HC Deb 23 January 2003 vol 398 cc523-37

Amendments proposed: No.8, in page 10, line 33 [Clause 19], leave out 'The Secretary of State may' and insert 'Not later than the end of the period of two years beginning with the day on which the referendum was held the Secretary of State must'. No.9, in page 10, line 35 [Clause 19], leave out 'Such a direction may' and insert 'A direction under subsection (2) must'. No.10, in page 10, line 36 [Clause 19], after 'to' insert 'such of the following matters as the Secretary of State thinks appropriate'. No.11, in page 11, line 6 [Clause 19], leave out 'or revoked'.—[Mr. Raynsfordi.]

Question put, That the amendments be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 323, Noes 118.

Division No. 64] [5:24 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Adams, Irene (Paisley N) Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Ainger, Nick Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE) Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Alexander, Douglas
Allan, Richard Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E) Clelland, David
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Atherton, Ms Candy Coaker, Vernon
Atkins, Charlotte Cohen, Harry
Austin, John Coleman, Iain
Baird, Vera Colman, Tony
Barnes, Harry Connarty, Michael
Barron, rh Kevin Cooper, Yvette
Battle, John Corston, Jean
Bayley, Hugh Cotter Brian
Beard, Nigel Cousins, Jim
Begg, Miss Anne Cranston, hon. Ross
Bell, Stuart Cruddas, Jon
Benn, Hilary Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Bennett, Andrew Cryer John (Hornchurcn)
Best, Harold Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Blackman, Liz Edward (Kingston)
Borrow, David Davey, Edward (Brisol W)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) David Wayne
Bradshaw, Ben Davidson, Ian
Brennan, Kevin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Brown, Russell (Dumfries) Dhanda, Parmjit
Browne, Desmond Dismore, Andrew
Bryant, Chris Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Buck, Ms Karen Dobsoa rh Frank
Burden, Richard Donohoe, Brian H.
Burgon, Colin Doran, Frank
Burnett, John Doughty, Sue
Burnham, Andy Dowd' Jim (Lewisham W)
Burstow, Paul Drew David (Stroud)
Byers, rh Stephen Drown, Ms Julia
Cable, Dr. Vincent Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Cairns, David Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Calton, Mrs Patsy Edwards, Huw
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth) Efford, Clive
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) Ellman, Mrs Louise
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Caplin, Ivor Etherington, Bill
Casale, Roger Farrelly, Paul
Caton, Martin Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg) Fisher, Mark
Challen, Colin Fitzpatrick, Jim
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) Follett, Barbara
Chaytor, David Foster, rh Derek
Clapham, Michael Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye) Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Foulkes, rh George Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Francis, Dr. Hywel Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Galloway, George Linton, Martin
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S) Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Gardiner, Barry Llwyd, Elfyn
George, Andrew (St. Ives) Love, Andrew
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S) Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Gerrard, Neil McAvoy, Thomas
Gibson, Dr. Ian McCabe, Stephen
Gidley, Sandra McCafferty, Chris
Gilroy, Linda McCartney, rh Ian
Godsiff, Roger McDonagh, Siobhain
Green, Matthew (Ludlow) McDonnell, John
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) MacDougall, John
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) McGuire, Mrs Anne
Grogan, John McIsaac, Shona
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) McKechin, Ann
Hamilton, David (Midlothian) McKenna, Rosemary
Hancock, Mike Mackinlay, Andrew
Harman, rh Ms Harriet McNamara, Kevin
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon) McNulty, Tony
Mactaggart, Fiona
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart) McWalter, Tony
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney) McWilliam, John
Mallaber, Judy
Heath, David Mandelson, rh Peter
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Hendrick, Mark Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Hepburn, Stephen Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Heppell, John
Heyes, David Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Hill, Keith (Streatham) Martlew, Eric
Hinchliffe, David Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Hodge, Margaret Merron, Gillian
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall) Michael, rh Alun
Holmes, Paul Miller, Andrew
Hope, Phil (Corby) Moffatt, Laura
Hopkins, Kelvin Moore, Michael
Howells, Dr. Kim Moran, Margaret
Hoyle, Lindsay Morgan, Julie
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) Morris, rh Estelle
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N) Mullin, Chris
Hurst, Alan (Braintree) Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Hutton, rh John Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Iddon, Dr. Brian Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)
Illsley, Eric Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
Irranca-Davies, Huw O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate) O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough) O'Neill, Martin
Jenkins, Brian Öpik, Lembit
Johnson, Alan (Hull W) Organ, Diana
