Commons Sitting of 3 June 2003

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
  HEALTH
  The Secretary of State was asked—
  HEALTH

    Accident and Emergency Services
    Andrew George: What advice he has given to hospital trusts in respect of measuring the 2004 accident and emergency four-hour wait targets. [116524]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Mr. David Lammy): We have issued detailed guidance on how to measure the number of patients attending accident and emergency departments, and the number of those patients seen, treated and admitted or discharged in four hours or less from arrival. All trusts with an A and E department are required to measure and report these numbers.
    Andrew George: But patients are no better off for being treated in other parts of the hospital while being taken off the four-hour wait times, and they are still being treated on trolleys. The recent BMA survey
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    showed that both before and after the monitoring period in March, A and E departments met much lower thresholds. Doctors are worried that the process is distorting clinical priorities. Does not the Minister share my concern that hospital trust administrators are finding ever more inventive ways of treating targets rather than patients?
    Mr. Lammy: No, I do not. The hon. Gentleman knows that the Royal Cornwall hospital, part of his local trust, is taking positive steps towards the A and E target and exceeding it, because of the new medical assessment unit that is in place and because of the £2 million that the trust has put in to establish a new ward. People should not wait longer than four hours in our emergency departments. His trust and trusts around the country are making tremendous progress on the target that we set for the end of 2004.
    Judy Mallaber: In an emergency, a four-hour wait for a liver to turn up for a transplant can be too long. Will my hon. Friend ask the Crown Prosecution Service to stop the prosecution against a senior ambulance driver for ferrying a liver, and will he consider the possibility of amending the law to exempt transplant vehicles?
    Mr. Lammy: I have sympathy for my hon. Friend's constituent. Clearly, the case is before the court and it would be wrong of me to comment on it at the Dispatch Box. We wait to see what determinations are made.
    Dr. Evan Harris: Is not the Minister embarrassed about the number of trusts that are forced to cheat to meet the target? Is he not concerned that the British Medical Association survey showed that a majority of respondents in A and E felt that the measures taken
    "had distorted clinical priorities … and many said that waiting times for patients with the most serious conditions had increased."

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    It was also reported that there were concerns that
    "patients were being rushed through A & E, inappropriately admitted, or transferred to the wrong department."
    Does not that make the target a sham, undermine confidence in statistics, undermine the Government's credibility, and involve the distortion of clinical priorities and resource allocation? Should he not stop it now?
    Mr. Lammy: The hon. Gentleman knows that the BMA surveyed only 30 per cent. of its members. Only the Liberal Democrats could think that that was a majority. It is not a majority, and indeed the BMA did not survey all trusts. There has been tremendous performance towards the A and E target that we set for the end of next year, because of the hard work, dedication, innovation and commitment of nurses and doctors in our A and E departments across the country. There has been investment and the target has focused and concentrated minds. The hon. Gentleman should make a distinction between the extra resources and capacity that go into trusts to achieve that milestone and those targets, and the fiddling, which is a disgraceful accusation to make of nurses and doctors across the country.
    Mr. David Hinchliffe: My hon. Friend will be aware that A and E services have been monitored over many years by community health councils, which are due to abolished at the end of August. Could he explain to the House why CHC staff received a letter this weekend indicating that they will not be made redundant within the three-month period as they expected, and what the statement that the Department is to make later this week will tell us about the future of CHCs and their replacement bodies?
    Mr. Lammy: My hon. Friend is right that by independent monitoring, CHC staff made a great contribution to our A and E departments through casualty watch. There are on-going discussions with the Association of Community Health Councils for England and Wales and CHC members about that. I shall make a statement in due course about the issues that my hon. Friend raises.
    Dr. Liam Fox: The Minister must accept that the entire monitoring exercise on A and E was a charade. The hospitals knew when they were to be measured, and they knew that they had to meet the Government's targets or they would be punished, because this is the "Targets R Us" Government. More importantly, the majority of doctors—not just those in the BMA—have said that the waiting time for those with more serious conditions went up during the monitoring period, and that operations were not scheduled at all or were cancelled. In effect, patients suffered so that Ministers could take credit. What does that say about the moral foundations of the Government's policy?
    Mr. Lammy: The milestone focuses minds. It means that hospitals across the country put in investment, resources and innovation to ensure that people are waiting no longer than four hours in our A and E departments. Does the hon. Gentleman want to return to the situation under the Tories, in which people were
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    waiting six, seven, eight or nine hours in our A and E departments? Does he want to return to trolley waits in our A and E departments lasting 24 or 36 hours? Of course not. When he quotes the BMA, he is being selective. The chairman of the BMA's A and E committee said:
    "Many of the doctors surveyed were proud of the level of service they provided in the week of monitoring"
    and said that that is clearly dependent on continuing staffing levels. That is because of the investment that the Government are putting in. The hon. Gentleman knows that and he should support our A and E doctors and nurses, not seek to undermine them.
    Dr. Fox: What fantasy is this—the idea that no patients are waiting more than four hours? Simply because the Government fiddle a survey, it does not mean that that is what is happening in the real world. In the real world, extra staff were taken on, staff were asked to work longer shifts and patients were shifted from one part of the system to another. It is not us who are undermining the staff, but the Government, with their constant interference and imposition of targets on them. The targets are now the only thing that matters, irrespective of their effects on doctors, nurses or patients in the system, and no matter what the distortions of clinical priorities. As long as Ministers are kept happy, that is the main thing. We have seen the waiting list figures fiddled and the star ratings distorted, and while the Prime Minister struggles with his 45 minutes to Armageddon and the Chancellor plays fantasy economic growth, the Secretary of State is doctoring the casualty figures. Is it any wonder that in this country it is not only Cabinet Ministers who feel that they are being duped?
    Mr. Lammy: It was a milestone set for the end of March. That is very straightforward. The target is for the end of the year, next year. There has been improvement month on month in our A and E departments since September. As to the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that that figure for the end of March was not sustainable, we saw average improvement in April as well.
    Andrew Mackinlay: Will the Minister reflect on the fact that, if we are trying to ensure sensible use of A and E services and maximise throughput, the corollary is that minor injuries units must be effective? Like many hon. Members, I am concerned that minor injuries units that are seen, rightly or wrongly, as a substitute for some withdrawn A and E services, should have the maximum availability in terms of hours. Will he please address that issue and, in particular, consider the Orsett hospital in Thurrock, where the minor injuries unit is not open to a sufficient extent in terms of compensation for my constituents?
    Mr. Lammy: I shall undertake to do that. My hon. Friend will know that minor injuries units and walk-in centres make a tremendous contribution to emergency services and should sit alongside mainstream A and E services, medical assessment units, clinical decision units and a lot of other initiatives to ensure a quick throughput in our A and E departments and across the board.

    Digital Hearing Aids
    Mr. Andrew Turner: If he will make a statement on the provision of digital hearing aids. [116525]
    The Minister of State, Department of Health (Jacqui Smith): Over the next two years, we are investing £94 million to make the benefits of digital hearing aids fitted as part of a modernised service available more widely on the NHS. All NHS hearing aid centres in England will be providing digital hearing aids by April 2005.
    Mr. Turner: I am glad to hear it, but my constituents are concerned that they have to pay for digital hearing aids, while in wealthier places on the mainland, they are available free on the NHS. Will the Minister explain why she wrote on 27 May:
    "If the services commissioned by a PCT…do not meet the needs of a particular patient, then GPs do also have freedom to refer elsewhere using the Out of Area …arrangements",
    while my health trust and PCT both confirm that the nearest pilot site is Winchester and that there is no referring outside area?
    Jacqui Smith: That is why it is important that everybody, wherever they live, gets access to digital hearing aids on the NHS. St. Mary's hospital in the hon. Gentleman's constituency is keen to take part in the modernising hearing aids scheme, and by April 2005 it will have the opportunity to do so. His constituents, along with those in the whole of England, will, for the first time, be able to get their digital hearing aids not by going private, but through the NHS.
    Mr. Tom Levitt: My hon. Friend will be aware that there are some 2 million hearing aid users and perhaps another 2 million who should be using hearing aids. Will she take it from me that to move in three or four years from a position in which no digital hearing aids were available on the NHS to one in which they are 100 per cent. available is a highly commendable achievement? Does she accept that that speed of progress is related to the training and availability of audiologists; and will she assure the House that appropriate training and recruitment of audiologists is taking place to complement the measure?
    Jacqui Smith: My hon. Friend, who has some expertise, is absolutely right. It is important that we not only introduce new hearing aids, but support that with a modernised service so that people can have the checkups and preparation that are necessary to make the best use of digital hearing aids. We can do that, first, by helping staff to work in a different way and, secondly, by increasing the number of audiologists. My hon. Friend will be pleased to know that from this September, three additional degree courses for audiologists are starting, with more to follow in coming years. Those courses, which are funded by the Department of Health, will ensure that we have the staff in place to match the extra investment that will make the service available to people using the NHS in England.
    Mr. Desmond Swayne: Given that the principal logjam is in gaining access to an NHS
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    audiologist, what progress is being made in giving private hearing aid dispensers access to the NHS contract for digital hearing aids?
    Jacqui Smith: I am interested not in encouraging people to go out of the NHS privately, but in enabling people within the NHS to get digital hearing aids for free. That is why we have started private sector pilots in Leeds and Shrewsbury that use capacity in the private sector to ensure that more NHS patients get digital hearing aids, and why we are developing a national framework contract to allow us to use capacity in the private sector for NHS patients.
    The hon. Gentleman's question highlights the difference between Members on this side of the House and those on the other side. He, like the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox), wants to encourage people to pay and get out of the NHS; we want to encourage people to get the service that they deserve in the NHS, and that is what we will do.

    Mental Health
    Dr. Ian Gibson: If he will exempt from prescription charges people with mental health problems in need of continuing care or treatment. [116526]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ms Hazel Blears): Improving services for people with mental health problems is a priority for the Government. We aim to help those who may have difficulty in paying prescription charges, rather than extending the exemption arrangements. By using a prescription prepayment certificate, no one need pay more than £32.90 for four months, or £90.40 for 12 months, for all the NHS medication that they are prescribed.
    Dr. Gibson: I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. However, what does she make of the report by Mind and Health Which? on the hidden costs of mental health, which found that 83 per cent. of people with experience of mental distress had not received the care or treatment that they needed and felt that they could not cope with life or recover, and that 59 per cent. of them were unable to afford the treatments and drugs that were on offer? Does not that represent a lack of boldness?
    Ms Blears: The report is an excellent piece of work that is based on service users' experience. The Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch (Jacqui Smith), will meet representatives from Mind tomorrow to discuss the report's findings. It covers not only medication and prescriptions, but psychological therapies, art therapy and complementary therapy.
    On access to prescriptions, if more people got pre-payment certificates they would find that a tremendous help in meeting the costs of medication. It is important to try to expand the non-drug treatments that are available in the range of mental health services. We are doing a great deal of research into therapies involving

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    psychological counselling, and to get more capacity into the system we have 1,000 people training to be able to provide those non-drug therapies within the NHS.
    Mr. David Tredinnick: Is the hon. Lady aware of the survey conducted by the Depression Alliance which showed that up to 50 per cent. of those suffering from mental problems are now turning to herbal medicines, and to aromatherapy in particular? Does she not think that it would be helpful if the certificates to which she referred could encompass herbal medicine and aromatherapy, to help those affected? Is she not also absolutely ashamed of the Food Standards Agency report on vitamin supplements, which has caused such confusion? Does she agree that many doctors prescribe and encourage patients to take vitamin supplements, and that the idea that the whole nation is on the same quality of diet is absolutely ridiculous?
    Ms Blears: The hon. Gentleman is fully aware that primary care trusts can now commission a whole range of therapies, because they have the resources at the front line of the service. He is also aware that there has to be a proper evidence base for those therapies to be provided. Continuing to raise the game of complementary practitioners is an important part of the service and increasing regulation. In the mental health field, a whole range of therapies is beginning to be evaluated, and the involvement of people with mental health problems in arts projects, for example, is proving extremely helpful in alleviating some of their problems and symptoms. So this is not just a matter of traditional complementary therapies; a whole range of alternatives is beginning to be offered under this Government to people with long-term mental health problems.
    Lynne Jones: Will my hon. Friend assure the House that the Government will take note of the Mind report's recommendations and consider implementing them? Where gaps in provision are found—perhaps research needs to be commissioned to identify them—will the Government take steps to ensure that those gaps are filled?
    Ms Blears: As I have said, the Mind report is an extremely useful piece of information based on service users' experience. I would draw Members' attention to its recommendation on ensuring that, in accordance with the Mind prescribing protocol, people with mental health problems are involved in the clinical decisions about the kind of medication that should be prescribed. Time and again, we have found that when we get expert patients involved, the medical outcomes are much better. The Mind protocol is an excellent piece of work and we shall certainly look at all the report's recommendations to see what we can take up.

    Hospital Trust Deficits (Worcestershire)
    Mr. Peter Luff: If he will make a statement on the measures being taken to tackle the deficits of (a) the Worcestershire acute hospitals trust and (b) the South Worcestershire primary care trust. [116527]
    The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. John Hutton): The West Midlands South strategic health authority is currently working with both trusts to ensure a return to financial balance at the earliest possible opportunity. This will be helped by an increase of more than 30 per cent. in the resources available to the South Worcestershire primary care trust in the period 2003 to 2006.
    Mr. Luff: I thank the Minister for that answer. Despite the increase in resources of which he speaks, however, the South Worcestershire primary care trust is consulting on a range of painful options involving cuts in the local health service, including downgrading the minor injuries unit at Evesham community hospital, and the Worcestershire Acute Hospitals NHS Trust is suffering in a real struggle to bring its large cumulative deficit back into balance. On three occasions, Ministers have refused to answer my parliamentary questions on when the hospital trust will be obliged to write off its cumulative deficit. It is important for the doctors and nurses at the hospital to know what cuts in their services might be threatened, in order to bring the deficit down. I would ask the Minister—[Interruption.]—I have asked this question three times before; this is the fourth time. When will the hospital trust be obliged to write off its cumulative deficit?
    Mr. Hutton: I understand the hon. Gentleman's concerns about the health service in his constituency. He will know that NHS regulations require trusts to restore financial balance within three years of the deficit arising, and that is the time frame within which his local trust must operate. I hope that that answer is helpful to him. As he is not being partisan today, I would like to offer him this comment in an equally non-partisan spirit. I hear his concerns about the resources going into his local NHS—we all do, on this side of the House—but I would simply ask him to reflect on the plausibility of his critique, given that his party voted against the resources going into the national health service at all. I hardly think that he is in a position to bemoan the lack of resources going into the NHS in Worcestershire when he and his hon. Friends voted against the increases.
    Mr. Michael Foster: Will my right hon. Friend conduct an urgent review of the services provided by Worcestershire acute hospitals trust and South Worcestershire primary care trust to see exactly what the impact of a 20 per cent. cut in funding would be on those services?
    Mr. Hutton: I am not sure that I need to carry out a thorough review to decide that. Such a cut would be devastating for the NHS in my hon. Friend's constituency, and the one sure way to prevent it from happening is to make sure that that lot never get returned to office.
    Dr. Richard Taylor: What response does the Minister plan to make to the highly critical

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    report from the president of the Royal College of Surgeons, which has just been issued, on the situation at the new Worcestershire hospital?
    Mr. Hutton: I have not had the chance to read the report, but, like all reports written by the president of the Royal College of Surgeons, I will study it very carefully indeed.

    Foundation Hospitals
    Mr. Chris Mullin: How candidates for membership of governing boards of foundation hospital trusts will be chosen; and if he will make a statement. [116528]
    The Secretary of State for Health (Mr. Alan Milburn): The Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill states that members of each NHS foundation trust board will be chosen by election. Direct elections will help to ensure that NHS hospitals work more closely with the local communities they serve.
    Mr. Mullin: I am grateful for that reply. Although I have no objection in principle to my right hon. Friend's plans to devolve power within the NHS, I still struggle to understand his proposals on accountability. How will candidates be selected? Will they nominate themselves or will they be chosen in some other way, as yet undecided? Is there not a danger that, if we are not careful, we shall end up with foundation hospitals that are less rather than more accountable to the public they serve? I know that that is not what he is aiming at.
    Mr. Milburn: My hon. Friend is right about that. The principle is that we want to ensure that local staff and local members of the community have a greater say in how local hospitals such as his own, which have applied to become an NHS foundation trust, are run. That must be right. If we are to achieve more responsive local services, with the best will in the world, that cannot be imposed from Whitehall or from the top down. There has to be a much greater local element of accountability than there has been to date.
    On the provision for how people will be elected, obviously, the NHS foundation trusts are a membership-based organisation and we want to ensure, as far as we can, that as wide a swathe of the local community as possible become members of NHS foundation trusts. I think that my hon. Friend is aware that the Bill provides for secret postal ballots from among the members who will be involved in direct elections to the hospital governing board. He is also aware that local members of staff will have an opportunity to be represented on the governing body, so, for the first time, local staff and local members of the community will have a direct say in how the hospital is being run.
    Mr. John Redwood: I welcome the Secretary of State saying that he wants to encourage the widest possible membership of foundation hospitals. In that spirit, will he consider extending membership to all people on the electoral roll in the relevant area? If he
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    does not want to go that far, will he tell the House what active measures he will take to promote wide membership, which many of us would welcome?
    Mr. Milburn: The right hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. It is important that the membership of NHS foundation trusts is as large as possible, representing the local community. There are a number of options, and one is to achieve that through advertising in the local media, which would encourage local people to become members. Alternative options include allowing people to register to become a member of an NHS foundation trust when they register, for example, to vote in a local election.
    Mr. Keith Bradley: Can my right hon. Friend explain this to me? If a specialist hospital such as Christie in my constituency becomes a foundation hospital, who will be the electorate for membership of it?
    Mr. Milburn: As my right hon. Friend and I have discussed previously, the position of specialist hospitals is somewhat at variance with that of most district general hospitals, for example. [Interruption.] Although the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) laughs, he is the first to say that the NHS is not a uniform service. Indeed it is not. Specialist hospitals have a very different make-up and serve a very different catchment population from district general hospitals. That is why it must be right, as the Bill does, to allow some flexibility in the governance structure.
    Specialist hospitals, in part, serve the local community, and members of the local community would have the right to become members of the NHS foundation trust. Equally, the vast majority of users of a hospital such as Christie are drawn not from the local community, but from patients and, due to the hospital's excellent services, those patients come from not only the north-west, but across the whole country. That is why the Bill gives flexibility—precisely so that patients and the public can be represented on the governing body of such organisations.
    Mr. Simon Burns: Will the Secretary of State reflect on criticism from the Labour-dominated Select Committee on Health? It said that the plans for the constituencies to elect the governing boards would be determined by unelected NHS organisations. As a result, the Committee said that the board of governors would function simply as focus groups, advisory panels or talking shops. On reflection, does the Secretary of State not think that it would have been better to be more consistent in deciding on the constituency bodies that would elect governing boards, and thus to avoid confusion, anomalies, disappointment and a system that prevents the boards from carrying out their functions effectively?
    Mr. Milburn: That sounds suspiciously like a return to precisely the centralised control and Government intervention that the hon. Member for Woodspring warned us against a moment ago. The hon. Member for

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    West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) is a member of the Select Committee as well as a Conservative Front Bencher—[HON. MEMBERS: "Surely not!] Indeed he is.
    Mr. Burns: I am multi-skilled.
    Mr. Milburn: That is one way of putting it, although I am not sure it is the most appropriate.
    Obviously we will consider the Select Committee's recommendations extremely carefully. Indeed, we are already doing so in Committee. It must be right, however, for local people to have a greater say in the running of their hospitals.
    There is a straightforward choice. We can do what we have done for so many years under both Conservative and Labour Administrations, and presume that if we parachute people on to the governing boards of NHS hospitals we will create more locally accountable services; or we can do what we propose to do, and ensure that the democratic principle, which is good enough for social services, also applies to the way in which we run our health services, so that people have an opportunity to decide who is running the local hospital.

    Primary Care (Elmet)
    Colin Burgon: What expansion of primary care facilities are (a) under way and (b) planned in the Elmet constituency. [116529]
    The Minister of State, Department of Health (Jacqui Smith): A significant amount of investment is being undertaken in East Leeds primary care trust—some of it at the Allerton Bywater and Kippax health centres in my hon. Friend's constituency, where new facilities are planned for the coming year. Other PCT investment will improve and expand primary care facilities in the area, and increase the range of services available to local people.
    Colin Burgon: I am glad to learn that, as we speak, work is in progress in my home village of Allerton Bywater. Perhaps my hon. Friend has been furnished with the list including Wetherby and Swillington, whose health centres are also to be improved. Does she agree that, although hospitals may be considered more glamorous, we should never lose sight of the fact that the facilities provided by PCTs, and those who work in them, should be a Government priority when it comes to investment?
    Jacqui Smith: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. For most of us, PCTs are the front door to the NHS, and it is from them that we and our families receive most services. It is through them that the NHS has an impact on our lives. That is why the extra £1 billion that the Government are investing in primary care over the next three years is so crucial. It will have an impact on my hon. Friend's constituency and on the constituencies of all Members, regardless of whether they voted for the money in the first place.

    Primary Care Trusts
    Mr. Andrew Stunell: If he will make a statement on NHS primary care trusts' deficits at the end of 2002–03. [116530]
    The Secretary of State for Health (Mr. Alan Milburn): Audited accounts for primary care trusts for the year 2002–03 will not be available until the autumn. Local health services, however, received an average cash increase of just under 10 per cent. for that financial year.
    Mr. Stunell: What comfort can the Secretary of State give Stockport PCT, which reports that it is rolling forward a deficit of £2.5 million into the current year and is now committed to a programme of £6 million of financial reductions in that year? My constituents face reductions in access to magnetic resonance scans, ophthalmology services and minor surgery, and my GPs face a £600,000 reduction in their prescribing budget. Will the Secretary of State ensure that Stockport's health service has the resources that it needs to restore those services to my constituents?
    Mr. Milburn: My understanding is that at the end of this financial year, Stockport primary care trust will deliver a balanced budget. Secondly, over the next three years it will receive increases of 9.13 per cent., 8.88 per cent. and 8.57 per cent. Those are cash increases for the local PCT—which, of course, is a lot more than the Liberal Democrats ever promised for the health service.
    Dr. Howard Stoate: The extra resources given to PCTs are very welcome indeed, and as my right hon. Friend will know, the GP contract is out for voting among GPs. That is an important part of the Government's plan for improving primary care, but I ask him to reassure my GP colleagues that the GP contract really is a step forward in improving recruitment and retention, and to ensure that the extra resources given to PCTs really will find their way through to GP surgeries. The worry remains that some of the money given to PCTs never gets as far as it should, and that GPs and their patients do not get the benefit that they ought to.
    Mr. Milburn: My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, and I know from my discussions with GPs and primary care organisations that this issue is a real cause of concern for them. However, there are guarantees that the money will get through—presuming, of course, that GPs decide to vote yes in a ballot that the British Medical Association will be holding. My hon. Friend will be aware that the new contract negotiated between the NHS Confederation and the BMA represents a real step forward not just for GPs but for NHS patients—not least because it guarantees a 33 per cent. increase in funding for primary care services. Such funding is long overdue and will make a real difference to GP surgeries throughout the country.
    Dr. Andrew Murrison: The Secretary of State will know that many of these debts and deficits are the result of past mismanagement by a small number of

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    NHS trusts and health authorities. Does he think that the burden of that should be borne by local service users or spread more evenly over the whole of the NHS?
    Mr. Milburn: The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. As he is aware, the way out of the financial difficulties that arose in his own area, for example, was for it to borrow NHS resources from other areas that underspent on their budgets in a particular year, so it cannot be right simply to wipe the slate clean, thereby penalising those areas that have managed their budgets properly. We need the right incentives in place to ensure that, in all parts of the country, financial management is always given the priority that it deserves. Equally, as the hon. Gentleman is aware, we are making extra resources available, through the NHS bank, to areas such as Avon, Surrey, Sussex, Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire, in which particular financial difficulties have arisen.
    Fiona Mactaggart: Has the Secretary of State had a chance to read the letter from Dr. Neil Coleman of the Avenue Medical Centre, in Slough, a copy of which I sent to him? Dr. Coleman says that it would be possible to state that if the new contract can work in his practice, with high disease prevalence, it can work in any practice throughout the country. He also volunteers the Avenue as a pilot programme for the new contract. Could the Secretary of State spread this enthusiasm to other areas, in order to develop the contract?
    Mr. Milburn: I will do my best. Although there has been controversy about the new contract, when GPs see the detail they will understand how they will benefit. Of course, their surgeries will benefit and there will be additional financial investment, but like most people working in the national health service, family doctors are after an improvement in services to patients. Crucially, that is precisely what this contract offers.

    MRI Scans
    Dr. Vincent Cable: If he will make a statement on waiting times for MRI scans. [116531]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ms Hazel Blears): A patient's clinical condition will determine how long they may have to wait for a scan. Emergency cases need to be seen immediately; other cases will be carried out as quickly as possible, depending on the clinical priority of all patients waiting to be scanned.
    Dr. Cable: In my local district general hospital there are 800 sick people, all of whom have been waiting for more than eight months for a diagnostic scan. How much credibility does the Minister attach to the staff's explanation that although early diagnosis is crucial in avoiding life-threatening diseases, it is given low priority by health service administrators because such diagnosis means more patients, longer waiting lists and missed targets? Will she investigate this potentially serious distortion of clinical priorities?
    Ms Blears: Early diagnosis and early treatment are top priorities for the Government, because it has been shown that they result in much better health outcomes for patients. That means increasing capacity, and I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the New Opportunities Fund has provided for 57 extra MRI scanners and cancer plan funding for 50 extra MRI scanners and 50 CT scanners—a vast improvement in the amount of modern equipment in our NHS, which will enable many more scans to be carried out. In 2001–02, the last year for which figures are available, an extra 73,000 scans were carried out in this country to secure early diagnosis and much better treatment. Capacity is improving, and the hon. Gentleman's local hospital was provided with a new CT scanner in April this year, which should go some way towards improving the local position.
    Mr. Bill O'Brien: I thank my hon. Friend for her advice and for outlining an interesting programme to the House. However, I know of patients in my constituency who are diagnosed early, but for whom it takes months rather than weeks to have the MRI scan. Is she satisfied that the equipment is being used to its full advantage, and if not, will she ensure that it is?
    Ms Blears: My hon. Friend makes an important point. As well as making more equipment available, we also need trained and qualified staff to operate it, and we have increased the number of radiotherapists in training by 55 per cent. We are also working on programmes to enable assistant and advanced practitioners to carry out procedures that were previously carried out only by radiologists. A report published today on pilot programmes carried out across the country shows that radiographers can extend their skills and make a real contribution to shortening waiting times for patients, which is so important.
    Tim Loughton: Ninety-five per cent. of patients attending hospitals for scans require diagnostic imaging services that are delivered by radiographers. However, last year the Audit Commission found that 250,000 patients had to wait up to five months for MRI scans, with an estimated national shortage of 5,000 radiographers. Since then, the Royal College of Radiologists believes that the position has deteriorated. Given that new recruits are simply not entering the profession, that too many radiologists are leaving early and that the Society of Radiographers has just become the first health service union to vote against "Agenda for Change", which would have meant a working year that was three weeks longer without extra pay, how on earth is the Minister going to meet her new recruitment targets by 2004 and bring down waiting times for scans without counting it as yet another top priority?
    Ms Blears: The hon. Gentleman has a cheek, in view of the cuts in training places—not just for radiographers, but for GPs, doctors, nurses and a whole range of services—that took place under the Conservative Government. We are not only turning around those cuts but securing growth in the service.

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    Radiotherapy training places are now up by 55 per cent. from 1997 levels. Furthermore, radiographers are welcoming the new ways in which they can extend their skills. [Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman listens to the information that I am providing, he might learn something. I urge him to read, in detail, the report on radiography published today, which shows that projects on skills mix have enabled advanced practitioners to interpret X-rays. They can now put the markers on the X-rays, which identify where breast lumps are, and other practitioners can carry out basic radiotherapy. It is not just about increasing capacity, but reforming and redesigning how the service works, using imagination and creativity, which the hon. Gentleman lacks.
    Dr. Brian Iddon: Is not one way of improving services that require expensive machinery such as MRI scanners to extend the hours of operation, assuming that we can secure the staff to carry out those tasks?
    Ms Blears: As usual, my hon. Friend makes a good, practical, down-to-earth and common-sense suggestion. The Audit Commission found that the majority of machines were being used for more than 10 hours a day, but we can do much more to achieve round-the-clock working. Through "Agenda for Change" and the changes to the pay system for consultants, we need to ensure that we have flexibility in the system so that we can make maximum use of our theatres, diagnostic equipment and the new investment that the Government are putting in to the national health service.

    Respite Care
    Rev. Martin Smyth: What assessment he has made of the need for greater provision of respite care. [116532]
    The Minister of State, Department of Health (Jacqui Smith): Carers make an enormous contribution to our country and to those for whom they care. We have supported carers through new legislation and by increasing funding to provide support and services. In particular, the carers grant will more than double to £185 million by 2006. That will provide 130,000 more short breaks for carers.
    Rev. Martin Smyth: I thank the Minister for that answer, but does she agree with Mencap that those who care for young people—who may need more attention as they grow older—need more help in the form of respite care? Will she try to assess the unmet need and also talk to ministerial colleagues in Northern Ireland about the situation there?
    Jacqui Smith: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I am aware of Mencap's work, and it is partly why this year the learning disability task force—on which Mencap works with us, in the person of its chief executive, who plays an important role—has been asked, along with the implementation team that
    16
    works to develop the points set out in "Valuing People", to concentrate on how we can ensure that the general progress that we are making for carers includes those caring for people with learning disabilities. They, too, need access to the better services and deserve the support that can be provided.
    David Taylor: The hospice movement provides terminal and day care, as well as the respite care to which the question refers. Have the Government moved closer to the commitment by successive Governments to match the amount raised by voluntary funding with contributions from the taxpayer? Many adult hospices are struggling. Staunton Harold hospice in north-west Leicestershire closed some months ago, and it was a major provider of respite care for that area and for south Derbyshire.
    Jacqui Smith: I strongly agree with my hon. Friend about the important role that hospices play in respite care. That is why we have increased funding for palliative care, through NHS funding, by an unprecedented amount. We have also ensured that when the money goes into the system—the extra £50 million, for example—it gets through to benefit those who provide that important service in hospices and more widely through palliative care.
    Richard Younger-Ross: What is the Minister doing to make carers aware of the provision of respite care, so that they can take advantage of it? What education is she providing about carers assessments, which ensure that their needs are met?
    Jacqui Smith: The hon. Gentleman will know that under the Carers and Disabled Children Act 2000 carers can receive an assessment of their needs. He makes an important point about the need to provide better information. We support Carers UK financially, to help it to run its helpline. We also support the learning disability helpline, alongside Mencap, to which about a quarter of the callers are carers. We also support some innovative ways of reaching carers, including the ring-around carers scheme, which uses telephone conferencing to ensure that carers are aware of their new rights to assessments and their ability to access some of the increasing investment that is being made to support them.
    Mr. Kevin Hughes: Millions of people care for their relatives and friends 24 hours a day, seven days a week and 52 weeks a year. They save the state millions, if not billions, of pounds, and ask for little in return. Does the Minister agree that the least that we can do is to provide respite care for those carers at the time that they deem that they need it?
    Jacqui Smith: My hon. Friend makes a very important point. He is right: carers make a massive contribution to this country and to the people whom they serve. In fact, six carers out of 10 have suggested that short breaks are often their most effective support. To enable us to provide such breaks, the Government

    17
    have doubled the amount of money going through the carers grant. In addition, we must make sure that the provision is more flexible. That is why we issued regulations—I think just last week—to develop the short-break voucher scheme. It is now easier for local authorities to issue carers with vouchers for their breaks, so that carers can take breaks at times, and with providers, that are more flexible and useful for them. However, my hon. Friend is right. The Government will do all that we can to support carers and the vital work that they do in our communities.

    GP Contracts
    Mrs. Cheryl Gillan: When he expects the new GP contract to come into force. [116533]
    Mr. Andrew Lansley: If he will make a statement on the contract for GPs. [116536]
    The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. John Hutton): The general practitioners committee of the BMA is currently balloting GPs on the new general medical services contract. Subject to approval and the passage of the necessary legislation, we hope to begin implementation of the new contract next year. The new contract will bring significant benefits to both doctors and NHS patients, by rewarding improvements in care and by widening the available range of primary care-based services. The new contract will also mean that expenditure on primary care will rise from £6.1 billion this year to £8 billion by 2006.
    Mrs. Gillan: I thank the Minister for that answer, but will he admit to the House that negotiations on the GP contract have been a complete and utter shambles? Last year, 66 per cent. of GPs threatened to resign if a new contract was not negotiated successfully, and the Minister was able to ensure that the BMA would ballot members only by inserting a minimum practice guarantee. How long will that guarantee be in place, and who will decide when it is no longer necessary?
    Mr. Hutton: No, the negotiations have not been a shambles. The contract was negotiated by two parties, the BMA and the NHS Confederation. The result has been a good deal for GPs and for NHS patients. I hope that the hon. Lady will join me in urging GPs to endorse the contract, because of the significant benefits that it will bring. We have made it clear that there will be no time limit on the minimum practice guarantee. It is not part of the new arrangements that any practice should lose out financially. Quite the opposite: there are significant financial benefits for GPs, and reciprocal benefits for patients. The hon. Lady should exhibit her usual good grace and welcome what is an important development for primary care, in her constituency and in the NHS as a whole.
    Mr. Lansley: The Minister will know that the ballot result is expected on 20 June, and that the Standing Committee considering the Health and Social Care Bill will conclude proceedings on 19 June. If he intends to use the Bill as a vehicle for primary legislation to
    18
    implement the contract, will he extend the time available in Committee, so that the provisions can be scrutinised by a Committee of this House, rather than only in another place?
    Mr. Hutton: I wish that it was in my gift to extend the time available for consideration in Committee, but it is not. The Bill has to be reported by 19 June. With the best will in the world, there are some things that I cannot do, and unfortunately turning back time is one of them. I wish that I could do so. Given that the House has decided that the Bill must come out of Committee on 19 June, and that the ballot result will not be in until 23 June, in fact, our only opportunity to debate the measures and table amendments will come when the Bill returns on Report. That is what we intend to do.
    Mr. Peter Pike: Will my right hon. Friend accept that some GPs in Burnley believe that they need better premises to take full advantage of the new contract and to offer the full range of primary care treatment, as the Government intend? Does he accept that there is a shortage of funds, and that some GPs are being told that they will have to wait five or six years before they can offer that range of treatment? Will he perhaps meet me to discuss the possibility that additional money might be made available to get the contract accepted and to meet the Government's treatment requirements?
    Mr. Hutton: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I will certainly look into the situation in Burnley that he described. However, I echo the point made earlier by my hon. Friend the Minister of State: because of the additional investment that we are making available to the NHS, the primary care estate—the building blocks in primary care—will receive an additional £1 billion of investment over the next few years. That will help to transform many GP surgeries up and down the country. I agree with my hon. Friend—if that is what his GPs are saying—that if we want to provide the best possible quality primary care services, we must provide the best possible primary care buildings, and that is precisely what the Government are doing.
    Chris Grayling: The Minister will be aware that he has already been accused by GPs of meddling in the negotiations over the proposed contracts and that his intervention at the time of the emergency conference in May was reported to have swung a crucial vote against the negotiating teams, so now that the ballot is actually going ahead, will he confirm whether he is planning to intervene again to impose the contract unilaterally if the vote goes against?
    Mr. Hutton: The hon. Gentleman has waited 55 minutes to ask what is probably the most puerile question that we have heard from the Opposition Front Bench. I made no such interventions. He should not believe everything that he reads in the press, for heaven's sake.

    Hospital Service Providers
    Mr. Jim Cousins: What steps he is taking to speed up financial flows in the NHS to hospital service providers. [116534]
    The Secretary of State for Health (Mr. Alan Milburn): As my hon. Friend is aware, local primary care trusts now control 75 per cent. of the total NHS budget. In deciding where to spend that resource, it is important that PCTs do so in partnership with local hospitals and strategic health authorities. To that end, local negotiations over this year's budgets in most parts of the country are now complete.
    Mr. Cousins: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that answer, but he will of course understand that specialist hospitals, such as those in the north-east in Newcastle and Sunderland and on Teesside, may have dealings with up to 20 primary care organisations, some of which are quite slow in paying, with resulting problems; and that every improvement in those specialist services may have to be signed up to by up to 20 of those primary care organisations, with all sorts of slowing down of innovation and improvement. What can he say to hospitals in that position, which want to move on and to be sure that the money for service improvements is there?
    Mr. Milburn: My hon. Friend is well aware, not least from his own close working relationship with the health service in Newcastle, that specialist hospital trusts, such as the Freeman and the Royal Victoria Infirmary in Newcastle, provide a range of services, which are, as he rightly says, not just district general hospital services, but more specialist tertiary services as well. Inevitably, therefore, those hospitals are in negotiation with a number of primary care trusts. In such situations, what normally happens is that one local PCT has the responsibility of becoming the lead commissioner and acts on behalf of a number of local PCTs. If that is not happening in my hon. Friend's area, I shall gladly look into the matter. He might also like to be aware that the NHS bank will shortly be conducting a review of how money flows around the system, precisely to ensure, first, that it gets to the front line, and secondly, that it does so in a timely way that does not jeopardise the provision of front-line patient services.
    Mr. Henry Bellingham: Does the Secretary of State agree that one of the keys to speeding up financial flows is the balance between management and front-line staff? Can he confirm his Department's figures showing that the number of qualified nurses in the NHS is 266,170? Is it true that, for the first time, that number has been overtaken by the 269,080 managers and support staff'?
    Mr. Milburn: I think that the hon. Gentleman is trying to count as managers and bureaucrats people in professions such as painters, decorators, gardeners and cleaners. With the best will in the world, not even he could believe that those people are bureaucrats.

