Deb 16 June 1823 vol 9 cc989-92

The order of the day was read for going into a committee on this bill. On the motion, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair,"

The Hon. G. Agar Ellis

rose and said, that it was quite impossible for him to allow the bill, framed as it at present was, to go into any further stage of its progress, without entering his most decided protest against it. He had hitherto endeavoured, as far as he was able, to promote and assist its progress, hoping that the objectionable parts of it might be mended, and being, as he still was, fully convinced that a complete alteration in the Tithe system of Ireland was essen- tially necessary to the well-being ad tranquility of that country. The decision of the House, however, on the last night when the bill was in a committee, in throwing out in toto the compulsory clause, had put it out of his power to concur further in any way in the prosecution of the measure. If this bill should unfortunately pass into a law, it would either be acted upon or not. If, as he believed, it would not be acted upon, it was surely a most criminal delusion on the people of Ireland, to pass it as a measure which was likely to be of service to them. If, on the other hand, it should be acted upon, it was still worse. For, burthened as it was by that most objectionable clause giving to the commissioners the power of increasing the actual revenues of the Church one-third, it could not fail greatly to increase the disaffection and discontent which at present prevailed in the sister kingdom. He felt obliged to add, and he did it with much pain, that in his opinion nothing could well be conceived much worse than the conduct of his Majesty's ministers this year with regard to Ireland. The began the session with the most flattering premises of amelioration of system, for which they received in return equally flattering promises. And now, the 16th of June was arrived, and he would venture to ask, what had they done towards performing those promises? Nothings—nothing at all—and he would prophecy, that at the end of the session, the only boon they would send over to his unhappy countrymen would be the new Insurrection act; which, if it was necessary, was so because the same infamous and temporising system of government, which had so long degraded and disgraced Ireland, was still persevered in. Upon the grounds he had stated, he should therefore oppose the Speaker's leaving the chair, and move as an amendment, "That the further consideration of this Bill be deferred till this day six months."

Mr. Goulburn

defended the measure, and expressed his hope 'that the House would proceed to render it as perfect as possible, though some of the objects originally in his view might not be accomplished by it.

Mr. Wetherell

said, that as no man could expect that the bill would ultimately pass, it was a useless waste of time to proceed night after night with the discussion of the various clauses.

Mr. Calcraft

observed, that it would be but fair to let the right hon. gentleman complete the measure he had begun. If the House rejected the bill, the right hon. gentleman would only have to return to Ireland, and to tell the people there that he had had the most benevolent views towards them, but that the House had refused to let him proceed with a bill, which if perfected would have remedied all their grievances.

Colonel Barry

thought it would be better to put an extinguisher on the bill at once, than hurry it through during the present session. He had no objection to proceed with the bill if it were allowed to stand over.

Mr. W. Bankes

supported the amendment, as the bill, in no shape, could be rendered palatable to him.

Mr. S. Rice

concurred in the amendment, but gave government some credit for a disposition to remedy existing evils. He feared, however, that the measure was not capable of modification.

Mr. Hume

contended that ministers had abandoned the ground upon which they introduced the bill. There was, besides, nothing useful in the bill. He thought, therefore, that it would be better to allow the people of Ireland to see that the delusion was complete, by discussing the whole of the Bill. Still he would vote for the amendment, if pressed to a division.

Mr. Peel

contended that no delusion had been attempted by government. If the present bill were lost, he should despair of originating any one which could satisfactory.

Mr. Abercromby

considered the bill as utterly useless without the modified compulsory clause, and therefore should vote for the amendment. He attributed the rejection of that clause entirely to the right hon. Secretary's (Mr. Peel's) sitting for the University, of Oxford.

Mr. Canning

admitted the inconvenience of occasionally giving the clergyman an augmentation of his income, but thought it far more dangerous to break through the rule upon which government had uniformly acted, of never compelling any transfer of property without giving the most ample indemnity. He trusted that the bill would not be lost in its present stage. If it was to be hung over to the next session, let it be first completed.

Lord Ebrington

supported the amendment.

Mr. Ricardo

urged the impossibility of fixing exactly, under any circumstances, what should be the right of the clergyman.

Mr. Wynn

supported the principle of ample compensation. He begged to remind the House that in dealing with tithes in Ireland, they were not dealing merely with church property; as one-third part belonged to lay impropriators.

Sir J. Stewart

said, that if the clergyman got the average of the last seven years without any addition, he would get more than he was entitled to. It would be better to put an extinguisher upon the bill at once.

Mr. Calcraft

said, that if the amendment was rejected, he would himself propose a modified compulsory clause.

The House divided: For going into the committee 51. For the Amendment 36. Majority 15.

List of the Minority.
Abercromby, hon. J. Lindsay, hon. H.
Anson, hon. G. Leader, W.
Bankes, W. J. Lloyd, W.
Barry, col. Moore, P.
Browne, hon. D. Knatchbull, sir E.
Browne, James Nolan, M.
Browne, Dom. Normanby, lord
Brownlow, C. Palmer, C. F.
Chichester, A. Philips, G.
Dawkins, H. Oxmantown, lord
Daly, J. Tennyson, C.
Ebrington, lord Ricardo, D.
Fleeming, J. Stewart, sir J.
Fitzgerald, right hon.V Wetherell, C.
Fitzgibbon hon. R. Wood, M.
Forde, M. White, col.
Hart, gen. TELLERS.
Hume, J. Ellis, hon. G. A.
Hurst, R. Rice,T. S.
Kennedy, T.