Commons Sitting of 26 February 2003

Preamble
The House met at half-past Eleven o?clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  TRANSAS GROUP BILL (BY ORDER)
  Order for Second Reading read.
  To be read a Second time on Wednesday 5 March.

Oral Answers to Questions
  INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT
  The Secretary of State was asked—
  INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT

    Health Services (Afghanistan)
    Linda Gilroy: What recent discussions she has had with non-governmental organisations about rebuilding health services in Afghanistan. [98726]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development (Ms Sally Keeble): My officials are in regular contact with NGOs in both Kabul and the UK. NGOs continue to have an important role to play in service delivery, especially as Government capacity is still weak. They have helped to immunise children against polio and measles, and have saved an estimated 30,000 lives. The Department for International Development has financed a number of these health activities.
    Linda Gilroy: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Does she accept that the continuing insecurity, especially outside of Kabul, hampers reconstruction and aid work? In its discussions with NGOs and aid agencies, has her Department explored their concerns about the capacity of joint reaction teams to bring that much-needed security?
    Ms Keeble: I begin by paying tribute to the work that my hon. Friend has done with the Save the Children Fund to raise money for a clinic in Afghanistan. I certainly agree that improving security is one of the key challenges. The aim of the teams to which she refers—they have since been renamed provincial reconstruction teams—is to extend the authority of the Afghan Government, and to help to secure the development of
    242
    a stable environment in the regions. We have been talking to the NGOs about this matter, and I believe that we are due to have further consultations this week.
    Joan Ruddock: Does my hon. Friend agree with the Minister for Women's Affairs in Afghanistan that jobs for women are now absolutely critical, especially given that so many widows are supporting children? Will my hon. Friend undertake to ask her officials to speak to the Minister in Kabul about the possibility of providing funds for some of the many projects that she has identified?
    Ms Keeble: I agree about the importance of tackling gender equality issues and job opportunities for women. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has met the Minister for Women's Affairs, and we will certainly take forward discussions in the way that my hon. Friend suggests. Perhaps we can correspond about that issue.

    Iraq
    Bob Spink: What aid is planned for Iraq following the resolution of the current political situation. [98727]
    The Secretary of State for International Development (Clare Short): The people of Iraq are already suffering a humanitarian catastrophe. Some 60 per cent. of the people in this naturally wealthy and highly educated country are dependent on handouts from the oil for food programme. One third of children in Baghdad-controlled Iraq are chronically malnourished. If the UN authorises military action to force Saddam Hussein to comply with his disarmament obligations, it is essential that great care be taken to minimise any harm to the people of Iraq, who are already very vulnerable. This means very careful targeting of military action, and ensuring that order is maintained, that food distribution is quickly resumed, and that the health, water and sanitation infrastructure is rehabilitated as soon as possible. Planning is in hand for all of this. My greatest worry is that there is not yet agreement that the UN should have the lead role in a post-conflict Iraq. Without that, there would be significant legal and other difficulties for the working of the international humanitarian system.
    Bob Spink: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for that very comprehensive reply. Last week, the hon. Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Connarty) and I travelled to northern Iraq, and we visited the Parliament, refugees and hospitals. The Iraqi Kurds, who asked us to speak for them, support the Prime Minister's moral policy, but they do need protection and aid. Is the Secretary of State aware that only one third of the oil for food programme is getting through to Kurdistan, and what can be done about that? Will she ensure that during and after any conflict, food and medical aid will continue to get through to Kurdistan, and does she agree that Turkish troops must be kept out of Kurdistan, unless the Kurdish leaders specifically invite them in, for humanitarian reasons?
    Clare Short: I agree that, if there is to be military action, it is essential that the authority of the UN be

    243
    upheld. If such action is to be authorised by the UN, making sure that the people are protected, and that feeding continues, will be crucial. The people are in very bad shape, and 60 per cent. of them are dependent on oil for food, which would be likely to break down. It is a very large-scale operation, and it would be essential to act quickly to keep food moving in Kurdistan and in the rest of the country, and to get the medical infrastructure working. In fact, the people of Kurdistan, which has the same UN sanctions and oil for food as the rest of the country, are in much better shape. That shows the way in which Saddam Hussein has manipulated the UN regime against the interests of his people. I note what the hon. Gentleman says about Turkish troops, and I shall make sure that that is conveyed to the appropriate authorities.
    Ann Clwyd: My right hon. Friend will know that I paid a separate visit to northern Iraq, where the main concern is that Saddam Hussein may again use chemical weapons against the Kurds. People especially want to know what protection we can give them against those possible chemical attacks. Chamchamal is the mountain top on the road down from Kurdistan to Kirkuk. From there, one can see Iraqi troops on the hills, and they have rockets. The fears of the Kurds are very strong indeed. Will my right hon. Friend say what practical protection we are offering the Kurds?
    Clare Short: I agree that the risk, in both Kurdistan and Baghdad, that chemical and biological weapons will be used by Saddam Hussein in a way that inflicts harm on Iraqi people is one of the most serious that we face. I assure my hon. Friend that those risks and dangers are being carefully thought through and that we are trying to minimise them, but I am afraid that no one can give an absolute guarantee that they can be prevented. However, every effort will be made to bring help to any people who might be affected.
    Mrs. Caroline Spelman: On 12 February, the Secretary of State told the International Development Committee that the military had not taken into account all the humanitarian risks that might result from military action. What did she mean when she said that she had struggled to be listened to by the military? Has communication improved?
    Clare Short: I take the old-fashioned view that it is right to tell the House of Commons the truth, and not to pretend that all is well. If there have been delays in the military giving consideration to humanitarian risks—and there have—I have to tell the House of Commons that that is the case. There has been improvement, but getting agreement on a UN lead is absolutely key, and that is not in place. More work needs to be done to face up to all the eventualities.
    Mrs. Spelman: Briefings given to hon. Members for today's debate by non-governmental organisations working in and around Iraq express concern that the Secretary of State has not been working closely with them in preparation for the humanitarian consequences of a war in the area. I recognise the sensitivities of military planning, but will the right hon. Lady explain why there has been so little consultation or sharing of
    244
    information with NGOs, many of which have years of experience of working in Iraq and extensive experience of humanitarian relief and rehabilitation?
    Clare Short: One of the least attractive aspects of some NGO behaviour is the attempt to grandstand and appear in the media when there is a crisis. We have had close relationships over a long period of time with some NGOs working in northern Iraq and with an even smaller number in Baghdad-controlled Iraq. My officials have met representatives of NGOs to talk about the present situation. As I made clear to the Select Committee, NGOs would not be operational in the early stages, as they are not the first call to get things right, but we are in contact with them. I really do not think that anyone should grandstand on these issues.
    Mrs. Spelman: The whole House is aware of, and sympathetic to, the doubts and concerns that the Secretary of State has publicly admitted about the prospect of war in Iraq. However, does she accept that the effect of those doubts has been to prevent her from engaging properly in all attempts to discuss what humanitarian plans would be in place to mitigate the consequences of war? Does she also accept that, ironically, that could have grave consequences for the people of Iraq?
    Clare Short: No. I think that the hon. Lady is engaging in cheap and inaccurate point scoring—another example of grandstanding about this crisis. She put this proposition in a debate some time ago, and I answered her fully. Her simplistic view that we should get on with the war, after which my Department and a few people can clean up, is ill informed. I and my Department have been fully engaged in trying to get the world to face the humanitarian risks and make preparations. I have explained that to the hon. Lady before, but she goes on with her cheap point scoring.
    Mr. David Heath: In her discussions with those planning the military contingencies, has the Secretary of State discussed the imperative of ensuring that Basra is occupied at an early stage, is maintained as a safe haven—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. There is so much noise in the House that it is unfair to those who are listening to the question.
    Mr. Heath: Has the imperative that Basra should be maintained as a safe haven and a port of supply been considered? Is there an arrangement that might ensure that that is secured, thus avoiding displaced people finding their way into states that are incapable of supporting them?
    Clare Short: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there is detailed thinking about Basra, and I do not think that I can say any more than that.
    Michael Fabricant: What contingency plans she has in place for aid to Iraqi displaced persons following possible conflict with Iraq; and if she will make a statement. [98728]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development (Ms Sally Keeble): My Department is holding regular discussions with international organisations about contingency planning for a range of eventualities in Iraq. In the event of substantial population movements, we would expect the International Committee of the Red Cross to be the lead international agency in helping internally displaced people and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to take the lead in providing assistance to refugees. In addition to our regular contributions we are giving an extra £3.5 million to support UN contingency planning for humanitarian relief in Iraq.
    Michael Fabricant: I thank the Minister very much for that helpful answer, but she will be aware that the UNHCR is predicting that possibly 3 million people will be displaced following a regime change. I fully understand that neither the United Kingdom nor the United States can act alone, but what steps is her Department taking to encourage the UN and other powers to ensure that those people can be cared for after a regime change, which, I believe, is now inevitable?
    Ms Keeble: I remind the hon. Gentleman that, in addition to any scenario that has been predicted, there are a substantial number of internally displaced persons—between 1 million and 2 million—now in Iraq as a result of the appalling regime there. I do not want to speculate on the outcome of any action, but our Department, as my right hon. Friend has said, is putting every possible effort into strengthening the UN role and response to deal with any humanitarian crisis afterwards.
    Mr. Harry Barnes: The Secretary of State told the House on 30 January that, if there is a war in Iraq, and without good organisation, there would be a humanitarian nightmare if large-scale ethnic fighting broke out in Iraq. What action is the Department taking to ensure such organisation in the event of the nightmare of an attack on Iraq?
    Ms Keeble: Quite a number of scenarios are being considered, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has done a great deal of work to try to make sure that those eventualities do not occur and that we prevent the nightmare that my hon. Friend mentions. We are currently working very closely with the UN to consider what those scenarios might be and to ensure that we have a properly supported UN system in place to take the lead.
    Mr. Crispin Blunt: It is the Government's position that resolution 1441 already provides the authority to use force against Iraq. If that force is used in those circumstances and UN authority and agreement has not been reached for the post-conflict administration of Iraq, it will be absolutely essential that the Department for International Development is fully involved in assisting with the civil administration of Iraq
    246
    to ensure that the American military are in that position for the minimum amount of time. Will the Minister assure the House that her Department is making every effort to ensure not only UN agreement, if possible, but the full deployment of all the Department?s resources to make sure that post-conflict Iraq is administered in a way that will ensure a peaceful settlement there?
    Ms Keeble: As usual, the hon. Gentleman has hit on one of the key problems that we face: the legal position of the humanitarian assistance that is provided after any conflict that might take place. We are working very hard to resolve those issues and to strengthen the position and role of the UN. We are also obviously taking careful cognisance of the humanitarian problems that could unfold. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that no Department is more focused on that than the Department for International Development and no person in the Government is doing more on that than my right hon. Friend.

    Afghanistan
    Mr. Ken Purchase: What progress her Department is making towards rebuilding Afghanistan. [98729]
    The Secretary of State for International Development (Clare Short): Rebuilding Afghanistan will require strong Afghan leadership, large amounts of aid and policy support for the long term. Much has been achieved: the election of the Transitional Administration; the establishment of revenue and budget systems; the introduction of a new currency; 2 million refugees have returned; 3 million children are now in school, a third of whom are girls; and millions of children have been vaccinated against polio and measles.
    There is much more to be done, however, and achieving security outside Kabul is key to speeding up progress.
    Mr. Purchase: I thank the Secretary of State for that encouraging answer and the description of all the work currently being done. Does she agree that education must be at the heart of that work? Opportunities for education—especially tertiary education through the universities—are the greatest encouragement that we can give to young people in Afghanistan to remain to help rebuild that country. Will she do all that she can to encourage European and British universities to link with those in Afghanistan, and particularly those in Kabul, to bring those opportunities to thousands of young people in Afghanistan and help them to rebuild?
    Clare Short: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Expansion of rights to education is a human right, but getting girls to school is also profoundly developmental for any country. Girls who have been to school change their country as they grow up. Our focus is therefore on securing universal primary education, and on ensuring that girls are included. A tradition exists of high-quality higher education in Afghanistan, which is being

    247
    redeveloped. I take my hon. Friend?s point, however, and I will look into the question of links with our universities, which I have not yet examined.
    Dr. Jenny Tonge: Despite what the Secretary of State says, she must know that only half the money decided necessary by the World Bank has been pledged to Afghanistan so far. Despite the Prime Minister's promises not to abandon the people of that country, that is precisely what is happening. The USA and her Government have moved on and plan even worse destruction for Iraq. Because she knows that that is true, will she seriously consider joining many of her colleagues and the Liberal Democrats in the Lobby tonight to avert a new disaster?
    Clare Short rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The Secretary of State will not reply to that. It was out of order.
    Mr. Russell Brown: I very much appreciate the work of my right hon. Friend and her Department, but how much collaborative and cooperative working is being undertaken by her Department with any US Government Departments?
    Clare Short: In general, in international development, as in many other things, the US tends to take quite a unilateralist approach. It has a big commitment in Afghanistan and elsewhere, but it tends to operate on its own. The UK leads increasingly on rebuilding the institutions of the country, and on building its management of the economy and its capacity to provide services to its people. We collaborate, but we operate in different ways generally across the world, and we try to make sure that that is complementary.

    Millennium Development Goals
    Helen Jones: If she will make a statement on progress towards the millennium development goals. [98730]
    The Secretary of State for International Development (Clare Short): The world is on track to meet the overarching millennium development goal of halving the proportion of people in poverty by 2015. That will mean 1 billion people having lifted themselves out of extreme poverty between 1990 and 2015. However, progress is not even across the world. Large parts of Africa are not on target, and better progress is possible on many of the goals. In short, the world is making progress, but with a greater effort we could do much better.
    Helen Jones: I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply, but she will know better than anyone that achieving those goals will require a substantial increase in resources. What are the Government doing to make progress towards a target of spending 0.7 per cent. of GDP on development
    248
    assistance? What is being done to encourage our European partners to do the same, bearing in mind that they agreed to that back in 2001?
    Clare Short: My hon. Friend is right. We have about $52 billion in the international development system. When one reflects on the fact that 1.2 billion people live in abject poverty, half of humanity lives in deep poverty and how much we spend on public services in our countries, one realises that that is a pathetic amount, although it is increasingly effectively deployed. For that reason, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor is working internationally to mobilise commitment to an international financing facility that would double the amount of aid available to $100 billion, which is increasingly getting support across the international system. That was the estimate made at the Monterrey conference of the amount needed to support countries to meet the millennium development goals, and we must all work to support the Chancellor in that effort.[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker:: Order. There is still far too much noise in the Chamber.
    Sir Nicholas Winterton: I greatly admire much of what the right hon. Lady is doing to reduce poverty in the world, which was the subject of the question that she has just answered. What more will she and the Government do to remove from office a man who is bringing an increasing percentage of his population into starvation and poverty? I refer to that tyrant, Robert Mugabe.
    Clare Short: There is no doubt that the situation in Zimbabwe is serious and brutal. Seven million people need food aid. Projections suggest that the rest of the region will probably recover next year, but that things will get worse in Zimbabwe. There are only 11.2 million people in the country now and 9 million of them will need food aid next year.
    As the hon. Gentleman will know, international law says that it is not legal for countries to seek to remove individual rulers. However, it is highly likely that the people of Zimbabwe will shortly bring down the leadership of Robert Mugabe. We will then all work to help the people to take their country forward again.
    Mr. Neil Gerrard: Among the millennium development goals is a significant reduction in HIV infection. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, if we are to achieve that reduction, it is important that the global fund for health is a success? Although it is welcome that the US has committed significant extra money over the next five years, there is a problem in the short term. This year, the fund does not have the money to deal properly with the commitments for round 3, which is due later this year. Will my right hon. Friend consider what can be done to ensure that the fund can go ahead with round 3 distributions this year?
    Clare Short: I agree that the global fund for health is important, but I am afraid that it is not being as well led as it might be. Its role is to provide drugs and commodities for the treatment of tuberculosis, HIV and malaria, but health care systems must be in place to

    249
    deliver them. A twin-track approach is therefore required. Unfortunately, the leadership of the fund has over-committed and is operating separately from health reform agendas. The US has just committed the money that it promised originally. However, I am holding back from any further commitments until there is a more clearly targeted effort to collaborate in the strengthening of health systems. Rather than simply giving more money, I am in dialogue with the fund about doing a better job.
    Mr. Gary Streeter: I commend the Secretary of State for the excellent work of her Department. Does she agree that the best way to reach vital targets is to encourage each developing country to move towards its own benign governance, the rule of law and a market-based economy? Ultimately, nothing else is sustainable. Will she say a little more about the capacity building measures of her Department to try to bring about such end results?
    Clare Short: I agree with the hon. Gentleman—to achieve a growing economy, effective modern governance is needed, as well as a respect for human rights and democracy; also needed are a treasury that works, procures properly and is not corrupt; a central bank that works; and a macro-economic framework that allows the local private sector and inward investment to work. That is why, in developing countries, we put such stress on the building of effective and modern state institutions with democratic accountability. Progress is being made in many countries but, as the hon. Gentleman knows, some are not on that path. We have to make greater efforts.

    Education (Developing Countries)
    Mrs. Betty Williams: What steps she is taking to improve girls' access to education in developing countries. [98732]
    The Secretary of State for International Development (Clare Short): Since 1990, the number of primary schoolchildren who are out of school has decreased from 130 million to 115 million, so progress has been made. However, the number of children who are out of school is still unacceptably high. Globally, girls still represent 56 per cent. of children currently out of school, and 66 per cent. in south and west Asia. We are working with a variety of partners to help to accelerate progress on girls' education. We plan to spend £1.3 billion on basic education over the next five years.
    Mrs. Betty Williams: I thank my right hon. Friend for that encouraging response. She will be aware of the Global Campaign For Education, which is about to report on girls' education—its main campaign focus for 2003. Is she aware that the campaign will be holding a seminar in Portcullis House on 8 April, where my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Ms King) will be on the panel? Will my right hon. Friend join me in encouraging the campaign and congratulating the people involved on their excellent work?
    Clare Short: I am happy to congratulate anyone who is committed to driving forward the implementation of
    250
    the millennium development goal to get all children in the world, including girls, into basic education. In the poorest countries, girls tend not to be in school. Getting girls to school and a generation of them through primary education brings the biggest development effect in any country. Girls who go to school as they grow up marry later, have fewer children who are more likely to survive, increase household income, get their own children into school and access health care. That is fundamental to progress in development in the poorest countries.

  The Prime Minister was asked—
  PRIME MINISTER

    Engagements
    Ql. [98741] Dr. Phyllis Starkey: If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 26th February.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Tony Blair): This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I will have further such meetings later today.
    Dr. Starkey: Thanks to this Government's increased spending on the NHS, Milton Keynes general hospital in my constituency has increased nursing staff by 27 per cent. since April 2000 and a new 28-bed unit is due to open at the end of next month. However, my right hon. Friend will be aware that Milton Keynes has been designated as a housing growth area, and it is estimated that we will need an extra 400 hospital beds to cope with the needs of the new population. Will he ensure that all Departments take into account the extra needs of Milton Keynes for public services to deal with the needs of our population and look at ways of funding that through the council tax and other funding mechanisms?
    The Prime Minister: I can assure my hon. Friend that we will indeed take that into account in allocating resources. That is why in the primary care trust in Milton Keynes there has been, I think, a 10 per cent. real-terms increase. It is not just the number of nurses in her area; over the past few years, 40,000 extra nurses have been employed in the national health service. There are substantially more operations for heart, hip and cataract and there are more doctors and more consultants. That is all a result of the record investment in the national health service—an investment that the Labour party, at least, is committed to keeping.
    Mr. lain Duncan Smith: Does the Prime Minister agree that any country that supported resolution 1441 should support the second resolution that naturally flows from it?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, I certainly do agree with that.
    Mr. Duncan Smith: The Prime Minister recently said he would support action without a second resolution only if there was an "unreasonable veto" in the Security

    251
    Council. Given his answer to my first question, is not the logic of his position now that any veto would be unreasonable?
    The Prime Minister: It certainly would be an unreasonable veto if Iraq is in material breach and we do not pass a resolution, because resolution 1441 made it absolutely clear that Iraq had a final opportunity to comply. If it is not complying, it is in breach. Therefore, that is why I believe that a second resolution should issue and it is also why I believe that, in the end, it will issue.
    Mr. Duncan Smith: We all in the House obviously want to see a majority in the Security Council on that second resolution, but the Prime Minister made it very clear yesterday that it is essential that Saddam Hussein knows he faces a simple choice: voluntary disarmament or disarmament by force. Given those remarks, is it now the Prime Minister's position that he will support action even if there is no majority for a second resolution?
    The Prime Minister: I believe that we will have support for a second resolution. As I said in answer to questions yesterday, I do not think that it is helpful to speculate on what might or might not happen. I believe that the logic of our position is very clear. Indeed, Dr. Blix has said today:
    "At the moment it is not even clear whether the Iraqis really want to co-operate."
    That situation is very clear, and that is why I believe that our strategy of putting down the resolution and then bringing people round to the proposition that this was the final opportunity for Saddam to disarm—he has not disarmed—is so important. However, I point out that, at the present time, we are not at conflict and that Saddam still has the opportunity, if he were to take it, of full compliance. So far, he has not done so.
    Kevin Brennan: With the inevitable focus today on the possibility of war with Iraq, does the Prime Minister understand the concern of those of us who have been in Northern Ireland this week that the moment of truth for the peace process is also imminent there? What assurances can he give the House that the prize of peace in these islands will not be lost in the gathering clouds of war with Iraq?
    The Prime Minister: I hope that I can give some reassurance on that score, since I have had meetings both in Northern Ireland and here with the main parties concerned with the Northern Ireland peace process. I am due to have further meetings over the next few days, including with the Taoiseach and the main political parties. I can assure my hon. Friend that, whatever the difficulties, we have come a long way in Northern Ireland over the past five or six years. I shall certainly continue to do everything that I can to bring the process to the right conclusion and a fruitful and just one for all the people in Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Charles Kennedy: Will the Prime Minister acknowledge that, unless the United Nations weapons inspectorate were to
    252
    conclude that the inspection process itself had failed, it would be quite wrong for this country to participate in pre-emptive military action against Iraq?
    The Prime Minister: I would put it in this way: it is for the inspectors to give us evidence as to the facts that they find, but what is crucial, because this is what the Security Council has laid down, is that there is full, complete, unconditional and immediate compliance by Saddam. That is what we all agreed when resolution 1441 was passed. Let me read to the right hon. Gentleman what he himself said last November:
    "I think that the present resolution that has been passed can be interpreted obviously, as giving further cause for military intervention if there have been material breaches."
    The definition of the breach is that there has to be full co-operation, and if there is not, resolution 1441 says that Saddam is in breach. I would have thought on the basis of what the right hon. Gentleman said last November that he would agree with me.
    Mr. Kennedy: If the Prime Minister is not prepared to rule out precipitate military action against Iraq, is not the greater consequence and danger that the international coalition against terrorism on which he and everybody else lay such rightful importance would itself he shattered?
    The Prime Minister: Surely the right way to proceed is through the logic of the resolution that we agreed last November. The simple case is that, unless the United Nations carries through what it agreed last November, it is the authority of the UN itself that will be undermined. I simply say to the right hon. Gentleman that no one, surely, could accuse us of taking precipitate action when we have been trying for 12 years to get Saddam to give up his weapons of mass destruction, it is six months since President Bush addressed the UN and four months since the UN resolution, and still he is not in compliance. If the right hon. Gentleman wants any indication of the nature of the regime, I hope that he and others will listen to the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), who has come back from northern Iraq and will I think give powerful testimony as to the true effects of the regime under Saddam Hussein and exactly what is happening in Iraq today.
    Mr. George Howarth: Although my right hon. Friend will have many pressing issues to discuss during his visit to Spain later this week, will he take the opportunity to raise the case of my constituent Kevan Sloan, who served 22 months of a sentence for armed robbery based on, in my view, hopelessly flawed legal proceedings? Will he impress upon the Spanish authorities the urgency of the case, since Kevan's application for deportation is due to be considered at the end of this week?
    The Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend obviously knows, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary met him and the family of his constituent and we are in close

    253
    touch with the Spanish authorities about this matter. We will remain in close touch and I hope that the matter can be satisfactorily resolved.
    Q.3 [98743] Mr. Andrew Tyrie: Does the Prime Minister accept that the manipulative media operation that he installed at No. 10 Downing street after 1997 has eroded the electorate's trust in him? Does he also accept that that loss of trust in him personally is now carrying a huge price as it is partly to blame for his inability to convince the British people over Iraq?
    The Prime Minister: The case that we have set out in respect of Iraq is a good one. I hope that if people listen to it and study it in detail they will accept that if we do have to act and go to war it will not be because we want to, but because of the breaches by Saddam Hussein of the United Nations resolutions. I believe that the more people hear that argument and understand it, the more they will accept it.
    Q. [98744] Mr. Chris Mullin: Has my right hon. Friend heard the concern recently expressed by the Prime Minister of Ethiopia that the crisis over Iraq is distracting attention from international efforts to save the people in his country—between 12 million and 15 million—who are facing starvation? He said that insufficient food has been pledged and that it is arriving too slowly. What assurance can my right hon. Friend give that the international community will not lose sight of the impending catastrophe in Ethiopia?
    The Prime Minister: I met Prime Minister Meles of Ethiopia yesterday and we discussed the situation in his country. I assured him that we will remain entirely focused on it. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development agreed a few weeks ago a memorandum of understanding that will pledge somewhere in the region of £60 million over the next few years to help famine relief and development in Ethiopia. I assure my hon. Friend that whatever other issues are going on, we remain completely committed not only to Ethiopia, but to the cause of Africa. Under this Government we will achieve over the next few years a doubling and then a trebling of the amount of aid that was going to Africa when we came to office.
    Mr. lain Duncan Smith: The Prime Minister and his Government promised that families would not have to pay steep council tax rises. Can the Prime Minister tell us by how much council tax has increased since he came to office?
    The Prime Minister: Well, I can say to him that as a result of the additional sums of money that we have given there has been an increase of 25 per cent. in the amount of money that we have given to councils over the past few years, which contrasts with a 7 per cent. cut in the amount of money that was given under the Conservatives.
    Mr. Duncan Smith: The answer is that average household council tax—[Interruption.] They do not want to hear it because it hurts. The average household council tax bill has increased by 42 per cent. since the
    254
    Government came to power. Come April, council tax bills are set to rise by up to 10 times the rate of inflation. This from a Prime Minister who promised:
    "We've no plans to increase tax at all."
    In the same month the Prime Minister is going to hike up national insurance contributions. Can he tell us how much extra a typical family will pay as a result of his national insurance tax hike and council tax increases?
    The Prime Minister: A family on median earnings will pay just under £4 a week, but that is actually a good deal if it means more money for the national health service and does not mean that they are forced, as they would be under his proposals, to deal with a health service that is underfunded or, as the Conservatives want, forced out into the private medical insurance sector, which would be an absolute disaster for them, and which many of them would not be able to afford.
    Mr. Duncan Smith: Well, broken promises, and he discards them very easily. The answer is that the average family will now pay £570 more—the cost to them of the tax hike through jobs and the extra council tax that they will pay, which he promised that they would not pay. This from a Prime Minister who said:
    "I vow that the promises we make on tax, we will keep."
    After 53 tax rises all those promises have been broken, so people now know that instead of listening to what the Prime Minister says they should look at their wallets to see what they are now having to pay.
    The Prime Minister: First, the tax burden this year will be less than in eight of the 11 years of the Thatcher Governments. That is just to set it in context. Secondly, I agree that we are indeed putting up national insurance contributions by 1 per cent. this April to pay for the national health service. However, the alternative is an underfunded national health service. That means that people will be forced to go outside the NHS and pay for their operations and health care in the private sector. He must explain how the health service will be improved not only through opposing the extra money for it but by imposing a 20 per cent. cut across the board in national health service spending. That would be a disaster for the people of this country, and it is why they rejected the Conservative party in the past two general elections.

