Grand Committee Report of 11 February 2003

Official Report of the Northern Ireland Orders Grand Committee
Tuesday, 11th February 2003.
The Committee met at eleven of the clock.
[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Gould of Potternewton) in the Chair.]
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Gould of Potternewton): Before the Minister moves that the first order be considered, it may be helpful to say a word about the procedure for today's Grand Committee, particularly for those who were not here yesterday to hear this short guide. Our proceedings are essentially the same as those of the House. Noble Lords will speak standing; all noble Lords are free to attend and participate; and the proceedings will be reported in Hansard.
As we are in Committee, Members may speak more than once on any Motion.
Since this is a new procedure, I should perhaps make it clear to noble Lords that this Committee is charged only to consider orders, not to approve or not approve them. The Motion to approve will be moved in the Chamber in the usual way.
The main difference between our proceedings and the proceedings on the Floor of the House is that the House has agreed that there shall be no Divisions in a Grand Committee. Any Motion on which agreement cannot be reached should be withdrawn.

Official Report of the Northern Ireland Orders Grand Committee

  Energy (Northern Ireland) Order 2003
  11.1 a.m.
  The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn): I beg to move that the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the draft Energy (Northern Ireland) Order 2003.
  This takes forward the Energy (Northern Ireland) Bill. It had begun its Committee stage in the Assembly in Belfast when suspension occurred. Members of the Committee will have seen a number of important changes in the energy sector in Northern Ireland. These follow a number of extensive consultation exercises. The existing regulatory and consumer representation arrangements will be reformed in order to put in place structures to address better the needs of Northern Ireland energy consumers.
  Articles 3 to 7 establish a new Northern Ireland authority for energy regulation and articles 41 to 51 give that authority powers modelled on equivalent provisions in the Utilities Act 2000. The new authority is also given power in article 8 to co-operate on energy issues with other European member states. That will ensure continued co-operation between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland on energy issues.
  NI 16
  The new consumer arrangements in articles 9, 10 and 16 to 27 will bring responsibility for all energy consumer issues within the remit of the General Consumer Council for Northern Ireland. The council will be given increased powers in respect of its electricity and gas functions. Those correspond generally to those given to Energywatch in Great Britain by the Utilities Act 2000. Both the council, under article 16, and the authority, under articles 12 and 14, are required to have particular regard to the needs of vulnerable consumers, such as the disabled, the elderly and those on low incomes. I am sure that Members of the Committee will particularly welcome those provisions.
  The order will help to stimulate the generation and consumption of renewable electricity by enabling the creation of a renewables obligation that is similar to that in Great Britain. The relevant provisions are articles 52 to 58.
  Articles 28 to 40 alter the current licensing system for electricity and gas to enable restructuring of energy business activities to enable full market opening in electricity or, if necessary, for the efficient operation of the electricity and gas markets. Under articles 59 and 60, the order ensures that a major extension of the gas industry can proceed by means of a system of "postalised" gas conveyance charges. Those provisions have been amended during the Bill's conversion to an Order in Council to reflect consultations with the gas companies. Other changes include: an alteration to the definition of electricity transmission, which will enable interconnectors to be licensed—I refer to paragraph 1 of Schedule 3; under article 56, a provision is introduced that will enable the operation of a "guarantee of origin" arrangement to promote renewable energy across Europe through mutual recognition of certificates by member states; and, under article 64, the inclusion of a provision to enable existing and future electricity and gas wayleaves to be made assignable, which remedies a defect in the existing legislation.
  This legislation will benefit the Northern Ireland energy consumer and it will position Northern Ireland to adapt to the changing energy environment in a way that is relevant to the energy industry there. It also aligns more closely energy policy throughout the United Kingdom. I commend the order to the Committee.
  Moved, that the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the draft Energy (Northern Ireland) Order 2003.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
  Lord Glentoran: I thank the noble and learned Lord for briefing us clearly and positively on the order. It is a wide-ranging and very technical order and applies as much to the industry and the trade as to those of us living in Northern Ireland. I also thank the officials for the thorough briefing that they gave me last night and for their attempts to explain some of the technicalities.
  On the positive side, I believe that the Northern Ireland Assembly fully supports the legislation, which has now become an Order in Council. When discussing anything to do with energy in Northern Ireland, we

