Commons Sitting of 6 May 2004

Preamble
The House met at half-past Eleven o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
  TRADE AND INDUSTRY
  The Secretary of State was asked—
  TRADE AND INDUSTRY

    Small Businesses
    Mr. David Heath: What assessment she has made of the impact on small businesses of changes in tax treatment set out in IR591. [170678]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Nigel Griffiths): The growth in the UK economy, at a time when all other leading economies contracted, is the result of the Chancellor's prudent policies in helping businesses to invest. This measure was designed to encourage businesses to retain profits, to reinvest in their businesses and grow. Sadly, it was abused as a tax loophole simply to avoid paying tax and national insurance by reclassifying income as dividends. The Budget's impact on small businesses will ensure steady business growth and prosperity that is the envy of our neighbours.
    Mr. Heath: Is this not a problem entirely of the Chancellor's making, by ignoring advice at the time and providing a fiscal incentive for incorporation that resulted in a massive 43 per cent. increase in the number of incorporations? Now, the tinker man in the Treasury is reversing the flow and causing a mini boom and bust for small businesses. Do not our small businesses deserve a more stable environment to grow their businesses?
    Nigel Griffiths:The hon. Gentleman might want to consult on this matter on his website. He could perhaps take a leaf out of the book of the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey), who speaks on local income tax for the Liberal Democrats and who, in a survey of his constituents, managed to secure the support of only 12 people for their policy, with 2,400 against. If the hon. Gentleman consults small businesses, he will find that it is widely accepted that the abuse had to be stopped. Indeed, had he attended the all-party parliamentary group, he would have heard the director general of the CBI denounce this measure and
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    the abuse that followed from it and say that the Chancellor had no choice but to close the loophole—a view that is widely held by business.
    David Taylor: When does an incentive become an abuse—when the take-up is higher than Treasury officials predict? Having been an accountant and a financial adviser to small businesses in a life before 1997, I think it deeply unfortunate that this measure was needed. The Chancellor has flagged up the fact that a review of small business taxation will report in the autumn. Will the Minister feed into that process the fact that small businesses—those acorns that will become the oaks of our future economy—need clarity and certainty? Those are the watchwords, not perverse incentives of the sort that were introduced in April 2002.
    Nigel Griffiths:I will certainly feed into that process, and I will feed in the latest Barclays survey, published on 31 March, which shows that 485,000 new businesses started up last year—an increase of 19 per cent. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for all the help and advice that he has given to businesses to ensure that they are now thriving.
    Mr. Andrew Mitchell:Is the Minister now beginning to get from the reaction of the House today the hang of just how annoyed the business community is about this? Having followed the Government's advice on incorporation, are not businesses now faced with extra costs, regulation and taxes, as the Government try to remedy the effects of this blunder? Surely a little contrition, even humility, from Ministers would now be welcome.
    Nigel Griffiths: I treat the joint advice from the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats with the respect that it deserves.

    Pharmaceutical Industry
    Mr. Eric Illsley: What steps she is taking to improve the competitiveness of the UK pharmaceutical industry. [170679]
    The Minister for Trade and Investment (Mr. Mike O'Brien):The UK is one of the world's leading locations for pharmaceutical research and development, and the Government are committed to maintaining and strengthening that position. Our 10-year strategy on science and innovation, as well as specific work undertaken in partnership with the pharmaceutical industry, will help to ensure that we achieve that aim.
    Mr. Illsley:I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that response. As he points out, the UK pharmaceutical industry makes a huge contribution to our economy, investing some 40 per cent. of this country's research and development budget alone. He may be aware that, at a recent seminar in the House, reference was made to the competitiveness of the UK industry compared with that of the United States. Will he look again at the higher spend on drugs in the US, which makes it attractive to highly mobile capital and pharmaceutical

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    companies? Will he do all that he can to ensure that the UK pharmaceutical industry maintains its current position?
    Mr. O'Brien: We shall certainly do all that we can to ensure that the UK pharmaceutical sector enjoys a highly favourable position in the UK economy and is competitive, but it operates in a globalised area of the world economy. The UK continues to be strongly favoured for investment; the rest of Europe perhaps less so. The UK played a key role in the G10, the EU high-level group on innovation and the provision of medicines, which reported to the Commission in 2002 with recommendations to address the growing imbalance in competitiveness and investment with the United States. Europe has great strengths in science and research, but that does not translate into industrial leadership and investment. As in other sectors, the key is to provide the right framework for incentivising and rewarding innovation. We in Britain do so, but other parts of Europe do not. We are working hard, however, to ensure that the European pharmaceutical industry as a whole remains high on the EU's competitive agenda.
    Dr. Andrew Murrison: The health of the pharmaceutical sector in this country is heavily dependent on its research base. In that context, what discussions has the Minister had with the industry about the likely impact of forthcoming legislation, particularly the Human Tissue Bill and the EU clinical trials directive?
    Mr. O'Brien:The Department has had discussions with the pharmaceutical industry to ensure that we respond to its concerns. It may not always want everything that we can do, but it is satisfied that we are listening carefully and are responding with appropriate amendments.
    Dr. Ashok Kumar: Given the importance of the pharmaceutical industry to our economy, as the Minister said, and its strong links with the chemical industry, I wish to raise a matter affecting Teesside, where Huntsman is going to build a polyethylene plant and apply to the Department of Trade and Industry for regional selective assistance. Will he consider that grant and provide all the support that he possibly can, because the plant is very important to the Teesside economy?
    Mr. O'Brien:I accept that it is indeed important, and know that my hon. Friend has made strong representations on behalf of Huntsman. We look forward to intensive negotiations and discussions with the company to ensure that we provide whatever support is appropriate for us to provide. We shall obviously look at all the circumstances surrounding its bid for an RSA grant, arid hope to be able to give my hon. Friend good news, but we cannot guarantee to do so.
    Mr. George Osborne: The 5,000 people who work in AstraZeneca's laboratories in my constituency are a testimony to the investment that is being made in the British pharmaceutical industry. Does the Minister agree that the capacity to make such
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    investment and develop new life-saving drugs is undermined by unilateral decisions by, for example, the Hungarian Government, to slash pharmaceutical prices, thus reducing the amount of money paid for some pharmaceutical products? That has hit profits and the capacity of companies such as AstraZeneca to invest in eastern and central European countries. What are the British Government doing to make representations to the Hungarian Government?
    Mr. O'Brien:Hungary is an EU accession country, and we must ensure that it accepts the need for a level playing field and negotiates with its partners in the EU about the operation of the industry and the support and advantages that it seeks to provide. The aim of the EU is to create that level playing field. As for AstraZeneca, we are listening carefully to the concerns that it shares with other pharmaceutical companies about advantages that are being sought in some eastern European countries, and we shall make appropriate representations or their behalf to the Hungarian Government.

    Battery Recycling
    Paul Flynn: What plans she has to ensure that the reprocessing of end-of-life batteries can be undertaken in the UK. [I70680]
    The Minister for Industry and the Regions (Jacqui Smith):Most car batteries are already recycled in the UK, as are many button cells containing mercury and silver. A plant for recycling lithium batteries is being built in Scotland. Increased collection of household batteries would make such recycling more economic, and my Department has held discussions with a company interested in developing a facility in the UK.
    Paul Flynn: Is it not a nonsensical aspect of environmental policy that the small number of batteries recycled through zinc reprocessing plants have to be shipped to France, because we no longer have such a plant in the United Kingdom? If the directive becomes mandatory, up to 30,000 tonnes of end-of-life batteries may be shipped to France. The news that there will be a plant in Scotland is welcome, but should we not ensure that the nonsense of sending batteries to France is ended and that we develop zinc-processing facilities, particularly at Newport, which has become a major centre for recycling fridges and end-of-life vehicles?
    Jacqui Smith:My hon. Friend importantly links the action that we need to take in response to the EU batteries directive with the opportunities that that provides for recycling. Once we can collect significantly more batteries than we do at present, important opportunities for recycling will obviously open up. I can assure my hon. Friend that the Department is holding discussions on the issue with the battery industry, which is aware of that significant recycling opportunity.
    Mr. Michael Weir: At those facilities, will the Minister consider the recycling of zinc air batteries that are used in hearing aids? There is a great deal of worry among users of hearing aids that under the directive the batteries could effectively be banned because of the difficulties of recycling.
    Jacqui Smith:I agree that we need to be careful to deliver the objectives of the directive, which aims to reduce the disposal of waste, but to do that in a way that does not disadvantage consumers or those who make significant use of particular batteries, as the hon. Gentleman points out. That is why, in the next two weeks, we shall consult on the details of how we take forward discussions on the directive. I am sure that that is one of the issues that will be borne in mind as we carry through that consultation.
    Mr. Julian Brazier:Will the Minister confirm, though, that more motor car batteries are being dumped illegally since the rules on recycling such batteries were tightened up a few years ago? Will she give the House a prediction of levels of vehicle dumping after the introduction of the end-of-life directive?
    Jacqui Smith:The end-of-life vehicle directive, along with other Government measures, related to our action on antisocial behaviour, for example, is an important way in which we can ensure that we reduce the dumping of vehicles. I disagree with the hon. Gentleman on the position with regard to automotive batteries. Already, 90 per cent. of automotive batteries are collected and recycled in the UK through a UK recycling plant. Although the hon. Gentleman can raise concerns about how we maintain that, we already have a good position in respect of automotive batteries, which can only be improved by both the consultation on, and the implementation of, the end-of-life vehicles directive.

    ACAS
    Mr. Elfyn Llwyd:What assessment she has made of the impact of budget reductions in the ACAS public helpline on the planned expansion of that service; and if she will make a statement. [170681]
    Mrs. Ann Cryer:What assessment she has made of the possible effect of proposed reductions in the ACAS budget on staffing levels. [170689]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Gerry Sutcliffe):We are in discussion with ACAS about its future funding. It is too early to speculate on the detailed impact on ACAS staff or operations.
    Mr. Llwyd: As I understand it, the Department is to impose a 10 per cent. cut across the board. I am sure the Minister will recognise the good work that ACAS does in employee-employer relations. As he knows, the helpline deals with 28,000 calls per week, and ACAS intended to expand that service. Will the Minister explain how, in the light of any cuts, the Department expects ACAS to expand the service? If he believes that the service will not be affected by a budget cut, can he say which ACAS services are likely to be cut?
    Mr. Sutcliffe: How ACAS disburses its funds is a matter for the ACAS board, as the hon. Gentleman knows. The Department funds the whole budget. The
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    ACAS helpline has been extremely helpful to small firms and individuals, and we hope it will continue and develop. It has taken over 700,000 calls a year and I believe it will continue. ACAS is reviewing its operations across the board and I believe it will propose many other ways of helping small firms and individuals.
    Mrs. Cryer: With my hon. Friend's great experience in the trade union movement, does he believe that cuts in funding to the frontline staff at ACAS could have a negative impact on industrial relations, which could cost the taxpayer more than any savings made in funding?
    Mr. Sutcliffe: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the matter. It is not our intention to stop ACAS doing the excellent work that it does. We support the work that ACAS is involved with. We are looking at efficiency savings right across the Department and because ACAS falls within the Department's remit, we must examine its efficiency as well, but it is not our intention to interrupt any of the work that ACAS is doing.

    Renewable Energy (New Housing)
    Ian Lucas: If she will discuss with the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister the amendment of building regulations to encourage the use of renewable energy products in new housing. [170682]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Nigel Griffiths):The energy White Paper announced a review of building regulations to encourage the take-up of love-carbon and zero-carbon technologies, and on implementing article 5 of the energy performance of buildings directive. Our colleagues in the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Department of Trade and Industry established a working party on how low-carbon systems could be addressed in the building regulations, and the results are available. I urge my hon. Friend to submit his views to the impending consultation exercise.
    Ian Lucas: A considerable amount of new-build housing is being constructed in my constituency, which is an opportunity to develop the manufacturing industry in renewable energy in the United Kingdom. Sharp Manufacturing has located its manufacturing operation for photovoltaic cells in Wrexham, and we must develop that important market. Will my hon. Friend assure me that he will assist manufacturing industry in that positive development by putting real pressure on the ODPM and, indeed, the Welsh Assembly Government, to take the matter forward?
    Nigel Griffiths: I am delighted that the Government have committed £25 million in grants to support major photovoltaic demonstration projects, which involve installing solar photovoltaic panels in all types of building, and I hope that photovoltaic panels are used as widely as possible. My hon. Friend has contacted the ODPM, and the Deputy Prime Minister knows that my hon. Friend strongly supports the Sharp factory in

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    Wrexham and wants to ensure that it takes a world lead in photovoltaic technology, from which we want British manufacturers to benefit.
    Mr. Kelvin Hopkins: Although I welcome what the Government have done on renewable energy, is my hon. Friend concerned about the long-term security of energy supplies in general? Is it not now time for the Government to put the kind of resources into renewables that were previously put into nuclear energy to ensure that we have safe and secure energy for the future?
    Nigel Griffiths: We take the need to invest in renewables seriously, which is why we have made a multi-million pound investment to showcase some of the diverse renewable structures and mechanisms that are available. It is important that we make up for lost time, and my hon. Friend the Minister for Energy, E-Commerce and Postal Services shares the commitment of my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Mr. Hopkins) to renewables, which he champions.
    Dr. Desmond Turner: I am sure that my hon. Friend agrees that departmental co-operation is essential in delivering energy policy. Will he therefore open discussions with the Treasury on fiscal measures to promote energy conservation and renewable energy, such as reducing VAT on insulation materials and restructuring carbon tax, which is ripe for improvement?
    Nigel Griffiths: The Treasury has considered those matters, on which my hon. Friend speaks with knowledge and concern. I note Government Members' widespread interest in the matter, but no Conservative or Liberal Democrat Member rose to speak.

    Postal Services
    Ann Winterton: If she will make a statement on the reliability of postal services. [170683]
    The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Ms Patricia Hewitt):The Royal Mail has put in place a three-year restructuring programme to improve service delivery and put the company on a sound financial footing. The renewal plan is working. In the first half of 2003–04, 93 per cent. of first-class letters were delivered the next day—the highest figure in 15 years and well above the European average. That figure fell with last autumn's strike action in London, and changes to working practices mean that current performance is around 90 per cent. That falls short of what customers are entitled to expect, and the Royal Mail and the unions must now work together to improve the quality of the service.
    Ann Winterton: Last year, the Royal Mail failed to meet 12 out of 15 of its national performance targets. This year, it will fail them all, and the new chief executive has publicly apologised for its appalling level of service. Will the Secretary of State bring urgent pressure on the Royal Mail to review its plans for reform? In particular,
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    the scrapping of the second post means a later delivery, which is inconvenient for both businesses and households.
    Ms Hewitt: Let me echo the chief executive by adding my apology to any customer who has been inconvenienced by late delivery or loss of mail.
    On the second delivery, let me point out to the hon. Lady that no other postal operator makes two deliveries a day. The second delivery, which accounted for a mere 4 per cent. of mail, was eating up 20 per cent. of the Royal Mail's costs. That was simply unacceptable in a company that was losing more than £1 million a day, which is why it is moving towards one delivery a day. I accept that the new system is causing problems as it settles down. When I spoke to Allan Leighton last week, I stressed, and he fully accepted, the need to get the change to a single delivery working as quickly as possible.
    I hope that the hon. Lady will not make the mistake that some have made in recent weeks of talking down the Royal Mail—as the Conservatives always talk down public services—and sneering at hard-working, honest postmen and women all over our country. I hope that she will take the opportunity to congratulate her local sorting office—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The Secretary of State is getting involved in an argument. I do not think that the hon. Lady attacked the Royal Mail.
    Mr. Peter Pike: Although I certainly want to support the,. Royal Mail in Burnley, does my right hon. Friend recognise that the new system is causing chaos? There are bags of untouched mail, and some places are getting only one delivery a week. That is seriously affecting business, and lots of people are protesting. Will my right hon. Friend tell Mr. Crozier that the Post Office should discuss with the postal workers who have to do the work, and with the unions, what the changes involve? Otherwise, we will have a system in absolute chaos. Perhaps Mr. Crozier should come to Burnley to look at the problem.
    Ms Hewitt: Let me assure my hon. Friend that all the changes that are being made are being decided at the local level by area managers in full consultation with the employees, because that is the only way in which a change of this magnitude can be carried out. I am extremely sorry that my hon. Friend's constituents have been suffering the inconvenience that he describes, and I will certainly draw that to the attention of Allan Leighton and Adam Crozier. I know that my hon. Friend will support the efforts that they are making to deal with the bad industrial relations that have dogged certain of our sorting offices and caused such problems.
    Malcolm Bruce: Will the Secretary of State acknowledge that thousands of hard-working and industrious postal workers will feel let down by some of their colleagues who have pursued damaging unofficial strikes, as well as negligent and, in some cases, criminal activities that besmirch the vast majority who want the service to improve? Does she acknowledge that without

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    investment and change, the Royal Mail will not meet the target improvements that she is talking about, but will face cherry-picking from competitors and a loss of confidence in a universal service? What will she do to ensure that the Post Office has the power and the investment to deliver the changes that will get us back to the first-class service that we deserve?
    Ms Hewitt: We have put new management and leadership into the Royal Mail and we are investing £2 billion to support its modernisation and renewal process, in both letters and post offices. That renewal plan, which is absolutely necessary, is starting to work, thanks in no small part to the huge efforts of hardworking postmen and women who were as angry and dismayed as anybody else by the revelations—which were mainly about temporary workers from just two sorting offices—on Channel 4 last week. We will make the investment and support the reform. The Conservatives would of course make that investment impossible with their public spending cuts.
    Mrs. Anne Campbell: May I tell my right hon. Friend that my postal services in Cambridge are incomparably better than they were four years ago, and that the cancellation of the second delivery has actually led to an earlier first delivery? Certainly, I have heard no recent complaints, despite the fact that it is extremely difficult to recruit and retain postal workers, who do a very good job.
    Ms Hewitt: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend and I know that the postmen and women in her city of Cambridge will be, too. Despite the teething problems that have inevitably accompanied the change from two deliveries to one delivery—an enormous change programme—90 per cent. of first-class letters are delivered the next day in the country as a whole. In most of the 1,100 sorting offices where the single delivery has been introduced, the system is working well.
    Michael Fabricant: Of course we accept the Secretary of State's point that most Post Office workers do an excellent job. Conservative Members are also grateful for her public apology for the Post Office's recent performance. She mentioned the "Dispatches" programme and the items that were destroyed in the River Thames, and she knows that Monday's Postcomm report referred to 8.5 billion items being wrongly delivered and a further 6 million being lost in the past year. She cannot duck the fact that the Post Office is 100 per cent. owned by the Government. What is her personal vision for the future governance of the Post Office? Surely she accepts that it cannot carry on as it is.
    Ms Hewitt: That was a speech rather than a question. Let me stress that we have put in place a new form of governance for the Royal Mail: a publicly owned corporation with the commercial freedom to operate at arm's length from the Government. We called for that when we were in opposition, as did the unions, but the Government whom the hon. Gentleman supported refused to make the change. We have put in place new management and we are supporting the renewal programme, which is starting to deliver. Indeed, the
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    Post Office is now making profits. We are delivering a vision of a modern, competitive Royal Mail, which meets customer needs, supports communities throughout the country, makes a profit, not losses, and has a strong regulator, which we created, not the Conservatives, to ensure that customers get the good deal that they are entitled to expect.
    Mr. Jim Marshall: I do not wish to be accused of talking the Post Office down, but my personal experience and that of my office in Leicester of postal delivery is totally different from that of my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Mrs. Campbell). The situation is incomparably worse in Leicester now than it was four years ago. I hear all the rhetoric about what we have done, and what the Post Office intends to do and has done, but will my right hon. Friend give me and my constituents an absolute guarantee that, in the foreseeable future, delivery times will be increasingly reliable and that the mail will be delivered when the Post Office says that it will be delivered?
    Ms Hewitt: I understand my hon. Friend's concerns, although I know that he will welcome the fact that the Leicester delivery office is one of the best performing city centre offices in the country on tackling misdelivery and redirection. As I said earlier, the change to a single delivery is causing problems in the first two months of its introduction. The new system needs to bed down. It is an enormous change programme and I readily assure my hon. Friend that, as it beds down, the company will revert to the high standards of customer service that his constituents and mine are entitled to expect. I emphasise that the renewal plan is essential to the future of the Royal Mail and I know that he and other hon. Friends will support it as it improves the service to customers.
    Mr. Peter Atkinson: Does the Secretary of State realise that the hard-working and decent postmen and women as well as local businesses in my constituency complain to me about the service? Will she examine the new distribution arrangements? One of the problems is that the mail does not arrive at local sorting offices until much later in the morning because it has not been distributed properly from the main centres. The postmen and women cannot leave until all the mail is sorted.
    Ms Hewitt: That is indeed a problem that seems to be occurring in some places, although it certainly is not happening everywhere. I will readily undertake to draw to the attention of Adam Crozier the specific problem of the postmen and women in Hexham.

    Manufacturing Companies
    Mr. Michael Clapham: What action she is taking to help small and medium-sized manufacturing companies. [170684]
    Mr. Michael Foster: What action she is taking to help small and medium-sized UK manufacturing companies. [170687]
    The Minister for Industry and the Regions (Jacqui Smith):We are helping small and medium-sized manufacturing companies to compete effectively in the increasingly global market with the support of the highly successful manufacturing advisory service and the other measures of the Government's manufacturing strategy—the first for 30 years.
    Mr. Clapham: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that answer, which illustrates the comprehensive package that is available to small and medium-sized enterprises. She will be aware that there are 3.8 million SMEs in the UK, and that they account for 40 per cent. of our gross domestic product. However, one weakness is that only a relatively small number of SMEs export into the EU. Indeed, the Federation of Small Businesses estimates that number at just 22 per cent. What can my right hon. Friend do to make that better? Will she ask her officials to look into what assistance we might be able to give to make the route into the new, expanded European Union better for SMEs?
    Jacqui Smith: My hon. Friend makes an important point. The key to success in export is to be productive and innovative at home. The manufacturing advisory service is making a difference by adding an average of £104,000-worth of value-added to the manufacturers that have used its services. We need to couple that with the kind of support and advice that is provided by UK Trade and Investment and, as my hon. Friend rightly says, to link that to the new opportunities now opening up for our exporters, both small and large, through the enlargement of the EU. I shall certainly undertake to ensure that we redouble our efforts in that regard.
    Mr. Foster: What specific policies does my right hon. Friend's Department have to help small and medium-sized manufacturers deal with the relative strength of the pound against both the euro and the dollar?
    Jacqui Smith: My hon. Friend has identified just one of the many global pressures under which our small and medium-sized manufacturers have to operate. In that regard, I am reassured and encouraged—as I know my hon. Friend will be—by the fact that April's CBI survey showed that output expectations remain high for the second consecutive quarter, and that May's Chartered Institute of Purchasing and Supply survey found that the manufacturing sector had improved for the 10th consecutive month. Strengthening world conditions also offer opportunities for our manufacturers. We need, however, to couple the general support that I have mentioned with the specific assistance that UK Trade and Investment, for example, can offer, and with other activities in order to strengthen our manufacturers so that they are able to compete not only domestically but, increasingly, internationally.
    Sir Robert Smith: One way to help all small and medium-sized manufacturers is to reduce the burden of bureaucracy on them, to allow them to concentrate on their core activity. To that end, the Government held out great hopes in their White Paper on company law reform, which we were told would bring all such law under one heading so that there would finally be simpler
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    law, and ensure that there would be a minimum law for all companies, with only the larger companies having to comply with it. Since then, we have seen no legislation on those reforms coming through Parliament. Can the Minister give us any indication as to when that promise will be delivered to small businesses?
    Jacqui Smith: We are in the process of consulting stakeholders on the way in which we shall implement the recommendations of the company law review, including the important principle of "think small first". We have ways in which we can deliver all that, and we are currently considering how we shall draft the legislation. I would expect that to happen very soon—as soon as parliamentary time allows. Stakeholders have been encouraged by the progress that we have made in dealing with this complex issue, which, as the hon. Gentleman rightly points out, is very important to the whole basis of our company law as a source of our competitiveness, and particularly to small and medium-sized companies.
    Mr. Stephen O'Brien: Does the Minister recognise that, in relation to small and medium-sized manufacturers, the Government's so-called actions have resulted—as announced yesterday by the Office for National Statistics—in UK manufacturing output declining in the last reported quarter? It is now significantly lower than in 1997. Does she acknowledge that, in the fourth quarter of 2003, total manufacturing investment fell by 1.5 per cent. compared with the previous year; that UK productivity growth has halved during Labour's seven years in office; and that, according to the latest figures, jobs in UK manufacturing were down 95,000 in 2002—03? Is she aware that the World Economic Forum's competitiveness ranking shows that, although Labour inherited one of the foremost competitive economies in the world, we have low fallen to a woeful 15th place in those rankings under Labour's regulation state? Where precisely is the financial return to British businesses and taxpayers on the Department's £8.2 billion splurge of their money?
    Jacqui Smith: I will not take any lessons from Conservative Members on support for manufacturing, given the record of devastation of manufacturing during the boom and bust ears under their party. Based on the manufacturing strategy—the first for 30 years—we are
    taking practical action to support our manufacturers, including investment in the manufacturing advisory service, which brings with it £38 million-worth of value-added for our manufacturers, and investment in science and innovation, as well as ensuring that manufacturers can benefit from that through the technology strategy. There is also investment through our regional development agencies in helping to develop support for manufacturers at regional level. All that is practical support that would be under threat from cuts by the Conservative party.
    Mr. O'Brien: As a manufacturer who worked in a business that prospered for all 18 years under the Conservatives, I think that is an extraordinarily poor response. British business will have heard that— surprise, surprise—there is no financial return on all that

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    taxpayers' money, which has been thrown away by this profligate DTI. Instead, we have the Minister's habitual torrent of denial and complacency.
    Under Labour's regulation state, one of the biggest burdens on small and medium-sized businesses, not least manufacturers, is employment regulations. Given the scrutiny that the political parties are under owing to the imminent European elections. will the Minister condemn and discipline her colleagues the Labour MEPs for defying her party's policy by twice voting to remove the UK's opt-out from the EU working time directive? If she will not—her colleague the Minister for Small Business and Enterprise pointedly failed to do so when questioned directly by me at February's Question Time, and did not even mention it in his answer—she knows that the only possible interpretation is that, on this crucial matter, she is confirming that Labour MEPs were accurately reflecting Labour policy to scrap Britain's opt-out from the working time directive. So, let us all listen very carefully—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Far too long.
    Jacqui Smith: I identified three practical areas where the Government are investing and achieving success in supporting manufacturers. We heard nothing from the hon. Gentleman about whether those would, as we believe, be cut under Tory plans. I can assure him that the Government will support decent basic working conditions for our work force and the maintenance of a flexible labour market, which of course has been one of the keys to ensuring that we have 2 million more people in work than when his party was in government.
    Mr. Geoffrey Robinson: My right hon. Friend will be aware that regional selective assistance is important to manufacturing industry and that we have had a series of meetings with her on a medium-sized assembly operation in Ryton in Coventry, while awaiting the approval of the Commission in Brussels. Can she tell the House whether we have had that permission communicated to us, and if not, why not? Will she please hurry it up and let us know when we can expect it?
    Jacqui Smith: As my hon. Friend rightly says, we have been engaged in discussions with the company and with him and our hon. Friends in terms of what we need to do to provide support. I will write to him on the up-to-date situation, but I can assure him that we will continue to engage with hon. Members and the company to make the strongest possible case to the EU with respect to state aid regulations.

    Gas/Electricity (Disconnections)
    Bob Russell: How many (a) gas and (b) electricity customers were disconnected from supply in error in the last year for which figures are available. [170685]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Gerry Sutcliffe):Those are not among the data collected by the industry regulator, Ofgem. Such errors are unacceptable. If there is a pattern of
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    them, I encourage Energywatch to put evidence before Ofgem so that it can take appropriate or necessary regulatory action.
    Bob Russell: The Minister will be aware that there are 20,000 disconnections every year among gas and electricity customers, some of whom will have been disconnected in error. Will he bring pressure to bear on the industry to put into immediate effect Ofgem's recommendation that customers should have direct face-to-face contact with the supplier before the energy is disconnected, as then no error would be made?
    Mr. Sutcliffe: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. Procedures are in place to make sure that vulnerable customers are looked after. Ogem recommendations following the Bates case have been applied, and I believe that that is the appropriate position.
    Tony Lloyd: But will my hon. Friend consider whether there is any other industry in which disconnection of service with such consequences would be allowed? In this day and age, are there not more appropriate means of debt collection than disconnection? Should we not move beyond this antiquated system of allowing the power utilities to cut off supply?
    Mr. Sutcliffe: As I said, the issue is vulnerable people and how they are protected. A code of practice is in place that protects people, and there are many steps to take before disconnection, which I believe are appropriate. If Energywatch can come up with evidence of errors, it is appropriate that Ofgem should then take action.
    Mr. David Cameron: One way in which customers are disconnected is through power cuts. Does the Minister recognise that that is a real problem in rural areas such as mine? I will not ask him to comment on the fact that a number of those seem to be caused by swans flying into electricity pylons, but will he consider the compensation regime, which seems capricious? Is he aware that someone who undergoes four power cuts of three hours each gets compensated, but someone who undergoes six power cuts of two hours each does not?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. That question is far too wide.