    Health Care Assistants
    Mr. Alistair Carmichael: If he will make a statement on the regulation of health care assistants. [116535]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Mr. David Lammy): The Government are committed to consult on proposals to regulate support workers, and that consultation will be taking place in the near future. The consultation will identify those categories of staff whose clinical practice needs to be of a high standard in order to ensure patient safety. The proposals cover a range of options, including full statutory regulation of those staff, and the Government will decide on the way forward in the light of responses to the consultation.
    Mr. Carmichael: I thank the Minister for that answer, but I view the lack of urgency with which the Government are approaching the question as quite disappointing. Does he not accept that the increased use of such assistants without proper regulation exposes patients to risk and assistants to exploitation?
    Mr. Lammy: Regulation of health care workers in Scotland is a matter for the devolved Parliament, but generally, we will be making proposals. It is right that we think carefully about them when other issues, such as "Agenda for Change", are continuing in the rest of the United Kingdom.

    Waiting Lists
    Mr. Win Griffiths: What assessment he has made of the impact of treating patients from Wales on English waiting lists. [116537]
    The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. John Hutton): The provision of NHS services to Welsh patients by English NHS trusts is a matter for local NHS commissioners. The maximum waiting time for English patients will be six months for in-patient treatment and three months for an out-patient appointment by 2005. The setting of targets for Welsh patients is, of course, a matter for the National Assembly for Wales.
    Mr. Griffiths: May I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply? However, I was hoping that he might have been able to tell me whether there was any capacity on the English side of the border for even more Welsh patients to be treated, given that the incidence of illness in Wales is much higher than it is in England.
    Mr. Hutton: I agree with my hon. Friend. It is obviously important that the NHS provides an integrated service across the border between Wales and England. If there is spare capacity in NHS hospitals in England, it is right and proper that NHS patients who live in Wales should have access to it when that can be agreed. In fact, that is precisely what is happening. The number of Welsh patients treated in English trusts is increasing substantially and is up from 26,000 in 2000–01 to 37,000 last year.

Points of Order
3.31 pm
Mr. Michael Ancram: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sure that you will have noticed in the recess that a number of well publicised and highly damaging allegations have been made relating to weapons of mass destruction and the intelligence information available about them. The serious suggestion is that the House has been deliberately misled. These accusations, which could not be raised in the House until today because of the recess, strike at the heart of the integrity of both the Government and our intelligence services. So damaging are they that presumably the Government would wish to take the earliest opportunity to come to the House to deal with them. I understand that the Prime Minister returned to this country at 11 o'clock this morning. Have you, M r. Speaker, received any request from him to come to the House urgently today, as he should, to clear the air on these matters?
Mr. Speaker: I understand from the Prime Minister that he will make a statement tomorrow in which the right hon. Gentleman can question him on these matters. Prime Minister's Question Time will also take place tomorrow, so the Prime Minister will come to the House tomorrow.
Mr. Eric Forth: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Can you confirm, as you have said to the House before, that were the Prime Minister to ask to make a statement at, say, 7 o'clock this evening, you would automatically grant it, following precedent? Certainly the official Opposition would be more than happy to accommodate the Prime Minister were he to make that request. However, you said that he would make a statement tomorrow, so can you clarify whether it will cover the very serious questions raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), or would the Prime Minister's statement not more likely be about the G8 summit in which case it is possible that questions about Iraq and related matters might just be out of order?
Mr. SpeakerI think that Opposition Front Bench Members are ingenious enough to be able to ask questions about Iraq, even on a statement about the G8 summit, and not be found out of order by myself.
Mr. Andrew Robathan: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: Order. Let me answer the point raised by the shadow Leader of the House. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the business on which we are about to embark is protected business, so I would not allow it to be interrupted. Therefore, we are talking about tomorrow.
Jeremy Corbyn: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Can you therefore confirm that, in the event of the Prime Minister making a statement tomorrow on the Evian summit, you will allow questions on any aspect of the Iraq conflict to follow, so that there can be full scrutiny of the Prime Minister's position on this matter?
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman can push his luck tomorrow.
Mr. Patrick McLoughlin: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You have often told us that statements should be made first to the House of Commons, not outside the House of the Commons. I do not suppose that you have had time to see that the BBC News website says, "No 10 rejects Iraq weapons inquiry". It continues:
"Downing Street has rejected growing calls for an inquiry into its pre-war claims about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction."
I do not know who this "Downing Street" is, but the person who answers for Downing Street in this House is the Prime Minister. Should we not hear from the Prime Minister rather than from spokesmen for Downing Street—the Alastair Campbells? We should hear from the Prime Minister in the House of Commons first rather than reading about things on web pages.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is correct: there are lots of people in Downing Street, but we are getting the Prime Minister from Downing Street tomorrow.
Mr. Edward Garnier: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Tomorrow is a Liberal Democrat Opposition day and although no one would be more delighted than I for them to be put to the end of the agenda, is it not important that Opposition days should be protected and not interrupted or intervened on by Government statements? Surely if Government statements can be made during Government business time, that is when they should be made. Today is a classic example of that.
Mr. Menzies Campbell: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am grateful to the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) for his anxiety about our interests, but it might serve the advantage of the House for me to say that the Liberal Democrats hope to give the House the opportunity to debate issues relating to Iraq during the Opposition day tomorrow.
Mr. Robathan: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. On 26 February, at column 272 of Hansard, I specifically asked the Foreign Secretary whether regime change was the objective of the Government's policy, which he denied. Could he perhaps be asked to come instead and answer that charge now, if the Prime Minister is too busy?
Mr. Speaker: The answer to that is no.
Mr. Henry Bellingham: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. During the mini-recess, the Health and Safety Executive produced its important and, indeed, damning report on the Potters Bar train crash. The train was on its way to my constituency and that of my right hon. Friend the Member for South-West Norfolk (Mrs. Shephard). The report needs to be discussed. I shall not be able to raise it during tomorrow's statement on the G8, so why has the Secretary of State for Transport not been asked to make a statement to the House today on that vital report?>
Mr. Speaker: I can understand the hon. Gentleman's anxiety. He is entitled to pursue that matter with the Secretary of State for Transport, and I expect that he will do that.

Fire Services Bill (Programme) (No. 2)
3.37 pm
The Minister for Local Government and the Regions (Mr. Nick Raynsford): I beg to move,
That the Order of 8th May 2003 (Fire Services Bill (Programme)) shall be varied as follows
Proceedings in Committee, on Consideration and Third Reading

1. Paragraphs 3 and 4 of the Order shall be omitted.

2. Proceedings in Committee and any proceedings on consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion five and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order.

3. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion six and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order.

The measure will amend the order of 8 May so that the House will have ample time to consider the provisions of this short Bill. The previous order did not specify the duration of proceedings in Committee, on consideration—if any—and on Third Reading, except to allow that proceedings in Committee and on consideration would be brought to an end one hour before the moment of interruption.
The Government are conscious that many hon. Members of all parties have an interest in the Bill. We therefore propose that the order of 8 May be varied so that the House may be guaranteed sufficient time to consider the Bill. The proposed variation therefore provides that proceedings in Committee and any proceedings on consideration be brought to an end five and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion for this order. At least one hour further will be allowed for proceedings on Third Reading.
3.38 pm
Mr. Philip Hammond: I am, frankly, a little mystified. The Minister's statement, when taken at face value, is very interesting but, by my calculations, we have gained precisely an extra nine minutes of debating time out of which we must take the time to debate the motion. As the Minister knows, we are not generally supportive of programme motions—we voted against motion No. 1—and I shall reiterate a couple of points.
We have said from the outset that we will support emergency legislation if it effectively removes the burden that the fire dispute is placing on our troops, ensures public safety and ensures that our emergency services are ready and able to respond to the increased threat of terrorism.
We have said that we will support not only a Bill that achieves that, but the unusual parliamentary arrangements for its consideration if the Government accept amendments that allow it to fulfil those purposes. If, however, the Bill is not an effective emergency measure of short duration to deal with the present crisis by the time that it completes its passage through this place, it cannot be justified because it is a draconian measure that gives the Secretary of State powers to impose settlements in a way that would not usually be acceptable. In addition, it goes against the grain of everything that the Government have said about devolving power and decision-making responsibility to
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local fire authorities in their attempt to reform the fire service. The Bill will recentralise on a massive scale and give the Secretary of State huge power to impose a settlement.
If the Bill itself is not justified then neither is the special parliamentary passage that is being made available for it. I hope the Minister accepts that there is a problem with taking all the remaining stages of a Bill at one sitting of the House. It is normal practice to consider the details of a Bill that need to be addressed during the Committee stage and for Opposition Members, and I suspect in this case some Labour Members, to consult outside bodies and to review what the Committee decided before it is considered further. That will clearly not be possible today because we will move straight from the Committee stage to Report or Third Reading, which places us in some difficulties.
In our opinion the special procedures to deal with the Bill are justified only if it is an emergency measure of short duration which addresses the immediate and present problem, but in those circumstances it is surely not justified to curtail the debate further by placing a time limit on it. Surely it is necessary to allow the House as much time as it needs. I will urge my hon. Friends to vote against the programme motion.
Mr. John Bercow: Has my hon. Friend noticed as I have, that no fewer than 14 of the amendments tabled for consideration in Committee have been tabled by Labour Back-Bench Members, notably the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell)? Does my hon. Friend agree that in responding to his points, it would be helpful for the Minister to say whether he has had any prior consultation with the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington?
Mr. Hammond: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that. It might be very interesting to know whether such prior consultation has taken place. I suspect from the comments that the Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister made on Second Reading and from what I recently read in the press about the relationship between Government Front-Bench spokesmen and the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), that it is unlikely that cosy fireside chats have taken place. No doubt the Minister will alert us if something is going on that we should know about.
I would be grateful if the Minister were to explain what he meant in his opening remarks. Perhaps I am missing something, but it is not obvious to me that we have gained any significant debating time.
3.44 pm
Matthew Green: Our problem with the programme motion is that it allows the Government to rush the Bill through at an unnecessarily fast pace. If the Fire Brigades Union conference accepts the settlement in about a week's time, as it may do, the Bill is unnecessary. The timing of that conference means that there is certainly more time to consider the Bill's measures than the six and a half hours allocated for the remaining stages.
The Government have indicated that if the FBU accepts the settlement on offer, they probably will not pursue the Bill further at that stage. There is therefore

25
time to consider the Bill, since the Government are clearly not trying to get it on to the statute book in time for the conference.
The Liberal Democrats will join the Conservatives in opposing the programme motion. The Bill is being pushed through at a tremendously fast rate and it is almost certain that there will not be sufficient time to consider all the groups of amendments. There are serious issues to be debated this afternoon—issues that are the subject of considerable disagreement across the House—but I am strongly of the opinion that they will not be reached.
3.45 pm
Mr. Douglas Hogg: I rise to support my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) and the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) in their opposition to the programme motion. I have several reasons, which I shall advance briefly.
First, I am bound to say that I am against programme motions per se. There is very little justification for them, and I do not believe that there is justification in the present case. One of the malign consequences of a programme motion is that it discourages participation by right hon. and hon. Members in discussion of the Bill, because they know that there will be limited time in which to speak. Frequently, they simply do not turn up, far less do they table amendments and new clauses. That is of particular importance when a Bill is taken on the Floor of the House. This is the only occasion on which the Bill will be subject to detailed scrutiny, yet because of the programme motion many right hon. and hon. Members who might otherwise have participated or made proposals for change have been discouraged from doing so.
My next point follows on from the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge. We have, of course, the theoretical option of having a Report stage. Amendments have been tabled, some of which are Government amendments. We can hope that the non-Government amendments will be carried—that is possible—but we can be sure that the Government amendments will be carried because the Whips are here to ensure that they are. Consequently, the House has the option, in theory, of having a Report stage.
I agree that some of the Government amendments are pretty trivial. Some of the non-Government amendments—mine, for example—are not, and if they were carried right hon. and hon. Members would want to have proper time to reflect on them and to take representations from outside the House before proceeding to Report. However, we are to proceed forthwith to Report and then Third Reading, concluding at 10 o'clock or thereabouts. That means that the House will not consider in detail any amendments made in Committee, or if it does it will be uninformed consideration because we have not had time to take representations from outside.
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I have a further point. I tabled three new clauses, the object of which was to prevent industrial action by fire brigade members. They were not selected. Now, as you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would not dream of complaining about that—after all, you would be the first to tell me that Mr. Speaker never gives reasons for not selecting amendments and that it would be impertinent of me to raise the point. All of that, I willingly concede. However, some might suppose that the reason my new clauses were not selected is that they lay outside the long title of the Bill—that is possible. On reflection, it might have been possible to construct the new clauses so as to bring them within the long title; they would then have been capable of being tabled on Report. However, because I learned only today, at 1 o'clock or thereabouts, that I had had the misfortune not to have had my new clauses selected, and because we are to proceed forthwith to Report, I am unable, barred, precluded, disqualified from tabling significant amendments for proper discussion by the House.
It is surely right that Members of Parliament have the opportunity on Report to consider whether or not FBU members should have a right to go on strike. However, the effect of the motion is to prevent me having an opportunity to table new clauses in a proper form. That is a lamentable betrayal of democracy and yet another example of the ill effects of the motion.
3.50 pm
Mr. Richard Shepherd: A guillotine is, of course, a denial of the rights of Members to represent their constituencies and to express their views. It is an abrogation of freedom of speech. At the heart of all this is a Government intent to exercise total control over the business of the House, as they have been doing since they first came into office. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), who spoke from the Opposition Front Bench, and with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg). Their points are true and just.
I ask the House to reflect on the fact that in this Session 23 Bills have been subject to the guillotine, or, as we call it now, a programming motion or whatever. All but three have been opposed by Opposition Members and by Labour Members on Divisions. In addition to the 23 Bills that were subject to the guillotine, 10 motions, including the one before us, were applied. Twenty-three Bills, in the short time since November, equals half the number of Bills that were guillotined by Baroness Thatcher during her time as Prime Minister.
Labour Members well know that Baroness Thatcher's guillotining of Bills, of which I was a vigorous opponent, was considered to be a major authoritarian and almost autocratic instrument of her control over the House. Yet, within six months of the start of the Session the Government have already guillotined half the number of Bills that were guillotined during 11 years. It is intolerable. That is the truth of it. One day, Labour Back Benchers will wake up and understand that there is almost no purpose in their being here if they can be denied the right to speak on matters of great importance.

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The fire service is undoubtedly one of those matters. It has given rise to what the Deputy Prime Minister insists is emergency legislation. Those are the pieces of legislation that require caution and proper examination. Yet we have the twenty-third Bill of the Session experiencing its second guillotine motion. I ask the House to consider whether that does us justice in the face of the genuine anxieties and beliefs of our constituents. The motion is intolerable and it should be opposed.
3.53 pm
Mr. Raynsford: We have heard a huge amount of largely synthetic indignation, which comes all the more curiously when it is realised that we moved the second motion as a precautionary measure, knowing that 3 June was the first day back to the House after the short recess, and that there were the possibilities of private notice questions, statements and other business, including, as we heard, several interventions in the form of points of order, that could well have taken up rather more of the time of the House. As a sensible and entirely reasonable move, which we discussed with other parties through the usual channels, we suggested that there should be arrangements to ensure that the House had a full six and a half hours to discuss six groups of amendments to a two-clause Bill.
I say to Opposition Members that, put in that context, much of the rhetoric that we have heard appears to be little more than that.
Mr. Shepherd: Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Raynsford: I will give way in a moment. I know that the hon. Gentleman has strong feelings on these matters. Before he intervenes, I put it to him that there is a world of difference between the application of a guillotine motion to a large and complex Bill, with the result that it will not receive detailed consideration, and a programme motion that is designed to ensure orderly consideration of a very short Bill that can be considered properly and fully within the time available, and that is what we are considering this afternoon.
Mr. Shepherd: It is not good enough to be quite so dismissive by speaking of a two-clause Bill. The Minister will remember that Maastricht was the subject of a two or three-clause Bill, and that that had huge ramifications. The present Bill also has ramifications. As the right hon. Gentleman well knows, it gives the state enormous powers.
Mr. Raynsford: I am only surprised that the hon. Gentleman should want to rake up in his party's psyche the uncomfortable memory of the Maastricht treaty. Many of us feel genuine sympathy for the wider issue of the need for proper time for consideration. Many of us felt unhappy about the old arrangements, under which Bills were considered at enormous length for several weeks, and then inevitably a guillotine had to be applied, or they would not have completed their passage.
28
The purpose of timetabling is to ensure that there is a proper, orderly process in which all parts of the Bill can be considered. That is what we are doing. This is a two-clause Bill. There are six groups of amendments. There is more than adequate time to consider them, and if we were not spending so much time on the programme motion, we would be able to give more time to the details of the Bill.
I offer my sympathy to the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) on his failure to prepare his three new clauses in a form that allowed them to be considered. I am sorry that he feels that he has been precluded, debarred and prevented from tabling new clauses. I think it is simply the way in which he drafted the new clauses that is to blame.
The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) knows only too well that the Bill is a short-term measure. It is not designed to be in place for long-term strategic purposes. It is necessary because of the circumstances relating to the fire dispute, which have been discussed at considerable length in previous debates in the House, many on statements from my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister. We have always made it clear that we would introduce the measure if necessary, to ensure that a line can be drawn under the dispute. That is why the Bill has been prepared. There has been close consultation with Opposition parties all the way through the process. The purpose of taking the Bill through in one sitting today has been discussed fully and does not justify the criticism levelled by the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Hammond: I am interested to hear the Minister's assertion that the Bill is to be a short-term measure. He knows that the first group of amendments is led by an amendment tabled by me and my right hon. and hon. Friends to ensure that that is the case, but I am afraid I have missed the Government amendment delivering a similar outcome, if that is the Minister's intention.
Mr. Raynsford: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman was not paying attention in the Second Reading debate when I made it clear in my winding-up speech that we would consider carefully the option for making this a time-limited Bill. We always made it clear that our intention was to introduce the measure to deal with the unhappy short-term situation existing in relation to the fire dispute. That was the reason for introducing the measure and the reason for timetabling it. I hope that hon. Members will accept that there is good reason.
Mr. Bercow: I am afraid that that sort of rhetorical blather does not meet the needs of the case. If it is the right hon. Gentleman's intention to table the measure only for use in the short term, and in light of the existence of the precedent of the Electronic Communications Act 2000 introduced by his Government, can he explain the absence from the Bill of a sunset clause?
Mr. Raynsford: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman, who knows a great deal about rhetorical blather, has not had sufficient time to read the Order Paper and to realise that in the next group of amendments we will consider that very issue. I suggest that we would do the House a

29
service if we now brought an end to proceedings on the programme motion and proceeded to the substantive matters. I urge the House to support the motion.
Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 284, Noes 184.

Division No. 213]

[3:59 pm

AYES

Ainger, Nick

Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

Alexander, Douglas

Davidson, Ian

Allen, Graham

Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)

Dean, Mrs Janet

Denham, rh John

Atherton, Ms Candy

Dhanda, Parmjit

Atkins, Charlotte

Dismore, Andrew

Bailey, Adrian

Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

Baird, Vera

Dobson, rh Frank

Battle, John

Donohoe, Brian H.

Bayley, Hugh

Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

Beard, Nigel

Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

Begg, Miss Anne

Edwards, Huw

Bell, Stuart

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Benn, Hilary

Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

Bennett, Andrew

Farrelly, Paul

Benton, Joe (Bootle)

Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

Berry, Roger

Fisher, Mark

Best, Harold

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Belts, Clive

Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

Blackman, Liz

Flint, Caroline

Boateng, rh Paul

Follett, Barbara

Borrow, David

Foster, Michael (Worcester)

Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye

Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

Bradshaw, Ben

Foulkes, rh George

Brennan, Kevin

Francis, Dr. Hywel

Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

Gardiner, Barry

Browne, Desmond

Gerrard, Neil

Bryant, Chris

Gibson, Dr. Ian

Buck, Ms Karen

Gilroy, Linda

Burden, Richard

Goggins, Paul

Burgon, Colin

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Burnham, Andy

Grogan, John

Cairns, David

Hain, rh Peter

Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

Caplin, Ivor

Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

Casale, Roger

Hanson, David

Caton, Martin

Harman, rh Ms Harriet

Challen, Colin

Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)

Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

Healey, John

Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

Hendrick, Mark

Hepburn, Stephen

Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

Hesford, Stephen

Coaker, Vernon

Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia

Coffey, Ms Ann

Hill, Keith (Streatham)

Coleman, Iain

Hinchliffe, David

Colman, Tony

Hope, Phil (Corby)

Connarty, Michael

Hopkins, Kelvin

Cooper, Yvette

Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

Corston, Jean

Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)

Cousins, Jim

Cranston, Ross

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

Crausby, David

Humble, Mrs Joan

Cruddas, Jon

Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

Cummings, John

Hutton, rh John

Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

Iddon, Dr. Brian

Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

Ingram, rh Adam

Dalyell, Tam

Irranca-Davies, Huw

30

Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate

Olner, Bill

O'Neill, Martin

Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

Organ, Diana

Jamieson, David

Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

Jenkins, Brian

Owen, Albert

Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

Palmer, Dr. Nick

Picking, Anne

Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

Pickthall, Colin

Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

Pike, Peter (Burnley)

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

Plaskitt, James

Jowell, rh Tessa

Pollard, Kerry

Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

Keen, Ann (Brentford)

Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

Kemp, Fraser

Pound, Stephen

Khabra, Piara S.

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E

Kilfoyle, Peter

King, Andy (Rugby)

Primarolo, rh Dawn

King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow

Prosser, Gwyn

Purchase, Ken

Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

Purnell, James

Kumar, Dr. Ashok

Quin, rh Joyce

Lammy, David

Quinn, Lawrie

Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

Rammell, Bill

Lazarowicz, Mark

Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

Lepper, David

Raynsford, rh Nick

Leslie, Christopher

Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill

Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland

Linton, Martin

Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

Roche, Mrs Barbara

Love, Andrew

Rooney, Terry

Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Luke, Iain (Dundee E)

Ruane, Chris

Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

Ruddock, Joan

McAvoy, Thomas

Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester

McCabe, Stephen

McCartney, rh Ian

Savidge, Malcolm

McDonagh, Siobhain

Sawford, Phil

MacDonald, Calum

Sedgemore, Brian

MacDougall, John

Shaw, Jonathan

McFall, John

Sheerman, Barry

McGuire, Mrs Anne

Sheridan, Jim

McIsaac, Shona

Shipley, Ms Debra

McKechin, Ann

Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

Mackinlay, Andrew

Smith, Angela (Basildon)

McNulty, Tony

Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)

Mactaggart, Fiona

McWalter, Tony

Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

McWilliam, John

Smith, John (Glamorgan)

Mallaber, Judy

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

Soley, Clive

Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

Southworth, Helen

Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

Spellar, rh John

Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston

Squire, Rachel

Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

Martlew, Eric

Steinberg, Gerry

Meacher, rh Michael

Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

Merron, Gillian

Stinchcombe, Paul

Michael, rh Alun

Stoate, Dr. Howard

Milburn, rh Alan

Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

Miliband, David

Stringer, Graham

Miller, Andrew

Sutcliffe, Gerry

Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

Mole, Chris

Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

Moonie, Dr. Lewis

Taylor, David (NW Leics)

Moran, Margaret

Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

Morgan, Julie

Timms, Stephen

Morley, Elliot

Tipping, Paddy

Morris, rh Estelle

Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

Mountford, Kali

Trickett, Jon

Mudie, George

Truswell, Paul

Mullin, Chris

Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

Munn, Ms Meg

Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)

Naysmith, Dr. Doug

Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

Twigg, Derek (Halton)

O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

31

Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C

Walley, Ms Joan

Ward, Claire

Woodward, Shaun

Watts, David

Woolas, Phil

White, Brian

Worthington, Tony

Whitehead, Dr. Alan

Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

Wicks, Malcolm

Wright, David (Telford)

Wright, Tony (Cannock)

Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W

Williams, Betty (Conwy)

Tellers for the Ayes:

Wills, Michael

Joan Ryan and

Winnick, David

Mr. Jim Murphy

NOES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

Cotter, Brian

Allan, Richard

Curry, rh David

Amess, David

Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)

Ancram, rh Michael

Arbuthnot, rh James

Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Bacon, Richard

Djanogly, Jonathan

Baker, Norman

Donaldson, Jeffrey M.

Baldry, Tony

Doughty, Sue

Barker, Gregory

Duncan, Alan (Rutland)

Baron, John (Billericay)

Evans, Nigel

Barrett, John

Ewing, Annabelle

Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)

Fallen, Michael

Beith, rh A. J.

Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)

Bellingham, Henry

Bercow, John

Flight, Howard

Beresford, Sir Paul

Forth, rh Eric

Blunt, Crispin

Foster, Don (Bath)

Boswell, Tim

Fox, Dr. Liam

Brady, Graham

Francois, Mark

Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

Gale, Roger (N Thanet)

Brazier, Julian

Garnier, Edward

Breed, Colin

George, Andrew (St. Ives)

Brooke, Mrs Annette L

Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

Browning, Mrs Angela

Gidley, Sandra

Burnett, John

Goodman. Paul

Burns, Simon

Gray, James (N Wilts)

Burnside, David

Grayling, Chris

Burt, Alistair

Green, Damian (Ashford)

Butterfill, John

Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

Cable, Dr. Vincent

Grieve, Dominic

Calton, Mrs Patsy

Gummer, rh John

Cameron, David

Hague, rh William

Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)

Hammond, Philip

Carmichael, Alistair

Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)

Cash, William

Chidgey, David

Hawkins, Nick

Chope, Christopher

Heath, David

Clappison, James

Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Hendry, Charles

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Hermon, Lady

Collins, Tim

Hogg, rh Douglas

Conway, Derek

Holmes, Paul

Cormack, Sir Patrick

Horam, John (Orpington)

32

Howard, rh Michael

Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

Roe, Mrs Marion

Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

Ruffley, David

Jack, rh Michael

Russell, Bob (Colchester)

Jenkin, Bernard

Salmond, Alex

Johnson, Boris (Henley)

Sanders, Adrian

Keetch, Paul

Sayeed, Jonathan

Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)

Selous, Andrew

Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian

Key, Robert (Salisbury)

Shepherd, Richard

Laing, Mrs Eleanor

Simmonds, Mark

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

Lamb, Norman

Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

Lansley, Andrew

Laws, David (Yeovil)

Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

Letwin, rh Oliver

Soames, Nicholas

Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)

Spelman, Mrs Caroline

Liddell-Grainger, Ian

spicer, sir Michael

Lidington, David

Spink, Bob (Castle Point)

Llwyd, Elfyn

Spring, Richard

Loughton, Tim

Stanley, rh Sir John

Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

Steen, Anthony

McIntosh, Miss Anne

Streeter, Gary

Maclean, rh David

Stunell, Andrew

McLoughlin, Patrick

Swayne, Desmond

Maples, John

Syms, Robert

Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)

Tapsell, Sir Peter

Taylor, Ian (Esher)

Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

Taylor, John (Solihull)

Mercer Patrick

Taylor, Dr Richard (Wyre F)

Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

Tredinnick, David

Trimble rh David

Moore, Michael

Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

Moss, Malcolm

Tyler, paul (N Cornwall)

Murrison, Dr. Andrew

Tyrie, Andrew

Oaten, Mark (Winchester)

viggers, Peter

O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

Waterson, Nigel

Osborne, George (Tatton)

Watkinson, Angela

Page, Richard

Webb Steve (Northavon)

Paice, James

Whittingdale, John

Pickles, Eric

Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

Portillo, rh Michael

Wiggin, Bill

Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr

Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

Williams, Roger (Brecon)

Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

Wilshire, David

Pugh, Dr. John

Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

Randall, John

Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)

Redwood, rh John

Rendel, David

Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

Robathan, Andrew

Young, rh Sir George

Robertson, Angus (Moray)

Younger-Ross, Richard

Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)

Tellers for the Noes:

Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

Mrs. Cheryl Gillan and

Robinson, Mrs Iris (Strangford)

Mr. Mark Hoban

Question accordingly agreed to.

Orders of the Day

  Fire Services Bill
  Considered in Committee.
  [SIR MICHAEL LORD in the Chair]

  Fire Services Bill
    Clause 1

      POWERS OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE
      4.15 pm
      Mr. Philip Hammond: I beg to move amendment No. 35, in page 1, line 2, after 'instrument', insert
      'within eighteen months of the commencement of this Act'.
      The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Michael Lord): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments:
      No. 31, in page 1, line 2, leave out from 'instrument' to 'fix' in line 4.
      No. 34, in page 1, line 6, at end insert—
      '(1B) The Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument give specific or general directions to fire authorities about the use or disposal of property or facilities.'.
      No. 17, in page 2, line 18, at end insert—
      '() No order shall be made under this section more than two years after the commencement of this Act, except for the purpose of revoking provision contained in a previous order.'.
      No. 22, in clause 1, page 2, line 20, leave out from `(1)(a)' to end of line 21 and insert
      'may only be made if a draft of the statutory instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament but such a draft shall not be laid for approval unless not less than 14 days previously each House of Parliament shall have debated a draft of the statutory instrument.'.
      No. 23, in page 2, line 20, leave out from `(1)(a)' to end of line 21 and insert
      'may only be made if a draft of the statutory instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament'.
      No. 28, in clause 2, page 2, line 25, at end insert—
      '(1A) This Act can only come into force on a date when the following conditions have been met:

      (i) The Secretary of State has published a report to the House of Commons, stating his view that the Fire Services Act 2003 is compatible with Article 6 of the European Social Charter.

      (ii) The Secretary of State has published a report to the House of Commons, stating his view that an order under the Fire Services Act 2003 would not violate Article 8 of the International Labour Organisation Convention Number 151.'.

      No. 29, in page 2, line 25, at end insert—
      (1 B) This Act shall cease to have effect fifteen months after the date on which it comes into effect.'.
      No. 2, in page 3, line 9, at end insert—
      '(4A) The powers conferred by this Act shall cease to have effect eighteen months after the date on which it comes into effect.'.
      No. 16, in clause 2, page 3, line 9, at end insert—
      '(4A) This Act shall come into force on such a day as the Secretary of State shall by order appoint.
      34
      (4B) An order under subsection (4A) above shall be subject to affirmative Resolution by the House of Commons.'.
      Mr. Hammond: This broad group of amendments deals, first, with the duration of the powers to be granted to the Secretary of State, and the Committee is spoilt for choice. Amendment No. 29, which was tabled by the Liberal Democrats, proposes that the powers should last for 15 months, whereas amendment No. 17, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) and is, I understand, supported by the Government, proposes two years. We find ourselves, perhaps untypically, between those two extremes, as we suggest 18 months in amendments Nos. 35 and 2.
      There is broad agreement that the Bill must be seen as a short-term, defined-life measure to deal with a particular situation in which the country finds itself at this moment. We made it clear on Second Reading that we view the short term and the long term quite differently. We can accept measures to deal with the immediate short-term problems that have arisen in the circumstances in which we find ourselves, but certain matters will have to be dealt with differently over the longer term.
      Let us consider the immediate situation that the country faces. The fire service dispute has dragged on for a year; lives are being put at risk and a burden is being placed on the military when our forces are already substantially overstretched, with other potential tasks hurtling at them seemingly from every corner and continent of the world at every moment. So, there are two issues there, but it is also clear that the fire dispute is having a negative impact on the Government's plans to prepare the country properly to defend itself against possible terrorist attacks at home. Nobody in the House can tolerate that.
      In relation to anti-terrorist preparations, the Deputy Prime Minister said on Second Reading:
      "If the FBU will not co-operate, the Government will take action to provide that protection against terrorist attack by whatever means necessary."—[Official Report, 8 May 2003; Vol. 404, c. 858.]
      That implies that if the Fire Brigade Union did not begin to co-operate in the deployment of decontamination units, the Government would take other steps. Will the Minister let the Committee know whether any progress has been made on the important issue of the training and deployment of those decontamination units?
      We see the Bill, If it has a role, as a time-limited, effective measure—it will be effective, however, only if other amendments, which we and others have tabled, are accepted—to end the dispute, lift the threat of strikes and create a breathing space in which to consider in a less pressurised atmosphere the future organisation of our fire services.
      The Bill is not about fairness or any other abstract concept; it is about public safety, which should be the No. 1 consideration of any Government.
      Indeed, the imposition of a settlement by the Secretary of State, unilaterally, is a draconian measure that can be justified only in extreme circumstances. We are prepared to acknowledge that the present circumstances are extreme and could justify extreme measures, but if that is the case the measures must be presented effectively, and deliver the objectives that have been set out.

      35
      On Second Reading, the Deputy Prime Minister referred repeatedly to an arbitrated settlement. This is, of course, no such thing. The Bill proposes giving the Secretary of State power to impose a settlement that he has devised; he is in no sense an independent or impartial arbitrator. The Bill represents a huge step back from the decentralisation of the fire service that is embraced by the Government's modernisation agenda.
      We are in a strange position. A few weeks ago we were asked to vote on the repeal of section 19 of the Fire Services Act 1947, as a result of which the Secretary of State would no longer be involved in, for example, sanctioning the closure of individual fire stations. Now, we are effectively asked to reinstate a power under the 1947 Act that was abolished in 1959—to return the Secretary of State's right to impose a settlement relating to pay and to terms and conditions of employment.
      These measures can, however, be justified because of the public safety issues that have arisen—because of the terrorist threat in the short term, and because of the impact on the military, which, given its current overstretch, cannot provide adequate cover during an ongoing dispute in the fire service. The Deputy Prime Minister himself told us that in the event of a future dispute military cover would be reduced from the 19,000 troops that were available during the strikes before Christmas to only 9,000, with 250 fire appliances—or "goddesses", as the Deputy Prime Minister likes to call them—and some 300 further specialist vehicles. Just 250 pumps would be available to cover the entire United Kingdom.
      On Second Reading, the Deputy Prime Minister said that the powers that he seeks will enable him to secure a pay and modernisation deal. I reaffirm the Conservatives' strong support for the Bain agenda, linking higher pay to improved productivity; but that agenda will be delivered effectively only if the Bill is amended. It is clear that whether it succeeds or fails, it seeks to settle the current dispute by means that would normally be judged unacceptable because there is no element of independent arbitration. For that reason if for no other, this must be seen as an emergency measure—and an essential feature of an emergency measure is its limited duration. It must, in fact, be limited to the duration of the emergency.
      One of the challenges that face us is the task of estimating the likely duration of the present emergency. That task has a number of facets, perhaps the most prominent being the need to deploy large numbers of British troops for peacekeeping duties in Iraq. There is also the possibility that as the war on terrorism unfolds, British troops will be called on for missions elsewhere in the world.
      The duration of the Bill should be limited so that more complex—and perhaps, in the longer term, more acceptable—solutions can be adopted, with the benefit of mature consideration: far more consideration than we are able to devote to all the Bill's remaining stages in a single afternoon. We believe that 18 months is probably an adequate initial period for the existence of the proposed powers, although the Government could of course seek to extend it at some future time.
      36
      Perhaps the Government intend to support amendment No. 17 because it specifies a different period—two years—or because they find the face of its mover slightly more amenable. If they can make a case for a two-year period, we would certainly accept it and withdraw amendment No. 35. Desperate efforts have been made behind the scenes, involving a roll of sticking plaster and a pair of scissors, and I am sure that it is purely coincidence that it is the chairman of the Labour party trade union liaison committee who happens to have tabled amendment No. 17.
      We want the White Paper that the Government have promised to map out a long-term solution to these problems. I doubt whether anybody in this place regards the measures and powers in the Bill as a satisfactory long-term solution to the big issues facing the fire service. We expect the White Paper to map out options in terms of mechanisms for a fair pay determination system in the fire service, and to address the question of the use of strikes as a bargaining tool in an emergency service that is of such vital importance to the safety and security of our communities.
      The latest version of the draft agreement—the employer's offer—has become a bit more than an offer; it has been discussed at such length by the two sides that it is in fact the draft of an agreement. The previous draft contained a reference to the White Paper, but it has been expunged from the current draft, which appears to internalise the whole process of developing a mechanism for pay determination and dispute resolution within national joint council procedures. Perhaps the Minister can explain to the Committee the significance of that. We are all waiting with bated breath for the White Paper, but it seems that its significance is being eroded by the minute. I would be greatly reassured if the Minister could confirm that it will address the issues of pay determination, dispute resolution and the possibility of a no-strike environment.
      Perhaps the Minister could also tell us when we are likely to see the White Paper. On Second Reading—on 8 May—the Deputy Prime Minister said that we would see it shortly, but the Minister said a few hours later, at the end of the debate, that it would be published in the very near future. I rather felt on that day that we were edging towards it by the hour, but here we are, on 3 June, and still no sight of it. I should be interested to know whether the Minister expects that we will see it before or after 12 June. That might be a fact of some significance, given that the FBU recall conference is meeting on that day.
      It is on the basis that a White Paper and a subsequent new fire service Act are coming that we are willing to support this Bill—provided that it is amended to ensure that it is workable and effective. On that basis, consensus has emerged—on both sides of the House, I am delighted to say—in favour of a sunset clause. It would be good if the Minister could confirm that, notwithstanding the changes to the draft agreement, the Government are still going down the route whereby the White Paper will set out the long-term mechanisms for resolution of these issues. The reintroduction of a draconian power, relinquished in 1959, cannot be allowed to be anything other than a temporary measure. This Bill has to be a step on a clear route map to a longterm solution that is both fair to firefighters and secures the safety of the public at all times.

