Commons Sitting of 18 November 2003

Preamble
The House met at half-past Eleven o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  TRANSAS GROUP BILL
  Order for consideration of Lords amendments read. Lords amendments agreed to.

  LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES BILL [Lords]
  Order for consideration, as amended, read.
  To be considered on Tuesday 2 December.

Oral Answers to Questions
  TRANSPORT
  The Secretary of State was asked—
  TRANSPORT

    Disabled Access
    Linda Perham: What recent discussions his Department has had with (a) other Government Departments, (b) transport network operators, (c) transport authorities and (d) passenger groups on measures to ensure that public transport networks are accessible for disabled people. [138853]
    The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Dr. Kim Howells): The Department has frequent discussions with industry, passenger representatives and other stakeholders about improving access to transport for disabled people. In addition, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty), is giving evidence tomorrow to the Transport Committee inquiry on disabled people's access to transport.
    Linda Perham: The Minister may be aware that the recent "Mind the Gap" report by the disability charity Leonard Cheshire demonstrates the difficulties that disabled people face in gaining access to work and public services as a result of inaccessible transport. When will the Government announce their response to last year's consultation on the removal of the current exemptions for transport providers from the Disability Discrimination Act 1995? Can he assure the House that
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    the Department is moving quickly to ensure that transport does not continue to be a major barrier to the social inclusion of disabled people?
    Dr. Howells: I thank my hon. Friend for raising that and know that she has done a great deal of work with the Leonard Cheshire Foundation on the issue. The recent consultation on applying part 3 of the DDA to transport services was intended to help us formulate the necessary changes in legislation to implement the Disability Rights Task Force recommendation, which we have accepted. Those changes will form part of the draft disability Bill that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions will publish before the end of the year for pre-legislative scrutiny. We will not publish a separate response to the consultation.
    Mr. Greg Knight: Does the Minister accept that the Opposition will support genuine and workable proposals to make public transport more accessible to the disabled? Does he share my anger, however, that earlier this year two disabled pensioners travelling together had to cancel a holiday in my constituency because the train company concerned would take only one wheelchair at a time on each train? Is not that a disgrace? Will he join me in congratulating another train company, First Great Western, on implementing its disabled persons protection policy, which covers problems facing the disabled while travelling and will improve facilities at every one of that company's 14 railway stations?
    Dr. Howells: First, I welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his new position on the Front Bench. It is good to see him there. We need jazz drummers in every position that we can get them.
    I share the right hon. Gentleman's anger and concern at the behaviour of the train company in question. He makes a good point in raising that. I also share his pleasure in seeing First Great Western take that very important initiative. Between 9 million and 11 million people are registered with some form of disability in this country. In addition to the duty to ensure that they have access to transport, companies should wake up to the fact that there is a huge commercial market to serve.
    Mr. Roger Berry: My hon. Friend referred to recommendations by the Disability Rights Task Force that transport should be included in the Disability Discrimination Act. I welcome his assurance that that will be done. Another recommendation was that there should be end dates for all rail vehicles to be accessible to the disabled. What are those end dates?
    Dr. Howells: My hon. Friend is well known for his work for many years on behalf of disabled groups, and he raises an important issue. He knows that the Government have already introduced regulations under the DDA to ensure that new buses and trains are accessible to disabled people. Last month, we announced our proposals for implementing the taxi provisions. Significant progress has already been made. For example, in the past two and a half years, 1,400 fully accessible new vehicles have been introduced on the railways, and there will be more than 1,000 more in the next 18 months. More than one third of buses are

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    already accessible, and the proportion is much higher in many major towns and cities. However, I take his point: we must ensure that access is as complete as is possible and practicable.
    Mr. Andrew Turner: Does the Minister think it appropriate that a vehicle should be described as wheelchair-accessible when a constituent of mine, who is a sixth former at Cowes high school and 5 ft 10 in, has to bow his head to sit in it in his wheelchair? Peugeot Eurotaxis have only 54 in of headroom, Volkswagen Transporters have 53.5 in, Mercedes Vitos have 52 in and the standard Ford Transit has only 52 in. Does not he believe that anyone in a wheelchair should be able to sit upright in a wheelchair-accessible vehicle?
    Dr. Howells: If the hon. Gentleman will do me a favour and send me those details, I shall try to take up the matter with the manufacturers.

    Bus Services
    2. Mr. John Grogan: What plans he has to increase the regulation of bus services. [138854]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Tony McNulty): The current statutory framework for bus services is set out in the Transport Act 2000. As with all other legislation, the Government are keeping the position under review.
    Mr. Grogan: Since our good friend Ken, Mayor of London, is trusted to set fares, timetables and routes in the capital city, where bus use is increasing, why cannot councillors from the great northern cities of Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle and York be trusted to do the same? Surely the interests of bus passengers must come above those of bus companies, which make a rate of return of 14 per cent. outside London but 6 per cent. in London.
    Mr. McNulty: My hon. Friend knows that transport in London has been treated differently from that in the rest of the country since the 1930s. Our key role is to drive up standards and encourage more people to use buses. The key to that under any regulatory framework is a better partnership between operators and local authorities. In many areas, we have creative operators who do a good job with their local authorities under inspired political leadership. Sadly, that is not the case in many areas. We are considering that, and we work with areas constantly.
    John Thurso: Given that bus ridership outside London has fallen by 4 per cent. since 1999, does the Under-Secretary agree with the director general of Nexus, who said:
    "Letting the market decide what the bus network should look like frankly hasn't worked."?
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    Although no one would wish to return to pre-1985 regulation, is not it time to introduce a controlled market to allow for properly integrated transport to deliver the ridership figures that we all want and that the Government promised?
    Mr. McNulty: As ever with the Liberal Democrats, the premise is flawed and wrong. Bus patronage has not decreased but increased. Constantly to talk down such a key mode of transport, which opens access to parts of our towns and cities that other forms cannot, is to do a disservice to transport. Bus patronage has increased in Cambridge by 8 per cent., in York by 7 per cent., in Bolton by 4 per cent. and in Leeds and Nottingham by 3 per cent. The picture is not the one of doom and gloom that the dreary Liberal Democrats paint time and again.
    Mr. Colin Challen: The village of Thorpe in my constituency may not be as large as London, but the bus service is much worse, especially No. 130, which regularly fails to get its passengers on hoard because it does not turn up. I often write to my excellent passenger transport authority about the problem, but it always replies that the bus service is a commercial service and there is little that it can do. When will we tell bus companies that they provide a public service, not simply a private profit-making service for themselves?
    Mr. McNulty: My hon. Friend makes a fair point. I confess that I know nothing about the 130 that runs through his constituency, but I recently had a meeting with representatives of all the PTAs and they accepted that there were difficulties. Matters therefore remain under review, and there is much further to go in the existing regulatory framework. Simply reverting to the pre-1985 position is not the answer in the collective opinion of operators and local authorities.

    Roads Expenditure (Sussex)
    Tim Loughton: How much has been spent in capital terms on (a) motorways and (b) trunk roads in Sussex since 1997; and how much this represents as a percentage of overall expenditure on motorways and trunk roads in England. [138855]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Tony McNulty): On the basis of information available since April 1999, capital expenditure on motorways and trunk roads in Sussex amounts to £1.5million and £34.7million respectively. In total this represents some 2 per cent. of the Highways Agency's overall capital expenditure on motorways and trunk roads in the same period, and by pure coincidence—these things are not done on a pro rata basis—Sussex has 2.1 per cent. of the country's motorways and trunk roads.
    Tim Loughton: In other words, not a lot. People can drive all the way from Newcastle to Sussex on motorways or dual carriageways until they hit my constituency, where they will find single-lane gridlock

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    on the A27. We have about five miles of motorway in the whole of Sussex. In 1997, the hon. Gentleman's Government dropped every trunk road improvement scheme in Sussex, and now he has dropped any plans to provide bypasses around Worthing, Lancing and Arundel. Yet his Government want to subject West Sussex to another 46,000 homes, which will only add to the gridlock. When is Sussex going to get its fair share of road investment?
    Mr. McNulty: I am tempted to say, when it gets a rather better quality of parliamentary representation. The hon. Gentleman will know that I have had successive meetings about the A27 with West Sussex, the South East England Regional Assembly, the South East England Development Agency, and with the hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Mr. Flight). I have still to have a meeting with the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson). I have had six or seven meetings about the A27, at which Conservative party members overall, whether local councillors or MPs, have been very serious about working with us and the Highways Agency to resolve the situation, rather than sitting on the sidelines throwing rocks as the hon. Gentleman is doing. Perhaps he should be a bit more positive in his approach.
    Gregory Barker: The Minister might know that my constituency is particularly poorly served in this regard, having practically no dual carriageways at all. However, there is one small stretch in Bexhill, the King Offa way, which is notoriously unsafe—in fact, it is extremely dangerous. Six months ago, there was yet another fatal crash, the second in as many months, after which the Highways Agency recommended a string of improvements, including a crash barrier, better speed signs, barriers on the central reservation and a speed camera. Six months on, however, nothing has been done, and the Highways Agency tells us that it is very unlikely that anything will be done in 2004 because of the cash crisis in Kent and Sussex. Given that there has been yet another accident, what does the Minister intend to do?
    Mr. McNulty: The hon. Gentleman makes a serious point. We have asked East Sussex to develop proposals for the Bexhill to Hastings link road, through the local transport plan process. We fully accept, however, that there are real difficulties along the entire south coast. All that we have said thus far is that the solutions that came up in the south coast multi-modal study were not appropriate. We are looking very seriously at each of the problems along the A27 with the Highways Agency, and we have a time frame within which to do that. We are seeking to resolve those problems, and I will be happy to meet the hon. Gentleman to discuss the Bexhill issue specifically.

    Air Transport (Energy Efficiency)
    Mr. Jim Cunningham: What estimate he has made of the energy efficiency of (a) high-speed train travel and (b) short-haul flights for journeys (i) within the United Kingdom and (ii) between the United Kingdom and France. [138856]
    The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Alistair Darling): I am aware there have been a number of studies, but with no firm conclusions.
    Mr. Jim Cunningham: I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Does he agree that if there were synchronisation between rail and air travel in the advance booking systems, more people would use the rail services?
    Mr. Darling: I agree that it is important to provide people with better choice in transport, and I can tell my hon. Friend that, once the first phase of the west coast modernisation is complete next year, journey times between Birmingham and London, for example, will come down to just over one hour and 20 minutes, and between Manchester and London to just over two hours. Those journey times will provide a favourable choice compared with travelling by air. In relation to domestic journeys and those made using the new channel tunnel rail link, I believe that rail can offer a very good choice, providing a faster journey. The key is to ensure that it is reliable as well.
    Mr. John Wilkinson: Will the Secretary of State come to one firm conclusion now—namely that RAF Northolt should be eliminated from the review on airport facilities in the south-east of England for short-haul operations? The airfield is far too small, it is in a highly built-up area, and I am sure that his ministerial colleague, the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty) would concur that there would be fury from local residents if short-haul scheduled services were permitted there.
    Mr. Darling: I have made it clear on a number of occasions that we will deal with all airports in the aviation White Paper, which we will publish next month. The hon. Gentleman will just have to wait and see what our conclusions are.
    Mr. Lindsay Hoyle: Obviously we welcome my right hon. Friend's comments on using the tunnel. I think that it is a benefit, but it ought to be a benefit for all in the UK. Will he try to ensure that there are direct links from the north-west to give us the same service and benefits that people get in the south-west and the south-east?
    Mr. Darling: My hon. Friend makes a good point. The first stage of the channel tunnel rail link was opened in September, and I am pleased to tell the House that today the Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty), was able to present a bouquet of flowers to the millionth passenger to use that service since then. [HON. MEMBERS: Ooh!] I understand that the reaction of the passenger was just the same as

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    that of hon. Members, and that the upgrade to first class was probably more greatly appreciated than the opportunity to meet my hon. Friend.
    The point is that the channel tunnel rail link means that journey times between London and Paris and Brussels are reduced, and that the journey between London and Paris will come down to two and a half hours when the project is completed in 2007. When the route runs through to St. Pancras, it will allow for far better connections to the rest of the country. As I was saying a moment ago, that will provide a better choice for passengers wishing to go to the continent. It does not, of course, get round the point that it is likely that the demand for air travel—not just to Europe, but to other parts of the country—will continue to grow as well. That is one of the things that we have to consider as we reach our conclusions in relation to aviation.

    Strategic Rail Authority
    Mr. Patrick McLoughlin: If he will make a statement on the Strategic Rail Authority's strategic plan 2003. [138858]
    The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Alistair Darling): The Strategic Rail Authority published its 2003 strategic plan in January of this year. It sets out the way in which the authority will work towards the Government's goals on the railway.
    Mr. McLoughlin: I have given the Secretary of State notice of this question: why in 2002 did the SRA's plan talk about East Midlands Parkway station opening in 2003? His predecessor wrote to me shortly after that, saying:
    "I understand from the SRA that the May 2003 opening date given in the Strategic Plan was an inadvertent error. May 2003 is the deadline in the franchise by which Midland Mainline can be required to have obtained all the necessary consents, permissions and rights over land to construct the station. Construction might then take about a year."
    That takes us to May 2004. So far, it does not look like any work is happening on that station. Can the Secretary of State give us the latest information?
    Mr. Darling: The hon. Gentleman has a perfectly good point. I am grateful to him for having told me earlier this morning of the problems in relation to this station and drawing my attention to the reply that he received from my predecessor. He should not have been given the wrong information, and it should not have been published in the SRA's then plan.
    In the past hour or so, I have had the opportunity to have a very preliminary look as to what has happened here. It would appear that the operators of the railway have been in discussions with Powergen, which for a number of reasons has expressed concern about building the station there. However, agreement has been reached to buy the land in question, and I am told that the operators are about to obtain the powers that they need under the Transport and Works Act 1992 to start building the station. The situation there is not very
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    satisfactory, however, and if the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I would like to make further inquiries. Then I will write to him again.
    Mr. George Stevenson: Given the vital importance of the upgrade of the west coast main line, particularly in areas of north Staffordshire in my constituency, will the Secretary of State support the SRA's view, expressed in its strategic plan, that that vital arterial rail link should be completed in total by 2006, and resist the blandishments of the regulator, who has suggested that the second phase could be deferred as a cost-cutting exercise?
    Mr. Darling: There are two points there. First, it is planned that the west coast main line will be completed by 2007, not 2006. That has always been the case. Secondly, the regulator is quite right to draw attention to the fact that this is a project in which costs need to be controlled. I remind the House that when Railtrack was responsible for the network, it promised to build that line for a price of £2.5 billion. By the time it stopped trading, the cost had gone up to £13 billion. Now, with proper control and discipline, we think that the cost will be between £8 billion and £9 billion. I am afraid that that is a price that we are having to pay, because the line did not get the investment that it needed for some 20 or 30 years—ever since the late 1960s.
    I agree with my hon. Friend that the project is well worth doing. It is one of the busiest passenger railway routes in Europe, it is critical to the railways in this country and I would like to see it completed by 2007. However, the regulator is right that we must ensure at every stage that we drive costs down to their absolute minimum.
    Mr. Damian Green: In June, the Secretary of State said:
    "The investment which is going into the railway is slowly but surely bearing results."
    If he still believes that, will he tell us what proportion of trains are now running late, according to the Strategic Rail Authority?
    Mr. Darling: First, let me welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new post. We had expected to see the hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May), who we were told was in charge of both transport and the environment. I can only conclude that she must be dealing with the environment this morning, and therefore cannot be with us. It is nice to see the hon. Gentleman, though. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about Scotland?"] I have no difficulty in being present for Transport questions. I am always here: that is the big difference.
    Yes, the investment is "slowly but surely" making a difference. I have mentioned the west coast main line; let me now mention again that we are replacing nearly a third of rolling stock on the network over a five-year period.
    The hon. Gentleman is right in saying that, in terms of performance and reliability, things are not proceeding as quickly as they should. Although 80 per cent. of trains overall arrive on time, in far too many cases improvements are not being made fast enough.

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    There is a substantial variation between the best-performing trains, which are achieving 90 per cent. reliability or thereabouts, and some of the poorer performers, which are still in the mid-60s. The hon. Gentleman is right about that; the point on which we disagree is that whatever problems there may be on the railways, the answer cannot possibly be slashing investment, which is what the Conservatives favour.
    Mr. Green: I thank the Secretary of State for his kind remarks and his welcome. As he is so interested in the whereabouts of my hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead, let me tell him that she is at the CBI conference in Birmingham listening to the many complaints from British businesses about the Government's failure to provide a proper transport policy to help them to conduct their business profitably.
    The Secretary of State has just admitted that one in five trains run late. That is double the figure inherited by his Government. His response has been typical of this Government: he has abandoned the passenger growth targets, imposed above-inflation fare increases, and cut the number of services.
    The Deputy Prime Minister once promised to increase choice and cut congestion. Is it not true that, instead, the Government have cut choice and increased congestion?
    Mr. Darling: Not really, no. What is clear is that Britain's railways, and our roads for that matter, have suffered from decades of under-investment. Successive Governments, not just Conservative but Labour as well, have not spent as much as they should over a long period.
    Part of our current problem with the railways is that the investment was not made at the right time. Members will recall that before privatisation British Rail expected to replace some 500 miles of track each year; after privatisation the rate fell to 200 miles a year. This year we are replacing more than 700 miles of track. The obvious consequences of failure to invest are problems with the track and with reliability. What the hon. Gentleman says might be more credible had he not opposed every penny of public expenditure on transport, and on other matters.
    If the hon. Member for Maidenhead is indeed listening to CBI members, one thing they will be saying is that they want more investment to produce results more quickly. They are not calling for less investment. I just wonder what she is telling them she would do.
    Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: The Secretary of State will realise that value for money depends on a sensible set of priorities. Will he point out to the Strategic Rail Authority that ignoring the interests of freight and some of the smaller, more deprived parts of the UK is not a sensible way of keeping the whole system working? If we cut bits off, the core will suffer.
    Mr. Darling: I understand that point. However, I do not think that it is right to say that the SRA is ignoring freight—far from it. More goods are being taken by rail than two or three years ago. What the SRA and indeed the rail regulator both recognise is that parts of the
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    network are not used by high-speed trains and do not carry heavy freight. Just as motorways are constructed differently and are maintained to a different standard from A roads and B roads, it makes sense to ensure that our investment in the railways reflects the actual use of the rails. As I have told the House before, we spend about £73 million every week on the railways, matched by a similar sum from the private sector. It is a substantial sum. We need to ensure that it is spent properly and that we maintain the network according to the use of the trains on it.
    Pete Wishart: What comfort can the Secretary of State give his constituents that there will be no delay in plans to upgrade Waverley station in his constituency? He will know that Waverley is central to the Scottish rail network, so can he give a guarantee that the work will go ahead as a priority and that there will be no downgrade of the original plan?
    Mr. Darling: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for asking a question about my constituency. As I was on a train going through his constituency yesterday, I thought that he might ask about that. Waverley station is an important part of the network. The SRA, the Scottish Executive and Edinburgh city council are all discussing what the right level of improvements is and how they should be funded.
    One of the problems at Waverley is that, when Railtrack was responsible for it, it seemed more interested in building a shopping mall on top of the station than in improving the station itself. It is another example of the difficulties that were caused under Railtrack's stewardship of the railways. I hope that we can make the improvements that Waverley needs. It is an important station for the obvious reason that it connects so many services.

    Network Rail
    Alan Simpson: If he will make a statement on the decision by Network Rail to close its final salary pension scheme. [138859]
    Mr. David Drew: If he will make a statement on the decision by Network Rail to close its final salary pension scheme. [138864]
    The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Dr. Kim Howells): Network Rail is a private company and its decision about its final salary pension arrangements is a matter for Network Rail itself and the independent corporate trustee of the railways pension scheme.
    It is our understanding that there is no intention to breach the arrangements put in place to protect staff pensions on privatisation of the industry. The relevant final salary arrangement will still be open to protected rail industry staff who transfer voluntarily to Network Rail.
    Alan Simpson: The Minister will know that Network Rail is a publicly funded company and that that decision will make a large number of its members dependent on means-tested pensions. Will he confirm that the argument advanced by Network Rail for doing that is

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    that its pension bill has doubled to £42 million a year, but that has been as a consequence of the decision in 1994 to cut the contribution rate to the scheme by half.
    Will the Minister intervene to ensure, first, that the decision can be reviewed at the earliest possible opportunity and, secondly, that any moneys that the company takes out of workers' pension schemes is not used to pay off companies whose maintenance contracts are being terminated as a result of poor standards of work?
    Dr. Howells: I am afraid that my hon. Friend has been misinformed about the details of the pension scheme. I do not know where he has got his information from, but it does not square with the reality of the pension scheme. Network Rail has announced that new recruits to Network Rail will not enjoy the shared costs final salary section of the railways pension scheme and that the protection is there for all those members who are part of that section of the scheme.
    Mr. David Drew: Surely my hon. Friend will agree that it looks, certainly from the information that we have received, as though new employees will be somewhat put in jeopardy compared with employees in the previous good scheme. What is somewhat galling is that, at the same time as those employees could be faced with worsening conditions, Network Rail will continue to pay what look like very good bonuses to directors. Does not he agree that that is a somewhat hypocritical, if not contradictory, message to give to the industry?
    Dr. Howells: I am certainly not in favour of contradictory messages going out, but the question is about the new defined contribution arrangements for the pension scheme, which are as good as any in the private sector. My hon. Friend should realise that some train operating companies have already managed to introduce alternative defined contribution arrangements for new recruits in the industry without any serious dissension. I hope that he accepts that the rights of the many thousands of pensioners in the existing scheme will be protected.
    Mr. Henry Bellingham: I have received a number of representations on this, and I shall consider carefully what the Minister said. However, is he aware that 70 leading companies have closed their final salary schemes, affecting roughly 70,000 people? The total cost is about £100 million, but that compares with the £5 billion that the Chancellor has taken from pension funds through the change to tax credit. Does the Minister think that the Chancellor was right to do so?
    Dr. Howells: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that the Chancellor reduced corporation tax at the same time, and some of the people whom he seeks to represent are glad about that. He knows as well as I do that there have been difficulties with markets and the earnings of pension funds, so companies sometimes have to take such measures. He also knows as well as I do that we have to ensure that pensioners' rights are properly guarded.
    Mr. Christopher Chope: Does the Minister realise that reducing corporation tax does not
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    help Network Rail, a supposedly not-for-profit company? It has a £200 million pension deficit, so why does he not admit that the truth is that Network Rail's prospective employees will join thousand of others up and down the country who are victims of the Government's vicious pension tax?
    Dr. Howells: That was a nice piece of rhetoric, but it will not work. The Government will ensure that the gangster tactics that reigned under successive Tory Governments will not be repeated.
    Mr. Dennis Skinner: Will my hon. Friend look into the fact that if 70 big business companies refuse to pay proper pensions it is incumbent on those who complain about it to say that they are against big business acting in that way? Moreover, they should tell members of the shadow Cabinet to stop moonlighting and taking £5 million from big business, because they are robbing the pensioners.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that the Minister can leave that point.

    Airports White Paper
    7. Mr. Peter Lilley: When he plans to publish his White Paper on airports in the south-east of England. [138860]
    The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Alistair Darling): We expect to publish the air transport White Paper covering the whole of the UK next month.
    Mr. Lilley: I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. When he publishes the White Paper, will he ignore the blustering threats of legal action by the operators of Luton airport and accept that there is massive local opposition—I have got another 1,000 signatures to add to the many that he has already received—to over-expansion of the airport to the size of Gatwick? There are no direct rail links to the airport, and the overflying stacked above it means that it will be less safe. The airport is closed more frequently than any other airport serving London because of weather conditions, and on the right hon. Gentleman's own calculations, development is the least cost-effective option of all those that he is considering.
    Mr. Darling: I am aware of the right hon. Gentleman's strong feelings about development at Luton because he has made them clear on previous occasions. My answer to him, as it will be to everyone else who catches your eye, Mr. Speaker, is that people just have to wait a short while longer before finding out our conclusions.
    Mr. Kelvin Hopkins: While there is always some opposition to airport development, my right hon. Friend must know that there is strong support for the development of Luton locally. There is unanimous support among Government Members for the development and even, I think, strong support

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    among Opposition Members. Is it not the case that Luton could be expanded quickly, simply and cheaply and contribute substantially to airport needs?
    Mr. Darling: My hon. Friend is right that, in relation to just about every airport in the country, there are strong feelings both for and against. I am acutely aware of the fact that when I publish the White Paper there will be a lynching party from one direction or another.
    Mr. Mark Prisk: Regardless of what is in the White Paper, it is crucial that our scrutiny of the Government's plans is both informed and thorough. Will the Secretary of State therefore confirm that he will publish the evidence that he receives before the White Paper, and that he will give us a proper, full debate in this House in January?
    Mr. Darling: The question of whether the matter will be debated is in the hands of the usual channels, but for my part I would welcome a debate. As I have said, whatever we decide, our conclusions are bound to be controversial, and there are bound to be strong feelings on both sides of the argument. Indeed, I know of the hon. Gentleman's feelings about the issue of airports in his constituency, because he has spoken to me about it.
    When we publish the White Paper, we shall of course then publish the representations that have been received, but perhaps it would help the hon. Gentleman and the House if I point out that the White Paper will set out a framework against which the industry and people can plan for the future. It is not as if its publication will be the end of the story, with no more debate. If further expansion takes place, there are planning procedures to go through and there will be all manner of debate and discussion, so there will be plenty of opportunity in this House and elsewhere to discuss the proposals. But it is important that we publish the White Paper, because it will be the first time since the mid-1980s that a Government have set out what their strategy ought to be, taking into account the fact that more and more people are flying for business and leisure reasons. Any Government have a duty to set out a framework against which people can plan.
    David Taylor: Can the Secretary of State reassure the House that he will not seek to decant the excess growth that cannot be absorbed by London airports to other regional airports without there being environmental frameworks in place of a similar standard to those in the south-east, in order to protect the communities surrounding those airports?
    Mr. Darling: On the first point, the demand and pressure on airports is not just a phenomenon in the south-east of England—it is happening right across the country. As I have said many times, this year about half the population will fly at least once, and of course a substantial number fly more often than that. As I have also mentioned before, in 1998 about 5 million people flew on low-cost airlines, but this year the figure will be in excess of 45 million. That is happening throughout the country. However, my hon. Friend makes the important point that environmental measures must be put in place to ensure that the environment is preserved. As we have said on many occasions, aviation, like every
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    other industry, has to meet the consequences of the damage that it causes, so his point about environmental protection is very important.
    Mr. Jonathan Sayeed: The High Court ruled that the Government's air transport White Paper was flawed, and I trust that the Secretary of State will agree that the consequence has been even more delay. That has meant uncertainty for those who live around Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and other airports in the south-east, and a continuing planning blight. Has he ever apologised for getting the White Paper so wrong that the High Court had to throw it out and the Government had to start again?
    Mr. Darling: The White Paper has not been published yet, so if there has been a ruling against it I should be very surprised. What I think the hon. Gentleman is trying to get at is the consultation process, during which, as he rightly says, the Government took the view that Gatwick should be excluded because of the legal agreement between the then British Airports Authority and the county council. Before he starts demanding apologies, I should point out that many of his colleagues representing constituencies around Gatwick welcomed that decision when it was taken.
    The hon. Gentleman will recall that on 28 November last year, I told the House that, in the light of the High Court ruling, rather than prolonging the agony, we should consult on the basis that Gatwick had to be considered, and we are now doing that. As I pointed out 12 months ago, that would inevitably mean a delay in reaching our conclusions, which I had originally hoped to publish in the summer. I made it clear then that they would not be published until the end of this year, and I am determined that they should be published by then—that is, next month—so that the problems of blight and uncertainty that he complains of can be addressed.

    Bus Services
    8. Paddy Tipping: What representations he has received on the cancellation of bus services caused by the lack of availability of trained bus drivers. [138861]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Tony McNulty): We are aware from the Department's monitoring surveys and other sources that unavailability of drivers is a significant cause of bus service cancellations. The bus industry is taking a number of initiatives to tackle that problem, and we will continue to assist where possible. My hon. Friend will know that the difficulties are caused as much by retention as by recruitment.
    Paddy Tipping: May I draw the Minister's attention to the case of Nottingham City Transport, which has rightly been told by the traffic commissioner that the lack of drivers is not an excuse for the unavailability of services? In response, it has reduced and withdrawn

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    services, causing great inconvenience. Is not the solution very simple: that Nottingham City Transport needs to recruit, pay and train its drivers properly?
    Mr. McNulty: I am not aware of all the details regarding Nottingham City Transport, but I shall happily take the matter up with it and look at its solutions to the problem—as I shall, in the wider context, take matters further with the Bus Partnership Forum, which I chair. The Department will continue to work with TransFed, the industrial training body, and with GoSkills, the sector skills council's co-ordinating body that comes into operation next year. To underline my hon. Friend's remarks, the crucial fact is that buses get to communities—often deprived communities—and serve them far better than any other mode of transport can.
    Miss Anne McIntosh: The problem is symptomatic of a wider issue that was identified in a recent report by the Select Committee on Transport—namely, that the Office of Fair Trading is failing correctly to apply the Competition Act 1998 to bus companies and passenger transport executives. Will the Minister address that?
    Mr. McNulty: When we recently met representatives of the Office of Fair Trading to discuss its taxi report, we raised some issues about buses. If the hon. Lady feels that the OFT is not carrying out its duties in full, she should write to me and we will happily look into it.

    Ormskirk Bypass
    Mr. Colin Pickthall: If he will make a statement on the provision of a bypass for Ormskirk. [138862]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. David Jamieson): I fully understand the importance that local people attach to the bypass for Ormskirk, but it is for Lancashire county council to determine the priorities for local road building and to make bids accordingly.
    Mr. Pickthall: Is my hon. Friend aware that Ormskirk is one of the worst, if not the worst, bottlenecks in the north-west, because it is built around the crossroads of the A59 and the A570? That applies particularly to traffic heading from the M58 to Southport, which is very heavy in the summer, and sometimes queues up for more than 2 miles outside the town, leading to terrible conditions. The campaign for the bypass has been going on since before the first world war. It featured in the Department's programme until 1998, when it was picked out, and it is now joint second in the Lancashire plan. During my time in Parliament, six Ministers have been to see the problem—I would be delighted if my hon. Friend were to be the seventh. Even more importantly, will he talk to the council and the Highways Agency to get the project moving?
    Mr. Jamieson: I congratulate my hon. Friend on his robust campaigning on this issue. I am very aware of the congestion in Ormskirk, and I would happily be the seventh Minister to visit that road. As he knows, it is due
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    for de-trunking, and should therefore become the responsibility of Lancashire county council. I have asked the Government Office for the North-West to reignite the discussions between the Highways Agency and Lancashire county council with a view to getting the council to take the road over. It will then be able to apply for local transport plan funding for the bypass. Although I cannot give my hon. Friend a guarantee that that will be possible, the very substantial increase that the council has received over the past three years should give him grounds for optimism.
    Dr. John Pugh: A bypass would bring economic benefits to my constituency, as well as to Ormskirk, and the fact that there is no opposition to it makes it all the stranger that it has not gone ahead. Is the Minister aware that recent, highly controversial changes in hospital configuration mean that ambulances going to accident and emergency departments in Ormskirk and Southport will have to criss-cross the busy town centre of Ormskirk? Will he look into that and speed up traffic in Lancashire?
    Mr. Jamieson: I can tell the hon. Gentleman that we have already looked into that. I am aware that the reconfiguration of health services in the area has caused potential problems for ambulances on the road. I have asked the Government Office for the North-West to liaise with the health authorities in Southport and Ormskirk and with Lancashire county council about taking short-term traffic management measures to alleviate possible delays to ambulance services travelling along the road.

    West Coast Main Line
    Michael Fabricant: How many delayed train arrivals there were on the west coast main line in each year since 1999–2000; and if he will make a statement. [138863]
    The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Dr. Kim Howells): The Strategic Rail Authority publishes performance information in its six-monthly "On Track" publication, copies of which are placed in the Library of the House. Information is provided for the services of each operator in aggregate, but not—I am afraid to say—by specific routes.
    Michael Fabricant: The Minister will know, because the Secretary of State said so a few moments ago, that things are not happening as quickly as they should in terms of punctuality and timing. Can he imagine the frustration of people in Lichfield, who stand at Lichfield Trent Valley railway station and watch trains whizzing by and not stopping? There are only four trains a day to London, although there will soon be five. Lichfield Trent Valley also has no facilities for the disabled. Will the Minister meet the Lichfield commuters club, which I formed and which will meet regularly at the House of Commons, for a drink—or two or three—to discuss the
    problems that people encounter?
    Dr. Howells: I would be delighted to meet the Lichfield commuters club and to have a drink bought for me by the hon. Gentleman.

  The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked—
  CABINET OFFICE

    Civil Service
    18. Kevin Brennan: What steps are being taken to increase the proportion of disabled people in the senior civil service. [1388311]
    The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Douglas Alexander): My Department undertakes a range of activities to encourage people with disabilities to apply to the civil service and to increase the proportion of disabled people in the senior civil service. For example, the civil service bursary scheme encourages disabled staff with potential to reach the senior civil service. The aim of such activities is to increase the proportion of disabled staff in the senior civil service to 3.2 per cent. from the current level of 1.7 per cent.
    Kevin Brennan: I thank the Minister for that answer. I am sure that he is aware of the groundbreaking and innovative work of the Public Administration Committee on developing a draft civil service Bill. Does he think that we should include in that Bill provision to ensure that the civil service provides equality for disabled people, or is the civil service doing well enough under current arrangements? For example, how well are we doing in comparison with the FTSE 100 companies?
    Mr. Alexander: My hon. Friend raises an important point. We are awaiting the outcome of work by the Public Administration Committee on the draft civil service Bill and we look forward to it with interest. The Government's commitment to publish a draft Bill thereafter endures. On the substantive point about the level of commitment in the civil service, I was greatly heartened by the words of Sir Andrew Turnbull on his appointment as Cabinet Secretary, when he personally committed himself to the diversity agenda in the civil service. As for comparisons with the private sector, some 12.9 per cent. of the economically active population are disabled, but data from the civil service diversity survey suggest that some 15 per cent. of civil servants have a disability or long-standing illness.
    Mr. James Gray: I welcome the Government's determination to increase the number of people who are disabled who work in the senior civil service. However, I am less convinced by the Government's press release of 16 October, which said that they would achieve that by
    "coordinating interdepartmental action to get better information on disabled staff at senior levels in order to understand better the barriers to progression."
    In that context, we are told by the press release that only 0.5 per cent. of the 190 senior civil servants in his Department are disabled. That is more than none, but less than one. How many senior civil servants in his Department are disabled?
    Mr. Alexander: I will happily write to the hon. Gentleman with the specific number. I have looked at
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    the facts that he elucidated and I would make the following observation. The total number of staff of the Cabinet Office is just below 2,000, and the number of senior civil servants is a significantly smaller proportion. Therefore, the number of staff directly affected is very small. None the less, he raises an important point. The Cabinet Office should lead by example, and that is why I welcome the initiatives that it has taken at a corporate level—in terms of the guidance that was issued, which the hon. Gentleman seemed to dismiss—and in the work that every Department should be doing on the diversity agenda.
    Mr. Wayne DavidWhat progress the civil service has made since 1997 in the employment of ethnic minorities. [138845]
    Mr. Alexander: This Government are strongly committed to diversity in the civil service and to ensuring that it is fully representative of the community that it serves. The latest data, for April 2003, show that ethnic minorities make up 8 per cent. of the civil service, an increase from 4.8 per cent. in April 1997.
    Mr. David: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but what efforts are being made to encourage ethnic minorities to enter the civil service, especially through the fast stream, which has long been the preserve of people from the white middle class?
    Mr. Alexander: My hon. Friend makes an important point, but I have some positive news in relation to the fast stream. The Government promoted the fast stream summer development programme for ethnic minorities, which now provides a training placement of six to eight weeks for 60 undergraduates. There are also grounds for optimism about the further scope for work in the fast stream in years to come. We have initiated work to that effect.
    Mr. Eric Forth: Can the Minister give an absolute guarantee that appointments and promotion will always be made solely on merit? Will he guarantee to the taxpayer that the best possible quality of public service will be provided?
    Mr. Alexander: I am happy to give the undertaking that civil servants are appointed according to merit. However, an important factor that must be borne in mind is that we need to realise the potential of all sectors of the community. I see no contradiction between a diversity agenda that recognises that and also secures and upholds the traditional principle of merit in the senior civil service.
    Tony Wright: Has not the time come now, through a single equality Act, to lay a duty on all public bodies to promote equality? The Public Administration Committee recommended that recently.
    Mr. Alexander: My hon. Friend is the Chairman of the Public Administration Committee, and I take his point very seriously. I know that much work is being done on the matter of a single equalities commission, which will be given clear consideration by the Government.

    Regulatory Costs
    Hugh Bayley: What assessment the Better Regulation Task Force has made of the number of regulations imposing costs on business which were made in (a) 1992-1997 and (b) 1997-2002. [138846]
    Mr. Alexander: The Better Regulation Task Force, which was established by this Government in 1997, carries out detailed studies of specific regulatory issues on which it makes recommendations to Government, rather than general surveys of regulations. The task force has published 29 substantive reports and made more than 350 recommendations, almost all of which have been accepted by the Government.
    Hugh Bayley: Does my hon. Friend recognise the burden of regulation placed on tourism and hospitality businesses, especially the small ones? Tourism is important to the city of York, which is one of the country's most important tourism centres. It is just as important to many other towns and cities in the beautiful and historic county of Yorkshire. What is the Minister doing to speed the reform of regulation in his Department and in the House?
    Mr. Alexander: I know that my hon. Friend's tireless work on behalf of the tourism and hospitality sectors in his constituency is recognised on all sides of the House, and I pay tribute to it. Specific measures taken by the Government include the licensing reforms and deregulation orders that covered the golden jubilee and new year's eve, and permanent changes have been made to the licensing regime around the latter date. Those changes are expected to save business about £1.9 billion in the first 10 years. Also, in its hotels and restaurants report of June 2000, the Better Regulation Task Force called for a major overhaul of the planning system. The Government have introduced a Bill to reform that system.
    Mr. Richard Allan: In the 2002 annual report, the chair of the Better Regulation Task Force says:
    "If we are half way through the better regulation journey, Europe is just at the beginning."
    Will the Minister say what progress he has been able to make in the context of European regulatory impact assessments in the past year? Does he plan to make those assessments available to the House, so that we can take a view while directives are still at the discussion stage, rather than when they have been finalised. when it is too late?
    Mr. Alexander: I shall certainly consider the hon. Gentleman's final point. I can also inform the House
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    that only last week I met my equivalent Minister in the Spanish Government to discuss exactly that matter. I made clear to him the Government's pride in the fact that the European Commission has begun to take forward the British agenda on better regulation. I also impressed on him the urgency of that agenda, as a way of ensuring Spanish support while we try to gain wider acceptance for it across Europe.
    Mr. Peter Pike: My hon. Friend the Minister will know that the Regulatory Reform Committee published a report a few weeks ago, and I am sure that he has been studying it. The Committee expressed some concern that the Government were not delivering quite what they had forecast. How will the Government speed matters up? Now that the Opposition have had a reshuffle, does he hope that they will be able to appoint hon. Members to take part in the Committee's work?
    Mr. Alexander: I certainly value the work of the Committee. I have appeared before it and had the opportunity to read the report in question. I can give my hon. Friend some comfort as the reform of patents legislation and fire safety proposals are due to be laid before the House along with other measures in the next few months. The target set for the Government in the regulatory reform action plan is stretching, but I continue to believe that it is achievable.
    Mr. Oliver Heald: The Minister will know that we are losing 2,000 manufacturing jobs from this country every month. He will also know that the Confederation of British Industry survey of business leaders showed that 60 per cent. of them are likely to move jobs abroad in the next two years. Is not the reason for that the 15 new sets of regulations penned by this Government every day of the week? Is that not why 95 per cent. of business leaders report that they are spending more time on complying with Government regulations than ever before? Will he give them a Christmas present by telling British companies now that there will be no new regulations for the rest of this year?
    Mr. Alexander: I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new position on the Front Bench shadowing the Cabinet Office. He has offered the House a characteristically thought-out policy proposal in his first appearance at the Dispatch Box on this agenda. If we are going to discuss the work of the CBI in this area, a better starting point might be the words used by Digby Jones yesterday on the "Today" programme on Radio 4. He said:
    "We've low inflation, low interest rates, low unemployment and some sustainable growth. In fact, we're the most successful economy in Europe".
    I could hardly have put it better myself.

Points of Order
12.31 pm
Sir Patrick Cormack: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As you are the spokesman for the House of Commons, would you be kind enough to inform the President of the United States, whom you will certainly see during his visit, that there is great disappointment in all parts of the House that he is not to address both Houses of Parliament? Even at this late stage, would you be prepared to issue an invitation to the President to do so?
Mr. Dennis Skinner: He's not speaking for everybody.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I will be at a state dinner tomorrow night but it would be inappropriate for me to say anything other than, "I am very pleased to meet you, Mr. President." I think that I can anticipate what the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) would like to say. The hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) is not speaking for the whole House in this matter. [Interruption.] Perhaps, but it is not something that I want to take up tomorrow night.
Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I apologise, as I did not have time to give you notice of this point. Under the guise of security changes for the presidential visit, various doors that would normally give Members of Parliament access to their office buildings are being closed. I do not wish to discuss this matter in public, but I hope that decisions will not be taken that will affect Members of Parliament on the basis of present and immediate security considerations.
Mr. Speaker: I think that the hon. Lady is annoyed about the entrance to Norman Shaw south.
Mrs. Dunwoody: North.
Mr. Speaker: I beg your pardon. I am usually a man of the north. I take my guidance from the Serjeant at Arms, whose concern is security at all times—not only for Members but for those who visit the building and, of course, our staff. I must bear all those things in mind when such decisions are taken.
Mr. Eric Forth: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Have you been informed how many Ministers are being flown back from faraway places at huge expense in a Government panic to try to save their skin in key votes tomorrow? I have heard, although I can scarce believe it, that the Minister for Sport and Tourism is being flown back from Australia to try to prop up the Government in a very controversial
616
vote. Have you heard about that, Mr. Speaker, and if so, will you be asking how much taxpayers' money is being spent to do that?
Mr. Speaker: I have enough to worry about without worrying about the business of the Whips. That matter is for them to worry about.
Norman Baker: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seek your help on a matter relating to written parliamentary questions. You will know that the new system allows Members to prioritise five questions a day. I have to tell you that a large number this week have come back with holding replies. You will also be aware that if those questions are not answered by Thursday, they fall and do not have to be answered at all. Will you please give Departments guidance that priority questions and other questions that have been tabled for answer should indeed be answered before we prorogue?
Mr. Speaker: I am responsible only for the questions, not the answers.
Mr. Oliver Heald: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will be aware that I asked the Leader of the House at business questions last Thursday if there were any plans for the President of the United States to speak to both Houses of Parliament. On that occasion, the right hon. Gentleman had no news on the matter. Given that the House expects such an event, have you had any notification from the Leader of the House that he intends to make a statement today or tomorrow to explain the position? If not, why not?
Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the House has not been in touch with me on that matter.
Miss Anne McIntosh: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Further to the point raised by the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), will you give us an undertaking that we will have access to our offices in Norman Shaw north at all points during this week?
Mr. Speaker: It is my understanding that Members' offices will be available to them. Access is the concern, not the offices or entry to them.

BILL PRESENTED
  FISHERIES JURISDICTION
  Mr. Alex Salmond, supported by Mr. Roy Beggs, Mr. Alistair Carmichael, Mr. Eddie McGrady, Mr. Austin Mitchell, Ann Winterton, Mr. Elfyn Llwyd, Angus Robertson and Mr. Michael Weir, presented a Bill to make provision for withdrawal from the Common Fisheries Policy of the European Union; to amend the Fishery Limits Act 1976; to make provision about the exercise of functions under that Act by Northern Ireland Ministers, Scottish Ministers, the National Assembly for Wales and the Secretary of State; to provide that that Act shall have effect regardless of the provisions of the European Communities Act 1972; to define English, Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh waters; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed [Bill 183].