    Workload
    Mr. Graham Allen: What steps he is taking to reduce his workload; and if he will make a statement.
    The Prime Minister: None.
    Mr. Allen: Given his workload, will the Prime Minister tell the House and the nation what legal or statutory authority he has to commit British troops to war?
    The Prime Minister: I shall act in accordance with constitutional precedent and with the way in which this

    255
    country has always approached such issues. The Government, including me, will act in accordance with international law.
    Sue Doughty: Is the Prime Minister aware that many people in Palestine fear that, in the case of military action, the eyes of the world will be distracted from them and that they are at risk of more illegal incursions by Israel? What will the Government do about that?
    The Prime Minister: As part of my workload, it is important to focus on the middle east peace process. The Government have tried to play a part in that by taking forward the process of political reform in the Palestinian Authority. I believe that it is as important as anything else in the world today to try to ensure a just and lasting settlement in the middle east, based on the two-state solution: an Israel that is confident of its security and a viable Palestinian state. We will work towards that outcome.

    Drugs Treatment
    John Mann: How many drug addicts in treatment are (a) in residential rehabilitation, (b) on a course of methadone, (c) on a course of naltraxone and (d) on a course of buprenorphine.
    The Prime Minister: The latest published Department of Health statistics show that nearly 2,000 individuals were in residential rehabilitation out of a total of 118,500 people in treatment in England in 2000–01. National figures for those receiving specific drug therapies have not been collected in the past, but they will be available later in 2003 following the introduction of a new recording system. Overall, the number of drug users who presented for treatment between 2001–02 showed an 8 per cent. rise.
    John Mann: As the Government's updated drugs strategy states that for every £1 spent on treatment, there will be a saving of £3 in criminal justice costs, can I have the money to prove that assertion in my constituency? I promise that I will return every penny of the threefold saving to the Chancellor.
    The Prime Minister: It is certainly a better offer than the Chancellor is used to on such subjects. My hon. Friend has lobbied me on the subject and we are considering the areas that the service will cover. We will focus on the 30 highest basic command unit crime areas and we want to ensure the provision of a service that tracks people from the moment of arrest, when they are tested, through bail, when they are given the option of treatment, or refusal of bail, to sentencing, when, in appropriate cases, they will be offered the prospect of treatment rather than custody. Massive resources are going into that; we are increasing the funding spectacularly in the next few years to accommodate the policy. If it works in the 30 main BCU areas, we can roll it out across the country. However, I shall again consider carefully my hon. Friend's request to be included.
    Angela Watkinson: In the light of the International Narcotics Control Board?s report, which
    256
    condemns the country's drugs policy, will the Prime Minister reconsider the reclassification of cannabis from class B to class C?
    The Prime Minister: We did that for the reasons that the Home Secretary set out. We have not decriminalised cannabis for reasons that my right hon. Friend explained well. Of course, there is a big debate about the matter, but it is worth bearing in mind that the priorities for many police officers in this country are hard drugs.
    Jim Sheridan: My right hon. Friend will be aware, and no doubt proud, of the Government?s track record on introducing legislation that provides protection for workers in the workplace—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sorry but the hon. Gentleman should be asking a question on drugs.

    Engagements
    Mr. George Osborne: On Iraq, does the Prime Minister agree that what lies behind some of the opposition to his policy is a caricature of President George W. Bush which is a gross distortion of the truth? Will he take this timely opportunity to set the record straight?
    The Prime Minister: I suspect that I am surrounded by advice on that particular topic. I have always found in my dealings with President Bush that he has been honest and straightforward. What is more, he chose to go through the United Nations route last year when many expected him not to. We should pay tribute to him for that.
    Paddy Tipping: Despite record high levels of police officers both in Nottinghamshire and nationally, concerns remain about the level of antisocial and yobbish behaviour. What further measures does my right hon. Friend intend to take to tackle that real nuisance?
    The Prime Minister: The Home Secretary has two major pieces of legislation for this Session: one is the Criminal Justice Bill; the other is the antisocial behaviour Bill. He and I met some senior police officers yesterday to discuss what could go into the legislation. Both Bills offer us the real opportunity to reform the criminal justice system, which urgently needs reform, and to introduce simple and easy-to-use penalties for police officers to tackle antisocial behaviour. Part of the problem they face is that the law is far too cumbersome to allow them to deal with some of the low-level disorder that makes people's lives hell in local communities. Fixed-penalty notices in particular, which are being piloted in different parts of the country, have been immensely successful in tackling that problem.
    Chris Grayling: There are increasing reports of pupils of high ability and

    257
    achievement being turned down by universities because of their social background. How would the Prime Minister justify that to the people who are losing out?
    The Prime Minister: The simple point is that I would not. If universities are doing that, they are wrong. What is more, people should go to university based on their merit, whatever their class or background. That is what should happen.[Interruption.] Well, the hon. Gentleman asked me a question and I have given him an answer.
    Geraint Davies: My constituent, Feroz Abbasi, has been detained for more than a year by the American authorities, without charge, in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The Court of Appeal has described that as a contravention of the principles of law. Will my right hon. Friend undertake to receive and evaluate the evidence against my constituent and to press the American authorities to charge and punish him or return him without delay back home to Britain?
    The Prime Minister: I totally understand the concern that my hon. Friend raises. The Foreign Secretary has indicated to me that he would be happy to meet my hon. Friend and the family of his constituent. It is a highly unusual and difficult situation. We have been in touch with and have visited on several occasions those British nationals who are detained in Guantanamo Bay, but the situation is difficult. The one caveat I would enter is that we are still receiving quite valuable information from people who are there. However, I agree that it is an irregular situation and we would certainly want to try to bring it to an end as swiftly as possible.
    Mr. Andrew Turner: The Prime Minister promised in 1999 that within two years everyone would have access to an NHS dentist through NHS Direct. Yet in my constituency and many others there are no vacancies on NHS waiting lists. Given that the Government are developing a reputation for saying one thing and doing another, is it any surprise that people do not trust him on the important issue of Iraq?
    The Prime Minister: I obviously do not know the exact circumstances of the hon. Gentleman's constituents. According to the briefing I have, however, almost £700,000 extra has been provided for dental services in his area. The reason we are putting so many additional resources into the national health service is precisely in order to ensure that people get proper access to it. What he will have to explain to his constituents at the next election is why he opposes the extra investment and supports a Conservative leadership that wants to cut investment in the health service by 20 per cent. across the board.
    Mr. Eric Martlew: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are many of his Back Benchers who will support him in tonight's vote on Iraq but who cannot support war against Iraq unless there is a second United
    258
    Nations resolution? Will he make time for the House to have a debate and a vote before we commit British troops to Iraq?
    The Prime Minister: As the Foreign Secretary has already said, subject to the natural qualification that we must do nothing that would ever put the security of our troops in danger, I have no doubt at all that the House will have an opportunity to vote on this issue many times if we come to military action—and, if there is a second resolution, to do so in relation to that second resolution.
    We are not actually voting on the issue of war tonight; we are voting on the issue of the Government's strategy. I assure my hon. Friend that I am well aware that many people want the second resolution, and that is exactly what I want. I assure him that I am working flat out in order to achieve it. But the best way in which we can achieve it is to hold firm to the terms of resolution 1441.
    Increasingly, the whole issue before the international community really comes down to this. When we said last November that this was a final opportunity to Saddam, when we said that there must be full, unconditional and immediate compliance, did we really mean it—or did we mean that we would come along later and say "Well, let's postpone it again"? I believe that we meant it: that we intended this genuinely to be the final opportunity. That is why I say that the onus is now on Saddam to make sure that he has indeed come into compliance with the United Nations' wishes.
    Dr. Vincent Cable: May I return to the issue of the national health service? Is the Prime Minister aware that when members of the public ring the NHS help line, they are greeted by an answering machine which tells them because of staff shortages the service is no longer manned? They are then connected to the Department of Health's inquiry service, which puts them on to a deputy patch manager who connects them with a security guard in a disused NHS building in Birmingham? Can the Government do better?
    The Prime Minister: NHS Direct handles millions of people's calls. It may be that the health service is not improving in the hon. Gentleman's area, but I can tell him from my knowledge of my own constituency and many others I have visited that the health service spending is going in, and it is making a difference. I simply say to the hon. Gentleman that those who try to run down the national health service day in, day out do nothing but help the Conservative case to get rid of the health service altogether.
    Mr. Terry Davis: Is there any other Labour party, Socialist party or Social Democrat party anywhere else in Europe that supports the British and American approach to dealing with Saddam Hussein?
    The Prime Minister: Yes: for example, the Polish Government.
    Mr. Bill Wiggin: If Saddam Hussein was serious about peace, surely he would have released the 605 Kuwaiti prisoners of war who have been held for the last 12 years. What message has the Prime Minister for

    259
    the young people flying out to Iraq who are going as human shields? What advice has he for any British soldier who might see them through the wrong end of a gun sight? And what will happen to those people after the war?
    The Prime Minister: I very much hope that they do not put themselves at risk, as I think they would be doing so in the mistaken view that they were helping the situation—which they would not be. The hon. Gentleman is entirely right to point out that there are still some 600 missing people in Kuwait, but that number goes alongside side the literally hundreds of thousands of people who have died under the regime of Saddam. I received some of the letters that my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) brought back from Iraq only today, but I urge people to read them, and to get at least some sense of the appalling brutality of the regime with which we are dealing.
    Norman Lamb: Along with the concern of so many in the country about the
    260
    possibility of a pre-emptive strike against Iraq, there is real concern among families of our troops who are already in the Gulf. Last night I received a very anxious call from a constituent who had had a letter from her son, who is in the Royal Marines 42 Commando, already in the Gulf. He wrote this to his mother:
    "If you wish to let it be known how the forgotten Commando is surviving with no newspapers, no proper shop, no forces radio station, no e-mails"—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Questions should be brief. Can the Prime Minister manage an answer?
    The Prime Minister: First, as I told the House yesterday, some of those reports about the troops and their equipment are misleading and irresponsible. The fact is, the British Army is one of the best and best equipped anywhere in the world. I do not want to diminish in any way the letter that the hon. Gentleman read out from his constituent, but I bet what the vast bulk of British armed forces out there would really like to know is that if they have to go into conflict, they have a united House and country behind them.

Point of Order
12.30 pm
Mr. Eric Forth: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The House is in an absurd position today, as a long-awaited, oversubscribed and vital debate appears to have to finish at 7 o'clock. Is there any proper reason for that, Mr. Speaker? Is there any reason why, in another place, debate will continue for as long is necessary to hear all the speakers, whereas here we are apparently subject to an arbitrary and unnecessary 7 o'clock time limit? Is there anything that can be done even at this late stage, with your help, Mr. Speaker, and that of the Government, to extend the debate to allow more people to speak on a matter of the greatest importance to hon. Members and everybody in the country?
Mr. Speaker: I am in the hands of the House, and the House has decided that 7 o'clock will be the moment of interruption. There is nothing that I can do about that. However, the right hon. Gentleman gives me the opportunity to say that he is right—many hon. Members have applied to speak in the debate. Before we go onto the main business, we have the ten-minute rule Bill. It would not be appreciated if hon. Members approached the Chair to ask whether there will be an opportunity for them to be called. That would be out of order on a day like this.

Needle Stick Injury
12.32 pm
Laura Moffatt: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision about the protection from needle stick injury and resulting infections of persons employed in the health care sector and of other persons engaged in activities at work which carry a significant risk of such injuries and infections; to establish requirements relating to the recording and publication of information about such injuries and infections; to establish standards relating to the supply and use of certain equipment for work which carries a significant risk of such injury and infections; and for connected purposes.
I should like to start—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is bad manners for hon. Members to hold a conversation, as the hon. Lady is addressing the House. Hon. Members should leave the Chamber quietly and should not walk in front of her, as that is also bad manners.
Laura Moffatt: A needle stick injury is a puncture wound in which the needle is either whole or broken. Astonishingly, 100,000 such injuries are reported to occur in the NHS alone every year. All workers in a health care setting are at risk—nurses, doctors, midwives, phlebotomists, cleaning staff, portering staff, domestic staff, ambulance staff, community nurses and therapists. However, the problem is much bigger because public sector workers, including refuse collectors, park wardens, road sweepers, police and their support staff, gardeners, builders and teachers—in fact anyone who may come into contact with a hypodermic needle—are at risk.
The injuries themselves are comparatively superficial—it is only a pin-prick, after all—and rarely serious, but that only increases the likelihood of underreporting and failure to obtain necessary testing and treatment. I shall come back to that later. The real danger is the infections that may be transmitted, including blood-borne viruses such as HIV, hepatitis C, hepatitis B and 20 other serious blood-borne viruses. The first ever transmission of HIV to a care worker from a patient happened in the UK. So far, five staff are known to have contracted HIV in that way and, sadly, four of them are dead. The Department of Health study in 2001 found the risk of transmission following a needle stick injury to be one in three for hepatitis B, one in 30 for hepatitis C, and one in 300 for HIV.
It is astonishing to learn that needle stick injury is second only to violence and aggression as a cause of occupational injury in the NHS, but it is not only NHS staff who are affected. Between July 1997 and June 2002, the Public Health Laboratory Service received reports of more than 1,500 exposures to blood-borne viruses, of which 734 cases—140 a year—were caused by hollow
bore needles, which are the riskiest. Nurses and doctors account for an astonishing 77 per cent. of those reports.
The Royal College of Nursing is involved in an excellent monitoring study called Epinet, and is working to improve our understanding of the size of the problem and its causes. As I said, the figures show that at least 100,000 needle stick injuries occur every year. Between January and June 2002 across 19 sites, the Epinet study found that 925 incidents were reported. Figures for the six months covered show that on average per 100 beds,

263
12.74 needle stick injuries will occur each year. With under-reporting estimated at about 60 to 80 per cent., the actual figure is probably much higher than 100,000.
The highest cost of all is the distress caused by such an injury. As a nurse with 25 years' experience, I know only too well how much anxiety is caused as a result of needle stick injury. For some, it can take a year of routine testing before they know whether or not they have contracted a life-threatening infection. For most, thankfully, the test results finally come back clear, but for others the news is devastating, life-altering and sometimes life-threatening.
There are financial implications. The Safer Needles Network, which has spearheaded the campaign, has done a huge amount of work around the financial impact on the NHS of such injuries. We already know that people outside the NHS can be at risk, and they may have no idea of the level of risk that the needle with which they have been stuck could cause them.
What happens when someone suffers such an injury, whether it be high or low risk? Some of the implications are time off work, blood tests, occupational health time, vaccination, treatment, counselling, administration time on the part of managerial staff, and of course compensation. The cost to the NHS of a low-risk accident is £310. The cost of a high-risk accident could be as high as £35,000. Taken as a whole throughout the NHS, the cost of needle stick injuries is £300 million. The estimated cost of introducing safer needles into the NHS is £49 million. The figures speak for themselves.
Much of our current legislation and Department of Health guidance is about protecting patients from infected health care workers, and rightly so, but we must ensure that any public sector or health care worker who may be at risk is protected. Safer needles cannot do the job alone. Good education and training for groups at risk is a must. I commend the work of the Federation of Master Builders, which last October issued excellent guidance to its 13,000 members. In 2002, the World Medical Association called on all national medical
264
associations to work with their Governments to develop effective policies on the safe and appropriate use of injections. That is why I am pressing for change today.
Many people are involved in the Safer Needle Network. It is made up of the trade union Unison, the Royal College of Nursing, the British Medical Association, clinicians, professional organisations and, of course, the manufacturers of the devices themselves, all of whom have been working extremely closely with the Department of Health, the Medical Defence Association and Her Majesty's Prison Service. I particularly want to thank Bob Wade for all the help that he has given. I should also like to thank the Minister of State, Department of Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (Mr. Hutton) for the personal interest that he has taken in this matter, and for receiving a delegation led by my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, West and Penistone (Mr. Clapham).
The Bill deals with an important issue that needs to be taken on board by the Government. It is time to protect all workers who are at risk from used needles by improving existing health and safety legislation. For that reason, I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Laura Moffatt, Mr. Michael Clapham, Mr. Ben Chapman, Mr. Neil Gerrard, Ann Keen, Anne Picking, Helen Jones, Jonathan Shaw, Mr. Kelvin Hopkins, Judy Mallaber and Ms Julia Drown.

Needle Stick Injury
  NEEDLE STICK INJURY
  Laura Moffatt accordingly presented a Bill to make provision about the protection from needle stick injury and resulting infections of persons employed in the health care sector and of other persons engaged in activities at work which carry a significant risk of such injuries and infections; to establish requirements relating to the recording and publication of information about such injuries and infections; to establish standards relating to the supply and use of certain equipment for work which carries a significant risk of such injury and infections; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time on Friday 4 April, and to be printed [Bill 61].

Iraq
Mr. Speaker: I inform the House that I have selected the amendment tabled in the name of the right hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith).
12.42 pm
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Jack Straw): I beg to move,
That this House takes note of Command Paper Cm 5769 on Iraq; reaffirms its endorsement of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441, as expressed in its Resolution of 25th November 2002; supports the Government's continuing efforts in the United Nations to disarm Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction; and calls upon Iraq to recognise this as its final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations.
This motion means what it says. It is not an endorsement of military action by United Kingdom forces. No decision to deploy British forces in action has yet been taken. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister spelled out a few moments ago, we will put any decision on military action to the House, and the timing will be subject only to the usual caveats about the safety of our forces. It is as much in the Government's interest as it is in the paramount interest of the House that we should do that before the start of any hostilities. In addition, there will be oral statements to the House on the business of the Security Council, and a full opportunity to debate and vote on the outcome of proceedings on any second resolution.
Let me commend to the House the Command Paper "Iraq", which I presented yesterday. For the convenience of the House, this contains in one document the reports of Dr. Blix and Dr. el-Baradei, statements on the Iraq crisis by the European Union and by NATO, my statements at three recent Security Council meetings, and, above all, the full texts of 13 of the principal Security Council resolutions on Iraq passed since August 1990.
The situation that we face is plainly grave. It is a matter that, across a range of beliefs, arouses great concern and anxiety. So in this debate I want to answer what I think are the central and continuing questions in people's minds. Why Iraq? Why now? Why not more time, more inspectors? Why a second resolution? Why not persist with the policy of containment, rather than contemplate military action? And finally, is not the west guilty of double standards, especially in relation to Israel/Palestine?
Let me deal with those questions in turn. First, why Iraq? The best answer to that question is to be found in the 42 pages of text of the 13 Security Council resolutions that form the first section of the Command Paper. There we see, paragraph by paragraph, the exceptional danger posed by Iraq, and its continued defiance of the United Nations. On 2 August 1990, resolution 660 tells Iraq to withdraw from Kuwait. On 29 November 1990, resolution 678 offers Iraq a "final opportunity"—interesting words—to comply, which it fails to take. On 3 April 1991, resolution 687 gives Iraq until 18 April 1991 to make a full declaration of the "locations, amount and types" of all chemical and biological weapons and of all medium and long-range ballistic missiles. That resolution bars Iraq from ever developing biological, chemical or nuclear weapons.
266
On and on the resolutions go. Resolution 688 is "gravely concerned" about the repression of the civilian population in many parts of Iraq. In 1994, resolution 949
"condemns military deployments by Iraq in the direction of the border with Kuwait",
three years after the original invasion. In 1999, nine years after the invasion of Kuwait, resolution 1284 establishes a further inspection regime
"as a result of Iraq's failure to implement the Security Council Resolutions fully".
Iraq flatly and completely refuses to comply.
Last November, resolution 1441 recognised
"the threat which Iraq's non-compliance with Council Resolutions and proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction and long range missiles poses to international peace and security"—
and gave Iraq its "final opportunity to comply".
So, for the United Nations, the answer to the "Why Iraq?" question is very clear. Iraq is the only country in such serious and multiple breach of mandatory UN obligations. It is the only country in the world to have fired missiles at five of its neighbours, the only country in history to have used chemical weapons against its own people, and the only country in the region that has invaded two of its neighbours in recent years.
Mr. Lindsay Hoyle rose—
Mr. Tam Dalyell: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Straw: As I have explained to you, Mr. Speaker, normally I take many interventions in debates. Because of the intense pressure on time on this occasion, I do not intend to do so, but I will take a few. I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell).
Mr. Dalyell: As a question of fact and before my right hon. Friend leaves the subject of documents, did the dossier that owed so much to that Californian student have the authority of Peter Ricketts and the Joint Intelligence Committee? Did the Joint Intelligence Committee authorise that dossier?
Mr. Straw: Mr. Ricketts ceased to be the secretary of the Joint Intelligence Committee about two years ago. All the information that was attributed as intelligence came from intelligence agencies and the whole of that dossier was accurate. I thought that my hon. Friend was going to ask me whether we had accepted his advice about taking the issue to the United Nations, because this matter has been the subject of 12 years of United Nations resolutions and 12 months of the most intense and proper debate in the House of Commons and in Westminster Hall.
Last March, when there was some speculation about the course of events and whether, for example, the United States would put its case to the United Nations, my hon. Friend said:
"Incidentally, if there is to be any action, it should be taken through the United Nations." —[Official Report, Westminster Hall, 6 March 2002; Vol. 381, c. 70WH.]

267
Several other colleagues who have put their names to the amendment agreed. All I say is that on this matter we have listened carefully to what the House has said. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has talked to President Bush and much discussion has taken place about putting the matter to the United Nations. That is exactly what we did and, on 8 November 2002, we obtained a Security Council resolution. All we are asking now of the international community, Iraq and this House, is that we follow through on the words that were agreed by the United Nations on 8 November and by this House on 25 November.
Several hon. Members rose—
Hon. Members: Give way.
Mr. Straw: No.
The next question that I raised was, "Why now?" All the resolutions of the Security Council, 12 years of them, also help us answer that question.
Saddam's aim is that "now" shall never arrive. His tactics all along have been to prevaricate in the hope that by exploiting people's natural anxieties about military action he can string out the process for ever and keep his arsenal for good.
Let us look at the recent evidence. On 10 September last year, Iraq declared—I was there in the General Assembly when this was said—that it would never, ever readmit weapons inspectors under any circumstances. Then President Bush made his important and most welcome speech to the General Assembly. Four days later, Iraq said that it would after all readmit weapons inspectors, but made its offer subject to 19 spurious conditions of the kind that it has often come forward with. Fortunately, those were rejected.
There were then two months of intense negotiations inside the Security Council. In response, the international community united, resolution 1441 was passed unanimously and the Security Council agreed to back its diplomacy with the credible threat of force. The inspectors finally entered Iraq on 27 November, looking, as the resolution required, for full, active and immediate co-operation from Iraq.
But since the inspectors' return the story has been all too familiar. We saw first a 12,000-page Iraqi declaration, which Dr. Blix called
"rich in volume but poor in new information … and practically devoid of new evidence."
There have been concerted Iraqi efforts to prevent unrestricted interviews with scientists. The issue of interviews with the scientists is not a trivial matter. It is the most important way in which we can arrive at the truth of Iraq's chemical and biological weapons programmes.
Iraq refused any interviews to begin with. Since the weapons inspectors pressed the Iraqis, there have been three private interviews, all within the closing days up to Dr. Blix's report on 14 February, and, despite what we see in some newspapers about increased co-operation by the Iraqis, not one interview has been granted since.
268
Time after time after time the Iraqis seek to impose conditions that make free and fair interviews almost impossible.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. Straw: I shall give way to the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) in a moment.
There have been categorical Iraqi denials that the al-Samoud missile has a range in excess of the 150 km limit prescribed by the United Nations, an assertion since disproved by an independent panel of experts from the five permanent members of the Security Council and by UNMOVIC.
Crucially, there have been no answers to the outstanding disarmament issues listed in UNSCOM's final report to the Security Council in February 1999.
As a result, as Dr. Blix himself indicates, in 15 weeks, the inspectors have not been able to close a single outstanding issue. There have been no answers to what has happened to the 8,500 litres of anthrax; no answers to what has happened to the 360 tonnes of bulk chemical warfare agent; no answers to what has happened to the 3,000 tonnes of precursor chemicals; no answers to what has happened to the 1.5 tonnes of the completely deadly VX nerve agent or to the 6,500 chemical bombs identified by Dr. Blix on 27 January. The intimidation of scientists and their families so that they do not give full evidence has continued.
Mr. Alex Salmond: On 6 February, the same day as the dodgy dossier was exposed as a fabrication, the Prime Minister said on "Newsnight", in front of a studio audience, that the only circumstances in which force would be used without a further UN resolution were if the inspectors concluded that they could no longer do their work and if a further resolution was passed by a majority in the Security Council but was subject to an "unreasonable" veto by a single country. Is that still the position of the United Kingdom Government or has it changed again?
Mr. Straw: I heard the interview too. What my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister also made clear was that our policy is 100 per cent. support for and full implementation of resolution 1441. What the hon. Gentleman is now trying to do— having got resolution 1441 and having signed up to it, having asked for the United Nations to be brought in, having asked us to take the United Nations route—is to rewrite the terms of the resolution.
Mr. Hoyle: Can my right hon. Friend explain why we have the motion today and not next week, following the statement by Dr. Blix on Friday? We would all like to know why it is so important.
Mr. Straw: We have sought to have as many debates as possible, and, on the entirely proper request of hon. Members on both sides of the House, to do so on substantive resolutions, so that hon. Members are not voting on an Adjournment, but are voting on the substance of the issue. Normally the complaint is that we have not had a debate soon enough. I plead guilty to the fact that we have not delayed this debate. We are

269
having it today because we thought it entirely appropriate, given that we have submitted a draft resolution to the United Nations Security Council. As made clear in my opening remarks, once there is a conclusion to the Security Council proceedings—and it may well be before that, too—we shall have a further debate and a vote in the House.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. Straw: I know that many hon. Members wish to take part in the debate, so the House will have to excuse me if I do not give way.
The next question that I raised was about more time and more inspections. I understand why there are calls for more time and more inspections, but Saddam has not shown that he is ready to break with the past. That is exactly what Dr. Blix said today. At present, it is not even clear whether the Iraqis really want to co-operate. In these circumstances, in the absence of active and immediate Iraqi co-operation, more time will not achieve anything of substance. Nor, without that active co-operation, can it be a question of more inspectors.
It took just nine inspectors to verify the disarmament of South Africa's nuclear weapons programme at the end of apartheid. It did not take 12 years. It did not take hundreds of inspectors. It did not take endless Security Council resolutions. It took three years, nine inspectors and no resolutions. Why? Because South Africa was complying with the inspectors.
It is critical that, in respect of Iraq, we all accept one reality above all, which is that what grudging concessions on process there have been from Saddam have been secured only because of the military build-up. What is the difference between the circumstances now and the circumstances when resolution 1284 was agreed at the end of 1999, the resolution that set up the organisation of weapons inspectors, UNMOVIC? There is some difference in terms of the powers of the weapons inspectors. But the only significant, material difference is that, back at the end of 1999, the world said, "Let us try giving them more time. Let us try by a completely peaceful route to secure the disarmament of Iraq. Let us plead with the Iraqis to do the decent thing. Let us impose some sanctions, too, and hope that they will work."
Saddam's answer was to slam the door in the face of the international community. The only reason for the difference between Saddam's refusal to co-operate with one dot or comma in resolution 1284 and his very reluctant co-operation on some process today, his statement that he will co-operate, is the build-up of the credible threat of force, something clearly recognised by the United Nations charter.
I was glad to note that President Chirac of France—and I pay tribute to him—conceded in an interview last week in Time magazine that it was the military build-up that had made the difference. There is a logic that follows—
Paul Flynn rose—
Mr. Straw: I shall give way to my hon. Friend in a moment. I always do. I do not know why.
270
There is a logic that follows from what I have said that cannot be avoided and is for everybody in the international community. We are now close to the crunch point. Saddam must either embark immediately on voluntary and full disarmament or the Security Council must face up to its responsibility to see that he is disarmed by force. That is the truth. That is the reality.
Paul Flynn: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way.
My point is in connection with what my right hon. Friend said at the beginning of his speech, which seems to contradict what he told the House on 7 November. When he was asked what "serious consequences" in resolution 1441 meant, he replied:
"consequences up to and including military force"—[Official Report, 7 November 2002; Vol. 392, c. 436.]
Is it not right that anyone who votes for the main resolution today will in fact be voting for war?
Mr. Straw: For one moment, I was worried that I had said something inconsistent back in November—that sometimes happens, even with me—but on this occasion I agree entirely with the words that I uttered then. Indeed, I could not have been more accurate. I wanted then to spell out to the House what "serious consequences" meant. I wanted to tell the House without any dubiety that in voting to support resolution 1441, which we did by a huge majority, we were voting to recognise the serious consequences that would flow from a further material breach by Saddam Hussein, up to and including the use of force.
I repeat for my hon. Friend what I said at the beginning of this debate. The United Nations is responsible for its resolutions, but the House as a whole is responsible for the motions that it passes. Notwithstanding my hon. Friend's invitation that we should seek a mandate for military action, we are not seeking one today because the Government have not yet got to that point. If we do reach that point, we will come back and seek a vote, through a debate in this House, on a substantive motion.
Joan Ruddock: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Straw: No. I am so sorry, but as my hon. Friend knows, there is great time pressure.
The next question is why do we need a second resolution now? Resolution 1441 required Iraq's full, active and immediate compliance, as indeed did resolution 687, which was passed 12 years ago. Fifteen weeks after 1441, Saddam's response has been neither full, nor active, nor immediate. He has not complied, and not a single member of the Security Council says otherwise. In place of active voluntary co-operation, we have had a string of cynically timed concessions that are calculated to divide and to delay.
We saw more token concessions last night. According to the newspapers, Iraq has now told Dr. Blix that it has—and I quote—"found" a bomb. Iraq has found a bomb containing biological agents—it simply popped up from some gooseberry bush. Some will be tempted to regard this as evidence that Saddam is being successfully contained, and that the inspectors should be given