Jones, Helen (Warrington N) Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) Owen, Albert
Jones, Kevan (N Durham) Palmer, Dr. Nick
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak) Perham, Linda
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S) Picking, Anne
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W) Pickthall, Colin
Kaufman, rh Gerald Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Keen, Alan (Feltham) Plaskitt, James
Keen, Ann (Brentford) Pollard, Kerry
Keetch, Paul Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W) Pound, Stephen
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness) Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Kidney, David Prosser, Gwyn
Kilfoyle, Peter Purchase, Ken
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow) Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Knight, Jim (S Dorset) Quinn, Lawrie
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Lamb, Norman Raynsford, rh Nick
Laws, David (Yeovil) Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Laxton, Bob (Derby N) Rendel, David
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland) Sutcliffe, Gerry
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW) Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell) Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Ruddock, Joan Thurso, John
Russell, Bob (Colchester) Timms, Stephen
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester) Tipping, Paddy
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N) Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Salter, Martin Trickett, Jon
Sarwar, Mohammad Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Savidge, Malcolm Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Shaw, Jonathan Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Sheerman, Barry Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Sheridan, Jim Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Shipley, Ms Debra Vis, Dr. Rudi
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington) Walley, Ms Joan
Singh, Marsha Ward, Claire
Skinner, Dennis Wareing, Robert N.
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury) Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
Watts, David
Smith, John (Glamorgan) White, Brian
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine) Williams, Betty (Conwy)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Soley, Clive Willis, Phil
Southworth, Helen Wills, Michael
Spellar, rh John Wood, Mike (Batley)
Squire, Rachel Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry Wright, David (Telford)
Stevenson, George Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles) Wyatt, Derek
Stinchcombe, Paul Younger-Ross, Richard
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Stringer, Graham Tellers for the Ayes:
Stuart, Ms Gisela Mr. Fraser Kemp and
Stunell, Andrew Mr. Phil Woolas
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey) Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Amess, David
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E) Djanogly, Jonathan
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Bacon, Richard Evans, Nigel
Baldry, Tony Fabricant, Michael
Barker, Gregory Fallon, Michael
Baron, John (Billericay) Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul Flook, Adrian
Blunt, Crispin Forth, rh Eric
Boswell, Tim Francois, Mark,
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W) Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Bottomley, rh Virginia (Sw Surrey) Garnier, Edward
Gillian, Mrs Cheryl
Brady, Graham Goodman, Paul
Brazier, Julian Gray, James (N Wilts)
Brazier, Julian Grayling, Chris
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon Green Damian (Ashford)
Burns, Simon Greenway, John
Burnside, David Grieve, Dominic
Burt, Alistair Hammond, Philip
Cameron, David Hawkins, Nick
Cash, William Heald Oliver
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet) Hendry, Charles
Hermon, Lady
Chope, Christopher Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hogg, rh Douglas
Collins, Tim Horam, John (Orpington)
Conway, Derek Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Cormack, Sir Patrick Hunter, Andrew
Cran, James (Beverley) Jenkin, Bernard
Kirkbride, Miss Julie Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor Roe, Mrs Marion
Lait, Mrs Jacqui Ruffley, David
Lansley, Andrew Sayeed, Jonathan
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E) Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Liddell-Grainger, Ian Shepherd, Richard
Lidington, David Simmonds, Mark
Lillley, rh Peter Soames, Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Loughton, Tim Spink Bob (Castle Point)
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs) Spring, Richard
McIntosh, Miss Anne Stanley rh Sir John
Mackay, rh Andrew Streeter, Gary
McLoughlin, Patrick Swayne, Desmond
Malins, Humfrey Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Maples, John Syms, Robert
May, Mrs Theresa Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield) Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Moss, Malcolm Tredinnick, David
Murrison Dr Andrew Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Norman, Archie Tyrie, Andrew
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury) Viggers, Peter
Ottaway, Richard Walter, Robert
Ottaway Richard Whittingdale, John
Page, Richard Wilkinson, John
Paice, James Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric Young, rh Sir George
Portillo, rh Michael
Prisk, Mark (Hertford) Tellers for the Noes:
Redwood, rh John Mr. Laurence Robertson and
Robathan, Andrew Angela Watkinson

