Commons Sitting of 10 November 2003

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
  CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT
  The Secretary of State was asked—
  CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT

    Licensing
    Mr. John Denham: What further licensing measures she proposes to take to tackle drunken behaviour in town and city centres. [137023]
    The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Tessa Jowell): The prevention of crime and disorder is a key objective of the Licensing Act, which received Royal Assent this summer. Its provisions include expanded police powers to close premises that are disorderly or noisy; the ability to review licences when problems arise, backed by an extended range of sanctions; and new powers to allow local authorities to address problems when the number of licensed premises reaches saturation point—an issue raised by many hon. Members. It also includes new offences to deal with
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    drunk and disorderly behaviour in licensed premises and the introduction of flexible opening hours to reduce binge drinking and avoid flash points at closing time.
    Mr. Denham: I thank my right hon. Friend for her response and for the positive moves that the Government have taken, but does she accept that the problem in many town and city centres is not one of individually badly run premises, but the cumulative effect of so many people who have had too much to drink coming out on to the streets? Will she keep an open mind about the possibility of making it a licence condition that in designated entertainment areas those premises should be required to co-operate with the local police through radiocommunications systems or to make a modest contribution towards the cost of policing town and city centres?
    Tessa Jowell: I thank my right hon. Friend for asking that question. Yes, there is indeed provision in the Licensing Act 2003 for local authorities, on the basis of representations from the police, to add conditions to the premises licence—for example, the need to have radio pagers, toughened glass and CCTV—on evidence of drunk and disorderly behaviour. As my right hon. Friend will be aware, those conditions were directly negotiated and supported by the Home Secretary. The provisions do not, however, include a levy of the kind that my right hon. Friend requests.
    Mr. Owen Paterson: Drunken misbehaviour is a major problem in Oswestry and Market Drayton. What consideration has the Secretary of State given to giving local citizens greater opportunities to appeal against local authorities that issue licences in the teeth of police advice?
    Tessa Jowell: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Licensing Act 2003 provides, for the first time ever, the opportunity for individual residents to make representations about licensing decisions. There will be an appeal mechanism, but the key change that has been

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    achieved through the modernised licensing law is the power that it gives to citizens and local communities, and the new powers it gives to the police.
    Mr. Frank Field: I know that the Secretary of State was in Liverpool on Friday, but I do not know whether she had time to come under the tunnel into Birkenhead. If she had, she would have seen that there, as in many other city centres, there are several pubs and clubs whose main aim, especially on Friday and Saturday nights, is to get as many people as possible drunk as quickly as possible. The cost of policing the inner parts of Birkenhead is £140,000 a year. Will my right hon. Friend speak with her colleagues in the Home Office to see whether that charge would not better be borne by those who run the trade than by ratepayers who wish to see more police on the beat, but do not want them to be used to herd together drunk and disorderly citizens?
    Tessa Jowell: I thank my right hon. Friend for that contribution. Sadly, on this occasion, I did not have the opportunity to visit Birkenhead. I visited Toxteth and Wavertree and also went to the town hall for a briefing on capital of culture events. I hope to visit Birkenhead on another occasion.
    I would like to deal with the point implicit in my right hon. Friend's question. In dealing, as we fully intend to do, with crime, disorder and drunkenness in city centres where there are a lot of licensed premises, it is important to recognise that the licensing regime is but one instrument available to local authorities and the police. The Licensing Act 2003 has provided new powers for both the police and local authorities to tackle the problem. My right hon. Friend will also be aware of the further powers in the Anti-Social Behaviour Bill, currently before the House. It is also important to remember that licensed premises, which contribute in many ways to the life and economy of our big cities and towns, do pay taxes, including council tax, and in return are entitled to receive services.
    Mr. Greg Knight: We are grateful to the Secretary of State for confirming our understanding of the position—that the new licensing regime will provide great opportunities for complaints to be made when licensed premises are responsible for drunken or loutish behaviour. That being so, why will the Government apparently allow the costly brewster sessions to go ahead next year? That archaic triennial event is likely to cost applicants in excess of £11 million. Why cannot that money be put to better use in tackling the problems of drunkenness, rather than in paying legal support costs?
    Tessa Jowell: I am happy to write to the right hon. Gentleman on that point—
    Mr. John Bercow: Copy it to us.
    Tessa Jowell: I will copy it to all those hon. Members who have an interest in the matter on behalf of their constituents. The purpose of the new licensing regime is
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    to protect children and reduce the levels of antisocial behaviour associated with drunkenness. The measures are adequate to that task.
    Tony Wright: We all know that in much of Europe towns are taken over by families in the evenings, but in this country families are driven out of towns in the evenings. We must get a grip of that problem. Might not that involve making town centres alcohol-free zones?
    Rob Marris: Steady on!
    Tessa Jowell: The short answer is no. We would not receive popular support for making city centres alcohol-free zones, but my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Tony Wright) makes an important point that the new licensing regime reflects. Local authorities will have much greater discretion to set conditions to promote family-friendly pubs. Many more pubs now serve food, and people want to take their children to them. It is a question of balance between liberalisation and protecting children from drunkenness and antisocial behaviour. Some local authorities will be clear that children should never be allowed in some pubs, but in country areas and smaller towns, a family-friendly atmosphere is to be encouraged. That is why we have a flexible licensing regime.

    Libraries, Museums and Archives
    Tom Brake: If she will make a statement on the funding of (a)libraries,(b)museums and (c) archives. [137025]
    The Minister for the Arts (Estelle Morris): Libraries, museums and archives receive funding from a number of sources, with the principal funder being local government. My Department's aim is to ensure that its support for those three sectors is complementary and strategic, and focused on the areas of greatest need and greatest potential to deliver Government priorities.
    Tom Brake: I thank the Minister for her response. Are there any plans to slash funding for London's greatest art collections, as reported by someone who was apparently speaking on her behalf, to pay for regional galleries? If those reports are correct, does the Minister agree that we need some blue-sky thinking and should give the regional development agencies a role in filling the funding gap of £180 million that was identified by the regional museums task force in 2001?
    Estelle Morris: I am grateful for the opportunity to set the record straight. I usually speak for myself and not through someone speaking on my behalf. The Evening Standard, The Sunday Times and other papers were plain wrong about it. The hon. Gentleman may have read the letter I wrote to the Evening Standard, which made that absolutely clear. The Government have an excellent record as the first Government to fund regional museums through the renaissance in the regions programme. I want that to flourish and grow, and I hope that it will be supported. At the same time, we have also

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    increased funding for national museums and galleries. That is our record and that will continue to be our practice.
    Diana Organ: My hon. Friend is no doubt well aware of the important role that local and independent museums such as the Dean Heritage Museum in the Forest of Dean play in the culture of our country. What plans does she have for strategic funding for local, independent museums?
    Estelle Morris: Those museums play an important role, and I hope that they can become partners in strategic funding and can work with hub museums. There are 4,000-plus museums throughout the United Kingdom, and the sector is one that the Government neither do nor should control. People have the right to set up museums, and they do so every year. It would be inappropriate ever to have a grand strategic plan to cover every museum, but I want to do all that we can to make sure that local people have a coherent and cohesive service. More importantly, I want museums to be encouraged to work together, which has not, historically, been the practice of the sector.
    Sir Patrick Cormack: Is the Minister satisfied with the acquisition budgets of our great national museums and galleries, and when will she be able to make an announcement on the Raphael that the National Gallery is so anxious to acquire?
    Estelle Morris: The hon. Gentleman asks two questions in one. On the Raphael, the tax matters are very complex. I am eager to make an announcement as quickly as I can, and I have pushed our advisers to come up with that advice. I could not act without necessary and specialist advice from tax officials, but I have just received it and hope to make an announcement in due course.
    I always wish that the acquisition budget was greater, but it has been significantly increased from several sources—not just Government sources—in recent years. I should say that neither the Government nor anyone else can control the escalation in price of works of art as they come on to the market. No Government—this or any other—could ever pledge to make available whatever sum any gallery chose. The situation is difficult, but acquisition is an important part of the sector's work.

    Amateur Sport
    Jane Griffiths: If she will make a statement on rate relief for amateur sports clubs. [137026]
    The Minister for Sport and Tourism (Mr. Richard Caborn): The Government introduced an amendment to the Local Government Bill in September to provide for mandatory rate relief at 80 per cent. for registered community amateur sports clubs. In excess of 500 clubs
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    had successfully applied for registration by 31 October, and a similar number of applications is in the pipeline. I strongly advise all clubs to apply for mandatory relief.
    Jane Griffiths: That reply is very welcome. Does my right hon. Friend agree that cycling will benefit greatly from rate relief, as it is the many small amateur clubs that nurture the cycling stars of tomorrow?
    Mr. Caborn: I very much agree. Last week, I attended a conference in Brighton organised by a good team of people—I pay tribute to Lord Phillips of Sudbury, the Inland Revenue, Deloitte Touche and Richard Baldwin, the Central Council of Physical Recreation, Sport England, and the National Playing Fields Association—who got together to make sure that the message is going out to amateur clubs. Cycling, which my hon. Friend mentioned, has a very good governing body, which is linking in on this matter and into new development in schools.
    Mr. Nick Hawkins: The Minister will be aware that I recently led a delegation from the CCPR, representing a number of amateur sports clubs, to see Baroness Scotland about some of the extra costs that have been loaded on to amateur sport. While the Minister's recent announcement is welcome, does he recognise that the extra costs of such things as the Criminal Records Bureau have put a lot of pressure on sports, particularly those, such as swimming, that find it difficult to attract funding? Will he consider the costs imposed on sport as well as the potential benefits of his changes?
    Mr. Caborn: That is true, and those representations were made. Through Sport England, we are in dialogue with all the governing bodies. The hon. Gentleman will accept that we must put in place regulations of the type he referred to in order to protect young people particularly children—in various sports clubs. We have to make sure that parents believe in the integrity of coaching and the development of sports clubs. If we do not, there will be a distraction from, not an attraction to, sport.
    Mr. John Grogan: Does my right hon. Friend accept that the news of rate relief will be particularly welcome to the 1,000 members of Selby bowls club, who were recently bowled over when Selby district council increased its rate bill from zero last year to £12,000 this year? Will he emphasise that rural district councils such as Selby can offer 100 per cent. rate relief where they think it appropriate? That may be particularly relevant to small village cricket clubs, which are such an important part of village life.
    Mr. Caborn: That news is welcome. Investment is being made through community amateur sports clubs, 500 of which had applied for relief by 31 October. Of those claims, 105 involved gift aid, and the amount saved for those clubs is £147,000. The best of them got £32,000 back, and half a dozen or so have had about £8,000, which means a lot of money is going back to sports clubs. The cash is working, and we have added

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    mandatory rate relief and hope to get local authorities to offer the further 20 per cent. All that is a major injection into amateur sport in this country.
    Tony Cunningham: What steps she is taking to support amateur sport. [137027]
    The Minister for Sport and Tourism (Mr. Richard Caborn): As well as mandatory rate relief for amateur sports clubs, the Government are providing about £60 million over the period 2003–04 to 2004–05 for club facilities in 16 sports. The amateur sector has benefited substantially from wider Sport England lottery funding, and will continue to do so. Links between schools and local clubs are also to be strengthened under the PE, school sport and club links programme.
    Tony Cunningham: I thank my right hon. Friend for those remarks, but will he bear in mind the fact that when I used to coach my local rugby union side in the mid-1980s we ran five senior sides, whereas now we struggle to get two sides out—and even when we do so it is often difficult to find anyone to play against. There are real difficulties in respect of participation. We all recognise the importance of sport in dealing with crime and with health issues such as obesity and drugs, and in education and so on, so what more can my right hon. Friend do to ensure co-ordination between Departments to improve participation in sport?
    Mr. Caborn: As we are talking about rugby union, I am sure the House will send both our congratulations and our hopes for next Saturday in the match against France, as well our hopes that we pick up that silverware in the final the Saturday after.
    Mr. Dennis Skinner: After a struggle.
    Mr. Caborn: The best is yet to come.
    Investment in our amateur clubs is important. In this country, 70 per cent. of our young people do not continue with active sport when they leave school—a bad record compared with many other countries. It is extremely important that we support our governing bodies to ensure that they start to invest in club structures so that we can arrest that trend. Unless we do so, the quality will not come through, as my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Tony Cunningham) said, because we shall not have the critical mass.
    We are also acting with the Department of Health through the newly set-up activity co-ordination team to link health, sport and physical activity. With the investment we are making in schools and in our club structures, I hope that we shall see a significant improvement not only in the clubs but also in the health of the nation.
    Mr. Crispin Blunt: Will the Minister explain the incentives for amateur sports? I play for a cricket club in my constituency which runs five senior sides and makes a significant contribution to promoting junior and youth cricket, yet I do not think it will qualify for rate relief because the top team is in the first league of the Surrey Championship and the club employs a professional. Should not all sports that are being run on
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    a voluntary basis receive rate relief and consistent support? Whether such clubs are big or little, they all contribute to the community.
    Mr. Caborn: As I have just explained, a number of tax breaks, including gift aid, are available as soon as a club registers as a community amateur sports club; on top of that we have now introduced the mandatory rate relief of 80 per cent. We are also investing in the club structure. The England and Wales Cricket Board is developing the game at the grass-roots level and any club that is registered with the board can apply. The relationship between clubs and the governing body has been strengthened and I hope that will ensure that more young people come into the sport. The big four sports are working together much more effectively to try to create a critical mass of young people who do not play only one individual sport but who cross over to other sports.
    Andy Burnham: A welcome if unexpected source of support for amateur football in recent years has been the premier league, which, as a consequence of the current television deal, has invested about £60 million in football's grass roots. However, there is currently some doubt about that as the competition directorate in Brussels is looking into the structure of the premier league television deal. Will the Minister do all he can to ensure that the competition authorities in Brussels are fully aware of the public interest benefits that the current television arrangements bring to English football?
    Mr. Caborn: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are making representations to the Department of Trade and Industry, which has responsibility for competition policy. However, I want to put it on record that we have one of the best redistributions, with moneys coming into football being passed both to the amateur game and to the professional sport. Our record is probably better than that in any European league; £60 million is being invested through the Football Foundation and the youth development trusts and they are doing a good job. That is not to say that they could not do better but, relatively speaking, they are doing better than their counterparts in Europe.
    Mr. Don Foster: Although the £60 million and the rate relief for amateur sports clubs are clearly welcome, given that the Minister has acknowledged that obesity is increasing and that participation in amateur sports clubs is predicted to fall, what is he doing to take urgent action to try to get the regional sports boards, which have been delayed by up to a year, fully operational, so that they too can play a part by distributing the frozen lottery grants?
    Mr. Caborn: It is untrue to say that the boards have been delayed by a year. On the contrary, I had dinner last Sunday night with all the chairmen of the new sports boards and the Sport England board in Manchester, and the following day—a week ago today—they were discussing how they would devolve to the regions the moneys that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State secured on the back of our bid for the Olympics. So £100 million of new money will go into the multi-sports clubs

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    throughout the country. On top of that, we are investing £500 million through local education authorities and £130 million in sport and arts in the community. All that investment is going in, and the sports boards now have a major influence on how that money is spent in a much more strategic way than was probably previously the case.
    Mr. Peter Pike: Does my right hon. Friend accept that, although what he has said is very good news and the Government and the lottery are doing a lot to help amateur sport, we still have too many poor and waterlogged pitches for amateur sports, that those pitches need better drainage and that all our amateur clubs need acceptable training and changing facilities?
    Mr. Caborn: That is what we are trying to do. We are trying to ensure that we start to bring all public assets—including schools, universities and further education colleges—into play for all communities. If we start to do that, we will find that there is access to many more facilities than has been the case, but I caution my hon. Friend that there is a changing mood out there: many young people want to play not on soggy pitches but on new synthetic pitches, where, if they want to, they can play 24 hours a day, seven days a week under floodlit conditions, and many of our young people rightly want to play indoors. If we compare our indoor tennis facilities with those in France, we find that the French beat us something like 10:1, and we need to rethink that. That is why I believe that some of those who have campaigned only for playing fields have probably misread the debate about such things in the recent past.
    Mr. Malcolm Moss: How can the imposition of additional costs and regulation in any way be described as support for amateur sport? Why is the Minister reneging on commitments given by his predecessor that the new licence fees under the Licensing Act 2003 would not adversely affect amateur sport and sports clubs, when it is clear from the representations that he has received from amateur sports bodies that that is the case?
    Mr. Caborn: We have not decided what the fees will be, so I do not know how people can make such assessments. We are bringing six regulatory regimes into one, and we will have to see how that plays out. A number of sports clubs could gain from the new regime that is coming in, and we will wait and see. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State gave a commitment that we will revisit the issue three years after the implementation, and we will do so. It is our intention to invest in sports clubs in the way that I have just indicated, not to make things more difficult for them. I believe that, when the new licensing provisions come into operation, we could find a very different picture from that portrayed by the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Bob Blizzard: Another relief that non-profit-making amateur sports clubs have been able to claim is exemption from VAT on building work when they want to build new changing rooms and improve their facilities. It has always been normal practice for them to get that relief, but it now appears that Customs and Excise may take a different view. Will my right hon.
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    Friend discuss that matter with Customs and Excise? Will he look into the case of Kirkley and Pakefield community sports club in my constituency if I give him the details?
    Mr. Caborn: It would be wrong and very treacherous for me to step into the domain of the Chancellor or anyone else, even if my hon. Friend would like me to do so.
    Mr. Bercow: Go on.
    Mr. Caborn: No, I cannot, although I would love to.
    If my hon. Friend writes to me, I will ensure that the information goes to the right quarters.

    Sports Funding (South-West)
    Mr. Anthony Steen: If she will increase the Government's funding commitment for sports facilities in the west country. [137028]
    The Minister for Sport and Tourism (Mr. Richard Caborn): Following Sport England's rationalisation and the establishment of regional sports boards, the majority of funding decisions will be taken at a regional level. Funding allocations have yet to be set by Sport England. The south-west received some 29 community capital awards from Sport England's lottery programme, totalling just over £8.5 million in the last financial year.
    Mr. Steen: Is the Minister aware that selling off school sports fields has accelerated the couch-potato mentality of young people? In fact, nearly 10 per cent. of young people under the age of six are now obese, and more than 50 per cent. of the adult population are considered overweight. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the Food Standards Agency's prophecy that by 2010 health problems and other health-related issues will be costing the taxpayer £3.8 billion? Would it not be better to invest the money now in sports facilities and other physical activity in schools, rather than allowing the taxpayer to spend so much money on rectifying obesity?
    Mr. Caborn: We have had to pick up the bits that the previous Administration left us in 1997. I should make it clear that this is the first time a Government have committed such investment in sport and physical activity. We are doing so not for philanthropic reasons but because obesity is costing the economy some £2 billion. Cases of type 2 diabetes are increasing among our young people, and the projection is that if something is not done about obesity, the economy will have to bear £3.5 billion in related costs by 2010. That is why we are investing in two hours of quality physical activity and sport for every child, every week, from the ages of five to 16; why we are investing £750 million in new sports facilities; and why we are investing the further £100 million that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State secured in respect of the Olympic bid. My

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    announcements on mandatory rate relief, community amateur sports clubs and the £60 million investment in sports clubs are the best song that has been sung on this issue, and the biggest investment in sport for many years.
    Mr. David Heath: Perhaps we could return to the question of why the west country region gets the worst deal from the Government in terms of support for sports. We do not have major stadiums or the same investment in facilities largely because those who would benefit from such projects in terms of dealing with deprivation are spread evenly across the peninsula rather than being congregated in cities. Will the Minister address that underlying and fundamental problem with funding for the west country?
    Mr. Caborn: I would, but the hon. Gentleman is fundamentally wrong. I shall read out the figures for the south-west and compare them with those for the north-east for 2003—04, which some of my hon. Friends will be interested to hear. The total cost of schemes for the north-east was just over £11.4 million, and the total project costs were £37 million. The 29 projects in the south-west cost £8.5 million, and the total project costs were £14.5 million. So the investment—
    Mr. Heath: That is half.
    Mr. Caborn: I should point out to the hon. Gentleman that I accept that there are problems in the south-west—indeed, I have made that point before in respect of football. The south-west has no premier league club, and such clubs are very important to the sporting infrastructure.
    Mr. Bercow: Let us have an Adjournment debate about it, then.
    Mr. Speaker: Order.
    Mr. Caborn: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
    However, in terms of investment in sport, the south-west is no better off, and no worse off, than the rest of the country.

    Museum Collections (Human Remains)
    Michael Fabricant: What plans she has to amend legislation to permit museums to repatriate human remains; and if she will make a statement. [137029]
    The Minister for the Arts (Estelle Morris): I hope to be able to use the Department of Health's proposed Bill on human tissue to relax current statutory prohibitions on the repatriation of human remains.
    Michael Fabricant: I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. Several thousand human remains are held by various British museums, and a number of claims have been made over the years—mainly by native Americans, the Australian Government and the New Zealand Government—for their repatriation. The Government introduced a review two years ago, and 159
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    pages later, that review—the report of the working group on human remains—was published. But the Natural History Museum, which holds most of those remains, says that it achieves nothing, because under the criteria virtually none of the remains would be repatriated. So where are we now?
    Estelle Morris: The hon. Gentleman is still sitting on the Bench behind the Front Bench. That is where he is at the moment.
    The report has been published, there will be a period of consultation and the Government will respond to the report and consultation in due course. I know that the hon. Gentleman has taken a keen interest in this subject, but I do not think that the director of the museum was saying that nothing would be achieved. He was taking issue with one of the recommendations in the report. What has undoubtedly changed is that the Government have said—we agree with the hon. Gentleman about this—that human remains should be able to be repatriated. At the moment, by law, museums cannot do that even if they wish to. I would have hoped that he would welcome that announcement as a major step forward, and also welcome the fact that the Government have taken an early legislative opportunity to make that happen.
    Let us consult and wait for the details of the working party's report. I repeat, however, that it is the Government intention to make sure that, when museums want to repatriate human remains, they will be able to do so. I hope that legislation on that will pass through both Houses of Parliament next Session.
    Miss Julie Kirkbride: Will the right hon. Lady reassure the House that, in seeking to change the law on this important matter, she will pay due regard to the fact that the human remains kept in British museums have as much right to be considered the property of mankind—they possess both our future and our past in their genetic structures—as they have to be repatriated to some ethnic groups who wish to have them taken back?
    Estelle Morris: The hon. Lady puts very well both sides of the argument, and we have to find a way through that. However, it is true that some countries have to seek information from abroad if they wish to examine the remains of indigenous people, because no such remains rest in those countries. That cannot be right. I envisage a situation in which the Natural History museum and the British Museum are willing to repatriate some of the remains if they are legally able to do so. They will be able to do that once the Bill is passed.
    The hon. Lady is absolutely right to suggest that there will be cases in which museums think that research needs to be carried out in this country. Part of the Government's response to the report must deal with the issue of how differences of opinion between the requests and the views of holding museums are to be resolved. I assume that she will continue to take a close interest in that subject.

    Television Reception (Rural Areas)
    David Cairns: What recent discussions she has had with the BBC concerning television reception in rural areas. [137030]
    The Minister for the Arts (Estelle Morris): Under the digital television action plan, we are to determine and agree a target level of UK coverage for digital terrestrial public services post-switchover. We will be discussing this with the BBC and other digital broadcasters.
    David Cairns: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does she not agree that there is now utter confusion in the provision of television signals in this country? We have analogue terrestrial, digital terrestrial, freeview, cable, satellite, in-the-clear and free-to-air. Solus cards that used to be free and gave one all five channels now only provide the BBC channels until one pays £20 to be able to watch the ITV channels, and people now choose satellite and digital because they have to, because they cannot receive a decent signal elsewhere. Would not a way through this confusion be the adoption of the simple principle that, if people pay for a television licence, they should be able to receive a television signal? If they cannot get a TV signal, they should not have to pay for a TV licence.
    Estelle Morris: I am not sure that it is a complicated system. If my hon. Friend wants to return to the days when there was hardly any choice of television channels, the list of ways in which to receive the signals would be shorter than the one that he has just described. I do not think that anybody wants to return there.
    I sympathise absolutely with my hon. Friend, in that many of his constituents are in the 0.6 per cent. of people in this country who do not receive analogue terrestrial coverage. I appreciate their frustration. They are left out in that they do not receive the television signals that most of our constituents probably receive. However, we are in a period of change and many forms of receiving television signals are being introduced to give the public the choice they want of what to watch. That is absolutely right.
    Nothing is set in stone. I know that my hon. Friend is about to meet the BBC to discuss specific issues. We regularly meet the BBC and other broadcasters, and we are in for a period of change. To some extent, we are being held back by the development of the technology that would enable signals to reach the areas that they do not yet reach. I will continue to work with my hon. Friend and broadcasters, and I hope that the particular problems that his constituents experience will not go on for too much longer.
    Mr. Hugo Swire: Access to freeview television is currently something of a postcode lottery. What would the Minister say to my constituents, such as Mrs. Agland of Seaton in East Devon, who wish to access digital programmes but cannot afford to pay for Sky television?
    Estelle Morris: Over the next few years, there will be a development of both digital satellite and digital terrestrial television. I am absolutely certain that in the years to come, the hon. Gentleman's constituents, like
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    all our constituents, will find that they can receive the channels they want. As he knows, digital television coverage is progressing well and the Government are well on course to meet their target of making a decision, if they wish, by 2010. They have made it absolutely clear that the cost for individuals will be subject to the digital plans on which they are currently working, announcements of which will be made in due course.
    Mr. Chris Bryant: The Minister referred to choice in broadcasting, which many hon. Members would agree is great. However, the truth of the matter is that my constituents have absolutely no choice if they are to receive most of the BBC channels and go digital—they have to get a Sky box. Will she speak to the BBC and point out that most people think that if they pay the licence fee, they should be entitled to get the BBC for free? Will she try to disabuse it of the horrible complacency into which it has fallen over the roll-out of digital terrestrial television?
    Estelle Morris: I sympathise with my hon. Friend. When making any recommendations that we can to the BBC, we shall point out the simple fact to which he and my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (David Cairns) have referred. I completely accept that one of the characteristics of public sector broadcasting is that it is a unifying force throughout the country. I accept that it is a problem if some people—no matter how few—cannot access the core provision of television channels. I undertake to do what I can, but there is no easy solution waiting to be announced tomorrow. The matter requires research, investment and, sadly, time.
    Mr. John Whittingdale: Does the Minister accept that people in rural areas who are able to receive television only via satellite will resent having to pay an extra £20 one-off charge on top of the £116 annual fee that they already pay to get the BBC? Rather than charging the viewer, would it not be fairer to meet the cost of the viewing cards out of the licence fee, as at present?
    Estelle Morris: I do not think that that would be the appropriate way forward. I thought that the hon. Gentleman might have congratulated my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on bringing about a solution to the problem caused by the BBC's decision to change satellites earlier this year. I think that his constituents, and most hon. Members' constituents, will feel that paying £20 to receive the choice and channels that they want will represent money well spent.
    Mr. Whittingdale: I do not think that people will think that paying £20 is especially fair, given that they currently do not have to pay anything. Will not the number of people living in rural areas who cannot receive terrestrial or cable television be even greater if the Government go ahead with analogue switch-off? Will the Government ensure that when and if analogue transmission ceases, those who have to buy a satellite receiver will not have to pay far more than those who simply need a freeview box?
    Estelle Morris: We are nowhere near the end of the line on the adaptations that need to be made so that

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    more people may receive digital television. We made it absolutely clear in the switchover plan that the number of people who will be able to receive a digital signal should be the same as the number who can currently receive a terrestrial signal. The hon. Gentleman will see that the percentages will have increased by 2010. There are key decisions to be taken about investment in digital television and the switch from terrestrial. As I said to other hon. Members, we are in a period of change in which there is significant investment. We are making progress year on year in the number of people who have access to digital, and thus the choice that many of us take for granted.

    Sports Involvement (Women)
    Vera Baird: What steps the Department is taking to involve more (a) women and (b) girls in sport. [137031]
    The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Tessa Jowell): My Department and Sport England ensure that public funding will be made available only to those governing bodies with equity agreements in place. Specifically, Sport England is putting £200,000 a year into the Women's Sports Foundation, the organisation that seeks to promote the participation of women in sport, and £180,000 a year into Sporting Equals.
    Vera Baird: I am grateful for that answer. Redcar has quite good women's participation in sport. Indeed, we recently received funding to develop girls' rugby. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would be much easier to involve more women in sport if there were better media coverage of women's sporting events? In particular, will she take up the issue with the BBC, which has a charter commitment to provide balanced viewing? The Women's Sports Foundation is starting a campaign next week to promote better coverage. Will she use her best endeavours to ensure that it has some success?
    Tessa Jowell: My hon. and learned Friend raises two important points. The lack of coverage, or under-representation, of women and their success in sport by the media is a fact, as recent analysis of the coverage of women's success, as opposed to men's success, in the Commonwealth games clearly showed. On the BBC, that is a good example of why the review of its charter will be accompanied by an unprecedented level of public involvement and public consultation so that those issues are raised.

  The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Commissioners, was asked
  CHURCH COMMISSIONERS

    Clergy Pensions
    Mr. Huw Edwards: If he will make a statement about measures to improve the level of clergy pensions. [137043]
    Mr. Gordon Prentice: What steps are being taken to increase the pensions of the clergy. [137047]
    Second Church Estates Commissioner (Mr. Stuart Bell): Following wide consultation on remuneration levels for serving and retired clergy, the Church believes the level of the clergy pension, which includes a lump sum on retirement, is reasonable in relation to the clergy stipend. At a time when many employers are switching to money purchase pension schemes—in effect switching risk on to the employee—the Church stands by its commitment to a defined benefit scheme.
    Mr. Edwards: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer. Does he agree that although the pension for those clergy who achieve maximum service is reasonable, there are concerns about those who do not achieve it either because they have come into the vocation later in life or they are female ordained clergy? Will he consider the circumstances of such people, in particular whether they can transfer their previous pension entitlement into the Church Commissioners' fund?
    Mr. Bell: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that. He will know that pensions increased on 1 April 2003 and a further 3 per cent. increase is planned for April next year. The full service pension will rise to £11,343 per annum and the full-service lump sum to £34,030. In relation to those who joined the clergy at a later date, I confirm that they can transfer their pensions. On the wider point as to whether we should consider the circumstances as they affect their interests, I am happy to give him that assurance.
    Mr. Prentice: You will know, Mr. Speaker, that three years ago responsibility for financing the clergy pensions transferred to parishes. I have been reading the ecclesiastical press and it seems that some well intentioned people believe that wealthy parishes are salting away their surpluses. I want to know where those wealthy parishes are, because it is not a Church-like thing to do. The money should be redistributed as between the wealthy parishes and those that are less well off.
    Mr. Bell: That was a question for you, Mr. Speaker, rather than for me, but I am happy to answer it.
    It is a fact that pensions that have fallen due since 1998 fall on the parishes. Before that date, they stay with the Church Commissioners. Parishes are obliged to meet their commitments. I am not aware of any parish that does that in an unchristian, unfriendly manner.
    Sir Sydney Chapman: Would the Second Church Estates Commissioner agree that the Church Commissioners' ability to help clergy with their stipends and pensions is entirely dependent on returns from their assets, whether in property, equities or whatever? Is it not true that a commendable proportion of the Church Commissioners' assets or income goes to clergy stipends and pensions?
    Mr. Bell: I am grateful, as ever, to the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. He is entirely right that a

    17
    substantial part of our income goes towards meeting those pensions. Over the past few years, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken £20 million from our income, which will change to about £12 million in 2004. That impacts on finances that go towards pensions for clergy and, of course, their wives and dependants.
    Mr. John Bercow: Given that the hon. Gentleman's defence of clergy pensions was subject to the rather critical caveat that those pensions reflected the stipend, can I seek to tempt him to say whether he agrees that clergymen are grossly undervalued in the course of their working lives, so the size of the pensions accorded to them ought to be significantly uprated? In that context, can he advance any moral argument as to why he, I and other right hon. and hon. Members should receive a larger pension than the dedicated moral clergymen of our country?
    Mr. Bell: I am only too happy to answer the hon. Gentleman. The two points, if I may put my lawyer's hat on, are mutually exclusive, and one does not relate to the other. However, the hon. Gentleman is certainly right in his belief that the clergy are undervalued in our parishes. They provide an enormous contact between Church and state, which is valued by everyone. As for the basis for determining the benefits provided by the Church, which consist of a lump sum on retirement plus a pension, we try to take into account all the factors in the interests of the clergy.

  ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE
  The hon. Member for Gosport, representing the Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission, was asked—
  ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE

    Local Government Elections
    Mr. John Robertson: What discussions the commission has had with the Scottish Executive in connection with the single transferable vote and local government elections. [137044]
    Mr. Humfrey Malins: My hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) is abroad on parliamentary business, and I have been asked to reply. The commission has responded to a Scottish Executive consultation exercise on the matter, stating that local government elections in Scotland do not fall within the remit that it has been given by the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, and that as a matter of policy it does not offer views on the merits or otherwise of particular voting systems. Accordingly, the commission offered no substantive views on the use of STV—the single transferable vote—in Scottish local elections.
    John Robertson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, following the introduction of the single transferable vote in the Scottish local government elections, we will have four different kinds of electoral system within Scottish boundaries? As Scottish parliamentary elections and
    18
    local government elections are taking place on the same day, would the Committee consider looking at the possibility of both using the same system, namely STV?
    Mr. Malins: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but in response to the suggestion that the voting system for the Scottish Parliament should be changed, the commission has said that as a matter of policy it does not express a view on the merits or otherwise of particular voting systems. However, he has made a fair point about the electorate's ability to understand what is going on, and the confusion that may arise if many different systems are operating. The commission's research reports, which were published last year, considered public attitudes to voting systems in the 1999 elections, and showed that understanding of the system was a factor that affected the decision about whether or not to vote in a small percentage of cases. The commission's statutory reports on the 2003 elections in Scotland and Wales will certainly draw on the results of research on public opinion to measure the electorate's comprehension of different voting systems.
    Pete Wishart: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if there were STV for local authority elections in Scotland there would be an end to those undemocratic, monolithic Labour councils, such as the one in Glasgow, which received a minority of the vote but is controlled with a massive majority?
    Mr. Malins: I can do no more than repeat that the commission has said that it does not express a view on the merits or otherwise of particular voting systems, but the hon. Gentleman has made his point in his usual forceful way.

    Postal Voting
    Huw Irranca-Davies: What discussions the Committee has had with the Electoral Commission in respect of all-postal ballots. [137045]
    Mr. Malins: The statutory remit of the Speaker's Committee does not normally require it to discuss such matters with the Electoral Commission. The commission has recommended that, if all-postal voting is backed by changes in the law to minimise the risk of electoral abuses, it should become the standard approach in local elections in England and Wales. It has been directed by the Government to recommend which regions are most suitable to conduct all-postal ballots in the European parliamentary elections in 2004.
    Huw Irranca-Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that answer. Does he agree, on behalf of the Committee, that what will be needed in whichever regions are chosen is a certain surefootedness and dynamism, and a willingness to innovate—all characteristics that we saw in abundance on the rugby field in the Welsh team at the weekend? In his discussions with the Electoral Commission, will he therefore convey the very strong support among Welsh Labour MPs for all-postal ballots in Wales next year?
    Mr. Malins: I shall certainly convey those sentiments, and I join the hon. Gentleman in saying that I thought that the Wales team performed absolutely brilliantly in the rugby. If I am allowed to say so, being a quarter Welsh, I played for London Welsh schoolboys a long time ago. I shall pass on his points, which are well made.
    Mr. David Heath: Are the hon. Gentleman and his Committee content that, in the studies that the Electoral Commission is conducting on the pilots, it has been specifically excluded by the Government from considering whether there should be pilots at all, why there should be three, the detailed form of postal or electronic voting, and whether it should consult all returning officers after the event rather than only a selected few? Is he content that that will give a true picture of what is going on?
    Mr. Malins: The hon. Gentleman refers to the paucity of pilot schemes in Wales. Election pilot schemes have been permitted at local elections in Wales for the past three years, and the law provides that the local authority concerned has to apply to the Government for permission to conduct a pilot scheme. On the balance of his question, I shall be happy to ensure that the chairman of the Electoral Commission writes to him with a very full response to a point well made.
    Mr. Michael Jabez Foster: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, especially in residential homes, abuse is possible with regard to all-postal vote ballots? Does he agree that, without imposing too onerous a task on the Electoral Commission, there should be some sort of monitoring of the mental capacity of those who are offered votes, especially when they have not asked for them?
    Mr. Malins: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point about the need to ensure security, the absence of fraud, and so on, in relation to postal votes. As to the risks concerning places of multiple occupation, to minimise the risk of fraud in general in relation to postal votes, the commission is currently developing a series of tools for use by electoral staff, including best practice guidance on multiple occupation households. He makes a fair point.
    Sir Patrick Cormack: Does my hon. Friend accept that many hon. Members on both sides of the House view with genuine concern a move towards all-postal ballots, because whatever is done, there is bound to be greater scope for abuse? Will he further accept that the commission might do better to
    20
    turn its attention to the question of making voting compulsory if it wishes to increase turnout, rather than introducing all-postal ballots?
    Mr. Malins: In relation to my hon. Friend's observation on making voting compulsory, that is not a matter that has crossed my path so far. I do not believe that we have any particular views about it, but I hear what he has to say. He said that postal voting is a significant issue. There are very different views about this matter. Many hon. Members take the view that the old-fashioned system of voting is absolutely right. It is inevitable that we will move towards postal votes for all sorts of elections, as the years pass. I think that he will agree that it is critical that we maintain security, safety and the absence of fraud whenever we can.
    Kevin Brennan: What consultations the Committee has had with the Electoral Commission on all-postal vote pilots for the European elections in Wales. [137046]
    Mr. Malins: The statutory remit of the Speaker's Committee does not normally require it to discuss such matters with the Electoral Commission. However, the commission is currently undertaking at the behest of the Government a consultative exercise on which European Parliament regions might conduct electoral pilots in 2004. I believe that recommendations will be presented to the Government by 8 December 2003.
    Kevin Brennan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Further to the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), there is an old saying, "Three tries for a Welshman", but on some occasions even that is not enough.
    It would be a good idea for the Electoral Commission to recommend all-postal ballots in next year's elections for three reasons—namely, that three elections will be held at the same time: European elections, local government elections and community council elections. That is unique in the United Kingdom. Will the hon. Gentleman convey the strong message from MPs in Wales that that makes Wales a unique area in which to experiment by including it in the pilot?
    Mr. Malins: If there were 10 points for a try, a different team would have been in the semi-finals.
    The commission is well aware of the strong support from many Labour Members of Parliament for the postal pilot schemes. I understand that it has received representations from several organisations and individuals in Wales: it will take those into account when it makes its recommendations to the Government. The hon. Gentleman speaks for many of his colleagues in advocating his cause, and he does so with passion and a great deal of diligence.

Orders of the Day
  Water Bill [Lords]
  As amended in the Standing Committee, considered.
  Water Bill [Lords]
    New Clause 2

      COMMENCEMENT AND EXPIRY OF LICENCES
      'After section 46 of the WRA there is inserted—
      "46B Commencement and expiry of licences
      (1) A licence granted under this Chapter to abstract water—

      (a) to prevent interference with any mining, quarrying or engineering operations (whether underground or surface); or

      (b) to prevent damage to works resulting from such operations ('de-watering abstractions'),

      shall be stated to take effect to expire simultaneously with any planning permission or any extension or amendment to any planning permission granted for such mining, quarrying or engineering operations instead of a specific date, or dates, in the licence for the de-watering abstraction itself.
      (2) In all other aspects, reference in this chapter to the date on which a licence is stated to take effect and on which it expires, insofar as a licence for the de-watering abstraction is concerned, refers to the commencement and expiry dates comprised in any planning permission authorising the mining, quarrying or engineering operations relevant to the de-watering abstraction.".'.—[Mr. Wiggin.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      3.31 pm
      Mr. Bill Wiggin: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      Mr. Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
      New clause 3—Renewal of licences (mines and quarries)—
      'After section 46 of the WRA there is inserted—
      "46ZA Renewal of licences (mines and quarries)

      (1) An application to renew a licence granted under this Chapter to abstract water—

      (a) to prevent interference with any mining, quarrying or engineering operations (whether underground or surface); or

      (b) to prevent damage to works resulting from such operations ('de-watering abstractions'),

      shall be subject to the three tests specified in subsection (2).

      (2) Those tests are that it can be reasonably demonstrated that—

      (a) environmental sustainability can be achieved;

      (b) the need for the licence is demonstrable; and

      (c) the water extracted under the licence is being and will be used efficiently and effectively.

      (3) If the tests specified in subsection (2) are met, the licence will be renewed for a minimum of six years.

      (4) Where an application to renew a licence under the preceding provisions of this section is refused, a person who made the application may appeal to the Secretary of State within such period and subject to such procedures as may be prescribed by order.