271
endless time. However, this latest "find" is the same old game of dribbling out small concessions at the last minute.
Mr. Andrew Robathan rose—
Mr. George Galloway rose—
Malcolm Bruce rose—
Mr. Straw: It is completely ludicrous for the Iraqi regime to talk of "finding" weapons of mass destruction, as if it were someone else who made a 12,000-word declaration, claiming that the country had no weapons of mass destruction.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. Straw: The conclusion—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. Does the Secretary of State wish to give way?
Mr. Straw: I have given way to serious people on both sides of the House.
Sir Robert Smith: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: I am sure that this is not a point of order, but I must listen.
Sir Robert Smith: I seek the advice of the Chair on whether it is in order for the Government to table at this late stage a business motion to suspend the 7 o'clock deadline, which would allow the Secretary of State time to take interventions.
Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for the Chair.
Mr. Straw: The conclusion that we ought to draw from this overnight admission by Iraq is that we are right to say that it does have weapons of mass destruction, that it has lied about them, that it has tried to hide them, and that it is determined to keep them behind a charade of cynical concessions. Unless we bring this game to a halt, it will go on for as long as Saddam wants. I will not be surprised if, by the end of the week, Saddam is offering concessions on the proscribed al-Samoud missiles—having said that he will never destroy a single one—in the hope, once again, of playing for time. However, if the words "final opportunity", in operative paragraph 2 of resolution 1441, have any meaning, it is that this time we must not let Saddam lure the international community into endless indecision. Resolution 1441 called for disarmament "immediately". We have waited 110 days already, which is stretching the meaning of "immediately" to breaking point.
I ask our friends in France and Germany—who share our goal of Iraqi disarmament, and who fully support resolution 1441—why Saddam is more likely to cooperate actively, fully and immediately in the further
272
120 days that they now propose than he was in the past 110. What does he need 120 days for: to have a look for the weapons that he says he has not got, in case he has overlooked something; to search the homes of scientists for the incriminating papers that he ordered them to hide there; to tell those scientists to attend interviews and tell the truth that, through intimidation, he has instructed them to conceal?
Mr. Robathan: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Straw: I shall give way in one second.
No. Saddam would use a further 120 days to bring the authority of the United Nations lower week by week, to tie the weapons inspectors in knots, and to create further divisions within the international community. We know that this is what he will do, because it is what he has always done.
Joan Ruddock: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Straw: I shall also give way to my hon. Friend in a moment.
Worse, this delay would send Saddam the clearest possible signal that his strategy is succeeding. It would tell him that the international community lacks the will to disarm him, and it would tell all those who threaten our security that Saddam Hussein has broken the United Nations as an instrument for defending peace through the force of international law.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. Straw: I give way to the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan).
Mr. Robathan: The Foreign Secretary is making a most powerful speech, but in the light of everything that he and the Prime Minister have said, can he clarify for the House, for the people of Britain, who are confused, and for the members of our armed forces, who may be about to lay their lives on the line for this policy, whether there are any circumstances in which this crisis can be resolved with Saddam Hussein's being allowed to remain in power? Is it not a fact that our objective is, and has to be, regime change in Iraq?
Mr. Straw: There are such circumstances, as it happens, and the important point is this. We are committed to implementation of 1441. I do not like the Saddam Hussein regime—I regard it as one of the most revolting and terrible regimes in the world—but the focus of 1441 is not regime change per se, but the disarmament of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction.
In his statement yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister spelled out that if there is full, active and immediate compliance by Saddam Hussein with the full terms of 1441 and the other resolutions referred to, Saddam would remain in government, but his power would be greatly reduced because those weapons of mass destruction would have been removed.
Joan Ruddock: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. On the question of timing and taking a decision, can he tell me why half the UN staff involved in the oil-for-food programme have been withdrawn?
Mr. Straw: I cannot tell my hon. Friend directly, but I am happy to look into the matter. They certainly have

273
not been withdrawn on any advice given by us. I have been involved in discussions with the Secretary-General of the United Nations about the humanitarian crisis that has existed in Iraq for the past 12 years, and about the circumstances that would arise if military action had to be taken. All the Security Council partners are of course concerned about that issue, and so is the Secretary-General.
Ann Clwyd: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Straw: No. With the greatest of respect, I have given way a good deal.[Interruption.] I am sorry; I would love to give way, because I always enjoy doing so.
Time is pressing, so let me turn to the next question, which in many ways is at the heart of the amendment. Why not persist with the policy of containment, rather than contemplate military action? After all, some argue that Iraq has not invaded any of its neighbours or used chemical and biological weapons in the past 12 years, and that these weapons have either been destroyed, or do not present a sufficient threat to Iraq's neighbours or to the wider world to justify the use of force to remove them if Saddam refuses to do so peacefully.
I understand the containment argument, even if I do not agree with it. However, let no one be under any illusions: the policy of containment is not the policy of disarmament as set out in resolution 1441 or any of the preceding resolutions. There can be no stable, steady state for Iraq unless it is properly disarmed, and nor can there be stability for the region and the international community. What may appear to be containment to us is rearmament for Saddam.
We do not need to speculate on this, as we have witnessed it. A de facto policy of containment existed between 1998 and 2002 following the effective expulsion of inspectors by Iraq, and Iraq's refusal to comply with resolution 1284.
Far from keeping a lid on Saddam's ambitions, that period allowed him to rebuild his horrific arsenal, his chemical and biological weapons, and the means of delivering them against his enemies at home and abroad. UNMOVIC inspectors chart in their recent reports, which are before the House, how Iraq has refurbished prohibited equipment that had previously been destroyed by UNSCOM, the earlier inspectors. That equipment included rocket motor casting chambers and chemical processors. UNMOVIC has also found that Iraq used the four-year absence of inspectors—the so-called period of containment—to build a missile test stand capable of testing engines with over four times the thrust of the already prohibited al-Samoud 2 missile. All this happened during containment. There is no steady state—the choice is between disarmament or rearmament.
Thankfully, the so-called policy of containment ended on 8 November last year. Containment requires a degree of trust in Saddam that we cannot risk and which runs contrary to all the evidence. It means leaving Saddam as a standing example that defiance pays. We cannot allow Saddam further time and space to
274
strengthen his capabilities and to rearm further. Only disarmament—the aim of all these UN Security Council resolutions—can deal with this issue.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. Straw: I turn now to the next question. I am often asked, "Isn't the west guilty of double standards, especially in relation to Israel and Palestine?" [HON MEMBERS: "Yes."] Some of my hon. Friends say yes. I accept, as does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, that there has been a considerable amount to this charge, and to the perception of double standards, which extends well beyond the Arab and Islamic world. However, we deal with this charge not by ignoring outstanding UN obligations, but by working even harder to see all of them implemented. The key ones on Israel/Palestine—242, 338, 1397—impose obligations on three sets of parties—on the Palestinians to end terrorism, on the Arab countries to end support for terrorism and to recognise the state of Israel, and on Israel fully to co-operate in the establishment of a viable state of Palestine with borders broadly based on those of 1967.
Llew Smith:rose—
Mr. Neil Gerrard rose—
Jeremy Corbyn rose—
Mr. Straw: In difficult circumstances, we are working actively to implement this UN policy, including the early publication of the roadmap.
Mrs. Cheryl Gillan:rose—
Dr. Jenny Tonge rose—
Richard Burden rose—
Mr. Straw: I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden).
Richard Burden: I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way, and I welcome the Government's efforts to restart the peace process. However, the allegations and anger about double standards are not only to do with the lack of talks. They arise from the fact that, when a house in Gaza is destroyed, perhaps with the people in it, the destruction has probably been caused by an F-16. That aeroplane has probably been supplied by the US and may have parts supplied by Britain. Moreover, when the olive grove is destroyed, the destruction is probably carried out by a bulldozer bankrolled from the US. If we are to avoid the allegation of double standards, we must get talks going, and ensure that UN resolutions are upheld and respected.
Mr. Straw: As my hon. Friend knows, I entirely agree with that. We have to ensure the full application of international law by Israel, and—as I have told our friends in the Palestinian authority—we have to ensure as well that the Palestinians take even further action to stop the terrorist organisations in their areas. There is no

275
alternative to that. The Arab states must also end giving terrorist organisations active support, finance and supplies.
Llew Smith rose—
Mr. Gerrard rose—
Jeremy Corbyn rose—
Mrs. Gillan rose—
Dr. Tonge rose—
Mr. Straw: All those things must happen, but we are committed to ensuring the implementation of the Security Council resolutions in respect of Israel and Palestine.
Mr. Gerrard rose—
Jeremy Corbyn rose—
Mrs. Gillan rose—
Mr. Straw: In difficult circumstances—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The Foreign Secretary does not appear to be giving way.
Mr. Straw: We are working actively to implement this UN policy, including the early publication of the roadmap.
It must also never be forgotten, however, that the obligations on Saddam are singular, unilateral, and not for negotiation by him. We increase, not undermine, respect for the authority of the UN as a whole—and the prospects of a peace settlement in the middle east—if we implement fully the resolutions on Iraq, and do not shy away from their consequences.
Mr. Gerald Kaufman: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Straw: No, as I am coming to my closing remarks.
Mr. Kaufman: Will my right hon. Friend give way specifically on this matter?
Mr. Straw: I will.
Mr. Kaufman: I thank my right hon. Friend. I think that the House will concede that I have been as outspoken as any hon. Member in condemning Israeli policy, and I shall continue to be outspoken on the matter. Given that, does my right hon. Friend agree that anyone who believes that Saddam Hussein gives a twopenny damn for the Palestinians, the Kurds or the Marsh Arabs is living in self-delusion?
Mr. Straw: As ever, I agree with my right hon. Friend. I knew that it was a wise move to give way to him.
276
International terrorism and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction are the crucial strategic questions of our time. Our answer to these threats will determine the stability of the world for decades to come. This is an awesome responsibility. It calls for courageous leadership. And it requires the vision and foresight to act decisively and, if necessary, with military force.
Once Saddam's invasion of Kuwait had been turned back by the international community, the international community, with our agreement, put on hold the military option, preferring of course to resolve the continuing crisis peacefully, first through weapons inspections and then, from December 1998, through a policy of containment. However, neither of those approaches has worked.
Following the adoption of resolution 1441, Saddam has now to be under no illusions that there will be no further resolutions calling for containment, no further attempts to tinker at the margins rather than to remove his weapons. This has to be a moment of choice for Saddam and for the Iraqi regime.
Mr. Robert Marshall-Andrews rose—
Chris McCafferty rose—
Mr. Straw: However, it is also a moment of choice for the UN. As I told the Security Council on 5 February, the UN's pre-war predecessor, the League of Nations, had the same fine ideals as the UN. Yet the League failed because it could not create actions from its words: it could not back diplomacy with a credible threat and, where necessary, the use of force. Small evils therefore went unchecked, tyrants became emboldened, then greater evils were unleashed. At each stage good men and women said, "Not now, wait, the evil is not big enough to challenge." Then before their eyes, the evil became too big to challenge. We had slipped slowly down a slope, never noticing how far we had gone until it was too late. We owe it to our history as well as to our future not to make the same mistake again.
This is the hardest issue that I have ever had to deal with. I know that it causes very great anxiety to the British people and to Members of this House. It does to all of us. However, the issue of what we do about tyrannical states with poison gases, nerve agents, viruses and nuclear ambitions, and which defy international law and the principles of the UN, will not go away. We have to face the issue. We have to give Saddam Hussein a categorical choice, and after 12 long years he has to give us his answer now.
I commend the motion to the House.
1.17 pm
Mr. Michael Ancram: The Opposition support this motion. In many ways, it is a rerun of the debate in this House on 25 November last year, in which we also supported the Government motion. This motion poses no new questions or challenges. We have therefore tabled no amendment.
None of us wants war. For those of us who have spent a significant part of our political lives working to establish peace, it is a desperately sad prospect. However, sometimes conflict is necessary in the short

277
term to achieve peace through the defeat of aggression, and sometimes it is the threat of conflict that can establish peace.
The current situation that exists in Iraq today is not peace. It is conflict waiting in the wings. It has been there for the past 12 years. As the Foreign Secretary has pointed out, that is what containment has meant. To prolong it in the absence of genuine disarmament would be to prolong the uncertainty and suffering of the people of Iraq. It would leave the conflict and the crisis unresolved. It would also send a message to Saddam Hussein that the urgent requirement to disarm was no longer urgent, that the determination to secure immediate compliance with resolution 1441 was no longer immediate. It would not be peace. It would be the procrastination of a conflict that would be more vicious and more damaging when eventually it came.
Mr. Harry Barnes: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Ancram: I will give way in a moment, but I want to make a few introductory remarks.
I believe that the Prime Minister's last push for peace is important. It is the language that Saddam Hussein understands. It is based on the clear understanding that Saddam Hussein only begins to comply when his feet are held to the flames and the heat begins to take effect. Equally, it is based on the knowledge that, the moment the heat is turned off, he returns to his old threatening ways, as we have heard from the Foreign Secretary.
The peaceful disarming of Hussein may, in the event, not be possible, but I believe that it has been right to try to do it. The Foreign Secretary has painted a very pessimistic picture in that regard today, but we know that, if there is to be a peaceful outcome, it will happen only if the determination of the international community to resort to force if necessary is clear and unambiguous.
Saddam Hussein has always taken ambiguity as a sign of weakness, so the last push for peace depends on his understanding clearly that there is no way out other than to disarm, and that the final opportunity that the Security Council signed up to in resolution 1441 means precisely what it says.
Mr. Edward Leigh: Does my right hon. Friend agree that public opinion would be greatly reassured if Her Majesty's Government undertook to ensure that, before UK and US troops attacked Iraq, a specific resolution authorising war was tabled to the Security Council, and that a specific resolution was put before the House of Commons as well?
Mr. Ancram: If my hon. Friend checks the resolutions that are already before the House in the Command Paper, he will find that there is plenty of cover in every one of them.[Interruption.] I will come to the reason why I say that in a moment because it is very important; but we have supported the idea that a substantive motion should be put before the House, and we have
278
also supported the second resolution before the UN because, although we do not believe it to be legally necessary, it is desirable to have it.
Mr. Barnes rose—
Mr. Peter Kilfoyle: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Ancram: I will in a moment.
I want to ask whether the Government have asked France—politely, of course—what it understands by the phrase "final opportunity". I took the trouble to look up the French version of resolution 1441, and it talks about the "dernière possibilityé". Although my French may be a little rusty, I believe that both phrases mean exactly the same thing. The French signed up to resolution 1441, but when I saw their counter-proposal, which they tabled on Monday, it seems anything but final in the proposals and demands it makes. It must give Saddam Hussein a very real hope that he might just get away with it once again, and with his weapons intact.
I hope that France and those who are tempted to support her position will think very clearly about the importance of the message that they signed up to in resolution 1441, as it is crucial to the last push for peace. It is worth recalling that the Arab League, the European Union and every member of the Security Council, as well as all the parties in the House, expressed their support for resolution 1441.
Mr. Kilfoyle: A few moments ago, the right hon. Gentleman said that it was the Conservative party's policy to seek a substantive motion in the eventuality of hostilities breaking out. Will he confirm whether that substantive motion would be tabled in the House before the commencement of hostilities, not after?
Mr. Ancram: We in the Opposition will obviously not be as aware as the Government are of when military action is likely to start. We have made it clear that, ideally, we would like that to happen before any such action, but there may be circumstances—the hon. Gentleman was a Defence Minister, so he must know this—where military action, for all sorts of security reasons, might have to begin before the House can debate it, and we should be very careful to do nothing that undermines the ability and security of our armed forces by setting improper and unworkable conditions.
Mrs. Gillan: The concern in the country about any future action against Iraq runs right across all sectors of our community, not least among the 1.5 million Muslims who live in the United Kingdom. Will my right hon. Friend support me in a request to ask the Foreign Secretary whether he will meet Dr. Siddiqui—my constituent and the leader of the Muslim Parliament of Great Britain—to listen to the views of those Muslims as expressed through the Muslim Parliament?
Mr. Ancram: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for having raised that issue. The Foreign Secretary will have heard what she said, but it is vital in the days and weeks ahead that hon. Members on both sides of the House

279
continue to make it clear that this is a conflict not with Islam, but with a gangster who has weapons of mass destruction and who needs to be dealt with.
Today's debate will be one of deep but conflicting views. I have the greatest respect for those who hold strong and principled views on this difficult issue, even if those views may differ from mine, but I have no time for those who might seek to play politics with this issue, although it would have been easy to do so. It is far too serious for that. I also have very little time for those who have sought to face both ways. I look down the Benches to my left, at the leader of the Liberal Democrats. Yesterday and today, he criticised what he called the pre-emptive draft resolution. Is this the leader of a party which, ever since resolution 1441 was passed, has insisted on a second resolution? Indeed, is this the leader of a party whose foreign affairs spokesman, the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Mr. Campbell), told the House last year that
"legally, no new resolution is required for the use of force to implement resolution 687."
He went on to say
"that from a political and diplomatic point of view, a new United Nations resolution is essential".—[Official Report, 24 September 2002; Vol. 390, c. 43–44.]s
Well, he was talking not about a second resolution, but about the resolution that turned out to be 1441, which he had already said was not legally required for force to be used. It really is time that the Liberal Democrats decided what their position on such resolutions is. Is this the party leader who told the recent anti-war rally that he would not support military action without a second UN resolution, only two weeks after his defence spokesman, the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Keetch), when asked, in my presence, whether he would feel bound by a second resolution endorsing military action announced that his party's foreign policy would not be dictated by the UN? What a tangled web! The House has a right to know the clear and unambiguous position of the Liberal Democrats, and I hope that we will hear it today.
Mr. Paul Marsden: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Ancram: No, I will give way to the hon. Member for Hereford if he wishes to explain what he meant when he was talking to all those students the other day.
Mr. Paul Keetch: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that invitation. It simply demonstrates why the official Opposition are so concerned about the Liberal Democrats: this party has been calling for support for our troops in the Gulf. As for what I said during Westminster Day, it has never been the case that the UN is the sole repository of international law. Indeed, if we had waited for a UN resolution, we would not have deployed troops into Kosovo—an action by the Government that this party rightly supported.
Hon. Members: More.
Mr. Ancram: I am even more confused about the Liberal Democrat position than I was before the hon.
280
Gentleman intervened, but it is absolutely clear that they behave like weather vanes: every time the wind changes, they change direction, too.
Mr. Kaufman: The right hon. Gentleman asked the Liberal Democrats to have a clear and unambiguous position on this issue. Is he aware that, if the Liberal Democrats had a clear and unambiguous position on this issue, it would be the only issue, ranging from street lighting to council tax, on which they had such a position?
Mr. Ancram: I accept from the right hon. Gentleman that what I said was the triumph of hope over experience.
Mr. Simon Thomas: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Ancram: No. I want to make further progress because many hon. Members wish to speak.
Mr. Paul Marsden rose—
Mr. Simon Thomas: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. Ancram: Many hon. Members have genuine fears and concerns, and the Government must take them seriously. I have to tell the Foreign Secretary that the public have been confused too often by the changing focus of the Government's arguments. It is now time they clarified their objectives and made the case more clearly.
All that I can do is set out my position and that of my colleagues. I believe that Iraq poses a threat to international peace and security, and, therefore, to us. That is why we support the Government today. The UN believes that Iraq poses a continuing threat to international peace and security, which is why 17 resolutions, including 1441, have been passed under chapter VII of the UN charter, which deals specifically with threats to the peace and permits military action. That was the point that I made when the matter was raised earlier. The draft resolution tabled on Monday in the UN Security Council refers specifically to chapter VII. The threat flows neither from the evil of Saddam Hussein nor from the existence of weapons of mass destruction, but from the combination of the two.
Mr. Simon Thomas rose—
Mr. Ancram: Other countries have weapons of mass destruction but they manage them responsibly. There are other evil and murderous leaders, but they do not possess weapons of mass destruction, nor have they shown readiness to use them even against their own people. Saddam in possession of weapons of mass destruction is, in the eyes of the United Nations—not just in the eyes of the House or of those on these Front Benches—a present and current threat to international peace and security. We would fail the people whom we represent if we were to turn a blind eye to that.
Mr. Andrew Tyrie: Does my right hon. Friend not accept that the disparity between the

281
treatment being meted out to Iraq and that being meted out to North Korea sends a worrying signal to all countries who fear that they will be bullied by the United States? Is not it a cause for concern that everyone in the world is seeing North Korea being treated with kid gloves while Iraq is treated with an iron fist? Is that not an invitation to all other countries that are threatened to try to obtain nuclear weapons?
Mr. Ancram: No. I understand what my hon. Friend is saying, but I was in China last week and I talked to the Chinese Foreign Minister, about North Korea in particular. The point was made to me—this is an important distinction—that whereas Iraq has been subject for many years to mandatory resolutions, North Korea has until recently been abiding by agreements that had been made. What is happening in North Korea is a matter of great concern, but we must be absolutely clear that to confuse that with what is happening in Iraq would be dangerous in terms of the consequences that could follow.
Mr. Simon Thomas rose—
Mr. Barnes rose—
Mr. Ancram: I shall give way to the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas).
Mr. Thomas: The right hon. Gentleman has just advanced two reasons for his party's support for military action, if necessary, in Iraq: first, the weapons of mass destruction that are likely to be present in that country; and secondly, the nature of the regime. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman was present in the House—the Foreign Secretary certainly was—when the Secretary of State for International Development said that it was illegal, and not permitted under international law, for one country to seek the removal of another country's leader. If his party's policy relies on that argument, it is doing a gross disservice to the people of this country.
Mr. Ancram: The hon. Gentleman has not considered the matter fully. What is clear, as we have made plain for some time, is that a sole objective of regime change would be outwith the bounds of international law. But that is not the case in this instance. We are seeking the removal and elimination of weapons of mass destruction that are a threat because they are in the hands of a gangster who uses them not only to threaten his own people but, as we know, to threaten the countries around him. That is why the United Nations believes that he poses a threat to international security and peace.
I understand the doubts that are expressed about whether we have sufficient evidence to proceed in the direction that the Government have outlined. It would help to meet doubts, of course, if weapons of mass destruction could be disclosed or discovered now. I continue to hope that, as far as is consistent with maintaining the integrity and security of our intelligence, the Government may yet produce more tangible evidence than they have done so far. What we know already, however, is that the elements of such weapons of mass destruction and the programmes for
282
developing them existed in 1999 when the last team of UN inspectors had to leave Iraq. We heard details from the Prime Minister yesterday of the spine-chilling extent and nature of those weapons: the anthrax, the nerve agents and the thousands of special munitions. We know from UNSCOM and from previous Iraqi declarations—let us not forget that—that those weapons were there then. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we must believe that they are there now. It is not for the inspectors to prove that they are still there; it is for Iraq to demonstrate credibly that they are not. That is not my demand: Hans Blix made it clear on 27 January, and set it more broadly as the test as to whether Saddam Hussein was genuinely seeking to comply with resolution 1441.
Angus Robertson rose—
Mr. Ancram: Although we have not found a smoking gun, we learned in the presentation made to the UN Security Council by Colin Powell on 5 February that there is a lot of smoke. There is no killer fact, but there are vast amounts of circumstantial evidence that the elements of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles are still there and are still being developed. Those are weapons which, in malign hands, can threaten us directly. As a lawyer, I do not underestimate the importance of such evidence, and those who do are gambling with our future security.
Angus Robertson rose—
Mr. Ancram: We supported resolution 1441 because it gave Saddam Hussein a final opportunity to comply or face serious consequences. He has not taken that opportunity. He has failed to comply with and co-operate fully in the implementation of that resolution. For that reason, we support the draft second resolution, because it makes clear that when the UN Security Council says that non-compliance will lead to serious consequences, it means what it says.
Mr. Marshall-Andrews rose—
Mr. Ancram: My colleagues and I want peace. We see military action as a last resort. That is why we will support the Government in the Lobby tonight. We do not see tonight's vote as the final say of this House on this matter, however, and nor should it be. We will also want a further debate on a substantive motion at the first practical opportunity should military action become necessary. I welcome the undertaking that the Foreign Secretary has given in that regard.
In the interim, however, we need greater clarity on a number of important issues. We need more clarity on the timetable. At what moment will the second resolution be put to the vote? Will the Foreign Secretary confirm that Hans Blix will have reported to the UN Security Council before any vote is taken? That is an important point, to which he may wish to respond now.
Mr. Straw: The answer to that is yes. Dr. Blix is in charge of his reports, not us. He is due to make a report to the Security Council under the provisions of

