which had fallen from his Majesty's ministers. This was, however, a subject so extremely interesting, that he could not reconcile it to himself not to make some attempt to obtain fuller information. The adoption of measures of severity proved that there was considerable disaffection, and that the people conceived themselves to labour under grievance's which alienated their affections from the govern-

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ment. When he heard of the existence of such grievances, he was naturally induced to inquire from what causes the complaints of the existence of these grievances proceeded. He really knew not where to apply for an answer to this question. he was at a loss to ascertain where he had reason to expect the solution of his doubts on the subject. With this view of the subject, he could not but think, that it was the duty of Parliament to make it the ground of specific inquiry. Till the real situation of Ireland was known, it was impossible for the Legislature to know what were the measures most expedient to be adopted. When the grievances under which the people laboured were considered and understood, then, and then only, could an adequate, extended, and permanent remedy be applied When insurrection existed in a country, and when that insurrection was suppressed, it then became the duty of a wise government to endeavour to discover what was the leading cause which induced the people to desert their allegiance. An inquiry into the stale of Ireland was the indispensable duty of Parliament. He had pledged himself already to several of his friends in private, and he now distinctly pledged himself to the public, that unless some noble lord of greater ability took up the subject, he should certainly feel it his duty to bring the subject of the affairs of Ireland under the serious consideration of the House. He wished to explain to the noble Secretary of State opposite (Lord Hawkesbury), the views which he entertained en this subject, and the sentiments which he felt respecting the best mode of proceeding in the redress of Irish grievances. He begged leave to remind their lordships of what took place when the rebellion in Ireland, during the reign of Queen Elizabeth, was suppressed, It was then the advice of one of the greatest and wisest men that ever existed in any age of the world, ha meant lord Bacon, to her Majesty's government, that they should appoint a commission to enquire into the existing grievances of the people, and to consider of the most effectual means of redressing them. This was sound advice, which every wise and humane government would be disposed to follow. Force might put down rebellion in the field; but it was only the union of lenity and justice which could restore the alienated affections of a people behaving themselves to labour under hardships of a most grievous nature. This, his lordship said was the plan which he meant to recommend. He wished that a limited number of individuals. Members of
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both Houses of Parliament, unconnected with Ministers, with Opposition, or with any party whatever, should be appointed as commissioners to collect full and accurate information respecting the real situation of Ireland. Uninfluenced by prejudices of any description, it would be their duty to examine things exactly as they were, and on their return to furnish a full and impartial report. By the adoption of such a plan as this, the. Parliament would have a fair opportunity of examining the subject of the affairs of Ireland, not on a partial, confined, and in some degree unintelligible scale, but on art ample and comprehensive view of the present circumstances of that country.—His lordship having thus explicitly I put the House in possession of his views, in case the subject was not taken up by other; noble lords, sat down by declaring, that after the declaration of Ministers, and in the present absence of information, he could net, however reluctant he was to measures of severity, refuse his assent to the motion I with which the noble Secretary of State had concluded his speech.
Lord Kingfollowed, and took occasion to animadvert strongly on the situation in which their lordships were called on, to pass bills of the nature which were now under their consideration. The fact was, that not a single tittle of evidence had been produced, to establish either their expediency, or, what was more important, their necessity. Ministers had called upon their lordships to pass bills, which they themselves allowed to be of a description only to be resorted to on. occasions of an extraordinary nature, without adducing a shadow of evidence, to prove that the situation of Ireland was such as to: require such proceedings. It was not to be forgotten, that such a call was not of a trivial or unimportant kind. It made an appeal I to their lordships of a description which demanded the most serious consideration. When tire question was, whether their lordships would pass a bill which would have the effect of literally putting about four millions of subjects out of his Majesty's peace, he begged leave to ask, whether it was either decent or parliamentary to call on Parliament to consent to a measure of such magnitude, without some striking proofs of its necessity or its expediency? It had been urged by the noble lord who introduced the subject, that the powers vested in the executive government by the Martial Law Bill were in no instance abused. His lordship contended, that this was not at all an argument which ought to have any considerable force. The question was not how the powers