  Grammar Schools (Ballots and Consultation)
  12.36 pm
  David Taylor: I beg to move,
  That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 in order to remove the powers to hold grammar school ballots and to require the Secretary of State for Education and Skills before the end of the next Parliament to consult all maintained primary and secondary schools in each local education authority in England on the future arrangements for secondary school admissions within that authority; and for connected purposes.
  The grammar school system
  "was a response to the needs of a vanished society which required a small educated class and a large number of manual workers. It is no longer the appropriate model for a world where most jobs require educated men and women."
  Those are not my words, although I agree with every one, but those of our present Prime Minister a short time before the momentous victory in May 1997, which was famously founded on the policy tripod of education, education, education. In that brave new dawn, many hoped for an early end to selection, but here we are in the second half of a second Labour Government with a second large majority, with more children facing the 11-plus or selective entry tests for secondary education than did in 1997. In England, 36 of the 150 local education authorities still have selective systems, 15 of them wholly so. After 1997, the movers and shakers who shape our party's policies lost their nerve and abandoned our historical commitment to end selection by ability, which had been so memorably and visibly articulated through the lips of the present Home Secretary.
  The idea of local ballots on the future of the remaining 164 grammar schools was introduced with a set of rules structured so that it is utterly impossible to win that ballot for change. Kafka would have swooned at the byzantine complexity of it all. It is that deeply flawed approach to consultation that my Bill seeks to set aside. That approach is shot through with anomalies, drawbacks and stumbling blocks, and it has led to only one ballot being held—in Ripon in 2000.
  The practical difficulties and absurdities in the present arrangements inevitably prevent any parent, anywhere, ever again, from being given the chance to decide on the admission policies of their local grammar schools. The law must be changed. The view of every affected parent in the locality is key to the whole process, but must it be parents alone who can contribute to the debate and have a veto on change? Many educational writers argue that parental involvement in schools is too short term and too naturally entwined with the interests of their own children for them to see—in that classic Downing street phrase—the big picture. There is a strong argument that the whole community should vote, but my Bill does not tread that path. While parents are probably better placed than voters at large to know the effects of selection on children, the importance of the ultimate decision being theirs is more that it would be politically problematic for a future Government to override that decision locally or nationally, so I would expand the electorate only by including staff at local schools, whose opinions at present are either stifled or marginalised.
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  Mere tinkering with the regulations is wholly inadequate to extracting us from the quagmire that impedes progress. The many parents and schools seeking change are bogged down by apparent Government indifference to the outcome of local decisions. My party's commitment to lifelong learning and comprehensive education must mean the end of the division that segregation always brings for education and for society as a whole. Parental choice is actually denied where selection by examination persists, so the Government have to decide that they really want to see change. The educational and social imperatives that lead inevitably to that conclusion have to be spelled out by the Government in clear terms.
  The vacuous vacillation that characterises the present arrangements is unsustainable. The status quo must go. The Government cannot just stand aside during a review, without giving any information, resources or commitments on future funding support for a reformed system, if that is indeed what parents and schools want to endorse.
  My Bill's other provision would offer the Secretary of State an early opportunity to bring about historic and long-overdue reform in our nation's schools, for the enactment of the Bill would launch a large-scale, systematic and balanced debate on secondary school admission policies in each English local education authority. There would be no hiding place for the myths, distortions and half-truths that are routinely used to permit the continuance of those dodos in the educational aviary.
  Some hon. Members and vested interests outside the House will fight to retain or extend secondary school selection by ability, or by its close relative, aptitude. They will doubtless cite past evidence from an imaginary golden era, when selection into grammar schools was said to offer the only escape from poverty for academic young people who would otherwise have had poorer educational opportunities, notwithstanding the fact that then, as now, grammar schools were predominantly socially selective as well—overwhelmingly peopled by children from better-off homes.
  The dinosaur defenders would then fall back on the fallacious argument that standards in comprehensive education are sacrificed in an egalitarian levelling-down process. They say that the collective overall performance of schools is better in selective areas, but a proper value-added analysis and comparison of selective and non-selective LEAs shows clearly that community educational performance is actually depressed, not enhanced, in selective areas, so bang goes another stock myth.
  Those who try to rationalise the irrational and promote the unpalatable will now be forced to dig deep into their reasons rag-bag. An old mantra from new Labour seeps into their thinking: people want choice and diversity, they will assert triumphantly. Sadly, in a selective system, only children able to pass the test on a wet Tuesday in February, and their parents, have more choice of school. Only when all schools in an area are comprehensive do families have access to a real and more meaningful choice.
  So finally, in desperation, the republican guard around the final citadels of privilege will deploy their Exocet excuse. They will say, "What's wrong with

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  selection? It happens in real life." But selection takes no account of the fact that children develop at different rates. It sets at naught the facts that there cannot be selection for the few without rejection for the many and that selection separates children socially at an early age, dividing families and friends. Is that not social exclusion for those who may see themselves as failures?
  There is renewed pressure to end secondary selection—for example, the recent launch of a parliamentary campaign to modernise secondary school procedures, called "Comprehensive Future", the aims, values and philosophy of which are contained in early-day motion 1859. I hope and believe that my Bill is entirely consistent with those ideals. Last weekend, in the Caroline Benn memorial lecture, Professor Sally Tomlinson excoriated the present mania for diversity, which frustrates the comprehensive ideal.
  Let me offer some final perspectives, all three from men educated in boys' grammar schools. First, Shakespeare was over-critical of selection when, in "Henry VI, Part 2", he wrote:
  "Thou hast most traitorously corrupted the youth of the realm in erecting a grammar school".
  Secondly, Alastair Campbell was unjust in his facile phrase, "the bog-standard comprehensive". Finally, my modest measure triangulates a third way between my two fellow midlanders. There is solid evidence identifying the links between high levels of segregation in secondary schools and increasing levels of social exclusion, and the relationship between the difficult circumstances of many inner-city schools and the selective admissions strategies of neighbouring areas and adjacent boroughs. Ofsted regularly reports on the narrow social base of grammar schools in terms of free school meals, ethnic minorities and students with special needs.
  The case for change is completely compelling. There is a mood for change out there; the means for change lie in here; the time for change is right now. I commend the Bill to the House.
  Chris Grayling: Let me start by welcoming two things that I heard during the contribution of the hon. Member for North-West Leicestershire (David Taylor). First, the concept of scrapping provisions to hold ballots about the future of grammar schools is an excellent one. The sooner the House enacts such a measure, the better, because those provisions are proving hugely disruptive to schools. Last week, I spoke to the head of a grammar school who said, "The fact that we have this hanging over our heads year after year is enormously disruptive." It takes the leadership of a school away from what it should be doing— educating the pupils. I therefore think that it is a superb idea, and if the Bill were merely about removing that provision, I have no doubt that it would receive overwhelming support from the Opposition.
  The second welcome thing about the hon. Gentleman's speech is that it shows clearly that old Labour is alive and well on the Labour Benches. This is an old Labour measure writ large. It is all about the old days of the Labour party and the desire to end the things that worked for this country. It is the living proof of why what was done in 18 years of Conservative Government was right, and why this country would be a worse place
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  were the Government to fall back into the hands of Labour Members like the hon. Gentleman. This is yet another Labour attempt to undermine and destroy grammar schools, which are doing a first-rate job educating pupils in many parts of the country. I am surrounded by representatives of those areas, such as Buckinghamshire, Trafford, Bromley and Salisbury. Sadly, I am not surrounded by those who represent the excellent grammar schools in Kingston and Sutton, as they sit on the Liberal Democrat Benches, but I hope that in the near future those areas too will be represented by people who will sit on the Conservative Benches.
  The reality is that grammar schools today provide an opportunity for all, and they have always done so. They do not, as our education system does all too frequently today, select by estate agent. Today, one's choice of school is determined by where one lives, and where one lives is all too often determined by the wealth of one's family and one's parents. If one happens to have been born on the wrong side of town, therefore, there is, in those areas where there is a grammar school, a chance to move into the best school in the area, selected by ability and intelligence, not by one's ability to pay or by the wealth of one's family. There are many places in this country where the great grammar schools provided that route to academic success for people from all walks of life. It is no accident that back in the 1960s a higher proportion of those who went to university came from working-class backgrounds than do today. That is no coincidence, because grammar schools provide a quality education and quality educational support for people from all walks of life.
  I freely admit that the difficulty with grammar schools was related to transfer at age 11. Undoubtedly, there were those who suffered in an arbitrary system. The Labour alternative to deal with potential injustices in the system, however, is to dumb down the best schools. Rather than finding an alternative ladder for those who have the opportunity to achieve, Labour wants to take away that ladder from the best and most able in our society. That is madness.
  Grammar schools provide an excellent academic environment, which affects not only those who attend them: they pull up the whole education system. It is no coincidence that even non-selective schools in the London boroughs of Kingston and Sutton do better than the comprehensive schools in their neighbouring boroughs. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for North-West Leicestershire might say that that is not true, but I speak as a former opposition education spokesman in the London borough of Merton, which directly abuts Sutton and Kingston. What I said is absolutely true, because grammar schools contribute to an overall sense of excellence in their local education systems. They provide opportunities and encouragement, and they pull up standards. The idea that their removal would enhance educational success and performance is complete nonsense.
  Most importantly, parents want grammar schools—the few that survive are hugely over-subscribed. Nonsuch high school for girls, which is on the fringe of my constituency, had its test for children who wished to attend it last week. It was heaving with applicants, showing that hundreds of parents want their children to attend grammar schools. Who are we to deprive them of that choice?

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  It is worth telling Labour Members that such schools are especially popular with pupils from ethnic minority backgrounds. The hon. Member for North-West Leicestershire will remember the comments made by Trevor Phillips from the Commission for Racial Equality when the education debate was focused on entry to university for pupils from independent schools. He rightly pointed out that many families, especially Asian families, work extremely hard to send their children to independent schools because they want the best education for them. The same is true of grammar schools. Those who were involved in the test at Nonsuch school noted with a wry smile that one room was almost entirely filled with young girls with the surname Patel. Asian families are desperate, enthusiastic and determined to help their children into grammar schools so that they get the best education. Are we seriously to say to those families and families from other ethnic minority groups that their children should no longer have that opportunity? It would be wrong to do that.
  Parents want grammar schools, and grammar schools deliver results of excellent quality. They pull up educational standards in their areas, and local education authorities that contain grammar schools are among the top-performing authorities in the country. Taking the opportunity to pursue academic excellence away from the children of people from all walks of life would be a total travesty and utterly inappropriate. It would once again do what the Labour party has delighted in doing over the years: destroying excellence in search of equality. That is the wrong way to go about things and this latest attack must not be allowed to succeed.
  Sadly, I fear that we will return to the issue year after year as more old Labour Members try to send the wrong message to our grammar schools and those who teach in and lead them. They do not congratulate them on the excellent work that they do for their pupils or the opportunity that they provide for people from all walks of life, but say, "Actually, we think you're a bit too good, and we want to get rid of you." That is not the right way to make progress. We should champion excellence rather than dumbing it down. We must oppose the Bill.
  Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 23 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of public business ):—
  The House divided: Ayes 132, Noes 105.

  Division No. 368]

  [12:53 pm

  AYES

  Allan, Richard

  Buck, Ms Karen

  Allen, Graham

  Burgon, Colin

  Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

  Calton, Mrs Patsy

  Atherton, Ms Candy

  Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

  Bailey, Adrian

  Challen, Colin

  Baird, Vera

  Chaytor, David

  Barnes, Harry

  Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

  Bayley, Hugh

  Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

  Beard, Nigel

  Benton, Joe (Bootle)

  Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

  Berry, Roger

  Cohen, Harry

  Best, Harold

  Coleman, Iain

  Betts, Clive

  Colman, Tony

  Brennan, Kevin

  Connarty, Michael

  622

  Cousins, Jim

  Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)

  Crausby, David

  Cruddas, Jon

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

  Marshall-Andrews, Robert

  Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

  Martlew, Eric

  Dalyell, Tarn

  Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

  Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

  Mole, Chris

  David, Wayne

  Mudie, George

  Davidson, Ian

  Organ, Diana

  Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

  Palmer, Dr. Nick

  Dean, Mrs Janet

  Perham, Linda

  Dismore, Andrew

  Picking, Anne

  Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

  Pickthall, Colin

  Dobson, rh Frank

  Pike, Peter (Burnley)

  Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

  pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

  Edwards, Huw

  Pound, Stephen

  Efford, Clive

  Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

  Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

  Prosser, Gwyn

  Farrelly, Paul

  Purchase, Ken

  Fisher Mark

  Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

  Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

  Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)

  Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

  Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

  Francis, Dr. Hywel

  Rooney, Terry

  Gerrard, Neil

  Salter, Martin

  Gidley, Sandra

  Sarwar, Mohammad

  Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

  Savidge, Malcolm

  Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

  Sawford, Phil

  Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

  Sedgemore Brian

  Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

  Sheerman, Barry

  Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil &

  Sheridan, Jim

  (Rhymney)

  Short, rh Clare

  Heath, David

  Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

  Hepburn, Stephen

  Skinner Dennis

  Hopkins, Kelvin

  Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

  Humble, Mrs Joan

  Steinberg, Gerry

  Illsley, Eric

  Stevenson, George

  Irranca-Davies, Huw

  Stewart, David (Inverness E &

  Irranca-Davies, Huw

  Lochaber)

  Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

  stinchcombe, Paul

  Jenkins, Brian

  Tipping, Paddy

  Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

  Trickett Jon

  Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

  Truswell, Paul

  Khabra, Piara S.

  Tynaa Bill (Hamilton S)

  Kidney, David

  Wareing, Robert N.

  King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green &

  Watts, David

  Bow)

  white, Brian

  Kirkwood, Sir Archy

  Whitehead, Dr. Alan

  Lazarowicz, Mark

  wills, Michael

  Lepper, David

  Wood, Mike (Batley)

  Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

  Wray, James (Glasgow

  Llwyd, Elfyn

  Baillieston)

  Luke, Iain (Dundee E)

  Wright, Anthony D. (Gt

  Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

  Yarmouth)

  MacDonald, Calum

  Wright, David (Telford)

  MacDougall, John

  Mahmood, Khalid

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Mahon, Mrs Alice

  David Taylor and

  Mallaber. Judy

  Mr. Lindsay Hoyle

  NOES

  Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

  Curry, rh David

  Arbuthnot, rh James

  Davis, rh David (Haltemprice &

  Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

  Howden)

  Barker, Gregory

  Djanogly, Jonathan

  Bellingham, Henry

  Fabricant, Michael

  Bercow, John

  Fallon, Michael

  Blunt, Crispin

  Field, Mark (Cities of London &

  Boswell, Tim

  Westminster)

  Brady, Graham

  Flight, Howard

  Brazier, Julian

  Flook, Adrian

  Butterfill, John

  Francois, Mark

  Cameron, David

  Gale, Roger (N Thanet)

  Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping

  Garnier, Edward

  Barnet)

  Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

  Clappison, James

  Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

  623

  Goodman, Paul

  Paterson, Owen

  Gray, James (N Wilts)

  Pickles, Eric

  Grayling, Chris

  Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

  Green, Damian (Ashford)

  Randall, John

  Greenway, John

  Redwood, rh John

  Grieve, Dominic

  Robathan, Andrew

  Hague, rh William

  Robertson, Hugh (Faversham &

  Hammond, Philip

  M-Kent)

  Hawkins, Nick

  Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

  Hayes, John (S Holland)

  Roe. Mrs Marion

  Heald, Oliver

  Rosindell, Andrew

  Hendry, Charles

  Ruffley, David

  Hermon, Lady

  Sayeed, Jonathan

  Hoban, Mark (Fareham)

  Selous, Andrew

  Hogg, rh Douglas

  Sheerman, Barry

  Horam, John (Orpington)

  Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian

  Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

  Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

  Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

  Soames, Nicholas

  Key, Robert (Salisbury)

  Spelman, Mrs Caroline

  Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

  Spicer, Sir Michael

  Lait.Mrs Jacqui

  Stanley, rh Sir John

  Lansley, Andrew

  Streeter, Gary

  Laws, David (Yeovil)

  Syms, Robert

  Letwin, rh Oliver

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Liddell-Grainger, Ian

  Taylor, John (Solihull)

  Lidington, David

  Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

  Lilley, rh peter

  Trend, Michael

  Loughton, Tim

  Tyrie, Andrew

  Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

  Watkinson, Angela

  McIntosh, Miss Anne

  Whittingdale, John

  Mackay, rh Andrew

  Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

  Maclean, rh David

  Wiggin, Bill

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Wilkinson, John

  Malins, Humfrey

  Willetts, David

  Mercer, Patrick

  Wilshire, David

  Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton

  Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

  Coldfied)

  Winterton, Sir Nicholas

  Murrison, Dr. Andrew

  (Macclesfield)

  O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

  Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

  Ōpik, Lembit

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Osborne, George (Tatton)

  Mr. Eric Forth and

  Page, Richard

  Mr. Andrew Turner

  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by David Taylor, Mr. David Chaytor, Mr. Colin Challen, Tony Lloyd, Mr. Gordon Prentice, Mrs. Janet Dean, John Austin, John Cryer, Mr. Kelvin Hopkins, Mr. Roger Berry, Valerie Davey and Dr. Doug Naysmith.

  GRAMMAR SCHOOLS (BALLOTS AND CONSULTATION)
  David Tayloraccordingly presented a Bill to amend the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 in order to remove the powers to hold grammar school ballots and to require the Secretary of State for Education and Skills before the end of the next Parliament to consult all maintained primary and secondary schools in each local education authority in England on the future arrangements for secondary school admissions within that authority; and for connected purpose: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed [Bill 182].

SEXUAL OFFENCES BILL [LORDS] (PROGRAMME) (NO. 2)
Mr. Douglas Hogg: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have been trying to get the Speaker's selection list for the next Bill on the Order Paper. I had hoped to participate in the debate on the Sexual Offences Bill and that the selection
624
list would be available before it began, because it is difficult to prepare for the Criminal Justice Bill without it.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): I can tell the right hon. and learned Gentleman that one reason why the Speaker is not in the Chair and that I, as Chairman of Ways Means, am occupying his place is that he is currently engaged on that matter. I expect the selection list to he published imminently.
Mr. Hogg: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am grateful for that, but surely the situation highlights the desirability of the Government not cramming and compressing business in such a way, because if they did not, the Speaker would not be in the difficulty in which he finds himself.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I can only express sympathy to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but it is not an uncommon occurrence in the annals of parliamentary history.
Mr. Eric Forth: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Perhaps you and Mr. Speaker might consider a brief suspension of the sitting between consideration of one Bill and another. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) pointed out, it is unreasonable to expect hon. Members to participate in the proceedings on the next item without knowing what will be selected for the subsequent item. Would not a brief suspension be appropriate so that hon. Members could acquaint themselves with the selection and prepare for the following debate?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I do not believe that a suspension would be helpful. I am sure that once the Speaker's selection is known, hon. Members can ascertain the extent of the business that faces the House later.
Mr. Hogg: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. When the Speaker has made the selection and it is in the Vote Office, could you make a statement to that effect so that those of us who are participating in the debate on the first Bill can go and get it?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I shall arrange for that to be done.
Motion made, and Question proposed, pursuant to Orders [28 June 2001 and 29 October 2002],
That the following provisions shall apply to the Sexual Offences Bill [Lords] for the purpose of supplementing the Order of 15th July 2003.
Consideration of Lords Message
Proceedings on consideration of the Lords Message shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement at this day's sitting.
Subsequent stages
Any further Message from the Lords may be considered forthwith without any Question put.
Proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement.—[Charlotte Atkins.]
Question agreed to.

Orders of the Day
  Sexual Offences Bill [Lords]
  Lords message considered.
  Sexual Offences Bill [Lords]

    New Clause
    Lords amendment: No. 1A.
    1.11 pm
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Paul Goggins): I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With this we may discuss amendments (a) and (b) in lieu of Lords amendment No. 1A and consequential amendment (c).
    Paul Goggins: As I said on Report, both Houses and all parties should take the credit for progress on a difficult Bill and for the consensus that was reached. As I also pointed out on Report, the consensus includes agreement on pre-charge anonymity. However, we continue to disagree about the route that we should take to secure our objective.
    The Government strongly maintain the view that we wish to follow the route of strengthened guidance and effective codes of conduct. As I said previously, we have held discussions with the Association of Chief Police Officers and the media to attain the objective. We also strongly believe that even if it were right to legislate on the issue, it would not be right to do that in the Bill.
    Amendment (a) would provide anonymity to persons suspected of an offence under the Bill up to the point of charge. It specifies the details of a suspect that should not be published. It also provides for circumstances in which reporting restrictions could be lifted upon the application by a police officer of the rank of chief inspector or above.
    Amendment (b) would provide anonymity for those being investigated for an offence under new schedule 8 so that their names could not be reported until and unless they had been charged or a decision had been made not to prefer charges.
    Although we appear to be considering a narrow policy, there are many discrepancies between amendments (a) and (b). Amendment (b) is limited to cases about which a police investigation is under way up to the point of charge or when an investigation results in a decision to take no action. Amendment (a) but not amendment (b) would cover cases in which speculation was rife but no complaint was made or police investigation instigated.
    The penalties in amendment (a), including imprisonment up to a maximum of two years, are inconsistent with penalties that have been set for other reporting restrictions, which the level 5 fine limit in amendment (b) reflects. Amendment (b) lists the sex offences to which the reporting restrictions should apply but amendment (a) limits its scope to offences in the Bill. That means that the reporting restrictions would cover neither other sexual offences in previous Acts nor
    626
    offences relating to child pornography under the Protection of Children Act 1978. There is no obvious reason for that.
    The effect of amendment (b) is that the proprietor of a newspaper would commit a criminal offence if a member of staff revealed a defendant's identity, even if the proprietor had no knowledge of that. The amendment provides a defence when a programme is broadcast live, but not in any other circumstances.
    Both amendments provide that anonymity can be lifted by the court only on application by police of the rank of inspector or chief inspector, depending on the amendment. I believe that that would place an undue burden and difficulty on the police who investigate the crime. It could slow down progress in identifying and locating a dangerous offender. It would also mean that a victim could not apply for lifting the defendant's anonymity.
    Given the nature and tone of the debate throughout the Bill's passage, it would be unfortunate for any amendment on anonymity to be placed in clause 2, which immediately follows a clause on rape. That would fail to show sensitivity to the victims of such a crime and give the issue undue prominence. That would be an unfortunate outcome.
    We have listened carefully to representations from those who are worried about the genuine harm that can be caused by reporting defendants' details. We also recognise that much anxiety arises from the damaging publicity that is often generated pre charge. However, we firmly believe that informed and strengthened guidance to the police and the media is preferable to any change in legislation.
    The police code of conduct provides that information that comes into police possession should be treated as confidential. It should not be used for personal benefit or divulged to other parties except in the proper course of police duty. The code also demands that police officers have a specific responsibility to act fairly and impartially in all their dealings with the public and their colleagues, regardless of whether they are on duty. They should not behave in a way that is likely to bring discredit to the police service. Unauthorised disclosure of information about a suspect by a police officer is likely to be considered a breach of the code. Disciplinary proceedings may commence. An officer could face dismissal or even prosecution, depending on the circumstances of the case. In 2002–03, approximately 61 such cases were substantiated.
    An agreement has been reached with ACPO to amend its media and disciplinary guidelines to all forces to give greater prominence to the rules that govern the release of information about anyone suspected but not yet charged with an offence.
    Mr. Humfrey Matins (Woking): Given the general acceptance of the principle of anonymity for a complainant in a rape case or similar, and that the Minister understands that many potential defendants

    627
    suffer great unfairness through publicity, will he give us hope that, if not today, at some stage in the future, important measures will be introduced to protect potential defendants who are never charged but often ruined?
    Paul Goggins: I understand the hon. Gentleman's anxieties and I considered them deeply. I do not perceive a direct parallel between the interests of a complainant and those of a defendant. There is no direct read-across; the position is different, and much evidence suggests that we should consider the issues separately. However, I share his view, which he has often expressed, that anonymity should be preserved pre charge in the vast majority of cases. The question that we are debating is the route whereby we attain the objective. As I said, agreement has been reached with ACPO, which has strengthened its guidelines. The stronger guidance has already been effected, bringing the importance of the issue to the attention of police officers.
    The Government have also held proactive discussions with the chairman of the Press Complaints Commission, and the press are consequently examining their code of conduct to ascertain how it can be strengthened to ensure that those suspected but not yet charged with offences are not named in the media.
    The Government maintain a clear, consistent position on this issue. We agree, as I have just said, that in most cases there should be anonymity pre charge, and that the effective use of police and media codes is the best way to achieve that objective. I have been able to report to the House previously, and I can report again today, that progress has been and continues to be made down that route. Clearly, we are not yet in a position to judge the effectiveness of the route; we need more time to make such a judgment.
    I do not believe that the case for legislation has been made. It is clear from amendments (a) and (b) that there is still disagreement on how such a provision would be achieved if it were to be put on the statute book. There are clear differences between the proposals, which will no doubt become more apparent as the discussion unfolds. We are also strongly of the view that if the case were ever made for legislation, it should not simply be in relation to sex offences, but should be more broadly defined. All this is underpinned by the commitment made by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on Third Reading that if our efforts to move down the voluntary route do not work, further action will be needed.
    After all our deliberations in Committee and on the Floor of both Houses, we have arrived at the point at which a balanced judgment must be made about this issue in relation to the considerable benefits that will be achieved by the Bill as a whole. I hope that, as a result of our debates today, we shall be able to preserve the consensus that has emerged on the Bill. I urge Opposition Members not to press their amendments to a vote, but to support the Government's genuine efforts to build progress down the voluntary route. In the end,
    628
    this can deliver the objectives that we all seek, and I urge the House that we should commit ourselves to self-regulation rather than legislation.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Before I call the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve), may I inform the House that Mr. Speaker's selection on the Criminal Justice Bill is now available in the Vote Office?
    Mr. Dominic Grieve: May I, as usual, thank the Minister for the way in which he has presented the Government's position on this matter? I am mindful that many of the points that he has made have a great deal of force. If we could achieve a voluntary regime that restrained some of the worst excesses of the media feeding frenzies that occur when individuals are being subject to investigation and before charge, I would be heartily glad of it. I confess, however, that I have an inbuilt pessimism that that could happen under a voluntary code. I also take the view, which is shared by hon. Members on both sides of the House, that this is a serious matter that undermines the processes of justice. That said, I am aware that the amendment passed in another place, which is couched in quite vague terms and lacks detail in certain areas, is there to prompt the Government. It was with that in mind that we came up with amendment (b), to which I wish to speak briefly. I am also conscious that the Liberal Democrats have tabled an amendment that strives to achieve similar things, but in a slightly different way.
    I acknowledge that the press have a very important role to play in respect of the detection of crime and the exposure of wrongdoing. One matter that has concerned me greatly is that, if we were to have a statutory framework, it should be made clear that it would not provide a continuing prohibition on the press from reporting, with their usual fearlessness, examples of wrongdoing. For example, in an investigation in which a person was arrested but no charges were brought, if the press had material that would enable them to expose that person and face up to the laws of libel 12 months down the road, it would be quite wrong for us to introduce a fetter to prevent that from happening. Some of the early attempts to deal with this matter would have done precisely that.
    Bearing that in mind, my amendment is very tightly drawn. It seeks to deal with the specific period between the time at which an allegation is first made to the police and they decide to investigate it, and the point at which they either charge the person or announce that no criminal charges are to be brought. The provision would have to include a guidelines code that perhaps went a bit wider than that. It deals with the specific period during which, as we know from past examples, a media feeding frenzy can be at its very worst. It would not be impossible, in those circumstances, for the system to operate under a statutory code during that time.
    I accept the Government's argument that to have a disproportionate penalty in regard to these measures and those in the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999 relating to revealing the name of a 15-year-old defendant would be quite wrong. It would also be right to reduce the penalty because this should be a form of disciplinary measure against the media, rather than one that leads to people being locked up. For that reason, I differ with the Minister on whether the defence should

    629
    be available to a proprietor or editor that they did not know what material was going into a broadcast that was not going out live. I believe that it is the absolute responsibility of proprietors and editors to run their operations in a way that ensures that that does not happen. Of course, I accept that other considerations apply to live broadcasts. Indeed, in a recent case, it was precisely the utterance of a private individual during a live broadcast that started a media feeding frenzy, although at the end of the day no one was charged with an offence. I understand that, in those circumstances, it would be wrong for an editor or proprietor to be held responsible. However, if they know that an investigation is taking place, they still have a duty to take reasonably practical steps to ensure that such material is not used in a live broadcast.
    If a broadcast is not live, however, and the usual vetting procedures have taken place, excuses are not acceptable, particularly when the penalty is a mere fine. In the case of most of the proprietors that we are thinking of here, that would not be a particularly onerous burden. In that sense, this is akin to health and safety at work legislation, which places responsibilities on people not to act negligently. If they do, I believe that a rap over the knuckles is perfectly proper.
    I am mindful that I might not be able to press this amendment to a vote, because another amendment might be pressed by the Liberal Democrats. I regret that, because for reasons that I have already explained to Liberal Democrat Members, I think that my amendment is better than theirs. I also think that it comes closer to meeting the justified anxieties of the Government in regard to the far more draconian sentencing regime.
    The Minister said that our amendment contained no provision for others to appeal to get an order lifted. I have considered that, and I fully accept that there might be a way of introducing such a mechanism if the Government wanted it. The difficulty would be that, in the short period that I hope the investigation would take—normally a few months—it would put a heavy burden on the magistrates courts if they became cluttered with numerous requests from the media to lift a ban on reporting the identity of the person concerned, especially as the police are undoubtedly best placed to decide whether such a ban should be lifted if the interests of justice so require. I would hope that such a mechanism would not be necessary. If, however, the Government felt that that was essential, and came up with proposals that included such a provision, I would certainly not stand in their way. I had difficulty shaping my proposal to fit the rather tight drafting that I was trying to achieve.
    1.30 pm
    I do not want to prevent others from participating, so I shall conclude shortly. If the Liberal Democrats press their amendment to the vote, and I believe that they might be better placed to do so than we are, we will support them, not because we wish in any way to obstruct the passage of the Bill—we do not; it commands widespread support—but because there is a message here that needs to be repeated. There is
    630
    widespread public disquiet on the issue and we want to ensure that that disquiet is fully registered. If that leads to a voluntary code, so be it. If it does not, I make this request of the Minister.
    Next year, there is to be a victims and witnesses Bill. There will be an opportunity there to add a defendants' provision, which could be extended far further than sex offences, if that proved necessary. That, of course, would meet the objection that the hon. and learned Member for Redcar (Vera Baird) has frequently raised and which I understand: concentrating on sex offences sends out the wrong message. If we were to go down the road of a statutory prohibition on reporting in that brief period, I would be totally happy to see it extended to all those who are being investigated for crimes, not simply sexual offences.
    The Government have an opportunity here, and I hope that the Minister might consider that and respond positively, particularly if it becomes apparent that the voluntary framework is not working.
    Mrs. Annette L. Brooke: I rise to speak in favour of amendment (a), which in part agrees with the Government's disagreement with the House of Lords, but its intention is to achieve a measure better than that passed in the other place.
    Clearly, anonymity is a much debated issue, and there still seems to be a strong feeling in the other place that it should be extended to the point of conviction. However, I believe that the Minister has confirmed today that there is a consensus emerging that anonymity should be extended to the accused up to the point of charge. I do not want to go into the arguments—we have heard those before—but the outstanding issues are whether anonymity up to the point of charge covers all offences or just sexual offences, and whether that anonymity should he achieved by a voluntary agreement or by legislation.
    I believe that there should be anonymity up to the point of charge for all offences—I think I have made that clear throughout—and I agree with the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) that it would be good, in the event of the Government not agreeing to our amendment, to have an assurance to revisit what is an important issue among the general public.
    There is a case for addressing the issue in relation to sexual crimes. As many noble Lords argued, there is a particular social stigma attached to such crimes. We have had high-profile cases such as that of Matthew Kelly, but teachers, youth workers and many who work with young people feature at local level—their future employment prospects and their standing in the community are affected, even if there is never a charge. That is quite different from a case of theft. We have this opportunity to pass an amendment that will strengthen voluntary negotiations with the media regarding all crimes other than the sexual crimes that we have defined in the proposal.
    I appreciate the Government's ongoing talks with the police and I am pleased to hear that an agreement has been reached. It is clear that any police officer releasing

    631
    information to the media without legitimate authority to do so should be dealt with under police procedures. I am also pleased that the Government are in negotiations with the Press Complaints Commission. Like the hon. Member for Beaconsfield, I do not want to restrict freedom of the press unduly—there is always a balance to be struck—but my hon. Friends and I do not have the confidence that there will not remain a temptation to print and publish certain stories that will make for good sales.
    I want to underline a point that was made by my noble Friend Lord Thomas in the other place: if the Government want to try a voluntary arrangement, perhaps they could defer bringing the provision into operation while they make that attempt. In other words, they would have something in their back pocket. Amendments (a) and (b) have evolved from a proposal that was first tabled in Committee by my hon. Friends and me. At that stage, Conservative Members were taking a different approach, but we are pleased that there has been a process of evolution, with both opposition parties incorporating additional ideas as the consequence of discussion, which surely is a good way forward.
    Our amendment includes the waiving of the right to anonymity as well as the power to make an application to lift reporting restrictions. I contend that amendment (a) is slightly superior to amendment (b), although there is a criticism that having to go to court to lift reporting restrictions could hold up the process. However, owing to the requirement to apply to a single justice, it should be possible to deal with that quickly.
    Further, we have clearer definitions. We have been clear about the fact that there must be an intention to reveal the identity of someone against whom allegations are being made. We have made the sentences in line and consistent with other relevant legislation. The measure is approaching what could be good legislation. There are not great differences between amendments (a) and (b), because the principle that we wish to achieve is exactly the same, but I give notice that we would like to press amendment (a) to a vote.
    Vera Baird: No Tory in the House of Lords nor any Liberal Democrat there, nor even either of those parties' representatives here today in the Commons, has any interest at all in the welfare of women rape complainants—not a one. They press on with this
    proposal, knowing perfectly clearly that if they advance this argument in respect of sexual offences it will have a deleterious impact on women complainants.
    I hear worries about rape defendants, almost all of whom are male, having to be protected against allegations of wrongdoing against them being made public, in the way that allegations of wrongdoing, whoever they are made against, are made public across the board because the principle is that justice should he heard in public.
    Mr. Grieve: On that basis, presumably the hon. and learned Lady would not wish to have a voluntary code either, because that is an indication of some fetter that she considers inappropriate.
    Vera Baird: Probably the hon. Gentleman leapt to his feet as I was about to say the phrase that deals with what he is saying. The principle of justice is that justice is heard in public, and that must be maintained. If, however, there is to be some across-the-board provision, that will not have the sting that this provision—which is aimed at sexual offences, and therefore predominantly at women—inevitably will have.
    This provision says that such defendants—basically males, of course—are a special group who must not be exposed to the strain that such allegations expose them to because there is a likelier chance than in any other case that they will be acquitted. Does nobody care for a second about the number of women who are raped and sexually abused? They live lives of perpetual silent anguish, unable to come to court because, with a conviction rate of 5.7 per cent., they are quite unable to be satisfied that they are likely to get support from the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, the judiciary or anywhere else. That has been going on for years and years.
    As everyone knows, until 1992, there was no law that rape within a relationship was an offence. Of course, that carried forward to other relationships outside marriage, so women simply did not bring such allegations forward. It has taken many years for women to digest the truth that they do not have to put up with whatever is doled out to them just because they are in a relationship. Having started to take that appreciation forward, there is none the less repeated failure in the criminal justice system to achieve just convictions.
    Over the past couple of years, the Government have done their best to change things to help the women involved. That began in 1999, when they altered the rules on the admissibility of previous sexual history. The greatest deterrent to women who might otherwise have come forward was the fear that their sexual history would be tossed in their faces willy-nilly in an attempt to discredit them, but the Government have stopped that. The Bill has changed the definition of rape in a helpful way, applying sensible tests to the across-the-board statement "It does not matter what she was doing; I believed that she was consenting". The Government are making progress: they are trying to help women who have lived in silent anguish for a long time.
    Sandra Gidley: I may have intervened too early. While the explanation of the rape laws has been interesting, I fail to understand how anonymity will affect the conviction rate. Women who are frightened to come forward may be more willing to do so if they feel that they will be better protected if the identity of the accused is kept secret until he is charged. We have reversed the former situation, but I have yet to be persuaded that in this day and age, when the benefits of coming forward are emphasised so strongly, anonymity will have a detrimental effect.
    Vera Baird: I have not a clue what the hon. Lady means about securing extra protection for complainants by giving defendants anonymity, but she invites me to explain why granting them anonymity only in sexual offence cases would be deleterious to complainants, so I will do so.

    633
    There are still problems in securing convictions, and in encouraging women to come forward. Years of campaigning by women was finally ratified, as it were, by a joint report by inspectorates of the police and the Crown Prosecution Service in March 2002, which stated that cases of this kind were not pursued with sufficient vigour because of a belief among all institutions that bring them to court that they were likely to result in acquittals.
    Mr. Grieve: The hon. and learned Lady's remarks would make sense if we were dealing with anonymity throughout the trial process. In that context, I have always thought that her comments have real merit. Here, however, we are dealing with the very short period between the point at which the police are seized of the matter and start investigating the person concerned and the point at which they decide either to charge or not to charge. Given that our amendment might also apply to women accused of having sexual relations with underage boys, for instance, I am at a loss to see how it could target women in particular. I am also at a loss to see how it would prevent or hinder women victims from coming forward.
    Vera Baird: I am sorry the hon. Gentleman is at a loss. The number of women against whom there are allegations of sexual misconduct of the kind that he posits can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand in any given year, and, as he must know, almost all defendants are male. The impact of any measure levelled against defendants in such cases will fall on women defendants: that is 100 per cent. certain. It is therefore not sensible to suggest that there is any parity of concern.
    The inspectorates of the constabulary told the police that they were not investigating cases properly because they thought they would fail. The inspectorates of the CPS told the CPS that it was not trying hard enough to make the police investigate, and that it was not pursuing prosecutions vigorously enough because it too expected them to fail. There is even a substantial argument for the case that the judiciary does not put its back into trying to secure proper trials because it shares that expectation. It is all due to the old baggage that we must still carry with us.
    The Government have taken steps to improve the position. The police now have a clear policy and clear guidance to ensure that they investigate rapes properly, because the Home Office told them to obtain that guidance. As a direct result of the work of the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General, who is present, there will be specialist rape prosecutors whose guidance will require them to ensure that the police investigate properly. At long last, the judiciary will have to undertake serious sexual offence training courses to help them to understand the importance of dealing sensitively with rape cases, and of not being cavalier. All those moves convey the message that we take rape complaints seriously from day one until the final outcome. Women are being sent a good message—the message that they will be supported by the powers that be if they come forward, and that they will be given a fair hearing.
    634
    1.45 pm
    How will that message survive, though, if another message is sent by us today? What if the impression is gained that Parliament considers sexual offences so unlikely to lead to convictions that it is earmarking them for special treatment, granting anonymity only to this sector of defendants? This other message will tell people "We have gone through the motions of telling the police and the CPS to try a bit harder. We have asked the judiciary to put behind them prejudices that they have expressed all too often. But we truly, truly do not mean it, because even we think that sexual offences are highly unlikely to produce convictions."
    Of course there is concern about people who are accused before being charged, and about the publicity that follows. As almost everyone has conceded, however, that applies equally to offences across the board. The dangers of earmarking sexual offences are very clear. Women who have suffered perpetual anguish, unable to obtain justice, will be sent a message that the criminal justice system is happy in the belief that it is more important for a few defendants in a specific category not to be put through what would probably be a transient anguish. "Stay in perpetual anguish—we will not support you" is not a message that I want the House to send, and I dare say that the Government will not let it be sent.
    Mr. Douglas Hogg: I broadly sympathise with the general approach adopted in amendments (a) and (b), but I want to make four points.
    First, if we are to grant anonymity it is probably right for it to apply to all offences, not just sexual offences. I agree with the conclusion of the hon. and learned Member for Redcar (Vera Baird), although I am bound to say that I did not agree with her argument.
    My second point is fairly narrow, but it is worth bearing in mind, because the amendments may give rise to legislation. In any definition of the prohibited characteristics of the alleged offender such as appears in subsection (3) of amendment (a), it would be wise to include the relationship of that person with the alleged victim. Although that probably falls within the scope of subsection (2), once we set about identifying particulars, we had best include the relationship with the alleged victim. For example, referring to a close relative of the alleged victim would identify the person involved. That does not fall within the scope of subsection (3), but it probably does fall within that of subsection (2). In any event, I think it worth including as a specific identifying criterion.
    My third point is that it is absolutely right to provide a power to apply to the court to disapply the general prohibition. The police officer should be of a rank superior to the rank of chief inspector, which is not sufficiently high for such an important application. The Bill should prescribe the criteria that the officer has to satisfy. In the Bill, we are looking at the interests of justice, but that is a general phrase. However, in most cases, the application will be made to secure the arrest of someone who is seeking to evade arrest. It would be preferable for the criteria to be tightly defined in place of the general language in amendment (a).

    635
    My fourth point is a technical one, but it is worth making. In law, the publisher is often deemed to include the vendor. The retailer of newspapers can, for certain purposes, be described as the publisher in libel cases. Everyone who is responsible for making something public becomes the publisher. I would be surprised if anyone intends the vendor of a newspaper, as opposed to the editor or the proprietor, to be caught by the provision.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) has identified that possibility in his amendment, but amendment (a) does not cover the situation accurately. It is important to make it plain that the retailer of newspapers, who is entirely innocent in the matter, is not held liable in law, otherwise, we will interfere with free speech. Only people who are genuinely liable should be caught by the penal provision. I acknowledge that my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield has already covered that in his amendment.
    Mr. David Heath: Is there not a more general application of the point that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has just made about the definition of publisher? Do we not need a new construction of the law because the present construction is rather archaic and unhelpful in defining the difference between someone who publishes a piece of literature and someone who sells it?
    Mr. Hogg: That may be right, but one would want to look at the definition with regard to particular statutes. We do not want to revisit the general construction or interpretation of statutes measure that was passed at the end of the 19th century to make a general provisions test of the meaning of publisher. We should deal with that on a case-by-case basis.
    Paul Goggins: It was remiss of me not to offer my congratulations to the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) on his recent appointment as shadow Attorney-General. I am sure the whole House will want to join me in congratulating him now.
    As always in our debates on this issue, the nature of the discussion, while we disagree fundamentally about certain aspects, has been constructive, and our progress on the voluntary route has been genuinely welcomed by Opposition Members, for which I am grateful. The hon. Member for Beaconsfield generously acknowledged that the Government's argument has a great deal of force. Indeed, on a previous occasion, he acknowledged that the voluntary route might work. He was sceptical, as he was again today, but he did not rule it out. I urge him even at this stage to reconsider his decision on any forthcoming votes and say that he is persuaded to give the voluntary route a chance to work instead of supporting the amendment. He argued strongly that he has done his best to draw his amendment as tightly as possible, for which I pay tribute to him. Even so, the amendment gives rise to two difficulties. First, it does not rule out speculation before a police investigation has begun.
    Mr. Grieve: I entirely accept that. In a free society, that is something that it is difficult—and in some circumstances wrong—to control. If, for instance, the
    636
    police refused to take action following serious allegations about a high-profile figure, the free press might have a role to play in risking the libel laws and publishing their material. I would not dream of wanting to interfere with that.
    Paul Goggins: The hon. Gentleman's point is well made, and he has given an example of such action. The expectation out there is that the amendment would catch such behaviour, but it clearly would not.
    Secondly, I urge the hon. Gentleman to accept that the point at which it is decided not to make a charge is not always a precise moment in time, so judging when it had been reached would be tricky. In our discussions of the amendments we have said much about the media, but not about the police. I emphasise that our attempt to move down the self-regulation routes applies equally to the police and the media. I am determined to ensure that any hint or evidence that the police are passing information on to the media is dealt with most severely.
    Mr. Heath: It is not at the moment, but it should be.
    Paul Goggins: We are working with the Association of Chief Police Officers to toughen the guidelines and make sure that if money changes hands, and if it can be proved to be a criminal offence, the required action is taken. That is possible under the voluntary arrangements sought by the Government, which are not a soft option.
    Mr. Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend will know that the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport has been exercised by the problem of the newspapers, particularly the tabloids, paying journalists—[Interruption.] I am sorry, I meant paying police officers for information—paying journalists is another matter. The way in which such behaviour is caught as an offence remains uncertain. There may be disciplinary action against individual police officers, but will my hon. Friend consider including a provision in the draft corruption Bill to deal with the problem more robustly?
    Paul Goggins: I well remember a question that my hon. Friend asked and which was given a great deal of publicity at the time. He has given an example of something which, like many other matters raised in our brief debate, needs further consideration.
    The hon. Member for Mid-Dorset and North Poole (Mrs. Brooke) invited us to accept the offer made by her noble Friend Lord Thomas in another place and introduce an amendment that we would not implement. That may be intended to ensure that the message goes out that we mean business, but I hope that the media and the police clearly understand that we do mean business. The fact that we want to go down the route of self-regulation does not mean that we have gone soft. The message is extremely clear. It is important that the House does not give the impression that we pass legislation with no intention of implementing it, as that is the wrong way to legislate and cannot be justified at this point.

    637
    My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Redcar (Vera Baird) spoke with her usual eloquence and passion on these issues, and I can add little to what she said. She argued cogently for the need for openness, and reminded us of the wider context in which we are debating this narrow issue. She certainly made a powerful argument about the reasons why, even if we legislated, such provisions should not be included in the Bill.
    Mr. Grieve: A moment ago, the Minister said that it should be understood that we mean business, but what if the self-regulation route does not work? Is he in a position to give the House an assurance that in those circumstances we would legislate at an early opportunity and, in addition, legislate to cover all offences, which I have always stated would be a better option? I have to use the vehicles available to the Opposition, and we are currently dealing with a big Bill on sex offences.
    2 pm
    Paul Goggins: Earlier in the debate, the hon. Gentleman speculated about future legislation that may be before the House and about attaching provisions in this area to that legislation. I am not going to join in that speculation, although he will have noticed, as I have in the short time I have been a Minister at the Home Office, that there is legislation from the Home Office in most Sessions of Parliament. He can rest assured that, whether on this issue or others, there will doubtless be future legislation from the Home Office.
    I acknowledge, as the hon. Gentleman and others did, the widespread public concern on the matter. I make two points. First, I remind him of the comments of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on Third Reading. He made it abundantly clear to the media, the police and everyone else that, if the voluntary route down which we are going does not yield the kind of results that we all want, further action will be taken. My right hon. Friend could not have been clearer. I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider that.
    Secondly—this is an important point, which has not been made so far—we have established an inter-ministerial group to ensure that the Sexual Offences Bill is implemented across Government. Clearly, that committee, of which I will be a member, will monitor progress in this area to see whether the results and improvements that we hope and expect to see from the voluntary route have been achieved.
    I argue this case as I have argued it in Committee and on Report, and I make it absolutely clear that, if I am arguing it in the middle of tomorrow night, I will be arguing I hope just as powerfully and in precisely the same terms. I ask all hon. Members and Members of the other House to reflect on that comment and on my closing remarks.
    Lords amendment No. 1A disagreed to.
    Amendment proposed in lieu thereof: (a)—[Mrs. Brooke.]
    Question put, That the amendment be made:—
    The House divided: Ayes 173, Noes 338.

    Division No. 369]

    [2:02 pm

    AYES

    Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

    Harvey, Nick

    Allan, Richard

    Hawkins, Nick

    Amess, David

    Hayes, John (S Holland)

    Ancram, rh Michael

    Heald, Oliver

    Arbuthnot, rh James

    Heath, David

    Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

    Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

    Baker, Norman

    Hendry, Charles

    Barker, Gregory

    Hoban, Mark (Fareham)

    Barrett, John

    Hogg, rh Douglas

    Beith, rh A. J.