283
resolution 1284, which is his basic authority, on Friday 28 February. I understand that there will be a further report at some stage next week, before any vote.
Mr. Ancram: I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary for that clarification, which will reassure many people. Although I do not have a suspicious mind, will he also say what efforts the Government are making to win the backing of the Security Council, including the three African members, Guinea, Cameroon and Angola, whom the French Government entertained royally in Paris last week?
Mr. Straw: As will be expected, we are in active discussion with all our partners in the Security Council. As it happens, the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my noble Friend Baroness Amos, is currently visiting the Cameroons, Guinea and Angola.
Mr. Ancram: I am relieved to hear that.
Given that it is accepted by all that Saddam Hussein is not complying and is not showing the change of attitude that Hans Blix was seeking, what further information—perhaps this will be answered by the Minister in his winding-up speech—will be required to trigger or justify a postponement of a vote? Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that a last-minute agreement by Saddam Hussein to dismantle his illegal missiles will not be enough? I think that that was what the Prime Minister was implying yesterday, but we would like some clarity on the matter.
Mr. Marshall-Andrews: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question that I would have asked the Secretary of State had I been given half a chance? I will put it to the right hon. Gentleman as he may well have information that Labour Members do not. If the weapons inspectors report that Saddam Hussein is complying with their demands, but it is revealed that the original Iraqi declaration was false and misleading, will it be the position of the Opposition that that would legitimise war?
Mr. Ancram: I was in the United Nations when Hans Blix reported on 27 January. The test that he set is correct—that Saddam Hussein must show that his attitude has changed and that he is prepared to comply directly with the requirements of resolution 1441. That is not a question of time; it is a question of attitude. Hans Blix will be able to report on whether what is happening in Iraq convinces him that such a change of attitude has taken place.
Mr. John Bercow: My right hon. Friend has rightly highlighted the danger of cynical, last-minute gestures by Saddam that are designed purely to save his own skin. Given that Saddam has demonstrated over a long period that he is a mass murderer and a compulsive liar, would my right hon. Friend agree that, in practice, the elimination of weapons of mass destruction will also require the removal of Saddam and his hated regime?
Mr. Ancram: We are all aware that, unless Saddam Hussein decides voluntarily to disarm, the likely
284
outcome of the removal of weapons of mass destruction will be the removal of Saddam Hussein. That brings me on to my next point, and I will take no more interventions because I know that many hon. Members want to speak in this debate.
My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition asked yesterday for information on contingency planning for the administration of Iraq after Saddam. I asked for such information as long ago as September. It is of grave concern that such information has not been forthcoming. With potential military action imminent, it is incredible that such contingency planning is not well advanced—although we were told yesterday that it was being discussed in the United Nations. We must be assured that there is no question of a long-term military administration and that early steps will be taken to see in place an administration that represents the interests and concerns of all parts of Iraq and all factions within it.
A key objective must be the preservation of the integrity of the sovereign state of Iraq. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that any break-up of Iraq would create enormous tensions and instability in the region? Does he also agree that, unlike Afghanistan, Iraq has a highly educated population and a suppressed but strong middle class? Within a relatively short period, it should be possible to establish a stable, representative and effective administration in Baghdad.
We need to know more about contingency plans for ensuring that immediate, adequate and effective humanitarian aid is available to the people of Iraq. That prospect would do much to reassure people in Iraq and the region, should military action prove necessary. The Secretary of State for International Development has shown a marked reluctance to come to the House to talk about this—she is not even in her seat today. I hope that the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. O'Brien) will give us some information when he replies to this debate.
Mr. Straw: With great respect, the Secretary of State for International Development has been extremely concerned about this issue and very forward in telling the House what she is doing about it. To my certain knowledge—because I heard her say it between 11.30 am and 12 noon today—she has spelled out what she is doing and the work in which she is involved.
Mr. Ancram: I have to admit that I was not here for that, but for a very good reason. My hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Duncan), who spoke on my behalf, tells me that he received no information from the Secretary of State for International Development, other than a stream of abuse.
There is another important question on which we need reassurance. Everything that we are being asked to support is on the basis of the existence of weapons of mass destruction. We are told that they are well hidden. Are there contingency plans to ensure that, in the event of the toppling of Saddam Hussein, such material does not fall into the hands of terrorists or weapons dealers, or simply remain as a hidden arsenal that will be available to others in future? Even if we cannot be given the details, can we be reassured that clear plans exist to

285
ensure that weapons of mass destruction and programmes to develop them will be well and truly eliminated by whatever action is taken?
I welcome what the Foreign Secretary has said about progress on the other area of concern in the region—the nearer middle east. It is essential for the reassurance of other countries in the region that that issue is not put to one side during the next few weeks.
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown rose—
Mr. Ancram: If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will not give way. I really must draw my remarks to a close.
This is one of the most serious debates to be held in this House for many years. The Prime Minister faces momentous decisions in the days and weeks ahead. We have always made it clear that, so long as he is acting in the national interest, we will support him. That support has never been unconditional. We have been critical from time to time of the Government's failure to set out its case properly.
Mr. Paul Marsden rose—
Mr. Clifton-Brown rose—
Mr. Ancram: Some crucial questions remain to be answered and I have sought to pose them today. Most important is to do what is right. No international crisis is ever simple. No international questions are ever black and white. What is right and moral is sometimes difficult to discern. As I am sure we shall hear in this debate, matters are open to different interpretations. However, I am clear in my mind that, in the light of what we know, the direction and position of the Government in relation to this crisis is right. That is why, although it is not always the most comfortable or easy course, I believe that we owe the Government our support today. In the interests of the long-term security of our people, that is right. I urge my hon. Friends and right hon. Friends to support the motion.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. I remind all right hon. Members and hon. Members that M r. Speaker has imposed an eight-minute time limit on all Back-Bench speeches.
1.46 pm
Mr. Chris Smith: I beg to move, To leave out from "destruction" to end and add
"but finds the case for military action against Iraq as yet unproven."
The amendment stands in my name and the names of 115 hon. Members and right hon. Members from all sides of this House. Let us make no mistake. The Government motion before us talks—rightly—of the United Nations process. I welcome that. However, if the Government motion is passed unamended by this House, a signal will have been given that this House endorses the timetable that is now upon us—which will lead, I fear, inexorably to war within the next three to four weeks.
286
Three main arguments appear to be mounted in support of early military intervention in Iraq. The first is: "They have had the time to comply: they don't need more time." Actually, Iraq has had 11 weeks since the weapons inspectors went in this time round. Let us not forget that, from 1991 to 1996–97, the weapons inspection process produced substantial results. Substantial amounts of chemical and biological warfare capacity were destroyed by the process. I would argue that a strongly supported weapons inspection process—one that is given the time to complete the job—is what the international community should be arguing for.
Jim Knight rose—
Mr. Smith: I have only eight minutes, so I will carry on.
The second argument is that there has not been full and complete co-operation with the weapons inspection process. That is true. However, there has been a substantial amount of co-operation. Are we seriously saying that, because Saddam Hussein has complied by 70 per cent. rather than 100 per cent., that is a cause for going to war?
Mr. Straw: There is no basis whatsoever—from any sentence of the Blix reports or any other evidence—for saying that Saddam has complied by 70 per cent. or by any fraction approaching that.
Mr. Smith: I have to disagree with my right hon. Friend. Everyone agrees that Saddam Hussein has not given full co-operation and is not complying completely. However, in such a situation, we must ask ourselves whether the degree of co-operation that he has given and which has undoubtedly been extorted out of him by the pressure from the international community falls so far short of what is required that it is a cause for going in and wreaking substantial havoc and destruction on Iraq. That case, as yet, is not made.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. Smith: The third major argument that is used is that we will give comfort to Saddam Hussein by sending the wrong message. That is true only if we fail to maintain the pressure on him. There may well be a time for military action. I do not take the view that military action is never, ever likely to be required. There may well be a time when it becomes necessary.
Kali Mountford rose—
Mr. Smith: At the moment, the timetable appears to be determined by the decision of the President of the United States and not by the logic of events.
The other argument that has been made is that those of us who urge caution are failing to be strong and that, by doing so, we are somehow appeasing a tyrant. That is the shallowest argument of all. Strength does not lie simply in military might. Strength lies in having an unanswerable case. It lies in making the right moral choices. It lies in maintaining the pressure, and it lies in securing the fullest possible international agreement.

287
That is where our efforts should now be directed, but I fear that we may be cutting short those efforts by the timetable that is now upon us.
Kali Mountford rose—
Mr. Smith: Let us not forget what we are talking about. We are talking about going to war. We are talking about thousands—possibly hundreds of thousands—of innocent lives being lost. We are talking about casualties almost inevitably among our own forces. We are talking about instability across the whole middle east. We are talking about making the achievement of a solution to the Israel/Palestine question infinitely more difficult. We are talking about the alienation of moderate Muslim opinion across the world. One does not undertake such things lightly. One must have the clearest possible reasons for doing them, and I do not believe that those reasons are there.
This may be the last chance before our forces are committed to military action that the House has to make our view known. It grieves me that I am seeking to amend a motion tabled by my Government—a Government whom I applaud and support. However, these are serious times and the House must make a serious judgment. We must say here today in this Chamber that now is not the time, that the case has yet to be fully made and that war, with all its consequences, cannot be the present answer.
Kali Mountford: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. For the ease of the debate and so that interventions are taken for debate to take place across the Floor of the House will you clarify that, when interventions are taken, time is added to the time allowed for the speeches?
Madam Deputy Speaker: I can confirm what the hon. Lady says. Taking up to two interventions provides an additional two minutes for the speaker.
1.54 pm
Mr. Michael Moore: In the previous debate on this topic, the Liberal Democrats tabled an amendment to the Government motion. We have done so again today and it sets out our party's position. There is no question but that we share the doubts expressed in the amendment tabled by the right hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith) and in his speech. We will support him and others in the Lobby. On the assumption that the amendment is not passed, we will vote against the Government's motion.
We welcome the opportunity that this debate provides to discuss the critical issues facing the country. After three months and repeated requests for a debate, it has been a long time coming. However, it comes at a key moment in the development of the international situation.
We must send out an absolutely clear message. Saddam Hussein must be disarmed and his evil regime with it. Nobody disputes that. The question for us is how we go about that. Throughout the process, we have
288
supported the United Nations and urged our Government and the United States of America to work through it. The international community is taking on Saddam Hussein because he defies international law, so it is absolutely essential that, as we tackle him, we follow the United Nations route; otherwise we will undermine the very principles and institutions in whose name we act.
It has not always been clear that that the United States of America has recognised that requirement. Even in the past 24 hours, the United States President has restated his belief that a second resolution against Iraq is not required before military action can begin. That is a lonely view in the world but, sadly, an important one.
We acknowledge the United Kingdom's role in persuading the United States Administration to pursue their case via the United Nations in the first place. However, all of us must be concerned about the threats made to members of the Security Council if they ignore America's will, and concerned that, if they do, the United States will go its own way.
Dr. Julian Lewis rose—
Mr. Moore: In similar vein, the Prime Minister has introduced the concept of an "unreasonable veto". This, too, is a dangerous notion. Will it allow other permanent members of the United Nations Security Council to disregard a future use of the British veto? This pick-and-mix approach to international diplomacy is bad for Britain and it is worse still for the international community.
There is no doubt that the possibility of military action has been the catalyst for the return of the weapons inspectors and for the co-operation received from the Iraqi regime so far as it goes. However, there must be a difference between getting the military forces ready and using them. Much of the anxiety in the public's mind at present is because the United States' and the United Kingdom's rhetoric suggests that, once the build-up is complete, the military will go into action. Many fear that there is an unstoppable momentum towards war that is accentuated by the attempt to force the pace with a new draft resolution. Never mind the United States Administration's ambivalence about the role of the UN and even the need for a second resolution. We must have a credible threat of force, but not a certain threat of force; otherwise the international order has everything to lose and Saddam Hussein has nothing to gain except by pre-emptive action of his own.
Kali Mountford: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, but is his point not inconsistent? How can there be a credible threat to Iraq if we make it clear at the outset that the threat is not credible because we are not prepared to use it? Is that not an inconsistent position?
Mr. Moore: That is not what I was saying. If the hon. Lady will bear with me and listen to the rest of my case, I hope that that will become absolutely clear to her.
International law is clear that war can only ever be justified as a last resort. In upholding it, we must show conclusively that that is so and that we will go to war

289
only if all other diplomatic and political options have been exhausted. That is far from being the case at this point.
The current action against Saddam is justified by resolution 1441. The resolution was a supreme effort of international diplomacy that took eight weeks of patient negotiation. It was unanimously agreed and was all the stronger for that. It put a clear onus on Saddam, marked out the fact that this was his final opportunity, and gave a warning in respect of further material breaches and the serious consequences that would flow from them. Saddam Hussein must know that that involves the real possibility of military action, but we do not believe that the current resolution that was drafted and put before the United Nations is sufficient to justify any such development.
The weapons inspectors are the key to dealing with Saddam. They have got clear instructions; indeed, they could not be more specific. So far, the outcomes have been mixed, co-operation has been patchy and the inspectors have not been helped by the slow build-up in their resources and numbers, but can anybody doubt their seriousness, purpose or independence? It is their judgment that is crucial in this debate. Overnight, we have seen the release of new information—an important development that would suggest that the regime is cooperating with them—but we face an early test this weekend regarding the al-Samoud missile system and Iraq's willingness to dismantle it. Overall, this is a finely judged case, but in the circumstances, we must surely listen to the chief inspector when he says:
"Eight years of inspections, four of no inspections, then 11 weeks and call it a day? It's a little short".
Mr. John Wilkinson: Does the hon. Gentleman not realise that this is a case not so much of the al-Samoud missiles, which are the delivery system, as of the nerve and biological agents that could be delivered? Those agents could be delivered by all sorts of other means, including manned aircraft and many others. Merely to focus on one particular aspect of the offensive capability of the Iraqi regime is wholly naïve.
Mr. Moore: I appeal to the hon. Gentleman to listen carefully to what I am saying. I was not saying that the requirement was the only one with which Saddam must comply, but I pointed out that it was an important test of his willingness to comply. It is for the chief inspector and his colleagues to judge this matter. The chief inspector has said that he should be able to reach that judgment within months—not hours or days, but months. He must be given sufficient time.
Angus Robertson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the interview given by Dr. Hans Blix to Die Zeit newspaper? In the interview, which will be published tomorrow, he appeals again to be allowed a number of months to complete his task. Should not the international community listen to his advice and give him some months to complete that task?
Mr. Moore: Alas, I am not as well connected with the editorial desks of foreign newspapers as the hon. Gentleman, but I will take his word for it. His intervention reinforces the point that 1 was making: the
290
inspection regime needs a number of months to carry out its work and we should not be short-circuiting it at this point.
Prior to the passing of resolution 1441, we relied on containment and deterrents to look after Saddam.
Phil Hope: It is hard to understand the Liberal position. First, we heard the hon. Gentleman's party leader saying at the "stop the war" demonstration that he did not support the war, but the Liberal Democrats' amendment says that they would support war if it were sanctioned by a resolution of the United Nations Security Council. What is their position?
Secondly, is it not the case that, if the United Nations passes a second resolution, the Liberal Democrats would support military action against Iraq within weeks, not months, which contradicts what he has just said?
Mr. Moore: May I suggest that the hon. Gentleman not listen to what the spin doctors from Millbank, or wherever they are now located, say about what my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Inverness, West (Mr. Kennedy) has said. He said not that he was opposed to the war, but that we were in favour of resolving the situation through the United Nations and that war must be the last resort after all other options had been exhausted. That is a world away from the hon. Gentleman's characterisation.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. Moore: I am sorry, but I have given way numerous times and I intend to continue.
At this point, the weapons inspectors are still in Iraq and are still saying that they have a worthwhile job to do. In response to the draft resolution tabled by the British and American Governments, the French have offered an alternative, supported by Germany and Russia. It talks about needing a clear programme of action, reinforced inspections and timelines for inspection and assessment. The Foreign Secretary drew attention to the contrast between Iraq and South Africa, but surely one of the key differences is that, in South Africa, the very points that the French memorandum sets out—a clear programme and timelines for inspection—were contained in the inspection regime. We must not dismiss that out of hand, as the Government appear to have done.
If we are to proceed to war, we must be a lot clearer about what the objectives might be. There is currently an enormous lack of clarity. It is not clear whether war would be only for disarmament purposes or for regime change. The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have both referred to regime change in previous contributions. Those mixed messages do not instil confidence in the international community—
Mr. Bercow: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me to intervene on the subject of mixed messages?
Mr. Moore: Tempted as I am to draw attention to the mixed messages of the hon. Gentleman's party—some Opposition Members are signed up to the amendment while others are not, and Front Benchers who talked

291
previously about not needing a second resolution now favour one—it would be as well to leave the matter to one side.
Apart from the objectives, we must also reflect on the consequences of any action. The most important starting point will be the humanitarian aspects of the situation in Iraq and in neighbouring countries. As yet, it is not at all clear what humanitarian preparations the Government or international bodies are preparing for. In the context of the situation in Afghanistan, where the President has complained about lack of follow-up to the conflict that occurred there a couple of years ago, that issue is very worrying.
We must also not lose sight of the dangers in the middle east conflict and its potential to spill over in what is already a very sensitive and difficult time, as the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) made clear. As the right hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury put it, the prospect of upsetting and putting at risk the support of moderate Muslim opinion throughout the world is very serious and we must not overlook it. There are many things that we must sort out. In doing so, we must be clear what we are setting out to do.
Mr. Straw: Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House how many Muslims he thinks Saddam Hussein has killed?
Mr. Moore: With due respect to the Foreign Secretary, that is not the point at issue—[Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is on his feet responding to the intervention.
Mr. Moore: It is beyond doubt that Saddam Hussein's evil regime has murdered thousands of his fellow citizens. That is not the point. The point at issue is the consequence of any action in the middle east that is not supported by international resolutions. The Foreign Secretary must think very carefully about that.
Many things have got to be sorted out. In sorting them out, we must be clear about what we are setting out to do and how we will deal with the consequences. We are far from having reached that position at this point. It is important that, in due course, if there is to be a further resolution, we must have a debate in this House and a vote when UK armed forces are to be committed. At the key moment, when another UN resolution has been passed, that is absolutely vital. This debate cannot suffice.
We believe that the decision by the British, Americans and Spanish to table a new resolution at the United Nations is premature. All of us want to see the Iraqi regime disarmed and Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction destroyed.
Dr. Julian Lewis: That is like feeding the crocodiles.
Mr. Moore: Under the existing resolution, the weapons inspectors are carrying out a clear mandate to inspect and to report to the Security Council. They must be given sufficient time to carry out and to complete
292
their task. War can only be a last resort once all other political and diplomatic options have been exhausted. We have not reached that point. The case for war has not been made.
2.10 pm
Mr. George Foulkes: I will not repeat what the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary said so eloquently yesterday and today, but I want to put on record that I support my Government—not out of loyalty, although that is not a bad reason, but because I think that they are right, and I want to add a few points.
First, supporting the Government today does not mean that one is in favour of war. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, yes it does."] It does not mean that, as the media and—I was about to say idiots, but I had better not—Liberal Democrat Members say. War can be avoided by one simple act—Saddam Hussein complying with the resolutions of the United Nations. All the pressure—not just our pressure, but the pressure from everywhere—should be on Saddam Hussein, not on Blair and Bush. The pressure should be on Saddam Hussein to comply with the resolutions. I am no fan of President Bush, but the hyperbole of the attacks and the comparisons that he has suffered is incredible. That does no one's cause any good. The United Kingdom and United States Governments are working through the United Nations. We have heard that the weapons inspectors have found non-compliance on anthrax, on nerve agents and on long-range missiles. The evidence is now overwhelming, and we should be supporting the Government.
I do not doubt the sincerity of the majority of those who oppose Government policy, but I agree with the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) that the Liberals and, I would add, the Scottish National party, are attempting to use this issue—an issue of life and death—for party political purposes. As I said yesterday, that is irresponsible opportunism. They should be aware that Saddam Hussein is cleverly exploiting everything that they do, including my ex-right hon. Friend's patsy interview with him on television. I saw the marches that some of my colleagues took part in. They were reported with joy and glee on Iraqi television and they gave great succour to the dictator. I saw no placards on those marches saying, "Saddam must go". I saw no mention of the 2 million dead in the two wars, the Kurds who were gassed, the Iraqis who were exiled, or the hundreds of children who starve each day now because of Saddam Hussein's manipulation of the sanctions. Yet each day that passes without action to disarm Saddam Hussein means that more of those children will die and more members of the opposition will be persecuted. My colleagues should remember that there are consequences of inaction, as well as of action.
Simon Hughes: If the right hon. Gentleman reads the record, he will know that both sides of the House have condemned Saddam Hussein for years. Surely he understands that those of us who marched, and were proud to march, did so because we believe that when advisers to the Security Council—experts—say that they want more time and

293
that they might be able to achieve disarmament if they had it, that is a road to disarmament by peace that must be preferable to a road to disarmament by war.
Mr. Foulkes: The hon. Gentleman and those who support him are not just na?ve; they are being duped. They are also inconsistent, and I shall point to another inconsistency. Members on the Opposition Benches and others who oppose the deployment of troops now urge us to give more time to the inspectors, but the inspectors would not be there had we not deployed the troops, and we would not have deployed the troops if we had taken the advice of some Opposition Members. That credible deployment of force needs to be maintained and intensified to make Saddam Hussein realise and understand that we are serious.
In conclusion, I have repeatedly asked critics of Government policy—I have asked them here, I have asked those with whom I have appeared on the media, I have asked people in my constituency who come to see me—what credible way they propose to disarm a brutal dictator. I get no reply and no credible alternative. I therefore believe that we should support the Government. We are not here just as people to do the bidding of everyone who writes to us; we are here to make our own judgment about what is right and what is wrong. I think that the Government are right and that, as there is no credible alternative, we as elected representatives have a responsibility to go back to our constituencies to explain the Government's policy, to bring people along with us, to support the Government and to get rid of a brutal dictator.
2.16 pm
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: I am as strong a supporter of the Atlantic alliance as anyone in this House. I believe that the continued maintenance of that alliance is absolutely vital to our security, to that of other European nations and to that of the United States itself. I have no hesitation, in the right circumstances, in facing up to my responsibility to vote for the use of military force in the defence and support of vital national and international interests, so long as it is plain that it is a necessary last resort and all other means of proceeding have been satisfactorily exhausted. So I begin—obviously, I trust—from no anti-American, left-wing, peacenik position in approaching—the problem.
Today's debate is the time to put down a marker to say that the other approaches—the diplomatic, deterrent policy and the use of threat in order to get compliance—have not yet been exhausted. I find myself attracted to the motion tabled in the name of the right hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith), in that if we ask ourselves today whether the case for war has yet been established, the House should say that it has not and that there is still a case for giving more time to other, peaceful alternatives for enforcing our objectives.
Dr. Julian Lewis: How much more time should Saddam Hussein be given?
Mr. Clarke: We should take as much time as is necessary to achieve disarmament, and we should resort to warfare once it is plain that all other methods are exhausted.
Dr. Lewis: Another 12 years?
Mr. Clarke: We have had 12 years, in two or three of which people have done nothing at all. We have had 11 weeks of the present policy and we must judge whether a few weeks more are required.
294
Let me make clear the origin of my doubts about the very persuasive case that the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary sometimes put. I cannot rid myself of doubts that the course to war upon which we are now embarked was decided on many months ago, primarily in Washington, and there has been a fairly remorseless unfolding of events since that time. I am not alone in having heard and met American politicians of great distinction who gave the impression that a change of regime in Iraq was determined upon long ago and that the use of military force in a pre-emptive strike was justified in order to achieve that. I believe that in most cases the motives have been worthy and they genuinely believe that they are ridding themselves of an evil regime. I do not believe the conspiracy theorists. One can go on to hear theories about the installation of democracy in the Arab world, unfinished business from a previous Administration, and a reaction to the understandable state of political opinion in the United States of America in the aftermath of 11 September.
If war happens in the next few weeks—that is a genuine possibility—hon. Members must ask themselves whether it is legitimate to believe that such action had already been determined and had been remorselessly unfolding for many months. Many people believe that. It is why middle England and those of moderate political opinions have so many doubts. To many of my constituents, the answer to the questions, "Did Washington determine such action many months ago?" and "Could the President seek re-election without war and the removal of Iraq's president?" is as obvious as the reply to "Does the emperor have clothes?" The Government must respond to that formidable case.
However, I praise the Government for their actions: first, they put themselves in the classic Churchillian position, followed by every subsequent Government, of being America's closest ally in a great diplomatic crisis to gain the maximum possible influence over the exercise of power. I trust that any Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary of this country would have done that. Secondly, they went to the United Nations and led it towards the path of diplomacy and peaceful coercion, which, I trust, the House would prefer if it achieved the desired effect. The result was resolution 1441, for which I voted. It plainly paves the way to war, if necessary, in setting out the conditions for endeavouring to put together an international coalition that would enforce the United Nations' will when all other means had been exhausted.
The resolution turns on the question whether a material breach has occurred. Although other concerns cannot be brushed aside, the revolting nature of the Iraqi regime and its cruelty, much though we deplore it, is not a legal basis for war. We must concentrate on whether there are weapons of mass destruction, whether disarmament can be induced and, if not, whether force will be used to effect it.
The Government introduce other matters to strengthen their claim. Even today, the Prime Minister asked us to listen to the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd). I shall do that, doubtless with a sense of shock and shared anxiety about the Iraqi regime's outrageous behaviour. The word "attitude" has also been used today, as though the Iraqi regime's attitude to disarmament is a new and exciting concept.

295
However, the question that we must ask is whether a material breach has occurred. To me, that means considering whether demonstrable evidence exists to show that biological and chemical weapons are held in conditions and circumstances in which they pose a current threat to neighbours or to us. There is no evidence of links with al-Qaeda and I do not believe that Iraq poses a threat to New York or London. To claim that is to insult our intelligence. However, I wish to know whether demonstrable evidence exists of sufficient quantities of weapons to pose a threat. I doubt that.
I am glad to say that Iraq's army is degraded and in a weaker position than in 1991. I do not believe Saddam Hussein; he probably has material around Iraq that he has not disclosed and we need to pursue that rigorously. However, is it in a condition to be deployed as a threat to anybody? That has not yet been demonstrated and we should not go to war until it has.
Use of threat and reverting to the policies of international diplomacy and deterrence that we used in the cold war have been successful. Every speaker so far has conceded that coercion has moved Saddam. That shows that the policy is working. It does not mean that we have reached the stage of abandoning deterrence, coercion and threat and deciding that the weather is unfortunately getting warmer in Iraq, that 250,000 people, including a large part of the British Army, are there and either we must bring people home in the next few weeks or they must open fire.
Any war will be won easily. I am glad that if we go to war, it will not take long. However, we should consider alternatives because of the consequences of war. How many terrorists will we recruit in the greater, longstanding battle against international terrorism? It will be far harder to win. What will we do to the stability of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Egypt? What sort of leadership will replace that which might be deposed? The Government never address those questions satisfactorily, as my right hon. Friend the shadow Foreign Secretary said. However, they will have to live with the answers.
The next time a large bomb explodes in a western city, or an Arab or Muslim regime topples and is replaced by extremists, the Government must consider the extent to which the policy contributed to it. That is why hon. Members should pause and why, unless evidence is produced for a breach and a material threat, my judgment today is that we should not go to war. I therefore support the amendment that the right hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury tabled.
2.25 pm
Mr. Peter Kilfoyle: It may surprise some hon. Members, even Labour Members, to know that my instincts are those of a party loyalist. The Foreign Secretary laughs, but I suggest that he examine the record. I have long taken an interest in the subject, and although my view has been consistent, I, like the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), have noticed the Foreign Secretary's inconsistency and the various attempts to shift the goalposts. I therefore support the amendment tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South
296
and Finsbury (Mr. Smith), the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) and 113 others who joined us.
When the Foreign Secretary opened the debate, he gave the impression that we would have the opportunity later to hold a substantive vote on whether this country commits troops to action in Iraq. At the very least, the Government could get their act together. My right hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton, North and Bellshill (Dr. Reid), the appointed chairman of the Labour party, made it clear on "Today" this morning that the Government will go ahead without a substantive vote. He said that that was in accordance with a tradition that was hundreds of years old.
Mr. Straw: I also heard the interview to which my hon. Friend refers. My right hon. Friend the chairman of the Labour party made it clear, as on other occasions, that a substantive vote would take place in the exact terms that I set out earlier. It is our hope and intention that that happens before any military action occurs. That is in the Government's interest as well as that of the House. Let me also give a separate undertaking that the result of the proceedings on the second resolution will be the subject of a debate and a vote in the House on a substantive motion.
Mr. Kilfoyle: I do not want to disagree with the Foreign Secretary, but my understanding, from sitting in the studio and listening, was that the party chairman made an unequivocal statement. I accept the Foreign Secretary's view, but I should like to dispose of the myth that having a substantive debate before troops are committed somehow prejudices their security. If we have not already signalled a firm intention to attack Iraq, I do not know what we have done. The President of the United States has to go to Congress under the war powers Act. Surely the House should also be allowed to express an opinion.
The Foreign Secretary said two things in answer to the question, "Why Iraq?" He subdivided them into two further points. First, he claimed that Iraq posed an exceptional danger, and he gave defiance of the United Nations as the second reason. Many arguments have been presented about defying the UN. Indeed, the Foreign Secretary mentioned UN resolutions that referred to all countries in the middle east, including Israel, and specifically to making that region a nuclear-free zone.
Although there are differences of opinion, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe presented very well the case against a thoroughly emasculated Iraq posing an exceptional danger. Like him, I anticipate that the overwhelming force in place to deal with Iraq is of such a nature that a campaign would, hopefully, be relatively short and sharp. What we cannot guarantee, however, is the amount of collateral damage that would ensue— apart from the wholly undesirable political outcomes, of course.
The Foreign Secretary asked the rhetorical question, "Why now?" People who think that it is a matter of us running out of patience misunderstand the mechanics of what is going on. The decision was made not in Downing street or the Foreign Office, but in the White House. We are all Philadelphia lawyers now and know