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granted by the bill were exercised, but whether such powers were necessary and fit to be intrusted to any executive government. He did not mean to say that the government of Ireland at this moment were guilty of any acts of cruelty under this bill, but he meant to state that, independent of acts of cruelty, many severities might be experienced, many inconveniencies might be felt. When he said this, he wished to shew their lordships how his observation was fully justified. The Martial Law Bill in his opinion, contained such provision as entirely pat it out of the power of part or the inhabitants of Ireland fairly to represent the grievances under which the country "laboured. He would put it to the candour and liberality of their lord-ships, whether any man would choose to put himself in a prominent situation, with all the terrors of martial law hanging over his head. The most respectable individuals in t Ireland might be anxious to come forward and lay before the public an impartial representation of the grievances under which they conceived a large proportion of the population to labour; but was it to be supposed that they would do so, when they knew that by adopting this conduct they would expose themselves to obloquy, if not to the positive vengeance of individuals who would be desirous to misrepresent their views and expose them to the suspicions of government? This his lordship bought a matter of most grave consideration, and urged on the attention of their lordships what would be the consequence of passing such bills in the absence of all evidence of their necessity. What I would the people of Ireland think of the conduct of the United Parliament, if they met with nothing on their part but measures of coercion? Would they not be ready to ask, and that, too, with every claim of justice, that at least some proofs of the necessity of such measures should be adduced? Even now there were many persons in Ireland not reconciled to the Union. It was surely, therefore, no more than what common justice demanded, that the Irish people were not now more severely treated than they were during the existence of a local legislature.—His lordship having urged this point with considerable force, declared that he could not vote against the motion of the noble Secretary of State, limited as was his present information respecting the actual situation of Ireland. He. could not, however, sit down without declaring his conviction of the absolute necessity of a full and impartial investigation of the state of Ireland, a view of its grievances, and a plan of the best means of affording them effectual re-
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dress.—In the course of his speech, the noble lord passed some severe strictures on the unsatisfactory and contradictory views given of the insurrection of the 23d of July. At one time it was represented as a miserable contemptible riot. At other times it was described as a widely extended, and formidable plan of rebellion. He did not pretend to decide which of these representations was correct; but he called the attention of their lordships to them, as an additional proof of the necessity of inquiry. If, on a subject of this notorious kind, there was a difference of opinion; if even his Majesty's ministers were not agreed on the subject, he really could not figure to himself a more decisive argument, to establish the necessity of a general systematic inquiry into the state of Ireland.
The Marquis of Sligorose, he said, merely to say a few words in explanation. He supposed he was one of those alluded to, who had given a favourable view of the general loyalty of the population of Ireland. He had no wish to retract what he had formerly asserted on this subject; he only wished, that what he had said should be properly understood. He had asserted, that the temper of the people of Ireland was materially improved, and he had seen nothing to induce him to alter this opinion. True it was, that on the 23d of July, an insurrection had broke out, attended with circumstances of the utmost atrocity. In point of numbers, this certainly was a most contemptible and a most abortive attempt. He must, however, fully accede to the opinion delivered by the noble Secretary of State, that the insurrection, contemptible as it was in point of numbers or efficiency, was founded on the same principles which the rebels had avowed. These principles were, separation from Great-Britain, the formation of a separate government, and that plan aided and abetted by the power of France. He was decidedly favourable to the re-enactment of both the bills. He was sure that they were essential to the maintenance of the tranquillity of Ireland, and if they were not passed he dreaded the most disastrous consequences.