Question accordingly agreed to.

Order for Third Reading read.

5.36 pm
Mr. Raynsford

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

We have had full and extensive debates on the Bill. We debated it on Second Reading and our extensive debates in Committee were widely recognised as being thorough and good tempered. Those debates were followed by a full day's consideration in the House on the first four clauses and now by the debates on Report.

The Bill is in good shape, and it is right that we should now commend it to the other House, where I hope that it will receive a fair and impartial hearing on all sides. I also hope that Lord Strathclyde's sadly unhelpful comments, to which I referred in my speech on the last group of amendments, will not be indicative of the approach that the official Opposition will adopt in considering the Bill in the other place.

The Bill takes forward the Government's manifesto commitment to provide for elected regional assemblies where the people in the regions want them.

Mr. George Howarth

My right hon. Friend is aware that I am opposed to the Bill in principle and that, as things stand, I would be inclined to vote against it on Third Reading. However, he is also aware that, if it were possible to develop new proposals for city-wide government in certain conurbations, I might look more favourably on the Bill. Can he give me any reason for hope about that?

Mr. Raynsford

I know that my hon. Friend has reservations about the regional agenda, but the Government are committed to strengthening city government and ensureing that our big cities and towns have effective representation. We have already considered a range of constitutional changes, cluding directly electing mayors, and we will continue constructively to explore ways in which we can reinforce the ability of our cities and towns to achieve effective city government. I hope that my hon. Friend will want to engage in a constructive discussion about such issues and that he will feel able not to vote against the Bill tonight.

The principle on which the Bill is based is choice, exercised democratically by the people through referendums in each of the English regions. The Bill is at the heart of our programme to modernise our constitution, decentralise power and deliver better public services.

It is a crucial step towards establishing a democratic voice for the English regions—a voice that has been denied them for too long. We want to give the people of our regions the right to choose; the ability to decide what is best for them; a distinct political voice; a regional level of democracy; and, above all, greater control over regional issues that matter, such as economic development and regeneration, planning, housing, transport, health, culture and the environment. This is an important and exciting Bill and I commend it to the House.

5.40 pm
Mr. Hammond

Although I do not wish in any way to detract from the Minister's achievement in getting this Bill through, he has certainly not won all the arguments, including some with Members on his side of the House. He has had a pretty thankless task in piloting the Deputy Prime Minister's pet project through its parliamentary stages. The Bill is an ill-thought-out measure. It seems rushed and fatally flawed even to some of those who favour regional devolution on the Government's model: first, because it insists on using the inappropriate and irrelevant Government offices for the regions' boundaries to define the regions; and secondly, because it couples the issue of elected regional assemblies with the compulsory unitarisation of local government—on which, to be fair, Liberal Democrat Members have focused throughout the debate.

Elected regional assemblies will create an extra tier of government in the unitary areas and the loss of county councils in most of the shire district areas. That is a high price to pay for assemblies that are based on regions with which, in most cases, people will have little or no natural affinity. The regional assemblies will bring additional burdens of cost—extra costs on council tax payers, extra costs on business in the form of higher rates, and extra costs through the bureaucracy involved in paying for the prestige buildings, salaries and cars that will be demanded.