    Horam, John (Orpington)

    Bellingham, Henry

    Howard, rh Michael

    Blunt, Crispin

    Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

    Boswell, Tim

    Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

    Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

    Jack, rh Michael

    Brady, Graham

    Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

    Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

    Johnson, Boris (Henley)

    Brazier, Julian

    Keetch, Paul

    Breed, Colin

    Key, Robert (Salisbury)

    Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

    Kirkbride, Miss Julie

    Bruce, Malcolm

    Kirkwood, Sir Archy

    Burnett, John

    Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

    Burstow, Paul

    Lait, Mrs Jacqui

    Burt, Alistair

    Lansley, Andrew

    Butterfill, John

    Laws, David (Yeovil)

    Cable, Dr. Vincent

    Leigh, Edward

    Calton, Mrs Patsy

    Letwin, rh Oliver

    Cameron, David

    Liddell-Grainger, Ian

    Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)

    Lidington, David

    Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

    Llwyd, Elfyn

    Loughton, Tim

    Chidgey, David

    Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

    Chope, Christopher

    McIntosh, Miss Anne

    Clappison, James

    Mackay, rh Andrew

    Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

    Maclean, rh David

    Collins, Tim

    McLoughlin, Patrick

    Cotter, Brian

    Malins, Humfrey

    Curry, rh David

    Maples, John

    Davey, Edward (Kingston)

    Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)

    Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

    Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)

    Mates, Michael

    Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

    Davis, rh David (Haltemprice &Howden)

    Mercer, Patrick

    Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

    Djanogly, Jonathan

    Doughty, Sue

    Moore, Michael

    Duncan, Peter (Galloway)

    Moss, Malcolm

    Evans, Nigel

    Murrison, Dr. Andrew

    Fabricant, Michael

    Oaten, Mark (Winchester)

    Fallon, Michael

    O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

    Field, Mark (Cities of London &Westminister)

    Öpik, Lembit

    Osborne, George (Tatton)

    Flight, Howard

    Page, Richard

    Flook, Adrian

    Paice, James

    Forth, rh Eric

    Paterson, Owen

    Foster, Don (Bath)

    Pickles, Eric

    Fox, Dr. Liam

    Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

    Francois, Mark

    Pugh, Dr. John

    Garnier, Edward

    Randall, John

    Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

    Redwood, rh John

    Gidley, Sandra

    Rendel, David

    Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

    Robathan, Andrew

    Goodman, Paul

    Robertson, Hugh (Faversham &M-Kent)

    Gray, James (N Wilts)

    Grayling, Chris

    Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

    Green, Damian (Ashford)

    Roe, Mrs Marion

    Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

    Rosindell, Andrew

    Greenway, John

    Ruffley, David

    Grieve, Dominic

    Sanders, Adrian

    Gummer, rh John

    Sayeed, Jonathan

    Hague, rh William

    Selous, Andrew

    Hammond, Philip

    Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian

    639

    Shepherd, Richard

    Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

    Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

    Tyrie, Andrew

    Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

    Waterson, Nigel

    Watkinson, Angela

    Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

    Whittingdale, John

    Soames, Nicholas

    Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

    Spelman, Mrs Caroline

    Wiggin, Bill

    Spicer, Sir Michael

    Wilkinson, John

    Stanley, rh Sir John

    Willetts, David

    Steen, Anthony

    Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

    Streeter, Gary

    Williams, Roger (Brecon)

    Stunell, Andrew

    Wilshire, David

    Syms, Robert

    Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

    Tapsell, Sir Peter

    Winterton, Sir Nicholas

    Taylor, Ian (Esher)

    (Macclesfield)

    Taylor, John (Solihull)

    Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

    Teather, Sarah

    Young, rh Sir George

    Thurso, John

    Younger-Ross, Richard

    Tonge, Dr. Jenny

    Tredinnick, David

    Tellers for the Ayes:

    Trend, Michael

    Bob Russell and

    Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

    Mr. Alan Reid

    NOES

    Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

    Chapman, Ben (Wirra S)

    Ainger, Nick

    Chaytor, David

    Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

    Clapham, Michael

    Alexander, Douglas

    Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

    Allen, Graham

    Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh

    Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

    Pentlands)

    Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

    Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

    Atherton, Ms Candy

    Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

    Atkins, Charlotte

    Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge &

    Austin, John

    Chryston)

    Bailey, Adrian

    Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

    Baird, Vera

    Clelland, David

    Banks, Tony

    Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

    Barnes, Harry

    Coaker, Vernon

    Battle, John

    Coffey, Ms Ann

    Bayley, Hugh

    Cohen, Harry

    Beard, Nigel

    Coleman, Iain

    Beckett, rh Margaret

    Colman, Tony

    Begg, Miss Anne

    Connarty, Michael

    Bell, Stuart

    Cooper, Yvette

    Benn, rh Hilary

    Corbyn, Jeremy

    Bennett, Andrew

    Cousins, Jim

    Benton, Joe (Bootle)

    Crausby, David

    Berry, Roger

    Cruddas, Jon

    Best, Harold

    Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

    Betts, Clive

    Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

    Blackman, Liz

    Cummings, John

    Blears, Ms Hazel

    Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

    Blizzard, Bob

    Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

    Blunkett, rh David

    Dalyell, Tam

    Boateng, rh Paul

    Darling, rh Alistair

    Borrow, David

    Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

    Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

    David, Wayne

    Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

    Davidson, Ian

    Bradshaw, Ben

    Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

    Brennan, Kevin

    Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

    Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

    Dawson, Hilton

    Browne, Desmond

    Dean, Mrs Janet

    Bryant, Chris

    Denham, rh John

    Buck, Ms Karen

    Dismore, Andrew

    Burden, Richard

    Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

    Burgon, Colin

    Dobson, rh Frank

    Burnham, Andy

    Donohoe, Brian H.

    Byers, rh Stephen

    Drew, David (Stroud)

    Cairns, David

    Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

    Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

    Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

    Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

    Edwards, Huw

    Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

    Efford, Clive

    Caplin, Ivor

    Ellman, Mrs Louise

    Casale, Roger

    Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

    Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

    Farrelly, Paul

    Challen, Colin

    Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

    640

    Fitzpatrick, Jim

    Kidney, David

    Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

    Kilfoyle, Peter

    Flint, Caroline

    King, Andy (Rugby)

    Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

    King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green &

    Follett, Barbara

    Bow)

    Foster, rh Derek

    Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

    Foster, Michael (Worcester)

    Kumar, Dr. Ashok

    Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings

    Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

    & Rye)

    Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

    Francis, Dr. Hywel

    Lazarowicz, Mark

    Gapes, Mike (IlfordS)

    Lepper, David

    Gardiner, Barry

    Leslie, Christopher

    George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

    Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

    Gerrard, Neil

    Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

    Gilroy, Linda

    Liddell, rh Mrs Helen

    Godsiff, Roger

    Linton, Martin

    Goggins, Paul

    Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

    Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

    Love, Andrew

    Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

    Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

    Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

    Luke, Iain (Dundee E)

    Grogan, John

    Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

    Hain, rh Peter

    McAvoy, Thomas

    Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

    McCabe, Stephen

    Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

    McDonagh, Siobhain

    Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

    MacDonald, Calum

    Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

    McDonnell, John

    Hanson, David

    MacDougall, John

    Harman, rh Ms Harriet

    McGuire, Mrs Anne

    Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

    McIsaac, Shona

    Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil &

    McKechin, Ann

    Rhymney)

    McKenna, Rosemary

    Healey, John

    Mackinlay, Andrew

    Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

    McNulty, Tony

    Hendrick, Mark

    Mactaggart, Fiona

    Hepburn, Stephen

    McWilliam, John

    Heppell, John

    Mahmood, Khalid

    Hermon, Lady

    Mahon, Mrs Alice

    Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia

    Mallaber, Judy

    Heyes, David

    Mandelson, rh Peter

    Hill, Keith (Streatham)

    Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

    Hodge, Margaret

    Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

    Hoon, rh Geoffrey

    Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

    Hope, Phil (Corby)

    Marshall, David (Glasgow

    Hopkins, Kelvin

    Shettleston)

    Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

    Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

    Howarth, George (Knowsley N &

    Marshall-Andrews, Robert

    Sefton E)

    Martlew, Eric

    Howells, Dr. Kim

    Merron, Gillian

    Hoyle, Lindsay

    Michael, rh Alun

    Hughes, Beverley (Stretford &

    Miliband, David

    Urmston)

    Miller, Andrew

    Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

    Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

    Humble, Mrs Joan

    Moffatt, Laura

    Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

    Mole, Chris

    Hutton, rh John

    Moran, Margaret

    Illsley, Eric

    Morgan, Julie

    Ingram, rh Adam

    Morley, Elliot

    Irranca-Davies, Huw

    Morris, rh Estelle

    Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead &

    Mountford, Kali

    Highgate)

    Mudie, George

    Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

    Mullin, Chris

    Jamieson, David

    Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

    Jenkins, Brian

    Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

    Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

    Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)

    Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

    Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

    O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

    Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

    Olner, Bill

    Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

    O'Neill, Martin

    Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

    Organ, Diana

    Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

    Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

    Jowell, rh Tessa

    Owen, Albert

    Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

    Palmer, Dr. Nick

    Keeble, Ms Sally

    Pearson, Ian

    Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

    Perham, Linda

    Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

    Pickthall, Colin

    Khabra, Piara S.

    Pike, Peter (Burnley)

    641

    Plaskitt, James

    Soley, Clive

    Pollard, Kerry

    Southworth, Helen

    Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

    Spellar, rh John

    Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

    Squire, Rachel

    Pound, Stephen

    Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

    Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

    Steinberg, Gerry

    Primarolo, rh Dawn

    Stevenson, George

    Prosser, Gwyn

    Stewart, David (Inverness E &

    Purchase, Ken

    Lochaber)

    Purnell, James

    Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

    Quin, rh Joyce

    Stinchcombe, Paul

    Quinn, Lawrie

    Stoate, Dr. Howard

    Rammell, Bill

    Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

    Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

    Stringer, Graham

    Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N &

    Stuart Ms Gisela

    Bellshill)

    Sutcliffe, Gerry

    Robertson, John (Glasgow

    Tami, Mark (Alyn)

    Anniesland)

    Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

    Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry

    Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

    NW)

    Taylor, David (NW Leics)

    Rooney, Terry

    Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

    Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

    Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

    Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

    Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

    Ruane, Chris

    Timms, Stephen

    Ruddock, Joan

    Tipping, Paddy

    Russell, Ms Christine (City of

    Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

    Chester)

    Trickett, Jon

    Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

    Truswell, Paul

    Sarwar, Mohammad

    Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

    Savidge, Malcolm

    Turner, Neil (Wigan)

    Sawford, Phil

    Twigg, Derek (Halton)

    Sedgemore, Brian

    Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

    Shaw, Jonathan

    Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

    Sheerman, Barry

    Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)

    Sheridan, Jim

    Vis, Dr. Rudi

    Shipley, Ms Debra

    Ward, Claire

    Short, rh Clare

    Wareing, Robert N.

    Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

    Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

    Singh, Marsha

    Watts, David

    Skinner, Dennis

    White, Brian

    Smith, Angela (Basildon)

    Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

    Smith, John (Glamorgan)

    642

    Whitehead, Dr. Alan

    Worthington, Tony

    Wicks, Malcolm

    Wray, James (Glasgow

    Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

    Baillieston)

    Williams, Betty (Conwy)

    Wright, Anthony D. (Gt

    Wills Michael

    Yarmouth)

    Winnick, David

    Wright David (Telford)

    Winnick, David

    Wright Tony (Cannock)

    Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster

    C)

    Tellers for the Noes:

    Wood, Mike (Batley)

    Mr. Fraser Kemp and

    Woodward, Shaun

    Ms Bridget Prentice

    Question accordingly negatived.
    It being more than one hour after the commencement of proceedings on Lords reasons and amendments, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded to put forthwith the remaining Questions required to be put at that hour, pursuant to Order [this day].
    Resolved, That this House does not insist on its amendment No. 261 to which the Lords have disagreed.
    Government amendment (a) in lieu thereof agreed to.
    Resolved, That this House agrees with the Lords in their proposals relating to Commons amendments Nos. 105, 274 and 291.
    Committee appointed to draw up a Reason to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to the amendment proposed by the Lords in lieu of the words left out of the Bill by Commons amendment No. 1: Mrs. Annette Brooke, Paul Goggins, Mr. John Heppell, Mr. Humfrey Malins and Ms Dari Taylor; Paul Goggins to be the Chairman of the Committee; Three to be the quorum of the Committee.—[Mr. Heppell.]
    To withdraw immediately.
    Reasons for disagreeing to the Lords amendment reported, and agreed to; to be communicated to the Lords.

  Criminal Justice Bill (Programme)
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Orders [28 June 2001 and 29 October 2002],
  That the following proceedings shall apply to the Criminal Justice Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Orders of 4th December 2002 and 2nd April 2003:

  Criminal Justice Bill (Programme)

    Consideration of Lords Amendments
    Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall
    (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion six hours after their commencement at this day's sitting.
    Those proceedings shall be taken in the order shown in the
    first column of the following Table, and each part of those
    proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought
    to a conclusion at the time shown in the second column.

    TABLE

    Lords Amendments

    Time for conclusion of proceedings

    Amendments Nos. 32 to 40 and 1

    One hour and forty-five minutes after the commencement of proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments.

    Amendments Nos. 2, 4, 8, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9 to 31, 41 to 99 and 308 to 318

    Two hours and forty-five minutes after the commencement of those proceedings.

    Amendments Nos. 100 to 113

    Three hours and fifteen minutes after the commencement of those proceedings.

    Amendments Nos. 114 to 137

    Four hours and thirty minutes after the commencement of those proceedings.

    Amendments Nos. 138, 139, 167, 173, 235, 140 to 166, 168 to 172 and 174 to 202

    Five hours and fifteen minutes after the commencement of those proceedings.

    Amendment No. 203, Remaining Amendments

    Six hours after the commencement of those proceedings.

    Subsequent stages
    3. Any further Message from the Lords may be considerec
    forthwith without any further Question put.
    4. The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords
    shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a
    conclusion one hour after their commencement.—[Gillian
    Merron.]
    The House divided: Ayes 343, Noes 181.

    Division No. 370]

    [2:19 pm

    AYES

    Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

    Best, Harold

    Ainger, Nick

    Berts, Clive

    Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

    Blackman, Liz

    Alexander, Douglas

    Blears, Ms Hazel

    Allen, Graham

    Blizzard, Bob

    Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

    Blunkett, rh David

    Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

    Boateng, rh Paul

    Atherton, Ms Candy

    Borrow, David

    Atkins, Charlotte

    Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

    Austin, John

    Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

    Bailey, Adrian

    Bradshaw, Ben

    Baird, Vera

    Brennan, Kevin

    Banks, Tony

    Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

    Barnes, Harry

    Browne, Desmond

    Battle, John

    Bryant, Chris

    Bayley, Hugh

    Buck, Ms Karen

    Beard, Nigel

    Burden, Richard

    Beckett, rh Margaret

    Burgon, Colin

    Begg, Miss Anne

    Burnham, Andy

    Bell, Stuart

    Byers, rh Stephen

    Benn, rh Hilary

    Cairns, David

    Bennett, Andrew

    Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

    Benton, Joe (Bootle)

    Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

    Berry, Roger

    Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

    644

    Caplin, Ivor

    Godsiff, Roger

    Casale, Roger

    Goggins, Paul

    Caton, Martin

    Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

    Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

    Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

    Challen, Colin

    Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

    Chapman, Ben (WirralS)

    Grogan, John

    Chaytor, David

    Hain, rh Peter

    Clapham, Michael

    Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

    Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

    Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

    Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh

    Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

    Pentlands)

    Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

    Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

    Hanson, David

    Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

    Harman, rh Ms Harriet

    Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge &

    Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

    Chryston)

    Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil &

    Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

    Rhymney)

    Clelland, David

    Healey, John

    Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

    Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

    Coaker, Vernon

    Hendrick, Mark

    Coffey, Ms Ann

    Hepburn, Stephen

    Cohen, Harry

    Heppell, John

    Coleman, Iain

    Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia

    Colman, Tony

    Heyes, David

    Connarty, Michael

    Hill, Keith (Streatham)

    Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)

    Hodge, Margaret

    Cooper, Yvette

    Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

    Corbyn, Jeremy

    Hoon, rh Geoffrey

    Cousins, Jim

    Hope, Phil (Corby)

    Cranston, Ross

    Hopkins, Kelvin

    Crausby, David

    Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

    Cruddas, Jon

    Howarth, George (Knowsley N &

    Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

    Sefton E)

    Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

    Howells, Dr. Kim

    Cummings, John

    Hoyle, Lindsay

    Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

    Hughes, Beverley (Stretford &

    Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

    Urmston)

    Dalyell, Tam

    Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

    Darling, rh Alistair

    Humble, Mrs Joan

    Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

    Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

    David, Wayne

    Hutton, rh John

    Davidson, Ian

    Ingram, rh Adam

    Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

    Irranca-Davies, Huw

    Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

    Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead &

    Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

    Highgate)

    Dawson, Hilton

    Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

    Dean, Mrs Janet

    Jamieson, David

    Denham, rh John

    Jenkins, Brian

    Dismore, Andrew

    Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

    Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

    Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn

    Dobson, rh Frank

    Hatfield)

    Donohoe, Brian H.

    Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

    Drew, David (Stroud)

    Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

    Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

    Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

    Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

    Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

    Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

    Jowell, rh Tessa

    Edwards, Huw

    Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

    Efford, Clive

    Keeble, Ms Sally

    Ellman, Mrs Louise

    Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

    Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

    Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

    Farrelly, Paul

    Khabra, Piara S.

    Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

    Kidney, David

    Fitzpatrick, Jim

    Kilfoyle, Peter

    Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

    King, Andy (Rugby)

    Flint, Caroline

    King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green &

    Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

    Bow)

    Follett, Barbara

    Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

    Foster, rh Derek

    Kumar, Dr. Ashok

    Foster, Michael (Worcester)

    Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

    Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings &

    Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

    Rye)

    Lazarowicz, Mark

    Francis, Dr. Hywel

    Lepper, David

    Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)

    Leslie, Christopher

    Gardiner, Barry

    Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

    George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

    Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

    Gerrard, Neil

    Liddell, rh Mrs Helen

    Gilroy, Linda

    Linton, Martin

    645

    Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

    Robertson, John (Glasgow

    Love, Andrew

    Anniesland)

    Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

    Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry

    Luke, lain (Dundee E)

    NW)

    Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

    Roche, Mrs Barbara

    McAvoy, Thomas

    Rooney, Terry

    McCabe, Stephen

    Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

    McDonagh, Siobhain

    Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

    MacDonald, Calum

    Ruane, Chris

    McDonnell, John

    Ruddock, Joan

    MacDougall, John

    Russell, Ms Christine (City of

    McGuire, Mrs Anne

    Chester)

    McIsaac, Shona

    Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

    McKechin, Ann

    Salter, Martin

    McKenna, Rosemary

    Sarwar, Mohammad

    Mackinlay, Andrew

    Savidge, Malcolm

    McNulty, Tony

    Sawford, Phil

    Mactaggart, Fiona

    Sedgemore, Brian

    McWilliam, John

    Shaw, Jonathan

    Mahmood, Khalid

    Sheerman, Barry

    Mahon, Mrs Alice

    Sheridan, Jim

    Mallaber, Judy

    Shipley, Ms Debra

    Mandelson, rh Peter

    Short, rh Clare

    Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

    Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

    Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

    Singh, Marsha

    Marsden, Gordon (BlackpoolS)

    Skinner, Dennis

    Marshall, David (Glasgow

    Smith, Angela (Basildon)

    Shettleston)

    Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

    Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

    Smith, John (Glamorgan)

    Martlew, Eric

    Soley, Clive

    Merron, Gillian

    Southworth, Helen

    Michael, rh Alun

    Spellar, rh John

    Miliband, David

    Squire, Rachel

    Miller, Andrew

    Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

    Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

    Steinberg, Gerry

    Moffatt, Laura

    Stevenson, George

    Mole, Chris

    Stewart, David (Inverness E &

    Moran, Margaret

    Lochaber)

    Morgan, Julie

    Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

    Morley, Elliot

    Stinchcombe, Paul

    Morris, rh Estelle

    Stoate, Dr. Howard

    Mountford, Kali

    Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

    Mudie, George

    Stringer, Graham

    Mullin, Chris

    Stuart, Ms Gisela

    Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

    Sutcliffe, Gerry

    Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

    Tami, Mark (Alyn)

    Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)

    Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

    Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

    Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

    O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

    Taylor, David (NW Leics)

    Olner, Bill

    Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

    O'Neill, Martin

    Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

    Organ, Diana

    Timms, Stephen

    Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

    Tipping, Paddy

    Owen, Albert

    Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

    Palmer, Dr. Nick

    Trickett, Jon

    Pearson, Ian

    Truswell, Paul

    Perham, Linda

    Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

    Pickthall, Colin

    Turner, Neil (Wigan)

    Pike, Peter (Burnley)

    Twigg, Derek (Halton)

    Plaskitt, James

    Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

    Pollard, Kerry

    Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

    Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

    Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)

    Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

    Vis, Dr. Rudi

    Pound, Stephen

    Walley, Ms Joan

    Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

    Ward, Claire

    Primarolo, rh Dawn

    Wareing, Robert N.

    Prosser, Gwyn

    Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

    Purchase, Ken

    Watts, David

    Purnell, James

    White, Brian

    Quin, rh Joyce

    Whitehead, Dr. Alan

    Quinn, Lawrie

    Wicks, Malcolm

    Rammell, Bill

    Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

    Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

    Williams, Betty (Conwy)

    Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N &

    Wills, Michael

    Bellshill)

    Winnick, David

    646

    Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster

    Wright, Anthony D. (Gt

    C)

    Yarmouth)

    Wood, Mike (Batley)

    Wright David (Telford)

    Woodward, Shaun

    Wright, Tony (Cannock)

    Worthington, Tony

    Tellers for the Ayes:

    Wray, James (Glasgow

    Mr. Fraser Kemp and

    Baillieston)

    Ms Bridget Prentice

    NOES

    Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

    Gummer, rh John

    Allan, Richard

    Hague, rh William

    Amess, David

    Hammond, Philip

    Ancram, rh Michael

    Harvey, Nick

    Arbuthnot, rh James

    Hawkins, Nick

    Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

    Hayes, John (S Holland)

    Baker, Norman

    Heald, Oliver

    Barker, Gregory

    Heath, David

    Barrett, John

    Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

    Beith, rh A. J.

    Hendry, Charles

    Bellingham, Henry

    Hermon, Lady

    Blunt, Crispin

    Hoban, Mark (Fareham)

    Boswell, Tim

    Hogg, rh Douglas

    Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

    Holmes, Paul

    Brady, Graham

    Horam, John (Orpington)

    Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

    Howard, rh Michael

    Brazier, Julian

    Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

    Breed, Colin

    Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

    Brooke, Mrs Annette L

    Jack, rh Michael

    Bruce, Malcolm

    Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

    Burnett, John

    Jenkin, Bernard

    Burstow, Paul

    Johnson, Boris (Henley)

    Burt, Alistair

    Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

    Butterfill, John

    Keetch, Paul

    Cable, Dr. Vincent

    Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye &

    Calton, Mrs Patsy

    Inverness)

    Cameron, David

    Key, Robert (Salisbury)

    Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)

    Kirkbride, Miss Julie

    Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping

    Kirkwood, Sir Archy

    Barnet)

    Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

    Chidgey, David

    Lait, Mrs Jacqui

    Chope, Christopher

    Lansley, Andrew

    Clappison, James

    Laws, David (Yeovil)

    Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

    Leigh, Edward

    Collins, Tim

    Letwin, rh Oliver

    Cotter, Brian

    Liddell-Grainger, Ian

    Curry, rh David

    Lidington, David

    Davey, Edward (Kingston)

    Llwyd, Elfyn

    Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamfort)

    Loughton, Tim

    Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

    Davis, rh David (Haltemprice &

    McIntosh, Miss Anne

    Howden)

    Mackay, rh Andrew

    Djanogly, Jonathan

    Maclean, rh David

    Doughty, Sue

    McLoughlin, Patrick

    Duncan, Peter (Galloway)

    Malins, Humfrey

    Ewing, Annabelle

    Maples, John

    Fabricant, Michael

    Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury &

    Fallon, Michael

    Atcham)

    Flight, Howard

    Mates, Michael

    Flook, Adrian

    Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

    Forth, rh Eric

    Mercer, Patrick

    Foster, Don (Bath)

    Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton

    Fox, Dr. Liam

    Coldfield)

    Francois, Mark

    Moore, Michael

    Gale, Roger (N Thanet)

    Moss, Malcolm

    Garnier, Edward

    Murrison, Dr. Andrew

    Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

    Oaten, Mark (Winchester)

    Gidley, Sandra

    O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

    Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

    Öpik, Lembit

    Goodman, Paul

    Osborne, George (Tatton)

    Gray, James (N Wilts)

    Ottaway, Richard

    Grayling, Chris

    Page, Richard

    Green, Damian (Ashford)

    Paice, James

    Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

    Paterson, Owen

    Greenway, John

    Pickles, Eric

    Grieve, Dominic

    Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

    647

    Pugh, Dr. John

    Taylor, John (Solihull)

    Randall, John

    Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

    Redwood, rh John

    Teather, Sarah

    Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)

    Thurso, John

    Rendel, David

    Tonge, Dr. Jenny

    Robathan, Andrew

    Trend, Michael

    Robertson, Angus (Moray)

    Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

    Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

    Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

    Roe, Mrs Marion

    Tyie, Andrew

    Rosindell, Andrew

    Walter, Robert

    Ruffley, David

    Waterson, Nigel

    Russell, Bob (Colchester)

    Watkinson, Angela

    Sanders, Adrian

    Weir, Michael

    Sayeed, Jonathan

    Whittingdale, John

    Selous, Andrew

    Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

    Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian

    Wiggin, Bill

    Shephard, Richard

    Wilkinson, John

    Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

    Willetts, David

    Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns &

    Williams Hywel (Caernarfon)

    Kincardine)

    Williams, Roger (Brecon)

    Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

    Wilshire, David

    Soames, Nicholas

    Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

    Spelman, Mrs Caroline

    Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)

    Spicer, Sir Michael

    Wishart, Pete

    Stanley, rh Sir John

    Young, rh Sir George

    Steen, Anthony

    Younger-Ross, Richard

    Streeter, Gary

    Stunell, Andrew

    Tellers for the Noes:

    Syms, Robert

    Mr. Mark Field and

    Tapsell, Sir Peter

    Hugh Robertson

    Question accordingly agreed to.

Criminal Justice Bill
Lords amendments considered.
Criminal Justice Bill
  Clause 41

    APPLICATION BY DEFENDANT FOR TRIAL TO BE CONDUCTED WITHOUT JURY
    Lords amendment: No. 32
    2.31 pm
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Blunkett): I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): With this it will be convenient to take the following: Lords amendment No. 33 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendments (a) to (f) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 34 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, amendment (c) to words restored, Government amendments (a) and (b) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 35 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 36 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendment (a) to words restored, amendment (c) to words restored and Government amendment (b) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 37 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendment (a) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 38 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendment (a) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 39 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 40 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendments (a) and (b) to words restored
    Simon Hughes: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. For the sake of clarification, may I confirm that you intend us to debate Lords amendment No. 32, not Government amendment No. 32? As the former entirely contradicts the Government's view, we should clarify the point. I hope that that is helpful.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: I believe that the House understands what we are doing.
    Mr. Blunkett: Thank you for that clarification. I seek to reinstate part 7, with minor alterations that I shall mention later. On Second Reading, I said that we would respond to sensible debate and suggestions and that we would be prepared to listen to reasoned argument. It was therefore a surprise to discover that we faced neither sensible debate nor reasoned argument on part 7 of the Bill. The House of Lords chose simply to delete it, not to attempt to reflect on it, revise it or respond to my request.
    I wish, therefore, to make one or two matters clear at the beginning of this debate. First, the time for posturing is over. Our amendments respond to the debates in Committee and in the House of Lords. They respond to the sensible observations that were made despite the Lords' pyrrhic victory in deleting part 7 completely. The amendments therefore respond to the will of Back

    649
    Benchers in this House and to the reflections of the more sensible people in the upper House. I should make it clear, therefore, that we will make no further amendments to part 7. When the Bill goes back to the Lords, their lordships should consider whether they would like to see the Bill fall on the issues considered in part 7. I say that because it is time to make it clear that we are talking about some of the most organised and desperate criminals that this country has to deal with. We are not talking about people who have committed a minor crime or who have been accused of shoplifting. We are talking about organised criminality on a grand scale.
    We challenge the Opposition parties on whether they mean what they say. For example, in a Sunday paper this week, Lord Strathclyde anticipated the introduction of measures to tackle criminality in the Queen's Speech. It is blinding cheek—if I may use that term—for the Leader of the Opposition in the House of Lords to talk about the need for further legislation to tackle crime and criminals, when we are trying to tackle the most organised criminals in our community with this Bill.
    Mr. Dominic Grieve: The Home Secretary mentions organised and desperate criminals. I hope that as he develops his arguments he will explain how clause 41, which he seeks to reinstate and which would give a defendant the option to elect for trial without jury, has any relevance to the comments he has just made.
    Mr. Blunkett: I am happy to address clause 41. As the hon. Gentleman knows, I was addressing the issue of trial by jury, in relation to those who have intimidated or sought to abuse juries, and in serious fraud cases. We sought to offer a choice in clause 41. All those political parties and individual Members of Parliament who enjoin the Government to provide choice should be in favour of choice on this occasion, given that we have faith in judges and in juries. Indeed, various elements in the House have declared their undying commitment to both juries and judges. As we trust them both, providing choice is a sensible proposition.
    Mr. Edward Gamier: I am amused by the Home Secretary's remark that he has faith in judges. One of the most prominent characteristics of his time as Home Secretary has been his total lack of faith in the judiciary and his desire to make that clear. That aside, will he tell me—so that I may put this group of amendments into context—how many times a jury has been nobbled and a trial aborted as a result since the Government came to power in 1997?
    Mr. Blunkett: I will happily obtain that detail for the hon. and learned Gentleman during the course of the afternoon. However, we are not weighing numbers. As a barrister would know, the scales of justice are not about how many trials—and there have been enough—but about truth and justice. It has been erroneously suggested that we are reintroducing the Criminal Justice (Mode of Trial) Bill, which fell in the previous Parliament. I read in The Independent this morning the voices of vested interests parading their support for the
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    House of Lords in eliminating part 7 of the Bill. I do not know which side those members of the legal profession think that they are on, but this House is on the side of the innocent—those who are innocent of unwarranted charges, and the innocent in our communities, who see the perpetrators of crime go free because they dislocate, interfere with and disrupt the legal and judicial systems.
    Simon Hughes: Does the Home Secretary realise that in relation to two of the three proposals he makes to restrict jury trial—that which would allow a defendant to choose to go before a judge alone and that which would allow complex or lengthy cases to be heard by a judge alone—the argument against is not only that we might end up with a two-tier justice system, but that trial by jury is not the cause of the public's current lack of confidence in the criminal justice system? Trial by jury is what gives many people confidence in the system, because 12 ordinary people decide guilt or innocence, not one extraordinary judge. Losing trial by jury risks losing the confidence of a great number of ordinary citizens in the present jury system.
    Mr. Blunkett: We already have instances where, for all sorts of good reasons, a citizen is able to choose whether to appear before a magistrates court or before a jury. Allowing people a choice seems perfectly reasonable, as they are the ones being tried. It is in their interests that we are having this argument about what is the best method of ensuring that we convict the guilty and not the innocent.
    Mr. Douglas Hogg: Are we not in the business of trying to say where the presumption should lie? For the sort of reasons expressed by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes), should not the presumption be that a jury trial is the norm? Yet clause 41 makes it clear that, if a single defendant applies, the trial will be held by a judge, save in exceptional circumstances. In other words, the presumption is not in favour of jury trial.
    Mr. Blunkett: It is a trifle strange, then, that appeals—when the most detailed points of law are addressed—should be heard by judges, not juries. Those judges are presumed to be wise and capable enough to hear appeals. This is not a matter of interfering with our judicial system, but of providing checks and balances.
    Mr. Robert Marshall-Andrews: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
    Mr. Gamier: Will the Home Secretary give way?
    Mr. Blunkett: I will, but I am just checking whether someone behind me wants to get in. I always like to have my opponents in front of me, not behind me.
    Mr. Gamier: We are all in front of the Home Secretary.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. Robert Marshall-Andrews.
    Mr. Marshall-Andrews: Will not the amendments proposed by the Government mean that all serious and complex cases may be tried without a jury, and not just long and complex fraud cases?
    Mr. Blunkett: No, the proposals before the House are specifically intended to deal with long and complex fraud cases.
    Mr. Marshall-Andrews: Where is that made clear?
    Mr. Blunkett: I refer my hon. and learned Friend to the text of the amendments under consideration. His

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    point follows on from the point made by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes). In the light of previous debates, the Government are altering the Bill to exclude cases—apart from those that involve serious fraud—that are long and complex. We have responded to the view that it is difficult to judge what sort of cases, apart from fraud cases, would warrant such designation and treatment.
    Mr. Grieve: I am listening to the Home Secretary carefully. I hope that he will help the House in respect of that particular proposal. He will appreciate that I have not had much time to consider the matter, but my impression is that one consequence of the Government amendments would be that judicial discretion as to what constitutes a long and complex fraud case would be removed. It is envisaged that the prosecutor will serve a notice, but as far as I can see, that notice will not be open to challenge, and there will be no opportunity for a judge to exercise discretion in respect of it. It would be useful for the Home Secretary to deal with that important matter.
    Mr. Blunkett: It is an important point, but the debate on this clause is confined to long and complex fraud cases, for the reasons that I have enunciated. As has been spelled out before, the matter is open to challenge. The Serious Fraud Office would investigate such cases, and the presumption put forward by the Crown Prosecution Service would be open to challenge. No one has indicated anything to the contrary, but the proposals are designed to ensure that we can get to the truth.
    2.45 pm
    Simon Hughes: This is very important territory, and I concede that the Home Secretary has moved to limit the proposal to fraud cases. However, there are two strong arguments against his case. First, there is a much higher conviction rate in most long and complex fraud cases than elsewhere in the jury trial system, and the SFO has testified to that. Secondly, almost everyone who has participated in such trials understands that there is normally only one fundamental and simple issue—is the person honest or dishonest? That question can be understood by a cross-section of the population in a jury of 12 as well as it can be understood by a judge who, by definition, is a jury of one.
    Mr. Blunkett: We have been through all this on previous occasions. We are talking about the existing Highams cumulative test. The amendment restricting the proposals to serious fraud trials was designed to ensure that juries in those cases did not have to deal with a range of issues. We want to ensure that people found guilty on a simple test case cannot walk away, and that jury members in trials that last a long time do not end up being discharged because they cannot serve for that length of time.
    On Second Reading, I gave the example of the Maxwell trial, in which 750 people were discharged before it was possible to elect a jury. People need to hold down jobs and have a life, and cannot be tied up for a year, or even longer in some cases. It is very difficult to get a jury of 12 good men and women of true origins and citizenship who reflect the community. We have been
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    through all that before, and people either agree or disagree that we must get to grips with cases that otherwise are likely to end in acquittal. Such cases include the Levitt case and the Blue Arrow case when the courts themselves expressed concern about the threat to justice posed by the way that they were conducted.
    Mr. Grieve: Only a week or a fortnight ago, the Government indicated to Opposition parties that they were minded to introduce the Law Commission's proposals on multiple offending on Third Reading in the Lords. That would enable specimen counts to continue to be brought, but it very often happens in fraud cases that multiple identical matters need to be taken into consideration. In such cases, the Law Commission proposals mean that it would be possible for a judge alone to determine those matters at a Newton hearing following conviction on the specimen counts. We made it clear that we supported the Law Commission's initiative, but the Government chose not to introduce those proposals on Third Reading. Should not those proposals be closely linked to any reconsideration of whether juries should try fraud cases? Is not the uncoupling that the Government have performed regrettable?
    Mr. BlunkettLet us be clear about this: we are in favour of those proposals. From what the hon. Gentleman has said, I take it that the Conservative party also agrees with them. However, there is no timetabling of debate in the Lords—and the recent Division in this House shows that the Opposition would vote against the establishment of any such system in the other place. Extending Report stage to a fifth day would have extended the debate and disrupted consideration of other clauses. We would then have had to take the Bill even closer to the wire when it comes to the Queen's Speech. We do not want any posturing this afternoon about whether the Opposition would have negotiated a timetable for acceptance on Third Reading of the Law Commission proposals. I repeat that the Government are in favour of them, and we will introduce them at the earliest opportunity, but we cannot have games in respect of this matter. There is no procedure in the House of Lords for any sort of timetable or closure mechanism, nor any provision for the operation of the Speaker and Deputy Speaker system that is normal in the House of Commons. Until we have such a system in the Lords, we cannot take anyone's word that that House will be in favour of anything that we propose.
    Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: I am not a lawyer, and I listen in some bemusement when those of my colleagues who are lawyers discuss the finer points of law. My involvement in this matter is very basic, therefore. I believe that any loss of trial by jury, regardless of what is said in the House, will lead almost inevitably to the removal of rights that have been enshrined in this country for many hundreds of years. I am sorry to say that it is not clear to me what my right hon. Friend is saying. Is it that we have to go ahead with this very basic change because the House of Lords does not proceed in a way that he finds acceptable? If so, that is extremely worrying.
    Mr. Blunkett: I shall try to clarify matters for my hon. Friend. In response to the intervention from the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve), we are talking not about the amendments that I am moving this afternoon but about multiple cases where, at present, we have to take a specimen case when dealing with complex and serious fraud. The official Opposition pointed out that they were prepared to support the Law Commission's recommendations, which we support, that would allow those multiple provisions to be dealt with on the back of a specimen case. We are not dealing with that matter this afternoon and it is not material to the amendments under discussion, but it was material to the point that I was making to the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey. I would hate there to be any misunderstandings about that.
    Simon Hughes: Will the Home Secretary confirm that all the legislation that has come from his Department this parliamentary year has received a huge amount of co-operation from the House of Lords? The Government have accepted that owing to the lack of timetabling in the Lords, the upper House has been able to consider matters that the Commons has not been able to consider and has made great improvements, for example to the rape provisions in the Sexual Offences Bill. The Government have fixed the deadline—the backstop of the date of the Queen's Speech—and they are setting the limits to our debate. If the Lords do not agree tomorrow to what the Government propose on jury trial today, it will be the Government's insistence on such matters that will derail the Bill and not the insistence of the Opposition.
    Mr. Blunkett: I do not accept that at all. I paid tribute on Third Reading of the Sexual Offences Bill to the work that had been done in both Houses, to which the House of Lords contributed. The same is true of the Extradition Bill, the Crime (International Cooperation) Bill and, to a lesser extent, the Anti-social Behaviour Bill; it is not true of the Criminal Justice Bill. We are debating the reinstatement of part 7. How can the hon. Gentleman suggest that the Lords did a superb job of scrutiny and revision when they simply knocked that part out altogether? It does not bear thinking about.
    Furthermore, on the serious risk of jury tampering—I want to get to clause 43—trials that fail are a major worry throughout the country. People see those accused of the most serious crimes going free not because the system worked, but because it was tampered with so as to make a conviction impossible. One of our most senior judges wrote to my noble Friend Baroness Scotland, just before he was elevated to the Appeal Court, to describe his experiences. He was talking about an organised crime case that took more than three years. Each year, the jury was nobbled—it was discharged twice—although the case was finally concluded. He said that it was surely not a coincidence that the key players were acquitted after those three years and only the minor ones convicted.
    If we do not change the law, we will end up with such situations over and over again. We will end up with what is happening in Merseyside with Operation Dolphin, where serious and organised criminality is taken to court again and again but the juries are tampered with-
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    people are either threatened or bribed—and discharged. Would it really be sensible to say in such circumstances that the judge could not carry on with the trial, which is what the Opposition amendments suggest? Given that the original jury have been tampered with and the next jury would know that, it would be difficult to get another jury and they would be under constant threat too.
    I was asked how many trials had been discontinued because the jury had been threatened or intimidated. In London alone, we are spending more than £9 million on constant 24-hour surveillance for a large number of trials. Of course, 24-hour surveillance, support and protection will continue, but we will ensure that the
    course of justice can take shape—clause 43 deals with
    this—in such cases. It will not be whispering in the ear
    of the judge, as was mentioned, because we have tightened the criteria for the evidence of serious risk—the real and present danger—which echoes the common-law test for police protection in those cases to ensure that we get it right.
    Mr. Grieve: Those figures are important. The fact that £9 million has to be spent in that way is regrettable, but it is necessary and it is a drop in the ocean compared with the overall bureaucracy costs of the Home Office. However, the Home Secretary did not answer the question, which was how often juries had to be discharged because of nobbling, which is not the same as having to provide them with protection.
    Mr. Blunkett: That will be in the hands of the judge, who has to agree to the discharge of a jury because of what we will describe from here on in as jury nobbling. He has to determine whether the jury should be reformed and the case passed on or whether he should continue with it, and it is right that he should do so. We should not allow those who want to disrupt, dislocate and destroy the course of justice to succeed. When the end of a trial approaches and they fear conviction, they intervene. Let me be clear about this; let us get into the real world—the world not of inciting people to commit judicial murder, but of injecting a little common sense into the debate. People do not disrupt and intimidate juries, threaten their lives and those of their families, telephone them or email them if they believe that the accused is about to be acquitted; they do so for one reason only—because they think that those in front of the judge and jury will be convicted. They do so to ensure that the jury cannot continue and will not convict. We are dealing not with innocents abroad—we
    appear to be doing so in here, but not out there—but with the real world of people who are determined to threaten other people, and in some cases to take their lives and liberty.
    Mr. Hogg: May I take the Home Secretary back to clause 41, which enables a defendant to make an application to be tried by a judge and not a jury? Are we not simply giving a defendant the right to choose the tribunal that, in their opinion, is most favourable to their interests? That would simply make life easier for the sort of people that the Home Secretary is busily criticising.
    Mr. Blunkett: I would hardly do that if I thought that a judge sitting alone was an advantage to the organised criminal, would I? I do not believe that it is. As I spelled out, I believe that in cases where a jury has been intimidated for the sole purpose of getting an acquittal or disrupting a trial so that the jury has to be discharged, a single judge should take the case forward. I have confidence that the judge would not be intimidated and that that system would lead to a fair trial, with the innocent being acquitted and the guilty convicted. I can hardly be expected to contradict that belief by contradicting myself on clause 41. In other words, I think that judges are in a position to make those judgments sensibly.
    Vera Baird: I can see the merit and strength of my right hon. Friend's arguments about clause 43. May I ask him about two points? First, in Committee, we were given the assurance that the provisions would be used only as a last resort and that, for instance, attempts would be made to move the trial to a different location, or juries would be offered taxis to and from court so that knowledge about the place in which they lived would not be readily available. We were assured that all those steps would be taken and that the provisions would be engaged only as a last resort.
    Secondly, my right hon. Friend talked about not pouring nonsense into the judge's ear and said that he was trying to tighten up the measure to deal with that concern. I am grateful for that. However, the difficulty has been raised that the prosecution might want to say things to the judge, to persuade him to try the case alone, that could not be disclosed to the defendant. Has my right hon. Friend applied his mind to that problem?
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    Mr. Blunkett: On the first point, yes, every measure should be taken to ensure that due protection is provided, including relocation where appropriate. In fact, we have gone further by setting out examples to show where we believe it would be necessary to invoke the new provisions, such as retrial, following tampering in previous proceedings involving the defendant, or where such disruption had taken place and where intimidation or attempted intimidation was shown to have occurred in the light of the strict requirements that I set out earlier. We have gone further by including such provisions in the Bill. I shall give way to my hon. and learned Friend again so that she can explain the latter part of her lengthy question.
    Vera Baird: I thank my right hon. Friend for his assurance that trial by judge alone would be used only as a last resort.
    My second point was that in order to persuade a judge that he should try a case on his own, it might be necessary for the prosecution to say to that judge, "We have intelligence of the following kind". It might not be in the public interest to disclose such material to the defendant, but how is the defendant to argue for his right to jury trial in that situation? When I raised a similar point on an earlier occasion, my right hon. Friend thought that there might be a possibility of appointing special counsel, such as those he is familiar with at the Special Immigration Appeals Commission, so that someone can represent the interests of the
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    defendant in challenging that ex parte evidence without the obligation to report back to the defendant what he has heard. I hope that I have made the position clear.
    Mr. Blunkett: I am familiar with my hon. and learned Friend's point about public interest immunity. She will be familiar with the case of Edwards and Lewis, where the judgment was unclear. We think that there is a need for clarity and, unusually, we have referred the matter to the Grand Chamber and we shall be prepared to look at and take the necessary steps to ensure that safeguards are set up. The point is serious, but there is not yet sufficient clarity for us to be able to deal with it this afternoon.
    Clause 45 includes further provisions to deal with discharge due to tampering. I am at something of a loss in relation to the Opposition proposition and its relationship to clause 43. Our proposition is twofold: to make it clear that jury tampering must be the prime cause of discharge; and to insert provisions to make it clear that the judge must be absolutely satisfied that jury tampering has taken place before continuance without a jury.
    We are mystified by the Opposition's proposal as it seems to confuse several issues in respect of the risk of tampering and where tampering has already taken place. They appear to be ratcheting up the conditions so that the threshold is higher. They appear unsure whether they want the excessive burden of 24-hour police protection to be a condition, and they do not appear to want the judge to carry on with a case when he or she has discharged the jury because tampering has occurred. I am at a loss to understand either how that relates to their amendments to clause 43 or how it would assist us to find a way forward. I presume that is why, in their wisdom, the Lords chose to throw the whole lot out rather than assisting us in finding a solution.
    Mr. Grieve: I am sorry that the Home Secretary cannot understand two perfectly simple concepts in respect of clauses 43 and 45. Where it is suggested that there should be no jury because of a risk of nobbling, but in fact no such jury tampering has taken place, we believe that an extremely high test should be applied before such a measure is implemented—if indeed it is implemented at all. We take the view that the question whether juries require police protection is not material at that point; the question is whether tampering would still take place. Where tampering has already taken place we think that there should be a different test because we accept the principle that it is extremely important that justice can continue to be done. Nevertheless, we think that the Government's proposals on clause 45 are far too loose and should be tightened up, which is what we have tried to do.
    Mr. Blunkett: I certainly concede that the Opposition want to tighten up the proposals—they want to tighten them so much that they would be difficult to operate. My point is that we have a common-law test—I referred to it earlier—and we also have the new presumptions that I am setting out in the Bill. In addition, the judges will have to apply a test in respect of the protections that are being offered, such as the requirement for 24-hour protection—is it possible to protect the 12 members of the jury on an ongoing basis, week by week, or has the