      22
      46ZB Renewal of licences (mines and quarries): compensation
      Where an application to renew a licence is refused under section 46ZA above, or the terms of the licence are varied and the effect of the resultant restriction or working rights would be such as to prejudice adversely to an unreasonable degree—

      (a) the economic viability of operating the site; or

      (b) the asset value of the site,

      compensation shall be payable in accordance with arrangements prescribed by order.".'.
      New clause 12—Presumption of renewal of licences—
      'After section 38 of the WRA there is inserted—
      "38A Presumption of renewal of licences
      There shall be a presumption of renewal of a licence, subject to the provisions of section 38(1A) above, where the Agency is satisfied that—

      (a) abstraction under the new licence is environmentally sustainable;

      (b) there is a continued justification of need; and

      (c) water abstracted under the renewed licence will be used in an efficient manner.".'.

      Government amendments Nos. 54 to 58.
      Amendment No. 10, in clause 6, page 7, line 23, at end insert—
      '(1A) Where the construction of a bore hole in connection with an exempt abstraction could affect the essential characteristics of water resources used by the licensed natural water abstractor, the consent of the Environment Agency must be sought.'.
      Amendment No. 24, in page 8, line 5, at end insert
      'if it is to address an issue of national importance'.
      Government amendment No. 59.
      Amendment No. 25, in clause 14, page 17, line 39, leave out 'in prescribed cases' and insert
      'where it would be against the interests of national security'.
      Government amendments Nos. 60 to 70.
      Amendment No. 4, in clause 17, page 21, line 42, leave out 'four' and insert 'six'.
      Government amendments Nos. 71 to 73.
      Amendment No. 9, in clause 19, page 23, line 31, at end insert—
      '( ) The expiry date shall take into account the availability of water in the source of supply to which the licence applies and the investment needs of the applicant.'.
      Amendment No. 11, in page 23, line 33, at end insert—
      '(5B) In determining the period that a licence under this Chapter shall remain in force, the Agency shall take into account—

      (a) the life expectancy of any associated infrastructure works (existing and prospective),

      (b) the costs of those works (actual and projected), and

      (c) the period over which these costs may be reasonably be expected to have to be recovered.'.

      Government amendment No. 74.
      Amendment No. 12, in clause 20, page 24, line 27, at end insert—
      '(5) There shall be a presumption that any licence in respect of which the conditions of this section are met shall be renewed unless the Agency is able to show that revocation is necessary in order to protect any waters or underground strata, or any flora or fauna dependent on them, from serious damage.'.
      Government amendments Nos. 75 to 82.

      23
      Amendment No. 126, in clause 24, page 31, line 11, at end insert—
      '(5A) In this section "loss or damage" shall mean loss occasioned by physical damage to tangible property.'.
      Government amendments No. 83 and 84.
      Amendment No. 32, in clause 25, page 31, line 43, at end insert
      'and
      (b) at the end there is inserted "except in the case of licences where water would otherwise be abstracted for use on land which is subject to phytosanitary restrictions.".'.
      Amendment No. 33, in clause 27, page 33, line 17, at end insert
      'or such later date as the Secretary of State may by order prescribe'.
      Government amendment No. 85.
      Amendment No. 26, in clause 30, page 36, line 39, leave out '£20,000' and insert '£50,000'.
      Government amendments Nos. 117 and 104 to 106.
      Mr. Wiggin: The new clause would ensure that the commencement and expiry of abstractor licences occurred simultaneously with planning permission, so that as long as a business had planning permission it should be able to go ahead with abstracting water if it is environmentally safe to do so. If the dates of an abstraction licence are separate from those of the planning permission, the abstraction licence may expire before the planning application. That undermines the long-term certainty of a water abstraction business, restricting its competitive edge. Businesses wishing to abstract should have just one course of action to take. For quarries and mineral water companies, for example, the legislative burden is not sufficiently streamlined and may jeopardise their ability to compete on a level playing field with companies from abroad. The new clause would ensure that the expiration date of a licence must take into account the commencement and expiry dates of any planning permission. That would be fairer on abstractors, who would have a much more stable basis on which to attract investors. Long-term industries such as water abstraction, watercress growers and quarries need assurances of certainty, but the Bill does not offer them. The new clause would provide them with that assurance and with the certainty that they need for long-term investment.
      New clause 3 is focused on the quarrying industry and its need for certainty in the renewal of its de-watering transfer licences. It would include in the Bill three clear tests by which a renewal licence may be granted. To make it fair to the industry, the presumption of renewal needs to be made explicit by including in the Bill test renewals such as those set out in "Taking Water Responsibly". The industry is well aware of the assurances that the Minister has given to the House and to the other place. I am also conscious that during the past month my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O'Brien) and the hon. Members for Sherwood (Paddy Tipping) and for High Peak (Tom Levitt) have
      24
      taken part in meetings with industry representatives in the Minister's office, and that the assurances given have been confirmed in writing. That may provide safeguards for the immediate future, but they have no long-term credibility. The new clause seeks to redress that. Equally, it would include the steps for appeal and compensation to be taken when a licence is refused renewal under the tests. It is imperative that the presumption of renewal is included in the Bill, not hidden away in statements or policy documents—otherwise, long-term industries will not have any real assurances that their investments will be safe.
      The second part of the new clause would ensure that if a de-watering transfer licence is not renewed or the Environment Agency changes the conditions, thereby making an operation unviable, the operator can claim compensation. The problem with the Bill as it stands is that the agency can give an operator six years' notice of non-renewal and simply not renew and not provide compensation. That is unacceptable, especially when the agency is clearly a law unto itself and not directly accountable to the House. The new clause would put in place the genuine assurances of licence renewal, appeal and compensation that the water abstraction sector needs.
      Mr. John Bercow: It is clear that the new clause is extremely well thought through, but my brow is furrowed by my hon. Friend's reference to circumstances in which exploration takes place and a licence is not renewed. It sounds deeply unjust. Is my hon. Friend telling me that there is no right of appeal?
      Mr. Wiggin: My hon. Friend is right to have a furrowed brow about the Bill. Indeed, my brow has been furrowed for some time. It is especially difficult for those who abstract water because he is right about the difficulties that they will face if their licences are not renewed. There is an appeals procedure but I believe that it is to the Environment Agency, not the Secretary of State.
      The Minister for the Environment (Mr. Elliot Morley): It is to the Secretary of State.
      Mr. Wiggin: The Minister corrects me, but a lesser agent of the Secretary of State would fulfil the duty. The essence of the problem is not so much that licences cannot be renewed—environmental damage may be taking place—but the lack of compensation. I am therefore grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. As usual, with his incisive mind he has put his finger on the nub of the problem instantly.
      Amendment No. 10 deals with the fears of drinking water abstractors, who are rightly subject to an enormous number of inspections to ensure that their water quality is the finest. However, if abstractors of less than 20 cu m sink a borehole into the substrata and start abstracting water for use as drinking water, the licensed abstractor's water quality could be affected. The safeguards in the Bill are not quite strong enough to prevent the risk of small abstractors causing damage to the business of water bottling. I am worried about the risk of others sinking boreholes into the same substrata as the original business, thereby damaging the quality of the water that it abstracts.

      25
      Many bottled water companies bottle their water at source and depend on the spring to market and sell the brand—for example, Hildon and Radnor Hills. They cannot move their water aquifer. Water bottling operations are extremely expensive to start up. As long-term investments, they need the protection that the amendment offers. It would enable the Environment Agency to police abstraction for the good of our environmental quality, which must be the overriding consideration. The Environment Agency should monitor abstractors, no matter how small, for the damage that they cause the environment. Damage done to a business aquifer by another drilling into it could take a company out of business. That problem must be resolved but the Bill does not currently address it.
      It is vital to support the British bottled water industry. Domestic bottled water companies comprise nearly 80 per cent. of the total that we drink in the United Kingdom. The issue therefore affects us all. Now is an opportune moment to have a quick sip of water. We must not only protect the industry, but ensure its long-term plan for the future.
      The licensing that the Bill introduces raises concerns that the scope of the investment will be limited. Small, unlicensed boreholes must not be able to undermine a company's investment. I know that the Minister has sympathy with the point. In Committee, he said that if there were problems the Environment Agency would have the power to lower the existing thresholds to reduce the number of boreholes. He said that the agency had powers to deal with problems should they arise. If so, why does not the Bill include such a provision? We want to prevent damage to the aquifer and ensure that the Environment Agency has more responsibility to protect it. The amendment would protect the important British drinking water industry and ensure the high quality of our environment through giving the Environment Agency such policing powers.
      Amendment No. 4 deals with a time limit on licences that will be certain for only 12 years. Clause 17(8)(a) provides for a time limit of four years for those who are not using their licence. That reflects neither the seven-year weather cycle nor the catchment abstraction management strategy. The amendment, which provides for a time limit of six years, takes into account the extended period that allows for crop rotation. That was part of the Government's intention and would also influence their ability to license genetically modified crops.
      Reasons for non-use of a licence might be as basic as having sufficient rainfall as to render irrigation unnecessary, or growing another crop on the land due to the basic rules of crop rotation under good agricultural practice to avoid the build-up of, for example, pests and diseases in the soil. A much more serious reason might be a the presence of a notifiable disease such as potato brown rot having resulted in a ban on the extraction of water from water courses for use on vulnerable crops.
      In Committee, the Minister managed only to fumble his way through this issue and did not give us a good enough reason why the limit should be four years. He stated that the four-year period could be extended by the Environment Agency if the licence holder had a legitimate case for wanting a longer period, but what
      26
      qualifies as a legitimate case for extension? This is all a bit vague and uncertain, and we should like a provision in the Bill that would clarify the matter.
      The Minister's argument in Committee for the reduction from seven years to four was that it struck a balance between meeting the needs of the abstractor and being fair to those who wanted to start abstraction but were unable to do so because others were just sitting on their licences. He then admitted, however, that there had been a grand total of zero incidences of people being denied licences for abstraction because others were holding on to unused ones, thereby undermining his own argument. My amendment to change the time limit from four years to six would allow for changing cycles, which the licence holder would deal with, and bring the provision into line with the catchment management scheme.
      Amendments Nos. 9, 11 and 12 also deal with the time periods relating to licences, which are currently too short in that they are meaningful for only 12 years. Amendment No. 9 seeks to ensure that the expiry date on licences takes into account water availability and the investment needs of the abstractor. Amendment No. 11 would ensure that the life expectancy of associated infrastructure works was taken into account by the Environment Agency, in that it should make a decision on the life of an abstraction licence only when it had considered the infrastructure costs and investments associated with the abstraction. That would provide the benefit of a more consistent and transparent framework for decision making. The British Soft Drinks Association is extremely concerned about this matter as that industry is dependent on high-cost machinery, and that is not reflected in the length of time a licence lasts. The length of a licence must take into account the type of investment involved and compensation when licences are cancelled.
      Amendment No. 12 seeks to write a presumption of renewal into the Bill. In Committee, the Minister read out the four test criteria for consideration of licences longer than 12 years, as set down in the policy document "Taking Water Responsibly". He also read out two sets of criteria to comfort companies that have a presumption of renewal. These are clear tests, which is why they should be included in the Bill rather than in separate documents, which would be most unfair to companies that would consequently have to ask for investment on the basis of trust, as the abstractors would not be properly financially protected in the legislation. We want to amend this unreasonable and disproportionate provision.
      Furthermore, the reason given by the Minister for not putting such measures into the Bill was that the tests for renewal could be changed at a later date, which would create a further fundamental problem for anyone investing in an affected business. The Government have completely failed to consider the effect that this uncertainty would have on businesses that were unable to find willing investors because the measures could be altered. My amendment would ensure that abstraction licences would take into account longer-term considerations by putting the presumption of renewal and the compensatory element into the Bill.

      27
      Amendment No. 32 would retain the seven-year period during which compensation would be available on the removal of a licence due to non-use, plant health reasons or the more normal crop rotation reasons. The Bill would reduce the period from seven years to four.
      Amendment No. 33 seeks to ensure that the revocation of any licence causing damage would be undertaken only when a thorough examination under the habitats directive of all sites had been completed, rather than trying to do so on an arbitrary basis on 15 July 2012 as is provided for in the Bill. The Minister and the Environment Agency should have some flexibility in the Bill to avoid a potentially difficult situation in 11 years' time if, due to unforeseen circumstances, the assessment of an abstraction licence had been delayed and abstractors had been caught by a guillotine. The addition of such a measure to the Bill would provide assurances to all those involved. The amendment does not seek to set a later date, or even to remove the right of the Environment Agency to revoke a licence that is causing serious environmental damage; it would simply provide a mechanism for the Minister to delay, should that become necessary.
      3.45 pm
      Experience has shown that deadlines do slip. In that event, such a serious consequence as the removal of a valuable property right would not be acceptable without being based on transparent and robust examination of the facts. Any removal of the right of abstraction must be supported by robust scientific evidence, and not driven merely by the precautionary principle or a looming deadline.
      The revocation of a licence is a serious matter, especially when the continuation of a producer's business depends on access to water. It is clearly not in the abstractor's interest to cause serious environmental damage, and it must be a minority of licences that fall into this category. Sustainable abstraction is the goal that the Environment Agency, farmers and growers work towards, and should not be jeopardised by a last-minute administrative panic by the regulator, who is bound by a rigid end-date. Our proposal would allow the flexibility that is reasonable.
      Norman Baker: We are under some time pressure, especially as many Members will probably want to speak about fluoride, so I shall be fairly brief.
      I am grateful to the Government for tabling the programme motion last week. That helped a little. I am bound to say, however, that a day and a half for discussion would have been more appropriate than a day, which is why my colleagues and I voted against the motion.
      The hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin) was right to raise the presumption of renewal of licences. New clause 12, tabled by me and by my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Sue Doughty), seeks to achieve approximately the same end. It takes its wording from the Environment Agency's guidelines on the presumption of renewal. Many industries requiring licences have expressed a fear that it will be difficult to obtain investment with time-limited licences. That
      28
      applies to the watercress industry, in which my hon. Friends the Members for Mid-Dorset and North Poole (Mrs. Brooke) and for Winchester (Mr. Oaten) have rightly expressed an interest. It also applies to quarrying, which I know interests my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath). He has been assiduous in protecting the industry in his constituency.
      We should strike a balance between environmental protection and the necessary limiting of licences, and providing a degree of certainty for businesses so that they can plan ahead. That means legislating for a presumption of renewal such as that in new clause 12. Such a move would go a long way towards satisfying industries that have rightly and understandably expressed concern, while also protecting the Government's agenda.
      Amendment No. 26 seeks to increase the maximum penalty for those who fail to deal properly with enforcement notices served on them. There is a great deal of money to be made in many industries, and it is wrong for people to be able to calculate that failing to reply to a notice is more beneficial financially than replying. Amendments Nos. 24 and 25 simply seek to tie down the issue of when the Secretary of State should be able to exercise what is, in the Bill, a wide discretion by limiting the matters in question to those involving national security. In Committee the Minister indicated that national security was the reason for the provision in the Bill, and no one dissented at the time. The amendments seek to prevent it from being interpreted too widely.
      Amendment No. 126 deals with the watercress industry, about which my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Dorset and North Poole may wish to speak later.
      These are modest amendments, but I think that they will go a long way towards improving the Bill, and I hope the Government will view them sympathetically.
      Mr. David Heath: I want to say a little about quarry de-watering, in which, as the Minister knows, I take some interest. I know that the Minister and his colleagues have been very active in trying to discuss it with the industry, and to find a way out of the impasse that has developed.
      The issue is simply stated. The difference between the lifetime of a de-watering licence and the lifetime of a permission for mineral extraction means that there can be no certainty, which is a necessary component if investment is to be made in a quarrying undertaking. That has a knock-on effect on the company's profitability and on the more general environmental interests of the type of community that I represent. The Minister will know that probably the highest concentration of limestone extraction workings in the country is found in the east Mendips. I accept some of the reasons why the Minister would reject establishing a link—I realise that it would set a precedent for other industries—but if there is no link and no clear presumption in favour of renewal, certain problems will arise.
      First, as I said, it will be difficult for companies to make the investment decisions that they need to make when approaching a new permission, which will have a knock-on effect on the profitability and viability of the

      29
      industry. I have some experience of this issue, having sat on a minerals planning authority for 12 years and gone through a long phase of arm-wrestling in some cases, co-operation in others, with the quarrying industry to establish a sensible regime for the granting of permissions. The second problem I foresee is that if quarrying companies cannot go deeper and use the present spatial extent of their permissions to go below the water table, which inevitably requires a degree of water abstraction, their alternative is to use extant planning permissions to go wider. Often, those extant planning permissions are not in areas that the local community, the local planning authority or the Government want the industry to turn to for the stone reserves that national and local interests require.
      The issue harks back to interim development orders and the regime with which the Minister is familiar, which has produced difficulties over the years. I vividly recall the long debate that we in Somerset had before giving permission for the first sub-water table working. We had difficulty identifying the hydrogeology of the east Mendips and determining whether we would destroy aquifers and what the long-term consequences would be. It seems to me that, despite the undoubted difficulties of sub-water table undertakings, managing them in an environmentally sensible way is probably preferable to the alternative, which is opportunistic use of existing planning permissions balanced by neither a compensatory regime nor a control regime.
      Mr. Paul Tyler: As one who represents another part of the country with quarrying interests, I strongly support my hon. Friend's views. Does he agree that this is a classic case of, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"? The Environment Agency is happy with the way in which the regimes are working, and the lack of synchronisation between the existing regimes and the proposed new regimes in terms of time scale is extremely worrying from the point of view of effective planning.
      Mr. Heath: I agree. That is the difficulty we face. We do not want to throw the doors wide open to anyone to abstract water over any period simply because they have a planning permission. I understand the Government's position, which is shared by my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker). However, there are differences between the quarrying industry and other industries that might seek abstraction licences. Essentially, quarrying is a non-consumptive industry. First, it does not take the water away, which would be a clear potential environmental threat, but stores it and replaces it in a manner determined via the licence and permission. Secondly, a quarrying company has few alternatives. If a company that wants to abstract water for its use cannot do so because of an environmental licensing argument, it can go elsewhere, but a quarry cannot go elsewhere. It remains where it is and it has to be de-watered; otherwise, it is a large hole with water at the bottom and is of no use to anyone. There is a case for individual treatment of the quarrying industry.
      I have examined the amendments and new clauses carefully. I can understand the argument of the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin) in support of new clause 2, but I also understand why the Government may not be entirely satisfied with it. I must tell the hon.
      30
      Gentleman that I am worried about the compensation provisions of new clause 3 because I have some experience of the effect of compensation on the quashing of inappropriate interim development orders. In fact, it paralysed the planning authorities and prevented them from taking any sensible decisions on behalf of local communities simply because the costs were out of all proportion to the resources available to the local community. If I have a quibble, it is simply that. I am aware of that particular difficulty.
      I am certainly taken by the Liberal Democrat new clause 12, which is very simple and states what we believe to be the policy of the agency, on which the Minister has provided assurances, and we would like it to be incorporated in the Bill. I enthusiastically support new clause 12, not only in the interests of the industry, which is important in my constituency, but in the interests of the local environment.
      Mrs. Annette L. Brooke: I wish to speak briefly to amendment No. 126, which was tabled by me and by my hon. Friends the Members for Winchester (Mr. Oaten), for Lewes (Norman Baker) and for Guildford (Sue Doughty). It is similar to an amendment that was moved in Committee, but it has been reworked to reflect the ensuing debate.
      The amendment is designed to draw attention to the fact that loss or damage is not defined in the clause, and that consequently it could become a charter for claims against long-established and ecologically valuable businesses such as watercress growers. Special natural conditions have led to the bulk of UK watercress growing occurring in Hampshire, Wiltshire and Dorset. In Dorset, watercress is grown in Bere Regis. It is a long-established and sustainable activity, but the Bill has created concerns about its future.
      I thank the Minister for meeting representatives from the industry, me and hon. Members with constituencies in Hampshire. However, concerns remain about clause 24, which provides a new means for persons who suffer loss or damage arising from the abstraction of water to bring a claim against the extractor. Previously, the grant of a licence by the Environment Agency was a defence, and any action had to he taken against the Environment Agency for issuing the licence in the first place. The National Farmers Union is concerned that watercress growers might be exposed to unreasonable claims from those who might perceive that their property value has been adversely affected by variations in the flow of watercourses and winterbournes.
      Officials from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs have agreed that there was no intention for the legislation to provide a means of prosecution of business by residents in an area where the change of watercourses or winterbournes was felt to affect the amenity value of properties by removing a desirable characteristic such as the noise of a babbling brook in the garden. By their very nature, many watercourses on chalk down land are intermittent and the extraction of ground water by a watercress farm will not be the only factor in determining how long and how high such a stream will run.
      Subsequently, officials said that they did not feel that such claims were likely, but the Watercress Association has already heard of homeowners who want to take

      31
      legal action against businesses for precisely that reason—despite the positive contribution of the industry to employment, tourism, inward investment, ecological gains and the preservation of a traditional industry. I hope that the Minister can respond positively today and provide further reassurances to watercress growers.
      4 pm
      Mr. Morley: I was very interested in the points put forward by hon. Members because those points were not unreasonable, and it might be helpful if I repeat the assurances that I have given the industry groups that have come to see me about a number of issues addressed in new clauses 2, 3 and 12 and amendments Nos. 9, 11 and 12.
      It might be helpful if I first stress some of the safeguards in the system. I know that hon. Members are united in the desire to ensure that the Bill is an effective and sustainable resource management tool for a resource that is under increasing pressure of demand. That aim is not particularly controversial. Indeed, I am glad to say that the various industry groups have been united in saying that they support the principles behind the Bill. Not unreasonably, they want some safeguards for their own sectors and I understand that. I have tried to go as far as I can in providing safeguards without undermining the basic principle of the Bill, which is sustainable water management. I shall give details of some of the safeguards for the benefit of hon. Members.
      First, new licence applicants can provide a business case to the Environment Agency to support the need for a licence with a longer duration. The agency must have regard to all relevant considerations and if there is a strong business case for a licence longer than 12 years—which is a guideline only, and not set in stone—the agency can take that case into account.
      Secondly, as I have stressed on several occasions, the policy presumption is in favour of licence renewal. That was initially set out, as the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin) said, in the Government's policy document, "Taking Water Responsibly" in 1999. If a licence is still required and water is being used efficiently, the licence will be severely curtailed or not renewed only if the activities are causing unacceptable damage to the environment. Indeed, companies will have opportunities to discuss mitigation measures, which, in some cases, may not lead to curtailment. However, the means to curtail or refuse a licence is a powerful tool to enable the Environment Agency to deal with unsustainable extraction of water, as has happened in some cases. Abstractors will be given six years' notice of likely non-renewal or changes in the terms of their licence, which will give them time to find a sustainable arrangement, such as a negotiated solution with the Environment Agency.
      As the hon. Gentleman mentioned, rights of appeal to the Secretary of State already exist under the Water Resources Act 1991 in relation to agency decisions on the granting of licences, including licence length and licence revocation or variation. The Bill does not take
      32
      those rights away. Therefore, rights of appeal exist if abstractors feel aggrieved by the Environment Agency's decision.
      Mr. Wiggin: I apologise for missing the first 30 seconds of the Minister's speech. Why is it important that the safeguards that he has just mentioned—I am sure that the industry is grateful for them—are not included in the Bill?
      Mr. Morley: To put it in a nutshell, it is to do with the Environment Agency's need for flexibility and the risks of restraint and unforeseen consequences if such requirements are included in the Bill.
      Paddy Tipping: My hon. Friend met representatives from the Quarry Products Association and subsequently wrote to its chairman, Lord Sutherland. Where will the Bill leave the quarrying industry? It is right that new licences can be for a longer period. It is also right that the presumption will be that licences will be renewed. However, is it not the case that in only three instances the Environment Agency has been concerned about water abstraction by quarrying and that all were resolved satisfactorily by technical solutions? Can my hon. Friend give the industry an assurance that it will have a long-term future and the opportunity to make long-term investment?
      Mr. Morley: My hon. Friend, like my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Tom Levitt) and the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath), is concerned about quarrying, and I understand that. I believe, of course, that quarrying has a long-term future in this country. The idea of putting points in writing to the Quarry Products Association, after my meetings with members on both sides of the question and with the association, was to clarify formally what is intended in the Bill. It is important to any company or trade organisation to have such clarification, and the industry has what I am saying now, on the official record, and what I said in the letter, which gave the reassurances that the QPA sought. There is a fair degree of flexibility in the Bill for dealing with a range of issues.
      There are compensation provisions in the Water Resources Act 1991 for when licence revocation or modification results in loss or damage. Clause 102 of the Bill provides powers to make regulations governing compensation to be paid to any previously exempt abstractor who is not granted a licence or is granted a licence that will constrain his activity when the Bill takes effect. In addition, the Environment Agency has published draft guidance on how it will address the duration and renewal of licences. The agency will review, consult on and reissue that guidance once the Bill has been passed. It will take account of views expressed in Committee and on Report. We believe that the legislation has been framed in such a way as to provide an equitable, flexible and sustainable approach to abstraction licences.
      Mr. Heath: The Minister is being very helpful. Will he say something about the relationship, if any, between the Agency's approach to licensing and the minerals plans for specific areas? Is there any correlation between the two? Does he expect one to inform the other?
      Mr. Morley: One will inform the other on the planning boundaries and the long-term availability of mineral resources. One of the new clauses suggests that we should link the length of planning permissions to the length of licences. I cannot accept that, and I shall explain why. New clauses 2, 3 and 12 and amendments Nos. 9, 11 and 12 would all limit the Bill's operations and would fetter the Environment Agency's ability to manage our water resources sustainably. They would also fetter the Secretary of State at appeal. That is my concern about them.
      There is a question of balance, which has come up a few times. We must recognise the needs of industries that may be affected by our proposals, and we have tried to take them into account. The other side of the balance must be sustainable management. The Bill is about giving the Environment Agency the tools to do its job, and to do it effectively, while still providing the checks and balances on the agency's operations that one would expect in a democratic society. Getting the balance right is the problem, but I believe that it is right in the Bill, right in how we have tried to take account of the legitimate concerns of hon. Members, right in how I have given assurances on the record and in writing, and right in how concerns will be addressed in the Agency's guidelines.
      Norman Baker: In what way would new clause 12 fetter decision making? Surely it provides the balance that the Minister wants by containing a presumption that licences will be renewed while setting out conditions under which they may not be.
      Mr. Morley: I shall come to that point. I think in a linear way and the hon. Gentleman keeps jumping in and throwing me off my nice linear thought patterns. I assure him that I shall get there, along my linear course, so he should not worry.
      New clause 2 would remove from the Environment Agency responsibility for determining the time limit applying to licences granted for de-watering activities. The effect would be to transfer to planning authorities the responsibility for determining a key abstraction licence condition—the duration of an abstraction licence. It is not appropriate for the planning authorities rather than the Environment Agency to have that responsibility. Furthermore, if planning authorities were concerned about possible water problems, they might restrict the length of the permission. The proposal could have that unforeseen consequence.
      Mr. Wiggin: The Minister may have missed the point. The whole point of planning is to allow a company to know how long its business will be viable. If the planning authority has to take de-watering into consideration and has to issue planning permission of an appropriate length, investors can look at the situation and decide whether they want to invest in the company. We should not have that certainty under the two-part planning system. The Minister may have put his finger on the nub of the problem but he has not come to the right conclusion.
      Mr. Morley: I understand the hon. Gentleman's point although I do not necessarily accept that it is as significant as he thinks. Companies may require
      34
      different permits for a range of operations. Some permits are annual and some are reviewed and renewed from time to time. I come back to the point about the presumption of renewal, which provides some comfort in relation to long-term planning. As I said, if the business case merits it, the length of the abstraction licence may be greater in some circumstances. The Environment Agency is always consulted about mineral plans, as are mineral planning authorities about catchment abstraction management. There is a link between the two, which relates to the question put by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome.
      Mr. Tyler: The Minister has come to the point about which I asked my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath): if it ain't broke, why fix it? The Minister has just said that the Environment Agency has a proper and effective role, so why must we change it?
      Mr. Morley: Because there have been some severe problems. My hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Paddy Tipping) is right. Offhand, I can think of only three cases that were resolved. The Environment Agency has been asking for those powers, so the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) should not think that everything in the mines sector is problem-free. If people are de-watering, they are abstracting from the aquifer. There may be ways of mitigating that, as the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome pointed out, but it should be within a regime that gives the Environment Agency some tools for managing the process. That is an important general principle in the Bill and I think that it is accepted; we are talking about the detail in certain circumstances. Although I understand the points that are being made, I cannot accept them. I feel that we have addressed the concerns raised in the discussions and that the balance is right.
      New clause 3 would introduce two new features, both concerned with the renewal of time-limited licences and both relating only to quarries. Our provisions are intended to create a system for sustainable water resources management that applies to all abstractors. There cannot be a separate regime with one sector being treated differently.
      The new clause would provide that compensation be paid to a quarry if a licence was not renewed or if it was curtailed. However, the only reason that a licence for quarry de-watering would not be renewed or would be curtailed would be that there was an environmental problem that could not be overcome. We should not compensate people for causing environmental damage. That is another principle in the Bill: the polluter pays.
      The proposal would include the presumption of renewal for mines and quarries as a statutory requirement. It would also introduce, in a well-established statutory decision-making process, a requirement that, where certain conditions were met, the decision would effectively be taken out of the hands of the proper decision-making body—the Environment Agency.
      New clause 12, tabled by the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), would place the presumption of renewal in statute, for all abstractors. My concern is that such a provision would fetter the agency's ability to consider other relevant factors. It is difficult to define in

      35
      a Bill every factor that might arise in sufficient detail for all those cases where the presumption cannot apply. The presumption of renewal reiterates the effective presumption of grant existing at the time of the original application, provided that there is continuing need and that environmental sustainability is not threatened.
      4.15 pm
      The Environment Agency must have concrete grounds for not granting or not renewing a licence, and its decisions can be challenged by appeal. We have to be careful about including undue restraints in the Bill because one of the considerations that the agency must take into account in renewing a licence is the efficient use of water. The hon. Member for Lewes has not included that in his criteria, as far as I am aware.
      Norman Baker: That is covered by environmental sustainability and water abstraction in new clause 12.
      Mr. Morley: I accept the hon. Gentleman's assurance that that is his intention, but new clause 12 does not say that. [Interruption.] He can imagine how such meanings could be argued over in court. We should be as clear as possible in framing legislation. If it is impossible to deal with every circumstance in relation to the presumption of renewal, there must be flexibility to allow the agency to do its job. That is why it is unwise to stipulate in the way that the hon. Gentleman suggests in new clause 12. It could lead to great difficulties in the future. My worry is that it could tie one hand behind the agency's back, and I would not want that to happen.
      Mr. Heath: I am concerned about how the agency can deal with the cumulative effect of a number of permissions on a single aquifer. Each planning permission and each licence may well not have an environmentally unsustainable effect on the aquifer, but the cumulative effect may be unsustainable. In those circumstances and under the Minister's scheme, would the agency be right to cancel all permissions in a given area?
      Mr. Morley: The hon. Gentleman goes into hypothetical detail. However, as a rule of thumb, the agency will certainly take into account the cumulative effect of abstraction. If a further application could add to the overall effect of a number of existing licences that would certainly affect whether a new application was granted. Of course, there is nothing new about that—the agency currently operates in that way in respect of its resource management duties—so the existing situation would not change.
      Of course, we have powers to direct the agency in how it deals with such issues if it becomes necessary to do so in the light of experience, so the presumption of renewal need not be included in the Bill, as that could be too restrictive. The presumption of renewal exists, as has been emphasised on a number of occasions, and I do so again now, so that there is no doubt or argument about it.
      Amendments Nos. 9 and 11 would impose particular considerations in specifying the expiry date of a licence. Incorporating criteria, such as fixed duration, or the
      36
      need to relate licences to asset-lifetime criteria could have the effect of overriding other criteria, not least environmental considerations. So those amendments are unacceptable.
      Amendment No. 12 would significantly limit the ability of the agency to refuse to renew a licence to the very narrow set of circumstances set out in that amendment. It would remove the tests to ensure whether water continues to be used efficiently or is still required. The hon. Member for Lewes says that such things are covered by sustainability, but there could be argument about that.
      I come now to amendment No. 10. I met representatives of mineral water companies, and I understand their concerns about what might happen if someone wishes to construct a borehole adjacent to the site of their existing abstraction licence. Of course, existing licence holders do have protected rights in respect of quantities. I realise that the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin) is concerned that boreholes might affect the chemical composition of the water, and I pointed out in my discussions with mineral water companies that I would ask the agency whether it could take such issues into account. However, there are real problems. The agency does not have a duty to take into account the effect of boreholes on the mineral composition of water. The agency's duty relates simply to quantities, so amendment No. 10 would not have the effect that the hon. Gentleman argues for. Moreover, there would be real technical problems. The greater protection is on the quantities and on the rights of existing licence holders. As has rightly been stated, there is deregulation under a certain threshold, but if a problem arose the threshold could be lowered.
      Amendment No. 24 would restrict the Secretary of State's ability to direct the agency to apply for a threshold order under new section 27A of the Water Resources Act 1991. The Secretary of State would be able to exercise this power only in relation to issues of national importance. The power to intervene, exceptional as it is, may be used to make changes to reflect important national policy matters, but it could also be used in respect of matters on which the agency had yet to have the opportunity to take action. To enable full accountability between the Secretary of State and the agency, it is necessary to have the ability to intervene in unforeseen circumstances, which may encompass wider issues than those of national importance. Again, we must ensure that the agency has flexibility.
      Amendment No. 25 deals with advertising regulations a—matter to which Members did not give a great deal of attention—and amendment No. 4 is concerned with protected rights. There seemed to be some confusion in Committee about the question of the time limit, and I must make it clear that we are talking about protected rights, not the right to abstract. Clause 17 preserves the protected right of those abstractors who no longer require a licence as a result of the Bill's various deregulatory measures—in other words, those who are below the current threshold. But where the right to abstract is not exercised, the protected right may lapse after four years, or—as was rightly pointed out—after another such period, as agreed by the agency. The intention is to prevent any unused abstraction rights from blocking access to water resources by preventing

      37
      the issuing of new licences. But I must stress that that the loss of a protected right after four years does not prevent an abstraction from taking place. Unlicensed abstraction can continue lawfully at any time because it is below the threshold; it is simply the status of the abstraction that changes.
      Amendment No. 4 seeks to change the period from four years to six years—an issue that was discussed in Committee. We believe that the proposed normal four-year period achieves a balance between the needs of an abstractor for the resources that they have a right to abstract, and the needs of other licence applicants, and, of course, of the environment.
      Clause 24 introduces the right to sue an abstractor who causes damage. Abstractors will therefore need to remain alert to the possibility that they are harming others, if they are to avoid being subject to claims for damages. That will ensure that the law on water abstraction is entirely consistent with long-established rules in other areas—for example, the requirement for property owners and other occupiers or users of land to respect the interests of their neighbours. I understand what the hon. Member for Mid-Dorset and North Poole (Mrs. Brooke) said about the concern that that might lead to some house owners taking action. She gave an example of people in the watercress industry, and amendment No. 126 would provide a restricted definition of loss or damage. Different rules would apply to loss or damage under these provisions compared to the usual principles that apply to other cases.
      Although the most common type of damage will be tangible damage to property, people who have suffered kinds of otherwise recoverable harm should have the ability to obtain the appropriate compensation. However, if the hon. Lady thinks that that might provide an excuse for someone to take legal action because they might argue that the water flow in the stream outside their house has devalued their property because it is on the waterside, I assure her that that is not the intention of clause 24. Just like anything else, such a case would have to be made in a court of law, and our legal advisers inform me that it would be very difficult to make such a case. In the end, it is for the court to decide, but it is not the Bill's intention to provide such a right. The Bill simply intends to put in place provision for similar rights to apply in similar circumstances so that there is consistency. I do not believe that it will necessarily bring about major changes.
      I think that I have covered the main points that have not unreasonably been raised. I hope that I have addressed those points in a serious and detailed manner and provided reassurance to Members who have spoken on behalf of companies in their constituencies. I emphasise that we take such points seriously and are seeking to address them as far as possible as we seek a balance between sustainable management, the powers of the Environment Agency and the rights of abstractors.
      Mr. Wiggin: The Minister was correct when he said that he had addressed these important and well made points.
      Will the Minister consider a suggestion about the letter that he sent to the chairman of the quarrying industry? I accept that the Minister is worried about
      38
      putting the contents of that letter in the Bill, and he made very clear the reasons for his not doing so. However, is there anything more that we can ask him to do to clarify the contents of the letter? I suggest that putting a copy of the letter in the House of Commons Library might be the easiest way of allowing everyone to see its contents. [Interruption.] There is some nodding in the distance. I hope that that is a positive sign.
      We talked about the presumption of renewal being needed in the Bill. The Minister says, "No, I do not agree on that one." We also talked about contamination affecting the bottling sector.
      Mr. Morley: Although the letter was written to a third-party organisation, I confirm that, as far as we are concerned, it is a matter of public record. I am quite sure that we can arrange to put a copy in the Library.
      Mr. Wiggin: I am delighted by that good news. It is a positive response and I know that many people have worked hard to obtain such assurances from the Minister. I am grateful to him for allowing everyone to see the letter's contents by putting a copy in the House of Commons Library.
      To return to the point that I was about to make about bottling rights, the Environment Agency is responsible for the quantities abstracted but not for the quality. I completely accept and understand that, but I was not so happy with what the Minister said about the contamination effect. Although in most cases this would not happen, drilling into an aquifer can have a negative effect and pollution might reach the public through bottled water. I accept that many checks and balances are in place.
      Mr. Morley: I want to make it clear that although the principal consideration is quantity, quality and the potential for pollution are other criteria that the agency must take into account. Whether there is potential for pollution is an important consideration in whether a licence is granted.
      4.30 pm
      Mr. Wiggin: I am clearly on a roll today because the Minister is being very helpful.
      The Environment Agency must also be responsible for environmental impact and if that is manifested by pollution, it should be responsible for that, whether it wants to be or not. Pollution causes environmental damage, so it does not matter how it occurs. The agency should examine its remit on the damage of aquifers carefully. I am also grateful to the Minister for touching on protected rights.
      The majority of what the Minister said was extremely helpful. I am grateful for his words and the letter that he will put in the Library, but we do need to amend the Bill somewhat.
      Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
      The House divided: Ayes 132, Noes 318.

      39

      Division No. 354]

      [4:30

      AYES

      Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

      Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

      Ancram, rh Michael

      Laing, Mrs Eleanor

      Arbuthnot, rh James

      Lait, Mrs Jacqui

      Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

      Lansley, Andrew

      Bacon, Richard

      Leigh, Edward

      Barker, Gregory

      Letwin, rh Oliver

      Baron, John (Billericay)

      Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)

      Bellingham, Henry

      Lidington, David

      Bercow, John

      Loughton, Tim

      Beresford, Sir Paul

      Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

      Blunt, Crispin

      McIntosh, Miss Anne

      Boswell, Tim

      Mackay, rh Andrew

      Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

      Maclean, rh David

      Brady, Graham

      McLoughlin, Patrick

      Brazier, Julian

      Malins, Humfrey

      Burns, Simon

      Maples, John

      Burt, Alistair

      Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

      Butterfill, John

      May, Mrs Theresa

      Cash, William

      Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfied)

      Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

      Moss, Malcolm

      Chope, Christopher

      Murrison, Dr. Andrew

      Clappison, James

      O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

      Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Osborne, George (Tatton)

      Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

      Ottaway, Richard

      Collins, Tim

      Page, Richard

      Conway, Derek

      Paterson, Owen

      Cormack, Sir Patrick

      Pickles, Eric

      Cran, James (Beverley)

      Portillo, rh Michael

      Curry, rh David

      Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

      Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)

      Redwood, rh John

      Robathan, Andrew

      Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

      Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)

      Djanogly, Jonathan

      Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry

      Duncan, Alan (Rutland)

      Roe, Mrs Marion

      Duncan Smith, rh Iain

      Rosindell, Andrew

      Evans, Nigel

      Ruffley, David

      Fabricant, Michael

      Sayeed, Jonathan

      Fallon, Michael

      Selous, Andrew

      Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)

      Shepherd, Richard

      Simmonds, Mark

      Flight, Howard

      Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

      Flook, Adrian

      Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

      Forth, rh Eric

      Soames, Nicholas

      Fox, Dr. Liam

      Spelman, Mrs Caroline

      Garnier, Edward

      Spicer, Sir Michael

      Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

      Spring, Richard

      Goodman, Paul

      Steen, Anthony

      Gray, James (N Wilts)

      Streeter, Gary

      Grayling, Chris

      Swire, Hugo (E Devon)

      Green, Damian (Ashford)

      Syms, Robert

      Greenway, John

      Tapsell, Sir Peter

      Grieve, Dominic

      Taylor, John (Solihull)

      Hammond, Philip

      Taylor, Sir Teddy

      Hawkins, Nick

      Tredinnick, David

      Hayes, John (S Holland)

      Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

      Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

      Tyrie, Andrew

      Hendry, Charles

      Walter, Robert

      Hoban, Mark (Fareham)

      Waterson, Nigel

      Hogg, rh Douglas

      Watkinson, Angela

      Horam, John (Orpington)

      Whittingdale, John

      Howard, rh Michael

      Wiggin, Bill

      Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

      Wilkinson, John

      Hunter, Andrew

      Willetts, David

      Jack, rh Michael

      Wilshire, David

      Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

      Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

      Jenkin, Bernard

      Johnson, Boris (Henley)

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Key, Robert (Salisbury)

      Mr. Mark Francois and

      Kirkbride, Miss Julie

      Mr. John Randall

      40

      NOES

      Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

      Davidson, Ian

      Ainger, Nick

      Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

      Allan, Richard

      Dawson, Hilton

      Allen, Graham

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Denham, rh John

      Atkins, Charlotte

      Dhanda, Parmjit

      Austin, John

      Dismore, Andrew

      Bailey, Adrian

      Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

      Baird, Vera

      Dobson, rh Frank

      Baker, Norman

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      Banks, Tony

      Doran, Frank

      Barnes, Harry

      Doughty, Sue

      Barrett, John

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      Beard, Nigel

      Drew, David (Stroud)

      Beckett, rh Margaret

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Bell, Stuart

      Edwards, Huw

      Bennett, Andrew

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Berry, Roger

      Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

      Betts, Clive

      Etherington, Bill

      Blackman, Liz

      Farrelly, Paul

      Blizzard, Bob

      Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

      Borrow, David

      Fisher, Mark

      Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

      Fitzpatrick, Jim

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

      Flint, Caroline

      Brennan, Kevin

      Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

      Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

      Foster, rh Derek

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      Browne, Desmond

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

      Bryant, Chris

      Buck, Ms Karen

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      Burden, Richard

      Gardiner, Barry

      Burnham, Andy

      Gerrard, Neil

      Burstow, Paul

      Gibson, Dr. Ian

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Gilroy, Linda

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Goggins, Paul

      Cairns, David

      Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

      Calton, Mrs Patsy

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Grogan, John

      Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

      Hain, rh Peter

      Caplin, Ivor

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      Casale, Roger

      Hanson, David

      Caton, Martin

      Healey, John

      Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

      Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

      Challen, Colin

      Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      Hendrick, Mark

      Chaytor, David

      Hepburn, Stephen

      Chidgey, David

      Heppell, John

      Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

      Hesford, Stephen

      Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

      Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia

      Hill, Keith (Streatham)

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Hinchliffe, David

      Clelland, David

      Hodge, Margaret

      Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

      Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

      Coaker, Vernon

      Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)

      Colman, Tony

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

      Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

      Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)

      Howarth, George (Knows/ey N & Sefton E

      Cooper, Yvette

      Cousins, Jim

      Hoyle, Lindsay

      Cox, Tom (Tooting)

      Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)

      Crausby, David

      Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

      Cummings, John

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack(Copeland)

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Hutton, rh John

      Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

      Iddon, Dr. Brian

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      Davey, Edward (Kingston)

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      David, Wayne

      Jamieson, David

      41

      Jenkins, Brian

      Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

      Oaten, Mark (Winchester)

      Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

      O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

      Olner, Bill

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      O'Neill, Martin

      Jones, Kevan (N Durham)

      Organ, Diana

      Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Perham, Linda

      Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

      Picking, Anne

      Kaufman, rh Gerald

      Pickthall, Colin

      Keen, Alan (Feltham)

      Pike, Peter (Burnley)

      Kelly, Ruth (Bo/ton W)

      Plaskitt, James

      Kemp, Fraser

      Pollard, Kerry

      Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

      Khabra, Piara S.