  NI 17
  should never forget that we have the most expensive energy in Europe. Nothing in the order as it stands will improve that.
  I am a little concerned about one or two other matters in the order. Postalisation could lead us into a situation in which we are subsidising energy in the Republic of Ireland from parts of the north-east and east of the country. In other words, if it was not for postalisation, the cost of energy from the east coast—Ballylumford and so on—would be considerably less. However, investments to take gas to Londonderry to allow another power station to be built and operate there, which would sell its electricity to the Republic, distort the situation somewhat for the local consumer in Belfast. In these days of an integrated Europe, perhaps I should not complain about such matters, although I believe that they are relevant. I am sure that the noble and learned Lord will reply that this is all in the best interests of those of us living in Northern Ireland.
  I could raise several further points in this context but I shall not. I am delighted that the obligation for renewables is in the order. I am slightly confused because the Explanatory Notes state that in relation to the supply of electricity generated from renewable resources, an obligation will be based on the requirement that a proportion of the total supply of electricity to consumers in Northern Ireland "must be renewable energy". Excellent. The provision also introduces the concept of green certificates. That, too, is excellent; we did not have that a year or two ago. However, there appears to be a slight contradiction. The last line states:
  "This part also abolishes the department's current powers in relation to non-fossil fuel obligations".
  I am not sure that I understand the relationship between those two issues. However, the order's references to renewables and non-fossil fuel obligations are excellent.
  I had a briefing from British Gas yesterday and was requested—I believe that I am allowed to do this—to ask the Minister a question; that is, can the Minister confirm that it is his department's intention that the gas pipeline companies that are affected by the legislation will be notified of the period for which they will be included in the postalised system and that there will be no discrimination between different pipeline companies involved in gas transportation for Northern Ireland?
  I return to the question of engineering lower-cost energy for Northern Ireland—reducing the cost of energy to the consumer. At the end of a briefing note that I was given, I was told that in discussion in the Assembly, some amendments were asked for but one in particular was not included. The intention was that the mechanism would be used to refinance various energy assets and contracts, many of which are currently financed by high-interest bonds with consequent savings for consumers. The department spent considerable time working on developing a legislative provision but unfortunately it was not possible to complete the work without threatening the
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  timetable for the order. I do not suggest that we should threaten the timetable for the order in any way but I should like an undertaking from the noble and learned Lord that the work will continue and I hope that we will arrive at a satisfactory solution in due course. In principle I support the order.
  Lord Smith of Clifton: We, too, support the order. It is particularly welcome and most satisfactory that gas will be extended beyond the greater Belfast area to Londonderry. There remains the problem which the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, mentioned—the extraordinarily high cost of fuel in Northern Ireland, which seriously jeopardises its national and international competitiveness.
  Although I note that the measure is cost neutral, I also notice that, in the Assembly, Mr Sean Neeson raised the question of whether there would be a buy-off of long-term energy contracts through either a bond mechanism or low-cost loans. That was agreed in the special Enterprise, Trade and Industry Committee meeting at the time of the Assembly's suspension. The then Minister, Sir Reg Empey, agreed with the committee that some buy-out mechanism should be included. In a meeting earlier this month, Mr Pearson, the Minister, gave Mr Neeson an assurance that that would happen. Last Wednesday, however, I understand that Mr Pearson issued a press statement that he would not do that. I wonder why there has been this volte face in the past few weeks. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord can offer an explanation.
  Lord Rogan: I welcome the order. Indeed, my party colleague, Sir Reg Empey, in his capacity as Minister for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment prior to the suspension of devolution, introduced the Energy Bill in the Assembly. As I said yesterday, my only regret is that the Assembly has been denied the ability to bring the legislation into law.
  The order is the result of extensive consultation on a DoE paper on renewable energy entitled "Realising the Potential", in October 2001, and a further paper on the direction of a new energy market strategy, published in March 2002. There was widespread support for the introduction of an obligation on electricity suppliers to encourage further growth of renewable energy in Northern Ireland. The department was also able to identify priorities, such as consumer representation, the regulatory framework and the postalisation of gas conveyance prices.
  I welcome the creation of a new Northern Ireland authority for energy regulation. This will bring energy, electricity and gas regulation together for the first time. It will also allow the authority to take account of the interests of consumers of gas when considering electricity issues and vice versa. While the authority will be modelled on the structures already in existence in England and Wales, our consumer arrangements are totally different from those in Great Britain. I trust, therefore, that the Northern Ireland authority will be tailored specifically to the needs of Northern Ireland.