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    perceived and real threat of intimidation reached the point where it is impossible to secure a fair trial? In the cases that I have cited this afternoon, that was clearly not so.
    I am sure that everyone in the Chamber wants to ensure that serious criminals do not go free when they are guilty simply because they have been able to exercise intimidation. If we believe that, the argument between us is about the point at which we can be secure in our minds that the tests have been passed and that it is better to have a judge sitting alone rather than a mistrial when criminals walk free. That is what we are talking about.
    Our proposals do not threaten the basis of jury trial. The then Lord Chancellor, the Attorney-General and I discussed and agreed my suggestion that we should not proceed with the previous mode of trial Bills, and we are not doing so. As I said on Second Reading, the suggestion that we are doing that is an outrage—it distorts the situation beyond belief and misleads people of very good will into believing that we are doing something that we are not. We seek to protect justice, to get to the truth and to ensure that the amendments that we are putting back, and to which we are asking the House of Lords to agree, both reflect the debate over the Bill that has taken place over the past few months and secure the original intention—to ensure that we protect the public in those circumstances.
    In the end, justice is about securing protection for the innocent in the community as well as for the accused, but it is also about getting to the truth and protecting ourselves. It is no good the Opposition presenting themselves as reinvigorated with the desire to demonstrate their commitment against criminals and their belief in the protection of the public if they come here this afternoon, go to the Lords tomorrow or come to the Commons tomorrow evening to suggest that our measures are not proportionate to ensure that we achieve that goal. They are proportionate. People will be asking a serious question: whose interests would we be following if we gave greater protection to organised criminals before the court than to the communities that we represent? That is why I am moving the amendments.
    Mr. Grieve: I am sorry that the Home Secretary seems to have adopted a tone of irritation, rather than rationally discussing the matters that the House must consider. I am also sorry that, in doing so, he seems very keen to cast aspersions on the motives of others and to be quite unable properly to envisage why the other place took such exception to the proposals on jury trial. He does not help his case by being unable or, apparently, unwilling to distinguish between the extremely different issues that surround the Government's proposals to fetter jury trial.
    The debates on Second Reading and in Committee in the other place were extremely interesting, but from reading the report of the Second Reading debate I was most forcefully struck by the words of Lord Clinton-Davis—a stalwart member of the Labour party:
    "To remove juries in allegedly complex cases supposedly too complex for them is utterly wrong. I agree with those in another place that what the Government are prescribing could end with the abolition of jury trials altogether. That may not be their present intention—but it remains a real risk."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 16 June 2003; Vol. 649, c. 613.]
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    If the Home Secretary wants an explanation of why the Lords took such a hostile view, let me say that it was because of that very real and justified fear.
    Mr. Hogg: Does my hon. Friend agree with the rather unpalatable truth that the views expressed in the other place are a more genuine expression of the will of the participants in the debate than the views expressed in this House, because the whipping system in this House has the effect of undermining the legitimacy of the views expressed in a vote?
    Mr. Grieve: I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend is right. Of course, there is a lot of experience, freedom and loyalty in the other place, and I am sure that Lord Clinton-Davis would not have lightly expressed a hostile opinion on the Home Secretary's proposals, given his affection for the party in which he has spent most of his career. Furthermore, I am sure that he would not have done so unless he was expressing deeply held beliefs.
    I ask the Home Secretary, rather than making general comments on the totality of the proposals, to consider each Government proposal in turn. He made great play of the fact that we are dealing with serious, organised and desperate criminals, but he must accept that clause 41, which he seeks to reintroduce and which gives a defendant the option of being tried in front of a judge alone, undermines the principle of jury trial, which I thought the Government supported, and has no relevance whatever to tackling serious and desperate criminals.
    The chances are that many of those who will choose that route are everyday, tuppeny-ha'penny criminals. Interestingly, the Government propose a distinction in clause 41: they appear to be worried that, in some cases, the general public might feel great anxiety about certain criminals having the option of being tried by judge alone, so they seek to fetter that discretion under subsection (6).
    I hope that the Home Secretary will repeat this afternoon that the Government believe, as we believe, that the principle of trial by jury is one of the hallmarks of our participatory democracy and that, therefore, if there are good and sound reasons for change—as in Northern Ireland, where the Diplock courts became necessary because of the security situation—that is one thing, but that it is quite another arbitrarily to undermine that principle for no good reason. That, however, is what clause 41 would achieve. I have never understood its logic, unless the Government are looking ahead to a time when jury trial starts to wither on the vine.
    I believe in jury trial, precisely because it is a process by which not the state but the public at large bring condemnation on individuals' conduct because they wish to be protected from those individuals. It is an absolutely central concept, and I am sorry that the Home Secretary seems to have completely lost that view of it.
    David Winnick: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, to a large extent, he has expressed a view that I, as one of the few non-lawyers in the Chamber, share? Although the Home Secretary has

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    stated that the purpose is not to undermine trial by jury in general, potentially, if not inevitably, there is always a fear, which is in my mind, that once the proposal has been enacted it could be applied to other cases and in future only a minority of cases will be heard by a jury. Although I am not sure whether I shall vote against the Government, I would find it very difficult to vote for what the Home Secretary is recommending.
    Mr. Grieve: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, and I take seriously the views that he expresses. Once one undermines the concept and principle of jury trial, as envisaged in clause 41, siren voices will soon be heard in the Treasury and elsewhere saying how much cheaper it is to have trial by judge alone. In those circumstances, why go to the bother of all those poor people being empanelled and being put upon to serve on juries? Why have all those funny processes by which funny points have to be argued in the absence of the jury? Of course, juries are less convenient, but I believe that, in a country such as the one in which I wish to live, they are an inconvenience worth paying for over and again.
    3.15 pm
    Mr. Gamier: Was not one of the most telling remarks that the Home Secretary made during his somewhat unput-together defence of this part of the Bill his reference to £9 million? When my hon. Friend and I have asked him about the number of juries that have been nobbled he has not been able to provide us with an answer, yet he has come up with the fact that a trial is costing £9 million to protect. Frankly, so what? [HON. MEMBERS: "It is an annual figurel It may be an annual figure, but it is tiny.
    Mr. Blunkett: It is not a tiny figure.
    Mr. Gamier: It is a tiny figure when one considers the fact that the cost of criminal justice is measured, I would guess, at about £1 billion a year. If one additionally bears in mind the police budget and judges' salaries, £9 million is a tiny figure compared with the overall figure that the state is required to pay for the justice system. Is it not interesting that the Home Secretary seems more terrified of the Treasury and the paltry figure of £9 million than he is of failing to defend the interests of justice for the public overall?
    Mr. Grieve: I agree with my hon. and learned Friend. The Home Secretary has given that figure and, yes, I very much wish that juries did not have to be protected, but that is a price that we have to pay in a difficult environment to ensure that justice is done in the way that we think is right. Adducing that argument is completely different from saying that it is impossible to protect juries, and it is the mixing of those two things that I find so worrying in the Home Secretary's approach, because there have been a series of propaganda utterances, rather than a rational discussion of the issues.
    I do not want to take up too much of the House's time—I am aware that other hon. Members wish to speak—so I shall turn to the next issue in which the Government wish to fetter the right to trial by jury: certain complex or lengthy trials. I was somewhat
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    charmed—I suppose that is how I should describe it—to
    hear that the Home Secretary felt that the original Government text had to be amended at this late stage, given the risk that the scope of those trials might go well beyond fraud to other types of case. I remember pointing out that risk very gently in Committee. I said that the only area in which I practise—health and safety at work—would fall squarely within those provisions, and the Minister told me that I was completely wrong. That does not exactly raise my confidence in the Government's competence.
    The other point that the House must consider very carefully is that, even by the Government's standards of drafting, clause 42, whatever flaws it may have contained, previously provided a measure of judicial discretion. As I understand it, however, under the new proposal, by having trial on the back of a notice under section 51 B of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998—which I had considerable difficulty finding until I realised that it is inserted by the Bill and exists only as a figment of the
    drafter's imagination—there will be no discretion. If I
    am wrong, I hope that the Home Secretary will correct me. The question of judicial discretion runs right through these proposals. The Home Secretary might recall that when this matter was debated on Second Reading, Lord Woolf, the Lord Chief Justice, forcefully expressed the most grave concern about the totality of these proposals:
    "I recognise that many strong and sincere opposing views will undoubtedly be advanced to your Lordships. In those circumstances, instead of becoming involved in the matters which will be well ventilated before your Lordships, I propose merely to stress that if these powers remain part of the Bill, it should be made clear that they can be exercised only when it is in the interests of justice for this to happen. That should ensure that there is the minimum risk of the exercise of those powers resulting in injustice."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 16 June 2003; Vol. 649, c. 573.]
    If this measure fetters judicial discretion, it runs contrary to the tenor of that argument.
    Mr. Blunkett: I want to make it absolutely clear that I agree entirely with the Lord Chief Justice's comments. As far as I am aware, the new clause's provisions on discretion reflect the tenor of the hon. Gentleman's amendment—that, taking clauses 43 and 45 together, the discretion would be removed because there would be no power for a judge to decide to continue to sit in prolonged trials; there would have to be a fresh trial and a jury reconvened.
    Mr. Grieve: If the Home Secretary will allow me, I shall return to that point when I come to clauses 43 and 45, because I think that he is wrong on that issue, and I shall explain why.
    The Opposition do not believe that the proposals on complex or lengthy trials are necessary. In the current year, the Serious Fraud Office, which deals with the most complex cases, has achieved a conviction rate of 92 per cent. Since it was set up, it has achieved a conviction rate of 84 per cent. That simply does not support the Home Secretary's view that juries are unable to deal with long and complex trials.
    The Home Secretary knows of the Law Commission's recent proposals on multiple offending, which is closely

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    linked to fraud. In many instances, a trial for fraud will involve specimen counts, with many other offences being taken into consideration. I fully accept that the mischief at the moment is that, short of having a lengthy trial, it is difficult to deal with those offences if a defendant who has been convicted does not accept them. That is why I was delighted when the Government suggested that they intended to incorporate the proposals on multiple offending in this Bill. I believe that such a proposal would be given a fair wind were it ever to come before this House. It is precisely because such procedures may exist that the House should be so cautious about, in the same breath, getting rid of juries for lengthy and complex trials. I do not believe that is necessary. The need will certainly be reduced, and, as I asked the Home Secretary, where is the evidence that juries cannot deal with such cases? If the evidence is that they can do so, what possible good reason exists to fetter their right to hear those cases in exactly the same way as they deal with any other criminal who is alleged to have committed an indictable offence?
    Mr. Hogg: Does my hon. Friend also agree that a jury is much more likely to be able properly to consider a case if substantive offences are charged rather than the Crown coming forward with a charge of conspiracy?
    Mr. Grieve: Speaking from personal experience, my right hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right on that point. Keeping matters simple is in the interests of justice and of achieving the conviction of the guilty, and my experience is that fraud trials tend to go wrong when the prosecutor overloads the indictment and fails to keep matters simple. Oddly enough, when matters become muddled for the jury, they also become muddled for the public, so the risk with trial by judge alone in long and complex fraud trials is that matters will appear so esoteric that, even if a conviction is recorded by the judge, the public will fail to understand the full extent of the criminality of the person concerned, which we should avoid.
    Mr. Blunkett: Is the hon. Gentleman's proposition that it is more important that the public should understand what went on, even if a guilty man is found innocent, than it is to get a conviction, even if the public were not absolutely clear about the exact nature of a trial that lasted for 18 months or more? Does not that fly in the face of the Roskill report of 1986, with which he will be familiar as a lawyer?
    Mr. Grieve: Justice must be done and be seen to be done. It is desirable that both those things should happen, and I believe that both those things can happen. In the light of the Serious Fraud Office's excellent work in simplifying fraud trials and bringing them to a conclusion, and of the Government's proposals on multiple offending, which could be of great benefit, I do not believe that the proposed measure is necessary. If necessity could be made out, I am sufficiently pragmatic to listen carefully to what the Home Secretary has to say. Where is the necessity for this measure?
    I want to deal finally with the issue of jury tampering, on which there are two distinct clauses. One provides a
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    mechanism by which a judge may try a case without a jury when he considers that there is a risk of jury tampering but none has occurred. The second deals with instances in which jury tampering has taken place, such that a jury must be discharged in the course of a trial. If I may say so to the Home Secretary, those are two very different concepts. There is, however, one thing on which he and I can entirely agree: it would be a disaster if a state of affairs were ever to exist in this country whereby trials could not take place at all because of jury tampering, and justice could not be done. That was what underpinned the decision to set up Diplock courts in Northern Ireland, and I fully understand the rationale, even if I regret that a state of affairs arose that made that necessary.
    Clause 45 deals with jury tampering. I say to the Home Secretary, as I said in Committee—and, heaven knows, as I said to the Prime Minister one day in Prime Minister's Question Time—that I understand what the Government are trying to achieve. If, as the Home Secretary says, the evidence is such that this is a deteriorating situation that is gravely inhibiting the processes of justice, we are prepared to co-operate with the Government to try to arrive at a formula that would allow for trial without a jury in those exceptional circumstances. The Home Secretary told me earlier that the amendment that I tabled to tempt the Government into dialogue was flawed because it did not envisage the judge continuing with the trial on his own. If he cannot understand why it would be impossible for a judge to continue with a trial on his own after the discharge of a jury, he does not understand some of the basic and elementary features of the criminal justice system. That situation might cause the utmost unfairness. It could not rationally be done, so there would have to be a retrial in front of a judge. if that was the exceptional course that had to be adopted.
    Mr. Hogg: May I reinforce my hon. Friend's point by putting an example to him? In the first trial, there could have been a whole class of evidence that is not used in the second trial. In such circumstances, the trial judge would inevitably have in mind material that was adduced in the first trial, but not in the second one.
    Mr. Grieve: My right hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right. It would be impossible and undesirable for a judge to continue in such a situation. We would need a fresh trial with a fresh judge.
    Mr. Blunkett: I hope that this will be my final intervention on the hon. Gentleman's speech. Does he therefore agree, in the same vein, that where a jury had been intimidated it would be difficult for witnesses who had already given evidence to be called in the second trial? That situation is not impossible, but it would be difficult, as the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) pointed out. One must compare witnesses who put their necks on the block with judges making judgments or the need for a jury to hear evidence presented in a new way.
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    Mr. Grieve: I accept that there might be difficulties. I have been involved in retrials, where witnesses have been put to the inconvenience of returning.
    Mr. Blunkett: Threat.
    Mr. Grieve: The Home Secretary says "threat", and there are occasions when witnesses are threatened. Equally, however, it is not possible to hold a fair trial if the procedure shifts from trial by jury to trial by judge alone halfway through a case. It is as simple as that—it is not procedurally possible.
    Mr. Elfyn Llwyd: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Would the provision not be in breach of article 6 of the European convention on human rights, because there could not be a fair trial in such circumstances?
    Mr. Grieve: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. The provision would be in breach of article 6. It is a nonstarter. Leaving aside everyone else's views about the Bill, all the lawyers who practise in the courts to whom I have spoken regard the measure as nonsense and completely unworkable.
    Mr. Gamier: May I give my hon. Friend a further example to help him to destroy the Home Secretary's non-argument? No one in their right mind would think it right to allow a retrial to take place in front of the original jury who had heard prejudicial evidence against the defendant. Simply transferring the tribunal of fact from the jury to the original judge would not cure the position. I would have thought that Ministers might have got their heads around that much.
    Mr. Grieve: I agree with my hon. and learned Friend, although part of the Government's idea is that the judge continues seamlessly, which is equally impossible.
    I hope that the Home Secretary will consider our amendment to clause 45. Of course, it is drafted using tighter language than his provision because I want the courts to make examinations in minute detail if applications are made for a retrial without a jury, because juries can often consider cases after jury nobbling has occurred. I hope that the way in which we have drafted the amendment—it includes the word "sure" and relates to a great risk—would help to achieve that.
    I turn to applications by the prosecution for a trial to be conducted without a jury if there is a danger of jury tampering. The Home Secretary expressed surprise that our amendments were differently worded, but that is because they address two completely different situations. [Interruption.] The amendments are not contradictory, and if the Home Secretary wishes to intervene, I shall give way. There is no contradiction because we say that before a jury is empanelled, there must be an overwhelming risk of jury tampering in order to show that a fair trial could not take place. A court should not consider how long a trial will last or issues of protecting juries at that time. It should decide on a simple question: if a jury were given protection in the usual way, would there be such an overwhelming risk
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    that jury tampering would take place that it would justify an exception to the rule that there should be a trial by jury? I hope that the Home Secretary will think about that further.
    Mr. Marshall-Andrews: Will the hon. Gentleman put his mind to one thing that relates to both his amendment and the Government text, because it appears to many Labour Members that they suffer from the same danger of causing an injustice? If one defendant, however minor, in a case with, say, five, six, seven, eight, nine or 10 defendants is, or may be, guilty of jury nobbling, all defendants would lose their right to jury trial. Furthermore, under the Government's proposed subsection (7) to clause 43, which gives examples, all defendants would lose their right to jury trial in any future trial, as would anyone they were tried with in that future trial. I welcome the hon. Gentleman's views on that because I agree with much of what he says.
    Mr. Grieve: I have no difficulty agreeing with the hon. and learned Gentleman. That said, in a spirit of constructive dialogue with the Home Secretary, I am prepared to work my mind around to the possibility that one could end up with a case, although I find such examples far-fetched, in which it was apparent from preceding events that the ability of a jury to try the case without being tampered with, intimidated or prevented from returning a true verdict was such that it would be proper to adopt a Diplock court approach. The hon. and learned Gentleman is right that that would raise a concern about future trials. A fresh look should be taken at future cases and they should not be tainted by what happened before. That is undoubtedly one problem with the Government's proposals.
    I do not want to take up more of the House's time. Others wish to speak. I simply say to the Home Secretary that I hope he understands how the Opposition see the problem. We want a constructive engagement on jury tampering, if that is possible. Beyond that, however, I had hoped that the Government would adopt a more flexible approach to the issues, which have caused great anxiety across parties, but I regret to say that they have not done so. Even at this late stage, I hope that the Home Secretary will revise his approach.
    Mr. John Denham: I want to make an observation on the amendments and to put them in the context of debates in and outside the House on the development of the criminal justice system. It is striking how often we are told that we face an unstoppable rise in crime, with criminal gangsters dominating the country and our communities and acting with impunity. Yet whenever there is an attempt in legislation to focus on the shortcomings of a part of the criminal justice system, we almost always end up in a debate like this one, which suggests that not much is wrong with it and little needs to be fixed.
    Buck-passing is common when it comes to the failings of the criminal justice system. by which I mean the failure to deliver a system in which the public have confidence that those who are guilty will be caught,

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    convicted and dealt with appropriately, and those who are innocent will go free. The police often blame the Crown Prosecution Service and the courts; the courts often blame the police and the CPS; and the CPS often feels like the meat in the sandwich between the two.
    Throughout the criminal justice system, there is an unwillingness to recognise that there are flaws in each part of the system that have to be dealt with proportionately and appropriately. The Government are not claiming that everything that is wrong in the criminal justice system lies within the courts, but that, as part of the overall reform of the system, appropriate adjustments need to be made to the way in which the courts operate.
    Mr. Gamier: There is a problem with the line that the right hon. Gentleman is taking. Nobody suggests that the entire criminal justice system is perfect; plenty of it could do with reform. However, if parts A, B and C need reform, the answer is to amend them, not to reform parts G, H and J. Yet the Government are lumping together in the jury system all their prejudices and anxieties about the failure to produce enough convictions when there may be other matters that require consideration.
    Mr. Denham: I am tempted to say, "I rest my case." The hon. and learned Gentleman has made precisely the sort of intervention about which I complain. People in all branches of the criminal justice system say, "It's not my bit that causes the problem." However, there are problems in all parts of the system. Police performance is not as good as it should be; the CPS does not always get it right; and parts of our court procedure are wrong. We need to tackle each part of the system. It is too easy for the police to say that the CPS and the courts are the problem, and that they are let down by them. We have all had that conversation with some part of the police service. It is also not right to claim that the courts are fine and that everything goes wrong in the process that leads up to court proceedings.
    Mrs. Dunwoody: Does my right hon. Friend accept that those of us who are uneasy about the changes are motivated not by any worry about lawyers' views but by something more fundamental? If one changes in law a right that has existed for a long time for men and women in this country, one has to be certain that the change is not only justifiable but needed, and that it cannot be achieved in any other way. If I am worried about the amendments, I emphasise that it is precisely for those reasons.
    Mr. Denham: I accept that hon. Members might be worried about the changes for those reasons. However, in the past, I have had some opportunity to examine the criminal justice system and I am sufficiently convinced that there are enough problems, especially intimidation
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    of juries, to warrant changes in the limited cases that will, I hope, result from the Bill. Every hon. Member must make that judgment.
    Mr. John Burnett: rose—
    David Winnick: rose—
    Mr. Denham: I shall give way first to the hon. Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Burnett) and then to my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Burnett: The right hon. Gentleman enjoys considerable respect in the House. Will he be specific about his criticisms relating to the three matters that are under discussion—lengthy trials, defendants' rights to opt for jury trial and jury tampering?
    Mr. Denham: I did not intend to speak about those three points at great length. Intimidating juries and jury nobbling or tampering causes me the greatest anxiety because of the impact on the public's confidence in the criminal justice system in communities where those who are involved in organised crime believe that they are invulnerable to the law and where that belief is shared by others who live there. We all know that such communities exist. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has set out concerns about jurors in complex fraud cases, and the case, which seems to me arguable, for allowing individuals to choose mode of trial. My greatest personal concern is the danger of intimidation.
    Mr. Llwyd: rose—
    Mr. Denham: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I promised to give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (David Winnick).
    David Winnick: I ask, in the friendliest possible way, what my right hon. Friend would say if we were the Opposition and a Conservative Government were making such proposals. I listened carefully to Opposition speeches, and I fear that a future Conservative Government, however distant that prospect may be, could build on these proposals, and that we, as the Opposition, would be all the more determined to oppose them. That is an irony of the proposals.
    Mr. Denham: I am pleased that my hon. Friend is a fellow member of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, partly because we share an interest in strengthening the House's ability to scrutinise legislation properly on the basis of the facts rather than having everything automatically polarised on party political lines. He may be right that some of us would in the past have reacted to the proposals purely on an oppositionalist, party political basis. I believe, however, that we should consider these matters on the strength of the arguments, and that the case should not be taken forward on the basis of the slippery slope argument, or of the argument that the other party might do something different. I shall take one more intervention, then I must finish; other hon. Members wish to speak.
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    Mr. Liwyd: As an ex-Home Office Minister, the right hon. Gentleman will know that the Home Office collects statistics on everything. Why are there no reliable statistics on jury nobbling?
    Mr. Denham: Despite the hon. Gentleman's contention, such statistics are obviously not collected by the Home Office. However, I was convinced of the extent of problems in specific areas of the country involving jury nobbling and—a separate issue—tampering with witnesses.
    Mr. Geoffrey Robinson: I would be very grateful if my right hon. Friend would give way.
    Mr. Denham: I will take one last intervention.
    Mr. Robinson: My right hon. Friend has rightly identified this as a crucial area, and one that is important to him. Surely, however, the system cannot be brought into disrepute because of a problem of intimidation. The problem that needs to be tackled is the intimidation. The system, which is so good, is threatened by that. Surely he must see that he is putting the cart before the horse, and that we should tackle the underlying cause of the problem. The threat to a jury cannot be accepted, and we have to deal with that.
    Mr. Denham: I agree that every effort must be made to protect a jury from intimidation, but my hon. Friend puts forward another example of the argument that says, "If only we did something else, we would not have to tackle this problem." I believe that changes are needed throughout the criminal justice system. Now, having taken more interventions than I ever did when I was a Minister, I shall sit down.
    Simon Hughes: This is a really important debate, and we are not going to have enough time for it today, so I shall try to describe briefly why the Liberal Democrats seek to uphold what the House of Lords did in relation to clauses 41, 42, 43 and 45, albeit for different reasons, but while following the same basic principle. I want to reinforce a point that has been raised on both sides of the House, including by the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich ( Mrs. Dunwoody). I would say to the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) that we are talking about an element of the criminal justice system that commands great respect and has been seen to do a very good job for 800 years. We are talking about a mini-democracy, a mini-Parliament. The fact that the public come into the criminal justice system as lay magistrates and jurors from all walks of life means that their decisions about guilt and innocence are taken far more representatively than they would ever be by a single judge. That is the fundamental principle.
    As the hon. Member for Coventry, North-West (Mr. Robinson) intimated, a second principle is that, while we should of course look at the criminal justice process and at whether the courts do their job properly, there is no significant evidence that the element of the system that fails most—or even comes close to doing so—is trial
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    by jury. In fact, the parts of the system involving catching and deterring criminals, bringing them to court and ensuring that the trial starts all have flaws, as does the prison system, which does not rehabilitate properly. The part that stands up to the greatest test in terms of its success is the jury trial system. There is no suggestion that lots of guilty people are always getting off—that is not a criticism that is being made. There is also no suggestion in any part of the country that women, men, old people, young people, black people, Asian people or white people think that the system does not work for them; they all have confidence in it, more than in any other part of the criminal justice system. That is the strongest reason for not changing it unless there is overwhelming evidence to suggest that, for a particular reason, we should do so.
    Having made the general proposition, I appreciate that there are four different proposals before us that we have to consider separately. First, should we allow people the right to choose to do without juries? Secondly, should we do away with juries in long and complex fraud cases? Thirdly, should a person be deprived of the right to a jury trial halfway through a case in which there has been jury tampering, or, fourthly, in a prospective case, where there is a prospect of jury tampering? I am not naive about the fact that there are different cases, and we must examine each of them on its merits.
    Mr. Grieve: We know, do we not—the hon. Gentleman might agree—the statistic that upwards of 90 per cent. of all recorded crime is never prosecuted in any court of law? If he is looking for a solution to the problems of crime and criminality, that is the first aspect to which we need to address our attention.
    Simon Hughes: I agree absolutely. Most cases that go to the magistrates court result in a guilty plea, and a conviction is therefore secured.
    May I deal with a second set of paradoxes about the Government's position that I find confusing? I do not blame the Home Secretary for the first of them. In the first term of the Labour Government, there were proposals, as he has referred to them, to restrict people's right to choose jury trial. They were put forward twice and defeated twice. Now we are being presented with the tempting proposition that we should allow people to choose to do away with jury trial. Although that is superficially appealing, may I put one argument as to why it would be a dangerous road to go down?
    The argument was most effectively put by the hon. and learned Member for Redcar (Vera Baird)—I pay tribute to her—when she said, "Take a white defendant on a racial attack charge. Would he not find it a better prospect to appear before a white judge than a mixed jury? Take a male defendant on a sexual assault charge. Would he not perhaps choose to appear before a male judge rather than a mixed male and female jury?" Juries do not have reputations—they cannot, by definition—but judges do. If we go down this road, the choice of whether to elect for a judge will often be made by someone saying, "I'm going for the judge because they are thought to be soft and lenient." Those things cannot be predicted in a jury. Juries are much more uncertain.

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    They do not have a reputation, and they have none of the disadvantages of a single judge who comes to every case with a reputation.
    Mr. Hogg: The hon. Gentleman has given examples of individuals who might wish to be tried before a judge rather than by a jury, but classes of case are also relevant here. For example, one can imagine that when railway crashes are dealt with under health and safety legislation, the defendants—directors of a large company—might prefer to be tried by a judge alone, not by a jury. Is that in the public interest?
    Simon Hughes: That is one of the strongest arguments against giving serious fraud cases to the judge alone. It would look much more often as though the white-collar defendant was getting the white-collar judge—the single judge—whereas the blue-collar defendant, who represents the much more common non-fraud case defendant, would get the jury. These are really important matters.
    I get confused about another thing. In the Bill, the Home Secretary is saying, "Trust the judges," but I have
    heard him say—or I and a lot of other people think that
    we have heard him say in other cases—that we should
    not give such great trust to judges. If there is a choice, although I trust them both, I believe that juries receive more trust from the public than judges do. Juries are not paid by the state. Even though they are independent, they are not seen to be part of the establishment. They are real people doing a voluntary service as part of their civic duty, and they do it very honourably.
    Furthermore, the Government appear to be a bit confused because later in the Bill, in relation to previous bad character, they say, "Trust the jury. Put the evidence before them, and they can decide." We say in this context, "Put the evidence before the jury—they are well equipped to decide." I also wonder whether we are considering these proposals because juries are more unpredictable than judges and more out of the Government's control.
    Mr. Blunkett: The hon. Gentleman is moving on to pastures new, but is he seriously suggesting that any Government, not just this Government, or any Executive, not just this Cabinet, control judges and their decision making in court?
    Simon Hughes: Of course not, which is why I have never taken the view that the Home Secretary appears sometimes to have taken, which is that the judges should not be allowed to get on with their job and be properly independent. I have always taken the view that they should be allowed to do that. The great thing about juries is that they are far less predictable and manageable because they are far more independent. They are 12 people who have come together to form a collective view. That is bound to be more persuasive than any other method of deciding right and wrong, and guilt and innocence.
    Mr. Marshall-Andrews: Would it be fair to add to that list of advantages of the jury system the incorruptibility of the system? Talk of nobbling, threatening or
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    corrupting juries reveals one of the strengths of the system, not a weakness in it. It is almost impossible to subvert a jury of 12: in a lifetime of crime, I have never known it to happen. The placing of one judge in the firing line, who could be either bribed or nobbled, is surely much greater cause for concern.
    Simon Hughes: I agree—although I suspect that the hon. and learned Gentleman meant "in a lifetime of dealing with crime".
    If something works, we should not try to replace it unless there is an overwhelming argument for doing so. Secondly, the public are involved to an extent that we reduce at our peril. Thirdly, a jury contains people who do not arrive with a reputation and can therefore be entirely impartial. Fourthly, the jury system requires cases to be outlined in language that the public understand. There is no elite performance by lawyers for lawyers; this is publicly accessible justice, and we really ought to defend it.
    Mr. Llwyd: May I respectfully add to the hon. Gentleman's list the fact that it is always preferable to have 12 judges of fact, rather than one?
    Simon Hughes: That must be true, and any dogged and obstreperous individual can be dealt with now that majority verdicts are permitted, and frequently used.
    In the other place, my noble Friend Lord Dholakia pointed out that minority communities in particular—black and Asian communities—have great confidence in the jury system. They believe, as all the research and other evidence shows, that they will be given a much fairer trial by a mixed-race jury than by a single, normally white, judge. The Commission for Racial Equality has advanced strong arguments in favour of the jury system, on the grounds that it is race-proof and much more equitable.
    Many others argued points of principle in the House of Lords. Probably the strongest speech was made by a Government supporter, although she did not support the Government in this instance. On 15 July, Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws presented the central arguments in favour of jury trial.
    Let me deal with the four propositions in turn. The first I have already dealt with: although, superficially, the amendment constitutes an appeal for people to be allowed the right to opt out of jury trial, it is likely to give the impression of creating a two-tier system, and a system in which people tend to use their own judge. A case in which a terrible sex offender, for instance, ought to be tried by his or her—normally his—peers might turn out to be the case that cannot be considered by a jury.
    Secondly, there is the issue of serious fraud cases and very lengthy cases. I accept that the Home Secretary has made a concession in limiting his proposals to fraud cases, but my colleagues and I have not remained static. We have suggested an arrangement that would allow juries to be representative, but to be selected in a way that would make it practical to ensure that their members could remain on duty for a year, or for nine or six months. The Government rejected our suggestion.
    Our view is simple. We do not think there should be a two-tier justice system, in which what happens depends on the nature of the charge and the offence being

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    considered by the court. The fact that a case is long and complex in terms of paperwork need not mean that the issue is difficult for a jury to deal with. As the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) reminded us, all the evidence suggests that there are much higher conviction rates in such cases than in the other cases with which courts must deal.
    Finally, there is the question of jury tampering. I understand the arguments, and the most appealing are those in favour of a system allowing the courts, if necessary, to take steps to deal with such tampering. The hon. and learned Member for Medway (Mr. Marshall-Andrews) said that we must not allow that part of the system to be put at risk. The hon. Member for Coventry, North-West referred to all the other measures that must be taken to show that we will not allow people to interfere with the criminal justice system, and that those who do so will experience the most extreme punishment.
    My colleagues and I prefer to take the road embarked on by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield and his hon. Friends. We are willing to work with the Government to ensure that we do not have half a trial with a jury and half a trial without, as that is a ludicrous proposition. We are also, in serious cases of jury tampering, in which the defendant could not have a fair trial in any circumstances, willing to look at alternatives, but only if there is a high threshold. However, we are not considering that this afternoon. If we have time in the following days and weeks, we may reach an agreement. We are willing in the next 48 hours to work to come to an agreement, but we are not willing to compromise on the principle, against a guillotine and a deadline in the House that are not of our making.
    4 pm
    Mr. Hogg: I agree with much of what the hon. Gentleman has said, but on jury tampering, if there is a retrial or further trial after the discharge of the jury, does he agree that the second judge—a judge of fact in a judge-only trial must be different from the judge in
    the first trial, because otherwise there is a danger that the judge in the second trial will have heard evidence not adduced in that trial.
    Simon Hughes: I agree.
    In a matter of hours, the President of the United States will make a state visit to this country. The constitutional settlement of the United States of America includes many good things. In the Declaration of Independence, one of the objections to the King concerned the fact that he was
    "depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury".
    That concern resulted in the right to trial by jury being protected in article 111.2 of the United States constitution. I am not aware of any circumstances in any of the jurisdictions in the United States in which defendants in serious cases can be denied the opportunity to trial by jury—[Interruption.] The Home Secretary has rightly mentioned Guantanamo Bay, and he knows that Members on both sides of the House believe strongly that it is a no-go area, which is entirely unacceptable. There is also the issue of military tribunals, but on the US mainland, the jurisdictions have upheld the right to jury trial.
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    The right to jury trial is precious, and it works well. Parliament will not give up without a fight the right for it to be used as the usual and regular course of action for most defendants. If we have to fight the Government, we will.
    Vera Baird: Many speeches have been made during the passage of the Bill about the importance of jury trial as a principle. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has always said that he values jury trial in principle. It is hugely important in a democracy that the fresh air of public scrutiny is applied to decisions about the guilt or innocence of our fellow citizens.
    My concern is primarily about clause 41, which may result in the end of jury trial as we know it. If my right hon. Friend does value that precious right, as he says, will he think further about that provision, which may undermine it? It could also be undermined by people who do not value it as he does or by sheer force of circumstance if clause 41 is brought into force. The new right for the defendant to opt for trial either by jury or by judge will inevitably be abused. For instance, in the north-east, it is well known that some judges are liberal and soft and that others are harsh. I have said so many times before, but if anybody asked me whether I would be tried by judge alone, I would say, "Which judge?" There will be forum shopping by defendants of the worst imaginable kind. Local witnesses waiting to go to court to give evidence will know that a defendant has opted at the last minute for judge X because he is soft, or has opted for a jury trial because judge Y, who is on the list of j udges, is hard. That will rightly scandalise the public, victims and witnesses.
    The Bill includes a provision specifying that there must be early exercise of the option, but it is unenforceable. Common sense dictates that if someone says that they want a jury trial, but the case comes to court and he decides that he is fine without a jury trial, nobody is going to compel him to go through the lengthier, more complicated and expensive process of empanelling a jury just because he asked for that at an earlier stage.
    Mr. Blunkett: I am very sympathetic to my hon. and learned Friend. I understand from the previous contribution that she rightly made in the House, how strongly she feels. However, is it her proposition now that that is not possible when people are faced with a magistrates court or being able to opt for jury trial—that at that point that option is fixed and is the one that prevails, whether they want to go back to a magistrates court or not?
    Vera Baird: It is very difficult to envisage a situation such as the one that I set out. The defendant may say, "All right, six months ago, I thought I needed a jury to try my case. I now realise that the judges here are all absolutely fine and fair and I do not need to put you through the extra expense, the extra complexity and a lengthier trial, so I do not want a jury trial." Is it seriously suggested that the judge should force him against his will to have a jury trial, when it will take a good deal longer and cost a good deal more? Of course not. The judge will say, "All right, if no one wants a jury trial here, no one need have one here."

    673
    In practice, therefore, the right will be capable of being exercised at the end. Of course, if it is going to be exercised that way at the end, it is going to be exercised the other way at the end, if it is wanted, as well. There will be no possibility of excluding forum shopping. It is an appalling prospect and will bring the criminal justice system into disrepute. The jury system will be a tool to be used by clever criminals. Very soon, not only the Home Secretary but I and many others will say, "This has to stop. The system cannot be abused like that."
    What will happen then? Will we go back to everyone having a compulsory jury trial? Of course not. By then, it will be clear that trial by judge alone can be quicker, slicker, more efficient and cheaper, so why wipe out the right to trial by judge alone? What will happen is that the right to decide whether a trial is by judge alone or by jury will be moved to the judge, and that will be a nail in the coffin of the right to jury trial. It will be at the judge's discretion.
    Of course, the point I have just made—that non-jury trial is bound to be cheaper, quicker and more efficient than jury trial—will in itself be a nail in the coffin of jury trial. A robbery trial in court one at the Old Bailey will be carried out in two weeks by a judge, whereas, a robbery trial involving a very similar case in court two at the Old Bailey will be carried out over six weeks by a jury. Perhaps the man who had the two-week jury trial will be acquitted. The argument will be obvious. Why on earth should we allow defendants to have six weeks' worth of legal aid for these dreadful lawyers when they could perfectly fairly be tried in two weeks by a judge? Again, that argument will start to militate against jury trial.
    Mr. Gamier: May I reinforce the hon. and learned Lady's point about judicial pressure in due course to encourage judge-alone criminal trials? In the civil field in which I work, defamation, there is still a right to jury trial, but the judge is given discretion to take it out of the hands of the jury and to try it himself, if he thinks—the wording almost reflects the wording in the Bill—that the case is going to be very complicated or take too long. However, increasingly, judges will begin proceedings by saying, "Do you not think that it would be better for all concerned if we just dispensed with the jury?" That is before we have even got into deciding whether it will be a complicated trial. The pressure will be on the parties to the trial to accede to the judicial request, because the judge will be under pressure from the management—that is to say, the Lord Chancellor's Department—to
    keep the through-put of trials going at a speedy rate. The Treasury pressure on the judge will be to keep the process going as quickly as possible. That is why the hon. and learned Lady is right to highlight that point.
    Vera Baird: I am grateful for that intervention. If somebody is acquitted in a couple of weeks, instead of being convicted after spending six weeks in front of a jury, people will start to say, "What's good enough for defendant X—being tried and acquitted by a judge—must be good enough for defendant Y. Why should we allow them that option?" As has just been said, judges are under pressure in terms of turnover and disposal
    674
    rates. They are almost certain to think that they can try cases just as well as a jury, so why should they not exercise their right to decide that they will do so?
    And what about the little cases—those that are just a
    few pounds' worth—that find their way to the Crown court, in which the defendant wants to opt for trial by
    jury? They will—[Interruption.] Does my right hon.
    Friend the Home Secretary want to intervene, or just get in the way? [Interruption.] He is muttering into his beard—he does so, I am sure, with great charm—about district judges already trying without juries, but there is a principle in this country that serious cases go before juries. Although I am talking about the less serious cases that a judge will consider as not meriting jury trial, it is obvious that they constitute the bottom end of the serious stuff that the Crown court deals with. There will be pressure for smaller cases at the bottom end of the Crown court's tariff to be tried by judge alone, and for the option of trial by jury not to exist.
    I foresee that, for those two reasons, we shall soon have the forum shopping and abuse that none of us wants, and the obvious cheapness, slickness and efficiency of trial by judge alone. The defendant's right to opt for trial by judge alone will go and will be passed into the hands of the judge, which will he the end of any kind of right to trial by jury. Here, I am expressing a very real fear. I do not intend that my comments should have a querulous sound; rather, they are expressing a serious concern. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary says that he, too, is concerned about safeguarding the principle of jury trial, but if he wants to do so, he cannot allow it to become optional. Once it becomes optional, the reasons why the option is exercised will bring the principle into disrepute. That is the slippery slope on which we are starting today with clause 41.
    Mr. David Kidney: It is fanciful for my hon. and learned Friend to suggest that if some accused can choose a judge-only trial, all of them will. So that we can see whose opinion is right, I should point out that Lord Justice Auld's report commented on the widespread use in other common-law jurisdictions of what he called the "jury waiver"—in other words, the giving up of the right to trial by jury. Is it not true that the jury trial is still strong in all those jurisdictions?
    Vera Baird: I do not seem to have made myself clear—at least to my hon. Friend. In no way did I say that if we give everybody the right to non-jury trial, all will opt for it. I said that the way in which that option is exercised will be subject to criticism, and people will say, "If they're going to exercise the right to jury trial in that way, we will take it away from them and let somebody sensible decide what mode of trial should follow." If my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is concerned about jury trial, I ask him to consider that that process will inevitably follow from what happens today. I seriously invite him to consider that that is not what he wants. Please reconsider clause 41.
    Mr. Hogg: I have just two minutes, so I shall be extraordinarily brief. I want to begin by telling the Home Secretary something that is not palatable to many Members of this House: that we should listen with respect to what is being said in the other place about part 7. The plain truth is that we in this House will be having

    675
    whipped votes on this issue, and that what we are hearing today is the Home Office's view. What we heard in the other place was a largely free and unconstrained debate, with views being expressed by people who have a great deal of knowledge on the subject—we should therefore listen with respect to what they say.>
    4.15 pm
    Like the hon. and learned Member for Redcar (Vera Baird), I start from the presumption that jury trials are desirable: they have, as my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) said, very wide public acceptability, and they tend to give a more just result—partly because jurors are better judges of fact than are judges, many of whom have spent too long in the criminal courts hearing too many lies.
    On clause 41, I absolutely agree with the hon. and learned Member for Redcar that we are creating a presumption against jury trials. That will be the thin end of the wedge, and ultimately they will be discontinued on that basis alone. As the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) said, many individuals will try to get a judge-only trial because they think that it suits them. Moreover, certain classes of trial will come before judges only, and that will displease the public at large.
    As regards long and complex trials—this relates to clause 42—the single issue is normally one of dishonesty—
    It being one hour and forty-five minutes after the commencement of proceedings on Lords amendments, MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].
    The House divided: Ayes 327, Noes 221.

    Division No. 371]

    [4:16 pm

    AYES

    Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

    Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

    Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

    Bradshaw, Ben

    Alexander, Douglas

    Brennan, Kevin

    Allen, Graham

    Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E

    Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

    Wallsend)

    Anderson, Janet (Rossendale &

    Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

    Darwen)

    Browne, Desmond

    Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

    Bryant, Chris

    Atherton, Ms Candy

    Buck, Ms Karen

    Austin, John

    Burden, Richard

    Bailey, Adrian

    Burgon, Colin

    Banks, Tony

    Burnham, Andy

    Barron, rh Kevin

    Byers, rh Stephen

    Bayley, Hugh

    Cairns, David

    Beard, Nigel

    Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

    Beckett, rh Margaret

    Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

    Begg, Miss Anne

    Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

    Bell, Stuart

    Caplin, Ivor

    Benn, rh Hilary

    Casale, Roger

    Benton, Joe (Bootle)

    Caton, Martin

    Berry, Roger

    Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

    Best, Harold

    Challen, Colin

    Betts, Clive

    Chapman, Ben (WirralS)

    Blackman, Liz

    Chaytor, David

    Blears, Ms Hazel

    Clapham, Michael

    Blizzard, Bob

    Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

    Blunkett, rh David

    Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh

    Boateng, rh Paul

    Pentlands)

    Borrow, David

    Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

    Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

    Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

    676

    Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge &

    Hepburn, Stephen

    Chryston)

    Heppell, John

    Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

    Hermon, Lady

    Clelland, David

    Hesford, Stephen

    Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

    Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia

    Coaker, Vernon

    Heyes, David

    Coffey, Ms Ann

    Hill, Keith (Streatham)

    Coleman, Iain

    Hodge, Margaret

    Colman, Tony

    Hoon, rh Geoffrey

    Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)

    Hope, Phil (Corby)

    Cooper, Yvette

    Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

    Cranston, Ross

    Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

    Crausby, David

    Cruddas, Jon

    Howells, Dr. Kim

    Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

    Hoyle, Lindsay

    Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

    Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)

    Cummings, John

    Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)

    Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

    Humble, Mrs Joan

    Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

    Hutton, rh John

    Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

    Ingram, rh Adam

    Darling, rh Alistair

    Irranca-Davies, Huw

    Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

    Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

    David, Wayne

    Jamieson, David

    Davidson, Ian

    Jenkins, Brian

    Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

    Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

    Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

    Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

    Dean, Mrs Janet

    Denham, rh John

    Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

    Dismore, Andrew

    Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

    Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

    Jones, Martyn (ClwydS)

    Dobson, rh Frank

    Jowell, rh Tessa

    Donohoe, Brian H.

    Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

    Doran, Frank

    Kaufman, rh Gerald

    Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

    Keeble, Ms Sally

    Drew, David (Stroud)

    Keen, Alan (Feltham)

    Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

    Keen, Ann (Brentford)

    Eagle, Maria (L'poolGarston)

    Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

    Edwards, Huw

    Kemp, Fraser

    Efford, Clive

    Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

    Ellman, Mrs Louise

    Khabra, Piara S.

    Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

    Kidney, David

    Farrelly, Paul

    King, Andy (Rugby)

    Fitzpatrick, Jim

    King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

    Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

    Flint, Caroline

    Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

    Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

    Kumar, Dr. Ashok

    Follett, Barbara

    Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

    Foster, rh Derek

    Lammy, David

    Foster, Michael (Worcester)

    Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

    Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

    Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

    Lazarowicz, Mark

    Francis, Dr. Hywel

    Lepper, David

    Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)

    Leslie, Christopher

    Gardiner, Barry

    Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

    George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

    Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

    Gilroy, Linda

    Liddell, rh Mrs Helen

    Godsiff, Roger

    Linton, Martin

    Goggins, Paul

    Love, Andrew

    Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

    Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

    Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

    Luke, lain (Dundee E)

    Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

    Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

    Grogan, John

    McAvoy, Thomas

    Hain, rh Peter

    McCabe, Stephen

    Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

    McCartney, rh Ian

    Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

    McDonagh, Siobhain

    Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

    MacDonald, Calum

    Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

    MacDougall, John

    Hanson, David

    McFall, John

    Harman, rh Ms Harriet

    McGuire, Mrs Anne

    Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

    McIsaac, Shona

    Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)

    McKechin, Ann

    McKenna, Rosemary

    Healey, John

    Mackinlay, Andrew

    Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

    McNulty, Tony

    Hendrick, Mark

    Mactaggart, Fiona

    677

    McWilliam, John

    Shaw, Jonathan

    Mahmood, Khalid

    Sheerman, Barry

    Mallaber, Judy

    Sheridan, Jim

    Mandelson, rh Peter

    Shipley, Ms Debra

    Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

    Singh, Marsha

    Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

    Smith, Angela (Basildon)

    Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

    Smith, rh Chris (Islington S &Finsbury)

    Martlew, Eric

    Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

    Merron, Gillian

    Smith, John (Glamorgan)

    Michael, rh Alun

    Soley, Clive

    Milburn, rh Alan

    Southworth, Helen

    Miliband, David

    Spellar, rh John

    Miller, Andrew

    Squire, Rachel

    Moffatt, Laura

    Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

    Mole, Chris

    Steinberg, Gerry

    Moran, Margaret

    Stevenson, George

    Morgan, Julie

    Stewart, David (Inverness E &

    Morley, Elliot

    Lochaber)

    Morris, rh Estelle

    Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

    Mountford, Kali

    Stinchcombe, Paul

    Mudie, George

    Stoate, Dr. Howard

    Mullin, Chris

    Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

    Munn, Ms Meg

    Straw, rh Jack

    Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

    Stringer, Graham

    Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

    Stuart, Ms Gisela

    Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)

    Sutcliffe, Gerry

    Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

    Tami, Mark (Alyn)

    O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

    Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

    Olner, Bill

    Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

    Organ, Diana

    Taylor, David (NW Leics)

    Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

    Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

    Owen, Albert

    Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

    Palmer, Dr. Nick

    Timms, Stephen

    Pearson, Ian

    Tipping, Paddy

    Perham, Linda

    Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

    Pickthall, Colin

    Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

    Pike, Peter (Burnley)

    Trickett, Jon

    Plaskitt, James

    Truswell, Paul

    Pollard, Kerry

    Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

    Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

    Turner, Neil (Wigan)

    Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

    Twigg, Derek (Halton)

    Pound, Stephen

    Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

    Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

    Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

    Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)

    Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

    Walley, Ms Joan

    Primarolo, rh Dawn

    Ward, Claire

    Prosser, Gwyn

    Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

    Purchase, Ken

    Watts, David

    Purnell, James

    White, Brian

    Quin, rh Joyce

    Whitehead, Dr. Alan

    Quinn, Lawrie

    Wicks, Malcolm

    Rammell, Bill

    Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

    Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

    Williams, Betty (Conwy)

    Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N &

    Wills, Michael

    Bellshill)

    Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

    Robertson, John (Glasgow

    Anniesland)

    Woodward, Shaun

    Roche, Mrs Barbara

    Woolas, Phil

    Rooney, Terry

    Worthington, Tony

    Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

    Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)

    Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

    Ruane, Chris

    Wright, Anthony D. (Gt

    Ruddock, Joan

    Yarmouth)

    Russell, Ms Christine (City of

    Wright, David (Telford)

    Chester)

    Wright, Tony (Cannock)

    Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

    Salter, Martin

    Tellers for the Ayes:

    Sarwar, Mohammad

    Mr. Nick Ainger and

    Savidge, Malcolm

    Charlotte Atkins

    NOES

    Abbott, Ms Diane

    Ancram, rh Michael

    Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

    Arbuthnot, rh James

    Allan, Richard

    Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

    Amess, David

    Bacon, Richard

    678

    Baker, Norman

    Greenway, John

    Barker, Gregory

    Grieve, Dominic

    Barnes, Harry

    Gummer, rh John

    Baron, John (Billericay)

    Hague, rh William

    Barrett, John

    Hammond, Philip

    Beggs, Roy (EAntrim)

    Harvey, Nick

    Beith, rh A. J.

    Hawkins, Nick

    Bellingham, Henry

    Hayes, John (S Holland)

    Bennett, Andrew

    Heald, Oliver

    Blunt, Crispin

    Heath, David

    Boswell, Tim

    Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

    Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

    Hendry, Charles

    Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW

    Hoban, Mark (Fareham)

    Surrey)

    Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

    Brady, Graham

    Hogg, rh Douglas

    Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

    Holmes, Paul

    Brazier, Julian

    Hopkins, Kelvin

    Breed, Colin

    Horam, John (Orpington)

    Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

    Howard, rh Michael

    Bruce, Malcolm

    Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

    Burnett, John

    Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

    Burns, Simon

    Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

    Burt, Alistair

    Jack, rh Michael

    Butterfill, John

    Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

    Cable, Dr. Vincent

    Calton, Mrs Patsy

    Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

    Cameron, David

    Jenkin, Bernard

    Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)

    Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

    Carmichael, Alistair

    Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

    Cash, William

    Keetch, Paul

    Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

    Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye &Inverness)

    Chidgey, David

    Key, Robert (Salisbury)

    Chope, Christopher

    Kirkbride, Miss Julie

    Clappison, James

    Kirkwood, Sir Archy

    Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

    Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

    Collins, Tim

    Laing, Mrs Eleanor

    Connarty, Michael

    Lait, Mrs Jacqui

    Corbyn, Jeremy

    Lamb, Norman

    Cormack, Sir Patrick

    Lansley, Andrew

    Cotter, Brian

    Laws, David (Yeovil)

    Curry, rh David

    Letwin, rh Oliver

    Davey, Edward (Kingston)

    Liddell-Grainger, Ian

    Davies, rh Denzil (LIanelli)

    Lidington, David

    Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)

    Lilley, rh Peter

    Llwyd, Elfyn

    Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

    Loughton, Tim

    Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

    Dawson, Hilton

    McDonnell, John

    Djanogly, Jonathan

    McIntosh, Miss Anne

    Doughty, Sue

    Mackay, rh Andrew

    Duncan, Peter (Galloway)

    Maclean, rh David

    Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

    McLoughlin, Patrick

    Evans, Nigel

    Malins, Humfrey

    Fabricant, Michael

    Maples, John

    Fallon, Michael

    Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury &

    Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminister)

    Atcham)

    Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

    Fisher, Mark

    Marshall-Andrews, Robert

    Flight, Howard

    Mates, Michael

    Flook, Adrian

    Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

    Forth, rh Eric

    May, Mrs Theresa

    Foster, Don (Bath)

    Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

    Fox, Dr. Liam

    Francois, Mark

    Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

    Gale, Roger (N Thanet)

    Moore, Michael

    Garnier, Edward

    Moss, Malcolm

    Gerrard, Neil

    Murrison, Dr. Andrew

    Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

    Norman, Archie

    Gidley, Sandra

    O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

    Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

    ⃖pik, Lembit

    Goodman, Paul

    Osborne, George (Tatton)

    Gray, James (N Wilts)

    Ottaway, Richard

    Grayling, Chris

    Page, Richard

    Green, Damian (Ashford)

    Paice, James

    Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

    Paterson, Owen

    Cooper, Yvette

    Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

    Cranston, Ross

    Howarth, George (Knowsley N &

    Crausby, David

    Sefton E)

    Cruddas, Jon

    Howells, Dr. Kim

    Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

    Hoyle, Lindsay

    Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

    Hughes, Beverley (Stretford &

    Cummings, John

    Urmston)

    Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack

    Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

    (Copeland)

    Humble, Mrs Joan

    Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

    Hutton, rh John

    Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

    Ingram, rh Adam

    Darling, rh Alistair

    Irranca-Davies, Huw

    Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

    Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

    David, Wayne

    Jamieson, David

    Davidson, Ian

    Jenkins, Brian

    Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

    Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

    Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

    Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn

    Dean, Mrs Janet

    Hatfield)

    Denham, rh John

    Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

    Dismore, Andrew

    Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

    Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

    Jones, Martyn (ClwydS)

    Dobson, rh Frank

    Jowell, rh Tessa

    Donohoe, Brian H.

    Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

    Doran, Frank

    Kaufman, rh Gerald

    Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

    Keeble, Ms Sally

    Drew, David (Stroud)

    Keen, Alan (Feltham)

    Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

    Keen, Ann (Brentford)

    Eagle, Maria (L'poolGarston)

    Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

    Edwards, Huw

    Kemp, Fraser

    Efford, Clive

    Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

    Ellman, Mrs Louise

    Khabra, Piara S.

    Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

    Kidney, David

    Farrelly, Paul

    King, Andy (Rugby)

    Fitzpatrick, Jim

    King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green &

    Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

    Bow)

    Flint, Caroline

    Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

    Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

    Kumar, Dr. Ashok

    Follett, Barbara

    Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

    Foster, rh Derek

    Lammy, David

    Foster, Michael (Worcester)

    Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

    Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings

    Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

    & Rye)

    Lazarowicz, Mark

    Francis, Dr. Hywel

    Lepper, David

    Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)

    Leslie, Christopher

    Gardiner, Barry

    Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

    George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

    Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

    Gilroy, Linda

    Liddell, rh Mrs Helen

    Godsiff, Roger

    Linton, Martin

    Goggins, Paul

    Love, Andrew

    Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

    Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

    Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

    Luke, lain (Dundee E)

    Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

    Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

    Grogan, John

    McAvoy, Thomas

    Hain, rh Peter

    McCabe, Stephen

    Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

    McCartney, rh Ian

    Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

    McDonagh, Siobhain

    Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

    MacDonald, Calum

    Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

    MacDougall, John

    Hanson, David

    McFall, John

    Harman, rh Ms Harriet

    McGuire, Mrs Anne

    Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

    McIsaac, Shona

    Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil &

    McKechin, Ann

    Rhymney)

    McKenna, Rosemary

    Healey, John

    Mackinlay, Andrew

    Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

    McNulty, Tony

    Hendrick, Mark

    Mactaggart, Fiona

    679

    Pickles, Eric

    Tapsell, Sir Peter

    Price, Adam (E Carmarthen &

    Taylor, Ian (Esher)

    Dinefwr)

    Taylor, John (Solihull)

    Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

    Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

    Pugh, Dr. John

    Taylor, Sir Teddy

    Randall, John

    Teather, Sarah

    Redwood, rh John

    Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

    Rendel, David

    Thurso, John

    Robathan, Andrew

    Tonge, Dr. Jenny

    Robertson, Hugh (Faversham &

    Tredinnick, David

    M-Kent)

    Trend, Michael

    Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

    Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

    Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry

    Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

    NW)

    Tyrie, Andrew

    Roe, Mrs Marion

    Viggers, Peter

    Rosindell, Andrew

    Walter, Robert

    Ruffley, David

    Wareing, Robert N.

    Russell, Bob (Colchester)

    Waterson, Nigel

    Sanders, Adrian

    Webb, Steve (Northavon)

    Sayeed, Jonathan

    Whittingdale, John

    Sedgemore, Brian

    Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

    Selous, Andrew

    Wiggin, Bill

    Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian

    Wilkinson, John

    Shepherd, Richard

    Willetts, David

    Simmonds, Mark

    Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

    Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

    Williams, Roger (Brecon)

    Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

    Willis, Phil

    Skinner, Dennis

    Wilshire, David

    Smith, Sir Robert (WAb'd'ns & Kincardine)

    Winnick, David

    Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

    Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

    Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)

    Soames, Nicholas

    Spelman, Mrs Caroline

    Wood, Mike (Batley)

    Spicer, Sir Michael

    Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

    Spring, Richard

    Young, rh Sir George

    Stanley, rh Sir John

    Younger-Ross, Richard

    Steen, Anthony

    Streeter, Gary

    Tellers for the Noes:

    Stunell, Andrew

    Angela Watkinson and

    Syms, Robert

    Mr. Alan Ried

    Question accordingly agreed to.
    Lords amendment disagreed to.

  Clause 42

    APPLICATIONS BY PROSECUTION FOR CERTAIN COMPLEX OR LENGTHY TRIALS TO BE CONDUCTED WITHOUT JURY
    Lords amendment: No. 33
    Motion made, and Question put, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.—[Mr. Heppell.]
    The House divided: Ayes 329, Noes 224.

    Division No. 372]

    [4:32 pm

    AYES

    Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

    Barron, rh Kevin

    Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

    Battle, John

    Alexander, Douglas

    Bayley, Hugh

    Allen, Graham

    Beard, Nigel

    Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

    Beckett, rh Margaret

    Anderson, Janet (Rossendale &

    Begg, Miss Anne

    Darwen)

    Bell, Stuart

    Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

    Benn, rh Hilary

    Atherton, Ms Candy

    Benton, Joe (Bootle)

    Austin, John

    Berry, Roger

    Bailey, Adrian

    Betts, Clive

    Banks, Tony

    Blackman, Liz

    680

    Blears, Ms Hazel

    Ellman, Mrs Louise

    Blizzard, Bob

    Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

    Blunkett, rh David

    Farrelly, Paul

    Boateng, rh Paul

    Fitzpatrick, Jim

    Borrow, David

    Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

    Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

    Flint, Caroline

    Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

    Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

    Bradshaw, Ben

    Follett, Barbara

    Brennan, Kevin

    Foster, rh Derek

    Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E

    Foster, Michael (Worcester)

    Wallsend)

    Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings &

    Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

    Rye)

    Browne, Desmond

    Francis, Dr. Hywel

    Bryant, Chris

    Gapes, Mike (IlfordS)

    Buck, Ms Karen

    Gardiner, Barry

    Burden, Richard

    George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

    Burgon, Colin

    Gilroy, Linda

    Burnham, Andy

    Godsiff, Roger

    Byers, rh Stephen

    Goggins, Paul

    Cairns, David

    Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

    Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

    Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

    Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

    Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

    Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

    Grogan, John

    Caplin, Ivor

    Hain, rh Peter

    Casale, Roger

    Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

    Caton, Martin

    Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

    Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

    Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

    Challen, Colin

    Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

    Chapman, Ben (Wirra/S)

    Hanson, David

    Chaytor, David

    Harman, rh Ms Harriet

    Clapham, Michael

    Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

    Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

    Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil &

    Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh

    Rhymney)

    Pentlands)

    Healey, John

    Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

    Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

    Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

    Hendrick, Mark

    Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge &

    Hepburn, Stephen

    Chryston)

    Heppell, John

    Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

    Hermon, Lady

    Clelland, David

    Hesford, Stephen

    Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

    Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia

    Coaker, Vernon

    Heyes, David

    Coffey, Ms Ann

    Hill, Keith (Streatham)

    Coleman, Iain

    Hodge, Margaret

    Colman, Tony

    Hoon, rh Geoffrey

    Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)

    Hope, Phil (Corby)

    Cooper, Yvette

    Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

    Cranston, Ross

    Howarth, George (Knowsley N &

    Crausby, David

    Sefton E)

    Cruddas, Jon

    Howells, Dr. Kim

    Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

    Hoyle, Lindsay

    Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

    Hughes, Beverley (Stretford &

    Cummings, John

    Urmston)

    Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack

    Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

    (Copeland)

    Humble, Mrs Joan

    Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

    Ingram, rh Adam

    Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

    Irranca-Davies, Huw

    Darling, rh Alistair

    Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

    Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

    Jamieson, David

    David, Wayne

    Jenkins, Brian

    Davidson, Ian

    Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

    Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

    Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn

    Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

    Hatfield)

    Dean, Mrs Janet

    Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

    Denham, rh John

    Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

    Dismore, Andrew

    Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

    Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

    Jowell, rh Tessa

    Dobson, rh Frank

    Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

    Donohoe, Brian H.

    Kaufman, rh Gerald

    Doran, Frank

    Keeble, Ms Sally

    Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

    Keen, Alan (Feltham)

    Drew, David (Stroud)

    Keen, Ann (Brentford)

    Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

    Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

    Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

    Kemp, Fraser

    Edwards, Huw

    Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

    Efford, Clive

    Khabra, Piara S.

    681

    Kidney, David

    Pollard, Kerry

    King, Andy (Rugby)

    Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

    King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green &

    Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

    Bow)

    Pound, Stephen

    Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

    Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham

    Kumar, Dr. Ashok

    E)

    Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

    Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

    Lammy, David

    Primarolo, rh Dawn

    Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

    Prosser, Gwyn

    Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

    Purchase, Ken

    Lazarowicz, Mark

    Purnell, James

    Lepper, David

    Quin, rh Joyce

    Leslie, Christopher

    Quinn, Lawrie

    Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

    Rammell, Bill

    Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

    Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

    Lidded, rh Mrs Helen

    Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

    Linton, Martin

    Love, Andrew

    Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

    Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

    Luke, lain (Dundee E)

    Roche, Mrs Barbara

    Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

    Rooney, Terry

    McAvoy, Thomas

    Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

    McCabe, Stephen

    Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

    McCartney, rh Ian

    Ruane, Chris

    McDonagh, Siobhain

    Ruddock, Joan

    MacDonald, Calum

    Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

    MacDougall, John

    McFall, John

    Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

    McGuire, Mrs Anne

    Salter, Martin

    McIsaac, Shona

    Sarwar, Mohammad

    McKechin, Ann

    Savidge, Malcolm

    McKenna, Rosemary

    Sawford, Phil

    Mackinlay, Andrew

    Shaw, Jonathan

    McNulty, Tony

    Sheerman, Barry

    MacShane, Denis

    Sheridan, Jim

    Mactaggart, Fiona

    Shipley, Ms Debra

    McWilliam, John

    Singh, Marsha

    Mahmood, Khalid

    Smith, Angela (Basildon)

    Mallaber, Judy

    Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)

    Mandelson, rh Peter

    Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

    Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

    Marsden, Gordon (BlackpoolS)

    Smith, John (Glamorgan)

    Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

    Soley, Clive

    South worth, Helen

    Martlew, Eric

    Spellar, rh John

    Meacher, rh Michael

    Squire, Rachel

    Merron, Gillian

    Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

    Michael, rh Alun

    Steinberg, Gerry

    Milburn, rh Alan

    Stevenson, George

    Miliband, David

    Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)

    Miller, Andrew

    Moffatt, Laura

    Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

    Mole, Chris

    Stinchcombe, Paul

    Moran, Margaret

    Stoate, Dr. Howard

    Morgan, Julie

    Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

    Morley, Elliot

    Straw, rh Jack

    Morris, rh Estelle

    Stringer, Graham

    Mountford, Kali

    Stuart, Ms Gisela

    Mudie, George

    Sutcliffe, Gerry

    Mullin, Chris

    Tami, Mark (Alyn)

    Munn, Ms Meg

    Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

    Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

    Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

    Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

    Taylor, David (NWLeics)

    Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)

    Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

    Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

    Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

    O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

    Timms, Stephen

    Olner, Bill

    Tipping, Paddy

    Organ, Diana

    Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

    Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

    Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

    Owen, Albert

    Trickett, Jon

    Palmer, Dr. Nick

    Truswell, Paul

    Pearson, Ian

    Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

    Perham, Linda

    Turner, Neil (Wigan)

    Pickthall, Colin

    Twigg, Derek (Halton)

    Pike, Peter (Burnley)

    Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

    Plaskitt, James

    Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

    682

    Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)

    Woodward, Shaun

    Walley, Ms Joan

    Woolas, Phil

    Ward, Claire

    Worthington, Tony

    Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

    Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)

    Watts, David

    White, Brian

    Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

    Whitehead, Dr. Alan

    Wicks, Malcolm

    Wright, David (Telford)

    Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

    Wright, Tony (Cannock)

    Williams, Betty (Conwy)

    Wills, Michael

    Tellers for the Ayes: Mr. Nick Ainger and Charlotte Atkins

    Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

    NOES

    NOES

    Abbott, Ms Diane

    Duncan, Peter (Galloway)

    Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

    Duncan Smith, rh Iain

    Allan, Richard

    Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

    Amess, David

    Evans, Nigel

    Ancram, rh Michael

    Fabricant, Michael

    Arbuthnot, rh James

    Fallon, Michael

    Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

    Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)

    Bacon, Richard

    Baker, Norman

    Fisher, Mark

    Barker, Gregory

    Flight, Howard

    Barnes, Harry

    Flook, Adrian

    Baron, John (Billericay)

    Forth, rh Eric

    Barrett, John

    Foster, Don (Bath)

    Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)

    Fox, Dr. Liam

    Berth, rh A. J.

    Francois, Mark

    Bellingham, Henry

    Gale, Roger (TV Thanet)

    Bennett, Andrew

    Garnier, Edward

    Blunt, Crispin

    Gerrard, Neil

    Boswell, Tim

    Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

    Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

    Gidley, Sandra

    Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey)

    Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

    Goodman, Paul

    Brady, Graham

    Gray, James (N Wilts)

    Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

    Grayling, Chris

    Brazier, Julian

    Green, Damian (Ashford)

    Breed, Colin

    Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

    Brooke, Mrs Annette L

    Greenway, John

    Bruce, Malcolm

    Grieve, Dominic

    Burnett, John

    Gummer, rh John

    Burns, Simon

    Hague, rh William

    Burstow, Paul

    Hammond, Philip

    Burt, Alistair

    Harvey, Nick

    Butterfill, John

    Hawkins, Nick

    Cable, Dr. Vincent

    Hayes, John (S Holland)

    Calton, Mrs Patsy

    Heald, Oliver

    Cameron, David

    Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

    Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)

    Hendry, Charles

    Carmichael, Alistair

    Hoban, Mark (Fareham)

    Cash, William

    Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

    Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

    Hogg, rh Douglas

    Holmes, Paul

    Chidgey, David

    Hopkins, Kelvin

    Chope, Christopher

    Horam, John (Orpington)

    Clappison, James

    Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

    Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

    Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

    Collins, Tim

    Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

    Connarty, Michael

    Jack, rh Michael

    Corbyn, Jeremy

    Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

    Cormack, Sir Patrick

    Cotter, Brian

    Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

    Cousins, Jim

    Jenkin, Bernard

    Curry, rh David

    Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

    Davey, Edward (Kingston)

    Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

    Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

    Keetch, Paul

    Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)

    Key, Robert (Salisbury)

    Kirkbride, Miss Julie

    Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

    Kirkwood, Sir Archy

    Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

    Dawson, Hilton

    Laing, Mrs Eleanor

    Djanogly, Jonathan

    Lait, Mrs Jacqui

    Doughty, Sue

    Lamb, Norman

    683

    Lansley, Andrew

    Sanders, Adrian

    Laws, David (Yeovil)

    Sayeed, Jonathan

    Letwin, rh Oliver

    Sedgemore, Brian

    Liddell-Grainger, Ian

    Selous, Andrew

    Lidington, David

    Shepherd, Richard

    Lilley, rh Peter

    Simmonds, Mark

    Llwyd, Elfyn

    Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

    Loughton, Tim

    Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

    Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

    Skinner, Dennis

    McDonnell, John

    Smith, Sir Robert (WAb'd'ns & Kincardine)

    McIntosh, Miss Anne

    Mackay, rh Andrew

    Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

    Maclean, rh David

    Soames, Nicholas

    McLoughlin, Patrick

    Spelman, Mrs Caroline

    Malins, Humfrey

    Spicer, Sir Michael

    Maples, John

    Spring, Richard

    Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)

    Stanley, rh Sir John

    Steen, Anthony

    Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

    Streeter, Gary

    Marshall-Andrews, Robert

    Stunell, Andrew

    Mates, Michael

    Syms-Robert

    Maude, rh Francis

    Tapsell, sir Peter

    Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

    Taylor, Ian (Esher)

    May, Mrs Theresa

    Taylor, John (Solihull)

    Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

    Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

    Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F>

    Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

    Taylor, Sir Teddy

    Moore, Michael

    leather, Sarah

    Moss, Malcolm

    Thurso, John

    Murrison, Dr. Andrew

    Tonge, Dr. Jenny

    Norman, Archie

    Tredinnick, David

    Oaten, Mark (Winchester)

    Trend, Michael

    O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

    Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

    O' Neill, Martin

    Tyrle, Paul (N Cornwall)

    Öpik, Lembit

    Tyrie, Andrew

    Osborne, George (Tatton)

    Viggers, Peter

    Ottaway, Richard

    Walter Robert

    Page, Richard

    Wareing Robert N.

    Paice, James

    Waterson, Nigel

    Paterson, Owen

    Webb Steve (Northavon)

    Pickles, Eric

    Whittingdale, John

    Pickles, Eric

    Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

    Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

    Wigqin Bill

    Wilkinson, John

    Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

    Willetts, David

    Pugh, Dr. John

    Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

    Randall, John

    Williams, Roger (Brecon)

    Redwood, rh John

    Willis, Phil

    Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)

    Wilshire, David

    Rendel, David

    Winnick, David

    Robathan, Andrew

    Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

    Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)

    Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)

    Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

    Wood, Mike (Batley)

    Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

    Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

    Young, rh Sir George

    Roe, Mrs Marion

    Rosindell, Andrew

    Tellers for the Noes:

    Ruffley, David

    Angela Watkinson and

    Russell, Bob (Colchester)

    Richard Younger-Ross

    Question accordingly agreed to.
    Lords amendment disagreed to.
    Government amendments (a) to (f) to words restored agreed to.

    Clause 43

      APPLICATION BY PROSECUTION FOR TRIAL TO BE CONDUCTED WITHOUT JURY WHERE DANGER OF JURY TAMPERING
      Lords amendment: No. 34.
      Motion made, and Question put, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.—[Mr. Heppell]
      The House divided: Ayes 334, Noes 221.

      Division No. 373]

      [4:45 pm

      AYES

      Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Coleman, Iain

      Alexander, Douglas

      Colman, Tony

      Allen, Graham

      Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)

      Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

      Cooper, Yvette

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)

      Cousins, Jim

      Cranston, Ross

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Crausby, David

      Atherton, Ms Candy

      Cruddas, Jon

      Austin, John

      Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

      Bailey, Adrian

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Baird, Vera

      Cummings, John

      Banks, Tony

      Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

      Barron, rh Kevin

      Darling, rh Alistair

      Battle, John

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Bayley, Hugh

      David, Wayne

      Beard, Nigel

      Davidson, Ian

      Beckett, rh Margaret

      Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

      Begg, Miss Anne

      Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

      Bell, Stuart

      Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

      Benn, rh Hilary

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Benton, Joe (Bootle)

      Denham, rh John

      Berry, Roger

      Dismore, Andrew

      Best, Harold

      Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

      Betts, Clive

      Dobson, rh Frank

      Blackman, Liz

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Doran, Frank

      Blizzard, Bob

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      Blunkett, rh David

      Drew, David (Stroud)

      Boateng, rh Paul

      Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

      Borrow, David

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

      Edwards, Huw

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Efford, Clive

      Bradshaw, Ben

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Brennan, Kevin

      Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

      Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

      Farrelly, Paul

      Fitzpatrick, Jim

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Browne, Desmond

      Flint, Caroline

      Bryant, Chris

      Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

      Buck, Ms Karen

      Follett, Barbara

      Burden, Richard

      Foster, rh Derek

      Burgon, Colin

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      Burnham, Andy

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Cairns, David

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

      Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Gardiner, Barry

      Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

      George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

      Caplin, Ivor

      Gilroy, Linda

      Casale, Roger

      Godsiff, Roger

      Caton, Martin

      Goggins, Paul

      Cawsey, lan (Brigg)

      Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

      Challen, Colin

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      Chapman, Ben (WirralS)

      Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

      Chaytor, David

      Grogan, John

      Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

      Hain, rh Peter

      Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh

      Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

      Pentlands)

      Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

      Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

      Hanson, David

      Harman, rh Ms Harriet

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      Clelland, David

      Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)

      Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

      Coaker, Vernon

      Healey, John

      685

      Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

      MacShane, Denis

      Hendrick, Mark

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      Hepburn, Stephen

      McWilliam, John

      Heppell, John

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Hermon, Lady

      Mallaber, Judy

      Hesford, Stephen

      Mandelson, rh Peter

      Heyes, David

      Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

      Hill, Keith (Streatham)

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Hodge, Margaret

      Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

      Hoon, rh Geoffrey

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Martlew, Eric

      Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

      Merron, Gillian

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

      Michael, rh Alun

      Milburn, rh Alan

      Howells, Dr. Kim

      Miliband, David

      Hoyle, Lindsay

      Miller, Andrew

      Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)

      Moffatt, Laura

      Mole, Chris

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Moran, Margaret

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Morgan, Julie

      Hutton, rh John

      Morley, Elliot

      Ingram, rh Adam

      Morris, rh Estelle

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      Mountford, Kali

      Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

      Mudie, George

      Jamieson, David

      Mullin, Chris

      Jenkins, Brian

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

      Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

      Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

      Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

      Jones, Martyn (ClwydS)

      O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Olner, Bill

      Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

      Organ, Diana

      Kaufman, rh Gerald

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Keeble, Ms Sally

      Owen, Albert

      Keen, Alan (Feltham)

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Keen, Ann (Brentford)

      Pearson, Ian

      Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

      Perham, Linda

      Kemp, Fraser

      Picking, Anne

      Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

      Pickthall, Colin

      Khabra, Piara S.

      Pike, Peter (Burnley)

      Kidney, David

      Plaskitt, James

      King, Andy (Rugby)

      Pollard, Kerry

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Pound, Stephen

      Kumar, Dr. Ashok

      Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

      Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

      Lammy, David

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

      Primarolo, rh Dawn

      Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Purchase, Ken

      Lepper, David

      Purnell, James

      Leslie, Christopher

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

      Rammell, Bill

      Liddell, rh Mrs Helen

      Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

      Linton, Martin

      Raynsford, rh Nick

      Love, Andrew

      Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

      Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

      Luke, lain (Dundee E)

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      McCabe, Stephen

      Rooney, Terry

      McCartney, rh Ian

      Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

      MacDonald, Calum

      Ruane, Chris

      MacDougall, John

      Ruddock, Joan

      McFall, John

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

      McGuire, Mrs Anne

      McIsaac, Shona

      Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

      McKechin, Ann

      Salter, Martin

      McKenna, Rosemary

      Sarwar, Mohammad

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Savidge, Malcolm

      McNulty, Tony

      Sawford, Phil

      686

      Shaw, Jonathan

      Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

      Sheerman, Barry

      Trickett, Jon

      Sheridan, Jim

      Truswell, Paul

      Shipley, Ms Debra

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Singh, Marsha

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Smith, Angela (Basildon)

      Twigg, Derek (Halton)

      Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

      Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

      Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)

      Smith, John (Glamorgan)

      Vis, Dr. Rudi

      Soley, Clive

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Southworth, Helen

      Ward, Claire

      Spellar, rh John

      Watson, Tom (WBromwich E)

      Squire, Rachel

      Watts, David

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      White, Brian

      Steinberg, Gerry

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Stevenson, George

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)

      Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Williams, Betty (Conwy)

      Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

      Wills, Michael

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

      Stoate, Dr. Howard

      Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

      Wood, Mike (Batley)

      Straw, rh Jack

      Woodward, Shaun

      Stringer, Graham

      Woolas, Phil

      Stuart, Ms Gisela

      Worthington, Tony

      Sutcliffe, Gerry

      Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)

      Tami, Mark (Alyn)

      Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

      Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

      Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Wright, David (Telford)

      Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

      Timms, Stephen

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Tipping, Paddy

      Mr. Nick Ainger and

      Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

      Charlotte Atkins

      NOES

      Abbott, Ms Diane

      Cash, William

      Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

      Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

      Allan, Richard

      Amess, David

      Chidgey, David

      Ancram, rh Michael

      Chope, Christopher

      Arbuthnot, rh James

      Clappison, James

      Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

      Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Bacon, Richard

      Collins, Tim

      Baker, Norman

      Connarty, Michael

      Barker, Gregory

      Corbyn, Jeremy

      Barnes, Harry

      Cormack, Sir Patrick

      Baron, John (Billericay)

      Cotter, Brian

      Barrett, John

      Curry, rh David

      Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)

      Davey, Edward (Kingston)

      Beith, rh A. J.

      Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)

      Bellingham, Henry

      Bercow, John

      Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

      Blunt, Crispin

      Boswell, Tim

      Dawson, Hilton

      Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

      Djanogly, Jonathan

      Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey)

      Doughty, Sue

      Duncan, Peter (Galloway)

      Brady, Graham

      Duncan Smith, rh Iain

      Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

      Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

      Brazier, Julian

      Evans, Nigel

      Breed, Colin

      Fabricant, Michael

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      Fallon, Michael

      Bruce, Malcolm

      Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)

      Burnett, John

      Burns, Simon

      Fisher, Mark

      Burstow, Paul

      Flight, Howard

      Burt, Alistair

      Flook, Adrian

      Butterfill, John

      Forth, rh Eric

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      Calton, Mrs Patsy

      Fox, Dr. Liam

      Cameron, David

      Francois, Mark

      Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)

      Gale, Roger (N Thanet)

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Garnier, Edward

      687

      Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

      Murrison, Dr. Andrew

      Gidley, Sandra

      Norman, Archie

      Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

      Oaten, Mark (Winchester)

      Goodman, Paul

      O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

      Gray, James (N Wilts)

      Öpik, Lembit

      Grayling, Chris

      Osborne, George (Tatton)

      Green, Damian (Ashford)

      Ottaway, Richard

      Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

      Page, Richard

      Greenway, John

      Paice, James

      Grieve, Dominic

      Paterson, Owen

      Gummer, rh John

      Pickles, Eric

      Hague, rh William

      Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

      Hammond, Philip

      Harvey, Nick

      Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

      Hawkins, Nick

      Pugh, Dr. John

      Hayes, John (S Holland)

      Randall, John

      Heald, Oliver

      Redwood, rh John

      Heath, David

      Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)

      Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

      Rendel, David

      Hendry, Charles

      Robathan, Andrew

      Hoban, Mark (Fareham)

      Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)

      Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

      Hogg, rh Douglas

      Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

      Holmes, Paul

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Horam, John (Orpington)

      Roe, Mrs Marion

      Howard, rh Michael

      Rosindell, Andrew

      Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

      Ruffley, David

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      Jack, rh Michael

      Sanders, Adrian

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

      Sayeed, Jonathan

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

      Selous, Andrew

      Jenkin, Bernard

      Shepherd, Richard

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      Simmonds, Mark

      Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

      Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

      Keetch, Paul

      Skinner, Dennis

      Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)

      Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

      Key, Robert (Salisbury)

      Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

      Kirkbride, Miss Julie

      Soames, Nicholas

      Kirkwood, Sir Archy

      Spelman, Mrs Caroline

      Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

      Spicer, Sir Michael

      Laing, Mrs Eleanor

      Spring, Richard

      Lait, Mrs Jacqui

      Stanley, rh Sir John

      Lamb, Norman

      Steen, Anthony

      Lansley, Andrew

      Streeter, Gary

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Stunell, Andrew

      Leigh, Edward

      Syms, Robert

      Letwin, rh Oliver

      Tapsell, Sir Peter

      Liddell-Grainger, Ian

      Taylor, Ian (Esher)

      Lidington, David

      Taylor, John (Solihull)

      Lilley, rh Peter

      Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

      Loughton, Tim

      Taylor, Sir Teddy

      Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

      Teather, Sarah

      McDonnell, John

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      McIntosh, Miss Anne

      Thurso, John

      Mackay, rh Andrew

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Maclean, rh David

      Tredinnick, David

      McLoughlin, Patrick

      Trend, Michael

      Mahon, Mrs Alice

      Trimble, rh David

      Malins, Humfrey

      Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

      Maples, John

      Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

      Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)

      Tyrie, Andrew

      Viggers, Peter

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Walter, Robert

      Marshall-Andrews, Robert

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Mates, Michael

      Waterson, Nigel

      Maude, rh Francis

      Webb, Steve (Northavon)

      Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

      Whittingdale, John

      May, Mrs Theresa

      Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

      Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

      Wiggin, Bill

      Wilkinson, John

      Moore, Michael

      Willetts, David

      Moss, Malcolm

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      688

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

      Willis, Phil

      Young, rh Sir George

      Wilshire, David

      Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)

      Angela Watkinson and

      Richard Younger-Ross

      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Lords amendment No. 34 disagreed to.
      Government amendments (a) and (b) to words restored agreed to.
      Lords amendment No. 35 disagreed to.
      Lords amendment No. 36 disagreed to.
      Government amendments (a) and (b) to words restored agreed to.
      Lords amendment No. 37 disagreed to.
      Government amendment (a) to words restored agreed to.
      Lords amendment No. 38 disagreed to.
      Government amendment (a) to words restored agreed to.
      Lords amendment No. 39 disagreed to. Lords amendment No. 40 disagreed to.
      Government amendments (a) and (b) to words restored agreed to.
      It being more than one and three quarter hours after the commencement of proceedings, MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of business to be concluded at that hour, pursuant to Order [this day].
      Lords amendment No. I agreed to.

    Clause 4

      USE OF TELEPHONES FOR REVIEW OF POLICE DETENTION
      Lords amendment: No. 2.
      5 pm
      The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Caroline Flint): I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
      Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendment No. 4 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, and Lords amendment No. 8 and the Government motion to disagree thereto.
      Caroline Flint: Deleting clause 4 places an unnecessary restriction on a practical and efficient way of overcoming some of the resource and logistical problems of arranging reviews while people are held in detention. The Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 allows a range of safeguards and protections for a person in custody, including access to legal and medical advice, health care, recognised meal and refreshment breaks and, when appropriate, access to a suitable adult.
      A key factor in ensuring that the suspect's rights are protected lies in the further safeguard of the detention review process and the role of the review officer. Reviews of detention must be carried out frequently by an officer of at least the rank of inspector. The clause will maintain

      689
      the application of those important safeguards but will broaden the capacity so that telephone reviews can be conducted when they are considered the most practical and efficient approach.
      The provision will provide the review officer with straightforward alternatives of reviewing in person or by telephone. The choices continue to exist. When reviewing, the officer must consider each case individually and determine the most appropriate way in which to conduct the review, taking full account of the needs of the person in custody. The review officer will provide the opportunity for telephone representations by the detained person, the detainee's solicitor if available at the time and, if relevant, an appropriate adult, if available.
      We have made it clear in guidance that specific consideration must be given in the case of vulnerable suspects, including juveniles. We have developed that guidance with the valued support of key stakeholders, including the coalition of children's charities, which comprises the Children's Society, Barnardo's, ChildLine, National Children's Bureau, National Children's Home, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, the National Council of Voluntary Child Care Organisations and the National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders. The clause follows the recommendation of the joint Home Office and Cabinet Office review of PACE that allowing the use of telephone reviews in a wider set of circumstances would better serve the needs of the police and ensure the rights of suspects. It will help the police overcome the resource and logistical problems of arranging reviews, especially at night, and will save a great deal of valuable inspectors' time, particularly in terms of travelling to conduct reviews in remote rural areas.
      On Lords amendment No. 4, at present the law allows the police the discretion to retain fingerprints and non-intimate samples taken by them during the investigation of an offence from persons suspected of having committed a recordable offence. I am sure that my hon. Friends are aware that under PACE 1984, as amended, the police have the discretion to retain that information in respect of persons who have been charged with an offence, irrespective of whether that person is subsequently convicted of the offence. That important provision—I shall outline shortly just how important that power has proved to be—was introduced by an amendment to PACE in the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 in May of that year. Those amendments were subjected to close parliamentary scrutiny and Parliament concluded that the changes were compatible with human rights legislation.
      Lords amendment No. 4 would not only require the police to destroy the fingerprints and samples taken from persons arrested for a recordable offence and not subsequently charged, but would put the law back to the position it was in before the changes made in 2001.
      Simon Hughes: Will the Minister deal with an argument that the Government have never yet adequately answered? Why are people who are arrested and then released, without any charge or conviction, automatically put in a different category from people
      690
      who are never arrested by the authorities? Why should somebody have their DNA or fingerprints kept by the state when they are just as innocent and free from convictions as anybody else?
      Caroline Flint: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will expand on that point during my contribution. The danger is that not accepting the present situation would have an impact on what we want to achieve, which, as he rightly says, is the ability to retain fingerprints and DNA data from those who are arrested. It would also put the law back to the position it was in before the changes made in 2001. There was extensive discussion about whether it is right to retain information when someone has been charged but not convicted.
      I remind hon. Members that the changes were made as a result of two cases, one involving a murder and the other a rape, in which information held on the national DNA database linked the offenders to those offences. The Court of Appeal held that that information could not be used because, as the law then stood, it should have been destroyed when the offenders had been acquitted of the earlier offences for which the samples had originally been taken. The Court of Appeal therefore held that the evidence linking the offenders to the rape and the murder was inadmissible. Although the decision of the Court of Appeal was later overturned on appeal, Parliament decided, as the House of Lords had urged, to make the law clear and allow the police the discretion to retain all fingerprints and samples lawfully taken in the course of an investigation. As I said earlier, that change to the law has proved extremely important.
      Simon Hughes: Will the Minister give way?
      Caroline Flint: I would like to expand on this point. If the hon. Gentleman is going to repeat the same question, I would like a chance to answer it first.
      The change to the law has proved extremely important, and will be important in relation to the retention of data following arrest. The custodian of the national DNA database tells us that there are approximately 103,000 DNA profiles on the database that would previously have been removed under PACE. Of those, approximately 4,600 profiles of individuals have been linked with crime scene stains involving 4,760 offences. Those offences include 26 murders, 15 attempted murders, 27 rapes, 13 sexual offences, 14 aggravated burglaries and six offences related to the supply of controlled drugs. All those offences were committed after the person had been acquitted of an earlier charge. We do not want to change the law in that respect, which is what the Lords amendment, as it stands, would do.
      The Lords amendment would seriously inhibit the investigation, detection and prevention of crime. It might also delay the elimination of an individual from suspicion of having committed an offence, because DNA and fingerprints can equally be used to help the police to determine who did not commit the offence under investigation.
      Lynne Jones: Is not my hon. Friend arguing that DNA samples from every individual ought to be taken? Otherwise, she is saying

      691
      that people who have been arrested and had their fingerprints or DNA samples retained are more likely to be guilty of a crime than people who have not been arrested and had their samples taken. What evidence is there for that? Surely the Government ought to be legislating to compile a national database for everybody's DNA.
      Caroline Flint: No, we are not moving to a national database. Fortunately, in the UK it is still a minority of people who commit offences and therefore a minority who are arrested.
      We understand the concerns about the retention of samples and fingerprints taken from individuals who have been arrested and not charged, or charged and not convicted, but we believe that retaining that information is proportionate to the benefits of society and the prevention and detection of crime. Law-abiding citizens have no reason to be concerned about their fingerprints and samples being retained on the database. The law is already quite clear that their use is restricted to the prevention and detection of crime, the investigation of an offence or the conduct of a prosecution. In fact, arresting somebody is open to guidelines and procedures on the grounds for arrest.
      To those who say that we are creating a third class of person, neither innocent nor convicted but merely "under suspicion", I say that that is not the case. Where taking and retaining fingerprints or DNA samples is the norm, there is no stigma attached to the individual concerned and we would say no discrimination. These proposals are about having the means by which we can retain data not only to consider somebody if they have taken part in an offence, but to rule them out of offences that have been carried out.
      In relation to amendment No. 8, as originally drafted, clause 12 provided for the Secretary of State to alter by order made by statutory instrument the minimum age at which persons in police detention may be tested for specified class A drugs—crack, heroin and cocaine. The clause also provided for the order to be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. Such delegation and scrutiny were considered appropriate by the Regulatory Reform Committee, as reported in its 21st report. Noble Lords in the other place expressed particular concern that the clause did not provide a requirement for public consultation. I hope to assure the House that there will be sufficient safeguards before any change is made to the minimum age and that clause 12(3)(c) should be reinstated.
      Those provisions are to be introduced in limited areas on a pilot basis initially. We maintain that it is important that the Secretary of State should have the ability to change the minimum age, either up or down, should evidence emerge to suggest either that we would be justified in extending the clause to include persons under 14 or, for that matter, that testing those aged 14 and over should be increased.
      Reinsertion of clause 12(3)(c) would enable us to take action, as appropriate, in the light of any such evidence from the pilot evaluation findings or from other relevant research evidence. We believe that that flexibility is available in the case of pre-sentence drug testing, to which noble Lords in another place did not object. I can assure my hon. Friends that, as we indicated in the
      692
      memorandum submitted to the Regulatory Reform Committee, it is our intention that any decision to change the minimum age for drug testing will be made only after full consideration of all the available evidence and will take account of the views of relevant bodies. We also believe that it is sensible for the clause to be entirely consistent in this respect with that on pre-sentence drug testing.
      In all the areas that I have outlined, the proposals are about more effective policing to deal with situations that the police have to face in their day-to-day responsibilities. In some areas, that involves cutting bureaucracy; in others, it involves ensuring that we have information available.
      Mr. Graham Allen: Will my hon. Friend congratulate those in the police, not least in the Nottinghamshire force, on making the proposal in Committee that there should be testing at 14? Indeed, that will now be in the Bill. Will she also consider having an age limit that goes down to 10, which, although it sounds draconian, would stop some 10-year-olds who are class A drug users—crack cocaine users—and get to them before they develop a habit that could last the rest of their lives?
      Caroline Flint: I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. It is a reality that we have to face up to that there are young people who are using class A drugs. The evidence suggests that that is more prevalent among those aged 14 and above, which is why we want the testing, but having the opportunity to revise that figure up or down is important so that we can take action as soon as possible to get treatment to those young people and get them off the drugs. We disagree with the amendments.
      5.15 pm
      Mr. Humfrey Malins: I think the House will agree that when the Opposition parties have less than a minute to discuss such important issues the situation is shambolic, and a real reflection on the way of parliamentary life nowadays.
      I have 20 seconds in which to discuss each group of amendments. We all agree that the issue of personal liberty is fundamental, and that an attempt should always be made to review detention, in person if possible. We understand that a balance must be struck between review of detention in person and the freeing of officers for operational duties, but I hope to goodness that reviews by telephone will be not the norm but a rarity, and that every effort will be made to ensure that the reviews are conducted by a very senior officer in person—or, second best, by means of a video link. I am glad that that is being introduced; it is working very well in the courts in which I operate. The need to protect younger and vulnerable defendants is very important.
      It being two hours and forty-five minutes after the commencement of proceedings, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of business to be concluded at that hour, pursuant to Order [this day].
      Lords amendment No.2 disagreed to.
      Motion made and Question put, That the House disagrees with the Lords in amendment No. 4.
      The House divided: Ayes 331, Noes 56.
      Division No. 374] [5:16 pm

      AYES

      Abbott, Ms Diane

      Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)

      Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

      Cooper, Yvette

      Ainger, Nick

      Cousins, Jim

      Alexander, Douglas

      Cranston, Ross

      Allen, Graham

      Crausby, David

      Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

      Cruddas, Jon

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)

      Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Cummings, John

      Atherton, Ms Candy

      Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

      Austin, John

      Darling, rh Alistair

      Bailey, Adrian

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Baird, Vera

      David, Wayne

      Banks, Tony

      Davidson, Ian

      Barnes, Harry

      Davies, rh Denzil (L lanelli)

      Barron, rh Kevin

      Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

      Battle, John

      Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

      Bayley, Hugh

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Beard, Nigel

      Denham, rh John

      Beckett, rh Margaret

      Dismore, Andrew

      Begg, Miss Anne

      Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

      Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)

      Dobson, rh Frank

      Bell, Stuart

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      Benn, rh Hilary

      Doran, Frank

      Bennett, Andrew

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      Benton, Joe (Bootle)

      Drew, David (Stroud)

      Berry, Roger

      Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

      Best, Harold

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Betts, Clive

      Edwards, Huw

      Blackman, Liz

      Efford, Clive

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Blizzard, Bob

      Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

      Blunkett, rh David

      Farrelly, Paul

      Boateng, rh Paul

      Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

      Borrow, David

      Fisher, Mark

      Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

      Fitzpatrick, Jim

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Brennan, Kevin

      Flint, Caroline

      Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

      Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

      Follett, Barbara

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Foster, rh Derek

      Browne, Desmond

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      Bryant, Chris

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

      Buck, Ms Karen

      Burden, Richard

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      Burgon, Colin

      Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Gardiner, Barry

      Cairns, David

      George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

      Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

      Gerrard, Neil

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Gilroy, Linda

      Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

      Godsiff, Roger

      Casale, Roger

      Goggins, Paul

      Caton, Martin

      Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

      Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      Challen, Colin

      Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
      Chapman, Ben (Wirra/S)

      Grogan, John

      Chaytor, David

      Hain, rh Peter

      Clapham, Michael

      Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

      Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

      Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

      Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

      Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

      Harman, rh Ms Harriet

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Clelland, David

      Healey, John

      Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

      Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Hendrick, Mark

      Cohen, Harry

      Hepburn, Stephen

      Coleman, Iain

      Heppell, John

      Colman, Tony

      Hermon, Lady

      694

      Hesford, Stephen

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Heyes, David

      Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

      Hill, Keith (Streatham)

      Hodge, Margaret

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

      Martlew, Eric

      Hoon, rh Geoffrey

      Meacher, rh Michael

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Michael, rh Alun

      Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

      Milburn, rh Alan

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

      Miliband, David

      Miller, Andrew

      Howells, Dr. Kim

      Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

      Hoyle, Lindsay

      Moffatt, Laura

      Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)

      Mole, Chris

      Moran, Margaret

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Morgan, Julie

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Morris, rh Estelle

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Mountford, Kali

      Hutton, rh John

      Mudie, George

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      Mullin, Chris

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

      Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

      Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)

      Jamieson, David

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Jenkins, Brian

      Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

      Olner, Bill

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      O'Neill, Martin

      Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

      Organ, Diana

      Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Owen, Albert

      Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Kaufman, rh Gerald

      Pearson, Ian

      Keeble, Ms Sally

      Perham, Linda

      Keen, Alan (Feltham)

      Picking, Anne

      Keen, Ann (Brentford)

      Pickthall, Colin

      Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

      Pike, Peter (Burnley)

      Kemp, Fraser

      Plaskitt, James

      Khabra, Piara S.