      37
      Amendments Nos. 31 and 34—our amendments, Mr. Lord—are essentially drafting changes to accommodate the imposition of a time limit through the mechanism in amendment No. 35, and need not detain the Committee.
      Amendments Nos. 22 and 23, tabled by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg), propose that orders under subsection (1)(a) shall be made by affirmative resolution of both Houses following a debate. Amendment No. 16, tabled by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), in, perhaps, a curious alignment with my right hon. and learned Friend, is designed to achieve a similar objective. In view of the draconian nature of the power being exercised and the undoubted level of interest of the Committee in the detail of the order that the Deputy Prime Minister will lay, the requirement for an affirmative rather than a negative procedure—and, indeed, for a debate on the Floor of the House—is not unreasonable. I look forward to hearing my right hon. and learned Friend's speech putting the case for that proposition and also to the Minister's response.
      4.30 pm
      Amendment No. 28 looks like another example of Liberal Democrat enthusiasm for curbing the sovereignty of this Parliament at every opportunity and making it subject to external constraints. The Liberal Democrats are apparently concerned that the Bill's powers may not be compatible with the European social charter or the International Labour Organisation convention. I am not clear about whether that is so, but I point out to the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) and his colleagues that this is, by consensus, a short-term emergency measure—
      David Davis: What colleagues?
      Mr. Hammond: My right hon. Friend asks "What colleagues?" with some reason. I am sorry to see the hon. Member for Ludlow in such splendid isolation, but I am sure that, when the time comes, he will deliver mightily on behalf of his party.
      I know not whether these powers contravene the European social charter or the International Labour Organisation convention; quite honestly, when the issue is one of public safety, I care not either. I take the view that the public safety of this country's citizens is the main issue of concern in Committee today and I suspect that the hon. Member for Ludlow may learn to his cost that that, rather than compliance with some obscure treaty, will be the issue of principal concern to the good people of Ludlow.
      We want to ensure that we move as soon as possible from an emergency powers regime to a longer-term, more equitable and more sustainable arrangement that delivers the same objectives. I am usually all in favour of constraining the Secretary of State's powers, but I recognise that the Bill does not provide for normal circumstances and that substantial powers are being bestowed on the Secretary of State for a specific reason, so the constraints advocated by the Liberal Democrats are not helpful and will hinder the delivery of the objectives that the Bill is designed to achieve.
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      I hope that in replying to the hon. Member for Ludlow on amendment No. 28, the Minister for Local Government and the Regions will do better than he did in response to the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey), who raised a similar point on Second Reading. On that occasion, the Minister said:
      "On the European social charter, the Bill does not affect the right to strike, nor does it seek to prevent collective bargaining. On the International Labour Organisation convention, article 8 says that a settlement shall be reached through negotiations between the parties. That is our objective—to achieve precisely that negotiation."—[Official Report, 8 May 2003; Vol. 404, c. 921.]
      That may be his objective, but it is not the Bill's purpose, which is to impose a settlement. I do not support the attempt of the hon. Member for Ludlow to impose further constraints, but the Minister will have to do better than he did on Second Reading in addressing the substantive issue.
      Mr. John Bercow: If I understand my hon. Friend correctly, he is saying that it would have been more candid of the Government to admit that they might be in breach of article 8, but to say, in the light of the pre-eminent consideration of public safety, "What of it?"
      Mr. Hammond: That would certainly be my inclination, but no doubt the Minister will try to have his cake and eat it by saying that the Government are not in breach, but that if they were he would put public safety first. I have spent enough time opposing the Minister on various occasions to be able to predict, to some extent, what he is about to say.
      I owe you an apology, Sir Michael, for addressing you by your former title earlier. I have had to make a similar apology to my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas Winterton) on several occasions.
      I am glad that consensus has emerged on the need for a sunset provision for the powers bestowed by the Bill. I shall listen to the Minister's remarks, but I am optimistic that the first of the three conditions for our support for the Bill, which were set out by my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis) on Second Reading, will be fulfilled this afternoon. The Government have accepted the need for a sunset clause, in one form or another, and we will be magnanimous about whether it comes into force in 18 months or two years. The important fact is that the Bill is seen as a temporary, short-term response to an immediate problem.
      Mr. Tony Lloyd: I was intrigued by the debate on the programme motion, when my right hon. Friend the Minister was challenged on the concept of a sunset clause. I was about to stand up and tell him, "Minister, I am your sunset", but being the sunset for the Labour Government is a task rather bigger than I wish to take on, no matter how much the Opposition might like to see that.
      I normally listen with enormous respect to the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), as one of the more reasonable faces on the Opposition Front Bench, and he is normally clear and concise. He mentioned the emergence of a consensus today, but I must tell him that I shall ensure that a copy of his speech is sent to the general session of every trade

      39
      union as soon as I can lay my hands on it. One of the very real differences between the modern Conservative party and almost everybody else could be seen in the words that he used and those that he nearly said.
      Mr. Hammond: Nearly said?
      Mr. Lloyd: I shall attempt to shade in the gaps in a moment. Historically, Conservative Governments have tried to honour and protect our international treaty obligations. They were seen as the very centre of what one nation commits to fellow nations, and signing up to such treaties was not seen as a restraint on the rights of Parliament. Indeed, such matters are gifted by Parliament to the Executive to perform on our behalf. The idea that abrogation of our obligation under the International Labour Organisation treaty should be dismissed as irrelevant, or as something that we can trample all over, is outrageous. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will reflect on that.
      The ILO exists to protect employees all over the planet and, in fair societies, it protects good employers against rapacious employers. As Winston Churchill put it many years ago, we need to ensure that the worst employers do not drive down standards for the better ones. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will reflect on whether the Conservative party wishes to stake its name on ripping up international treaties on labour law or anything else. The signals that he has given will be read widely as showing that the Conservative party is still in retreat from the rest of the world and, especially, from the rest of Britain.
      The hon. Gentleman was right to say that the Bill introduces draconian powers. I have enormous misgivings about it, as do many Labour Members. It will remove the ability of fire service personnel to take part in proper negotiations, and that will not help to resolve the dispute, in either the long term or the short term. If the Bill becomes law, it may not even contribute to the process of dispute resolution, but instead be massively counter-productive.
      A modernised fire service must be able to deal with conventional emergencies and with the greater difficulties arising out of, for example, terrorism. It is in everybody's interest that fire service personnel can negotiate properly in connection with the changes that take place. In the end, it is not possible to impose an operating structure on any service—
      The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he is making something of a Second Reading speech. I remind him that he must speak to the amendments before the House, and especially to the one in his name.
      Mr. Lloyd: I am sorry, Sir Michael. I was trying to respond to the comments of the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, and I thought it necessary to set out the context for the amendment tabled in my name.
      The Bill has a role in the narrow sense that the most important development in the fire services dispute will take place, not on the Floor of the House this evening,
      40
      but during next week's recalled Fire Brigades Union conference. I profoundly hope that the union will accept the recommendation by its general secretary and executive, and that we can move away from the period of dispute.
      I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and the Regions will repeat today what he and my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister have said before—that the Bill will become unnecessary and redundant if the dispute is resolved. Such a statement would have great importance, as it would amount to the sunset clause that everyone wants. It would not set an expiration date in 15 or 18 months, or two years, but apply in a matter of days.
      Mr. Bercow: I accept the general principle that this country should honour its international obligations, unless there is an extraordinarily compelling reason not to do so. However, does the hon. Gentleman accept that, if either the social charter or the ILO convention had the perverse effect of denying this House's right to pass a Bill such as this for a short period to attend to a specific problem, it would be equally perverse for this House to acquiesce in such an arrangement?
      Mr. Lloyd: I am sure, Sir Michael, that you want this exchange to be as rapid as possible. Most international treaties to which this country is a signatory contain emergency provisions that detail the circumstances under which it is possible and necessary for the Government to abrogate certain rights. These are difficult matters, and require enormous caution. All hon. Members expect such powers to be used with restraint, even in the most extreme circumstances. It is important to put on record the fact that restraint is exactly what was displayed by the FBU and its members while the conflict in Iraq was going on. At that time, industrial action was—de facto, if not de jure— suspended. That is very important, as rational people do not seek to exploit national emergencies. I hope that Opposition Members will join me in paying tribute to the FBU for the restraint that it showed in that period. The spirit of the FBU's response to the conflict was consistent with what the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow) asks me to endorse.
      4.45 pm
      Mr. Hammond: The hon. Gentleman has drawn the Committee's attention to the fact that the FBU recall conference takes place next week, and he is trying to elicit from the Minister for Local Government and the Regions a commitment that the Bill will, in effect, be scrapped if the conference accepts a settlement. Is it not a curious use of scarce parliamentary time to take up a whole day to push the measure through when it is clear that in 10 days' time we may find that it is otiose? In those circumstances, does not the Bill look more like a negotiating tactic than a genuine piece of legislation?
      Mr. Lloyd: That question is probably not best addressed to me, given that I have already expressed reservations about the Bill. Perhaps the official Opposition will join me and others in hoping that there will be a proper settlement that is honourable for the FBU and the people who work in our fire services and, of course, for the Government.

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      My reason for going along with the Government is that I recognise the steps that the Deputy Prime Minister and the Government have taken during recent weeks to try to bring an end to the issue. That view has also been placed on record by Andy Gilchrist, the general secretary of the FBU. In the end, the whole House should see the issue not as some polemical political game—I regret that there were shades of that in the hon. Gentleman's speech—because it is far too serious for us to be playing party politics and seeking political advantage. This is genuinely a moment for the nation to reflect on the role of Government, and to call on the employers and employees in the fire service to operate in that spirit, as the FBU is now doing.
      Mr. Ian Davidson: On my hon. Friend's point that the legislation is unnecessary and redundant, has he seen an article in Progress—which, as he knows, is the magazine for true believers—in which the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, whom I remember well when she was a Bolshevik, indicates that the Labour Government risk being thrown from power because they are losing the trust of ordinary people? Is the measure not an example of the Government contributing to that loss of trust by introducing unnecessary and redundant legislation that is widely seen as anti-trade union?
      Mr. Lloyd: I confess that I have heard of the magazine progress, although it has not yet got past my letterbox, or at least not long enough for me to read it.
      Mr. Davidson: Like The Watchtower.
      Mr. Lloyd: My hon. Friend will be aware of the old adage about political literature: it has to be good enough to be read between the letterbox and the bin. Progress, alas, has not, for whatever reason, made it to that state. Perhaps, as at Passover, certain doors are marked as not to be called at and, for Jehovah's Witnesses and the purveyors of Progress, my door is marked with secret symbols that I do not yet understand. If so, I am only too grateful to those who marked my door.
      My right hon. Friend the Minister indicated that he was aware of my hope that the Government would make clear the value of the Bill if there is a proper end to the dispute when the recall conference takes place next week. If we have to revert to using the measure, we shall be in extremely troubled waters. It would pay all of us to use today's debate as an opportunity not to muddy the waters but to lower the political temperature. My right hon. Friend tried to do that during his Second Reading speech and I know that he will do so again today.
      I hope that he will resist the voices of those who want to raise the temperature. The Bill is not of itself draconian, but it will be seriously unhelpful and set a difficult precedent for Labour Members at least to stomach. That is why we need a sunset clause.
      I place on record my great concern at the remarks of the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, which should be weighed carefully by all hon. Members. He sought from my right hon. Friend the Minister comments about the role of a ban on strikes in the emergency services. I hope that the official Opposition will now begin to flesh out their views, because we know
      42
      where they are going. They would seek a ban on industrial action by those working in the fire service. That would be totally unacceptable not just to Labour Members but to many people throughout the country.
      Mr. Hammondrose—
      Mr. Lloyd: Before the hon. Gentleman intervenes, may I invite him to make clear how the Opposition would circumscribe those powers? Which trade unions and groups of employees do the Opposition consider part of the emergency services? To whom would a ban on industrial action apply? What sort of penalties would the Opposition impose on those who sought to take industrial action, limited or otherwise? How would those penalties operate? For example, would those in the fire services or elsewhere who took industrial action be jailed? It would be helpful to get answers to those questions on the record.
      Mr. Hammond: The hon. Gentleman correctly identifies—it did not take much detective work— that we propose that, if the Bill is going to work, it must have a power for the Secretary of State to impose a no-strike provision. However, our target is specifically and exclusively the fire service in which there is a current dispute and a real threat to public safety. I will not fast forward to the fourth group of amendments, but I suspect that we will have this debate in some detail when we come to them.
      I heard what the hon. Gentleman said, but I am sure that he has read the Second Reading debate carefully and noted that the Minister for Local Government and the Regions specifically did not rule out the possibility of a no-strike arrangement as part of the longer-term solution to the fire service settlement. He said that the White Paper would make the Government's thoughts clear. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to press the Minister on that.
      Mr. Lloyd: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments, and I shall come to his final point first. He should examine carefully the words of my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister, who was straightforward on Second Reading. I think that he ruled out the idea of a prohibition on industrial action. It is up to Conservative Members to press my right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and the Regions, but I take the view that such a prohibition would be unachievable. There are many practical difficulties attached to bans on industrial action.
      It is difficult to take seriously the idea that the Opposition would seek to ban strikes in only one part of the emergency services and that they would not use such a ban as a precedent for the rest. There is no logic to their position. It is ridiculous to suggest a ban for the fire service but not for other emergency services. That shows the difference between the Opposition's position and that of the Government and Labour Members.
      The sunset clause is designed for a difficult Bill that I do not want on the statute book. I hope that next week will see the end of the talk about the Bill. However, the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge is suggesting that the Conservative party will campaign for legislation that would impose, come what may, a ban

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      on industrial action by the FBU and those in the fire service. The Opposition are not seeking a sunset clause but a way to halt this Bill so that they could introduce something massively more draconian. That is the message that will go out today. There is a world of difference between the Government, who have their own view, and the Opposition who would seek to implement such legislation on a virtually permanent basis.
      Angela Watkinson: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows from the national news yesterday about the large fire at Waitrose in Finchley that required the attendance of 100 firefighters and 25 pumps. Does he agree that, had the fire service been on strike, there would have been considerable difficulty in amassing 25 green goddesses to deal with the emergency? For that reason, while the Army is recovering after the war in Iraq, it is important that the fire service is not allowed to go on strike.
      Mr. Lloyd: That was a churlish remark because the FBU and the serving personnel who put out the fire in Finchley yesterday did not take industrial action during the Iraq crisis. Rather than again trying to increase difficulties, the hon. Lady should reflect on the fact that the best thing would be for the recall conference to bring the dispute to an end next week. Conservative Members do not want that to happen because they want to increase political difficulties. They want political advantage at the expense of the public because they hope, in their narrow way, that the Government are on the defensive. That approach cannot be in the nation's interest.
      Mr. Hammond: The hon. Gentleman speaks from the Back Benches but I hope that the Minister recognises that the Opposition have tried to co-operate with the Government in dealing with the crisis. I have made it clear on many occasions—and I do so again—that Conservative Members fervently hope that the outcome of the 12 June recall conference is a vote for the employers' offer that is on the table. That would be the best outcome for everyone, and it is wrong for the hon. Gentleman to suggest that Conservative Members do not want that to happen.
      Mr. Lloyd: That is helpful because it means that I do not have to tell people up and down the land that the Conservative party wants to continue industrial difficulties or that it is in the habit of provoking such things and seeking political advantage from them. Of course, I shall still have to tell people that the official position of the Conservative party is to try to ban people in the emergency services from taking industrial action—it is well worth ensuring that that message goes out.
      I shall draw my remarks to a conclusion, entertaining though the debate has been for me. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister will make a further thing clear: the Bill must reach a conclusion in a finite time, even if it is successful. We can argue about different time periods but, frankly, I do not think that the periods on offer today are helpful or necessary because we will be in a very different situation after 15 months, 18 months or
      44
      two years. I hope that we will find an answer to the problem in 10 days, not two years. Nevertheless, it is important for the Government to send a clear signal that they will dismantle the legislation. In that light, I hope that my right hon. Friend accepts the necessity of introducing a sunset clause.
      Matthew Green: My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) would have been speaking at this point but he is absent because he has had to attend the funeral of a close family member.
      The major amendments in the group would add sunset clauses to the Bill. There are three time periods on offer: our 15-month period, the Conservatives' 18-month period and the two-year period suggested by the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd). The Government seem to be minded to accept one of the amendments and I suspect that they will err toward their friendly face on the Back Benches, although that will be more for party political reasons than because of specific differences among the seven-month range on offer. However, it would be welcome if they accept one amendment because it is better to have a sunset clause than not to have one at all. We will be grateful if they accept the purpose of such a clause.
      We would have welcomed its inclusion at the outset. Much of the debate on Second Reading was on that very issue and we could have moved on to more substantive matters had that become clearer earlier.
      5 pm
      It is obvious that a sunset clause is necessary. Ministers were reluctant to introduce the Bill. We do not blame them for that, and perhaps it should not even have reached this stage. The best sunset that it could have is for the FBU to accept the settlement on 12 June. I hope that the Government will say that they do not intend to proceed further with the Bill if that happens.
      I especially hope that the FBU accepts the settlement because one group in particular has been penalised by the dispute. The retained firemen—
      Mr. Hammond: I did not mean to interrupt the hon. Gentleman mid-sentence. The Minister might decide to enlighten the House on the Government's position if the vote goes their way on 12 June, but simply getting the conference to agree to the settlement on offer is not the same as getting the settlement, with all its ramifications, implemented. I caution the Committee on taking the view that all problems will be solved in all areas if the conference agrees the offer on the table.
      Matthew Green: There is broad agreement that the preferable solution is a negotiated settlement. The Bill is a draconian last resort and we do not want it pursued if it is clear that a negotiated settlement is proceeding. It is not in the interests of that negotiated settlement to rush the Bill through. The hon. Gentleman is in great danger of sending out the wrong signal to the firemen. We want them to take a rational and sensible decision on the offer on the table.
      The hon. Gentleman touched on the absence of the White Paper. The amendments relate to several aspects of the Bill and we would have welcomed publication of

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      the White Paper. The imminence of the White Paper is apparently pressing every time it is spoken about, but we still have not seen it. I wonder whether its publication is being delayed until after the 12th. It would at least be open and accountable government if the Minister were to let us know that it will miraculously appear on the 13th after the FBU conference.
      Amendments Nos. 22 and 23—
      Mr. David Drew: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he was about to mention retained firefighters before the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) intervened. One has to accept that there is usually some rancour between the two unions, but it is my understanding that retained firefighters are strongly behind the FBU. Many of its concerns have received a degree of support from retained firefighters.
      Matthew Green: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for bringing me back to that point. I was about to say that retained firefighters are some of the people who have suffered most from the dispute. They have not received pay award increases because they have been held back during the dispute. I am not sure where the hon. Gentleman has talked to retained firemen, but in my constituency, where all the firemen are retained, they have a bit of sympathy with some measures that the FBU has pursued, but they do not have sympathy overall with the way in which its leadership has handled the dispute. Not much has been said about the unfortunate position in which the Retained Firefighters Union finds itself. It cannot negotiate with employers and the FBU negotiates on its behalf. That is an odd situation because retained firefighters might not have the same concerns.
      I hope that the White Paper will herald a shift away from that approach.
      We have a great deal of sympathy for amendments Nos. 22 and 23, which would ensure that if the procedures were needed, an affirmative resolution of both Houses of Parliament and a debate on the Floor of this House would be required. Given what hon. Members on both sides of the House have described as the draconian nature of the Bill, that is a minimum requirement.
      The Conservative Front-Bench spokesman chose to rubbish amendment No. 28. The Conservatives appear to have spent more time discussing that amendment than any of the ones that they tabled, so they are clearly glad that the Liberal Democrats tabled it. Perhaps they got excited because the amendment contains the word "European"—it was probably a red rag to a bull.
      The purpose of amendment No. 28 is to draw attention to the fact that the Joint Committee on Human Rights has alerted to the Government to two potential conflicts arising from the Bill, the first with article 6 of the European social charter 1961. I acknowledge that, at the end of Second Reading, the Minister touched on the potential conflict with the International Labour Organisation convention, and to some extent he dealt with the European social charter, but I do not think that he has fully answered the concerns that have been raised.
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      Under article 31(1) of the European social charter, restrictions or limitations are permitted if they are
      "prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others or for the protection of public interest, national security, public health, or morals."
      On the face of it, it appears that the Bill does not conflict with article 6. However, because the Bill would not restrict the power to make orders to circumstances in which there is a public emergency or collective bargaining has failed to produce a satisfactory result it is possible that an order will be made that contravenes article 6. Perhaps it is not the Government's intention to use the Bill to make such an order, but a more detailed explanation from the Minister of why he does not share the Joint Committee's concerns would be welcome.
      The amendment also deals with article 8 of the ILO labour relations (public services) convention No. 151 1978, to which the UK has signed up. Exemptions from the guarantees provided in the convention cover high-level policy-making or managerial personnel, employees whose duties are of a highly confidential nature, and the armed forces and the police. There is no exemption for members of the fire services—they are not mentioned. The Government may argue that the article does not prevent them from imposing a solution if collective bargaining has failed to produce agreement, but the Bill will not restrict the use of the power to make orders in circumstances in which collective bargaining has been attempted but has failed to produce a satisfactory result within a reasonable time, so it is possible that an order will be made in circumstances that give rise to a violation of article 8 of the ILO convention.
      The Minister might say that those circumstances will not arise, but clearly the Joint Committee did not raise those concerns lightly. Until today, no substantive comment has been made on the Floor of the House about the two concerns.
      We were right to table the amendment, with a view to ensuring that the Government at least address the concerns that have been raised. We await the Government's reaction. Overall, the sunset clause is the most critical. We do not want the Bill to contain an open-ended power that can be used by the Government or future Administrations in unnecessary circumstances. We hope that there is agreement across the Floor of the House and that the Government have seen the light. Perhaps I should say that they see the light ending. We look forward to their acceptance of the sunset clause.
      John McDonnell: I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) that it is important that we say nothing today that will jeopardise the opportunity of a negotiated settlement next week, despicable though the Bill is as an attack on trade union rights, but I will put that to one side.
      My amendment does not provide for a sunset clause, although I support amendments that contain such clauses. Indeed, I support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central.

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      Amendment No. 16 provides a trigger clause. I remember my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister saying in the House that he was the only Secretary of State to introduce a Bill that he did not want to see implemented. He said that in the hope that the negotiations would lead to a settlement before there was a need to introduce legislation, to finalise it and eventually to gain Royal Assent. I drafted an amendment in that spirit.
      Before the Act is implemented, my amendment would require the Secretary of State to return to the House with an order that the House would have to determine by affirmative resolution. Obviously, negotiations would continue. The Secretary of State would have the opportunity to return to the House with a report on the progress of those negotiations, on the basis of whether they were satisfactory for the employer and employee and for the Government overall, and therefore representatives of the community overall. My amendment is in the spirit of the Deputy Prime Minister's approach to this legislation. Indeed, my right hon. Friend was applauded for his conciliatory approach during the debate that took place in May.
      Mr. Hammond: I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman's premise that it would be good to determine the order by affirmative resolution. I can assure him that whatever he does, when the order is made by negative resolution, he can be certain that the official Opposition will pray against it, whatever it says, good or bad, to ensure that there is a proper debate.
      John McDonnell: I welcome the hon. Gentleman's comments. We should ensure that we should have a debate whenever we can.
      The purpose of my amendment is to enable my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister to report back to the House. We can then determine whether the Bill is necessary and whether it should be enacted and implemented. It would provide an opportunity for the Government to get off the hook, because the Bill has ramifications that go wider than the fire service. Indeed, it has ramifications for overall trade union rights. It could set a precedent—not, I hope, for this Government—for other Governments who may wish to introduce legislation to impose settlements in other disputes. As soon as we go down that slope, we start to undermine some basic human rights that the Labour party has campaigned for since its inception. Other parties that are represented in the House have also signed up to them in terms of national legislation and European-wide legislation.
      I will not press my amendment to a Division, but the purpose behind it is to try to help the Government to get off the hook, given the intemperate legislation that they have introduced, and to do so before that legislation is implemented. We hope that there is a settlement and that the proposed legislation will not be necessary. However, if the Government wish to proceed, I shall certainly support the sunset clause that has been proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central.
      5.15 pm
      Mr. Douglas Hogg: I support what the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) has just said, at least in part, because I can sympathise with his amendment No. 16.
      I support the sunset clause. I hope the Government will accept the amendment moved by the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd), which I understand is their intention. I am slightly surprised that such a provision was not written into the Bill, but on the principle of welcoming a sinner that repenteth, I suppose we should not be too churlish and grumble now, though I am very surprised that we are having a Committee stage on the Floor of the House rather than having the Prime Minister making a statement, as was requested in points of order, but that is a wider matter that I shall not address now.
      My amendment No. 23 is the standard affirmative procedure resolution. Amendment No. 22 is not, and I shall explain in a moment why I tabled it. We need first to understand the extensive nature of the powers set out in clause 1. There are three substantive powers in that clause on which we need to focus. First, it gives the Secretary of State a unilateral power to vary contracts of employment. In other words, the Secretary of State can by unilateral action change contracts of employment already in place. That is a wide power.
      Secondly, under clause 1(1)(b) the Secretary of State can direct the disposal of property of which he is not the owner. Again, that is a pretty wide power. Lastly, though perhaps not surprisingly given that it emanates from the Government, clause 1(2)(c) includes the power to impose charges on third parties. Those are extensive powers—the power unilaterally to vary a contract of employment, the power to direct the disposal of property and the power to impose financial burdens, all at the fiat of the Secretary of State. We need to ask ourselves what fetters and constraints are imposed on the Secretary of State. Precious few, is the answer.
      I recognise, of course, that the negative procedure is envisaged by the Bill, and I shall say a word about that in a moment. I acknowledge that the Bill contains provisions for consultation—consultation with lots of people, rather unspecified, but not with the House. The House is cut out of the process, save by the negative procedure, notwithstanding the fact that we are dealing with the variation of contracts, the disposal of property and the imposition of financial burdens. The one set of people who do not have a decisive say is us, the representatives of the people—not surprising, as I say, coming from this Government.
      Those are the problems that my amendments are designed to address. Amendment No. 23 is the standard affirmative resolution procedure—that is to say, the statutory instruments cannot become law unless they are approved in both Houses of Parliament. That, I should have thought, was the very minimum that the House would wish to require of the Government. However, it does not address the real problem.
      Affirmative resolutions are just affirmative resolutions of statutory instruments, and statutory instruments are not amendable. They can be rejected in their entirety or approved in their entirety. What the House does not have the power to do is to amend a

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      statutory instrument, by adjusting its terms, deleting part of it or inserting something else in it. It is an extraordinarily imperfect method of controlling what is effectively legislation.
      That is the reason for my amendment No. 22. Very occasionally—I regret to say, very occasionally—Governments lay before Parliament a draft of the statutory instrument before Parliament is asked to vote on it, so that there can be a debate, sometimes 14 and sometimes 21 days before the substantive discussion. That gives hon. Members an opportunity to make a point about the statutory instrument and, hopefully, affect the outcome.
      That is a pretty miserable way of controlling government itself, but it is the only mechanism that parliamentary procedure currently allows. We should give ourselves the power to amend statutory instruments just as we amend Bills, but we have not done so and we must use the procedures that are available to us. Amendment No. 22 would use one of the few methods that is open to us.
      Using the amendment, I would wish to argue the case for imposing on members of the fire brigade unions a prohibition on the right to strike. I certainly think that that is a proper issue to discuss, as it was in respect of the police service. After all, the police regulations and the Police Act 1996—incidentally, their terms are replicated in new clauses 1 and 2, which were not selected for discussion—prohibit such action in respect of the police. I see no possible justification for members of the fire brigade to go on strike at any time. I think that it is very reprehensible indeed that, in pursuit of an industrial action, they should put at risk the life and property of their fellow citizens. I think that that is quite wrong.
      Matthew Green: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman see that argument as extending to other bodies, such as the ambulance service?
      Mr. Hogg: I would not say no as a matter of principle, as I would regard each class on its merits. We are now talking about the fire brigade, to which I shall confine my remarks, but that does not mean that I would not make the same comment about other services in appropriate circumstances. I would treat each on its own merits.
      Mr. Elfyn Llwyd: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman think again about what he said about putting lives at risk? During the strike, adequate cover was provided and, to be fair, when FBU members were called upon, they broke the strike to avoid that outcome.
      Mr. Hogg: I am perfectly prepared to accept that members of the fire brigade broke their strike and came out to help on a number of occasions, but one cannot seriously say as a matter of general principle that members of the fire brigade do not put at risk the lives of their fellow citizens or their property if they go on strike. That is the inevitable consequence of strike action and I happen to think that it is profoundly wrong. I think that this House should have a proper opportunity to debate that. Speaking for myself, I would like such prohibitions to be incorporated in statute law.
      Mr. Hammond: My right hon. and learned Friend might want to remind the hon. Member for
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      Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) of the fact that, on Second Reading, the Deputy Prime Minister himself said:
      "If the FBU calls for further strikes, lives will be endangered and property put at risk. "—[Official Report, 8 May 2003: Vol. 404, c. 859.]
      Mr. Hogg: One does not have to be very bright to spot that, as it is the inevitable consequence of members of the emergency services going on strike. While individual members might break strike action on occasion, the inevitable and probably intended consequence is to put pressure on the Government. Those on strike put pressure on the Government by putting at risk the lives and property of their fellow citizens. I happen to think that that is profoundly wrong.
      Mr. Simon Thomas: I do not agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman about the right to strike, which I think is a hard won right that we should preserve in this country. Nevertheless, does not his logic, which I shall accept for a moment, drive him to conclude that, if no right to strike is allowable in the fire service, no right to impose a settlement should be allowed on the part of a Government? If there is no right to strike, the fire service should have an independent decision-making process for agreeing proper wages and conditions for firemen and women.
      Mr. Hogg: I start from the first proposition—that there should not be a right to strike. Let me say that when I was Prisons Minister, I argued the same in respect of prison officers, as I thought it entirely wrong for them to take industrial action. I also happened to be Police Minister some way back, and I am extremely glad that the Police Act 1996 and police regulations prevent police officers from going on strike. The same is true of the armed services—and quite right too.
      The question whether the Secretary of State should have a power unilaterally to impose a prohibition on the right to strike is another matter.
      The important point is that the House, not the Secretary of State, should decide the matter. Amendment No. 23 would at least provide for the affirmative resolution procedure to allow the House to give its support.
      I have gone a little wide of what I wanted to say—I am grateful for your indulgence, Sir Michael—in arguing vigorously the case against strike action by fire brigade members, which I feel very strongly about. In any event, these powers are important because they constitute both a unilateral variation of contracts of employment and a right to impose financial burdens and to dispose of property. That should be done only with the proper authority of this Committee. The measure would be imperfect even if the House accepted amendment No. 22, but it is the least that we could properly do, and I hope that right hon. and hon. Members will consider that.
      Ms Joan Walley: First, I record as a declaration of interest my membership of a trade union and say that we should fiercely defend the right to strike, which is so important for trade unions.
      I want briefly to speak in support of amendment No. 16 and the amendments tabled in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Mr.

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      Lloyd). The overall point is that we are spending an enormous amount of time debating these issues when we should be talking about the future modernisation of the fire service and the part that the pathfinder report can play in that. In that context, many hon. Members, including me, will listen carefully to every word that the Minister says in response to this group of amendments so as to judge whether the Bill may be unnecessary, given that a negotiated settlement may follow the conference that is taking place in Glasgow next Thursday. Firefighters, too, will listen carefully to his comments, especially in relation to the sunset clause and the affirmative resolution, to determine whether the Government intend to allow a negotiated settlement to be reached. Whatever happens, without such a settlement we will not have the necessary goodwill from everybody to take the agenda forward.
      I respect the generosity that my right hon. Friend the Minister extended towards Staffordshire MPs when he met us shortly before the recess. We told him how important it was that a negotiated settlement should be reached, irrespective of the Bill, and that, having met FBU members and the chief fire officer, we want to ensure that not only the FBU but the employers are able to advance the modernisation agenda. His response will be carefully scrutinised, and I await it with great interest.
      The Minister for Local Government and the Regions (Mr. Raynsford): The amendments predominantly deal with the issue of whether the Bill should be time limited, which was raised by several hon. Members on Second Reading. At the time, I said that that could be considered in Committee, and so it has proved. As we have made clear on several occasions, the Bill is part of our strategy for dealing with the exceptional set of circumstances presented by the current fire dispute. It is not a vehicle for dealing with our longer-term vision for the fire service, which will be set out in the White Paper that we expect to publish shortly.
      I hope that hon. Members will understand that there are always timetable issues involved in the publication of important documents, but it is our intention to publish the White Paper in the very near future.
      5.30 pm
      As the Committee will know, we are committed to modernising the fire service, and the forthcoming White Paper will describe our proposed reforms in detail. I hope that it will be helpful to the Committee if I take a little time to describe how the Bill and the White Paper will complement each other. Before I do so, however, I want to make it quite clear to my hon. Friends that there is no wider application to any other industrial relations situation implicit in the Bill; it relates specifically to the current position in the fire service. That has been clearly stated by the Deputy Prime Minister and me on many occasions, and I want to make it absolutely clear to the Committee tonight.
      The powers that the Bill would confer would enable us to draw a line under the present dispute. The Bill should therefore be a temporary measure, designed solely to address the current dispute and its immediate aftermath. For the longer term, the White Paper will set
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      out comprehensive proposals for a new framework for the fire service that I believe will give it a new sense of purpose and prevent the kind of stalemate that has characterised this industrial dispute. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) asked me whether the Bill would address some of the difficult issues that have been thrown up by the negotiations, and I can give him the assurance that he is seeking: we shall certainly set out proposals for a longer-term framework which should ensure a better future without the kind of unproductive stalemate that we have encountered in the course of the last few months.
      I should also say to the hon. Gentleman that there is absolutely no significance, so far as I am concerned, in the textual changes in the later stages of the employers' offer. The employers assure us that those changes are entirely compatible with their objective of ensuring the modernisation of the fire service while giving reassurance to worried members of the Fire Brigades Union that some of the wilder fears that have been expressed about some of the consequences are completely unfounded. Those assurances were used as a basis for changes to the document, to give reassurance. That is an entirely sensible and proper thing for the employers to have done, but it in no way changes the fundamental principle that the pay offer of 16 per cent. must be linked to modernisation, and that modernisation must achieve the necessary savings to ensure that the offer is affordable.
      Mr. Hammond: I hear what the right hon. Gentleman says about the deletion of the reference to the White Paper, but does he not see at least a message, if not a specific significance, in the removal from paragraph 1.1 of the following words?
      "This is a package agreement, which integrates changes to modernise the fire service with associated pay rises, which depend upon the implementation of the entire package."
      Those words have been expunged. Is there no significance to that?
      Mr. Raynsford: We have made it quite clear to the employers on many occasions that the interim funding of £30 million that we have pledged to make it possible for them to meet the costs of this settlement—given that it will take some time for the benefits of modernisation to flow through and to meet the costs implicit in the offer—is the maximum that is on offer, and that we shall not meet any additional amount. The employers are quite clear about that, and hence about the fact that the offer has to ensure that savings can be made over that time scale to enable them to keep within their budgets. They have made it clear to us that they are satisfied that the latest offer achieves that objective, and of course it is in their interest to do so because, financially, they will have no other means of meeting the costs of the settlement.
      The White Paper will articulate the Government's vision for the fire service. It will set out the reforms that we have in mind to ensure that the service is well managed and efficient, serving the needs of the community and able to respond to the challenges of the 21st century. We intend to set out the legal, institutional and managerial changes required to deliver that vision. One of the keys to this is to set clear targets for fire and