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  I also welcome the provision to bring responsibility for energy consumer representation issues together under the remit of the General Consumer Council for Northern Ireland. I am particularly pleased to see that in support of this, the council is to be given strengthened powers to deal with electricity and gas matters and that the council and the authority are required to have a close working relationship.
  The provisions regarding postalisation of gas conveyance charges are vital elements of the order. Postalisation is absolutely necessary to enhance Northern Ireland's infrastructure and enable the gas project to go ahead in the north-west of the Province. Postalisation will mean that the charges for conveying a therm of gas through designated pipelines will be the same regardless of the distance that it is conveyed or the number of pipelines through which it is conveyed. However, I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us what impact that is likely to have on electricity prices.
  Like the noble Lords, Lord Glentoran and Lord Smith, I am very disappointed that the order does not contain provisions for a low-cost borrowing mechanism. My colleagues in the Assembly assure me that there was much support for that—indeed, it was part of detailed discussions with the Treasury—and that an amendment would have been introduced to facilitate it. Devolution has, however, been suspended and no such amendment has been introduced to this order. Can the Minister give us an indication as to why that is being held up? Why is there such a delay? The longer the delay continues, the more it would appear that a vanguard of civil servants are determined to halt its introduction. Can the Minister assure us that that perception is false and give us an indication as to when a low cost borrowing mechanism will be introduced?
  I welcome this order and trust that it will indeed allow consumers to get the best deal and ensure that our economy is as competitive as it can possibly be in relation to our neighbours.
  11.15 a.m.
  Lord Williams of Mostyn: I am grateful for the response, which is generally favourable. I am also grateful for the questions that have been put; some of them are plainly of great importance to our colleagues who live in Northern Ireland and are consumers, either corporate or individual.
  The noble Lord, Lord Rogan, spoke about the effect of postalisation on electricity prices, although I think he welcomed the concept. The cost of transporting gas to power stations will increase by virtue of postalisation but we think it will be of the order of 0.6 per cent—a relatively small increase. But that increase does not take into account the greater efficiencies of the new combined cycle gas turbines at Ballylumford and Coolkeeragh power stations, so there would be a downward pressure there. One would hope that, in the end, the consumer would not notice any adverse effects. Of course, the Moyle interconnector was put into commission in January of last year, so prices to large industrial consumers should remain unaffected.
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  The noble Lords, Lord Rogan and Lord Glentoran, spoke of the general commercial consequences in Northern Ireland.
  Low-cost borrowing was referred to by three Members of the Committee. We gave serious thought to the creation of a legislative mechanism to reduce the cost of borrowing in the energy sector in Northern Ireland. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, referred to representations from a number of companies and the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, referred to a number of Northern Ireland Assembly Members being confirmed.
  It is a complex exercise; there are policy implications in using legislation with such purposes, but I cart tell Members of the Committee that the Minister, Mr Pearson, has given a firm commitment to continue work on this matter and to examine all options to reduce prices. I cannot give the noble Lord a precise date, but that is a firm commitment from the responsible Minister.
  The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, asked about urgency. The postalisation provisions are urgent to enable a major gas project to proceed, as in articles 59 and 60.
  All Members of the Committee who have spoken have a valid point—consumers in Northern Ireland are paying more for their energy. I understand that commitments have been given that work will continue to find a way of securing reductions.
  The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, asked about the non-fossil fuel obligation. The former obligations will be replaced by the renewables obligation, but the non-fossil fuel contracts will be honoured and output from those contracts will be recognised for renewables obligations certificates.
  The noble Lord also spoke about the possibility of subsidising those who live in the Republic of Ireland. As he knows, there is close co-operation between the responsible departments. It is sensible, when considering a single European energy market, to view co-operation as being extended to include the interconnectors. The order puts on a statutory basis the provisions of article 8, relating to co-operation between regulators. However, I am assured that the gas postalisation provisions do not amount to cross-subsidisation.
  The noble Lord asked some other questions. One was whether the implementation would have a detrimental effect on the gas companies. The provisions of articles 59 and 60 have, I think, widespread support. They will come into operation on the day following that on which the order is made. Postalisation will not affect contractual obligations.
  The noble Lord also asked whether the gas companies would be notified for the period for which their pipelines would be included. The provisions of article 59(6) were added to deal with that concern. The provisions ensure that a period, once specified, cannot be altered. All arrangements relating to postalisation will be the subject of detailed discussions involving the regulator, the department and the gas companies.