What powers will the assemblies have in exchange for all those extra costs? Of course, we do not know, because we have not seen a Bill that sets out their powers, and we have learned precious little from the White Paper and ministerial statements. They will have political control of the regional development agencies, but no additional money. They will have influence over central Government decisions and will be able to put forward strategic plans, but always within the context of a national framework and subject to the approval of the Government offices for the regions, which will be standing looking over their shoulders. They will have the planning functions that they have sucked up from county councils, which means that decision making will be more remote from, not closer to, local communities.

Notwithstanding our disagreement with the principles behind the Bill, we proposed constructive solutions throughout its passage, but every one was rejected. Today, the Government have set their face against greater transparency by opposing a new clause that would have encouraged voters to understand the implications for local Government in their region of voting yes in a referendum. They have set their face against a process that would have allowed a building from the bottom up of regions that would have some meaning for the people who live in them—regions that people could respect and even come to love, rather than the irrelevant regions that the Government have chosen to run with. They have set their face against a referendum of all the people of England to test their appetite for elected regional assemblies and the local government reform that the Government insist must go with it.

The Minister has got his Bill through this House, albeit without a proper debate, especially on the first four clauses, which are critical to the Bill, but were very time-limited in Committee. The Deputy Prime Minister has seen his pet project come to legislative fruition, but the Government cannot rely on procedure to avoid the real debate that will take place when the Bill reaches the other place. Because of the Government's approach—the rush, the refusal to compromise, the unwillingness to listen to the people and to create regions that have meaning and might stand a chance of winning the allegiance and affection of their inhabitants—they do not have a lasting and durable solution to the challenge of creating a model for decentralisation in England.

5.44 pm
Jim Knight

I am a keen supporter of the Bill. I was pleased to sit on the Standing Committee that considered it, and I enjoyed the experience. The Bill is the precursor to regional government, which I very much support for four principal reasons.

First, it will increase the accountability of the many regional bodies—quangos—particularly the regional development agencies, which have done some useful work in the south-west, although I have concerns about the boards being accountable through the Secretary of State but not directly accountable to us in our region.

Secondly, regional government will provide a strategic view. The Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill is currently going through Parliament, and the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) alluded to the fact that regional assemblies would exercise some planning powers under it. I support that, as it is appropriate to have a strategic approach within which sub-regional groups may mirror counties in many cases and deny what the hon. Gentleman said about the sucking-up of powers. It will certainly join up a lot of thinking. My area is lucky enough to have world heritage status for our coast, which cuts across county boundaries. I look forward to a more strategic approach at a regional level to maximise the benefit of that status.

Mrs. Ellman

Does my hon. Friend agree that any suggestion that boundaries should be drawn around cities would mean the isolation of areas that are not within those boundaries, particularly rural areas, and would not deal with vital regional issues in relation to economic development, population movement and the work of the regional development agencies?

Jim Knight

I am interested by my hon. Friend's intervention, but I have no desire to get involved with the politics of the north-west in answering it. There are times when there is a clear relationship between a core and a periphery. That happens at a national and a regional level, and it can happen between a market town and its periphery. That may give some support to her without necessarily offending some of my other hon. Friends.

The third reason why I support regional government is to provide a regional voice. Clearly, the north-east needs that voice. Even the south-west, however, with its rich diversity, has common strands of economic importance. We rely on agriculture, the defence industry and the tourism industry across the seven counties of the south-west. A clearer regional voice and set of thinking would be welcome.

Mr. Andrew Turner

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that my constituency has many similarities with his and with much of the west country? Will he comment on the Department for Transport's recent airports map, which put my constituency off the coast of his constituency rather than off the coast of the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne)?

Jim Knight

I have no desire to comment on a map that I have not seen. I enjoy viewing the Isle of Wight from my constituency when I am in Swanage, but I accept that, on the boundaries of regions, there are some who would like to be either side. I am sure that parts of Dorset would welcome the Isle of Wight coming home to us, along with its geology. I am content that we should proceed on the basis of the boundaries that we currently have for our regions, because that means that we can have regional government all the more quickly. In addition, the south-west has some common problems, such as our transport infrastructure and a lack of affordable housing, which, equally, a regional government could address.