      Pound, Stephen

      Kidney, David

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      King, Andy (Rugby)

      Primarolo, rh Dawn

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Pugh, Dr. John

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Purchase, Ken

      Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

      Purnell, James

      Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

      Rammell, Bill

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

      Leslie, Christopher

      Raynsford, rh Nick

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill

      Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

      Linton, Martin

      Rendel, David

      Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Luke, lain (Dundee E)

      Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Ruane, Chris

      McCabe, Stephen

      Ruddock, Joan

      McCafferty, Chris

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      McDonnell, John

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

      MacDougall, John

      McFall, John

      Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

      McGuire, Mrs Anne

      Salter, Martin

      McIsaac, Shona

      Sanders, Adrian

      McKechin, Ann

      Sawford, Phil

      McKenna, Rosemary

      Shaw, Jonathan

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Sheerman, Barry

      McNamara, Kevin

      Sheridan, Jim

      McNulty, Tony

      Short, rh Clare

      MacShane, Denis

      Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      Singh, Marsha

      McWalter, Tony

      Skinner, Dennis

      McWilliam, John

      Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

      Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

      Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

      Soley, Clive

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      Martlew, Eric

      Steinberg, Gerry

      Meacher, rh Michael

      Stevenson, George

      Michael, rh Alun

      Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)

      Miliband, David

      Miller, Andrew

      Stoate, Dr. Howard

      Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

      Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

      Moffatt, Laura

      Straw, rh Jack

      Mole, Chris

      Stringer, Graham

      Moonie, Dr. Lewis

      Stuart, Ms Gisela

      Moore, Michael

      Stunell, Andrew

      Moran, Margaret

      Sutcliffe, Gerry

      Morley, Elliot

      Tami, Mark (Alyn)

      Mountford, Kali

      Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

      Mullin, Chris

      Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

      Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Teather, Sarah

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

      42

      Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Tipping, Paddy

      Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

      Williams, Betty (Conwy)

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

      Winnick, David

      Trickett, Jon

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

      Truswell, Paul

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Wood, Mike (Batley)

      Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)

      Woolas, Phil

      Worthington, Tony

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)

      Twigg, Derek (Halton)

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

      Vis, Dr. Rudi

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Ward, Claire

      Wyatt, Derek

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Younger-Ross, Richard

      Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

      Watts, David

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Webb, Steve (Northavon)

      Gillian Merron and

      White, Brian

      Ms Bridget Prentice

      Question accordingly negatived.

    Clause 1

      LICENCES TO ABSTRACT WATER
      Amendment made: No. 54, in page 2, leave out lines 6 and 7 and insert—

      'transferring water to another source of supply; or

      transferring water to the same source of supply, but at another point, in the course of dewatering activities in connection with mining, quarrying, engineering, building or other operations (whether underground or on the surface),

      —in either case without intervening use (a "transfer licence");'.—[Mr. Morley.]

    Clause 2
      RESTRICTIONS ON IMPOUNDING
      Amendment made: No. 55, in page 3, line 19, leave out '"relevant' and insert '"the relevant'.—[Mr. Morley.]
    Clause 3

      EXISTING IMPOUNDING WORKS
      Amendments made: No. 56, in page 4, line 6, leave out paragraph (a).
      No. 57, in page 4, line 8, leave out 'such notices' and insert
      'notice of appeal under subsection (4)'.
      No. 58, in page 4, line 39, leave out 'otherwise,' and insert 'in relation to England,'.—[Mr. Morley.]

    Clause 10
      ORDERS UNDER SECTION 33 OF THE WRA, ETC
      Amendment made: No. 59, in page 13, line 34, leave out 'be taken to continue' and insert 'continue to be taken'.—[Mr. Morley.]
    Clause 15

      GENERAL CONSIDERATION OF LICENCE APPLICATIONS
      Amendments made: No. 60, in page 18, line 42, at end insert 'or a transfer licence'.
      No. 61, in page 19, line 1, leave out 'full licence' and insert
      'licence of the same type'.—[Mr. Morley.]

    Clause 17

      PROTECTED RIGHTS
      Amendments made: No. 62, in page 20, line 20, leave out 'is taken to continue' and insert 'continues to be taken'.
      No. 63, in page 20, line 23, leave out
      '(subject to subsection (11) of that section)'.
      No. 64, in page 20, line 25, leave out 'is taken to continue' and insert 'continues to be taken'.
      No. 65, in page 20, line 28, leave out 'is taken to continue' and insert 'continues to be taken'.
      No. 66, in page 20, line 36, leave out
      'that quantity or, if lower,'.
      No. 67, in page 20, leave out lines 38 to 44 and insert—
      '(3) The maximum quantity is the lower of the following—

      (a) twenty cubic metres;

      if, by virtue of an order under section 27A(1) above, section 27(1) above has, or has ever had, effect in relation to the source of supply and point of abstraction in question as if it referred to a quantity lower than twenty cubic metres, that lower quantity (or, if more than one, the lowest of them.'.

      No. 68, in page 21, line 18, leave out 'other provision mentioned in' and insert
      'provision mentioned in paragraph (a), (c), (d), (e) or (f) of.
      No. 69, in page 21, line 29, leave out 'be taken to continue' and insert 'continue to be taken'.
      No. 70, in page 21, line 32, leave out 'be taken to continue' and insert 'continue to be taken'.
      No. 71, in page 21, line 45, after 'or', insert 'abstractions'.
      No. 72, in page 21, line 48, leave out 'subsection (8)' and insert 'subsections (8) and (9)'.—[Mr. Morley.]

    Clause 19

      FORM, CONTENTS AND EFFECT OF LICENCES
      Amendments made: No. 73, in page 23, line 13, leave out '(4)' and insert '(4A)'.
      No. 74, in page 23, line 33, at end insert—
      (4A) In subsection (7), for "or by different means" there is substituted ", by different means or for different purposes".'.—[Mr. Morley.]

    Clause 23

      TRANSFER AND APPORTIONMENT OF LICENCES
      Amendments made: No. 75, in page 27, line 45, after 'licence', insert
      'other than a temporary licence'.
      No. 76, in page 28, line 21, leave out
      'it is proposed he be permitted'
      and insert 'he proposes'.
      No. 77, in page 28, line 24, leave out
      'it is proposed he be permitted'
      and insert 'he proposes'.
      No. 78, in page 28, line 25, leave out from 'which' to 'abstract' in line 26 and insert
      those persons referred to in paragraph (a) above who would require a new licence granted under subsection (5) below would'.
      No. 79, in page 28, line 30, leave out
      'those persons would be permitted to'
      and insert
      'that the persons referred to in paragraph (a) above would'.
      No. 80, in page 29, line 36, leave out 'of four years' and insert
      'mentioned in subsection (11A) below'.
      No. 81, in page 29, line 40, at end insert—
      '(11A) The period referred to in subsection (11)(a) above is—

      four years; or

      if the abstractions authorised under the old licence were abstractions planned to be carried out at intervals of more than four years, or abstractions for emergency purposes only, such longer period as the Agency may determine on the application of the person in question.'.

      No. 82, in page 29, line 42, leave out from 'treated' to end of line 45 and insert—

      '(a)as if it had been granted at the time the old licence was granted; and

      as if it and any other new licence granted by virtue of the relevant apportionment notice had been granted in place of the old licence.'.—[Mr. Morley.]

    Clause 24

      CLAIMS ARISING OUT OF WATER ABSTRACTION
      Amendments made: No. 83, in page 31, line 15, leave out second 'loss or damage'.
      No. 84, in page 31, line 16, after 'and', insert 'is loss or damage'.—[Mr. Morley.]

    Clause 27

      WITHDRAWAL OF COMPENSATION FOR CERTAIN REVOCATIONS AND VARIATIONS
      Amendment made: No. 85, in page 33, line 18, after 'WRA', insert
      '(which provide for the Secretary of State to direct the Environment Agency to revoke or vary a licence in certain circumstances)'.[Mr. Morley.]

    New Clause 5

      REGULATORY METHODOLOGY
      'After section 2 of the WIA there is inserted—
      "2B Regulatory methodology
      (1)The Authority shall prepare and publish a statement of policy with respect to its determination of charges in periodic reviews and interim determinations under all or any of the instruments of appointment of companies as relevant undertakers made by virtue of Part 2 of this Act.
      (2)The Authority's statement of policy under this section shall include a statement of its policy with regard to the following matters—

      (a)the carrying out of its duties under this Act insofar as they relate to its determination of charges;

      (b)the matters to be taken into account and the methodologies to be applied in its determination of charges; and

      45

      (c)the extent to which the performance of functions by persons with powers and duties conferred or imposed by or under this Act or any other enactment are relevant to its determination of charges.

      (3)The Authority shall determine charges in periodic reviews and interim determinations under a company's instrument of appointment as a relevant undertaker on the basis of the most recently published statement of policy.
      (4)The Authority may revise its statement of policy and where it does so shall publish the revised statement.
      (5)Publication under this section shall be in such manner as the Authority considers appropriate for the purpose of bringing the matters contained in the statement of policy to the attention of persons likely to be affected by them and shall not be made less than twelve months before a periodic review.
      (6)When preparing or revising its statement of policy under this section, the Authority shall consult relevant undertakers and such other persons as it considers appropriate, subject to the requirements of subsection (7) below.
      (7)For the purposes of subsection (6) above—

      (a)consultation shall be by way of written notice given by the Authority not less than six months prior to the publication of the statement of policy which it is preparing or revising;

      (b)such notice shall state—

      (i)the matters which the Authority proposes to publish in its statement of policy and its reasons for including them in the statement; and

      (ii)a period of not less than three months within which that person may give written notice of objection with respect to the matters referred to in the notice; and

      (c)the Authority shall give each person a reasonable opportunity to make oral representations to it on the matters referred to in the notice.

      (8)The Authority shall not issue or publish a statement of policy unless—

      (a)no notice of objection to the policy is given to the Authority within the time period specified in its notice under subsection (7); or

      (b)if one or more relevant undertakers gives notice of objection to the Authority within that time—

      (i)the proportion (expressed as a percentage) of the relevant undertakers who have given notice of objection is less than such percentage as may be prescribed; and

      (ii)the percentage given by subsection (9) is less than such percentage as may be prescribed.

      (9)The percentage given by this subsection is the proportion (expressed as a percentage) of the relevant undertakers who have given notice of objection, weighted according to their market share in such manner as may be prescribed.
      (10)If the conditions referred to in subsection (8) are not met, the Authority shall (within three months of its receipt of the first or only notice of objection) refer the policy to the Competition Commission for review.
      (11)Where a reference is made to the Competition Commission under this section, it shall be the duty of the Competition Commission to determine whether the policy which is the subject of the reference operates in a manner best calculated to fulfil the duties of the Authority arising under this Act.
      (12)Where a reference is made to the Competition Commission under this section, the Authority shall not prepare or revise its statement of policy other than on the basis of the determinations of the Competition Commission.
      (13)The Secretary of State may by regulations make such provision as he considers appropriate for regulating the procedure to be followed with respect to any reference to the Competition Commission under this section.
      (14)Without prejudice to the generality of the power conferred by subsection (13) above, regulations under that subsection may, in relation to any such reference, apply (with or without modifications) the provisions of any enactment relating to the references to the Competition Commission under the provisions of this Act, the Fair Trading Act 1973 or the Competition Act 1988.".'.—[Mr. Wiggin.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Mr. Wiggin: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
      New clause 6—Health and Safety Commission—
      'After section 2 of the WIA there is inserted—
      "2A Health and Safety Commission
      (1)The Secretary of State, the Assembly and the Authority shall from time to time consult the Health and Safety Commission, and relevant undertakers, about all safety matters which may be relevant to the carrying out of any of their and relevant undertakers' respective functions under this Act.
      (2)The Secretary of State, the Assembly and the Authority shall, in carrying out their functions under this Act, take into account any advice given by the Health and Safety Commission about any safety issue, whether or not in response to consultation under subsection (1).".'.
      New clause 7—Appeals against enforcement orders—
      (1)Section 21 of the WIA (validity of enforcement orders) is amended as follows.
      (2)At the end of paragraph (a) of subsection (1), there is omitted the word "or".
      (3)After paragraph (b) of subsection (1), there is added—

      (c)"that the making or confirmation of the order was based on an error of law or fact; or

      (d)that in the circumstances of the case, the making or confirmation of the order was not reasonable."

      (4)For subsection (2) there is substituted—
      (2)"On any such application, the High Court may, if satisfied that any of the grounds set out in subsection (1) above are proved—

      (a)quash the order or any provision of the order; or

      (b)vary the whole of the order, or any part of the order whether the application relates to that part of the order or not.".'.

      New clause 10—Duty to carry out regulatory impact assessments—
      'After section 5 of the WIA there is inserted—
      "5A Duty to carry out impact assessments
      (1)This section applies where—

      (a) the Authority is proposing to do anything for the purposes of, or in connection with, the carrying out of its functions; and

      (b) it appears to it that the proposal is important;

      but this section does not apply if it appears to the Authority that the urgency of the matter makes it impracticable or inappropriate for it to comply with the requirements of this section.
      (2)A proposal is important for the purposes of this section only if its implementation would be likely to do one or more of the following—

      (a) to involve a major change in the activities carried on by the Authority;

      47

      (b)to have a significant impact on persons carrying on business in the markets for any of the services and facilities in relation to which the Authority has functions; or

      (c)to have a significant impact on the general public in England and Wales or in a part of England and Wales.

      (3)Before implementing its proposal, the Authority must either—

      (a) carry out and publish an assessment of the likely impact of implementing the proposal; or

      (b)publish a statement setting out its reasons for thinking that it is unnecessary for it to carry out an assessment.

      (4) An assessment carried out under this section—

      (a) may take such form, and

      (b) must relate to such matters.

      as the Authority considers appropriate.
      (5) In determining the matters to which an assessment under this section should relate, the Authority must have regard to such general guidance relating to the carrying out of impact assessments as it considers appropriate.
      (6) Where the Authority publishes an assessment under this section—

      (a) it must provide an opportunity of making representations to it about its proposal to members of the public and other persons who, in the Authority's opinion, are likely to be affected to a significant extent by its implementation;

      (b) the published assessment must be accompanied by a statement setting out how representations may be made; and

      (c) the Authority is not to implement its proposal unless the period for making representations about it has expired and it has considered all the representations that were made in that period.

      (7) Where the Authority is required (apart from this section)—

      (a) to consult about a proposal to which this section applies, or

      (b) to give a person an opportunity of making representations about it,

      the requirements of this section are in addition to, but may be performed contemporaneously with, the other requirements.
      (8) Every report under section 192B must set out—

      (a) a list of the assessments under this section carried out during the financial year to which the report relates; and

      (b) a summary of the decisions taken during that year in relation to proposals to which assessments carried out in that year or previous financial years relate.

      (9) The publication of anything under this section must be in such manner as the Authority considers appropriate for bringing it to the attention of the persons who, in the Authority's opinion, are likely to be affected if its proposal is implemented.".'.
      Amendment No. 19, in schedule 1, page 135, line 8, after 'chairman', insert ',a chief executive'.
      Amendment No. 29, in page 135, line 8, leave out 'and'.
      Amendment No. 20, in page 135, line 8, leave out 'at least two' and insert 'no fewer than three'.
      Amendment No. 30, in page 135, line 9, at end insert
      'and one other member appointed by the National Assembly for Wales'.
      Amendment No. 21, in page 135, line 9, at end insert—
      48
      '(IA)'Including the chairman, the majority of members of the Authority shall be nonexecutive members.'.
      Amendment No. 31, in page 135, line 24, after 'State', insert
      'or the National Assembly for Wales in the case of a member appointed by the Assembly'.
      Amendment No. 14, in page 136, line 15, at beginning insert—

      (1) 'The Secretary of State shall, after consulting the chairman and the Assembly, appoint a person (who may, subject to subparagraph (2), also be a member of the Authority) to act as chief executive of the Authority on such terms and conditions as the Secretary of State may think appropriate.

      (2) A person appointed as chief executive may not at the same time be a chairman.'.

      Amendment No. 18, in clause 38, page 42, line 20, at end insert—
      '(2A) That description must include, so far as the Authority believes it to be relevant for the financial year in question, a statement concerning how the Authority intends thereby to meet its objectives and duties.'.
      Amendment No. 127, in clause 41, page 48, line 34, after 'research', insert 'and regulatory impact assessment'.
      Amendment No. 128, in page 48, line 47, at end insert `and
      (b) a regulatory impact assessment of his proposals to be carried out for the purpose of assessing the likely quantitative and qualitative environmental, public health, economic and social impacts of his proposals.
      (7A) The Secretary of State shall not proceed with any proposal for the making of regulations under subsection (4) above where it is apparent from the regulatory impact assessment carried out under subsection (7)(b) above that the adverse effects of the regulations would outweigh their benefit.'.
      Amendment No. 129, in clause 42, page 50, line 17, after 'research', insert 'and regulatory impact assessment'.
      Amendment No. 130, in page 50, line 30, at end insert 'and
      (b) a regulatory impact assessment of his proposals to be carried out for the purpose of assessing the likely quantitative and qualitative environmental, public health, economic and social impacts of his proposals.
      (7A) The Secretary of State shall not proceed with any proposal for the making of regulations under subsection (4) above where it is apparent from the regulatory impact assessment carried out under subsection (7)(b) above that the adverse effects of the regulations would outweigh their benefit.'.
      Government amendments Nos. 87 to 89.
      Amendment No. 22, in schedule 4, page 174, line 35, leave out from 'which' to end of line 39 and insert 'represents either—

      (a) the amount which the water undertaker—

      (i) reasonably expected to recover from relevant customers; but

      (ii) is unable to recover from those customers as a result of their premises being supplied with water by the licensed water supplier; or

      (b) the amount which represents the costs incurred by the water undertaker in carrying out its functions insofar as they are—

      (i) directly related to the customer in question, or

      (ii) represent an allocation of the water undertakers' fixed costs,

      as the Authority may in any case determine.

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      (3A) The Authority may, in determining the appropriate amount for the purposes of subsection (3) above, take account of the benefits to consumers of determining an amount which promotes competition in wholesale water supply by secondary water undertakers.'.
      Government amendments Nos. 123, 107 and 110.
      Mr. Wiggin: The new clause would require the water services regulation authority to publish a statement of policy on its determination of charges. The statement would have to include how it had carried out its duties, the applied methodology and the extent to which functions had been performed. Six months before publishing the statement of policy, the authority would also have to consult relevant undertakers about the determination of charges, which would allow each relevant person the opportunity to make an oral representation on any objections. If the authority did not meet such conditions as are laid out in proposed subsection (8), the policy would be referred to the Competition Commission for determination. The new clause would hold the authority accountable for publishing its intentions of determined charges in order to make the process more open, transparent and inclusive for the water industry.
      New clause 6 seeks to ensure that health and safety is maintained in the functioning of all relevant water bodies and undertakers by regular monitoring. That would be carried out through consultation between the Secretary of State, the National Assembly for Wales, the authority and the Health and Safety Commission. The Secretary of State, the Assembly and the authority must take on board any advice given about any safety issue in carrying out their functions. I am concerned that the Bill does not address safety carefully enough, but the new clause would ensure that it does so.
      New clause 7 seeks to expand the appeals mechanism through which water undertakers can challenge enforcement orders. Any enforcement order proved to be an error of law or unreasonable, where that is agreed by the High Court, will either be quashed or varied so that it is correct. As the Bill stands, there are not enough provisions for appeal against enforcement orders. New clause 7 would make the arrangements fairer by allowing affected businesses to continue their work if there is an unreasonable or unlawful confirmation of order.
      Amendment No. 14 follows best practice in regulatory structures by seeking to ensure that the chairman and chief executive of the water services regulation authority cannot be the same person. I am concerned that combining the posts would give one person too much power over regulation of the water industry, which could be dangerous and which the Bill addresses. A wider range of options is surely more desirable—after all, the Environment Agency separates the posts. In Committee, the Minister said that he would consult the Secretary of State to provide on Report clear guidelines on the exact structure of the procedure and on the views of the Welsh Assembly. I look forward to hearing about that. The amendment would ensure more open, diverse and discursive procedures in the structure of the water services regulation authority—for the good of not only the industry, but the consumer, whom I am, as usual, keen to protect.
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      Amendment No. 17 reflects my concern that although the new consumer council's access to information about licensed water suppliers is welcome, the availability of that information is too restricted. At present, the Secretary of State has the power to make regulations prescribing circumstances in which water companies or suppliers may refuse the council information. We are worried that there will be fewer duties to provide information than under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. The criteria by which a request for information can be refused should be in the Bill. Up-to-date information is essential if the council is to act in the best interests of consumer protection. As consumers have no choice of supplier in the first place, they should be able to access information to resolve any problems. My amendment would enable the council to publish information if the benefit to the consumer was greater than the prejudicial effects on the interests of the body. Moreover, it reflects the view of the consumer council for water, which welcomes an independent consumer council, but wants the Bill to ensure that it has the right powers and resources to improve consumers' representation.
      Mr. Andrew Lansley: I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to new clause 10 and the other amendments in my name. The Minister will be familiar with the arguments that surround them, although in some cases I have tried to draft them more accurately—and perhaps more acceptably, from the Minister's point of view—to reflect my intentions.
      New clause 10 would require that where the water services regulation authority undertakes something of significance in relation to the industry and water undertakers, and where it is not a matter of urgency, it is under an obligation to carry out and to publish regulatory impact assessments. I shall not dwell on the subject of what those should cover, but hon. Members will note that subsection (5) of the new clause would require the authority to
      "have regard to such general guidance relating to the carrying out of impact assessments as is considered appropriate."
      That would include the Cabinet Office guidance that was updated in the latter part of last year. There have been some helpful innovations in respect of regulatory impact assessments, not least the inclusion of a competition assessment. The quality of such documents is a matter of continuing debate that I shall not explore further. It is important, however, that regulators should themselves have regard to the impact assessment process.
      The text of the new clause is modelled directly on section 7 of the Communications Act 2003, reflecting the duty that the Government properly laid on that sector's new regulator—Ofcom—to undertake regulatory impact assessments. I cannot see why there should be a distinction between the manner in which Ofcom is to undertake its responsibilities as a new regulator and the manner in which the new water services regulation authority is to do so. I am therefore—perhaps over-optimistically—hopeful that the Minister will say, "Thank you very much", and agree to it.
      Amendment No. 19 would insert into schedule 1 the provision that the new water services regulation authority should have not only a chairman, but a chief executive—with the implication, of course, that they

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      should be two separate people. That is in line with current regulatory best practice. It is also increasingly regarded as best practice in the corporate sector. Although I do not suggest that everything in the Higgs report is right, the importance of distinguishing between the roles of chairman and chief executive did not cause great controversy.
      It is important for business to distinguish between the person who is responsible for strategy and the person who has responsibility for the body's executive functions. It is even more important for regulatory bodies. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin) suggested, there is a danger—it is not theoretical; it has been demonstrated in the past—that a regulator who is one person can be the subject of speculation about personal views and, when a new regulator is appointed, about the way in which the policy will change simply as a consequence of a change of personality.
      We cannot remove the problem entirely but the Better Regulation Task Force's report on economic regulators said that it was desirable to move away from having the regulator as one person and that an element of greater regulatory certainty was introduced if the regulator was perceived as a corporate body rather than a personality. We are moving towards the water services regulation authority being a corporate body by looking to an authority rather than a single person such as the director general. It is no reflection on Philip Fletcher as the director general of the Office of Water Services and the way in which he has done his job that all regulators are moving in that direction. It is a retrograde step to reintroduce speculation by combining in one person the role of chairman and chief executive. If I remember rightly, the new combined code for companies reflects the desirability of distinguishing between the role of chairman and chief executive.
      Amendments Nos. 20 and 21 would establish that a majority of the new authority should be non-executive members. Amendment No. 20 would establish that, in addition to the chairman and chief executive, there should be a minimum of three additional members, thus making a minimum of five and rendering practical a non-executive majority in an authority of five. Again, that is in line with best practice in corporate governance terms in the companies sector and is reflected in the structure of most regulators, including, to give a recent example, Postcomm.
      Paddy Tipping: The hon. Gentleman rehearses arguments that we had in Committee. He and the Minister will recall that voices from all parties in Committee called for best practice. Amendments Nos. 19, 20 and 21 reflect good practice. Although there is no need for the Minister to change the Bill, he gave an undertaking in Committee to reflect on the points that were made and give us more information on Report.
      Mr. Lansley: The hon. Gentleman is right. In Committee, he suggested that I should quit while I was ahead. Having engaged his support, if I may interpret his remarks in that way, I shall quit while I am ahead on the amendments. It is in the nature of things that we have to table the amendments again to stimulate the
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      debate. As the hon. Gentleman says, the Bill does not have to look different to produce a different outcome in the composition of the authority. I hope that when the Minister replies to the debate, we may have some good news from him. On the assumption that I am quitting while I am ahead, I shall keep moving and hope that I can win again. I appreciate that I have not won yet, but I hope to do so.
      Amendment No. 18 would take account of the fact that when the Better Regulation Task Force considered economic regulators, its recommendations reflected the fact that several regulators had been given a range of additional objectives and statutory duties that could at times come into conflict. At that time, that was not true of the director general of water services. However, we are now incorporating into the legislation some additional objectives and duties for the new water services regulatory authority—not least in relation to the pursuit of consumers' interests whenever appropriate through competition, and to environmental and social objectives.
      5 pm
      At the time, the Better Regulation Task Force said that that could create uncertainty for industry, which would be inherently undesirable. We want regulation to be predictable whenever possible, and we therefore want any possible conflicts of interest within the statutory objectives of the regulator to be interpreted in a way that is relatively predictable for the industry. The taskforce recommended that this should be done each year through the business plan of the authority concerned. In this case, the authority describes its business plan as its forward work programme, and clause 38 contains a number of provisions relating to the forward work programme of the authority. It does not, however, include an obligation to set out in the programme how the authority intends to reconcile its objectives and duties. That is an omission in comparison with the legislation that we passed last year on the establishment of Ofcom, which does have such explicit obligations built into its structure. I hope that the Minister will be able to look positively at this issue.
      The purpose of amendment No. 22 is to reflect regulatory practice among a number of regulators when considering the question of access pricing. I will not bore the House on this subject in the manner in which I detained and bored the Committee. I will simply say that, in recent examples, other regulators looking at access pricing for the purpose of stimulating competition have taken different views on how that should be done. The different approaches can be characterised either as a retail-minus or a cost-plus approach. The former looks at the retail price of what has been a monopoly undertaking and subtracts from it the avoidable costs of providing the service to customers, which is to be substituted for by a new entrant to the marketplace, and to say to that new entrant, "It is your responsibility to ensure that the amount paid to the monopoly or statutory undertaking is the equivalent to the amount that it would have expected, less the avoidable costs."
      The cost-plus approach says, "Let us find out the costs to the statutory undertaking of providing the service to the new entrant, and, through the new entrant, to the customer." Of course, that triggers a debate about

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      what costs are properly attributable. Members who are interested in this subject will find exactly that kind of debate taking place in the current Postcomm decision about access pricing to the Royal Mail network, where they will find a full discussion of the subject. It is therefore a matter of debate as to what extent the fixed overheads of the statutory undertaking are attributed to the new entrant or, via the new entrant, to the customer. That is why I have tried to make life simpler than it was in Committee by restructuring my proposals.
      Amendment No. 22 is therefore very straightforward. It incorporates in paragraph (a) the structure that reflects the legislation as it is currently drafted, which takes the retail-minus approach. Paragraph (b) contains a simple description of a cost-plus approach. In addition, however, I have added sub-paragraph (3A), which would provide the authority with a discretionary power to determine which of those approaches to pricing the authority may use, and, in doing so, to take into account the effects of such a decision on competition. The Minister and other Members who served on the Committee will recall that I was very concerned that the structure of pricing that has been written into the Bill will make the reality of competition far less than it ought to be, even in the limited industry to which competition is to be applied.
      Mr. John Redwood: Does my hon. Friend agree that when challenges have been proposed, they have normally resulted in a 10 to 20 per cent. proposed reduction in water supply prices? That does not sit easily with the monopolists' view that they need a price increase. How might the matter be dealt with under the formula that my hon. Friend suggests? The monopolists will clearly say that they can only offer the price because they are cherry-picking, while the challengers will say that it is because they are more efficient.
      Mr. Lansley: At least two mechanisms will operate. There is the extent to which the regulator can deliver price reductions as a consequence of regulatory contestability, and there is the actual impact of competition. My right hon. Friend and I will probably have no trouble in agreeing that regulatory proxies of contestability have proved only modestly successful in comparison with the benefits of competition in delivering cost and thereby price reductions to consumers.
      My right hon. Friend's point about a 10 to 20 per cent. reduction is an indication—a modest indication—of what has often been delivered by the introduction of competition. I well remember that when BT introduced competition, certain people who had better be nameless were willing to go to the wall for the defence of the retail prices index formula, claiming that if the reduction went below RPI minus 1 the world as we know it would cease to exist. In fact I think the telecommunications formula reached RPI minus 12 within a few years.
      I do not know what degree of cost reduction is available in this case. As we said a number of times in Committee, the actual cost of water in relation to the cost of the fixed infrastructure that the undertaker will have to continue to maintain is very low. That means that it will be difficult to find opportunities for competition to deliver a margin to new entrants to the
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      marketplace while also delivering a benefit to consumers. That is one reason why the amendment is needed, especially in relation to determining the appropriate amount for access pricing by reference to the need for competition. Otherwise I think it will be squeezed out. If the primary undertakers are to receive the amount they expected, less identified and avoidable costs—which constitute a very small part of the overall price to customers, even the very large customers who will be the subject of competition—it will be difficult for secondary suppliers to enter the marketplace and deliver a margin against that.
      I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his intervention, which has allowed me to extend the argument a little. This is not just about offering the authority the flexibility that it ought to have in relation to access pricing; we should also provide a statutory power to help the delivery of competition. As I said in Committee, I am surprised that having talked of the introduction of competition, the Government have framed the Bill in a way that makes it extremely unlikely that it will be effective. It is important for us to challenge that now.
      The benefit of the cost-plus route, as opposed to the retail-minus route taken by the Bill in its present form, is that it would expose the costs of primary water undertakers. In the case of Royal Mail, the principal difficulty for the new regulator was the lack of any accurate attribution of costs, or even an understanding of them, in the Post Office on which prices could be based. If the calculation had been made on a retail-minus basis, all the inaccuracies and inflationary elements of costs would have been set in stone, and Royal Mail's management would not now be having to deal with them.
      I have gone on longer than I intended to, but that often happens when we discuss access pricing. It is not everybody's cup of tea, but it is terrifically important. It may be hidden away in schedule 4, but in the absence of amendment, I fear that one of the main objectives of the Bill will be damaged.
      Sue Doughty: I shall speak first about Liberal Democrat amendments Nos. 127 to 130, then comment on new clause 5.
      Our amendments reflect our concern to ensure that any new standards are based on common sense and that there are no unforeseen results. The Bill gives the Secretary of State the power to introduce new standards of performance in water supply and sewerage services for water companies. Until now, standards of performance have been set either by legislation—for example, on drinking water or bathing water quality—or by the director general of water services. In making recommendations, the director general has to strike a balance between the duties given to him by Parliament towards present and future customers. Within the limits of those powers, the director general has been independent of short-term political pressures.
      We are worried because the proposals in the Bill infringe both the independence of the authority that will replace the director general of water services and the principle of parliamentary supremacy in setting the framework for water industry regulation. The proposals risk imposing unwarranted costs 5on customers in

      55
      pursuit of standards of performance set in accordance with short-term political pressures. It is not realistic to expect the proposals on standards of performance to be deleted outright; instead, there should be a duty on the Secretary of State when setting those standards to carry out a full appraisal of the standards and to implement them only if the benefits outweigh the costs.
      Mr. Redwood: Can the hon. Lady explain what the Secretary of State and the regulator should do in the event that, say, the quantitative evaluation is positive, but adverse qualitative matters have to be taken into account? If not all the factors are quantified, how are they to form a judgment?
      Sue Doughty: We should be examining the cost of changes. There are times when we have to consider standards, sustainability, regulation and other aspects of change, but in cases in which those aspects are neutral and the costs of minor changes outweigh the benefits, we want the Secretary of State to take a view. We do not want a change that will cost an arm and a leg to implement but will bring about no real benefit. Perhaps the Secretary of State has taken a view on public health or on the environment and minor changes are proposed, but the cost of those changes far outweighs the benefit. We are therefore concerned about the regulatory impact assessment. Our aim is to ensure that the Secretary of State takes account of such matters. We want to ensure that unrealistic costs are not placed on water companies and thereby on their customers, and that the checks and balances are determined by Parliament.
      We were inclined to support new clause 5, but we have some concerns, in particular about proposed new subsections (8) and (9), which refer to percentages of the relevant undertakers that have to be in agreement. A policy must be considered in the light of the number of objectors
      "weighted according to their market share in such a manner as may be prescribed."
      The nature of the water industry is such that a small number of companies control the largest market share. The result may be a policy that is skewed in favour of a few companies, as the proposals would allow them to club together to oppose the authority's proposals on a policy statement. We fear that some of the regulatory teeth would thereby be removed.
      Mr. Wiggin: I am sympathetic to the hon. Lady's fears, because the new clause is long and complex. However, does she agree that the reason it is weighted towards market share is to give due consideration to the consumer? I know that she is keen on supporting consumers, so I suggest that she looks again at the new clause. As I said, I sympathise with her fears, but they should be allayed on the basis that it is important for consumers to gain proper weighted representation. That provision is built into the new clause.
      5.15 pm
      Sue Doughty: I understand what the hon. Gentleman says and I have considerable sympathy with his view of consumers. It is one way of looking at the issue, but it
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      also puts disproportionate weight on businesses. I believe that the authority should act on behalf of consumers—that is what it is there to do. My fear is that the water companies, as businesses, would benefit disproportionately. Consumers might benefit sometimes, but otherwise business considerations are paramount.
      Sadly, on balance, we cannot support the new clause. We believe that, in the end, the authority should have a written statement of policy and maintain independence.
      Mr. Simon Thomas: Before I speak to amendments Nos. 29, 30 and 31, I want to support the amendments moved by the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) on best practice within what could be called "corporate social responsibility" in the widest context. His point about the separation of powers between the chief executive and the chair of the authority is important. Several hon. Members made that point in Committee and I look forward to hearing the Minister's views on it tonight, so that we may have a better idea of how the Government think the authority should be run according to best practice.
      My amendments are simple, though quite far-reaching. They would ensure that the two statutory bodies established by the Bill—the water services regulation authority and the consumer council for water—have among their membership a representative not only from Wales but directly appointed by the National Assembly for Wales. I want to explain in just a couple of minutes why I believe that that is important.
      Under the Bill as it stands, members of the important statutory regulation authority will be appointed after the Secretary of State has consulted the National Assembly for Wales. That amounts to consultation, but the National Assembly for Wales has no right directly to make appointments. I dare say that it could suggest names, but it could not ensure that its favoured person sat on the board of the authority, because it is for the Secretary of State to make the appointment.
      In respect of the consumer council for water, consultation with the National Assembly applies only to appointment of the chairman, but there will also be a member on the body who is directly appointed by the National Assembly, so a twin level of devolution is going on there.
      The Government have accepted that it is important, in view of devolution and the water industry's importance to Wales—or, I should say, because there are cross-boundary issues, within the areas covered by Dwr Cymru, Welsh Water—that Welsh consumers have someone on the consumer council directly appointed by the National Assembly. However, the wider regulatory framework allows only consultation with the Assembly rather than allowing it to appoint directly to the board.
      A similar process—I accept that what we are dealing with here is indeed consistent with it—applied to the office of communications. When Ofcom was established, similar processes were taking place and I recall hearing the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire make similar arguments about the regulatory framework. We examined the issue of users or consumers having representation from Wales, but the

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      Secretary of State made appointments to the statutory or regulatory body on the basis of a different level of consultation with the National Assembly.
      The point behind the amendments is simple. Now that devolution is bedding down and the National Assembly is becoming a mature body that is able to take strategic decisions, and given that water is so important to Wales, should there not be a mature relationship of equality between Westminster and Cardiff? When we consider England and Wales provisions—water in Scotland is outwith the Bill—it is not too much to ask that the Assembly have the right to make a direct nomination to the authority. That non-contentious suggestion would not create any problems. However, the Government might have difficulty with it if it set a precedent for other regulatory frameworks, such as communications and broadcasting, which I mentioned earlier. Considering the importance of Welsh water to both England and Wales, I doubt whether such a right would be a problem. I accept that the Government's approach is not to hurry devolution, but if I would like it to move a little quicker, that is not an unacceptable position for a member of Plaid Cymru.
      Although my amendments are buried in a group of amendments and we will not have the opportunity to vote on them, I hope that the Minister will take the opportunity to expand a little on what he said in Committee about the relationship between the National Assembly, the authority, the consumer council and the Secretary of State in making the appointments. I want to hear a description of how the relationship will work when the appointments are made, and how the National Assembly Government will be involved in them. I would also like to know how the Assembly will be able to relate to the authority over time and make its views clear on priorities for Wales, which will also affect many English water users, and their context in the work of the authority.
      The amendments are straightforward. They touch on larger issues, but we need to have the context for the consumer council and the services authority set out.
      Mr. Redwood: I rise in support of new clause 5 and some of the other amendments before us. The Bill is a wasted opportunity. I strongly believe that the successful introduction of competition into the water industry would improve the service and the level of investment, and lower prices. I am disappointed that schedule 4 is still unamended, with a 50-megalitre threshold for the introduction of competition and a ban on any competition in the household sector. I have declared my interests in the register, and they include owning a household for which I would like to have a competitive water supply. I see that I shall have to await another Bill and another day to see that ambition fulfilled.
      In new clause 5, I welcome the requirement that
      "The Authority shall prepare and publish a statement of policy with respect to its determination of charges in periodic reviews and interim determinations".
      However, the authority will find that difficult, because it will experience conflicting pressures. As I suggested in an intervention, some will seek to challenge the existing incumbents in the industry and will claim that they could deliver water for 10, 15 or 20 per cent. less than the
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      current prices. They will claim that they could do that universally, if they were given access to the water resources; if they were allowed to tap into the rising water tables; if they were able to extract from rivers with sufficient to extract; and if they were allowed to route their product, in part or wholly, through the pipelines of the existing monopolists. The regulator will have to take that into account and the challengers will certainly present an interesting proposition. The incumbents in the industry will say that it is unrealistic. When companies offer to undercut prices at the higher end of the market, the incumbents will claim that those companies will not sort out the problems of the existing network, solve the investment backlog or offer such prices to all users. Under this legislation, that will never be tested, because competition will be so restricted.
      New clause 5 is hopeful, but I would like some reassurance from my hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin)—and from the Minister, if he intends to accept it—that the authority, when preparing and publishing its statement of policy, would give due influence to what a competitive market could provide and would not merely consider the claims of the incumbents that they need a certain percentage increase in prices regularly in order to make good the defects of the current structure.
      The industry was nationalised for all too long. During that time, it got itself into a position in which about a quarter of its product disappeared between its collection in a reservoir and its routing to a household or business premises. That was a most remarkable degree of waste. I do not think that competitive food companies would accept the loss of 25 per cent. of food products between farm and shop or in the lorries that transport them around the country; yet, until recently, we lived, apparently comfortably, with the idea that a quarter of the product could go missing. That is the kind of issue that the regulator should take into account under new clause 5 when reaching a determination about the efficiency of businesses and a sensible price.
      I am pleased that new clause 5 contains the possibility that matters can be referred to the Competition Commission for review. That gives some cause for hope. There is a case for doing just that, given current prices and efficiency in the industry. All too often pressure is low in relatively warm conditions, and we are now hearing, once again, warnings from the industry that, because we had a longish period this summer of not much rainfall, there could be problems ahead. It beggars belief that we find it difficult to guarantee a plentiful supply of water at all times in an island that is regularly soaked with rain.
      From some people, we hear that it is somehow not environmentally friendly to want rising water use. Yet anyone who understands the water cycle knows that we do no damage by using water. We use it, it passes through and it is returned to the environmental system. All we need is regulation to make sure that it is taken out in the right way and put back in the right way. Let us use it as often as possible. In a growingly prosperous society, we should expect rising water demand. I trust that the regulator will take account of the growing popularity of water when reaching his or her determination under new clause 5, if it is passed, and under the Bill in general.