A short pause having ensued, the Lord Chancellor was again proceeding to put the question from the woolsack: this called up
Lord Granville,who, in common with the other noble lords who had preceded him, declared, that he did not rise with the view of giving his decided opposition to the motion of the noble Secretary of State, who had begun the discussion. He professed, however, that he rose under circumstances of peculiar embarrassment, to offer his senti-

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ments shortly on the subject. The fact was, that at this moment their lordships were wholly without information on the subject of the state of Ireland, while his Majesty's ministers called on them to pass two bills, of a nature not less extensive than that of a power of depriving a large proportion of his Majesty's subjects of the most important privilege? of the constitution. As the noble lord had thought proper to introduce the arguments in favour of both bills in the same speech, he had no objection to follow the same course, though he should have occasion, before he sat down, to shew, that, the arguments which might establish the necessity of the one, would not at all apply in favour of the other. with the general principle laid down by the noble lord, in support of the measure, he most cordially agreed. His opinion on this subject was most decidedly recorded by his conduct. He certainly had always thought, and should on every occasion maintain the same opinion, that there were times and circumstances, when in conformity to the principles of the constitution in its best times, extraordinary powers were to be granted to meet extraordinary circumstances of danger. It was, however, always to be recollected, that the circumstances which established the existence of this danger, should be clearly and unequivocally established. When this was the case, he should never pretend to object to extraordinary powers. Independent of such information, he did not see how any noble lord could in conscience give his support to any call on the part of ministers for extraordinary powers. At present, he thought that Parliament was placed in a most awkward predicament. He felt for himself personally, that he could not offer any decided opinion on the subject of the renewal of the bills. It could not be imagined that any noble lord should be adverse to any plan or measure, for the suppression of rebellion. On the other hand, it was a very serious matter to vote for measures of such magnitude as those now before the House, independent of all evidence of their necessity. At this moment, the only official information which the House had of the state of Ireland, was contained in his Majesty's speech from tire throne. He desired their lordships to consider what was the effect of the information so communicated. Why, the fact was, that four months after what the noble Secretary of State had been pleased to call the transaction of the 23d of July, his Majesty's ministers had advised his Majesty, in his speech from the throne, to assure Parliament, that, since that time, there had been no appearance
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of insurrection, but that, on the contrary, Ireland had remained in a state of undisturbed tranquillity. How far this was an accurate view of the state of Ireland, he had not tire means of ascertaining. This, however, he had to observe, that it was the only official knowledge since the 23d of July, laid before Parliament, relative to the present state of Ireland. It was worthy of observation, however,' the language used respecting this transaction. On the one hand, it was represented as a most formidable conspiracy; while, on the other, it was described as a most contemptible riot. How were their lordships to judge amidst such contrariety of statements? How were they to judge of the necessity of measures, the necessity of which could only be judged of by an accurate knowledge of the circumstances on which the bills were founded? Their lordships must see that they were proposed on grounds very different from any that had hitherto been brought forward. In proof of this, he needed only to refer back to the circumstances under which they were introduced at former periods. At their first introduction into the Parliament of Ireland, their lordships were aware that rebellion actually raged in the country that armies were levied by the insurgents, who disputed with the troops of his Majesty the possession of the island. After the experience of such circumstances, the bills had been repeatedly renewed by the local legislature of Ireland. How did the matter stand at the commencement of the first session of the United Parliament? By the local legislature the duration of the bills was limited to the twenty-fifth of March. At that time, certain circumstances which would be in the recollection of their lordships, but which it was not now necessary for him particularly to explain, prevented the necessity of any inquiry being instituted, as to tire propriety of renewing the bills. It was judged, however, and in his opinion very properly, that it was not giving too much credit to the local legislature to allow them on their authority to be renewed for a short period. The bills were accordingly renewed on the same grounds. But what was the course which Parliament immediately thought it expedient to adopt? A Secret Committee of both Houses was appointed, and it was not till the report of these Committees was produced, that the legislature re-enacted the bills. So far, generally, he must be allowed to say, that no evidence of the necessity of either of the bills was laid before Parliament.—He wished to make some observations more particularly calculated to explain his objections to

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the Martial Law Bill. In the outset of the few observations which he had thrown out to their lordships, he had remarked that the noble lord who began the discussion, had not been altogether correct in mixing the question of the renewal of both the bills. As to the bill for the renewal of the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, though he saw no evidence of its necessity, still he must be permitted to contend that it stood on a footing quite different from that of the other measure. Their lordships would easily see that this assertion could be supported without much difficulty. In forming a judgment of measures of such magnitude, it would not be denied, that the character of those by whom extraordinary powers were to be exercised, was a matter of the highest importance. With respect to the Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill, it would be seen that those who were to exercise the powers which it vested, were persons of the highest rank