Finally, we need to resolve what is called the West Lothian question. We have seen the start of devolution in London with the Greater London Authority. We need to continue the process by developing regional government for England. I support the Bill and the fact that it is not imposing regional government on any region, as the electorate will be able to vote for it. It is not an addition of Government in most cases, and certainly not in the south-west, where we can see the unification of local authorities and strong parish councils, as I have argued throughout this debate.

I want to allow other Members to speak, as many want to do so in the limited amount of time available. I urge hon. Members to support the Bill, and I look forward to future legislation to finish off the job of the White Paper and resolve that important West Lothian question.

5.49 pm
Mr. Edward Davey

There is a strong case for elected regional assemblies. The Liberal Democrats have advocated regional devolution for many decades, and it is a real pleasure to see that the Government are, at long last, beginning to take on that agenda.

One argument for regional assemblies is based on the democratisation of the regional government that already exists. The hon. Member for South Dorset (Jim Knight) has made some of the arguments for democratising the quango state that was bequeathed to Britain particularly by the previous Conservative Government. The value of democratising the regional government that exists is that we could, I hope, push for better value for money. Many of these bureaucracies have overlapping responsibilities, vast offices, many chief executives and so on. Much of that can be rationalised in the new regional assembly process. We look forward to that happening and we encourage the Government to go further than they have.

There are three major problems with the Bill. I touched on the first earlier today. The fact that the local government review is coupled with the regional referendums is a big mistake, and the Government will rue the day that they coupled the two. The second major problem relates to the fact that the Government have not allowed for a review of the regional boundaries. In responding to my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Andrew George), the Minister said that there might be reviews of regional boundaries in due course. I hope that that will be sooner rather than later, and it will have to take place before there are referendums in regions outside the north-east, the north-west, Yorkshire and Humber.

The third major problem with the Bill is that it will allow referendums to go ahead without the electors knowing what powers the regional assemblies that they are being asked to vote for would have. That is a mistake. The Minister has cited the precedents in Scotland and Wales, but the Welsh vote was almost lost. One of the arguments used against the creation of the Welsh Assembly was that its powers were not set out clearly enough.

Llew Smith (Blaenau Gwent)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Davey

I will not give way, because time is tight. It would have made much more sense if the Government had reassured us that they intended to introduce legislation, even in draft form, before the first referendum on a regional assembly took place.

On Third Reading, we have to ask whether the glass is half full or half empty. Our view is that it is important that the cause of regional devolution gets going and that we start a process that has been long awaited. Despite the many flaws in the Bill, we will view the glass as half full and we will vote for its Third Reading. Although the Minister was right to draw attention to the words of Lord Strathclyde last night and to say they were not appropriate, I hope that he will admit that it is the duty of the other place to scrutinise legislation.

Mr. Raynsford

Not to stop it.

Mr. Davey

Not to stop it—the Minister makes a valid point. I hope that noble Lords on all sides will work to amend the Bill in the way that some of us tried to do in Committee.

Andrew George

I want to put on the record that, although I agree with everything that my hon. Friend has said, I am afraid that I have reached a different conclusion. I believe that the glass is half empty. I agree with his analysis and will not try to stop the Bill, but I will not vote for it. I will abstain and I am sorry about that, but much more work needs to be done before it is palatable to us.

Mr. Davey

I certainly understand why my hon. Friend has come to that conclusion. Many of us have had to think very hard about whether we would vote for the Bill because of the many problems in it. I understand why he wishes to take that action, but I urge my other hon. Friends to give the Bill its Third Reading, so that we can move on with regional devolution. The Bill will then move to another place where I hope it will be amended properly.

5.54 pm
Joyce Quin (Gateshead, East and Washington, West)

I warmly welcome the Bill and I am glad that it is completing its proceedings in the Commons.

I wish to make two points. First, in parallel with the Bill and complementary to it, the Government are undertaking a soundings exercise to try to find out how keen people in the regions are on holding referendums.