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  I think that I have dealt with all the questions from Members of the Committee. On behalf of our officials, I express my gratitude for the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, about how helpful they have been. I repeat that if any of your Lordships would like a private briefing with officials on any occasion and in connection with any order, my office will be happy to facilitate that. As the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, knows, that includes the opportunity for consultation using the excellent video facilities in the Northern Ireland Office in London.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 2003
  11.22 a.m.
  Lord Williams of Mostyn: I beg to move that the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the draft Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 2003.
  It has been 10 years since there has been any social housing primary legislation in Northern Ireland. It is not surprising, therefore, that the order is a substantial document. There is a package of measures to deal with anti-social behaviour in social housing, which largely mirror provisions already available in Great Britain. It is long overdue. It is easy to overlook the continuing daily distress that anti-social behaviour by some occupiers can cause for neighbours and the general vicinity.
  Provision is made in article 6 for introductory tenancies. Articles 9 to 12 and 22 to 25 extend the grounds upon which houses can be repossessed to cover nuisance or annoyance caused by visitors to a dwelling. In article 26, provision is made to enable landlords to seek injunctions against perpetrators of anti-social behaviour.
  The order largely replicates the existing scheme of grants to help with the renewal of private sector housing. However, it changes the nature of the scheme to make it largely discretionary and enable more efficient targeting of resources. The Committee will find that in articles 34 to 109.
  Accommodation for travellers has been a contentious issue in Northern Ireland for some time. There has been a division of responsibility between district councils and the Housing Executive. It is plain that it would be more appropriate to have one authority with specific responsibilities. Article 125 and Schedule 2 place responsibilities and duties in that context on the Housing Executive.
  Article 43 and Schedule 3 require the Housing Executive to prepare a registration scheme for houses in multiple occupation. They form part of the private rented stock and provide accommodation for up to 30,000 people in Northern Ireland, mainly students. The scheme will improve quality and safety standards in such houses.
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  There are other miscellaneous matters. Under article 131, the Department for Social Development is enabled to make a house sales scheme for registered housing associations. Through article 132, legislative cover for existing extra-statutory Housing Executive schemes is provided to compensate tenants for improvements and repairs that they have carried out. That is a matter of common justice. Other provisions are made to bring Northern Ireland legislation up to date.
  This is an important order. Many people in Northern Ireland have waited—rather impatiently—to see its enactment. I commend the order to the Committee.
  Moved, That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the draft Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 2003.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
  Lord Glentoran: I thank the noble and learned Lord for his explanation and repeat my thanks to Northern Ireland officials for the considerable time that they spent in briefing yesterday evening. I must also declare an interest: I am a non-executive director of the National House Building Council and spent 27 years working for Redland in Northern Ireland, supplying the building industry. I have been involved in house building in Northern Ireland for a long time. Recently, I was fortunate enough to have a meeting with the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. I know that it is anxious that the Bill—now an order—should become law as soon as possible.
  It is an excellent order. A great deal of attention is paid to the social aspects of housing, in particular the problem of those who cause nuisance and annoyance. It gives the Housing Executive and landlords the powers better to manage that problem. The Housing Executive was unable to manage the matter satisfactorily, and it fell into the hands of the UDA and others. That situation was clearly unsatisfactory, and this move is very positive.
  This is the first time in Northern Ireland legislation that we have attempted to pay serious attention to the position of the travelling community. Over the years, travellers have been a nuisance and will probably continue to be. However, if they are given proper facilities and opportunities and looked after properly, as the order allows the housing authorities to do, it would be a great plus.
  It is also a great plus that the issue of multiple occupation has been considered. We know that there is serious overcrowding in some of the student houses in the university areas. There are health and safety problems and fire risks, so the order is a good move.
  By and large, I am positive about the order. However, I want to raise a warning flag in one area. Chapter VI amends the current legislation on homelessness and requires the Housing Executive to provide a scheme for the payment of grants to tenants who are forced to leave their home as a consequence of violence or intimidation. I mentioned that when I was being briefed by officials last night. We had a