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      I have some sympathy with new clause 10. My hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) is right to say that we need impact assessments. I was pleased to hear that he thinks that those must also refer to competition assessments and must try to deal with the cruel dilemma that competition may point in one direction on price while the claims of the incumbents may point in another.
      We should understand that price is the crucial issue. Water is the exception to the rule in being a utility that was privatised without our introducing competition. As one would expect, it has rising prices while those utilities that were privatised with the introduction of competition showed very sharp declines in prices over a short period. That is true of gas and electricity, as well as the telephone industry to which my hon. Friend referred. In each case, we were warned when we started to introduce competition that it was quite inconceivable that prices would go down. In each case, the monopolist told us that having businesses coming in and creaming the best business from them would increase their costs and make it difficult for them to invest and survive. In each case, that was quite wrong. In each case, competition made the overall market grow and, in spite of falling prices, produced better profitability for, in most cases, the incumbents as well as the challengers. I am glad that my hon. Friend has tried to open that argument by requiring, in new clause 10, that proper impact assessments be carried out and all those issues be considered.
      My hon. Friend also tabled amendments in Committee and on Report to try to encourage best corporate practice in the regulator. I did not approach that idea with an immediate spring in my step; as my hon. Friend knows, I am not someone who would have too many public sector posts. If I thought one could get away with one person instead of two, three or five, I would normally welcome that greatly.
      5.30 pm
      I see the point that my hon. Friend is making, however: all the businesses to be regulated by that regulator would be expected to come up with high standards of corporate governance; to split power between, usually, a non-executive chairman and an executive chief operating officer or a chief executive; and to have non-executives on their board to provide some balance and criticism and to intervene when things go wrong. We probably owe it to those businesses to be a little more generous than I should normally be in public sector staffing and accept that there should be a non-executive power balance on the board. Non-executives are always much cheaper than executives and my hon. Friend recommends a non-executive chairman and non-executive board members. That expenditure may be sensible, and it could be false economy to ignore such advice.
      I am pleased to hear that the Minister is moving in that direction. I urge him to do the honourable and decent thing and accept the amendments. If his intentions are honourable, why not include the amendments? Why not protect us from some evil future Government who may not share his wisdom and
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      common sense and might want to run the regulatory body without the non-executive counterbalance so wisely thought through by my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire and formulated in his amendments?
      I hope that the Minister is in listening mode and that he will be prepared to surprise us by his generosity and common sense. He is rare among Ministers in this Government: he understands what he is doing, listens carefully to the arguments and has some influence over what the Government do. I very much welcome that in a Minister and wish there were more like him. He is stranded without promotion because he is so much better than those who are promoted—[Horn. MEMBERS: "He was promoted."] But not to the Cabinet. He is obviously too good to get into the Cabinet; one has to reach a low standard to achieve Cabinet rank. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is too good for this Cabinet.
      The amendments suggesting that Wales be properly represented also appealed to my generous and emollient spirit this evening. As a former Secretary of State for Wales, how could I say that I was against proper representation for the Principality on such an important body? I trust that as a party we shall offer support for the proper representation of Wales.
      I do not find myself in the same sympathy with the Lib Dem amendment, moved without a great deal of understanding or force by the hon. Member for Guildford (Sue Doughty)—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ooh."] I asked a simple question of the hon. Lady. Her amendment states that there should be an assessment based on things that can be quantified and an assessment based on things that require qualitative judgment. I asked her how the Minister and the regulator could come to a conclusion if quantities pointed one way and qualities pointed another, but there was no answer from the hon. Lady. She seems to have designed an extremely ambiguous proposal, which would make the legislation more rather than less difficult for the Minister and the regulator. Surely, the art of legislation is to keep it simple, short and clear. The amendment would do none of those things; it throws many things into the pot, as we are used to the Lib Dems doing, and leaves us in a grey area about what might emerge.
      Norman Baker rose—
      Mr. Redwood: Does the hon. Gentleman want to intervene?
      Norman Baker Norman Baker: No.
      Mr. Redwood: When somebody stands up in this place, it is normal for them to intervene. However, I see that the hon. Gentleman really wanted to leave. He obviously accepts my criticisms of Lib Dem policy on the matter and is so embarrassed that he has had to flee the Chamber. Perhaps he has gone to look for the person who actually wrote the amendment to find the answer to those interesting questions. The Lib Dems do not have the benefit of a Box of officials to scribble answers when they are under pressure in the Chamber. We saw that lack today when they could give us no answers. Given the performance from the Lib Dem

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      Benches, I urge my hon. Friends not to support their amendment No. 128, as it would create muddle and confusion in a Bill that will benefit from no such extra proposals.
      My hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire has introduced another good proposal: amendment No. 22, which deals with access pricing and returns us to earlier contributions that he and I made in this evening's short debate on these vital matters. Again, that amendment represents a clarification. It would put a little more pressure on the regulator to explore why water prices are so high, to ask why the leading water companies think that prices should go considerably higher and to ask why, so far, so few of the inefficiencies in the leading water undertakings have been squeezed out.
      Why is so much of the product still lost between reservoir and market? Why has there not been the same competitive and aggressive promotion of the product as we have with things such as mobile telephony in the now very competitive telephone sector? Why is there so much reluctance to deliver new products and to produce the reserves necessary so that water can be more aggressively sold to the marketplace? Why do we still have such very defensive attitudes to the water industry, thinking that it is somehow wrong to buy and sell the product and wrong for people to want more of it?
      I would draw an analogy with the hot cross bun industry. It would be rather odd if, around Easter time, that industry issued a note saying, "It is most inconvenient that everyone wants hot cross buns at the same time. Would people please delay their purchase of hot cross buns until August?" Yet the water industry does that at times. When we want water in August to water our plants, we are often advised that it would not be a very good idea to water them in August. I suspect that, if we have a rainy November and December, we will soon be told that it is all right to water our plants. The only trouble is that they are sodden and most of them died in the drought anyway.
      I hope that the important issues that have an impact on consumers—water shortage, advice not to use water when it is needed most, high price, poor investment and poor quality of pipes and the network—will be dealt with under the Bill, but they would be dealt with even better if the proposals made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire, including amendment No. 22, were passed tonight, and it is with great pleasure that I strongly support them.
      Richard Younger-Ross: I am fascinated to hear the right hon. Gentleman outline a new Tory stealth tax. I wonder what the extra reservoir capacity that he is clearly proposing would cost the consumer?
      Mr. Redwood: As I have explained, the competition under my model would produce cheaper prices for consumers. The Liberal Democrats have not yet grasped the point that there was a massive expansion of telecoms capacity after the introduction of competition. Consumers did not have to pay more for the extra capacity; they paid lower prices because the market expanded so much. The same would happen with water if competition was allowed. As always, the Liberal Democrats are 50 years out of date and very keen to
      62
      have subsidised, poor quality nationalised services for more or less everything. I was not at all surprised to hear them argue that case yet again tonight. At least the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) argued it a little more cogently than the hon. Member for Guildford, who is their official spokesman on the issue.
      I have been sidetracked, but I wish to conclude my remarks by saying what good amendments and new clauses have been tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire. I am very happy to accept new clause 5—tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin), the Conservative Front-Bench spokesman—in the context that I suggested, but I hope that the House will reject the Liberal Democrat amendments, which are full of muddle and confusion.
      Mr. Morley: Before I turn to this group of amendments, it is worth responding to a few of the comments made by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), who made a very interesting contribution. We touched on such issues on Second Reading. Although he is right about the problems of leakages, the regulator sets targets for leakage reduction, in which there has been a 30 per cent. reduction.
      The Bill reflects the Government's view of taking a pragmatic approach to competition. We may differ about that, but the right hon. Gentleman is right to suggest that competition can produce greater efficiency and reduce prices. However, we also need to balance that against the possible effects on health, the environment and consumer prices, particularly if there is an element of cherry-picking that disturbs the cross-subsidy that can occur in water companies, especially between rural and urban areas, an example that has already been mentioned. The 50-megalitre target has been set to give the potential benefits of competition to some 2,300 water users—generally the larger water users—in the public and private sectors. Under the Bill, they will be able to examine the potential for incomers who may wish to offer a different service and different prices in a competitive way. The provision will be reviewed in due course, so that we can examine its impact and potential benefits. If this element of competition is considered a success, it could be extended. This is a pragmatic approach to a provision that could bring benefits.
      Nor do we ignore the point that the right hon. Member for Wokingham made about water management and long-term projection. Water companies are already obliged to have a 25-year forward plan that considers changes in water consumption and demand, and to have drought plans in times of water shortage, for example. Given this year's exceptionally low rainfall, water management has been pretty good overall, although our reserves are getting very low. If normal winter rainfall occurs, there should be no problem, but there may be a need for some short-term measures such as recharging reservoirs from rivers. However, that is all catered for through existing mechanisms.
      Amendments Nos. 19 and 14 would require the Secretary of State to appoint a chairman and chief executive to the proposed new authority. I have no problem with the idea of a separate chairman and chief executive. After our discussion in Committee, I re-

      63
      examined the recommendations in the Better Regulation Task Force report and discovered that the Bill is indeed drafted in such a way as to comply with them. The report recognises that there are advantages and disadvantages to separating the roles. Although splitting them may be preferable, to do so may not be appropriate in all cases. The report states that, for example, there are merits in combining the roles when a regulator is first set up. Doing so can help to smooth the transition and the teething pains associated with setting up or reconstituting a new body. Later, it might be appropriate to split the roles, but it makes sense to retain flexibility, so that we can make the right decision based on all the current circumstances.
      Mr. Lansley: I am grateful to the Minister for at least partially answering the question, but of course, the Better Regulation Task Force report that he quotes from predates the Higgs report and the new combined code of corporate governance. When the Government constitute the authority, do they intend to appoint a non-executive chairman and a chief executive, or to combine the two roles into one?
      Mr. Morley: It would be premature to give an opinion on that, because the legislation is not in place and we have first to consult the devolved Welsh Assembly, as is only right and proper. There are also consultation procedures that must be gone through.
      Amendments Nos. 20 and 21 deal with the board's size and non-executive make-up. Again, I have checked, and the Bill's provisions fulfil the taskforce's recommendations. The report clearly states that, although the taskforce recommends that all regulators should have a board, its size is for the regulator and the parent Government body to decide. The Bill is in line with that conclusion, in that it provides broad parameters but does not dictate the structure. Given the regulator's existing duties, I would certainly expect it to have rather more than just three members. But the taskforce's earlier report pressed for a reduced regulatory role if the market allows for that, which would suggest a much smaller regulator.
      On the balance of executive and non-executive directors, the taskforce recommends that at least half the board, excluding the chairman, should be non-executive. The make-up of the non-statutory Ofwat board already meets that recommendation. When Ofgem was set up, it had five executive and six non-executive members; such an alternative is also a possibility. We agree that there is value in the point made by the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley), but we prefer to avoid the problems that could arise if such a provision were set down in the Bill and operated in, for example, the case of vacancies. However, the structure of the non-statutory board of Ofwat provides a very fair balance and meets the points that he made.
      5.45 pm
      The taskforce report also emphasised the need for flexibility and the importance of avoiding a one-size-fits-all approach to setting up and managing a regulatory
      64
      body. Although it is too early for the official Government response to the taskforce recommendations, I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that, in appointing the board, the Secretary of State will apply the recommendations and any other developments in best practice. That will also take into account the report "Independent Regulators" of October 2003.
      Under new clause 10, the authority would have a duty to carry out impact assessments of any proposals that it makes that may lead to a change in its activities or that may have a significant impact on the water and sewerage industry or the general public. Ofwat's work with the greatest impact is, by its very nature, the periodic review of water prices. The whole review process is structured like a regulatory impact assessment but on a huge scale. It includes the preparation of broad methodology, the proposal and challenge of investment options, assessment of possible efficiency gains and financing prospects, and repeat consultation with companies and other stakeholders. We are in the middle of that detailed and thorough process, so new clause 10 is effectively asking for a regulatory impact assessment on a regulatory impact assessment. Such a provision is not necessary in the Bill.
      We concede that RIAs are good regulatory practice and Ofwat is already committed to carrying out such assessments of new policies or policy changes that are expected to have a direct effect on water and sewerage companies or other stakeholders. That is set out in Ofwat's recently published code of practice, which will become a statutory requirement under the Bill. The requirement for RIAs will be a statutory requirement in the Bill. As I have recognised, such duties have been placed on other economic regulators, most notably Ofgem under the Sustainable Energy Act 2003.
      The new clause would require the authority to carry out an impact assessment for all major activities regardless of where the initiative originated. One problem with that is that many water initiatives originate in the European Union, and we already carry out RIAs on them. By leaving such a requirement out of the Bill, the authority will be able to decide when an impact assessment is genuinely needed, reflecting the context of this particular regulator.
      Amendments Nos. 127 to 130 seek to put into statute the requirement on the Secretary of State to carry out an RIA whenever standards of performance are proposed under these clauses. The amendments would apply only when the initial proposal was the Secretary of State's, but not when Ofwat was proposing the standards. We certainly support the intention behind the amendments, but we do not think it necessary to place such a provision in the Bill. The Secretary of State is already committed to producing an RIA as well as to widespread statutory consultation whenever these clauses are used to propose standards of performance. Hon. Members may recall that we reaffirmed that commitment in the RIA that accompanied the Bill, stating that a separate RIA would be prepared every time the power was used. We are also committed to producing separate assessments that take account of the environmental, public health, competitive and social impacts of proposals.

      65
      Amendments Nos. 128 and 130 would seek to prevent the Secretary of State from making regulations if the RIA showed that the costs outweighed the benefits. That consideration is an integral part of the RIA process.
      Amendment No. 22 proposes to allow the authority discretion to apply an alternative pricing principle. That risks access and wholesale prices being unduly linked only to costs incurred in serving a particular customer while ignoring certain other common costs. I am not content that such a pricing process would deliver the Government's objectives for competition in the water industry.
      Mr. Lansley: I am disappointed that the Minister has not read amendment No. 22 to find out that its structure expressly allows for fixed costs to be attributed, so it does not address only costs that were directly attributable to the customer in question.
      Mr. Morley: I understand the hon. Gentleman's point but risks would accompany that approach. We are worried that incoming competitors could cherry-pick benefits. That would work against the interests of consumers, especially those in high-cost areas such as rural areas.
      I listened carefully when the hon. Gentleman cited the examples of Postcomm and Ofgem, but water is not like other utilities. There is no national network for water and costs are inevitably highly localised. Within any tariff group, therefore, there are geographical cross-subsidies. Allowing access and wholesale prices to be based on direct costs alone would lead to the unwinding of those geographical cross-subsidies, which would permit the entry of suppliers in low-cost areas even if they were less efficient than the undertaker. That would prompt undertakers to raise prices in high-cost areas, such as rural areas, to cover their costs, which is my worry.
      Although there are essentially no cross-subsidies between tariff groups, there are common costs that undertakers have to incur to meet important statutory and social obligations, such as providing free fire-fighting water and lead pipe replacement programmes. Those costs are not associated with a specific customer, so under the amendment a new entrant could avoid some or all of them. The result of that would be that other customers, including households, would have to bear a greater share of the total cost.
      New clause 5 would give water and sewerage companies greater certainty about the policy intention, and likely outcome, of the periodic review. Despite the intention that the provision should clarify the review process, I do not think that it is necessary and fear that its impact would do more harm than good. Ofwat already produces and consults on a comprehensive methodology for the periodic review. It is in the regulator's interest to understand concerns about the review and the impact that it might have on those that it regulates. Given the thorough nature of the periodic review process, I cannot understand how it would benefit from the additional long and rigid timetable that the new clause would impose.
      The new right of appeal that new clause 5 would offer to companies would be excessive and could considerably lengthen an already long process. It would strengthen
      66
      the interests of companies against those of consumers still further. The balance has to be right but the provision would not achieve that. The Better Regulation Task Force report on independent regulators that was published in October had important things to say about regulatory appeals. It commented on stakeholders' ability to appeal, including those on whose behalf regulation is carried out, who include consumers. It also said that stakeholders should not be able to use an appeal mechanism merely to delay a decision that a regulator has to make. New clause 5 fails to address both those points.
      New clause 7 would widen the scope for companies to question the validity of enforcement orders issued by Ofwat or the Secretary of State if conditions of appointment or relevant statutory duties had not been met. That is not necessary because the Water Industry Act 1991 already provides a transparent appeal system that ensures that Ofwat acts appropriately when issuing an enforcement order.
      New clause 6 would require the Secretary of State, the Assembly and the authority to consult the Health and Safety Commission and undertakers about safety matters. I reassure the House that that has already been agreed in a memorandum of understanding between the HSC and the water regulators.
      Amendment No. 18 would require the authority to include in its forward work programme a description of how the projects that it plans to undertake would deliver its wider objectives and duties. Although I do not disagree with the general intention of the amendment, it is not necessary because the authority will have the power only to carry out an activity that complies with its overall duties, and Ofwat is already committed to monitoring performance against objectives.
      Amendments Nos. 29 to 31, which were tabled by the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas), would strengthen the role played by the National Assembly for Wales in the appointment of the authority. There is careful consultation between the Secretary of State and the Assembly and they have a close relationship that works very well. The amendments would ensure that the Secretary of State would consult the Assembly before appointing any member of the authority. The Secretary of State is committed to working with the Assembly constructively and openly, as has been demonstrated on many occasions. With that in mind, I believe that the amendments are unnecessary.
      I hope that I have answered all questions asked by hon. Members and commend the Government amendments to the House.
      Mr. Wiggin: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) for making an excellent speech in which he drew attention to the importance of Wales; I am more than inclined to agree. He accurately drew attention to the 50-megalitre limit and loss through waste.
      Having listened to the Minister's reply, I feel strongly that he failed to answer the excellent question put by my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley). Therefore, it is our intention to support amendment No. 19. With that in mind, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
      Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

    Schedule 1

      THE WATER SERVICES REGULATION AUTHORITY
      Amendment proposed: No. 19, in page 135, line 8, after 'chairman', insert', a chief executive'.—[Mr. Lansley.]
      Question put, That the amendment be made:—
      The House divided: Ayes 160, Noes 282.

      Division No. 355]

      [5:56 pm

      AYES

      Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

      Heath, David

      Allan, Richard

      Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

      Ancram, rh Michael

      Hendry, Charles

      Arbuthnot, rh James

      Hoban, Mark (Fareham)

      Bacon, Richard

      Hogg, rh Douglas

      Baker, Norman

      Horam, John (Orpington)

      Barker, Gregory

      Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

      Baron, John (Billericay)

      Hunter, Andrew

      Barrett, John

      Jack, rh Michael

      Beith, rh A. J.

      Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

      Bellingham, Henry

      Jenkin, Bernard

      Bercow, John

      Johnson, Boris (Henley)

      Beresford, Sir Paul

      Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)

      Blunt, Crispin

      Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

      Key, Robert (Salisbury)

      Brady, Graham

      Kirkbride, Miss Julie

      Brazier, Julian

      Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

      Breed, Colin

      Laing, Mrs Eleanor

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      Lait, Mrs Jacqui

      Burns, Simon

      Lamb, Norman

      Burstow, Paul

      Lansley, Andrew

      Butterfill, John

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Leigh, Edward

      Calton, Mrs Patsy

      Letwin, rh Oliver

      Cameron, David

      Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)

      Cash, William

      Lidington, David

      Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

      Lilley, rh Peter

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Loughton, Tim

      Collins, Tim

      Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

      Conway, Derek

      Mackay, rh Andrew

      Cran, James (Beverley)

      McLoughlin, Patrick

      Curry, rh David

      Malins, Humfrey

      Davey, Edward (Kingston)

      Maples, John

      Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

      Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)

      Djanogly, Jonathan

      Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

      Doughty, Sue

      May, Mrs Theresa

      Duncan, Alan (Rutland)

      Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

      Evans, Nigel

      Fabricant, Michael

      Moss, Malcolm

      Fallon, Michael

      Murrison, Dr. Andrew

      Flook, Adrian

      Norman, Archie

      Forth, rh Eric

      Oaten, Mark (Winchester)

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

      Fox, Dr. Liam

      Osborne, George (Tatton)

      Garnier, Edward

      Ottaway, Richard

      George, Andrew (St. Ives)

      Page, Richard

      Gibb, Nick (BognorRegis)

      Paterson, Owen

      Goodman, Paul

      Pickles, Eric

      Gray, James (N Wilts)

      Portillo, rh Michael

      Grayling, Chris

      Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

      Green, Damian (Ashford)

      Greenway, John

      Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

      Grieve, Dominic

      Pugh, Dr. John

      Hague, rh William

      Redwood, rh John

      Hammond, Philip

      Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)

      Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)

      Rendel, David

      Robathan, Andrew

      Harvey, Nick

      Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)

      Hawkins, Nick

      Hayes, John (S Holland)

      Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

      Heald, Oliver

      Roe, Mrs Marion

      68

      Rosindell, Andrew

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Ruffley, David

      Tredinnick, David

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

      Sanders, Adrian

      Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

      Sayeed, Jonathan

      Tyrie, Andrew

      Selous, Andrew

      Walter, Robert

      Shepherd, Richard

      Waterson, Nigel

      Simmonds, Mark

      Watkinson, Angela

      Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

      Webb' Steve (Northavon)

      Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

      Whittingdale, John

      Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

      Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

      Wiggin, Bill

      Soames, Nicholas

      Willetts, David

      Spring, Richard

      Williams, Hywel Caernarfon)

      Streeter, Gary

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Swire, Hugo (E Devon)

      Willis, Phil

      Syms, Robert

      Wilshire, David

      Tapsell, Sir Peter

      Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

      Taylor, John (Solihull)

      Young, rh Sir George

      Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

      Younger-Ross, Richard

      Taylor, Sir Teddy

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Teather, Sarah

      Mr. Mark Francois and

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Mr. John Randall

      NOES

      Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Ainger, Nick

      Colman, Tony

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

      Allen, Graham

      Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Cooper, Yvette

      Atkins, Charlotte

      Cousins, Jim

      Austin, John

      Cox, Tom (Tooting)

      Bailey, Adrian

      Crausby, David

      Baird, Vera

      Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

      Banks, Tony

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Barnes, Harry

      Cummings, John

      Barron, rh Kevin

      Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)

      Beard, Nigel

      Bell, Stuart

      Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

      Bennett, Andrew

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Betts, Clive

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Blackman, Liz

      David, Wayne

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Davidson, Ian

      Blizzard, Bob

      Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

      Boateng, rh Paul

      Dawson, Hilton

      Borrow, David

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

      Denham, rh John

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Dhanda, Parmjit

      Brennan, Kevin

      Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

      Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

      Dobson, rh Frank

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Doran, Frank

      Browne, Desmond

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      Bryant, Chris

      Drew, David (Stroud)

      Buck, Ms Karen

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Burden, Richard

      Edwards, Huw

      Burnham, Andy

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

      Caborn, rh Richard

      Etherington, Bill

      Cairns, David

      Farrelly, Paul

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Fisher, Mark

      Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

      Fitzpatrick, Jim

      Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Challen, Colin

      Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      Chaytor, David

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

      Gardiner, Barry

      Gerrard, Neil

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Gibson, Dr. Ian

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

      Gilroy, Linda

      Godsiff, Roger

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Goggins, Paul

      Clelland, David

      Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

      Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      Coaker, Vernon

      Grogan, John

      69

      Hain, rh Peter

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      Mandelson, rh Peter

      Hanson, David

      Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Healey, John

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

      Marshall-Andrews, Robert

      Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

      Martlew, Eric

      Hendrick, Mark

      Meacher, rh Michael

      Heppell, John

      Meale, Alan (Mansfield)

      Hesford, Stephen

      Merron, Gillian

      Hill, Keith (Streatham)

      Michael, rh Alun

      Hinchliffe, David

      Milburn, rh Alan

      Hodge, Margaret

      Miliband, David

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Miller, Andrew

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

      Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

      Moffatt, Laura

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

      Mole, Chris

      Moonie, Dr. Lewis

      Hoyle, Lindsay

      Morley, Elliot

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Mullin, Chris

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

      Hutton, rh John

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Iddon, Dr. Brian

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Illsley, Eric

      Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

      Olner, Bill

      O'Neill, Martin

      Jamieson, David

      Organ, Diana

      Jenkins, Brian

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

      Picking, Anne

      Pickthall, Colin

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Plaskitt, James

      Jones, Kevan (N Durham)

      Pollard, Kerry

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

      Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

      Pound, Stephen

      Kaufman, rh Gerald

      Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

      Keen, Alan (Feltham)

      Kidney, David

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      Kilfoyle, Peter

      Prosser, Gwyn

      King, Andy (Rugby)

      Purchase, Ken

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

      Purnell, James

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

      Rammell, Bill

      Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

      Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

      Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

      Reed, Andy (Loughborough)

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

      Leslie, Christopher

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

      Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Linton, Martin

      Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

      Ruane, Chris

      Luke, lain (Dundee E)

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

      Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

      McCabe, Stephen

      Salter, Martin

      McCafferty, Chris

      Savidge, Malcolm

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Sawford, Phil

      MacDonald, Calum

      Sedgemore, Brian

      McDonnell, John

      Shaw, Jonathan

      MacDougall, John

      Sheerman, Barry

      McGuire, Mrs Anne

      Sheridan, Jim

      McIsaac, Shona

      Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)

      McKechin, Ann

      Singh, Marsha

      McKenna, Rosemary

      Skinner, Dennis

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)

      McNamara, Kevin

      Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)

      McNulty, Tony

      MacShane, Denis

      Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      McWalter, Tony

      Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

      70

      Soley, Clive

      Vis, Dr. Rudi

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Steinberg, Gerry

      Ward, Claire

      Stevenson, George

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)

      Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

      Watts, David

      Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

      white. Brian

      Stringer, Graham

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Stuart, Ms Gisela

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Sutcliffe Gerry

      Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Tami, Mark (Alyn)

      Williams' Betty (Conwy)

      Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

      Winnick' David

      Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

      Winterton. Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

      Wood, Mike (Batley)

      Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

      Woolas Phil

      Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

      Worthington, Tony

      Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

      Wray James (Glasgow Baillieston)

      Tipping, Paddy

      Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

      Wrignt Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

      Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

      Trickett, Jon

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Truswell, Paul

      Wyatt, Derek

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Twigg, Derek (Halton)

      Mr. Fraser Kemp and

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Margaret Moran

      Question accordingly negatived.
      It being six o'clock MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of business to be concluded at that hour, pursuant to Order [5 November].

    Clause 35

      CONSUMER COUNCIL FOR WATER
      Amendment made: No. 86, in page 39, leave out lines 40 to 42 and insert—
      '( ) The Council shall exercise and perform its powers and duties in the manner which it considers is best calculated to contribute to the achievement of sustainable development.'.—[Mr. Morley.]

    Clause 54
      DETERMINATION REFERENCES UNDER SECTION 12 OF THE WIA
      Amendment made: No. 87, in page 70, line 1, leave out '14A and 14B' and insert '16A and 16B'.—[Mr. Morley.]
    Clause 55

      CONDITIONS OF APPOINTMENTS UNDER THE WIA
      Amendments made: No. 88, in page 73, line 24, leave out 'has been' and insert 'is'.
      No. 89, in page 73, line 27, leave out from 'which' to 'within' in line 28 and insert
      'such a direction may be given'.—[Mr. Morley.]

    New Clause 14

      SCHEMES FOR THE ADOPTION OF SEWERS, LATERAL DRAINS AND SEWAGE DISPOSAL WORKS
      'After section 105 of the WIA there is inserted—
      "105A Schemes for the adoption of sewers, lateral drains and sewage disposal works
      (1) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide for him to make schemes for the adoption by sewerage undertakers of sewers, lateral drains and sewage disposal works of the descriptions set out in paragraphs (a),(aa) and (b) of section 102(1) above.
      (2) The regulations may require sewerage undertakers to prepare draft schemes and to submit them to the Secretary of State.
      (3) Each scheme shall relate to—

      (a) the area of a sewerage undertaker, or part or parts of it; or

      (b) the areas of more than one sewerage undertaker, or part or parts of them.

      (4) It shall be the duty of a sewerage undertaker, in specified circumstances, to exercise its powers under section 102 above with a view to making the declaration referred to in subsection (1) of that section in relation to sewers, lateral drains or sewage disposal works which—

      (a) fall within the area to which a scheme relates; and

      (b) satisfy specified criteria.

      (5) The circumstances and the criteria shall each be—

      (a) specified in the regulations; or

      (b) determined in accordance with the regulations and specified in the scheme.

      (6) In relation to the exercise of those powers pursuant to that duty—

      (a) section 102 above shall have effect—

      (i) with the omission of subsections (2), (5) and (7);

      (ii) as if in subsection (1) the words "sections 103, 105 and 146(3) below" read "section 105B below";

      (iii) with the omission of the words "or application" in subsection (3);

      (iv) as if for subsection (4)(a) there were substituted—

      "shall give notice of its proposal to the owner or owners of the sewer, lateral drain or works in question unless, after diligent enquiry, he or they cannot be traced;
      shall publish notice of its proposal in the prescribed manner; and";

      (v) as if in subsection (4)(b) "two months" read "two months or, if longer, the period specified by virtue of section 105B(5) below" and "section 105 below" read "section 105B(4) or (5) below, or "; and

      (vi) as if section 96(3) of the Water Act 2003 did not apply;

      (b) sections 103 and 105 above shall not apply; and

      (c) if the regulations so provide, section 146(3) below shall not apply in circumstances or cases specified in the regulations.

      (7) A duty imposed on a sewerage undertaker under subsection (4) above shall be enforceable by the Secretary of State under section 18 above.
      (8) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (1) above shall not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.
      105B Adoption schemes: appeals
      (1) Any person falling within subsection (2) below may appeal to the Authority if he is aggrieved by—

      (a) the proposal of a sewerage undertaker to make a declaration under section 102 above in relation to a sewer, lateral drain or sewage disposal works, pursuant to the undertaker's duty to do so under section 105A(4) above (the "relevant duty"); or

      (b) the failure of a sewerage undertaker to make such a proposal pursuant to that duty.

      (2) The persons referred to are—

      (a) an owner of a sewer, lateral drain or sewage disposal works;

      (b) any other person affected by the proposal, or the failure, in question.

      (3) The grounds upon which a person may appeal are—

      (a) in a subsection (1)(a) case, that the relevant duty is not owed in relation to the sewer, lateral drain or sewage disposal works, or that the making of the proposed declaration would be seriously detrimental to him;

      (b) in a subsection (1)(b) case, that the relevant duty is owed in relation to the sewer, lateral drain or sewage disposal works; or

      (c) any other prescribed ground.

      (4) An appeal under subsection (1)(a) above shall be made within two months after notice of the proposal is—

      (a) served on the owner of the sewer, lateral drain or sewage disposal works; or

      (b) published in accordance with section 102(4) above as modified by section 105A(6) above,

      (or, if both occur, within two months after whichever is the later).
      (5) An appeal under subsection (1)(b) above shall be made within such period as is specified in the scheme (not being less than two months).
      (6) On the hearing of an appeal under subsection (1) above, the Authority may—

      (a) in a subsection (1)(a) case, allow or disallow the proposal of the sewerage undertaker; or

      (b) in a subsection (1)(b) case, determine that the undertaker was not under the relevant duty in relation to the sewer, lateral drain or sewage disposal works in question,

      or, in either case, make any declaration that the sewerage undertaker might have made, unless the proposal is disallowed.
      (7) If, in a subsection (1)(a) case, the Authority finds that the making of the proposed declaration would be seriously detrimental to the appellant, it shall disregard any duty on the part of the sewerage undertaker to make the proposal for the purpose of determining whether to allow or disallow the proposal.
      (8) If, in a subsection (1)(a) case, the Authority disallows the proposal of the sewerage undertaker, the scheme pursuant to which it was made shall have effect as if there were no duty under section 105A(4) above on the sewerage undertaker in relation to the sewer, lateral drain or sewage disposal works in question.
      (9) Where the Authority makes a declaration under subsection (6) above, it may, if it thinks fit—

      (a) specify conditions, including conditions as to the payment of compensation by the sewerage undertaker; and

      (b) direct that its declaration shall not take effect unless any conditions so specified are accepted.

      (10) A declaration made under subsection (6) above shall have the same effect as if it had been made by the undertaker.
      (11) The Secretary of State may by regulations make further provision in connection with appeals under this section.
      (12) The regulations may, in particular, require the Authority to have regard to prescribed matters when determining an appeal under this section.
      105C Adoption schemes: supplementary
      (1) The Secretary of State may vary any scheme, or revoke it.
      (2) Before making regulations or any scheme under section 105A above, and before amending or revoking the regulations or varying or revoking a scheme, the Secretary of State shall consult—

      (a) each sewerage undertaker which would be affected;

      (b) the Authority;

      73

      (c) the Council;

      (d) such other persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.

      (3) The Secretary of State shall publish each scheme he makes, and any such scheme as varied, in the way he considers best for the purpose of bringing it to the attention of those likely to be affected by it.".'.—[Mr. Morley.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Mr. Morley: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
      New clause 8—Discharges to watercourses—
      '(1)After section 165 of the WIA, there is inserted—
      "165A Power to discharge to watercourses
      (1) Subject to the following provisions of this section, every sewerage undertaker may, for the purpose of carrying out its functions, discharge water with or without other matter from any relevant pipe into any watercourse.
      (2) Nothing in this section shall authorise any discharge which—

      (a) damages or injuriously affects the works or property of any railway undertakers, navigation authority or riparian owner; or

      (b) floods or damages any highway.

      (3) Nothing in this section shall be construed as permitting the making of any discharge without the authority of any consent that may be required by virtue of Part III of the Water Resources Act 1991.
      (4) The provisions of paragraph 6 of Schedule 12 to this Act shall apply to the exercise of the powers conferred by subsection (1) above.
      (5) In this section 'relevant pipe' means any sewer, stormwater overflow, sewer, disposal main, lateral drain or outfall owned by or vested in a sewerage undertaker."
      (2) In section 219(I) of the WIA (general interpretation), in the definition of "accessories", after "washout pipes," there is inserted "outfalls (with ancillary works)".
      (3) In Schedule 12 to the WIA (compensation etc.in respect of pipelaying and other works powers)—

      (a) in paragraph 6(1)(a), after "section 165" there is inserted "for section 165A"; and

      (b) in paragraph 6(2)(b), after "section 165 of this Act" there is inserted ", or of water or effluent under section 165A of this Act.".'.

      New clause 13—Power to require adoption of private sewers in Wales—
      'After section 102 of the WIA there is inserted—
      "102A Power to require adoption of private sewers in Wales
      (1) As regards Wales the National Assembly for Wales may by regulations establish a scheme to enable a sewerage undertaker to be required to adopt a sewer to which this section applies.
      (2) A scheme under this section may apply to any sewer which is—

      (a) situated within the area of a sewerage undertaker or which serves the whole of or any part of that area; and

      (b) not vested in a sewerage undertaker.