297
all about the fascinating weapons of mass destruction, but anyone with the most rudimentary knowledge of American military doctrine since Colin Powell and the first Gulf war knows that we are missing the obvious. It has taken until now, and it is still not finalised, to mobilise and deploy the troops and units needed to hold a campaign that accords with an American military doctrine that is nearly coming to a conclusion. Oddly, hon. Members will have noticed from today's new reports that space has been allocated in the middle east for only seven of the 70-odd British planes. The hard reality is that it will be an American military campaign.
The reasons for the campaign are complex. It is not just a matter of oil or of the President avenging daddy's unfinished business; the ideological hawks in the US Administration have set out their stall for many years. They have set out, transparently and consistently, the different hopes and aims to which they aspire. I mentioned the undesirable outcomes. We must not forget, as our Prime Minister confirmed at the Dispatch Box when his Back Benchers heckled him, that North Korea will be next. We can write the script: Iran, Syria, Libya. People in Iran must be worried, and we do not know where it will end. That is not conjecture; the objectives of the new pax Americana have been set out clearly and unequivocally.
We should leave it to Hans Blix and el-Baradei to make the definitive statement on weapons of mass destruction and let the United Nations decide whether a material breach has taken place. There are two prerequisites for British public opinion on that.
Phil Hope: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Kilfoyle: No, I will not.
The first prerequisite is that a United Nations resolution is essential. It must be based on credible evidence, and that will not be provided by the political imperatives of the US or UK Governments, or anyone else for that matter. I recommend that people read Senator Riegle's report, published by his Senate Committee, on where the biological weapons originated. It is a matter of congressional record and anyone can get a copy. There were 73 separate consignments, including everything from botulinum toxin to other horrors, such as anthrax. Those were exported to Saddam by the United States. None of us is lily white. I know that that does not help to deal with the problem, but it ill behoves people to stand up as purer than Caesar's wife on the issue.
I urge hon. Members on both sides of the House to consider the fact that it is extremely unlikely that we will be afforded an opportunity to debate the problem substantively. I hear what the Foreign Secretary said, but I also heard what the Labour party chairman said. I wage that it will be extremely problematic for Members of this House to connect with public opinion in our constituencies, parties, the nation at large and internationally, and to express our views. We can do that now only by accepting the amendment. It rules nothing out; it asks only that we consider that the case is not yet proven. That gives all concerned the leeway to make their case. Hon. Members should not miss out on the opportunity to reconnect with the overwhelming consensus of the British people.
2.35 pm
Mr. Michael Portillo: I draw attention to my registered interest.
I begin with the connection between Iraq and al-Qaeda. During the weekend following 11 September 2001, I was at a dinner party in Islington. While the corpses were still being taken out the wreckage of the World Trade Centre, the majority of people at that party were convinced that America had it coming. They thought that in the preceding years, the United States had arrogantly thrown its weight about in the world. My view is the opposite. The background to 9/11 was a decade in which the west had failed to show fixity of purpose and had neglected to offer deterrence to its enemies. The United States, in particular, had repeatedly come under attack from extremists without offering any effective response.
In the 1990s, there was the first attack on the World Trade Centre. That was followed by the bombing of American barracks in Saudi Arabia, the bombs at American embassies in east Africa, and then the attack on the US warship Cole. Those outrages represented a classic escalation. In retrospect, each inadequate response to each outrage showed a lack of determination that was taken as a sign of weakness, and that emboldened our enemies.
Lynne Jones: What is the connection between the incidents that the right hon. Gentleman describes and the activities of the Iraqi Government?
Mr. Portillo: The hon. Lady should have waited for my next paragraph.
In parallel, the west was failing to respond to the escalation of activities by Saddam. He failed to co-operate with United Nations inspectors immediately after the Gulf war. There were further atrocities against his people and violations of the no-fly zone. He harassed the inspectors until they were forced to leave. The west again made no adequate response to any of those things. If there is a criticism of the Prime Minister, it is that he, in common with others, did not seek to take effective action in 1998 and 1999, but that does not make him wrong today.
Mr. Tony Banks: That is a bit rich coming from a member of a Government who supported Saddam Hussein.
Mr. Portillo: I am explaining the history of the west's lack of response. Of course that includes the Government of whom I was a member, but I am analysing the important point at which we now stand.
Mike Gapes: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Portillo: Let me make some progress.
During the 1990s and beyond, Russia and France undermined the sanctions regime. They advertised to Saddam the infirmity of purpose of the west. Both Saddam and al-Qaeda, separately, could take comfort from the clear evidence that the west was not willing to take firm action. That is the connection between al-

299
Qaeda and Saddam. I think it reasonable that after 11 September 2001 the United States reviewed its security and the failure of deterrence. It concluded that if we continued to let Saddam to get away with things and to go his own way, our vulnerability would increase.
The world has its fair share of wicked leaders and terrorists, and they will do whatever they can get away with. They listen to what we say but, more to the point, they watch what we do. As the Prime Minister rightly says, if the civilised world is not prepared to make its words stick now, its determination will always be doubted because political will is crucial.
Paul Flynn: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall a question that sought to persuade the Government to beef up the International Atomic Energy Agency inspections of Iraq's nuclear weapons programme? Does he also recall the answer in which the Government said that they had full confidence that Iraq, as a signatory of the non-proliferation treaty, would abide by its international obligations and not work on a nuclear weapons programme? According to the response, the Government had no intention of doing what the question asked, which was to increase the weapons inspections. That answer was given in the House on 19 April 1990 by the Government of whom the right hon. Gentleman was a prominent member and of whose record he seems so proud.
Mr. Portillo: I think I have covered that point. I must admit that, in my view, Members who persist in saying "We have been wrong over a period of 12 or 13 years, and we must therefore be wrong to try and put our mistakes right now" are on very weak ground.
In an important sense, Saddam and Bin Laden are co-belligerents. They share a hatred of the west, and a belief in the efficacy of terror. Let me add that if Britain tried to stand aside—here I disagree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke)—that would not spare us from the terror. A display of weakness will bring more terror, not less; and I think it is a dangerous myth to believe that terrorism is in some way beyond deterrence.
The Prime Minister's task has been made more difficult—I admit this—because America has not been willing to say much about the middle east peace process. I think that the United States is strictly correct to reject any link between Iraq and the regional peace process, but there are many indirect links. Certainly, I believe it might have been easier for the Government to try to establish direct connections between Iraq and the Palestine Liberation Organisation than to try to establish them between Iraq and al-Qaeda. It is clear that Saddam is the hero of the Palestinian suicide bombers.
Many today have focused on the dangers to the region if there is a conflict. Of course there are dangers, but I say that if Iraq is disarmed there are opportunities too. The United States will then engage in the middle east peace process; but it will do so with an unambiguous hostility to terrorism. A new Palestinian leadership will then understand that terrorism will not work, and that therefore political engagement may.
300
Prime Minister Sharon may be ruthless in war, but he would also be ruthless in peace. The peace will require Israel to give up land, positions and settlements, and Mr. Sharon is the man to force such an outcome on the Israelis.
As the Prime Minister said yesterday, Iraq is a potentially rich country. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Devizes said today, it is a country with a middle class and educated people. If economic and political freedoms are returned to Iraq, that can have a powerful effect on a region in which those liberties are largely absent. Perhaps Iran too will flip towards the moderates.
This crisis has cost the west dearly in terms of the damage to its institutions. New institutions may be required. I am a great supporter of NATO, but it is damaged, and in any case it is geographically very limited. I believe that we should look for a new organisation, not to replace NATO but to stand alongside it. The aim of that organisation would be to counter terrorism, and its focus would be global. The United States, Britain and Australia would certainly be founder members of the new organisation; perhaps its headquarters would be in Prague or Madrid. Whatever the precise form of that new organisation, I believe that its time has come.
2.43 pm
Mr. Gerald Kaufman: Last August, at the invitation of the hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Johnson), I wrote an article in The Spectator setting out my reservations about a possible war on Iraq. Six months later, I stand by every one of the arguments I advanced then. They included my concerns about the effect on Muslim opinion; about the need for any action to take place under United Nations authority; about the apparent double standards involved in enforcing UN resolutions on Iraq while neglecting those on Israel and the Palestinians although I recognise that the resolutions on Iraq are mandatory, while those on Israel are not; about the danger of Iraq's spreading any such war, with the consequent perils of a middle east in turmoil and serious economic consequences; about the hazards of war—including the certainty of civilian casualties; and about the role played in such a conflict by the most unappetising United States Administration I have ever known. I repeat that I said that then and believe it still.
If tonight's vote were a vote of confidence in George W. Bush—appointed by the United States Supreme Court rather than being elected by the American people—I would be the first into the No Lobby. Under Bush the United States is a bad world citizen—bad on global warming, bad on the International Criminal Court, and bad on steel tariffs. What we are debating today, however, is not a vote of confidence or otherwise in Bush, or even a vote about my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister—although I support and trust my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. The issue at stake in this debate, and in whatever action follows from it, is the United Nations as the only upholder of world order, however faulty and inadequate the United Nations may be.
In my Spectator article I emphasised the primacy of the United Nations, a primacy stated in clause IV of the Labour party constitution. As it happens, it was

301
included in that constitution on the initiative of one Anthony Wedgwood Benn, who at that time was a staunch supporter of the United Nations rather than the toady to Saddam Hussein that he has since become.
The fact is that the United Nations has passed a series of mandatory resolutions on Iraq following that country's serial aggressions and violations of human rights, and Iraq has violated every one. Since I expressed my concerns last summer the Security Council has passed resolution 1441. 1 must say that the constant moving of the goal posts is a sign of the inadequacy of some of the arguments being advanced. First, Members said "Let us have a resolution"; we got a resolution. Then some Members said "Let us have a second resolution"; a second resolution has been tabled. Now there is a motion on the Order Paper referring not just to a second resolution but to lots of other conditions, including a debate in the House before military action. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has conceded that as well. At what point do we have a consistent position? At what point do we lay down conditions and say that those conditions must be met?
Resolution 1441 reiterates all the previous resolutions since 1990, and lays down a process for its implementation together with a statement of the consequences if it is not obeyed by Saddam Hussein. The resolution could not be clearer; I assume that all Members have read it. While a further resolution may be regarded as desirable—and my right hon. Friends are attempting to obtain one—it is certainly not indispensable. Resolution 1441 lays down all the necessary conditions.
Mr. Salmond rose—
Mr. Kaufman: What happens if resolution 1441 is not implemented? Yesterday my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister set out the consequences for world order—
Mr. Salmond rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman is obviously not going to give way.
Mr. Kaufman: As I was saying, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister set out the consequences for world order if resolution 1441 is turned into a flouted expression of unfulfilled requirements. What he said was incontrovertible. If Saddam can get away with the games he is playing, stringing out the process until it is vitiated and nullified, the consequences for world order will be catastrophic. I cannot understand my colleagues who argue that, given a little or a lot more time, Saddam will suddenly display a change of heart. It is what Hugh Dalton used to call the doctrine of unripe time, and it is the basis of the amendment.
Yet there is a further consequence. I have expressed in clear terms my distaste for the present United States Administration. Only with immense difficulty and effort has my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister persuaded Bush and his cronies to take the United Nations route. The House should have no doubt that if that UN route fails on this issue, the Bush Administration will wash their hands of the UN altogether and go it alone whenever they believe that their national interests are at stake.
302
Neither we nor any other ally will be able to influence Bush otherwise. That may be a despairing argument for voting for the Government motion tonight, but it is realistic and, I believe, incontrovertible. Moreover, if the role of the United Nations is set aside, we have no hope whatever of solving the agonising Israeli-Palestinian confrontation. Even now, it is possible for our Prime Minister to persuade Bush to participate in the initiatives necessary to obtain peace in the middle east. Success in this issue may persuade Bush that there could be success in that issue too. However, I do not believe that a middle east peace process would be possible if the United States retreated into self-interested isolationism, which is only too prevalent in the White House and the Pentagon. Every hon. Member will search her or his conscience in deciding how to vote tonight. I have searched mine and, as I said, all my colleagues will have done so. Even though all our hearts are heavy, I have no doubt that it is right to vote with the Government tonight.
2.50 pm
Sir Patrick Cormack: I am sure that the article by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) was excellent. I hope that he was suitably paid—perhaps there will be another commission shortly.
The Chamber is a marvellous place, and is at its best in a debate such as this one. I listened to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), whom I proudly supported when he stood for the leadership of my party. I also listened to the Foreign Secretary. Strange to say, I find myself in great disagreement with my right hon. and learned Friend, but in total agreement with what the Foreign Secretary said today and what the Prime Minister said yesterday. This is the second debate on Iraq that I have listened to in two days. Yesterday, I sat in Church house, Westminster as a member of the General Synod of the Church of England and listened to a debate on Iraq.
Mr. Salmond: The hon. Gentleman would have been well duffed up in that debate.
Sir Patrick Cormack: The hon. Gentleman is using unparliamentary language about being duffed up. In fact, in a debate in which I did not take part, I listened to a series of speeches from good, well-intentioned men and women who, for the most part, were misguided and did not understand the realities of what they were talking about.
Mr. Salmond: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Sir Patrick Cormack: No, I will not.
I listened in particular to three Church of England bishops who effectively paraphrased the words of St. Augustine—"Make us tough, but not yet." All of them underlined the appalling nature of the despicable regime in Iraq, but were not prepared to face up to the consequences, which the Prime Minister, as a national leader, has had the courage and calmness to do. I make no apology to any Opposition Member or anyone in the House for saying that I believe that the Prime Minister

303
has behaved in an exemplary fashion since 11 September in the field of foreign affairs. I cannot say the same for him in other fields.
Bob Spink: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Sir Patrick Cormack: No, I will not.
The Prime Minister has given a lead, although that has not been easy for him. We must all accept that his party has an honourable tradition of pacifism, so it cannot have been easy for him to make certain speeches before certain audiences. I remind Government Members who disagree with him that he has made one fundamental mistake in his six years in Downing street. He has relied too much on spin, which has undermined his credibility and made people less trusting of him. I believe that that is one factor in the unease of the nation as a whole. However, I wish to tell Government Members and people outside the House that in this particular area the Prime Minister has behaved with probity and great courage. He deserves support as a national leader of considerable renown.
Jeremy Corbyn: I am interested in the hon. Gentleman's praise for the Prime Minister's role in the issue since 11 September 2001. With all the effectiveness of Government machinery, spin doctors and publicity, why is there still a huge majority in the opinion polls against going to war? Why did the biggest ever demonstration in British history take place on 15 February, when a lot of ordinary people who had never been on a demonstration before marched through the streets of London because they do not believe that there would be a just war?
Sir Patrick Cormack: I have seen people march before on Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament demonstrations, including the Prime Minister in the past—[Interruption.] Perhaps not a million people, but the numbers approached that. The hon. Gentleman spoke about spin. I said that, paradoxically, that has helped to destroy the Prime Minister's credibility, which I greatly regret.
Mr. Marshall-Andrews rose—
Sir Patrick Cormack: I have limited time at my disposal, so I will not give way again.
I wish to say two things in particular. Yesterday, in the exchanges after the Prime Minister's admirable statement, I put it to him—the Foreign Secretary made this point this afternoon—that if we allow the international community to be set at naught by a tyrant whose evil, if not without parallel, has not been exceeded in the past half century or more, the United Nations will go the way of the League of Nations. At stake—this was implicit in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Kensington and Chelsea (Mr. Portillo)—is the credibility of the international order in standing up uncompromisingly to evil. Like everyone else, I hope that we will not have a war, but action against Saddam Hussein will be wholly justified if he continues to flout the will of the international community.
304
In that context, let us remember that the weapons inspectors are not employed as weapons discoverers. They are there to inspect what Saddam Hussein declares. He has repeatedly made false declarations, and the evidence is before us. The Command Paper that the Government provided for every Member as background reading for this debate makes it plain that time after time this man has thumbed his nose at the international community and has wrought terrible havoc on his own people. I urge Liberal Members to go to the National Liberal Club and look at the portrait of Mr. Gladstone. They should remember those amazing speeches that he made during the Bulgarian atrocities in which he talked about clearing out the Turks
"bag and baggage from the province they have desolated and profaned."
If anybody has desolated and profaned the province over which he rules it is Saddam Hussein.
We are now at a critical juncture in the history of this new century. If we allow this evil tyrant to get away with it, we will advance into the century with no credible international organisations and with our own credibility, and therefore the defence of our very people, at risk. I urge the House to reject the well-meaning amendment tabled by the right hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith) and support the Government without any equivocation in the Lobby tonight.
2.58 pm
Mr. Bruce George: The approach to war is dangerous for combatants and non-combatants, and poses enormous problems for ordinary Members of Parliament. We are buffeted by pressure and arguments on all sides but, at the end of the day, we are impelled to make a rational decision. I have looked at the resolution, and shall vote on it, and not one that may be made in future. There is nothing exceptional about that—I do not feel prejudiced, nor is my conscience undermined by decision to go into the Lobby with the Government and the official Opposition.
I have long believed that the US and the UK should go down the Security Council route. I have unequivocally supported all those who supported 1441, and I have strongly supported, at the United States Congress, as has the Defence Committee, a further resolution—not that it is necessary legally, but it is certainly necessary politically to gain endorsement and justification from a larger number of individuals and nations than have hitherto given support. The Defence Committee went to Washington and New York a couple of weeks ago. We met the Senate Armed Services Committee and senior people from the National Security Council, the Department of Defense and the State Department. There was hardly anybody whom we met, bar the commissionaire in the Watergate hotel, whom we did not press strongly for a second resolution. I am delighted that efforts are being made to achieve that.
Is Saddam co-operating fully with 1441 and the other 16 or 17 resolutions? Of course he is not. Dr. Blix and others have said that he is co-operating reluctantly with the process, but he is not co-operating in substance. It has been said endlessly, and I repeat, that UNMOVIC's role is not to search down holes or in caves but to verify

305
whether Saddam Hussein has been compliant. Dr. Blix said that in his speech to the United Nations; and the Defence Committee was privileged to listen to him privately for one hour and five minutes the day before he made his presentation and, I am sure, before he had written it.
During his formal presentation, Dr. Blix said:
"The declaration submitted by Iraq on 7 December, despite its large volume, missed the opportunity to provide the fresh material and evidence needed to respond to the open questions."
He continued:
"Although I can understand that it may not be easy for Iraq in all cases to provide the evidence needed, it is not the task of the inspectors to find it.
Iraq must squarely tackle this task and avoid belittling the questions."
So the inspectors are seeking assurances, which up to now have not been provided.
The example of the al-Samoud missile is well worth considering. There are three variations of it, two in existence and one on a drawing board. It is obvious from what Dr. Blix has seen that Iraq is in material breach in relation to the missile, which in 13 out of the 40 tests has shown that it is capable of flying farther than the distance laid down for it by the United Nations.
If one considers each of the flagrant breaches, the obfuscations, the untruths and all the evidence that has been provided, one reaches the inescapable conclusion that Saddam Hussein has hidden, is hiding and is not compliant. One asks how much longer should one search. Yes, weeks more—there must be flexibility—but if anyone argues that Dr. Blix should be given 10 or 12 months to complete the job, I am afraid they are barking.
Mr. Salmond rose—
Mr. Bruce George: I give way to someone who falls into that category.
Mr. Salmond: Surely the logic of the argument that the right hon. Gentleman has just spelled out is that if the arms inspectors—Dr. Blix and his colleagues—ask for more time, they should be given it.
Mr. George: As I tried to explain earlier, there is a great deal of flexibility in the system. The Prime Minister has succeeded in persuading the United States to go down the Security Council route. I fear that there will be an opportunity for Dr. Blix to search further and longer, but it must not be for an indefinite period.
Bob Spink rose—
Mr. George: The hon. Gentleman has only been in the Chamber for half an hour, and has already intervened once. I have no intention of giving way to him.
There are many hon. Members who are not persuaded by the evidence so far presented, and I respect their views. It would be much easier for Members of Parliament and our Prime Minister to succumb to domestic and international pressure, but when I asked
306
the Prime Minister a rather convoluted question before the Liaison Committee, about what factors he would take into account before he made a decision, he said:
"is it right and is it do-able"
He believes, and others believe, that the route he is taking is right.
If we look at the Prime Minister's record so far, it is clear that he faced a lot of opposition to the UK intervening in Sierra Leone. He was right. There was a lot of opposition in all parts of the House to intervention in Macedonia. He was right. On Kosovo, there was even more opposition. He was right. On Afghanistan, he was right. Therefore I am prepared to give his judgment further endorsement. I have heard no reason why his perspective should be trashed, as many have suggested.
I approach war, if it is to take place, with trepidation. It is not something to which anyone looks forward. The more one speaks to military personnel, the clearer it becomes that war must be undertaken as a last resort. I hope very much that there will be a second resolution and that pressure will be put on Saddam Hussein. I, like many others, have said over the months that the only way to put pressure on him so that war will be superfluous is to let him see that the various countries of the world are so united that he has no option. Ironically, the greater the pressure, the less likely he is to resist.
There was an amazing demonstration a week ago; it was extremely impressive. I have read a number of biographies of Keir Hardie. There was a massive antiwar demonstration on 2 August 1914, organised by the Independent Labour party. On 3 August 1914 overwhelming support was given in this place by the parliamentary Labour party to the British expeditionary force. One of the very few who opposed the Labour party was the great hero of the Labour party, Ramsay MacDonald. The following day war was declared.
Although one must pay serious attention to public opinion, ultimately—this sounds an appalling argument, using Burke, who was not a democrat—we owe our constituents our judgment. I have spoken to so many people, been to so many meetings and read so much documentation, and my own view is that Saddam Hussein is not to be trusted. I hope that there will be a second resolution, and I hope that the pressure on him will be so enormous that there will be no need to go to war. That is what I yearn for.
3.7 pm
Mr. John Wilkinson: Hearing my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) is an exhilarating experience. He is like a bottle of 1970 port, which improves with maturity. Today he showed, as he always does, sound judgment. He brings to these debates an engaging Barchester view. We get a report from Church House, and it is not irreverent, as mine would be—all gas and gaiters. He is serious in his criticism of the Synod of the Church of England and says that it is seriously misguided, as it is, and as are so many of those who have signed the amendment tabled by the right hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury.
I was saddened by the amendment and by the fallacious arguments adduced by the right hon. Gentleman. First, he said that Her Majesty's

307
Government were not giving Iraq time, as though 12 years since the end of the Gulf were not time enough. One should recall that the ceasefire at the end of the Gulf war was conditional on the full implementation by Iraq of UN resolutions. Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman said that perhaps there was not total co-operation, but possibly 70 per cent. —a figure challenged by the Foreign Secretary, and rightly so. There is virtually no evidence of any significant co-operation with the arms inspectors or of compliance with UN resolution 1441. The right hon. Gentleman then said that the Government were anxious that his amendment might give comfort to Saddam Hussein. Nothing gives greater comfort to Saddam Hussein than the infirmity of purpose and the divisions that we have seen in the House of Commons.
Fourthly, the right hon. Gentleman said that Saddam Hussein believed that caution was appeasement and that this was an utterly wrong belief on the part of the President of Iraq. It is perplexing, naïve, simplistic and highly dangerous to think, as the right hon. Gentleman does, that Saddam Hussein is open to moral persuasion. Strength is the only thing that he understands. The right hon. Gentleman might think that strength lies not only in military might, but Saddam Hussein and his ilk most certainly do not agree.
The notion of peaceful coercion, as advanced by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), is a thoroughly dangerous illusion. It is a contradiction in terms. The earlier sedentary intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) put it very well: it is like feeding the crocodiles. That was his comment to the Liberal spokesman, and it was highly pertinent. If we wish to deter the dangerous process of weapons proliferation, and particularly the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, the way to do it is to deal effectively with Saddam Hussein and to do it fast. Time is not on our side; that is why he is trying to string us along. The faster military action is taken, the better. We all know that it will be much harder for the allied forces in the summer season. We cannot keep them marching up and down the frontiers of Iraq, and there comes a time when enough is enough. That time is approaching fast. If effective action is taken, it is much less likely that the dictator who runs Korea will maintain his weapons programme, and other potential proliferators such as the Iranians and the Libyans will be deterred, too.
Unity of purpose is absolutely crucial, however. We learned that when facing down the dictators during the cold war. I find it so sad that the allies who brought succour to the beleaguered people of West Berlin in 1948—the United States, the United Kingdom and France—should not be wholly together and that France should be diverging its purposes today. I recall, too, as will many other hon. Members, the deployment by the Soviets of SS20 ballistic missiles. We faced down that crisis in the face of public opposition and opposition in some quarters of the House, especially in the Labour ranks. We did so, and there was unity of purpose in the alliance, not least on the part of the federal German Government, who were courageous then, but today seem frankly to be on the other side. That grieves me.
308
It is also interesting to note that those with the firmness of purpose that we seek are those who have suffered most from dictatorship. It is not we western Europeans who are showing total resolution—this Government are, to their credit—but the central and eastern Europeans: the Poles, the Czechs, the Bulgarians and others. The Poles remember what happened to their people at the time of Solidarity when martial law was imposed by Jaruzelski. The Czechs remember the Soviet tanks rolling into Prague in '68. The Hungarians remember what happened to Imre Nagy in 1956. It is sad that the Liberal party has become so wayward today.
Saddam Hussein knows that those who are not against him are for him. It is therefore crucial for the future of our alliance and the security of our continent that the European members of the alliance as a whole should get behind the United States as we are, see that resolution 1441 is fully implemented—and fast—and that Saddam Hussein is seen down.
3.14 pm
Mr. George Galloway: How extraordinary that my right hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) should pray in aid of this war what happened in Britain in 1914. That war was one that neither side wanted to fight, but because they had both turned up for the show, they thought that they had to go through with it. Yes, my right hon. Friend is right: despite Keir Hardie, the first world war was fought and there are a lot of white crosses in France and the low countries to prove it—an anthem for doomed youth that killed the flower of European civilisation.
We were told here that this was not a resolution for war, and that it was the last push for peace. Well, listening to the consensus between the two Front Benches, it sounded awfully like war to me. I do not know what it did for the enemy, but it didn't half frighten me. It is entirely possible that the teenage scribblers who made that spin earlier this week on the Prime Minister's behalf that today's resolution was about peace, not war, have not read George Orwell's "1984". After all, the same teenage scribblers told us last week on the Prime Minister's behalf that this was going to be a six-day war, drawing on the illusion of the apparent triumph of the Israeli armies over the Arabs in 1967. They entirely missed the point that, on the day that the six-day war ended, the 35-year war began. That is precisely the point that the supporters of this amendment—which merely asks us to conclude that the case for war has not yet been proven—are making. However short and sharp this war is—I place on record that I do not believe that it will be either short or sharp—its consequences, its reverberations and its seismic impact will disfigure life in this country and around the world for as long as the Members here present are still with us.
This is a defining moment. For the first time in many years, Parliament has an opportunity truly to shape world events. I have spent the last months talking virtually daily to American broadcasters and journalists, and I can tell the House that if this Parliament sends the message tonight that the British people are not with this adventure, it will have a decisive impact on opinion in the United States of America. We are always told that it is too early to vote on war until it is too late. This is our last opportunity meaningfully to