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  discussion, and I was assured that the scheme had not yet been fully devised. If we took the provision at face value, it could open the door to every kind of misuse and put the authorities in a difficult position. I want an assurance that great care and attention will be given to the writing of regulations and safeguards, so that the paramilitaries and those who, we fear, would misuse the scheme can be kept out of the action.
  Overall, I give the order a warm welcome.
  11.30 a.m.
  Lord Smith of Clifton: We, too, welcome the order. I should like to put on record the exemplary way in which the Northern Ireland Housing Executive has operated in very difficult times over the years. It is truly one of the great success stories in Northern Ireland, and I should like that to be stressed.
  I have a little difficulty with one point—the sell-off of housing association accommodation. Northern Ireland house prices have been rocketing at least as much as those in other parts of the UK. I am worried about provision for low-cost housing in Northern Ireland, as I am about low-cost housing in Great Britain. The other day, the Deputy Prime Minister called for a halt to the sale of council houses because the Government's policy is to try to make further provision for low-cost housing for priority public workers. I just hope that we are not, as it were, ships passing in the day, whereby we are selling off a lot of low-cost housing without providing enough of it. House prices in Northern Ireland have, as I said, been rocketing for 10 years or more.
  Other than that, we wholeheartedly welcome the order.
  Lord Rogan: I, too, very much welcome the order. Again, my only regret is that the legislation must be considered here as an Order in Council rather than as a Bill in the Northern Ireland Assembly.
  The Ulster Unionist Party particularly welcomes the provisions for tackling anti-social behaviour. We fully recognise the misery and disruption that anti-social behaviour such as harassment, intimidation, vandalism, noise, litter and—particularly in Northern Ireland—graffiti and drugs can cause to individuals. It can also destroy communities and lead to areas of abandoned housing. The establishment of an introductory tenancy regime—a probationary tenancy for a period of one year—was something for which my colleagues in the Assembly pushed long and hard. I am therefore especially pleased to see that provision in the order.
  We are keen to ensure that landlords have the means to deal swiftly and effectively with nuisance tenants. The exercise of sanctions is clearly a necessary component in the deterrence of anti-social behaviour and we are very much in favour of legislation to help deal with the problem. We particularly welcome the extension of the grounds that constitute nuisance or annoyance to neighbours to include domestic violence. My Assembly colleagues worked also to gain that provision. It covers married couples, or those living together as husband and wife. However, can the
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  Minister confirm that domestic violence in this context also refers to violence against children, particularly those in one-parent families, as that does not appear to be included in the order?
  We support changes to the current legislation to enable the Housing Executive, a registered housing association or certain private sector landlords to take court action against tenants—and others—w hose anti-social behaviour affects their property. We do, however, wish to see these powers to grant injunctions extended to include non-residential premises such as shops or community centres serving the locality. We would also welcome a further extension and tightening of the definition of anti-social behaviour. It should include harassment, alarm or distress to persons not of the same household, and also unreasonable interference with people's rights to use and enjoy their home and surrounding community.
  With regard to Part III, on grants, we support discretionary grants targeted towards those who most need assistance. However, can the Minister tell us on what basis grants will be made? Who decides on where need is greatest? We are also concerned that there are insufficient finances available for a mandatory grant scheme. I ask the Minister to give us an indication as to the funds available for this scheme and how it will work in practice.
  The Ulster Unionist Party recognises that homelessness is a very serious social and economic problem that must be given priority by the Department for Social Development. We regard the prevention of homelessness as the key principle in developing strategies to deal with this issue. However, we also recognise that the plight of the currently homeless should not be overlooked. In this context, I pay tribute to the work of the Housing Executive and to the commitment of the many voluntary and charitable organisations throughout Northern Ireland in the effort to tackle the complex problems associated with homelessness.
  We welcome the distinction made between those who are homeless intentionally and those who are homeless unintentionally. We have campaigned to ensure that a person is designated as intentionally homeless if he or she has deliberately done or failed to do anything that led to the loss of accommodation that was thought reasonable for them to occupy. Can the Minister tell us what special attention will be given to the prevention of homelessness among patients leaving custody and young people leaving care? Will there also be a provision for young people—aged 16 or 17—to be entitled to assistance from the Housing Executive?
  We support the development of a clear and cohesive strategy on homelessness to provide a stable and supportive living environment for those who find themselves in the plight of homelessness. I trust that as a result of this order we will see an integrated, interdepartmental and interagency approach. However, can the Minister tell us whether there will be a common code of practice for the Housing Executive and all other organisations dealing with homelessness?