    Coal Miners' Compensation
    Anne Picking: What action she is taking to ensure full payment of compensation to coal health claimants. [170686]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Nigel Griffiths):The Government established two schemes to compensate miners for industrial diseases. So far, more than 340,000 sick miners, their widows or children have received £2 billion. I have taken steps to ensure that those who are eligible receive their full compensation payments.
    Anne Picking: I thank my hon. Friend very much for that answer. I am sure he will agree that what the Government are doing in terms of compensation for miners is a good news story. It has been seriously marred, however, by the long delays caused by the unscrupulous behaviour of lawyers and third parties involved. Because the case of a constituent of mine, Mr. Brian Davie, has taken so long, his fee has gone up from 5 per cent. to 15 per cent., which they will glean. We want the money to get to the dying miners—the proud miners who spent 40-odd years down the pits working very hard and who are likely to die before they get their money. Will he fast-track the cases of those who are still alive?
    Nigel Griffiths: Certainly I want my hon. Friend's constituent to benefit, as 2,000 of her constituents have benefited, from compensation of £8 million paid in East Lothian to date. I advise all her constituents, and all hon. Members' constituents, to use those who have signed the claims handling agreement, which makes no charge to the claimant because the Department of Trade and Industry meets those fees. It is unacceptable that anyone should have to pay fees out of their compensation and see any increase in their fees. I will be keen to have details of the case that my hon. Friend mentioned.
    Mr. Patrick McLoughlin: The Government are to be congratulated on this scheme. What casts a shadow over it, as has been said, is the amount of money that has been paid to solicitors. When the Minister says from the Dispatch Box that there has been no charge on the individuals, and it has been covered by the Department, of course, that is still a cost on the taxpayer. Is the Minister satisfied and happy with the way in which the legal profession has responded to this scheme?
    Nigel Griffiths: Yes, I am, by and large. An agreement was reached with the responsible solicitors, the profession and other claims handlers early in the compensation scheme to ensure that every penny that the Government set aside for compensation went to the sick miners, their widows or their families. A separate fund totalling many millions of pounds was set up to pay the legal fees. Those were capped at, from memory, about £2,100, and that agreement was acceptable to all. This is the biggest public compensation scheme in our history. I am grateful for the expert legal advice and help that we have had from the legal profession, and I want to see the payments made as quickly as possible to those sick miners, and when they have passed on, to their widows or families.
    Mr. Dennis Skinner: Is the Minister aware that, after privatisation, many miners, especially in the Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire coalfield, decided to work for private contractors at different pits? In some cases, they worked for the Coal Board, British Coal and perhaps two or three others. The problem is that some of the unscrupulous firms for which the miners worked refuse to take part in the multi-settlement that is necessary. Will my hon. Friend make sure that he gets on to those firms to make them pay their share of the bill? Did he also detect that the hon.
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    Member for West Derbyshire (Mr. McLoughlin) almost hinted that if the Tories got into power they might scrap the scheme?
    Nigel Griffiths: That would indeed be terrible. My hon. Friend speaks with great authority on this matter. I want to ensure that no party is responsible for any delay in the securing of a settlement. We are currently looking at those who are not co-operating fully to establish how we can neutralise that unco-operative attitude and make certain that payments are made, especially to claimants who are still alive and can benefit.

  MINISTER FOR WOMEN
  The Minister was asked—
  MINISTER FOR WOMEN

    Women Prisoners
    Dr. Jenny Tonge: What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department regarding women prisoners. [170670]
    The Deputy Minister for Women and Equality (Jacqui Smith):My official and I have had various discussions with the Home Office. With regard to women prisoners, we welcome the recently published women's offending reduction programme action plan, which aims to ensure that interventions are better tailored to meet the needs of women. I heartily support the Home Secretary's April announcement of a substantial new initiative to fund specialists units, with specially trained staff, for young women in prison.
    Dr. Tonge: I thank the Minister for her response, but she must realise that the number of women in prison has now reached an all-time high—more than 4,600. Even more disturbing is the 200 per cent. increase in suicide rates among women prisoners over the past five years. When can we expect to see some improvement? I appreciate that the Government are trying to do something, but in view of the responsibilities that women have over and above those of men, when will we see a reduction in the number of women prisoners and better conditions for those in prison?
    Jacqui Smith: The objective of the women's offending reduction programme is to help reduce the number of women in prison by ensuring that sentences have confidence in alternatives to custodial sentences. That is already happening. I share the hon. Lady's concern about suicides: that is why I am pleased that there are now "suicide co-ordinators" in each women's prison to tackle the pressures that contribute to the disproportionate number of suicides among women prisoners. I hope that they will begin to make progress in reducing that unacceptable level.
    Julie Morgan: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are currently about 70 women under 18 in prison? Does she think prison a suitable place for young women of that age? The Government have managed to get all the 15 and 16-year-olds out of

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    prison; what can my right hon. Friend do to ensure that the same is done for the very small, very vulnerable group of 17-year-olds?
    Jacqui Smith: I hope my hon. Friend will join me in welcoming the Home Secretary's announcement of considerable investment in the development of specialist units so that when there is no alternative to custody, those young women are kept separately from adults and receive education and support that will prove important for their resettlement.
    Also important is the development of initiatives such as the accommodation-plus initiative, which is being piloted in certain areas. Young women who are at risk of offending are given accommodation, along with educational support to prevent them from offending and ending up in prison.
    Sandra Gidley: As the Minister will know, in 2002 most women's convictions were for shoplifting and non-violent offences. Two thirds of those convicted of such offences were women. Reoffending rates have soared to 60 per cent. What is the Department doing, along with employers, to ensure that women receive training and a promise of employment, so that those cycles are not repeated endlessly?
    Jacqui Smith: The hon. Lady makes a very important point about the need for resettlement services, and I know that the women's team that is responsible for prisons is focusing on them in the action that it is taking forward. In particular, it is investing an additional £640,000 in those services to strengthen the employment advice that she mentioned and to make sure that housing advice and housing provision—they are often a top priority for women—are available to women when they come out of prison so that they can return to their child care responsibilities. It also provides them with the base on which to build their work and lives back in the community so that they avoid reoffending and ending up back in prison.

    Information and Communications Technology Degrees
    Michael Fabricant: What steps she is taking to encourage women to take degrees in information and communications technology. [170671]
    The Minister for Women and Equality (Ms Patricia Hewitt):E-Skills UK, the sector skills council for ICT, is working with employers to make IT degrees, courses and careers more attractive to women. In particular, it is developing a new IT degree that focuses on the use of IT. We know from experience that it is likely to be more attractive to women.
    Michael Fabricant: Does the Secretary of State accept that one deterrent to women entering the industry is the glass ceiling in the UK whereby women are not able to obtain promotion? Is she aware that in the old Soviet Union more than 50 per cent. of managers in this sector were women and there was no Minister for Women in the old Soviet Union? The figure is only 15 per cent. in this country now, so what is the Ministry for Women for—indeed, what is she for?
    Ms Hewitt: Well, I am not for a return to the Soviet Union. I am for the promotion and extension of flexible working opportunities to women and men right across the economy. We know that one of the main reasons why women do not find IT attractive and why, all too often, they do not return to science and technology jobs even when they have the degrees is the lack of flexible working. That is something that the hon. Gentleman knows I have championed. I have changed the law and I am working with employers to spread the best practice that the best employers are already implementing.
    Judy Mallaber: Has my right hon. Friend yet had a chance to look at the research published today by the Equal Opportunities Commission on gender segregation in work and training?
    Mr. Eric Forth: Oh, please.
    Judy Mallaber: Such segregation, including in IT, is one of the major factors in the gender pay gap, and the research would also help in relation to skill shortages in key areas. Will my right hon. Friend take on board the recommendations relating to modern apprenticeships, which is one of the issues that the research has specifically considered, and make sure that they are a priority for our work in that area?
    Ms Hewitt: Judging from the comments we have heard from the Opposition Benches, that is another piece of work that the Conservative party would cut as part of its public spending cuts. The Equal Opportunities Commission is absolutely right. In most sectors, if there is real under-representation of women, there is a real problem with skills shortages. That is hardly surprising if employers are recruiting from only half the potential talent pool. I am working with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Skills to ensure that we spread apprenticeships, so that women go into non-traditional jobs and men go into the caring jobs that have hitherto been dominated by women.
    Mrs. Eleanor Laing: The Minister might note that the real answer to the actual question is that Labour's education policies are not encouraging anyone of any sex to take degrees. Here we have another example of how Labour policies are letting women down. As the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Judy Mallaber) said, the Equal Opportunities Commission reported yesterday that sex segregation in some areas of employment is contributing to skills shortages. I hear what the Minister says about that, but nothing is happening to—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady must not make a speech; she must ask a question.
    Mrs. Laing: I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker. Has the Minister noted that, today, the Fawcett Society warns that key groups of women are "disillusioned, dissatisfied and deserting" Labour? Instead of criticising what the

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    Conservatives did, she might note that Conservatives lead by example because we had a woman Prime Minister—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I call the Secretary of State.
    Ms Hewitt: I am proud of the fact that in the past seven years, we have helped more women into employment and into education than ever before. I am proud of the record increases in child benefit, and of the
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    introduction of the child tax credit and the working tax credit. I am proud of the fact that we introduced the national minimum wage—the Conservatives opposed it—which has helped nearly 1 million low-paid women to improve their earnings. I am proud of the fact that we have doubled the length of maternity leave, increased maternity pay and introduced flexible working. The reality is that Labour is streets ahead of the Conservatives in the representation of women, and in delivering for women real improvements in their daily lives.

Business of the House
12.30 pm
Mr. Oliver Heald: Will the Leader of the House please give us the business for next week?
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Peter Hain): The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 10 MAY—Second Reading of the Energy Bill [Lords].
TUESDAY 11 MAY—Remaining stages of the Housing Bill, followed by a motion to approve the First Joint Report of the Accommodation and Works Committee and the Administration Committee on Visitor Facilities: "Access to Parliament".
WEDNESDAY 12 MAY—Second Reading of the Age Related Payments Bill, followed by, if necessary, consideration of Lords Amendments, followed by motion to approve a money resolution on the Promotion of Volunteering Bill, followed by motion to approve the First Report of the Procedure Committee on estimates and appropriation procedure.
THURSDAY 13 MAY—Consideration of Lords Amendments to the Child Trust Funds Bill, followed by a debate on armed forces personnel on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
FRIDAY 14 MAY—Private Members' Bills.
The provisional business for the following week will be:
MONDAY 17 MAY—Opposition Day [11th Allotted Day]. There will be a debate on a motion in the name of the Liberal Democrats. Subject to be announced.
TUESDAY 18 MAY—Progress on remaining stages of the Pensions Bill (Day One).
WEDNESDAY 19 MAY—Progress on remaining stages of the Pensions Bill (Day Two).
THURSDAY 20 MAY—Conclusion of remaining stages of the Pensions Bill (Day Three).
FRIDAY 21 MAY—Private Members' Bills.
Mr. Heald: Yesterday, the Leader of the Opposition asked the Prime Minister whether it was likely that more British troops would be sent to Iraq, and the Prime Minister said that the Government were "in discussion" and that the matter was "under … review". Yet today, we read on the front page of The Times—there is a similar story in The Sun— that 2,000 Marines are being sent there. So while the Prime Minister was saying one thing here, his spin doctors were saying another to the press.
Mr. Eric Forth: What is new?
Mr. HealdIndeed.
As it is the Prime Minister's birthday today, will the Leader of the House give him a present—a piece of advice—and tell him to cut out the spin and to be frank and straightforward with the House and the country? May we also have a statement on troop deployment?
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The Leader of the House will recall that I have asked him on numerous occasions about the Sessional Orders and the report of the Procedure Committee. When will we have some action and what is the timetable?
I am grateful to the Leader of the House: last week, I asked for two days on the Pensions Bill and he has given us three. I hope that he is setting a precedent; perhaps he can confirm that he is. Has he seen the all-party amendment that would provide compensation to victims of the Allied Steel and Wire pension scheme disaster? May we have a statement before the week after next, explaining the Government's response to this much-needed proposal?
The Foreign Secretary promised weeks ago a debate on Zimbabwe in Government time, yet no such debate has been held. In fact, there has been no such debate in Government time since 1997. The England and Wales Cricket Board is waiting for clear advice from the Government about the proposed tour. The Leader of the House is something of a specialist on preventing cricket tours—will he prevent this one?
Finally, has the Leader of the House seen the article in today's edition of The Guardian entitled "Hospitals in countdown to threat of chaos"? It points out that the Health Secretary has apparently admitted to the British Medical Association that there are 100 days to avert the chaos that will result from the introduction of the working time directive on 1 August. The chairman of the BMA says that the Health Secretary is acting too late, that more than half of hospitals will not be ready, and that there is a risk of overnight emergency admissions being shut down. May we have an urgent statement on this alarming report?
Mr. Hain: The shadow Leader of the House makes every effort—it is no doubt his job—to demonstrate contrived indignation about everything that is going on in the world, but he knows that the situation in Iraq is very difficult and that British troops stand ready to do whatever is necessary and are doing a great job out there at the present time. If and when extra troops are needed, the Prime Minister has made it perfectly clear that he will keep the position under review. There is absolutely no substance in the hon. Gentleman's jumped-up indignation on that point.
I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for wishing the Prime Minister happy birthday—the most successful Prime Minister that Britain has had in living memory. In respect of spin, I was interested to note that the hon. Gentleman did not defend his own party's spin on the council tax. Conservative Members were jumping up and down with indignation on the council tax, on which they quoted figures selectively—a real example of spin.
On Sessional Orders, I have already made it clear that we will respond when we are ready to respond, and in a sensible fashion.
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for acknowledging the extra time that is being devoted to the Pensions Bill. It is particularly necessary because of the dreadful inheritance that resulted from the Conservatives' inability to protect pensioners throughout the country. We are introducing extra protection for pensioners as well as investing more in

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pensions, particularly for those on low retirement incomes. As to the ASW workers and others who have been robbed of their pensions in a scandalous fashion, that issue is under continuing review and will be dealt with if we possibly can do so.
The hon. Gentleman asked about Zimbabwe and I share his and his party's view. I am glad that the Conservatives have at least belatedly come round to their current viewpoint. Some of us have been consistent for decades in opposing political oppression and tyranny in southern Africa, whether it be under the old apartheid system, which the Conservatives apologised for year after year—I recall Mrs. Thatcher attacking Nelson Mandela—or under Robert Mugabe's regime. I believe that we should maintain consistent views on this issue, which has been conspicuously lacking from the Tories. I have made it absolutely clear that, if I were an English cricketer, I would not tour in Zimbabwe, and that is probably the view of many English cricketers as well. However, it is not for the Government to instruct the English cricket authorities what to do on that issue.
On the question of hospitals, the hon. Gentleman has the bare-faced cheek to talk about chaos. We should remember the chaos under the Conservatives, when people were lying on trolleys in corridors day after day. Now we are seeing record investment in our hospitals. Is the hon. Gentleman really saying that doctors should work all through the night and the following day? We are seeking a sensible solution to the problem and we will secure it when it is available.
John Cryer: Further to questions asked last week, may we have a full debate on events in Iraq? I ask that not just because of the recent troop deployment, but having regard to the UN call for an inquiry after the events and slaughter in Falluja. It would also give those Conservative Members who belong to the chattering classes—we should recall that they pressed for war months before we went to war and told the Prime Minister that he should ignore the UN— an opportunity to explain why, after voting for the war, they are now apparently having a pang of conscience. It would also give Labour Members the opportunity to tell them, "Actually, it is a bit too late." More than 20,000 people have died in Iraq, and no matter how much Conservative Members' consciences bother them, it will not bring them back.
Mr. Hain: The situation in Falluja has been very serious. The Government and the coalition are trying to introduce some stability to protect lives. However, my hon. Friend is right to remind the House that the Opposition wanted to railroad us into Iraq, regardless of any UN mandate. Indeed. they criticised the Government for seeking UN support for the action that we took, and urged us to go ahead regardless.
Mr. Paul Tyler: On the subject of the English cricket team's tour of Zimbabwe, the Leader of the House will have noted that the Prime Minister, in reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Inverness, West (Mr. Kennedy), announced yesterday that the Foreign Secretary and, I think, the Minister for Sport and Tourism were going to
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see the England and Wales Cricket Board today. May we have an urgent statement on that? The statement might provide an opportunity for the debate on Zimbabwe that all of us think is necessary, but it should deal specifically with the representations that are to be made to the International Cricket Council.
Yesterday, the Prime Minister said that the problem resided with the ICC. Are the Government and the ECB making a submission to the ICC? If so, what are they trying to get it to agree to? Do the Government agree that there should be criteria, other than the existing ones, that would make it possible for the tour to be cancelled without the penalties that are threatened at present? What is the Government's position on the matter?
My hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr. Foster) has already corresponded with the Minister for Sport and Tourism to suggest that an all-party submission to the ICC would be helpful. Does the Leader of the House—especially given his radical, Liberal past on these matters—agree that now is the time to make a new submission, so that we take account of the moral, legal and ethical issues it involved, and make sure that the tour does not take place?
On the question of the security of the Palace of Westminster, has the Leader of the House seen today's report about security at Buckingham palace? It offers a very open assessment of what has gone wrong there, and what proposals have been made to put matters right. The Leader of the House will recall that I asked him on 25 March how many security passes to this building had gone astray, given the very large number that have gone astray from Government Departments. Can he give me that figure now? If lot, will he write to me about it?
Finally, will the Leader of the House confirm the Government's position in respect of votes at 16? The Electoral Commission has made one recommendation, but we are now told that Ministers take a different view. What is the Government's position on the matter?
Mr. Hain: First, I acknowledge that the Liberals, the Liberal Democrats and Labour have been consistent in their battle against apartheid in sport over the past 30 or 40 years, and they are adopting the same approach to dealing with the problems in Zimbabwe. Our record is consistent, unlike that of the Conservatives, who seem to worry only about black tyranny, not about white tyranny as well, even though that is where these problems arise.
The hon. Gentleman asked for specifics about the meeting due to take place this afternoon. My right hon. Friends the Foreign Secretary and the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport are due to meet the English cricket authorities, and we shall have to wait for the outcome of that meeting. The Government's position is clear. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday that he would prefer that the tour did not take place, but the Government cannot treat the English cricket authorities as though they were a Department of State. They must make their own decisions, and I know that the hon. Gentleman accepts that.
We all share a sense of frustration with the ICC, which I do not believe is properly discharging its responsibilities to international cricket. I am afraid that

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some of its statements today echo exactly the inconsistencies and prejudices evident 30 or 40 years ago among cricket authorities the world over in respect of apartheid. The sooner the ICC adopts a morally consistent position, the better.
The hon. Gentleman asked about security. I have seen a summary of the Security Commission's report, and we welcome its proposals in respect of the royal estate. A post of director of security for the royal households has been announced and put in place. As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary makes clear in a written statement today, a wide range of checks is being developed, and an annual plan will be agreed to ensure that security is improved. Of course, there is a read-across to the Palace of Westminster from that. That is why we have set up an independent investigation by the Security Service and the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis.
I gave the figures in respect of the number of passes that have been issued during the debate last month. The hon. Gentleman can check them for himself.
Finally, on the issue of votes at 16, the Electoral Commission recommended in a recent report that the voting age should not be reduced to 16. The Government have not had a chance to respond to that report, but we are holding a big conversation with people right across the country—
Mr. Forth: Oh, no!
Mr. Hain: The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues scoff at the big conversation because when they were in government they never had a conversation with any members of the public. That is why they were run out of office.
Janet Anderson: My right hon. Friend will be aware of concern on both sides of the House about the effect in practice of the revised sitting hours of this Chamber. He will also be aware that the responses to the recent questionnaire on the issue show a small overall majority for reverting to the previous times on Tuesdays. Can he assure us that we will have an early opportunity to debate the matter in the House?
Mr. Hain: As my hon. Friend knows, the Modernisation Committee will begin a review shortly into how to resolve the issue. I pay tribute to her efforts to try to find a consensus on the matter. As she knows, I have wanted to achieve agreement so that the House can move forward, instead of being split as we were when the original decision was taken As my hon. Friend fairly acknowledged, the Procedure Committee report shows a narrow majority in favour of changing back to a 10 pm finish on Tuesdays, but 200 Members did not register an opinion. If we can find a consensus through the Modernisation Committee review, I will put it to a vote in the House as soon as it is possible to do so.
Mr. Nigel Evans: Will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement next week on the managed closure of post offices? I bring his attention to early-day motion 1133, in the name of the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) and supported by other Lancashire Members, including myself.
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[That this House congratulates the Lancashire Evening Post in its campaign to save post offices from closure throughout Lancashire and recognises that the Lancashire Evening Post has received thousands of responses from its readers supporting the campaign; raises concern that Royal Mail are providing financial incentives to sub postmasters to leave, thereby allowing the Royal Mail to close post offices leaving local users with no service; and calls on the Royal Mail to be open and transparent in making a business case for closure ensuring that all interested parties are consulted and provided with all the facts in relation to profitability and use of individual branches before any decision to close is taken.]
Thirty-one Lancashire post offices are about to close, including three in my constituency—two in Clitheroe—and one in Ribchester. The motion also praises the campaign of the Lancashire Evening Post and thousands of its readers to keep the post offices open. Is it not insanity to pay post offices to close instead of paying for them to open? When will we see an end to this post office set-aside?
Mr. Hain: I understand the points that the hon. Gentleman raises about his constituency, and we have all had to deal with such problems, not only in the last seven years—or the last year or last few months—but for the last 20 years. We have seen a whole process of change which was partly brought about by people changing their shopping habits and not using their local post offices as much as we would like. The Government have been dealing with the problem. We have put extra money in to support the distribution of local post offices and we will continue to work on the problem.
Mrs. Alice Mahon: May I bring my right hon. Friend back to the subject of the possible deployment of troops in Iraq? The headlines in The Sun and The Times are specific. They claim that the troops will go out "to seize flashpoint city" and that the decision has already been made. That would be an extremely dangerous mission. Will my right hon. Friend deny that such a decision has been taken and, if he cannot, when can we have a statement? After all, we have a right to know before the Murdoch press.
Mr. Hain: My hon. Friend will know that similar press reports have appeared almost daily—or at least weekly—in recent months. Sometimes they have been accurate and sometimes they have not. I do not have anything to add to what I have just said and the Prime Minister made the position clear yesterday.
Sir George Young: Three months ago, when the Prime Minister appeared before the Liaison Committee, he agreed to review the rules under which civil servants give evidence to Select Committees—the so-called Osmotherly rules. When does the Leader of the House anticipate reporting progress on that review?
Mr. Hain: The Prime Minister is due to appear before the Liaison Committee in a few months' time and I should have thought that he would he questioned about that subject if it has not been progressed in the meantime.
Colin Burgon: I am one of the many hon. Members who enjoy showing constituents around the House. However, I have noticed lately that a key piece of our history is missing from the Royal Gallery—the death warrant of Charles I. That is one of the most important documents in the history of this House and of this nation, as a reminder of when our valiant predecessors put an over-mighty monarch firmly in his place.[Interruption.] I have no one in mind at the moment. Can the Leader of the House find out when that key document will return to the Royal Gallery?
Mr. Hain: My deputy mutters that the document is currently subject to scientific research. I have no idea what that means, but no doubt my hon. Friend's concern will have been noted by the House authorities and his constituents will be satisfied in future.
Rev. Martin Smyth: As we are currently sending more reservists out to Iraq—for example, some members of the Royal Irish Regiment will be going out—may I, too, press the Leader of the House for a debate on troop deployment? At the same time, we could examine the attitude of employers who have not played fair with reservists mobilised to serve their country.
Mr. Hain: If employers are not playing fair, that is an important issue because members of the Territorial Army do a valuable job and should be treated fairly. On troop deployment generally, and the role of the Royal Irish Regiment, the Ministry of Defence will have carefully noted what the hon. Gentleman said.
Mr. Colin Challen: May we have an early statement from the Foreign Secretary about the situation faced by British lorry drivers who are incarcerated in French prisons? When I last inquired, about 60 HGV drivers were being held in those prisons, including my constituent, Paul Watson, who has been locked up in Arras prison since last October and still does not know when he might go to trial. He has been refused bail on several occasions, and although I have applied for a permit to visit him it seems that the French are quite adept at losing such applications. Will the Foreign Secretary come to the House to explain what we are doing to secure proper treatment for British lorry drivers, many of whom, I believe, are innocent, so that our constituents are free to come home to their families?
Mr. Hain: I know that my hon. Friend has pursued that case with great diligence; I acknowledge that, and his constituent will be grateful. I am very surprised that the French authorities are apparently denying a British Member of Parliament, who is also a fellow citizen of the European Union, access to his constituent and I hope that that will change. In the meantime, the Foreign Office is providing full consular advice and my hon. Friend is free to raise the issue with the Foreign Secretary or his Ministers who will want to support my hon. Friend in whatever way they can.
Bob Spink: The well-informed Leader of the House will have seen the report in today's papers suggesting that the Government may be
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considering the development of more incinerators because they are said to be less dangerous than landfill. The campaigning newspaper, the Yellow Advertiser, is currently exposing landfill contamination on Two Tree Island in my constituency. May we have a debate on how we can increase recycling to meet the Government's recycling targets, which are likely to be missed? Recycling is the very best way forward.
Mr. Hain: I fully agree that recycling is the main solution to the problem. If we do not adopt a much more sensible response to waste disposal, we shall cover the entire landmass of Britain with landfill. That is why we are putting such emphasis on recycling and other innovative ways to dispose of waste.
Mr. Andrew Miller: When I first became an MP 12 years ago, I never thought that unemployment in my constituency would drop below 2 per cent. It has done so as a result of fantastic partnerships between the private sector, local government and central Government. Will my right hon. Friend arrange for a debate on the role of central Government in that area, especially in the context of programmes such as the new deal?
Mr. Hain: I shall certainly be happy to look at that request, not least because the Conservatives are making an attack on the new deal a principal part of their approach in the coming months. Indeed, the shadow Leader of the House has published a pamphlet attacking the new deal, despite the fact that 223 people in his constituency have (brained jobs through the new deal, only seven of which are subsidised. We want everybody to be given the chalice to work; about a million people are being helped by the new deal and, in the next election, I shall be happy to fight against the Conservative proposal to abolish the new deal and for the Government policy of full employment to give everybody hope under the new deal.
Pete Wishart: I support calls for a full debate in Government time on post office closures, if only so that we can examine whether it makes any sense to pay post offices to close rather than investing in them so that they can continue to make a contribution to the communities we serve.
Mr. Hain: The hon. Gentleman is free to apply for a debate at any time. As he knows, the matter has been regularly debated in the House and he has no doubt made a contribution to those debates.
Mr. David Chaytor: Following the historic events of last weekend, when the accession countries finally joined the European Union, can my right hon. Friend find time for a debate on the impact of accession? Would not that provide a useful opportunity for us to test out some of the more hysterical tabloid predictions about the number of east Europeans coming to Britain? It could also provide a useful background for debate about Europe in the run-up to the European elections on 10 June, as well as for the debate on the referendum on the constitution. Will my right hon. Friend find time for a debate about the EU in the near future?
Mr. Hain: The Prime Minister will make a statement after the European Council at the end of next month, but I should certainly welcome other opportunities, although I do not think I should start the European election campaign today in business questions. My hon. Friend's point about the accession or 10 countries to the EU is well made. Their accession will enlarge our zone of security and stability; it will re-unify the whole of Europe, after its savage division after the second world war and the cold war; it will improve environmental standards by ensuring that the new countries raise their environmental standards; and it will also provide extra opportunities for prosperity and jobs. That is the great prize of EU enlargement.
Dr. Julian Lewis: Does the Leader of the House realise that he gives the impression that he is dragging his feet on the question of the review of the sitting hours of the House when he talks about the narrowness of the majority in the Committee? Does he recall early-day motion 262, which was signed by 245 Members?
[That this House notes that the revised sitting hours and related arrangements have now been in place for 12 months; believes that there is now sufficient experience of the new arrangements to enable the House to judge what adjustments would be appropriate to enable the business of the House to be conducted more effectively; and calls for an urgent review of the reforms.]
The Government have made a U-turn on allowing people to vote on the European constitution, so how about allowing Members of the House to vote on their sitting hours?
Mr. Hain: There will be a vote on sitting hours.
Dr. Lewis: When?
Mr. Hain: Let me take the hon. Gentleman through the sequence of events. At the beginning of the year, I announced that the Modernisation Committee would conduct a review. In the meantime, the Procedure Committee had circulated a questionnaire to every Member and there was a large response to which I referred earlier. That response showed a very narrow division, not on reverting to the old hours on Wednesday—there was no real support for that—but on the Tuesday hours. The division was between those who wanted the hour of interruption to remain at 7 o'clock and those who wanted to move back to 10 o'clock. In the Modernisation Committee we need to reflect on the detail of the response to the Procedure Committee and, yes, at the end of that process the House will have a vote on its future sitting hours, as has always been promised. The current hours are only for the rest of this Parliament.
Mr. Martin Salter: The Leader of the House will be aware of early-day motion 583 signed by 168 Members on both sides of the House.
[That this House notes with regret the horrific murder of Jane Longhurst by Graham Coutts who had become an avid user of corrupting internet sites such as 'necrobabes', `death by asphyxia' and 'hanging bitches'; offers its 10 support to the family of Jane Longhurst in their call for
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action to he taken to close down these sites; calls on the Government to conduct a review of the Obscene Publications Acts of 1959 and 1964 and all other key legislation; and asks the Home Secretary to ensure better co-operation from the international law enforcement agencies to close down such internet sites, which are likely to incite people to do harm to others.]
It calls for action to restrict UK access to corrupting and depraved internet sites, following the horrific murder of Brighton schoolteacher, Jane Longhurst, who originally came from Reading. She was killed by an avid user of internet sites such as "Necrobabes" and "Death by asphyxia". The Home Secretary has already pledged to try to take action against such sites and to restrict access to them, but does not my right hon. Friend think that as there is wide support for action from Members on both sides of the House it is a suitable subject for debate on the Floor of the House?
Mr. Hain: Indeed. I know that the whole House shares my hon. Friend's absolute abhorrence at that obscenity and the way in which internet sites can promote such behaviour. That is why the Government have been working closely with the Internet Watch Foundation, internet companies, telecom operators and others to increase our ability to prevent children from accidentally accessing explicit adult material of that obscene kind. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend's campaign to ensure that we are constantly aware of the issue.
Mr. John Wilkinson: Can the Leader of the House find Government time to debate the endemic fraud and corruption in the EU—the organisation so much admired by him and his hon. Friends in the Government? The issue has been dramatically highlighted by the National Audit Office and by the failure of the European Parliament to do anything about it.
Mr. Hain: Fraud in the European Union is indeed a great concern. That is why the Government have ensured that we focus on fraud the whole time and why Commissioner Neil Kinnock, despite the criticisms of him, has been embarking on some of the most difficult work that any commissioner has had to undertake to try to reform the European Commission's practices and ensure that such inefficiencies and fraud are tackled head-on. That must be done, not only in the interests of all of us, but in those of a Europe of which we can be proud.
Mr. Harry Barnes: Statements and oral questions on Iraq are welcome and could well be extended, as suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mrs. Mahon), but they are surely not enough. We need a fully-fledged debate on Iraq, the situation in Falluja, what is occurring in the prisons and the two legs of the Government's argument on weapons of mass destruction and humanitarianism. Moreover, we need to debate practical suggestions about how we can get out of the current mess, and the role of the United Nations and the role of a free Iraqi labour movement are important things that could be outlined in that a debate.
Mr. Hain: As I have told my hon. Friend before, I agree about the importance of a free Iraqi labour movement—something that did not exist under Saddam Hussein, but that he and I want to take root in Iraq. As for a fully-fledged debate, my hon. Friend has the opportunity to apply for one at any time, but he cannot really suggest that we have not had many opportunities to discuss developments in Iraq.
Mr. Barnes: A full day.
Mr. Hain: I have noted what my hon. Friend says about a full day's debate. In respect of the United Nations, we are working for another Security Council resolution and the intention is to hand over responsibility for the governance of Iraq to an interim Iraqi authority from the end of next month. That is on course and we will continue to do everything that we can to support it.
Mr. Don Foster: I thank the Leader of the House for his robust comments on the proposed English cricket tour to Zimbabwe, but may I press him on the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) that there should be a debate, or at least a statement, in the House next week, following today's meeting of the Foreign Secretary and the Minister for Sport and Tourism with the England and Wales Cricket Board? Would not such a statement provide an opportunity for all parties in the House to join together to pressure the International Cricket Council to change its rules to allow the cancellation of such tours on the ground of moral issues, without fines being imposed?
Mr. Hain: I am at one with the hon. Gentleman on this. Undoubtedly, the villain of the piece at present is not just Robert Mugabe's despotic regime, but the way in which the ICC is turning a blind eye to that. I find that unacceptable, and it would be a good idea if we could explore—whether through a debate in the House or other means—how the focus of attention can be put on the ICC.
Mr. Lindsay Hoyle: Will my right hon. Friend consider a debate on the future of post office closures? The closures are being done differently from in the past. In fact, enticement, bribery and every other means are being used to encourage post offices to close when we believe that they are viable businesses. There is no transparency, the books are not made available to make a rational judgment and the evidence needed to make the judgment is concealed. That is not an appropriate way to close post offices.
The losers are the public. Generally, old people use post offices. Many of the post offices involved are surrounded by old people's bungalows and sheltered accommodation. Those people will continue to need post offices. They will continue to live in those homes, but post offices will be unavailable to them. I plead with my right hon. Friend to arrange an open debate, with the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry available to the House.
Mr. Hain: My hon. Friend makes some serious allegations—the Secretary of State will want to take note of them and respond to him—but I agree with him in this respect: the local post office in my own village in my constituency is a fulcrum for the village. Pensioners and others dependent on benefits use it particularly actively. Pensioners in a former mining constituency such as mine do not have cars and cannot get down the valley easily, so the post office is a vital community facility. He is absolutely right about that.
Mr. George Osborne: When will we debate the proposed referendum on an EU constitution? Although the Prime Minister could open such a debate, would it not be a good break with precedent to allow members of the Cabinet to speak in it and have their say—a say that they were denied around the Cabinet table? Perhaps the Leader of the House could respond to the debate, so that we could hear him eat his words before we go off and eat our dinner.
Mr. Hain: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I responded to a similar impudent point from the shadow Leader of the House a few weeks ago. This issue will be debated in due course, but how can we debate a referendum on a European constitutional treaty that has not yet even been finally negotiated, let alone agreed and signed? That is the point. He and the Conservative party decided that they opposed the draft constitutional treaty before it was even properly published and agreed in the European Convention, on which I represented the Government. They are still pressing the same position when the negotiations have not finished. Let us see what is negotiated and whether agreement can be reached, and then we will decide how to proceed.
Jim Knight: I am sure that the Leader of the House shares my concern about the levels of council tax. May we debate that important issue and particularly the effects—cuts in services or increases in council tax—if there were a two-year cash freeze on local government funding?
Mr. Hain: Of course, the consequences for council tax of a cash freeze on local government spending, which would cut local government funding by £2.4 billion, would be catastrophic. Council taxes would rise by 10 per cent. as a consequence of the spending plans promoted by the shadow Chancellor and the shadow Cabinet in the first two years of a Conservative Government. Local government spending would be cut by —2.4 billion, either savagely cutting services or sending council tax levels sky high. That is the prospect that awaits the people of Britain if they get a Conservative Government.
Dr. Andrew Murrison: Will the Leader of the House find time to hold a debate on the Environment Agency's proposed amendments to the substitute fuels protocol that will, by sleight of hand,