I urge my right hon. Friend and his ministerial colleagues across the Government to give publicity to that. Many other issues understandably dominate the news, but I am keen that people in the regions understand and appreciate what is on offer.

My second point is that devolution has been a success so far, although it has thrown up interesting variations in policy, including enlightened approaches to nursing care, concessions for elderly travel and the establishment of children's commissioners. Although I encourage the Government to devolve functions to the regions of England, I also encourage them to consider some of those enlightened policies for England as a whole because many of them would be of great benefit.

Having said that, I wish the Bill every success in its passage through the other place. I certainly hope that it does not attempt to block it. The Bill is a manifesto commitment and it would be constitutionally unacceptable for it to do so. I wish the Bill every success and hope that regional assemblies will be successfully established, especially in my region of the north-east.

5.55 pm
Mr. Streeter

The Bill is destined to join a growing list of half-baked and ill-thought-out new Labour legislation that has been put on the statute book since 1997. It introduces regional government on a piecemeal dyslexic basis, which will produce an asymmetric and unsustainable constitutional settlement for this great country. It introduces a system of taking soundings on the level of interest in a region which is so vague as to be utterly meaningless. The Deputy Prime Minister may as well open a window in Whitehall and stick his finger in the wind.

The Bill introduces referendums with no thresholds, so even a tiny number of anorak-clad voters can effect constitutional change with no recall and no recourse if mistakes are made. It does not define the functions, powers and responsibilities of the new elected assemblies, and will be a recipe for confusion. It fails to give sufficient information to enable electors to make an informed decision. The Bill locks itself into regions that make no sense whatsoever—

Mr. Hilton Dawson (Lancaster and Wyre)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Streeter

No, there is no time. The hon. Gentleman has just entered the Chamber; I have been here all day.

The Bill locks itself into regions that do not attract local affinity or a sense of identity. How can it be right that Tewkesbury is in the south-west region when it is closer to Scotland than it is to Penzance?

The Bill ushers in a massive and unnecessary upheaval of local government and will almost certainly spell the death knell to historic county boroughs over vast swathes of the country. It will take decisions away from local people and give them to elected regional assemblies, which will be accountable to no one. It is a clumsy, inchoate and incoherent measure. It will not stand the test of time and we should oppose it.

5.57 pm
Mrs. Ellman

I warmly welcome the Bill. It is a vital further step on the road to regional devolution advanced by the Government. Its purpose is to bring more power to the people in the regions, to narrow economic disparities and to stop the increasing flow of populations from the poorer north to the overheated south and south-east. It gives the voice of legitimacy to elected people in the regions to influence Government and European policy to benefit their economic development. It brings accountability to those decisions that are taken on a regional level and brings more focus to them.

The Bill is of great importance to the country. It is of particular importance to the north-west and will be warmly welcomed in my constituency of Liverpool, Riverside. I look forward to it being put into practice and receiving support in the other place. It is a vital measure and I hope that it receives the full support of the House.

5.58 pm
Mr. Andrew Turner

As my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Devon (Mr. Streeter) said, this Bill is deeply defective—and for two reasons. First, however, I should like to deal with the point that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs. Ellman) has just made about the drift from north to south. It is extraordinary that she can criticise such a drift while at the same time supporting her Deputy Prime Minister's proposals to build houses all over the south of England to encourage people to drift from the north to the south. I find that incoherent.

The first reason why the Bill is unacceptable is that the boundaries of the regions do not match people's aspirations. I say that as someone who represents a constituency right on the edge of the south-east region—as defined by the Government—which has far less in common with Ramsgate and Milton Keynes than with Bournemouth and Portland.

The second reason is the West Lothian question. We must resolve the problem that issues that matter to Members who represent English constituencies, or in future to those who represent constituencies without a regional assembly, can be voted on by those—

It being Six o'clock, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Orders [29 October 2002 and 26 November 2002 and this day].

The House divided: Ayes 331, Noes 123.