      (3) Regulations under subsection (1) may amend section 105 so as to extend the appeals procedure to the scheme, provided that the appeal shall be heard by a person other than the person imposing the requirement to adopt.".'.
      Government amendments Nos. 100 and 101.
      Government amendments Nos. 103 and 121.
      Mr. Morley: In Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Paddy Tipping) tabled an amendment that aimed to tackle the serious problems caused by private sewers. Indeed, that issue was raised by Committee members from all parties. The Government are well aware of these problems and are keen to take positive action, which is why we commissioned an extensive research project into the extent of private sewers and published a public consultation document. With that in mind, I told my hon. Friend that we would introduce a suitable Government amendment to deal with the thrust of the argument that he and other Committee members had made.
      We considered a number of alternatives, and I am pleased to say that we thought that my hon. Friend's proposal was the most appropriate. New clause 14 gives the Secretary of State power to make regulations to allow schemes for the adoption of private sewers. Government amendment No. 103 ensures that the Welsh Assembly has the power to make regulations under the proposed new section if it so chooses. It is important to note that the new clause is an enabling power, and is not a recipe for the wholesale transfer of private sewers to sewerage undertakers. Furthermore, the regulations are subject to the affirmative procedure to allow full parliamentary scrutiny before they are made.
      The Government have not yet made any decisions on the best way forward on private sewers. The new clause allows adoption, if a decision is made to pursue that course of action, and offers flexibility to ensure that we introduce a sensible solution following full consideration of the range of options. As my hon. Friend knows, we discussed in Committee the fact that we would hold a public consultation and respond to the options that people favour. We still have a lot of work to do on the best way forward on private sewers. The new clause gives us an opportunity to introduce adoption in various forms, but the Bill includes the enabling powers for which my hon. Friend, supported by other Committee members, was arguing.
      Mr. David Drew: May I tell my hon. Friend how much we welcome the provision? I am sure that all Committee members share that sentiment. However, will my hon. Friend give me an idea of time scale? I accept that the new clause is an enabling provision, but some people who welcome it will want to know how long it will be before the consultation is complete and the Government have considered its implications. More particularly, with regard to cases where there is a crucial need for action, when will the provision be implemented?
      Mr. Morley: I understand my hon. Friend's point. The most important thing is to respond to the public consultation, and we hope to reach that milestone in the near future. There is, as I have said, a great deal of work to do, not least in taking stakeholders' views into account. That will take time, but it is difficult to say how long. However, as a rough guide, I expect the Government's response to the public consultation to be made within the next six months. Inevitably, however,

      75
      further work will need to be done. It is difficult to give an exact time scale, but there is quite a lot to do before we can put the provision in place, which is why the enabling power was included in the Bill.
      6.15 pm
      We have provided for an appeals procedure and appropriate consultation, both on the regulations and each scheme. Work is under way to evaluate the responses to the consultation, and further consultation is likely as we narrow down the choices on the best way forward. Following discussions with the all-party group on sewers and sewerage, I know that its members have views on the subject to which the Government would like to listen. Considerations will include obvious financial implications for the generality of customers, and clearly it will be important to weigh up the balance of the different interests. We will continue to make that a priority and involve everyone with an interest, including, of course, colleagues in the House. Indeed, I am grateful for the interest that has been shown in this matter, and found discussions with the all-party group helpful.
      The new clause was tabled to demonstrate that we are serious about tackling the problems faced by householders, and I am pleased to commend it to the House. I should also like to commend Government amendments Nos. 100, 101 and 121, which are minor, consequential amendments.
      Mr. Wiggin: I shall speak to new clause 8, which seeks to ensure that sewerage industries can discharge water into any watercourse that will not flood or damage any of those covered by subsections (2)(a) and (b) of proposed new section 165 of the Water Industry Act 1991. Sewerage undertakers' former power to effect discharges from public sewers and their other pipes needs to be restored, subject to certain safeguards for affected landowners riparian owners and public bodies. No damage or interference must be caused to the property or operations of railway undertakers, navigation authorities, riparian owners or highway authorities; all necessary consents to discharge to watercourses must be obtained from the Environment Agency in accordance with the Water Resources Act 1991 for the avoidance of pollution; and full compensation must be paid to those adversely affected by such discharges, in accordance with paragraph 6 of schedule 12 to the Water Industry Act.
      Sewerage undertakers should have the right to discharge the contents of public sewers and other pipes into watercourses and canals because, without that right, they currently have to obtain a compulsory purchase order, which can take up to two years. This is what proposed new section 165A of the Water Industry Act seeks to achieve, reflecting the principles of section 165 of that Act, which authorises the discharge by water undertakers of water to watercourses for the purpose of facilitating the carrying-out of works.
      New clause 14, which the Minister introduced, is obviously welcomed by people who are discharging into private sewers, and I am delighted that he listened to comments by Committee members from all parties.
      76
      Strong feelings were expressed, especially by Members representing areas where large numbers of people were discharging into, or taking their water from, a single source. Members on all sides of the House believe that the issue needs to be addressed positively, for the benefit of both water companies and customers. Obviously, there are significant cost implications for water companies, and the Minister recognises how important they are.
      I shall not say any more as I know that we need to cover a great deal more business.
      Paddy Tipping: I wish to place on record my thanks to my hon. Friend the Minister, his officials and, looking at the complexity of new clause 14, parliamentary counsel. I am delighted that we are making progress on the issue with which the new clause deals and that my hon. Friend has responded to constituency concerns throughout the country. The powers are permissive and enabling, and the next task of my hon. Friends the Members for Stroud (Mr. Drew) and for Rugby and Kenilworth (Andy King), who have campaigned long and hard on this issue, and I will be to put them into practice. The aspect of the W. S. Atkins report—an initiative brought forward by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—that struck me most was the scale of the problem. We all knew that there was a problem, but we were astonished at its degree and depth across the country.
      As the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin) said, there are significant cost implications. We will have to wait and see the outcome of the consultation. I do not want to prejudge that outcome, but the responses received so far suggest that the option of passing ownership of the sewers to water and sewerage undertakers, as set out in the Atkins report, is probably the easiest and most popular way forward. That has clear cost implications. The only meaningful way forward would apply over a period of years. I repeat that point—it is over a period of years that one would want to share the cost with consumers in general. That issue will have to be taken into account in discussions on the next price review period.
      I am delighted that we have made so much progress. I know that people in Newark and Sherwood, in a small part of my constituency where 1,441 people are affected, are delighted that we are making progress. We must now ensure that the principles agreed to in the Bill are put into practice, but I accept that that will take time.
      Mr. Simon Thomas: I welcome the new measures. We debated them in Committee, where hon. Members from all parties mentioned the various parts of their constituencies that they will affect. I could spend the next 20 minutes listing some wonderful Welsh names in referring to places that are affected by bad sewerage, but I do not think that that is necessary to secure the progress of the measure. What the Minister has said makes new clause 13 redundant—a proposal that attempted to achieve the same purpose as new clause 14 in the Welsh context. Government amendment No. 103 will insert into the Water Industry Act 1991 the measures in new clause 14 so that the National Assembly for Wales will be able to make its own scheme.
      Further down the line, there will be huge issues about costs, surveying and so on. As constituency Members of Parliament, we all know about the problems that will

      77
      arise, but a very important principle has been established tonight—we are dealing with a public health issue. What we call private sewers fulfil some of the most essential functions in our public health system. If we cannot get this matter right, what we are seeking to achieve in the Bill in securing higher environmental standards, water quality and water saving and conservation will be for naught. That will be the case if we cannot ensure over the next 10 to 20 years that our sewerage system is updated to meet the needs of an expanding 21st century economy, rather than those of the expanding 19th century economy, as at present.
      Those are the important principles to which the Government have agreed. I will not say that they have conceded those points, as that might suggest that some sort of battle has occurred. Instead, there has been a debate, progress has been made and the Government have rightly acknowledged that those issues need to be resolved and have recognised that the new clause is probably the best way of resolving them in the context of the Bill. I am sure that many of us would have liked to see a bit more detail in the provisions and that we could all suggest what the best approach might be. Nevertheless, an important principle has been laid down. There will be schemes and each of them will be considered on its merit, and a proper authority will look at that process—the National Assembly for Wales and the Secretary of State in England.
      We now have an opportunity to improve our sewerage system to meet the required needs, as well as to make a huge impact on the environment and on some aspects of public health. Everyone who has had sewage in their garden will be thankful for what has happened in the House tonight.
      Mr. Drew: I wish to make a very narrow point. I could have intervened on my hon. Friend the Minister a second time to raise it, but I thought it better to do so in a short speech. We have been reassured about the time scale—I heard what he said and welcome it—but my next point follows from what my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Paddy Tipping) said and relates to cost implications. When we see the different options and get some clarity about which we prefer and how we might adopt more than one, if that is what is proposed, can the process be dealt with in secondary legislation? Having introduced the enabling powers, we would not want to have to wait until the next water Bill was introduced to carry into action exactly what all of us want to achieve in respect of the adoption of private sewers. If my hon. Friend the Minister clarifies that situation, an awful lot of people will be listening. I am sure that they will welcome the moves that the Government have already made, as well as their intentions.
      Andy King: I shall be extremely brief; as my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Paddy Tipping) rightly said in Committee, "Enough said—job done."
      The Minister and his Department must take enormous credit for allowing the new clause into the Bill. Originally, such provision did not feature in the Bill at all, and many of us were afraid that we would miss a once-in-a-Parliament opportunity to remedy a serious situation. Although the new clause does not go as far as
      78
      we would have liked, it has gone a long way in beginning to put right the anomalous situation that has arisen. I look forward to working with my hon. Friend the Minister, his officials and the water companies through the all-party group on sewers and sewerage, of which colleagues in all parts of the House are members and to which he has made a valuable contribution. I look forward to discussing these matters with him and W. S. Atkins in the near future. The people of the Woodlands residents association, of which I am a member—I have declared my interest—will be very happy.
      Mr. Morley: There is still some time to go.
      Andy King: It will happen some time in future, but we look forward to that day.
      Mr. Morley: I think that there is an argument for protecting controlled waters, and that may sometimes involve compensation and protection against pollution, so I cannot accept new clause 8, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin).
      The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) rightly said that I had dealt with the concerns he raised in new clause 13. Furthermore, I appreciated very much the points made by my hon. Friends the Members for Stroud (Mr. Drew), for Rugby and Kenilworth (Andy King) and for Sherwood (Paddy Tipping).
      I repeat that there is obviously a lot of work to be done, and the matter will not be dealt with in the short term. Nevertheless, the powers in the Bill allow us to deal with what we recognise to be a very serious problem throughout the country.
      Question put and agreed to.
      Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

    New Clause 11

      CONSULTATION ON THE COST OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION MEASURES
      'After section 3 of the WIA there is inserted—
      "3A Consultation and liability for expenses incurred in implementing environmental protection regulations
      (1) Where a regulation that takes effect after the enactment of this section requires a water undertaker or sewerage undertaker to incur costs for works to meet environmental protection requirements, the Secretary of State shall carry out a financial impact assessment.
      (2) In making a financial impact assessment for the purposes of this section, the Secretary of State shall report on the balance of the works benefit to local populations and customers of the relevant undertaker as compared with the environmental benefits that are considered to be in the general national interest.
      (3) For the purposes of subsections (1) and (2) above the Secretary of State shall consult—

      (a) the Authority;

      (b) the Council;

      (c) the Environment Agency;

      (d) relevant undertakers;

      (e) such other persons as the Secretary of State considers it appropriate to consult; and

      (f) where the regulations apply to Wales, the Assembly.

      (4) The Secretary of State shall send a copy of the financial impact assessment to all consultees and publish it in such a manner as he considers appropriate.
      (5) The Secretary of State may direct the Environment Agency to exercise his duties under subsections (1) to (4) above.
      (6) Following receipt of a financial impact assessment under this section, the Authority shall, based on the report made for the purposes of subsection (2) above, determine a percentage of the full estimated costs for works required by the relevant regulation or regulations that shall be met by relevant undertakers.
      (7) The Authority shall direct that the remaining percentage of estimated costs is met by all water undertakers or sewerage undertakers, as the case may be, in direct ratio to the number of households to which they provide water services or sewerage services or both as a proportion of the total number of households in England and Wales.
      (8) Following the written request of a water undertaker or sewerage undertaker, in cases where the undertaker has ongoing financial liabilities for works required by regulations made before this section comes into force, the Secretary of State may decide to undertake a financial impact assessment under this section.
      (9) If a financial impact assessment is made under the provisions of subsection (8) above, the Authority shall apply the provisions of subsections (6) and (7) above to the remaining financial liabilities instead of the full estimated costs.
      (10) The Secretary of State must provide an undertaker with a written decision on any request made under subsection (8), and provide explanation of the reasons for his decision, within 12 weeks of receiving any such request from an undertaker.
      (11) The Secretary of State may make regulations for the purposes of this section.".'.—[Norman Baker.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Norman Baker: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
      Amendment No. 132, in clause 57, page 75, line 5, at end insert—
      (11) 'In section 222 (application to Isles of Scilly)—

      (a) in subsection (2), after the word "NRA", there is inserted the words "the Chief Inspector of Drinking Water"; and

      (b) after subsection (2) there is inserted—

      "(2A) The Secretary of State shall, within a period of one year after the coming into force of section 57 of the Water Act 2003, make proposals to the Council of the Isles of Scilly for the making of an order under subsection (2) in relation to the carrying out of the functions of the Chief Inspector of Drinking Water in those Isles.".'.
      Amendment No. 131, in clause 62, page 83, line 36, at end insert—
      '(3A) A water resources management plan that contains proposals for infrastructure investment intended to meet the requirements of an estimated growth in the quantities of water required, made by an undertaker for the purposes of subsection (3)(a) above, must include—

      (a) a least cost planning assessment that shall address in particular the potential effects of investment in—

      (i) water conservation promotion and education;

      (ii) water efficiency technology; and

      (iii) compulsory metering;

      (b) a comparative risk assessment for each infrastructure investment option or alternative proposal considered; and

      (c) such other information as the Secretary of State may specify in directions.'.

      Amendment No. 16, in clause 83, page 100, leave out lines 40 and 41 and insert
      'have a duty to promote water conservation.'.
      Government amendments Nos. 95 and 96.
      Norman Baker: I am grateful to hon. Members who spoke in the previous debate for making their comments brief so as to allow discussion on the next group of amendments. I did not speak in that debate, but I wish to say that the Minister also has the support of the Liberal Democrats in respect of the measures on private sewers. He may reflect on the fact that he has managed to unite the whole House in supporting the Government on that measure. Perhaps he should look for other policies of the same nature. The new clause in question was tabled two hours before a public meeting on sewers that I attended in Polegate in my constituency, and it went down well with the voters.
      New clause 11 deals with water pricing, which is a big issue for consumers and others. The cost of water varies widely, and wildly, from one area to another, and not always on the basis of any deep logic. The post-privatisation arrangements were somewhat unfair, and water pricing inequalities have continued ever since.
      6.30 pm
      A particular problem is that some water and sewerage companies have had to bear disproportionate costs because of the need to undertake environmental improvements. All hon. Members will be in favour of those improvements. Over the past 10 to 15 years, for instance, the quality of bathing water has improved markedly. However, that has had a disproportionate impact on water and sewerage companies in certain areas. The south-west has 30 per cent. of the English and Welsh coastline, but only 3 per cent. of the population—as well as a comparatively high amount of poverty. As a result, a disproportionate burden of environmental protection falls on that population. The Ofwat report, "Tariff structure and charges 2002–2003", shows that the average sewerage component of annual water bills is £125 in England and Wales, but £211 in the south-west. Combined with water provision costs, that makes an average annual combined bill of £326 in the south-west, compared with an average of £228 in the rest of the country.
      The Government's position has always been that as the improvements benefit the local population, it is only right that that population should pay for them. As a principle, that cannot be faulted, but the problem is that environmental improvements in the south-west are not necessarily for the benefit of that region, but for that of the nation as a whole. A nationwide benefit derives from cleaning up our bathing waters that goes beyond that derived in the south-west. Although one could argue that there is a beneficial impact on tourism, for example, the current water pricing system does not take account of the national aspect.
      We all want to enjoy clean beaches and unpolluted coastline, wherever we live. As a Member representing a coastline in the south-east, I do not want to be nimbyish by saying that as long as my coastline is all right, it does not matter what it is like in the south-west. I want the south-west and other areas to be as clean as the south-east. Nevertheless, a different method of pricing is

      81
      required. The same principle applies to any region where the sewerage costs of domestic bills are particularly high because of the need to meet environmental regulations and requirements. New clause 11 seeks to establish the principle that where it can be assumed that a national benefit derives from environmental improvements, their cost should be spread more widely than the water and sewerage company that has to implement those benefits and, by extension, consumers in that area. The position has been made worse by the higgledy-piggledy post-privatisation water pricing arrangements, which should have been sorted out before now.
      Amendment No. 132, which stands in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Andrew George), relates to a water inspectorate for the Isles of Scilly.
      Andrew George: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing attention to that amendment, which is very important to the 2,000 of my constituents who are inhabitants of the Isles of Scilly. The Isles of Scilly have been excluded from some of the provisions in the Bill and in previous Acts. If we are to raise standards in water-related environmental matters, particularly drinking water, on the Isles of Scilly, it is important that such amendments are accepted in order to bring them up to the standards that are taken for granted in other parts of the country.
      Norman Baker: My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is correct that the Isles of the Scilly are excluded from some legislation, but my hon. Friend looks after his constituents assiduously, and I am sure that any omissions are flagged up in this House through amendments and by other means. I hope that the Minister will respond to the point.
      Amendment No. 131, which was tabled in my name and in that of my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Sue Doughty), would introduce a rather radical approach to water infrastructure development—radical in this country, that is, but less so elsewhere. It reflects aspects of best performance in the United States, where energy suppliers are not allowed to build new capacity for generation until they have demonstrated that they can meet by other means the requirements that are placed on them. That is the correct environmental approach, which the amendment would apply to the water industry in this country. It says, in effect, that in meeting the challenge of growing demand for water, it cannot and should not, for environmental reasons, be assumed that the only option is to find a way to supply that extra demand. The Government should not base their framework on "predict and provide". Increased abstraction, new reservoirs and new treatment facilities have a considerable environmental impact. We must consider ways of reducing demand, whether by encouraging water efficiency measures or considering metering in certain areas. Various levers can be pulled to reduce demand for water in a more environmentally-friendly way than churning up the countryside to produce new reservoirs. The water companies have not always paid attention to those alternatives: they need a bit of encouragement from the Government to do so.
      Groundwater levels have reached record lows in some areas—for example, in Chilgrove in west Sussex, A rdingly in Sussex, and Arlington in my constituency—where levels are down to 22 per cent.—but there has
      82
      been no concerted, high-profile campaign to persuade consumers to reduce their water usage. On 5 November, the Environment Agency received its first application from a water company for a drought permit, which affects the Cuckmere and Ouse rivers in my constituency. There is not much evidence that the water company in question had done much to restrain consumer demand. I mention examples from my constituency, but doubtless there are others all over the country.
      Water companies do not appear to have in mind alternatives to providing new infrastructure; they therefore need encouragement. It is possible to meet legitimate water demands through alternative means such as water efficiency and metering. We should adopt that approach, which is tried and tested in other countries. I hope that the Minister will view that with the seriousness with which the amendment was tabled.
      Mr. Wiggin: I shall restrict my remarks to amendment No. 16, which would insert a requirement to
      "have a duty to promote water conservation."
      All hon. Members should recognise that wording, because it was widely supported in Committee. My amendment would strengthen the wording of the Bill with regard to water conservation by further emphasising the need for each public authority to have a stricter duty to conserve water in order to improve water efficiency. Proper conservation of water must take place at every opportunity, but the Bill does not enforce that duty strongly enough. Public authorities should have a greater degree of responsibility to promote better management of water; my amendment would ensure that.
      I remind the Minister that Conservative Members voted for this amendment, but that he and his colleagues voted it down. The hon. Lady who tabled it is unavailable at the moment—I believe that she is unwell—but it is most important that this duty is included in the Bill. The existing wording is not nearly strong enough—indeed, it is rather weaselly in comparison with what it should be. I therefore urge the Government to support the amendment: I am sure that in their heart of hearts they would like to do so.
      Richard Younger-Ross: I was heartened to hear on the radio that the new leader of the Conservative party accepts that some of its past policies were wrong and that the poll tax was a mistake. I was less heartened when the right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard) went on to say that water privatisation was a great success because it had created vast investment in the industry. Although I accept that the increase in funding has created the clean sweep schemes and the environmental improvements that we all supported, it has been done at a specific cost, which consumers throughout the country have borne.
      As my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) said, the cost has not been equal across the board. Some people in specific areas have borne a disproportionate amount, especially those whom I represent in Teignbridge and those in my hon. Friends' constituencies in the south-west. Devon and Cornwall have 3 per cent. of the population of Britain, but 30 per cent. of the nation's beaches, and we continue to pay for

      83
      cleaning them up. It is argued that there is a benefit to the south-west and the Minister nodded earlier when tourism was mentioned. However, a benefit to tourism does not directly benefit pensioners, people on fixed incomes and those on low incomes. There is little to help them to pay their water bills, which have more than doubled since water privatisation and will increase even more.
      I ask the Minister to consider the wording of the new clause carefully. It would not force him to take action but empower him. It would make him examine the financial implications and empower him to ensure greater justice throughout the United Kingdom and to introduce water justice. The two words "water justice" are important to people in the south-west. I suspect that, as time goes by and other environmental improvements are introduced and other areas have to bear the cost, people in other parts of the country will also say, "There was a missed opportunity—we could have had an equalisation scheme. We want water justice and we want it now."
      Andrew George: I should like to speak to amendment No.132, which stands in my name. I especially want to draw the Minister's attention to the specific circumstances on the Isles of Scilly. Water supplies and services there were not privatised under the original legislation. The Isles of Scilly were specifically excluded from section 222 of the Water Industry Act 1991. The position is not only legally but locally complex, in that the council has taken responsibility for water services and drinking water to St. Mary's and Bryher, but the Duchy of Cornwall is largely responsible for the private water arrangements of the islands of St. Agnes and St. Martin's and Tresco Estates is responsible for the residents of Tresco island.
      Many constituents have expressed anxiety about drinking water standards. Although the council is doing its best to ensure that drinking water is properly monitored, it would be helpful if the Minister and the Department considered amendment No. 132, which would at least allow for the sort of improvements that may be required in due course. I do not suggest that we should introduce mainland circumstances and privatisation to the Isles of Scilly because that would not be appropriate but I hope that the Minister will at least reflect on the specific, special circumstances that pertain there and ensure that the islands and drinking water customers in particular are properly protected in the same way as those on the mainland.
      Mr. Morley: New clause 11 offers a new system of paying for environmental improvements and I understand the case about high costs in the south-west. like other companies, water companies must meet their costs, including those of environmental standards. Ultimately, all those costs come from their customers. Ofwat sets an upper limit on customer prices, but there is a strong and visible link between what the company spends and the customers who fund that through their bills. Water companies understand that, and it could be argued that it has made them far more sensitive to the views of their customers, whom they rightly perceive as
      84
      a key concern. Strong evidence in the current periodic review shows that companies' business plans pay more attention to customers' priorities. That is no bad thing.
      6.45 pm
      Although I can understand the reasoning behind new clause 11, I am worried that it would weaken the connection between the company and the customers by creating a national environment fund that drew its money from customers throughout the country. There is a question about whether companies would pay as much heed to their customers if customers throughout the country met the cost of their plans. There would be a lack of accountability and a weakening of the driver that encourages individual companies to keep their costs as low as possible.
      Nick Harvey: Holidaymakers throughout the country get the benefit of the capital work that is undertaken. Will the Minister at least consider the point that by opting for a water meter, wealthy owners of second homes in the south-west opt out of contributing to sewerage services and cleaning up the beaches because they have remarkably low bills that reflect their occasional visits? Will he consider the principle of insisting on a standing charge to ensure that they share the burden with regular residents?
      Mr. Morley: That is an interesting idea. Of course, it is Liberal Democrat policy to have compulsory water meters. The hon. Gentleman mentioned one of the potential downsides. The issue of second homes is serious and too wide for me to tackle in the debate, but I understand his point.
      There are other problems with the new clause. Depending on the details, the proposal might remove the incentive for companies to spend efficiently. If a company currently undertakes an agreed investment programme at a lower cost than planned, the saving benefits the company and can be passed on to its customers at the next price review. That would not be the case if there was a national scheme such as the new clause proposes. It provides that the company be reimbursed for the estimated cost. What happens if the company manages to undertake the programme for less cost? Who keeps the difference? If the national fund meets the cost, there is no motive for the company to invest efficiently. If it pays the estimated cost regardless of the out-turn cost, that asks customers in the rest of the country to fund a windfall saving to a company from which they will never benefit.
      I understand the issue of prices in different parts of the country and fairness, but we must consider fairness to other customers. The hon. Member for Teignbridge (Richard Younger-Ross) said that although benefits in clean beaches and good bathing water quality go to the south-west economy, they may not affect individual pensioners. That is a fair point. However, there are pensioners throughout the country, not only in the south-west, and we must consider their costs and the way in which the new clause would apply to them.
      Although I understand the argument, I am not convinced that there is a genuine distinction between the environmental measures that benefit a locality and the national benefit. We have mentioned that in the context

      85
      of tourism and the local economy. We must ensure that prices are as low as possible in all companies. That is an issue for the price review. When making decisions that affect water company obligations, we take account of customers' costs and bill levels in each company but I do not believe that it is necessarily to consumers' advantage to release companies from their responsibility to manage their investment programmes efficiently and justify them. I fear that the proposal might yield a short-term gain, but a cost disadvantage to consumers in the south-west in the long term.
      Andrew George: Does the Minister not accept that Ofwat assesses the efficiency of the companies, along with the appropriateness of their proposed schemes, and sets a K factor that takes into account all those measures? Surely the same principles could therefore be applied to this task?
      Mr. Morley: The difference there is that the K factor formula is applied across the whole country; it is a national formula. What is being proposed here is to even out what I accept are regional disparities by getting consumers in other parts of the country to make a contribution to—in this case—the south-west. I understand the points that have been made, but I would want to approach this issue by ensuring that efficiency drivers and investment programmes were in place to bring down costs for all consumers. That is the best way forward.
      Amendment No. 132 applies to the Isles of Scilly. The hon. Member for St. Ives (Andrew George) will be interested to learn that I know the area very well; in fact, I have visited all the main islands. I understand his point, and he is quite right about the provision for the opt-out. There was always a provision for the council to apply to the Secretary of State to make an order so that the water undertakers' functions under the Act could be performed either by the council or by the relevant water undertaker. I understand the split that the hon. Gentleman mentioned in that regard.
      An order was made in 1990 to give the council on the Isles of Scilly various functions. Its provisions, which include enabling powers to make drinking water regulations, place certain emergency duties on water undertakers that could prove very costly for the council. I understand that the arrangements on the Isles of Scilly for monitoring drinking water quality might not be wholly consistent with arrangements on the mainland. I assure the hon. Gentleman, however, that we are already considering how best to use the powers under section 222 of the Water Industry Act 1990, and we shall consult the council about costs and other implications. We therefore accept the thrust of his argument. There are powers available to provide what he is seeking, and we are prepared to talk to the council about how we can address the issue. On that basis, I hope that he will not press his amendment to a vote.
      Amendment No. 131 seeks to give greater prominence to certain demand management options, and we recognise that that is important. We had this discussion in Committee. I would say to the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) that water companies are already obliged to produce 25-year plans, so in that respect I believe that the Bill already covers his proposal.
      86
      Amendment No. 16 deals with water conservation. We do not disagree with the general principle advanced by the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin), but the fact that the Bill does not mention a duty does not mean that a requirement that public authorities "shall" do something is not a statutory duty. The Bill contains a statutory duty in respect of water conservation. As with other matters that we have discussed, difficulties might arise if we are over-prescriptive in our wording. We have no problem with the hon. Gentleman's arguments about the promotion of water conservation, but there is a statutory requirement in the Bill that meets the thrust of his arguments. In that regard, too, I hope that he will not press his amendment to a vote.
      Norman Baker: I am grateful to the Minister for addressing the amendments and new clauses tabled by the Liberal Democrats. I am a little disappointed by his response to new clause 11 in particular. I understand his point about not weakening the connection between a water company and its consumers. That is exactly right, but the fact that Ofwat has control over water companies in a way that does not normally apply to private companies undermines his argument. The connection is still there in terms of a company having to justify its investment and forward planning.
      The Minister showed, by picking at the new clause, why he thought it was inappropriate. He did not, however, recognise the thrust of our argument or come up with an alternative that would address the legitimate concerns of the south-west and other areas in which there is disproportionate expenditure on environmental matters because of the geography of the area—the coastline, in the case of the south-west. I said earlier that the south-west has 30 per cent. of the English and Welsh coastline, but only 3 per cent. of the population. That does not change, and there must be a way of recognising the disproportionate impact of that fact on consumers in the region.
      The Minister recognised that some investment schemes had, at least in part, a national benefit. If there is a national benefit, there should be a national way of paying for it, rather than simply relating it to the local consumer. The Minister has been his usual charming self, and as emollient as ever, but he has not quite convinced me on new clause 11. I therefore wish to press it to a vote.
      Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
      The House divided: Ayes 122, Noes 247.

      Division No. 356]

      [6:55 pm

      AYES

      Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

      Brady, Graham

      Allan, Richard

      Breed, Colin

      Ancram, rh Michael

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      Arbuthnot, rh James

      Burnett, John

      Bacon, Richard

      Burstow, Paul

      Baker, Norman

      Butterfill, John

      Barker, Gregory

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Baron, John (Billericay)

      Calton, Mrs Patsy

      Barrett, John

      Cameron, David

      Beith, rh A. J.

      Cash, William

      Bellingham, Henry

      Collins, Tim

      Bercow, John

      Conway, Derek

      Beresford, Sir Paul

      Cotter, Brian

      Blunt, Crispin

      Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

      Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

      87

      Djanogly, Jonathan

      Page, Richard

      Doughty, Sue

      Portillo, rh Michael

      Fabricant, Michael

      Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

      Flook, Adrian

      Forth, rh Eric

      Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      Pugh, Dr. John

      Francois, Mark

      Randall, John

      George, Andrew (St. Ives)

      Redwood, rh John

      Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

      Rendel, David

      Goodman, Paul

      Robathan, Andrew

      Grayling, Chris

      Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)

      Greenway, John

      Grieve, Dominic

      Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

      Hague, rh William

      Roe' Mrs Marion

      Harvey, Nick

      Rosindell, Andrew

      Hayes, John (S Holland)

      Ruffley, David

      Heald Oliver

      Sanders, Adrian

      Heath, David

      Saveed, Jonathan

      Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

      Selous, Andrew

      Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

      Shepherd, Richard

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

      Simmonds, Mark

      Jack, rh Michael

      Smith, Sir Robert W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine

      Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

      Jenkin, Bernard

      Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

      Johnson, Boris (Henley)

      Soames, Nicholas

      Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)

      Spelmaa Mrs Carohne

      Spring, Richard

      Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

      Swire, Hugo (E Devon)

      Laing, Mrs Eleanor

      Taylor, Ian (Esher)

      Lamb, Norman

      Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

      Lansley, Andrew

      Taylor, Sir Teddy

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Leigh, Edward

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Leigh, Edward

      Turner Andrew (Isle of Wight)

      Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)

      Tyler Paul (N Cornwall)

      Lidington, David

      Waterson, Nigel

      Lilley, rh Peter

      Watkinson, Angela

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Webb Steve (Northavon)

      Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

      Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

      Mackay, rh Andrew

      Wiggin, Bill

      Maclean, rh David

      Willetts, David

      Maples, John

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Willis, Phil

      Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

      Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

      May, Mrs Theresa

      Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

      Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

      Young, rh Sir George

      Younger-Ross, Richard

      Murrison, Dr. Andrew

      Norman, Archie

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Oaten, Mark (Winchester)

      Bob Russell and

      Osborne, George (Tatton)

      Mr. Alan Reid

      NOES

      Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Ainger, Nick

      Brennan, Kevin

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

      Allen, Graham

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Browne, Desmond

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Bryant, Chris

      Atkins, Charlotte

      Burden, Richard

      Bailey, Adrian

      Burnham, Andy

      Baird, Vera

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Banks, Tony

      Caborn, rh Richard

      Barnes, Harry

      Cairns, David

      Barron, rh Kevin

      Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

      Beard, Nigel

      Challen, Colin

      Beckett, rh Margaret

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      Bell, Stuart

      Chaytor, David

      Bennett, Andrew

      Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

      Betts, Clive

      Blackman, Liz

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

      Boateng, rh Paul

      Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

      Clelland, David

      88

      Coaker, Vernon

      Kaufman, rh Gerald

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Keen, Alan (Feltham)

      Coleman, Iain

      Kemp, Fraser

      Colman, Tony

      Kidney, David

      Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

      Kilfoyle, Peter

      Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)

      King, Andy (Rugby)

      Cooper, Yvette

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

      Cousins, Jim

      Cox, Tom (Tooting)

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Crausby, David

      Kumar, Dr. Ashok

      Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

      Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

      Cummings, John

      Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

      Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Leslie, Christopher

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

      Darling, rh Alistair

      Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

      David, Wayne

      Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

      Davidson, Ian

      Luke, lain (Dundee E)

      Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

      Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Dhanda, Parmjit

      McCafferty, Chris

      Dobson, rh Frank

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      MacDonald, Calum

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      McDonnell, John

      Drew, David (Stroud)

      MacDougall, John

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      McGuire, Mrs Anne

      Edwards, Huw

      McKechin, Ann

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Etherington, Bill

      McNulty, Tony

      Farrelly, Paul

      MacShane, Denis

      Fisher, Mark

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      Fitzpatrick, Jim

      McWalter, Tony

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Flint, Caroline

      Mandelson, rh Peter

      Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

      Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Gerrard, Neil

      Marshall-Andrews, Robert

      Gibson, Dr Ian

      Meacher, rh Michael

      Gilroy, Linda

      Merron, Gillian

      Godsiff, Roger

      Michael, rh Alun

      Goggins, Paul

      Milburn, rh Alan

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      Miliband, David

      Grogan, John

      Miller, Andrew

      Hain, rh Peter

      Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      Moffatt, Laura

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      Mole, Chris

      Healey, John

      Moonie, Dr. Lewis

      Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

      Morley, Elliot

      Hendrick, Mark

      Morris, rh Estelle

      Hesford, Stephen

      Mullin, Chris

      Hodge, Margaret

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

      Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

      O'Neill, Martin

      Howells, Dr. Kim

      Organ, Diana

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Hutton, rh John

      Picking, Anne

      Iddon, Dr. Brian

      Pickthall, Colin

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      Pollard, Kerry

      Jamieson, David

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Jenkins, Brian

      Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

      Pound, Stephen

      Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

      Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      Jones, Kevan (N Durham)

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      Purchase, Ken

      Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

      Purnell, James

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

      Rammell, Bill

      89

      Reed, Andy (Loughborough)

      Sutcliffe, Gerry

      Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

      Tami, Mark (Alyn)

      Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

      Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      Tipping, Paddy

      Ruane, Chris

      Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

      Trickett, Jon

      Truswell, Paul

      Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Sawford, Phil

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Twigg, Derek (Halton)

      Sheerman, Barry

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Sheridan, Jim

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)

      Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

      Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

      Watts, David

      Singh, Marsha

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Skinner, Dennis

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)

      Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)

      Winnick, David

      Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

      Wood, Mike (Batley)

      Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

      Woolas, Phil

      Soley, Clive

      Worthington, Tony

      Squire, Rachel

      Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      Steinberg, Gerry

      Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

      Stevenson, George

      Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Wyatt, Derek

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Stringer, Graham

      Margaret Moran and

      Stuart, Ms Gisela

      Mr. John Heppell

      Question accordingly negatived.
      It being after seven o'clock MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour, pursuant to Order [5 November].

    Clause 57

      THE CHIEF INSPECTOR OF DRINKING WATER AND THE DRINKING WATER INSPECTORATE
      Amendment made: No. 90, in page 74, line 33, at end insert—
      '( ) Any such proceedings by the Assembly may be instituted and carried on in the name of the Chief Inspector of Drinking Water for Wales, if there is one (or, if subsection (IB)(b) above applies, in the name of the Chief Inspector of Drinking Water).'.—[Mr. Morley.]

    Clause 62
      WATER RESOURCES MANAGEMENT PLANS
      Amendment made: No. 94, in page 83, line 23, leave out 'and in accordance with'.—[Mr. Morley.]
    Clause 83

      WATER CONSERVATION BY PUBLIC AUTHORITIES
      Amendments made: No. 95, in page 100, line 40, at end insert 'or to be supplied'.
      No. 96, in page 101, line 13, after 'is', insert
      'or is deemed to be'.—[Mr. Morley.]

    Clause 92

      SELF-LAY AND ADOPTION OF WATER MAINS AND SERVICE PIPES
      Amendments made: No. 97, in page 116, line 24, leave out 'subsections (4) and (5)' and insert 'subsection (4)'.
      No. 98, in page 116, line 34, leave out from 'of to `whether' in line 35.
      No. 99, in page 116, line 38, at end insert—
      'and in subsection (4) of that section, after "subsection (1)" there is inserted "or (1A)".'.—[Morley.]

    Clause 96
      ADOPTION OF LATERAL DRAINS
      Amendment made: No. 100, in page 123, line 15, leave out 'sewerage' and insert 'sewage'.—[Mr. Morley.]
    Clause 98
      COMMUNICATION WITH PUBLIC SEWERS
      Amendment made: No. 101, in page 126, line 19, leave out ',114'.—[Mr. Morley.]
    New Clause 1

      PROHIBITION OF ARTIFICIAL FLUORIDATION OF WATER SUPPLIES
      '(1) The WIA is amended as follows.
      For section 87 (fluoridation of water supplies at request of health authorities) there is substituted—
      "87 Prohibition of artificial fluoridation of water supplies
      Water undertakers shall be prohibited from artificially increasing the fluoride content of the water supplied by them."
      (3) Section 88 (power to vary permitted fluoridation agents) shall cease to have effect.
      (4) Section 89 (publicity and consultation) shall cease to have effect.
      (5) In section 90 (indemnities in respect of fluoridation), at the end there is added—
      "(2) But no indemnity under this section shall apply in respect of any liability, costs, expenses or expenditure incurred in relation to artificial increases in the fluoride content of water after the coming into force of section [prohibition of artificial fluoridation of water supplies](2) of the Water Act 2003."
      (6) Section 91 (pre1985 fluoridation schemes) shall cease to have effect.
      (7) Schedule 7 (pre 1985 fluoridation schemes) shall cease to have effect.'.—[Mr. Simon Thomas.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Mr. Simon Thomas: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
      Amendment No. 1, in page 75, line 7, leave out clause 58.
      Amendment No. 28, in clause 58, page 75, line 20, at end insert—
      '(2A) With regard to Wales, neither shall a water undertaker be authorised by subsection (1) above unless and until a referendum on increasing levels of fluoridation has been held in accordance

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      with the provisions of Part 7 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 seeking approval of the arrangements from the population residing in the area proposed to be affected.'.
      Amendment No. 8, in page 75, line 23, leave out from 'a' to end of line 25 and insert 'local authority'.
      Amendment No. 34, in page 76, line 2, at end insert 'or the water undertaker'.
      Amendment No. 35, in page 76, line 16, after 'authority', insert 'or a water undertaker'.
      Amendment No. 36, in page 76, line 23, leave out from '(9)' to end of line and insert'—

      (a) a combined reference may be made by the relevant authorities; or

      (b) a reference may be made by the water undertaker.'.

      Amendment No. 37, in page 76, line 42, after 'authority', insert 'or the water undertaker'.
      Amendment No. 38, in page 77, line 26, after 'authority', insert 'or the water undertaker'.
      Amendment No. 39, in page 77, line 30, after 'authority', insert 'or the water undertaker'.
      Amendment No. 40, in page 77, line 41, leave out from 'Assembly' to end of line 47 and insert—
      'or the water undertaker may refer the matter for determination by such person as the Assembly may appoint; and
      (b) the determination of that person shall be final.'.
      Amendment No. 41, in page 78, line 6, at end insert—
      '(4A) In making any determination under this section, the person making the determination—

      (a) shall secure that the arrangements, their variation or termination (as the case may be) are effected in an operable and efficient manner; or

      (b) if this cannot be achieved, shall refuse to require the entry into, variation of, or termination of, the arrangements.'.

      Amendment No. 42, in page 78, line 9, leave out from beginning to 'undertaker' in line 11 and insert—

      '(a) the person who made the determination shall give notice of his determination to the relevant authority or authorities and the water undertaker in question; and

      (b) except when there has been a refusal under subsection (4A)(b) above, such relevant authority or authorities and the water'.

      Amendment No. 45, in page 78, line 35, leave out 'or'.
      Amendment No. 46, in page 78, line 40, at end insert—
      'or
      for accommodating any other operational circumstance which necessitates variation of the source of the water being supplied to the area the water supply to which is required to be fluoridated.'.
      Amendment No. 6, in page 79, line 44, after 'consult', insert 'all households'.
      Amendment No. 23, in page 80, line 34, at end insert—
      '(5A) After section 89 there is inserted—
      "89A Assessment and analysis of effects on human health of fluoridated water
      (1) Following an increase of the fluoride content of water as a result of arrangements entered into under section 87, a relevant authority shall—

      (a) undertake an ongoing assessment of the correlation between fluoride consumption and changes in the dental health of the affected population;

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      (b) undertake an ongoing assessment of the correlation between fluoride consumption and the incidence of any known or suspected adverse effects of fluoride consumption in the affected population;

      (c) place all data obtained for the purposes of paragraphs (a) and (b) above in the public domain; and

      (d) periodically publish an analysis of the data obtained for the purposes of paragraphs (a) and (b) above.