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allow waste materials to be rebadged as fuel and thus imported into this country for disposal at plants such as the Westbury cement works?
Mr. Hain: Obviously, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will want to take careful note of the hon. Gentleman's point.
Helen Jones: Will my right hon. Friend find time to debate the role played by police community support officers who make a valuable contribution to reducing crime and reassuring the population in my constituency? May we have an opportunity to debate both the possible expansion in the number of support officers and the effect that a £900 million cut in the Home Office and criminal justice budget would have on those people, whom we now have out on the streets reducing crime?
Mr. Hain: I would welcome an Opposition debate on that matter. My hon. Friend is right: it would be interesting to find out whether the Opposition could defend their policy of cutting Home Office expenditure by almost £1 billion, slashing the number of police officers and community support officers, who are vital to improving security in our communities and dealing with antisocial behaviour and the other intimidation that is visited upon senior citizens, especially. That is a question for the Opposition to answer in the coming election campaigns.
Mr. Henry Bellingham: Has the Leader of the House seen the reports in today's press that unscrupulous law firms are launching legal actions against British troops in Iraq? Will he make it categorically clear that no British troops, either in Iraq or any other theatre, will be subjected to claims under human rights legislation?
Mr. Hain: The Ministry of Defence is obviously very concerned about this matter. Indeed, the Government are concerned about it and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we will follow the points that he makes and the whole situation very carefully.
Julie Morgan: I am sure that my right hon. Friend is aware of the statement made yesterday by the Attorney-General, Lord Goldsmith, about progress on reviewing baby death convictions following the Angela Cannings judgment. What arrangements will my right hon. Friend make for that issue to be debated in the House when that review is completed? It is a matter of enormous concern for all parents, carers and paediatricians. I am told that many paediatricians are reluctant to become expert witnesses or take on cases where child abuse is suspected, which may leave children unprotected.
Mr. Hain: This is a very important matter and I acknowledge the close and expert interest that my hon. Friend has shown in child protection and children's rights. That is why I am sure that the Attorney-General's statement and the accompanying written ministerial statement will be particularly welcome to her.
Kevin Brennan: I thank the Leader of the House for the generous provision of three
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days' debate on the Pensions Bill on Report and Third Reading, but will he assure the House that, within that time, sufficient time will be given to debate all amendments relating to the 60,000 workers who have lost their pensions, including any amendment that may be tabled by Labour Members if the Government do not make their own announcement before that time?
Mr. Hain: It is partly because of the importance of the matter that sufficient time has been allowed, not just to debate the necessary technical amendments tabled by the Government but to address that issue. I assure my hon. Friend that, if an amendment tabled by Back Benchers is selected by you, Mr. Speaker, and if it is in order, there will be enough time to debate it, if, indeed, it is necessary to table such an amendment at all.
Mr. Gordon Prentice: Does my right hon. Friend agree that patronage is the curse of our age and that 46 new Members have entered Parliament by appointment, not election? What is happening with House of Lords reform and will it ever take place while peers in the other place have a right of veto and can overrule the decisions that we take in the elected House?
Mr. Hain: My hon. Friend will welcome the increased number of life peerages, which enables the Labour contingent in the House of Lords at least to close the gap with the Conservatives, who are still the largest party there, which makes their presence in the upper House disproportionate to their support in the country. As for House of Lords reform, the Government are addressing the issue and we are determined to advance reforms on the composition of the House of Lords, its powers and procedures.
Mr. Wayne David: I am pleased that Members on both sides of the House have welcomed the fact that the European Union has increased in size with the arrival of 10 new member countries. They will be aware that this week the President of Poland is making a state visit to this country and I am sure that we all welcome the fact that Poland has come back to its European home. May we have a debate in the House as soon as possible on the economic implications of future enlargement of the European Union for both Britain and the EU as presently constituted?
Mr. Hain: I join my hon. Friend, on behalf I am sure of the whole House in welcoming the state visit by the President of Poland, which was an important ally of ours in the second world war and has long been a friend of Britain's. My hon. Friend is one of the Members who have promoted ties with Poland. We value its entry into the European Union and I believe that it will be a strong ally of Britain in the EU's future development.
As for any future plans for the EU enlargement, my hon. Friend knows that Bulgaria and Romania are closing a number of chapters necessary for the conclusion of negotiations on their accession and other candidate countries are lining up, including Turkey, which I personally would like to see in the EU at some point. No doubt there will be opportunities to debate later enlargement.
David Taylor: In light of a planned lobby of Parliament by employees of Her Majesty's Prison Service and the national probation service, who wish to express their concerns about the national offender management service, would the Leader of the House care to pay tribute to the professionalism and commitment of those two groups of people and ask the Home Secretary to make a statement to the House to supply the organisational detail that is missing but necessary, provide assurances about resource levels and explain the delphic term "contestability", which seems to threaten employees and voluntary sector providers alike?
Mr. Hain: The Home Secretary will want to pay attention to the points made by my hon. Friend, but I happily join him in paying tribute to the role played by prison officers and probation officers. As for the latter, I often feel that they are the butt of attacks and criticisms, rather like social workers, but in fact they do an important job, which we are happy to acknowledge.

BILL PRESENTED
  BALANCE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION FOR UNCLAIMED ASSETS (ALLOCATION)
  Mr. Frank Field, supported by Mr. Jon Owen Jones, Mr. Derek Wyatt, Kevin Brennan, Mr. David Willetts, Mr. Nigel Waterson, Mr. Steve Webb, Annabelle Ewing, Sandra Osborne, The Rev. Martin Smyth, Mr. Jeffrey M. Donaldson and Adam Price, presented a Bill to make provision about the allocation of unclaimed assets secured by the Balance Charitable Foundation for Unclaimed Assets: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time on 18 June, and to be printed. [Bill 104].

  Points of Order
  1.14 pm
  Mr. Nicholas Soames: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will have heard the concerns expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) and colleagues on both sides of the House about the possible deployment of additional troops to Iraq. You will also have heard the thoroughly casual and dismal reply by the Leader of the House to the serious point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire. It is plain that the newspapers, particularly The Times and The Sun, have already been briefed that additional troops are to go to Iraq, and we know that a reconnaissance force is already there to assess the state of play in the area. Given your own very strong views, often rightly pronounced in the House, that statements should be made in the House before they are released to the press, if a decision has been made in principle—we believe that it has been to consider a deployment, the House of Commons urgently requires the Government to come and explain their policy, and give the House the opportunity to debate this serious question, which involves sending up to 4,000 troops into harm's way.
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is quite right that the matter was raised by the shadow Leader of the House. With regard to comments in the press, as he knows, sometimes they can be inaccurate, and therefore I do not wish to make any statement on that. However—and I hope that note is taken of this—if there is any significant increase in Army personnel going into an area of danger, I would want the House to know about it.
  Mr. Paul Tyler: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not a great discourtesy to the armed forces and their families that no attempt has been made to clarify the accuracy of the reports in the papers today or to make sure that we now have a statement on the facts?
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman knows my difficulties. I cannot be drawn into these arguments, and I think that I have made the point on behalf of the House.
  Mr. Patrick McLoughlin: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I take you back to Question Time and draw your attention to Question 3, when a number of Opposition Members rose but you were unable to call them? I make no argument about that whatsoever. However, after Question 5, the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Nigel Griffiths), a junior Minister in the Department of Trade and Industry, commented that no Opposition Member had risen to ask a question when, in fact, you had called four Government Members to ask a question. Could you inform Ministers that it is you who decides who is called in questions? Unfortunately, the Opposition do not have much say in whom you call.
  Mr. Speaker: I think that Ministers know that, but from time to time they take some liberties.

Orders of the Day

  Armed Forces (Pensions and Compensation) Bill
  As amended in the Standing Committee, considered.
  [Relevant documents: First Report from the Defence Committee, Session 2003—04, HC 96, on Armed Forces Pensions and Compensation, and the Government's response thereto, Cm 6109.]

  Armed Forces (Pensions and Compensation) Bill
    New Clause 1

      RESERVISTS PERSONAL PENSION PLANS
      The Secretary of State may by regulation enable the Armed Forces Pension Scheme to make contributions to personal pension plans owned by members of the Reserve Forces.'.— [Mr. Brazier.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      1.18 pm
      Mr. Julian Brazier: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      I declare an interest, Mr. Speaker, as I served for 13 years in the Territorial Army, as you yourself did. Indeed, as background to our debate on pensions, I might say that my grandfather served throughout both world wars as a reservist officer. His health was ruined as a result and, although he was decorated for gallantry, he never received a pension of any kind. The proposal in new clause 1 does not relate to the past, but aims to address an injustice that exists today.
      In connection with the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames), Operation Telic involved the largest deployment of reservists since the war, so this is a good time to focus on the issue. They constituted a huge proportion of the overall personnel, with 5,000 out of a nominal total of 45,000 reservists—only 35,000, however, were trained and available for service—being deployed. Even today, the Library tells me, we have 989 reservists in Iraq, 230 in Afghanistan and about 300 in the Balkans. Recently, the first military cross since 1945 was awarded to a territorial.
      Nearly all those are people who have civilian jobs. They give of their time during peacetime and for many years serve at annual camps, weekends and evenings in the Territorial Army and its counterparts in the other two services. There is no pension provision for reservists, however many years they serve, except in one respect. Those who are called up for full-time service can have payments made into an employer's pension fund, if they have an employer. If they happen to be self-employed—a large and important category of reservists—there is no provision. The new clause seeks to address that, for two reasons.
      First, the current arrangements are grossly discriminatory against self-employed people; why, I cannot imagine. I served in three different TA units and self-employed people played a vital role in all of them. As call-outs become more burdensome and onerous, and as employers become reluctant to allow employees to serve in the reserve forces, the proportion of self-employed people, if they can be found and are able and
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      willing, may have to rise. It is very unfair that such discrimination exists.
      The second point relates to all reservists. No matter how long they serve, there is an absolute lack of provision for their general service outside full-time deployments. I was one of those who argued strongly and many times in the House for more use to be made of reservists, preferably in formed units. I welcome the fact that just before the last Conservative Government fell, we passed the Reserve Forces Act 1996 and started the process of making more use of reservists. I did not envisage at that stage that there would be huge cuts in the number of reservists and an enormous increase in the scale of work required of them. That is what happened.
      When we consider pensions for those who are not on full-time service, it is important to recognise the sacrifices that they make. Overtime opportunities are greatly reduced if one is spending weekends away and spending training evenings as a reservist. Even in the old days, career opportunities were somewhat jeopardised by reserve service. I well remember conversations in which people said, "We really wanted so-and-so to take such-and-such a job, but he finally felt unable to do so because it would have meant giving up a promotion, as the job is so busy." Today, with the prospect of being called out in peacetime for periods of as long as six or even nine months, perhaps as often as once in every three or four years, the reduction in people's earning prospects, and consequently in their eventual pension prospects, is considerable. That is not reflected at all, outside the periods of full-time service.
      I shall not detain the House with a long argument because that would not strengthen the case. However, it might be for the convenience of the House if I explained in a few sentences how the national guard scheme works. It is a good scheme and a cheap one. Bearing it in mind that reservists provide defence on the cheap, much of it funded by their employers—or their own business where they are self-employed—it is a scheme that the Government would do well to consider. Such a scheme is envisaged by new clause 1.
      The scheme is governed by three simple rules. First, leaving aside the full-time deployments, there is no contribution for anyone who serves fewer than 20 years, so the scheme applies only to a small proportion, but it applies to those people who are the very backbone of every unit—the company commander, the company sergeant-major and the long-serving non-commissioned officer. In America, when such people have done 12 or 13 years and feel that they have had enough, they realise that in another six or seven years they will be eligible for a pension. The scheme affects a fairly small class of people, but a critical one for maintaining unit quality. Secondly, one does not receive a pension at the age where one's regular counterpart would. The pension starts at state retirement age, which, from memory, is 67 in America, so the provision is relatively cheap. Thirdly, it is entirely related to the amount of time spent serving.
      At a time when the defence budget is stretched, I know that there is no huge willingness to consider spending extra money on anything, but when the burden is being disproportionately borne by members of the

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      reserve forces, the very small sums that the scheme would cost would be good value for money and would represent justice.
      The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Ivor Caplin):May I take the hon. Gentleman back to the US system that he was explaining to the House? For comparative purposes, will he tell us about other pension provision? For instance, is there a state pension provision across the United States that national guard members would receive as well?
      Mr. Brazier: The Minister knows that pension arrangements in America are extremely complicated, with variations between states. The crucial issue is the return that reservists get from giving up time to do reserve service, which other civilians who do not give up time to do reserve service do not get. What pension return are reservists getting? In the national guard, the US army reserve or its counterparts in the other services, the small proportion of people who are the backbone of the organisation get the benefit if they do more than 20 years, and those who choose not to sacrifice their time and make the other sacrifices involved do not get it.
      Angus Robertson: The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case, which I am sure he has also found is popular among people in the Territorial Army and reserves more generally. They think it would be a fair way to go. Is he aware not only that such a scheme exists in the United States, but that Canada has been developing a similar scheme over recent years? Perhaps the Ministry of Defence could look at that for inspiration.
      Mr. Brazier: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is more up to date on the situation in Canada than I am. I know that the Canadians were evaluating a scheme, but I do not know how much progress has been made. I can say, however, that, as the House knows, the turnover figures, or the wastage rates, which are a significant measure of the state of a unit, in all our counterpart English-speaking countries—America, Canada, Australia and, I believe, New Zealand—are much lower than those for the British reserve forces. That should concern us.
      There are two separate injustices that the clause seeks to address. The first is the lack of a pension to cover the full service of a long-serving reservist. The second is the immediate crying need to sort out the discrimination against the self-employed. I urge the House and the Government to support new clause 1.
      Mr. Colin Breed: As there are currently reservists in theatre, it is right that we should think about their future welfare and the benefits that we provide for them. In Committee, the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) explained in greater detail why we should do so. We should look after reservists for the right reasons, not because other countries may be introducing their own schemes. We should properly address the discrimination issue and find a means of reflecting in pension terms the service
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      that they have given. The principle of paying a contribution to reservists who receive an occupational pension has already been established, so the Government cannot argue against it.
      1.30 pm
      On that basis, why should we not pay those who have personal pension plans? In Committee, the Minister explained that a reservist averages about 30 days' service a year, so the pension would be very small. However, that is an argument in favour of new clause 1, because extending the scheme would have little effect on the overall cost—I understand the cost-neutrality problem. The change would cost a small amount and affect relatively few people, so finance should not be an issue.
      We have agreed the principle and that extending the scheme will not cost very much, so why are the Government making such a great fuss? The hon. Member for Canterbury suggests an elegant solution to enable the Government to address discrimination and recognise the valuable service that reservists give, and it would hardly register as a blip in the budgetary process.
      Mr. Mike Hancock: I am delighted by the new clause moved by the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier), but I was disappointed by the Minister, who sought to tarnish it by criticising the system in America and suggesting that people gain an advantage by having two pensions. The issue is about fairness to people in the reserve forces, who give their time and, in some instances, their lives or their well-being on behalf of their country, and new clause 1 allows this House and the nation as whole to recognise that commitment.
      Mr. Caplin: As the hon. Gentleman is a member of the Defence Committee, he did not participate in Standing Committee, where hon. Members were able, free and willing to ask questions about different points as we debated the issues. I intervened on the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) to raise an interesting point about the US scheme, and I cannot see anything wrong with that.
      Mr. Hancock: The point would be relevant only if the Minister provided evidence that people in the reserve forces in the United States can claim other benefits. The US system is a good example, because it works and offers reserve forces a pension scheme, and it could easily be adapted and made available to reserve forces in this country. The point that many reserve service personnel in the United States probably do not have other pension facilities is valid, but it does not relate to this issue, which concerns fairness to our reservists.
      Mr. Brazier: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. Pensions paid to members of the armed forces and, indeed, other state sector occupational funds are not welfare payments; they are a reward for service.
      Mr. Hancock: The hon. Gentleman is dead right. The issue concerns the recognition of those individuals' commitment to the nation. New clause 1 will not break the MOD bank, and it is a way to honour reservists and recognise their dedication.

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      During the past year, I have talked to many people who have returned from active service in the Territorial Army and other reserve forces in Iraq, many of whom have been on long deployments for the third time in three years. Reservists who have served on three separate deployments are not unusual, and many of them return to face difficult employment situations, which is a point that the Minister has recognised.
      New clause 1 is a major step in the right direction—it is a small financial step, but it is a big step in honouring a debt that we should have considered long ago. I hope that the House is inclined to support it unanimously, and if the Government were to agree to it, it would mark their commitment to our reserve forces.
      Mr. Caplin: I can safely say that unanimity will not be achieved on new clause 1.
      I pay tribute, as I have on a number of occasions, to the work of all our reserve forces, whether they are deployed in Iraq, the Balkans or Afghanistan. The hon. Member for Canterbury was good enough to acknowledge that we have made changes to reserve forces during the past few months to recognise their greater importance. I told the Standing Committee the news about the Duke of Westminster a couple of weeks before the London Gazette announced it, but not to worry—I suppose that was my privilege in that situation.
      Since we debated the issue in Standing Committee, I have met a number of reservists in Basra. As I expected, they are a fully committed and very determined group of men and women, and they are dedicated to Britain's cause in south-east Iraq. They are particularly committed to the reconstruction of Iraq and to their work with the local Iraqi community, which is testament to their skills. Many members of the reserve forces, which are doing a superb job in Iraq, are becoming increasingly frustrated at the lack of attention shown by the newspapers and television to their work developing water stations and sewers and helping schools and hospitals. Owing to the work of all our British troops, including our reserve forces, the public infrastructure of south-east Iraq differs significantly from its condition 18 months ago.
      The hon. Member for Canterbury began the debate by discussing the current size of our reserve forces, and he does not see the Reserve Forces Act 1996 as a reason to reduce numbers. If we go back 10 years to 1994, however, the Territorial Army contained about 100,000 people.
      Mr. Brazier: No it did not.
      Mr. Caplin: It was very large, but it was seldom deployed or deployable. Today, the TA contains some 40,000 people and is deployable, which is something that Government and Opposition Members welcomed in an excellent Adjournment debate on the issue in Westminster Hall. The capability of the TA and the reserve forces in general is more significant today because they are more likely to be deployed.
      Mr. Brazier: I am listening to the Minister carefully. After the TA was cut by about one third, the Government announced that it was more deployable,
      1514
      and it has been deployed more often. Apart from the introduction of the mobilisation centre, which was announced by the previous Conservative Government, can he mention one single change that has made the reserve forces more deployable? More reservists are being deployed, but the resources to train them for deployment have been reduced.
      Mr. Caplin: I do not accept the basis of the hon. Gentleman's question. I went to Chilwell to speak to reservists as they were mobilised and found that the system is effective. I have talked to reservists in both Chilwell and Iraq, and they welcome the training and development that is part of the mobilisation process.
      I make those points about deployment because it determines the pension issue. The House will not take a unanimous view on new clause 1 because, as the hon. Gentleman knows, voluntary reserve service, such as weekend training and annual camp in the TA, is not pensionable under the armed forces pension scheme. Service is pensionable when people are deployed. I entirely accept the point that the hon. Member for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Hancock) made about fairness to those who are deployed in Iraq or Afghanistan. Under the Reserve Forces Act 1996, we do, can and will use the power to make pensionable payments for those people, because they are deployed, or mobilised, and therefore acting in theatre.
      Mr. Hancock: The Minister makes an interesting point, which he has obviously researched. Will he give details of how many people over the past three years have been compensated in the way that he describes?
      Mr. Caplin: I cannot do so today, but I look forward to the parliamentary question that will naturally follow.
      When the reservist is mobilised, he or she can ask the Ministry to make pension contributions to his or her civilian pension plan. That is how the 1996 Act works. New clause 1 is unnecessary, because we already have that power to make payments to civilian pensions.
      I cannot tell the House how much it would cost to extend the scheme as the new clause proposes. It was suggested that it would not cost a lot, although we were not given any figures—that would have been interesting. I have a feeling that such non-mobilised reserve service pension arrangements would end up costing millions of pounds, but we can certainly look into the potential costs.
      I want to draw some differences between those who are employed and those who are self-employed. Those who are employed are protected under the safeguards in the Protection of Employment Act 1977, which were enhanced by the Reserve Forces Act 1996. I accept that the situation is slightly different for self-employed people. As hon. Members will know from the debate in Westminster Hall, this is one of the areas to be considered in the review that I am undertaking with regard to statutory instrument 309, which will take account of the differences between employed and self-employed status. I explained the timetable for the review process, and I hope in next week's debate to be able to say more about where it stands and to give hon.

      1515
      Members clearer time lines. [Interruption.] I can see the hon. Member for Canterbury edging towards the front of his seat.
      Mr. Brazier: I thought that the Minister was about to sit down.
      Mr. Caplin: I should like to make a couple more points first.
      The new clause would add nothing to the powers under the Reserve Forces Act, which allows us to make such contributions. The Bill ensures that reservists' arrangements will continue to be properly governed by the 1996 Act when we move to the new armed forces pension scheme. Two schemes will run, and the 1996 Act will be relevant to both. The powers that we have in those schemes will ensure that people are not out of pocket in terms of their pensions. That is because, as the hon. Member for Portsmouth, South said, they are doing a crucial job for our country, whether in Iraq, the Balkans or Afghanistan. If the new clause is pressed, I shall ask my hon. Friends to resist it.
      Mr. Brazier: I hope that it is in order, Madam Deputy Speaker, for me to say that when I moved the new clause I did not explain that my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne), who has just come back from the Gulf, was unable to move it because he is at his father-in-law's funeral. He asked me to pass on his apologies to the House.
      Although I am not persuaded by the Minister's arguments, I acknowledge that he made two helpful commitments: that the Government will consider the whole issue of the way in which the self-employed are looked after; and that he is willing to look into how much it would cost to introduce a wider scheme. It would perhaps be uncharitable to remind him that he still owes me a letter, because he promised to write to me about the points that I raised on unit structures during the Westminster Hall debate.
      On the basis that we have those two pledges, I am happy to withdraw the motion.
      1.45 pm
      Mr. Breed: In view of what the Minister said about next week's debate, it would be extremely helpful if we could have by then some very rough figures on costs. I am sure that the actuaries could produce something in time.
      Mr. Caplin: Perhaps I should clarify the commitment that I gave. I did not say that I would provide figures on the proposed pension arrangements; I said that I would update the House on our review of statutory instrument 309 and reserve forces generally, which I detailed in the Adjournment debate in Westminster Hall four or five weeks ago. Nice try, though.
      Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I must now put the Question. I am afraid that we have had speeches after the withdrawal of the new clause. I must now put the Question but, of course, Members may decide not to vote on it.
      Question put and negatived.