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      safety outcomes, to support local analysis of how these can best be achieved, and to insist on best value in the way in which services are delivered.
      In the context of this long-term approach, we are prepared to accept the principle that the Bill should be time-limited. However, we believe that the time limits of 15 months, as set out in amendment No. 29 tabled by the Liberal Democrats, or 18 months, as proposed in amendments Nos. 2 and 35 tabled by the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, are too short. I will explain why.
      Even when a settlement has been achieved, whether by agreement or by imposition, the new direction that modernisation requires will not be achieved overnight. It therefore makes sense to retain the powers that the Bill will confer until we can be reasonably clear about the fact that the improvements that we want to see are well on the way to being achieved.
      Valerie Davey: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
      Mr. Raynsford: I will give way to my hon. Friend in a moment, but I want to make a little more progress. It is important for the time scale to be fully understood.
      A time limit of 18 months would last to around the end of 2004, assuming that the Bill receives Royal Assent this summer. That sounds a long time away and it might just allow sufficient time for any Bill introduced in the next Session—one designed to implement the White Paper policies—to come into effect, although that could not be guaranteed if the parliamentary passage of such a Bill were prolonged. With a 15-month time limit, there would be a serious risk of those powers lapsing before any Bill setting out our long-term strategic framework even received Royal Assent, let alone came into effect.
      We should also bear in mind the fact that the fire service pay settlement date is November each year. The deal now on the table would change that by bringing the date forward to July, but if it were not accepted—of course, the powers in the Bill are designed for a situation in which there is no negotiated settlement—we would face the possibility of having to make an award not only for November 2002 and November 2003, but perhaps for November 2004. If we were in that situation, it would not help to be working against an 18-month time limit that ran out in December or January, and certainly not a 15-month time limit that ran out in September or October.
      In any event, experience has taught us that we need a back-stop. Fire service reform and the legislation that that entails are Government priorities. The Bill should be a stop-gap that enables us to deal with the immediate future, but does not tackle all the long-term challenges. At the moment, there are grounds for optimism about the outcome of negotiations between the employers and the FBU. We may not even need to use these powers at all. As we have always made clear, that is our hope.
      I respond to my hon. Friends the Members for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) and for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley) by saying that the Deputy Prime Minister and I have clearly indicated on many occasions that our objective is that there should be a negotiated settlement and that if that is achieved we will
      54
      not need to use the powers in the Bill. That is a clear commitment. This is a stop-gap. We hope that it will not he necessary to use these powers.
      Mr. Hammond: I would be grateful if the Minister clarified the distinction between not using the powers and abandoning the Bill, because it seems to me to he important. It is perfectly possible that on 12 June the offer will be accepted, but that we will find further down the line in some areas, although perhaps not all, that there are difficulties with implementing the changes in working conditions that are integral to the offer.
      Mr. Raynsford: The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly fair point that is obviously in our mind. There have been worries over the past few months that agreements appeared to he on the verge of being reached, but were not achieved. There may well be areas that are less enthusiastic about reaching an agreement than others. I sincerely hope that an agreement is reached, that next week's recall conference votes decisively in favour of what is a good offer from the employers, and that there will be wholehearted commitment to implementing the agreement. Of course, it would be foolish of us to assume that that will be the case.
      As I have made clear, we believe that there is a need for provision to cope with the circumstances between now and the implementation of the Bill that will give effect to our White Paper proposals, which is why I have said that the 18-month and 15-month periods are probably too short. So I confirm our belief that this Bill should proceed to the statute book, but we do not intend to invoke its powers if there is a settlement and it is implemented in the way that we all hope it will be.
      Matthew Green: Do not the Minister's remarks disagree with the Deputy Prime Minister's earlier statements? The Deputy Prime Minister said that, if there were a settlement, the Government would not need to proceed with the Bill.
      Mr. Raynsford: No. My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister has made clear on many occasions his earnest hope that he will not need to use these powers, which is different from saying that he does not want the Bill to be enacted. We believe that the Bill is necessary.
      Valerie Davey: Earlier, my right hon. Friend made it very clear that the Bill was intended to deal with the current dispute and its immediate aftermath. I understood him then to say that he needed it as a backstop for implementation of the White Paper. That surely flies in the face of the trust that we need in order to secure a settlement by agreement. I am sorry to return to this issue, but is the Bill intended to deal with the immediate dispute—which was my impression—or to enable the White Paper to be implemented?
      Mr. Raynsford: Let me try to explain. This is an important issue, and the two elements are closely related.
      The offer from the employers involves a settlement over two and a half years, during which modernisation will fund much of the cost of the firefighters' increased pay, which will be given in three stages. The two must go

      55
      hand in hand. Without implementation, the employers would clearly find it impossible to meet the commitment to increased pay. That is why the period after agreement is closely, and rightly, associated with our current position.
      As I have made plain to the Committee, in parallel with that we intend to publish in the near future a White Paper providing a modern framework for the fire service. We recognise that the current arrangements, which date back to 1947, are out of date in many respects and need to be reformed. The White Paper will set out our vision for the future of the fire service. We intend to seek legislation at the earliest opportunity after that, but, as my hon. Friend knows, it cannot happen quickly.
      John McDonnell: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
      Mr. Raynsford: I am trying to answer the important question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, West (Valerie Davey). I will give way in a moment.
      The implementation of the subsequent Bill is likely to take at least until the end of the 18-month period specified in the amendment. If it were delayed, there would be a hiatus between the lapsing of this Bill and the implementation of the new one. We do not think that that would be healthy or sensible. We think that the new framework for the fire service should be introduced as early as possible, but that the lapsing of this Bill should not precede that.
      John McDonnell: I am trying to be constructive. Can my right hon. Friend explain why the combination of a sunset and a trigger clause does not satisfy his requirements and those of the Deputy Prime Minister? A sunset clause recognises that the Bill will lapse in due course. A trigger clause gives the Government an opportunity to say, "We will not implement this legislation unless we have a difficulty. Then we will come back to the House, explain the difficulty, and if necessary proceed to implementation."
      Mr. Raynsford: If my hon. Friend will bear with me, I shall deal with that when I deal with his amendment, which seeks to introduce such a trigger clause. He stressed that the amendment had been tabled in a constructive spirit, and I hope to respond in the same spirit.
      As I have said, we know from experience that recommendations to conference from the FBU executive are not always accepted. We would rightly be open to criticism from Members, and indeed from the wider public, if in 15 or 18 months we found ourselves facing further disruption and frustration, but without the powers in the Bill. A two-year time limit would, we believe, provide more certainty. I am pleased to say that we will therefore accept amendment No. 17, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central.
      In addition to providing a sunset clause to a realistic time scale, his amendment has the added benefit of permitting the Secretary of State to revoke orders made under the Bill after its order-making power has ceased to have effect, should that be necessary.
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      5.45 pm
      Opposition Members have suggested that only the power to fix or to modify conditions of service should be time limited, so that the Secretary of State can continue to give directions to fire authorities about the use of property or facilities after 18 months have elapsed following Royal Assent. That is not appropriate either, for the reasons that I gave earlier. The White Paper and consequent substantive legislation will address the Secretary of State's relationship with the fire authorities in the round.
      Mr. Hammond: I may have missed something, but although amendment No. 35 may have that effect, amendment No. 2 clearly states:
      "The powers conferred by this Act shall cease to have effect eighteen months after the date on which it comes into effect."
      Mr. Raynsford: I understand that point. The hon. Gentleman has two amendments in his name and they would have different effects. Amendment No. 35 would have the effect that I just described, so I hope that he will accept that our proposal is the sensible way forward.
      Amendments Nos. 22 and 23 deal with the parliamentary procedure for making orders under the Bill and are, as we heard from the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg), alternatives. Both require orders made under clause 1(1)(a), on conditions of service, to be approved by a resolution of both Houses. However, amendment No. 22 would require that an order also be debated in draft by each House not even than 14 days before it was laid. I heard the justification advanced by the right hon. and learned Gentleman—that that would allow amendment of a statutory instrument that would otherwise not be possible. However, such orders would be made only in circumstances where there was a serious short-term need for action because of—as the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge rightly pointed out—a potential risk to the public.
      The powers contained in clause 1(1)(b) in particular, relating to the deployment of equipment and appliances in the interest of public safety, would need to be used very quickly indeed. That is why, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman will understand, we have not made provision for parliamentary approval of those powers. If there were a process whereby the powers could be used to ensure that aerial appliances or other firefighting equipment that otherwise might not be made available could be made available in a hurry, he would find it difficult to justify a procedure involving two—
      Mr. Hoggrose—
      Mr. Raynsford: I shall give way to the right hon. and learned Gentleman in a moment; I am trying to explain my reason for not accepting his amendment. The public would find it odd that not just this House but the other House was expected to debate, on two separate occasions, whether it was appropriate for the Secretary of State to use those powers to ensure the deployment of fire appliances to protect public safety and save people's

      57
      lives. I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will accept that that rather elaborate procedure simply would not be appropriate in such circumstances.
      Mr. Hogg: The right hon. Gentleman has focused on the power to order the deployment of facilities of various kinds. Of course, the argument that he advances does not apply to the power to
      "fix or modify the conditions of service",
      particularly remuneration. No such urgency exists there; perhaps he would care to confine his remarks to the power to deploy the facilities.
      Mr. Raynsford: With the greatest of pleasure, because, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows, in terms of the power to fix conditions of service there is a separate requirement—an obligation on the Secretary of State to undertake consultation. So there will be a full opportunity for the views of those most closely involved—including those working in the fire service, the employers and the public—to express their views before any decision is taken. I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman regards that as appropriate.
      We are openly seeking these powers on a temporary basis, so the procedures laid down will have only a limited life. As I have said, we will set out in the forthcoming White Paper our longer-term strategy.
      If amendment No. 16 were accepted, the Bill would be commenced by order, which would be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. As currently drafted, the legislation would commence on enactment and the order-making powers would be immediately available to the Secretary of State. Subject to the Bill's other provisions—such as those on consultation, to which I have just referred—the Secretary of State would be able to make a pay award or give directions to fire authorities straight away. I believe that that is desirable, for the reasons that I have outlined.
      It would mean that firefighters could receive their pay award relatively quickly. The hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) rightly pointed out that many retained firefighters have not received a pay increase since November 2001 and, quite reasonably, feel aggrieved about it. Many have not been involved in the dispute, and with the prospect of continued protracted delay much can be said in favour of taking action to ensure that firefighters receive a pay increase relatively quickly.
      Secondly, in the event of further strikes, the Secretary of State might need to give urgent directions to a fire authority to ensure that property and facilities are available to those providing emergency cover in order properly to protect the public. The amendment would inevitably cause delay, frustrating the wishes of many firefighters to receive a pay award and placing the public at unnecessary risk.
      Amendment No. 28 deals with human rights, about which hon. Members are understandably concerned.
      John McDonnell: I am incredulous about the process that the Minister suggests would encompass delay. He makes two specific points, the first of which is about the pay award. If agreement is reached next week, will the Secretary of State determine the pay award under the
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      Bill, or will previous negotiation procedures apply? If the new legislation applies, we would have to wait for it to pass through the House of Lords before we could proceed with the pay award. I thought that current negotiations related to current negotiating practices and that an award could be agreed on that basis.
      Secondly, if disputes arise in future, are we suggesting that the Secretary of State would not have time to discuss the matter, produce a report and decide whether the legislation should be implemented? Disputes can arise without necessarily incurring delay. The Government are not suggesting real practical problems and the trigger mechanism would assist rather than obstruct the resolution of future disputes.
      Mr. Raynsford: It has always been clear that our objective is to secure a negotiated settlement. If such a settlement is secured, it will proceed and the powers in the Bill will neither be needed nor used. If a negotiated settlement is reached, there is no question of the Bill causing delay. If it is not, many firefighters have waited a long time for a pay settlement and might welcome a settlement being imposed quickly in preference to further prolonged negotiation and discussion, which the amendment would require.
      Secondly, if the dispute were to continue without agreement being reached, strike action could take place at seven days' notice. My hon. Friend will know the relevant industrial relations legislation that applies. In those circumstances and in the light of evidence that the Deputy Prime Minister provided to the House a month ago about the limited ability of military personnel to cope with such an emergency, having powers in place to ensure that facilities are available to protect the public—the public have paid for them—is surely an overriding requirement. It would be perverse to prevent the Secretary of State from using such powers urgently to protect the public interest.
      John McDonnell: The amendment is not designed to prevent the Secretary of State from using the powers, but to enable him to report back to the House so that the House can decide whether to activate them. Are we saying that the House could not clear the decks to deal with an order presented to it? A statement would be made to the House in any case. I simply do not understand what the practical problems are; they seem to be invented. The purpose of the amendment is to get the Secretary of State off the hook and abide by the spirit of the Deputy Prime Minister's commitment to the House that he did not want the legislation enacted.
      Mr. Raynsford: I have to tell my hon. Friend that the Deputy Prime Minister's concern is different: he wants to ensure that he has the power to act expeditiously if necessary to protect the public. I am sure that my hon. Friend can envisage agreement not being reached next week—though I hope it will be—and the dispute rumbling on for another couple of months with the threat of strike action during the summer recess. In those circumstances, no mechanism would be available other than the recall of Parliament to allow the Secretary of State to use his powers, which is clearly an unsatisfactory position.
      Mr. Hammond: The Minister may have made a slip of the tongue in that exchange. He said that if a settlement

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      were reached, the powers would not be used. I am sure that he would want to clarify that, because he said earlier that the powers would not be used if a settlement were both reached and implemented. Surely he would want to retain the ability to use the powers.
      Mr. Raynsford: I made that clear earlier and it is our wish to see a settlement reached and implemented. In responding to my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, West, I highlighted the fact that the settlement depended on pay and modernisation going hand in hand. That has applied for two and half years. The two have to be linked and implementation has to proceed to be fully honoured.
      Human rights are, as I said, a matter of concern to hon. Members on both sides of the House, so it might be helpful if I explain the Government's thinking in some detail.
      My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister made it clear from the outset that he believed that the Bill was compatible with the European convention on human rights. The Joint Committee on Human Rights carried out an initial examination of the Bill and its report recorded its provisional view that it is compatible with the convention. The Joint Committee did, however, raise concerns about the compatibility of the Bill with two conventions, neither of which is incorporated into UK law. The first is the European social charter, article 6 of which is designed to ensure the effectiveness of the right to collective bargaining. The Bill does nothing to interfere with the right of the fire service to engage in collective bargaining, and nothing to make it less effective. In fact, we all wish that it had been more effective than it has been over the last 12 months.
      Mr. Hogg: The Bill may not have that effect, but the regulations introduced under it may have. Clause 1(1)(a) makes it absolutely clear that regulations can determine pay and conditions, contrary to the outcome of negotiations.
      Mr. Raynsford: As I was about to say, and as the right hon. and learned Gentleman will understand, many of us wish that the collective bargaining procedures had been more effective. The dispute began more than a year ago when the claim was lodged. Sadly, despite frequent efforts to find ways of bringing the two sides together, securing a negotiated solution has so far proved unsuccessful. I hope, as does the whole House, that next week the Fire Brigades Union recall conference will agree to the latest offer of the employers—a good and generous offer and a good basis for ensuring a good future for the fire service and a sound settlement for firefighters. We hope that there will be no need to use the powers in the Bill. However, in the event of no agreement being reached, it cannot be right to allow the position to continue. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman and the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge repeatedly emphasised, the public could be put at risk. In those circumstances, it is right to ensure that effective action can be taken to safeguard the public.
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      I would draw attention to the fact that rights under the charter are not absolute. Article 31 permits some restrictions or limitations, if they are
      "prescribed by law and necessary in a democratic society for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others or for the protection of public interest, national security, public health, or morals".
      We believe that it is now necessary to draw a line under the dispute if the parties fail to bring it to an end through the normal processes of bargaining. Naturally, it is for the Committee to determine whether it agrees: that is the nature of democracy. We are satisfied that both the Bill and the order-making powers, if we are forced to use them, are compatible with the charter.
      Mr. Llwyd: The Minister said that, even if a settlement were reached, the Bill and its powers of direction would remain necessary in order to bring it into effect. He now says that he hopes that the Bill will not be used at all. I may be stupid, but will the Minister clarify which is the correct version? It is an important point.
      Mr. Raynsford: At the risk of going over the ground again, I hope that I have made it clear that we believe that the Bill is necessary to oversee the period during which the implementation of the settlement takes place. On the employers' offer, the settlement will cover a two and a half year period. The Bill is necessary to ensure implementation because pay and modernisation are inextricably linked as part of the settlement. That is why the powers are necessary, but we have repeatedly said that it is not our intention to invoke them or use them, assuming that agreement is reached and implemented.
      Mr. Drew: When we talk about the employer, we need to be clear that we do not mean central Government or an employer, but a number of employers. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that if a fire authority failed to settle with its employees, for whatever reason, the Government would not seek to impose a deal retrospectively on that authority? Otherwise, this process looks like the Government telling each fire authority what it should do with every one of its conditions of employment, and that is not desirable.
      6 pm
      Mr. Raynsford: No one would regard a settlement as satisfactory if it applied only to some areas of the country and not to others. People expect a properly functioning fire service in every part of the country, and it is our objective to achieve a national settlement. All the parties, including the employers—the local authority and other fire authority employers—the union and the Government, want an agreement that applies nationally. However, I hope that my hon. Friend will recognise that circumstances could arise—I have outlined them in response to earlier questions—in a continuing dispute, in which certain authorities were more helpful in making equipment available to others to protect the public interest. In such cases, it might be necessary to use the powers selectively to protect the public. That is why the powers in the Bill may be applied generally or to particular authorities.
      Mr. Drew: The implication of that is that we will have a national settlement for not only pay, but all

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      conditions. If that is the case, we should be honest and open about it, and we should tell local authorities that their room for manoeuvre will be considerably constrained, regardless of the passage of the Bill. That appears to be the direction in which the Government are going, and it may be the right direction, but we should put it on record.
      Mr. Raynsford: My understanding is that all parties, including the local authority employers and the FBU, want a national agreement. They do not want regional bargaining or negotiation with individual fire authorities. It is in everybody's interest that we reach an agreed national settlement.
      John McDonnell: If we are to assist in the resolution of the dispute next week, it is important to achieve clarity in our debate. The union and the employers want a national settlement that applies to all parties, but the Burchill proposals allow for local resolution of individual issues, especially conditions and operational matters. That is the key message. Our concern is that the legislation offers a vista of detailed interference at local level if the agreement is not implemented. We need to assure the union and the employers that that is not the process that the Government envisage.
      Mr. Raynsford: I agree that everyone involved agrees that we seek a national settlement, not a fragmentation. The proposals that Professor Burchill made a couple of weeks ago are not on the table and do not form part of the current offer made by the employers and recommended by the FBU executive. Of course there will be a role for individual fire authorities in the future in assessing the appropriate way to respond to the needs of their areas. Indeed, they are preparing integrated risk management plans to ensure that they are well organised to meet those needs. However, as far as pay bargaining is concerned, the objective of all sides has been a national settlement. That remains the case, and the Government do not wish to do anything to prevent that from happening. We want to see a national settlement.
      Matthew Green: The Minister said that the Bill was compatible with article 6 of the European social charter because it would address a risk to public safety. However, the Bill makes no mention of public safety and it will confer a power that has nothing to do with a risk to public safety. That is not what the Minister intends, but will he make it clear that he will use the powers only in the case of a direct risk to public safety? If so, we will have no concerns about article 6.
      Mr. Raynsford: The theme that has been repeated time and again in the debate is the inevitable risk to the public of a continued or repeated incidence of industrial action in the fire service. If firefighters withdraw their labour, the public are put at risk, especially if the military resources, which have responded magnificently in the past, are seriously stretched and we cannot deploy comparable numbers. In that situation, the public would be at risk and the provisions of article 31 make it clear that any use of the powers would not be incompatible with the charter.
      Matthew Green: The Bill does not say that the powers will be used only in the event of strike action. The
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      powers could be used at any time, so I am giving the Minister the opportunity to say that he would use the powers only in cases of a threatened strike or actual strike action.
      Mr. Raynsford: I thought that the hon. Gentleman had heard me say that repeatedly. If he has not, I repeat that it is not our intention to use the powers in the Bill if a negotiated settlement is properly implemented. If not, and there is an industrial dispute, there will be a clear risk to the public and, therefore, the permissive powers in article 31 would bite and there would be no conflict with the charter.
      The second concern that the Joint Committee raised with me was about article 8 of the Labour Relations (Public Services) convention, known as ILO convention 151. The article requires that settlement of disputes about conditions of employment of public employees should
      "be sought … through negotiation … or through independent and impartial machinery".
      No one could argue that a settlement has not been sought through negotiation. We have done all that we can to encourage and facilitate that. The question is how long the fire service can go on seeking a settlement without finding one. Article 8 describes what should happen but does not define what to do when negotiation fails. That is what we are now seeking to address. I can therefore confirm—as I said on Second Reading—that in our view the provisions in the Bill are compatible with article 6 of the charter and article 8 of ILO convention 151. Requiring the publication of reports to that effect looks like just another obstacle put in place by Opposition Members. As we can give them the assurances that they seek now, there is no merit in delaying commencement of the Act.
      The powers in the Bill have a specific purpose: to draw a line under the present dispute so that the two sides can start afresh. We are heartened by the progress that they have made, and we are sure that the whole House hopes for a positive outcome, but we must be prepared for all eventualities. In the event of a negotiated settlement not being reached, accepting any of these amendments would delay a resolution to the dispute. I have made it clear that the Government are happy to accept amendment No. 17, but I request that all other amendments be withdrawn.
      Mr. Hammond: This has been a very interesting debate, if somewhat lengthy. The Minister's remarks about the time scale for the introduction of new legislation following the publication of the White Paper were entirely plausible, and I accept what he said. I suspect that some Labour Members may not have realised that the Government's intention was that the Bill should act as a bridge to a piece of permanent legislation covering the same areas. However, I certainly anticipated that that would be the Government's intention, so I am happy to accept the two-year sunset provision that the Minister deems adequate.
      It is amusing to think what the Minister's speech would have looked like if I had proposed a two-year sunset clause in amendment No. 35. and if the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) had proposed a period of 18 months in his amendment. No

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      doubt the Minister would have found time in the legislative timetable for the House to deem an 18-month period to be adequate. However, I am very happy with the outcome. The Government have cleared the first of the three hurdles set by my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis). I very much hope that we can continue to make progress in the same spirit, so that consideration of the Bill can be concluded with consensus on all sides.
      I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Mr. Hammond: I beg to move amendment No. 32, in page 1, line 4, at end insert—
      (1A) (a) Before making an order under section 1(1) the Secretary of State shall conduct a postal ballot of all Fire Brigade members for the purpose of ascertaining their views in relation to any order to be made under section 1(1) or any related matters which appears to the Secretary of State to be relevant.
      (b) The Secretary of State may direct any fire authority to supply him with such information as he may require to enable him to conduct a ballot under subsection 1(1A)(a).
      (c) It shall be the duty of a fire authority to comply with a direction given under subsection 1(1A)(b).'.
      The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sylvia Heal): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments:
      No. 33, in page 1, leave out lines 5 and 6.
      No. 25, in page 1, line 6, at end insert—
      '(1A) The Secretary of State may only make a order under section (1) above if an existing offer on pay and conditions made by relevant representatives of local fire authorities to the relevant representatives of fire brigade members has been voted upon in a secret postal ballot, in which all fire brigade members were sent a ballot paper, within the preceding three months.'.
      No. 26, in page 1, line 6, at end insert—
      '(1B) The conditions in section (1A) do not have to be met if the Secretary of State makes an order under (1)(a) to require fire brigade members to take part in a secret postal ballot organised by an appropriate independent body on an existing offer on pay and conditions made to them by relevant representatives of fire authorities.'.
      No. 27, in page 1, line 16, at end insert—
      '(2A) For the purposes of (1)(a) above, the Secretary of State can only fix or modify the conditions of service of fire brigade members if:

      (i) the new or modified conditions of service follow the recommendations of an independent arbitration process;

      (ii) the recommendations of such an independent arbitration process have been rejected either by relevant representatives of fire brigade member or by relevant representatives of fire authorities.'.

      No. 9, in page 1, line 20, after `body', insert 'for agreement'.
      No. 10, in page 1, line 25, at end insert—

      (d) secure the agreement of the negotiating body to the proposals for an order.

      (e) lay a report before Parliament on the views of the negotiating body on the proposal for an order'.

      No. 15, in clause 2, page 2, line 41, leave out 'some or all' and insert 'the majority of.
      Mr. Hammond: We now come to the second condition proposed by the Opposition. Amendment No. 32 would
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      introduce an obligation to conduct a postal ballot, but it would leave the Secretary of State with wide discretion as to the ballot's subject matter, whether it were the proposed order under clause 1(1) or any matter that appears to the Secretary of State to be relevant. Clearly, the intention is to give the Secretary of State the opportunity to put to FBU members in a postal ballot an offer that has been made and debated. If the amendment were to apply today, for example, the ballot would cover the employers' draft offer that is to be considered by the recalled FBU conference on 12 June. However, the amendment is drawn widely enough to allow the Secretary of State to put the content of his own proposed order to all employees in a ballot, regardless of whether the union chose to do so.
      It would be simpler, and preferable, if the principal unions involved were to organise proper postal ballots of all their members. However, amendment No. 32 would give the Secretary of State the power to deal with the situation where the unions do not organise such ballots.
      I thought very carefully about the wording of the amendment, and about whether the Secretary of State might need powers to require a third party such as a trade union, for example, to deliver information to him and thus enable him to hold such a ballot. I concluded that the fire authorities, being public statutory bodies, have control of all the information that he could need to conduct a ballot. The amendment is therefore drafted to require fire authorities to deliver information to him and places an obligation on them to comply with such a requirement. In that way, the Secretary of State can get the data that he needs to conduct a postal ballot without involving the unions. It thus avoids the need for penalties for non-compliance, and all the hullabaloo that would follow.
      6.15 pm
      In practice, of course, I would expect the Secretary of State to contract an external organisation to conduct a ballot. He might even agree that a trade union should conduct the ballot, or he might look to a third-party body such as the Electoral Reform Society.
      Amendment No. 33 is a drafting amendment that relates to matters dealt with in the previous group of amendments. I do not intend to say anything about it.
      I tabled amendment No. 32 because I am not convinced that the approach taken by Liberal Democrat Members with amendments Nos. 25 and 26 would work. Amendment No. 25 would not give the Secretary of State the power to make the order that amendment No. 26 refers to. I accept entirely that the intention behind that amendment is similar to that which underlies amendment No. 32, but amendment No. 32 is not a probing amendment. I hope that the Government will be able to accept it, so it was necessary to put it in a technically satisfactory form. Even so, I am very much on the same page as the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) and his colleagues.
      I understand that the Government also support the idea of a ballot of all fire brigade members to test any offer that might be on the table before a settlement is imposed. Certainly, the remarks made by the Minister in his winding-up speech on Second Reading suggest that he is sympathetic to the idea. Hon. Members of all

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      parties in this House, and people outside the House, would look askance if we did not seek to ensure that all relevant employees were given a proper chance to express their views on any negotiated settlement before we concluded that such a settlement was impossible and proceeded to allow the Secretary of State to impose his own settlement.
      Two agreements have been approved by the employers, the Government and the union's executive. One agreement was rejected, through the conference, by the union membership, and the other is to be tested on 12 June. I think that there is a broad feeling in the House that the pithead ballot method of mandating delegates to the conferences may be a problem. As I understand it, members at individual fire stations mandate a delegate, usually to a county meeting, by an open show of hands. At the county meeting, the position of the brigade representative will again be mandated by an open show of hands.
      The Government are seeking to change things, but I suspect that most people would acknowledge that the fire service, although not unique, is at the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to macho workplace environments. There will certainly be what might be described as peer pressure in the environment in which the ballots take place, and others might even describe it as intimidation. However, there is at least a hope that a postal ballot of all fire brigade members would allow more sober judgments to be made.
      Of course, I repeat that we all hope that sober judgment will prevail on 12 June. However, if it does not, I should not want to move to having a settlement imposed by the Secretary of State without taking the offer on the table now around the loop one more time. We should take it directly to fire brigade members through a postal ballot organised by, or on behalf of, the Secretary of State.
      Perhaps it would be useful to recap the present state of the dispute, as that is essentially the background to the postal ballot proposal. Pay claims of 40 per cent. for firefighters and 50 per cent. for control room staff remain on the table, without any commitment to reform of working practices. The employers tabled a final offer that was rejected in April after having been recommended to the work force by the FBU executive. The Government rejected the intervention by Professor Burchill on the ground that it would add costs of £100 million to the proposed settlement by watering down the link between modernisation and increased pay. Following that, the employers tabled a revised final offer. The FBU executive has again recommended to fire service personnel that the offer be accepted, and it has been approved by the Minister, on behalf of the Government. It will be voted on at a delegate conference on 12 June.
      Meanwhile the Government remain committed to the position that any settlement above inflation must be paid for through productivity: the modernisation agenda. The Government have stated repeatedly, and the Minister said again today, that they will not finance any of the proposed settlement. They will advance £30 million, to be repaid in future years, to deal with the cash-flow effects of funding a pay settlement immediately and then claw back savings through modernisation over time. The whole of the above-inflation element must be met by savings made through productivity gains.
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      In practical terms, if the revised final offer is agreed on 12 June, the measure is likely to be used only if the agreement were reneged on by members of fire brigades in one or more areas of the country. From previous experience, we know that militancy among firefighters varies enormously. Most hon. Members in the Chamber could reel off the names of three or four brigades where the implementation of an agreement could be difficult, although we would expect that, in many other brigades, an agreement reached on 12 June would be implemented smoothly.
      I do not want to talk down the chances of the conference, but we are considering a measure for use if 12 June does not go according to the Minister's plan. If the offer is rejected then, it is likely that it would, and should, be the one tested in any ballot prescribed by amendment No. 32. It is thus worth probing the Minister on some of the unanswered questions about the offer.
      On Second Reading, the Minister made much of the cost of the Burchill proposals, due to the weakening of the link between pay and the reform of working conditions. However, the revised offer omits the key words from the beginning of the first paragraph that I have already quoted: it is
      "a package agreement."
      It
      "depends on implementation of the entire package."
      Those words made it clear that pay and modernisation are linked, but they have gone from the latest draft.
      The previous version specified redeployment obligations. The section dealing with the duty system stated that there is:
      "an obligation for employees to be based and deployed anywhere and on any duties appropriate to their competence, within the reasonable requirements of the fire authority."
      Those words, too, are missing from the revised text, which has the new words
      "Pre-arranged overtime will not be used to make up any planned shortfall in the overall staffing levels set out in the fire authority's risk management plan."
      In that case, how is the fire authority to cover a staff shortfall to reach the level required by the integrated risk management plan?
      The reference to the joint secretaries and the independent chair of the national joint council being available to assist in the event of any disputes on implementation of the agreement has also been removed from the latest text. There is thus no clear procedure for dealing with implementation disputes.
      I know that the Minister scrutinised the text in detail before it was agreed by the employers and the FBU executive, but all those points seem to weaken the link between working practice reform and increased pay. They weaken the commitment to reform of working practices and, thus, on the Minister's logic as applied to the Burchill proposals, they reduce the likelihood of our being able swiftly and smoothly to implement the working practice reforms and harvest the savings.
      Given the Minister's comments about Burchill and his costing of the proposals at £100 million, can he quantify his Department's assessment of the extra cost of the revised final offer as opposed to the former final offer? In other words, what substance does he accord those significant changes of wording that I cited?

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      Will the Minister answer a question that I put to the Deputy Prime Minister on Second Reading? After the right hon. Gentleman's statement that the proposals were not an attack on firefighters' second jobs, I asked whether he could give an assurance that no individual firefighter would be forced to move to a different shift pattern. From my discussions with ordinary firefighters—not union activists—that seems to be the key issue; people do not want their daily life to be disrupted by fiat, but to have a say in the matter.
      I asked the Deputy Prime Minister if he could give such a commitment and he replied:
      "This is an important point, and I shall come exactly to it if the hon. Gentleman will allow me to complete my speech."
      Needless to say, the Deputy Prime Minister never came "exactly to it" and I should be most grateful if the Minister could throw any light on the question.
      On a related point, will the Minister address another of my concerns about the Deputy Prime Minister's statement on Second Reading, as it is relevant to the current package of proposals? The Deputy Prime Minister said:
      "Between now and 2005–06, the fire service will lose 1,500 firefighters through compulsory retirement at age 55."—[Official Report, 8 May 2003; Vol. 404, c. 863–65.]
      Wearing another of my hats, I am conscious of the article 13 directive and of the preparations being made by the Minister's colleagues to bring into UK law the requirement to remove discrimination on various grounds, including age. Is the Government's policy that the new arrangements in the fire service will preserve compulsory retirement from all posts at the age of 55? Is their assessment that such a policy will not fall foul of their proposals for the implementation of article 13 in respect of age discrimination? If compulsory retirement at age 55 is to go, the Deputy Prime Minister's assumption about natural wastage will be wrong.
      All those important issues relate to the offer on the table, which will, I hope, be accepted on 12 June. In that case, we need to understand the implications of the offer, so if the Minister can answer my questions, I hope that that will help to clarify matters. If the amendment is accepted, as I hope that it will be—
      Mr. Raynsford indicated dissent.
      Mr. Hammond: I am disappointed to see the Minister shaking his head. I hope that he has an extremely good reason for not accepting such a sensible amendment. If it were accepted, I should expect the current offer to be voted on in the sad event that agreement could not be reached on 12 June.
      I shall touch briefly on the Liberal Democrat amendment, No. 27. On Second Reading, the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) intervened on me to agree that the Deputy Prime Minister's powers under the Bill appeared to ignore the integrated risk management programmes. The right hon. Gentleman's powers are not constrained so that they can be used in a way that is supportive of the integrated risk management programmes adopted by individual fire authorities. However, amendment No. 27 also fails to address that point.
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      If the integrated risk management programme requires that conditions of service change, what is the relevance of arbitration? Clearly, delivery of the integrated risk management programme will require a change in those conditions of service. Arbitration can be used to settle pay—the compensation required to work under different conditions. That is a perfectly legitimate consideration, but to subject changes to other conditions to arbitration could undermine the integrated risk management programme, and I do not think that the hon. Member for Ludlow really wants to do that. Perhaps he is considering pay only. I look forward to him clarifying that point.
      6.30 pm
      Finally, I turn briefly to amendments Nos. 9, 10 and 15, which were tabled by the awkward squad on the Government Back Benches. Their effect would be disastrous and give the FBU a veto over any order that the Deputy Prime Minister might make under the powers granted to him by the Bill. If those who tabled the amendments are successful, we can be assured that our consideration today would be entirely wasted. The Bill would have no purpose whatever. The amendments would effectively allow the FBU to usurp Parliament's role, and that probably neatly encapsulates the bizarre and often offensive view that the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) takes of the world. These are wrecking amendments and not worthy of consideration in the House. If those Members want to wreck the Bill, the correct course of action for them is to vote against Third Reading, not to table such amendments. We certainly will not support them.
      Matthew Green: This group of amendments is particularly important because it addresses the issue of postal ballots. As the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) has suggested, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives come to the issue from broadly the same direction. He said that our amendments would not work, but I suspect that the wording of the Conservatives' amendments probably would not work either. The difficulty is that amendment No. 32 does not say that the ballot would decide whether FBU members have accepted the conditions. It says only that it would "ascertain their views". Therefore, it appears to be more a consultation than a ballot, and there is concern about the way in which it would be carried out.
      If the Minister cannot accept Conservative amendment No. 32 and our amendments Nos. 25 and 26, I hope that he will say that the Government can find a way of inserting similar provisions into the Bill. Because of the rush and the guillotine motion, the opportunity for the Government to do that on Report will be limited. However, the Bill has to go to another place and I hope that the Government will consider tabling an amendment there.
      Two issues of concern arise from what happened when the FBU executive accepted a settlement and it was rejected by a conference. The first was outlined by the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge. There is the potential for peer pressure to be exerted at a fire station when a show of hands mandates the person going to the conference.