      Pollard, Kerry

      Kidney, David

      Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

      Kilfoyle, Peter

      Pound, Stephen

      King, Andy (Rugby)

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

      Primarolo, rh Dawn

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Purchase, Ken

      Kumar, Dr. Ashok

      Purnell, James

      Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

      Lepper, David

      Raynsford, rh Nick

      Leslie, Christopher

      Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Liddell, rh Mrs Helen

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Linton, Martin

      Love, Andrew

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Lucas, lan (Wrexham)

      Luke, lain (Dundee E)

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

      Rooney, Terry

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

      McCabe, Stephen

      Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

      McCartney, rh Ian

      Ruane, Chris

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Ruddock, Joan

      MacDonald, Calum

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

      McDonnell, John

      MacDougall, John

      Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

      McFall, John

      Salter, Martin

      McIsaac, Shona

      Sarwar, Mohammad

      McKechin, Ann

      Savidge, Malcolm

      McKenna, Rosemary

      Sawford, Phil

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Shaw, Jonathan

      MacShane, Denis

      Sheerman, Barry

      McWilliam, John

      Sheridan, Jim

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Shipley, Ms Debra

      Mahon, Mrs Alice

      Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

      Mallaber, Judy

      Singh, Marsha

      Mandelson, rh Peter

      Skinner, Dennis

      Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

      Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)

      Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

      695

      Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

      Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

      Smith, John (Glamorgan)

      Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)

      Soley, Clive

      Vis, Dr. Rudi

      Southworth, Helen

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Squire, Rachel

      Ward, Claire

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Steinberg Gerry

      Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

      Stevenson, George

      Watts, David

      Stewart, David (Inverness E &

      white, Brian

      Lochaber)

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

      wicks, Malcolm

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      WMams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Stoate, Dr. Howard

      Williams, Betty (Conwy)

      Strang,rh Dr. Gavin

      Wills, Michael

      Stringer, Graham

      Winnick, David

      Stuart, Ms Gisela

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster

      Sutcliffe, Gerry

      C)

      Tami, Mark (Alyn)

      Wood, Mite (Batley)

      Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

      Woodward, Shaun

      Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

      Woolas Phil

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Worthington, Tony

      Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

      Wrav James (Gasgow

      Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

      Baillieston)

      Timms, Stephen

      Wright, Anthony D. (Gt

      Tipping, Paddy

      Yarmouth)

      Trickett, Jon

      Wright, David (Telford)

      Truswell, Paul

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Gillian Merron and

      Charlotte Atkins

      NOES

      Allan, Richard

      Lamb, Norman

      Baker, Norman

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Barrett, John

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Beith, rh A. J.

      Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury &

      Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

      Atcham)

      Breed, Colin

      Moore, Michael

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      Oaten, Mark (Winchester)

      Bruce, Malcolm

      Öpik, Lembit

      Burnett, John

      Price, Adam (E Carmarthen &

      Burstow, Paul

      Dinefwr)

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Pugh, Dr. John

      Calton, Mrs Patsy

      Rendel, David

      Campbell, rh Menzies (NEFife)

      Sanders, Adrian

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Shepherd, Richard

      Chidgey, David

      Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns &

      Corbyn, Jeremy

      Kincardine)

      Cotter, Brian

      Stunell, Andrew

      Davey, Edward (Kingston)

      Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

      Doughty, Sue

      Teather, Sarah

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Gidley, Sandra

      Thurso, John

      Harvey, Nick

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Heath, David

      Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

      Hogg, rh Douglas

      Webb, Steve (Northavon)

      Holmes, Paul

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      Willis, Phil

      Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

      Younger-Ross, Richard

      Keetch, Paul

      Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye amp;

      Inverness)

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Kirkwood, Sir Archy

      Bob Russell and

      Mr. Alan Reid

      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Lords amendment disagreed to.
      Lords amendment No. 8 disagreed to.
      Lords amendments Nos. 3, 5 to 7, 9 to 31, 41, to 99 and 308 to 318 agreed to.

    Clause 78

      AUTHORISATION OF INVESTIGATIONS
      Lords amendment: No. 100.
      Paul Goggins: I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendment No. 101 and Government motion to disagree thereto.
      5.30 pm
      Paul Goggins: One of the important safeguards that the Bill provides in respect of retrials for serious offences is that the personal consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions will be needed to authorise the taking of certain steps by the police to reinvestigate a person previously acquitted of a qualifying offence. The Bill as originally drafted provides that the DPP will not be able to give his consent to reopen an investigation unless he considers that there is, or would be, new evidence as a result of a reinvestigation, and that a reinvestigation would be in the public interest.
      To that requirement the Lords wish to add a further requirement that the DPP should seek the leave of a Crown court judge before consenting to a reinvestigation. I consider this amendment unnecessary. The DPP is sufficiently senior and experienced to take a decision on whether to allow the police, in reopening an investigation into an acquitted person, to take the steps set out in subsection (3).
      Mr. Hogg: But one question is, of course, whether it is in the public interest for the investigation to proceed. Surely the DPP is not an independent judge, in the same way as a judicial figure.
      Paul Goggins: But perhaps the most important point about independence is that the DPP is sufficiently independent of the police, in terms of his ability to review their request for a reinvestigation. Independence is required, but independence from the police is most important.
      The Government consider that the DPP's taking that decision provides the necessary safeguard to ensure that the acquitted person is not being harassed by the police—an issue that Members raised in previous debates. At the reinvestigation stage, it is quite proper for the decision to reinvestigate to be taken by the prosecuting authorities rather than by the courts. Involving a Crown court judge in proceedings at that stage would also make the process more cumbersome. Many layers of safeguards are already built into the exercising of the powers listed in subsection (3). I do not believe that requiring the DPP to secure the leave of a Crown court judge is necessary before a reinvestigation can proceed.
      The safeguards on reinvestigation need also to be seen in context. Before an application for a retrial can actually be made, the DPP's consent is required again. He must be satisfied at that stage that there is new and compelling evidence, and that it is in the public interest for the application to be made. The Court of Appeal

      697
      then determines that application, and it is at that stage that a judicial decision is properly required. As such, I invite the House to disagree to the amendment.
      Mr. Grieve: This brings us back to a discussion that we had in Committee a very long time ago, in which we told the Minister that in our view, having judicial scrutiny before allowing the process to take place would be an extra and worthwhile safeguard. Such scrutiny would have been an important safeguard in precisely ensuring, as has been suggested, that the public interest and above all fairness, which the judiciary has a special role in ensuring, be taken fully into account. Of course, this process could be unfair and very onerous. It is therefore interesting to note that when the Bill went to the other place, the Lords seemed also to have been exercised and anxious about this issue.
      The Minister will be reassured to learn that, because this is a small matter, I do not intend to divide the House on it. If the Government wish to remove the amendment, on their heads be it, but I remain mystified as to why they did not accept it a long time ago. My view has always been that it would provide an important safeguard that would reassure the public and those who will be put through this process—including those who may, of course, eventually be acquitted—that it will be gone through only for good reasons, and that there will be judicial scrutiny throughout; otherwise, the danger is that, even allowing for the independence of the DPP, the perception will be that an individual is being put through an administrative process that is deeply damaging to his liberties, and which involves no proper oversight.
      Mr. Hogg: I am not one to impugn the DPP or to criticise unnecessarily, but we must not overemphasise his independence—he is head of the prosecution service.
      Mr. Grieve: My right hon. and learned Friend is right. That is why we tried to put the safeguard into the Bill at a very early stage. It was reading the Bill late at night—not some lobby group—that led me to believe that the amendment would be valuable. I remained puzzled throughout our proceedings that the Government would not accept a proposal that struck me as being so modest and so sensible. The ways of government are sometimes mysterious. I certainly do not wish to deny the Government their Bill on this one issue, so I shall, with some reluctance, keep quiet about it hereafter. I do not know whether their lordships will do likewise—that is a matter for them. I do, however, regret the Government's unnecessary removal of a safeguard that would have been of value.
      Mr. David Heath: I share the concerns expressed by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve). I suspect that Liberal Democrat Members may be made of slightly sterner stuff on this issue. We believe that the safeguard is important, if small. I entirely agree with the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) that whatever personal merits we see in the Director of Public Prosecutions, and although he is a senior figure who is well capable of taking such
      698
      decisions, we must recognise that he has one impediment that cannot be avoided—he is part of the prosecution system. As we are dealing with the rights of the individual not to be harassed or otherwise put to inconvenience unnecessarily by an over-mighty prosecution system, the intervention of the judiciary at that point is entirely appropriate.
      In previous debates, the Government advanced the argument that judicial review at a later stage is capable of remedying any improper decision on the part of the DPP. That is even more cumbersome than the suggestion in the amendment, and has the considerable disbenefit of being too late to do the job properly. Given that this is an important departure from our previous practice, we want to ensure that the greatest possible safeguards are built into the system. It would be a very small step for the DPP to go to a judge to seek agreement by an ex parte application for an investigation or reinvestigation to proceed.
      The noble Lady who speaks for Conservative Members in another place was absolutely right in her arguments, and I have heard nothing from the Minister this evening that persuades me otherwise. Until we hear a cogent argument to the contrary, we should support our noble Friends and others in another place who insisted on the amendment, and await the conclusion later this week.
      Mr. Allen: My hon. Friend the Minister will note that Opposition Front Benchers gave no welcome in principle to this improvement to our law. If it is brought in, I hope that he will not be backward in coming forward in reminding them of that in a year or so, when serious cases such as those that we discussed in Committee—for example, involving child killers who later confess to cellmates—have been brought before the law for retrial.
      Mr. Grieve: I find that comment rather ungracious, especially in view of the Opposition's participation in the progress of the Bill. We have accepted throughout that there are grounds for allowing retrial for certain grave offences. We have worked with the Government to achieve a satisfactory outcome, and that has largely been achieved. I am grateful to the Government for that and I hope that this measure makes some small improvement to the criminal justice system. However, given the shortness of time available, I thought that I would concentrate on the issue before the House.
      Mr. Allen: I am grateful that my intervention has prompted the Opposition to put the record straight.
      Mr. Hogg: In my opinion, the Lords got this matter about right. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) reminded the House that retrials are a major departure from established principle and practice. We have accepted that they are justified in a limited number of cases, but we must face the fact that the process of a retrial can be extremely oppressive for defendants. My hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) rightly pointed out that some of those offenders will be acquitted, but the process of retrial could involve much expense, trouble, concern and anxiety for people who were acquitted at the first trial. Therefore, we should be chary of embarking on a process that could give rise to those consequences.

      699
      I do not wish to be unduly critical of the post of Director of Public Prosecution. Indeed, I have no justification for being so, but that does not alter the fact that he is head of the Crown Prosecution Service. As such, the DPP has a vested interest in pressing forward with prosecutions, because that is his function. I am concerned that a director may give his or her consent to a retrial in circumstances that do not wholly warrant it, in part because of the internal pressures in the CPS to secure convictions. The Lords have put in a filter, whereby the application by the DPP has to be considered by an independent judicial figure. That is a filter, but it also drives the DPP to consider carefully the nature of the application that he is about to make and whether or not the evidence on which the application will rest is sufficient to satisfy the criteria. Not only is the provision a filter in itself, but it will also drive the DPP to make applications only in appropriate cases.
      I hope that the Lords stick by this measure. If the matter is put to a Division, I shall vote to support the Lords. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield will not press it to a Division, but others may, and they will have my support.
      Paul Goggins: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) for reminding the House of the wider context of our somewhat narrow discussion, which is that in future in those small number of cases that he mentioned justice will be delivered rather than denied, as it would have been in the past. I apologise to the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) for my lack of cogency, but I see the issue as straightforward. The Bill includes safeguards in relation to this matter. Reinvestigation will require the personal approval of the DPP, who is a senior and experienced individual. He or she is independent from the police, and the Court of Appeal must give its approval if there is to be a retrial.
      Mr. Allen: Any trial is an onerous experience for a defendant, but does my hon. Friend agree that we should not forget how onerous it can be for a victim's family when new and compelling evidence comes forward and they are not allowed to bring the offender to book, however likely it is that that person is guilty?
      Paul Goggins: As my hon. Friend knows—he was on the Committee and is assiduous in following up such issues—the Bill is about redressing the imbalance in our system in favour of victims. That is a theme that the Home Office is pursuing on several fronts, not least through this Bill.
      Mr. Heath: The hon. Member for Nottingham, North made a potent point, but it is irrelevant to the matter that we are considering, which is simply whether judicial approval should be given for the reopening of an investigation. That does not affect the conduct of the reinvestigation—whatever the hon. Gentleman may blather from a sedentary position.
      Paul Goggins: The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, North is important, but I agree with the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome that this is a straightforward matter. I ask the House to disagree with the Lords in their amendment No. 100.
      Question put, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment:—
      The House divided: Ayes 357, Noes 58.

      Division No. 375]

      [5:45 pm

      AYES

      Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Ainger, Nick

      Clelland, David

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

      Alexander, Douglas

      Coaker, Vernon

      Allen, Graham

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

      Cohen, Harry

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale &

      Coleman, Iain

      Darwen)

      Colman, Tony

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)

      Atherton, Ms Candy

      Cooper, Yvette

      Atkins, Charlotte

      Cousins, Jim

      Austin, John

      Cranston, Ross

      Bailey, Adrian

      Crausby, David

      Baird, Vera

      Cruddas, Jon

      Banks, Tony

      Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

      Barnes, Harry

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Barron, rh Kevin

      Cummings, John

      Battle, John

      Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack

      Bayley, Hugh

      (Copeland)

      Beard, Nigel

      Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

      Begg, Miss Anne

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)

      Darling, rh Alistair

      Bell, Stuart

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Benn, rh Hilary

      David, Wayne

      Bennett, Andrew

      Davidson, Ian

      Benton, Joe (Bootle)

      Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

      Berry, Roger

      Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

      Best, Harold

      Davis, rh Terry (B' ham Hodge H)

      Betts, Clive

      Dawson, Hilton

      Blackman, Liz

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Denham, rh John

      Blizzard, Bob

      Dismore, Andrew

      Blunkett, rh David

      Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

      Boateng, rh Paul

      Dobson, rh Frank

      Borrow, David

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

      Doran, Frank

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      Bradshaw, Ben

      Drew, David (Stroud)

      Brennan, Kevin

      Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

      Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Wallsend)

      Edwards, Huw

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Efford, Clive

      Browne, Desmond

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Bryant, Chris

      Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

      Buck, Ms Karen

      Farrelly, Paul

      Burden, Richard

      Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

      Burgon, Colin

      Fisher, Mark

      Burnham, Andy

      Fitzpatrick, Jim

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Cairns, David

      Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

      Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

      Follett, Barbara

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Foster, rh Derek

      Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      Caplin, Ivor

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings

      Casale, Roger

      & Rye)

      Caton, Martin

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

      Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)

      Challen, Colin

      Gardiner, Barry

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

      Chaytor, David

      Gerrard, Neil

      Clapham, Michael

      Gilroy, Linda

      Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

      Godsiff, Roger

      Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh

      Goggins, Paul

      Pentlands)

      Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

      Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge &

      Grogan, John

      Chryston)

      Hain, rh Peter

      701

      Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

      Love, Andrew

      Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

      Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      Luke, lain (Dundee E)

      Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

      Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

      Hanson, David

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Harman, rh Ms Harriet

      McCabe, Stephen

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      McCartney, rh Ian

      Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil &

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Rhymney)

      MacDonald, Calum

      Healey, John

      MacDougall, John

      Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

      McFall, John

      Hendrick, Mark

      McGuire, Mrs Anne

      Hepburn, Stephen

      McIsaac, Shona

      Heppell, John

      McKechin, Ann

      Hermon, Lady

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Hesford, Stephen

      McNulty, Tony

      Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia

      MacShane, Denis

      Heyes, David

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      Hill, Keith (Streatham)

      McWilliam, John

      Hodge, Margaret

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

      Mahon, Mrs Alice

      Hoon, rh Geoffrey

      Mallaber, Judy

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Mandelson, rh Peter

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

      Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

      Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N &

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Sefton E)

      Marshall, David (Glasgow

      Howells, Dr. Kim

      Shettleston)

      Hoyle, Lindsay

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Hughes, Beverley (Stretford &

      Martlew, Eric

      Urmston)

      Meacher, rh Michael

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Michael, rh Alun

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Milburn, rh Alan

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Miliband, David

      Hutton, rh John

      Miller, Andrew

      Ingram, rh Adam

      Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      Moffatt, Laura

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead &

      Mole, Chris

      Highgate)

      Morgan, Julie

      Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

      Morley, Elliot

      Jamieson, David

      Morris, rh Estelle

      Jenkins, Brian

      Mountford, Kali

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

      Mudie, George

      Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn

      Mullin, Chris

      Hatfield)

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

      Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)

      Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

      Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

      O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

      Keeble, Ms Sally

      Olner, Bill

      Keen, Alan (Feltham)

      O'Neill, Martin

      Keen, Ann (Brentford)

      Organ, Diana

      Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Kemp, Fraser

      Owen, Albert

      Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Khabra, Piara S.

      Pearson, Ian

      Kidney, David

      Perham, Linda

      Kilfoyle, Peter

      Picking, Anne

      King, Andy (Rugby)

      Pickthall, Colin

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green &

      Pike, Peter (Burnley)

      Bow)

      Plaskitt, James

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Pollard, Kerry

      Kumar, Dr. Ashok

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

      Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

      Lammy, David

      Pound, Stephen

      Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

      Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham

      Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

      E)

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      Lepper, David

      Primarolo, rh Dawn

      Leslie, Christopher

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Purchase, Ken

      Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

      Purnell, James

      Liddell, rh Mrs Helen

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Linton, Martin

      Quinn, Lawrie

      702

      Rammell, Bill

      Stringer, Graham

      Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

      Stuart, Ms Gisela

      Raynsford, rh Nick

      Sutcliffe, Gerry

      ,

      Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N &

      Tami, Mark (Alyn)

      Bellshill)

      Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbuiy)

      Robertson, John (Glasgow

      Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

      Anniesland)

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry

      Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

      NW)

      Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      Timms, Stephen

      Rooney, Terry

      Tipping, Paddy

      Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

      Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

      Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

      Trickett, Jon

      Ruane, Chris

      Truswell, Paul

      Ruddock, Joan

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Chester)

      Twigg, Derek (Halton)

      Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Salter, Martin

      Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

      Sarwar, Mohammad

      Vis, Dr. Rudi

      Savidge, Malcolm

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Sawford, Phil

      Ward, Claire

      Shaw, Jonathan

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Sheerman, Barry

      Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

      Sheridan, Jim

      Watts, David

      Shipley, Ms Debra

      White, Brian

      Short, rh Clare

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Singh, Marsha

      Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Williams, Betty (Conwy)

      Smith, Angela (Basildon)

      Wills, Michael

      Smith, rh Chris (Islington S &

      Winnick, David

      Finsbury)

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster

      Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

      C)

      Smith, John (Glamorgan)

      Wood, Mike (Batley)

      Soley, Clive

      Woodward, Shaun

      Southworth, Helen

      Woolas, Phil

      Spellar, rh John

      Worthington, Tony

      Squire, Rachel

      Wray, James (Glasgow

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      Baillieston)

      Steinberg, Gerry

      Wright, Anthony D. (Gt

      Stevenson, George

      Yarmouth)

      Stewart, David (Inverness E &

      Wright, David (Telford)

      Lochaber)

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      Stoate, Dr. Howard

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

      Margaret Moran and

      Gillian Merron

      NOES

      Allan, Richard

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

      Baker, Norman

      Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

      Barrett, John

      Keetch, Paul

      Beith, rh A. J.

      Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye &

      Brake, Tom (Carsha/ton)

      Inverness)

      Breed, Colin

      Kirkwood, Sir Archy

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      Lamb, Norman

      Bruce, Malcolm

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Burnett, John

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Burstow, Paul

      Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury &

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Atcham)

      Calton, Mrs Patsy

      Moore, Michael

      Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)

      Oaten, Mark (Winchester)

      Carmichael, Alistair

      ⃶pik, Lembit

      Chidgey, David

      Price, Adam (E Carmarthen &

      Cotter, Brian

      Dinefwr)

      Davey, Edward (Kingston)

      Pugh, Dr. John

      Doughty, Sue

      Rendel, David

      Gidley, Sandra

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

      Sanders, Adrian

      Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W &

      Shepherd, Richard

      Abingdon)

      Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns &

      Harvey, Nick

      Kincardine)

      Heath, David

      Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

      Hogg, rh Douglas

      Stunell, Andrew

      Holmes, Paul

      Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

      703

      Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Teather, Sarah

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Willis, Phil

      Thurso, John

      Younger-Ross, Richard

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Webb, Steve (Northavon)

      Mr. Alan Reid and

      Mr. Don Foster

      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Lords amendment disagreed to.
      It being more than three and a quarter hours after the commencement of proceedings, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of business to be concluded at that hour, pursuant to Order [this day].
      Lords amendment No. 101 disagreed to.
      Lords amendments Nos. 102 to 113 agreed to.

    New Clause
    Lords amendment: No. 114.
    Paul Goggins: I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Lords amendment No. 115 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendment (a) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 116 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 117 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 118 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 119 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 120 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 121 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 122 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 123 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 124 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendment (a) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 125 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 126 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendment (a) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 127 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 128 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 129 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendments (a) to (e) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 130 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendments (a) to (d) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 131and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 132 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendment (a) to words restored; Lords amendments Nos. 133 to 136.
    Paul Goggins: We now come to the part of the Bill that deals with the admissibility of evidence, specifically evidence of bad character and hearsay evidence. These are highly important provisions.
    Trials should be a search for the truth and the rules of evidence should help to ensure that that is the case. The present law in both of those areas has, however, been
    704
    roundly criticized—from the royal commission on criminal justice in 1993 to the Law Commission's reports in 1997 and 2001 and Lord Justice Auld's review of the criminal courts. There is a wide consensus in favour of reform.
    6 pm
    Mr. Kidney: My hon. Friend mentions the Law Commission. The Lords amendment on bad character would import wholesale the Law Commission's draft legislation on bad character, which seeks to clarify and modernise the law. It is authoritative because it is based on the Law Commission's investigation, report and draft Bill. Why does my hon. Friend not just take what he has got and accept the Lords amendment?
    Paul Goggins: I shall explain why we are not doing that. We give credit to the Law Commission for the work that it has done, but argue that we want to go further than it has recommended. I hope that during the next few minutes I shall be able to apprise my hon. Friend of why we want to go further than the Law Commission's initial recommendations.
    This part of the Bill is intended to provide a new statutory framework for the admission of those two types of evidence. Amendments adopted in the other place would, however, reduce the efficacy of the reform that the Government propose. I shall deal first with the evidence of bad character. Amendments adopted by the other place would replace the Government's proposals with almost exactly the scheme drafted by the Law Commission, as my hon. Friend pointed out. We agree with much in that scheme. As my noble Friend the Minister of State made clear in the other place, the Government's proposals are based on the Law Commission's work and adopt many of its recommendations. However, we do not believe that those go far enough in rebalancing the system to ensure that the rules promote the admission of relevant evidence, subject, of course, to considerations of fairness. Without such rebalancing, courts and juries will continue to have withheld from them important evidence that could give them the full picture of a particular case.
    In our view, a different approach is required—one of inclusion, which makes it clear that relevant evidence is admissible. It will of course be for the prosecution to demonstrate in the course of proceedings how the evidence relates to the particular case.
    Mr. Grieve: Let us take just one example: previous convictions. It is accepted—I think that the Government would accept this—that if someone has a previous conviction, that in itself cannot show that they are guilty of anything, unless there is a link between the previous conviction and the crime for which they are currently being tried. That is the classic example that shows why such evidence should be excluded unless there is a reason to include—it not the other way around. That is what the Law Commission wanted to do, but for some reason the Government do not want to do that.
    Paul Goggins: It is because we are persuaded of the need for an inclusive approach. We are making the

    705
    presumption that that kind of information is admissible as evidence. Of course, the defence has the opportunity to argue that such evidence is not relevant, and it could argue that it was more prejudicial than probative in a particular case, so there are safeguards in place—but the information referred to by the hon. Gentleman in his example may be relevant in a particular case.
    We have always said that we will listen to constructive suggestions for change to ensure that our proposals are cast in the best possible form. We are aware that a number of concerns have been expressed over the way in which the Bill's scheme will work in practice and we are prepared to make improvements to reflect those. I am therefore moving several amendments to make three changes. The first concerns the definition of evidence of bad character. The definition that the Government originally proposed was that recommended by the Law Commission, but concern was expressed that that was too vague and would enable the admission of evidence that was too remote. We recognise that it is important to be as clear and precise as possible, so we have redrafted the definition to tighten the wording while maintaining a fairly wide ambit.
    The second change is to ensure that the defendant has clear notice of the prosecution's intention to rely on evidence of his bad character. That reflects a concern that a more inclusionary approach would lead to the admission of evidence where it was not appropriate or safe for it to be heard. That is not our intention. We believe that the system needs to be rebalanced to ensure that relevant evidence is admitted unless good reason is shown for excluding it, but we recognise that there must be a clear opportunity for a defendant to apply to exclude the evidence and for that issue to be decided by the court. That will be facilitated by having a formal requirement of notice.
    The third change relates to the admissibility of juvenile convictions in adult proceedings. At present, no mention may be made of those convictions. That is too restrictive an approach and our proposals will lift that absolute prohibition, making such evidence admissible subject to the general scheme of the Bill. Concern has been expressed that that goes too far, that a person's record at that age will not have the relevance of later offending, and that particular considerations apply in the context of juvenile offending. We have some sympathy with the idea that such admission should take place on a more restricted basis, so we propose that those convictions should be admissible only where the interests of justice specifically require it. We intend that test to exclude a sporadic record for minor offences while ensuring that continual or persistent offending or convictions for very serious offences are capable of admission.
    Hon. Members will notice that there are a number of other amendments in the name of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
    Mr. Hogg: To what extent has the Minister addressed the following issue? He will understand that under existing law, a defendant will often refrain from attacking the character of a Crown witness for fear of his own character being disclosed. Under the Government's proposals, the presumption, broadly speaking, seems to
    706
    be that the bad character of the defendant can be disclosed in any event. That being so, the restraint that operates at present on defendants not to attack the character of Crown witnesses will disappear.
    Paul Goggins: I am becoming more familiar with some of those issues by the hour. I understand that the right hon. and learned Gentleman refers to "the shield". We believe that the shield should not be available with impunity to the defendant, and that he should not be allowed to make assertions without some accountability and responsibility for them.
    Mr. Denham: On the question of bad character, does my hon. Friend agree that of all the provisions in the Bill that have caused concern—I share many of those concerns—this is where the risk of something going wrong is probably greatest, in terms of the import of particular evidence being misunderstood by the jury in the course of the trial? The case for moving in this direction is good, but how do the Government propose to examine how the law will work in operation to see whether any of the concerns that have been expressed are justified or whether it is working well?
    Paul Goggins: It is good practice for the Government to examine the impact of their legislation in any sphere. Earlier today we discussed the Sexual Offences Bill, whose implementation we shall need to monitor carefully. The same will be true of this Bill. I accept what my right hon. Friend says about some of the dangers. We acknowledge that there would be dangers if the provisions were unrestrained, but I have already referred to the requirement for notice to be given and made the point that the defence has the opportunity, without the jury in the courtroom, to argue that a particular piece of evidence that the prosecution wants to bring forward is not relevant or is more prejudicial than probative. I think that we have put in place safeguards that will reassure my right hon. Friend, but I certainly note his concerns.
    On hearsay evidence, the relevant amendment that we are discussing would remove clause 107. That clause is a key part of the new statutory scheme. It provides an overarching statement of the circumstances in which hearsay evidence is admissible, setting the context for the rest of that part of Bill. Those who opposed the clause in the other place did so for two very different reasons.
    First, objections were raised in general to the scheme proposed in the Bill, to which clause 107 provides the gateway. We believe that those objections are misplaced. The Bill provides a clear scheme based on recognised and established categories of admissibility, but consolidates the current rules and restates them comprehensively and coherently. As the House will know, the Lord Chief Justice has suggested that something simpler is needed, akin to the civil rules of evidence. We have given that careful consideration, but do not believe that a complete relaxation of the hearsay rule, as in civil proceedings, would be appropriate for criminal cases where different concerns, such as the fairness of the proceedings, take precedence. In our view, it is important to provide a clear structure for the admission of hearsay evidence, and we consider that the best framework is based on clear and accepted

    707
    categories of admissibility, with residual discretion to operate in the interests of justice.
    That brings me to the second concern that has been expressedߞthe extent to which the courts should have discretion to admit evidence that does not fall within one of the recognised categories. That is dealt with in clause 107(1)(d). The Government remain firmly of the view that that is an important aspect of the scheme. Certainly, it was considered necessary by the Law Commission, which recommended a provision along those lines. It might be helpful if I give an example of why that sort of discretion is needed.
    Let us take a case where a man is accused of murdering his ex-wife. His defence is that he was 200 miles away at the time of her death. He has only one alibi—a neighbour's seven-year-old child saw him when he popped out to walk his dog. The child gives a statement to the police the next day confirming the man's presence at home. She remembers the incident so well because he stopped to let her pet the dog. But by the time of the trial, she cannot remember anything about it at all. The jury cannot be told about her statement because it would be hearsay. Juries in other countries, such as Canada, are trusted to hear that type of evidence, so why can they not be trusted to do so in this country?
    That example is not far-fetched—the Court of Appeal dealt with a similar problem in the case of Thomas, when it upheld the judge's ruling that the statement was inadmissible hearsay, but it allowed the appeal as a conviction obtained in such circumstances could not be regarded as safe. That illustrates the need for some form of discretion to admit evidence outside of the categories provided in the Bill.
    We have listened carefully to the concerns that have been expressed about whether the discretion in subsection (1)(d) is insufficiently focused. Government amendment (a) to Lords amendment No. 132 will tighten that provision to ensure that evidence can be admitted only where doing so is in the interests of justice. That will allow other out-of-court statements to be used where they are cogent and reliable.
    There is a wide consensus in favour of reforming those two areas of the law. This is not about securing convictions at the expense of defendants' rights. Clear safeguards have been built into the scheme to ensure that the burden of proof continues to rest on the prosecution and that trials are conducted fairly. However, this is about ensuring that the rules are clear and facilitate the admission of evidence of previous offending or other misconduct where doing so is appropriate and safe. Our proposals have drawn substantially on the excellent work undertaken by the Law Commission. We consider it important that the original proposals in the Bill, amended as I have outlined, are restored.
    Mr. Grieve: Perhaps I can start in a conciliatory tone by dealing with hearsay evidence first, because the Government have gone a considerable distance towards meeting the anxieties about hearsay evidence that have been expressed in the House and in another place. There is general agreement that revisiting the hearsay rules is desirable and that there are good reasons why certain forms of hearsay should be admissible in front of a jury,
    708
    who should be trusted with such information, with the judge providing guidance and explanation about the fact that it is not first-hand evidence and on how to approach it with caution.
    As the Minister has rightly explained, the anxiety was that the safeguards were insufficient, particularly in relation to multiple hearsay. Government amendment (a) to Lords amendment No. 132, which relates to clause 107(1)(d), is very small, but it is of considerable significance. It goes a long way to meeting those objections, particularly as the anxiety in respect of subsection (1)(d) was that it clearly implied in its original form. as the Minister will appreciate, that such evidence would be withheld only in the most exceptional circumstances. It is clear that the interests of justice require a judge to weigh that on each occasion without pressure being put on him by the words:
    "despite the difficulties there may be in challenging the statement".
    It is precisely the difficulties in challenging the statement that make hearsay such a dangerous tool if it is not handled with a great deal of care.
    The Government have dealt with that issue, and although I obviously cannot be sure what will happen when the Bill returns, I am satisfied that they have handled this matter correctly. I am grateful to the Minister, even at the eleventh hour and 59 minutes—or perhaps even beyond the twelfth hour—for the fact that we have succeeded in getting that right. The Government have come up with a number of amendments in respect of bad character that appear to be worthy and certainly represent an improvement.
    6.15 pm
    Mr. Garnier: Perhaps this intervention comes about through slowness in my intellect. I have listened to what the Minister and my hon. Friend have said, but I am still not persuaded by their happy acceptance that Government amendment (a) to Lords amendment No. 132 will do what they think it is intended to do. I wonder whether my hon. Friend will be patient enough to explain to me in a little more detail why he thinks that that Government amendment will do what he hopes it will do.
    Mr. Grieve: The Government intend that the amendment will provide far greater discretion to exclude such evidence where the judge considers that the interests of justice require that it should not be admitted, so the amendment will beef up judicial discretion. To that extent—I accept to that extent only—it represents a significant improvement, which may go some way to reassure those in the other place who were worried about the issue that the Government have taken their concerns on board.
    There are other ways to approach that matter, and my hon. and learned Friend is right to suggest that substantial anxiety was expressed about hearsay evidence in Committee and in the other place. I am certainly not saying that the Government's proposal

    709
    represents the panacea for all ills, but it is a significant improvement in the light of the previous criticisms. I do not think that I can go beyond that.
    Mr. Gamier: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for saying that, but I want to try to project myself forward. How would I sum up to a jury—
    Mr. Allen: Oh no.
    Mr. Garnier: I know that the hon. Gentleman is not terribly interested in the practical consequences of such Bills, but we—[Interruption.] I do not think that he can intervene on an intervention. We have to be sure that the laws that we pass in the House are not only attractive to us as legislators but can be put into practical effect in the law courts. I am sorry for the hon. Gentleman, but the courts are where the law is applied when people are on trial for their liberty. I am not suggesting that my hon. Friend is getting this wrong, but perhaps I am being very dim about it. I just want him to be able to convince me that when we push the provision through into law and he and I have to apply it as either advocates or judges, it will do what we think it will do. I am yet to be convinced that it will do so.
    Mr. Grieve: My hon. and learned Friend makes a perfectly good point. One of the anxieties consistently expressed about the Bill was that it would make judges' lives more difficult in summing up cases to juries. Some of the issues that will be presented become more complex. Perhaps, in fairness to the Government, I should say that the mischief might not lie entirely with them, because the argument that more hearsay evidence should be admitted is a pressure that has come from a number of areas outside Government as well. Indeed, I think that the Minister alluded to the fact that the Lord Chief Justice has expressed views about the desirability of admitting more hearsay evidence—the Minister may confirm that or correct what I say—and a belief that
    more hearsay evidence should be available to juries, but balanced, of course, by judicial explanation.
    I have no doubt, however, that my hon. and learned Friend is right to suggest that judicial explanation puts more difficulty and pressure on judges and, of course, there is a greater of possibility of getting it wrong. If they get it wrong, there will be appeals. If there are appeals, verdicts may be overturned because judges failed to direct juries properly on the weight to be attached to certain evidence. My hon. and learned Friend is in no sense wrong in asking whether I have got it right. I have to accept that a bit of a wing and a prayer is involved.
    Nevertheless, the point made by the Minister about the denial of hearsay evidence sometimes being greatly to the prejudice of a defendant is absolutely correct. It seems to me that that is a correct analysis of the current state of the law. In relation to saying that hearsay should be left squarely as it is, it has in fact been eroded in a number of directions, as my hon. and learned Friend knows, and practising in the criminal courts one notices how it creeps in almost by agreement between the prosecution and the defence with increasing regularity, when it is felt that, in the interests of justice, that should happen.
    710
    In response to my hon. and learned Friend, if this had been my Bill—or the Opposition in government's Bill—we would not have started from here. Having started from here, however, and having had some serious discussions with the Minister—we have never had disputes, and we have had remarkably good relations—I accept that the current drafting goes some way towards meeting the objections that have been raised previously. That is the best way that I can leave the matter.
    To turn to the nub of the issue, bad character—I want to allow others to speak on the matter—their lordships read the clauses drafted by the Government, which are of some complexity, and concluded that they were seriously flawed. To see that, one needs only to read the debate in the House of Lords, in which the Minister acknowledged that the participation and level of the discussion had been of a very high quality. They were so exercised that they took the original proposals of the Law Commission and—to remind the Minister of what happened-the then Home Secretary, who is now the Leader of the Opposition, being concerned about the issues surrounding bad character, referred the matter to the Law Commission, which spent about four years taking evidence, discussing the issue and trying to come up with a satisfactory outcome that could codify the rules on admissibility of previous convictions and bad character. Having done that, it could try to ensure that a marked reluctance by judges, which is widely accepted,
    to admit such evidence—because of the absence of guidelines and the fear that it would be overturned on appeal if they did—might be alleviated to an extent and that more of this evidence could come in when it was relevant and helpful to achieving justice. That is why the Law Commission came up with its report. Having done so, it even came up with a model Bill that could be presented to the House and turned into law.
    Those in the other place were concerned because the Government had departed radically from the Law Commission proposals. Above all, as the Minister has admitted, that was because the Law Commission always envisaged that the basic rule would normally be that such evidence is excluded unless there is a good reason to include it. The Government's view, for reasons that I have never found satisfactory, is that it should be included unless its exclusion can be justified. That is a very important difference, which, as I tried to take up with the Minister earlier, is nonsense. One has only to consider that that category of evidence is irrelevant unless it has a connection to recognise that saying that it should normally be included turns the whole argument on its head.
    Mr. Hogg: Under clause 93(3), the evidence will be admitted unless the defendant can show that
    "the admission of the evidence would have such an adverse effect on the fairness".
    Once statute provides for the admission of this evidence, however, it is difficult to see how it can ever be struck out under that subsection.
    Mr. Grieve: My right hon. and learned Friend is right that it is put in a statutory form, although there is a caveat that enables a judge to exclude it in the interests of fairness. To return to my point, why should it be put down in statutory form that some forms of evidence should be admitted when the basic rule, and the obvious

    711
    common-sense approach, is that it will be largely irrelevant to the matter at issue? It is on that matter that the Government and those in another place have drifted apart. That is why the Bill was amended to include the Law Commission's proposals and nothing but the Law Commission's proposals. If the Minister wants my opinion as to which is the better approach, I will say now, and over and over again, that the Law Commission proposals are infinitely superior to what the Government have done. I also think that they will achieve the Government's desired objective, which is to ensure that, where relevant, evidence is included.
    The Law Commission's report is excellent, and the Government's approach is worrying because it seems to me that they have pushed much further than the Law Commission ever envisaged in setting out a principle that a person's past character and previous convictions should automatically go before a court. The distortion to the system of justice that that threatens to introduce, and the risks of miscarriage that are attendant on it, are very serious.
    Mr. Gamier: It is much more serious than we might initially think. I am delighted that the Government are no longer suggesting that they should hold on to clause 90(1)(b), which refers to behaviour that
    "might be viewed with disapproval by a reasonable person",
    which, for goodness' sake, could mean anything. They now think that they will improve matters with what is on page 3083 of the amendment paper:
    "leave out from beginning to 'evidence' in line 2 … and insert: 'References in this Chapter to evidence of a person's bad character' are to evidence of, or of a disposition towards, misconduct on his part, other than'".
    "Misconduct" could be well short of criminal conduct, yet the Government think that that is an improvement on what the other place has removed. I find that extremely worrying, and I wish that the Government would come clean and admit that they want to drive a coach and horses through this aspect of the criminal law and produce very strange results.
    Mr. Grieve: The Minister will have to answer as to what the Government's intentions are. Certainly, however, the practical consequences of the Government's intentions are an unhappy state of affairs.
    To move on, we have always indicated to the Government that we accepted the principle of the Law Commission's recommendations and we were therefore willing to engage in a dialogue with the Government to try to resolve this matter. We have been trying to do that at frequent intervals. We have been helped by some Labour Back Benchers who have highlighted some areas that remain of great concern. I shall touch on two of them. First, at clause 93(1)(d), the dreadful entry remains:
    "In criminal proceedings evidence of the defendant's bad character is admissible if, but only if … it is evidence of the defendant's conviction for an offence of the same description, or of the same category, as the one with which he is charged".
    That is a terrible clause. To say that bad character should be adduced from that in relation to the current trial has been a constant source of anxiety, unless it is
    712
    important explanatory evidence, but in that instance it is kept totally separate from important explanatory evidence.
    Mr. Hogg: It is worse than that, because there is no requirement that the previous offence should be in any way relevant or probative of the offence with which the defendant is charged at the relevant trial.
    Mr. Grieve: Yes, indeed—perhaps I expressed myself badly. That is why I returned to the point about it not even having to be important explanatory evidence—important evidence of similar fact, which already happens, or something exceptional that provided a proper link between the previous convictions and the current matter. That is a serious issue.
    Mr. Gamier: My hon. Friend is being very tolerant. Was it suggested in Committee or during other deliberations on the clause that no one should be convicted only on evidence of a previous conviction?
    6.30 pm
    Mr. Grieve: Yes, indeed; the Government told us that that would not happen, but it remains an area of anxiety.
    I return to clause 96—"'Matter in issue between the defendant and the prosecution'". Subsection (1) says:
    "For the purposes of section 93(1)(e)"—
    that is the bit that I read to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier)—
    "the matters in issue between the defendant and the prosecution include … the question whether the defendant has a propensity to commit offences of the kind with which he is charged, except where his having such a propensity makes it no more likely that he is guilty of the offence".
    That is a completely circular argument. How can a matter in issue between the defendant and the prosecution, when considering whether a person would burgle a house, be whether the person has a propensity to commit offences of that kind—unless, and this is where my colleagues are right, we are reaching a point at which the Government will tell us that people may be convicted in the future on the basis of propensity alone?
    We have been trying to sort out these problems. I noted that when the matter came up in the other place on 4 November, Baroness Scotland of Asthal said:
    "We recognise that concerns have been expressed both here and in another place about how the clause operates. We are therefore prepared to look further at the issue to see whether we might achieve our aims in another more acceptable way."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 4 November 2003; Vol. 654, c. 739.]
    I was waiting for the Government amendments to come through last night and I expected a radical approach and a response to what the hon. and learned Member for Redcar (Vera Baird) had said about the dreadful clause 93(1)(d). There was silence on that. I accept that the Government have addressed a few issues, with what I accept are more than minor changes, but the real nub of the concerns of one hon. Member after another since the earliest stage of the Bill has not been touched on.
    I urge the Government to accept the Law Commission's proposals and find out how they work. If they do not work as the Government intend, because there is a continuing problem that evidence that should

    713
    be admitted is not admitted, they can say, "Look, we need to do some more here." We are all sensible people who have a pragmatic approach, so I am sure that they would get a sensible response. Failing that, will the Minister and the Government please take on board representations that have been made on these important matters, if they really intend to restore the clauses in such a way? The situation remains unsatisfactory, so I tell the Minister with some regret, because I had hoped that we could resolve the problem sensibly, that we shall vote against the Government's motion to disagree to Lords amendment No. 114.
    Mr. Kidney: I shall speak briefly about bad character. Evidence of bad character has been admissible under Acts of Parliament for more than 100 years. As the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) said, the Law Commission became involved because the application of previous statute law was unsatisfactory from case to case. There is certainly a good argument for reform. We are faced with a choice between the Government's reform and that of the Law Commission, which the hon. Gentleman strongly advocated, as I have done before and shall do today.
    My hon. Friend the Minister announced three welcome alterations to the system. First, he announced greater caution when dealing with convictions of juveniles, which is very welcome. Secondly, he gave us the definition of bad character. The hon. Member for Beaconsfield said that the definition was unsatisfactory, but in fairness, the Law Commission had equally great difficulty finding an acceptable definition. I do not think that everyone would dance in the streets about its definition either, but people are prepared to support it. The third announcement was that the Government will require a prosecution intending to admit evidence of bad character to give notice so that a defendant may object and ask the judge to rule that such evidence should not be admitted. I have not seen the text of the amendment that will implement that, but I accept what he said.
    Eight categories of evidence were admissible as evidence of bad character in the original clause 93, which the Government wish to restore to the Bill. However, the judge has the power to exclude the evidence on the defendant's objection for only three categories, so no such power applies to five categories. Two of those five categories would be admissible only with the defendant's agreement—if all parties agreed to the evidence being admissible, or if the defendant adduced the evidence. Therefore, there is no power for a defendant to stop evidence being admitted, no matter how unjust his or her legal representatives think that is, under three categories.
    That brings us to the great divide on whether the basic rule should be either that evidence is admissible unless there is a reason to object to it, or that it is admissible only if the judge first gives leave for it. The Law Commission is mostly in the second camp, although, to correct the hon. Member for Beaconsfield slightly, it says that there are core issues for which evidence should be admissible without leave.
    Mr. Hogg: I support what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Will he make the point, as did my hon. Friend
    714
    the Member for Beaconsfield, that a draft Bill was attached to the Law Commission's report? The draft Bill was a form of pre-statutory consultation, and its provisions, which form the basis of the Lords amendment, received a wide welcome in the profession.
    Mr. Kidney: I am happy to agree that there was wide consultation on the draft Bill and that many positive responses were made to it. That is one reason why I think that it would be acceptable legislation.
    I prefer the Law Commission's formulation, because a judge should give leave for the admission of such evidence in circumstances outside the core situations to ensure that there is a fair trial and a link between bad character and the probative value of the case. The Bill provides for more pre-trial management of a case, such as the defence's requirement to provide more disclosure at an earlier stage, so a judge will intervene at early stages to ensure that evidence is in order. It is simple and convenient to sort out such issues before a trial to allow it to proceed smoothly, so the Law Commission's formulation is the more acceptable of the two.
    Mr. Heath: The subject of the group of amendments is extremely important and has been one of the principal areas of contention during consideration of the Bill. However, that should not have happened, because if the Government had been more conciliatory and had approached the subject more constructively from the start, we could have secured agreement among all parties that there is a need for codification and reform of the present arrangements on bad character because they do not work well—that is common ground among us. We could have reached a satisfactory conclusion for all at an early stage. It is sad that the issue has been a major barrier between the Government and not only the Opposition in the House and the other place but other voices outside the House, because it was entirely unnecessary.
    I do not want to repeat what the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) has said about hearsay evidence. We all treat hearsay evidence and its admissibility with much caution because of the inherent dangers of a witness giving a report of what someone else said to them as evidence in a court of law. The problems with that are manifest. There is no way of determining satisfactorily in court that a person said what a witness reported had been said or whether what was reported to have been said was based on truth. Although hearsay evidence can be valuable in some cases, it must be treated with caution.
    I agree with the hon. Member for Beaconsfield that the Government's proposals are better than those that we have considered before, but I still have worries, which were amply expressed by the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Gamier). I remain to be convinced that the Government have proposed a watertight solution, but it is clear that movement has been made in the direction of the arguments that we put in Committee and on Report and that my noble Friend Lord Thomas of Gresford made in another place. I am content to leave things at that and to see how the measure works in practice. I am clear in my mind, however, that we must monitor it carefully and may have to return to it if the safeguards prove insufficient.