    New Clause 2

      ARMED FORCES PAY REVIEW BODY
      '(1) The Armed Forces Pay Review Body (the "Review Body") shall monitor the extent to which the scheme meets the recruitment and retention needs of the Armed Forces.

      (2) The Review Body shall publish its observations in a supplement to the following annual report and the Secretary of State shall publish his response to these observations.

      (3) The Secretary of State shall consult the Review Body in advance of any variations in the Schemes which he is minded to make.

      (4) Any person (including serving members of the Armed Forces) or organisations concerned with the working of the Schemes or about Legacy Issues covered by existing schemes shall make such representations in writing (and in confidence if appropriate) to the Review Body in summary form in the first instance and the Review Body may, at its discretion, invite further representations on the matter in such form as it may prescribe, but the Review Body shall not be obliged by this provision to look into individual cases.

      (5) The Review Body shall set out the arrangements to apply to servicemen and women who elect to transfer to a new Armed Forces Pension and Compensation Scheme.

      (6) Before the introduction of any new scheme the Secretary of State shall submit to the Review Body the mortality and longevity assumptions upon which such scheme is based.

      (7) The Review Body shall keep the Schemes and Legacy Issues under regular review and shall report annually to the Secretary of State and may so report more frequently if they believe that to be necessary.

      (8) The Secretary of State shall cause any report to him by the Review Body to be published if the Review Body so requests.

      (9) The Review Body may make to the Secretary of State recommendations for variations in the Schemes.

      (10) The Secretary of State may, at his discretion, reject, vary or accept and apply recommendations by the Review Body.

      (11) If a recommendation is made under subsection (10), the Secretary of State shall make a written statement to Parliament setting out—

      (a) the Recommendation;

      (b) the Review Body's reasons for making the recommendation;

      (c) the Secretary of State's decision in relation to the recommendation;

      (d) the reason for the decision.

      (12) A legacy issue shall be defined as an historical anomaly in provisions of Armed Forces Pension Schemes causing inequitable treatment of certain clearly defined groups.'.—[Mr. Gerald Howarth.]

      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Mr. Gerald Howarth: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      We had a series of very successful discussions in Committee. Although we were hampered in certain respects, and there were several fundamental disagreements, I think that the Minister will agree that we were able to deal with the issues in a courteous and civilised fashion. Conservative Members' criticisms of the Government—I suspect that their Back Benchers may have some, too—should not be misinterpreted. We are saying not that the Government are not supportive

      1517
      of our armed forces or careless with their lives and conditions, but merely that they could be doing better.
      I pay renewed tribute to the Select Committee on Defence for the extensive work that it—or, if I may say so, we—carried out in examining these complex matters of pensions and compensation. One of its chief complaints was that the Bill is an enabling Bill. It contains virtually nothing save an unfettered and unlimited power for the Secretary of State to draw up such schemes as he thinks appropriate. We have only the possibility of a one-and-a-half-hour debate to consider and scrutinise schemes that are very extensive in their effect on the armed forces and detailed in the way in which they will affect their lives.
      A second criticism was the lack of much of the detail of the schemes. No details about the early departure scheme were provided on Second Reading and were tabled only in Committee. I have outlined the two principal criticisms that the Select Committee on Defence made, and it is important to revisit some issues, not simply to rehearse earlier arguments but to give other hon. Members an opportunity to have their say.
      The pension and compensation schemes have been subject to scant parliamentary scrutiny. I remind the Under-Secretary that, in the 2001–02 Session, 1,468 secondary legislation measures were tabled but only three were considered on the Floor of the House and we voted on only one. Last Session, there were no debates in the Chamber on secondary legislation. We must also hear it in mind that secondary legislation is not amendable. The Bill contains nothing about the schemes, which will have a huge impact on the lives of our servicemen and women. In Committee, we tabled amendments to include at least some of the main principles in the Bill.
      Mr. Caplin: I, too, do not want to repeat all the points made in Standing Committee, but perhaps we can make the ground rules clear. We are considering a new scheme for members of our armed services on or after 6 April 2005. It is not directly relevant to those who are currently serving unless they choose to transfer to the new scheme.
      Mr. Howarth: That is a poor start by the Under-Secretary. We know that the new scheme that comes into effect next year will be mandatory for those who join on 6 April or thereafter, if the Bill reaches the statute book—perhaps that is a big assumption. However, the Under-Secretary glided over a fundamental issue, which I shall tackle shortly. Those who serve today and continue to serve beyond 6 April next year will face a choice. He accepted but brushed over that. They will have to choose whether to stay in the existing scheme or to join the new scheme. I leave aside compensation, about which there will be no such choice. However, it exists for pensions and it will affect servicemen and women and their families for the rest of their lives. The fact that there is nothing in the Bill about that makes it difficult for us to scrutinise the matter as we would have wished.
      Another complaint that we made was that, unlike members of other public services such as the fire or police services, Her Majesty's armed forces had no
      1518
      representative body to speak up for them. We therefore called in Committee for independent oversight to be given to a body of, for example, representative trustees. The Under-Secretary rightly pointed out that an unfunded scheme cannot have trustees, and we accepted that. We welcome the fact that, last Friday, the Under-Secretary announced that he had considered the representations that we made in Committee. To be fair, there was concern in all parties in Committee about the lack of independent oversight of the armed forces pension scheme.
      We are pleased that the Under-Secretary listened to our arguments but his announcement did not go far enough. We have tabled the new clause to include in the Bill an issue that the Government acknowledge to be important, and to add other matters on which the Under-Secretary's announcement did not go far enough. We welcome the fact that oversight will be given to the Armed Forces Pay Review Body. As I said in Committee, that organisation has worked well and is respected by everyone. Given that we all believe that our armed forces need to have confidence in the oversight of the pension scheme, they will be encouraged to know that the remit has been given to the Armed Forces Pay Review Body.
      However, the review body's role in externally validating, as the Under-Secretary describes it, will be done
      "in the context of their quinquennial valuation of the AFPS". — [Official Report, 30 April 2004; Vol. 420, c. 65WS.]
      We are worried that we have no detailed statement of the exact powers that will be given to the Armed Forces Pay Review Body. Will it be limited to considering pension issues every five years, as the comment about the quinquennial review suggests? Can it maintain—as we believe that it should—a watching brief, and report as and when it considers that to be appropriate? We believe that that is a much better way of granting power to the review body.
      If members of the armed forces knew that the matter would be considered not only every five years, but as and when those highly professional and splendid people who make up the Armed Forces Pay Review Body felt that the Government should take action or at least investigate a matter, that would have the added advantage of further consolidating confidence. I hope that the Under-Secretary will tell us how he envisages the pay review body's remit being effected.
      Why will the Armed Forces Pay Review Body be constrained in making its views public until the following year's annual report is published? There may be a good reason for that, but if the body discovers something about pensions that should be drawn to the attention of the armed forces or to that of the House, it should be able to do so and not be constrained. If it looks into a matter and finds a cause for concern, it should not have to wait until the following year to publish its anxieties. That is an unacceptable limitation. I reiterate that there may be a good reason for that, but we need to know why the Under-Secretary has chosen that route.
      Mr. Caplin: Perhaps I can help. Last week, I announced a quinquennial review of the new armed forces pension scheme. That would not prevent the Armed Forces Pay Review Body from commenting on pensions in relation to recruitment and retention of current armed forces staff.
      Mr. Howarth: That takes us a little further forward. If I understand the Under-Secretary correctly, he proposes to give the Armed Forces Pay Review Body a statutory remit whereby it must conduct a review every five years but will not be constrained from making a report to the Secretary of State or, as I would hope, to Parliament, if something arises in the meantime. Perhaps the Under-Secretary will confirm whether I am right.
      Mr. Caplin: The Armed Forces Pay Review Body reports to the Prime Minister. It is not in the Ministry of Defence in that respect. I am clear that it can consider all the issues that relate to recruitment, retention and pay. It makes the appropriate reports to the Prime Minister and we announce them to the House in a statement. Those terms of reference are unchanged. I propose that the body should undertake the additional work of examining every five years the workings of the new pension scheme. I shall say more about that shortly, but I hope that I have cleared the matter up.
      2 pm
      Mr. Howarth: I take encouragement from the last part of the Minister's remarks, because one of the issues that will become apparent—it is not apparent now—is just how successful some of the new measures will be in retaining the servicemen and women whom we want and need to retain in our armed forces. None of us here today, not even the Minister, can say with any certainty that the measures will have the desired effect in that respect. I therefore welcome the fact that there will be a requirement to review every five years, but it seems, from what the Minister has said, that there will be an opportunity for the review body to make known concerns as and when they arise, rather than being limited to doing so every five years. I do not want to be churlish: I welcome that.
      Given the importance of this issue, however, we feel that the new clause ought to be in the Bill. That would help the Government, because it would give them a clear framework within which to operate. We have included a number of other issues in the new clause that we felt ought to be addressed and to be given to the Armed Forces Pay Review Body as specific remits. Perhaps I can just go through some of them.
      New clause 2(5) would require the pay review body to
      "set out the arrangements to apply to servicemen and women who elect to transfer to a new Armed Forces Pension and Compensation Scheme."
      As I have just pointed out to the Minister, this involves serious issues that must be addressed by every serviceman and woman who is serving in the armed forces next April—issues that are likely to affect them and their families until the end of their days. We raised this matter in Committee.
      1520
      The Minister was present at our meeting yesterday with some of those who feel that the scheme has not moved on to help them sufficiently. Some of those people are in their 80s and 90s, and are living with a scheme that was established in the past. Whether they elect to stay in the existing scheme or move to the new one next year will be a matter of concern to them and to their families, and I envisage a great deal of debate on the issue in married quarters up and down the land, and certainly in my constituency of Aldershot.
      In Committee, when we called on the Minister to make advice available to our servicemen and women, he said that the Ministry of Defence could not act as a financial adviser, and nor, by implication, could any member of the chain of command. Given the way in which the oversight of our financial services is administered today, I quite understand the elephant trap that might lie ahead if the Minister or those under his command were to give such financial advice.
      The Minister helpfully provided us with a leaflet, however. I am not sure whether other hon. Members have seen it, but it is a little purple leaflet representing a tri-service view of these matters, entitled "The New Armed Forces Pension & Compensation Schemes". It sets out some of the key conditions and tells people:
      "You can remain on the current scheme",
      and
      "You will get the opportunity to choose whether to stay where you are or transfer to the new pension scheme. You do not have to decide now."
      Well, they are going to have to decide in due course, and these are momentous decisions. The leaflet says:
      "Where can I find out more?"
      and advises people, in the modern usage, to go to the MOD's website. I have managed to master the necessary technology to have a look at the website, and it does give some comparative examples of conditions under the existing scheme and what will apply under the new one. I have to say, however, that it is all pretty basic.
      The leaflet goes on:
      "If you have any general questions on the schemes, address them to your commanding officer or your local administration office in the first instance."
      I suspect that the Minister has already advised those people not to offer anything that might constitute individual advice to individual soldiers, sailors or airmen, and to ensure that their remarks are of a very generalised nature. The leaflet continues:
      "You can email general questions to the pensions team".
      I have not done that yet, but I might give it a try. Here is the rub, however. The last sentence says:
      "They will not be able to respond individually".
      That is the issue. Our armed servicemen and women will not be able to look to their employer for individual advice.
      Mr. Hancock: The hon. Gentleman has been uncharacteristically generous to the Government in not repeating the condemnation of the Select Committee, on which he and I served, regarding this whole process. The Committee made it clear that the consultation on the process was "uninformative" and that the MOD had failed to grasp the importance of the issue to the service personnel involved. That leaflet is still vague in the

      1521
      extreme, and it still does not properly open the door for those issues to be discussed fairly with the individuals concerned. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, once again, the Ministry of Defence has failed miserably to put its case properly to the people it serves?
      Mr. Howarth: The hon. Gentleman and I both still serve on the Defence Committee, and we did indeed make those forceful criticisms. In fairness, however, this leaflet came out after the Committee's report was published.
      Mr. Caplin indicated dissent.
      Mr. HowarthThe Minister shakes his head, but I do not think that any of us knew that the leaflets were in circulation until we asked, in Committee, what advice was being given. At that point, the Minister stood up and told us that the Ministry had put out a little leaflet. The following day, he came armed with a supply of them so that we should know exactly what was being given to our servicemen and women to enable them to make up their minds. However, as the hon. Member for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Hancock) said. it is pretty generalised stuff, and I return to my point that the leaflet says that the pension team will not be able to respond individually.
      In Committee, the Minister said that
      "as part of our preparations for the transition, we are obviously considering how to provide and facilitate access to independent financial advice. That is the responsibility of a good employer, which is what the Ministry is."—[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 10 February 2004; c. 131.]
      We concur with that, but so far, I see no evidence that any details of those preparations have been vouchsafed to us. Certainly, I have been given no new information that extends beyond this little leaflet. It is incumbent on the Minister to tell the House how the preparations for the transition are going, and whether he has come to any conclusion on how to provide and facilitate access to independent financial advice. That is the issue, and we and those whom we represent need an answer. The Minister is driving this measure through—I shall be contrary here and say that he has both gripped it and rushed it through. but I am in opposition and I am entitled to say that—and he is pressing ahead with the April 2005 deadline. We need to know what detailed provision he has made to facilitate access to independent financial advice.
      The Minister also told us that plans were under way to provide comparative individual benefit statements to enable servicemen and women to make an informed decision. Fearful as we all are of the capacity of government to cope with any new IT system, he ought to tell us what progress has been made in establishing the system necessary for the provision of that information. He was very confident in Committee that this could be done, so we would like to know that the system will be up and running and that it will provide what is needed to supply the individual benefit statements.
      Subsection (6) refers to the mortality and longevity assumptions, which underpin much of the complex debate on the affordability of the pension scheme. On
      1522
      Second Reading, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) said:
      "During interminable debate on this issue, the Ministry of Defence has effectively moved the goalposts by changing the actuarial assumptions on which everything is based. As the Defence Committee reported, the expected cost of the existing scheme to the Ministry in 30 to 40 years' time has been recalculated from 22. per cent. to 24.5 per cent. of pensionable salary. The new scheme will reduce the estimated cost to 22 per cent. However, if the original actuarial assumptions were applied to the new scheme, it would cost 20.3 per cent. of pensionable salary, so the total value of the new scheme is 1.7 per cent. less than the value of the current scheme".
      As my hon. Friend went on to say, that
      "flatly contradicts the Government's claim that any savings in one area"
      would go to
      "enhance benefits elsewhere."—[Official Report, 22 January 2004; Vol. 416, c. 1500.]
      However, he might regard the Chancellor of the Exchequer as a benefit.
      Given the capacity of Government to manage—that is the word I use—the figures, it is essential that there is some independent scrutiny of how a scheme as important as this is arrived at. The mortality and longevity assumptions on which it is based should be in the Bill, hence proposed subsection (6).
      Subsection (7) would provide for the Armed Forces Pay Review Body to keep under review the legacy issues, which are defined in subsection (12). The Minister and all of us are aware of the great concerns out there, particularly among those who retired some time ago or their widows, about the feeling that there are issues that have never been addressed, either by this Government or by previous Conservative Governments. Therefore, it would be helpful if we provided for the AFPRB to have a specific remit to keep those legacy issues under review.
      That would help us and the Minister. Indeed, it would help me when we swap places after the next election, as we would be able to have some independent assessment. [Interruption.] My hon. Friends say that the Minister will not be here then. Well, Brighton and Hove Albion are doing pretty badly at the moment, so he may follow suit. It would help Ministers of whatever description if some well-regarded, well-respected and professional organisation could have a look at issues that have been of concern to a number of our constituents over a great many years.
      Subsection (9) states:
      "The Review Body may make to the Secretary of State recommendations for variations in the Schemes."
      That would enable the AFPRB to keep the compensation scheme under review, as well as the pension scheme. It is important to recognise that we are dealing with two schemes—one relating to pensions, the other to compensation. Again, the proposal would assist the Minister, as the compensation scheme could be kept under review. I suspect that the way in which he proposes to change that scheme—I will come on to that when we discuss another new clause—is likely to cause problems for him and his successors. Therefore, giving the AFPRB a remit there would be valuable.

      1523
      I hope that I have made a compelling case as to why we should include provisions on the review body. I acknowledge that the Minister has listened to some of the arguments and moved a long way to meeting our concerns. I hope that he goes the extra mile, as that would please us all.
      2.15 pm
      Rachel Squire: I welcome the fact that the new clause has been tabled and I welcome its contents, which raise a number of issues. I also welcome last week's written statement by the Minister on the Armed Forces Pay Review Body, which shows that he has indeed taken careful note of the concerns of the Select Committee, of which I am a member, and those expressed in Committee, as well as the views from a range of individuals and organisations. I am pleased that the AFPRB will now have a role in externally validating the provisions of the armed forces pension scheme.
      The review body will enable all views to be expressed on the issues that involve all ranks of the armed forces. While debating and consulting on the Bill, I and others have been concerned about how much voice—or rather, as it often seems, how little—has been given to all ranks of our armed forces, instead of focusing on officers having their say. The most junior ratings and privates get little opportunity either to be informed of the proposals or to respond to them.
      May I ask the Minister two questions about his response in last week's statement? First, I welcome the clarification he has given on the five-year proposal not constraining the AFPRB from considering recruitment, retention and pay more frequently. However, I still want to press him on whether he will consider the possibility of the AFPRB being able to consider matters related to the pension and compensation schemes more regularly than every five years. One of the interesting suggestions in the new clause is that a range of individuals serving in the armed forces and other organisations should be able to write to the AFPRB to express their views and concerns about the operation of the new scheme and how things are happening.
      Secondly, and linking up with the question I have just asked, the Minister said in his statement that
      "we plan that this will be done in the context of their quinquennial valuation of the AFPS, though more frequent examinations of the scheme provisions could be undertaken if wider developments justified this."—[official Report, 30 April 2004; Vol. 420, c. 65WS.]
      What does he mean by "more frequent examinations"? Could that mean every year? Will he give examples of the "wider developments" that would justify the AFPRB looking at things more regularly? The new clause suggests an annual review of the new scheme.
      I welcome the fact that the new clause also considers consultation, the impact that the new scheme may have on retention and recruitment, the transfer arrangements and the AFPRB making a critical examination of the longevity and cost-neutrality issues, which have been addressed previously.
      1524
      On consultation, I welcome the fact that the Minister and the Government have responded to some of the concerns that were raised about how little opportunity it seemed that Parliament would have to debate the detailed regulations, as they were introduced, to this enabling Bill. I welcome the assurance that statutory instruments will be available for discussion, and that the House will be able to give a negative response if it feels strongly about them. I am not content, however, with the way in which the consultation on the proposed new pensions and compensation scheme has been conducted over the past six or seven years by the Ministry of Defence. I always react strongly to the argument that says, "This is the way that things will be done, because that is the way that they have always been done", whatever the issue. Half of the population of this country—I and other women—would not have been allowed to vote or stand as Members of Parliament if that argument had been upheld and the established arrangement therefore maintained.
      As for other aspects of the new clause, subsection (6) raises the issue of mortality and longevity, which was certainly an issue for me and other members of the Select Committee. The Armed Forces Pay Review Body should have an opportunity to consider the straitjacket, as we see it, of cost neutrality. Many of us are still concerned that the new armed forces pension scheme is not based on what our armed forces deserve but on how much they get now. Improvements are being paid for by reductions in benefit to compensate for the fact that people are expected to live for longer. In its report, the Select Committee made the point that the Government's proposals do not deal with what we considered was the likelihood that due to the reduction in service personnel, the MOD's total bill would decrease over time in spite of the increased life expectancy of all pensioners. Will the Armed Forces Pension Review Body be able to consider the fact that personnel are being asked to bear some of the burden of increased cost, rather than the MOD? I will listen with great interest to the Minister's response to the issues that have been raised by new clause 2.
      Mr. Breed: I endorse all the comments of the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) and the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Rachel Squire).
      I welcome the Minister's announcement that the pay review body's remit will be wider than it has been hitherto. Many of us believe that it is a pity that that was not the case some time ago, as it would then have been able to comment on the very scheme that we are now discussing. If the MOD had allowed that improvement to the remit of that body, we would have had the benefit of its comments. Nevertheless, the improvement is welcome.
      On cost neutrality. I mentioned on Second Reading the fact that it was restricted to the pension scheme rather than applied to the whole remuneration budget. Now that the review body is considering remuneration, pay and pension, it is even more sensible to consider cost neutrality within the wider context of the total remuneration budget. At present the application of cost neutrality is so restricted that those strictures bear heavily on existing pensioners who will pay for some of the benefits of others.

      1525
      I also welcome the fact that the layout of subsections in new clause 2 indicates clearly what the remit of the review body would be. From what the Minister has said, however, it seems that the MOD will still decide what matters the pay review body will consider, how and when it will do so, and even whether it is allowed to do so. It therefore strikes me that it does not have much independence, and the MOD will still be very much in charge, which diminishes the role that the review body can play. For instance, if the Select Committee decides in a year or two to reconsider the matter, will that pay review body be able to give its views, or will the MOD say, "Sorry, you must wait five years to give an opinion". That seems to diminish the value of what the ministerial statement was encouraging us to think was happening last week. This opportunity to debate new clause 2 is therefore extremely valuable.
      The leaflet is helpful, although some might say that aspects of its wording are premature. It still gives no indication, however, as to where a serviceman might go to get independent financial advice. It may be that a serviceman will have an independent financial adviser. Where will an IFA get the right answers to his questions to enable him to give proper advice to his client? Such decisions may be very significant, and must be made well in advance of the implications taking effect. If they are unable in any way to gain the information necessary to make the correct decision, there is at least the opportunity of a further round of mis-selling. It will not be mis-selling in the sense that people are—deliberately or not—sold something that is not appropriate to them, but in the sense that the adviser had been unable to secure all the relevant information to ensure that the client got the right advice and was not in any way restricted or ill advised in terms of the decision to change to the new pension scheme. That is an important issue, and I welcome the leaflet, but I am not certain of the implications if somebody says, "That's fine, but I want precise information about my individual circumstances." Where will they go for that information, and how will that be addressed?
      Mr. Hancock: If the House agrees with the Defence Committee that the armed forces deserve a pension scheme that recognises the unique contribution that armed forces personnel make to the life of this country, it must also accept the advice that the Committee attempted to give to Ministers—that they would have to do more work on their proposals if best practice rather than cost neutrality was going to be the starting point for a review. Those words were spoken in the Defence Committee, by me and others, as far back as two years ago. Our report was published on 9 May 2002. It is a great disappointment to me that the Bill fails to grasp the point that we were making.
      2.30 pm
      I congratulate the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) on pursuing the issue in his new clause. I hope that—unless the Minister proves extraordinarily generous—he does not withdraw the motion, thus depriving us of an opportunity to divide the House. New clause 2 is fundamental to the fulfilment of the principles spoken of in the Defence Committee's comprehensive review of the armed forces pension scheme. In its present form, the Bill does not address those principles. The new
      1526
      clause would allow the review body to take account of changed circumstances and reflect what happens in the real world, rather than waiting for five years.
      The Minister said that the body reported to the Prime Minister, not the MOD. What goes to the Prime Minister, however, is not a public document. The Prime Minister can make a personal decision on whether to act on it. A report on something so fundamental should be presented to the House so that it can decide whether there should be structural changes in the way in which the armed forces are compensated for accidents, death or illness, or in their pension arrangements.
      New clause 2 would enable us to help armed forces widows—who spoke to the Minister and others yesterday about their problems, and their dissatisfaction with what has been done by successive Governments. The hon. Member for Aldershot was right to acknowledge that this is not just a one-Government failure, but a traditional failure of all Governments to recognise the difficult position in which many widows find themselves. Most Members of Parliament would agree that it is unacceptable, yet we choose to do nothing about it. The new clause would allow it to be examined and ruled on not by the Prime Minister but, properly, by the House.
      I was pleased to hear from the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Rachel Squire), who, as a member of the Defence Committee, listened to the evidence. It took a long time for the Committee to hear it all. We did not rush our review; the Committee is not renowned for its speed when it comes to matters as important as the pension and compensation rights of members of the armed forces. We heard a huge amount of evidence from all who could possibly be seen to have an interest. In her speech, the hon. Lady acknowledged that there were still improvements to be made. I sensed a more than willing acceptance that new clause 2 would help rather than hinder the Bill. I hope that the Minister will recognise that it is not a wrecking proposition, and is intended not to harm the Government's case but to cover matters that the Bill does not cover properly.
      Many of the problems of service personnel and their families will not go away, and we need a speedier vehicle to deal with them than we have at present. New clause 2 could provide it, and the Minister should welcome the new clause with enthusiasm. I hope that he takes a slightly more open view of it than he took, regrettably, of new clause 1, which he refused to consider. I also hope that the whole House will accept that if we are to live up to the expectation that we all claim to have that our servicemen and women should have proper pension and compensation schemes, it should not take five years to change aspects that are wrong.
      A flexible approach should be taken, and issues of cost neutrality should not be the driving force. The hon. Member for Aldershot explained very eloquently that there would be a reduction in the overall cost to the MOD. On what may have been the first occasion on which the Minister was allowed out of the MOD on his own, he addressed the Defence Committee on this issue. He dealt with a complex and difficult case remarkably well for someone who had been in his post for only a short time. He, I hope, recognises that all is not well in the armed forces, that we need to get it right, and that

      1527
      the Government's proposed scheme will give rise to widespread concern and dissatisfaction.
      The way in which we are informing service personnel about the proposals is not adequate. I do not think that the leaflet goes anywhere near appreciating the complexity of the issues, and the MOD does not even provide personnel in the scheme with a detailed analysis of how they would benefit if they changed their arrangements. Does the Minister dispute that? I should welcome an intervention from him explaining how people in that position can obtain definitive details of the benefits that they would lose and those that they would gain, but I do not believe that the MOD can provide such details.
      The Government's proposals lack clarity. New clause 2 gives us an opportunity to do things properly by allowing the House to examine recommendations submitted to it.
      Hugh Robertson: I refer hon. Members to my entry in the Register of Members' Interests.
      I support the new clause, although I shall probably speak in its favour much less eloquently than the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Rachel Squire)—who, as usual, spoke extremely well—and the two Liberal Democrats.
      We should be in no doubt that one overriding factor ought to influence our deliberations. Our armed forces are wholly unlike any other part of society, for a simple reason: they are expected to fight and, occasionally and regrettably, to die for their country. It is perfectly reasonable for them, in return, to expect security in their retirement.
      Sadly, we live in an age in which members of the public distrust Government, and I am sorry to say that members of the armed forces distrust the MOD. I do not particularly like that, but it is a fact of life. That is why we need the form of independent governance offered by new clause 2. Although I welcome the Government's proposals, they do not go far enough. I therefore hope that the Minister will accept the new clause.
      Mr. Caplin: I was going to begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) on his technological skill in being able to access a website. He can explain that to the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) later. But then the hon. Gentleman made a rather poor joke about football, revealing his lack of understanding of the game. Because he is an Aldershot Town supporter, however, I will forgive him. I shall confine myself to congratulating his team on reaching the Nationwide Conference final play-off. My team is in the second division play-offs, which will take place in a couple of weeks. We greatly look forward to them. That was a digression, and may represent the only point of agreement in this exchange. We shall see.
      There are a number of issues with which I want to deal in this important debate. I welcomed the comments of the hon. Members for Aldershot, for Faversham and Mid-Kent (Hugh Robertson) and for South-East Cornwall (Mr. Breed) and my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, West (Rachel Squire), who themselves
      1528
      welcomed the announcement that I made to the House last week. What I shall say now constitutes a response to the views of both the Select Committee and the Standing Committee considering the Bill. In the Standing Committee we discussed at length the whole issue of independence, and shared views on the various legal niceties in which we would have to become involved.
      I hope that the House will accept that, given that it is only seven days since I made the announcement, some details are still being worked out. My officials are in discussions with the chairman of the pay review body as we speak on the details of how we will conduct the reviews. I understand why the House is so interested in the discussions so, when they are complete, I undertake to make a further statement to the House in the usual way to keep Members advised of progress. I make that undertaking because we are talking about the new scheme and the first review might not take place until 2010, so that the scheme has time to settle down.
      The hon. Member for Aldershot and my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, West have asked why we chose the period of five years. A number of pension schemes choose a period of five years to look at the way in which things have changed, if at all, in that period. I was a trustee of a pension scheme before coming to the House and my experience is that there were sometimes very small changes over a long period in the nature of pensions in the wider economy. Considering the changes is one of the remits that the AFPRB will naturally have. Five years is about the right time. It will allow the scheme to come in and allow the body to take stock of it in order to prepare a report for 2010.
      Hugh Robertson: I take what the Minister says at face value. However, like him, I worked in the pensions industry for a while, albeit on the other side, before coming to Parliament. We were reviewed every three years, and almost every commercial firm is engaged in rolling three-year reviews. That is standard in the commercial world. The time period could be appreciably shorter than five years.
      Mr. Caplin: I accept that entirely. Triennial valuations are not uncommon in pension funds. However, in this case, we are not valuing a fund, and that might be the difference. We are asking the AFPRB to review the scheme as a whole and its conduct as the main armed forces pension scheme.
      I want to say a few words about the work of the Select Committee. As my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, West knows, I very much value the work that she and her Committee undertook on this issue. As Members will recall, we made sure that the response to the Select Committee was published in time for Second Reading. It was published in record time as opposed to the normal period of eight working weeks that we could have taken if we had wanted to. We did that because I believe that the Select Committee plays an important part in maintaining a watching brief on many of the issues relating to the armed forces. I hope that it will continue with its brief, and one or two interesting inquiries are under way at present. We all wish the Committee an interesting time whenever it gets to interview those people whom they invited last night to appear before it.