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  In conclusion, I very much welcome the order, particularly the provisions intended to tackle anti-social behaviour. I look forward to the Minister's reply.
  Baroness O'Cathain: May I ask for a point of clarification on succession on the death of a tenant, which comes under articles 13 and 14? It really surprises me that,
  "A person is qualified to succeed the tenant under an introductory tenancy if he occupies the dwelling-house as his only or principal home at the time of the tenant's death and either—

  (a) he is the tenant's spouse, or

  (b) he is another member of the tenant's family".

  It might seem strange to the noble and learned Lord that I am taking up the cause of those who are cohabiting, in view of our previous arguments. But what would happen if people had been cohabiting? Perhaps I am reading the provision incorrectly, but it seems rather harsh. I dare say that the answer could be a joint tenancy, but many people do not want to get involved in joint tenancies. If they do not want to get involved in marriage, they might not want to get involved in joint tenancies, but then somebody could be left without a roof over their head.
  Just as an observation, the noble and learned Lord is absolutely right about meeting in the Moses Room. It is so much better than the last time I used to sit here.
  Baroness Blood: I should like to make a few brief points. I may be in a unique situation in that I live in a Housing Executive estate.
  I echo what the noble Lords, Lord Glentoran, Lord Smith and Lord Rogan, have said. The Housing Executive has done a fantastic job at a most difficult time, particularly in the area where I live. I welcome the order, which I think is really good. The idea of introductory tenancies, as set out in Chapter II, is rather novel—if people do not fit the criteria after a year they will be moved on. I look forward to that happening.
  The provisions regarding travellers in Chapter II are a positive step. Travellers in Northern Ireland have been treated rather badly because it has been a question of how each district council viewed their position. So it is good that there is an overall approach to the problem of travellers.
  I have a couple of brief comments about Chapter IV. It refers to anti-social behaviour, and several of my fellow Peers have spoken about that this morning. The noble Lord, Lord Rogan, asked how to define anti-social behaviour. I wonder how enforceable that is. At present, one cannot even get the police to come in to deal with crime in certain housing estates in Northern Ireland. I wonder how far it would be possible to force the police or anyone else to move in to force people out for anti-social behaviour. This is a huge problem in the sprawling estates of Northern Ireland. As the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, has already said, some of those estates have been taken over by the paramilitaries.
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  I also want to draw attention to Chapter IV of the order, which deals with people who are forced to leave their homes and the fact that grants would be available. The Housing Executive has done wonderfully well in that respect. I live in an area where, two years ago, 300 families were forced to leave their homes within a number of weeks. The local officer dealt well with that. My concerns are: who will say who receives the grants; where does one apply for them; and what is the overall level of the grant? I worry that the situation could be manipulated by people who view it simply as an opportunity to obtain more money.
  Lord Molyneaux of Killead: There was always a degree of potential for what one might call "rocky relationships" between the department, the Northern Ireland Housing Executive and the housing associations. However, I believe that that may not have been entirely justified. But, more recently, a central application tenancy list was operated by the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. At that stage, I was a board member of a housing association. I was concerned about the possible loss of what one might call "human relationships" and "human touch" in this delicate matter. I believe it is fair to say that those fears, too, were unjustified, although we must be careful now that the unit is bigger—consisting of three instead of two organisations.
  I hope that we can be assured that the human touch will not be in any way impaired by what is bound to be a more complicated mechanism as a result of the order. The new arrangements might make for greater efficiency, but I hope that they do not lead to the loss of the customer relationship.
  Part II of the order concerns the conduct of tenants—a somewhat thorny issue which brings back many unhappy memories. Such problems were usually dealt with by computer. I am not certain that that is the preferable method because, here again, the hands-on technique is most likely to identify problems long before they appear on the horizon, and that is very important. Once identified, I believe that, at all costs, we should impress upon all concerned the importance of avoiding what I would call "printed paper bombardments". Those are usually far more damaging to relationships—not only to those of the individual tenants concerned but to those far wider.
  Lord Eames: I add my voice to those of my colleagues who have paid tribute not only to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive but to the many voluntary housing associations across the Province which have done marvellous work, particularly over the past few years. I also pay a very warm tribute to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn, for the sensitivity that he has always exhibited in dealing with the problems of Northern Ireland. That has impressed at least one Peer on the Benches on which I sit.
  I want to make two brief points. I believe that the order is one of those unique pieces of business dealt with by the House which has great importance in areas other than those mentioned specifically. The issues in