      (2) The Secretary of State shall by regulations make provisions about the requirements which must be satisfied by relevant authorities for the purposes of subsection (1) above.".'.
      Amendment No. 47, in page 80, line 34, at end insert—
      '(5A) After section 89 there is inserted—
      "89A Fluoridation arrangements: technical guidance
      (1) Without prejudice to Chapter 3 of this Part and the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974, the Secretary of State and the Assembly shall jointly prepare and issue a code of practice containing guidance on the technical standards that must be met by water undertakers in relation to the fluoridation of water supplies.
      (2) Such a code of practice shall—

      (a) include such provisions, and

      (b) be prepared and made in such manner,

      as shall be prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State.".'.
      Amendment No. 48, in page 80, line 37, leave out from 'State' to end of line 48 and insert—
      'shall indemnify every water undertaker which enters into arrangements under section 87(1) above against all liabilities that any such undertaker may incur in complying with such arrangements, other than liabilities arising from the undertaker's own fault or negligence.
      (2) The Secretary of State shall indemnify every licensed water supplier against all liabilities that any such supplier may incur—

      (a) in supplying water to which fluoride has been added by a water undertaker by virtue of any such arrangements; and

      (b) (if the licensee is introducing water into the water undertaker's supply system) in complying with any obligation imposed on it by the undertaker in consequence of the arrangements,

      other than liabilities arising from the licensee's own fault or negligence.
      (2A) Subject to the preceding provisions of this section, each indemnity shall be on such terms as (with the consent of the Treasury) may be agreed between the Secretary of State and (as the case may be) the undertaker or the licensee.'.
      Amendment No. 7, in page 80, line 37, leave out from 'State' to end of line 40 and insert—
      'shall indemnify every water undertaker which enters into arrangements under section 87(1) above against all liabilities that any such undertaker may incur in complying with such arrangements, other than liabilities arising from the undertaker's own fault or negligence.
      (1A) Subject to subsection (1) above, each indemnity shall be on such terms as (with the consent of the Treasury) may be agreed between the Secretary of State and the undertaker.'.
      Government amendment No. 91.
      Amendment No. 49, in page 81, line 13, after 'authority', insert 'or the water undertaker'.
      Amendment No. 50, in page 81, line 23, leave out from first 'the' to 'to' in line 24 and insert—
      'person who has made the determination shall give notice of his determination to the relevant authority and'.
      Government amendments Nos. 92 and 93.
      Government amendment No. 102.
      Government amendment No. 122.
      Amendment No. 2, in schedule 9, page 227, line 10, at end insert—
      'Sections 88 and 89.Section 91.'.
      Government amendment No. 125.
      Government amendment No. 114.
      Mr. Thomas: To date, the Bill has been disagreed with in detail, but not in principle. Now, we come to the part of the Bill with which there is disagreement in principle—a disagreement that crosses the House and runs throughout the parties. The amendments deal directly with whether we should fluoridate our water supplies, whether we should continue the fluoridation of water supplies that are already fluoridated and, if we are to fluoridate further water supplies, how we should consult local populations. New clause 1 and amendment No. 1, which stand in my name, and amendment No. 8, which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Llanllienni—or Leominster (Mr. Wiggin), although in view of his appointment, we should refer to his constituency by its Welsh name—go to the heart of the debate on fluoridation.
      In the next hour and a half or so, I hope to hear the views of hon. Members on both sides of the House on how the House wants to come to a view—whether it wants to make a firm ruling on the principle of fluoridation, or whether it wants to make a more practical ruling on whether to extend fluoridation by means of the Bill. Given that this is, for the most part, a free vote—hon. Members on both sides have already expressed different ideas on how we should proceed—I hope that the House will be able, by means of the necessary votes, to make a firm declaration on fluoridation, and I hope that that declaration will be no: we do not have the evidence, the public support or the confidence at this stage, in this Bill, to pass such an important public health measure.
      Stephen Hesford: The hon. Gentleman is making an interesting, if very backward-looking, point. Does he seek to examine the principle of current law, as I understand it, and to remove it? What has been wrong with that for the past 15 or 16 years?
      Mr. Thomas: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman wants to hear precisely that argument, and I promise him that he will hear it from me, if he gives me a little time. To pick up one of his points, two views are reflected and two ways forward are offered. It is for the House to decide what it wants to do. A new clause and an amendment stand in my name—I have given the House a choice.
      Let us examine the practical grounds for fluoridation first. I shall discuss the civil liberties aspects and whether we should compulsorily medicate the population later. I have no doubt that putting the measure into the Bill has been justified on public health grounds. That
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      justification is based on the York review, a Government-commissioned review of all the science, the studies, and the peer-reviewed investigations to date on the effect of fluoridation on the population. That review found several important facts, which I want to put on the record.
      7.15 pm
      The review found that fluoridation appeared to reduce caries by 14 to 15 per cent.—that is, 0.4 per cent. of a tooth—but in the same context, it found that the science was poor and not without bias. The review also found that 48 per cent. of people living in fluoridated areas have dental fluorosis—a brown mottling of the teeth, which is medically accepted as a sign of fluoride overdose. We must not have too much fluoride in the water, and the Bill, by setting a limit on the amount of fluoride that may be put in the water, implicitly accepts that too much fluoride is possible, although it purports that there is an effective level.
      Andy Burnham: The hon. Gentleman says that fluorosis affects 48 per cent. of the population and results in brown mottling. Is he not aware that the most common appearance of fluorosis is a pearly appearance of the teeth, not brown mottling?
      Mr. Thomas: I do not know about the hon. Gentleman's pearly gnashers, but as he knows, the 48 per cent. examined in the York review identified that as the effect on their teeth. It is the York review that says that, not me, and it is for individuals to judge for themselves. Fluorosis is fluorosis: it is evidence of too much fluoride in the body, and that is the end of it.
      Mr. Kevin Hughes: Did not the York review find that there was a 15 per cent. increase in fluorosis? If there is a 14 or 15 per cent. improvement in the quality of teeth and a 15 per cent. decrease in the quality of teeth, especially children's teeth, because of fluorosis, does not the one cancel out the other? Is not the pro-fluoridation proposal an absolute nonsense?
      Mr. Thomas: I tend to agree with the hon. Gentleman, except to say that I do not think that one cancels out the other. However, the two pieces of information are evidence that we should use when taking decisions as Members of Parliament. We should not simply swallow one line or another, but try to work out what we should do.
      It is clear that the effects of fluorosis include not only the chalky or pearly appearance to which the hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) referred, but brown staining and pitting of teeth. Those are fairly severe effects. Are we proposing to put something in the water that will have that effect on 48 per cent. of the population? That serious question must be answered.
      Mr. Andrew Robathan: Did the hon. Gentleman receive, as I did a couple of days ago, a document from the British Dental Association and the British Medical Association in favour of introducing fluoride into water? It stated that in some areas that are

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      fluoridated the incidence of caries in children was twice as bad as in areas that are not. What conclusion does he draw from that?
      Mr. Thomas: I think that the hon. Gentleman is referring to the document that I have in my hand, which I did indeed receive recently. It shows that although fluoridated areas tend to have better dental health—I should say better health in terms of caries, not dental health, because there is more to dental health than simply caries; gum disease and cancer and mouth cancer have to be considered as well—there are fluoridated areas that have an above-average incidence of decayed, filled or missing teeth among five-year-olds. The science is unproven.
      To return to the York review, following its publication, four eminent members of the NHS centre for reviews and dissemination at York university—Professor Jos Kleijnen, Professor Trevor Sheldon, Sir lain Chalmers and Professor George Davey-Smith—made the following statement in a letter to the then Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Salford (Ms Blears):
      "As far as we are aware, no other review"—
      they refer to the York review—
      "of this topic is of comparable scientific standard, and we are concerned about some continuing misinterpretations of the evidence which could have implications for public policy."
      I think that their use of the word "misinterpretations" refers to the Government's attitude, but that is for them to say.
      Three points were made in the letter. The first is about the effectiveness of fluoridation in reducing caries—the very point raised in an intervention by the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan)—and the letter states:
      "We could discover no reliable, good-quality evidence in the fluoridation literature world-wide. What we found suggested that fluoridation was likely to have a beneficial effect, but in fact the range could be anywhere from a substantial benefit to a slight disbenefit to children's teeth."
      The second point was about the effectiveness of fluoridation in reducing inequalities in dental health across social groups—I understand from our debates in Committee that this will be a strong argument, which the Government will want to advance. The letter stated:
      "The evidence is weak, contradictory and unreliable".
      Are we to legislate on the basis of weak, contradictory and unreliable evidence?
      The third point was on the safety of fluoridation:
      "Apart from an increase in dental fluorosis (mottled teeth)"—
      it is the scientists, not me, who describe it as mottled teeth—
      "we found no clear pattern among the possible negative effects we examined, and we felt that not enough was known because the quality of the evidence is poor"—
      a point to which I shall return in a few moments.
      Mr. Adrian Bailey: Did the survey provide any assessment of the number of children who have died under general anaesthetic as a result of tooth decay? I can tell the House that, on the basis of
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      figures released for 1998, three children died. We would all agree that that is a serious and devastating health argument.
      Mr. Thomas: That is so irrelevant to this debate—[Interruption.] I shall tell the hon. Gentleman why. It is because modern medical practice is not to give general anaesthetic to children undergoing dental examination and treatment. The hon. Gentleman should know that. It is precisely because of those unfortunate deaths that it is not now general practice to give general anaesthetics to children in dental surgeries on the high street. The hon. Gentleman knows that and he should not adduce that evidence to support his position.
      Andy Burnham rose—
      Mr. Bailey rose—
      Mr. Thomas: I am not giving way for the moment, because I want to continue with my speech.
      As emphasised in the York review, only high-quality studies can fill the gaps in knowledge about those and other aspects of fluoridation. The question that we must ask is whether the Government have, since the York review, commissioned those high-quality studies. No, they have not. They have not even received the report that they said they would commission from the chief medical officer and the chief dental officer. That report is not yet published; not yet given to Members; not yet available to the public. The one thing that the Government said they would do in response to the York review has not been done. Yet we are being told to rush this Bill through as a great opportunity to improve the dental health of children and our population. It is not. It is too fast and based on too little evidence.
      Richard Burden: The hon. Gentleman is describing the York review and I understand that he wants all the facts out. Will he also confirm—he has not said it in his speech so far—that the York review found no evidence to substantiate allegations by anti-fluoride campaigners to the effect that there was a link between fluoridation and bone cancers, thyroid cancers, Down's syndrome and hip fractures?
      Mr. Thomas: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who makes a reasonable point. We have all received material from all sides of the argument—particularly perhaps the side to which he refers—about fluoridation. I agree that some of it comes across as rather hysterical, shall we say. However, I would not like the hon. Gentleman to believe that the points made on that side of the argument are completely without validation in the York review, which said that there could be possible negative outcomes such as IQ and congenital defects. They acknowledged that that could not be proved, but argued in favour of further high-quality research. That

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      was the York review's recommendation—we do not know enough about the effects, so may we have further high-quality research, please?
      The Government's response, which had unfortunate consequences, was to ask the Medical Research Council to advise on any further priorities for research into water fluoridation. The MRC concluded that research on a number of other possible negative health outcomes—including the IQ and congenital defects mentioned in the York review, to which the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield also referred—was of a "low priority".
      Thus the York review asked for higher-quality research as a priority, but in response to the Government the Medical Research Council declared that such research was a low priority. I cannot step into that argument. I acknowledge that I do not have the scientific ability to do so, but I do know one thing: if I am to support legislation, I want to be able to examine relevant studies and reviews. I want to be convinced that what we put into our water supply will not have adverse effects.
      As I said earlier, much of the publicity and propaganda on the issue verges on the hysterical. Although it remains the case that there is no evidence to prove the negative, as legislators we surely remain in difficulties. We need to be absolutely certain about what we are putting into our public water supply before we make any progress in that respect.
      I now want to move on to consider in more detail the Government's view of these matters.
      Gareth Thomas: I am inclined to support the hon. Gentleman's viewpoint. For the sake of clarity, however, is he saying that if the medical evidence were stronger, the human rights arguments would effectively be overruled?
      Mr. Thomas: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. From my perspective, I am opposed to compulsory medication. It may be good for me to have a little aspirin for my heart, particularly in debates such as this, but I do not want to be forced to take it. I want to be able to choose whether to take any medication. A little later in my speech, I shall deal with the question of whether fluoridation counts as water treatment or medication, which is at the heart of the hon. Gentleman's question. We must think clearly on these matters. If it is clear that we are trying to achieve a medical result, I would say that civil liberties is an absolute issue. If it is clear that it is a different matter of water treatment, then a rather different argument applies. I hope to persuade hon. Members this evening that what is at stake here is a medical matter and that we should not proceed down those lines.
      Stephen Hesford: Having examined the hon. Gentleman's amendment, the logic of his argument seems to be that we should not fluoridate water because there is no proof either that it works or that it is not harmful. However, I have seen no amendments on the amendment paper that require water companies to
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      withdraw fluoridation from the 5 million people who receive fluoridated water and have done so for about 40 years.
      Mr. Thomas: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that no amendment is designed to achieve that, but new clause 1 would do precisely what he says. I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman misleads the House in going down that road. New clause 1 withdraws fluoridation from those who receive it. I hope that those who believe in civil liberties will support it, as well as those who have a more practical or pragmatic view. It is for hon. Members to decide.
      Mr. Alan Williams: Is there not an alternative, which goes closer to meeting a point of principle: to refuse to allow clause 58 to stand part of the Bill?
      Mr. Thomas: That is amendment No. 1. I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that that at least keeps the status quo, but it will continue to allow fluoridation to be decided by water companies, which is the real problem. We all agree that water companies should not decide that sort of thing, and I want to argue that we should not decide it either.
      The Government have usefully copied to members of the Committee their own arguments based on a briefing from the chief dental officer of why we should fluoridate. I understand that we have a free vote tonight, but also that the Government are clearly behind fluoridation as a method of dealing with the problems of NHS dentistry, to which I shall return in a few moments. The review examined alternatives to water fluoridation. Let us accept for a moment that fluoride benefits teeth. I can accept that at a personal level because I use a fluoride toothpaste, but it is my own choice to use it. In a letter to Committee members, the Government said:
      "Dental decay can also be largely prevented on an individual basis by dietary means. However there is no evidence that it is possible to alter people's diet to this extent on a population basis and it is therefore not currently a practical public health option."
      That strikes me as a defeatist attitude from the Government. Just today, the Government addressed the issue of obesity in young children. At other times, they have talked about too much salt in our diet and, in an apparently constant stream of initiatives from No. 10, have stressed the need to change our diet. I do not disagree with that. Let us have exhortations from the Government about changing our dietary habits, how we look after our health, not smoking and not drinking too much. But let us not then use the same argument to impose compulsory fluoridation, because—it is claimed—people are too thick to learn how to look after their teeth. That is a ridiculous argument.
      The situation is even more ridiculous, because the letter continues:
      "It is also cheaper—water fluoridation costs around 50p per person per year; a year's supply of toothbrushes and toothpaste costs around£10. So there are important reasons to consider water fluoridation as the preferred method of preventing tooth decay."

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      the Government honestly suggesting that we should all drink fluoridated water and throw out our toothbrushes and toothpaste to save £9.50 a year? That would not improve oral health, gum disease or rates of mouth cancer. It would not help us to address the increasing problems of the NHS dental service, with one third of children in Wales not having an NHS dentist. Some 69 per cent. of the population in my county do not have an NHS dentist—
      Mr. Redwood rose—
      Mr. Thomas: Here is a man who was partly responsible for that.
      Mr. Redwood: I was going to say nice things about the hon. Gentleman, but not after that calumny. Does he agree that it is odd that the Government want to boss us all around to stop us having tooth decay, but they allow smoking? All their medical advice is that smoking causes awful health problems that then need to be remedied by the NHS, but they have not banned it. The Government are being illogical in allowing us to smoke, but making us have fluoride when we do not want it.
      7.30 pm
      Mr. Thomas: I agree that that is illogical, but I will not be tempted further down that path as it would be outside the scope of the new clause and amendments.
      The British Dental Association has written to all hon. Members to ask them to support fluoridation. It makes no bones about wanting fluoridation, and that is fine, but my children have a drink called Ribena ToothKind, which is approved by the British Dental Association. Is the BDA urging legislators to put fluoride in everyone's drinking water, but at the same time willing to take money from a commercial company to say that a sweet soft drink is good for your teeth?
      Mr. Morley: There is no sugar in it.
      Mr. Thomas: That is true. I do not know whether the Minister has children—
      Mr. Morley indicated assent.
      Mr. Thomas: He will know, then, that if one lets children have sweet drinks, they ask for more. When one is out and about, one does not always have access to nice tooth-kind drinks. The children want Coke, lemonade or Fanta. Let us be clear about the facts—the British Dental Association does not have clean hands on the issue. If it is prepared to back sweet drinks, it should not tell us what we should put in our clean, fresh water. We should bear such facts in mind when interest groups tell us how we should legislate.
      Mr. John Butterfill: The hon. Gentleman mentioned the cost of fluoridating the public water supply as opposed to the cost of toothbrushes and toothpaste. We are concentrating on the problems of a small minority of children in deprived areas who are not
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      getting the necessary dental care. Would it not be better and cheaper to concentrate directly on their needs, rather than do something that would affect the whole country?
      Mr. Thomas: The hon. Gentleman has put his finger on the heart of the argument. We have in many of our communities a recognised problem of severe tooth decay in young children. That is a feature of poverty, lack of education, culture, bad diet and lack of access to dental services. None of those factors is affected by fluoridation. There is no evidence that a young child in, say, Manchester or Aberystwyth who drinks fluoridated water but continues with those bad health habits will have significantly improved teeth. They might have an improvement of 0.4 per cent. in one tooth, but that is no reason to change our whole water supply. The hon. Gentleman is right—we need to target improvements in dental health directly on those who need it most.
      I know that many hon. Members wish to speak, so I shall conclude. Is fluoridation medication? When the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin) pressed the Under-Secretary on the issue in Committee, she said that she did not consider fluorosilicic acid—the substance used to fluoridate water—to be a medicine, and she mentioned the guide to medicinal and health care products. I take it that she was referring to the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency, which has published a guide to what should be considered a medicinal product. It states, on page 4, that medicines include
      "Any substance or combination of substances presented for treating or preventing disease in human beings or animals."
      According to that, fluoride is a medicine.
      Mr. Bill Etherington: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that fluoride is not a registered medicine. It is, however, a registered poison.
      Mr. Thomas: The hon. Gentleman is right. Under the Poisons Act 1972, it is registered as a part II poison, alongside arsenic and paraquat. I do not think that there are many useful benefits of arsenic.
      Mr. Gordon Prentice: Are those people who live in areas that have naturally fluoridated water being poisoned?
      Mr. Thomas: Those individuals who live in areas that are naturally high in radon are being poisoned. Many areas have natural features that have an impact on our bodies—such as fluoride and radon. The hon. Gentleman cannot wriggle out of that one. If it is a poison, we should not add it to our water supply.
      It is illegal to add fluoride to the water supply as a treatment. In other words, fluoride is not regulated as a water treatment agent. The Water Supply (Water Quality) Regulations 2000 list those substances that may be added to our water, and fluoride is not one of them. It is curious that fluoride is not regulated as a medicine, it has never been tested on the population as a medicine, it cannot be bought over the counter and it is even banned in Belgium as a treatment for teeth, yet we seek to achieve a medicinal effect by putting it in our water. I know that many hon. Members represent

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      the 5 million people in England who already have fluoride in their water and they will not be happy to hear that argument, but we have to look at the hard evidence. The York review and other evidence make it clear that insufficient evidence is available to decide to add fluoride to our water. There is insufficient evidence of the effects that the Minister will no doubt claim.
      There are better alternatives, such as improving access to NHS dentistry and increasing education on personal dental care—including cutting down on sugar in the diet—which could achieve similar effects to water fluoridation, but without as much controversy or the potential negative health effects, even if those stop at fluorosis. Fluorides are not the way forward for the NHS dental service. Fluorides are not the way forward to treat the population as a whole. I urge the House to reject mass medication and to support the important principle of individual choice in how we look after our own bodies and teeth, how we take medicines and how we interact with the rest of society. This is not a matter for this House.
      Mr. James Wray: May I ask, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for a Division on amendment No. 8? There is cross-party support for the amendment. Quite a number of people have added their names to it; I did not table it, but I have added my name.
      Stephen Hesford: Will my hon. Friend give way?
      Mr. Wray: Give me a chance to get started.
      I have watched this matter over the years. From 1983, the Water (Scotland) Act 1946 was taken up in the Court of Session, and one of the reasons was that the Government wanted to fluoridate water supplies in my country of Scotland—part of the United Kingdom. The people were against that, and the case ended up taking five years to be settled in the Court of Session. That was the reason for the Water (Fluoridation) Act 1985. The Government produced a Bill in 1983 because they found that it was ultra vires and outwith the remit of a water engineer to "treat" the people who drink water. All the additives that have been mentioned as being in the water are there to make it wholesome. It was important in the early 1980s to keep additions under strict control by local authorities, which are the democratic authorities accountable to the electorate. They consult the people and listen to their views. At that time, they certainly did listen. Lord Jauncey decided the case. Three or four items were put to him, including the medical, moral and legal aspects.
      Local authorities all over England and Scotland were not really interested in fluoridating public water supplies, but an organisation called the British Fluoridation Society has spent money to the tune of £185,000 to brainwash the whole of Britain to try to get fluoride into all the waters in all the local authority areas. The Government have been dishonest.
      Stephen Hesford: My hon. Friend talks about dishonesty. On representation in the House, is he aware that two early-day motions were tabled and that one, in favour of fluoridation, was signed by more than 150 Members? Of the two EDMs, one was an amendment
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      against anti-fluoridation moves and the other was anti-fluoridation in itself. Only 21 Members signed for the anti position.
      Mr. Wray: That does not really matter.
      Mr. Butterfill: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Wirral, West (Stephen Hesford) is misleading the House—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, with his experience, would not wish to use that expression and accuse another hon. Member of misleading the House.
      Mr. Butterfill: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman did not intend to mislead the House, but he certainly had that effect.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has great experience of chairing proceedings in the House, and he should know that he is trying to pursue on a point of order what is really a point of argument.
      Mr. Wray: Many early-day motions are tabled. Some get hundreds of signatures, but they never go anywhere. Neither will that one.
      The jewel in the crown was Birmingham, which has been fluoridated for 30 years—[HON. MEMBERS: "For 40 years."] That is even worse. The Government never reported back on the professor who went into five primary schools and found that 34 per cent. of the children had dental fluorosis—caused by chronic fluorine poisoning. That is where the disease comes from—a poisonous waste. No one from the medical profession ever discovered that fluoride was attracted to bones and teeth; they knew nothing about it. Cattle were found down in England with skeletal fluorosis, which came from people dumping fluoride, which was very expensive to dump. People wanted to find a cheap way of getting rid of that, so they sent an agent to have a look. It was him who discovered that it was attracted to bones and teeth. That is where chronic fluorine poisoning and skeletal fluorosis came from. I think that the company at the time may have been Fisons.
      7.45 pm
      Under the 1926 food and drugs legislation, it is a crime to add any kind of fluoride to foodstuffs. The Medicines Act 1968 clearly states what is a medicinal product. Why would a Government who believe in democracy want to transfer a non-medicinal product to a health authority and take away the democratic right of a local authority?
      Mr. Gerald Kaufman: I am interested in amendment No. 8, but I would be grateful if my hon. Friend could clarify one point. I understand entirely that he recommends that the requirement should come from a democratically elected local authority. What would be the basis on which such an authority would make such a request?
      Mr. Wray: The reason for wanting to take the decision away from local authorities is that local

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      authorities up and down the country refused to fluoridate. It was then put in the hand of water authorities, but they cannot do it because of the Water (Scotland) Act 1946, so the Government have to try to persuade the water authorities. Because of indemnification, the water authorities will not like that because they have heard public complaints about the fluoridation of public water supplies and dental fluorosis. They will not implement fluoridation. In fact, an attempt was made to force authorities in the north of England, and that case was lost because the judge said that the water authority had a responsibility to its shareholders and customers.
      Mr. David Marshall: In the event of fluoridated water being eventually proven harmful to the health of human beings, who does my hon. Friend think will be liable if the victims sue? Would it be the manufacturers of fluoride, the water companies, the strategic health authorities or even the Government?
      Mr. Wray: If any of my children get dental fluorosis or chronic fluorine poisoning, I will sue everybody until I get the right one—the Government, the fluoride company, whoever. One reason why fluoride is said not to be a medicinal product is that a product licence would be needed to procure the fluoride. That licence would state clearly what the product is—a fluorosilicate, under European Union directives, and something that is certainly not on the approved medicines list. I have heard Ministers speak about fluorspar and natural fluoride. Natural fluoride comes from fluorspar. It is insoluble. With fluorosilicates, as soon as they hit the water, they dissolve. With fluorspar, the actual fluoride comes from the fluorspar and is insoluble. There is a very big difference.
      I do not care who takes fluoride. Give it to your sons, give it to your daughters—in toothpaste or in tablets, as long as it is self-administered. Once we start to use water as a panacea, as mass medication for the whole population, half of whom do not even have teeth, we might as well put the fluoride into buckets.
      We have a socialist Government and they should never medicate people against their will. It is illegal in English law to medicate someone against their will. It is as though a doctor diagnosed all his patients and prescribed them fluoride without seeing them. We have never done that in this country. That is what bothers me—the fact that a Labour Government who believe in democracy want such demagoguery and want to fluoridate public water supplies.
      The Government know the moral aspects and the medical aspects; they certainly know the legal aspects. Why are fluorides forbidden and criminal under the Poisons Act 1972? Why are the human rights of the individual being taken away by a few Members of Parliament who are not even taking the time to read exactly what will be going into our water? Why do they not find out what fluoride is and where it comes from?
      Out in the commercial world somebody will be making big bucks. That is what this is all about. If the whole UK water supply is fluoridated, somebody will get their palm greased. They will be ready when the Government decide to put fluoride in the water.
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      There will be no way of really measuring one part per million. How will the Government know how many children are already taking fluoride tablets at school? How will they know how many people already brush their teeth with fluoridated toothpaste? If a baby ate a tube of toothpaste she would die. There is enough fluoride in a tube of toothpaste to kill a child.
      Mr. Etherington: Earlier my hon. Friend was asked about the democratic processes that might be used by local authorities to ascertain the wishes of the public. Does he share my view that whatever the system is I would have more confidence in it than if the matter were left to a strategic health authority?
      Mr. Wray: I certainly do.
      What worries me is that the Minister is misleading the House. The chairman of the York university review committee, Professor Trevor Sheldon, sent a letter to the press about the statements—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Did I hear the hon. Gentleman accuse the Minister of misleading the House? If I did, I hope that he will very quickly withdraw that statement.
      Mr. Wray: Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I withdraw it.
      Trevor Sheldon wrote an open letter that stated:
      "The review team was surprised that in spite of the large number of studies carried out over several decades there is a dearth of reliable evidence with which to inform policy. Until high quality studies are undertaken providing more definitive evidence, there will continue to be legitimate scientific controversy over the likely effects and costs of water fluoridation."
      Why does the Minister not promote the comments of the director of the Medical Research Council, Dr. Paul Harrison? He said:
      "But there is a lack of research on some important aspects, which is why we're highlighting the need for more research…Because of the wide use of toothpastes and other dental health care products containing fluoride, we need a better understanding of how much fluoride we're all absorbing."
      Everybody else is worried, so why does the Minister say that it is safe to take fluoride? All those bodies have looked at the evidence and considered the studies.
      In 1997, Wolverhampton fluoridated its water supply, so why did dental costs rise by 112 per cent? Should not those costs have been lower after fluoridation? We are not getting the right facts in this case.
      I hope that hon. Members will vote for the democratic right of local authorities to retain control under amendment No. 8 and that they will vote against the fluoridation of public water supplies. That is a criminal act and it is illegal under various Acts passed by the Government.
      Several hon. Members rose—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. May I appeal to the House? It is obvious that only a short time is left for this debate so I hope that in future contributions, including those from the Front Benches, Members will bear in mind the fact that there is a great deal of interest in taking part.
      Mr. Wiggin: I shall try to keep my comments as brief as possible, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I want to address a large number of amendments.
      Members on both sides of the House feel very strongly about amendment No. 8, which the hon. Member for Glasgow, Baillieston (Mr. Wray) has just discussed. We shall certainly press it to a vote and on the Opposition Benches it will be a free vote.
      Mr. Greg Knight: Some time ago when we held a debate on the composition of the other place there was a series of genuine free votes. To indicate that they were genuinely free votes, the Government Whips Office put in Tellers for both sides. Has my hon. Friend received any notification from the Treasury Bench that Government Whips will be telling on both sides when we vote on this group?
      Mr. Nick Ainger: indicated assent.
      Mr. Wiggin: I see that the Government Whip is nodding. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) for making that vital point; if we are to have a free vote, free it must be.
      Currently, the Bill gives strategic health authorities the role of consultation with local communities to determine whether fluoride should be added to their water supply. We want that to be undertaken by local authorities. The Minister has insisted that any decision to fluoridate water will be determined by "local" people after "local" consultation. Strategic health authorities are not local. The SHA for my constituency is in Coventry, which is a long way from Herefordshire so it is not local in any sense of the word.
      Strategic health authorities are neither democratically elected nor accountable. Their accountability comes only through the Secretary of State, which is not a direct local mechanism. They do not match up with the Government's insistence on local consultation and I should prefer an element of democratic decision making with elected and accountable local authorities having that power.
      Mr. Drew: I shall be voting with the hon. Gentleman on the amendment. Not only am I unhappy about the level at which the decision will be taken, but I have received two letters, one from the Greater Manchester SHA and one from my SHA, Avon, Gloucestershire and Wiltshire, urging me to support the provisions on the basis that we should have a fluoridated water supply. How can those authorities carry out open, honest and democratic consultations when they are telling us which way to vote?
      Mr. Wiggin: The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely important point. We want not only democratic accountability, but at least proper information to be provided to all people, so that they can decide how they would like their water supplies to be treated. Of course, that is difficult if the strategic health authority has already made that decision.
      8 pm
      Andy Burnham: The hon. Gentleman makes a point about the decision being in the hands of the wrong body. Why did the then Conservative Government leave the decision in the hands of the health authorities when they passed the Water (Fluoridation) Act 1985?
      Mr. Wiggin: I do not think that they left the decision in the hands of the health authorities. [HON. MEMBERS: "They did."] I thought that the decision was left in the hands of the water authorities. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I thought that that was what the Government were seeking to change. Anyway, like the hon. Gentleman, I was probably at school at the time, so I was not privy to the full debate.
      Andy Burnham rose—
      Mr. Wiggin: Hang on; let me answer the first question. The important point that the hon. Gentleman is trying to make is that the then Government probably acted—I am sure that they did—on the best scientific evidence at the time. One of the biggest criticisms of the Bill is that the York report has requested further research, but the Government have not carried it out. I can see that the hon. Gentleman is highly exercised, so I shall give way.
      Andy Burnham: The hon. Gentleman asks me to explain further. The original Conservative legislation said that the health authorities would undertake the consultation, but that the water companies may choose to fluoridate on the back of the health authorities' request. The word, "may" is the loophole in the 1985 Act that people are exploiting to open a debate on the question per se, but the hon. Member responsible for that legislation—the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke)—is wholly in favour of the change that other hon. Members and I are proposing tonight.
      Mr. Wiggin rose—
      Mr. Butterfill: May I just make it clear that the previous legislation left it free to health authorities to recommend fluoridation, but that it was up to the water authorities to decide whether to go ahead and, since most of them were worried about getting sued, they did not do so?
      Mr. Wiggin: I shall make some progress not only because it is important that hon. Members have the chance to make their own speeches, but because we have moved on about 20 years, and there seems little advantage in debating what happened 20 years ago.
      Mr. Kevin Hughes: Water authorities will not take the decision because they are not convinced that it is safe and they fear they will be sued if they do so. That is what they fail to say.
      Mr. Wiggin: I am grateful to hon. Members for all their interventions. One of the Bill's fundamental flaws is that it does not give us the decision on fluoridation, but the rights and wrongs of what has happened in the past are not for us to debate. I would prefer it if they were, but that is not the case, so I must make progress.

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      I would prefer to see democratic decision making, so it is right that such powers should be in the hands of local authorises, as elected and accountable bodies. Strategic health authorities have an overwhelming bias in favour of fluoridation. Such an issue needs neutrality—the point made by the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew)—with each local community given an equal amount of information from both sides of the debate, so they can make up their own minds.
      The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) asked in an earlier intervention why local authorities should take that decision. The answer is that it must be in their interests to ask their electorate and, when they get the answer, to act accordingly.
      Mr. Kaufman: My question was not why. I find it very attractive that local authorities should take the decision. What I am interested in having elucidated to me is by what process the local authority would make its decision.
      Mr. Wiggin: I shall come to my amendments slightly later on, but I would prefer a proper referendum to be conducted—every household should be consulted. We are talking about mass medication, whether we want to call it that or not, so we must have mass consultation to go with it. That is the least that we can do.
      Mr. Simon Thomas: The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) makes an important point, but it is also important to note that the Bill does not specify what the current consultation with the strategic health authorities—or, indeed, in Wales, with the National Assembly—should involve, so that criticism should be channelled at the Bill as well.
      Mr. Wiggin: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I shall come to that in speaking to my amendments.
      Richard Burden: The hon. Gentleman sees this as a health issue. Does he think that any other health issue should be decided by local authorities, rather than by part of the health service?
      Mr. Wiggin: The hon. Gentleman puts his finger on the real misunderstanding. He talks about a decision being made by a local authority or by a strategic health authority; I am talking about local people being able to take that decision. That is why I would prefer local authorities to make the decision. They start from an unbiased position, so they can undertake proper consultation without pursuing their own agenda, and they are elected and accountable. None of those things applies to strategic health authorities, so we need to move on from whether they should make the decision or whether local people should make it. That is why the hon. Gentleman and I will not agree, but he can now understand why his comments are not the same as mine and are not relevant. It does not matter what other health decisions are made by local authorities because they are not covered by the Bill.
      Mr. Bailey: The hon. Gentleman has not said what would happen if there were different types of local
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      authority in an area—a county council, a district council or even a district council and a parish council—and they were at odds with each other.
      Mr. Wiggin: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We have referred to local authorities, but I imagine that the county council would be involved in my area, for example. I have a unitary authority in Herefordshire, but a county council and a district council in Worcestershire, both of which are in my constituency. There are difficulties, but why would strategic health authorities do a better job? They are not accountable and not elected. [Interruption.] I will not ask the hon. Gentleman to respond, but I am sure that he will comment on that in his speech. In answer to his question, my feeling is that, so long as an authority conducts proper consultation, it will be able to make the decision. As the Minister said in Committee, the majority of people must be in favour of fluoridation before it takes place.
      Mr. Alan Williams: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
      Mr. Wiggin: I will. I have been very generous; I do not see why I should stop now.
      Mr. Williams: I appreciate that fact, and I am grateful to him for giving way. Does he not understand that he is giving the argument away? Either we believe in compulsory medication or we do not. If we do not believe in compulsory medication, it does not matter whether it is done by the Government, by a quango or by a local authority, it is still wrong. I believe that compulsory medication is wrong in all circumstances.
      Mr. Wiggin: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention, but it is wrong to say that I am giving the game away or behaving in any way like that. That is not what I seeking to do with my amendments. I want to ensure that the Bill, which only deals with whether fluoridation may or may not take place, guarantees accountability—that is the bit that is missing.
      Mr. Kaufman: Will the hon. Gentleman clarify whether, regardless of the fate of any other amendment, he will nevertheless press amendment No. 6 to a Division, because that amendment refers to consulting all households?
      Mr. Wiggin: I would love to press amendment No. 6 to a Division. I cannot confirm whether I will do so because we will be under a lot of time pressure; otherwise, the Bill will not receive a Third Reading. If we are successful with amendment No. 8, however, perhaps it will be possible to press amendment No. 6 to a Division. That is an important point, and I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for making it.
      Amendments Nos. 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 42 and 46 all relate to the same purpose: including the water undertaker in the decision-making process. The Bill only takes account of the health authority in such decisions, and those amendments would enable water companies, as well as health authorities, to initiate variations in arrangements to accommodate changes in

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      circumstances, including operational emergencies. Under the Bill, only health authorities can request changed arrangements, but it is only fair that water undertakers should also apply the same provisions. There should be statutory provision for water undertakers to make arrangements for changes in their obligations to take on operational contingencies. Those amendments would ensure that the water company, as well as the health authority, could request such a provision.
      Amendment No. 37 would ensure that the decision on the level of fluoridation concentration could be taken by the water company, as well as the health authority. It is only fair that water companies have an input into what concentration of fluoride should be added.
      Amendments Nos. 36, 38, 39, 40 and 42 would place the water companies on the same footing as health authorities in a disagreement over a requested variation. Water undertakers should be able to appeal to the Secretary of State and relevant authorities when the terms of a requested variation cannot be agreed. Again, that relates to the point made in amendments Nos. 34. 35 and 37 that express statutory provision should be made whereby water companies can request variation of their obligations to accommodate operational contingencies.
      Amendment No. 41 would require that in the references of disputes under section 87B, the Secretary of State or the Welsh Assembly should be empowered to ensure that new or revised fluoridation schemes are operable and efficient. If a scheme failed to be so, entry into the arrangements would be refused.
      Amendment No. 46 would add to the circumstances under which suspension of, or variation of, fluoridation takes place, and suggests the addition of necessary changes to source of supply. The boundaries of operational supply zones often have to be varied to accommodate seasonal changes in weather patterns and other operational exigencies.
      Amendment No. 6 is very important. It seeks to ensure that every person affected by the proposed fluoridation scheme must be consulted, or at least invited to participate in the consultations. I had to concede that invitation because the Government do not intend to hold the proper referendum that I would have preferred. Consultation literature must be sent to every household in the affected area. In Committee, the Under-Secretary said:
      "That is the sort of thing that we have in mind."
      I welcome that comment. Furthermore, she added that
      "we believe that some sort of door-to-door consultation must be part of the overall consultation."—[Official Report, Standing Committee D, 23 October 2003; c. 461.]
      Is she therefore proposing that the Government will ensure that every door of every household in every area will be knocked on to discuss fluoridation? I find that highly unlikely. Equally, we must ensure that all households in an affected area receive neutral, unbiased information from both sides of the debate, and that the information is understood by all. Will that happen? I should like to see a referendum on a topic as controversial as fluoridation. Given its health effects—to say nothing of the civil liberties factor, to which
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      reference was made—it is all the more vital to ensure that everyone has their say after a fully informed debate. We have still not had an answer as to what democratic result the Government consider right in order to fluoridate water supplies. Fluoridation will affect individual freedom, because people have to drink water. Their choice and right to drink non-fluoridated water—indeed, fluoride can even be absorbed through the skin when in the bath—will effectively be eliminated, unless the Government are going to give every opponent to fluoridation the money to buy bottled natural drinking water if they live in a fluoridated area, which, of course they are not. It is important that all households be consulted on whether they want fluoridation to take place, and if the Government are serious about their promise to let local communities decide, my amendment should be included.
      On amendment No. 47, Water UK believes that, in relation to fluoridation of water supplies, there should be statutory provision by the Secretary of State for specifying construction and operational standards. This code of practice, prepared by the Secretary of State for water undertakers, is in the interests of safety and of the avoidance of arguments over the standards that have to be met and paid for. The amendment would provide clear assurances in that regard.
      Amendment No. 48 is very similar to amendment No. 7, except that it adds a subsection (2) to accommodate licensed water suppliers in indemnity arrangements against all liabilities incurred in fluoridation. Amendment No. 7 would ensure that the Secretary of State grants indemnities to water suppliers that agree to fluoridate a water supply under clause 58; we should surely welcome that. In Committee, the Minister stressed that a water supplier that agrees to fluoridate should not incur any additional liabilities, compared with a water supplier with no fluoridation scheme. She is right, but my amendment seeks to be sure of exactly what liabilities are covered in the indemnity, what is excluded, and the costs. It should be expressly provided that the Secretary of State must indemnify water companies against all liabilities that they may incur as a consequence of fluoridation, other than those arising from their own fault or negligence. We want proper protection for consumers in all areas.
      Amendment No. 48 adds to amendment No. 7 by attaching subsection (2) in order to accommodate licensed water suppliers. Of course, the question arises of why indemnities are needed in the first place. Is it because there is a risk associated with mass water fluoridation? And it is because of that risk that water companies must be protected against future action? However, just because we recognise that the Government may know of the dangers of fluoridation—hence the indemnity—does that mean that we can skip over the harmfulness of fluoride? As has been said, fluoride is a class 2 poison. We should not legislate without the necessary high-quality research. The high-quality research that the York review itself requested has not been undertaken; indeed, in Committee the Minister told us that it was marked as "a low priority". We need to assess the proportionality of the risk of tooth decay in children, and the risk posed by fluoride for people of all ages. The scientific research is