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      The second concern is that a mandatory system can lead to the same problems that were faced in the last American presidential elections when fewer people voted for the current American President than voted for the Democrat candidate. That happened because people voted in areas for a mandated delegated to take a bloc vote forward. Under a mandatory system, even if secret ballots were held in fire stations, a majority of FBU members might want to accept a deal but the minority might be able to ensure that there were enough mandated votes to defeat them.
      Mr. Hammond: I have just examined the figures, and I doubt whether the hon. Gentleman needs to go as far as the United States. If he looks at his general election result, he will find that more people voted against him than for him.
      Matthew Green: I thank the hon. Gentleman for reminding me of that, but it is probably the case for many hon. Members. However, there is a slight difference. We are the representatives not the mandated delegates of our constituencies. My point about the American election was that, although the people from the individual states are technically representatives, they are to all intents and purposes mandated.
      The key point is that a secret postal ballot of all members would ascertain the view of the majority of FBU members. I have spoken to FBU members in Shropshire, and I am certain that a majority of them would have accepted the previous settlement. Indeed, many of us suspect that that is true across the country. A postal ballot would ensure that, instead of the Government imposition of a settlement, all the FBU's members would have an opportunity to decide whether to accept it. That must be preferable to the Secretary of State imposing a settlement.
      Amendments Nos. 25 and 26 may be technically defective but I suspect that Conservative amendment No. 32 is, too. We do not have the Minister's access to the skills of the parliamentary draftsmen, but I hope that he will accept that we have a strong point and that he will be willing to table amendments at a later stage to satisfy our demands. If he does, many of our overall concerns about the Bill will be removed.
      On amendment No. 27, I take on board what the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge said. It was our thinking that the provisions in the amendment should apply primarily to pay. Although the amendment may not be technically perfect, its intention is to ensure that the Secretary of State could modify the conditions of service only following the recommendations of an independent arbitration process. Clearly, as the hon. Gentleman attempted to elicit from the Minister, if a settlement from the Government is unfortunately needed, we hope that it would probably be the one on the table from the employers. It has gone through a process of arbitration, and the intention of the amendment is to ensure that that would happen in future.
      I accept that the amendment may not be perfect—I do not pretend that it is—but I hope that the Minister will accept the need for any pay settlement to be tested. I am sure that that is his intention, but the problem is that the Bill will effectively give him the powers to impose
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      whatever settlement he chooses. If the FBU reject the settlement, the Minister could in a mean-spirited mood suddenly say—I am sure that he and the Deputy Prime Minister would not do this— that the award will be 1 per cent. a year for the next three years. I am sure that that is not the Minister's intention, but the Bill would give him that power.
      Mr. Hammond: I am sure that that is not the Minister's intention However, he will leap to his feet to correct me if I am wrong when I say that I have the distinct impression that the Deputy Prime Minister told the House that, should the settlement currently on the table be rejected, it is likely that an imposed settlement would be less generous.
      Matthew Green: The hon. Gentleman may be right that that impression has been given. It is perhaps an attempt to force the union to accept the offer and we shall wait with interest to hear what the Minister says.
      The Bill gives Ministers open-ended powers to impose a settlement as they choose. Liberal Democrat amendments Nos. 25 to 27 suggest the use of ballots, arbitration or both as an attempt to ensure that Ministers could not abuse the process. I am sure that the Minister would not abuse the powers but they could be abused to achieve retribution for a long and drawn out dispute. I am sure that he will be only too keen to tell us that that is not the Government's intention. If that is the case, we would feel a great deal happier if the Bill included a provision indicating that the Government would propose a settlement that had been through arbitration or put to a ballot. They are two further ways in which our concerns about the Bill could be mollified.
      It has already been said that amendments Nos. 9. 10 and 15 are essentially wrecking amendments. They would take decision-making power away from everyone else and put that straight into the hands of the Fire Brigades Union. We have been in that position for at least a year and that is why the Government are doing what they are doing, although we would do things differently. The amendments would take us back to square one, meaning that we would have wasted all our time and effort on the Bill, so we shall not support them.
      However imperfect the various amendments in the group are, I hope that the Minister will say in the spirit of understanding that the Government will table amendments that will satisfy some of our worries. If he does that, the remaining significant concerns that we have about the Bill will be largely satisfied.
      John McDonnell: I shall speak to amendments Nos. 9, 10 and 15, which are tabled in my name. However, I set the amendments to one side because the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) referred to my offensive view of the world. I do not think that I have ever had a conversation with the hon. Gentleman—I offer him the opportunity to have that conservation now. If he was alluding to recent reports in The Sun, Daily Mail, or The Daily Telegraph, may I suggest that he reads my article in today's edition of The Guardian before he has a conversation with me, rather than making such allegations?
      Amendments Nos. 9 and 10 were not designed to be wrecking amendments. If the Bill had become permanent legislation without the sunset clause that we

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      have just agreed, it would have been the permanent negotiating machinery for the fire service in the future. The amendments would have introduced the requirement for a negotiated settlement before any order was brought forward—it is as simple as that. The amendments are no longer relevant because I hope that the implementation of the sunset clause will allow us to return to the normal negotiating process. Amendment No. 10 would have ensured that a report would be laid before Parliament on the views of the negotiating body on any proposal for an order. I thought that that would enhance the democratic process.
      I do not understand why amendment No. 15 is offensive. It would ensure only that the organisation that represented the workers in the industry would be the organisation representing the majority of the workers.
      Mr. Hammond: My reading of the amendment is that it refers to the employers' representatives, not the workers' representatives.
      John McDonnell: If that is the case, it is due to inaccurate drafting. The drafting was undertaken with the advice of the drafting Clerk. The word "majority" is meant to refer to the employees' overall representation—the majority union. There may well be a printing error. The words "some or all" in clause 2 will allow employees to be represented by a minority organisation. The amendment would ensure that the employees, at least, would be represented by the majority membership organisation. I cannot understand why that is offensive or undemocratic in any way.
      6.45 pm
      Mr. Raynsford: We have had an interesting debate that was enlivened by an interchange between the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) and the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond). The hon. Member for Ludlow referred to people who were elected by a minority of votes cast and the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge acutely and cruelly reminded him that he had been elected by a minority—the majority of people had voted against him. I did a little research and I can tell the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge that he is in the same position, because the majority of electors in his constituency voted against him. I am saying that from a fairly solid position because I know that he cannot say the same about me.
      Mr. Hammond: As the Minister has done his research so well, will he share with the Committee the size of the majorities that voted against the hon. Member for Ludlow and me?
      Mr. Raynsford: I shall not go into enormous detail because I fear that I will be out of order, but I concede that the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge secured 47 per cent. of the electorate in his constituency, which was a higher percentage than that secured by the hon. Member for Ludlow but a lesser percentage than the 60 per cent. secured by the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr. Raynsford).
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      It has been made clear that the amendments address two separate issues: the role of secret ballots and the steps that it is reasonable for the Secretary of State to take before using the powers that the Bill will confer on him. I shall address the issues in turn.
      We believe that secret ballots are a fundamental part of good industrial relations. Only industrial action that has the support of a ballot is protected under trade union legislation. It is well known that the Fire Brigades Union held a secret ballot before it embarked on the dispute in which a large majority of its members voted in favour of action. However, the union did not hold a ballot on whether to accept a particular offer, but on whether to take strike action. I do not hold that against the union because it was in line with section 229 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, which requires that a ballot should contain a question about strike action or industrial action short of a strike.
      The FBU has not balloted its members about any of the latest offers made by the employers. We should bear it in mind that the employers' offer at the time the ballot was held was only 4 per cent. over one year. The employers more recently offered 16 per cent. over two and a half years. We have repeatedly made clear our view that the FBU should put the employers' latest offer to a secret ballot of its members so that ordinary firefighters have the opportunity to make up their minds in private. The kind of collective meetings that are held to gauge opinion do not guarantee the fundamental principle of democracy that people should be able to express their view in a secret ballot. However, we have no plans to legislate to require the FBU to hold a secret ballot. Such an approach would mean treating the FBU differently from every other trade union, and there is no logical reason for doing that.
      Mr. Hammond: Will the Minister acknowledge that amendment No. 32 does not propose doing such a thing? It proposes giving the Secretary of State the discretionary power to order a secret ballot of all fire brigade members, not members of one or another union.
      Mr. Raynsford: I am well aware of that and I shall come on to the problems highlighted by that approach and the problems implicit in the ballot proposals made by the hon. Member for Ludlow.
      Let me address the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge first. Amendment No. 25 would mean that the Secretary of State could make an order only if a secret ballot of all fire brigade members on an employers' offer had been held in the previous three months. One problem with that is that there is no mechanism for a secret ballot of all fire brigade members. The FBU could ballot all its members, but not those who are members of other unions or of none.
      Mr. Hammond: Amendment No. 25 is a Liberal Democrat amendment. The hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) will have to answer for its defects. I shall answer for the defects of amendment No. 32 in due course.
      Mr. Raynsford: I apologise unreservedly. I have confused the order of the amendments because amendment No. 25 comes before amendment No. 32.

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      The problem with the Liberal Democrat proposal is that there is no mechanism by which a ballot of all members could be held. Other unions are involved and they could ballot their members, but they are not party to the negotiating body. Whether that is right or not is a different matter, but that is the situation and strictly speaking no offer can be made to them by the employers. It is not easy to understand how they could be asked to express a view when they are not party to an offer.
      Matthew Green: Those unions may not be party to the negotiations, but they will receive the benefits or otherwise of the settlement that is either negotiated or not, and it is right that they should be balloted as well. The amendment might not provide for how that ballot should be carried out, but it is not impossible for the Secretary of State to get the names and addresses of those people who work in the fire brigade.
      Mr. Raynsford: There may be a perfectly good justification, as an academic exercise, to test the views of all the people who work in the fire service, including those who are members of other unions such as the GMB, Unison, the National Association of Fire Officers and the Retained Firefighters Union, but that is not relevant to the negotiating procedure. We have said throughout the debate that we hope for a satisfactory outcome to the negotiations that have been going on for more than a year to resolve the dispute. The amendment would not help to resolve the dispute through the agreed negotiating procedure. Perhaps the procedure is not satisfactory and contains inequities that the hon. Gentleman might want to change, but we have to deal with the existing machinery.
      Mr. Hammond: I suspect that the Minister will apply the same criticism to my amendment. I recognise that what he is saying is true, but as far as I am concerned the purpose of the ballot is twofold: to test opinion and to make that opinion widely known before the Secretary of State intervenes with his leaden-booted power to impose a settlement, and to create an environment in which the Secretary of State's own proposed solution can be given legitimacy. If the vast majority of members of fire brigades accept a settlement, the Secretary of State would have a good basis on which to impose it. The militants might rail against that, but the great majority of people in the country would see it as fair and reasonable.
      Mr. Raynsford: I shall come in a moment to the procedures that we will adopt. They will ensure that the Secretary of State seeks evidence of opinion before imposing a solution. There will be no question of a "leaden-booted" solution without consultation and an attempt to gain a full understanding of the views of those involved in the fire service.
      Angela Watkinson: Will the Minister acknowledge that the problem with the existing negotiating method is that firefighters are being asked to agree to a pay settlement that is linked to changes in their conditions of service? As those will arise from the risk review, they are as yet unknown. The firefighters do not know what they
      74
      are being asked to agree to, which is why we need a separate arrangement for them to be consulted in this instance.
      Mr. Raynsford: I agree that there are uncertainties. That is one reason why individual firefighters may have been nervous about accepting the generous 16 per cent. offer on the table. Compared with what most other public sector workers are being offered, that is a good deal. However, I accept that uncertainty exists. In my judgment, it has been a major cause of alarm for many firefighters. That is why the employers' latest offer makes a number of changes to the text. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge mentioned those. They have been proposed to deal with the anxieties and concerns felt by many firefighters.
      The introduction of the new arrangements following integrated risk management plans is likely to give rise to changes, but it is our understanding that the majority of firefighters will continue to operate the same shift system. The numbers who might be asked to move to a different shift system will be relatively small. That should be containable on a voluntary basis. In any case, different shift systems will be attractive to firefighters who do not find the present shift system wholly conducive to family life, for example. There are alternatives. It will be up to individual fire authorities to explore those, but it is our understanding that that is compatible with a consensual way forward that does not impose unreasonable changes or prevent firefighters from operating a similar shift system.
      Angela Watkinson: One of the major concerns is that the watches of firefighters who work closely together and know one another well will be broken up. They know their colleagues' strengths and weaknesses and how they will react in life-endangering situations. Similarly, leading firefighters who are managing a fire know the strengths and weaknesses of the members of the watches to whom they are giving instructions. There is a concern that operational efficiency could be jeopardised by people working together at random. If they are not used to working together, they will not be as efficient or effective as the established watches.
      Mr. Raynsford: I hear what the hon. Lady says and I know that some firefighters are concerned about that, but many fire stations already have mixed crewing whereby a full-time crew and a retained crew operate from the same station. The flexibility that allows those arrangements will often ensure a more effective response in a cost-effective way. It will be for each fire authority, under the integrated risk management plan process, to explore how it can best meet the needs of its area to provide the most effective service. That is what we are about. We are interested in safety and in ensuring the most effective response to the risks of fire. We want to achieve that in a more cost-effective way than often applies at the moment, because constant crewing can result in inefficiencies.
      The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge asked whether the changes to the text on overtime would make it impossible for employers to make the savings that had been envisaged. That is a classic example of one of the changes that was designed to allay anxieties. It was thought that firefighters might assume that fire

      75
      authorities or chief fire officers would reduce the numbers of employed firefighters and force up hours through overtime to compensate. That is not the intention. The objective is to allow extra flexibility. For example, if gaps are caused by sickness or other absences, that could be covered by overtime, but it should not justify reducing establishments arbitrarily to put them below the level that would be regarded as appropriate to provide proper fire cover.
      Flexibility is very much the objective. That must be understood widely. It is in all our interests that we have the most effective fire service possible. No one wants the fire service damaged by change. Modernisation is not about reducing the quality of service or putting the public at risk. On the contrary: it is about ensuring a more effective response that accepts the need to do more on prevention while ensuring the continuation of a highly effective responsive service when fires occur.
      7 pm
      One of the things that causes me the greatest alarm and concern is evidence of the growing number of fires that could have been prevented. There is a serious upward trend in incidents of arson, and more effective action is necessary to tackle that. There is still an extremely high number of false alarms: crews are dispatched for no good purpose because of malfunctioning alarms and other such incidents. Again, more effective action must be taken to ensure that people can concentrate on the important job of preventing fires and tackling them where they occur. That is what modernisation is about.
      Those are decisions that must be taken in the light of local circumstances, and that is what integrated risk management plans are about. The employers' aim is to ensure that that is better understood by firefighters, who have, in part by misinformation that has been put about, been led to believe that the proposals are a serious threat to their future, to their patterns of work and to the safety of the public.
      Mr. Hammond: The Minister says that overtime would not be used routinely. I am confused, because the Deputy Prime Minister has previously said in the House that it is absurd that firefighters can have second jobs as cab drivers, gardeners or decorators, but that they cannot when off duty deploy their skills as firefighters in retained duty. I thought that the Deputy Prime Minister was advocating encouraging firefighters to deploy as much time as they want to for the benefit of the fire service. Now, the offer appears to impose a limit on the amount of overtime.
      Mr. Raynsford: That is not the case. There is something curious about the FBU having regarded it as appropriate for firefighters, if they wish, to work in their spare time as taxi drivers, decorators or whatever, but not to work as firefighters, either doing overtime at their own fire station, or acting as retained firefighters in another area, perhaps the one in which they live. The option under discussion will allow greater flexibility and ensure a more effective and more cost-effective service, but it is not designed artificially to depress the number
      76
      of firefighters employed regularly. It may well be that it will result in savings and in reductions to the establishment being possible, because the establishment may artificially be higher than it needs to be because of the current ban on overtime; but there is a difference between that and deliberately depressing numbers through excessive use of overtime.
      Mr. Hammond: But how can the firefighters who want to give up their second job outside and to deploy themselves for the benefit of the fire service do so, given that the draft text states, at paragraph 3.8, that employees will be free to undertake pre-arranged overtime at premium rates of pay for no more than 24 hours per month?
      Mr. Raynsford: Clearly, it is not sensible for firefighters to work a full-time job as well as a long period of overtime—more than 24 hours a month. Safety is an issue. The proposal is about allowing greater flexibility than comes from making overtime impossible while rightly respecting the concerns of firefighters, their union and chief fire officers that firefighters should not be put in a position where they are exhausted by working excessive overtime. These are practical, sensible, common-sense arrangements that are designed to ensure a better fire service, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman accepts that.
      Amendment No. 26 provides an alternative to amendment No. 25, perhaps because the hon. Member for Ludlow realised that amendment No. 25 was not a practical proposition. Under amendment No. 26, the Secretary of State may make an order requiring a secret postal ballot of all fire brigade members about an existing offer, organised independently. Similarly, amendment No. 32 suggests that the Secretary of State should conduct a postal ballot on his own proposals to make an order, rather than on an offer by the employers.
      The difficulty that I have with the amendments is that what is proposed would take time without getting anywhere. Under the normal process of negotiation, employers and unions discuss; they reach an agreement that the negotiators think acceptable, which is put to their members for endorsement. They may, in some cases, use a secret ballot as part of that process. The powers in the Bill are not designed to deal with those circumstances. They are designed to deal with the different and exceptional situation in which the normal process has broken down, not to enable the whole thing to be rerun by the Government.
      Anyway, it is not clear what we would do with the results of a ballot. If it were a ballot about an offer made by the employers and the offer had been rejected, we would not necessarily impose it. An offer linking pay rises to changes in working practices, like the one on the table now, is designed to work with the agreement of both sides. I am sure that hon. Members accept that what can be achieved by agreement between two parties acting in good faith is often different from what can be achieved by imposition. If no agreement is reached by the negotiating body, it does not follow that we would or could simply impose the same deal as the employers put forward. If we have to use the powers, we must be able to act decisively on the basis of our own judgment.
      That does not mean that we would act unreasonably. The Bill as it stands requires the Secretary of State to consult the negotiating body—that is, the employers

      77
      and the FBU—before he makes an order. He must give them at least 21 days to comment on his proposals, then consider any comments they make. My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister said on Second Reading that he would also consult the statutory advisers, the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council. That body, which is chaired by the Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Mr. Leslie), includes a number of organisations and trade unions that are not on the negotiating body. That is a way of engaging some of the other groups that would not otherwise be involved in the current negotiating procedures. We have made it clear that we would not use the powers arbitrarily. They are there to enable us to act decisively, but after consultation with those affected. That must be the right approach.
      Amendment No. 27 appears to be designed as a hurdle to be jumped before an order setting or modifying conditions of service can be made—another hurdle that does nothing to help to create an effective fire service.
      Matthew Green: The Minister describes the amendment as a hurdle, but all our amendments are attempts to ensure that if the Secretary of State imposes a settlement, he does so with at least some indication that a fair number of fire brigade members will support it. The Secretary of State can impose a settlement, but that does not mean that fire brigade members will turn up for work. That is why the amendments are important.
      Mr. Raynsford: We discussed that issue at some length on Second Reading. We have made it clear that the route followed in the Bill is designed to cope with the current situation. We are acting reluctantly—these are not powers that we want to use, but we have to have them in case a settlement is not reached through the normal negotiating procedures. We hope that one will be reached, but the Bill will be there as a stop-gap. If a settlement is not reached, we have to be able to act decisively. The hurdles erected by the amendments would make that impossible.
      Under amendment No. 27, an order would have to follow the recommendations of an independent arbitration process. The implication of that is that the Secretary of State could not impose changes proposed by the employers—or by a union—unless they had been recommended by an independent arbitrator, let alone changes that he thinks are appropriate. That goes against the whole thrust of the Bill, which is that if the two parties to the negotiation cannot agree, the Secretary of State with responsibility for the provision of an effective fire service and for public funding of that service should step in and make a settlement.
      That requires some hard decisions, and those decisions cannot and should not simply be handed over to a third party. The issues that have caused the most difficulty in the current dispute include how the fire service should move from prescribed national fire cover standards to local risk-based approaches to fire cover, and what the implications are for staff—the very points made by the hon. Member for Upminster (Angela Watkinson). Those are serious issues requiring serious answers, but they are not necessarily issues capable of arbitration.
      78
      In the end, one cannot arbitrate about policy questions, such as the right basis for fire cover. One can arbitrate about some of the implications, especially for pay, but it is hard to see how even the best independent arbitrator would be better placed to make informed judgments about issues such as the appropriate level of fire cover, and how new shift systems might be introduced in a way that achieves both a more effective and safer service and cost savings, than a professional who is expert in the field. It is difficult to envisage how that could happen.
      I understand the purpose behind the amendment, but it is not realistic. We do not believe that it would work. The Government must have policy responsibility rather than handing these matters over to somebody else. Even if an arbitrator were involved, there is another hurdle in the amendment. The recommendations have to be rejected by one side or the other before the Secretary of State can make an order. The history of the current dispute shows that things can drag on for long periods without a clear outcome. After all, the FBU executive first felt able to recommend to its members an offer from the employers on 18 March. However, that did not lead to a clear outcome. We must be able to deal with a situation in which there has not been outright rejection. Yet the amendment would make it impossible for us to act if there had not been outright rejection by one party. That is a clear obstacle and such a procedure would not work. If it is wished to have an effective power to deal with the dispute, and if the dispute is not resolved otherwise, the amendment should be withdrawn.
      I am equally unable to accept amendments Nos. 9, 10 and 15, which were tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). Amendment No. 9 would mean that the Secretary of State could only fix or modify firefighters' conditions of service with the agreement of the negotiating body.
      Our strategy is bringing forward the Bill is to draw a line under the dispute by making a fair and reasonable award. We are doing this in a situation where the negotiating body—the national joint council—has so far failed to reach agreement for nearly a year. Against that background, it is hardly likely that both sides of the NJC would be able to agree on the terms of any settlement proposed by Ministers.
      As we have made repeatedly clear, we have no wish to use the powers that the Bill would confer. There is still time for the two sides to reach agreement, and we very much hope that they will. We welcome the progress that has been made over the recent period. That has been made in the knowledge that if there is no agreement the Government will have the powers to impose a settlement. It is not for me to say how much the two sides may have been influenced by the knowledge that we are bringing forward the Bill, but it is clearly one factor. Accepting my hon. Friend's amendments on this point would therefore be counterproductive.
      Amendment No. 10 would also require the Secretary of State to lay before Parliament a report of the views of the negotiating body on his proposals to make an order. That seems to me unnecessary. It would clearly be open to the negotiating body to make public its views, but that should be a matter for that body. The Secretary of State, at all events, will have to justify his decision to the House if the order is subject to challenge. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge made it clear

      79
      that in the event of any order being made to impose pay and conditions, he would ensure that it was challenged. There would be a full opportunity for the House to question the Secretary of State on this issue if the matter were ever to come to that stage.
      Amendment No. 15 would mean that the negotiating body would need to be constituted so that it represented the "majority" of fire authorities, rather than "some or all", as the Bill is drafted.
      John McDonnell: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
      Mr. Raynsford: I understand that my hon. Friend has said that that was not his intention. There has been a drafting error. I understand that he was seeking a framework that would refer to a majority of employees in the service. I hope that he will accept that the arrangement that we are putting in place will ensure that the Secretary of State must be satisfied that the negotiating body is constituted in accordance with appropriate arrangements for the negotiation of conditions of service of fire brigade members. That is provided by the provisions in clause 2(2)(b). I hope that my hon. Friend will understand that that effectively gives him the object that he is seeking. I ask him and other hon. Members to withdraw their amendments, which in our view are not necessary.
      Mr. Hammond: I am disappointed with what the Minister has had to say. On Second Reading, in respect of secret ballots, the Minister said:
      "I make it clear to the House that my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister and I have said, on several occasions, that that could be a sensible way forward."—[Official Report, 8 May 2003; Vol. 404, c. 920.]
      In good faith we have proposed a set of amendments that would ensure that the grass roots, the fire brigades' members, were properly consulted and their opinion tested before the draconian powers that the Secretary of State is taking were implemented and acted upon.
      I think that the Minister has been slightly disingenuous in his response. He said that he would show why amendment No. 32 was technically defective and he has not. He has said that the amendment did not create the possibility of putting an existing offer on the table to a ballot. It does, by allowing the Secretary of State to consult fire brigades' members on any other matter that he considers relevant. I do not think that the Minister has made a case against the secret ballot test. We have made it clear that that is one of our conditions for being able to support this draconian emergency legislation, and I am disappointed that the Minister has not risen to that challenge. I will therefore be urging my right hon. and hon. Friends to vote for amendment No. 32.
      Question put, That the amendment be made:—
      The House divided: Ayes 166, Noes 291.

      Division No. 214]

      [7:15 pm

      AYES

      Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

      Bacon, Richard

      Allan, Richard

      Baker, Norman

      Amess, David

      Baldry, Tony

      Arbuthnot, rh James

      Barker, Gregory

      Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

      Baron, John (Billericay)

      80

      Barrett. John

      Johnson, Boris (Henley)

      Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)

      Keetch, Paul

      Beith, rh A. J.

      Laing, Mrs Eleanor

      Bellingham, Henry

      Lait, Mrs Jacqui

      Bercow, John

      Lamb, Norman

      Beresford, Sir Paul

      Lansley, Andrew

      Blunt, Crispin

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Boswell, Tim

      Letwin, rh Oliver

      Brady, Graham

      Liddell-Grainger, Ian

      Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

      Lidington, David

      Brazier, Julian

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Breed, Colin

      Loughton, Tim

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

      Browning, Mrs Angela

      McIntosh, Miss Anne

      Burnett, John

      Maclean, rh David

      Burns, Simon

      McLoughlin, Patrick

      Burnside, David

      Maples, John

      Burstow, Paul

      Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

      Butterfill, John

      Mercer, Patrick

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

      Cameron, David

      Campbell, Gregory (E Lond'y)

      Moore. Michael

      Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)

      Murrison, Dr. Andrew

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Norman, Archie

      Chidgey, David

      O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

      Chope, Christopher

      Öpik, Lembit

      Clappison, James

      Osborne, George (Tattoo)

      Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Page, Richard

      Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

      Paice, James

      Collins, Tim

      Pickles, Eric

      Conway, Derek

      Portillo, rh Michael

      Cormack, Sir Patrick

      Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

      Curry, rh David

      Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)

      Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

      Pugh, Dr. John

      Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

      Redwood, rh John

      Rendel, David

      Djanogly, Jonathan

      Robathan, Andrew

      Dodds, Nigel

      Robertson, Angus (Moray)

      Donaldson, Jeffrey M.

      Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)

      Ewing, Annabelle

      Fallon, Michael

      Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

      Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)

      Robinson, Mrs Iris (Strangford)

      Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

      Flight, Howard

      Ruffley, David

      Forth, rh Eric

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      Salmond, Alex

      Fox, Dr. Liam

      Sanders, Adrian

      Francois, Mark

      Sayeed, Jonathan

      Gale, Roger (N Thanet)

      Selous, Andrew

      Garnier, Edward

      Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian

      George, Andrew (St. Ives)

      Simmonds, Mark

      Goodman, Paul

      Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

      Gray, James (N Wilts)

      Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

      Grayling, Chris

      Green, Damian (Ashford)

      Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

      Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

      Spicer, Sir Michael

      Gummer, rh John

      Spink, Bob (Castle Point)

      Hague, rh William

      Stanley, rh Sir John

      Hammond, Philip

      Steen, Anthony

      Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)

      Stunell, Andrew

      Swayne, Desmond

      Hawkins, Nick

      Syms, Robert

      Hayes, John (S Holland)

      Taylor, Ian (Esher)

      Heald, Oliver

      Taylor, John (Solihull)

      Heath, David

      Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

      Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

      Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

      Henclry, Charles

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Hermon, Lady

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Hogg, rh Douglas

      Tredinnick, David

      Holmes, Paul

      Trimble, rh David

      Horam, John (Orpington)

      Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

      Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

      Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

      Tyrie, Andrew

      Jack, rh Michael

      Waterson, Nigel

      Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

      Watkinson, Angela

      81

      Whittingdale, John

      Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)

      Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

      Wiggin, Bill

      Wishart, Pete

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

      Younger-Ross, Richard

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Willis, Phil

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Wilshire, David

      Mrs. Cheryl Gillan and

      Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

      Mr. Mark Hoban

      NOES

      Ainger, Nick

      Cruddas, Jon

      Alexander, Douglas

      Cummings, John

      Allen, Graham

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Davidson, Ian

      Atherton, Ms Candy

      Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

      Atkins, Charlotte

      Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

      Austin, John

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Bailey, Adrian

      Denham, rh John

      Baird, Vera

      Dhanda, Parmjit

      Banks, Tony

      Dismore, Andrew

      Barnes, Harry

      Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

      Battle, John

      Dobson, rh Frank

      Bayley, Hugh

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      Beard, Nigel

      Drew, David (Stroud)

      Begg, Miss Anne

      Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

      Benn, Hilary

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Bennett, Andrew

      Edwards, Huw

      Benton, Joe (Bootle)

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Berry, Roger

      Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

      Best, Harold

      Farrelly, Paul

      Belts, Clive

      Fisher, Mark

      Blackman, Liz

      Fitzpatrick, Jim

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Blunkett, rh David

      Flint, Caroline

      Boateng, rh Paul

      Follett, Barbara

      Borrow, David

      Foster, rh Derek

      Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

      Foster Michael (Worcester)

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye

      Bradshaw, Ben

      Brennan, Kevin

      Foulkes rh George

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      Browne, Desmond

      Gapes Mike (Ilford S)

      Buck, Ms Karen

      Gardiner, Barry

      Burden, Richard

      George, rh Bruce (Walsall)

      Burnham, Andy

      Gerrard, Neil

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Gilroy, Linda

      Cairns, David

      Godsiff, Roger

      Camphell, Alan (Tynemouth)

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

      Casale, Roger

      Caton, Martin

      Grogan, John

      Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

      Hain, rh Peter

      Challen, Colin

      Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

      Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands

      Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

      Harman, rh Ms Harriet

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston

      Healey, John

      Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

      Coaker, Vernon

      Hendrick, Mark

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Hepburn, Stephen

      Cohen, Harry

      Heppell, John

      Coleman, Iain

      Hesford, Stephen

      Colman, Tony

      Heyes, David

      Connarty, Michael

      Hill, Keith (Streatham)

      Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

      Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)

      Cooper, Yvette

      Hoon, rh Geoffrey

      Corbyn, Jeremy

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Corston, Jean

      Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

      Cousins, Jim

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E

      Cranston, Ross

      Crausby, David

      Howells, Dr. Kim

      82

      Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)

      Mudie, George

      Mullin, Chris

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)

      Hutton, rh John

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Iddon, Dr. Brian

      Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

      Illsley, Eric

      O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

      Ingram, rh Adam

      Olner, Bill

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      O'Neill, Martin

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

      Organ, Diana

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

      Owen, Albert

      Jamieson, David

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Jenkins, Brian

      Picking, Anne

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Pickthall, Colin

      Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

      Pike, Peter (Burnley)

      Jones, Kevan (N Durham)

      Plaskitt, James

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      Pollard, Kerry

      Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

      Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

      Pound, Stephen

      Keen, Ann (Brentford)

      Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E

      Kemp, Fraser

      Khabra, Piara S.

      Prescott, rh John

      King, Andy (Rugby)

      Primarolo, rh Dawn

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Purchase, Ken

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Purnell, James

      Kumar, Dr. Ashok

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Lammy, David

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

      Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Raynsford, rh Nick

      Lepper, David

      Reed, Andy (Loughborough)

      Leslie, Christopher

      Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Love, Andrew

      Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Luke, Iain (Dundee E)

      Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Rooney, Terry

      McCabe, Stephen

      Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

      McCartney, rh Ian

      Ruane, Chris

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester

      MacDonald, Calum

      McDonnell, John

      Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

      MacDougall, John

      Savidge, Malcolm

      McFall, John

      Sawford, Phil

      McGuire, Mrs Anne

      Shaw, Jonathan

      McIsaac, Shona

      Sheerman, Barry

      McKechin, Ann

      Sheridan, Jim

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      Smith, Angela (Basildon)

      McWalter, Tony

      Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

      McWilliam, John

      Smith, John (Glamorgan)

      Mahon, Mrs Alice

      Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

      Mallaber, Judy

      Southworth, Helen

      Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

      Spellar, rh John

      Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

      Squire, Rachel

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

      Steinberg, Gerry

      Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

      Martlew, Eric

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      Merron, Gillian

      Stoate, Dr. Howard

      Michael, rh Alun

      Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

      Milburn, rh Alan

      Stringer, Graham

      Miliband, David

      Sutcliffe, Gerry

      Miller, Andrew

      Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

      Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

      Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

      Mole, Chris

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Moonie, Dr. Lewis

      Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

      Moran, Margaret

      Timms, Stephen

      Morgan, Julie

      Tipping, Paddy

      Morley, Elliot

      Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

      Mountford, Kali

      Trickett, Jon

      83

      Truswell, Paul

      Winnick, David

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C

      Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)

      Wood, Mike (Batley)

      Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

      Woodward, Shaun

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Woolas, Phil

      Ward, Claire

      Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston

      Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

      Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth

      Watts David

      White, Brian

      Wright, David (Telford)

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Williams, Betty (Conwy)

      Mr. Ivor Caplin and

      Wills, Michael

      Derek Twigg

      Question accordingly negatived.
      7.30 pm
      John McDonnell: I beg to move amendment No. 3, in page 1, line 5, leave out 'or disposal'.
      The First Deputy Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments:
      No. 4, in line 6, leave out 'property or'.
      No. 5, in line 9, leave out 'or disposal'.
      No. 6, in page 2, line 2, leave out 'property or'.
      No. 11, in line 5, leave out 'as he thinks fit' and insert
      'including the Members of Parliament and local authorities for the area served by the facilities'.
      No. 12, in line 5, at end insert
      'and lay before Parliament a report on these consultations'.
      No. 7, in page 3, line 1, leave out 'property or'.
      No. 8, in page 3, leave out line 3.
      John McDonnell: I shall be fairly brief in speaking to the amendments. I tabled them because there is some anxiety that the Secretary of State is taking significant powers of detail. In particular, the provision on disposal of property is a remarkable power of detail if it is to involve the wholesale closure and sale of individual fire stations. The amendments give the Government the opportunity to reassure the general public that the power will not be used extensively for the closure of fire stations.
      In addition, I have tabled amendments that would reinforce the rights of individual Members of Parliament and local authorities to be consulted on any local changes in practice involving the dispersal of facilities in an area. I accept that section 19 of the Fire Services Act 1947 has been amended in previous legislation, but it would be helpful for the Government to reassure Members and others that, where the powers are to be exercised, there will be consultation with Members of Parliament and local authorities. As the Bill stands, the Secretary of State can consult whomsoever he thinks fit, but I think that we need to tighten the legislation to ensure that Members of Parliament have a role in their area.
      In addition, I suggest that when the consultations have taken place, a report should be laid before Parliament. I am not proposing that there should be reports on all individual consultations about minor changes of practice, but I believe that at least some form of conglomerate report should be made regularly, so that we can have an overview of the changes of practice
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      that are taking place in our name as a result of the legislation. Such a report could be made annually or when the Secretary of State sees fit, but it would give the House an opportunity to assess the implications of the Bill and how effective the changes are locally in practice, especially with regard to the introduction of risk management.
      The amendments on property are probing amendments that seek to tease out the Government's intentions with regard to the specific interventions that they envisage on the disposal and dispersal of property. It would be helpful if the Minister enlightened and reassured us that the provision is not about the wholesale selling off of fire stations, that Members of Parliament and local authorities will have a distinctly direct consultative role in respect of any changes and that Parliament will have an overview.
      Mr. Hammond: I have a few questions for the Minister about the powers to direct property and assets, and I want to try to get some clarity about precisely what the Government have in mind.
      Primarily, I want to clarify whether the purpose of the powers in clause 1(2) is to implement integrated risk management plans. If so, would it not have been better to include a specific reference on the face of the Bill? Such plans will be prepared after proper consultation. The Minister has already issued a circular setting out the consultation that he expects. If the powers set out in subsection (2) explicitly related to the implementation of adopted integrated risk management plans, it would be relatively easy to justify them, although the need for them would not be so clear. Perhaps the Minister has it in mind that some fire authorities may not have the bottle to implement their own integrated risk management plans and to make the necessary changes, and that they may need the Secretary of State to come along and stiffen their resolve by using his powers to impose the changes that their fully consulted on and properly adopted plans envisage.
      That is one possible scenario, but it is equally credible to suggest that the powers will be intended primarily to direct the use of assets. In that regard, I take it that the word "disposal" has two possible meanings—the transferral of land ownership or simply making something available in the short term. For example, the provision could be used by the Secretary of State to prevent firefighters from having access to fire service buildings during a strike. It could be used to direct that appliances be made available to military firefighters or—perhaps this is not beyond the realms of possibility—private contractors undertaking a firefighting role in the absence of the regular firefighters.
      It is very important that we understand precisely how the Minister envisages that the powers will be used. If he envisages that they will be used in different ways, the Committee must be clear about that. The three options, as I see them, are as follows. The powers may be used to implement approved integrated risk management plans. They may be used to implement change where a fire authority—let us take Avon at random—fails to propose a proper integrated risk management plan that the Secretary of State can endorse. Finally, they could be wholly related to contingency planning in the event of a strike.