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  the order cover a wide range of social issues and social problems in Northern Ireland—not least those to which the noble Baroness referred a few minutes ago.
  I want to ask two simple questions. First, cart the Minister tell us, even at this primary stage, what the Government feel is the best road forward to implement the provisions that touch on anti-social behaviour? I have in mind, in particular, the problems that come to my desk time and time again from my clergy—that is, the whole question of people being forced out of their homes by paramilitary organisations or sinister forces. Such people feel at a loss either to obtain help from the police, as referred to by the noble Baroness, or, in this context, to obtain government and government agency help.
  Secondly, I welcome the provisions as regards travellers. That has been a particular problem, especially in my diocese in the border area where a considerable social problem has been promoted by the movement of travellers in large numbers.
  Finally, perhaps I may suggest to Her Majesty's Government that this is a wonderful opportunity to pay tribute to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive and to the army of civil servants who have briefed us and provided help over the years, both here and in Northern Ireland. It is also an opportunity to say that, if this matter is to be dealt with here in the absence of devolution in Northern Ireland, we must exercise the utmost sensitivity in overlapping these provisions with some of the other social needs to which I have referred.
  I greatly welcome the order.
  11.45 a.m.
  Lord Williams of Mostyn: I am obliged to Members of the Committee for their contributions. This debate has been a model demonstration of how to deal with legislation. I agree with Members of the Committee who have said that this is second best to the Assembly considering such matters, but on this occasion it has been quite a good second best.
  The noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, asked about article 13. I know the answer to this—that is why I am dealing with it straight away. I am pleased that social advance and social mores have persuaded the noble Baroness that her recent stance on single-sex adoption was misplaced. I understood that to be the burden of her question.
  Baroness O'Cathain: I thank the noble and learned Lord but he is not going to get away with that! This matter has nothing to do with adoption; it solely involves cohabiting couples and their right to stay in a house if one of them dies.
  Lord Williams of Mostyn: Article 13(b) refers to the spouse and to,
  "another member of the tenant's family".
  "Tenant's family" is defined in article 3(1), which states:
  "For the purposes of this Order a person is a member of another's family if … he is the spouse of that person, or he and that person live together as husband and wife".
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  That partly leads me to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, about domestic violence, which is dealt with in article 23. He asked about the position of children generally and more specifically in one-pa rent families. Fortunately, the position of children generally is now protected. New Ground 2A states that, if domestic violence is proved, sanctions can follow if,
  "one partner has left because of violence or threats of violence by the other towards—

  (i) that partner, or

  (ii) a member of the family of that partner".

  Going back to article 3, "a member of the family of that partner" would include a child. That is very important. It would not be appropriate to evict a single parent who had been found guilty of violence to a child because the child would be left homeless and parentless. The child's rights are amply protected in that context.
  I turn to a general point. Historically, we have always overlooked the menace of anti-social behaviour. I do not put it too highly by suggesting that, in some cases, anti-social behaviour, although not itself criminal, is more wounding to domestic peace, harmony and happiness in one's home than some activities that are criminal. We have been derelict as a Parliament in dealing with that. It is a great opportunity to have this matter instituted in legislation pertaining to Northern Ireland.
  The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, asked about emergency grants and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, referred to those who are driven from their homes by intimidation. There are two dangers in this regard. The first is that of not caring for the person's needs sufficiently; the grief of a person who is hounded from his home I find unimaginable. The second danger involves the perfectly valid concern of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, who asked whether it was possible to abuse the scheme and what safeguards there must be.
  Article 138 deals with both those points. Emergency grants will be provided and the scheme will have to be drawn up by the Housing Executive. On its behalf, I am grateful for all the tributes rightly offered to the executive. The scheme will set out the circumstances, conditions and conditions for repayment under which a grant may be paid. That will all have to be approved by the Department for Social Development.
  In answer to the noble and right reverend Lord, the Housing Executive will monitor the scheme very closely, first, to see that those who are in genuine need receive assistance, and, secondly—a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran—to ensure that the scheme is not abused by those who pretend to have been driven from their homes when that is not the case.
  I turn to a number of further questions. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, said that we should look across all departments. I take that point; it is well made. This Order in Council refers only to housing, but I accept that point and the one made by the noble Lord, Lord Molyneaux, about the human touch. In my own experience, it is useful to test public services in