309
affect the course of these great events, and hon. Members are fooling themselves if they do not acknowledge that. We all know what the public want. Every Member knows what their constituents would like to read about them in the newspapers tomorrow. Every Member on the Labour Benches knows what the members of their constituency party would like to read about them tomorrow. Let me quote our leader:
"The people are the masters. We are the servants of the people. We will never forget that, and if ever we do, the people will very soon show that what the electorate gives, the electorate can take away."
Those words were spoken by our Prime Minister when that new dawn broke in 1997.
This debate is about one man, and it is not the man they want us to think it is about. This is about George W. Bush.[Interruption.] I know that they do not like to hear this. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) said, this is the most distasteful American Administration that he has seen in his long lifetime. This is an American presidency that people on the Labour Benches would not have been seen dead with. This is an Administration who made Texas the execution chamber of the world, who broke all the international treaties, who walked away from every international effort held dear by Labour Members.[Interruption.] They don't like it up 'em because they know that what I am saying is the truth. They are standing against Nelson Mandela, Archbishop Tutu, Thabo Mbeki and with George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle. That is the bottom line.
This matter can be resolved by the man prayed in aid by the Foreign Secretary eight times in the course of his address—Dr. Hans Blix. The Foreign Secretary may not know it, but in the German press tomorrow, Dr. Blix will ask for exactly what our amendment this evening asks. It is no good pretending to be with the UN and Hans Blix and then slapping him in the face when he asks for more time to complete the job that he has already begun and which is bearing fruit.
There is no doubt that the United States Administration would like to go forward into this war. There is no doubt in Labour Members' minds and hearts, however much they protest, that that born-again, right-wing, Bible-belting, fundamentalist Republican Administration in the United States want war, but they cannot have their war without the support of Great Britain. The vast majority of people in Great Britain are against the war. We know that to be true: we are asking Parliament to reflect it. We have a great opportunity this evening and I hope that my hon. Friends will not throw it away.
3.22 pm
Mr. John Gummer: There comes a time in one's life when one finds oneself in peculiar company. The feeling is probably mutual, and others will be as embarrassed as I, but that should lead people to listen carefully to the group that has come together to point out something that should be self-evident—that the case for military action against Iraq is yet unproven. First, it is unproven to the British people. They are not convinced, and my right hon. Friend the Member for
310
Devizes (Mr. Ancram) has been assiduous in pressing the Prime Minister to convince the British people. He has failed so far to do so.
Dr. Julian Lewis: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Gummer:No, I really will not. Secondly, the wider world has not been convinced. Of course, we could be right to go to war even if neither of those groups were convinced, except that there has to be life after war. That is the problem. If we go to war in circumstances in which neither our own people nor the wider world are convinced, we will not be seen for what we believe ourselves to be, which is merely the handmaid of the United Nations and the enforcer of peace in circumstances in which there was no alternative.
The alternative is the issue. There can be no just war unless it is the only possibility. That is the number one explanation of the basis on which a nation may go to war. It defends itself because it can do nothing else. It goes to the aid of someone else because that person is being attacked. However, it must have an absolute assurance that it could not do anything else. That is why it is right to suggest that the case for military action against Iraq is as yet unproven.
Hans Blix believes that he can make great gains if he is given time. Of course, he cannot have a veto on the matter. I do not support those who suggest that he can go on asking for more time for as long as he likes. However, it is not unreasonable when a man has had 11 weeks in this stage of the process to give him some more time. People argue that Saddam Hussein has had enough time, but I am not asking for time for him: I am asking for time for Hans Blix, which is rather different.
We are now in a situation in which the western world—to some extent, the whole world—has devoted large resources to press, to squeeze and to demand of Saddam Hussein. We have not yet gone as far as we could, short of war. Much of what is being done could be enlarged, short of war, inexorably to press Saddam Hussein so that he knows that it is not the preamble to a gradual reduction of pressure, but the slow and certain steps that will lead in the end to war.
Jim Knight: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Gummer: No, I will not. The issue for us is whether we should, at this moment, lose sight of the important and necessary precondition for a just war by taking action before it is utterly clear to the world that it is the only possible route.
I turn now to the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Devizes. There is no Member of Parliament who does not know that this war is war by timetable, and the timetable was laid down before the United States had any intention of going to the United Nations. I speak as one who has been a supporter of strong military action. After all, I supported the Cruise and Pershing missiles, and other strong nuclear weapons, when the Prime Minister was a member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. I do not, therefore, accept any suggestion that I am being weak in these circumstances. The truth is that it must be seen by the world that when, or if, we invade Saddam Hussein's Iraq, we do so not because of some prearranged

311
timetable, connected with ulterior motives, but because we and the world are convinced that there is no alternative. That is the message that should be given to those who argue the case from moral grounds.
I would have a great deal of sympathy for the Prime Minister if he said, "I am a politician. I do not listen to clergymen and others on political issues. I am the politician, and I can therefore make those decisions." It is a serious matter that almost without exception those for whom morality is at the centre of their vocation do not believe that the conditions for the just war are yet fulfilled. I would hope that a Prime Minister who believes in the moral case would at least hesitate in his timing when he finds himself opposed by those who are not themselves against war, but who know better what the conditions of the just war are. Those conditions are not yet fulfilled.
One of the problems that beset us is the fact that some people mistake impatience for necessity. Of course we are impatient to get rid of this horrific man, to destroy this regime which has destroyed so many others, to rid the world of a despicable dictator. But we do ourselves wrong if we do not choose the moment when the case for war has been made to those who afterwards must make us able to make the peace.
3.29 pm
Mr. Frank Dobson: I speak as someone who supported military action by our Labour Government in Kosovo and Afghanistan, and before that supported military action in the Gulf war to expel Iraq from Kuwait. My only criticism is that the Americans and British at that time did not finish the job, because my understanding is that regime change then would have been permissible under international law.
I have to say however that, sadly, I am simply not convinced that all-out military action in Iraq can be justified at this time and on the scale envisaged. I do not doubt for a minute the sincerity and morality of my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, or those who support them. I share their concerns about weapons of mass destruction, about the vile and murderous Iraqi regime, about terrorism and about the need to uphold the United Nations. And I recognise, as we all must, that every alternative course of action before the House today is likely to result in protracted misery and a large number of deaths for the people of Iraq. The Government argue that these concerns justify virtually immediate military action, and that they would be resolved by that military action. I find those claims less and less convincing.
In relation to weapons of mass destruction, I do not believe that the Government have made a case that the existing policy of containment, backed up by increased coercion and inspection, is bound to fail.
I do not believe that the Government have made the case that, after 12 years of not protecting the Iraqi people from their vile and oppressive regime, it is now a moral imperative that we do it within the next few weeks. In any case, we are saying that regime change is not one of our objectives.
I do not believe that we have made the case that there is any connection between the current Iraqi regime and al-Qaeda.
312
In relation to upholding the authority and reputation of the United Nations, I ask whether anything could undermine the authority of the United Nations more than the United States announcing in advance that unless the United Nations agrees with its policy the United States will ignore the United Nations. The United States cannot claim to be the sheriff executing a warrant that its court has not granted it.
Even less convincing are the claims of the United States about the enforcement of international obligations, when we consider its failure to implement Kyoto, join the International Criminal Court or obey the World Trade Organisation. It is tending to behave rather like a maverick state. A small maverick state is a bit of a nuisance. It is a real problem for the rest of the world if the only remaining super-power turns maverick. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was wise and sensible to recognise the danger of that prospect and to try to reduce it by reining in the activities of the United States and getting it to go along the United Nations route. He deserves great credit for what he has achieved. But there is a danger of following the example of the Israeli Labour party, which joined the Sharon coalition to restrain him and ended up by getting nothing but the blame at the end of the process.
It may be that the United States is strong enough to shrug off any consequences of the actions it intends to take. Britain may not be in as strong a position.
If there is a war, it is likely to be quick. It may not be, but it is likely to be. Even if there is a quick win, what will the result be? I am sure that the Iraqi people—those who survive—will welcome the overthrow of the current regime, but we have no answers to the question of how Iraq will be governed, who will govern it and whether the internal struggles that might result will spill over into neighbouring states in a way that might be a threat to international peace and security. I am sure that the ruling elites in the neighbouring states will welcome the overthrow of Saddam, but what of their peoples? They will see double standards: action to uphold UN resolutions on Iraq, but no action to uphold UN resolutions on Israel and Palestine. Many will regard that as anti-Islam. From my personal knowledge of the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, I know that there is not one jot of truth in that view in terms of British Government policy; however, I cannot necessarily say the same for the United States.
People in the middle east recognise that the current Administration in the United States are in power partly because of the support of Christian fundamentalists, some of whom publicly believe that the borders of Israel should be extended to take in all the land of the Palestinians. That leaves millions of Muslims angry, and moderate Muslims in despair, because they feel let down by nation states and the United Nations. As we know, an additional minority will resort to terrorism. Military action against Iraq will be a principal recruiting sergeant for terrorism, and al-Qaeda will be delighted if the United States and Britain go to war.
There are also wider consequences: the threat to the fragile world economy, and a boost to the right-wing United States unilateralists, who think that the new

313
world order should consist of them issuing the orders. The rest of the world will, in future, be waiting nervously to see who will be the next target for such treatment.
Dr. Julian Lewis: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Dobson: No. Meanwhile, nothing will be done to strengthen the United Nations' ability to act as the United Nations. Nothing will be done to counter terrorism, to contain the spread of weapons of mass destruction, or—most important of all—to give the UN the power to undermine and remove tyrannous regimes, which is currently beyond its competence.
With all that in mind, I do not believe that there is a case for immediate military action on the scale envisaged. It will inevitably lead to the loss of life of, and permanent physical and mental injury to, British troops and innocent Iraqi people. That cannot be justified at this time, and certainly not without the explicit prior consent of the United Nations and this House of Commons. Even then, I, for one, would be doubtful of the consequences.
3.37 pm
Mr. David Trimble: I should make it clear at the outset that my hon. Friends and I will support the Government in the Division Lobby this evening. The Government have said that this motion is not a vote for war, but we are under no illusion about the fact that it is a further step along a route that might end in war. We do not support such a motion lightly, therefore, because we are well aware of the consequences that might flow from it. Indeed, all right hon. and hon. Members will be deeply conscious of the fact that thousands of servicemen are on their way to the Gulf, and we know what the consequences for them may be. I remark parenthetically that among those going to the Gulf are the two Irish regiments: the Royal Irish Regiment and the Irish Guards. Consequently, well in excess of 1,000 people from Northern Ireland—and, indeed, a not insignificant number from the Republic of Ireland—will shortly be deployed in the Gulf.
Time is pressing, and I want to make just a few short and simple points. We have no doubt about the nature of the regime in Iraq. I was amazed at the comment by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Kelvin (Mr. Galloway), who referred to Texas as the execution chamber of the world. Does he know nothing about Iraq? Does he know nothing about what has happened in Baghdad in the past 30 years? That was an appalling statement for him to make, and he needs to look at the regime that he has befriended a little more clearly.
We have no doubt about the threat, about the wars that have been started, or about the weapons of mass destruction that have been accumulated, and which continue to be there. There is also no doubt about what the United Nations requires. There are United Nations resolutions that require Saddam Hussein to disarm. There has certainly been a failure to comply. There was a material breach before 1441, and there is a material breach now.
What should we do? That is the question. It is only the credible threat of force that has achieved the little progress that there has been, and that has made Saddam
314
Hussein permit the admission of inspectors. That comes after the failure of earlier UN resolutions. All the resolutions in the 1990s failed. The UN and the world community allowed themselves to be bluffed and manoeuvred out of Iraq. Against that background, 1441 had to be clear, and backed up by a credible threat of force. That credible threat has to be maintained.
The paradox is that, in order to obtain compliance with UN resolutions, there has to be the threat of force. Unless Saddam Hussein complies, it is inevitable that that force will have to be used. The time involved may be long or short, but hon. Members who have supported the UN and its resolutions, including 1441, must be aware that, as a consequence, they must support the credible use of force, right down to the point of its use. If they fail to do so, they will weaken the UN gravely.
The UN has been weakened badly enough by the failures of the 1990s. It has again set its hand to trying to carry through its will in this matter, and it must succeed. If not, enormous damage will be done to the possibility that the UN can be credible in the future, and that will have implications for world peace. The paradox is that those who want peace and a UN that succeeds in the world must therefore support the Government, right down to the use of force if that becomes necessary.
I appreciate that some people find that difficult to live with. Some of those who are reluctant to go down the route that I have described are well meaning, and others are engaged in wishful thinking. We have seen some evidence of that in the debate.
Other people are influenced by less noble motives. I have been distressed by the degree of anti-Americanism that has been expressed in the debate, and the personal hostility to the President. I consider that wholly misplaced. I have been appalled at some of the comments about President Bush, and at the false caricature of him that has been presented. I base that opinion not only on the fleeting personal acquaintance that I have had with him, but on what he has said and done over the past couple of years, which I have looked at closely.
The record is clear, especially in the period since 11 September. The US has moved slowly, deliberately and proportionately. That is the evidence of the past year and a half. I have listened to the caricatures of President Bush that have been presented, and I think that hon. Members should get away from the propaganda—coming from elements in the American Democrat party—that they have swallowed. They should look at things a little more clearly.
People have been concerned about what will happen in Iraq and the region if force has to be used. However, we must realise that the region is highly unstable. That is another of the lessons of 11 September: it brought home to us just how unstable the region is. We need to think about the causes of that instability, and about how we can resolve or do something to improve the situation there.
This is a complex issue, and I cannot go far into it in the couple of minutes remaining to me, but we need to ask ourselves what we can do about it. If there were no oil in the region, there would be a series of failed states there. The region has failed to deal with the challenge of modernisation.

315
I emphasise that I am talking about the middle east region as a whole and the Arab states there, not about Islam. A distinction must be drawn between Islam and what is happening in the middle east in respect of a particular and virulent strand of that religion. That strand is a distortion of Islam.
We need to ask why modernisation has failed. Saddam grew out of the Ba'ath socialist party, although he is, in fact, a crude anti-Semitic nationalist. Why have such people obtained and retained power? How do we change that?
I am not just talking about regime change, but asking how we change the culture in the middle east and the orientation of those states because, until we do that, we will not achieve stability. Just talking about the problem in Israel and Palestine is not terribly helpful. That problem cannot be dealt with in isolation. It is part of the instability generally, and dealing with that instability generally will make it easier to deal with Israel and Palestine; but we cannot deal with that in isolation.
The issue this evening is whether we support the Government in what they are doing—whether we want the UN resolutions to be enforced. That is the challenge. The resolutions have got to be complied with or enforced—if not complied with, then enforced—and that has to be done as and when we can to maintain the threat, and it may have to be done soon.
3.45 pm
Dr. Gavin Strang: Most people would agree that war can be justified only when all other options have been exhausted, and it is my view that we have not reached that point. There is still an alternative to war: the weapons inspection process, set in place by UN Security Council resolution 1441 last November.
Dr. Blix made the point—as did the Liberal Democrat spokesman earlier—that there have been eight years of inspections since 1991, followed by a four-year gap, and that there have now been inspections for just so many weeks. As Dr. Blix says, with characteristic understatement, to call it a day after just 13 weeks is a little short. It is indeed; I would go further and say that it is wrong.
During his statement to the House earlier this month on contingency preparations, I suggested to the Secretary of State for Defence that the threat to world security from Iraq is less while the weapons inspectors are in place. In many ways, my views have been strengthened by the reports of Dr. Blix and Dr. el-Baradei.
In essence, as the House is aware, Dr. Blix is largely positive about what he calls Iraq's co-operation on process, but he has identified shortcomings in Iraq's cooperation on substance. In that respect, the tone of his report of 14 February was significantly more optimistic than that of 27 January. As Dr. Blix told Time magazine, if the reality changes, he has to register that to reflect the potential opportunity for progress that has opened up.
The truth is that the weapons inspections process has far from outlived its usefulness. Weapons inspections are still a viable alternative to military action, and the
316
process should be pursued until either it is concluded successfully or it is clear that the inspections cannot usefully continue.
As an aside, I would make a point in response to the argument that inspections have taken place for 12 years. After all, it is legitimate to ask what has happened during those 12 years. Has Iraq attacked, or threatened to attack, its neighbours or the wider world? When we talk about those 12 years, we should not pretend that they were 12 years of total failure. From an international viewpoint, there was the effective containment of Saddam Hussein, and containment in those circumstances is not necessarily a bad policy.
I do not want the House to misunderstand me; it is clear that Saddam Hussein is brutal dictator. I am not advocating that the status quo should exist in perpetuity, and we must deal with Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.
Mr. Salmond: I very much agree with the point that the right hon. Gentleman is making, but, if I remember correctly, President Clinton made exactly the same point about the success of the arms inspections at last October's Labour party conference, and many members of the current Cabinet were nodding vigorously behind him.
Dr. Strang: We are in broad agreement that, certainly, the inspections process should not be concluded at this point.
Turning to the future, I am not in a position to assess the strength of opposition that the Iraqi regime can mount against the military might of the US, supported by Britain and any other states that might fight alongside us. But regardless of the intensity and duration of a war in Iraq, it would not be surprising if sustaining a new regime within a framework acceptable to the victors was far more demanding in terms of resources and what could be achieved politically. Reports of the plans for Iraq after military action show the scale of what we have in mind.
Neither would I want to guess what support there is for Saddam Hussein in Iraq—possibly the vast majority will welcome his overthrow—but it is certainly true that many people in the wider world will deeply resent a military attack, especially if it is not explicitly authorised by the UN. A leading figure in the international Muslim community who was visiting Edinburgh last year told me that an attack on Iraq will be seen by many Muslims throughout the world as an attack on a second Muslim country after Afghanistan. It would certainly not be a surprise if the new regime in Iraq were a target for Muslim radicals throughout the world.
More broadly, without a second resolution we can be confident that war on Iraq would be detrimental to the international coalition against terrorism that has been built up since 11 September 2001. Some states that are now co-operating would reduce or even cease their involvement. Some individuals who are currently cooperating with the police and the security services, or who have the potential to do so, would be discouraged from doing so. As has been pointed out, a bloody war in Iraq could be a factor in encouraging more young Muslims to adopt a misguided and radical approach and to support and participate in terrorist acts.

317
What are the options before us? We can all agree that the most desirable outcome is full Iraqi co-operation with weapons inspectors and the peaceful dismantling of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. That would be a victory for the United Nations and for the stance taken by the United States and our Prime Minister. A second scenario is military action that is not endorsed by the United Nations. Some may say that resolution 1441 gives authority for military action, and if Iraq is in breach, any resulting military action can be described as being authorised by the UN. However, France, China and Russia made it clear when that resolution was passed that they did not consider their support for the resolution as constituting endorsement of future military action. Given the views of those three states, the realpolitik is that an attack on Iraq will be seen by the world as authorised by the international community only if it is backed by a further resolution from the United Nations. If military action is clearly endorsed by the UN, I imagine that most Labour Members will go along with it. While many people worldwide would resent the attack, explicit authorisation by the UN would reduce the scale of opposition.
Phil Hope: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Dr. Strang: I am sorry, but I would rather not because of the time remaining.
A second resolution would demonstrate unequivocally to Iraq and the wider world that any military action was based on international agreement and was properly authorised by the only institution in the world that has the authority to do so: the United Nations.
I respect the motives of my right hon. Friends, and I do not question the seriousness of the issues about which the Foreign Secretary spoke this afternoon. However, to register my concern that the US and British Governments are, on the face of it, rushing to war too quickly, and to make it clear that military action without further explicit UN support is unacceptable, I intend to vote for the amendment of my right hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith).
3.52 pm
Mr. Douglas Hogg: This may be the last opportunity to vote on a substantive motion before British forces are committed to war. If so, those of us who disagree with a war policy will find it much more difficult to express our views. It is therefore important that we take advantage of this debate to do so.
The right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) has spoken about anti-Americanism, which troubles me, too. I am disturbed by the fact that I cannot support the American position on this matter. I have always attached huge importance to the relationship with the United States. I have longstanding and close relations with that country. I am bound to say, however, that I believe it to be wrong on this matter. I understand the American position, which is not crude or unworthy of respect. It is not about oil or about completing what a previous President left undone; in fact, I think that he was right to stop the Gulf war when he did in 1991. This is different.
318
Since 11 September, the United States has developed a different sense of vulnerability. In the context of that sense of vulnerability, it has developed the philosophy of a pre-emptive strike against those who may pose a threat to its security. I understand that. I happen to think that it is wrong, but it is not an unworthy attitude. At the same time, I also have a great deal of respect and understanding for the position of the Prime Minister. In that regard, I agree with much that my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) said. It is right that we should stand by our allies; after all, we expect them to stand by us. However, we need to keep in mind the fact that the United States is the one country capable of taking unilateral action. It is therefore all the more important that we should bind the United States into the multinational organisations that try to regulate the world.
War is wrong. I want to explain my reasons for saying that in four brief ways. First, a Security Council resolution is highly desirable, but it does not make what otherwise is wrong, right. It may provide legal cover, to use the phraseology of my right hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), but that is not sufficient.
Secondly, I am deeply troubled by the morality of what we are about to do. Here I find myself adopting the language—although perhaps less eloquently—of my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer). As we were reminded by the right hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith), war involves injury and death—maybe of thousands—and the devastation of a country. We really must not do that unless all other policy options are closed. Above all, we must not do that unless we can properly invoke the doctrine of self-defence. I accept that the doctrine of self-defence has to be given an enlarged meaning: one does not wait until one is attacked. However, one must be able to say that the risk to one's own country, to the country of one's friends and allies, or to the world is imminent and grave. In all conscience, I do not think that we can say that about Iraq. The policy of deterrence has worked these past 12 years and I believe that it will continue to work in future. I am therefore not satisfied as to the morality of our action.
Simon Hughes: I agree with the right hon. and learned Member's last point. Does he agree that a risk that is clearly imminent and grave is the terrorist risk, which is most likely to be precipitated by precipitate action by us?
Mr. Hogg: I entirely agree; that is my third point. The consequences of any war are likely to be grave. They include the risk of increased terrorism, to which the hon. Gentleman draws attention. They also include: turmoil in the middle east; the fact that Islamic opinion throughout the world will be deeply affronted; and the certainty that we will be involved in, and preoccupied with, the affairs and administration of Iraq for years to come. Those are the predictable consequences of what we are about to do; the unpredictable consequences are probably just as grave. The risks are disproportionately great when one considers any possible benefits of conflict.
Hugh Bayley: The right hon. Gentleman talks about the risks of terrorism. What

319
would be his strategy for dealing with the risk that the Iraqi regime could pass dangerous chemical or biological agents not, perhaps, to al-Qaeda, but to secular Islamic extremists?
Mr. Hogg: I would pursue a vigorous policy of inspection, but I would also make it plain that, if there were any evidence of the risk that the hon. Gentleman mentions, Saddam Hussein would be the subject of attack because the principle of self-defence would properly be invoked—as it was when military action was taken in Afghanistan.
Lastly, it is very dangerous to take a democratic country to war unless the population gives its wholehearted assent. I do not believe that that assent has been given. We shall be taking this country to war when the country does not support war. That is a perilous venture.
For all the reasons that I have outlined, I am against war. I shall vote for the amendment and I shall vote against the Government's position. I very much hope that many other right hon. and hon. Members will do so as well.
3.59 pm
Ann Clwyd: In 1991, I stood at the Opposition Dispatch Box and described what I had seen on the mountains of Iran and Iraq when the Kurds fled from the bombardment of Saddam Hussein. I am afraid that people have very short memories. The scenes were appalling and typical of the attacks made by the Iraqi regime on its own people. The victims include Arabs as well as Kurds. They also include Assyrians, Turkomans and the Shi'as in the south of the country who were forced to flee from the marshes into Iran.
I have spent the past two days travelling and I have come back for this debate so that I can tell the House what I have seen and heard. As the House knows, I have continually argued the case over the years for indicting the regime for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. I am grateful to 201 of my colleagues on both sides of the House who supported my proposal. I believe that the regime should be removed and that it could have been removed by using international law and indictment. It is a great regret to me that this country, which could have led the way, did not do so. After two years of our making the case and providing evidence from the victims of the regime, the Attorney-General felt that there was not sufficient evidence. I do not know how much evidence one needs, because it abounds. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have the evidence, and the Kurds captured documents from the torture centre that they eventually liberated. Thousands of their citizens died there.
On my latest visit, I opened the first genocide museum in Iraq. It was snowing and quite dark on that day and people had come from all over the area. Their relatives had died in that torture chamber. Inside the museum were photographs that the Kurds had taken. The images were of skulls and shreds of clothing, and of the type of thing that one sees in genocide museums elsewhere in the world. I have been to similar museums in Rwanda and Cambodia, and I have seen the holocaust exhibition in
320
London, but I am afraid that, on this occasion, I just cried. I do not think that I have ever cried in public before, but I did so because the regime's victims were all around me. One old woman came up to me with a piece of plastic and pushed it into my hand. I unwrapped it and saw three photographs. They were of her husband and two sons who had died in that torture centre.
People had written things on the cell walls. Sometimes the writing was in blood and sometimes it was just marks to cross off the days of the week. Inside one cell is a statue of a Peshmerga, whose face looks upward towards a grill through which the light comes. I was told that that Peshmerga had died in that cell and that he was always looking towards the light, because he hoped that, one day, he would be out in the daylight again.
The victims were all around me, and I have been involved for 25 years—including before I became a politician—with the Iraqi opposition. For those 25 years, I have heard the tales of Saddam Hussein's regime and its repression of the Kurds and other minorities. People seem to think that that all came to an end in 1991, but that is a big mistake. Repression, torture and ethnic cleansing have continued throughout the time since then.
On my latest visit, I met some of the victims of torture who had, in the past few months, come out of the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad under the so-called amnesty. One man told me stories that I hardly like to repeat, but we at Indict have taken victims' statements over the past seven years. This victim was a youngish man who said that he had been in prison for eight years. He said that almost every day, people were executed at that prison—not one person, but hundreds. When there was an attack on Uday Hussein's life some time ago, 2,000 prisoners in the prison were executed on the same day. That is the reality of Saddam's Iraq. When I hear people calling for more time, I say "Who will speak up for those victims?"
I shall recount only two stories told by the same man. He told me that a university professor gave birth at the Abu Ghraib prison while he was there. Apparently, because of the very poor diet of thin soup and bread, she did not have enough milk to feed the baby when it was born. She begged the guards for milk, but they refused to give it and the baby died. She held that baby in her arms for three days and would not give up the body. At the end of the three days, because the temperature in the prison was very hot—some 60° C—the body began to smell. They took the woman and her dead baby away. I asked the former prisoner what happened to her and he said that she was killed.
The man then talked about a young boy aged 15 who had done something or other and was in the prison, and fainted during one of the torture sessions—he was beaten so hard that he fainted. The guards pinned him up to the frame of a window and crucified him on the window frame while he was still alive. When he came to, he was crying out for water, but nobody would give him water. One of the other prisoners threw water in his face, but that prisoner was himself taken away and beaten.
Ethnic cleansing goes on all the time. I visited a UN camp where there were hundreds of recent victims of ethnic cleansing who had been kicked out of Kirkuk. The men, women and little children in the camp had been told that they had 24 hours to get out of Kirkuk because they would not agree that they were not Kurds,