Division No. 65] [6:00 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane Burnett, John
Adams, Irene (Paisley N) Burnham, Andy
Ainger, Nick Byers, rh Stephen
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE) Cable, Dr. Vincent
Alexander, Douglas Cairns, David
Allan, Richard Calton, Mrs Patsy
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E) Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Atherton, Ms Candy Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Atkins, Charlotte Caplin, Ivor
Austin, John Casale, Roger
Baird, Vera Caton, Martin
Banks, Tony Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Barnes, Harry Challen, Colin
Barron, rh Kevin Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Battle, John Chaytor, David
Bayley, Hugh Clapham, Michael
Beard, Nigel Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Begg, Miss Anne Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Benn, Hilary Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)
Bennett, Andrew Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Best, Harold
Blackman, Liz Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Blears, Ms Hazel Clelland, David
Borrow, David Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) Coaker, Vernon
Bradshaw, Ben Coffey, Ms Ann
Brake, Tom (Carshalton) Cohen, Harry
Brennan, Kevin Coleman, Iain
Brooke, Mrs Annette L. Colman, Tony
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend) Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Yvette
Browne, Desmond Corston, Jean
Bryant, Chris Cotter, Brian
Buck, Ms Karen Cousins, Jim
Burden, Richard Cranston, hon. Ross
Burgon, Colin Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley) Hope, Phil (Corby)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch) Hopkins, Kelvin
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S) Howells, Dr. Kim
Darling, rh Alistair Hoyle, Lindsay
Davey, Edward (Kingston) Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W) Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
David, Wayne Hutton, rh John
Davidson, Ian Iddon, Dr. Brian
Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H) Illsley, Eric
Dawson, Hilton Irranca-Davies, Huw
Dean, Mrs Janet Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dismore, Andrew Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood) Jenkins, Brian
Dobson, rh Frank Johnson, Alan (Hull W)
Donohoe, Brian H. Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Doran, Frank Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Doughty, Sue Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W) Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Drew, David (Stroud) Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Drown, Ms Julia Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey) Kaufman, rh Gerald
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston) Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Edwards, Huw Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Efford, Clive Keetch, Paul
Ellman, Mrs Louise Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E) Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)
Etherington, Bill
Farrelly, Paul Kidney, David
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead) King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Flint, Caroline Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Follett, Barbara Lamb, Norman
Foster, rh Derek Laws, David (Yeovil)
Foster, Don (Bath) Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Foster, Michael (Worcester) Lazarowicz, Mark
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye) Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Foulkes, rh George Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Francis, Dr. Hywel Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S) Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Gardiner, Barry Linton, Martin
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S) Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Gerrard, Neil Llwyd, Elfyn
Gibson, Dr. Ian Love, Andrew
Gidley, Sandra Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Gilroy, Linda McAvoy, Thomas
Godsiff, Roger McCabe, Stephen
Goggins, Paul McCafferty, Chris
Green, Matthew (Ludlow) McCartney, rh Ian
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) McDonagh, Siobhain
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) McDonnell, John
Grogan, John MacDougall, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) McGuire, Mrs Anne
Hall, Patrick (Bedford) McIsaac, Shona
Hamilton, David (Midlothian) McKechin, Ann
Hancock, Mike McKenna, Rosemary
Harman, rh Ms Harriet Mackinlay, Andrew
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon) McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart) Mactaggart, Fiona
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney) McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Heath, David Mallaber, Judy
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) Mandelson, rh Peter
Hendrick, Mark Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Hepburn, Stephen Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Heppell, John Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Heyes, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham) Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Hinchliffe, David Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Hodge, Margaret Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall) Merron, Gillian
Holmes, Paul Michael, rh Alun
Hoon, rh Geoffrey Milburn, rh Alan