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      contradictory, and the satisfactory evidence is non-existent. The safeguards are clearly not in place. The matter is in no way resolved, so the clause in question should not be included. Giving an indemnity to water companies does not detract from the doubt and uncertainty that surrounds the issue; and it certainly is not a reason why we should accept fluoridation.
      I want to know how much the proposed indemnities will cost, what legal advice is being taken, and whether the Bill fulfils its human rights obligations.
      Mr. David Kidney: On the York review's recommendation for further research and the Medical Research Council's 15 recommendations for such research, the hon. Gentleman points out that we have yet to receive the results. But even if this House were willing to legislate without knowing the results, would he think it odd that we consulted the public without their knowing the results?
      8.15 pm
      Mr. Wiggin: As I said earlier, it is important that the public be properly informed and consulted.
      Mr. Butterfill: Does my hon. Friend accept that although the Government may be indemnifying the water companies, they will not get an indemnity themselves? There is no doubt that they will face legal action if they proceed with the Bill.
      Mr. Wiggin: I share my hon. Friend's concern. I, too, have heard that the provision will be tested in law and I am very worried about that, because ultimately the consumers will pick up the bill, whether they wish to or not. For that reason, this part of the measure makes me extremely nervous.
      Have the Government received the advice of the chief medical officer and the chief dental officer, commissioned in September 2002? We were promised in Committee that a great deal more information would be available on Report. We all look forward to knowing what that information is. If these amendments were accepted, they would provide assurances for all water undertakers that liabilities are covered by the indemnity arrangements, which would be most helpful.
      Amendments Nos. 49 and 50 would enable water companies, as well as health authorities, to initiate changes to pre-1985 fluoridation arrangements, which would be fairer to water companies. Water undertakers should be included in statutory provisions that will affect their industry.
      I look forward to hearing the rest of this debate. This is an extremely important issue, and I regret very much the sneaking of this clause into the Bill. It is clear that this issue needed a great deal more time in which to debate it.
      Andy Burnham: In fact, the clause has not been snuck into the Bill; 150 Members of this House signed an early-day motion, which I tabled, on this issue. That shows the strength of feeling in this place—on both sides of the House—which the Government recognised by introducing the clause.
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      Today, we have an opportunity to correct a loophole in the law that has thwarted the will of the House for 20 years, and left health inequalities between rich and poor communities that are wider than they need be or should be. Tooth decay is almost entirely preventable, and water fluoridation has been shown to be a safe and effective way of preventing it. Yet we rarely get the chance—
      Mr. Kevin Hughes: Can my hon. Friend justify his statement by saying by whom it has been so shown?
      Andy Burnham: The justification is the figures, provided for every constituency, from the British Dental Association. In respect of five-year-olds, the constituencies with the best dental health in the country all have a fluoridated water supply. Those with the worst dental health are the poorest communities, which do not have a fluoridated water supply.
      Mr. Lansley rose—
      Mr. Kevin Hughes rose—
      Andy Burnham: I shall make progress as others want to speak.
      We have a once-in-a-generation opportunity to pass legislation that will have a rapid effect on the nation's health, particularly in our most deprived communities, and we must seize it. In fact, it was a Bill passed in 1985 by the previous Conservative Government that made water fluoridation legal, although pointing that out will not help me on this side of the House. The Government's proposed change simply gives effect to the spirit of that legislation.
      Mr. Drew: I was under the impression that, when the clause was added, it was an all-party move that the Government did not instigate, but which they may have been sympathetic to. If the Government are in favour of fluoridation, let them say so, but they are not saying that. They are sitting on the fence and hoping that this place will vote in favour of fluoridation. Can my hon. Friend clarify that point?
      Andy Burnham: I referred to early-day motion 247, which I tabled. It was signed by Members on both sides, including the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), who introduced the original legislation—a powerful voice—and the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mrs. Calton) among many others. The Government are right because they are giving communities the chance to decide for themselves. I do not believe that a single Member of the House has the right to deny my constituents the ability to make their own decision on this issue.
      Mr. Alan Williams: Does my hon. Friend not understand that he is not doing what he says? He is not giving his constituents the right to do what they want. He is taking one minority—a local government minority—and getting that to force-feed fluoride, as opposed to having a regional health authority do that. He is still force-feeding fluoride and compulsory medication.
      Andy Burnham: I am not force-feeding anything to anyone. I support the amendment that gives effect to the original water fluoridation legislation that was passed by the Conservative party and incorporated in its privatisation legislation. It said that, on the back of consultation with local communities, health bodies should make a request to fluoridate. That was the spirit of the legislation that the House passed, and on what basis should we deny our communities the chance to choose for themselves in accordance with the spirit of that legislation?
      Mr. Wray: When my hon. Friend reads the paper from the British Dental Association, does he not notice that inner London has the best dental care? The water in that area has never been fluoridated.
      Andy Burnham: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. I am looking at the league table for the worst dental health in the country. If he does not mind me saying, Glasgow has the worst children's dental health in the whole country. When we know a safe and effective means of doing something for the children in Glasgow, we should do it.
      On my hon. Friend's specific point, I see that Cities of London and Westminster is No. 10 on the list of the worst constituencies for children's dental health. Under-fives there have, on average, almost three missing, filled or decayed teeth. Right below that constituency are Kensington and Chelsea, which is at No. 11 on the list, and Regent's Park and Kensington, North, which is at No. 12. Inner London is right at the top of the league for the worst dental health in the country.
      Mr. Wray: Glasgow also has the four most deprived areas in the whole of the United Kingdom.
      Andy Burnham: My point is that, as a supporter of a socialist Government and member of the Labour party, I ask my colleagues in my party to vote for water fluoridation. We know that it is the most effective way of improving the dental health and quality of life of children in our poorest communities. We should all take that opportunity as members of the Labour party.
      Mr. Kevin Hughes: Will my hon. Friend look at the British Dental Association report? Does he not see that in 19 of the best 20 constituencies for dental health the water is not fluoridated?
      Andy Burnham: I have looked in detail at the figures and I point my hon. Friend to the constituency with the best dental health in the country. The best is Tamworth, where the water is fluoridated. Tamworth does not have the social profile of the wealthiest parts of the country, but it has the best children's dental health. I put it to him that that has something to do with water fluoridation.
      I shall now attempt to make progress. This is a controversial issue and the Government deserve credit for taking it on and seeking to resolve it. However, I take the view that the issue has been allowed to become controversial not because most people oppose fluoridation—surveys of the public show that they do not—but because a noisy minority send long letters to Members of Parliament. The chief medical officer unequivocally endorses water fluoridation as the most
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      effective means of improving the health of the nation. What Member of the House has more evidence than he does to make such a recommendation?
      Mr. Etherington: My hon. Friend suggests that a majority are in favour of fluoridation, and he has already made the point that he is trying to do what he thinks is right for his constituents. A poll carried out by a local newspaper showed that more than 90 per cent. of my constituents were against fluoridation. I hope that he will bear that in mind when he talks about MPs being influenced by noisy minorities. That is not always the case.
      Andy Burnham: The latest poll carried out by NOP found that 67 per cent. of people support fluoridation if it can be shown to reduce tooth decay—and it can.
      Mr. Hughes: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I wish to apologise to the House and to my hon. Friend. Another hon. Friend has just pointed out that there is another page in the report and that I was looking at the wrong one.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: That was not a point of order for the Chair, but a personal correction. I hope that we can now proceed to allow as many Members as possible to speak before the debate concludes.
      Andy Burnham: In my view, the health arguments do not stack up. They are chucked around by people opposed to fluoridation because they know that the civil liberties argument advanced by the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) is not strong enough. That is what it comes down to: a choice between the civil liberties of the individual and the common good, and particularly the common good of our most deprived communities.
      I readily accept that there may be a cost to the individual's liberties in drinking one part per million of fluoride in water. But what is the benefit? Water fluoridation has been shown to improve the dental health of an entire population, cutting needless suffering and improving people's quality of life. Given that choice and that cost and that benefit, I will always opt for the common good over civil liberties. It is morally wrong for us to know of a safe and effective means of cutting children's suffering and then not give local communities the power to choose it for themselves. But that is what some propose we do tonight.
      New clause 1 is a backward-looking piece of nonsense from the Flat Earth Society that deserves rejecting out of hand. It would end water fluoridation in parts of Birmingham and the west midlands without giving those communities any say about it whatsoever. On what basis does the hon. Member for Ceredigion have the right to do that to the communities that currently have water fluoridation?
      Mr. Simon Thomas: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
      Andy Burnham: I have given way a lot and Mr. Deputy Speaker wants us to make progress. Just as

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      imposing fluoridation would be wrong, so is any effort to prevent local communities from accessing a proven health intervention used the world over.
      Amendment No. 1, tabled by the hon. Member for Ceredigion, seeks to preserve the status quo, with private water companies in charge of the decision. This is an unashamed attempt to maintain a flawed system simply because the deadlock it will bring—and the choice that it denies to local communities—suits the hon. Gentleman's views. Surely the House should, wherever possible, facilitate local people taking their own decisions.
      Amendment No. 8 has more to recommend it. If nothing else, by placing the decision in the hands of a local authority, it passes the democracy test. If passed, it would be a significant improvement to the current system, but it is, I think, superficially attractive for two reasons. First, the practicalities dictate that fluoridating a water supply should be a strategic regional decision, not a local matter. Secondly, it is a public health matter and, as such, should rest with those who are expert in public health matters and skilled at informing the public in these difficult areas.
      For these reasons, the Government have rightly placed the decision in the hands of strategic health authorities. It is, of course, vital that SHAs conduct extensive and rigorous consultation before taking a decision to proceed with a regional scheme. If the decision were to go to local authorities, differences of opinion between them may render a scheme impractical. If, in an area such as Greater Manchester, there was one objection, that could be sufficient to render the scheme impractical. That could prevent those who voted in favour of water fluoridation from receiving it, which would be neither democratic nor fair. I suspect that the amendment is a wrecking amendment that has been dressed up to appear more attractive, but it should be resisted. Clause 58 should be allowed to remain as drafted.
      I make two appeals to hon. Members on both sides of the House: first, choose the common good over civil liberty, especially given that the liberty concerns a negligible particle of fluoride and the good would substantially improve dental health in the most deprived of our communities; and, secondly, even if hon. Members are not persuaded of the case for water fluoridation per se, basic democracy demands that clause 58 remain unamended. I have seen at first hand general anaesthetics being administered week in, week out at Manchester dental hospital on children as young as five. Although the hon. Member for Ceredigion said that such procedures are not used any more, 2,000 such general anaesthetics are administered each year in Greater Manchester, but none is administered in Birmingham, which has fluoridated water. Should any hon. Member deny my constituents the chance to do something for themselves about that dreadful situation?
      Norman Baker: I have two immediate regrets. First, the proposal should not be in the Bill at all because, irrespective of its merits, it belongs in a health Bill. Secondly, I regret the fact that I am only the fifth speaker, despite the fact that we are an hour and a half into a two-hour debate, which shows that we have had
      116
      insufficient time. I guarantee hon. Members that my speech will be the shortest of those that we have heard so far.
      8.30 pm
      I am pleased that the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) tabled new clause 1, because we danced around the issue of fluoride for some time on Second Reading and in Committee. Is it appropriate to put fluoride in water? That is the nub of the issue and the question that people want answered, so I hope that we shall have the chance to vote on new clause 1 in half an hour.
      Stephen Hesford: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
      Norman Baker: I shall not give way to any hon. Member who has already spoken, although I shall give way to hon. Members who have not spoken, if necessary.
      Does fluoride give health benefits? I conclude that it does but that the benefits are limited. Are there health risks from fluoride? Probably not, but there might be risks, so we need to do further work on that. That equation is not sufficient to justify overriding civil liberties and the genuine opposition of at least a minority of the population to the adulteration of water—as they see it—by adding a medical substance. The hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) talked about choosing the common good over civil liberties, but civil liberties are the common good, so we should not mix up those two concepts.
      In Committee, the Minister said with some sophistry—without wishing to be rude—that fluoride is not medication because it is not classed as a medicine. The whole purpose of adding fluoride to water is to derive a medical benefit. Hon. Members clearly have a view of whether that is right or not, but let us not pretend that fluoride is not a medicine. For the purpose of the Bill, it is treated as a medicine. Let us concentrate on whether it is appropriate to use the mass-medication process suggested in the Bill.
      Mrs. Patsy Calton: Will my hon. Friend consider medication a little more? What does he think should be done about the fluoride that occurs naturally in some parts of the country?
      Norman Baker: The hon. Member for Ceredigion dealt with that point when he drew a parallel with radon gas, which is naturally present in some parts of the country. We encounter environmental hazards during our lives about which we can do little—they are part of living on this planet. However, we do have the opportunity to decide whether to enhance or minimise those hazards. Some people believe that fluoride, as a man-made addition to water, is unwelcome because of its potential hazards. Adding fluoride to water is not necessary when one considers the ultimate behaviour of man.
      Amendment No. 1 is superficially attractive. Although I happen to be against fluoridation, in Committee I voted against removing what was then clause 61—it is now clause 58—because it does not relate to whether it is right or wrong. New clause 1

      117
      relates to the principle of whether fluoride should be in water but clause 58 contains mechanistic provisions for the bodies that should decide the matter—the water companies, as is the case at present, or strategic health authorities, as the clause would provide. Hon. Members who want to vote against fluoride should vote in favour of new clause 1 because clause 58 relates only to who should make decisions on the matter. I am clear that it would be better, although not perfect, for the decision to be made by a strategic health authority rather than a water company, which is the basis of clause 58. That is why I favour new clause 1 but oppose removing clause 58.
      Having said that it would be preferable for a strategic authority to make the decision, it would not be the best solution. If fluoride is to continue to be added to water, it is better for that to be decided by common consent with popular support. The decision will receive popular support if it is taken independently. However, SHAs are not independent because they have an agenda. They are not democratically elected and there is only a thin line between them and the Secretary of State for Health, which shows their democratic credentials. SHAs would not take a local decision because they are not local. It would be quite wrong to impose a measure that many people would consider to be an infringement of their civil liberties by a mechanism that was not independent, democratic or local, which would be the case if SHAs made the decision. If new clause 1 is unsuccessful and the House accepts the principle of adding fluoride to water, it is important for us all that there is a means of dealing with its addition in a way that commands public support. In that way, even those who do not want it will know that they have had an opportunity to have their say and had an input into the decision. That can be achieved by involving local authorities. They might not be perfect but they are local, democratically elected and accountable, which is more than can be said of strategic health authorities.
      The drafting of amendment No. 8, for which I have considerable sympathy, is faulty. It refers to one local authority. There is, of course, no coterminosity between local authority boundaries and water company boundaries or even water supply areas within water companies. South East Water uses several different sources to supply people in my constituency. The direct link between a local authority and the water supply is not necessarily right. A combination of local authorities would be necessary to bring about a decision-making process. I do not pretend that that would be easy. It is better to have a difficult but justifiable situation, however, than an easy but unjustifiable situation, which is the case with the strategic health authorities.
      I hope that we will vote on new clause 1 so that we determine the principle of the matter. It is a free vote for my colleagues, as I imagine it is for other parties, although I am not sure about Plaid Cymru. The Government Whip, the hon. Member for West Carmarthen and South Pembrokeshire (Mr. Ainger), shakes his head. Perhaps he has inside knowledge of Plaid Cymru's workings. I also hope that we will vote on amendment No. 8 because the accountability of those who take the decisions is important.
      Mr. Alan Williams: I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) that when the subject was first debated on the Floor of the House I was on the Opposition Front Bench, which I left to join the Back Benches so that I could oppose the then Government's proposal. I did so for the same reasons that make me oppose it today. It is a matter not of whether fluoride is good or bad, but of whether compulsory medication is right or wrong. It is a fundamental right of every individual in this country, other than in a major national emergency, to say, "I do not want medication." It does not matter what part of the electorate is chosen to make the decision, whether it is the local authority or people voting in a national referendum, a minority will be forced to accept compulsory medication.
      My hon. Friend said that 67 per cent. of people in a poll were in favour of fluoridation. That means that one in three people who replied did not want to be force fed fluoride, but in arrogance people who have just come into this House and do not understand the prime responsibility—[Interruption.]
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord)Order.
      Mr. Williams: Those people do not understand that the prime responsibility of the House of Commons cuts across parties to protect the rights and privileges of the people of this country. People have the right to say no to medication. We cannot say no to a water supply, because we must have water. No one can pretend that fluoride is a matter of life or death. Professor Sheldon said that at best it gives an estimated benefit in the order of 15 per cent. Are hon. Members seriously saying that to get a 15 per cent. benefit we will force feed one in three people? It is as simple as that. If hon. Members miss that point, they do not understand what the House of Commons is about.
      Sir Paul Beresford: I obviously have a declared interest and, as such, will take a slightly different approach. I will not go through the facts and figures. Other hon. Members have the opportunity to do so. I want to touch on the caries aspect of the problem and my experience of fluoride in this country and elsewhere.
      The proposal is a little start—a tiny step forward—but it is decades behind the United States, Australia and New Zealand. I was a child in New Zealand and graduated from dentistry there. We have three dental generations in New Zealand: my parents' generation, which has plastic teeth; my generation, which has our own teeth but heavily filled; and the next generation—my children's generation—most of whom have little or no sign of decay and no fluorosis. I speak as someone who has looked through a microscope at the teeth of living patients. The first place in New Zealand where fluoridation was introduced many decades ago was a little town called Hastings. There was a huge scream, and there were allegations of the type that we have heard tonight about cancer and brittle bones. There were even allegations about the process being used by the Nazis for torture, but it all proved to be absolute rubbish.
      Research on the subject in the past few decades has been enormous. Fluoride occurs naturally in many water supplies throughout the world, so there has been

      119
      a great the opportunity to look into its effects. In Hastings, the mayor made a brave decision to add fluoride to the water and there was, as I said, a scream. However, his biggest problem came from a local lady who said that a cup of tea would taste different. On day one, he pulled a lever, and the fluoride went in. There was an enormous number of complaints, but about six weeks later there was a small item in the paper saying that when the mayor had pulled the lever it was not connected to anything. A piece of machinery that was supposed to come from England had not arrived on the boat. However, New Zealand has had fluoride ever since, and it has been of tremendous benefit.
      Much has been made of the fact that decay can be prevented by other means, which is true. Much, too, has been made of the fact that there should be expenditure by the Government to teach prevention. The Ministry of Health in New Zealand tried that years ago, and put a huge amount into prevention. There was an advertising campaign, and three special colleges for school dental nurses were set up—the population, I remind hon. Members, was only about 2 million. Those girls did drilling and filling sessions at every single primary school—as kids, we called them "the murder house" because we had an enormous amount of decay.
      Once fluoride arrived, decay gradually disappeared and the need for those dental nurses was reduced. The population has more than doubled, as has the school population, but the number of schools for dental nurses has gone down from three to one. The girls are spending two thirds of their time teaching prevention, because they do not need to drill and fill.
      When I arrived in Britain about 30 years ago and went to work in east London, I could not believe what I saw. The points made by the hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) are quite right, as are the points made on the postcards, which, I hope, Members have received. What I saw was disgusting and appalling. I spent a large proportion of my time extracting teeth or refilling teeth when dental decay had eaten around what I had done heroically the previous year to save teeth, not just in children but in adults. Last night, I spoke to an elderly dentist in New Zealand, who told me that before fluoridation, filling teeth heroically was like trying to fill a bath with the plug out—it was hopeless. When fluoride arrived, that changed.
      I remember children and adults coming into my clinic with swollen faces and broken-off teeth. They had pus pouring out and were in considerable pain. They had sleepless nights and had to take days and hours off work or school. It was appalling. We used to run a general anaesthetic session every Thursday afternoon. That is not permitted now, because it is done in the hospitals, which have picked up the load that we had to deal with. We would put 18 to 20 patients through a huge series of extractions because there was no clinical alternative. That does not occur in New Zealand, Australia or the United States, where there is fluoride.
      I was staggered by the working hours that were lost. On Monday morning, dentists would have queues of patients lining up to see them. That does not happen in areas with fluoride.
      Mr. Kevin Hughes: Is the hon. Gentleman trying to say that that is all down to fluoridated water? I do not think that he can make that claim, because not even the York review and the General Medical Council are saying that. He is stretching the point a little.
      Sir Paul Beresford: What I am saying to the hon. Gentleman is that, having looked at mouths in one country where there is fluoride in water and in another country where there is none, I believe that, in addition to the benefit of fluoride toothpaste and where decent tuition has been given, we can beat caries with fluoride in the water supply, topped up by other methods. We must recognise, however, that in trying to teach adults and children in a country where there is less than one toothbrush per person, we need fluoride to take the initial step.
      8.45 pm
      In the past, children who came out of a dental surgery—this often still applies today—would be petrified of dental care thereafter, which contributed to the difficulty. I now run a very specialist and extremely part-time dental practice doing advanced restoration. The only pain is in the white envelope at the end of the day. We are doing high-class work, but it is still vulnerable to decay, and people would be protected from such decay to a considerable degree if fluoride were included in the water supply.
      Mr. Butterfill: Will my hon. Friend give way?
      Sir Paul Beresford: No; my hon. Friend has been bouncing up and down like a yo-yo, and I shall leave things like that for a moment, as I wish to move on.
      I have spent most of my life battling dental caries. I have been to conference after conference and read journal after journal, and I am absolutely convinced of the benefits and safety of a fluoridated water supply. Perhaps the best answer to those with health concerns, especially the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas), who tabled the new clause, is to remember that almost all the All Blacks will have had fluoridated water all their lives, and they beat Wales.
      The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Miss Melanie Johnson): I do not think I shall join that particular controversy.
      Hon. Members have made my job of speaking to the Government amendments and winding up the debate difficult. I shall endeavour to address the arguments and not deal with individual amendments, as time will not permit me to do so. First, it is ironic that the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas), who is in pursuit of liberties, is pursuing them through a whipped vote of his party, whereas many hon. Members are on a genuinely free vote. That is an extreme irony.
      Clause 58 is an enabling clause. No one is forcing anyone to do anything here or anywhere else. The point is that the provision is not for the whole country and it is democratic, as we are going to local communities and the Bill enables those communities to decide for themselves. That is very important. While we might want to reduce demand for dentistry, as the hon. Member for Ceredigion said, we also want to improve

      121
      dental health, as the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) pointed out, which is why dentists throughout the country support the measure as well. It is not in dentists' interests in terms of their business—let us admit it—to support the measure, but they have done so because of their interest in dental health. And yes, brushing teeth is essential too.
      Mr. Brian H. Donohoe: May I refer my hon. Friend to a letter written by the Secretary of State on 6 November, which states:
      "We are in sympathy with the amendment to the extent that we are resolved that local authorities should play a major part in reaching decisions"?
      Why does she accept that regional health authorities should undertake consultation but not local authorities, given that local authorities are democratically elected, while health authorities are quangos of this Government?
      Miss Johnson: Let me point out that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State also said:
      "we are equally certain that the overall process should be 'owned' by the Strategic Health Authority".
      That is the case for just the reason that hon. Members have advanced—strategic health authorities have a strategic role in public health. That is why they are ultimately the right place in that regard. I shall deal with the question in more detail and return to the question of local authorities in a moment.
      Several hon. Members rose—
      Miss Johnson: I need to make some progress, as I have but 10 minutes. My hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) is right about dental health inequalities. I draw hon. Members' attention to a letter in yesterday's edition of The Times that was signed by my right hon. Friends the Members for Darlington (Mr. Milburn) and for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson), the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) and Lord Fowler, all of whom were Secretaries of State for Health, and all of whom were supporting the fact that people should be able to choose fluoride under the existing clause. I do not need to point out that that is a very unusual collection of individuals who do not always bat together: in this case, it is important that they are doing so.
      Mr. Morley: It is a dream ticket.
      Miss Johnson: As my hon. Friend says, it is a dream ticket.
      On compulsory medication, the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mrs. Calton) is right to say that as fluoride is a naturally occurring substance, fluoridation is no more medication than is exposure to many other trace elements. We need some fluoride in our diet; many vegetables, among other things, contain trace elements of it, just as water contains many trace elements.
      We commissioned the University of York to review the evidence and, in response to its criticism of the quality of some of the evidence, we asked the Medical Research Council how it might be strengthened. It came to the conclusion that many of the suggested areas for
      122
      further research were very low priorities, because the existence of many of the harms that hon. Members have mentioned could not be proved.
      Mr. Kidney: After the MRC's response, the Government commissioned a study on one recommendation and asked the chief medical officer and the chief dental officer to report on the others. Does my hon. Friend have the results of that research, and can she share them with us before we vote?
      Miss Johnson: We have provisional advice on the outcome of the research on bio-absorption of fluoride. The results are very encouraging. As they are still being peer reviewed, it would not be appropriate to discuss them now, but all the evidence will be available to local communities when strategic health authorities discuss the matter under the provisions of the Bill, if it is supported by the House.
      On international comparisons, 400 million people in 60 countries benefit from optimally fluoridated drinking water, either naturally occurring or adjusted. That includes 64 per cent. of people in the US, 43 per cent. in Canada, 75 per cent. in Israel and 61 per cent. in New Zealand.
      Mr. Butterfill: Can the Minister confirm that in certain parts of the United States and, indeed, Europe, fluoride-treated water has been withdrawn?
      Miss Johnson: No, I cannot. Indeed, in Los Angeles, fluoridated water was recently introduced to a large additional population. I am not sure to what the hon. Gentleman refers.
      The effectiveness of fluoride in reducing tooth decay is not as the hon. Member for Ceredigion suggests. The York study said that fluoridation would result in 15 per cent. more children having no tooth decay, which is better than the 15 per cent. reduction that he describes. In the end, it comes down to a balance of judgment. Hon. Members mentioned the 1,500 to 2,000 children in the Manchester area who have their teeth extracted under general anaesthetic each year and may thereby be placing their lives at unnecessary risk. That could be avoided by going down the path that the clause advocates in enabling those communities to decide for themselves. Six million people in this country drink fluoridated water. New clause I would remove that ability even from those who currently use fluoridated water. I hope that hon. Members of all parties are well aware of that.
      There is 40 years' experience of fluoridation.
      Mr. Kevin Hughes: If we were to hold a vote on fluoridation in Doncaster in which 40 per cent. voted against it and 60 per cent. in favour of it, what advice would the Minister give to the 40 per cent. who did not want fluoride in their water? What would they do?
      Miss Johnson: My hon. Friend knows that we do not propose to hold referendums. However, whenever local opinion is in favour of something, some people will not support it. That is probably true in Birmingham where water is fluoridated.

      123
      The York report suggested that approximately 15 per cent. more people in fluoridated areas had fluorosis, not 48 per cent., the figure that I believe that the hon. Member for Ceredigion cited. From his considerable experience of dentistry, the hon. Member for Mole Valley described the way in which the matter is regarded and how minor it often is.
      Amendment No. 8 deals with the involvement of local people. The Secretary of State for Health circulated a letter to all hon. Members that stated that we were in sympathy with the amendment to the extent that we are resolved that local authorities should play a major part in reaching decisions about whether an area should fluoridate. The views of local authorities will need to be taken into account at every step of the consultation. We are convinced that decisions should be owned at strategic health authority level.
      Mr. Drew: Will the Minister give way?
      Miss Johnson: I shall in a moment. As part of our modernisation programme, borough councils, unitary authorities and all the county councils have established overview and scrutiny committees, which have a remit to consider health services. We accept that local authorities have an important role in those matters.
      Mr. Colin Challen: Will my hon. Friend clarify whether the results of any public consultation would be binding on health authorities under the Bill?
      Miss Johnson: We are clear that health authorities should accede to the proposal to ask for fluoridation in their area if consultations ascertain that the local population is in favour of it. I was a local authority member for 16 years and I do not believe that local authorities are the right vehicle for the decision. In many cases, local authorities do not cover large areas. There is already an issue about the coterminosity of water companies with strategic health authority areas. The logistics, the size difference, the potential bureaucracy of bringing authorities together and the problems that some hon. Friends have outlined of local authorities running the process rather than being key components, as we envisage them, mean that the proposal is wrong.
      Strategic health authorities are responsible for health decisions and it is therefore right that they are able to pursue the matter as the overall ring holder.
      Norman Baker: Does the Minister envisage a one-size-fits-all solution in a strategic health authority or can local communities express their views such as the possibility of different solutions in the same health authority area?
      Miss Johnson: That is an interesting point. We believe that the solution should apply to a strategic health authority area, but there will be issues with the water companies about boundaries and the relationships with them.
      Mr. Donohoe: Will the Minister give way?
      Miss Johnson: I want to move on to make one or two additional points. I have had little time to contribute to the debate.
      124
      In Bolton, 70 per cent. of five-year-olds have experienced tooth decay. On average, each child has more than three decayed teeth. There is no fluoridation in the north-west. In the west midlands and Crewe, only 23 per cent. of five-year-olds have experienced tooth decay. I believe that the case has clearly been made for allowing local communities to decide, and we are enabling them to do so.
      I would like to draw Members' attention to the comments of the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key), who said in Committee that he had decided that he was not prepared to pass by on the other side, and that this was a question of balance and judgment. He said:
      "I have decided that, in this instance, child health must take precedence over my scruples, prejudices and personal views on individual liberty and freedom."—[Official Report, Standing Committee D, 23 October 2003; c. 442.]
      I urge other hon. Members to do likewise.
      It being Nine o'clock, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER put the Question already proposed from the Chair.
      The House divided: Ayes 181, Noes 284.

      Division No. 357]

      [9:00 pm

      AYES

      Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

      Drew, David (Stroud)

      Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

      Duncan, Alan (Rutland)

      Allan, Richard

      Etherington, Bill

      Ancram, rh Michael

      Evans, Nigel

      Arbuthnot, rh James

      Fabricant, Michael

      Austin, John

      Fallon, Michael

      Bacon, Richard

      Flook, Adrian

      Baker, Norman

      Forth, rh Eric

      Barker, Gregory

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      Barnes, Harry

      Fox, Dr. Liam

      Baron, John (Billericay)

      Francois, Mark

      Barrett, John

      Garnier, Edward

      Beith, rh A. J.

      Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

      Bellingham, Henry

      Goodman, Paul

      Benn, rh Hilary

      Gray, James (N Wilts)

      Bennett, Andrew

      Grayling, Chris

      Bercow, John

      Green, Damian (Ashford)

      Brady, Graham

      Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

      Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

      Greenway, John

      Brazier, Julian

      Grogan, John

      Breed, Colin

      Gummer, rh John

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      Harvey, Nick

      Burgon, Colin

      Heath, David

      Burnett, John

      Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

      Burns, Simon

      Hendry, Charles

      Burstow, Paul

      Hinchliffe, David

      Burt, Alistair

      Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

      Butterfill, John

      Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Howard, rh Michael

      Cameron, David

      Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Hoyle, Lindsay

      Cash, William

      Hughes, K.evin (Doncaster N)

      Chope, Christopher

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Collins, Tim

      Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

      Con way, Derek

      Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

      Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

      Kirkwood, Sir Archy

      Corbyn, Jeremy

      Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

      Cotter, Brian

      Laing, Mrs Eleanor

      Crausby, David

      Lait, Mrs Jacqui

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Lamb, Norman

      Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

      Leigh, Edward

      Letwin, rh Oliver

      Djanogly, Jonathan

      Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

      Doran, Frank

      Liddell-Grainger, Ian

      125

      Lidington, David

      Sayeed, Jonathan

      Lilley, rh Peter

      Selous, Andrew

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Shepherd, Richard

      Loughton, Tim

      Sheridan, Jim

      Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

      Simmonds, Mark

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

      McCafferty, Chris

      Skinner, Dennis

      McDonnell, John

      Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

      MacDougall, John

      Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

      McIntosh, Miss Anne

      Mackay, rh Andrew

      Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

      Maclean, rh David

      Spicer, Sir Michael

      McLoughlin, Patrick

      Steen' Anthony

      McNamara, Kevin

      Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)

      Maples, John

      Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)

      Straw, rh Jack

      Streeter, Gary

      Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

      Swire, Hugo (E Devon)

      Syms, Robert

      Maude, rh Francis

      Tami, Mark (Alyn)

      May, Mrs Theresa

      Taylor, Sir Teddy

      Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

      Thomas Gareth (Clwyd W>

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Moore, Michael

      Tipping, Paddy

      Moss, Malcolm

      Trickett, Jon

      Mudie, George

      Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

      Murrison, Dr. Andrew

      Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

      Norman, Archie

      Tyne, Andrew

      O'Brien, Mike

      Vis, Dr. Rudi

      Osborne, George (Tatton)

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Ottaway, Richard

      Waterson, Nigel

      Paterson, Owen

      Watkinson, Angela

      Pickles, Eric

      Webb Steve (Nortnavon)

      Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

      White, Brian

      Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

      Whittingdale, John

      Wiggin, Bill

      Pugh, Dr. John

      Willetts, David

      Purchase, Ken

      Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Randall, John

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Redwood, rh John

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)

      Willis Phil

      Robathan, Andrew

      Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

      Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)

      Wood Mike (Batley)

      Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)

      Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

      Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

      Rosindell, Andrew

      Younger-Ross, Richard

      Ruddock, Joan

      Ruffley, David

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      Mr. Jim Murphy and

      Sanders, Adrian

      Derek Twigg

      NOES

      Ainger, Nick

      Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

      Allen, Graham

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)

      Brennan, Kevin

      Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Atkins, Charlotte

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

      Browne, Desmond

      Bailey, Adrian

      Bryant, Chris

      Baird, Vera

      Burden, Richard

      Baldry, Tony

      Burnham, Andy

      Banks, Tony

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Barron, rh Kevin

      Cairns, David

      Beard, Nigel

      Calton, Mrs Patsy

      Bell, Stuart

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Beresford, Sir Paul

      Caplin, Ivor

      Berry, Roger

      Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

      Betts, Clive

      Challen, Colin

      Blackman, Liz

      Chaytor, David

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Chidgey, David

      Blizzard, Bob

      Clappison, James

      Blunt, Crispin

      Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

      Borrow, David

      126

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Howells, Dr. Kim

      Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Hutton, rh John

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

      Iddon, Dr. Brian

      Illsley, Eric

      Clelland, David

      Ingram, rh Adam

      Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Jack, rh Michael

      Colman, Tony

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

      Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)

      Cooper, Yvette

      Jamieson, David

      Cousins, Jim

      Jenkins, Brian

      Cox, Tom (Tooting)

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

      Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

      Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

      Cummings, John

      Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)

      Jones, Kevan (N Durham)

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

      Curry, rh David

      Keen, Alan (Feltham)

      Darling, rh Alistair

      Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

      Davey, Edward (Kingston)

      Kemp, Fraser

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)

      David, Wayne

      Davidson, Ian

      Key, Robert (Salisbury)

      Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

      Khabra, Piara S.

      Dawson, Hilton

      Kidney, David

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Kilfoyle, Peter

      Denham, rh John

      King, Andy (Rugby)

      Dismore, Andrew

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

      Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

      Dobson, rh Frank

      Kirkbride, Miss Julie

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Kumar, Dr. Ashok

      Edwards, Huw

      Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

      Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

      Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

      Farrelly, Paul

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Fisher, Mark

      Leslie, Christopher

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Flint, Caroline

      Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

      Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

      Linton, Martin

      Follett, Barbara

      Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

      Foster, rh Derek

      Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

      Luke, lain (Dundee E)

      McCabe, Stephen

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Gardiner, Barry

      MacDonald, Calum

      George, Andrew (St. Ives)

      McFall, John

      Gerrard, Neil

      McGuire, Mrs Anne

      Gibson, Dr. Ian

      McIsaac, Shona

      Gilroy, Linda

      McKechin, Ann

      Godsiff, Roger

      McKenna, Rosemary

      Goggins, Paul

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

      McNulty, Tony

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      MacShane, Denis

      Hammond, Philip

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      Hanson, David

      McWalter, Tony

      Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)

      McWilliam, John

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      Mallaber, Judy

      Hayes, John (S Holland)

      Mandelson, rh Peter

      Healey, John

      Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

      Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

      Martlew, Eric

      Hendrick, Mark

      Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

      Heppell, John

      Meale, Alan (Mansfield)

      Hesford, Stephen

      Michael, rh Alun

      Hill, Keith (Streatham)

      Milburn, rh Alan

      Hodge, Margaret

      Miliband, David

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Miller, Andrew

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

      Horam, John (Orpington)

      Moffatt, Laura

      Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

      Mole, Chris

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

      Moonie, Dr. Lewis

      Moran, Margaret

      127

      Morley, Elliot

      Spellar, rh John

      Mountford, Kali

      Squire, Rachel

      Mullin, Chris

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Steinberg, Gerry

      Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

      Stevenson, George

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

      Stoate, Dr. Howard

      Olner, Bill

      Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

      Organ, Diana

      Stringer, Graham

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Stuart, Ms Gisela

      Page, Richard

      Stunell, Andrew

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Sutcliffe, Gerry

      Pearson, Ian

      Tapsell, Sir Peter

      Perham, Linda

      Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

      Pickthall, Colin

      Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

      Pike, Peter (Burnley)

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Plaskitt, James

      Taylor, Ian (Esher)

      Pollard, Kerry

      Taylor, John (Solihull)

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

      Portillo, rh Michael

      Teather, Sarah

      Pound, Stephen

      Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

      Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

      Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

      Primarolo, rh Dawn

      Tredinnick, David

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Truswell, Paul

      Purnell, James

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kermptown)

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Rammell, Bill

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Reed, Andy (Loughborough)

      Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

      Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

      Walter, Robert

      Ward, Claire

      Rendel, David

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

      Watts, David

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

      Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

      Wilkinson, John

      Ruane, Chris

      Williams, Betty (Conwy)

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

      Winnick, David

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

      Salter, Martin

      Savidge, Malcolm

      Woolas, Phil

      Sawford, Phil

      Worthington, Tony

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

      Shaw, Jonathan

      Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Singh, Marsha

      Wyatt, Derek

      Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)

      Young, rh Sir George

      Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

      Jim Fitzpatrick and

      Soley, Clive

      Joan Ryan

      Question accordingly negatived.
      MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour, pursuant to Order [5 November].

    Clause 58

      FLUORIDATION OF WATER SUPPLIES
      Amendment proposed:No. 8, in page 75, line 23, leave out from 'a' to end of line 25 and insert 'local authority'.—[Mr. Wiggin.]
      Question put,That the amendment be made:—
      The House divided: Ayes 200, Noes 243.
      128

      Division No. 358]

      [9.14 pm

      AYES

      Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

      Harvey, Nick

      Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

      Hayes, John (S Holland)

      Allan, Richard

      Heath, David

      Arbuthnot, rh James

      Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

      Austin, John

      Hendry, Charles

      Bacon, Richard

      Hinchliffe, David

      Baird, Vera

      Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

      Baker, Norman

      Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)

      Barker, Gregory

      Howard, rh Michael

      Barnes, Harry

      Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

      Baron, John (Billericay)

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Beith, rh A. J.

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Bellingham, Henry

      Jack, rh Michael

      Bennett, Andrew

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Bercow, John

      Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

      Blunt, Crispin

      Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

      Borrow, David

      Kaufman, rh Gerald

      Brady, Graham

      Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)

      Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

      Brazier, Julian

      Kirkbride, Miss Julie

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

      Burns, Simon

      Laing, Mrs Eleanor

      Burstow, Paul

      Lait, Mrs Jacqui

      Burt, Alistair

      Lamb, Norman

      Butterfill, John

      Lansley, Andrew

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Cameron, David

      Leigh, Edward

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Letwin, rh Oliver

      Cash, William

      Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)

      Challen, Colin

      Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

      Chidgey, David

      Liddell-Grainger, Ian

      Chope, Christopher

      Lidington, David

      Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

      Lilley, rh Peter

      Collins, Tim

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

      Loughton, Tim

      Corbyn, Jeremy

      Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

      Cotter, Brian

      Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

      Crausby, David

      McCafferty, Chris

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      McDonnell, John

      Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

      McIntosh, Miss Anne

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Mackay, rh Andrew

      Davey, Edward (Kingston)

      Maclean, rh David

      Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

      McLoughlin, Patrick

      Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

      McNamara, Kevin

      Maples, John

      Dhanda, Parmjit

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Dismore, Andrew

      Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)

      Djanogly, Jonathan

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      Maude, rh Francis

      Doughty, Sue

      May, Mrs Theresa

      Drew, David (Stroud)

      Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

      Duncan, Alan (Rutland)

      Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

      Moore, Michael

      Etherington, Bill

      Moss, Malcolm

      Fabricant, Michael

      Murrison, Dr. Andrew

      Fallon, Michael

      Norman, Archie

      Flook, Adrian

      O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

      Forth, rh Eric

      Organ, Diana

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      Osborne, George (Tatton)

      Francois, Mark

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Garnier, Edward

      Ottaway, Richard

      George, Andrew (St. Ives)

      Page, Richard

      Goodman, Paul

      Paterson, Owen

      Gray, James (N Wilts)

      Pickles, Eric

      Grayling, Chris

      Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

      Green, Damian (Ashford)

      Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

      Pugh, Dr. John

      Greenway, John

      Purchase, Ken

      Grogan, John

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Gummer, rh John

      Randall, John

      Hammond, Philip

      Redwood, rh John

      Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)

      Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)

      Rendel, David

      129

      Robathan, Andrew

      Tapsell, Sir Peter

      Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)

      Taylor, Sir Teddy

      Teather, Sarah

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Tipping, Paddy

      Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Tredinnick, David

      Trickett, Jon

      Rosindell, Andrew

      Truswell, Paul

      Ruddock, Joan

      Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

      Ruffley, David

      Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      Sanders, Adrian

      Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

      Sayeed, Jonathan

      Tynan' Bill (Hamilton S)

      Selous, Andrew

      Tyrie, Andrew

      Shepherd, Richard

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Sheridan, Jim

      Waterson, Nigel

      Simmonds, Mark

      Watkinson, Angela

      Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

      Webb, Steve (Northavon)

      Skinner, Dennis

      White, Brian

      Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

      Wiggin, Bill

      Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

      Willetts, David

      Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Spicer, Sir Michael

      Willis, Phil

      Steen, Anthony

      Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

      Steinberg, Gerry

      Wood Mike (Batley)

      Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)

      Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)

      Straw, rh Jack

      Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

      Streeter, Gary

      Younger-Ross, Richard

      Stunell, Andrew

      Swire, Hugo (E Devon)

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Syms, Robert

      Mr. Jim Murphy and

      Tami, Mark (Alyn)

      Derek Twigg

      NOES

      Ainger, Nick

      Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Allen, Graham

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)

      Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

      Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

      Atkins, Charlotte

      Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

      Clelland, David

      Bailey, Adrian

      Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

      Banks, Tony

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Barron, rh Kevin

      Colman, Tony

      Beard Nigel

      Cook'rh Robin (Livingston)

      Beckett, rh Margaret

      Cooper, Yvette

      Bell, Stuart

      Cousins, Jim

      Beresford, Sir Paul

      Cox' Tom (Tooting)

      Berry Roger

      Cryer'Ann (Keighley)

      Belts, Clive

      Cummmgs, John

      Blackman, Liz

      Cunningham rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Blizzard, Bob

      Curry, rh David

      Bottonmley, Peter (Worthing W)

      Darling, rh Alistair

      Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      David Wayne

      Brennan, Kevin

      Davidson, Ian

      Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

      Davis rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Dawson Hilton

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Denham, rh John

      Browne, Desmond

      Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

      Bryant, Chris

      Dobson, rh Frank

      Burden, Richard

      Dowd Jim (Lewisham W)

      Burnham, Andy

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Edwards, Huw

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Caplin, Ivor

      Farrelly, Paul

      Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

      Fisher, Mark

      Chaytor, David

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Clappison, James

      Flint, Caroline

      130

      Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

      McKenna, Rosemary

      Follett, Barbara

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Foster, rh Derek

      McNulty, Tony

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      MacShane, Denis

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      McWalter, Tony

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      McWilliam, John

      Gardiner, Barry

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Gerrard, Neil

      Mallaber, Judy

      Gibson, Dr. Ian

      Mandelson, rh Peter

      Gilroy, Linda

      Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

      Godsiff, Roger

      Martlew, Eric

      Goggins, Paul

      Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

      Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

      Meale, Alan (Mansfield)

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      Michael, rh Alun

      Hanson, David

      Milburn, rh Alan

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      Miliband, David

      Healey, John

      Miller, Andrew

      Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

      Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

      Hendrick, Mark

      Moffatt, Laura

      Heppell, John

      Mole, Chris

      Hesford, Stephen

      Moonie, Dr. Lewis

      Hill, Keith (Streatbam)

      Moran, Margaret

      Hodge, Margaret

      Morley, Elliot

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Mountford, Kali

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Mullin, Chris

      Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

      Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Howells, Dr. Kim

      Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Olner, Bill

      Hutton, rh John

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Iddon, Dr. Brian

      Perham, Linda

      Illsley, Eric

      Pickthall, Colin

      Ingram, rh Adam

      Pike, Peter (Burnley)

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      Plaskitt, James

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

      Pollard, Kerry

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Jenkins, Brian

      Portillo, rh Michael

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

      Pound, Stephen

      Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

      Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

      Jones, Kevan (N Durham)

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      Primarolo, rh Dawn

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

      Purnell, James

      Keen, Alan (Feltham)

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)

      Rammell, Bill

      Kemp, Fraser

      Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

      Key, Robert (Salisbury)

      Reed, Andy (Loughborough)

      Khabra, Piara S.

      Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

      Kidney, David

      Kilfoyle, Peter

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      King, Andy (Rugby)

      Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

      Ruane, Chris

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Kumar, Dr. Ashok

      Salter, Martin

      Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

      Savidge, Malcolm

      Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

      Sawford, Phil

      Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Leslie, Christopher

      Shaw, Jonathan

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Simon, Siôon (B'ham Erdington)

      Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

      Singh, Marsha

      Linton, Martin

      Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)

      Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

      Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

      Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

      Luke, lain (Dundee E)

      Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

      McCabe, Stephen

      Soley, Clive

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Spellar, rh John

      MacDonald, Calum

      Squire, Rachel

      MacDougall, John

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      McFall, John

      Stevenson, George

      McGuire, Mrs Anne

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      McIsaac, Shona

      Stoate, Dr. Howard

      McKechin, Ann

      Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

      131

      Stringer, Graham

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Stuart, Ms Gisela

      Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

      Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

      Wilkinson, John

      Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

      Williams, Betty (Conwy)

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Winnick, David

      Taylor, Ian (Esher)

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

      Taylor, John (Solihull)

      Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

      Woolas, Phil

      Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

      Worthington, Tony

      Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

      Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Wyatt, Derek

      Ward, Claire

      Young, rh Sir George

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Watts, David

      Jim Fitzpatrick and

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Joan Ryan

      Question accordingly negatived.
      Remaining Government amendments agreed to.
      Mr. Wiggin: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I seek your guidance about whether a free vote means that the Government Chief Whip should herd her supporters into the No Lobby.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: I must tell the hon. Gentleman that that is not a matter in which the Chair becomes involved in any way.
      Order for Third Reading read.—[Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, and Prince of Wales's Consent, on behalf of the Duchy of Cornwall, signified.]
      9.27 pm
      Mr. Morley: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
      The Bill has made steady progress through the House, and I thank hon. Members for their commitment in helping it reach this stage and for their contributions to interesting and thoughtful debates. In particular, I thank the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Miss Johnson), for her work this evening on fluoridation, on which we heard some very good speeches.
      The points raised on the Bill have not suggested that its principle is wrong. I am glad that the principle of the Bill has received so much support. Members have asked whether the Bill should go further, how far it should go or what should be in it that is not in it. I feel that our debates have answered the fundamental questions asked while clarifying our intentions and the Bill's scope. I am particularly pleased with the amendments that we have made today to strengthen the sustainable development duty on the consumer council, which was of particular interest to my hon. Friend the Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Ms Atherton). I am sorry that she cannot be with us tonight, but she will be pleased to know that we have addressed the points that she raised in Committee.
      Hon. Members have welcomed the amendments intended to address the problem of private sewers, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Sherwood (Paddy Tipping), for Rugby and Kenilworth (Andy King) and for Stroud (Mr. Drew) and Opposition Members who raised that matter. As an estimated 50 per cent. of households are connected in some way or other to private sewers, the issue is not
      132
      minor and requires much careful thought. Although it is unlikely that there will be quick, short-term solutions, the Government are committed to addressing the issue.
      I enjoyed the debates, although I realise that concerns remain and that we have not reached agreement on some things. I very much hope that the assurances that I have given and put on record about the principles and about some of the affected groups and industries will go some way to address the legitimate concerns that have been raised.
      The impact of the Bill on industries that abstract water, especially in relation to quarry de-watering, which is being introduced for the first time, understandably concerns people who will have to obtain licences when they previously did not have to. Like many of the resources on which we rely, water is not in infinite supply. Until recently, we thought that rain was not in short supply in this country and that our water stocks could always be replenished but, increasingly, demand is rising and our water supplies struggle to meet it. Recent drought warnings in some parts of the country are a timely reminder of that. It is thus important that all types of abstraction are controlled. The impact of quarry de-watering on other abstractors and the damage that it has sometimes caused to conservation sites should not be played down. However, the industry is legitimate and I hope that my reassurances will go some way to meet its concerns.
      Abstraction licensing based on water consumption rather than on activity type or water use is the only real way to tackle the problem of managing demand. If we are serious about sustainable development, we need to be ready to make those changes and look for alternatives to our current water use as well as seeking ways to reduce demand.
      In setting up new regulatory arrangements, it is tempting to be over-prescriptive, but experience tells us that we need some flexibility to allow the water services regulation authority and the consumer council for water to be managed and to shape themselves. Our role is to ensure that the minimum requirements are laid out to enable those bodies to carry out their functions in an open and transparent manner that benefits consumers, the industry on which they depend and other stakeholders. I can only reiterate that we are committed to best practice and, in the case of the authority, to follow the recent recommendations of the Better Regulation Task Force.
      As we have just heard, fluoridation will continue to spark much debate. However, it is important to continue to stress that the Government's approach to fluoridation has not changed; we are simply placing the decision to add fluoride to local water supplies in the hands of those best placed to make a decision: local strategic health authorities, in consultation with their local communities.
      Despite our differences of opinion, there has been agreement among Members on both sides of the House about the main principles of the Bill: to promote the sustainable use of water resources, strengthen the voice of consumers and achieve a measured increase in competition. Those principles bring challenges and the Bill meets them by reforming abstraction licensing to improve long-term water resource management; introducing provisions for the better operation and

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      regulation of the water industry and giving water consumers an independent voice; providing opportunities for competition for new entrants to supply water to large commercial and industrial customers; and promoting water conservation by undertakers and public bodies and, through them, by the public at large.
      The Bill cannot deal with all water matters. In relation to our debates about such things as the water framework directive, it is important to think of the Bill as only one part of the wider water conservation and sustainable development picture. The Bill's contribution to that picture will greatly depend on the commitment to its principles beyond this place. Although the principle of sustainable development underpins the Bill, the measure is specifically about balancing the interests of the environment, consumers, water companies and other abstractors—a balance that we have sought to achieve throughout the Bill.
      The Bill's Committee was one of the more constructive Committees on which I have served. The contributions from both sides were thoughtful and some good ideas were proposed. I end my speech by repeating that the measure forms part of an ongoing process to ensure that we take a sustainable approach to water, which is not an infinite resource—as we saw from the pressures put on us this year, the driest on record. We also face global pressures on water resources. The issues are important and the Bill goes a long way to meeting our commitment to sustainability in all aspects of Government policy.
      9.34 pm
      Mr. Wiggin: The Bill had the potential to make a significant and positive impact on the UK water industry's regulation, competition and environmental sustainability. Instead, the Government have missed many good opportunities to implement something constructive, open, democratic and fair. I agree with the Minister that contributions throughout the debates on the Bill have been thoughtful, constructive, helpful and heartfelt in their intentions. The Government's intentions may have been sound, but they have failed to deliver them, and I am disappointed about the huge gulf between what could have been achieved during the constructive debates in Committee and what has been allowed to pass.
      First, the Bill fails to link water abstraction with planning. The application processes for abstraction and planning and their dates of commencement and expiry should be simultaneous, so that there is only one course of action to take for a business wishing to abstract. A business with planning permission should be able to abstract, as it is a requirement of the planning process that abstraction is environmentally safe. The delay created by such a separation will undermine the certainty that businesses require in the longer term. That will not provide a sustainable outlook for water abstractors and is the first example of the Government fracturing investment in the water industry. Such fracturing persists throughout the Bill.
      Secondly, the Government must have severely dented investor confidence in the water industry through their alterations to abstraction licences. I tried to ensure that the period of abstraction licences should be determined
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      only after the Environment Agency has taken into account the infrastructure, costs and investments associated with the abstraction. The presumption of renewal could have been made more explicit in the Bill, but the Government have failed to create an open and clear process that would provide the stability required by those making long-term investment decisions. I cannot understand why the criteria for licence renewal are not incorporated into the Bill.
      Thirdly, I remain concerned for drinking water companies—the Minister did not mention them, but they constitute a very British industry—and the Bill's consequences for their long-term prospects. Of course, I refer to allowing small abstractors to drill boreholes into licensed abstractors' aquifers. We covered that earlier today.
      Water conservation duties have not been given high enough priority. Despite the Minister constantly reminding us in Committee and today that the Bill is about water resource management, the provision on the first crucial step to managing water has been worded far too weakly. That is not in the best interests of the future efficiency of our water sector. Equally, it is important to voice once again my concerns about the powers of the water services regulation authority and the possible danger that they involve. By not stating that the posts of chairman and chief executive are separate, the Government could allow a monopoly on the control of the regulation of the water industry.
      Another matter of enormous significance is the failure to connect the Bill with the EU water framework directive of 2002. Perhaps one day the Government will get around to introducing legislation to deal with the EU commitments that they signed us up to.
      I regret that clause 58, on fluoridation of water supplies, was sneaked into the Bill and subsequently pushed aside other important water issues. That is a fundamental failure by the Government: the Bill was neither the time nor the place to include that clause. Although fluoridation may have swamped the other topics by comparison, consultation on the issue has still not been as in-depth and detailed as perhaps it should have been.
      I am also concerned that strategic health authorities will not ensure neutral, comprehensive consultations, because they are certainly not the correct bodies to assess people's views objectively. That has been shown by the very close vote that we have just had. Strategic health authorities are not representative of local communities, but the Government have nevertheless steamed ahead with the arrangements and duly failed to live up to the promise of local determination. Instead, they have left the decision to bodies with clearly biased agendas. This is a sad day for democracy and freedom.
      The ideas of sustainability and resource management behind the Bill are welcome, but, sadly, the principles have not been applied to the content. As for the Government's supposed commitment to sustainability, the UK ranks 91st in the world environmental sustainability index. That is a disgrace and perhaps a reflection of the Government's lack of commitment to this country's environment. I am saddened by the knowledge that the Bill will not further the sustainability of the water industry.

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      There has been much constructive and intelligent debate among hon. Members on both sides in Committee and today, but my hopes that such discussion would lead to improvements in the Bill have not been realised to the extent that I had hoped. I regret the waste of the available opportunities for improvement, and I fear that the lack of certainty caused by the refusal to put statutory assurances in the Bill will significantly undermine the industry's long-term investment future.
      9.39 pm
      Dr. Brian Iddon: It was a pleasure to serve on the Bill, and I congratulate the main spokespersons on both sides of the House on demonstrating the necessary technical knowledge, particularly in the early stages, when we were talking about abstraction; it was such knowledge that saw the Bill through. I have not followed the water industry with particular zeal, but I have learned a lot by serving on the Standing Committee, which sat for 11 two-and-a-half-hour sittings. If not exactly a marathon, that was certainly a long time.
      The memories that remain with me from the debate on abstraction include the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) waxing lyrical on the watercress beds that I never realised I was looking at in that lovely view of Salisbury cathedral. To him, I therefore say, "Thank you for the memory." I was not so convinced by the golf course lobby. Given that I do not play golf myself, I did not shed too many tears about the sustainability of golf courses during our consideration of the sustainability argument.
      Another lasting memory was my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Diana Organ) telling us about the dry junior urinals that she had come across in a recently built school in her constituency. She asked us to spread the message, and I am doing so right now. But the funniest moment in Committee proceedings occurred when, as people were thinking about nothing in particular, the Clerk suddenly stood up and shouted, "Rats in the sewers!" I thought, "When? Now? Is a bubonic plague epidemic about to spread in London?" The shout was reminiscent of how the doormen shout the Divisions, and it surprised us all. It was a funny moment in the middle of such serious business. I congratulate those Members who promoted the adoption of private sewers. I never realised that there were so many private sewers throughout Britain. I can tell the Government that I have a lot of private street works, as well, which I shall be flagging up before too long.
      To be serious for a moment, I asked the Whips if I could participate in this Bill because of the children in my constituency who suffer from bad dental health—an issue that the Minister mentioned today that was also mentioned in Committee. I said that I was ashamed to hear Bolton being mentioned so frequently in connection with bad dental health. I shall not spell out the statistics, but they are terrible. I wanted to participate in the Committee and to see the Bill through, as we shall shortly do, because the children in my constituency are suffering badly. They have no vote, and no knowledge of the health promotions that their households should be aware of.
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      I am delighted that the Lords supported the Bill by a ratio of 3:1, that the Committee supported it by a ratio of 14:6, and that there has been such a substantial majority across the political divide. It was nice to see people voting on the issue, rather than on its politics. I offer my thanks on behalf of the young children in my constituency, particularly those aged five and under. Depending on what the strategic health authorities and local authorities now decide, they could benefit from this important step forward.
      I repeat that it has been a pleasure to serve on the Bill, and I congratulate all those who made such an important contribution to it.
      9.43 pm
      Norman Baker: I, too, thank those who were involved in the Bill. In particular, I thank the Minister for his generous response to the amendments—a response that was generous in the tone that he adopted rather than in the outcome. Still, that was a bitter pill with a sweetener attached. I also thank the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin), who approached the Bill very constructively. I congratulate him on his promotion to the post of shadow Secretary of State for Wales. It is good to know that, sometimes, the good guys get a lift up in this place, as well as the bad guys.
      Having said nice things, I shall be slightly critical of the Bill for a moment. As we know, it was essentially a re-hash of what was dropped from the Utilities Bill, which shows that it had 2000 stamped all over it, rather than 2003. In the three years since then. the opportunity to move on has not been taken. The Bill totally failed to incorporate the water framework directive. In Committee, that was the directive that dared not speak its name. The Minister said that the Government had other ways of dealing with that matter but Scotland has a much better Bill as a consequence of the way in which matters are approached north of the border.
      The Bill does not deal with the serious issue of water pricing, although Liberal Democrats did their best to raise it by referring to metering and to ironing out the differences in prices across the country. The Bill does not deal with water debt and only in passing with water efficiency. It does not deal with least-cost planning but it deals with fluoride, which is a health issue. It is interesting that the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Miss Johnson) insisted that fluoride was not a medicine, but went on to set out the medicinal benefits that would result from adding fluoride to water—some mistake, surely.
      The Bill is good as far as it goes. It does not go that far, but it goes some distance and should be welcomed on that basis. I hope that the Under-Secretary is listening, because I am now being nice about the Bill. It advances the cause of the environment through its abstraction proposals and it introduces a duty on public authorities to conserve water. It deals with private sewers, an issue that Members on both sides have been keen to raise, and with strengthening the consumer voice. There are definite plusses with the Bill and that is why we voted for it on Second Reading. We shall do so again tonight in the unlikely event that there is a Division.
      As with the Waste Emissions Trading Bill, my regret is not about what is in the Bill but what is not in it. It is a missed opportunity; we could have gone much further.

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      When the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs gets slots for legislation—that does not happen often because the Home Office corrals most of them—let us hope that it will take the opportunity to introduce comprehensive Bills rather than Bills that go only some part of the way, even if it is in the right direction.
      9.46 pm
      Stephen Hesford: I have sat for eight hours on Second Reading and Report in an attempt to make a few points about fluoridation, so I hope that I can ask the House's indulgence to make one or two more points on that issue.
      I congratulate the Government on introducing the Bill. It is long overdue. The unfortunate consequence of inadequate legislation in 1985 caused severe distress to many inner-city areas that will benefit from this measure if a strategic health authority feels it right to go to consultation and ask its local population whether they want their water fluoridated.
      I draw attention to the York review that took place in 2000 and the Medical Research Council report of 2001–02. The Government set them up to look at the issue, which had become stalled when every water fluoridation application through the health authorities from about 1990 onwards was rejected by water companies for reasons that have been outlined in the House. The all-party group on primary care and public health, of which I have the honour to be secretary, thought that it was about time that the issue was revisited to consider what had happened between 2000 and the end of last year when we began to consider the issue. We organised consultation and we received written and oral statements from 17 witnesses on both sides of the argument.
      The all-party group is the only group that I know to have examined the issue in the House and to have considered it from a neutral stance. We held three oral sessions and took evidence from the 17 witnesses. We reported, in effect, to the House, and although I do not want to overstate the role of the group, it is a valuable Back-Bench body that discusses issues that sometimes do not receive the limelight that they deserve.
      When we reported in April, we came to the firm conclusion that fluoridation, as a public dental health measure, was a good thing. We said that it would be effective for the reasons that have been rehearsed today and that there was no evidence that it caused ill health. Of course, as hon. Members have said, more than 5 million people in this country currently benefit from natural and artificial fluoridation.
      Members of the group reached the firm conclusion that the civil liberties argument could be rejected if, as we believed, the yardstick of public dental health was firm. A similar consideration applies to such measures as the compulsory wearing of seat belts and crash helmets. There is a civil liberty aspect to those measures but public health or road safety considerations outweigh that disbenefit.
      Interestingly, when the group examined the MRC report and heard from the scientists who conducted the review, Dr. Harrison, who led the review, said that he believed that fluoride was safe. It was suggested earlier that there were 15 items that the review found
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      outstanding but our questioning found only one—[Interruption.] It might be suggested that this has nothing to do with the Bill, but we have just voted on fluoridation.
      The early-day motion in favour of fluoridation that was signed by 150 hon. Members has been mentioned, and the all-party group reported at about the same time that that motion was tabled. The report was sent to the then relevant Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Salford (Ms Blears), who said that it was an important contribution to the debate on fluoridation. The group made the following recommendations and I am pleased that the House has confirmed its view tonight. It said that fluoridation was a public dental health measure, that the legislation needed amending and that health bodies should carry out open, effective and transparent consultation when recommending fluoridation to their populations. It also said that the Department of Health should amend the protocol to allow water utilities to be properly indemnified. Those measures have come to pass tonight, so I am delighted to have played a part in that and that the House has accepted the all-party group's recommendations.
      9.52 pm
      Mr. Robert Key: This has been a good, short Third Reading, so I shall be brief. The Minister for the Environment was right that the Bill was one of those of which it was well worth serving on the Committee. However, we shall have to return to several matters. I look forward to returning to the water framework directive, abstraction and Crown immunity. I look forward to addressing the price of water, which must be determined by metering in the future. I look forward to tackling sewerage systems that flood into clear and clean waterways and the price that we pay for that. I would like to examine Ofwat's role in future investment in the water industry because I believe that it is obstructive. I would like much more attention to be paid to planning consent linked to sustainability when considering water and sewerage. My message tonight is that the Bill has surely taught us to stop wasting water, if nothing else.
      There is a lavatory in the No Lobby. Cold water was dripping from its tap on the evening of the Second Reading debate on 8 September. I reported that but the tap is still dripping. The House of Commons has wasted thousands of litres of water from one tap for want of a washer. It is time that we put our own house in order.
      9.54 pm
      Mr. Drew: I shall try to be as commendably brief as the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key), who, for the purposes of our deliberations in Committee, I considered an hon. Friend because we worked together to make the Bill better. Although some of us will campaign outside this place to ensure that fluoride does not get added to our drinking water, that was the one sore point in an otherwise consensual piece of legislation.
      I want to emphasise the role of flood relief. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will take that forward because it is as important as sewerage. Some of us are pleased that it is in the Bill, but other legislation also needs to be introduced. The cohesion in Committee and the importance of flood relief deserve to be mentioned.

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      As hon. Members said, we will return to other issues, but let us not underestimate the importance of flooding as a key consideration.
      9.55 pm
      Hugh Robertson: I want to say a few brief words about the Bill's effects on the horticultural sector. The Minister is aware that I have one of the few constituencies in England where fruit farming is the predominant agricultural type. Many of my constituents are deeply worried about the effect of the Bill on trickle irrigation. Their concerns centre on two things: the cost of trickle irrigation schemes and the regulatory impact of such schemes. My hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin) dealt with many of those concerns in Committee, for which I thank him. I am sure the Minister will agree that fruit farming should be supported.
      Mr. Morley: Perhaps I can give the hon. Gentleman some reassurances on trickle irrigation. When it comes to abstraction licences and costing, the Environment Agency will be structured in a way that recognises trickle irrigation as a much more efficient use of water.
      As I will not contribute to the debate further so that others may speak, I take this chance to thank Committee members. In addition, I will miss the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin), who is leaving his post as shadow spokesman on the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to become shadow spokesman on Wales. He is obviously the nearest thing the Conservatives have to a Welsh MP. I also thank the excellent officials who worked so hard in supporting the Bill and drafting amendments.
      Hugh Robertson: In which case, I simply thank the Minister for that assurance.
      9.57 pm
      Mr. Simon Thomas: I want to refer to one thing that has not been mentioned. Changes have been made to the Bill's measures, whether they be on fluoridation or private sewers, at all its parliamentary stages. I have been here four years and it is rare for that to happen. So that is a positive event to acknowledge.
      One thing that we did tonight, which we did not have an opportunity to debate but should be noted in passing, was to provide a better definition of sustainable development. We debated that in Committee. I am glad the Minister saw sense on the nonsensical initial definition of sustainable development. What is in the Bill now is far better for consumers and whatever authority is involved. That will be more important in the long term than anything else in the Bill because it sets down the principles, which are more vital than the details. If we get the mindset right, the details will follow. The Bill is important for getting the mindset right.
      9.58 pm
      Mr. Redwood: I remain disappointed by the Bill. It will not tackle the problem of rising water tables under many of our big cities. If more competition were introduced, more companies would come forward to tap into those resources and solve two problems at once. The Bill will not solve water shortages. Indeed, it seems animated by a wish to ration and control water use rather than to tackle shortage. Again, if competition were strengthened that would go a long way to dealing with water shortages without damaging the environment. There is nothing damaging about using the water cycle more often as water makes its way from the mountains to the sea.
      I am disappointed by the flooding provisions. Many of us have had flooding problems in our constituencies and we often find that we do not get an answer because of the conflicts between the Environment Agency, the local council and the water companies. Although I understand that the Minister has worked through the Bill to tackle those issues, the solution will not be perfect. Conflicting powers remain and we will find that the three different bodies involved will deny responsibility and make it difficult for us to get the solutions that our constituents want.
      I am worried about price—
      Norman Baker: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
      Mr. Redwood: There is hardly enough time.
      We have very expensive water. Again, competition would tackle that. There is nothing in the Bill to deal with the absence of a national water grid, yet we have an embryo national water grid between the various main pipes in the regions and with the canal network. It would be good if more work were done, through the industry, to find a way to get a national water grid so that we can transfer more water more readily from the wet areas of the country to the drier areas where there are more people and rising water demand.
      Question put and agreed to.
      Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, with amendments.

  SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE
  Ordered,
  That

  (1) at the sittings on Wednesday 12th, Monday 17th, Tuesday 18th, Wednesday 19th and Thursday 20th November, the Speaker shall not adjourn the House until any Message from the Lords has been received and any Committee to draw up Reasons which has been appointed at that sitting has reported; and

  (2) from Thursday 20th November until the end of the current Session of Parliament, the Speaker shall not adjourn the House on any day on which a message from the Lords Commissioners is expected until that message has been received.—[Ms Bridget Prentice.]

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Ordered,
  That, at the sitting on Wednesday 12th November, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No.16 (Proceedings under an Act or on European Union Documents),

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  the Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motions in the name of Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer relating to Stamp Duty Land Tax not later than three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the first Motion; proceedings may continue after the moment of interruption; and the Orders of the House of 28th June 2001 and 29th October 2002 relating to deferred Divisions shall not apply. .—[Ms Bridget Prentice.]

  REGULATORY REFORM
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Order No. 18(1)(a) (Consideration of draft deregulation, etc., orders),
  That the draft Regulatory Reform (Business Tenancies)(England and Wales) Order 2003, which was laid before this House on 17th September, be approved. .—[Ms Bridget Prentice.]
  Question agreed to.
  Mr. Speaker: It may be convenient for the House to take motions 5, 6 and 7 together.

  DELEGATED LEGISLATION
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(6)(Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation),

  INVESTIGATORY POWERS
  That the draft Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Communications Data) Order 2003, which was laid before this House on 11th September, be approved.
  That the draft Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Directed Surveillance and Covert Human Intelligence Sources) Order 2003, which was laid before this House on 15th October, be approved.
  That the draft Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Intrusive Surveillance) Order 2003, which was laid before this House on 11th September, be approved.—[Ms Bridget Prentice.]
  Question agreed to.
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(6)(Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation),

  SEA FISHERIES
  That the Fishing Vessels (Decommissioning) Scheme 2003 (S.I., 2003., No. 2669), dated 14th October 2003, a copy of which was laid before this House on 16th October, be approved.—[Ms Bridget Prentice.]
  Question agreed to.
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(6)(Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation),

  POSTAL SERVICES
  That the draft Postal Services Act 2000 (Consequential Modifications) Order 2003, which was laid before this House on 14th October, be approved.—[Ms Bridget Prentice.]
  Question agreed to.

  Science and Technology
  Ordered,
  That Mr David Heath be discharged from the Science and Technology Committee and Dr Evan Harris be added.—[Mr. Mc William.]

  OFFICE OF THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER
  Ordered,
  That Dr John Pugh be discharged from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister: Housing, Planning, Local Government and the Regions Committee and Mr Adrian Sanders be added.—[Mr. McWilliam.]

  Ordered,
  That Tom Brake be discharged from the Transport Committee and Mr Paul Marsden be added.—[Mr. Mc William.]

  Dementia
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Ms Bridget Prentice.]
  10.2 pm
  Mr. Tony McWalter: As often happens with Adjournment debates, constituents initiated this debate—in this case, the family of a woman with dementia. However, this issue became my preferred topic for a debate not because of a constituent but because of the remarks of two Ministers, one for education and the other for local government. They made it clear that there will be continuing, welcome increases in the resources vouchsafed for education, but they also suggested that there will be a continuing squeeze on the total resources that local authorities can expect to spend. The implication of both those statements for a service that is not educational and is grossly underfunded is that it will have to persist with a resource level not very different from what it currently receives. That has certainly happened with social services.
  In my area, Hertfordshire, because, ironically, improving prosperity has resulted in a boom in house and land prices, the prospect of a person with dementia getting the package of care that they need is no different from what it was when the Government took office in 1997. The closure of care homes, as well as full employment and the need for people to earn more money than would normally be paid to someone working with dementia patients, mean that it is difficult indeed to find staff to look after people in residential homes. I know that the Government's good intentions have never been in question, and there have been many initiatives designed to repair one bit of the system or another. The national service framework for older people, for instance, published in 2001 and regularly updated, shows that much new investment in health will unquestionably be directed at improving the condition of older people. However, most of the needs of someone with dementia, whether in a mild, intermediate or severe form, are categorised not as health needs but as needs for social care. The regime for social care varies throughout the country, but throughout England and Wales, while those who work in the field do so with dedication and determination, as far as sufferers and their carers are concerned, the regime is unresponsive, harsh and unyielding. One has only to contrast the stories that one hears from constituents about how wonderful the health service has been with those that one hears about the terrible problems that they have had with social services to feel that those harsh remarks are justified.
  If dementia is a cruel illness, we owe those who suffer from it and those who try to care for them a high degree of consideration and kindness. What happens instead is that, sadly, we look at these matters from an entirely economic perspective. Governments begin with the thought that an adequate system would be dreadfully expensive, and then devise ways of saving money, often without any real attention to the fact that this cruel illness is made a great deal more savage because we fail to apply normal political intelligence to it.
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  This debate has two themes: resources and morality. I shall spend more time on resources than ethics, but I want to reflect on how those with dementia and their carers are dealt with. In a sense, it does not matter whether the Government point to 50 initiatives or 500 or whether they tell me that they have increased resources by 50 per cent. or 100 per cent. What one needs to do is focus on the lived experience of those touched by the cruelty of dementia, and the experience of those who love them and want them to have their pain, bewilderment or loss attenuated. Those who love and care for those with dementia want their own exhaustion, sense of grief and loss, fear and emotional needs to be given proper consideration, but the experience of people now facing this problem in their lives is terrible in most cases. They are categorised as having not a health need, but a need for social care and support, and that system is scandalously complex, economically punitive and shamefully unresponsive.
  We know that the Government accept that the consequences of dementia could be attenuated—even the most recent communication on the national service framework for older people, dated 25 September this year, makes that point—but what comes over time and again is the need for a national strategy on dementia. To expect each local authority to cope as best it can, each with a different history and philosophy and a different resource base, is to assume that muddling through is, for the most part, the best that can be done. It is not.
  I speak of these matters with some passion because I think that, in part, people with dementia are seen only as a problem and not as having a continuing contribution to make to the quality of our lives. Perhaps I can mention my own case. Shortly after I first met a lad called Jack, then aged five, we were in a home for people with dementia where he was visiting his great aunt Ruth. I was struck by how the residents responded to him as he chatted to them and played with his toys, as well as by the way in which this child dealt with each of these people as a friend. The gentleness of Jack's mother and her consideration for her aunt Ruth were striking. It was clear that she had visited the home on many occasions and that residents looked forward to her visits. Jack's mother became my wife and he became my stepson. He is now 6 ft 2 in tall and at university, and I still think that the people in that home had a strong and positive formative influence on him, as they did on me and his mum.
  If that story sounds a little too personal, it is not unusual. Currently featured in "EastEnders"—so it must be a common occurrence—is a storyline in which Kat will finally realise that Alfie is the man for her because she can see in him a considerateness for his gran, who appears to have dementia, that her rich beau would never display—at least I hope that is how it will work out.
  People with dementia are part of society, and the way in which we treat them in part defines who we are. The home that I mentioned was a private home with very large fees, and most people could not think of being helped there. The care that most people receive is a great deal less effective than that which was given to my adopted aunt Ruth.

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  In our society, we claim to have built consideration for those with dementia into the governmental system, but of course there is no single system. Central Government delegate it to local authorities, but then say that they are expected to spend a standard amount on social services. Local authorities never treat reviewing the standard spending assessment—SSA—as a priority; most who have that responsibility spend well above their SSA for social services because they are humane, but they know that the service that they provide falls pitifully short of being able to hear a cry of pain and to respond to it appropriately.
  Dementia has many forms—some milder, some more pronounced and some extreme—but for many sufferers, and for all if they live long enough, the final solution is to live in a residential home, probably for the rest of their natural life. In Hertfordshire, the amount of money that the county council pays for someone who is reliant on public resources falls far short of what care home providers think appropriate. SPAIN—the Social Policy Ageing Information Network, a conjunction of various bodies that do work in this area—suggests that it is about £85 short per patient per week. The county has done its best, but last year, after hard negotiations, it had to agree a 7.9 per cent. increase in the rate that it pays for residential care, although the Government were, yet again, expecting a settlement well below that figure.
  Even at that level, many operators of residential homes try hard to close them down, because the land that then becomes available is so valuable that they can secure their own economic circumstances and retirement by selling it. People from Hertfordshire are living in homes hundreds of miles away in Wales, the Isle of Wight and Liverpool—although, Mr. Speaker, I have heard no cases of them being sent to Glasgow, so we are at least that humane. Splitting families up in that way has a devastating effect on people. That is the reality behind the national service framework claim that
  "There are serious shortages of suitable care homes in some areas…and few local authorities have yet developed sufficient services to help people with dementia continue living at home."
  Those are the Government's own words.
  Once someone is in a home, there is a continuing squeeze on money. If they are in a private home and have to subsidise it out of their own family resources, there is always the prospect that they may end up living so long that they have to move from a place that is comfortable, and where they have a more manageable existence, to a place where they know no one and their circumstances are decidedly less commodious. Caring families facing the prospect of their relatives having to make such a move, or people facing dire economic consequences for themselves if they try to hang on, are presented with an invidious choice.
  What makes residents of a comfortable home insecure, and what makes it so difficult for families to find a place for their relative with dementia, is the spectre of what counts as health care and what counts as social care. For example, health care assistants count, paradoxically, as social carers. A Kafkaesque labyrinth of funding complexity is involved when they are employed. That results in lengthy delays in the appropriate resources that are eventually allocated to people with the illness.
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  I have a constituent whose niece is willing to help with her social care. That includes helping her to clean herself after she has excreted. What would be the health consequences if she did not have such help? Help with the preparation of food is social care, but how costly is it to cope with the health needs of someone who is malnourished? Of course, looking after elderly people with dementia is demanding and it is not surprising that many vacancies remain unfilled, given the low wages and career development prospects.
  Sadly, one way in which people sometimes cope is through the prescription of neuroleptic drugs. The use of such drugs has escalated to the point where many people with the complaint no longer have the quality of life that my adopted aunt Ruth enjoyed nearly till her death.
  I thank the Alzheimer's Society and Andrew Chidgey for their help in preparing for the debate. I conclude by quoting the words of the Social Policy Ageing Information Network, which is composed of many of the charities that deal with such matters. Its report concludes:
  "We urge the Government to act decisively to bring social care for older people into line with the ambitious programme for the NHS. The good intentions are there, the resources to carry them through are not.
  Piecemeal measures",
  which include amounts of £300 million to patch up some parts of the system,
  "are not enough—they merely serve to divert the pressures from one part of the system to another. What is needed is a fundamental review of funding for older people across the whole spectrum of social care. Without such a boost, neither older people's needs nor the Government's modernisation objectives for the NHS"—
  let alone the needs of those with dementia—"
  can be met."
  10.17 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr. Stephen Ladyman): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. McWalter) on securing the opportunity to debate this important issue. However, I cannot possibly agree with his comments about Glasgow. Having lived there for several years, I must leap to the defence of that fair city. If that ensures that I am called promptly in future debates, that is even better.
  My hon. Friend described some of the problems that face people with dementia and their carers. Dementia can doubtless have a dramatic effect on individuals, their families and friends. My hon. Friend is right to take the matter seriously and raise it in the House.
  Debates such as this are bound to concentrate on what is going wrong. I should therefore like to start by saying that a great deal is going right as regards how we care for people with dementia. It is important to put that into context, because about 600,000 people in this country have dementia in various degrees of seriousness. When dementia is diagnosed, it is important that the individual and the family approach it as far as possible with a positive outlook. That is difficult if we give the impression that it is awful for everybody all the time.

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  Many people have a high quality of life for many years because the disease progresses relatively slowly in some cases.
  Lady Hermon: Will the Minister give way?
  Dr. Ladyman: I shall in a moment, once I have made some progress.
  Some of the care and support comes from people's families and friends, who work tirelessly to ensure that partners, parents and neighbours are cared for in the best possible way. However, the statutory and voluntary sectors provide much support. They increasingly provide a range of person-centred services. The statutory and voluntary sectors also provide a range of support services to enable carers to continue caring.
  Lady Hermon: I am most grateful to the Minister for taking this intervention. I had not intended to intervene, particularly in another hon. Member's Adjournment debate. As the wife of a dear husband who has only recently been diagnosed with Alzheimer's, I urge the Minister to consider the fact that, somehow, GPs should look much more closely at the symptoms. I went to our GP five years ago, but my dear husband was diagnosed only last year. With the greatest respect to the Minister, he can tell me how much is being done now, but early diagnosis would have helped my husband and our two children a great deal.
  Dr. Ladyman: First, may I offer my sympathy to the hon. Lady and my best wishes to her husband? I entirely agree that, if we can diagnose these conditions and begin to manage the problem much earlier, it is often much easier to deal with the matter. Early diagnosis and early intervention in long-term conditions can often be key to their proper management, and I am sorry that that has not happened in her case.
  The point that I was making was that many people who have been diagnosed with dementia can have many happy, quality years of life before the condition becomes serious. If there is a positive aspect to the situation, it is that people in the hon. Lady's situation should be aware of that. A story that I often tell is that it is reputed that, not that many years ago, one of our own Prime Ministers was diagnosed as having dementia while still living at No. 10 Downing street, and stayed there and ran the country for a year or so after he had received the diagnosis. It is important, therefore, that we put this into perspective. Such a diagnosis is not an immediate death sentence, and we need to manage the condition as positively as we possibly can. I think that that was probably the thrust of the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead. There is a great deal of quality of life to be drawn from even the most difficult of situations.
  Let me give an example. Hon. Members might have heard of the Jackdawe scheme, a specialist home care service in Nottingham for people with dementia, which recently won a health and social care award. On average, the people using the service receive 10 hours of care a week, and the care provided is in line with what
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  they need, not with a fixed menu of services. Most people with experience of the service speak of the quality of life of those who are being cared for in the project.
  As my hon. Friend intimated, most people do not want to go into a care home, and one of the things that the Government are doing is to look for alternatives to that. We have put a huge amount of money into intensive home care packages for older people, including those with dementia, and many people with dementia can be kept in their own home for a considerable period. About 27,000 more intensive home care packages are in place already.
  We can also make available the extra care model of housing, an example of which is Alexandra House in Coventry, which I visited fairly recently. I met a lady with dementia and her husband—who was in his mid-eighties—who was looking after her, living in their own flat in that extra care community. For about a decade, he had done nothing but look after his wife, and that was now taking its toll on him. Because they were living in an extra care facility, however, she was able for the first time to get the care that she needed, and he was able to take a break from caring and to start to lead his own life again. I met him on the day before he was due to start a computer course at the local adult education college, at the age of 87. He was able to leave his wife for the first time in many years because he was confident that she would be looked after when he was out of the house. There are, therefore, many alternatives to care homes, and we must explore them.
  My hon. Friend talked about the shortage of care home beds for people with dementia for whom that is the only option. He criticised the Government for leaving the responsibility for that in the hands of local councils, but the reality is that that is where we place the responsibility for judging local capacity. We cannot possibly judge it from Whitehall, because we do not know the situation in his area or in other areas around the country. We therefore put a responsibility on local councils to do that planning, and we have given them adequate resources to do so. My hon. Friend talked about the resources available in his area, and about Hertfordshire's financial position, but since 1997 we have increased by 25 per cent. over and above inflation the funding for personal social services across the country.
  My hon. Friend talked about standard spending assessments. Actually, we do not have those any more: we have formula spending shares, which reflect deprivation levels and other local issues, and determine how much each council receives. Councils are, however, supposed to top up spending on those services from council tax. That is what council tax is for—to add extra money. We give councils responsibility for judging local needs, and trust them to balance the availability and capacity of services against those needs.
  The availability of care home places is also an issue when social services departments are working out how to reduce the number of delayed discharges from acute hospitals. To enable acute beds to be used to maximum effect, Hertfordshire offers patients and their relatives the opportunity to move to the homes of their choice, but in the interim, until a vacancy becomes available, people may have to wait in homes that are not in Hemel

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  Hempstead. That, I think, is the position described by my hon. Friend, in which people find themselves outside their local communities.
  Hertfordshire has a block contract for 60 nursing home beds for people suffering from dementia, all of which are in the Hemel Hempstead area. A further 74 beds are contracted with nursing homes in Luton and Harpenden. I am assured that Luton is the furthest area in which people are placed and that, if relatives experience problems visiting the home, the council uses the carers grant to assist them. At least, that is what I am told. If my hon. Friend has evidence to the contrary, I hope he will bring it to my attention, because when councils tell me porky pies I take that seriously. There is also access to 460 residential care home beds for people suffering from dementia who do not require nursing care all—in Hertfordshire.
  As I said earlier, the local authority offers choice through the preferred choice option. When people have been placed outside Hertfordshire, they return to the Hemel Hempstead area as soon as there is a suitable vacancy. Some take up that option; others do not.
  My hon. Friend mentioned the important issue of carers. Most people with dementia are cared for at home, and we have made extensive efforts to improve support for carers. We shall more than double the money currently given to councils to support carers. It is £100 million this year, £125 million next year, and £185 million by 2006. Councils can use that money to give people short breaks from caring, and to provide them with other help.
  Let me stress a point that I always stress when speaking about this subject. We have introduced a regime enabling carers to demand their own assessments. Many carers do not realise that they can go to their local social services departments and demand assessments of their needs. I urge them all to do so.
  My hon. Friend mentioned pre-nursing care, personal care and the costs involved. In October 2001 the Government delivered their commitment to bring in free care from registered nurses for people paying all their own nursing home fees. That also applies to people receiving nursing care at home. It ends the anomaly of people having to pay for care in nursing homes that would be provided free in residential accommodation or at home.
  The Government recognise that caring for someone with any form or level of dementia often requires the involvement of a registered nurse. The complexity of the problems experienced by sufferers, including behavioural change, means that frequent review and supervision of their care may be needed to maintain
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  their safety, nutrition, personal hygiene and so forth. All those important functions are delivered as part of nursing care, and the national health service now fully funds that care.
  As for personal care—described as "social care" by my hon. Friend—in responding to the royal commission on long-term care we decided not to make personal care free for everyone. However, I can tell my hon. Friend that some or all of the personal care costs of almost seven in 10 people are met by the state.
  Those whose personal care costs are not met by the state have assets in excess of £19,500. By making that decision, we will be able to redirect an additional £1 billion a year by 2006 into services for everybody. Were we to provide free personal care for such individuals, we would not have as much money to spend on other services. The intensive home care packages, the carers grant, and the so-called access grant, which makes the services available to allow us to keep people in their own home, are all paid for by not making personal care free for people who have significant assets. If we made personal care free for such individuals, all that would disappear—we would be unable to provide that level of support, and all older people, including those with dementia and mental health problems, would suffer as a result.
  I put it to my hon. Friend and to you, Mr. Speaker—you have an interest in these matters from the Scottish perspective—that the Government in Scotland came to a different view. They decided to fund personal care for everybody. Now, more people in Scotland than in England are having to enter care homes, and in a few years that divergence will be very dramatic indeed. People in England will start to see the merit of the Government's decision, and I suspect that people in Scotland will start to ask their Government why they took the line they did.
  In addition to what I have described is something called NHS continuing care. When an individual's medical needs outweigh their personal care needs, as sometimes happens to people with dementia, they become eligible for NHS continuing care, whereby the NHS pays not only for their nursing care and personal care, but their accommodation costs. That is the third level of care, about which people who engage in this debate often forget. It is true that the ombudsman criticised—
  The motion having been made after Ten o'clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, MR. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at twenty-eight minutes to Eleven o'clock.