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      I turn to the issue of choice. I have used the word "choice" constantly throughout our debates, because the armed forces will have a choice when we get to the period after 6 April 2005 provided, as the hon. Member for Aldershot reminded me, the Bill gets through both Houses. I should have added that proviso earlier.
      It might help Members if I remind the House of what I said at 4.45 pm in a sitting of the Standing Committee. I pointed out:
      "New clause 13"—
      which was tabled by the hon. Member for Aldershot and his colleagues—
      "would require the Ministry of Defence to provide each service person eligible to transfer with a comparative benefit statement. I have already indicated that we intend to do that, and I recognise the importance of ensuring that our current service personnel have the information they need to make an informed decision on which pension scheme will meet their personal needs."—[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 24 February 2004; c. 218.]
      The view that I expressed then has not changed at all, except that we are progressing our work on how that advice should be offered.
      2.45 pm
      We are in discussion with a consortium of independent financial advisers on the services that they might be able to provide and the terms under which the services might be provided. I make it clear from the Dispatch Box on behalf of the Government that the Ministry of Defence and the chain of command are not licensed to give such advice. Therefore, in the transfer period window—it will not be April 2005, but could be a period of more than two years—people will get an individual pension benefit statement and they will then choose whether they wish to move to the new scheme. They will have the opportunity to seek independent financial advice to help them to make their decision. That will help us to avoid the problems of pension misselling that the hon. Member for South-East Cornwall reminded us about. That took place in the 1980s, and I know quite a lot about it.
      I fully expect the arrangements that I have described to be in place in good time to enable the transfer arrangements to take place. Hon. Members who served on the Standing Committee will know that I am reluctant to suggest dates for the introduction of computer system technology, and they have accepted that it might be wise of me not to do so.
      I come now to the new clause. We have taken an important step forward in inviting the AFPRB to carry out work for us in a professional way and on a quinquennial basis. As I have said, if the body feels in any of its annual reviews that it wants to make recommendations about parts of the terms and conditions, it will be free to do so. However, completely separate from that—I emphasise that this is applicable only to the pension scheme—there will be a piece of work to deal with the pension scheme itself.
      The new clause seeks to establish a much wider role for the AFPRB. In my statement last week, I tried to set out the basis of the discussions and agreements that I have reached with the body and its chairman to bring about the change. The role that I have announced deals directly with the concerns that were expressed in
      1530
      Standing Committee and on many other occasions about the need for external and independent validation of the armed forces pension scheme.
      The AFPRB will compare pension scheme arrangements with practice elsewhere in the wider economy and consider the extent to which those arrangements meet the recruitment and retention needs of our armed forces. It will publish the observations in an annual report after the completion of the first five years of the scheme in 2010, and the Government are committed to responding publicly to that report.
      The work that I have asked the AFPRB to undertake is clearly focused on the armed forces pension scheme and the current pension arrangements that we are discussing in the context of recruitment and retention. It would not be appropriate for the body to consider as part of its remit any of the legacy issues that the hon. Member for Aldershot and others have raised.
      Mr. Gerald Howarth: Why not?
      Mr. Caplin: For the reasons that I have set out. The AFPRB is being asked to look at the new pension scheme and to report on that and its conduct in relation to a quinquennial review. It is not being asked to look back on the legacy issues that the hon. Gentleman has already accepted occurred primarily under the Conservative Government.
      Mr. Hancock: I am delighted that the Minister has given way—he is being extraordinarily generous. I understand his reply to a certain extent, but if the AFPRB is not the appropriate vehicle through which to decide legacy issues, who will decide on such issues? Who will take proper account of the plight of servicemen who have been denied pensions so far, or of those who have problems with their pensions? What about widows and other groups such as the Gurkhas?
      Mr. Caplin: The AFPRB is clearly not the right vehicle. Since I have been in this post, I have always been happy to debate issues such as reserves and cadets with Members, and if the hon. Gentleman wants to debate this issue further, he can do so. I do not believe that the AFPRB, which will deal with the recruitment and retention of our armed forces, is the right vehicle for examining the so-called legacy issues raised by the Forces Pension Society, among others.
      I cannot see why the AFPRB should get involved in the transfer arrangements for existing personnel; that would certainly be the wrong way to go. I have described the way in which we anticipate that the transfer procedure will be conducted. A pension statement will be provided, and it will be possible to seek independent financial advice. We certainly have not discussed the idea that the AFPRB should get involved in decisions on transfer arrangements.
      I cannot support new clause 2, and if it is pressed to a Division I shall urge my hon. Friends to resist it. My reasons for not supporting it are simple. We have made progress in the past three months in terms of external validation of the pension scheme. That is a big and important step for this House in the scrutiny of armed forces pensions, and it constitutes a new validation of the pension scheme itself. That is the right way to go

      1531
      about matters. The AFPRB has the right skills and ability for the task, and working on a quinquennial basis will benefit the new armed forces pension scheme in the long term. I shall therefore resist the new clause if it is pushed to a vote.
      Mr. Gerald Howarth: I want to start on two notes of agreement: the prospects for Brighton and Hove Albion, and for Aldershot's return, hopefully, to the Football League. I thank the Minister for his good wishes, and I convey my fraternal greetings to Brighton and Hove Albion. On a serious note, I welcome the Minister's recognition that an improvement could be made, and his having made it. I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent (Hugh Robertson), and to the hon. Members for Dunfermline, West (Rachel Squire) and for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Hancock), for their support for new clause 2.
      In his closing remarks on new clause 2, the Minister seemed to acknowledge its merits and to accede to the extension of the AFPRB's remit to one or two other areas that were not envisaged. He said that in his view, the AFPRB is exactly the right body to conduct the review of the pension arrangements. I of course agree, but it is also the ideal body to examine legacy issues and transitional arrangements.
      Mr. Caplin: The hon. Gentleman is probably not surprised at my rising to reply. The term "pension arrangements"—if I did indeed use it—is one to which the industry is well accustomed. It uses that term to describe a new pension scheme, as many Members will testify. Which pension legacy issues does the hon. Gentleman think should be dealt with under the terms of new clause 2(12)?
      Mr. Howarth: In fairness, most of them. The Minister is as familiar as I am with the arguments concerning post-retirement widows. There is also the "trough" issue, which has exercised us all. These are difficult issues, and I am not suggesting that the Minister is uniquely to blame in this regard. I have tried to facilitate a sensible debate in this place, which is what the public want, rather than the trench warfare that we sometimes engage in. That said, they seem to like a bit of that as well, particularly on a Wednesday and in the light of the new leader of the Conservative party.
      We all have constituents who are very exercised about these issues, and who write to us about them. I genuinely felt that the new clause was a means by which I could offer not just the Minister but all of us a forum through which these issues could be resolved. Those who are concerned and feel hard done by would respect a decision taken by the AFPRB; however, I suspect that they are less respectful of the decisions of Ministers. The approach seemed a sensible one, and I would not want to put a limit on the legacy issues to which new clause 2(12) refers.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent raised the question of a three-year or a five-year review. Frankly, I am not fussed, so long as the AFPRB's remit enables it to address issues of concern as they arise. My hon. Friend made an extremely useful
      1532
      point by way of reference to the pensions industry, but as long as the AFPRB has the power to consider such issues at any time, my concerns will be met.
      The Minister mentioned individual benefit tables, which are extremely important to all our constituents and to those who serve in the armed forces. He said in Committee that he was working on a plan to ensure that they are provided, but it would help if he were kind enough to tell us how matters are progressing. Given that the 6 April 2005 deadline is approaching, the fact that the plan is not yet in place is a cause for concern. The Minister suggested that for those who continue to serve and who straddle the 6 April 2005 date, there will be a two-year window of opportunity for them to make up their minds. If he cannot provide individual benefit tables, will he undertake to ensure that the two-year period is a rolling window of opportunity? We do not want to discover that, 12 months after the date of introduction of the new scheme, people have only a year in which to make up their minds.
      Mr. Caplin: I understand the hon. Gentleman's point, and it is important that we get the pension benefit entitlement statements out to serving members of the armed forces. I assure him and the House that I shall make a careful review of the progress that we are making towards achieving that. We will try to ensure that we meet the timetable. We have followed the good example of a civil service scheme, which we briefly discussed in Committee. That scheme also used, I think, a two-year window. If that were to change, I would come back to the House to explain why.
      3 pm
      Mr. Howarth: That is excellent. What we all want to know is that the Minister will keep us informed of progress on a regular basis. The Minister also suggested that the transitional arrangements were not appropriate matters for the pay review body to consider. Again. I believe that they should be and that failure to include them is a lost opportunity.
      I do not, however, intend to press the new clause to the vote, notwithstanding the splendid support that I have received across the Chamber, for which I am extremely grateful. I have two reasons. First, the Minister has already acceded to some of our requests, so it would be churlish to kick him in the teeth and tell him to go away and do better. We would like him to do that, but, secondly, he has explained that he is still working on the details. In fairness, I am bound to give him the opportunity to conclude those details.
      Hawks in the other place will be watching our proceedings closely, among whose number are certain gentlemen of a greater rank than the Minister or myself, who stand by to protect the interests of those who were once under their command. The pressure will be on the Minister to work out the details in time for them to be considered in the other place. As I said, I shall not press new clause 2 to a Division, but I hope that it will have been noted in the other place that the remit of the pay review body could readily be extended to cover issues that are of concern to many people.

      1533
      For reasons that I have explained, I believe that it would be sensible to withdraw the new clause and I sense the feeling of the House that that is right. I would not stand in the way of any other hon. Member who wanted to press the new clause, but I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
      Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

    New Clause 3

      BURDEN OF PROOF
      'The power of the Secretary of State to modify an Armed Forces Pension Scheme may not on any occasion be exercised in any manner which would or might alter the onus on any person of proof as provided for by Article 4(2) or the benefit of reasonable doubt as provided for by Article 5(4) of the Naval, Military and Air Forces etc.(Disablement and Death) Service Pension Order 1983.'.—[Mr. Gerald Howarth.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Mr. Gerald Howarth: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      New clause 2 dealt with one of the key new issues in our proceedings and it was appropriate to debate it at some length. Other provisions were dealt with in Committee and the House should have an opportunity to debate them again, but I hope that we can make rather swifter progress than on new clause 2.
      New clause 3 provides for the existing burden of proof in compensation claims to be retained. The Government are seeking to change the existing rules concerning the onus and burden of proof. As matters have stood for the last 60 years, there is a compelling presumption in favour of a claimant whose appeal is brought within seven years of leaving the service. That is for a very good reason. The factors to which claimants are exposed in service life are in many ways different from those in civilian life. It is another example of many where it has been demonstrated that our armed services are different from the rest of society.
      We believe that it is wrong for the Government to say that the proposals use the modern "balance of probabilities" standard of proof. There is nothing modern about this. For 60 years, Parliament has recognised in respect of service personnel that it is appropriate to have different standards of proof, just as there is a difference between civil and criminal standards of proof. To suggest that it is not unfair discrimination against service personnel is mischievous. The truth is that, by changing the standard of proof, a valuable right that recognises the particular factors in service life is being withdrawn.
      The Royal British Legion, which represents 93 per cent. of all claimants, has analysed a representative sample of cases and demonstrated that, if the standard of proof were altered, 57 per cent. of all cases would not be eligible for a war pension and that a further 62 per cent. would fail on appeal. All the Minister would say in Committee was that he did not agree with the methodology of the Royal British Legion, but I remind him that that organisation, at the expense of voluntarily raised funds, represents people who are taking on their former employer to try to get a better deal for disabilities that they believe are attributable to their work in the service of the Crown.
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      The Select Committee said:
      "Because of the special risks that Armed Forces personnel are required to run, and because they are likely to be involved in situations of great uncertainty, with uncertain effects on their health, we continue to believe that the onus should remain on the Government to prove that service was not responsible for causing or worsening a condition for which a compensation claim is made."
      The Select Committee even sought to help the Government by attempting to meet them halfway. It proposed a double test under which a claim would fail either if
      "the claimant is unable to prove on the balance of probabilities that a condition was due to service"
      or if
      "the MoD is able to prove on the same standard of proof that the condition is not due to service."
      Ministers did not even consider that. All the Minister did in Committee was to ask me whether I was backing the Royal British Legion or the Select Committee. I explained that we were backing the Royal British Legion's argument, but it was, of course, the same as the Select Committee's argument. As I said, the Minister failed to recognise that the Select Committee sought to meet him halfway by providing a compromise solution, and it was inconsiderately brushed aside.
      Is it the Government's intention to remove a standard of proof that has stood the test of time and recognises the special factors of service life in order to deprive such a large body of former service personnel an entitlement to a war pension? We do not believe that the proposed new tariff system is an acceptable substitute for the current arrangements and unless the Minister can respond more positively than he did in Committee, I am afraid that we shall have to press the new clause to the vote.
      Mr. Caplin: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can help me and the House, as we have had only 24 hours to examine the new clauses. Does new clause 3 apply both to the pension scheme and the compensation scheme or only to the pension scheme? From reading it, I am not clear about that.
      Mr. Howarth: I suspect—I may need to take advice—that it deals principally with the burden of proof in compensation cases. Mutatis mutandis, as they say in Rome, what applies there might also apply to pensions. The Minister may wish to develop his point in his reply. I do not want to drag the debate out, as we had an extensive discussion in Committee. The issue was a matter of great concern to the Select Committee and it is a matter of concern to the Royal British Legion. There are wide-ranging concerns and the Government have not made a proper case for change. I take the view that, if it is unnecessary to change, it is necessary not to change.
      Rachel Squire: First, I declare an interest. I am the honorary vice-president of the Dunfermline branch of the Royal British Legion Scotland. My association with that organisation has clearly influenced my views, as have veterans throughout my life.
      I welcome the opportunity to raise the concerns of the Royal British Legion Scotland and the Royal British Legion in respect of the proposed new compensation

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      scheme. As has been said on several occasions, under the present system a claimant will receive a war pension if the Ministry of Defence cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that an injury or illness was not caused by events occurring during that person's time in service. The proposals in the Bill will mean that service personnel will have to prove that, on the balance of probabilities, their injury resulted from their time in service.
      The Royal British Legion has told me that it believes that the proposals will mean that 60 per cent. of all new claims from ex-service personnel will fail. Another factor is the introduction of a time limit, which will mean that claims must be made within five years of an incident taking place.
      Angus Robertson: Does the hon. Lady agree with the Royal British Legion that claimants will be deterred from making claims if the onus of proving responsibility is placed on them? In other words, they will not make a claim in the first place.
      Rachel Squire: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. In my constituency experience, I have found it difficult, in other circumstances, to persuade people to register claims when similar barriers and pressures are encountered.
      That leads me to my next point, which is that many people are unaware of time limits placed in respect of claims, for example under employment legislation. They are often unaware of what they are entitled to claim.
      I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to take into consideration as well the fact that, when a claim must be made within a five-year period, the condition to which the claim could legitimately apply may not have made itself felt. In other words, a person may not know that he or she is suffering from an illness or injury, as a complaint may take many years to develop.
      Another problem arises in connection with handling claims when medical records are inadequate or incomplete. I hope that the Minister will be able to say whether he or his civil servants have consulted other Departments about the problems that can be encountered when a person tries to obtain medical records and other records from a long time ago. If there has not been wide consultation on that matter, I suggest that talks be held with ministerial and civil service colleagues in the Department of Trade and Industry. I have been involved with compensation claims lodged by miners and I know that some of the problems and delays arising out of those claims have been owing to the inadequacy or lack of medical records that go back several years.
      Although I accept that the present compensation scheme is an unusual benefit, I believe that our armed forces have deserved it in the past and that they will continue to deserve it. I agree with the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) and my colleagues on the Select Committee: our service personnel run special risks and are involved in situations of great and constant uncertainty. The impact that that can have on their future health is beyond easy regulation or surveillance.
      I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to consider retaining the current burden of proof in the new compensation scheme. At the very least, I hope that he
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      will say that consideration will be given to the double test proposed by the Select Committee, that he will take the new clause away for further examination and that the matter will be brought back to the House for further discussion.
      3.15 pm
      Mr. Breed: I agree entirely with the two previous speakers. I want to make two additional points.
      First, the Government claim that the new compensation scheme is in line with modern practice. although, as has been said, it is not particularly modern. However, the MOD appears to have been selective when it comes to the aspects of modern pension and compensation schemes that it wants to introduce. It seems to me that the selection has revolved around whether the Government can save money. I suspect that the motivation behind the proposal is not so much a desire to modernise the scheme as to make further cost savings. Everyone accepts that it will be much harder for complainants to succeed with the cases that they bring. That being so, fewer claims will be paid and money will be saved.
      Secondly, even the existing system is unfair. Claimants have to fight an unequal battle. The MOD has unlimited resources to fight a claim and can prevaricate for years. If even more inequality is to be introduced by changing the standard of the burden of proof, that would be grossly unfair to people who want to make a claim.
      The Royal British Legion does a magnificent job in supporting claimants, although at terrific cost, as no legal aid is available for compensation claims. The Select Committee deliberated for a long time on this matter and came up with a wholly reasonable solution. If that solution were implemented, some practical problems might arise and there could be great scope for prevarication, but the Select Committee at least attempted to resolve the matter and recognised the need for fairness. It behoves the Minister to say exactly why the MOD wants to change what is a fundamental aspect of compensation claims.
      The new scheme will shift the burden away from the MOD and on to claimants. It has been pointed out that that will make it harder for people to make claims. As a result, a significant number of people will be deterred from even beginning an attempt to take on the MOD.
      I am glad that it appears that the matter will be put to a vote. I and my colleagues will certainly support the new clause.
      Mr. Hancock: I am slightly more optimistic than my hon. Friend the Member for South-East Cornwall (Mr. Breed). I hope that the Minister will see that the Government are making a shabby and shameless proposal in respect of compensation claims and that he will therefore accept the new clause. Anything else would fly in the face of what the Minister said that the Bill attempts to do.
      People in our armed forces and their families must be treated fairly and equitably. That was the conclusion of the investigation by the Select Committee into the current legislation. In the much wider review that the Committee conducted in 2002, we looked specifically at the burden of proof. I defy any hon. Member to say that

      1537
      it is easy to get information about service personnel out of the MOD. Those seeking compensation find it extraordinarily difficult to obtain their medical records and a later amendment refers to that problem. The Defence Committee report also explains how difficult it is to obtain any proof from the Ministry of Defence. Some service personnel who have photographs and medals to prove their service in a certain location have been told that they were not in those places, because of the inaccuracy of the Ministry's records. How can the burden of proof be placed on those seeking compensation, not on the MOD? That is what happens under the current system, but the proposals in the Bill beggar any belief in fairness and justice. I thought that social justice and fairness under the law were high priorities for our party of government. It may aspire to provide those things to all citizens, but obviously not to members of the armed forces.
      The hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Rachel Squire) mentioned the coal industry. Together with my local newspaper in Portsmouth, I am pursuing, on a daily basis, claims on behalf of service personnel, ranging from admirals to able seamen, who have been affected by asbestos-related illnesses, many of which do not materialise for 20 or 30 years. Trying to satisfy the standard of proof for such claims is all but impossible.
      The hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) said that in Committee the Minister asked him whether he supported the position of the Royal British Legion or the Defence Committee. That question is beyond belief, because they were saying the same thing. Every day, the Royal British Legion picks up the pieces of shattered and broken lives and fights to get people the compensation that they have been denied. Hon. Members are right to say that the Bill will mean that fewer people will make claims. We may say, cynically, that the MOD wants to make it so difficult that people will not make claims. It is already difficult to obtain the evidence needed to make a successful claim and the Minister failed to recognise that the Royal British Legion made that exact point and so did the Defence Committee.
      The Defence Committee offered an olive branch in the form of a solution that would enable the MOD to meet just over 50 per cent. of the ambitions of the Royal British Legion. The MOD refused. It would not even agree to retain the status quo, because it wants to screw down on those making a claim. Claimants will have to meet a standard of proof that goes beyond what most of us would consider reasonable. Some of those hon. Members who will he persuaded to vote with the Government today may, in a year or two, contemplate fighting a constituent's case for compensation. With the proposed standard of proof, they will find it very difficult to obtain the compensation that their constituent deserves.
      I ask hon. Members not to shame this nation by voting against new clause 3. That is what most reasonable people would expect—[Interruption.] The Minister may be cynical enough to believe that this is a laughing matter, but those of us who deal with such claims regularly will know that my comments are heartfelt. I often meet claimants who cannot satisfy the standard of proof required. The MOD frequently asks for more evidence before agreeing to consider a case when it knows very well that the information needed has
      1538
      been in its possession and has either been lost or shredded. That is not good enough. The new clause offers a little hope for people who should get much more support. The Government should be ashamed of their proposals.
      Mr. Caplin: For the record, I was not laughing and I take this matter very seriously. I draw the House's attention to the Government's response to the Defence Committee. It might be helpful if some hon. Members who have contributed to the debate were to refer to the report of the Committee that we have been considering, which is the one that was published in December, and our response, which was published in January. Paragraphs 69 and 70 of that report deal with the compensation proposals and detail why the Government have put them forward.
      We have a technical problem with the new clause. The hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) graciously confirmed that he intended it to affect the compensation scheme, but I am advised that as drafted it would affect the pension scheme. In saying that, I am trying to be helpful and I recognise that he has raised an issue for debate in connection with the compensation scheme.
      Mr. Gerald Howarth: We are always delighted when the Minister seeks to be helpful and we appreciate it. The technical issue may need to be addressed, but the Minister is a most capable man and it is not beyond his wit to provide the changes necessary to give expression to the will of the House.
      Mr. Caplin: I do not know about that, but I shall do my best.
      I recognise the role that the British Legion plays in many cases. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, West (Rachel Squire) is the president of the Dunfermline branch—
      Rachel Squire: Vice-president.
      Mr. Caplin: I suppose that we all know someone else who could be the president of the Dunfermline branch of the Royal British Legion. I met the British Legion this morning, together with the parliamentary Gulf veterans group. We had an interesting 45 minutes of discussion and I certainly value the work that the organisation does. We are in further discussions.
      In Committee, I said that we doubted the validity of the issue that the British Legion had raised about 60 per cent. of cases. We have now joined with the British Legion to consider the methodology that it used and we suspect that it will come to accept that its conclusions were not quite accurate. We shall also discuss the compensation scheme.
      The balance of probabilities is the key and we consider it right to adopt that standard of proof, as outlined in the Bill. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made that clear on Second Reading, in answer to an intervention by the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent (Hugh Robertson). When we decided to adopt that standard of proof, we asked an independent firm of consultants to consider that aspect of the compensation scheme. The consultants confirmed that
      "the proposed standard of proof is reasonable."

      1539
      I accept that the onus has moved from the MOD to the individual, and I shall outline my reasons for believing that to be a reasonable change.
      The Department has clear responsibilities. I understand and accept that. We have to ensure that service records and medical records are up to date. I do not know how many more times I can say this, but I have made it clear— starting at the Select Committee on 5 November—that if there is a failure, especially in medical record keeping, in relation to compensation cases, the Department will accept responsibility. I said that in the Standing Committee, I said it in the Select Committee and I have just said it again on the Floor of the House. The point is also reflected in our response to the Select Committee.
      At the Ministry of Defence, we understand, I hope, our responsibility for record keeping. If there is a failure, especially in medical record keeping, we shall accept responsibility. We are not trying to get out of paying compensation; far from it. We want to ensure that we pay compensation to the right people at the right time.
      One of the things that the new scheme will allow us to do, which we are not allowed to do under the current one, is to pay compensation to those who are still employed in our armed forces. The existing scheme requires people to leave the armed forces.
      I believe that the "balance of probabilities" standard of proof that we have adopted for the compensation scheme is in line with practice in most occupational pension schemes and in the civil courts. The "beyond reasonable doubt" standard of proof is not appropriate to a no-fault occupational scheme and would be out of line with current good practice, where evidence-based decisions are the norm, taking account of modern medical understanding and record keeping. As I said, we are clear about the responsibilities for record keeping that lie with the Ministry.
      3.30 pm
      Sir Robert Smith: Will the Minister give way?
      Mr. Caplin: I was just about to end my remarks, but I welcome the hon. Gentleman to the debate.
      Sir Robert Smith: Can the Minister clarify how wide-ranging his commitment is? Would the assumption that the claim was valid apply in all cases where records were missing, especially those of Gulf war veterans?
      Mr. Caplin: No, that is not what I said. I said there would still be a need to lodge a proper compensation claim, but that there are clearly responsibilities on the Ministry of Defence to ensure that proper records apply. For the benefit of the hon. Gentleman, we are discussing a new compensation scheme, which will be effective from 6 April 2005 and will apply to all members of the armed forces. Obviously, any events that occur up to 6 April 2005 will come under the current compensation arrangements; we are discussing only the new compensation arrangements this afternoon.
      1540
      In the light of my comments, I hope that the hon. Member for Aldershot will understand why I have to resist the new clause.
      Mr. Gerald Howarth: Once again, I extend my gratitude to the hon. Members for Dunfermline, West (Rachel Squire), for South-East Cornwall (Mr. Breed) and for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Hancock) for their support for the new clause. I know that, like us, the Minister regards the issue as important and does not take it lightly.
      I welcome some of the undertakings that the Minister has given, especially on medical records. All Members know that that issue has been very badly handled by the Ministry of Defence for a long time and that, from time to time, our constituents suffer accordingly. I am also pleased that the Minister is making up to the Royal British Legion and talking about methodology. That is welcome.
      I hear what the Minister says about modern medical understanding, which is to be applied to the claims under consideration, although I have to say that there is no reason that modern medical understanding should not be applied to the existing standard of proof. There is no reason why it would not be equally helpful to the MOD in resisting a claim from someone "modern medical understanding" felt was not injured as a result of service to the Crown.
      The argument has been well rehearsed and the issue is clear. The question is simple: are we to give the balance of advantage to those of our fellow citizens who put their lives on the line? This is not just another occupational pension scheme and nor is it just another occupational compensation scheme; it is a scheme for some very special people in our land—Her Majesty's armed forces. The Opposition and other Members feel that we owe it to our armed forces to give them the benefit of the doubt, and that means the Ministry of Defence having to prove beyond reasonable doubt that their injuries were not sustained by service to the Crown. Given the Minister's statement, I intend to press the new clause to a Division.
      Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
      The House divided:

      Division No.161]

      [3.34 pm

      AYES

      Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

      Burns, Simon

      Amess, David

      Burstow, Paul

      Ancram, rh Michael

      Burt, Alistair

      Arbuthnot, rh James

      Butterfill, Sir John

      Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

      Cameron, David

      Bacon, Richard

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Baldry, Tony

      Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

      Barker Gregory

      Baron, John (Billericay)

      Chope, Christopher

      Bellingham, Henry

      Clappison, James

      Bercow, John

      Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Beresford, Sir Paul

      Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

      Blunt, Crispin

      Conway, Derek

      Boswell, Tim

      Cotter, Brian

      Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

      Curry, rh David

      Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

      Davey, Edward (Kingston)

      Brazier, Julian

      Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)

      Breed, Colin

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

      Browning, Mrs Angela

      1541

      Djanogly, Jonathan

      Paice, James

      Donaldson, Jeffrey M.