in the state. Every step they took was a step open to future censure. Every measure they adopted was liable to the severest responsibility. Very different, however, was the situation of those who were to exercise the powers vested in the government by the Martial Law Bill. Their lordships needed only to look at the bill to be convinced, that many of those who were to carry its provisions into effect, if unfortunately it should be necessary to reduce them to practice, were individuals in whom no responsibility of the nature to which he had referred could attach. They might decide from want of adequate knowledge. They might labour under the influence of prejudice. They might in some cases be led away by local prepossessions, or decide under the pressure of temporary passions. He was sure that their lordships would agree with him in thinking, that when such inconveniencies might be experienced, the powers of the nature which the bill granted ought not to be lightly conferred. But, further; he requested of their lordships to reflect, that even allowing that evidence had been given of the necessity of the Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill, the other measures could only be defended by argument of a nature totally different. He begged leave shortly to explain the views on which alone he had supported, or ever could support, a bill for depriving any part of his fellow subjects of the ordinary privileges of the constitution. When martial law was first introduced in Ireland, a rebellion of a most formidable nature raged with the utmost violence. That rebellion, by the valour of the king's troops, and the spirit and zeal of the loyal inhabitants, was suppress-
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ed. As was to be expected, however, much rancour and much malignity continued to agitate those, whose open attempts at rebellion had been defeated. When they found that they could not attack the king's troops, or the loyal part of the community in arms, it was necessary for them to change their mode of attack. A system of murder and intimidation was accordingly introduced, and a regular conspiracy was formed to interrupt the ordinary forms and proceedings of the courts of common law. Magistrates were prevented from performing the duties of their office at the peril of their lives. Judges were prevented from, presiding at trials at the peril of their lives. Jurors were deterred from giving verdicts on the clearest evidence at the peril of their lives. Witnesses at the same hazard were deterred from giving their evidence. In a word, the proceedings of the civil and criminal courts of the country were totally suspended. A system of intimidation had, for the time, annihilated every form of law, and every privilege attached to fair and equitable justice. What was to be done under such circumstances? Some strong measure must have been immediately adopted, or the country must have been left a prey to all these horrors. The measure of martial law was adopted, and the effect which it produced on the restoration of tranquillity was immediate. Government vested with extraordinary powers, was enabled to arrest the progress of these atrocious conspirators. Rebels seeing the prospect of martial law before them, ceased to have any object in obstructing the proceedings of the ordinary tribunals. Things reverted to their former order, and the establishment of martial law, so far from suspending, was, in fact, the means of restoring the operation of the common law-courts. It was from a contemplation of these circumstances, and a knowledge of these effects, that he had, on former occasions supported the establishment of martial law in Ireland. Though he would not go quite so far as to assert, that these were the only grounds on which he could feel himself authorised in voting for a bill which went the length of establishing martial law in any part of the empire, yet he would assert unequivocally, that they were by far the strongest grounds which could induce him to sanction such a strong measure. Having laid down this general principle, he begged leave to put it candidly to their lordships, whether any such evidence had now been adduced to justify the measure? Had the noble lord at all insinuated that any

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system of intimidation at present prevailed in Ireland? Were magistrates impeded in the exercise of their functions? Were judges unable to perform their duties without turbulence and anarchy? Could jurors not give verdicts according to the dictates of their conscience? Could witnesses not deliver their evidence without the dread of fatal consequences r fie was confident that the noble lord would not make any one of these assertions. He appeared, on the contrary, to glory in the idea that the utmost tranquillity prevailed; that the proceedings of the civil and criminal courts experienced no interruption; that criminals were tried without molestation, and that they suffered the sentence of the law without any violation of the public tranquillity. He professed himself astonished, after such admissions on the part of his Majesty's ministers, to hear them gravely asserting the necessity of establishing martial Jaw in Ireland. He would concede to the noble lord, or any other of his Majesty's ministers, that in case of actual rebellion the proceedings of the civil and criminal courts must necessarily be suspended. Common law was in that interval annihilated. It was, during the continuance of such a calamity, virtually extinct. Inter arma leges silent was equally the institution of society and the dictate of reason and nature. He was far from wishing to dispute so obvious a position. But he must object to the introduction of any system to reconcile the existence of martial law and common law at the same period. If the courts of common law could go on with their functions, martial law was unnecessary and dangerous. On the other hand, if martial law were really necessary, the common law, however much the event must be lamented, must for a period lose its application and efficiency. On these principles he must, in an abstract view of the subject, disapprove of the re-enactment of the martial law bill. At the same time he had to lament what he observed at the outset of his speech, that he was so situated that he could not give a decided negative to either of the bills. He did not see fufficient grounds to induce him to think that they were necessary; but, as his Majesty's ministers had declared them to be necessary, he could not at such a moment as this oppose their future progress. He had thought it his duty shortly to deliver his sentiments, and he trusted he had said nothing which was inconsistent with his duty as an honest and independent member of Parliament.