Miller, Andrew Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Moffatt, Laura Singh, Marsha
Moore, Michael Skinner, Dennis
Moran, Margaret Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Elliot Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Morris, rh Estelle Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Mullin, Chris Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck) Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen) Soley, Clive
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke) Southworth, Helen
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks) Spellar, rh John
O'Hara, Edward Squire, Rachel
Olner, Bill Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
O'Neill, Martin Steinberg, Gerry
Öpik, Lembit Stevenson, George
Organ, Diana Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr) Stinchcombe, Paul
Owen, Albert Stoate, Dr. Howard
Palmer, Dr. Nick Stringer, Graham
Perham, Linda Stuart' Ms Gisela
Picking, Anne Stunell, Andrew
Pickthall, Colin Sutcliffe, Gerry
Pike, Peter (Burnley) Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Plaskitt, James Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Pollard Kerry Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Pound, Stephen Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Prescott, rh John Timms, Stephen
Primarolo, rh Dawn Tipping, Paddy
Prosser, Gwyn Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Purchase, Ken Trickett, Jon
Purnell, James Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Quin, rh Joyce Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Quinn, Lawrie
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N) Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Raynsford rh Nick Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Reed, Andy (Loughborough) Vis Dr. Rudi
Rendel, David Walley Ms Joan
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland) Ward Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW) Watson, Tom (w Bromwich E)
Watts, David
Rooney, Terry White Brian
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Roy, Frank (Motherwell) Williams, Betty (Conwy)
Ruddock, Joan Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Russell, Bob (Colchester) Willis, Phil
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester) Wills, Michael
Wood, Mike (Batley)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N) Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad Wright, David (Telford)
Savidge, Malcolm Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Sawford, Phil Wyatt, Derek
Sedgemore, Brian Younger-Ross, Richard
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry Tellers for the Ayes:
Sheridan, Jim Mr. Fraser Kemp and
Shipley, Ms Debra Mr. Phil Woolas
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey) Boswell, Tim
Amess, David Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E) Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard Brady, Graham
Baldry, Tony Brazier, Julian
Barker, Gregory Browning, Mrs Angela
Baron, John (Billericay) Burns, Simon
Bercow, John Burnside, David
Beresford, Sir Paul Burt, Alistair
Blunt, Crispin Cameron, David
Cash, William Maples, John
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet) Maude, rh Francis
May, Mrs Theresa
Chope, Christopher Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim Moss, Malcolm
Conway, Derek Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Cormack, Sir Patrick Norman, Archie
Cran, James (Beverley) O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Davis, rh David (Haftemprice & Howden) Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Djanogly, Jonathan Paice, James
Duncan, Alan (Rutland) Paterson, Owen
Evans, Nigel Pickles, Eric
Fabricant, Michael Portillo, rh Michael
Fallon, Michael Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster) Redwood, rh John
Robathan, Andrew
Flook, Adrian Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Forth, rh Eric
Francois, Mark Roe, Mrs Marion
Gale, Roger (N Thanet) Rosindell, Andrew
Garnier, Edward Ruffley, David
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl Sayeed, Jonathan
Goodman, Paul Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Gray, James (N Wilts) Shepherd, Richard
Grayling, Chris Simmonds, Mark
Green, Damian (Ashford) Soames, Nicholas
Greenway, John Spicer, Sir Michael
Grieve, Dominic Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Hammond, Philip Spring, Richard
Hawkins, Nick Stanley, rh Sir John
Heald, Oliver Steen, Anthony
Hendry, Charles Streeter, Gary
Hoban, Mark (Fareham) Swayne, Desmond
Hogg, rh Douglas Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Horam John (Orpington) Syms, Robert
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot) Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Hunter, Andrew Taylor, John (Solihull)
Jack, rh Michael Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Jenkin, Bernard Taylor, Sir Teddy
Kirkbride, Miss Julie Tredinnick, David
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire) Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor Tyrie, Andrew
Lait, Mrs Jacqui Viggers, Peter
Lansley, Andrew Walter, Robert
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E) Whittingdale, John
Liddell-Grainger, Ian Wiggin, Bill
Lidington, David Wilkinson, John
Lilley, rh Peter Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs) Young, rh Sir George
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew Tellers for the Noes:
McLoughlin, Patrick Mr. Laurence Robertson and
Malins, Humfrey Angela Watkinson

Question accordingly agreed to.

Bill read the Third time, and passed.