      Portillo, rh Michael

      Doughty, Sue

      Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

      Duncan, Alan (Rutland)

      Evans, Nigel

      Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

      Fabricant, Michael

      Robathan, Andrew

      Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)

      Robertson, Angus (Moray)

      Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)

      Flight, Howard

      Forth, rh Eric

      Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

      Francois, Mark

      Roe, Mrs Marion

      Gale, Roger (N Thanet)

      Rosindell, Andrew

      Gamier, Edward

      Ruffley, David

      George, Andrew (St. Ives)

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

      Sayeed, Jonathan

      Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

      Selous, Andrew

      Grayling, Chris

      Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian

      Green, Damian (Ashford)

      Simmonds, Mark

      Greenway, John

      Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

      Grieve, Dominic

      Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

      Gummer, rh John

      Hancock, Mike

      Soames, Nicholas

      Hayes, John (S Holland)

      Spelman, Mrs Caroline

      Heald, Oliver

      Spicer, Sir Michael

      Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

      Spink, Bob (Castle Point)

      Hendry, Charles

      Spring, Richard

      Hermon, Lady

      Squire, Rachel

      Holmes, Paul

      Stanley, rh Sir John

      Horam, John (Orpington)

      Streeter, Gary

      Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

      Stunell, Andrew

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

      Syms, Robert

      Jack, rh Michael

      Taylor, Ian (Esher)

      Jenkin, Bernard

      Taylor, John (Solihull)

      Johnson, Boris (Henley)

      Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

      Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

      Taylor, Sir Teddy

      Laing, Mrs Eleanor

      Thurso, John

      Lait, Mrs Jacqui

      Tredinnick, David

      Lamb, Norman

      Tyrie, Andrew

      Lansley, Andrew

      Viggers, Peter

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Walter, Robert

      Leigh, Edward

      Waterson, Nigel

      Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)

      Watkinson, Angela

      Liddell-Grainger, Ian

      Whittingdale, John

      Loughton, Tim

      Wiggin, Bill

      Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

      Wilkinson, John

      McIntosh, Miss Anne

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Mackay, rh Andrew

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      McLoughlin, Patrick

      Willis, Phil

      Malins, Humfrey

      Wilshire, David

      May, Mrs Theresa

      Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

      Mercer, Patrick

      Winterton, Sir Nicholas

      Murrison, Dr. Andrew

      (Macclesfield)

      Norman, Archie

      Younger. Ross, Richard

      Öpik, Lembit

      Osborne, George (Tatton)

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Ottaway, Richard

      Mr. Hugo Swire and

      Page, Richard

      Mr. John Randall

      NOES

      Abbott, Ms Diane

      Beard, Nigel

      Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

      Begg, Miss Anne

      Ainger, Nick

      Benton, Joe (Bootle)

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Berry, Roger

      Allen, Graham

      Best, Harold

      Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

      Betts, Clive

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)

      Blackman, Liz

      Blizzard, Bob

      Atherton, Ms Candy

      Boateng, rh Paul

      Austin, John

      Borrow, David

      Bailey, Adrian

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Banks, Tony

      Bradshaw, Ben

      Barnes, Harry

      Brennan, Kevin

      Barron, rh Kevin

      Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

      Battle, John

      Bayley, Hugh

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      1542

      Bryant, Chris

      Harman, rh Ms Harriet

      Buck, Ms Karen

      Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)

      Burden, Richard

      Burgon, Colin

      Healey, John

      Burnham, Andy

      Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

      Caborn, rh Richard

      Hepburn, Stephen

      Cairns, David

      Heppell, John

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Hesford, Stephen

      Caplin, Ivor

      Heyes, David

      Casale, Roger

      Hinchliffe, David

      Caton, Martin

      Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

      Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Challen, Colin

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

      Chaytor, David

      Clapham, Michael

      Howells, Dr. Kim

      Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

      Hoyle, Lindsay

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Hutton, rh John

      Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

      Iddon, Dr. Brian

      Coaker, Vernon

      Illsley, Eric

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

      Cohen, Harry

      Coleman, Iain

      Jamieson, David

      Colman, Tony

      Jenkins, Brian

      Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

      Cranston, Ross

      Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

      Crausby, David

      Cruddas, Jon

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

      Kaufman, rh Gerald

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Keeble, Ms Sally

      David, Wayne

      Keen, Alan (Feltham)

      Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

      Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

      Dawson, Hilton

      Kemp, Fraser

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

      Denham, rh John

      Khabra, Piara S.

      Dhanda, Parmjit

      Kidney, David

      Dismore, Andrew

      Kilfoyle, Peter

      Dobson, rh Frank

      King, Andy (Rugby)

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      Drown, Ms Julia

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

      Kumar, Dr. Ashok

      Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

      Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Lammy, David

      Edwards, Huw

      Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

      Efford, Clive

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Lepper, David

      Farrelly, Paul

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

      Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

      Fisher, Mark

      Linton, Martin

      Fitzpatrick, Jim

      Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Love, Andrew

      Flint, Caroline

      Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

      Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

      Luke, Iain (Dundee E)

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

      McCabe, Stephen

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Foulkes, rh George

      MacDonald, Calum

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      MacDougall, John

      Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)

      Mclsaac, Shona

      Gerrard, Neil

      McKechin, Ann

      Gibson, Dr. Ian

      McKenna, Rosemary

      Gilroy, Linda

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

      McNulty, Tony

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      McWalter, Tony

      Grogan, John

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Hain, rh Peter

      Mallaber, Judy

      Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

      Mendelson, rh Peter

      Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

      Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

      Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

      Hanson, David

      1543

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Sheridan, Jim

      Marshall-Andrews, Robert

      Short, rh Clare

      Martlew, Eric

      Simon, SiÔn (B'ham Erdington)

      Meacher, rh Michael

      Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

      Merron, Gillian

      Skinner, Dennis

      Milburn, rh Alan

      Smith, Angela (Basildon)

      Miller, Andrew

      Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)i

      Moran, Margaret

      Morgan, Julie

      Soley, Clive

      Morley, Elliot

      Spellar, rh John

      Mountford, Kali

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

      Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Stoate, Dr. Howard

      Olner, Bill

      Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

      Organ, Diana

      Sutcliffe, Gerry

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Perham, Linda

      Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

      Picking, Anne

      Trickett, Jon

      Pickthall, Colin

      Truswell, Paul

      Pike Peter (Burnley)

      Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)

      Plaskitt, James

      Pollard Kerry

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Ward, Claire

      Purnell James

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

      Quin rh Joyce

      Watts, David

      Quinn, Lawrie

      White, Brian

      Raynsford, rh Nick

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Reed, Andy (Loughborough)

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

      Wills, Michael

      Wilson, Brian

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Winnick, David

      Woolas, Phil

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Worthington, Tony

      Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

      Wright, David (Telford)

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Wyatt, Derek

      Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

      Salter, Martin

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Sarwar, Mohammad

      Charlotte Atkins and

      Savidge, Malcolm

      Ms Bridget Prentice

      Question accordingly negatived.

    New Clause 4

      FULL CAREER PENSIONS
      'The Secretary of State shall provide mechanisms to ensure that all personnel in this scheme who have completed 35 years service, but are not retained in service after their 55th birthday. receive pension benefits which are based on 66.67 per cent.of their final salary.'.—[Mr. Gerald Howarth.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Mr. Howarth: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord)With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 5—Early departure—

      '(1)Those serving 18 years and having reached age 40 (whichever is later) shall be entitled to a system of Early Departure Payments.

      (2)Individuals meeting the requirements of subsection (1) shall receive payments until the preserved pension comes into payment at age 65.

      (3)The Secretary of State shall by order set out details of these payments.

      1544

      (4)The payments will be monitored by the Armed Forces Pay Review Body which will submit to Parliament a report on any changes.'.

      Mr. Howarth: The last vote was close, and I am sure that the Minister will take the message back to his Department.
      The objective of new clause 4 is to allow people to earn a full career pension in the armed forces. Under both the current arrangements and the new arrangements, the armed forces pension scheme is the only scheme in the public sector that does not offer genuine full career benefits up to the public sector benchmark or the limits allowed by the law, even for those who serve a full career. Only a very few—those who join when they are very young or those who reach a senior rank and are therefore allowed to serve beyond the age of 55—can accrue maximum benefits.
      It has been calculated that it is virtually impossible to earn more than 62.5 per cent. of one's final salary unless one joins extremely early or one is promoted to a high rank and invited to stay on. It is perhaps a paradox that the Labour Government—should I call them the new Labour Government or the tarnished Labour Government?—are proposing a scheme in which those on the highest salaries command the best final salary pension arrangements, and I am sure that others have also noticed that.
      The unusually low normal retirement age of 55 is required not by the armed forces but by the employer for reasons, many of which are entirely legitimate, relating to the age profile of personnel. It is physically demanding and arduous to be a member of the armed forces, and it is therefore right and proper that those services predominantly employ the young and fit, so the unusually low retirement age of 55 is legitimate. The low retirement age is not a perk of the job, and it is not a dispensation to soldiers, sailors and airman to retire at 55 because they have done such a good job. It principally benefits the employer, the Ministry of Defence.
      The new arrangements will seriously inhibit the opportunity to earn a full career pension through service. Few servicemen and women join young enough or serve long enough to earn full career benefits, and extending service length while the retirement age is low will exacerbate the problem. It is disingenuous at best to structure a scheme in which more than 90 per cent. of its members are debarred from earning a full career pension without buying additional voluntary contributions. The normal retirement age is a misnomer; it is actually the age at which the full career pension is payable. Allowing personnel to remain in service for 37.5 years would allow them to earn a full career pension at the public sector benchmark and the current limit of the law, but the majority, who are constrained by the normal retirement age of 55, cannot obtain a full career pension.
      We believe that the scheme should be altered to allow those who serve a full career to earn full benefits of 66.67 per cent. Options to achieve that include increasing the normal retirement age, increasing the terminal grant, improving the accrual rate—as Members of Parliament have in order to assist ourselves, the fact of which has not been lost on the services—or introducing shared-cost additional voluntary contributions. Such measures

      1545
      are widely available in other schemes for occupations where short careers are common—not only Members of Parliament, but, for example, the police. It really is an issue out there that we have changed our scheme to suit the particular requirements of service to this House. I personally think that those changes are entirely reasonable and appropriate and reflect the fact that most of us provide a service to the House of Commons, but what is good enough for us we should regard as good enough for our armed forces.
      The fact is that at 55 the armed forces employee has very limited prospects of earning a second career pension of any comparable value and is therefore uniquely disadvantaged among those employed in the public sector. That experience is shared in this House. Members who leave, voluntarily or involuntarily, at the age of 55 and having served in particularly important Departments such as the Ministry of Defence might well find themselves with handsomely rewarded consultancies or directorships; but for every one of those, I venture to suggest that many others will have been in the foot soldier category and not find such lucrative employment possible. A reflection of that fact of life informs the current scheme and should inform the new scheme.
      The new clause would place on the Secretary of State a requirement to provide a mechanism to deal with that. We did not spell out what that mechanism should be, but left Ministers with the flexibility to devise a scheme that uses some of my suggestions to enable the intent of the new clause to be met.
      I mentioned the parliamentary scheme, but let me for the record remind the House that the police service scheme's accelerated accrual rate in the last 10 years of service could be replicated for the armed forces. The Government are fond of saying that considering comparable public sector schemes is part of their benchmarking exercise in trying to come up with the right solutions for the armed forces pension scheme. The police are an example of a public service that is similar to the armed forces, as police officers also—all too often, sadly—put their lives on the line for the security of our nation. The police service's scheme recognises the particular difficulties that its employees face. That gives the Minister something to go on, and I hope that he will accept the new clause.
      New clause 5 would add to the Bill the provisions of the early departure scheme, details of which were given to Members only during our considerations in Standing Committee—they were not available on Second Reading. The new clause sets down the bare bones to give the scheme specific parliamentary protection and to leave it less vulnerable to ministerial manipulation— although, in fairness, the Defence Committee thought that the scheme had enough flexibility to enable Ministers to manage the business of manning control in the armed forces.
      The immediate pension scheme is a not inexpensive benefit that accounts for about a third of the pensions budget. That substantial amount of expenditure has meant that benefits for full career servers and their dependants were depressed well below the benchmark and modern good practice.
      1546
      The Ministry of Defence proposes to change from the immediate pension scheme to the early departure scheme for three principal reasons. First, it will improve the benefits for full career servers and their dependants in the overall cost-neutral constraint that applies to the Bill. Secondly, it will comply with Green Paper proposals on the wider subject of pensions, which will make it illegal to pay a pension to someone who has not reached the age of 55. Thirdly, it will remove the inequities between officers and other ranks that are inherent in the immediate pension scheme and are caused by different accrual rates for qualifying periods.
      Both the immediate pension and the early departure schemes were and are designed as manpower control tools to improve retention. That is a matter for principal personnel officers and is not pensions business, but the efficacy of the proposed early departure scheme as a manpower control tool is speculative. We simply cannot judge its effectiveness today. We know the current effect of the immediate pension scheme on retention and, to a lesser extent, recruitment. However, the proposal contains an element of leaping in the dark. The early departure scheme will be used for manning control and we shall not know for probably 20 years whether it will prove efficacious in Ministry terms in retaining the skills that we need to keep.
      4 pm
      Angus Robertson: The Government are not taking a leap in the dark when we consider the examples that the Ministry of Defence has worked through to compare the early departure scheme payments with the immediate pension scheme payments. Under the new scheme, the amounts are halved per annum. That is the effective difference for all ranks. Does the hon. Gentleman believe that that will make the new scheme more attractive to those who are currently serving? Will they wish to change to a scheme that will mean the effective halving of their annual income?
      Mr. Howarth: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. He is right that the new scheme puts especially those who leave early at a disadvantage. As the Under-Secretary said earlier, those who are currently serving and remain in service on 6 April next year will have to decide for which scheme to opt. They must determine whether to choose the new scheme and substantially reduced benefits. They will have to trade that against, for example, the welcome salary multiplied by four for death in service under the new scheme. Again, that is equivalent only to the provision that the House makes for its Members and therefore, although it is welcome, it is not exceptional.
      As I said in Committee, I envisage some difficult conversations in military households throughout the land, especially when Her Majesty's armed forces are called on to undertake war-fighting operations or dangerous peacekeeping operations. There will be pressure on soldiers from wives who say, "If you are killed and you stay in this scheme, I get one and a half times your salary, but if you opt for the new scheme and you are killed, at least the children and I will get four times your salary." Against the current background, that will be a compelling argument because it is relevant today, but not perhaps in 15 years, when the person becomes entitled to an early departure scheme payment.

      1547
      The hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) is right. A staff sergeant who leaves the service at the age of 40 on a pensionable salary of —30,820 will get a lump sum of nearly —30,000 under either scheme, but his annual pension will effectively be halved. His early departure payment at the age of 55, uprated for inflation, would be about a quarter or a third less than he would receive under the immediate pension arrangements. The overall saving to the Government that has been calculated in that case would be about —57,000. Equally, it has to be said that if that same staff sergeant retired at the age of 54—which is much less likely, as they tend not to stay on that long—there would be a cost to the Government of —56,000. Given the present profile of service, however, it is much more likely that the Government will save money.
      I do not wish to labour these issues, because they were extensively debated in Committee, but concerns have been raised in the Defence Committee about the early departure scheme. We can see the purpose of it. It is true that it will deliver —100 million a year in savings to the Ministry of Defence, which could be redeployed elsewhere, but it will disadvantage some of those who are currently serving and will be serving. The issue will cause considerable grief in households up and down the land, and the least that the Minister can do is to ensure that the scheme is put in the Bill. I look forward to hearing his comments when he winds up this debate.
      Rachel Squire: I welcome the details that the Government have provided on the early departure scheme since the Select Committee produced its report and since our Second Reading debate. I was not on the Standing Committee, so I would like to take this opportunity to ask the Minister a couple of brief questions. First, given that the early departure scheme will not attract index linking to inflation, how does the Ministry plan to deal with the fact that the real value of the scheme will apparently decrease over time? Secondly, what consideration has been given to the possibility of payments to personnel differing substantially over time in the early departure scheme, possibly leading to grievances and disputes between personnel who find themselves receiving very different payments?
      Mr. Breed: I should like to make a couple of points in support of the two previous speakers. I just do not believe that it is beyond the wit of the MOD to address the full career pension issue. The current concerns seem totally disproportionate to the likely cost involved. If the Government could address some of the issues that are engendering criticism and objections without it costing them a significant amount within their total budgetary constraints, I hope that even at this late stage they will consider doing so, and give us an indication accordingly. The percentage difference is relatively small, and the measures seem likely to apply to so few people that the issue ought not to be such a running sore for some.
      Secondly, in relation to the early departure scheme, I want to mention the issue of erosion over a period of time. Thankfully, we live in low-inflationary times. I pay tribute to the Government for that—it is very welcome
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      indeed, notwithstanding the slight interest rate rise earlier today—but many of us are beginning to grow used to it. However, we are discussing schemes that will have effect long into the future—who knows what will happen then?
      We do not want to make the mistake, which was made in the past, of producing a so-called pension trough. It appears to me that we held back during a period of high inflation and wage restraint, so we have had the trough going forward. That subject has been debated. Without any index linking and without a clear indication of how the Government would address that particular potential problem, the early departure scheme runs the risk of experiencing exactly the same difficulty in a few years. If we are to learn from the past. perhaps we should envisage that the pension trough issue will arise again if we go into a period of high inflation, and undergo some pay policy restraint. We must face up to the issue, even if it is not totally apparent in today's inflationary climate.
      Angus Robertson: I want to make a brief contribution on a subject that I raised in an intervention, which involves the early departure scheme and, in particular, how it might impact on communities that are perhaps viewed as more peripheral and which have a low-wage economy. Some of those communities also have a significant military footprint, which is certainly the case in my constituency, where a third of all service personnel north of the border are stationed.
      The early departure scheme is not an academic exercise. It is a real, important issue affecting the income of many people, particularly in lower ranks, when they make decisions on their future and where they see themselves and their families living. The hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) is right that many people will have to make a difficult decision on whether to remain in the current scheme or to transfer to the new one.
      Politicians are often accused of not having a particularly long-term view. I want to try to break that mould in a small way in addressing this scheme and how it may impact in 10, 20 or even 30 years' time. That is what we must do in considering the issue. I want to paint a theoretical picture, although I would be grateful if the Minister confounded me and reassured me that my fears are misplaced.
      According to some trade union estimates, the area that I represent—Moray—has the lowest average wages in Scotland, although central Scotland has areas of significant poverty and low wages. It is also a fact that many hundreds, if not thousands, of service personnel take early retirement at an age when they can still enjoy a second career. They do so with great happiness. Moray is a tremendously beautiful part of the country with a high quality of life and there are job opportunities, but, because of the nature of the market, those jobs are not particularly well paid.
      One reason for many of those service personnel being able to remain in the community to which, often, they have moved from elsewhere in Scotland or down south is that they have a cushion that is provided through the immediate pension scheme. I am concerned that, if those who enter the service or choose to go into the early departure scheme see that annual payment effectively halved, a significant number might choose not to remain.

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      The House should remember that I am painting a picture of what things may be like in 10, 20 or 30 years' time. The population projection for my constituency is a decline of up to 38 per cent. by 2018, so the potential double-whammy of significant population decline and economic disincentive caused by the new scheme will not help the area.
      I have raised the issue with the Minister, and he has signalled an interest in and understanding of the question. I am keen for him to signal that he understands that there may be a significant impact on communities in Scotland, and I imagine that that is the case not only in Moray but in Fife and around the Clyde. Is he confident that the new early departure scheme arrangements will not have a negative impact on the number of retiring personnel who wish to stay on and contribute in an important way to local economies, such as those in Moray, Fife, the Clyde or elsewhere in the UK?
      4.15 pm
      Mr. Mark Francois: I want to make two brief points in this debate. I should declare an interest, as I am the president of the Rayleigh branch of the Royal British Legion—and proud to be so—and I am in the process of applying to become an associate member of the Rayleigh branch of the Royal Naval Association, which is based in part on the fact that my father, Reginald Francois, served in the Royal Navy in the second world war.
      I wish to address my remarks mainly to new clause 4. First, I want to follow up the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) about the comparison with the pension scheme that Members of the House enjoy. I am pleased that the Ministry of Defence has decided to match the four times death-in-service benefit, which I am sure will be popular among service personnel and their families, and it is appropriate that there is now equanimity between the benefit that we enjoy and the benefit that those who are prepared to fight on behalf of our country will enjoy.
      It is important to remember that, relative to the MOD's scheme, our pension scheme is contributory, which is not always brought out when it is reported in the press. Members who chose the option of fortieths will now be paying 9 per cent. of their gross salary, so it is a fair comment that we are chipping in from our salaries under our scheme. I entirely understand why those in the services, who are very sensitive to changes in their pension arrangements, for reasons to which I will refer in a moment, would look with understandable scrutiny at our scheme, and perhaps would not be slow in making comparisons with any changes that relate to them. If I were a serviceman. I would be doing exactly the same, and it is right that we in the House should acknowledge that understandable desire to match in some respects what we have.
      That leads on to my second point, which I have raised previously in the House in other contexts: the importance of retention in the armed forces. Arguably, people in this day and age are much more sensitive to pensions and changes in pensions than perhaps they were 10 or 20 years ago. The pensions market and the structure of pensions have changed a great deal in that time. There has been the business of Equitable Life and
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      other problems in the pensions industry, which I will not rehearse again this afternoon. Suffice it to say that, because of a number of those changes and events, people now pay much closer scrutiny to their future pension than they might have done two decades ago, and that affects their career planning. In the context of this debate, that also firmly affects the decisions that they and their families make about whether, as they approach middle age, they retain their post in the armed forces or move on to seek an alternative career. Ministers must therefore be careful before they change any of the arrangements, as they may start to see a knock-on effect on retention if they get some of the issues wrong.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot dealt very well with the technicality of that, and the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) made a thoughtful contribution about how such things play out over the long term. I remind the Minister that although recruitment figures for the armed forces remain healthy, almost as many people are leaving at the moment as are joining. The key is the net figure and the overall ability to retain skilled and experienced personnel. That is even more important, because no matter how enthusiastic the recruits, they cannot, at least in the first few years, make up for the experience that the armed forces lose when an experienced non-commissioned officer, such as a colour sergeant in the infantry or a staff sergeant, decides to leave the Army. We face the danger of a gradual hollowing out of our armed forces as more and more experienced personnel leave and are replaced by recruits without experience. That is a worrying trend over the long term, and Ministers must deal with it if they are to be consistent. As I have said, I have raised the point before.
      The future pensions of servicemen and women are becoming increasingly important to their calculations and their decisions on whether to stay or go. I issue a plea to the Minister, as others have done: the Government must think very carefully before making any long-term changes. They must be very mindful of the likely effect of such changes on the retention of experienced key personnel. After all, it takes a great deal of time and money to train them. The Government must be extremely careful in everything they do that affects service pensions, because it will begin a knock-on process that may prove very difficult to reverse if Ministers get it wrong.
      Mr. Caplin: I welcomed the speeches of the hon. Members for Moray (Angus Robertson) and for Rayleigh (Mr. Francois). Perhaps the hon. Member for Moray and I could discuss his points in more detail outside the Chamber. I found them especially pertinent, given my ministerial responsibility for veterans. As for the hon. Member for Rayleigh, I was particularly interested in what he said about recruitment and retention. As he and his hon. Friends know, I pay close attention to those issues. The 20,000 people who leave each year become veterans, and it is important for us to look after their interests as well.
      Angus Robertson: I appreciate the Minister's invitation to discuss with him the issues that I raised. May I now ask him to put something on record? Does he believe that the new early departure scheme will not

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      have a negative impact on the number of retiring personnel who wish to stay on and contribute, in an important way, to low-wage economies, often in peripheral areas?
      Mr. Caplin: I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is making—we have touched on it briefly before—but I have done no detailed work on it. That is why I suggested that we discuss it at some point in the future.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, West (Rachel Squire) mentioned index-linking. We have adopted the same approach to the early departure plan as we currently apply to the immediate pension. It is not index-linked. but it will be once a person reaches the age of 55, which seems to us appropriate. My hon. Friend will recall that at one stage there was a slight error on the MOD website; we corrected it in response to the Select Committee's report.
      As for my hon. Friend's second point, I do not expect any major changes in early departure plans. As currently happens with the immediate pension, people will sign on for the terms offered to them at the time. I do not envisage any small changes in those terms.
      The 66.67 per cent. of final salary mentioned in new clause 4 will obviously have a cost implication, of which I am sure the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) is aware. Under the Bill, personnel who serve until the normal retirement age of 55 and have served for 35 years under the new pension scheme will receive pension benefits comparable with those available under the current scheme, which will be paid much earlier than those in most other schemes. As the hon. Member for Rayleigh pointed out, dependants' benefits will be significantly improved. Personnel who wish to improve their pension benefits further will have the opportunity, as they do now, to purchase additional voluntary contributions. The extended accrual period of 40 years will provide sufficient headroom for them to receive benefits up to the current Inland Revenue limits should they wish to do so.
      The new scheme has been designed to be equitable, treating officers and other ranks in the same way with a common, even accrual rate. The Select Committee's report applauded us for that. The new clause would benefit only a limited number of personnel who serve a full career, as the majority will have left before the new early departure point—18 years' service, at a minimum age of 40. I feel that it is therefore counter to equality of treatment.
      I shall also deal briefly with new clause 5, and I do not think that the hon. Member for Aldershot will be at all surprised by my response. I do not know how many times he has heard this argument, but I do not propose to accept the new clause for the reasons that I outlined on Second Reading and in Standing Committee. Such details should not, in my and the Government's view, be included in primary legislation.
      As the hon. Gentleman rightly acknowledged, I gave the Standing Committee two detailed notes on the early departure plan and put copies in the Library. He was kind enough to say in Committee that they were "clearly written" and "relatively easy to understand". I take that
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      as a compliment for a Ministry of Defence document of that type. The documents will form the basis of the separate statutory instrument setting out the scheme rules. However, it is important that I point out that the early departure plan is not part of the new pension scheme, as the benefits paid under it are not pension benefits.
      I have no particular difficulty with some of the separate points made in new clause 5. Indeed, the first three subsections simply repeat details that were set out in the notes that I published previously. The only new point is in subsection 4, which seeks to embrace the early departure plan within the scope of the independent, external validation review of the new pension scheme that we debated earlier.
      As I have just said, EDP benefits are not pension benefits, and that is a large part of their attraction to our armed forces. They have allowed us to develop more flexible arrangements that, I hope, will better meet the needs of our service personnel while providing the savings to fund significant improvements to widows' benefits and to help offset the rising cost of longevity. However, I want to make it clear that we plan for the AFPRB to look at the level and broad design of the EDP within its quinquennial review and as part of its broad remit with respect to remuneration.
      I do not intend to accept the new clauses, but I hope that what I have said reassures the House. Perhaps we can move on.
      Mr. Gerald Howarth: I am delighted to hear that the Minister has found another purpose for the AFPRB, which serves further to undermine his earlier argument against my proposals. I certainly welcome the fact that he has suggested that the early departure payments scheme should be extended to the AFPRB for its consideration. I am sure that the House will welcome that.
      I appreciate the support of all the Members who have said kind words about the new clauses. In particular, I recognise the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh (Mr. Francois) made and that the Minister rightly picked up. The litmus test is what the scheme will do for retention. We cannot be sure what it will do, because the jury is still out. The backing of the Scottish nationalists has extended the range of support for the new clauses, so the Government should listen carefully because support for them is coming from across the House.
      I take the point that the Minister makes about not including the provision in the Bill, but I am sorry that he feels unable to do that. I also think that he is being unfair on the issue of the full career pension. There is simply a difference of view between us. He rightly said in Standing Committee that there was a cost implication, and I fully accept that there may well be. Cost implications surround the issue and one of the tricks is to find a way of giving the best possible service to our armed forces that is consistent with exercising a proper constraint on public expenditure. The Minister and his Department know the arguments just as much as I and my party know them. However, we all feel that our deliberations should be determined by what is best for our armed forces. Clearly, nobody has a blank cheque—I have no more of a blank cheque than the Minister has—but the issue that we must bear in mind is what is in the best interests of our armed forces.