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      If the Minister is going to tell us that the powers are to be used for the implementation of integrated risk management plans that have been subject to the proper procedure, the concerns addressed by amendments Nos. 10 and 11 will be dealt with, as the plans will have involved proper consultation. However, if he can at least envisage using the powers because of the failure to produce a plan, it will be perfectly logical to suggest that there should be a consultation process that parallels the consultation that would have taken place if a plan had been prepared and proposed.
      My concern remains that the Government will face a major task and a genuine problem in convincing the public that changes that appear to be cuts, as they reduce the number of appliances, fire stations or firefighters, are risk-driven rather than cost-driven. Given the statements that have already been made and repeated today that any pay settlement has to be funded out of savings made through modernisation, I suggest to the Minister that it is very important that any rationalisation of assets imposed by ministerial order must be seen to have been subjected to the proper and rigorous process that is proposed with regard to the preparation of the integrated risk management plan. I have described at least one scenario involving long-term permanent change that could not happen without the introduction of a consultative procedure somewhat akin to those proposed by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). The imposition of such changes without the consultation process envisaged in the circular would only increase the risk of public scepticism.
      I should he grateful if the Minister would address specifically each of the three possible uses of the powers in relation to property and assets and explain whether those are uses that he intends and, in each case, how he intends to use them.
      Part of the confusion in my mind arises from something that the Deputy Prime Minister said on Second Reading, namely:
      "As for whether the use of the facilities themselves will be necessary."—
      this is, believe it or not, a direct quote—
      "I hope that if a difficult stage is reached during arbitration and fear is generated, fire stations will be available. On occasion even some fire authorities have made it clear that in such circumstances they would not be available. I had the rather quaint idea that the fire stations belonged to the public, although in one or two cases I have felt doubtful about whether that is so.
      That was a flippant remark, but I think that hon. Members will know what I mean."—[Official Report, 8 May 2003; Vol. 404, c. 861.]
      I have to confess that I have not the faintest idea what he meant. If the Minister can clarify the Government's position, as outlined in that statement by the Deputy Prime Minister, he will be doing the House a favour, and he is a better man than I am.
      Mr. Drew: I rise to make a narrow point, on which I hope my hon. Friend the Minister will be able to allay my fears, concerning the possible disposal of assets. That always raises alarm in rural areas. Under the previous Conservative Government, we regularly had to run campaigns—we were a campaigning party—against proposed closures of rural retained stations. I am unclear as to how that would play in relation to the Bill.
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      I am even more mystified in that I was persuaded to support the changes to section 19 to the Local Government Bill on the basis that the Government were introducing sensible changes to the labyrinthine mechanism by which any changes in the disposal of assets—changing the location of stations and so on—should, instead of being left in the hands of the Secretary of State or his nominee, be decided locally. As a great believer in decentralisation, I thought that that was a good move. Such decisions should be made locally and the people who make them should be accountable locally. That was the right way to go about it. Yet the Bill seems to say something different and almost contradictory—that if and when a problem arose as regards the way in which pay and conditions were introduced nationally, the Secretary of State or his nominee could decide that it would be sensible, whether in terms of finances or the notion of integrated risk management, to close or move a particular station. We all know the type of reaction that that would cause locally. People in Painswick in my constituency have already run too many campaigns to save stations, and they certainly do not want to have to do so under a Labour Government.
      Will the Minister confirm where these powers might be introduced, whether the Bill contradicts the Local Government Bill, and whether we will find that the White Paper clarifies the position? We need to know that local people will have a say in how a fire authority's management are able to exercise their powers, so that there is no confusion and we do not end up in a real mess over who is able to take the decision and where the blame lies.
      7.45 pm
      Matthew Green: I do not feel able to support the amendments, but they give us the opportunity to ask the Minister a series of questions.
      My reading of the Bill was that the point of use and disposal is that in the event of industrial action the Secretary of State could make facilities available to the military or others. That should not be embarked on lightly, even in a dispute, but presumably we are reaching the stage where the Minister thinks that it may he necessary to have that power, or at least to have it in reserve. However, the word "disposal" has more than one meaning, so will he clarify exactly what it means in this context? The explanatory notes do not help to make that any clearer. They say:
      "Examples of purposes for which this power might be useful are to provide joint control rooms".
      Would that be during a dispute or permanently? We are not given an answer to that. In Shropshire, all of us, including the FBU, want a joint control room—only the Government are standing in our way.
      The hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) suggested that the Bill may give the Secretary of State the power suddenly to announce that he is closing half the rural retained fire stations in Ludlow. I hope that the Bill does not give the Secretary of State such a power, which I would resist at all costs. I do not believe that that is what the Minister is trying to achieve, and I hope that he will

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      reassure us that the Bill is about the events and circumstances of an ongoing dispute and securing public safety during only the time of that dispute.
      Mr. Llwyd: In any legal sense, the word "disposal" has to mean "to get rid of". The Bill refers to "use or disposal", not "use and disposal". That leads me to believe that it means the transfer of property, which, in this context, may mean the sell-off of rural stations, as the hon. Member for Stroud suggested. The clause must be read in conjunction with the repeal of section 19, which makes it all the more urgent and important. I have no hesitation whatever in supporting the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and others.
      It is only right that there should be an understanding that rural stations are extremely important to communities. I shall give a brief example of that concern. About four months ago, I met the north Wales fire chief. I live in a very rural constituency where we rely heavily on the good men and women of the retained brigades, who do an excellent job. During our meeting, which took place during the dispute and was to do with pay settlements and a whole gamut of issues, I asked him about the future of rural fire stations. He said, "They're all right; they're quite secure." However, a few minutes later we talked about the following scenario. A small village has a retained brigade running the local fire station. Some 12 or 14 miles down the road, there is a full-time station. The chief fire officer told me that his concern was that several of the people who worked in the small retained station were not employed in their day jobs within five miles of the station. What I find amusing is that that station has been run in that way for the past 50 years without any incident whatsoever, giving an excellent service and being held in high regard.
      That concern, however, reflects the way in which fire officers—particularly the more ambitious ones—are now thinking. It is, I am afraid, in line with the Government's thinking that we are going to see lots of the smaller stations close, and I believe honestly and sincerely that the Bill is here to ensure that that will be effected with the minimum of difficulty.
      With regard to what the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) was saying earlier, closing a fire station is almost as bad for a community as closing a village school. People feel that it is their facility; it is run by and for local people, and the people who run it do a thankless job. I would like to see an increase in recruitment in the retained sector to secure the future. I am quite worried about this, having spoken to senior fire officers. It might well be that the senior fire officers in north Wales are thinking along these lines because they believe that there will be a shortfall in the funding for the pay settlement, and that when that funding is applied to the retained sector, the wage bill will, by definition, shoot up. They would therefore end up having to get rid of considerable numbers in the retained sector.
      Mr. Hammond: May I remind the hon. Gentleman that, in response to an intervention from my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden
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      (David Davis), the Deputy Prime Minister gave an absolute assurance that no retained firefighters would lose their jobs as a result of any settlement?
      Mr. Llwyd: But if the money is not there to pay the retained firefighters, what is the obvious conclusion? The Government will not say that it was their fault; it will be the fault of the fire authority, of course, for not using the money wisely. The fire authority would then be forced to make cuts in due course. I hope that I am wrong, and if the Minister gets up in a few minutes' time to tell me that that is the case, I shall be pleased to hear it. That would cheer me up no end, along with my constituents and several other people in north Wales. I say that, having made those few sincerely held remarks.
      The amendments are very useful, and we have had a useful debate on them. Reference was made earlier to the Deputy Prime Minister saying that fire stations were public property. Yes, they are public property, and they are very close to the hearts of people in rural communities. They provide a vital service, and the retained sector is extremely important in rural areas such as north Wales. I would like to see amendment No. 11 embellished by a reference to the need for consultation with Members of the National Assembly for Wales as well.
      John McDonnell: I was simply trying not to pre-empt amendment No. 30, which we shall come to later.
      Mr. Llwyd: The hon. Gentleman is obviously a great thinker, and I stand corrected and slightly embarrassed by what he has just said.
      This has been a useful debate. I hope that the Minister will explain why the word "disposal" appears after the word "use". I hope that he will also explain the distinction between the word "disposal" in clause 2(a) and the reference in clause 2(b) to the use by a fire authority of another fire authority's property or facilities. This tends to confirm what I am saying about the word "disposal". Will he tell the House in no uncertain terms that it is not meant to denote a disposal of an interest in land, because that is what I and many other hon. Members are concerned about?
      The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Christopher Leslie): Sadly for Opposition Members and, indeed, for my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), the Government cannot accept these amendments. Some remove the Secretary of State's power to give directions to fire authorities about the use of property. Others would mean that directions could be made about the use of facilities but not about disposal. I will come some of the points raised on those issues in a moment. Two of the amendments would mean that the Secretary of State would be required to consult Members of Parliament and local authorities before making an order, and to lay before Parliament a report on those consultations.
      Strike action undoubtedly poses a threat to public safety, so in the event of further strikes occurring, the Government need sufficient room for manoeuvre to direct fire authorities on how they should use their property and assets in a co-ordinated and concerted

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      fashion, to the safest effect and to support any emergency fire cover provided by the armed forces. The Government also need the powers in the event that the modernisation of the fire service is obstructed, especially in the absence of any negotiated agreement, so that assets and property can be utilised in a sensible manner. There has been much misunderstanding—perhaps scaremongering in some quarters—and uninformed speculation about the use to which the powers may be put. Our preference is not to have to use them at all, either in response to a strike or as part of the modernisation process. Partnership is clearly the better way forward, but, given the history of the last 12 months in particular, we must safeguard and reserve the right to act.
      Furthermore, any directions that the Secretary of State makes will be made to protect and enhance public safety. We do not have an agenda to do anything that would be contrary to that objective—far from it. Anything that we do will be driven by our motivation to protect citizens and enhance public safety. The provisions are certainly not part of some wider wild asset-stripping fire station closure plan being held secretly in a drawer somewhere in the Department, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington and the hon. Members for Ludlow (Matthew Green) and for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) speculated. That is definitely not envisaged at all.
      Mr. Llwyd: Will the Minister define the word "disposal"?
      Mr. Leslie: That point was raised by the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), as well as by the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, particularly in respect of whether the word referred to the selling of assets, or whether it simply meant the transfer of a piece of equipment from one fire authority to another in certain circumstances. We have a deliberately wide definition of the term because in these circumstances we need a piece of legislation that can cope with a wide variety of eventualities. I would not, therefore, wish to be too prescriptive or to rule out one particular component or another.
      Mr. Hammond: The Minister must be honest about this. "Disposal" in this context includes the transfer by sale of land, and it has to. He, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister for Local Government and the Regions have all said that the pay settlement on offer will have to be paid for by savings through modernisation. That means reducing the number of fire appliances, fire stations and firefighters. What else could yield the savings to pay for an above-inflation pay settlement?
      Mr. Leslie: There are all sorts of ways, highlighted in the Bain inquiry, of making savings in the fire service that involve neither selling off or reducing the facilities available for the protection of public safety nor creating redundancies. There are ways of making savings through good prudent management, as in any organisation. I believe that that is at the heart of the offer made by the employers and of the agreement that they seek to achieve in ensuring a rational distribution of resources based on risk. Where there are particular
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      problems, they will be tackled, rather than having a onesize-fits-all approach to the allocation of assets and personnel.
      Mr. Llwyd: I am sorry to keep pressing the Minister on this, and I do not want to be awkward. Clause 1(2)(b) makes provision for
      "the use by a fire authority of property or facilities belonging to another fire authority".
      That is all well and good, and understood. Clause 1(2)(c) refers to payments being made accordingly. Those eventualities are covered in those two subsections. I return, however, to clause 1(2)(a) and ask the Minister whether he would please define in simple terms what is meant by the term "disposal", if it is different from the definition that the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) just gave.
      8 pm
      Mr. Leslie: I shall give the hon. Gentleman an example. Some fire authorities, particularly the more enlightened, have recognised that they can create efficiency by perhaps sharing a control room facility, whereby two authorities come together to establish a joint control room. While two existed previously, an office may have been disposed of to allow the creation of a single joint control room, which may be more capable and have better technology to deal with calls more rapidly. That will have involved, at some level, the disposal of an asset, but not necessarily to the disadvantage of residents in either fire authority area.
      To answer the hon. Gentleman's point directly, of course "disposal" can mean either the sale of an asset or the transfer of an asset from one fire authority to another, but it does not necessarily mean in any way degrading the protection of public safety.
      Mr. Llwyd: I am not alleging that for one moment, but the Minister has just confirmed the awful scenario to which I referred: the village station closing down and the town station looking after its own interest. The best example that the Government have given so far has confirmed my worst fears.
      Mr. Leslie: I am loth to use the phrase, Read my lips", but I repeat that we would use directions only to protect or enhance public safety. We do not intend to use directions for asset stripping, some sort of privatisation or a mass fire station closure programme. We want to ensure that the proper modernisation of the fire service—protecting public safety even more than it is already protected—can continue and can be implemented.
      I hear what the hon. Gentleman said about rural fire stations and retained firefighters—it was a perfectly legitimate point for him or any Member with concerns about their constituency to raise. In many ways, the modernisation of the fire service involves enhancing protection, perhaps more for residential areas, because increasingly we are recognising the fact that the priority of saving lives has to come first.
      People in many residential areas perhaps feel that they are too distant from fixed appliances or provision and that they could have an enhanced facility. Those discussions need to go on in fire authorities as they

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      consider their risk management plans and implement them to improve public safety by focusing resources and reducing those risks that are perhaps too high at present.
      The Bill's explanatory notes set out the circumstances in which the powers may be used—for example
      "to provide joint control rooms, to direct that equipment be placed at the service of third parties, or to direct that that equipment be distributed on a risk assessment basis."
      We are all encouraged by the fact that there has not been a strike since early February, but we must be prepared for all eventualities.
      Should a strike occur, it is vital that those providing emergency cover have an automatic right of access to fire authority assets, including, for example, fire stations, appliances and aerial platforms should they be needed. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge raised that point when he referred to the remarks of the Deputy Prime Minister. Those are assets that the public have paid for so that lives and property can be protected. They may be needed strategically in the event of a strike.
      Matthew Green: Some authorities are considerably further down the modernisation route than others. Indeed, when a member of the Bain inquiry came to Shropshire, he said that the county has the most modernised fire brigade. That means that less saving is available to the authority to pay for the wage settlements through modernisation. The Government said that they would take that into account when they divide up the additional money, but since they are recovering that money at a later stage—it is, in effect, a tide-over loan—my concern is that these rules may be used to fund the pay settlement in Shropshire, which is already modernised, through the sale of assets.
      Mr. Leslie: All fire authorities have scope to improve and modernise. The hon. Gentleman says that his fire authority has modernised in a number of areas, but perhaps it could still engage in joint control room activity and so forth. There are a number of ways for all authorities to contribute.
      The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge specifically asked whether the orders could be used to implement integrated risk management plans. Given that integrated risk management is part of the agreement on offer from the employers and which the FBU executive is recommending to its members, it is true that should that agreement not come to fruition and not be implemented, it would be possible to use orders to make such improvements and to implement a risk management approach.
      The hon. Gentleman's specific point was about whether there would be consultation on the use of such orders. Indeed, the provisions on facilities and property allow for consultation on their use—appropriate consultation with those directly affected and those representing people who would be affected. In many ways, that is the right approach to take.
      Mr. Hammond: I drew the distinction between the use of those powers to implement an already agreed and approved integrated risk management plan in respect of
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      which the consultation exercise would have been undertaken, and the use of powers to enforce modernisation—where for one reason or another, a satisfactory integrated risk management plan may not have been adopted. In that case, can the Minister confirm that the consultation procedure under subsection (4) mirrors that required by the circular on integrated risk management plans? In other words, will the situation be the same as that when an IRMP is developed properly?
      Mr. Leslie: The Bill will allow the Secretary of State to undertake a consultation exercise as he thinks fit because different circumstances can require different consultations. Should there be short notice of strike action, it would be inappropriate to engage in a protracted paper-based consultation. In the circumstances envisaged by the hon. Gentleman—an IRMP approach needs to be pursued locally, but there is obstruction for one reason or another—the Secretary of State would have greater scope to engage in more in-depth consultation. In the normal course of events, I envisage a consultation such as that which is normally undertaken when an IRMP is drawn up to be considered by the Secretary of State.
      Amendments Nos. 11 and 12 would require a certain form of consultation and a report to Parliament. In some circumstances, they could mean that the Secretary of State would be unable to take prompt or immediate action to secure access to the required fire authority assets to give those providing the emergency cover the tools that they would need in the event of a strike. The amendments are unnecessary because the Bill already requires the Secretary of State to consult representatives of those likely to be affected by his proposals. There is ample provision to ensure that there will be appropriate consultation before an order is made. As I have said on property and facilities, there must be consultation with those directly affected and those who represent such people. Orders on conditions of service have to go before the negotiating body for at least 21 days for its comment, as my right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and the Regions said earlier.
      We must follow the principle that the consultation is appropriate, reasonable and proportionate to the circumstances. Let us not forget that the Secretary of State is required to act reasonably at all times. That responsibility is firmly accepted, but we must be prepared for and anticipate circumstances in which we may need to act swiftly if there is, in particular, an imminent threat to public safety.
      I can tell my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington that, as I have said, it is highly probable that in the normal course of events the Secretary of State would wish to consult local Members of Parliament and local authorities—and, indeed, the local community. I do not think that members of that community should be excluded from a prescriptive list. Including specific lists of consultees may risk the omission of others with a genuine interest.
      The Committee should resist the proposal for a report of consultations in Parliament to be laid before the making of an order. That could constitute an administrative obstacle that might inhibit swift action to protect public safety. If swift access to fire authority assets is needed owing to a risk to public safety, the

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      preparation of a parliamentary report on a consultation exercise will not be a desirable prerequisite. However, I hear what my hon. Friend says about the need for a wider examination of accountability processes for the fire services in general. I noted his suggestion of a conglomerated report, perhaps on an annual basis.
      These powers are necessary. We need to hold them in reserve, although, as I have said, I hope that they will not be required. We must make contingency arrangements to protect and enhance public safety.
      John McDonnell: When I tabled my amendments, I did not expect such widespread support for them. I am almost tempted to press them to a vote.
      The responses so far have been reassuring, to an extent. We have been reassured, for instance, that the disposal power is not linked to any mass programme of sales—that it will be used in extremis, when there is no agreement at local level following adequate consultation. In normal circumstances, devolved powers will remain at local level. We have also been reassured about the overall consultation, and about the examination of an overall report to Parliament.
      The Government have moved to some extent, but I think that a message should be sent to Ministers about concerns that have been expressed by Members on both sides about the potential impact on communities if this develops into a large-scale disposal programme. The powers in the Bill are not suited to that. The discussion that we have had so far about the development of risk management has involved enhanced resources, and increased provision rather than cuts.
      On the basis of the assurances that we have been given, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Mr. Hammond: I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 6, at end insert—
      '(1A) The provision that may be made by virtue of subsection (1)(a) includes the power to make provision about conditions of service relating to—

      (a) membership of trades unions by fire brigade members; and

      (b) disciplinary offences by fire brigades members.'.

      The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 14, in clause 2, page 2, line 28, leave out
      'hours of duty or leave'.
      Mr. Hammond: Amendment No. 1 deals with the third issue raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis) on Second Reading. It is designed to give the Deputy Prime Minister the power, but not the obligation, to enforce his orders by introducing, through the disciplinary code, a strike ban, and if necessary to regulate membership of trade unions by fire brigade members. This may seem a slightly tortuous way of presenting the proposal, but the options were limited by the scope and architecture of the Bill, and I can assure the Committee, having taken advice, that this was the only way in which to test the Government.
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      I was about to say that I was delighted to see that the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) had returned, but he has now left again. I am sure he will return. He asked whether we proposed the creation of criminal offences. He will note from the phrasing of the amendment that it specifically does not create such an offence; nor does it raise the spectre of sequestration of assets, as some suggested during earlier discussions. It does allow the creation of a disciplinary offence, similar to those created by the Police Acts—failure to obey a lawful order being a disciplinary offence in a police force. If this Secretary of State chose or needed to use the power, this would provide a mechanism for the imposition of a ban on industrial action when that was necessary.
      8.15 pm
      I understand that the Home Secretary has proposed that prison officers should recover their legal right to strike, but should then enter into a negotiated no-strike agreement. The amendment would allow a similar type of strike ban in relation to fire brigades, but it would not be negotiated. Nothing in the Bill would be negotiated; it would all be imposed by the Secretary of State. The Deputy Prime Minister might call it an arbitrated strike ban, imposed by himself.
      On Second Reading and subsequently, Members on both sides of the House have recognised the strength of the case that the Bills fatal weakness as a means of imposing a settlement and ensuring that it works is its lack of teeth. The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey), who unfortunately cannot be with us today, acknowledged that as a defect in his proposals on Second Reading. More surprisingly, perhaps, the hon. Member for Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn)—who is present—raised the question on Second Reading.
      The hon. Gentleman put to the Deputy Prime Minister a scenario in which he had imposed a settlement and some or all fire brigade members simply refused to accept it, and went on strike. He asked what the Deputy Prime Minister would do at that point. The Deputy Prime Minister, I am afraid, replied
      "That is the difficult question that we have to answer in this matter, and I give the best of my judgment … at the end of the day this is a free country where people make free decisions on whether they want to give their labour—that is why I am against the anti-strike legislation. But we all must make judgments, which is why I am giving the House my best judgment of how we can find agreement. The dispute affects this country's public safety, in respect of which all of us in the House have responsibilities."—[Official Report, 8 May 2003; Vol. 404, c. 857.]
      In other words, he did not have a clue, and he did not answer the hon. Gentleman's question.
      I am going to guess that the hon. Member for Islington, North will not support my proposal for the Secretary of State to introduce a no-strike provision. None the less, he has identified the fatal flaw in the Bill, although he will no doubt approach the solution from a rather different angle.
      Jeremy Corbyn: The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to that aspect. If he opposes the Bill for the same reasons as me, and if his solution is a no-strike law relating to firefighters, what will he do—or what will a putative Tory Government

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      do—when the firefighters strike? Will he recruit them all to the Army, as President Reagan did when the air traffic controllers went on strike'? Or will he send soldiers to the firefighters' homes to drag them out, place them in fire tenders, and say "Go and put out fires"? Or will he do nothing, apart from negotiating— which is really the only way in which to solve industrial problems?
      Mr. Hammond: The amendment would give the Deputy Prime Minister power to make regulations relating to disciplinary offences. It cannot be very specific, but we envisage the Secretary of State's being able, in appropriate circumstances, to make failure to obey a lawful order a disciplinary offence, just as it is in our police forces. That, in practice, would give the Secretary of State a weapon—albeit, perhaps, imperfect—in addition to those that the Bill would give him in its present incarnation, namely none at all.
      I accept that this may not be a perfect solution, but we have deliberately eschewed criminal sanctions against firefighters who go on strike, and the sequestration of assets.
      We do not believe that that is the appropriate way to proceed in the current circumstances. However, I remind the hon. Gentleman that we are talking about a Bill that is time-limited to two years; it is a short-term emergency provision. The Minister has made it absolutely clear that in terms of time, he expects it to dovetail with permanent legislation arising from his White Paper. I understand from what has been said before that whether or not the Government support no-strike provisions, the White Paper will explore that area and the possible relevance of a no-strike power.
      John McDonnell: Will the hon. Gentleman clarify two points? His amendment No. 1 refers to
      'the power to make provision about conditions of service relating to—
      (a) membership of trade unions by fire brigade members".
      Does that mean that this provision could enable the Secretary of State to say that firefighters are not eligible for trade union membership? On the amendment and disciplinary offences, if the Secretary of State introduces disciplinary measures against an individual trade unionist for not abiding by an instruction and that trade unionist's colleagues come out on strike, what happens then?
      Mr. Hammond: To answer the second question first, those that did so, if the Secretary of State had so regulated, would he in breach of the disciplinary code, just as police officers who went out on strike action would be in breach of the police disciplinary code. We can ask the question: ultimately, what do we do with those who do not obey the regulations? They would be in breach of their contract and of the disciplinary code, and the fire authority would have an additional weapon at its disposal. On the hon. Gentleman's first question, the answer is clearly yes: the Secretary of State could use that power to prevent membership of a trade union by members of a fire brigade, in the same way that powers exist to prevent membership of a trade union by members of a police force.
      Jeremy Corbyn: The hon. Gentleman is taking us into some very interesting territory. His amendment may
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      indeed be defective, because he should have sought derogation from both International Labour Organisation conventions and the Human Rights Act 1998 in order to give himself, as a putative Secretary of State—
      John McDonnell: No chance.
      Jeremy Corbyn: Indeed. The hon. Gentleman should have sought derogation to give himself the power to legislate to prevent people from being members of a free association of workers.
      Mr. Hammond: I suspect that I have a little more chance of becoming Secretary of State than the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), but we will leave that matter for another day. I am seeking to discover, as the hon. Member for Islington, North sought to do, how this Bill will perform its function as effective emergency legislation that addresses a real and present danger that needs to be addressed. We have told the Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister that we can and would support properly designed and constructed legislation with proper teeth that enables the Deputy Prime Minister to impose a settlement and make it stick. We will not support the Government in a propaganda exercise that is not designed to produce effective legislation. If there is no provision to enforce a settlement, as well as to impose it, this legislation will not be effective.
      The preservation of public safety requires that strikes in this vital emergency service do not take place while we are in the current situation of great overstretch of military capacity and an absence of adequate military resources to deal with any fire strike, should it occur.
      Jeremy Corbynrose—0
      Mr. Hammond: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman one more time; my only disappointment is that the hon. Member for Manchester, Central has missed the meaty part of the debate.
      Jeremy Corbyn: The hon. Gentleman wants, in effect, to have a no-strike clause for the fire service because of what he calls the current national emergency, but what about the ambulance service, accident and emergency units in hospitals, and so on? Once we go down this particular route it does not stop; we end up with a very oppressive state that controls its work force in order to cope with a perceived emergency.
      Mr. Hammond: We are dealing with a very specific case. We are dealing not with a theoretical problem but with an actual problem. The dispute has been running for a year, strikes have occurred and Ministers and the Deputy Prime Minister have confirmed that further strikes will put public safety and lives at risk. We do not face a similar situation in relation to any other services—there is no issue to be addressed. They ain't broke, so we don't need to fix them, but the fire service presents a real problem that needs to be addressed today. This is not intended to be the slippery slope. The fire service is right in the front line, and we are addressing the problem that we face today.

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      When the Deputy Prime Minister introduced this Bill, he said:
      "Legislation is therefore necessary in the public interest and to protect … safety."
      But safety is protected by requiring the fire service to be there when it is needed, and the Bill as it stands gives the Secretary of State absolutely no power to ensure that that is so. The Deputy Prime Minister continued:
      "My main point about anti-strike legislation … is that it would take many months for it to go through the House and be achieved."
      That is hardly a principled objection to anti-strike legislation, and it is also palpably not true. If the Government accepted this amendment tonight, they could include in the Bill provisions that would give it teeth and ensure that any settlement that the Deputy Prime Minister imposed could be effectively implemented.
      Indeed, the Deputy Prime Minister spelled out the risks on Second Reading. He listed the reduction in troop numbers available, and he told the House that only 250 green goddesses and 9,000 troops would be available in a future dispute to cover the entire United Kingdom 24 hours a day, seven days a week. He concluded:
      "If the FBU calls for further strikes, lives will be endangered and property put at risk."—[Official Report, 8 May 2003; Vol. 404, c. 856–59.]
      In those circumstances, when the Government themselves have identified that further strikes will endanger life and put property at risk, surely the duty of a responsible Government is to ensure that strikes do not occur. Of course, a strike ban unilaterally imposed by the Secretary of State represents an erosion of rights—I would be the first to acknowledge that—but so does the rest of this Bill, through the imposition of pay settlements and terms and conditions of work. That is why we have argued—successfully—for a time limit on this measure. But with no power to impose a strike ban, the entire Bill becomes an unenforceable nonsense.
      Back-Bench Labour Members know very well that although a settlement that the Secretary of State purported to impose against the will of the body of fire brigade employees might stick in Shropshire and Surrey, it stands not a chance of sticking in Essex, Merseyside and Clydeside. The Secretary of State needs to have a way of making the powers that he has under this Bill stick. We believe that in the longer term, just as firefighters are entitled to fair pay that reflects the indispensable and much enhanced role that they play in our society, so the public are entitled to be free of the threat to their safety, and the military are entitled to be free of the intolerable burden that fire strikes impose on them.
      We expect that the White Paper that the Government are promising to publish will consider the mechanisms for setting pay and conditions for the fire service independently. The point was made earlier that if people's rights to take industrial action are restricted, a fair and independent mechanism for setting pay must be in place. I acknowledge that that is not available under the Bill, because the Secretary of State will set pay unilaterally. In the longer term, when consideration of the Bill comes to an end and we are left with permanent legislation arising from the White Paper, two key
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      principles must go hand in hand: the unique contribution of firefighters must be recognised, likewise the unacceptability of using public safety as a pawn in industrial disputes. Strikes therefore cannot be permitted as part of such a dispute.
      For now, the focus is on the Bill. If it is to work as an effective, short-term, time-limited measure that will resolve the current dispute, relieve the unacceptable impact on our military preparedness and ensure public safety, it must include a power to make anti-strike provisions: otherwise, it will not succeed. It does not mean that the Deputy Prime Minister has to use the power, but it must be available to him. A settlement imposed by the Deputy Prime Minister will simply be ignored if it does not have any teeth.
      8.30 pm
      The Government have consistently refused to tell us how they will deal with such a situation where a settlement is imposed and ignored, but have made it clear that they will not provide and finance military cover to fire authorities that face industrial action. The Minister for Local Government and the Regions said on Second Reading:
      "The public has every right to a fully functioning fire service. We are therefore seeking the powers in the Bill so that we can draw a line under the dispute".—[Official Report, 8 May 2003; Vol. 404, c. 918.]
      The first sentence is right, but the second sentence is simply a non-sequitur. Drawing a line under the dispute will not, without no-strike powers, ensure that the public secure a fully functioning fire service. The Minister has failed to deal with the question of enforcing a settlement, which, to be blunt, is likely to inflame the mood in the more militant areas. He acknowledged that further strike action would inevitably create a greater risk to public safety.
      I noticed that the Minister carefully avoided—[Interruption.] That must be the Deputy Prime Minister on the phone now, telling the Minister what to say. The Minister carefully avoided endorsing the Deputy Prime Minister's position against no-strike provisions and promised that the White Paper would set out the Government's intentions in that respect. However, the Minister also referred to the Attorney-General's continuing involvement in the process. The Attorney-General already has powers, but Ministers have insisted throughout the dispute that he cannot be prevailed upon to use them.
      If I were a conspiracy theorist—other Members in the Chamber are more likely candidates—I might just wonder whether the collective judgment of Ministers is that dramatically reducing the number of troops and the number of appliances available for future disputes, and drawing attention—as both the Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister have done—to the increased risks that a strike would entail, are a means of forcing the Attorney-General to apply for an injunction because of the commensurate risks to public safety. The Government could then secure the no-strike position without having to go through the internal Labour party conflict that supporting such a provision in the Bill might produce. If that is their game, surely it is better to be up-front about it and build the power into the Bill as part of a package to impose a settlement and make it

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      stick. A responsible Government with the safety of the public at the forefront of their mind should take the opportunity to make such a power available and ensure that the Bill is workable.
      We can support the Bill only if it is a time-limited, effective measure that will genuinely bring the dispute to a conclusion and enforce a settlement that the Secretary of State imposes. If the Government will not assume powers to enable them to enforce such an imposed settlement, the Bill will have been a waste of Parliament's time. It will not achieve the Government's stated objectives. I urge the Minister to put the needs of public safety ahead of considerations about internal Labour party or labour movement politics and accept amendment No. 1. At the very least, the Government should give a commitment to produce something similar to that amendment, so that the Bill has real teeth and to ensure that the powers assumed by the Secretary of State can be deployed as part of a negotiating process and made to work to bring the dispute to an end and restore public safety to its former level.
      John McDonnell: I shall speak to my amendment No. 14 in a moment. However, the Pinochet of Runnymede and Weybridge has excited me in respect of his vision for the future of industrial relations in this country. We should perhaps phone Anfield now, because he mentioned Merseyside as one of the areas that would not accept an imposed settlement. He would first introduce strike bans in such an area, then ban trade union membership and, if people still went on strike, he would presumably bring the full force of the law against them.
      That was the Pinochet model, and he also usually had people crowded into football stadiums. Under the hon. Gentleman, Anfield and other football stadiums would be fairly crowded.
      Mr. Hammond: To clarify the situation, I confirm that General Pinochet was a guest in my constituency for some time, at the insistence of the Labour Government, but he has now departed. Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the clause is specifically drawn so that a criminal offence would not be created? Any action would be a disciplinary offence between the employer and the employee, not a criminal offence.
      John McDonnell: And then what would happen? What would the next sanction be? It must be a free ticket to Anfield. Once we have legislation that bans human basic human rights, it must be taken to the ultimate conclusion—as with the Shrewsbury pickets—of locking people up. Amendment No. 1 is farcical. I always thought that the organisation Conservative Trade Unionists was a contradiction in terms.
      I just hope that trade unionists have witnessed this debate. The 9 million members of the TUC will now know that if they go on strike under a future Conservative Government, if ever elected, that Government could define their industry as an essential service. The members would then not only lose their right to a negotiated settlement, but their right to strike and, eventually, to trade union membership.
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      What is an essential service? Is it the ambulance service? We had an ambulance service dispute a short time ago. Is it local government? We had a social services dispute last year. Is it transport? Some American states are seeking to ban strike action in the shipping industry and control who may work in the industry.
      We have had a revelation tonight of what a Conservative Government would mean for trade unions. I sometimes have a few problems with new Labour, but this debate has reassured me about why it is important to maintain Labour in power. It is clear that fundamental human rights would disappear if a Conservative Government were ever elected again.
      Amendment No. 14 seeks to delete from the definition of conditions of service the words
      "hours of duty or leave".
      The present dispute concerns pay and allowances, so I can understand why the Government wish to take a power to impose a settlement on pay and allowances, although I do not agree with that. However, I do not understand why the Government wish to impose conditions for hours of duty or leave. I thought that that issue was to be a subject for local negotiation. It is best left to negotiation at the local level, as the Minister said this evening about the introduction of new shift patterns. Local negotiations can ensure that shift patterns are family-friendly at the specific level of individual fire stations. Why is it thought right to give the Secretary of State the power to impose conditions for hours of duty or leave at the local level? Why do the Government want to extend the power beyond pay and allowances, which is what the dispute is about?
      Matthew Green: I thought that the Conservatives had so far lived up to their latest more cuddly incarnation and their attempts to be the middle-of-the-road party. The way in which they dealt with the first few groups of amendments could certainly have fooled people into thinking that. However, on amendment No.1, the ugly face of Conservatism has re-emerged. People are right to be concerned about what will happen if parties to the dispute refuse to accept the settlement imposed under the Bill. If the Conservative amendment had stopped at disciplinary offences, we could have understood their logic—although we would not have supported it. However, the Conservatives have gone one step further. They want to include membership of trade unions. This is GCHQ all over again.
      Mr. Hammond: Does not the hon. Gentleman accept that the amendment is based on the current practice with police regulations? Members of police forces are not allowed to belong to a police force trade union—although, bizarrely, they can retain membership of a union that is irrelevant to their police service. Officers cannot belong to a police trade union, and it is a disciplinary offence to fail to obey a lawful order. I put it to the hon. Gentleman that what our constituents care about is the preservation of public safety and security. It is much to their credit that fire brigades members play as important a role as the police in protecting us against the threats that we face every day in our society.
      Matthew Green: Ambulance workers do the same, as do workers in NHS accident and emergency

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      departments and, to some extent, the people who work in our power stations. The logic of the amendment is that if—heaven forbid—there were to be another Conservative Government, strikes would be banned every time there was industrial action in any sector that could be said to affect public safety. Moreover, the workers in those sectors would be banned from belonging to trade unions. The amendment is more than draconian—
      John McDonnell: It is fascism.
      Matthew Green: I shall not repeat the word used from a sedentary position by a Labour Member, but the amendment goes well beyond anything that the Conservatives have said before on the matter. It is incredible that the proposal should have been introduced in this way.
      The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) did not want to use a certain word when he asked about disciplinary offences, but it is clear that the Conservatives would sack fire brigade personnel. If the amendment were agreed and a settlement imposed, everyone who refused to accept it would be sacked. If all the FBU members went out on strike, the Conservatives would sack them, with the result that we would not have a fire service. Presumably, the Army would have to step in—the very thing that the Conservatives are trying to avoid.
      Mr. Hammond: What would happen, in the absence of the amendment, if the Secretary of State imposed a settlement that was rejected by fire service personnel, who then went on strike?
      Matthew Green: It is to cover exactly that circumstance that we tried to introduce, earlier in the Bill's passage through the House, provisions to allow rounds of arbitration and postal ballots. None of us wants to get to the stage that the hon. Gentleman has described, but the problem with the amendment is that it sends a message to fire brigade members that a future Conservative Government would impose a pay settlement and sack anyone who did not like it. Then there would be no fire service, and we would have to start all over again. We would have to recruit brand-new people to the service, and the Army would have to cover the entire country during that period.
      Jeremy Corbyn: I am following the hon. Gentleman's speech with interest. Will he confirm that Shropshire would not be a strike-free zone? I hope that it would not. However, is not the logic of the argument for the amendment that members of a union would be dismissed from their place of work and only allowed back if they signed some sort of loyalty oath, to the effect that they would not take part in industrial action or join a trade union? That is what has happened in other countries with oppressive Governments who operate on principles that are totally anti-trade union—principles that the modern Conservative party seems to want to adopt.
      Matthew Green: The hon. Gentleman may know more about other countries' arrangements. He might be disappointed to learn that FBU members in Shropshire continued to go on strike only because they felt that they
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      owed it to fellow union members in other parts of the country. They wanted to accept the settlements, and that has been the feeling in Shropshire for some time. I therefore do not think that there exists the strength of feeling that the hon. Gentleman suggests.
      Mr. Hammond: Will the hon. Gentleman remind me of how many times since 1919 policemen have had to be dismissed because they went on strike? How many times has the Army had to take over the role of the police? What the hon. Gentleman describes is not a real situation, and it does not happen in practice.
      Our point is that we need to recognise that the time has come to place the fire service on a par with the police service. As we go forward with the Minister's White Paper and the new Fire Services Act that this Bill will become, there will have to be proper and independent arrangements for setting fire service pay in the absence of a right to strike.
      8.45 pm
      Matthew Green: We have just heard Conservative policy and we can assume that it would also have to apply to ambulance workers, as a minimum—
      David Davis: How many strikes since 1919? Does the hon. Gentleman know?
      Matthew Green: No, of course I do not know how many strikes there have been since 1919.
      It is clear that the right hon. Gentleman does not have much understanding of how to resolve industrial disputes. Threatening to ban people from membership of a trade union generates industrial disputes, as happened at GCHQ, rather than resolving them. Such inflammatory language—the pun is not intended—will serve only to encourage FBU members to reject the offer on 12 June. It is unfortunate that the Conservatives tabled such an amendment. There is no way we could support it; indeed, we shall vote against it.
      Mr. Drew: Thank 'you for calling me, Sir Alan. I shall be brief.
      The Bill has at least one benefit; it has drawn out what the industrial relations policy of the Opposition actually is. They may have b: en in listening mode for the past year, but I do not know which trade unions they have been listening to; the ones that I meet and consult would be horrified at the proposals in the amendment. Although we are referring to a particular dispute in a specific service, the danger is that such ideas might become more generally applicable. As the Opposition are in listening mode, I hope that they will listen to some trade unionists rather than act as they have done so far.
      Mr. Hammond: I listen generally to my constituents. What the hon. Gentleman said of the amendment is equally applicable to the Bill. Is he really alarmed that the Government are about to embark on a path where they could use similar legislation, with powers for the Secretary of State to impose settlements across all essential services such as transport and utilities? Of course he is not. This is a specific dispute; it is a specific problem in a unique emergency service. It is disingenuous of Labour Members to try to tell us what