    715
    On the more serious issue of bad character evidence, Ministers need to do a better job of persuading us that their judgment is to be preferred to that of the Law Commission, which spent four years looking carefully at the issue, took a great deal of evidence and reasoned its conclusions in a way that satisfied most people who have a professional interest. Many of us think that its proposals were satisfactory for dealing with the current state of the law. For the Minister simply to assert that his approach is better is unlikely to win many friends in this House who are not already persuaded.
    It is clear throughout the Law Commission's report that it took great care to consider the result of its proposals. It said:
    "If we had taken the approach of recommending that previous convictions should, as a rule, be presented to the fact-finders, however marginally relevant they might be and regardless of how prejudicial they might be, or, conversely, of recommending that they should never be adduced save where it would be an affront to common sense to exclude them, then we might have been able to answer such a question"—
    whether it would increase the number of convictions—
    "with confidence."
    It went on:
    "In our view we would simply have been mistaken to take either of these approaches. Their apparent attractive simplicity ignores the complexity and variety of factual situations to which they would have to apply."
    That is evidence of the balanced view that the Law Commission took in making its proposals.
    Our argument is not complex. The basic premise in British law is of a presumption of innocence. A person on trial for a specific crime should be judged on the basis of the evidence that pertains to that crime, not to previous circumstances, which are irrelevant. That is why we were cautious at an early stage about the definition of bad character. It is clear that the earlier definition was unacceptable. We could all think of people whom many reasonable people might view with disapproval but who do not have a higher propensity to commit criminal offences. The new definition of misconduct is also lax, which worries me.
    The big issue relates to the exclusionary approach, favoured by the Law Commission, or the inclusionary approach, favoured by the Government. We differ on how to achieve a result that we share as a common objective. That is a foolish position to be in at this late stage of a protracted and complicated Bill. If we share the same objective, the Law Commission has provided us with an objective way of achieving it. In that case, why on earth are Ministers holding out for their own interpretation of the best way forward? They can adduce no particular evidence of superiority for that approach, which poses clear dangers as identified by the Law Commission in its evidence.
    The Law Commission states in paragraph 6.65 of its report:
    "Not all evidence of bad character is relevant to the issue of guilt. The admission of irrelevant bad character evidence might not matter if it were not prejudicial; but often it is. It can lead to a person being convicted on inadequate evidence, or where the fact-finders are not in fact sure that the charge has been made out. Therefore, bad character evidence which is not relevant should in our view be excluded as a matter of course, not merely as a matter of discretion."
    716
    We agree with that approach, as do many people outside the House. The Minister has amendments from another place that are directly in line with the draft legislation. As I said, we are in the interesting position of having draft legislation prepared by the Law Commission. He wants to remove its recommendations and replace them with a much less satisfactory and less supported idea of the appropriate solution. It is not acceptable.
    6.45 pm
    Mr. Hogg: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if we were to rely on the Law Commission's language contained in the passage that he just read out, it would enable a defendant who faces evidence of previous convictions to contend that his trial cannot be fair? That brings into play article 6 considerations of human rights legislation.
    Mr. Heath: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is much more expert in such matters than I am. I accept his contention that the sentiment behind the language could form the basis of a submission under human rights legislation. I have no way of knowing whether the words of the Law Commission's report would be held to be relevant, but the sentiment expressed is pertinent to the debate. I suspect it will not be long before such a matter is challenged in the courts. We would all prefer to avoid that, which we can do if we have the bedrock of a group of proposals from the Law Commission on which we can depend. That is why the Liberal Democrats support the opinion of the other place and will continue to reject the Minister's view unless he provides better arguments for what he proposes.
    Mr. Eric Forth: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Given the Government's ridiculous and vicious timetabling of this part of our considerations, do you share my concern that we will almost certainly not reach proper consideration of Lords amendment No. 137, which I characterise as the Bishop of Chester provision, dealing as it does with controversial and sensitive matters? A large number of Christian folk are worried about the measure's implications. Can anything be done at this stage under your good offices, Mr. Speaker, to give us a chance at least to hear what the Minister has to say about the provision so that we can find out what is in the Government's mind and what they intend to do? The issue is sensitive and contemporary. I just hope that something can be done even at this late stage to allow us to deal with it properly.
    Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman knows that I serve the House. It has decided on a programme motion and I am bound by its terms.
    Vera Baird: In the unhappy tussle between the Law Commission's proposals and the current proposals in the Bill, there is excellent room for compromise. Is it really critical whether the presumption of bad character is all admissible or all inadmissible so long as it is all within the ambit of clause 93(3), which allows the judge to exercise a decision on whether evidence is admitted or not? In particular, now that the Minister has said that there will be notice of every application to admit previous bad character, everyone has ample

    717
    opportunity to prepare a case to argue that even if the bad character falls under the categories set out in 93(1)(a) to (h), none the less it should be excluded or included according to subsection (3). It does not matter which way around it is. All it is necessary to do—the
    Government give nothing away by doing it—is to allow the judge to exercise a decision over paragraphs (c) and (g).
    Mr. Hogg: There may be merit in that approach, but surely it is the business of Parliament to set out the criteria that will enable the judge to determine the question of fairness.
    Vera Baird: I appreciate the point but I believe that the judge would simply make up his mind about any application under clause 93(3). There would be no burden of proof either way; the judge would decide either that the evidence should be admitted or that it was unfair and should be excluded. That has everything to commend it as a compromise course that gives nothing away. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State are at pains to exhort us to trust the judges, not least to try issues of fact instead of juries. Why cannot they simply trust the judges in the case we are considering and allow them to make the decision about every application?
    Mr. Gamier: The hon. and learned Lady knows that the relevant section of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984—it may be section 74—gives the judge discretion to exclude evidence. Has she applied her mind to the way in which the Bill will sit with that power? We appear to have two conflicting measures that deal with inclusion or exclusion of evidence, and the Government may not have tackled the matter. Can she help me?
    Vera Baird: I believe that the hon. and learned Gentleman is thinking of section 78 of PACE, which is couched in similar terms to clause 93(3). If its criteria add anything to the test in section 78, it would be on top of the test. Section 78 applies across the board to all sorts of evidence and cannot be excluded by another provision.
    Let me deal briefly with paragraph (d) of clause 93(1), because it is the nub of the issue. It allows evidence of previous convictions to be admitted simply because they are there. What is the provision for? If the convictions are probative—if they prove or tend to prove Something—they would be admitted under paragraph (f). If they are even slightly relevant to the case, they would be admitted under paragraph (e). What, therefore, is the purpose of paragraph (d)? It can only be to include them even though they are irrelevant and do not prove anything. That is unfair. I do not understand why the Government want to be in a position to do that.
    How will the discretion be exercised? Opposition Members asked that question. Evidence that can currently be included under paragraph (d) is subject to the discretion. Clause 93(1) provides that evidence is admissible, and under paragraph (d) it is admissible simply because it exists. The court has to decide whether to exercise its discretion to exclude it if it is unfair, but it is always unfair to admit irrelevant and non-probative
    718
    previous convictions. How will the judge exercise his discretion? He will have to say to himself, "Parliament says that it is admissible but it's obviously unfair so I must exclude what Parliament has said in statute must be included." That does not hold together. The paragraph is unnecessary. It is also bad, dangerous and pointless, and I urge Ministers to reconsider it.
    Mr. Hogg: I agree with the analysis of the hon. and learned Member for Redcar (Vera Baird). Her points are correct. The clause already provides for admitting probative and relevant evidence. Paragraph (d) will have a simple effect: in cases where there are previous convictions, they will be admitted. Like her, I cannot understand how the trial judge can exclude something that Parliament has expressly authorised.
    The effect will be twofold. First, many miscarriages of justice will occur because of the previous convictions. The second point is slightly different but the consequence is much the same: the police will arrest and charge many people simply because they know of similar previous offences. That will lead to considerable injustice. I suspect that the courts will eventually decide that the paragraph offends against article 6 of the European convention on human rights because it prevents an individual defendant from receiving a fair trial on the basis of the evidence for the single offence with which he is charged.
    We have a choice between the Law Commission's proposals, which are incorporated substantially in the Lords amendments, and the Government's. The House should clearly prefer the Law Commission's proposals. They were the subject of considerable consultation and of a draft Bill, which was published and examined at great length. Many noble Lords, who know much about the subject, voted authoritatively for the proposals. I commend them to hon. Members. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Gamier) is anxious to speak and I shall therefore sit down to enable him to do so.
    Mr. Gamier: I have a suspicion that anything I say may undo what my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) and the hon. and learned Member for Redcar (Vera Baird) said. I could not agree more with their comments and I hope that the Government take them on board. Their points are self-evidently good and should have been accepted earlier.
    There are two simple points about bad character evidence. It is said, first, that it suggests that the person is likely to have committed the crime with which he is currently charged, and secondly, that it tends to undermine his credit. I have never been convinced by either of the arguments, although I have ritualistically had to recite them when summing up evidence to juries. However, I am more dismayed by the Government's approach to bad character in the Bill. Nobody of sound mind could believe that the original drafting of clause 91, which dealt with behaviour that would be viewed with disapproval by a reasonable person, was sensible. Despite having the advantage of the advice of the other place and the Law Commission report, the Government devised an amendment that refers to "misconduct" on the part of the person who is alleged to have a bad character.

    719
    Misconduct means nothing in criminal legislation. Until the Government define it more seriously, the relevant part of the Bill, if not others, will be treated with great scepticism and, on my part, much contempt. I urge them to apply their mind to the matter with greater seriousness.
    Paul Goggins:I am grateful for the welcome that the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) gave to some of the movement that has happened through scrutiny in both Houses. During his remarks, there was an interesting discussion about the flexibility that interests of justice discretion provided. I was interested in his comments. Of course, safeguards are provided, but it is ultimately for the court to decide whether evidence is admissible. I believe that it is better to know about evidence that may be admissible and decide to exclude it than not to know about the existence of possibly relevant evidence.
    We have debated at length the difference between the inclusive and exclusive approach to the matter. For most people outside the justice system, the difference between evidence that "is admissible if" and evidence that is "not admissible unless" is perhaps a rather fine point. However, it certainly does not mean that evidence is automatically included. Indeed, as I said to my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) there are safeguards in place, and the defence can argue that certain evidence is irrelevant and could be more prejudicial than probative. It is for the court to decide.
    7 pm
    I do not agree with the view of the hon. Member for Beaconsfield that the inclusive approach tends to distort. It is important that we should send out a message from the House in our debates on the Bill that we want to encourage the admission of evidence that could be admitted even now, but sadly, all too often is not. There has been a great deal of debate on clause 93(1)(d), and that has continued here this evening. I return again to the safeguards that are in place, which I have mentioned on previous occasions. I would say to the hon. Member for Beaconsfield that there would be no conviction solely on the basis of bad character. It would be open for the defence to argue that evidence was more prejudicial than probative.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney) asked which amendments I was referring to earlier. It was amendments (a) to (e) to Lords amendment No. 29—
    It being four and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings, MR. SPEAKER proceeded to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].
    The House divided: Ayes 345, Noes 201.
    Division No. 376] [7:01 pm

    AYES

    Abbott, Ms Diane

    Cooper, Yvette

    Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

    Cousins, Jim

    Ainger, Nick

    Cranston, Ross

    Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

    Crausby, David

    Alexander, Douglas

    Cruddas, Jon

    Allen, Graham

    Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

    Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

    Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

    Anderson, Janet (Rossendale &

    Cummings, John

    Darwen)

    Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack

    Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

    (Copeland)

    Atherton, Ms Candy

    Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

    Atkins, Charlotte

    Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

    Austin, John

    Darling, rh Alistair

    Bailey, Adrian

    Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

    Banks, Tony

    David, Wayne

    Barnes, Harry

    Davidson, Ian

    Barron, rh Kevin

    Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

    Battle, John

    Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

    Bayley, Hugh

    Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

    Beard, Nigel

    Dean, Mrs Janet

    Beckett, rh Margaret

    Denham, rh John

    Begg, Miss Anne

    Dismore, Andrew

    Bell, Stuart

    Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

    Benn, rh Hilary

    Dobson, rh Frank

    Bennett, Andrew

    Donohoe, Brian H.

    Benton, Joe (Bootle)

    Doran, Frank

    Berry, Roger

    Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

    Best, Harold

    Drew, David (Stroud)

    Betts, Clive

    Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

    Blackman, Liz

    Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

    Blears, Ms Hazel

    Edwards, Huw

    Blizzard, Bob

    Efford, Clive

    Blunkett, rh David

    Ellman, Mrs Louise

    Boateng, rh Paul

    Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

    , David

    Farrelly, Paul

    Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

    Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

    Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

    Fisher, Mark

    Bradshaw, Ben

    Fitzpatrick, Jim

    Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E

    Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

    Wallsend)

    Flint, Caroline

    Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

    Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

    Browne, Desmond

    Follett, Barbara

    Bryant, Chris

    Foster, rh Derek

    Buck, Ms Karen

    Foster, Michael (Worcester)

    Burden, Richard

    Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings

    Burgon, Colin

    & Rye)

    Byers, rh Stephen

    Francis, Dr. Hywel

    Cairns, David

    Gapes, Mike (IlfordS)

    Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

    Gardiner, Barry
    Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

    George, rh Bruce (WalsallS)

    Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

    Gerrard, Neil

    Caplin, Ivor

    Gilroy, Linda

    Casale, Roger

    Godsiff, Roger

    Caton, Martin

    Goggins, Paul

    Challen, Colin

    Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

    Chapman, Ben (WirralS)

    Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

    Chaytor, David

    Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

    Clapham, Michael

    Grogan, John

    Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

    Hain, rh Peter

    Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh

    Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

    Pentlands)

    Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

    Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

    Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

    Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

    Hanson, David

    Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge &

    Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

    Chryston)

    Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil &

    Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

    Rhymney)

    Clelland, David

    Healey, John

    Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

    Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

    Coffey, Ms Ann

    Hendrick, Mark

    Cohen, Harry

    Hepburn, Stephen

    Coleman, Iain

    Heppell, John

    Colman, Tony

    Hesford, Stephen

    Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)

    Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia

    721

    Heyes, David

    Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

    Hill, Keith (Streatham)

    Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

    Hodge, Margaret

    Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

    Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

    Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

    Hoon, rh Geoffrey

    Hope, Phil (Corby)

    Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

    Hopkins, Kelvin

    Martlew, Eric

    Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

    Merron, Gillian

    Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

    Michael, rh Alun

    Milburn, rh Alan

    Howells, Dr. Kim

    Miliband, David

    Hoyle, Lindsay

    Miller, Andrew

    Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)

    Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

    Moffatt, Laura

    Humble, Mrs Joan

    Mole, Chris

    Hutton, rh John

    Morgan, Julie

    Ingram, rh Adam

    Morley, Elliot

    Irranca-Davies, Huw

    Morris, rh Estelle

    Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

    Mountford, Kali

    Jamieson, David

    Mudie, George

    Jenkins, Brian

    Mullin, Chris

    Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

    Munn, Ms Meg

    Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

    Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

    Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

    Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

    Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)

    Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

    Naysmith, Dr. Doug

    Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

    Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

    Jowell, rh Tessa

    O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

    Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

    Olner, Bill

    Keen, Alan (Feltham)

    O'Neill, Martin

    Keen, Ann (Brentford)

    Organ, Diana

    Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

    Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

    Kemp, Fraser

    Owen, Albert

    Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

    Palmer, Dr. Nick

    Khabra, Piara S.

    Pearson, Ian

    Kidney, David

    Perham, Linda

    Kilfoyle, Peter

    Picking, Anne

    King, Andy (Rugby)

    Pickthall, Colin

    King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

    Pike, Peter (Burnley)

    Plaskitt, James

    Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

    Pollard, Kerry

    Kumar, Dr. Ashok

    Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

    Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

    Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

    Lammy, David

    Pound, Stephen

    Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

    Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

    Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

    Lazarowicz, Mark

    Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

    Lepper, David

    Primarolo, rh Dawn

    Leslie, Christopher

    Prosser, Gwyn

    Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

    Purchase, Ken

    Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

    Purnell, James

    Liddell, rh Mrs Helen

    Quin, rh Joyce

    Linton, Martin

    Quinn, Lawrie

    Love, Andrew

    Rammell, Bill

    Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

    Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

    Luke, lain (Dundee E)

    Raynsford, rh Nick

    Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

    Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

    McAvoy, Thomas

    McCabe, Stephen

    Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

    McCartney, rh Ian

    McDonagh, Siobhain

    Roche, Mrs Barbara

    MacDonald, Calum

    Rooney, Terry

    MacDougall, John

    Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

    McFall, John

    Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

    McGuire, Mrs Anne

    Ruane, Chris

    McIsaac, Shona

    Ruddock, Joan

    McKechin, Ann

    Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

    Mackinlay, Andrew

    McNulty, Tony

    Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

    MacShane, Denis

    Salter, Martin

    Mactaggart, Fiona

    Sarwar, Mohammad

    McWilliam, John

    Savidge, Malcolm

    Mahmood, Khalid

    Sawford, Phil

    Mahon, Mrs Alice

    Sedgemore, Brian

    Mallaber, Judy

    Shaw, Jonathan

    Mandelson, rh Peter

    Sheerman, Barry

    722

    Sheridan, Jim

    Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

    Shipley, Ms Debra

    Turner, Neil (Wigan)

    Short, rh Clare

    Twigg, Derek (Halton)

    Singh, Marsha

    Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

    Skinner, Dennis

    Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

    Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)

    Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)

    Smith, Angela (Basildon)

    Vis, Dr. Rudi

    Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

    Walley, Ms Joan

    Smith, John (Glamorgan)

    Ward, Claire

    Soley, Clive

    Wareing, Robert N.

    Southworth, Helen

    Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

    Spellar, rh John

    Watts, David

    Squire, Rachel

    White, Brian

    Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

    Whitehead, Dr. Alan

    Steinberg, Gerry

    Wicks, Malcolm

    Stevenson, George

    Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

    Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)

    Williams, Betty (Conwy)

    Wills, Michael

    Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

    Winnick, David

    Stoate, Dr. Howard

    Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

    Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

    Stringer, Graham

    Wood, Mike (Batley)

    Stuart, Ms Gisela

    Woodward, Shaun

    Sutcliffe, Gerry

    Woolas, Phil

    Tami, Mark (Alyn)

    Worthington, Tony

    Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

    Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)

    Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

    Taylor, David (NW Leics)

    Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

    Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

    Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

    Wright, David (Telford)

    Timms, Stephen

    Wright, Tony (Cannock)

    Tipping, Paddy

    Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

    Tellers for the Ayes:

    Trickett, Jon

    Vernon Coaker and

    Truswell, Paul

    Margaret Moran

    NOES

    Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

    Chidgey, David

    Allan, Richard

    Chope, Christopher

    Amess, David

    Clappison, James

    Ancram, rh Michael

    Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

    Arbuthnot, rh James

    Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

    Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

    Collins, Tim

    Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

    Corbyn, Jeremy

    Bacon, Richard

    Cormack, Sir Patrick

    Baker, Norman

    Cotter, Brian

    Barker, Gregory

    Curry, rh David

    Baron, John (Billericay)

    Davey, Edward (Kingston)

    Barrett, John

    Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)

    Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)

    Beith, rh A. J.

    Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

    Bellingham, Henry

    Bercow, John

    Djanogly, Jonathan

    Blunt, Crispin

    Doughty, Sue

    Boswell, Tim

    Duncan, Peter (Galloway)

    Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

    Evans, Nigel

    Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey)

    Fabricant, Michael

    Fallon, Michael

    Brady, Graham

    Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)

    Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

    Brazier, Julian

    Flight, Howard

    Breed, Colin

    Flook, Adrian

    Brooke, Mrs Annette L

    Forth, rh Eric

    Bruce, Malcolm

    Foster, Don (Bath)

    Burnett, John

    Fox, Dr. Liam

    Burns, Simon

    Francois, Mark

    Burstow, Paul

    Gale, Roger (N Thanet)

    Burt, Alistair

    Garnier, Edward

    Butterfill, John

    Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

    Cable, Dr. Vincent

    Gidley, Sandra

    Calton, Mrs Patsy

    Goodman, Paul

    Cameron, David

    Gray, James (N Wilts)

    Carmichael, Alistair

    Grayling, Chris

    Cash, William

    Green, Damian (Ashford)

    Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

    Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

    Greenway, John

    723

    Grieve, Dominic

    Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

    Gummer, rh John

    Hammond, Philip

    Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

    Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)

    Pugh, Dr. John

    Randall, John

    Harvey, Nick

    Redwood, rh John

    Hawkins, Nick

    Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)

    Hayes, John (S Holland)

    Rendel, David

    Heald, Oliver

    Robathan, Andrew

    Heath, David

    Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)

    Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

    Hendry, Charles

    Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

    Hermon, Lady

    Roe, Mrs Marion

    Hoban, Mark (Fareham)

    Rosindell, Andrew

    Hogg, rh Douglas

    Russell, Bob (Colchester)

    Holmes, Paul

    Sanders, Adrian

    Horam, John (Orpington)

    Sayeed, Jonathan

    Howard, rh Michael

    Selous, Andrew

    Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

    Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian

    Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

    Shepherd, Richard

    Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

    Simmonds, Mark

    Jack, rh Michael

    Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

    Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

    Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

    Soames, Nicholas

    Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

    Spelman, Mrs Caroline

    Jenkin, Bernard

    Spicer, Sir Michael

    Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

    Spring, Richard

    Keetch, Paul

    Stanley, rh Sir John

    Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)

    Steen, Anthony

    Streeter, Gary

    Key, Robert (Salisbury)

    Stunell, Andrew

    Kirkbride, Miss Julie

    Syms, Robert

    Kirkwood, Sir Archy

    Tapsell, Sir Peter

    Laing, Mrs Eleanor

    Taylor, Ian (Esher)

    Lait, Mrs Jacqui

    Taylor, John (Solihull)

    Lamb, Norman

    Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

    Lansley, Andrew

    Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

    Laws, David (Yeovil)

    Taylor, Sir Teddy

    Letwin, rh Oliver

    Teather, Sarah

    Liddell-Grainger, Ian

    Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

    Lidington, David

    Thurso, John

    Lilley, rh Peter

    Tonge, Dr. Jenny

    Llwyd, Elfyn

    Tredinnick, David

    Loughton, Tim

    Trend, Michael

    Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

    Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

    McIntosh, Miss Anne

    Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

    Mackay, rh Andrew

    Tyrie, Andrew

    Maclean, rh David

    Viggers, Peter

    McLoughlin, Patrick

    Walter, Robert

    Malins, Humfrey

    Waterson, Nigel

    Maples, John

    Webb, Steve (Northavon)

    Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)

    Whittingdale, John

    Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

    Maude, rh Francis

    Wiggin, Bill

    Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

    Wilkinson, John

    May, Mrs Theresa

    Willetts, David

    Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

    Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

    Williams, Roger (Brecon)

    Moore, Michael

    Willis, Phil

    Moss, Malcolm

    Wilshire, David

    Murrison, Dr. Andrew

    Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

    Oaten, Mark (Winchester)

    Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)

    O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

    Öpik, Lembit

    Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

    Osborne, George (Tatton)

    Young, rh Sir George

    Ottaway, Richard

    Younger-Ross, Richard

    Page, Richard

    Paice, James

    Tellers for the Noes:

    Paterson, Owen

    Angela Watkinson and

    Pickles, Eric

    Sir Robert Smith

    Question accordingly aereed to.
    MR. SPEAKER then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of business to be concluded at that hour, pursuant to Order [this day].
    Lords amendment No. 115 disagreed to.
    Government amendment (a) to words restored agreed to.
    Lords amendments Nos. 116 to 124 disagreed to.
    Government amendment (a) to words restored by Lords amendment No. 124 agreed to.
    Lords amendments Nos. 125 and 126 disagreed to.
    Government amendment (a) to words restored by Lords amendment No. 126 agreed to.
    Lords amendments Nos. 127 to 129 disagreed to.
    Government amendments (a) to (e) to words restored by Lords amendment No. 129 agreed to.
    Lords amendment No. 130 disagreed to.
    Government amendments (a) to (d) to words restored by Lords amendment No. 130 agreed to.
    Lords amendments Nos. 131 and 132 disagreed to.
    Government amendment (a) to words restored agreed to.
    Lords amendments Nos. 133 to 137 agreed to.

    Clause 146

      GENERAL LIMIT ON MAGISTRATES' COURT'S POWER TO IMPOSE IMPRISONMENT
      Lords amendment: No. 138.
      Paul Goggins: I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
      Mr. Speaker: With this it will be convenient to take the following: Lords amendment No. 139 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 167 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 173 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; and Lords amendment No. 235 and the Government motion to disagree thereto.
      Paul Goggins: When it left this House the Bill did not impose any restrictions on the timing of the increase in magistrates' sentencing powers, which allowed a flexible approach to implementation. The Lords have taken away that flexibility. Lords amendments Nos. 138 and 139 would prevent the increase of magistrates' sentencing powers from coming into effect before the custody-plus provisions, thus blocking the transfer of business from the Crown court to the magistrates courts.
      Because custody-plus will replace current sentences of up to 12 months, it will enable magistrates to deal with a substantial number of cases in which they would currently refuse jurisdiction. It is generally agreed that that would be a positive move. Dealing with such cases in the magistrates court rather than the Crown court would constitute a more efficient use of resources, and would reduce delays, as well as benefiting victims and witnesses.
      The Government are committed to implementing custody-plus as soon as possible, but before we do so we will have to be sure that the National Probation Service has the capacity to fulfil the supervisory function that forms an important part of this disposal so that the new sentence can have the anticipated effect on prisoners' rehabilitation and resettlement. That means that the

      725
      new sentences should not be implemented immediately. We do not, however, see why the greater sentencing powers should be curtailed, given the immediate benefits to the administration of justice.
      Members of the other House argued that increasing magistrates' sentencing powers in advance of custody-plus would sharply increase the severity of custodial sentences passed in magistrates courts. Let me reassure the House that there is no conclusive evidence to support that theory. Any increase in powers would be accompanied by a thorough training programme to ensure that magistrates used their new powers appropriately. On the basis of that evidence, I urge the House to reject the amendment.
      Let me now deal with Lords amendment No. 167. As originally drafted, the Bill provided for an indeterminate sentence to be passed if the offender was convicted of a trigger offence carrying a maximum penalty of 10 years or more, and if the court believed that
      "there was a significant risk to members of the public of serious harm occasioned by the commission by him of further specified offences".
      As we have said in both Houses, the purpose of the test is to establish whether an offender is dangerous. In making that judgment, the court must focus primarily on the degree of risk of harm that any future offending may pose. It was decided in the other place, however, that our definition of dangerousness set too low a threshold, and suggested that the court should believe there was a "substantial" rather than a significant risk. While the definitions may appear similar, I want to persuade the House that in the interests of public safety the original definition is preferable.
      There are two difficulties with the alternative test proposed in the other place. First, it requires the court to find that there is a substantial risk of reoffending, and also that such further offending involves a significant risk of harm to the public. The original test is more flexible, in that the risk of reoffending must be present, but consideration of that risk is part of the overall "dangerousness" assessment that the court will carry out. The second difficulty is that the alternative test requires both a substantial risk of reoffending and a significant risk of harm. We think that that confusion could over-complicate the assessment by unhelpfully using terms that may be difficult for the court to distinguish, when in reality the assessment is a single exercise.
      We fear that the combined effect of these changes will be that certain offenders who pose a significant risk of serious harm to the public may not come within the remit of the definition, because they are not found to pose a substantial risk of reoffending. As a result they will not be eligible for the new sentences for dangerous offenders, and will serve a determinate sentence, release from which is automatic, regardless of the risks that they pose to the public. I urge the House to reject the amendment.
      I now turn to Lords amendment No. 173. As originally drafted, the Bill provided for the automatic release of non-dangerous offenders serving sentences of 12 months or more at the halfway point of their
      726
      sentences. The Lords, however, decided that when the sentence was of four years or more, automatic release could not occur before the offender had served two thirds of his sentence in prison.
      Under the current sentencing provisions, those serving short custodial sentences and those serving longer sentences of four years or more are subject to different release provisions. That is justifiable on grounds of public protection, ensuring that potentially dangerous offenders serving sentences of four years or more can only be released between the halfway and the two-thirds point, subject to thorough risk assessments.
      Of course public protection remains a priority for the Government, and we would not wish to release any dangerous offender automatically when he had served only half a custodial sentence. For that reason offenders who are assessed as dangerous will not be eligible for the new custodial sentence of 12 months or more, but will be subject to one of the new sentences for dangerous offenders or to a discretionary life sentence.
      The introduction of a single simple structure for all custodial sentences of 12 months or more for non-dangerous offenders, with automatic release at the halfway point, will have many benefits. It will make the sentencing framework more transparent and easier for the public to understand, providing more certainty in regard to release dates. It will enable the correctional services to plan the post-release packages much more effectively, and to establish a coherent package of interventions for the entire second half of the sentence. It will also give offenders a longer period under supervision in the community, during which they can address their rehabilitation needs and reduce their propensity to reoffend. I hope that, given those assurances, Members will be persuaded to reject the amendment.
      The Lords have added a new clause to give chief officers of each probation area a duty to establish consultation arrangements with local magistrates court committees and local communities. The Government agree with the sentiment of the amendment and acknowledge the importance of encouraging joint working, but I hope to reassure the House that such a statutory duty is not necessary in the light of existing arrangements.
      Current guidance promotes communication, understanding and mutual confidence between the courts and the probation service, and emphasises that joint working imposes a number of obligations on sentencers and probation staff to achieve those ends. The new local criminal justice boards bring together the criminal justice agencies to work towards meeting the public service agreement targets for narrowing the justice gap and increasing confidence in the criminal justice system. Furthermore, the national probation directorate has agreed with the Magistrates Association to establish a new national consultative group, which will help to give magistrates and other sentencers a clear, strong voice in the development of policy and practice.
      The probation service has also developed closer links with local communities, and the new local probation boards have a more diverse membership and are more responsive to local needs than ever before. The involvement of the probation service in crime and disorder reduction partnerships allows it to tap into the concerns of the local community.

      727
      On the basis of that evidence showing the amount of work already under way to promote joint working, I encourage Members to reject Lords amendment No. 235.
      Mr. Malins: I want to say something about the last two matters raised by the Minister, relating to probation officers' duty to establish a consultation process with courts.
      The Minister, like me, will know from practical experience that probation officers generally have a close relationship with courts. They do in my county of Surrey, anyway. The main problem for the probation service in carrying out its work is funding, and many head probation officers would be ambivalent about whether the measure should be introduced, as it would not affect their daily lives. However, the issue of funding is important, and I shall return to it in a moment.
      7.30 pm
      Let me turn to release halfway or two thirds of the way through a sentence. Our system is rather complicated, and magistrates and judges have to use a particular formula when they sentence someone, saying that the defendant will be released after a certain period on licence, and if they reoffend during licence they will be recalled. However, as the Minister will know, that depends on the length of sentence. In our short debate, I should like to make a simple point. The Minister will agree that the critical issue is not whether someone is released halfway or two thirds of the way through their sentence but whether they are released only when they are fit to be released. Much more importantly, huge emphasis should be placed on the follow-up, which is absolutely essential. Far too many offenders are released from prison without that follow-up, which is critical to reoffending rates, not whether offenders come out after two years or two thirds of a four-year sentence.
      Turning to Lords amendments Nos. 138 and 139, as we know, a new sentencing power for magistrates is introduced in clause 146, and custody-plus is introduced elsewhere in the Bill. The Minister will recall that, in Committee, custody-plus was generally thought to be a sensible development, but their Lordships have hit on the important issue of the order in which the sentencing power and custody-plus are introduced. The Minister will know that I serve as a part-time deputy district judge in stipendiary magistrates courts around London. The average defendant has 10 or 15 previous convictions, often low-level offences, perhaps including eight thefts in the past couple of years. How are they to be sentenced? I am sure that he will accept that clause 146, which provides the power to impose imprisonment for up to 12 months, will result in practice in much longer sentences being passed in magistrates courts. Very often, a district judge or magistrate sentencing somebody who they believe should get seven to 10 months in prison on a guilty plea or conviction will pass a sentence of four months. If, for example, there is a guilty plea, one has to give a discount, so a sentence of four or five months will be the maximum.
      Under the clause, perhaps rightly—although this is not the point of our debate—a magistrate may say that the defendant has a rotten record and give them nine or 10 months, which I am sure will lead to a dramatic
      728
      increase in the prison population. Most custodial sentences are passed in magistrates courts, day after day. At Camberwell Green, for example, sentences totalling 40 or 50 years can be passed in one morning in five different custody courts. Once the extra powers are used, there will be 30 per cent. on top of that total, so there will be a problem, to which the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) alluded in Committee.
      If that proves to be the case, the Minister needs to deal with the worrying issue of prison numbers. Does he think that the provision, once implemented, will have an impact on prison numbers? I believe that it will, and our prisons are currently dangerously overcrowded. Later in the Bill, there is a clause on custody-plus. There is something to be said for custody-plus, which is a relatively short custodial sentence followed by an intense supervision period. Again, a lot of money is involved. Too often, intense supervision is missing, and people come out of prison without follow-up, which is essential if they are to have genuine discipline and find a home and job. Instead, they are simply left alone.
      It is odd to introduce a provision under which magistrates can pass a sentence of up to 12 months before the national roll-out—I do not like the phrase, but the Minister knows what I mean—of custody-plus, which is a big change. I am happy to be corrected, but it is likely that defendants on their fifth, sixth or seventh charge of shoplifting will get a sentence of eight to 10 months. However, in a county where the custody-plus pilot is being rolled out, they would receive a much lower sentence. Their Lordships were right to want to introduce the custody-plus provision first. We should get it working across the country, then introduce the other provision. That view is shared by Opposition parties—we are worried about high prison numbers, and I think that the Government are right.
      In conclusion, Lords amendment No. 167 would change the wording of clause 216. Their Lordships have again got it right. In Committee, we had a debate in February about the correct wording of the provision. Currently, clause 216(1)(b) states that the provision applies where
      "the court is of the opinion that there is a significant risk to members of the public of serious harm occasioned by the commission by him of further specified offences."
      The Minister told me that under the Government proposal a significant risk has to be present. However, if one reads their wording carefully, the provision plainly means that the court will think that any further specified offences committed by the offender will cause a significant risk to members of the public of course. The significant risk to the public of a certain course of action is not set out clearly in the Bill, as the present wording implies that if further offences are committed, there would be a significant risk of serious harm to the public as a result.
      I hope that the Minister and hon. Members understand the fine distinction that I am making. The significant risk of further offending does not have to be present under the provision as drafted, and their Lordships have the wording right. In February, I outlined that argument in Committee, and it has been repeated by their Lordships, who have introduced a much tidier wording.

      729
      To conclude, we shall not force a Division. In some ways, their Lordships have it right. We are concerned about the timing of custody-plus and maximum sentences. The Minister is a good man, so I know that he will focus on my two main pleas. First, the probation service needs to be properly funded to carry out all its work and, secondly, the Government and the rest of us must concentrate on what happens to prisoners when they come out of prison rather than the length of the sentence that they serve.
      Simon Hughes: We have six minutes left, which again shows how frustrating the guillotine is.
      My hon. Friends and I will seek to divide the House on Lords amendments Nos. 138 and 167. If time permitted, we would seek to support Lords amendments Nos. 173 and 235 too, but we have to select, otherwise there would not be any debate on the next set of proposals.
      On the first substantive point, the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Malins) set out the view of the Lords. The Bill has some very good proposals, as the Minister knows, in terms of custody-plus and custody-minus. Put simply, the custody-plus proposal is meant to deal with the fact that, at the moment, if people get sent to prison for less than a year, the Prison Service is not able to do anything useful with them; that is the general view of prison governors and the Prison Service.
      The measure says that the sentence will be in two parts: first, custody, and then rehabilitation and punishment in the community. That is a good proposal but, when my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Mr. Oaten) asked when the Minister expected to implement custody-plus, the Home Secretary said
      "Final decisions … have not been made".—[Official Report, 10 November 2003; Vol. 413, c. 98W.]
      The reality is, as he knows, I know and everyone knows, that the money is not available. Therefore, we are about to allow magistrates courts to have increased maximum sentencing powers, doubling their current sentencing powers. At the same time, we will not be able to implement the proposal on custody-plus.
      Had custody-plus been in operation, the maximum 12-month sentence would have meant three months inside and nine months outside, and that would have been acceptable. Our belief that the magistrates will use those powers—Ministers say they do not believe it—is borne out by all sorts of facts. First, the figures show that magistrates are now twice as likely to send an offender to prison than they were 10 years ago: 13 per cent. of all cases now go to prison from a magistrates court compared with 6 per cent. in 1992, and twice as many people are imprisoned each year for short sentences as were imprisoned 10 years ago. Given that we have the highest prison population ever; given that prisons are hugely overcrowded; given that there are more than 70,000 people in prison; and given that we have more people in prison than any other comparable country in western Europe, we should not be giving that opportunity.
      730
      The second reason, based on the evidence, why the proposal is a bad idea is that there is no argument to show that, as the Minister asserted in the Lords, people are not sentenced more severely as compared with the Crown court. Professor Lee Bridges, whom the Minister respects and who is a widely respected authority, has made it clear that the majority of cases sent by the magistrates courts to the Crown court on the basis that the magistrates think that they do not have sufficient powers to sentence result in the sentence being one that it was within the magistrates' power to give. The magistrates courts often think that they do not have the power to give the appropriate sentence, and that suggests that they will give a higher sentence. Professor Lee Bridges makes the strongest case—I refer colleagues to it. He says that the increase in magistrates' sentencing powers will
      "send entirely the wrong message from the Government to magistrates."
      We fear, as the hon. Member for Woking does, that the proposal will increase the population in prison and increase the average sentence.
      Another proposal is a significant proposal about life sentence prisoners. Basically, the Government have not followed the clear view of the Lord Chief Justice. The Lords sought to limit the circumstances in which people could be given much higher tariffs—the starting points. The Lord Chief Justice—I put it on the record—wrote in a memorandum that he put in the Libraries of both Houses on 16 June that he had given advice on the matter to the Home Secretary, which became a practice note in May 2002, in which he made it clear that the average sentence was of the order of between 12 and 16 years—12 years for the normal case, in practice, for someone who is given a life sentence, and 16 years for the most serious case. What these proposals will do, effectively, is significantly increase the time for which the people on the most serious charges are sent to prison. Again, as colleagues in the House of Lords made clear, this country puts far more of its sentenced prisoners in prison for life than any other comparable country. There were 5,352 prisoners serving life sentences in February 2003, a higher proportion than the whole of western Europe combined.
      7.45 pm
      We are walking into a new sentencing regime that is not justified on the basis of what all the judges have done and what the Home Secretary accepted only a year and a half ago. We should be particularly careful to ensure that we do not go down this road, and that young people—although the Government have made a small concession—do not have such a high minimum sentence.
      The Liberal Democrats believe that it should not be for Parliament to set minimum sentences. That is why we set up the Sentencing Guidelines Council. We believe that advice should be given and respected. We are going down the wrong road if we set minimum sentences here.
      It being five and a quarter hours after the commencement of proceedings, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].
      The House divided: Ayes 336, Noes 50.

      Division No. 377]

      [7:46 pm

      AYES

      Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

      Cooper, Yvette

      Ainger, Nick

      Cousins, Jim

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Cranston, Ross

      Alexander, Douglas

      Cruddas, Jon

      Allen, Graham

      Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

      Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)

      Cummings, John

      Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Atherton, Ms Candy

      Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

      Atkins, Charlotte

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Austin, John

      Darling, rh Alistair

      Bailey, Adrian

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Baird, Vera

      David, Wayne

      Banks, Tony

      Davidson, lan

      Barnes, Harry

      Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

      Barron, rh Kevin

      Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

      Battle, John

      Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

      Bayley, Hugh

      Dawson, Hilton

      Beard, Nigel

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Beckett, rh Margaret

      Denham, rh John

      Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)

      Dismore, Andrew

      Bell, Stuart

      Dobson, rh Frank

      Benn, rh Hilary

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      Bennett, Andrew

      Doran, Frank

      Benton, Joe (Bootle)

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      Berry, Roger

      Drew, David (Stroud)

      Best, Harold

      Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

      Betts, Clive

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Blackman, Liz

      Edwards, Huw

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Efford, Clive

      Blizzard, Bob

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Blunkett, rh David

      Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

      Boateng, rh Paul

      Farrelly, Paul

      Borrow, David

      Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

      Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

      Fisher, Mark

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Bradshaw, Ben

      Flint, Caroline

      Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

      Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

      Follett, Barbara

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Foster, rh Derek

      Browne, Desmond

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      Bryant, Chris

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

      Buck, Ms Karen

      Burden, Richard

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      Burgon, Colin

      Gapes, Mike (llford S)

      Burnham, Andy

      Gardiner, Barry

      Byers, rh Stephen

      George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

      Cairns, David

      Gerrard, Neil

      Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

      Gilroy, Linda

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Godsiff, Roger

      Caplin, Ivor

      Goggins, Paul

      Casale, Roger

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      Caton, Martin

      Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

      Challen, Colin

      Grogan, John

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      Hain, rh Peter

      Chaytor, David

      Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

      Clapham, Michael

      Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

      Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      Hanson, David

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Harman, rh Ms Harriet

      Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

      Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Healey, John

      Clelland, David

      Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

      Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

      Hendrick, Mark

      Coaker, Vernon

      Hepburn, Stephen

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Heppell, John

      Cohen, Harry

      Hermon, Lady

      Colman, Tony

      Hesford, Stephen

      732

      Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Heyes, David

      Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

      Hill, Keith (Streatham)

      Hodge, Margaret

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Hoon, rh Geoffrey

      Martlew, Eric

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Merron, Gillian

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Michael, rh Alun

      Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

      Milburn, rh Alan

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

      Miliband, David

      Miller, Andrew

      Howells, Dr. Kim

      Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

      Hoyle, Lindsay

      Moffatt, Laura

      Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)

      Mole, Chris

      Moran, Margaret

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Morgan, Julie

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Morley, Elliot

      Hutton, rh John

      Morris, rh Estelle

      Ingram, rh Adam

      Mountford, Kali

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      Mudie, George

      Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

      Mullin, Chris

      Jamieson, David

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

      Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

      Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

      Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

      Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

      O'Neill, Martin

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Organ, Diana

      Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Keen, Alan (Feltham)

      Owen, Albert

      Keen, Ann (Brentford)

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

      Pearson, lan

      Kemp, Fraser

      Perham, Linda

      Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

      Picking, Anne

      Khabra, Piara S.