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      4.30 pm
      My hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh described the pensions that we receive as Members of this House as contributory, the implication being—I know that he did not mean it—that the armed forces do not contribute to theirs. There is widespread resentment throughout the armed forces at the idea that their pension is a perk—a free gift from the Ministry of Defence and the Government. It is not. As the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Rachel Squire) knows better than anybody else, members of the armed forces pay for it. When considering salaries, the Armed Forces Pay Review Body discounts the amount that, in its view, service personnel are getting as value for their pension. The value of that abatement is currently 7 per cent.—it was 11 per cent.—so the idea that the armed forces do not contribute must be scotched once and for all. They receive a lesser salary than they would get if the appropriate contribution to meet the worth of their pension were deducted from their salary.
      Mr. Francois: The point that I was trying to make is that although the media often acknowledge that members of the armed forces contribute to their pensions, they do not always acknowledge that Members of Parliament contribute to theirs. I was simply trying to make that point in the interests of balance. Service personnel rightly chip into their own pensions, and we thank them for it.
      Mr. Howarth: My hon. Friend has put that point firmly on the record.
      Unfortunately, time is running out and we have other important business to attend to. I hope that the Minister has noted our concerns, particularly in respect of full service career pensions; I suspect that these matters will be taken up in another place. We will simply have to wait to see how the early departure scheme works out, but in the interests of moving on, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
      Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

    New Clause 7

      WIDOW'S PENSIONS FOR LIFE
      'From 6th April 2005 existing widows and widowers currently in receipt of an unattributable Forces Family Pension shall retain that pension for life.'.—[Mr. Gerald Howarth.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Mr. Gerald Howarth: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
      New clause 8—Date of marriage—
      'From 6th April 2005 widows and surviving registered unmarried partners of all service personnel shall receive a full widow's Forces Family Pension based on their spouse's or partner's length of service and final salary regardless of that date of marriage or registration.'.
      Mr. Howarth: I regard these matters as extremely important, and in the absence of a satisfactory answer
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      from the Minister, I might well have to invite my hon. Friends and others to press the new clause to a vote. I do not suggest that as a threat; rather, the business arrangements of the House are such that it will probably assist you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if I explain my position at the outset.
      New clause 7 deals with widows who have unattributable pensions—in other words, widows whose husbands died from natural causes rather than as a result of service. Under the current scheme, certain widows—here, I include widowers—retain their pensions for life should they care to remarry or cohabit, and others do not. A distinction is made according to whether the spouse's death was attributable to service or not. The new scheme will remove that distinction, and will allow all widows and unmarried partners, of whatever sexual orientation, to keep their pensions for life.
      Nevertheless, the changes laid before Parliament in this Bill will create a group of disadvantaged widows: existing non-attributable widows. Those whose husbands died from natural causes will still lose their pension should they elect to remarry or to cohabit. That small discrete group will still be forced to choose between financial well-being and happiness in a future relationship. We regard that as indefensible. The group at risk is tightly defined and small—in other words, the existing non-attributable widows and those tragically created between now and the introduction of the new pension scheme in about 2007. Only about half may be expected to remarry.
      The Government have already conceded the principle that widow's pensions for life are appropriate. They introduced them in 2000 for one type of service widow— the attributable widow whose husband died as a result of service. At that time, existing widows were included retrospectively and the Government also planned to introduce such pensions for the other type—the non- attributable widows, but not including such existing widows.
      If the Government do not take the one further small step of including existing non-attributable widows, they will wilfully create a new group of disadvantaged and aggrieved people and a serious and unnecessary fault line within the scheme. Indeed, I venture to suggest to the Minister that they will create a new legacy issue. It would be a small, magnanimous and entirely appropriate step—wholly in line with the Government's own agenda—to include existing non-attributable widows. The Government have rightly tried to create fairness in some respects, but long-standing inequity has been exposed, so they should use the opportunity provided by the new Bill with its new scheme to start afresh and correct that inequity.
      The Minister's predecessor suggested that if we established a precedent under this scheme, there would be a read-across to all other public sector schemes, but I do not believe that that would happen. It has always been the Conservatives' submission—and, I believe, that of the Select Committee—that our armed forces not only are different, but need to be different. There should therefore be no automatic read-across. We must be allowed to make particular provision for a particular category of people whom the entire nation recognises as

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      different from the rest of us. The commitment of the serviceman is unique, so I see no reason why we cannot make a unique case in this respect.
      I do not accept that it will cost us billions of pounds to provide the scheme because other groups of public sector workers will then expect the same treatment. I hate using the expression "public sector workers" in respect of Her Majesty's armed forces. Servicemen are not public sector workers; that is not to decry such workers, but to deny comparability between the two. We know that members of the armed forces are unique.
      A service widow is also unique in that the requirements of the service caused her to be disadvantaged while her husband was serving—she was often unable to earn an occupational pension because of the frequent requirement to follow the flag. It was often impossible to develop a long-term career. A splendid lady, Mrs. Jenny Green, whose husband died in a Tornado accident, persuasively put that case yesterday. As she said, it was Ministry of Defence policy to involve wives in welfare duties at any RAF station.
      A friend of my parents used to be the commander at a RAF station in Germany. He married late in life and his wife rather resented the fact that she had not realised that she had joined the RAF by default. It was her job in a wholly unpaid capacity to act as the welfare officer, getting all the wives on the station together. That was the position that prevailed. Wives had to travel with their husbands and were unable to pursue a career. The husband's career often depended on his wife's involvement in the wider service. Today, the Government pay for welfare officers to do the job, but in the old days. they had the wives to do the job on the cheap, as it were, and many a wife and widow across the country will recognise what I am describing.
      As Jenny Green also pointed out, stakeholder pensions are not a viable option for service wives and widows because they are often unable to build up a personal pension in their own right, as other civilian widows and wives have the opportunity to do, neither can they afford the full national insurance contribution for a full DSS widow's pension.
      All in all, I hope that the Minister will accept that the people involved belong to a very specific category. They have been uniquely disadvantaged, and it would be sensible for us to make provision for them. The nation would be grateful as well.
      In addition, those women who receive pensions at the moment lose them only if they remarry. There is therefore no question that the Government or the MOD will have more costs to bear if the new clause is accepted, as current payments will merely have to be maintained.
      Mr. Caplin: Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that what he proposes from the Dispatch Box is now official Conservative party policy? In the likely event—I should say the unlikely event that the Tories ever return to power, will the policy be implemented in their first manifesto?
      Mr. Howarth: I am afraid that the Minister got it right first time. It is likely that we will assume office next year, but I do not want to be too partisan as there is genuine
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      consensus across the House on some of these matters. Of course I speak on behalf of the Opposition, and my argument is that the people involved deserve to be shown some consideration.
      For the benefit of people outside the House, I want to make it clear that the Minister has not addressed the serious issue that is at stake. He has chosen to cut the cake in a certain way, with the result that the people about whom I am speaking have been carved out. They are deeply resentful, and do not feel that they should have been treated in that way.
      The Conservative party is not in government at the moment, and I do not know the state of the books, but I can tell the Minister that I will not be browbeaten or intimidated into saying that we would not help those people. On behalf of the official Opposition, I say that we will do our level best, when we return to government, to find ways of helping these people. That is not a spending commitment, as I do not know how much money is involved. Frankly, the truth is that the Minister does not know either. He cannot tell the House how much money is involved in dealing with these people, and neither can I. Therefore, the basis of his question to me is entirely specious. However, the Opposition believe that these splendid people should be helped and supported.
      New clause 8 deals with post-retirement marriages. When people die who married after retirement from the services, their widows, in certain circumstances, are not eligible for a pension. Pensions for widows of post-retirement marriages were introduced on 6 April 1978—I think that that was the last time that the Labour party was in government—to comply with the Social Security Pensions Act 1975. However, the change benefited only those serving at that date, and only service from that date qualified. The review of the armed forces pensions announced last September introduced full dependants' benefits for unmarried partners, with effect from 6 April 2005.
      Special factors undoubtedly apply to service personnel who are not applicable to any other group of public or private sector workers. The pattern of service life militated against early marriage. Service people were stationed abroad for long periods, with limited opportunities to meet suitable potential future spouses. They therefore tended to marry later, often after having completed distinguished military careers.
      For officers, early marriage was formally discouraged up to 1973, through the denial of allowances and quarters. The strains on marriages of enforced separation and exposure to danger also probably led to the incidence of divorce being higher in the armed forces than elsewhere. The services' normal retirement age of 55 is well below the norm of 60 or 65 elsewhere. and the vast majority of service people are forced to retire at or below 40 because of service manpower policy. In consequence, the probability of service people marrying for the first time, or for a subsequent time, after leaving the armed forces was, and remains, higher than elsewhere.
      At yesterday's meeting, it was interesting to hear one lady say that she had received letters from a number of people who had decided not to get married during their service careers. The reason was that they knew that part of their contract with the nation was that they had to put

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      their lives on the line. They did not want to have the responsibility of getting married and then leaving their families with less than adequate provision in the event of their death. It is not an academic argument: it is supported by fact.
      The post-retirement marriage pension rules bear heavily and unfairly on the armed forces whose unique conditions of service, as we all know, make them a special case. Serving personnel continue to be uniquely disadvantaged by the pattern of their employment, which is not the case in other public sector schemes and marks them apart as a special case. I hope that the Minister will look favourably on the matter. He heard some of the forceful arguments that were advanced yesterday. I thought that they were persuasive and I hope that the Government will accept the new clauses.
      4.45 pm
      Joyce Quin: I first became interested in the issue covered by new clause 8 through the situation of a constituent who had married a serviceman who had retired from the service before 1976 and therefore fell foul of the subsequent changes, which were welcome in other respects but did not benefit her. Some cost would be involved in making the changes retrospective and I wondered whether my hon. Friend the Minister had any recent estimates of the likely cost. His predecessor wrote to me a couple of years ago and suggested a figure of —50 million. The number of people in such circumstances is likely to have fallen, and it would be useful to know whether any estimate has been made more recently.
      I do not wish to pre-empt my hon. Friend's response, but if he does not envisage a change in the law to allow retrospective claims, I wonder whether individual cases could be considered on grounds of hardship. The constituent I mentioned lives in straitened circumstances and I know that her late husband would have wanted her to have benefited from his pension. There are probably other hardship cases that should also be considered sympathetically.
      Mr. Hancock: I wish to associate myself and my colleagues with new clauses 7 and 8. There can be few hon. Members who have not deals with this issue at some stage in their parliamentary careers. The right hon. Member for Gateshead, East and Washington, West (Joyce Quin) mentioned the possibility of considering individual cases on hardship grounds. I have tried to make that happen in the past 20 years, but there is no flexibility in the system. Under the present regulations, the MOD cannot make payments to help widows of service personnel who do not fit the criteria for the receipt of pensions. Unfortunately, those widows have had to fall back on the good offices of the British Legion or other service-related charities for hardship grants.
      We are trying to give justice to those few people who were denied justice when the legislation was changed in the 1970s. New clause 8 would go some way towards doing so and the cost would be nowhere near the £50 million that was envisaged two years ago. The number of people who might be affected has diminished considerably in that time.
      New clause 7 would rectify the injustice faced by widows of those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of this nation. The costs involved are already
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      accounted for, because if the widow receiving a pension did not remarry, the MOD would have to continue to pay it. It is only when she marries that the MOD benefits. New clause 7 would merely put right a wrong that most of us have come across in our constituencies. Whether we are in government or opposition we have told our constituents that we sympathise with their case and will take it up. It is a question of natural justice and this is our opportunity to put it right. I am delighted to be associated with the new clauses and I hope that the Minister will welcome and support them.
      Mr. Caplin: I begin by telling my right hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, East and Washington, West (Joyce Quin) that the costs that she was given by my predecessor remain, broadly, the same. I shall be more than happy to receive written details from her about the individual case that she mentioned, to see whether the Department can offer her constituent any assistance. That offer is open to other Members, and the number of letters that I sign shows that they take it up regularly—many such Members are in the House this afternoon.
      The proposed new armed forces pension scheme includes provision for non-attributable widows' and widowers' pensions to be paid for life. Existing members can transfer to the new scheme if they want to benefit from that provision. The proposed new clause would cover existing widows and widowers who are not provided for—I accept that—in the new scheme.
      In the majority of public service schemes, non-attributable widows' and widowers' pensions cease on re-marriage but, as in the armed forces current scheme, can be reinstated on second widowhood or divorce if the individual is otherwise worse off financially than when first in receipt of their armed forces pension. Although we are able to make changes for the future under the new armed forces scheme, which, as I think the House now understands, will be paid for by adjusting benefits elsewhere, the change under the new clause would carry with it no offsetting saving. I have been working hard to ensure that I could give the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) some figures on the policy that he has just been announcing—he said that he was speaking for the official Opposition and that it was their policy. The cost of his retrospectivity proposal in year 1 would be £500 million, but I hear what he said about the Conservative policy and I shall return to it shortly.
      I shall speak briefly on new clause 8. It relates to rules for the current armed forces pension scheme, which are set out in prerogative instruments rather than in primary legislation. The new clause relates to widows who did not receive a widow's pension if their husbands served before 1978 and the marriage took place after their husbands left service. I accept what Jenny Green said yesterday at the event attended by the hon. Member for Aldershot and me, but that is how the armed forces often operated in those days. If I were to accept the new clause, such people would be provided with a pension from the date of introduction of the new scheme, but that would not include the widowers of post-retirement marriages.

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      The new clause proposes that the pension should be based on the length of service and final salary, as under the new scheme. However, the current scheme provides benefits, as the hon. Gentleman is well aware, based on representative pay and reckonable service.
      Mr. Howarth: Is that not changing? Under the new scheme the pension will be based on final salary; it is based on representative pay at present.
      Mr. Caplin: That is what I said. The current armed forces scheme is based on representative pay and reckonable service. The new scheme will be based on length of service and final salary. I was comparing the two schemes.
      Post-retirement widows' pensions were introduced in 1978 for service after 1978, following the introduction of the Social Security Pensions Act 1975. If my memory serves me right, the late Baroness Castle was responsible for that splendid piece of legislation, and we all know who her special adviser was at the time—our current Foreign Secretary.
      The change was introduced non-retrospectively in schemes across the public sector, so there is no distinction between servicemen and public sector employees in this instance. The cost of extending post-retirement widow and widowers' entitlement to all current and deferred pensioners would be more than £;50 million, according to our current calculations, as I indicated to my right hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, East and Washington, West. Such an extension would be contrary to the policy of successive Governments.
      In conclusion, the Conservative party had 18 years in power to deal with such issues, but it never once introduced a proposal in the House to do so. It now finds it convenient to do so—the convenience of opposition, the convenience of opportunism and the convenience of increasing public spending when it well knows that its shadow Chancellor is looking for major and significant cuts in the defence budget.
      Mr. Howarth: The Minister is completely wrong: there are no planned Tory cuts in defence expenditure, so he is just trying to mislead the public again. I am genuinely disappointed. It is very pleasant to see that the Secretary of State is now present.
      The Minister referred to the right hon. Member for Gateshead, East and Washington, West (Joyce Quin). who made a very useful contribution to these proceedings. He said that she should write to him, and he would try to do something about the case that she raised. He said that everyone is writing to him, saying, "Let's do something about this." Well, let us do something about it.
      The hon. Gentleman cannot stick £500 million on us because that figure is simply not true. The people who currently receive pensions are being paid by his Department. They cease to be paid if they remarry. I put it to him that he cannot quantify how many will elect to remarry, thereby forgoing the pension that they now receive. The Minister is adducing a disingenuous argument. My commitment to the House and to those in
      1560
      the country who are concerned about such matters is that the next Conservative Government will review the issue with a determination to do something about it.
      To accommodate some of those people, the Secretary of State introduced a new scheme to enable attributable widows to benefit if they remarry, but he did not do so by telling the House that there was a compensating cut elsewhere in his pension provision for our armed forces. He was not reslicing the cake; he was just providing a welcome addition. We welcome the fact that he has done that. We believe that the funds should be made available to meet the requirements, certainly given the 1.7 per cent. saving that the Government will make from rejigging the mortality and longevity issues.
      There is another, final point that I want to nail in what the Minister said. He keeps on saying it, and it is unfortunate that the Government keep on doing so because they believe in supporting our armed forces. As I said before the Secretary of State arrived, I believe that the Government have the interests of our armed forces at heart. I do not claim a monopoly of that for the Opposition. There are differences of view. Certain things could be done better than the Government are doing them, but I am not suggesting that they are cavalier about our armed forces. However, constantly to equate them with other public sector services and say that if we did something for the armed forces we would have to do it for everybody else is not acceptable. The public believe that our armed forces are different, and we do too. Most Members of Parliament, whatever their party, believe that the armed forces are different, and it is because of that, because their commitment to our country is unique, and because they put their lives on the line for our country—they are doing so as we speak— that we ought to give them the best that we can offer them. They certainly deserve that, and it is the very least that they are entitled to expect. It is the very least that we can do for our armed forces, and it is irrelevant to suggest that we must compare them with other public sector workers. If the current rules mean that we have to do so we should make special provision in law—
      It being Five o'clock, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded to put the Questions necessary to bring proceedings on consideration to a conclusion, pursuant to Order [22 January].
      Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. The House divided: Ayes 132, Noes 252.
      Question accordingly negatived.

    Schedule 1

      AMENDMENTS TO PENSIONS APPEAL TRIBUNALS ACT 1943
      Amendments made: No. 1, in page 7, line 43, leave out from second 'which,' to end of line 45 and insert
      'applications to a Commissioner for leave to appeal under this section must be made;'.
      No. 2, in page 7, line 46, leave out 'appeals and'.—[Mr. Caplin.]

    Schedule 3

      REPEALS
      Amendment made: No. 3, in page 12, line 7, at end insert—
      'Naval and Military War Pensions, Section 6.'.&c., Act 1915 (c. 83) —[Mr. Caplin.]
      Order for Third Reading read.
      5.15 pm
      Mr. Caplin: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
      I begin by thanking my hon. Friends the Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths) and for Normanton (Mr. O'Brien), who conducted affairs from the Chair during
      1564
      proceedings in Standing Committee. I thank the Under-Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Lammy), who dealt with the clauses relating to appeals tribunals on behalf of the Department for Constitutional Affairs. I thank the Clerks and officials in the Ministry of Defence who have been dealing with the Bill, in some cases for a long time.
      It has been a feature of our debates on Second Reading, in Standing Committee and again today that the armed forces, both regular and reserve, are held in the very highest regard throughout the House. Members on both sides of the House have rightly paid tribute to their professionalism, courage and skill. The Ministry of Defence is a good employer and as such we must make available high-quality conditions of service for service personnel. The new pension scheme does just that.
      Mr. Gerald Howarth: I take the slightly unconventional step of intervening on the Minister at this stage to associate myself entirely with what he just said to ensure that there is no doubt beyond these walls, especially among those serving in Iraq, that we hold our armed forces in the very high esteem that he described.
      Mr. Caplin: I am grateful for those comments.
      We had an interesting debate that centred on the new part of the arrangements following the announcement that I made last week in relation to the Armed Forces Pay Review Body. which will provide a regular external validation of the new pension scheme that will compare it with other schemes in the market. I am delighted that the chairman and members of the review body have agreed to take on such a task.
      Everyone who has been involved in our discussions will recall that concern was expressed that the Government should provide independent oversight of the arrangements provided for our armed forces in this respect. In Committee, I made it clear that I recognised the intent behind those concerns and that I would consider how best to respond on Report. Last week's announcement was made in response to those concerns, and I hope that today's debate has been helpful in highlighting the way in which the review body will deal with the matter. Its reviews will take place broadly every five years, but that does not preclude it from considering pensions issues if it feels that it should do so in the course of its normal work.
      We are in active communication with the review body to determine the details of how the system will work. We agreed it only in the past couple of weeks and I shall return to the House with a further statement when we have more details. I am confident, however, that the change will provide for more independence in reviewing the terms of the new pension scheme while helping us to ensure coherence across the broader remuneration package of pay and pensions. It should also provide additional reassurance for service personnel, and for Members of both Houses, by ensuring effective independent validation of the appropriateness of the pension provisions for our armed forces, including those

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      who choose to transfer to the new scheme and those who will be members from 6 April 2005, subject to the completion of the legislative process. I feel sure that hon. Members will acknowledge that that represents a major step forward in tackling the concerns that have been expressed in the past few months. It also addresses the desire for stronger controls in legislation over the scheme's benefit structure.
      Before I conclude, I want to be slightly partisan and present two challenges to the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth). I hope that he does not have a scripted speech because he might wish to respond. My first challenge is about benefits being payable on an equal basis, irrespective of sexuality. In Committee, he said:
      "My party's view was set out admirably by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex in the debate."
      He means Second Reading. He continued:
      "We shall have to see how the land lies when we come into government, and review the position at that point."—[Official Report. Standing Committee B, 10 February 2004; c. 143.]
      The hon. Gentleman has had three months to consider the matter. Does he stand by that comment or will he support the Bill and the equal benefits that it provides for all members of our armed forces?
      I shall outline my second challenge. The hon. Gentleman clearly supports the legacy issues, as he showed yesterday and a few moments ago. In Committee, I said that I would calculate the amount of public spending required and I have done that. The total for the first year is £661 million. Every subsequent year, he will need £127 million for the legacy proposals that he presented this afternoon. Does he intend to pursue that as Conservative policy? The equivalent of £661 million is, for example, the single living accommodation project and the service family accommodation upgrade project. They would both have to be abolished to cover the sort of funding that his proposal would require. He can either play the politics of opportunism in opposition or make a serious point at the Dispatch Box about the legacy issues that the Conservative party never tackled. I am sure that he will respond to those challenges.
      I am confident that the new schemes constitute a good deal for our service personnel: a pension scheme that is based on final salary, against the trend in the wider economy; a significant improvement to the benefits to widows and dependants; the introduction of common terms for officers and other ranks that also deal with equality issues; and a compensation scheme that focuses on the more severely injured and, for the first time, makes lump sum payments for pain and suffering. The chiefs of staff strongly welcome those aspects of the new arrangements. They perceive them to be an important part of a package that offers a high level of assurance to service personnel and their families, now and in future. The Bill is essential to providing the new schemes and I commend it to the House.
      5.23 pm
      Mr. Howarth: I note that the Under-Secretary is getting frightfully excited. He raised 'several issues—two in particular—with me. The Government have introduced changes that extend the benefits to unmarried partners and the Opposition have accepted that. I hope that that will allay his concerns on the matter.
      1566
      The Under-Secretary tried to stick on me a figure of £500 million a few moments ago, but it has now increased to £661 million. I knew that the Labour party was the master of inflation but that is excessive. He is the Under-Secretary and suggests that some of my proposals would cost £661 million. I do not recognise those figures and I do not believe that he will be able to justify them. He might be able to, however, and the House will look forward to his placing copies of his calculations in the Library.
      I made a specific point to the Minister—I am not going to let him get away with this—about extending the benefits to unattributable widows who remarry. He has no way of knowing how much that would cost, because it is impossible to quantify. He extended the benefits to attributable widows in 2000, but he never made any corresponding cuts to accommodate that. He knows very well that only a very small number of people are involved, and they are being paid at the moment. They cease to be paid when they remarry. He has no way of knowing how many would remarry, in the event of his acceding to our suggestion, so his objections are just ministerial bluster. He even suggested that the proposal would have to be funded by cancelling the single living accommodation improvements. He flagged up the fact that he was going to make a partisan point and he did not disappoint. The public outside will have noted it and I think that they expect our debate to be conducted on a slightly more elevated scale than that.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) said on Second Reading that we would not divide the House at that point, but that
      "we reserve our position and will judge the Government on any progress made in Committee."—[Official Report, 22 January 2004; Vol. 416, c. 1499.]
      We have now considered the Bill in Committee and only one change has been made. We welcome that change, and, along with the Minister, we wish the members of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body well in undertaking their enhanced remit. However, that change is modest and fails to deal as comprehensively with the needs of Her Majesty's armed forces, and those who have served, as the measures that we proposed in new clause 2—which the Minister would not accept— would have done.
      Furthermore, some of the criticisms levelled at the Bill by the Defence Committee, at the outset and subsequently, remain outstanding. Save for the one change that the Minister has made, there is nothing in the Bill that presents the House with any greater opportunity to scrutinise what is being proposed. It is an enabling Bill that gives unfettered power to the Secretary of State to draw up whatever pensions and compensation schemes he likes. The only scrutiny available to the House will be through a one-and-a-half-hour debate on the relevant statutory instrument, the detail of which will be unamendable. Our original criticisms, and those of others, therefore remain. The final details of the early departure payment scheme were not available on Second Reading. They were produced in Committee, which we welcome, but some of the original criticisms on that issue still stand.
      We judge the Bill by its ability to do justice to the men and women of Her Majesty's armed forces, who have given—and, as we speak, continue to give—outstanding

      1567
      service to our country. It is our view that their contract with the nation sets them apart from every other group in the country. Their commitment to lay down their lives in the defence of the people of these islands and of the wider interests of the United Kingdom places them in a wholly special category, deserving of the very best that the nation can give them. That means that they are, quite literally, a special case.
      We are therefore disappointed that the Government have not reflected that special status in the schemes that lie behind the Bill. Comparing their benefits with those available to "other public sector workers" betrays the Government's reluctance to distinguish sufficiently between the needs of the armed forces and of those operating elsewhere in essential public services. The burden of proof in compensation is one example of the Government's thinking that it is perfectly in order to apply tests
      "in line with the practice of other occupational pension schemes and the civil courts."
      This is not another occupational pension scheme. We believe that the scheme applied to Her Majesty's armed forces should start by being at least as good as those available elsewhere. That is why, for example, we welcome the improvement of the death-in-service benefit from one and a half to four times' salary.
      I hesitate to do so, but I hope that the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Rachel Squire) will forgive me if I quote from her speech on Second Reading.
      Mr. John Bercow: Read it out.
      Mr. Howarth: I genuinely do not wish to embarrass the hon. Lady, but I do wish to echo her words, and I think the House ought to reflect on them. She said:
      "On pensions, the proposals essentially amount to 'making ends meet'. We do not consider that that is what our highly valued and professional armed forces deserve … The proposals are based not on what the forces deserve, but how much money they get at present."—[0fficial Report, 22 January 2004; Vol. 416, c. 1507.]
      I therefore invite the House to decline to give the Bill a Third Reading. I invite the Government to address the serious concerns that have been expressed across the Floor of the House and to bring back a Bill that reflects the desire of our country to have the very best for those who are placing their lives on the line for our security. I can tell the Minister that, if he does not do so, there will be trouble in another place. I suspect that even if he gets his Bill tonight, this will not be the last he sees of it.
      5.31 pm
      Rachel Squire: I shall be brief because many hon. Members wish to speak.
      The Bill has been the focus of much attention from hon. Members and constituents, who have a commitment to and high regard for the standards and professionalism of our armed forces. They are also committed to providing one of the best possible schemes for pensions and compensation for former and current personnel.
      From the Bill's publication, my response has been mixed. I want to touch on the areas that I have always welcomed, the areas of continuing concern and the areas
      1568
      in which welcome progress has been made. First, I have always welcomed aspects of the Bill such as the effort to modernise pension and compensation arrangements in the armed forces, rather than never considering them at all, and the decision to put officers and other ranks on an equal footing so that all will be able to start accruing a pension as soon as they enlist and claim early departure benefits at the same age and after the same period of service.
      I also welcomed the improved provision for widows and other dependants, especially when the serviceperson has been killed in action; the introduction of benefits for unmarried partners; the focus of compensation payments on the most severely injured and disabled; and the establishment of an independent appeals system for contribution claims.
      That leads me on to mentioning some areas of continuing concern. The first is the cost-neutrality issue. I and others have deep reservations about a scheme that makes some improvements but seems to do so at the cost of others—improvements that appear to be paid for by armed services personnel. Many of us do not think that cost-neutrality should have set the framework for the scheme, leading to no more than a reshuffling of the pack. The scheme should not have been formulated on that basis. Rather, it should have been formulated on the basis of what our armed forces deserve.
      The second issue of concern is consultation and how it has been carried out with Parliament and with serving and retired personnel, their widows and families. The review of the scheme was announced in 1997. It started in 1998, yet here we are, six or seven years later, being asked to approve an enabling Bill.
      The time scale for implementation of the new schemes is very short: we are less than a year from new members and serving personnel having to make a complex choice between the existing scheme and the new scheme that the Bill will introduce by April 2007 at the latest.
      The Government have said that they will produce individual benefit statements for service personnel—I welcome the Minister's comments on that today—to enable them to make a choice. But we are still waiting for the computer system that will produce such statements. We do not know when that will happen and how we can ensure that all personnel are fully informed and able to get the best possible independent information on the new proposals before they are forced to make a choice. The third area of continuing concern regards the compensation payment scheme, changes to the burden of proof and the introduction of the time limit.
      In terms of progress made, I welcome the way in which the Government have listened to the concerns raised on both sides of the House, the information that we have had so far on the early departure scheme and the review by the Armed Forces Pay Review Body. I hope that the Minister's and the Ministry of Defence's continuing discussions with the chairman of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body will lead to improvements in those areas. I hope that the Minister and all involved will continue to listen and make further improvements. I and many others intend to continue to examine closely what is happening. I owe that commitment to former and current service personnel, their widows and their families.

      1569
      The pressures on our service personnel increase, as they continue to provide a core part of this country's and this Government's global influence. We all hope that they will live to have a long. healthy and happy retirement, but some die in the service of their country and others develop illness and injury. The Bill should recognise and reward their service, their sacrifice and that of their families, but it still only does so in part.
      5.37 pm
      Mr. Breed: May I put on record on behalf of Liberal Democrat Members our admiration and gratitude for all the services that the armed forces provide, especially at this time? As we discuss these issues — there is recognition across the House that they are very much a special case. Their commitment to us and to the country deserves an appropriate commitment to them.
      Although some welcome benefits have been included in the Bill, such as the increase in death-in-service benefits and the extension of dependants' benefits more widely and on more equal grounds, inevitably, there are a number of concerns, which the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Rachel Squire) has just mentioned, which we had hoped would have been grappled with in Committee. Although we welcome the slight improvement in respect of the wider remit of the pay review body, it is a great disappointment that some of the real substance of our concerns has not been met.
      What lies at the heart of that is the decision about cost neutrality, which has cast a shadow, over almost all our concerns. I said on Second Reading, and it was reiterated in Committee, that it was an unnecessary straitjacket to apply cost neutrality to the costs and budgets of the pension scheme rather than to extend it to the whole remuneration budget. The provisions for pay and pensions are inextricably linked, and it is unnecessary to impose such a tight constraint, which has a considerable effect in not being able to deal with some relatively small financial issues.
      I was interested when the Minister added up quickly the cost of the legacy issue. I had asked him for some figures previously, which could not be made available, but fairly instantaneously it became possible to work out precisely what next year and subsequent years were going to cost. I do not think that bandying such figures about is particularly helpful.
      The Minister then went further, saying that he was going to knock out single-person accommodation. That extends the whole issue of cost neutrality. Either cost neutrality means precisely that, or it affects the whole budget. What the Minister said did not exactly align itself with what he has said before. If the total budget were involved, we could presumably take money from that to deal with some of the legacy issues that a number of Members have mentioned. I hope that those issues will be re-examined in another place. Perhaps by that time actuarial figures will be available, so that a more comprehensive discussion can take place about the real costs in the cost-neutral stra tjacket that the Government have imposed on themselves.
      I am also concerned about the burden of proof and medical records. I think that the two issues are linked. Although the Standing Committee did not discuss medical records in detail, I mentioned then that one of my other responsibilities was lay membership of the
      1570
      General Medical Council. The GMC is often confronted with a lack of medical records. illegible medical records or incomplete medical records, but such records are a vital part of any case for compensation, whether or not the MOD is involved.
      I welcome the Minister's assurance that if the MOD cannot find the medical records and the claim seems reasonable it will accept the claim, but that does not exempt the MOD from ensuring that the best possible systems are there to ensure that all medical records are readily available and up to date. Given the proposed changes in the burden of proof, about which many of us are worried, the ability to put a proper case will depend much more on the medical records. Notwithstanding what the Minister has said, if the MOD is to help claimants to make a proper case—and we should bear in mind all the other problems with which it will have to deal—this matter will need proper attention.
      Nevertheless, Liberal Democrats welcome many of the benefits conferred by the Bill, particularly the compensation for unmarried partners. We have called for that and other measures for some time. We are prepared to support the Bill overall, but in the hope that further debate in the other place and further reflection by the MOD will deal with some of the long-standing legacy issues. I do not believe that that would cost anything near what the Minister has suggested, and I think that it would right wrongs that have existed for far too long.
      5.43 pm
      Hugh Robertson: One of the remarkable aspects of our debates on the Bill has been the degree of cross-party consensus. Let me record, in particular, my appreciation of the work of the Select Committee, which has enabled us to have a much more informed debate than we could have had otherwise.
      Much of the Bill is welcome. I am especially pleased about the commitment in the explanatory notes to the continuation of the final salary defined benefits scheme, which I think particularly appropriate to service in the armed forces. I also welcome the equal treatment afforded to officers and other ranks, while adding the caveat that it can only go so far, as the two groups have different levels of responsibility and exposure. I also greatly welcome the increase in death-in-service benefits, the increase in widows' benefits and the Minister's movement on the AFPRB. However, as I said earlier, I wish that he had gone further.
      As several hon. Members have said, it is fair to make the point that a number of issues remain of serious concern. The first is the fact that the Bill is only an enabling measure, but there is also the fact that the payment of pensions will be deferred from the age of 60 to 65. That is unfair when the retirement age remains at 55 and given that the increase in longevity is not yet five years.
      There is a lack of opportunity for anyone to earn a full career pension. If one serves until the age of 55, one will accrue 35/70ths and, if one adds on the lump sum, one can get only 62.5 per cent. of one's salary. That, of course, is in the best-case scenario.