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      our policy is when we have made it clear that this is a special circumstance and the policy would apply only to the fire service.
      Mr. Drew: I thank the hon. Gentleman; he has almost taken the words out of my mouth. I was about to say that, much as I welcome the fact that we have managed to tease out the thoughts of the official Opposition, the proposals draw out even more clearly the reason why some of us are bitterly opposed to the measure. It would be a slippery slope—this is a classic case. The Bill would allow any Government, although not of a hue that I would ever support, to use this dispute as a precedent. They could say that as these circumstances had been dealt with in that way, they could do the same thing in the next case and in the one after that. The ratchet would keep being tightened.
      There is another notion with which I am genuinely trying to struggle: when a decision had been arrived at democratically by members of a trade union through a free ballot and been acted on through some form of industrial action, although not necessarily strike action, sanctions would be taken against individuals. In all the often ill-thought-out industrial relations legislation that has been passed in this place, the notion has always been that the collective, not the individual, is attacked.
      The individual's human rights— and dare I say that labour rights are a form of human rights?—are sacrosanct. However, the Opposition's proposals mean that sanctions against a strike or whatever action is taken involve attacking individuals and their rights.
      We all know that it is easy to talk about taking disciplinary action, which all sounds meek and mild. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) pointed out, disciplinary action can involve sacking people. That is not a million miles from what the official Opposition appear to want. It involves attacking a trade union by taking action against individuals, and that is a totally reprehensible change in our culture of dealing with the way in which people—whether it is the Government, the employer or the work force as represented by their trade union taking the lead—behave in industrial disputes. It is a deplorable line to tread with hobnailed boots.
      I have a final observation. If anyone thinks that there is a close parallel between the fire service and the police, they should think again. There are great differences between them. However, I always smile when people talk about the Police Federation as though it is not a trade union. Whenever a Government have acted directly against the views of the Police Federation, I doubt that they have ever managed to get changes introduced. In the past pay and conditions debacle, the Police Federation clearly came out against the settlement and, to and behold, the Government completely rethought their policy. In a sense, one could say that that is good industrial relations. The collective worked and individuals did not need to be put into a position in which they were disciplined. However, if one ever took disciplinary action against a policeman or woman because they were carrying out the democratically arrived at will of the Police Federation, the results would be very interesting.
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      Anyone who naively thinks that the Opposition proposal is a good one does not know much about industrial relations. I urge not just the official Opposition but the Government to think again about the route that they are taking, because it is fraught with problems.
      David Winnick: I do not know whether the amendment was tabled to unite Labour Members, but at a time when we are somewhat divided about the Government's Bill, it has done precisely that.
      To say the least, I have a number of reservations about the way in which the current dispute has been conducted by the union, and I have made that clear. However, I shall not go into that point now. I am very much opposed to the Conservatives' amendment. They say that the nature of the work undertaken by firefighters means that, like the police, they should not be allowed to take strike action. The Opposition are using the police as an example to be followed by the firefighters. However, if a Conservative Government were to take such action, I can imagine that those involved in other essential or emergency work would be told that the police and the firefighters are banned from taking strike action, so why should the same rule not apply to other groups of workers? The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) shakes his head, but I am concerned about the escalation of the argument.
      We know why the police are not permitted to take strike action, but my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) was right to point out the effectiveness of the trade union—the Police Federation—that represents the police.
      In a democracy, the fact that the police cannot take industrial action, for reasons that most of us understand, should not be an excuse to deny other groups of workers the right to take action if they so wish. Obviously, I would rather that firefighters did not take strike action, but I accept that they have the right to do so if a majority vote is secured in a ballot.
      I was in the House on 25 January 1984 when the then Government announced a ban on GCHQ employees taking any form of strike action. My hon. Friends and I protested and introduced ten-minute Bills about that year after year, especially on 25 January. The Government elected in 1997 reversed that ban and we all agree that they were right to do so, although I do not know what a Tory Government would do in the future. I am convinced that if we live in a democracy, which we do, the right of employees to take industrial action should not be taken away, certainly not in peacetime.
      I conclude by asking a question. Does the amendment represent official Conservative party policy? Will the Conservative party give a clear commitment at the next general election that if it is elected, firefighters will not be able to take strike action? If the party adopts such a policy, it should be made absolutely clear when the electorate makes up its mind. The issue is important and everyone in a democracy should be aware of it. I look forward to hearing what the Conservative party says when the election comes.
      Mr. Raynsford: We have had an illuminating debate that has shown clearly the division among the parties in

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      the House. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) and his party will deeply regret the unattractive face of anti-trade union and authoritarian Conservatism that lies behind the amendment.
      The hon. Gentleman said that Conservative Members had three main proposals. The first was a sunset clause, which we agreed to. The second proposal was a provision for secret ballots. We said that there was a case for secret ballots but that the mechanism proposed was neither workable nor appropriate, although we did not disagree with him in principle. However, the hon. Gentleman's third proposal is an anti-trade union provision with which we profoundly disagree.
      It is essential to adopt a measured approach to solve what has been one of this country's most difficult industrial disputes in recent years, which is what the Government are trying to do. We do not pretend that we are taking an easy route or that it is not fraught with difficulties. Our response is measured and serious, and balances proper concern for public safety, which remains our overriding priority, with respect for people's rights to organise in trade unions and advance their interests in a democratic society. Our proposals are designed to help to secure a solution, whereas the Conservative party's proposals seem to be designed to create a more bitter and extensive industrial conflict and to provoke a serious breakdown in relations with the trade union movement in this country. I cannot believe that the Conservative party, on reflection, will want to continue to advocate the policies that we heard tonight. I also hope that the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge will realise on reflection that his conspiracy theory about the Government and the Attorney-General is deeply unworthy and of no substance whatsoever. I hope that he will agree, on reflection, that the comment should be withdrawn.
      The central issue is the right to strike. I remind the House that there is no statutory right to strike in the United Kingdom. On the one hand, there is no practical way to prevent people from withdrawing their labour or to force them to work but, on the other, people who do not work normally will usually he in breach of contract. The de facto right to strike is given by the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992. It provides statutory immunity for striking workers and their trade unions so that they are protected from legal action on breaches of contract, provided that the industrial action is in response to a trade dispute and subject to proper balloting and notification procedures. In addition, the ability to strike is an important part of the freedom to associate under article 11 of the European convention on human rights. That is also germane to the debate although the Conservative party appears to have little or no regard for such conventions.
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      In the Government's view, employees' ability to take lawful strike action should be withdrawn only in exceptional circumstances. We have no plans do so at present in relation to firefighters. We have made it clear that the issue will be covered in the White Paper. Indeed, it was raised by the Bain review, which suggested that it be considered further. We will do that, but as the Deputy Prime Minister made clear on Second Reading our judgment is not in favour of removing that right from
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      firefighters. I accept that it is a matter of judgment whether firefighters, like the police, perform a role that possibly justifies interfering with the basic right of any working person to withdraw their labour. Our judgment remains that they do not.
      The fire service does, of course, have similarities with the police service, but there are also significant differences in the light of which we believe that anti-strike legislation would not be appropriate. There is a fundamental difference in the role of the police and fire services. The police, as enforcers of national law, must be independent and must act on behalf of us all. Furthermore, it has been demonstrated in the course of the past year that the armed forces have been able to provide effective alternative fire cover to a high standard. In normal circumstances, there is no such alternative to the police service.
      In addition, the House will remember that before this last year there had peen more than 25 years without a national strike in the fire service. There had been local disagreements and local industrial action, but nothing that led to proposals of this nature being introduced by any party on either side of the House. We should not make the mistake of confusing the current situation for the norm. We must certainly not allow the dispute to continue and we need a strategy for the future that will minimise the chances of it happening again. I have already described how the Bill and our forthcoming White Paper will do that in their different but complementary ways. Achieving a fire service for the future will depend on committed and motivated staff at all levels. Reducing the rights of staff is, in my view, neither helpful nor likely to achieve a productive outcome.
      In all events, I do not think that the kind of powers that would be conferred by amendment No. 1 would be in any way appropriate. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge spent a great deal of time during our consideration of the Local Government Bill criticising the Government for giving too many powers to the Secretary of State. Yet he is proposing not only that the Secretary of State should have power to legislate about fundamental things such as trade union membership, but that he should also be able to change the disciplinary code to make strike action an offence solely by order rather than by primary legislation on which the House decides. I cannot understand the logic behind those proposals.
      Amendment No. 4, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), is designed to restrict: the Secretary of State's power so that he could not fix or modify the hours of duty and leave of fire brigade members. The intended effect of that would be twofold. First, the Secretary of State would not be able to address firefighters' conditions of service as a whole. He would not, for example, be able to make changes to hours of duty or leave arrangements that might be welcomed by firefighters. There would inevitably be less scope to produce a package that could address the range of issues to which firefighters attach importance.
      Secondly, the amendment might make it more difficult to make progress with the modernisation of the service. A key question is how to match hours of work to the peaks of demand o nd risk. That will almost certainly

      107
      require some change from the current patterns of work, which have remained pretty much the same for 25 years or more. That does not mean, as some have suggested, wholesale changes to shift patterns and working conditions. Our best judgment is that new flexible arrangements could be introduced under which a majority of firefighters would remain on their current shift patterns if they wanted to.
      There are likely to be other options, however, including different shift patterns and working hours, some of which will involve more family-friendly hours, which could be more attractive to some serving firefighters and potential new recruits. The precise changes needed will have to be considered locally and will emerge from the risk management plans on which fire authorities are working and on which they will consult. If we are driven to a position in which we have no option but to use the powers, we will need to be able to make the right changes that work with fire authorities' agreed plans.
      I hope that my hon. Friend recognises that there could be some downsides to his proposal and I have explained why I do not support the purpose of the amendment. Having said that, perhaps I should also tell him that I do not believe that it would have the effect that he wants to produce.
      The definition in clause 2(2) is not exhaustive: the phrase "conditions of service" includes the matters listed, but is not limited to them. If the matters listed were amended to remove any mention of hours of duty or leave, the phrase "conditions of service" would still have its natural meaning, and the so-called grey book, which contains firefighters' terms of service, makes it clear that that meaning includes hours of duty and leave. My hon. Friend's amendment would therefore not have the effect that he desires, and I ask him not to press it.
      I hope that the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge will agree to withdraw his, frankly, unworthy and undesirable amendment.
      Mr. Hammond: It is my turn now to accuse the Minister of synthetic anger. We have heard from Labour Members the most ridiculous extrapolations from a very specific provision relating to a very specific Bill. The Bill deals with the fire service. The Minister is himself taking powers to impose a settlement; we are trying to ensure that such a settlement can work and to make the Bill a piece of legislation that in the two-year interim period in which it will be in force will deliver the end to the current dispute and to strikes that the Minister says he wants.
      It is interesting that the Minister has not ruled out an anti-strike provision. He has said that the White Paper will give consideration to it in the context of the new fire service legislation—the permanent Act. We believe that in any such situation, there must be an independent and fair mechanism for setting pay. The Minister says that it is a matter of judgment and that his judgment is that it would not be helpful. I respect that, but I am glad that he at least acknowledges that the matter is one that should be aired, that it will be in the White Paper, and that the House will have an opportunity to consider it again.
      108
      Our judgment is different. When the Government have already admitted that further strikes would endanger life and property but they are going to do nothing about it; when the Government are introducing legislation that gives the Secretary of State a power to impose a settlement but absolutely no power to make that settlement stick; when tens of thousands of troops are potentially to be tied down—
      It being five and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the programme motion, THE CHAIRMAN pursuant to Order [8 May] and Resolution [this day], put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
      Question put, That the amendment be made:—
      The Committee divided:Ayes 112, Noes 335.

      Division No. 215]

      [9.07 pm

      AYES

      Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

      Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

      Amess, David

      Jack, rh Michael

      Ancram, rh Michael

      Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

      Arbuthnot, rh James

      Jenkin, Bernard

      Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

      Johnson, Boris (Henley)

      Baldry, Tony

      Laing, Mrs Eleanor

      Baron, John (Billericay)

      Lait, Mrs Jacqui

      Bellingham, Henry

      Lansley, Andrew

      Bercow, John

      Leigh, Edward

      Beresford, Sir Paul

      Letwin, rh Oliver

      Blunt, Crispin

      Liddell-Grainger, Ian

      Boswell, Tim

      Lidington, David

      Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey)

      Loughton, Tim

      McIntosh, Miss Anne

      Brady, Graham

      Maclean, rh David

      Brazier, Julian

      McLoughlin, Patrick

      Browning, Mrs Angela

      Maude, rh Francis

      Burns, Simon

      Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

      Burt, Alistair

      May, Mrs Theresa

      Butterfill, John

      Mercer, Patrick

      Chope, Christopher

      Moss, Malcolm

      Clappison, James

      Murrison, Dr. Andrew

      Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Norman, Archie

      Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

      O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

      Collins, Tim

      Osborne, George (Tatton)

      Conway, Derek

      Page, Richard

      Curry, rh David

      Paice, James

      Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)

      Pickles, Eric

      Portillo, rh Michael

      Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

      Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

      Robathan, Andrew

      Djanogly, Jonathan

      Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent

      Duncan, Alan (Rutland)

      Evans, Nigel

      Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

      Fallon, Michael

      Rosindell, Andrew

      Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster

      Ruffley, David

      Sayeed, Jonathan

      Forth, rh Eric

      Selous, Andrew

      Francois, Mark

      Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian

      Gale, Roger (N Thanet)

      Simmonds, Mark

      Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

      Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

      Goodman, Paul

      Spicer, Sir Michael

      Grayling, Chris

      Spink, Bob (Castle Point)

      Green, Damian (Ashford)

      Stanley, rh Sir John

      Greenway, John

      Steen, Anthony

      Hague, rh William

      Swayne, Desmond

      Hammond, Philip

      Swire, Hugo (E Devon)

      Hawkins, Nick

      Syms, Robert

      Hayes, John (S Holland)

      Taylor, Ian (Esher)

      Heald, Oliver

      Taylor, John (Solihull)

      Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

      Tredinnick, David

      Hendry, Charles

      Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

      Hogg, rh Douglas

      Tyrie, Andrew

      Horam, John (Orpington)

      Viggers, Peter

      109

      Waterson, Nigel

      Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)

      Watkinson, Angela

      Whittingdale, John

      Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

      Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

      Wiggin, Bill

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Wilshire, David

      Mr. Mark Hoban and

      Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

      Mrs. Cheryl Gillan

      NOES

      Alexander, Douglas

      Colman, Tony

      Allan, Richard

      Connarty, Michael

      Allen, Graham

      Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

      Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

      Corbyn, Jeremy

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)

      Corston, Jean

      Cousins, Jim

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Cranston, Ross

      Atherton, Ms Candy

      Crausby, David

      Austin, John

      Cruddas, Jon

      Bailey, Adrian

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Baird, Vera

      Cummings, John

      Banks, Tony

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Barnes, Harry

      Darling, rh Alistair

      Barrett, John

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Battle, John

      Davidson, Ian

      Bayley, Hugh

      Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

      Beard, Nigel

      Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

      Begg, Miss Anne

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)

      Denham, rh John

      Beith, rh A. J.

      Dismore, Andrew

      Benn, Hilary

      Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

      Benton, Joe (Bootle)

      Dobson, rh Frank

      Berry, Roger

      Dodds, Nigel

      Best, Harold

      Donaldson, Jeffrey M.

      Betts, Clive

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      Blackman, Liz

      Doughty, Sue

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      Boateng, rh Paul

      Drew, David (Stroud)

      Borrow, David

      Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

      Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

      Eagle, Maria (L 'pool Garston)

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Edwards, Huw

      Bradshaw, Ben

      Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

      Breed, Colin

      Ewing, Annabelle

      Brennan, Kevin

      Farrelly, Paul

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      Fisher, Mark

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Fitzpatrick, Jim

      Browne, Desmond

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Bryant, Chris

      Flint, Caroline

      Buck, Ms Karen

      Follett, Barbara

      Burden, Richard

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      Burgon, Colin

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      Burnett, John

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye

      Burnham, Andy

      Burnside, David

      Foulkes, rh George

      Burstow, Paul

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Gardiner, Barry

      Cairns, David

      George, Andrew (St. Ives)

      Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

      George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Gerrard, Neil

      Campbell, Gregory (E Lond'y)

      Gidley, Sandra

      Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)

      Gilroy, Linda

      Caplin, Ivor

      Godsiff, Roger

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Goggins, Paul

      Casale, Roger

      Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

      Caton, Martin

      Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

      Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

      Grogan, John

      Challen, Colin

      Hain, rh Peter

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

      Chidgey, David

      Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

      Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentalands)

      Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

      Harman, rh Ms Harriet

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

      Healey, John

      Heath, David

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

      110

      Hendrick, Mark

      Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

      Heppell, John

      Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

      Hermon, Lady

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Hesford, Stephen

      Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston

      Heyes, David

      Hill, Keith (Streatham)

      Martlew, Eric

      Hodge, Margaret

      Meacher, rh Michael

      Holmes, Paul

      Merron, Gillian

      Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)

      Michael, rh Alun

      Hoon, rh Geoffrey

      Miliband, David

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Miller, Andrew

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

      Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

      Mole, Chris

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

      Moran, Margaret

      Morgan, Julie

      Howells, Dr. Kim

      Morley, Elliot

      Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston

      Mountford, Kali

      Mudie, George

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Mullin, Chris

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)

      Hutton, rh John

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Iddon, Dr. Brian

      Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

      Illsley, Eric

      Oaten, Mark (Winchester)

      Ingram, rh Adam

      O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      Olner, Bill

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate

      Organ, Diana

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

      Owen, Albert

      Jamieson, David

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Jenkins, Brian

      Picking, Anne

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Pickthall, Colin

      Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

      Pike, Peter (Burnley)

      Jones, Kevan (N Durham)

      Pollard, Kerry

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

      Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Pound, Stephen

      Keetch, Paul

      Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E

      Kemp, Fraser

      King, Andy (Rugby)

      Prescott, rh John

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow

      Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Primarolo, rh Dawn

      Kumar, Dr. Ashok

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Lamb, Norman

      Pugh, Dr. John

      Lammy, David

      Purchase, Ken

      Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

      Purnell, James

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Lepper, David

      Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

      Leslie, Christopher

      Raynsford, rh Nick

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Reed, Andy (Loughborough)

      Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

      Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Love, Andrew

      Rendel, David

      Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

      Robertson, Angus (Moray)

      Luke, Iain (Dundee E)

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland

      Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      McCabe, Stephen

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Robinson, Mrs Iris (Strangford)

      MacDonald, Calum

      Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

      McDonnell, John

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      MacDougall, John

      Rooney, Terry

      McFall, John

      Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

      McGuire, Mrs Anne

      Ruane, Chris

      McIsaac, Shona

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      McKechin, Ann

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      McNulty, Tony

      Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      Salmond, Alex

      McWalter, Tony

      Sanders, Adrian

      McWilliam, John

      Savidge, Malcolm

      Mahon, Mrs Alice

      Sawford, Phil

      Mallaber, Judy

      Shaw, Jonathan

      111

      Sheerman, Barry

      Truswell, Paul

      Sheridan, Jim

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

      Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown

      Singh, Marsha

      Smith, Angela (Basildon)

      Twigg, Derek (Halton)

      Smith, John (Glamorgan)

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

      Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

      Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

      Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

      Ward, Claire

      Southworth, Helen

      Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

      Spellar, rh John

      Watts, David

      Squire, Rachel

      Weir, Michael

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      White, Brian

      Steinberg, Gerry

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Stoate, Dr. Howard

      Williams, Betty (Conwy)

      Strang, rh Dr. Gavin

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Straw, rh Jack

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Stringer, Graham

      Wills, Michael

      Stunell, Andrew

      Winnick, David

      Sutcliffe, Gerry

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

      Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

      Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

      Wishart, Pete

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Wood, Mike (Batley)

      Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

      Woodward, Shaun

      Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

      Woolas, phil

      Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

      Worthington, Tony

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Wright, David (Telford)

      Timms, Stephen

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Tipping, Paddy

      Younger-Ross, Richard

      Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Trickett, Jon

      Mr. Nick Ainger and

      Trimble, rh David

      Charlotte Atkins

      Question accordingly negatived.
      THE CHAIRMAN then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour.
      Amendment made: No. 17, in clause 1, page2, line 18, at and insert—
      () No order shall be made under this section more than two years after the commencement of this Act, except for the purpose of revoking provision contained in a previous order..—[Mr. Raynsford.]
      Clause 1, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 2

      SUPPLEMENTAL PROVISIONS
      Amendments made: No. 18, in page 2, line 32, leave out from "(c.51))" to end of line 33.
      No. 19, in page 2, line 35, leave out from "1947" to end of line 37.
      No. 20, in page 3, line 5, at end insert—
      '() In its application to Northern Ireland, this Act has effect as if—

      (a) for references to the Secretary of State there were substituted references to the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety;

      (b) for references to a fire authority or fire authorities there were substituted references to the Fire Authority for Northern Ireland;

      (c) for references to a fire brigade there were substituted references to the fire brigade within the meaning of the Fire Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1984 (S.I.1984/ 1821 (N.I.11));

      (d) in section 1(1), "made by statutory instrument" were omitted;

      112

      (e) in section 1(2)(b) and (c), "another fire authority or to" were omitted;

      (f) for section 1(7) there were substituted—

      "(7) The power to make an order under this section shall be exercisable by statutory rule for the purposes of the Statutory Rules (Northern Ireland) Order 1979 (S.I. 1979/1573 (N.I. 12)).
      (7A) An order under this section that makes provision authorised by subsection (1)(a) shall be subject to negative resolution within the meaning of section 41(6) of the Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) 1954 (c.33(N.I.))."'
      —[Mr. Raynsford.]
      Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.,

      TITLE
      Amendment made: No. 21, in line 1, leave out
      on the Secretary of State'.
      —[Mr. Raynsford.]
      Bill reported, with amendment.
      Order for Third Reading read.
      9.22 pm
      Mr. Raynsford: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
      Today, we have had the opportunity to debate in detail the issues arising from the powers that we are seeking in the Bill. Like the events of the past year, these debates have illustrated how difficult it is to strike the right balance between the competing interests and points of view of the staff of fire brigades who want a fair level of pay for the difficult and dangerous job they do; the employers who have to manage fire brigades so they provide a good service to the public within budget; the public, who are entitled to expect protection from fires and other accidents; and the armed forces and the police, who have been diverted from their usual duties during the current dispute, often at significant personal and professional cost. But in the end, that balance must be struck. In the public interest, we cannot allow the dispute about pay in the fire service to continue indefinitely. A resolution must be found one way or another, and that is a responsibility that we as a Government must accept.
      The Bill will provide us with the powers to draw a line under the current pay dispute and begin to set a new direction for the fire service. If the House agrees, it will enable the Secretary of State, in England and Wales only, to make orders to do two things. Under clause 1(1)(a), he will be able to set or modify the pay and conditions of fire brigade members. Under clause 1(1)(b), he will be able to give specific or general directions to fire authorities about the use or disposal of property or facilities.
      The powers in the Bill extend to Northern Ireland, where they will be exercised by the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. For the time being, that means that they will be exercised under the direction of the Secretary of State, but as and when devolution is restored they will revert to Executive Ministers.
      As a result of amendments made today, the powers in the Bill will have a limited life and will lapse two years after Royal Assent. Any orders already made will remain in force unless specifically revoked.

      113
      My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister said on Second Reading that he hoped he would not need to use the Bill. He believed that it was still possible to reach a negotiated settlement and that the time required for the Bill to become law would provide a further opportunity for that settlement to be reached. Hon. Members will be aware that, not long after he made that speech, the employers made a further offer to the FBU. So far as pay is concerned, the offer remains as before: 16 per cent. over two and a half years. The employers said that they could not increase that amount, which is generous in any case, but they have been able to take another look at the modernisation elements of the offer. Modernisation is still the bedrock of the deal, but the employers have clarified what they propose. That gives firefighters more assurances about some of the matters that concern them, especially changes to their duty systems and shift patterns. I believe that the employers have responded to much of the misunderstanding and misinformation that has surrounded the dispute. Firefighters can see that what is on offer is fair. It does mean change, but it does not mean reductions in safety or arbitrary changes to shifts for the sake of it. The FBU is taking soundings about the offer and will decide whether to accept it at a further recall conference on 12 June.
      There are therefore grounds for hope that a negotiated deal is within reach, but our optimism about that prospect should be tempered by prudence. We have thought that agreement was near on previous occasions. I cannot help wondering what role the introduction of the Bill may have played in persuading the two parties to try once again to reach agreement. I am sorry to say, however, that even if the two sides are able to reach broad agreement we cannot be certain that that will be an end to it. The terms of the employers' offer mean that there would still have to be detailed negotiations over the next few months. It is therefore important that we enact the powers in the Bill so that we can intervene if any such negotiations break down. We therefore intend, with the agreement of the House, to press ahead with further consideration of the Bill in another place.
      Today, we have considered a wide range of issues, from the right to strike, to rationalising fire stations, to the role of secret ballots. Those are all issues that it is right for us to debate. I urge hon. Members, however, to bear in mind that the Bill is only a temporary measure. Although we should still get it right, what may be right, reasonable and feasible as a short-term, stop-gap measure may not be what we would want for the longer term.
      Mr. Davidson: The Minister says that it is a temporary measure. Does he recall that income tax was introduced on the same basis?
      Mr. Raynsford: I am happy to say that I was not alive when income tax was introduced, but in my recollection William Pitt did not introduce a sunset clause. We have accepted a sunset clause, so my hon. Friend's concerns should not prove too serious.
      Mr. Andrew Turner: Does the Minister accept that it would be wrong to use a temporary Bill of
      114
      this nature to regionalise fire services and to take control away from local authorities or, indeed, to take control rooms away from local authorities such as my own?
      Mr. Raynsford: We make no such proposal in the Bill. It is a temporary measure that is focused on two issues. First, it gives the Secretary of State the power, if necessary, in the absence of an agreed negotiated settlement to the dispute, to impose a settlement in those circumstances. As we have said, we do not want to do that. We hope that there will be a negotiated settlement, and there are good grounds for believing that there may be, but the Bill acts as a stop-gap in case that is not possible. Secondly, the Bill gives the Secretary of State the power to direct fire authorities on the use and disposal of assets and facilities, for the obvious reason that that enables us to protect the public interest in the event of further strike action where it is necessary to ensure that appropriate appliances are available. Those are the purposes of the Bill and it does not have the wider effects that the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner) suggests.
      What might be right in the short term might not be what we would want for the longer term. We have to deal now with the very serious situation provoked by the failure to reach a settlement for more than a year. The Bill is directed at that; it does not attempt to deal with the need for a new long-term framework for the fire service. That means that we have to work within the current structure, accepting that it is flawed. For the future, however, we have the chance to set a new direction for the fire service through the forthcoming White Paper. That is where we will set out our thinking on the role of the service, on how it should be organised, and on getting the right relationship between central Government, the fire authorities and the fire service. We need to provide clearer leadership, and we will start with the publication of the White Paper.
      Implementing our policies will require legislation, which we will seek at the earliest opportunity, so that we can put the fire service on a new footing that recognises properly the wide range of activities that it is already carrying out—a far wider range of services than those defined in the Fire Services Act 1947, which still provides the statutory basis for the service. Over the next few months, therefore, we expect to have a debate about what we say in the White Paper. After that, the House will have a full opportunity to consider in detail the necessary legislation.
      That legislation will be the right vehicle for finding longer-term solutions to the problems that the service faces: solutions that are not overshadowed by a long drawn out industrial dispute, but that focus instead on the needs of our society in the early 21st century and on the challenges that we face in responding to those needs. Those challenges will require measures to reduce the number of fires and the number of deaths and injuries caused by fire, to improve community safety and the effectiveness of the fire service in preventing as well as responding to fires and other emergencies, and—last, but by no means least—to provide a rewarding and properly rewarded career for the men and women in our fire service who undertake the difficult and dangerous tasks on which we all depend. I commend the Bill to the House.
      9.31 pm
      Mr. Hammond: The background to the Bill is the long dispute in the fire service, for which the Fire Brigades Union and the Government must share some responsibility. Notwithstanding the history of this matter, I believe that all hon. Members—whatever opinions they have expressed this evening—hope that there will be a settlement on 12 June. The Government have decided to press ahead with the Bill anyway, perhaps as a form of insurance, or perhaps as part of their negotiating tactics—something that the Minister effectively alluded to earlier.
      The Conservatives look forward to the White Paper and to having an opportunity to discuss in a more leisurely way the long-term future of the fire service to ensure that it delivers the service that the people of this country need while providing the career structure and fair pay and conditions that firefignters delivering an incredibly important service to the community expect and deserve.
      Mr. Roy Beggs: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the services provided by the fire service go beyond attending fires? Will he bear it in mind that, when there are serious accidents, the fire service is often called upon to relieve the suffering that occurs? I have in mind a recent serious incident in my constituency, in which a young man died as a result of a motor cycle accident. The road was covered with blood, yet there was no arrangement in place to ensure that it was hosed down. The blood was emerging through the sand covering the scene of the accident. Let us therefore take account of the wider involvement of members of the fire brigade.
      Mr. Hammond: The hon. Gentleman is right; it is not called the fire and rescue service for nothing. As a Northern Ireland Member, he will know of the role that fire brigades play in protecting us against the effects of terrorism, which, sadly, we on the mainland also increasingly have to consider.
      We have supported wholeheartedly the strategic objective of the Government and the employers to link pay to the reform of working practice, even if we have not always agreed with the Government's tactics. We have indicated to the Government our willingness to give a fair wind to a piece of emergency legislation designed to impose a settlement, ensure public safety, lift the burden from the military and pave the way for a longer-term and fairer arrangement that will ensure fair pay and conditions for firefighters while recognising the public's need for certainty in the protection that they expect from one of the key front-line emergency rescue services on which our safety and security increasingly depend.
      Conservative Members made it clear at the outset on Second Reading that we required three changes to enable us to endorse the Bill as an effective, if draconian, emergency measure: first, it needed to be time-limited; secondly, there needed to be provision for proper canvassing of the views of all fire brigade employees before the Secretary of State's emergency powers were used; and, thirdly, there needed to be a power to invoke a no-strike provision to give the Bill teeth. The Bill introduced on Second Reading did not meet those criteria.
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      I am delighted that the Government have recognised the need for the Bill to be time-limited so that it is clearly seen as a response to the specific situation in which we find ourselves, but I am surprised by the resistance of the Minister for Local Government and the Regions to the idea of a ballot. I thought that he and the Deputy Prime Minister had indicated that they feel strongly that sense would have prevailed long ago if only all members could have been balloted and that a ballot is an essential step that should be taken. The public would find it difficult to accept the Secretary of State imposing a settlement because of a failure to reach agreement on a negotiated settlement when nobody had consulted, through a secret postal ballot, all the people being asked to accept that negotiated settlement about whether they were in favour of it. I am disappointed that the Government did not accept such a provision.
      Of course, I am not surprised that the Government did not accept the proposal for a no-strike provision, although I am disappointed. I emphasise the fact that the no-strike provision had a specific target, just as the other powers have a specific target. The powers would have been permissive to the Secretary of State—they would not have required him to do anything. The Bill has a limited, two-year life, so Labour Members who got terribly excited about what a future Conservative Secretary of State might do with those powers need not have done so.
      Jeremy Corbyn: It will never happen.
      Mr. Hammond: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, because even in my wildest dreams I do not expect a Conservative Secretary of State to exercise those powers in the next two years, so it is simply not an issue. He should have put more trust in his Deputy Prime Minister and Government.
      The Bill has a limited life in which to deal with the emergency period when we simply do not have the military resources to cope with a strike, and the Deputy Prime Minister himself has acknowledged that any such strike would place lives in danger. What the arrangements for the future should be is an open question. The Minister says that the White Paper is still coming soon, as it was when we last debated these matters a month ago. We recognise that, if there are any restrictions on the rights of fire brigade members to take industrial action, they will have to be compensated for in such circumstances by an independent and fair mechanism to determine pay.
      Despite all the trumped up and fantastically exaggerated scenarios advanced by Labour Members and despite all the synthetic anger about what was imagined to be the thin end of a very large wedge driven into industrial relations, no one answered the key question: what is the point of this emergency Bill and the powers that the Secretary of State is taking if he has no sanction with which to enforce them? How can he ensure public safety when he has acknowledged that strikes will put lives at risk, but has taken no power to prevent them?
      The Bill was a far from perfect vehicle, but it was a vehicle, as the opportunity existed to grasp the nettle, to put public safety first and turn it into an effective, short-term emergency measure that would restore public

      117
      safety, relieve pressure on the military and settle the pay dispute. We could also have considered, in a less pressurised atmosphere, the future role of and arrangements for delivery of a modern fire and rescue service following the publication of the White Paper.
      The Government have accepted that the Bill should be time-limited, which is a great step forward, but it would be inappropriate to go down the route of imposed settlements—perhaps less generous than those previously on the table—without properly testing rank-and-file opinion through a secret ballot. It is pointless to introduce the powers that the Government are taking without also taking powers to enforce a settlement made under them.
      Sadly, the Government have not been able to bring themselves to follow the inexorable logic of their own Bill, and match the power that they are giving themselves to impose a settlement with a power to enforce such a settlement and protect public safety and military preparedness by imposing, if necessary, a strike ban during the two-year life of the Bill.
      Perhaps, given his background and history, it was optimistic of us to expect the Deputy Prime Minister to be able to break out of the mould; but that is what is required to make the Bill the effective emergency measure that we were prepared to support—a Bill that would do what the people would expect the Deputy Prime Minister to do, and put public safety, and the concerns that he himself has expressed in regard to public safety in the event of a further strike, ahead of any other consideration. I strongly believe that that is the primary concern of our constituents, and that they will see protection of public safety as the principal purpose for which they sent us here.
      The Deputy Prime Minister has not grasped the nettle. We wish him well in achieving a settlement of the dispute, but he has failed the test that we set as a condition of our support for the additional powers. Therefore—I say this with some regret—we cannot support the Bill.
      9.41 pm
      John McDonnell: We have had a long, continuing debate during the current dispute, and we all hope that we are nearing the end of that dispute: we hope for a settlement next week.
      I suspect that the Bill may be used to try to threaten the union—that it will be used if there is no dispute. I do not think that firefighters can be threatened: I think that they will stand firm no matter what, and that they will only allow this dispute to be resolved if they feel that the resolution is just. If the Bill does not constitute a threat, it is intended for practical implementation; and I do not think that it stands up to the test of scrutiny in that context.
      Let me make a point that has already been made about the logic of the Bill. What will the Government do if, after they have sought to impose a settlement, the trade unionists still refuse to accept it? They will be drawn down the path represented by the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond)—that of banning strikes and banning trade union membership.
      I hope that there will be a settlement next week; but I also hope that the Bill, with its sunset clause, will not be needed for implementation purposes. I hope that we will
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      allow the individual negotiations that will be necessary after next week's hoped-for resolution—negotiations on hours of work, shift patterns and the provision of local services—to take place locally, in the atmosphere that once prevailed in the fire service. There used to be local negotiation, and co-operation between union and employers.
      In that event the Bill will not be required; but we must send a message to our own Government that we should never present such legislation again, we should never again try to undermine trade union rights, and—more important, we should never again get into a mess of this kind. The dispute could have been settled last July. We had a second opportunity to resolve it in November, and we failed to take it. Let us hope that we do not fail next week and that the Bill and its implementation will never be necessary again.
      9.43 pm
      Matthew Green: Until the introduction of the Bill, we supported the Government's strategy throughout the strike. We have now departed from that line, because we feel—it is a matter of judgment—that this is not the right way in which to resolve the dispute. Indeed, as has been said, the Bill's very existence may harden opposition to such resolution in some instances. As I have said, it is a matter of judgment; there is no hard-and-fast rule, and we realise that there is an element of guesswork in the assessment of the Bill's likely impact on the feelings of FBU members.
      We hope to see the White Paper soon, although I fear that the word "soon" should be replaced by the word "mañana", because it is always being promised. It is always threatening to appear. I do not quite go to bed expecting to wake up and discover that it has been published, but we have been given the impression that it is about to appear. We would welcome its early publication because there are issues that need to be addressed, not the least of which is pensions. The financing of pensions is one of the biggest issues that the fire service faces, and we want a resolution to it.
      We wanted amendments to three specific areas, the first of which was the sunset clause. We are glad that the Government accepted some movement in that regard. We would have preferred that the Bill fall sooner than after two years, but such a time limit is acceptable.
      On the substantive issues of a secret ballot of members and the introduction by the Government of new pay proposals through independent arbitration, we felt that such measures would give the employers and the Fire Brigades Union the confidence that this was a way forward—a way not of creating greater difficulties, but of resolving the dispute. Unfortunately, the Government saw fit to reject both of those measures; had they accepted them, we might have shifted our position and supported the Bill. One glimmer of hope is the Government's resistance to the Conservatives' idea of banning membership of trade unions. The Conservatives will came to regret suggesting banning the membership of those who carry on a dispute for a long time.
      Overall, the Bill sets a very dangerous precedent. A particular concern is the use that will be made of it not this time, but in future years by future Governments. It will be alluded to tirne and again. There will be those

      119
      who will say, "We had to do it then, so we must do it now," and such legislation will be applied to different disputes and different unions. I am afraid that it could be used repeatedly, and all because a Labour Government have seen fit to introduce this Bill. Our judgment remains that this Bill will not help to resolve the dispute. We accept the strategy that modernisation and pay must go hand in hand, but we believe that that can be delivered through other means. The way in which the Bill has been framed will not help to end the dispute, and we will continue to oppose it tonight.
      9.47 pm
      Jeremy Corbyn: This is a very sad day for the Labour party and for this House. We are passing this legislation apparently as part of industrial negotiations, but in reality it threatens to take away a fundamental tenet of the British labour movement scene: the right freely to negotiate wages and conditions. The Government are not prepared to negotiate wages and conditions; instead, they are threatening to remove that power and impose a settlement. That has caused anger among ordinary firefighters—members of the Fire Brigades Union—and as a result, their attitude towards this House and this Government is serious. The House would do well to recall many of the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) during these debates, and to thank him for all the work that he has put into using this House to scrutinise Government legislation.
      Like other hon. Members, I have met and talked to many firefighters in my constituency. They entered into a dispute knowing full well that the Government were reluctant, shall we say, to concede their wage demands. But they felt that as an emergency service—a service that everyone in this House relies on and is happy to praise when an emergency is sorted out in their constituencies—theirs had a good case and a good deal of public support, which it certainly does. Now, they are being told of the possibility of an imposed settlement, or that under that threat they will agree to some new proposal—all of which is to be paid for, apparently, by the sale of buildings and job losses. For us to have reached this situation is a very sad clay indeed.
      When the question is raised of what will be done next—I raised it in previous debates with the Deputy Prime Minister—there is an obvious answer. If the Government seek to impose a settlement and the firefighters continue their strike action, something else will have to be done.
      The logic is clear: the procedure is in line with Conservative proposals to take deeper and greater control of industrial problems that should be sorted out through collective bargaining. I hope that the Bill will not be passed, but I suspect that it will. It will certainly not gain my support. I am pleased only about the sunset clause, but it is a pity that it is such a long time away.
      The House should represent ordinary people. The Labour party and the Labour Government should represent ordinary trade unionists, who have supported us throughout their lives. Such people are looking for support from our party and our Government. As I said, today is a truly sad occasion. I hope that a similar Bill
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      will not be applied to other services. I have organised in the public sector and I know the pressures on ambulance drivers and people who work in accident and emergency departments. Such people love their job, but they feel a sense of moral blackmail all the time. We should treat emergency workers properly and with respect. We should recognise their rights under the International Labour Organisation and other human rights conventions and not pass legislation such as the Bill. We should respect the right of independent trade unions freely to negotiate and to reach a free and independent settlement.
      9.51 pm
      Mr. Hogg: The hon. Member for Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn) has expressed his opposition to the Bill. I agree with him, but I must say that my process of reasoning is not exactly the same. He knows that we agree quite often, which must distress us both. We agreed on Iraq, for example, but that is by the way, as we are dealing with the Fire Services Bill.
      I do not believe that the Bill should secure a Third Reading and I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) has made that clear on behalf of the official Opposition. I disagree with the Bill for several reasons. First, it has not been properly debated. I greatly objected to the programme motion: I spoke and voted against it. Its effect was to shut out many amendments—and, indeed, speeches—which we otherwise could have debated. Many amendments have not been discussed, far less voted on, because of the programme motion. The other place will have to debate an imperfectly considered Bill, which is itself a reason for opposing Third Reading.
      There are other more substantive reasons for opposing the Bill. We have to start by recognising that, notwithstanding its sunset clause, the Bill is draconian. It gives to the Secretary of State—the Deputy Prime Minister—a unilateral power to vary conditions of service. I made that point in debating the first group of amendments. It also empowers the Secretary of State to order the disposal of property and to impose financial imposts on third parties. The powers conferred on the Deputy Prime Minister are substantial, and the only check on them is the negative procedure. Again, we debated that point in respect of the first group of amendments. I do not believe that the negative procedure is a proper or sufficient check on the Secretary of State's powers—a good reason in itself for not supporting the Bill.
      I must ask why the Bill was ever introduced. The reason is that the Fire Brigades Union embarked on industrial action. If that union had not embarked on industrial action, we would never have had the Bill. The House should bear in mind the fact that a power is already on the statute book to allow the Attorney-General to go to the courts and obtain an injunction. If the Attorney-General had done his duty, he would have made an application to the High Court for an injunction and there would then have been no requirement to interfere with the contractual rights of the Fire Brigades Union. The Attorney-General would have done his stuff.