Lord Limerickmade a short but spirited reply. He had himself but? very short time ago left Ireland. He had made it his business to examine carefully into the present situation of that country, and he now rose to state 0 their lordships what was the result of that examination. What he was about to state was grounded on no loose or idle rumours but was the result of positive knowledge and of honest feeling Standing, then, in his place is a representative of the peerage of Ireland, he took on himself decidedly to assert, and he was confident that he should not be contradicted, that the re-enactment of both the bills now before their lordships was essentially necessary to the continuance of tranquility that part of the united empire. He could, with equal safety, make the same declaration in behalf of all the loyal part of the community in that country. They, to a man, expected that the bids would be renewed. They would consider any government which would not propose their renewal as indifferent to their best interests, and would curse the hour in which a united legislature was formed, which would not pass for their protection the measures which had been found so beneficial under a local legislature. The noble lord took occasion to allude to what has been said about the atrocity of the 23d of July, an atrocity, the infamy of which he was afraid would not be easily effaced from the character of his unfortunate country. With those who describe the insurrection of that day as a contemptible riot, he could not possibly agree. Contemptible with regard to number it certainly was; but when its objects and ends v. ere considered, it was of a very different description. He would assert, with-out fear of contradiction, that it bore distinctly all the features of the rebellion of 1798 that it looked to the same object of Irish separation from this country, drat it was fomented before the breaking out of the war by French influence, and that latterly it was encouraged by the hope of French assistance. Such ware his ideas of the insurrection of the.23d of July, and such he was sure were the views entertained of it by all the best affected, and most intelligent persons in Ireland.—As to the want of information adverted to by noble lords, he protested that he was altogether astonished at such language. The insurrection of the 23d of July, and the events which distinguished it, were matters of universal notoriety, and it was absurd to say that they did not furnish grounds to shew the necessity of the measure, It bad been contended against the

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necessity of renewing martial law, that the business of the ordinary courts of law was not suspended, that criminals were condemned and executed without molestation. This he did not wish by any means to deny; but he could account for it in a most satisfactory manner. It would be recollected, that the greater part of the late stats trials had taken place in Dublin. Now, what he desired their lordships to know was, the state of that metropolis while these trials were going forward. At that time there was a force of armed men of not less than twelve thousand. Not a motion of insurrection could go forward. Not a step could be taken by the insurgents without an almost certain detection; under these circumstances it was not to be wondered at that tranquillity prevailed. It was unfair, however, to suppose that, if trials had taken place in remote districts, the same good order and peaceable conduct would have been observed. He was persuaded that the contrary would have been the case. here were, it is true, commissions in the counties of Antrim and Down, and there too no riot or disturbance was experienced. He was proud also to admit this, but at the same time, he thought it necessary to say, that in these counties the spirit of loyalty was decidedly prevalent. The noble lord considered, nevertheless, that nothing short of martial raw could effectually keep down a spirit of insurrection, always ready to avail it self of favourable opportunities. A noble lord (Earl Suffolk,) had said a good deal of the grievances of Ireland, and had intimated his intention to move for a commission, composed of individuals connected with no party. He could not help considering this as a most extraordinary sort of proposition. Irish grievances formed now a very hacknied topic; but, even at present, be declared himself somewhat at a loss to understand the exact import of the term. He believed that those who dilated so much on this subject would collect much useful information from the testimony of Doctor Macneven, Doctor Arthur O'Connor, and Doctor Emmett, the brother of the young man who had lately forfeited his life to the violated laws of his country. What were, he desired their lordships to reflect, the sentiments of these most reverend doctors on the subject of Irish grievances? Was it catholic emancipation they sought for? No! this was beneath their notice. Was it equal representation? the thing was ridiculous. Was it the abolition of tythes? this was equally contemptible. in a word, it was nothing short of Irish independence, and
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the abolition of kingly government. These were the grievances of Ireland, about which, some noble lords appeared so concerned. The noble lord, after dwelling a little longer on this topic, sat down by giving his decided vote in favour of both bills.