      1571
      As other hon. Members have remarked, the impression runs through the Bill that it has been drawn up on a cost-neutral basis and not on the basis of what the armed forces deserve. As we heard earlier, there are also changes to the proof of entitlement to compensation. That is particularly damaging, because it is bound to encourage a compensation culture when the guiding principle should be that the United Kingdom owes a strict duty of care to those injured in the service of their country.
      I am afraid the impression remains that the one certain winner from all this will be the Treasury. It will benefit from cost neutrality. the deferment of the payment of pensions and, on top of that, the overall decrease in service numbers, which means that fewer pensions overall will have to be paid. Elements of the Bill have attracted adverse comment from bodies as diverse as the Defence Committee, the Forces Pension Society, to which we all owe a particular debt of gratitude, the Royal British Legion and a number of other veterans' organisations, including the widows who presented a petition in Committee Room 14 yesterday.
      The House has a special duty of care to the armed forces. Cost neutrality should not have been the basis of the review, because improvements in some areas are inevitably matched by savings elsewhere. At a time when our armed forces are so widely deployed and in so much danger, I believe that that is an entirely inappropriate message to send. On that basis, we shall vote against the Bill on Third Reading.
      5.47 pm
      Angus Robertson: I express the appreciation of the Scottish National party and Plaid Cymru for the work done by our servicemen and women. I also wish to put on record our commendation of the Government for certain changes in the Bill, not least the death-in-service lump sum, the widows' or widowers' pensions and what are known more generally as equality issues. Those are major improvements.
      It is disappointing, however, that improvements to the Armed Forces Pay Review Body, the burden of proof, full career pensions and widows' and partners' pensions that have been discussed in the context of the new clauses have not been taken on hoard. Any one of those reasons, or all of them collectively, would be enough for me to vote against Third Reading. However, I shall vote against Third Reading because of an issue that I raised on Second Reading and in discussion with Ministers. It relates to the impact of the early departure scheme.
      Ministers and other Members are aware that certain parts of the country. which have low-wage economies and which are dependent on the contribution that retired service personnel make, are underpinned by the current pension arrangements. Not long ago, I caught first sight of the figures. They were shared with the spokespeople for the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats, but not with the major opposition parties in Scotland or Wales or any of the political parties from Northern Ireland. I hope that the MOD will take that point on board when other important information is made available.
      1572
      In the letter to the Chairman of the Defence Committee, it was pointed out that, under the new scheme, annual payments to retired personnel under the early departure scheme would be halved. That will have a detrimental impact in my constituency and in many others. The Minister said earlier that no detailed work had been done on the question, and that fact alone is enough for me to vote against the Bill on Third Reading.
      5.50 pm
      Mr. Hancock: Every Member who has spoken has paid tribute to the men and women of our armed forces, and rightly so. We recognise the debt that the nation currently and historically owes to them. Today's debate has touched on many of the issues that this House has neglected to deal with in the past. We had an opportunity today to put right a number of wrongs, but we have chosen not to do so.
      Like others, I welcome the improvements made in respect of equality—long and hard have they been fought for—but we missed the opportunity to take the initiative, and to offer pension benefits to members of the Territorial Army who, in some cases, have been deployed on active service as frequently as three times in two years. That issue could and should have been recognised, and the Minister could have responded positively this afternoon. I regret the fact that we were unable to vote on it. It was worthy of voting on, so that the Government could measure the depth of feeling.
      This legislation is supposed to be complimentary to the men and women of our armed forces, and it is on compensation and the burden of proof that I draw a line in the sand. It is already extraordinarily difficult to fight the Ministry of Defence successfully in compensation cases: the burden of proof is already stacked against the individual concerned. The Minister suggested that the situation will improve, because medical records will be better kept and readily available, but in response to an intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for South-East Cornwall (Mr. Breed), he said that he was talking about the future, and that the many servicemen and women affected by Gulf War syndrome will not be covered. Their medical records do not exist, and they have no clear way forward in proving that the burden of proof lies with the MOD. We are going to make it incredibly difficult for people to fight cases in future. Even the Minister suggested that fewer claims for compensation will be made because of the way in which the burden of proof is being shifted. That must be reason enough not to vote for this legislation.
      I hope that there will be a significant vote against the Bill on Third Reading, and I shall join those Members who do so. I cannot possibly vote for the Bill, given that many of my constituents and others are already proving unsuccessful in making their compensation cases. Such claims should not be made even more difficult to make.
      We also missed an opportunity to put right the obvious mistake that was made with the widow's pension; indeed, we missed such opportunities in the 1970s, the 1980s and the early 1990s. Sad to say, despite the fact that every Member probably recognises the justice of the widows' and widowers' case, this Government have again failed to recognise the mood of the country, which is that the House should support such people, and that they should get what most reasonable people believe that they deserve.

      1573
      In common with other hon. Members, I welcome the movement that has been made, but sadly, there has been far too little of it for us to accept that the legislation is worthy of the men and women whom we have praised so highly here today. The measure of our support for them is not how often we pat them on the back when they are fighting on our behalf, but the way that we treat them throughout their careers and afterwards. It is also the way that we respect and treat their families when, tragically, our servicemen and women do not return from the actions that we have sent them on. I ask hon. Members to reject the Government's position and to put down a big marker by saying that the Bill is simply not good enough.
      Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—
      The House divided: Ayes 267, Noes 113.

      Division No. 163]

      [5:55 pm

      AYES

      Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

      Chaytor David

      Ainger, Nick

      Clapham, Michael

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

      Allen, Graham

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

      Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)

      Coaker, Vernon

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Atherton, Ms Candy

      Cohen, Harry

      Austin, John

      Coleman, Iain

      Bailey, Adrian

      Colman, Tony

      Banks, Tony

      Corston, Jean

      Barnes, Harry

      Cranston, Ross

      Barron, rh Kevin

      Crausby David

      Battle, John

      Cruddas, Jon

      Bayley, Hugh

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Beard, Nigel

      Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

      Begg, Miss Anne

      Darling, rh Alistair

      Bell, Sir Stuart

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Benton, Joe (Bootle)

      David, Wayne

      Berry, Roger

      Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

      Best, Harold

      Dawson Hilton

      Betts, Clive

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Blackman, Liz

      Denham, rh John

      Blizzard, Bob

      Dhanda, Parmjit

      Borrow, David

      Dismore Andrew

      Bradshaw, Ben

      Dobson, rh Frank

      Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      Breed, Colin

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      Brennan, Kevin

      Drown, Ms Julia

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

      Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

      Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Bryant, Chris

      Edwards, Huw

      Buck, Ms Karen

      Efford, Clive

      Burden, Richard

      Farrelly, Paul

      Burgon, Colin

      Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

      Burnham, Andy

      Fisher Mark

      Burstow, Paul

      Fitzpatrick, Jim

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Flint, Caroline

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

      Caborn, rh Richard

      Foster. Don (Bath)

      Cairns, David

      Foster. Michael (Worcester)

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

      Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)

      Foulkes, rh George

      Caplin, Ivor

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)

      Casale, Roger

      George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

      Caton, Martin

      Gerrard, Neil

      Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

      Gilroy, Linda

      Challen, Colin

      Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      1574

      Grogan, John

      Mandelson, rh Peter

      Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

      Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

      Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

      Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

      Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)

      Marshall-Andrews, Robert

      Martlew, Eric

      Healey. John

      Meacher, rh Michael

      Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

      Merron, Gillian

      Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

      Michael, rh Alun

      Hepburn, Stephen

      Milburn, rh Alan

      Hesford, Stephen

      Moffatt, Laura

      Heyes, David

      Moran, Margaret

      Hill, Keith (Streatham)

      Morgan, Julie

      Holmes, Paul

      Morley, Elliot

      Hoon, rh Geoffrey

      Mountford, Kali

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

      Howells, Dr. Kim

      Olner, Bill

      Hoyle, Lindsay

      O'Neill, Martin

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Organ, Diana

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Hutton, rh John

      Perham, Linda

      Iddon, Dr. Brian

      Picking, Anne

      Illsley, Eric

      Pickthall, Colin

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

      Pike, Peter (Burnley)

      Plaskitt, James

      Jamieson, David

      Pollard, Kerry

      Jenkins, Brian

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

      Pound, Stephen

      Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

      Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

      Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

      Kaufman, rh Gerald

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Keeble, Ms Sally

      Purnell, James

      Keen, Alan (Feltham)

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Kemp, Fraser

      Reed, Andy (Loughborough)

      Khabra, Piara S.

      Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

      Kidney, David

      Kilfoyle, Peter

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      King, Andy (Rugby)

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      Kumar, Dr. Ashok

      Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

      Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

      Ruddock, Joan

      Lamb, Norman

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      Lammy, David

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

      Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Salter, Martin

      Lepper, David

      Sarwar, Mohammad

      Leslie, Christopher

      Savidge, Malcolm

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Linton, Martin

      Sheridan, Jim

      Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

      Short, rh Clare

      Love, Andrew

      Simon, SiÔn (B'ham Erdington)

      Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

      Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

      Luke, Iain (Dundee E)

      Skinner, Dennis

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)

      McCabe, Stephen

      Smith, Angela (Basildon)

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

      MacDonald, Calum

      Soley, Clive

      McDonnell, John

      Speller, rh John

      MacDougall, John

      Squire, Rachel

      Mclsaac, Shona

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      McKechin, Ann

      Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

      McKenna, Rosemary

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Stoate, Dr. Howard

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

      McWalter, Tony

      Stunell, Andrew

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Sutcliffe, Gerry

      Mallaber, Judy

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      1575

      Thurso, John

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

      Willis, Phil

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Wills, Michael

      Trickett, Jon

      Wilson, Brian

      Truswell, Paul

      Winnick, David

      Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)

      Woolas, Phil

      Worthington, Tony

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

      Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Wright, David (Telford)

      Ward, Claire

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Wyatt, Derek

      Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

      White, Brian

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Charlotte Atkins and

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Mr. John Heppell

      NOES

      Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

      Clappison, James

      Amess, David

      Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Arbuthnot, rh James

      Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

      Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

      Collins, Tim

      Bacon, Richard

      Conway, Derek

      Baldry, Tony

      Cormack, Sir Patrick

      Barker, Gregory

      Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

      Baron, John (Billericay)

      Bellingham, Henry

      Djanogly, Jonathan

      Bercow, John

      Duncan, Alan (Rutland)

      Blunt, Crispin

      Evans, Nigel

      Boswell, Tim

      Fabricant, Michael

      Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

      Fallon, Michael

      Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey)

      Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)

      Brady, Graham

      Flight, Howard

      Brazier, Julian

      Forth, rh Eric

      Browning, Mrs Angela

      Fox, Dr. Liam

      Burns, Simon

      Francois, Mark

      Burt, Alistair

      Gale, Roger (N Thanet)

      Butterfill, Sir John

      Gamier, Edward

      Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

      Grayling, Chris

      Green, Damian (Ashford)

      Chope, Christopher

      Grieve, Dominic

      1576

      Gummer, rh John

      Robathan, Andrew

      Hancock, Mike

      Robertson, Angus (Moray)

      Hayes, John (S Holland)

      Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)

      Heald, Oliver

      Hendry, Charles

      Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

      Hoban, Mark (Fareham)

      Rosindell, Andrew

      Hogg, rh Douglas

      Ruffley, David

      Horam, John (Orpington)

      Sayeed, Jonathan

      Howard, rh Michael

      Selous, Andrew

      Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

      Shepherd, rh Mrs Gillian

      Jack, rh Michael

      Simmonds, Mark

      Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

      Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

      Laing, Mrs Eleanor

      Spicer, Sir Michael

      Lait, Mrs Jacqui

      Spink, Bob (Castle Point)

      Lansley, Andrew

      Spring, Richard

      Leigh, Edward

      Stanley, rh Sir John

      Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)

      Steen, Anthony

      Liddell-Grainger, Ian

      Streeter, Gary

      Loughton, Tim

      Syms, Robert

      Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

      Taylor, Ian (Esher)

      Mackay, rh Andrew

      Taylor, John (Solihull)

      Maclean, rh David

      Taylor, Sir Teddy

      McLoughlin, Patrick

      Tredinnick, David

      Malins, Humfrey

      Viggers, Peter

      Maples, John

      Waterson, Nigel

      Mates, Michael

      Watkinson, Angela

      May, Mrs Theresa

      Whittingdale, John

      Mercer, Patrick

      Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

      Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

      Wiggin, Bill

      Wilkinson, John

      Murrison, Dr. Andrew

      Wilshire, David

      Norman, Archie

      Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

      Osborne, George (Tatton)

      Winterton, Sir Nicholas

      Ottaway, Richard

      (Macclesfield)

      Page, Richard

      Paice, James

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Portillo, rh Michael

      Mr. Hugo Swire and

      Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

      Mr. John Randall

      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Bill read the Third time, and passed.

  Maajid Nawaz
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Kemp.]
  6.9 pm
  Mr. David Amess: Maajid Nawaz, Ian Nisbet and Reza Pankhurst, together with their families, are very grateful to Mr. Speaker for giving me the opportunity of raising in the House their imprisonment in Cairo for the last two and a half years.
  Constituents constantly bring their problems to Members of Parliament and it is nit usually the role of an MP to decide whether a constituent is right or wrong on the issue they raise. I see the role of a Member of Parliament as enabling fair play—to ensure that the issues constituents bring to our attention are dealt with fairly. That is what my parliamentary colleagues and I are trying to do.
  There are two fundamental issues in this case. First, are the three men guilty or innocent? I believe that they are innocent. Secondly, if they are guilty, is the five-year prison sentence that they have been given a fair one? On every conceivable analysis, that sentence is not fair.
  Mrs. Abi Nawaz, the mother of my constituent, first came to see me in April 2002. Since then, I and my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell), the hon. Member for West Ham (Mr. Banks) and the Minister for Energy, E-Commerce and Postal Services, the hon. Member for East Ham (Mr. Timms), have done everything we possibly could to support our constituents and obtain justice for them.
  Maajid was in Egypt as part of his university course, because he was required to spend a year in either Egypt or Syria. It is ironic that he chose Egypt because he thought it would be the safer of the two countries. How wrong he was.
  My colleagues and I have raised the plight of the men detained in Egypt on several occasions in the House. We held an Adjournment debate on 5 November 2002. We have put questions to the Prime Minister and to the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. We held meetings with Baroness Amos, when she had responsibility for middle eastern affairs, and with her successor Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean. We also held a meeting with the Egyptian ambassador. I am especially pleased that Mr. Speaker selected this subject for debate this evening, because on Tuesday my colleagues and I will meet the Foreign Secretary, when we shall outline why we want the Prime Minister to make a plea for clemency to President Mubarak.
  Time has certainly run out for those men. The three were arrested on 1 April 2002, accused of belonging to the Islamic Liberation Movement. Maajid is a member of the Islamic Liberation party, which is not proscribed and, as I said in 2002, that is at the heart of the problem. After a long trial and a delay in delivering the verdict—the verdict was delayed twice, which was cruel beyond belief—on 25 March they were sentenced to five years in prison.
  Maajid was arrested at 3 am on 1 April 2002, without a warrant. He was taken from his house at gunpoint, an experience that was extremely frightening, as anyone
  1578
  can understand. His wife was left at the house with their child and had no way of getting in touch with the outside world. Maajid's mother could not be contacted, as her telephone had been disconnected. Furthermore, his wife could not speak Egyptian so she was in complete isolation and very frightened. That in itself is an issue for the Government to address.
  On 18 December 2003—shortly before the original date for the delivery of the verdict, which was Christmas day—I visited Maajid and his fellow detainees in prison in Cairo. The Egyptian authorities were extremely accommodating to the visit, and I praise the way that the embassy dealt with the situation. I was given full access. We had a full and frank discussion about what had taken place since April 2002, and I make no complaint about their treatment then.
  After the arrest on 1 April, however, the men, along with a fourth Briton, Hassan Rizvi, who was later released, were held for 10 days at the state security intelligence premises—this is the real issue—where torture is commonplace. They were threatened, blindfolded, tied up with rope and deprived of sleep. They had to share blankets to keep warm, and they ate with their hands tied in front of them. I do not think that they were lying to me; I think that that is the truth, and I believe that they were treated like dogs.
  The rub for the Government in terms of my asking for a plea for clemency is that their confessions were extracted under duress. Maajid was then denied access to the British consul for roughly a week, and he was denied access to lawyers for a month and a half, so I believe that Egypt was in direct contravention of the Vienna convention on consular relations.
  The three men were found guilty on three charges. Bizarrely, the three men were not all found guilty on all three charges, but they were all given the same sentence—five years. Again, that is extraordinary. On the first charge, they were found guilty of
  "promoting by speech or writing the goals of a group founded in violation of the provision of the law—the Islamic Liberation Party, which calls for dispensing with the constitution and laws, preventing the state institutions from performing their work, promoting among themselves and others the group's call for considering the ruling regime as oppressive and rising against it, with a view to destabilising a state based on Islamic teachings."
  On the second charge, two of the men were found guilty of
  "possessing printed literature promoting the Islamic Liberation Movement's message and of distributing the literature and showing it to others."
  On the third charge, one was found guilty of
  "possessing a printing instrument, a computer, which would be used for propagating the Islamic Liberation Movement's message."
  I believe their total innocence in this matter, but even if they were guilty—I do not believe that they are guilty—to sentence them to five years in prison is totally outrageous and, again, a further reason why a plea for clemency should be made.
  The trial was heard by the Emergency Supreme State Security Court in Cairo. The whole trial was absolutely bizarre, with 24 men brought into the court in a cage. Refreshments were served during the trial. Some of the

  1579
  detainees were ill. It did not compare to the way that trials are held in this country. That is an exceptional court, and I believe that it violates international fair trial standards and denies defendants the right to appeal against a verdict. During the trial, the men were not allowed interpreters or bail. The prosecution failed to disclose evidence and had to be ordered to do so by the judge.
  After visiting Maajid in prison in Cairo and being in regular contact with his mother, a huge campaign has been mounted to support the plea for clemency, which must be made in a short time. I have received letters from the headmasters of the school that Maajid attended—Westcliff high school for boys— and support from Westcliff high school for girls. I have been inundated with letters supporting a plea for clemency. Chalkwell Group of Churches and Churches Together in Southend have assisted me in getting religious ministers to write to President Mubarak to support the plea for clemency.
  I have also received support from Amnesty International, which recognises that Maajid Nawaz, Ian Nisbet and Reza Pankhurst are prisoners of conscience, convicted solely for their peacefully held views. Amnesty International is calling for them to be set free without conditions. I also pray in aid the Jubilee Campaign, which also supports the plea for clemency. According to the human rights annual report 2003, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has supported 11 appeals for clemency. The Minister for Trade and Investment, who will respond to this debate, will be aware that about 2,500 British subjects are held in prisons throughout the world. It would be irresponsible of the Government to support every Member of Parliament who wanted a clemency plea to be made on behalf of a constituent, but my parliamentary colleagues and I would not have spent two and a half years constantly raising this case if we did not fundamentally believe that our constituents are innocent. The criteria for clemency were established for 2001, and the grounds on which Maajid and his fellow detainees qualify are compassion and medical reasons. Other criteria are prima facie evidence of a miscarriage of justice and cases where the prisoner is a minor. Our constituents qualify for clemency on each of those criteria.
  I had an opportunity to speak to Maajid's mother before this debate, and she told me in great detail how he and his fellow detainees felt about the present situation. It appears that their mail is being tampered with, and it takes a long time for them to receive any. However, I would like to share with the House a tiny extract of a letter from Maajid to his mother:
  "I have finally met Rabia and Ammaar"—
  his wife and child—
  "I can't describe all the emotions that I felt, and continue to feel upon seeing them. Initially, I was overwhelmed by the whole experience, as if it wasn't real. I'd finally got to see my wife and child after two years of separation, it was almost surreal. Then, I felt absolute joy at being able to sit and talk with them, something that is usually taken for granted, and being in their company made all my troubles seem to go away."
  Maajid and his two fellow detainees are very emotional about their present situation, as everyone in the House can understand. They have suffered a terrible
  1580
  ordeal, and I urge the Minister to take action, as time is running out for these young men with young families. The only person who can help now is our Prime Minister. We have excellent relations with Egypt. As responsible parliamentarians, we want terrorism to be defeated in all its many forms. That is not a trivial matter, but it would be a huge miscarriage of justice if those three British subjects became innocent victims and were unfairly used as an example. I therefore urge the Minister to reflect on the situation, talk to the Foreign Secretary before our meeting on Tuesday and support the request from my parliamentary colleagues and myself for the Prime Minister to make a plea for clemency on behalf of our constituents so that we can ensure that justice is done and they are released from prison in Cairo as soon as possible.
  6.24 pm
  The Minister for Trade and Investment (Mr. Mike O'Brien):I congratulate the hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Amess) on securing this debate on Maajid Nawaz, a British national detained in Egypt. I welcome the opportunity once again to set out the assistance that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has provided to Maajid Nawaz and the other two British nationals who remain in detention in connection with this case.
  On 1 April 2002, Maajid Nawaz, a student at the university of Alexandria, was arrested along with three other British nationals. The men had been arrested under emergency laws and were accused, along with a number of Egyptian nationals, of being involved in the revival of the Islamic Liberation party, also known as Hizb ut-Tahrir. British embassy officials in Cairo immediately sought confirmation of the arrests from the local authorities and sought consular access.
  Our consul and vice-consul were allowed to visit Maajid Nawaz and the other detainees on 11 April 2002. Every effort was made to secure information on the judicial process under which the men would be prosecuted. Our ambassador met senior Government officials to seek information. My right hon. Friend Baroness Amos, the then Under-Secretary of State with responsibility for consular matters, met the Egyptian ambassador to London to raise our concerns. Subsequently I made representations on a visit to Egypt and met senior Government representatives there. From April 2002 we pressed at various levels, including at a high level, for the Egyptians to charge or release the men. On 4 August 2002 it was announced that Maajid and the others were to face charges, and that Hassan Rizvi was to be released.
  The trial was held in an emergency high state security court. There were a number of delays and adjournments throughout the trial process. In July 2003 the judge adjourned proceedings and said that he would announce the verdict on 25 December 2003. However, on 25 December 2003 the judge announced a further adjournment until 25 March 2004.
  I should make it clear that we do not normally interfere with the judicial processes of another country. The courts are an independent body, or ought to be, and adjournments are a judge's decision. However, we have

  1581
  sympathy with the deep frustration and disappointment of the men and their families at the delays and adjournments in this case. Ministers and senior embassy officials in Cairo made our concerns clear to the Egyptian authorities and urged that the trial be brought to a conclusion as soon as possible.
  My right hon. Friend Baroness Symons wrote to the Egyptian Foreign Minister, Ahmed Maher, in January 2004 to express her concern at the length of time it was taking to conclude the case and to seek some reassurance that a verdict would be given at the next court hearing on 25 March. We also made it clear that there were Members of our Parliament who took a keen interest in the case and were determined to ensure that the concerns of their constituents were brought to the notice of the British Government, and that we did our duty in bringing them to the notice of the Egyptian Government. I congratulate the hon. Gentlemen and others who have made the case so forcefully on behalf of their constituents.
  Our ambassador in Cairo listed our concerns with Ahmed Maher and emphasised the importance that we attached to a decision at the next court hearing. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary also raised our concerns during a telephone conversation with Ahmed Maher in January 2004. On 25 March 2004 the judge delivered his verdict. Maajid Nawaz, Ian Nisbet and Reza Pankhurst were sentenced to five years. That includes time already served. Under the Egyptian legal system we understand that the men are eligible for release in or about December 2005.
  I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman's request for the Government to campaign for Maajid Nawaz's release and for my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to make representations to the Egyptian President. We have considered that. Our view remains that it would be inappropriate for the Government to consider raising concerns that we may have about the verdict until we have a clear understanding of the judge's summation. We need to know the legal and factual basis upon which the men were convicted in order to put a considered argument to the Egyptian authorities.
  We understand that the judge has now issued a summation of his verdict, which has been passed to the President for ratification, and that the men are considering their options in consultation with their Egyptian lawyer. One of the issues that it would be helpful to explore at next week's meeting is whether the families plan to appeal to the President, whether it is appropriate for the British Government to make representations on the back of that appeal or whether it is appropriate for the British Government to make representations and for the families to decide separately how they should deal with their legal rights. Those matters need clarification, and I understand that the families are currently taking legal advice, which they should obviously do.
  I now want to turn to the allegations of mistreatment and torture. During the first visit by consular officials, we were concerned to learn that Maajid and the other men alleged that they were mistreated and tortured in the initial days of their detention. We take all allegations of torture and mistreatment seriously and raised our
  1582
  concerns about the allegations as soon as we learned of them, and we have continued to raise our concerns at a high level within the Egyptian Government. Ministers and senior officials asked for an investigation into the allegations and for the men to be allowed access to an independent medical examination.
  In September 2002, the Egyptian prosecutor general told our ambassador in Cairo that he had been asked to conduct an investigation into the allegations. During a court session in October 2002, the judge read out a statement from a forensic medical examiner, which said that there was no evidence apparent on Reza Pankhurst's body to support the allegations that he had been tortured. In November 2002, the Egyptian Foreign Minister informed my noble Friend Baroness Amos that the authorities had concluded that there was no medical evidence to support the allegations. We considered that response to be unsatisfactory. Ministers and officials continue to raise concerns that this issue has still not been fully addressed or satisfactorily investigated.
  Throughout the men's detention, we have been active in trying to ensure their welfare. Since their arrest, the men and their relatives have raised concerns about prison conditions. Through representations by Ministers, senior officials and consular staff, and by working with the families, we have succeeded in getting more benefits for the men than would normally be allowed in the Egyptian system, including access to reading material, radio and television. The men can also make phone calls to their relatives during consular visits, which is usually strictly against rules. The men are due to be moved to newly refurbished cells in the near future, and we also achieved significant improvement in the transport conditions from the prison to the courts. We have made regular consular visits to the men, kept in close touch with their families in the UK and in Egypt, and have helped facilitate family visits on a number of occasions.
  In conclusion, I would like to reassure the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members who have constituency interests in the matter that Ministers in London and senior Foreign and Commonwealth Office officials in Cairo have taken a close personal interest in this case and have been actively involved since the men were first detained. The case has received considerable ministerial and senior official attention, and senior Ministers in the Egyptian Government and their officials can be in no doubt about the seriousness with which we regard this case.
  Consular staff in Cairo have worked extremely hard to ensure that we have done all that we properly can to assist Mr. Nawaz and the other men since their detention on 1 April 2002. We have raised the case at every possible opportunity and will continue to do so. In London, our consular directorate has tried to maintain close relationships with the families. The meeting on 11 May will involve hon. Members, the families and other representatives, and we hope that it will be an opportunity to discuss how we can move forward given the verdicts.
  The matter is difficult because we need to seek the cooperation and assistance of the Egyptian authorities, but we have also made clear our particular concerns about how the matter was dealt with. Our public

  1583
  comments have therefore been balanced, and I know that the hon. Gentleman understands that point. We will continue to press the Egyptian authorities for a full and satisfactory response on the allegations of torture and mistreatment. We have done quite a lot for those
  1584
  men, which is right in view of the nature of the case. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we will continue to do all that we properly can for Maajid Nawaz and the other two men who have been detained.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes to Seven o'clock.