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      I believe that it is lamentable that the Attorney-General is not a Member of this House. If he were, we, the elected representatives, could have asked him why he was not going to exercise his discretion under statute.
      Because he is a member of the other place, and not subject to proper scrutiny or debate, he is not subject to such inquiries. It is another example of the contempt that this Government—whom I detest—have for democracy. If they had any respect for democracy, they would have the senior adviser on legal matters to the Government in this House, but they choose not to do so. The Bill has been introduced solely because the Attorney-General would not do his duty, as prescribed by statute, and go to court. Had he done so, we would not have had the Bill.
      The Bill allows the FBU to continue going on strike. The Bill provides no penalties for going on strike, but any hon. Member will recognise that those members of the FBU who go on strike are putting at risk the lives and property of their fellow citizens. What possible moral right is there to do that in a civilised society? It is profoundly wrong. If people do not understand that, the House should take the power in the Bill to say that it is wrong. I gave the House the opportunity, in new clauses 1, 2 and 3, to say that industrial action should not be permitted.
      I never criticise the Chair, as you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but those new clauses were not selected—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. The right hon. and learned Gentleman must not use Third Reading to refer to those new clauses now.
      Mr. Hogg: It is permitted, however, to comment on what is in the Bill and to refer obliquely to what is not in the Bill. What is not in the Bill is a power to protect citizens from the actions of the FBU—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Obliquely or otherwise, the right hon. and learned Gentleman should stick to what is in the Bill.
      Mr. Hogg: What is in the Bill is a draconian power, given to the Deputy Prime Minister, to vary contracts of employment unilaterally, to dispose of property and to impose charges on third parties that are not properly constrained by democratic control. That is what is in the Bill, and it is a scandal. Furthermore, the result of the programme motion is that the House has not been able fully, adequately or properly to discuss, far less vote on, the contents of the Bill. We will send to the other place a Bill that may be otiose, but that gives to the Minister or his boss draconian powers. All of us know that those powers are not properly constrained. That is a disgrace, and that is what is in the Bill.
      9.58 pm
      Mr. Drew: I cannot agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman, even though the conclusions we reach are similar. As various hon. Members have said, especially Labour Members, the Bill is not only the wrong Bill, but it comes at the most inopportune time. I cannot think of a worse occasion to introduce a Bill that could be construed as anti-union than on the eve of an
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      important ballot, an important meeting, and an important moment in a dispute that everybody wants to see settled.
      The great sadness felt by many Labour Members is that, although a settlement will be achieved, it will arouse resentment among firefighters. I have spoken to many firefighters, both before the dispute began and during it. They have told me about their hopes for the discussions that took place when the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. O'Brien), was the Home Office Minister with responsibility for the fire service. They wanted to move to a modernised service based on risk-based management. Those hopes have been ripped asunder by the dispute, and this Bill will only make matters worse.
      That saddens me greatly. No Government—certainly no Labour Government—should intervene in an industrial dispute when there are far better ways to achieve a settlement. I do not like the term "modernise" very much, but we could make the service better and more efficient, and ensure that it could do the things that all hon. Members want.
      However, the most important matter has been alluded to many times by Opposition Front-Bench Members, in connection with an amendment tabled in Committee. We have at least had the opportunity to see the Opposition's approach to these matters. That is one good thing to come out of the debate, but those of us who oppose the Bill feel that the Government have taken a risk by introducing it at this time. It does not take a stretch of the imagination to see that the Bill could be followed by a raft of anti-union legislation. That much has been made only too clear by Labour Members this evening.
      We have managed to get a sunset clause inserted into the Bill. That is our only victory this evening, but it could be a pyrrhic victory. It affects only this Bill, at this time. If there is another public-sector dispute in the future, some other Government could introduce legislation that is timeless, rather than time limited. Such legislation would be designed to bring in anti-union controls that go against the nature of a state that believes in both human rights and labour rights.
      That is why some Labour Members are dismayed by the Bill. We will vote accordingly this evening.
      10.3 pm
      Mr. Llwyd: This short and insidious Bill introduces unwarranted interference in legitimate negotiating rights. I questioned the Minister earlier about the use of the word "disposal", and his response confirms my view that the Bill will be a vehicle for wholesale cuts, especially in the smaller rural services. I am very unhappy with the Bill, and I shall be very pleased to vote against it, as will my colleagues and many other hon. Members. The Bill is an insidious attempt to skew the process of negotiation. It is a gross interference with workers' rights. It is incredible that a Labour Government of any hue—new, old, or in any shape or form—should have introduced the Bill. I am utterly unconvinced by the Minister's explanation of the use of the word "disposal". I am sure that there will be wholesale cuts in rural fire services. We will return to that debate at some point.
      10.4 pm
      Rev. Martin Smyth: I appreciate the opportunity to say a few words in this debate. Because of the guillotine, or the programme motion, to use the modern name, we were unable to discuss the provisions relating to Northern Ireland, so I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the fire service in Northern Ireland. Through the years of terrorism, its members have suffered, and some have given their lives, serving the community. As a result of the lawlessness that still prevails in certain areas, firefighters, like other public servants, are attacked as they serve the community.
      Reference has been made to sunset clauses. As someone who used to watch those old westerns where the hero rode off into the sunset, I w Drider who will be riding off as the hero in this case. The fire brigades will still be around when we are gone.
      Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—
      The House divided: Ayes 263, Noes 198.

      Division No. 216]

      [10:05 pm

      AYES

      Ainger, Nick

      Coaker, Vernon

      Alexander, Douglas

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      Allen, Graham

      Colman, Tony

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)

      Corston, Jean

      Cousins, Jim

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Cranston, Ross

      Atherton, Ms Candy

      Crausby, David

      Atkins, Charlotte

      Cruddas, Jon

      Bailey, Adrian

      Cummings, John

      Baird, Vera

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Banks, Tony

      Darling, rh Alistair

      Battle, John

      Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

      Bayley, Hugh

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Beard, Nigel

      Denham, rh John

      Begg, Miss Anne

      Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

      Benn, Hilary

      Dobson, rh Frank

      Benton, Joe (Bootle)

      Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)

      Best, Harold

      Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

      Belts, Clive

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Blackman, Liz

      Edwards, Huw

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

      Boateng, rh Paul

      Farrelly, Paul

      Borrow, David

      Fisher, Mark

      Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

      Fitzpatrick, Jim

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Bradshaw, Ben

      Flint, Caroline

      Brennan, Kevin

      Follett, Barbara

      Browne, Desmond

      Foster, rh Derek

      Bryant, Chris

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      Buck, Ms Karen

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye

      Burden, Richard

      Burnham, Andy

      Foulkes, rh George

      Byers, rh Stephen

      Francis, Dr. Hywel

      Cairns, David

      Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)

      Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

      Gardiner, Barry

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

      Caplin, Ivor

      Gilroy, Linda

      Casale, Roger

      Godsiff, Roger

      Caton, Martin

      Goggins, Paul

      Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

      Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

      Challen, Colin

      Grogan, John

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      Hain, rh Peter

      Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

      Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

      Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & chrystion)

      Harman, rh Ms Harriet

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Healey, John

      124

      Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

      Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

      Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

      Hendrick, Mark

      Martlew, Eric

      Hepburn, Stephen

      Meacher, rh Michael

      Hesford, Stephen

      Merron, Gillian

      Heyes, David

      Michael, rh Alun

      Hill, Keith (Streatham)

      Miliband, David

      Hodge, Margaret

      Miller, Andrew

      Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)

      Mole, Chris

      Hoon, rh Geoffrey

      Moran, Margaret

      Hope, Phil (Corby)

      Morgan, Julie

      Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

      Morley, Elliot

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

      Morris, rh Estelle

      Mountford, Kali

      Howells, Dr. Kim

      Mudie. George

      Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmaston)

      Mullin, chris

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)

      Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

      Naysmith, Dr. Doug

      Hutton, rh John

      Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)

      Iddon Dr. Brian

      O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

      Illsley, Eric

      Olner, Bill

      Ingram, rh Adam

      O'Neill, Martin

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      Organ. Diana

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Palmer, Dr, Nick

      Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

      Pearson, Ian

      Jamieson, David

      Picking, Anne

      Jenkins, Brian

      Pickthall, Colin

      Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

      Pike, Peter (Burnley)

      Pollard, Kerry

      Jones, Helen(Warrington N)

      Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

      Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

      Pope, Greg(Hyndburn)

      Jones, Kevan (N Durham)

      Pound, Stephen

      Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

      Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E

      Jowell, rh Tessa

      Joyce Eric (Falkirk W)

      Prescott, rh John

      Keen, Ann (Brentford)

      primgrolo, rh Dawn

      Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Khabra, Piara S.

      purchase, Ken

      King, Andy (Rugby)

      Purnell, James

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

      Quin, rh Joyce

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

      Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

      Kumar, Dr. Ashok

      Raynsford, rh Nick

      Lammy, David

      Reed, Andy (Loughborough)

      Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

      Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Lepper, David

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Leslie, Christopher

      Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Linton, Martin

      Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

      Roche Mrs Barbara

      Love, Andrew

      Rooney, Terry

      Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

      Ross Ernie (Dundee W)

      Luke, Iain (Dundee E)

      Ruane, Chris

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

      McCabe, Stephen

      McCartney, rh Ian

      Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Savidge, Malcolm

      MacDonald, Calum

      Sawford, Phil

      MacDougall, John

      Shaw, Jonathan

      McFall, John

      Sheerman, Barry

      McGuire, Mrs Anne

      Sheridan, Jim

      McIsaac, Shona

      Smith, Angela (Basildon)

      McKechin, Ann

      Smith, John (Glamorgan)

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Southworth, Helen

      McNulty, Tony

      Spellar, rh John

      Mactaggrt, Fiona

      Squire, Rachel

      McWalter, Tony

      Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

      McWilliam, John

      Steinberg, Gerry

      Mallaber, Judy

      Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

      Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Stoate, Dr. Howard

      Straw, rh Jack

      125

      Stringer, Graham

      White, Brian

      Sutcliffe, Gerry

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

      Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

      Williams, Betty (Conwy)

      Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

      Wills, Michael

      Timms, Stephen

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C

      Tipping, Paddy

      Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

      Woodward, Shaun

      Trickett, Jon

      Woolas, Phil

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Worthington, Tony

      Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)

      Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmounth)

      Twigg, Derek (Halton)

      Wright, David (Telford)

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

      Ward, Claire

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

      Mr. Fraser Kemp and

      Watts, David

      Mr. John Heppell

      NOES

      Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

      Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)

      Allan, Richard

      Amess, David

      Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

      Ancram, rh Michael

      Arbuthnot, rh James

      Dismore, Andrew

      Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

      Djanogly, Jonathan

      Austin, John

      Dodds, Nigel

      Bacon, Richard

      Donaldson, Jeffrey M.

      Baldry, Tony

      Doughty, Sue

      Barker, Gregory

      Drew, David (Stroud)

      Barnes, Harry

      Duncan, Alan (Rutland)

      Baron, John (Billericay)

      Evans, Nigel

      Barrett, John

      Ewing, Annabelle

      Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)

      Fallon, Michael

      Beith rh A. J.

      Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)

      Bellingham, Henry

      Bercow, John

      Forth, rh Eric

      Beresford, Sir Paul

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      Berry, Roger

      Francois, Mark

      Blunt, Crispin

      Gale, Roger(N Thanet)

      Boswell, Tim

      George, Andrew (St. Ives)

      Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey)

      Gerrard, Neil

      Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

      Brady, Graham

      Gibson, Dr. Ian

      Brazier, Julian

      Gidley, Sandra

      Breed, Colin

      Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

      Goodman, Paul

      Brooke, Mrs Anntte L.

      Gray,James (N Wilts)

      Browning, Mrs Angela

      Grayling, Chris

      Burgon, Colin

      Green, Damian (Ashford)

      Burnett, John

      Green Matthew (Ludlow)

      Burns, Simon

      Greenway, John

      Burnside, David

      Grieve Dominic

      Burstow, Paul

      Gummer, rh John

      Burt, Alistair

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      Butterfill, John

      Hammond, Philip

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)

      Campbell, Gregory (E Lond'y)

      Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)

      Hawkins, Nick

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Hayes, John (S Holland)

      Chidgey, David

      Heald, Oliver

      Chope, Christopher

      Heath, David

      Clappison, James

      Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

      Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

      Hendry, Charles

      Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Hermon, Lady

      Cohen, Harry

      Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

      Coleman, Iain

      Hogg, rh Douglas

      Collins, Tim

      Holmes, Paul

      Connarty, Michael

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Conway, Derek

      Horam, John (Orpington)

      Corbyn, Jeremy

      Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

      Curry, rh David

      Jack, rh Michael

      Davidson, Ian

      Jenkin, Bernard

      Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

      Johnson, Boris (Henley)

      126

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      Keetch, Paul

      Salmond, Alex

      Laing, Mrs Eleanor

      Sanders, Adrian

      Lait, Mrs Jacqui

      Sayeed, Jonathan

      Lamb, Norman

      Selous, Andrew

      Lansley, Andrew

      Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian

      Laws, David (Yeovil)

      Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

      Leigh, Edward

      Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

      Letwin, rh Oliver

      Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

      Liddell-Grainger, Ian

      Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

      Lidington, David

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)

      Loughton, Tim

      Spicer, Sir Michael

      Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

      Spink, Bob (Castle Point)

      McDonnell, John

      Stanley, rh Sir John

      McIntosh, Miss Anne

      Steen, Anthony

      Maclean, rh David

      Swayne, Desmond

      McLoughlin, Patrick

      Swire, Hugo (E Devon)

      Mahon, Mrs Alice

      Syms, Robert

      Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Taylor, Ian (Esher)

      Maude, rh Francis

      Taylor, John (Solihull)

      Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

      Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

      May, Mrs Theresa

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Mercer, Patrick

      Tonge, Dr. Jenny

      Moss, Malcolm

      Tredinick, David

      Murrison, Dr. Andrew

      Trimble, rh David

      Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

      Norman, Archie

      Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

      Oaten, Mark (Winchester)

      Tyrie, Andrew

      O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

      viggers Peter

      Öpik, Lembit

      Waremg, Robert N.

      Osborne, George (Tattcn)

      Waterson, Nigel

      Page, Richard

      Watkinson, Angela

      Paice, James

      Weir, Michael

      Pickles, Eric

      Whittingdale, John

      Portillo, rh Michael

      Wiggin, Bill

      Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

      Willis, Phil

      Pugh, Dr. John

      Wilshire, David

      Redwood, rh John

      Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

      Rendel, David

      Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)

      Robathan, Andrew

      Robertson, Angus (Moray)

      Wishart, Pete

      Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)

      Wood, Mike (Batley)

      Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

      Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

      Younger-Ross, Richard

      Robinson, Mrs Iris (Strangford)

      Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Rosindell, Andrew

      Mr. Andrew Stunell and

      Ruffley, David

      Mr. Mark Hoban

      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

      DELEGATED LEGISLATION
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With the leave of the House. I shall put together the Questions on the motions relating to delegated legislation.
      Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(6)(Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation),

      EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES
      That the draft European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (Euro-Mediterranean Agreement establishing an Association between the European Communities and their Member States and the Arab Republic of Egypt) Order 2003, which was laid before this House on 28th April, be approved.
      That the draft European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (Agreement establishing an association between the European Community and its Member States and the Republic of Chile) Order 2003, which was laid before this House on 28th April, be approved.

      COMPETITION
      That the draft Enterprise Act 2002 (Anticipated Mergers) Order 2003, which was laid before this House: on 29th April, be approved.
      That the draft Enterprise Act 2002 (Protection of Legitimate Interests) Order 2003, which was laid before this House on 29th April, be approved.

      PRISONS
      That the draft Release of Short-Term Prisoners on Licence (Amendment of Requisite Period) Order 2003, which was laid before this House on 10th April, be approved.—[Mr. Woolas.]
      Question agreed to.

    EUROPEAN COMMUNITY DOCUMENTS
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 119 (9)(European Standing Committees),

    CONTROL OF FOOT AND MOUTH DISEASE
    That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 15831/02, draft Directive on Community measures for the control of foot-and-mouth disease and amending Directive 92/46/EEC; and supports the Government's objective of agreeing measures for the control and eradication of foot-and-mouth disease which allows the European Union's foot-and-mouth disease-free status to be maintained, including the possible use of emergency vaccination from the start of an outbreak.—[Mr. Woolas.]
    Question agreed to.

    A36 (Wellow)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Woolas.]
    10.21 pm
    Sandra Gidley: I welcome the chance to have this Adjournment debate, which I requested because too many people are dying as a result of accidents on the A36 near Wellow. There is a touch of poignancy to the debate. The Minister is probably aware that a dreadful accident occurred on that stretch of road this very day. The multiple car incident appears to have caused at least one death, possibly two, and a number of serious injuries. I am sure that he will join me in expressing our condolences to the victims and their friends and families.
    The picture is bleak. The latest figures that I have show that, from June 1997 to May 2002, 71 personal injury accidents occurred along the length of the A36 from New road to Fighting Cocks farm. At the junction with Whinwhistle road alone there were 21 personal injury accidents in that five-year period. The EuroRAP survey confirmed that that stretch of road has a higher than average accident rate. That is damning enough, but by examining recent history it is clear that the road has a long and chequered past with a long accident record, yet sadly little appears to have been done about it. It might help the Minister if I outline some of that history.
    Most of my knowledge of the route is relatively recent, but a search of the web revealed a meeting of the road and development sub-committee of Hampshire county council on 12 December 1988. The introduction of the report of that meeting referred to
    "increasing anxiety being generated regarding road safety on Trunk Road A36 through West Wellow and Plaitford. Recent tragic fatalities of a schoolgirl and County Council road worker have intensified local concern."
    The same report stated that there had been 31 injury accidents in the preceding three years, of which four were fatal, nine involved serious injuries and 18 slight injuries. If we do a simple comparison with the latest five-year figures, it would appear that there has been an increase in the accident rate. The 1988 report provided further detail and suggested accident remedial works at two junctions—the junction with Whinwhistle road, where eight accidents had been identified, and the junction with Maury's lane. I shall return to the problems at Whinwhistle road. Although I do not have complete details, I am led to believe that today's fatal accident was near the Whinwhistle road junction.
    The report also highlighted problems with driver behaviour, HGVs, overtaking accidents, and the speed limit. Thankfully, some progress has been made to reduce the speed limit, but sadly not enough. In addition, the report mentioned the possibility of a Wellow bypass. There was a recommendation to
    "immediately put in hand the procedures leading to the earliest implementation of a bypass for West Wellow".
    I do not want my case today to be sidetracked by the reemergence of that issue, but I will put the question of a bypass into context later.
    I became more closely involved in the thorny issue of the A36 when a group of residents contacted me to discuss problems with the road surface, which were

    129
    having an adverse affect on their quality of life and the structure of their homes, as well as problems with crossing the road and the possibility of providing a safe crossing. The road was resurfaced last year and there has been some improvement in the surface, but all the other issues remain. The more familiar I became with the stretch of road, the more I realised that something had to be done. It might help the Minister if I set the scene.
    The A36 is a wide single-carriageway trunk road. The village of Wellow is clustered along one side of the road; on the other side is scattered development backing on to the New Forest. A certain amount of development has taken place over the years, which has contributed to increased usage of the junctions placed at intervals along the A36. That, coupled with the year-on-year increase in car usage, makes it easy to see why the accident rate has increased over the years. A roundabout has been installed at one of the junctions, the speed limit has recently been reduced from 50 mph to 40 mph, and signage has been improved, but little else has been done. The problems with the road are exacerbated by its slightly undulating nature. Toward the Plaitford end of the village, large vehicles head into Wellow over the brow of the hill and have to slam on the brakes when they suddenly spot cars emerging from a pub car park or other side road. Put simply, it is a recipe for disaster.
    Let me concentrate for a moment on the problems in the vicinity of Whinwhistle road. That the problems were identified as long ago as 1988 is bad enough, but I recently learned the true extent of the procrastination on the issue. In November 1994, the Whinwhistle road feasibility study was carried out by Hampshire county council; that was rapidly followed by the 1994 Whinwhistle road supplementary report by Hampshire county council; and the May 1995 Whinwhistle road second supplementary report by Hampshire county council. All went quiet for a while, until in July 2001 we had the Whinwhistle road junction improvement study carried out by Atkins on behalf of the Highways Agency. The icing on the cake is a second study by Atkins: the A36 Plaitford to West Wellow speed and safety study, January 2003.
    After nine years, five reports, and thousands of pounds of taxpayers' money—how many, I shudder to guess—there has been no action. That is not good enough, and the reason I asked for this debate is to urge the Minister to use whatever means he has at his disposal to ensure that something happens, and that it happens sooner rather than later.
    There is a small bureaucratic matter that needs to be dealt with first. When I first started to pursue the matter in October 2001, the county surveyor at Hampshire county council told me that he was in negotiation with the Highways Agency about the de-trunking of the road. He hoped that that would happen some time in 2002. I was led to believe that that would be a good thing, because it would be possible to identify a package of de-trunking improvements that could be achieved prior to the road being handed over to the county council.
    By December, the position had changed. In a letter dated December 2001, the county surveyor stated:
    "there is now a little delay in the de-trunking process, largely on account of disagreements with authorities to the west, particularly I think Bath and North East Somerset.
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    As far as we are concerned we have resolved most of the maintenance issues but there are still outstanding matters concerning the safety schemes and speed, particularly in the vicinity of Whinwhistle junction."
    For the good news, he stated that
    "There is a steering group",
    and that it had requested further reports, mainly on issues connected with Somerset, but impinging on some more strategic points, such as the potential effect of the approval of the Dibden bay planning application. He added:
    "The latest advice from the Highways Agency is that they would not expect de-trunking to take place before April 2003."
    A letter from the Highways Agency confirmed that. It also informed me that Bath and North East Somerset council had requested a study commissioned by the Government office for the south-west before it would proceed with the de-trunking. The agency said that there was a possibility that the route could be divided into sections, and that that would be discussed at a later date. To the best of my knowledge, that never happened.
    I come to the part that I find difficult to comprehend. The future of this road in Hampshire and the safety of my constituents is governed by the Government office for the south-west, even though we are in the south-east. I would be grateful if the Minister explained why that is so. Given that all parties appeared keen to go ahead and de-trunk the A36 in my part of Hampshire, why were others allowed to throw a spanner in the works and delay the whole process?
    In January 2002, I received a fax from an irate constituent, who pointed out that there had recently been three multiple car crashes in three weeks, one near School lane, one outside the Red Rover and one opposite Landford new road. In February 2002, I decided to ask a parliamentary question, to ascertain whether I could elicit more information. There was little more information available, but the answer confirmed that de-trunking negotiations were likely to be on hold until early 2003.
    In early 2002, I held a site meeting with some local residents, representatives of the Highways Agency and officers of the county council. I suggested that we walk along a stretch of the A36. The suggestion was greeted with horror. The response was, "No, you can't possibly do that." I should point out that there was a footpath and that we were not walking along the road itself. I was told that the road was far too dangerous to walk alongside it. There was some puzzlement when the residents burst out laughing at that stage. That was not on my behalf but because of the attitude of the officers. The residents felt that the reaction of the representatives of the Highways Agency and of the county council proved their point that the road was dangerous.
    After some negotiation and promises not to sue, conspicuity security jackets were produced and we walked along a stretch of the road. Even though traffic always slows when a number of strange looking people are seen wearing fluorescent yellow jackets, the problem of speeding heavy goods vehicles was all too evident.
    The residents we re requesting a safe crossing point so that they could enjoy the pleasures of the New Forest. The little walk that we had could not have highlighted more the need for such a facility. However, a crossing in isolation in the wrong spot could be dangerous.

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    Although I support the provision of a crossing, it must be part of a package of safety and traffic calming measures.
    A little later the road was closed for resurfacing. That aspect of the road was much improved, but I would like to refer to a fax that I received from the A36 Residents Association, which clearly highlights its frustration. The fax reads:
    "The traffic goes even faster now and no new safety measures have been installed, on this road in a village in the New Forest which is known as death alley. After all the money spent on the rebuild we do not have speed camera warning signs, speed cameras or safety barriers. There are now warning signs by the Red Rover of HGVs bombing along over a blind brow of a hill, where car drivers are exiting the car park after legally consuming some alcohol.
    There are now warnings or protection for people at the Shoe Inn—yes they can still come out of the pub door 18 inches from the road and get killed as happened last year. There is not one safe crossing for children going to school."
    There are many more points, but the fax goes on to claim that the improved road means that the traffic is travelling faster and the danger of a major incident is now greater. I am sure that the writer of that letter is not happy to have been proved correct.
    I was also deeply frustrated, as there seemed little that I could do until the de-trunking issue was sorted out and various studies were completed. In November, I received a letter to say that the report was being finalised but that it highlighted a speed problem at both ends of West Wellow. I am not quite sure how much the report cost, but in the words of John Cleese it does seem to be "stating the bleeding obvious."
    I was also assured that Atkins was committed to improving road safety and was continuing to seek longterm solutions. I certainly hope that there is not longterm implementation.
    Sadly, despite the site meeting and despite numerous letters expressing interest, I have still not seen a copy of the report, despite a promise to let me do so. I understand that possibly it is still in draft form.
    So where do we go from here, and why have I involved the Minister? I am aware that there are some schemes in preparation, such as the extension of the 40 mph speed limit and a puffin crossing at Canada roundabout. Hampshire county council is keen to install speed cameras at Whinwhistle road junction. This is a welcome, if long overdue, move, and I hope that the Minister can assure me that the scheme can proceed without further delay.
    I am also aware that a scheme is being developed to provide a three-arm roundabout at Whinwhistle road. The observed accident rate at this junction is 7.4 recorded personal injury accidents a year, compared with the national average of 0.7. This scheme is due to take place in 2005–06, subject to the purchase of a suitable piece of land. I urge the Minister to use every means at his disposal to ensure that this happens sooner rather than later. Put simply, another two years is far too long.
    I ask the Minister to take a look at the area. Plans for a bypass were dropped in the mid-1990s, although for a number of years the idea had a great deal of support. But
    132
    no one could agree on the most suitable route and the idea seemed to be quietly shelved. Unfortunately, the shelving of the scheme did not coincide with a review of the safety of the road. I am not calling for a resurrection of the bypass plan, but if the accident record on such a busy road continues to rise, we will have to think again.
    In the short term, various steps need to be taken. As a matter of urgency, a decision must be made on the de-trunking. If we are still at the mercy of the Government office for the south-west, I urge the Minister to go ahead with a decision for that stretch of road now. There is no reason why Hampshire should be subject to the whims of another county and another Government region. If the decision is definitely to go ahead, negotiations must be a priority, and a package of safety measures should form part of a de-trunking agreement. Residents of Wellow and users of the A36 do not need yet another survey. They do not need further procrastination. They need the road to be made safer, and they need that to be done as soon as is humanly—nay, superhumanly—possible, if we are to avoid further fatalities such as we have suffered this very day.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. Before I call the Minister, may I say to the hon. Lady that the quotation that she used was inappropriate and should not have been used? I hope she will bear that in mind for a future occasion.
    10.36 pm
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. David Jamieson): I congratulate the hon. Member for Romsey (Sandra Gidley) on securing the debate. I know that she has taken a special interest in road safety on the Wellow section of the A36 and has corresponded regularly with the Department and discussed at first hand a number of safety issues with the Highways Agency and Hampshire county council officials. I was deeply saddened to learn of the deaths and serious injuries on the A36 this afternoon.
    Our thoughts tonight must be with the families who have lost their loved ones, and with those who are injured. My latest information is that two have been killed, two others have life-threatening injuries and there are others with other injuries. That makes the debate even more poignant, as the hon. Lady said, but I am truly sorry that we must conduct it against the backdrop of such an appalling tragedy as happened today.
    Although this country has a good road safety record compared with that of other countries, today's terrible tragedy shows that we cannot afford to be complacent. Such accidents make the Government all the more determined to improve our record. In the 10-year transport plan, we made a commitment to reduce deaths and serious injuries by 40 per cent. by 2010 compared with the average for 1994 to 1998, and there is also a 50 per cent. target for cutting child deaths and serious injuries. That is why we are putting the resources in place to improve safety. According to the latest information, we are well on the way to meeting those targets, but I am the first to accept that we have more to do and that there are still many roads on which the death rate is too high.
    I should explain the current status of the A36, as it sets the background for how the road is currently operated by the Highways Agency. In December 2000 the

    133
    decision was taken to confirm the A36 Bath to Southampton trunk road as non-core. The Highways Agency is responsible for operating the road, maintaining it in good condition and carrying out any safety improvements to the route. Promotion of other improvements for reasons of environment, accessibility, economy and integration is the responsibility of local transport authorities. In the Wellow and Plaitford locality, Hampshire and Wiltshire county councils are the responsible authorities. Our aim is to transfer the responsibility for the road to the local transport authorities. If I have time, I shall say a little more about that later.
    I well understand the hon. Lady's concerns about safety on the A36 in her constituency. In the five-year period from June 1997 to May 2002 there have been 71 personal injury accidents. Three were fatal—that does not include today's appalling tragedy—nine were serious and 59 were slight. The accidents took place along the 4 km stretch of the A36 between New road in Plaitford and Fighting Cocks farm, to the south-west of West Wellow.
    Those figures are approximately 20 per cent. higher than the national average for roads of this type. I hope that what I say today will demonstrate that we have not been idle in assessing the problem and working up and implementing appropriate solutions.
    As the hon. Lady pointed out, there were plans for a bypass of West Wellow, but the proposal was withdrawn from the trunk road programme in 1994. Following that decision, a number of studies were commissioned along the route. They include a number of studies carried out by Hampshire county council, when it managed the road on behalf of the Highways Agency. The council looked at the 5.6 km length of the A36 between the Ower roundabout at the M27 and the Wiltshire-Hampshire border and, in particular, safety problems at the junction of the A36 and Whinwhistle road.
    In 1999, WS Atkins became the managing agent for the Highways Agency for the A36. WS Atkins has carried out studies in the locality, including the Whinwhistle road junction improvement study in July 2001. A range of improvement options were identified and appraised in that study and a roundabout was considered the best long-term solution for improving the junction. More recently, the A36 Plaitford to West Wellow speed and safety study was initiated, and it is now substantially complete, although comments from Hampshire county council are still awaited. The study recommendations include reduction of the speed limit from Wellow to New road in Plaitford and provision of a crossing at the Canada Common roundabout.
    Those studies have helped to inform the decisions on what works are required to tackle the problems identified. In the period between 2001 and 2003, the following works have been carried out in the Wellow area. In February 2002, the existing 40 mph speed limit area was extended by slightly less than 1.5 km to take in the junctions of School road and Whinwhistle road. Additional appropriate signing was erected and red surfacing was laid on the carriageway to emphasise the difficult nature of that section of the road. That work was carried out in recognition of the undulating nature of this section of the route and the resulting poor visibility, which, in combination with a number of
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    private accesses and two junctions, contributed to the accident record. The majority of collisions at the Whinwhistle road junction were nose-to-tail shunt collisions, which suggests that speed on the A36 was a contributory factor. We have also moved the advance direction signs on the approaches to Whinwhistle road to give better warning of the junction ahead and a new direction sign has been erected opposite the junction.
    The Wellow village name signs have been re-erected on the approaches to the village. The signs reinforce the village ambiance to drivers approaching Wellow. A major maintenance scheme was undertaken in April 2002 to improve the road surface between Plaitford and the Canada Common roundabout. I am sure that the hon. Lady will remember those works, as the A36 was closed for about four weeks to allow them to be carried out. A new footway was also provided as part of the scheme between the Shoe inn and Purley way in Plaitford. The new footpath will improve safety for pedestrians in the area, especially for those who are leaving the pub in the evening, although I am sure that her constituents are totally sober when they do so.
    For 2003–04, we are planning to implement two schemes. The first will provide a puffin crossing at the eastern arm of the Canada Common roundabout to improve accessibility in that area of the village. The second will reduce the speed limit of 50 mph to 40 mph from Wellow through Plaitford to New road. The successful implementation of those schemes this year is subject to agreement with the police and local authorities, but I hope that there will be no unexpected delays. We shall also carry out a review of crossing points throughout Plaitford and West Wellow to identify locations where dropped kerbs and refuges can be provided to encourage safe movement through the villages. We also consider that those measures will help to change the character of the road to emphasise that people are crossing the road at those points and that drivers should therefore reduce their speeds.
    The Highways Agency is part of the Hampshire safety camera partnership and is working with its partners to provide two cameras at Whinwhistle road junction. We consider that cameras in that location will reduce speeds and therefore the numbers of nose-to-tail shunt collisions at the junction, which we believe are the main indicator of why the collisions are occurring. They mainly involve vehicles trying to turn right into Whinwhistle road and other vehicles approaching from behind or moving towards them too quickly.
    Other works planned for 2003 in the Wellow area include improvements to the bus stop at Whinwhistle road to provide raised kerbs, a new shelter and an extended footway. We will also add further 40 mph signs and surface treatment on the carriageway to further encourage drivers to reduce their speed.
    I have already referred to the Whinwhistle road junction improvement study of July 2001, which recommended a roundabout at Whinwhistle road. That will reduce traffic speeds and right-turn accidents and act as a gateway to the village from the south-east, thereby improving safety and accessibility in the area. We plan to carry out the scheme in the year 2005–06, but that is subject to the successful purchase of the land required and the availability of funding. Let me assure the hon. Lady that I am aware that the location is in a sensitive landscape area adjoining the New Forest, and

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    that will be a major consideration in the design of the scheme. Today, however, in her mind and in the minds of her constituents, the main issue at that junction must be that of safety.
    As was mentioned earlier, in the longer term responsibility for the A36 will be transferred to the local transport authorities when the road is de-trunked. Therefore, safety on the A36 in the Plaitford and Wellow area will become matters for Hampshire and Wiltshire county councils. The decision to de-trunk the A36 was reaffirmed by the Secretary of State in December 2000. However, as the hon Lady pointed out, the south-west regional assembly—the regional planning body for the south-west—continued to have outstanding concerns about aspects of de-trunking the road further north of this section of the A36. I undertake to look at those issues to determine whether the delays can be reduced. I take the hon. Lady's point when she asks why one region should be affected by the deliberations of another, although if the whole road is to be de-trunked I am sure that she appreciates that it has to be done as one. We shall consider whether any of the problems can be overcome to get the de-trunking moving.
    Following preliminary discussions with representatives from local transport authorities along the corridor, the Highways Agency and English Heritage, the Government office for the south-west
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    commissioned a study entitled "The Bristol/Bath to South Coast Study" to supplement existing information derived from an earlier study. The study commenced in July 2002 and is likely to report in July 2003. Its overall aim is not to consider further whether the route should be de-trunked, but to recommend an appropriate strategy to manage the north-west to south-east axis transport corridor between Bristol and Bath and the south coast. In particular, it also aims to develop an integrated transport strategy to address the issues relating to through traffic in the corridor of the historic city of Bath. The findings of the study are to be reported to the south-west regional assembly to allow it to consider what changes it might wish to recommend to the south-west regional transport strategy.
    I am grateful for the opportunity to explain our plans and to listen and respond to some of the concerns expressed by the hon. Lady about improving safety along the A36 in Wellow, both in the short and longer term. I hope that I have at least been able to demonstrate our commitment to safety on the road in general and in the Wellow area in particular. The terrible tragedy on this stretch of road this afternoon, in which people were killed and seriously injured, with all the misery that that causes, spurs us on in Government to redouble our efforts in progressing the improvements and thereby improving road safety in the area.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Adjourned accordingly at twelve minutes to Eleven o'clock.