      Pickthall, Colin

      Kidney, David

      Pike, Peter (Burnley)

      Kilfoyle, Peter

      Plaskitt, James

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

      Pollard, Kerry

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

      Kumar, Dr. Ashok

      Pound, Stephen

      Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

      Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

      Lammy, David

      Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

      Primarolo, rh Dawn

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Lepper, David

      Purchase, Ken

      Leslie, Christopher

      Purnell, James

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Liddell, rh Mrs Helen

      Rammell, Bill

      Linton, Martin

      Raynsford, rh Nick

      Love, Andrew

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Lucas, lan (Wrexham)

      Luke, lain (Dundee E)

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      McCabe, Stephen

      Rooney, Terry

      McCartney, rh lan

      Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

      MacDougall, John

      Ruane, Chris

      McFall, John

      Ruddock, Joan

      McGuire, Mrs Anne

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

      McIsaac, Shona

      McKechin, Ann

      Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Salter, Martin

      McNulty, Tony

      Sarwar, Mohammad

      MacShane, Denis

      Savidge, Malcolm

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      Sawford, Phil

      McWilliam, John

      Shaw, Jonathan

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Sheerman, Barry

      Mahon, Mrs Alice

      Sheridan, Jim

      Mallaber, Judy

      Shipley, Ms Debra

      Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

      Short, rh Clare

      Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

      Singh, Marsha

      733

      Skinner, Dennis

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Smith, Angela (Basildon)

      Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

      Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

      Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)

      Smith, John (Glamorgan)

      Vis, Dr. Rudi

      Soley, Clive

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Southworth, Helen

      Ward, Claire

      Spellar, rh John

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Squire, Rachel

      Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      Watts, David

      Steinberg, Gerry

      White, Brian

      Stevenson, George

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Stewart, lan (Eccles)

      Williams, Betty (Conwy)

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      Wills, Michael

      Stoate, Dr. Howard

      Winnick, David

      Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

      Stringer, Graham

      Stuart, Ms Gisela

      Wood, Mike (Batley)

      Sutcliffe, Gerry

      Woodward, Shaun

      Tami, Mark (Alyn)

      Woolas, Phil

      Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

      Worthington, Tony

      Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

      Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

      Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

      Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

      Timms, Stephen

      Wright, David (Telford)

      Tipping, Paddy

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

      Trickett, Jon

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Truswell, Paul

      Jum Fitzpatrick and

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Derek Twigg

      NOES

      Allan, Richard

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Baker, Norman

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Barrett, John

      Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)

      Beith, rh A. J.

      Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

      Moore, Michael

      Breed, Colin

      Öpik, Lembit

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

      Burnett, John

      Burstow, Paul

      Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Rendel, David

      Calton, Mrs Patsy

      Sanders, Adrian

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

      Chidgey, David

      Cotter, Brian

      Stunell, Andrew

      Davey, Edward (Kingston)

      Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

      Doughty, Sue

      Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      Teather, Sarah

      Gidley, Sandra

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

      Thurso, John

      Harvey, Nick

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Heath, David

      Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

      Holmes, Paul

      Webb, Steve (Northavon)

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Keetch, Paul

      Willis, Phil

      Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Kirkwood, Sir Archy

      Richard Younger-Ross and

      Lamb, Norman

      Bob Russell

      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Lords amendment disagreed to.
      MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER then proceeded to put the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour, pursuant to Order [this day].
      Lords amendment No. 139 disagreed to.

    Clause 216

      LIFE SENTENCE OR IMPRISONMENT FOR PUBLIC PROTECTION FOR SERIOUS OFFENCES
      Lords amendment: No. 167.
      Motion made, and Question put, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.—[Mr. Heppell.]
      The House divided: Ayes 332, Noes 51.

      Division No. 378]

      [8:01 pm

      AYES

      Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Ainger, Nick

      Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

      Alexander, Douglas

      Allen, Graham

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

      Clelland, David

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)

      Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

      Coaker, Vernon

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Atherton, Ms Candy

      Cohen, Harry

      Atkins, Charlotte,

      Colman, Tony

      Austin, John

      Cooper, Yvette

      Bailey, Adrian

      Cousins, Jim

      Baird, Vera

      Cranston, Ross

      Banks, Tony

      Cruddas, Jon

      Barnes, Harry

      Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

      Barron, rh Kevin

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Battle, John

      Cummings, John

      Bayley, Hugh

      Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)

      Beard, Nigel

      Beckett, rh Margaret

      Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

      Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Bell, Stuart

      Darling, rh Alistair

      Benn, rh Hilary

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Bennett, Andrew

      David, Wayne

      Benton, Joe (Bootle)

      Davidson, lan

      Berry, Roger

      Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

      Best, Harold

      Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

      Betts, Clive

      Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

      Blackman, Liz

      Dawson, Hilton

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Blizzard, Bob

      Denham, rh John

      Blunkett, rh David

      Dismore, Andrew

      Boateng, rh Paul

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      Borrow, David

      Doran, Frank

      Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Drew, David (Stroud)

      Bradshaw, Ben

      Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

      Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Edwards, Huw

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Efford, Clive

      Browne, Desmond

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Bryant, Chris

      Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

      Buck, Ms Karen

      Farrelly, Paul

      Burden, Richard

      Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

      Burgon, Colin

      Fisher, Mark

      Burnham, Andy

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Flint, Caroline

      Cairns, David

      Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

      Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

      Follett, Barbara

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Foster, rh Derek

      Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      Caplin, Ivor

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

      Casale, Roger

      Caton, Martin

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      Challen, Colin

      Gapes, Mike (llford S)

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      Gardiner, Barry

      Chaytor, David

      George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

      Clapham, Michael

      Gerrard, Neil

      Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

      Gilroy, Linda

      Godsiff, Roger

      735

      Goggins, Paul

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      McCabe, Stephen

      Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

      McCartney, rh lan

      Grogan, John

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Hain, rh Peter

      MacDougall, John

      Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

      McFall, John

      Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

      McGuire, Mrs Anne

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      McIsaac, Shona

      Hanson, David

      McKechin, Ann

      Harman, rh Ms Harriet

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      McNulty, Tony

      Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)

      MacShane, Denis

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      Healey, John

      McWilliam, John

      Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Hendrick, Mark

      Mahon, Mrs Alice

      Hepburn, Stephen

      Mallaber, Judy

      Heppell, John

      Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

      Hermon, Lady

      Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

      Hesford, Stephen

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia

      Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

      Heyes, David

      Hill, Keith (Streatham)

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Hodge, Margaret

      Martlew, Eric

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Merron, Gillian

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Michael, rh Alun

      Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

      Milburn, rh Alan

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

      Miliband, David

      Miller, Andrew

      Howells, Dr. Kim

      Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

      Hoyle, Lindsay

      Moffatt, Laura

      Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)

      Mole, Chris

      Moran, Margaret

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Morgan, Julie

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Morley, Elliot

      Hutton, rh John

      Morris, rh Estelle

      Ingram, rh Adam

      Mountford, Kali

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      Mudie, George

      Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

      Mullin, Chris

      Jamieson, David

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

      Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

      Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

      Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

      Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

      O'Neill, Martin

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Organ, Diana

      Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Keen, Alan (Feltham)

      Owen, Albert

      Keen, Ann (Brentford)

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

      Pearson, lan

      Kemp, Fraser

      Perham, Linda

      Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

      Picking, Anne

      Khabra, Piara S.

      Pickthall, Colin

      Kidney, David

      Pike, Peter (Burnley)

      Kilfoyle, Peter

      Plaskitt, James

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

      Pollard, Kerry

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

      Kumar, Dr. Ashok

      Pound, Stephen

      Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

      Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

      Lammy, David

      Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

      Primarolo, rh Dawn

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Lepper, David

      Purchase, Ken

      Leslie, Christopher

      Purnell, James

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Liddell, rh Mrs Helen

      Rammell, Bill

      Linton, Martin

      Raynsford, rh Nick

      Love, Andrew

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

      Luke, lain (Dundee E)

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

      736

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

      Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

      Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

      Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

      Timms, Stephen

      Ruane, Chris

      Tipping, Paddy

      Ruddock, Joan

      Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

      Trickett, Jon

      Truswell, Paul

      Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Salter, Martin

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Sarwar, Mohammad

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Savidge, Malcolm

      Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

      Sawford, Phil

      Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)

      Shaw, Jonathan

      Vis, Dr. Rudi

      Sheerman, Barry

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Sheridan, Jim

      Ward, Claire

      Shipley, Ms Debra

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Singh, Marsha

      Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Watts, David

      Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)

      White, Brian

      Smith, Angela (Basildon)

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Smith, John (Glamorgan)

      Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Soley, Clive

      Williams, Betty (Conwy)

      Southworth, Helen

      Wills, Michael

      Spellar, rh John

      Winnick, David

      Squire, Rachel

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      Steinberg, Gerry

      Wood, Mike (Batley)

      Stevenson, George

      Woodward, Shaun

      Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)

      Woolas, Phil

      Worthington, Tony

      Stewart, lan (Eccles)

      Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      Stoate, Dr. Howard

      Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

      Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

      Stringer, Graham

      Wright, David (Telford)

      Stuart, Ms Gisela

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Tami, Mark (Alyn)

      Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

      Jim Fitzpatrick and

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Derek Twigg

      NOES

      Allan, Richard

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Baker, Norman

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Barrett, John

      Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)

      Beith, rh A. J.

      Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

      Moore, Michael

      Breed, Colin

      Öpik, Lembit

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      price Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

      Bruce, Malcolm

      Burnett, John

      Reid Alan (Argyll & Bute)

      Burstow, Paul

      Rendel, David

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      Calton, Mrs Patsy

      Sanders Adrian

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Smith Sir Robert (W Aberdeens & Kincardine)

      Chidgey, David

      Cotter, Brian

      Davey, Edward (Kingston)

      Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

      Doughty Sue

      Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      Teather, Sarah

      Gidley, Sandra

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

      Tnursa John

      Harvey, Nick

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Heath, David

      Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

      Holmes, Paul

      Webb, Steve (Northavon)

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Keetch, Paul

      Willis, Phil

      Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Kirkwood, Sir Archy

      Richard Younger-Ross and

      Lamb, Norman

      Mr. Andrew Stunell

      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Lords amendment disagreed to.
      Lords amendments Nos. 173 and 235 disagreed to.
      Lords amendments Nos. 140 to 166, 168 to 172 and 174 to 202 agreed to.

    Clause 254

      DETERMINATION OF MINIMUM TERM IN RELATION TO MANDATORY LIFE SENTENCE
      Lords amendment: No. 203
      Paul Goggins: I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): With this it will be convenient to take the following: Government amendments (a) and (b) in lieu thereof; Lords amendment No. 431 and the Government motion to disagree thereto.
      Paul Goggins: As we have said before, we believe that it is necessary to include juveniles in the murder sentencing framework laid down in schedule 19. We have considered the issue carefully, as we undertook to do in debate in the House earlier this year. Our conclusion is that the principles as they stand incorporate sufficient flexibility in respect of juveniles for appropriate tariffs to be reached in individual cases. As hon. Members will know, in the other place concern was expressed about the application of these provisions to juveniles, and juveniles were removed from the framework last week.
      We do not accept that juveniles should be dealt with outside the sentencing framework. Their inclusion is desirable, both in providing the clear, simple and transparent sentencing structure necessary to maintain public confidence in the justice system and in ensuring consistency and fairness in setting minimum terms for murder.
      8.15 pm
      Mr. Hilton Dawson: Does my hon. Friend accept that there is serious concern in this House as well about the minimum sentencing framework for juveniles convicted of grave crimes? There is only a very short time available for this debate, and further legislation on juvenile sentencing may be introduced in the next Session. Surely this would be a good opportunity to follow the other place and leave this issue until the next Session of Parliament.
      Paul Goggins: I acknowledge that similar concerns have been expressed in this House, and my response to them is the same as to those expressed in another place. However, I shall conclude my remarks fairly quickly, and so give my hon. Friend and others an opportunity to contribute to this short debate.
      We understand the concerns expressed about juvenile tariffs. To allay them, we propose to reintroduce juveniles into the sentencing system, but we will specifically set in the statute a lower starting point for juveniles, to recognise the special needs of that age group. The juvenile starting point will be 12 years, which
      738
      reflects recent guidance from the Lord Chief Justice. We think that there is nothing in the proposal to detract from the court's ability to set appropriate tariffs in each case, given that there will remain flexibility to aggravate and mitigate upwards and downwards.
      Mr. Grieve: The Minister describes 12 years as a starting point. Will he confirm that 12 years is not the minimum starting point but a median starting point that can be reduced as well as raised?
      Paul Goggins: I am happy to confirm that to the House. Throughout the Bill, the starting points are just that—starting points, not minimum tariffs. They can be raised or lowered depending on the circumstances of a case. That is true for the 12-year starting point for juveniles. The actual tariff for a juvenile may be lower or higher than 12 years.
      Mr. Dawson: Does not the Bill also introduce a new provision, whereby children under 16 could end up with a 12-year sentence? In the past, that has not been possible.
      Paul Goggins: The Bill gives the court the power to deal appropriately with what may be a very serious offence, whether or not it is committed by a juvenile. It makes it very clear that there should be a starting point for juveniles, as there is for adult offenders, but at the lower level of 12 years.
      Although hon. Members may wish to comment on that proposal, and even disagree with it, I hope that my brief remarks have made the Government's position clear—that we wish to reintroduce juveniles into the framework, with a starting point of 12 years.
      Mr. Grieve: I am well aware, from our previous debates and especially from the debate on Report, in which the Home Secretary participated, that divergent views about the correct way to approach children under 18 who commit very serious offences are perhaps inevitable. Clearly, there is always public anxiety about the matter. As I said to the Home Secretary on Report, we may have to accept that a person at the upper limit of the age group who commits a very serious offence, with attendant cruelty and signs of a psychopathic tendency, will have to serve many years in prison. That person may have to serve as long as an adult for the offence, and may never be released. In such circumstances, I suppose that a 12-year starting point may have some relevance.
      The Minister will recall that I spoke about children at the bottom of the age range, who have only just reached the age of criminal responsibility. However grave and serious their crimes may be, there is always the possibility that their personalities will change as they mature, aided by the active input of those looking after them. That will often mean that a 12-year sentence will be completely inappropriate.
      I shall not criticise the Government for adopting this course of action. I am grateful that they have reconsidered the starting point. However, my slight concern about the provision is that I suspect that, in reality, the children who commit serious offences—for that is what they are, children—will serve nothing like as

      739
      much as 12 years. The public may then express concern about why they are so far below the starting point.
      I recall the Lord Chancellor saying, when he was a Home Office Minister in the other place, that he thought that no sensible judge would have difficulty discounting the starting point sufficiently to arrive at a fair outcome. However, that seemed to me to be a slight sleight of hand, as if we would be asking the judiciary to bend the rules to adapt to particular circumstances.
      It is a personal view, but I remain somewhat troubled. Although I think that the Government are right to revisit the starting point, I worry that we may be creating a system that the judiciary will observe more in the breach, instead of following it. If that is so, this exercise will have been rather pointless. Worse still, people—who get very anxious about such matters—will criticise the provision and believe that the starting point is not being observed.
      I hope that I am wrong about that. I do not wish to leave the matter on a bad note, as I accept that the Home Secretary has taken on board many of the anxieties that were expressed.
      Mr. Dawson: I am afraid that I cannot accept this provision, and hope that the House will follow the sensible lead given by the other place. We are talking about children who have committed very grave crimes, but they are children in extraordinary circumstances. Invariably, children in that sort of predicament will have been victims themselves, often of the most gross and appalling abuse. They often have major issues to resolve in their lives, and face huge problems.
      The House will recall the case of Mary Bell. When given the appropriate level of support she was able to change her life, and some of her very serious problems were addressed. We should acknowledge that children and young people are very resilient and can make huge changes. Often, when these children are given the intensive support that they invariably need, they can change fairly quickly.
      It is wrong to present a tariff of 12 years as normal. It is inappropriate to take that decision away from judges, who will need every ounce of their wisdom, discretion, learning and sensitivity to these cases to decide on the appropriate sentence. There may well be cases where a judge decides that a much shorter sentence than 12 years is required. There may well be cases where the reform of and change in the young person under an intensive regime—no doubt, within a secure setting—will lead all those charged with their care to believe that they should be released from custody and helped back into the community much more quickly than any tariff set down in the wake of what was no doubt a heinous and appalling crime.
      The Government are wrong on this matter. The other place is right, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will reflect on that.
      Simon Hughes: This is a difficult and sad subject on which to end our debates on the Bill. It is extremely difficult for all those concerned. I share the view of the hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Dawson) that the House of Lords was right in its decision. I also share the concerns expressed by those on the Conservative Front Bench in previous debates.
      740
      Clause 254 in chapter 7 provides for a determination of minimum term in relation to a mandatory life sentence. Lords amendment No. 203 states that that should
      "not apply if the offender was under 18 when he committed the offence."
      The Lords decided that on the basis of extremely good advice and practice.
      I shall reinforce what the hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre said by again quoting—I have quoted this in a previous debate—what the Lord Chief Justice said in the memorandum that he submitted on mandatory life sentences for murder on 16 June in connection with the House of Lords debate on the Bill. In paragraph 33 of that memorandum he says:
      "I have, however, to assist the Home Secretary by making recommendations as to the minimum periods juveniles, who were in a transitional position, have to serve … The progress made in many of the approximately 140 cases I have examined is often very significant. The offenders were usually from a deprived background and when they received the attention that was provided in custody their attitudes to their offending and their behaviour were frequently transformed."
      Later in the same memorandum, he says:
      "For Parliament to set the guidelines and interfere with sentencing in this unprecedented manner at this time is particularly inappropriate since it is also setting up a new expert independent body which in turn has to act on the expert advice of the Sentencing Advisory Panel.
      Sentencing, particularly in relation to murder, should be removed from the political arena. The present proposal will have the effect of increasing political involvement."
      The Lord Chief Justice went on to describe what he had advised on juveniles in his practice direction of last year. He said:
      "In relation to juveniles, that is young offenders, while it was appropriate to start with the normal starting point for an adult of 12 years, there was to be a reduction for the age of a child with the result that 'for a child of 10, a judge should be considering a starting point in the region of 5 years'."
      He ended by looking at the proposals on young people and said in paragraph 62:
      "I would now refer to the position of children. What is the justification for putting up their normal starting point by an equivalent of 6 years?"—
      I accept that the Government have tabled an amendment that would make that three years, because they have brought down the starting point from their original proposal of 15 years to 12, but the principle still applies—
      "I particularly emphasise this because if the Government's approach is right, juveniles will not again be considered until their minimum period has been served. Can it ever be right not to allow the Parole Board to consider his case at least when he becomes 18 and ceases to be a juvenile and so eligible for the adult prison system?"
      For me, that has always been the issue. If one commits an offence, however terrible, as a juvenile, the moment one becomes an adult in the eyes of the law one's future and past should be reviewed. What one did as a 10, 11 or 12-year-old should not be regarded as an indication of how one is likely to behave as an 18-year-old. That is

      741
      why there should be no minimum. There should be no inflexibility. The court should be able to make a decision based on the individual young person before it, which should be reviewed when he or she becomes 18.
      The rest of paragraph 62 of the Lord Chief Justice's memorandum states:
      "If you have had to read the files of the successive reports relating to juvenile murderers in the numbers that I have, you could not be but appalled by such a suggestion. Many of those involved, if not all, come from a disadvantaged background. Those who have responsibility for their upbringing after they are sentenced usually do a most remarkable job of bringing up those youngsters and they can be transformed in consequence. It is not either just to them or the public to ignore the scale of the change that can take place. Nobody suggests that in their case they should be detained for life. If they are not to be detained for life, it is important in their interests and the public's interest that they are released before what has been achieved for them while in custody as a juvenile is destroyed by their exposure to the adult prison system."
      We all know of the public revulsion at murders committed by juveniles, and I completely understand that. However, they are juveniles and they must be given the benefit of a new start. On the Liberal Democrat Benches, we are clear that the principle should be left to the judge, advised by the sentencing council, in individual cases, and not determined by Parliament. We here cannot do that job fairly either for young people or for society, and we should not try.
      8.30 pm
      Paul Goggins: I do not think that there is any contradiction between the belief, which I am sure we all share, that when a child becomes an adult they can reform and rebuild their life after committing a heinous crime, and the belief that there should be a starting point that judges will consider—
      It being six hours after the commencement of proceedings, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].
      The House divided: Ayes 322, Noes 54.

      Division No. 379]

      [8:31 pm

      AYES

      Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

      Benn, rh Hilary

      Ainger, Nick

      Benton, Joe (Bootle)

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Berry, Roger

      Alexander, Douglas

      Best, Harold

      Allen, Graham

      Betts, Clive

      Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

      Blackman, Liz

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Boateng, rh Paul

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Borrow, David

      Atherton, Ms Candy

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Atkins, Charlotte

      Bradshaw, Ben

      Austin, John

      Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

      Bailey, Adrian

      Baird, Vera

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Banks, Tony

      Browne, Desmond

      Barnes, Harry

      Bryant, Chris

      Barron, rh Kevin

      Buck, Ms Karen

      Battle, John

      Burden, Richard

      Bayley, Hugh

      Burgon, Colin

      Beard, Nigel

      Burnham, Andy

      Beckett, rh Margaret

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)

      Cairns, David

      742

      Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

      Hain, rh Peter

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

      Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

      Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

      Caplin, Ivor

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      Casale, Roger

      Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

      Caton, Martin

      Hanson, David

      Challen, Colin

      Harman, rh Ms Harriet

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      Chaytor, David

      Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)

      Clapham, Michael

      Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

      Healey, John

      Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Hendrick, Mark

      Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

      Hepburn, Stephen

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

      Heppell, John

      Hermon, Lady

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Hesford, Stephen

      Clelland, David

      Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia

      Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

      Heyes, David

      Coaker, Vernon

      Hill, Keith (Streatham)

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Hodge, Margaret

      Cohen, Harry

      Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

      Colman, Tony

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Cooper, Yvette

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Cousins, Jim

      Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

      Cranston, Ross

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

      Cruddas, Jon

      Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

      Howells, Dr. Kim

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Hoyle, Lindsay

      Cummings, John

      Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)

      Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Ingram, rh Adam

      Darling, rh Alistair

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

      David, Wayne

      Jamieson, David

      Davidson, lan

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

      Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

      Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

      Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

      Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

      Denham, rh John

      Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

      Dismore, Andrew

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Dobson, rh Frank

      Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      Keen, Alan (Feltham)

      Doran, Frank

      Keen, Ann (Brentford)

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

      Drew, David (Stroud)

      Kemp, Fraser

      Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

      Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Khabra, Piara S.

      Edwards, Huw

      Kidney, David

      Efford, Clive

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Farrelly, Paul

      Kumar, Dr. Ashok

      Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

      Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Lammy, David

      Flint, Caroline

      Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

      Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

      Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

      Follett, Barbara

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Foster, rh Derek

      Lepper, David

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      Leslie, Christopher

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      Liddell, rh Mrs Helen

      Gapes, Mike (llford S)

      Linton, Martin

      Gardiner, Barry

      Love, Andrew

      George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

      Lucas, lan (Wrexham)

      Gerrard, Neil

      Luke, lain (Dundee E)

      Gilroy, Linda

      Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

      Godsiff, Roger

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Goggins, Paul

      McCabe, Stephen

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      McCartney, rh lan

      Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Grogan, John

      MacDougall, John

      743

      McFall, John

      Ruane, Chris

      McGuire, Mrs Anne

      Ruddock, Joan

      McIsaac, Shona

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

      McKechin, Ann

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

      McNulty, Tony

      Salter, Martin

      MacShane, Denis

      Sarwar, Mohammad

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      Sawford, Phil

      McWilliam, John

      Shaw, Jonathan

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Sheerman, Barry

      Mahon, Mrs Alice

      Sheridan, Jim

      Mallaber, Judy

      Shipley, Ms Debra

      Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

      Singh, Marsha

      Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)

      Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

      Smith, Angela (Basildon)

      Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Smith, John (Glamorgan)

      Martlew, Eric

      Soley, Clive

      Merron, Gillian

      Southworth, Helen

      Michael, rh Alun

      Spellar, rh John

      Milburn, rh Alan

      Squire, Rachel

      Miliband, David

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      Miller, Andrew

      Steinberg, Gerry

      Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

      Stevenson, George

      Moffatt, Laura

      Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)

      Mole, Chris

      Moran, Margaret

      Stewart, lan (Eccles)

      Morgan, Julie

      Stoate Dr. Howard

      Morley, Elliot

      Strang rh Dr. Gavin

      Morris, rh Estelle

      Stringer Graham

      Mountford, Kali

      Stuart, Ms Gisela

      Mullin, Chris

      Tami, Mark (Alyn)

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

      Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

      Taylor Dari (Stockton S)

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Taylor David (NW Leics)

      Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)

      Thomas Gareth (Clwyd W)

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Thomas Qareth (Harrow w)

      Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

      Timms, Stephen

      O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

      Tipping, Paddy

      O'Neill, Martin

      Touhig Don (Islwyn)

      Organ, Diana

      Trickett, Jon

      Osborne Sandra (Ayr)

      Truswell, Paul

      Owen, Albert

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Pearson, Ian

      Perham, Linda

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Picking, Anne

      Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

      Pickthall, Colin

      Vis, Dr. Rudi

      Pike, Peter (Burnley)

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Plaskitt, James

      Ward, Claire

      Pollard, Kerry

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Watson, Tom (w Bromwich E)

      Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

      Watts, David

      Pound, Stephen

      white, Brian

      Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Primarolo, rh Dawn

      Williams, Betty (Conwy)

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Winnick, David

      Purchase, Ken

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

      Purnell, James

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Wood, Mike (Batley)

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Woodward, Shaun

      Rammell, Bill

      Woolas, Phil

      Raynsford, rh Nick

      Worthington, Tony

      Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

      Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Wright, David (Telford)

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      Rooney, Terry

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

      Derek Twigg and

      Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

      Jim Fitzpatrick

      744

      NOES

      Allan, Richard

      Lamb, Norman

      Barrett, John

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Beith, rh A. J.

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

      Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)

      Breed, Colin

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      Moore, Michael

      Bruce, Malcolm

      Öpik, Lembit

      Burnett, John

      Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

      Burstow, Paul

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Pugh, Dr. John

      Calton, Mrs Patsy

      Rendel, David

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Sanders, Adrian

      Chidgey, David

      Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

      Cotter, Brian

      Davey, Edward (Kingston)

      Stunell, Andrew

      Dawson, Hilton

      Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

      Doughty, Sue

      Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      Teather, Sarah

      George, Andrew (St. Ives)

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Gidley, Sandra

      Thurso, John

      Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)

      Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

      Webb, Steve (Northavon)

      Harvey, Nick

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Heath, David

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Holmes, Paul

      Willis, Phil

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

      Younger-Ross, Richard

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Keetch, Paul

      Mr. Alsn Reid and

      Kirkwood, Sir Archy

      Bob Rusell

      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Lords amendment disagreed to.
      Government amendments (a) and (b) in lieu of Lords amendment No. 203 agreed to.
      Lords amendment No. 431 disagreed to.
      Remaining Lords amendments agreed to.
      Committee appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendments Nos. 32, 35, 39, 2, 4, 8, 100, 101, 114, 116 to 123, 125, 127, 128, 131, 138, 139, 167, 173, 235 and 431: Paul Goggins, Mr. Dominic Grieve, Mr. John Heppell, Simon Hughes and Ms Dari Taylor; Paul Goggins to be the Chairman of the Committee; Three to be the quorum of the Committee.—[Mr. Heppell.]
      To withdraw immediately.
      Reasons for disagreeing to certain Lords amendments reported, and agreed to; to be communicated to the Lords.

    EUROPEAN COMMUNITY DOCUMENTS
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 119(9) (European Standing Committees),
    EUROPEAN COMMUNITY DOCUMENTS

      QUALITY AND SAFETY OF HUMAN TISSUES AND CELLS
      That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 10122/03, amended draft Directive on setting standards of quality and safety for the donation, procurement, testing, processing, storage and distribution of human tissues and cells; notes the additional set-up costs and annual running costs arising in the United Kingdom are now expected to be greater than originally anticipated, and in particular may require investment by fertility clinics to upgrade their facilities and practices, but recognises that these costs will be offset by significant benefits to patients, and

      745
      therefore supports the Government's position that the proposed Directive, as presently drafted, is broadly acceptable.—[Mr. Ainger.]
      Question agreed to.

    PETITIONS

      Oxclose Community Nursery School
      8.47 pm
      Joyce Quin: I present to the House a petition on behalf of the staff, parents and friends of Oxclose community nursery school in support of their efforts to keep the school open. The petition is signed by some 2,000 people from the communities of Washington in my constituency that would be most affected by the proposed closure. The petitioners believe that the school has produced excellent results with its experienced staff and that it is an asset that gives real benefits to the surrounding area and community.
      The conclusion of the petition states:
      We, the Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons support our Declaration, and urge the Government to take steps to ensure that Oxclose Community Nursery School remains open.
      And the Petitioners remain, etc.
      To lie upon the Table.

    Planning Application(Cotswold)
    8.48 pm
    Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to present a petition signed by 1,500 of my Cotswold constituents urging the Deputy Prime Minister to use his powers to call for a planning application to be considered by an independent planning inspector. The application is principally concerned with the dumping of a large quantity of construction waste from outside the area into the heart of the Cotswold area of outstanding natural beauty, thus increasing heavy goods traffic on narrow and unsuitable roads. The petitioners believe that the application is environmentally unsustainable.
    The petition is signed by my constituent Mrs. Charlotte Heber Percy of Eyford house, Upper Slaughter, Nr. Cheltenham, Gloucestershire.
    The petition states:
    To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament Assembled
    The Humble Petition of the Residents of the Cotswolds showeth
    That Planning Application ref: CD/0165/1/S by Huntsmans Quarries Ltd. for Aggregates Recycling: Plant Area Rationalisation: Agricultural Restoration: Infilling, was passed on the 11 th November 2003 by the Gloucestershire County Council on the casting vote of the Chairman.
    Wherefore your petitioners pray that your Honourable House should urge the Deputy Prime Minister to use his statutory powers to call in this application and appoint an independent inspector to consider this application.
    And your petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray etc.
    To lie upon the Table.

    NHS (Wales)
    Motion made,and Question proposed,That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Aingeri]
    8.50 pm
    Gareth Thomas: I am grateful for the opportunity to raise a crucial subject: the national health service and, in particular, the NHS in Wales. I am also grateful to be accompanied by a male voice choir from various Labour constituencies in Wales.
    I strongly believe that it is appropriate for a Welsh Member to raise the subject, even though the Executive powers for running the NHS have been devolved to the National Assembly, because the power to raise the taxes that pay for the NHS across the UK resides here, the legislative framework within which the NHS operates is laid down here, and a number of measures dealing with NHS reform were debated and enacted here. So while the arrangements persist, Welsh Members of Parliament will be inextricably linked to the process of investment and reform within the NHS in Wales. If there were doubts about our right to raise the subject, we know from contact with our constituents that it remains the single most important domestic issue, so Welsh MPs are perfectly entitled to express a view on it.
    The state of the NHS in Wales can be encapsulated in the old Welsh phrase, often found in school reports, of "nid da lle gellir gwell", loosely and charitably translated as "could do better". Although there have been significant improvements in the performance of the NHS in Wales thanks to the Government's record investment in public services, waiting lists are still unacceptably high and there is a danger that if the Assembly does not pursue reform as vigorously as it is pursued in England, the NHS in Wales will fall even further behind.
    What is the current position? On 31 March 2003, no fewer than 74,600 people in Wales were waiting for inpatient treatment—14 per cent. more than were waiting on 31 March 1999. It is interesting to observe that over the same period, the resident-based in-patient waiting lists in England fell by 9 per cent.
    Of those Welsh residents waiting for in-patient treatment on that date, 16 per cent. had been waiting for more than 12 months, compared with 0 per cent. in England, and 5,200 Welsh residents—7 per cent. of the total—had been waiting for more than 18 months for treatment. That is a bad position. In addition, several trusts are operating with deficits. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will accept that there are unacceptable variations in performance between NHS trusts in Wales.
    Of course, waiting lists and times are not the only measure of performance, but I believe that they are a crucial indicator of the extent to which extra investment is being used effectively. They are more than that, because behind the statistics are many personal histories of pain, discomfort, worry and uncertainty. I am sure that many hon. Members have shared the frustration

    747
    and sometimes the despair of constituents who have been left on the waiting list for far too long. That is far from Aneurin Bevan's vision.
    Mr. Wayne David: Does my hon. Friend accept that in Gwent, some people on orthopaedic waiting lists have to wait four and a half years for the operation that they need?
    Gareth Thomas: That is not a case of "could do better". It is a bad position that requires serious improvement, and I sympathise with my hon. Friend's constituents. It is worth emphasising that the deterioration in waiting times occurred in a period of unprecedented increased investment in the NHS in Wales. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, Central (Mr. Jones) has eloquently made that point.
    Mark Tami: Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a danger that Opposition Members—not one is here—believe that the NHS can be reformed without putting in any extra investment, and that the Assembly believes that it is a case of money without reform? Reform is essential if we are to improve the NHS in Wales.
    Gareth Thomas: I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. Of course, reform must accompany investment. We should not take lectures from Conservative Members even if any were present. I assume that my hon. Friend referred to the official Opposition. If they had their way, the tax cuts that they envisage would create mayhem in the NHS in Wales. In fairness to the Assembly Government, they recognise that the extra investment must be accompanied by reform. The Wanless report was commissioned because of such recognition.
    The conclusions of Derek Wanless were blunt and to the point, and he made several recommendations. He said:
    "The position in Wales is worse than in the UK as a whole … Wales does not get as much out of its spending as it should."
    It is alarming that his overall conclusion is that the current position is unsustainable. Hon. Members will be familiar with some of his major recommendations. They include: the need to reshape services, deal with inappropriate referrals, integrate health and social care and emphasise prevention. That is all well and good and we congratulate the Assembly on its work on that.
    However, the Wanless report also recommended the need to stop funding deficits and to reward success and good performance with greater freedom and autonomy. If one speaks to those who have experience of managing a complicated organisation such as the health service, which has so many vested and competitive interests, they say that the political message from the top has to be clear and consistent. One expert commentator to whom I spoke said that the NHS needed to be "pushed". He did not mean that that should be done in an aggressive way that would undermine the important public service ethos, that underlies the health service. He meant that there needed to be consistent signals from the top. I strongly believe that we need to give a stronger steer to NHS management on the need to reduce waiting times. We need to insist on detailed scrutiny of where all this
    748
    extra money is going, and to learn—yes,learn—from
    what is being done in England, particularly through the Modernisation Agency.
    Lembit Öpik: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that he agrees with the Opposition parties in the Assembly, which today voted down Labour's proposals for a so-called action plan on the ground that they did not think that it was anything of the sort, with regard to the Wanless report? Would he acknowledge that, for all his criticisms, many of which I agree with, it is Labour Administrations in Cardiff and in London who are presiding over the circumstances in which many of our constituents—including mine, near the border—can get no serious medical attention from the hospitals across the border because the bills cannot be paid?
    Gareth Thomas: There are real difficulties in border areas. The hon. Gentleman has made a fair point. We must accept, however, that the Assembly is making some progress. It has inherited a difficult situation.
    Mr. Jon Owen Jones: My hon. Friend should not allow that intervention by the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) to pass without remarking that during the major period of difficulty in implementing change, the Labour party in the Welsh Assembly was in partnership with the Liberal Democrats—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. This Adjournment debate is obviously quite delicate in the way that it deals with a balance between this House and other establishments. I do not think that we should get too involved in the internal politics of the Welsh Assembly.
    Gareth Thomas: The burden of my debate is that the pace of change and reform must accelerate if we are going to turn round the NHS in Wales. I am particularly concerned about the need to ensure that there is more capital investment in the NHS. There is an urgent need to invest in buildings, equipment, new technology and new services, and I should also like to see the Assembly take on the idea of diagnostic and treatment centres and large-scale methods of dealing with cataract operations, knee joint operations, and so on.
    There has been cumulative underinvestment, and let us make no bones about the fact that the Conservatives were responsible for that. In commissioning its national estates strategic framework, the National Assembly for Wales demonstrated that it recognised that there was a huge challenge involved in addressing what are called backlog maintenance costs. These are the costs necessary to bring the NHS trusts' estates up to a reasonable standard. A recent report by the Auditor General for Wales showed that 32 per cent. of the NHS trusts' estates surveyed were unfit for their purpose. A conservative estimate of the cost of meeting those backlog maintenance costs is no less than £431 million. That does not include the investment in new services such as diagnostic and treatment centres that I believe should take place, to allow us to catch up with the pace of technological reform in the NHS.

    749
    The Assembly appears to recognise that there is a role for the private finance initiative, and we are told that there is no ideological objection to its take-up. It is worrying, however, that while PFI projects are being taken up at a very fast rate over the border in England, and many new facilities and hospitals are being built in places close to my constituency such as Liverpool and Manchester, the take-up in Wales is disappointingly low. It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that there is an ideological objection to it.
    Albert Owen: My hon. Friend mentioned hospitals in Manchester and Liverpool. The NHS trust in my area of north-west Wales is meeting its targets, and one of the reasons for that is that many patients go to those hospitals in England. Does he agree that the NHS needs to maintain such cross-border co-operation and partnership so that waiting lists in Wales can be substantially reduced?
    Gareth Thomas: I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. Of course, that traffic of people and patients across the border is a feature of the NHS in Wales.
    I am afraid that there is a lukewarm approach to the PFI, but I believe that it is essential to take it up.
    Adam Price: If I may say so, the hon. Gentleman has given us an expert diagnosis of the problem, particularly in relation to the lack of capital investment. What I am not so convinced about is the prognosis. For example, would it not be more cost-efficient for the UK Government to allow the Welsh Assembly Government to borrow on the bond market rather than use the PFI, which is a rather expensive way to generate capital investment?
    Gareth Thomas: I do not accept that point, but there is a real need to ensure that we work in partnership with the private sector to release extra funds over and above the generous allocations made available by this Government through their prudent handling of the economy. That is my point. If we are to create a modern health service, we need more take-up.
    If we are to safeguard the future of the NHS, it must become not only a comprehensive service, free at the point of need, but a truly modern service that is genuinely responsive to patients' needs. The Prime Minister is quite right to emphasise the fact that reform must accompany investment. As a strong supporter of devolution who campaigned strongly for a Welsh Assembly, and one who is proud of that achievement, which the Labour Government managed to implement, I say that it is essential that the Assembly demonstrates to the people of Wales that it can discharge this responsibility to the people of Wales and create a national health service fit for the 21st century.
    9.7 pm
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Don Touhig): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, West (Gareth Thomas) on securing this useful debate, which gives us the opportunity to discuss the considerable investment in the NHS in Wales.
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    Labour Members are committed to securing improvements in the NHS in Wales—a commitment that we share with the Labour-led National Assembly. Like my hon. Friend, I believe that the twin engines that will drive forward the essential improvement in the NHS are investment and reform—investment supporting a reform agenda tailored to Welsh health needs.
    The Government and the Assembly, working in partnership, are providing record investment. Planning and delivering reforms is an essential part of that. Investment in the health service in Wales has never been greater. The Assembly's recently published draft budget for next year will see an 8.9 per cent. increase in health and social care spending and a total health budget of £4.28 billion. The trend of decades of underinvestment has been reversed. Perhaps that is why the Opposition decided not to show up this evening.
    Investment means building for the future so that the NHS in Wales—one of our proudest achievements of the 20th century—goes from strength to strength in the 21st. We are laying foundations for the NHS in Wales that will deliver a world-class health service. Some of what we are doing is, literally, building, and the people of Wales see the results around them—for example, the Royal Glamorgan hospital in Llantrisant, St. David's hospital in Cardiff, Chepstow community hospital and the new Neath and Port Talbot hospital.
    Since 1999, the Labour-led National Assembly has built those four hospitals as part of delivering the pledge of 10 new hospitals within the next 10 years. That is in addition to the all-Wales capital programme projects.
    Mr. Jon Owen Jones: Will my hon. Friend comment on the fact that three of the four hospitals that he has referred to were built under the PFI and commissioned before the Welsh Assembly came into being?
    Mr. Touhig: That is an example of the partnership between Government and the Assembly to which I referred. I will comment on the PFI in due course.
    The all-Wales capital programme includes refurbishing many community hospitals in Powys, major health and safety work at Prince Charles and Glan Clwyd hospitals and the re-provision of mental health services in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire.
    Some of my hon. Friend's comments have naturally focused on PFI projects. Nye Bevan used to say that policies needed to be reviewed because they became blunted with use. The PFI is one new tool that we can use. It was not available to the founders of the NHS, but it is available to us. It can be used for capital investment in the health service. I support the PFI, and commend its use whenever that is considered appropriate.
    Of course, our greatest asset in the NHS is not any one building or facility, but the staff who work in it. The Assembly has been investing heavily in the men and women of the NHS in Wales. The number of front-line staff has risen as a result of increased investment, and of the successes of the recruitment and retention strategies applied by the Assembly. There are 30 per cent. more

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    whole-time equivalent hospital consultants working in Wales than there were in 1997. There are nearly 16 per cent. more qualified nurses than in 1997, a 5 per cent. increase on last year, and there are 6 per cent. more GPs than there were a decade ago. But the recruitment of extra health professionals is not enough on its own. Our colleagues in the Assembly have policies for retaining the expertise that we already have in Wales.
    The last Government—not represented here tonight—cut the number of doctors and nurses being trained. Over the last three years the number of medical students has increased from 966 to more than 1,100, and it will increase to 1,385 by 2004. The Assembly plans to have 700 more consultants and GPs, 6,000 more nurses and 2,000 more other health professionals by 2010.
    All that effort is aimed at improving the way in which we treat people who are already ill, but we have another fundamental task: to tackle the long-term health problems that affect our communities. As well as investing in the fabric and staff of the NHS, the Assembly has invested, and continues to invest, in that effort. It is vital for most help to be targeted where it is most needed. The draft budget to which I referred has targeted funds on tackling health inequalities in Wales.
    For me, the most important person in the NHS is the patient. Investment and reform in the NHS should have one simple objective—to meet the needs of the patient. The patient must come first. That is why we are not satisfied with our present record of investment. We must reform the health service in Wales so that it does an even better job in meeting the needs of Welsh patients.
    Structural reform of the NHS in Wales has focused on the creation of strengthened health services, and seeks local solutions to local needs. Standards are set at an all-Wales level, but are delivered locally. Both the Government and the Assembly believe in empowering local communities to decide how best to tackle local health problems. Local health boards and local authorities now have structures to allow closer working between the NHS and social services that can deliver better care for patients. That partnership approach is integral to delivering better care for patients. Our shared aim is a seamless provision of services, delivered through groupings of heath and social care providers.
    The patient is rightly at the centre of the NHS. In 2001–02, 200,000 more patients were seen in Wales than in 1996–97. The health service in Wales treated 643,000 in-patients, and dealt with 2.8 million out-patient appointments last year alone. That is an impressive record, but we have another important commitment—to tackle the issue of waiting times, mentioned by my hon. Friend and others.
    Waiting times remain a challenge, but the Assembly is tackling such challenges. Heart disease is one of Wales's biggest health problems, and one of its biggest killers. That is why the Assembly targeted cardiac surgery. When the cardiac initiative began in July 2001, 100 patients were waiting for longer than 12 months for surgery; now no one is waiting that long. I know from my own constituency how important orthopaedic surgery can be to people's quality of life in Wales. We inherited a huge problem with waiting times, and I am
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    pleased that the Assembly has targeted orthopaedic surgery for additional investment. When the orthopaedic initiative began in July 2001, more than 2,000 people were waiting more than 18 months for treatment; now there are 45, which is a considerable improvement. By the end of the year, no one will be waiting more than 18 months. Twelve months ago, 10,000 more people were waiting more than six months for their first out-patient appointment than are waiting today—again, a considerable improvement.
    Mark Tami: Does my hon. Friend accept that there is a problem, particularly in border areas, where people know that the drop in waiting times for English patients is greater than it is for Welsh patients. It is not acceptable in the long term for Welsh patients to be told that they have to wait for 18 months, while some English patients may be asked to wait for six months for the same operation.
    Mr. Touhig: I entirely accept my hon. Friend's point. We all have experience of our constituents telling us about that problem. It is important to acknowledge the considerable advances that the Assembly has made in various initiatives. I hope that people will look at what is happening in England and say, "If they can do it, so can we." I am convinced that, by working in partnership with the Assembly, we are on the right track and will move towards improving waiting times.
    Mr. David: Does my hon. Friend accept that the time between a patient seeing their GP and seeing a consultant can be as long as three years, never mind 18 months?
    Mr. Touhig: I entirely accept that. In our part of south-east Wales, it is quite common for people to have to wait 180 weeks for their first appointment with an orthopaedic consultant. My colleague Jane Hutt, the Minister for Health and Social Services in the Assembly is tackling that problem: she announced today a further waiting times initiative to build on what has already been achieved. From 1 April 2004, every patient in Wales will be guaranteed a second offer of treatment to ensure that they wait no longer than 18 months. In some cases, that will include the option to receive treatment at a different location. We should welcome that, because it is line with the reforms and improvements that we want.
    No one is denying that challenges face the NHS in Wales. The Wanless review of health and social care in Wales, which was undertaken at the request of the Assembly, showed the scale of the challenge referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, West. We are rightly proud of the successes of the NHS in Wales and the things that it delivers, but we recognise the need for tough action in areas where more has to be done to deliver the services that patients expect. I am pleased that my colleagues in the Assembly made it clear today that they are prepared to act against trusts that are not delivering their targets. My hon. Friend mentioned the Wanless recommendation that the Assembly should stop underwriting deficits. I agree with that recommendation. Indeed, my colleague Jane Hutt said today:
    "Deficits will only be covered by repayable loans."

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    She went on to say:
    "I expect all health organisations to sign up to deliverable finance plans and restore financial balance within the timetable laid down … the warning I have given about financial discipline means that the money provided will be reclaimed."
    If that is not a message to underperforming trusts, I do not know what is. It is important that we all back Jane Hutt in that initiative, and make it clear to underperforming trusts that we are not prepared to accept failures in future.
    The NHS in Wales is one of the finest achievements of a civilised society, and was delivered by a Labour Government. In a nation where many people suffer from the illnesses that are the legacy of heavy industry and social disadvantage, the health service is literally a lifeline for our people and our communities. I fully endorse the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, West at the beginning of our debate that it is important that hon. Members can articulate their
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    constituents' concerns. We are the Parliament of the United Kingdom, and the Government are delighted to work in partnership with our colleagues in the Assembly in overcoming difficulties.
    After a tale of underinvestment and neglect for many years, the story of the Welsh health service has reached a new chapter. The drivers of improvement, investment and reform are being put to work by the Government and the Assembly, working in partnership for the people of Wales. We are matching our commitment to reform with our commitment to invest, and the results are already beginning to show, although I accept that we are impatient for more reforms and investment. Investment and reform in the NHS are fundamental Government pledges, and we are working in partnership with the Assembly, the NHS and the people of Wales to deliver the health service that Wales deserves now and in the future.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Adjourned accordingly at twenty minutes past Nine 'clock.