321
but Arabs, as part of Arabisation. In other countries, we have taken action against people responsible for ethnic cleansing, so I say to my colleagues, please, who is to help the victims of Saddam Hussein's regime unless we do?
I believe in regime change. I say that without hesitation, and I will support the Government tonight because I think that they are doing a brave thing.
4.7 pm
Mr. Alex Salmond: No one would doubt the sincerity and long-standing commitment of the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) to the Kurdish people. I only wish that I could believe that many of those who are planning military action have the same sincere concern about the hopes and aspirations of the Kurdish people. Although I oppose military action, as I am about to outline, I hope that the question of Turkish deployment in the Kurdish areas is well understood by the people who are planning military action, as well as the consequences that might follow.
There is one point on which I agree with the hon. Member for Glasgow, Kelvin (Mr. Galloway) and one on which I disagree with him strongly. The point of agreement is that, without any question, people should understand that this debate is going to be the crucial one as far as war is concerned. The shadow Foreign Secretary said—perhaps this admission would not have been made by the Foreign Secretary—that the resolution before the United Nations and the Government motion are cover resolutions. That is how he described them. I took that to mean that although they do not mention war or military action—even the new UK resolution at the Security Council does not do that and the Government's motion certainly does not do so—if they were passed at the Security Council and here, they would be taken as a green light for military action. No one who votes or does not vote tonight should be under any illusions that this is the opportunity to slow down the process if people want to do that. If that opportunity is not taken, it ain't going to come again.
There is another reason for that which we should understand as well. The procedures of this place do not always allow for the sort of vote that we are fortunate to have this evening. Not for the first time in his fairly short time as Speaker, our Speaker has taken an unusual course in selecting a genuine all-party amendment that gives hon. Members a chance to vote on an issue of principle that goes across the parties. I am proud to speak for my party and for Plaid Cymru in supporting and co-sponsoring the amendment tabled by the right hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith). That type of amendment will not necessarily be allowed to emerge again under our procedures, so let us make no mistake—this is the opportunity for hon.
Members who wish to do so to vote to slow up the march to war.
The hon. Member for Glasgow, Kelvin said some fairly savage things about President Bush. I do not agree. I can understand that view in terms of the policy of the American Administration, but I tend to look at the matter slightly differently. I see that the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) is looking puzzled. He is probably the only Member who was a Member of Parliament when Barry Goldwater ran for
322
President of the United States in 1964. He ran under the argument that America could win a pre-emptive war against the Soviet Union if it was strong enough in nuclear weapons. His slogan was, "In your heart, you know he's right". The Democrat reply was, "In your guts, you know he's nuts". Thankfully for all of us, the Democrats were successful in that election. I am not arguing that that is President Bush's position, but when I listen to Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle and other people who are central to that Administration, the words of the Democrat party in 1964 are very meaningful to me—in my guts I think they are nuts. They are trying to apply a management school theory about dominating companies and markets to international politics. They argue that America must exert its power in every sphere of influence, regardless of any consequences. That argument, which would have been regarded as extremism only a few years ago, now holds sway in key parts of the American Administration.
I differ with the hon. Member for Glasgow, Kelvin on the reason why that argument is central to the Administration. It is due not to a deep-laid plot by George W. Bush, but to the consequences of 11 September and the trauma and fear that has gripped the American people since then. This is not anti-Americanism. America is a country that was founded out of the intellectual strength of the Scottish enlightenment.[Laughter.] I hear some laughs. Hon. Members on both sides of the House should understand where the American constitution and its checks and balances came from. America understands it. The founding fathers would be birling in their graves, to use a Scottish phrase, if they could see what is being done in the name of America and the American constitution in terms of the pre-emptive, aggressive policy that is emanating from the American Administration. It is possible for that policy to become central to the Administration only in an atmosphere of fear.
That is where the Prime Minister is heavily culpable. As the right hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury told the Prime Minister yesterday in a telling intervention, it is the job of a candid friend to tell his friend the truth in times of crisis. That is particularly so in this case given that the friend, America, is gripped in the trauma of the aftermath of 11 September, 18 months ago. The fact that the Prime Minister has failed to do that is his central culpability, because he was in a position to put the brakes on that sort of policy, and he still is in such a position. Unfortunately, however, he has exchanged that position of influence to become a prisoner of the policies that emanate from some of the extreme people in the American Administration. There is no doubt that the Prime Minister is no longer in charge of these events and that events are controlling him. To return to the "Newsnight" interview that I mentioned earlier in an exchange with the Foreign Secretary, the Prime Minister was specific in front of a studio audience about there being one set of circumstances, and one only, in which he would argue for the use of force.
That was if the weapons inspectors said that their process had ended. According to the transcript, the Prime Minister said that if the majority of the Security Council adopted a second resolution and it was blocked by one country's unreasonable veto, he would consider

323
the use of force. It is significant that neither the Prime Minister yesterday nor the Foreign Secretary today was prepared to stand even on that position. The Prime Minister is no longer in control of events; they are controlling him.
Let us consider morality. The Prime Minister is a religious man and I respect that. It does him great credit. I have nothing like his record of church going or observance. However, I, too, have faith and conviction. I believe that if an immoral and unjust war takes place, with thousands of casualties and the spilling of innocent blood, the person responsible for arguing for it will answer one day to a much higher authority than the House of Commons.
4.15 pm
Mr. Roger Godsiff: All hon. Members know that Saddam Hussein is an evil man. He is a brutal dictator who has committed genocide and used poison gas against his people. He launched a war against Iran that resulted in more than 1 million people being killed. He invaded Kuwait and, when he left, caused an environmental disaster by torching the oilfields. I have no doubt that he has weapons of mass destruction and I fully accept that he has not complied with United Nations resolutions. With the rest of the civilised world, I believe that the Iraqi people would be well rid of such a person.
However, do my comments explain the reasons for America and the United Kingdom making a preemptive strike? I regret to say that I am not convinced. I fully support working through the UN, although I can envisage circumstances in which the USA, the United Kingdom or any other country took unilateral action, for example, if they perceived their national interest to be under threat. After 9/11, the civilised world united in its determination to combat and root out international terrorism. We rightly identified al-Qaeda as the main proponent and rightly took action against the Taliban in Afghanistan because they were harbouring that organisation.
Since our action in Afghanistan, we have realised that we failed to obliterate al-Qaeda, and America appears to have lost the plot. Instead of pursuing terrorists, who live in the shadows and kill indiscriminately in the shopping malls of Tel Aviv and the bars of Bali, we are seeking a change of Government in Iraq on the basis that Saddam Hussein is an evil man who will not comply fully with UN resolutions. That is an unconvincing justification for a dangerous course of action.
President Bush referred to Iraq, North Korea and Iran as the axis of evil. What will we do about North Korea, which is ruled by an equally ruthless dictator and also has weapons of mass destruction? Everybody knows that the Chinese will not allow the Americans to interfere in North Korea's affairs. What will we do about Iran?
As I have said previously, 50 per cent. of the electorate in my constituency are Muslims. My support for the American ethos and my belief that, overall, America has been more a force for good than evil in the world does not always win me great support among my Muslim constituents. However, I must tell my many friends in
324
America that I believe that they are about to make a disastrous mistake. With great respect to them, I do not believe that they understand the Islamic world. The current American Administration does not appreciate the consequences in the Muslim world of a pre-emptive strike on Iraq. If America, supported by the United Kingdom, launches a pre-emptive strike against Iraq, Saddam Hussein will overnight become a hero—a martyr—of the Muslim world despite the fact that he is not a hero now because he runs a secularist rather than a fundamentalist regime.
What will be the consequences in adjoining countries? We need to remember that bin Laden comes from the Saudi royal family. He left Saudi Arabia to form the al-Qaeda organisation because he believed that the house of Saud was giving America too much support by allowing it to have bases in a country that is home to the great places of worship for all Muslims. What will happen if a regime change takes place in Iraq and the house of Saud comes under attack from within its own country? Will America commit itself to stationing a large number of troops, for however many years, in Iraq and Saudi Arabia? If so, what will that do to opinion in the Muslim world? What will happen to the Mubarak regime in Egypt? I accept that it is not a pleasant regime, but it is pro-western and greatly vulnerable to attack from within. What will happen to that country?
I strongly support the war against international terrorism, but America, Britain and the rest of the western world would be well advised to give more attention to why international terrorists emerge. They do not suddenly come out of the sky. International terrorists are born in the squalid, teeming refugee camps of Gaza, the west bank and along the Azad-Kashmir border. Young people living in those camps are without a country, a job, a future or any hope. They are vulnerable recruits for those people who say, "You will get your reward in the next world. Just join us in the jihad against America and the west." They will join having been told that America pursues double standards and that, when convenient, will use UN resolutions to justify a pre-emptive strike against Iraq. They will also be told that when, I regret to say, it suits America and other countries in the west, a blind eye is turned to UN resolutions on the building of settlements by the Israeli Government all over the west bank and on India not carrying out a plebiscite to allow the people of Kashmir to determine their own future.
I am not by nature a rebel. It gives me no pleasure to say that I cannot support my Government in the Lobby tonight. I am proud of the enormous amount that they have achieved since coming to power. I do not support or have any love for Saddam Hussein. I want the man to go and to go soon. But—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): order. I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman's time is up.
4.23 pm
John Barrett: Politicians are often accused of being out of touch with the electorate, but I have never felt so much at one with the ordinary man and woman on the street as I felt when we marched together as part of the 1 million who took to the streets on 15 February. Many had been moved to participate in

325
a march for the first time in their lives. Others, like myself, who had been on many marches for a variety of reasons over many years, noticed something very different with that march. It was not only the sheer volume of people who took to the streets or the fact they came from all walks of life, but the strength of their plea to be heard. They wanted the Government to listen to their views. To see a young mother from my constituency with her young child summed up for me how the protest had moved individuals in a way that I had never witnessed before.
This House must show that it is listening to the people of Britain: listening to their concerns, their fears and their hope that a peaceful solution can be found rather than our engaging in war. A war with Iraq could well escalate into a much wider regional conflict, and will surely result in increased terrorist activities in this country, in the United States and elsewhere in the world.
Many who were on the march, and many in the House, believe that the case for war has not yet been proved, that the inspectors should be given more time, and that all other options have not been exhausted. War must always be a last resort. Today's debate may be our last chance to register our concerns in the House before military action starts, and I want to record my view that the Prime Minister and George Bush are wrong. The Prime Minister may well believe absolutely in what he says, but he has not convinced me, he has not convinced many other Members of Parliament, and he has not convinced the vast majority of people out there in the country.
I have been contacted by hundreds of constituents by post, e-mail and telephone. To a man and to a woman, they say that they do not believe a case has been made for going to war. I have no doubt that Saddam Hussein must be disarmed and I would not absolutely rule out the use of force, but, after four years without weapons inspectors, to say that after 11 weeks we must call it a day and go to war is wrong. Hans Blix and the inspectors should have all the time they need. The UN Security Council is not united. One reason is that the pace is being forced by the British and American Governments. Strong-arm tactics and financial inducements will not strengthen any second resolution; they will weaken it.
George Bush has made clear that if there is no second resolution, he will take action anyway. That has left many feeling that the decision has already been made, and that what is happening now is just covering up for the fact that the final troop deployments are not yet in place. Negotiations with Turkey are in their final stages, and today we have heard of RAF jets stuck in Cyprus. The final pieces of the military jigsaw are not yet in place, but they will be in a few weeks, and that is when many expect military action to start.
While other nations are pushing for peace and putting their energy into trying to make the inspections work, what we are seeing from our Government is a push for war, not a push for peace. Recently we have heard much about the moral case for war and the suffering of the Iraqi people—the number who have died over the years during which Saddam has been in power—but the moral case is seriously weakened by the fact that Iraq has obtained deadly pathogens from France, the United States and Germany, including anthrax, gas gangrene and west Nile fever.
326
What happens when the war is over? Who is in the frame for any future administration? Included in the list of potential leading lights in the regime to follow the toppling of Saddam Hussein are people who would make the Butcher of Baghdad look good. According to an article in the Sunday Herald, they include General Nizar Al-Khazraji, who is suspected of leading the chemical attack that killed 5,000 Kurds in Halabja in 1988, and who is alleged by some eyewitnesses to have kicked a Kurdish child to death during the height of Iraqi repression in that year.
The danger of any military action spreading throughout the region is another reason to avoid all-out war if at all possible. If Saddam can involve other countries in any conflict, he will; and the double standards that have been applied to Israel will become even more obvious as the Israeli Government continue actions that, were they taking place in Iraq, would have justified military action for many.
There has been talk of Saddam Hussein's going into exile, but if he went into exile in, say, Sudan, would that not be used as a legitimate reason to take action against that country for harbouring him and, possibly, terrorists? The hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) made a very emotional speech. I agree that if Saddam is toppled he should go on trial, not into a life of luxury.
Saddam's past history has been cited as a reason for taking action now, but many countries—some of which are now our strongest allies—have been at war with us in the past. While a recent past record is important, it is not reason enough to go to war. The war on Iraq is also constantly linked to the war on terrorism. I ask, where is the link? Where is the evidence?
Before we go to war, any Government should have the support of the people and the support of their representatives. Today they will see what their representatives think, but tomorrow we should be aware that the people outside are still not convinced.
4.29 pm
Alan Simpson: For me, one of the most powerful passages in the United Nations charter is not in the detail of any of its chapters but in its opening preamble:
"We the peoples of the United Nations determined to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind".
The preamble did not seek a pretext for other wars, and did not seek to justify a little ritual slaughter when the mood took us. It was a declaration by the international community at the end of the second world war that we had to pursue a path where the avoidance of war and its human consequences had to be a global priority.
Against that background, I regard today's motion and the war rhetoric surrounding it as a low point in contemporary British politics. They mark the disconnection of the House from the society we claim to represent. The realities of the wider world are clear—the case for a war against Iraq remains unproven. I shall therefore vote for the amendment, and against the motion. We should look at the sorry state of our current Parliament. Increasingly, we appear to have a Government who are looking for a pretext for war, rather than its avoidance. We appear to produce

327
dossiers of mass deception, whose claims are dismissed as risible almost as soon as they are released. We have the embarrassment of a Prime Minister whose arguments chase from one discredited case to another in the search for something that will convince the public of the case for a war in which they do not believe. If anything slightly relieves the pain for Labour it is the condition of the shadow Cabinet, whose members appear to have given up the will to live and believe that they can only be redeemed if they offer to bomb earlier and more often. That is not, however, the position of the overwhelming majority of the British public.
I have just returned from a visit to the United States and Canada, where I was part of a citizens weapons inspectorate. We went to the Edgewood research base just outside Washington, where we attempted to ask its personnel for rights of access to inspect the site and for an account of the weapons of mass destruction that they were working on. They openly acknowledged working on anthrax, plague, botulinum, ricin and cholera. If such weapons were found in Iraq, they would immediately become the basis on which President Bush would declare war.
Dr. Julian Lewis rose—
Alan Simpson: I shall join everyone else in saying no to the offer.
All those weapons are illegal under current chemical and biological warfare conventions. That is a measure of discrepancies, if not hypocrisy, in our approach to the role and rights of inspections as a way of stabilising and securing international confidence in the removal of weapons of mass destruction. That site also manufactures non-lethal biochemical weapons, which Defence Secretary Rumsfeld referred to in his testimony to Congress on 5 February, when he acknowledged the US intention to use such weapons in any war on Iraq. Those weapons, too, are illegal under current conventions. Perhaps the most frightening thing for me was not the stark openness of that work but the attitude of the pro-war protesters who followed the inspectors round. Their banners and slogans said much about the popular culture created largely at the behest of the American Administration and the American press. "We tried to give peace a chance and got 9/11," said one. Another said, "Give war a chance." Perhaps the most frightening of all said, "Today Iraq, tomorrow France."
Those were measures of the visceral feelings of gung-ho militarism that characterise the debate taking place in the USA. We ought to think carefully before wandering even partially down that path. Those are President Bush's people, who stood up following the last report of the weapons inspectors and said that the objections made by a succession of countries that did not accept that a convincing case had been made for war were not objections in principle, but the objections of countries holding out for a bigger bribe. It is clear that the US view of the UN is that it is simply a body to be bought or bypassed.
Our view must identify with the 30 million people worldwide who say no, war is not the answer, nor is it acceptable. It is not justified in the current
328
circumstances and it would be a horrendous gift to one group and one group only: al-Qaeda. From the evidence of the past 50 years, we know that containment works and inspection works. That is the basis on which the United Nations has worked at its best. We ought not to dismiss the value of that work.
In relation to Iraq, have we found weapons of mass destruction that threaten to destroy the west? No. Have we had any threat from Iraq to destroy the west? No. In those circumstances, we should listen to our other allies in the United Nations—to Germany, France, Russia and perhaps to China—and to the inspectors. Their claims for more time, rather than more troops, are the voices that we should hear. We need inspections, not invasions.
The west and the UK must find the courage to speak out in favour of the peaceful settlement of international conflict and tension, rather than the presumption that we can drift into a war that would do nothing but scar the entire century. We owe a duty to our children and our society to find the courage to ally ourselves with those whose voices urge a peaceful solution to the issue, not a descent into warmongering.
4.37 pm
Tony Baldry: Understandably, we have heard a great deal this afternoon about the military campaign. In the few minutes available to me, I shall say a few words about the humanitarian campaign. In a statement to the House a few days ago, the Prime Minister said that there needs to be
"a humanitarian plan that is every bit as viable and well worked out as a military plan."—[Official Report, 3 February 2003; Vol. 399, c. 36.]
The Economist recently observed that many aspects of war hanging over Iraq are unpredictable, but one is not—the unusual vulnerability of the civilian population. There are two reasons for that. First, about 60 per cent. of the population, or 16 million people, are 100 per cent. dependent on central Government for basic needs. They survive only because the Government of Iraq provides them with a food ration each month. Secondly, after two wars, decades of mismanagement and 12 years of exacting sanctions, there is no fat to rely on.
It is therefore essential not to see the military campaign and the humanitarian campaign in two separate boxes. As both Kosovo and Afghanistan have recently shown us, it cannot simply be a matter of fighting a military campaign, then announcing "end ex" and starting a humanitarian campaign the next day. Those planning military action must think about the humanitarian consequences of that action, not least how to minimise the impact of conflict on civilians. I emphasise that that is particularly important in Iraq, where huge numbers of people live in abject poverty, many families are clinging on by their fingertips, and 60 per cent. of the population is dependent on the UN oil for food programme.
Any attack on Iraq is bound to involve aerial bombing to take out military infrastructure. How confident can we be that military commanders will seek not to bomb hospitals, residential areas and vital energy sources? Targeting must take account of the vulnerability of the existing infrastructure and the

329
weaknesses of the sanitation and water systems, for example. Every indication is that people in Iraq are just about scraping along, but any sustained disruption of sewerage systems or clean water supplies will almost certainly speedily result in disease, illness and death in large numbers in the civilian population. We have to ensure that everyone involved—the military in particular—thinks through the consequences for the men, women and children on the ground.
There are undoubtedly optimistic scenarios of what might happen, involving a short, well-targeted bombing campaign on key objectives, followed by a dash by coalition forces to seize Baghdad and Basra, the collapse of Iraqi resistance, the surrender of Iraqi troops and speedy regime change. It might be like that. It is to be hoped that any fighting—if, in due course, it comes to fighting—will be the shortest necessary to achieve the desired objectives. But history is littered with optimistic assessments that it would all be over in a matter of weeks by generals and politicians who then found themselves dug in for months or years. Military planners and humanitarian advisers have to plan for all scenarios, not just the most optimistic. I reiterate that any scenario will impact on a civilian population that is in poor shape anyway, and that any disruption of the oil-for-food programme will leave many people without the basic necessities of life. It is right that we should be cautious, because it was not easy to persuade the US military in Afghanistan to have regard to humanitarian considerations. Nine million people there were having to be fed by the World Food Programme before any military campaign began.
It is also important to reflect that this is all happening at a time when there are enormous strains on the international humanitarian system. When the Secretary of State for International Development recently gave evidence on the humanitarian crisis in southern Africa to the Select Committee, she expressed her concern that the scale of humanitarian feeding operations around the world was reaching such a level that she questioned whether the system could cope. Her concerns echoed identical points raised with the Committee only a little while ago by James Morris, the head of the UN World Food Programme. Yesterday, the Prime Minister of Ethiopia gave evidence to the Select Committee. He made it clear that, notwithstanding recent generous commitments of food aid to Ethiopia—including those from the United Kingdom—unless further substantial amounts were provided by June, there would be a serious humanitarian situation in the Horn of Africa.
So there are already monumental food aid requirements in the Horn of Africa, throughout southern Africa and in Afghanistan. It would, therefore, be difficult for the international community to take on a further substantial food programme. There are problems with the funding of the World Food Programme, with the supply of food, and with the capacity of institutions logistically to continue to manage a massive and ever-expanding programme. The political will to do so will also be much more difficult to achieve if the international community is divided. It will be difficult to get co-ordinated European Union action on humanitarian relief when some of the larger EU member states are at considerable variance with others as to the appropriate way forward on Iraq. Countries such as France and Germany do not want to be seen to
330
be preparing for the humanitarian campaign in a conflict to which they are opposed. If there is a conflict, it is essential that the oil-for-food programme continues to operate in the short and medium term.
What thought are our military commanders and political planners giving to the issue of refugees? In the last Gulf conflict, there were an estimated 1.8 million displaced people in Iraq, out of a population of just over 26 million. Unlike in Afghanistan, most people in Iraq live in urban centres. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees estimates that there could be 900,000 refugees—100,000 in need of immediate Assistance—and probably a further 500,000 displaced people in camps on the borders. It is impossible to predict just how many refugees there might be, because there are so many different potential scenarios. The UNHCR and the international community must plan for a range of possibilities and a range of numbers.
In addition to refugees, there will also be large numbers of internally displaced people in Iraq. This prompts another important question. In Afghanistan, the UN Secretary-General appointed Mr. Brahimi as his personal representative. The co-ordination of the humanitarian effort in Afghanistan is clearly under the auspices of the UN and senior UN agencies answerable to an experienced co-ordinator appointed by and answerable to the UN Secretary-General. What is going to happen in Iraq? After any conflict, will the humanitarian effort be co-ordinated by the UN? Numerous, unattributable, press briefings would tend to suggest that the intention is for the President of the United States to appoint a senior general to run Iraq, post-conflict. That would be a mistake. Afghanistan has shown how difficult it is for humanitarian relief agencies to relate to and work with the military, when the military act in any other role than as clearly designated and approved UN peacekeepers—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order.
4.45 pm
Mr. John Hume: This is a time to do a lot of thinking about the future. Our generation is living through the biggest revolution in the history of the world—the technological, telecommunications and transport revolution. As a result, our world is a much smaller place than the world of the past. Therefore, we should recognise that we are in a stronger position to shape that world. As we enter this new century, our primary objective should be to make it the first century in the history of the world in which there is no war and no conflict.
Let us not forget that the victims of every war are the innocent civilians. Some 10 million were killed in the first world war and 40 million in the second world war. If innocent civilians are killed in a war against Iraq, their families will say, "Hussein is right and the terrorists are right. Those really are our enemies." We should be using our energies to create a peaceful and just world. If we use as much energy to do that as we would to fight a war, we would succeed far more quickly.
I ask Americans to remember the philosophies of their founding fathers. The ancestors of the present-day United States were driven from all their former countries by conflict, persecution, starvation and

331
injustice. They decided that they did not want such things to happen in their new land—and we should remember the size of that land and how many states it has. What was their philosophy? It is one that the world needs again today and it is summed up on the American cent as "e pluribus unum". It is also writ large on the grave of Abraham Lincoln and it means that from many, we are one. The essence of our unity is respect for diversity. That is a message of real peace for the world, and I know that because of where I come from. We need respect for diversity and difference, because all conflict, no matter where it is, is about difference, be it of religion, race or nationality. The answer to difference is to respect it, because it is an accident of birth. We must get that message out.
Europe learned that lesson a while later than the United States. Who could have forecast, 50 years ago, during the worst century in the history of world, with two world wars—and 10 million killed in the first and 40 million killed in the second—that the peoples involved would gather together in a united Europe? But they have, and that is the best example in the history of the world of conflict resolution. Therefore, we should study how they did it and send that message to the world. The first principle of the European Union is exactly the same as that of the founding fathers of the United States—respect for difference and diversity—and it is backed up by institutions that respect difference and diversity, including the Council of Ministers, the Commission and the Parliament.
In the European Parliament, they work together in their common interests on areas of agreement rather than disagreement, on socio-economic development. They spill their sweat together, not their blood, and break down the barriers of centuries. That is a philosophy for the world. In today's smaller world, instead of sending soldiers, bombs and guns to kill human beings, we should send that philosophy. Because of the enormous influence of the United States and Britain in that smaller world, we could make a huge impact on it and create the first century in which there is no war and no conflict. If we used our energies to do that instead of in creating war, we would succeed far more quickly.
4.50 pm
Dr. Julian Lewis: I profoundly disagree with what the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) has just said. To suggest that the lesson of the second world war is that one should not go to war is to fly in the face of the real lesson of that war, which is that when faced with dictators one should deal with them sooner rather than later.
What we face is, as always, the problem of democracies when dealing with dictators. I subscribe to the paradox of freedom. The paradox of freedom, sometimes called the paradox of tolerance, is that one must tolerate all but the intolerant, because if one persists in tolerating the intolerant, then the tolerant will disappear, because the conditions for toleration will cease to exist.
Let me say on the question of weapons of mass destruction the following: Iraq has declared that it produced about 8,500 litres of anthrax, which it states it
332
unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991. Iraq has provided little evidence for this production and no convincing evidence for its destruction. There are strong indications that Iraq produced more anthrax than it declared, and that at least some of this was retained after the declared destruction date. It might still exist. Either it should be found and be destroyed under UNMOVIC supervision, or else convincing evidence should be produced to show that it was, indeed, destroyed in 1991.
Those are not my words. They are the words of Dr. Blix in his report to the Security Council as recently as 27 January this year. They did not come from a dissertation. They did not come from a student thesis. They did not even come from a Government dossier. They are fact.
I was rather sad about the refusal by the hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Alan Simpson), who I am sorry to see has already vacated his place, to let me intervene when he was talking about the presence in north America of a biological plant, a plant that he said produces and deals with substances that are banned under the 1972 biological weapons convention. He compared that to the situation in Iraq. I have interesting news for hon. Members. There is a plant like that in this country. It is called Porton Down. Under the provisions of the 1972 biological weapons convention it does what such plants are allowed to do, which is to work on minuscule amounts of toxic substances in order to develop antidotes to them.
Llew Smith: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the United States refuses to allow international inspectors into some of its chemical plants, and is therefore breaking the chemical weapons convention?
Dr. Lewis: I am not aware that the United States is breaking any such convention. I should be very happy to hear specifics from the hon. Gentleman.
What I can say is that it is wholly inappropriate and irresponsible to take a legal, permitted ability of countries that have signed the BW convention, which is to carry out research on small amounts of deadly weapons in order to develop antidotes, and compare it with what Saddam Hussein has done, which is to produce huge quantities of such weapons, use them, lie about them and, even when forced to admit that he had them all along, fail to account properly for what he did with them.
I am surprised by some of the remarks that are made by people who profess to support resolution 1441. In a debate like this I would have expected resolution 1441 to be quoted time and again. I do not think that it has been quoted at all, so I shall briefly quote it now. The resolution decides that Iraq
"has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions"
and provides the
"final opportunity to comply"
not the pre-final, not the pre-pre-final, not the opportunity before the opportunity before the

333
opportunity before the opportunity that might one day, in 12 years' time, be the final opportunity, but the
"final opportunity to comply".
Mr. Salmond: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Dr. Lewis: No, I will not. I am very happy to give way to people who have given way to me.
Mr. Salmond: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Dr. Lewis: No. The resolution requires
"that Iraq cooperate immediately, unconditionally, and actively with UNMOVIC and the IAEA".
What is meant by active co-operation? It is a recognition that there is no prospect whatsoever of inspectors detecting the quantities of chemical and biological weapons that Saddam had to admit were manufactured unless he actively helps them to find them. There is no prospect of more time enabling greater discoveries.
Glenda Jackson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Dr. Lewis: No. The question is whether Saddam will actively assist the inspectors in finding his unaccounted stocks, and the answer to that is clearly in the negative. That is why Saddam is in breach, and why we have to look very carefully at the recommendation that we should continue to give more time. The comparison is made between 11 weeks now and 12 years in the past. The fact is that during every conflict in which this country has engaged, one could have heard arguments analogous to those that we have heard today. Plenty of people argued that it was wrong to take action against the Nazis, until it became so late that the action that had to be taken proved much more costly than that which could have been taken earlier. Had such action been taken earlier, it would have been denounced as unwarranted and pre-emptive.
Mr. Robert N. Wareing rose—
Dr. Lewis: It must be said that in subsequent conflicts and confrontations, many of the very same people who are arguing against action now were arguing against it then. Those who said, in advance of the action that was eventually taken against the Hitlerite regime, that no action was justified get a bad press, because they are now regarded as having had no reasonable arguments. Let me assure you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that if we could revisit the debates that took place in this House in the 1930s, we would hear arguments for appeasement just as sophisticated as those put forward today. Those arguments were wrong then, and they are wrong now. It will be a grave mistake if people think that the cause of peace is served by always avoiding conflict. Sometimes, the only way to bring about peace is to face up to the need for conflict, and this is one of those occasions.
4.58 pm
Donald Anderson: We are now in a phoney peace. War drums are rolling, and I approach the next few weeks with a deep sense of foreboding, but
334
also with a great deal of respect for those in my party and in the House generally—experts, former diplomats—who come to a different conclusion, including even my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Kelvin (Mr. Galloway), who made a passionate speech but offered not a scintilla of criticism of Saddam Hussein.
It is clear to me that the threat of force has indeed produced some results. The concessions made by Saddam Hussein just before the publication of Dr. Blix's report were predictable and, indeed, predicted. The fear is that a series of future benchmarks would equally lead to some grudging and minimal concessions, just before such reports were made. It is clear that force is the only language that Saddam Hussein understands, but there are many uncertainties. Different judgments will be made about the very grave cost-benefit analysis that has been made. I therefore view with respect those who take a different view. I am much less happy with those on either side of the argument who have absolutist convictions.
How did we get to this point? First, the pressure on Saddam Hussein did not begin on 8 November last year. He was defeated after he invaded Kuwait. There was a ceasefire resolution. He remains in breach of that resolution. Over the period of the 1990s, Saddam Hussein prevaricated, concealed, lied and obstructed the work of the inspectors.
I pose two critical questions. Why not give Saddam Hussein more time? Why act now?
The obvious retort to the first question is, time for what? If Dr. Blix asks for more time when he appears before the Security Council. in my judgment he should be given it. However, inspections will have limited relevance without proactive co-operation from the regime.
This is not a treasure hunt. The test is whether the Saddam Hussein regime is co-operating with the weapons inspectors. Resolution 1441 was wholly unambiguous. It required a complete declaration. Clearly, there were major gaps in the dossier produced on 8 December. Failure to comply and co-operate fully would be a further material breach.
There have been 12 years of diplomacy. It is 12 years to the day since Saddam Hussein ordered his troops to retreat from Kuwait. There have been years of inspection and sanctions. How long can that go on? Resolution 1441 talked of
"immediate, unconditional and active co-operation".
Do any colleagues in the House believe that what has happened over the four months since 1441 was passed amounts to
"immediate, unconditional and active co-operation"?
The second question that I posed was, why now? Clearly there is valid concern about extending the doctrine of pre-emptive self-defence. Its implications for international law are potentially very dangerous indeed. The US has been only too ready to push the doctrine to the limits. There has not been sufficient debate on the subject, but we have to accept that weapons of mass destruction pose new challenges that current international law does not meet.
Mr. Salmond: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Donald Anderson: No.