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  anonymity. I do not believe that it is any good to give one's name because Members of this Committee and this House receive preferential treatment, I am told, although I have never succeeded in getting a decent table at a restaurant. I suppose that that is because Williams is such a common name.
  But my own experience is that, even if the request cannot be met fully, a smile from the counter is just as important by way of therapy for people who are feeling downhearted. I believe that immediately after 1945 a famous Minister in the Ministry of Labour, as it was called in those days, used to put on his cap, muffler and old coat and go to the labour exchange to see how he was dealt with. That would be a useful task for some of us to carry out, although, of course, I shall not apply it to religious organisations.
  The noble Lord, Lord Rogan, asked about young people. Persons with priority need will be provided with accommodation. That includes those under the age of 21 who may be in danger, families with children or disabled persons.
  The noble Baroness, Lady Blood, made an important point about anti-social behaviour, and general questions were raised concerning the lack of a definition. We have left that to the courts. They are well used to dealing with concepts such as nuisance, harassment and so forth. There is a danger of over-prescription because social conditions change, and we would rather give the courts the flexibility which they are well used to deploying.
  Concern about evidence was also raised. If a person has been subject to harassment or anti-social behaviour, he will probably be afraid to give evidence. The provision in this order allows other persons, such as Housing Executive officials, to give evidence about the nuisance or annoyance. That is a very important step forward. In that way, secondary evidence, as it were, can be given both of behaviour and of consequence.
  In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, the department will issue guidance to social landlords to ensure that all provisions are operated reasonably. The point about university students is very well made. I declare my interest as Pro-Chancellor of the University of Wales. It has always struck me that those who are students for a short period of time are among the least protected tenants and are inadequately protected in terms of health and safety.
  The noble Lord, Lord Rogan, also raised the question of the funding of grants. The main grants will be aimed at remedying unfitness and they will be means-tested. Therefore, people on particularly low earnings will benefit significantly from those grants. Where a property requires improvement but is not unfit, owner-occupiers on low incomes will be able to apply for help from the home repair assistance grant. That is means-tested, but the elderly and disabled may well be exempt from that test.
  The question of anti-social behaviour raised by the noble Baroness was also touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Rogan. I believe that I have dealt with that point.
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  The noble Lord, Lord Smith, asked about housing association sales. There is a common waiting list for Housing Executive and housing association properties, and prospective tenants may be housed in accommodation provided by either. We wish to ensure that any schemes that follow reflect a need to retain the levels of specially adapted homes available in the social rented sector. I believe that the noble Lord's wider point is very well founded—that is, one does not want, simply in the rush for sales, to leave a gap in the market which cannot be filled.
  I believe that I have dealt with all the points raised by Members of the Committee. I shall review the transcript carefully. The noble Lord, Lord Rogan, in particular, asked a number of very detailed questions. If I have not dealt with them, I undertake to write to the noble Lord. Of course, I shall copy the letters, as I always do, to all Members of the Committee who have shown an interest in these matters. I am very grateful. I believe, and hope, that we have done our work well on this occasion.
  Lord Glentoran: I forgot to mention one other item. The order also contains a power for compulsory purchase. I have tested that proposition on the officials, and I should like that to be recorded. I understand clearly why and in what circumstances the power will allow compulsory purchase—when the Housing Executive wishes to carry out a scheme but is blocked because of derelict buildings. It is an excellent part of the order. I want to make it clear that we have taken note of the provision and questioned it.
  Lord Smith of Clifton: If I may, I should like to assist the punctiliousness of the noble and learned Lord and protect the prefix of the noble and most reverend Lord, Lord Eames. Being an Archbishop, he is most reverend, not right reverend.
  Lord Williams of Mostyn: Interestingly, there has been a debate in Hansard about this. Whatever adjectival and deeply respectful description I apply always turns out to be wrong; but Hansard—being the excellent institution that it is—always corrects me.
  Lord Eames: I shall not respond to the remark of the noble Lord, Lord Smith, but simply say to the noble and learned Lord that the best way to ensure one's anonymity, to which he referred, is not to wear one's clerical collar.
  Lord Williams of Mostyn: I am grateful for that moment, which has been given to me. I am not entirely certain whether the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, was referring to article 128. No, I think that that is a misapprehension. I think that he was asking about compulsory purchase generally. I wonder if the Committee will allow me to write to the noble Lord and to copy it in the usual way? I am grateful.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  The Grand Committee adjourned at three minutes before noon.