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that he would not have thought it necessary to trouble their lordships on the present occasion, had ho not deemed it a duty which he owed, both to himself and to the House, in a question of a constitutional nature, to express openly and broadly the ground on which he supported the measure. He, along with the noble lord who spoke last, had, on a former occasion, given his most decided approbation of the adoption of a similar measure in. this country at a period when the exigency of the case seemed to demand it. He felt gratitude at the recollection of that circumstance, and he entertained, and, to the last moment of his existence, should entertain, the deepest sense of gratitude to the noble lord, and to his colleagues in office, for the adoption of that measure. To it, he was morally convinced, their lordships were indebted for their present tranquillity and comfort, and for the privilege which they now enjoyed, of deliberating how far they should submit to a temporary relinquishment of port of their rights, for the permanent preservation of the whole. That the measures now proposed were necessary he was conscious in his own mind. The whole circumstances, which had occurred, had convinced him of that necessity'. He agreed with the noble lord, that it was not on the word of ministers that such necessity was to be taken for granted. Noble lords must be convinced that it actually existed, before they could agree to any measure which had for its object to encroach on the constitutional liberties of any part of the community. In considering this point, he could not throw out of his recollection that a measure, similar to the present, had been adopted with regard to Ireland, on the representation of several of the members for that country, after it had been previously gone into by their own legislature. Whether properly or not, he should not pretend to say, the measure had been allowed to drop; and another application for its renewal became necessary in consequence of the proceedings of the 23d July. It had been said this was a contemptible riot, and DO insurrection; and that, therefore, we were not called on to continue the harsh enactments now proposed. His lordship said, that it was difficult in such a case, to say what was contemptible, and dangerous to sport with a

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danger because it was apparently trifling. What in one hour appeared an inconsiderabe, or contemptible riot, might in a week be a formidable insurrection. What to day was an insurrection, might be in a condition to-morrow to brand with a similar epithet, the regular government which it had originally opposed. It was imprudent; it was worse—it was a desertion of our duty to tamper with popular feelings, or popular prepossessions, to disaffection. But, it was said, his Majesty's speech declared that every thingwasq.net in Ireland, and held out a hope that the deluded people of that country had come to a sense of their folly. This, he maintained, was not a fair inference to be drawn from his Majesty's speech. By the vigilance of government, and by the effect of the late trials, any open appearance of disaffection had been stopped; and the speech, too, held out a hope that his Majesty's deluded subjects in that country were BOW restored to their senses. Might it not, however, be fairly inferred that one of the grounds of that hope was the existence of the very measures now under consideration, and the consciousness that such measures were calculated to aid the loyal subjects of that country in maintaining good order and tranquillity. He could not refrain from paying, not a compliment, but a merited tribute to the criminal jurisprudence of that country, for the temperate, yet firm and vigorous justice, which on the late trials it had administered. While its temperance and moderation must have conciliated the minds of those not lost to every sense of justice and reason, and have taught them to prize that law which, as British subjects, they enjoyed, its vigour must have greatly tended to keep in awe the licentious and unruly, and to convince them that its firmness was equal to its moderation and justice. The circumstance, that it was only found necessary on one occasion to resort to the extraordinary means now proposed, so far from evincing that such measures were net necessary, only shewed the delicacy which government observed in the use of them, and that such powers were properly entrusted to the Irish government. The knowledge that such powers might, when necessary, be employed, might have been the very cause which rendered the adoption less frequent. The notoriety of the recent outrages in Ireland; the uncertainty whether they were completely crushed, and the spirit of insurrection totally extinguished, were, his lordship conceived, sufficient grounds of the measure other grounds might exist, but it was unnecessary to press them forward,
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when circumstances to justify the measure were notorious to all. His lord-hip concluded by giving his hearty assent to the bills; an assent which, in similar circumstances, he should deem himself deficient in his duty were he to with hold from similar applications, as to this country.
Earl Darnleyinsisted that no parliamentary ground was laid for the. present measures. He did not, however, presume to say that they were not necessary. The House, however, ought to be fully convinced of their necessity, and that upon parliamentary grounds, before they passed them. He adverted to the conduct of the government of Ireland, which he was clearly of opinion, was surprised on the 23d of July. Blame, on this account, must attach to ministers, and the recal of the commander in chief seemed to fix it upon him. A noble lord (Limerick) had quoted the opinions of certain state doctors, viz. M'Neven, Emmet, and O'Connor.—"For my part," said Lord Darnley, "experience has taught me to expect no "good in politics from a doctor!"
Lord Hobartsaid, that he would not have troubled the House on the present occasion, had it not been for the concluding observations of the noble lord who spoke last. He knew that no blame did attach to government on that day. They were aware of the attack, and had given intimation to the commander of the forces and to the Superintendant of the Police. Government could not divine in what street the insurrection might breakout; but had the rebels proceeded to the Castle, to the Bank, or to the depot of arms, they would have found every thing in readiness for their reception. He thought it proper to state, that no blame was imputable to the commander of the forces. His dismissal from that situation was at his own request, and his immediate employment afterwards was not meant as a recompence for that situation, but because government would have deemed themselves culpable, had they allowed the military talents of an officer of such known abilities to remain unemployed at the present period.—The two bills were then read as cond time, and ordered to be committed tomorrow.