335
If Saddam Hussein were to obtain nuclear capacity—and he came fairly close to doing so—and then invaded Kuwait, he could, from an almost impregnable position, challenge the international community to dislodge him. North Korea is relatively invulnerable now, for similar reasons. Equally, Saddam Hussein's hostility to the west means that there is a very serious danger that, at some time, he could pass chemical and biological weapons to terrorist networks.
Would any war be a just war? As a Christian, I welcome the contributions from the archbishops. It is right that they should draw our attention to just war principles, but that invites questions about their role. Those principles are there to make us think morally, but they have certain ambiguities. The archbishops acknowledge that those who must make the decisions have access to information that better enables them to answer questions such as, "Have all other options been exhausted? Will a war be effective?" In the final analysis, we are dealing not with absolutes but with judgments, based on the available facts, including intelligence facts.
Is war inevitable in the next few weeks? We have left Saddam Hussein a number of exit doors, and thus far he has refused to use them. The tempo of Dr. Blix is increasing. He has demanded that the missiles be destroyed. How will Saddam Hussein respond to that test? What has happened to the 1.5 tonnes of VX agents, the 3,000 tonnes of precursor chemicals and the more than 30,000 special munitions? We know that the Iraqis are normally punctilious in their record keeping. If they have destroyed those munitions, fine, there must be records and evidence, but none has been produced in the past four months.
As for the scientists, the human factor is the weak link. Of course there is an aura of extreme intimidation of those scientists. If there is nothing to hide, why has Saddam Hussein gone to such trouble to prevent the scientists from being interviewed openly?
How should we operate in the next few weeks? We have to realise what is at stake: of course, it is the credibility of the UN, which has given a final opportunity. There can be no debate about the word "final". What should happen? Clearly, we have to focus on disarmament, not on regime change. We have to maintain maximum pressure, and not be forced by a military timetable.
Finally, my view is that the Prime Minister took a strategic decision to stand alongside President Bush, and that has had positive effects. It was a courageous decision. It has given my right hon. Friend unique leverage, which should now be used to ensure that diplomatic options are pursued to an end. War is truly the last resort, but after 12 years, that "final opportunity" cannot go on indefinitely.
5.6 pm
Patrick Mercer: I should like to pay tribute not only to the right hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) whom I follow in the debate, but to the enormously powerful speech made by the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), who is sadly no longer with us.[Interruption.] Anyone who could doubt the
336
moral elements of those remarks would clearly be challenged to make a more arresting or clearer case for what has been going on in Iraq at the moment.
During the last Gulf war, I, as usual, was stuck in Northern Ireland, but I saw many of my colleagues disappear to fight in the Gulf, with a spring in their step and with a light heart. They felt that they were going to be involved in a cause that was supported by the nation and a war that was justified and had moral, religious and political backing. Most of them, of course, had not seen battle before, but when they came back they were a different generation. Very few of them were killed in action. Some were killed, sadly, by the American air force, and a very few were killed by the enemy.
I am conscious of the fact that I am in the company of my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent (Hugh Robertson), who was actually there, but I do not think that any of them who had killed a fellow man approached life in the same way again.[Interruption.] I hear the word "good" coming from the Labour Benches—quite right. Any hon. Member who has seen the pictures that have been shown recently of the killing on the Basra road cannot doubt what the consequences of war are.
I can clearly recall teaching a young naval officer at the staff college who had had the miserable opportunity of firing eight missiles into Iraqi gunboats. He freely admitted that the first one was challenging. There was a sense of elation when his missile struck home, and every member of the crew was killed. When he got back to his ship, the reaction began to set in. By the time that he was flying against his sixth, seventh and even eighth target, he was heartily sick of the whole prospect.
No hon. Member wants war, and the House needs to remember that, if we go to war, some of our young men and women will not come back, and probably tens of thousands of our enemies—I use the term advisedly—will die in this war. Some of them will be guilty, some innocent.
To that end, after much thought and much soul searching, despite the Government's wholly inconsistent arguments, I have come to believe that war has got to be credibly threatened, that the forces have got to be put in place, and that nothing except a cohesive and unified approach to war may allow peace to prevail.
I referred to the inconsistent arguments. Where has the argument about terrorism gone? Until a few weeks ago, it was one of the linchpins of the Government's case. Today, interestingly, no Front-Bench Member mentioned it. One or two speeches have referred to terrorism, and it is interesting to note that, without doubt, the events of 11 September have caused America to think in the way she is thinking at the moment. Let us think about this: although Australia helped in the campaign in Afghanistan, what really impelled that country to stand firmly behind the United Kingdom and the United States were the events in Bali.
So far this country has remained relatively untouched by such terrorism. I ask the House to remember exactly what happened 10 days or so ago. There was a major alert. For the first time in 10 years, light tanks were seen at Heathrow airport, troops were patrolling fly lines, and it was clear that there was a severe threat. Let us bear in mind the fact that, so far, in this country, only one policeman has been killed in the war on terrorism.

337
The House is naïve, however, if it does not remember that our intelligence agencies cannot give us the clear and unequivocal evidence necessary.
I do not believe that Saddam Hussein poses an imminent threat to his neighbours, to surrounding countries or to British possessions overseas. I am convinced, however—I may be alone in saying this—that he is behind much of the terrorist activity that goes on throughout the world. I believe, as I have said previously, that the House is unnecessarily hung up on the name bin Laden. I would not for one moment try to suggest that there is a direct connection between 11 September and Baghdad. Let us look again, however, at the evidence that Mr. Powell produced of the link between Baghdad and other terrorist groups that are active inside this country. Let us read between the lines and see exactly what the intention of this tyrant with his weapons of mass destruction is. It cannot be stated openly, and I have challenged the Government on several occasions to prove the link. They have so far been unsuccessful, but I beg the House to understand that this threat is imminent and it is one that we have not yet experienced, despite this nation's understanding of the campaigns of the IRA and other terrorist organisations.
I end on this note: if we are to avoid war, we must try to be unified in our credible threat of force. The regime with which we are dealing is an evil one, which is bent on destruction. I fear that we must accept that, as we pursue this course, we will be more and more vulnerable to the sort of terrorism that I have mentioned. We must not be cowed or bullied, however, and we must stand up to terrorists as well as tyrants; only by being unified can we succeed.
5.14 pm
Mr. Win Griffiths: Like others who are waiting to be called to speak, I have listened to every speech and have tried to understand the way in which people have been reading between the lines. Although the sentiments of many hon. Members who spoke to the amendment are compatible with my own, I differ from them in my understanding of what the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have said.
Some hon. Members have had virulent words to say about George Bush but not about Saddam Hussein. I understand their fears and concerns—perhaps not those to do with George Bush, but certainly those to do with people around him, such as Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Some mornings, I have got up and thought, "My God. We're going to war today." There is tension because we could, at any time, find ourselves dragged into a war.
I shall vote for the motion this evening. I have been asked to take note of the Command Paper, which is a factual and straightforward document. It reminds us that the story began in 1991—in particular with paragraphs 7 to 14 of part C of resolution 687. Had that resolution been followed at the time, the Government of Iraq would have reported in full on its weapons of mass destruction.
Mr. Mike Wood: Would my hon. Friend confirm that resolution 687 also calls for the
338
creation of a weapons-of-mass-destruction-free zone in the middle east, which would entail the end of Israel's nuclear arsenal?
Mr. Griffiths: Of course I will confirm that. Having read the resolution, I am not surprised by my hon. Friend's point. However, it was Saddam Hussein who launched an unprovoked attack on Kuwait, so the world community was justified in wanting to see his weapons of mass destruction destroyed. Under resolution 687, the UN Secretary-General and the Security Council were given 45 days to set up a special commission, and a further 120 days to lay out the process of verification of the report made by Saddam Hussein. We know that by 1999, after a great deal of harassment, the inspectors decided that they could not carry on with their work and withdrew.
In the meantime, there was the no-fly zone policy, which provided for containment. It seemed to me that Saddam Hussein was quite happy with that. It left him, his family and his collaborators in power, living a life of wealth and luxury that the vast majority of his citizens could not even begin to dream about; and it meant that he was able to terrorise and kill people as he pleased, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) graphically described. Thousands died every year in a state that did not comply with a United Nations resolution that could have solved the problem. The resolution could also have solved other problems in the wider middle east, by creating a nuclear-free zone. I think that all of us would like to see that.
At the outset of this debate, the Foreign Secretary reassuringly said that there would be another vote in this House at, or around, the time that the second resolution was being put to the United Nations. I also got a clear feeling that there would be a vote before we went to war. I will support the motion tonight, but there should be a second United Nations resolution and a vote in this House to keep the pressure on Saddam Hussein. There is a possibility of sorting out this terrible démarche peacefully. However, there are moments when my heart begins to stop because of the actions of, in particular, the people around George Bush, who would lead us into a war.
Several speakers have deliberately overlooked a crucial point: the inspectors still have an important role in reporting to the United Nations about the credibility or otherwise of their efforts in Iraq. Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said:
"If Saddam is willing genuinely to co-operate, the inspectors should have up to July, and beyond July—as much time as they want."—[Official Report, 25 February 2003; Vol. 400, c. 125.]
With those words echoing in my mind, I am happy to support the Government in the knowledge that we shall have further opportunities to debate the issue. If Dr. Blix reports that he is receiving co-operation from Saddam Hussein's regime, he will be given the time that he needs to carry out the inspections and to reveal the weapons of mass destruction. We can be thankful that the issue has been pushed to this point.
Like many people, I believe that the consequences of any war are incredibly difficult to judge. I have been involved in encouraging efforts to find a resolution to the Christian-Muslim conflict in Indonesia, where people are deeply fearful that a war in Iraq could result

339
in a total upset of the work being done to try to maintain good relations between Muslims and Christians in that country. The Government of Indonesia believe that it would be extremely difficult to control extremists and prevent them from getting the upper hand there. We already have the experience of the Bali bombing.
There is a tremendous amount at stake in the debate and the votes that follow it. However, from what my right hon. Friends the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister have said—particularly from what the Prime Minister said yesterday—I believe that the inspectors will have the time to resolve the problem peacefully. In that context, I am very happy to support the Government tonight.
5.22 pm
Mrs. Patsy Calton: The Prime Minister's position last July when he first talked of supporting President Bush in regime change in Iraq was followed by an apparent failure to recognise the growing public disquiet at what is effectively a headlong rush to a preemptive strike on Iraq. The world does not feel a safer place than it did last July.
I am disgusted—I know that my constituents are, too—by the propagandist manoeuvrings to which we as a people and as a Parliament have been subject. It does not matter how often the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Defence and the Foreign Secretary mouth the words "weapons of mass destruction", "anthrax" and "VX"; so far, none has been found and no intent to use them has been displayed.
Yesterday, I asked the House of Commons Library for a briefing note. While the Prime Minister continues to speak of weapons of mass destruction, it is important that we examine the scientific evidence for the likelihood of their being there. The Library says that
"it is impossible to completely prevent the deterioration of chemicals regardless of the environmental and storage precautions taken."
Dr. Julian Lewis: What about anthrax?
Mrs. Calton: I shall be coming to anthrax in a moment.
The Library briefing continues:
"Thus water contamination can be a problem, even if the available water is very small. Fluctuating temperatures that cause condensation can cause a problem."
Various obstacles were encountered in ensuring the stability of chemical and biological agents and preventing their deterioration even when the United States, the Soviet Union and the United Kingdom had their own chemical and biological weapons programmes. In some instances, the addition of a stabiliser to a nerve agent or other chemical agents to prevent decomposition or deterioration can lengthen their lifetime.
"The British Government alleged in its dossier on Iraq's WMD programmes that Iraq had the knowledge and capability to add stabiliser, although there are question marks as to whether Iraq actually succeeded in deploying such a capability."
Those are not my words, but those of the Library.
Undoubtedly, by the time of the Gulf war in early 1991, Iraq had developed advanced chemical and
340
biological weapons programmes, but few sources believe that Iraq continued to produce such weapons during the 1990s while the UN inspection process was under way, even though the existence of an offensive biological weapons programme came to light only in 1995. Therefore, between 1991 and 1998, Iraq would have been dependent on existing stocks produced prior to 1991, which would have deteriorated to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the nature of the agent in question. Thus the main question mark over Iraq's current capability centres on whether it resumed the production of chemical and biological weapons following the departure of the United Nations Special Commission in December 1998.
Glen Rangwala, an Iraq analyst at Cambridge university, has compiled views on Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction capabilities. His website examines the claims for each of the various weapons and makes very interesting reading. He says:
"If Iraq had a stockpile of chemical and biological weapons in 1998, it must consist of items produced prior to 1991. Not even the British government claims that Iraq was engaged in the active production of chemical or biological weapons in the period of weapons inspections (1991 to 1998)".
Mrs. Louise Ellman: Will the hon. Lady tell us whether the person whose work she is quoting is a scientist or a political academic whose main interest is the politics of the west bank?
Mrs. Calton: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. I understand that the academic in question has a scientific background, but I would be very happy to ensure that she gets the full details of the information that I have. It would certainly be very surprising if he were simply an analyst without any scientific background.
Glen Rangwala goes on to deal with anthrax. I asked the Library about anthrax because the Government have always indicated that anthrax is measured in litres and I was interested in that point. It seems that Iraq has almost always deployed anthrax as wet anthrax. In those circumstances, it is extremely unlikely that that anthrax is still a weapons-grade material. There have been arguments about the storage of anthrax, which is why we need weapons inspectors to examine the situation. A report published on 9 September 2002 states:
"wet anthrax from … the 1989–90 period—if stored properly—would still be infectious."
None the less, it would have to be stored properly, and the suggestion that it can be moved around is very difficult to support.
The document goes on to deal with sarin and cyclosarin, and says that both those chemicals would have deteriorated rapidly. US experts have considered chemical warfare agents that are less than 50 per cent. pure to be militarily ineffective. Indeed, the CIA has said that it is extremely unlikely that those materials are more than 18 per cent. pure.
I understand that my time is short, so I shall make my point. We are talking about weapons of mass destruction that involve chemical and biological agents. The weapons inspectors must be in there to see whether indeed those materials still exist. If they do not exist, and

341
everything has been produced since 1998, then yes, there is an issue, but it is not clear that there is an issue in terms of weapons of mass destruction. Until we are absolutely certain about the way forward—about whether we are talking about old deteriorated weapons of mass destruction or ones that have been made more recently—we should certainly not be going to war.
5.30 pm
Mr. Mohammad Sarwar: I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this very important debate.
It is important to re-emphasise that those of us who are opposed to war in this House and across our nation are not friends of Saddam Hussein. We were against him when he invaded Iran, we opposed him when he invaded Kuwait and we spoke out against him when he used chemical weapons against his own people. Unfortunately, the UK and US Governments supported and armed him in the 1980s. I am surprised that no apology was forthcoming from Conservative Front Benchers for supporting Saddam Hussein when he used chemical weapons against his own people. The American Administration is extremely well informed about Iraq's weaponry. As The Scotsman pointed out last Friday, Donald Rumsfeld probably still has the receipts. Like many opponents of military action, I am proud to say that we have been friends of the Iraqi people over two decades of Saddam's rule and we remain their friends today. We are concerned about the tens of thousands of lives at risk through an attack on Iraq. That is the real moral issue that we must all face.
The overwhelming majority of people in Britain support us in sharing that sceptical view. In my constituency, my party membership is unanimously opposed to war, including the former Member of Parliament for Govan and Cabinet Minister Bruce Millan. Among the general public, people from all walks of life are openly talking about opposition to war, including Govan's most famous son, Sir Alex Ferguson. Given that we have seen more than 70,000 people gather in Glasgow alongside 1 million in London to demonstrate their opposition to war, I must ask my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench if they are listening to the people of Scotland and of Britain. I have not found anyone outside this House—no one among the real people whom we seek to represent—who is in favour of war. People here and around the world are clearly against war. There is no groundswell of support for military action.
The 52 African Governments expressed their opposition at their recent summit. If Al Gore had been elected President by the Supreme Court Judges instead of George W. Bush, we would have an American Administration opposed to war. Our own policy on Iraq demonstrates that the Government are not at the heart of Europe, but in the heart of President George Bush. The policies of our key European allies, led by President Chirac and Chancellor Schroder, are more in line with British opinion than my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.
The French President expressed that clearly when he said,
"there is no reason … to change our logic, which is the logic of peace and switch to a logic of war".
342
I do not doubt my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister's good intentions but I disagree profoundly with his support for President Bush. I am suspicious of the genuine motive for the American position. Saddam Hussein is as great a monster today as he was 20 years ago. The only difference is that he was our monster then.
Iraq has the largest oil reserves in the world today. The American Administration is brimming with oil interests. Almost every key member, from President Bush downwards, has been heavily involved in the oil industry. The United States should not try to buy support in the United Nations Security Council. The 15 nations should be given enough objective evidence to reach a fair and independent assessment of the situation in Iraq.
The international coalition is being built with bribery and by bullying smaller nations such as Chile and Cameroon. That starkly contrasts with the joining of forces to repel Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. The business press always gives the bottom line on what is really happening. Yesterday, the Financial Times reported that America was preparing to pay a high price for support in its bargaining with Turkey. The Financial Times stated that
"this time America's allies are waiting to be bought off",
and that the cost would be dear in "hard cash" and "IOUs".
It is sad to see America's loyal ally, Turkey, "haggling furiously". From a first US offer of $2 billion to $3 billion and an initial Turkish demand for $92 billion, it appears that a settlement of $16 billion has been reached. Is that any way to pull a stable international coalition together? Dr. Mahathir bin Mohamad, the Prime Minister of Malaysia, puts matters more starkly. He believes that it is
"no longer a war against terrorism, it is in fact a war to dominate the world".
I recently spoke to Americans who opposed military action. They made it clear that their biggest problem is not President Bush but my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. If he did not support United States policy, any backing for war would collapse across the Atlantic. Those who argue that President Bush would go to war alone, without our Prime Minister's support, are wrong. President Bush needs Prime Minister Blair to sell the war in the United States. That is shown in the efforts to prove a tenuous link between al-Qaeda and Saddam, based on the presence of an al-Qaeda group in northern Iraq. It is disappointing that the fair-minded Colin Powell could present that to the United Nations as evidence.
We all know that al-Qaeda terrorists operate in Britain, the United States and many other nations. Clearly, that does not mean that our Government or any other support al-Qaeda. The claim has no credibility. Saddam and Osama bin Laden are implacable opponents. They oppose each other as much as President Bush opposes them both. We should not look for a spurious link to terrorism as an excuse for war against Iraq.
The UN weapons inspectors are in Iraq for a reason. The international community sent Dr. Blix and the skilled inspectors to do a job. They should be allowed the time that they need to complete it.

343
I end with a quote from the leader comment in The Guardian today:
"To go to war now would be to act without the freely given consent of the vast majority of nations; without the support of key allies; without a legally unambiguous mandate; without just cause, and against the wishes of the people of the west and the Muslim world."
I shall vote for the amendment.
5.39 pm
Bob Spink: Like the hon. Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Connarty), I spent last week in Iraq. We visited the Iraqi Parliament, refugees and hospitals. The Iraqi Kurds asked us to speak for them when we returned. They support the Prime Minister's moral policy but they asked us to raise some key questions.
The first is that Turkish troops must, at all costs, be kept out of Iraqi Kurdish territories unless the Kurds invite them, which is extremely unlikely. Their incursion would be dangerous, destabilising and unnecessary. Secondly, the Kurdish people need more specific protection during the run-up to, and during the prosecution of any war. For instance, they need gas masks. Thirdly, we must keep the period of interim military governance of Iraq very short and hand over to Iraqi Opposition leaders as soon as Saddam's murderous and evil regime falls.
Jeremy Corbyn: I am aware that the hon. Gentleman was in Kurdistan last week. Did he get any sense of the fact that an agreement had been reached with Turkey to leave the Kurdish autonomous region alone, or is the opposite the case and the 20,000 Turkish troops on the border are poised to invade when the Americans invade from the south?
Bob Spink: The hon. Gentleman puts his finger on an important point. The Prime Minister of Iraqi Kurdistan is fearful that Turkish troops will go into Kurdistan, which he thinks will be extremely damaging and destabilising. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that.
The fourth key issue is that we need to keep supplies of food and medicine going into Iraqi Kurdistan during any conflict period to help the millions who depend on them. In particular, we must continue aid immediately after any conflict finishes. Fifthly, we must get the oilfor-food money flowing properly under UN resolution 986 and stop the hold ups and possible corruption of that programme. Sixthly, we must assist Iraq postSaddam to establish a federal state that is based on a parliamentary democracy with an autonomous Kurdish region. The Kurdish people do not now seek independence. Instead, they want to operate within a federal Iraq, with the oil reserves managed at a federal level and shared equitably between the regions. Finally, they hope that our Government will encourage the Turkish authorities to allow the 150 international journalists who are on the border in Turkey to pass into north Iraq so that they can see what is going on. That is in keeping with European standards and Turkey is holding them up.
344
We visited a refugee camp of 50,000 internally displaced people where thousands of families were still living in mud huts and tents. We met a family that had been thrown out of their home in Kirkuk by Saddam only two weeks earlier under his Arabisation ethnic cleansing programme. They suffered the sort of abuses that the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) so eloquently outlined. Anyone who thinks that Saddam is safe in his box should have been with me to hear the tale of that family and to see the horrendous harm and devastation reaped on them by Saddam.
We also visited the Salahaddin university, which is close to Saddam's front-line army, and held meetings with lecturers and many English-speaking students. When we asked the students whether they thought that Saddam had chemical weapons and would use them, they stood up and shouted, "Of course." They thought it na?ve of me even to ask. They said that some of them had not slept for five nights because they were worried that Saddam would retaliate by using chemicals against them. People were trying to make improvised gas masks from plastic bags and electrical insulation tape.
The students were in no doubt that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction and, given half the chance, would use them on the Kurds again, causing the unimaginably terrible consequences that they experienced before. They wanted our protection, but in a show of hands voted unanimously for Saddam's regime to be removed as quickly and cleanly as possible for their safety. They were entirely in step with the other Iraqi Kurds that we met. Other questions that we put to a formal vote to the students, who are the future of Iraq, revealed that they think that war to remove Saddam is justified because, on balance, it would save thousands of innocent lives. However, they need our protection during such a war.
We visited the Freedom hospital in Arbil, which has cut its operations to only 25 per cent. in preparation for the expected war casualties. We saw doctors and nurses standing by empty beds, waiting. The hospital is stockpiling medicines and surgical equipment as part of a co-ordinated plan to deal with the casualties of that war. Its staff know that casualties will be forthcoming, and accept that.
Mr. Salmond: The hon. Gentleman's personal experience of Kurdistan is very telling, but he will have observed that the amendment is supported by the hon. Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Connarty), who accompanied him on his visit.
Bob Spink: The hon. Member for Falkirk, East will speak for himself, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that when he accompanied me to Iraq he opposed the Prime Minister's action while I was in favour of it, and that he seemed to change his mind on the basis of what he encountered during the visit.
Along with many others, those at the Freedom hospital provided evidence that the UN resolution 986 oil for food money had not been flowing through properly. We met Prime Minister Nechirwan Barzani, and sent a plea for help from him to our Prime Minister in the form of a videotape. We delivered it to the Prime Minister yesterday. We spoke at the Parliament, and listened carefully to messages from the democratically elected representatives of the Iraqi Kurds. I have now delivered most of those messages.

345
It was clear to us that the people of Iraqi Kurdistan are battle-hardened and battle-ready. They want to remove Saddam's evil dictatorship, which has slaughtered so many of them; but they need to be reassured that if a conflict is initiated they will be given protection, because at present they feel rather like sitting ducks. They suspect that Saddam will try to throw chemical weapons at them as soon as he knows that war is inevitable, and they want us to do the job properly this time.
As is the case with many other Members, this is the most difficult issue with which I have had to deal during my time as a parliamentarian, but the bottom line as regards morality is absolutely clear to me. If taking action would save more lives than doing nothing—as the Iraqi Kurds themselves believe—we must have the moral courage to take action.
5.47 pm
Mr. Tony Lloyd: The most impressive speech I have heard so far was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), although my conclusions are very different from hers. She spoke very movingly about the real issues, and the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) spoke in similar vein.
We must be clear about what is being proposed by both the Americans and the British through United Nations action. It is not regime change; it is the removal of weapons of mass destruction. There is a world of difference. This is not simply a narrow legal point: it is a very important technical and moral point, and it ultimately concerns where we will leave the world at the end of it all. If we are to talk of the need for regime change, we must bear in mind that there are many regimes in the world that we shall have to ask the United States and our own Government to investigate. Sadly, cruelty and barbarity are not the preserve of the odious Iraqi regime.
Let me explain why my conclusions are different from those of my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley. We know that during the last Gulf war some 100,000 people died as a direct or indirect consequence of military action. I believe that any military intervention driving all the way to Baghdad will cost more lives, both directly and indirectly. The aid agencies—the nongovernmental organisations—are extremely concerned about the fragility of the infrastructure, which suggests that the death toll post-conflict, even with a military structure designed to bring in humanitarian aid, will be far higher than the death toll in Afghanistan, for instance, or the death toll in the aftermath of the last Gulf war. There is therefore a moral case for dealing with Saddam's brutality against his own people, and it cannot be wiped out by saying that going to war is the easy and obvious solution.
Mr. Michael Clapham: Does my hon. Friend agree that in recent regime changes, such as those in Chile and Nicaragua, bad regimes have been replaced with worse regimes?
Mr. Lloyd: My hon. Friend makes a good point. It is important that those who advocate regime change examine the consequences.
346
Exactly what is the evidence for the threat that Iraq now poses to the rest of the world? Not many years ago. the Foreign Office and Downing street, now briefing on the need for action, were briefing Ministers—I do not think that I am breaching the Official Secrets Act—on the success of weapons inspections and our ability through containment and deterrence to maintain downward pressure on Saddam and Baghdad. I appreciate that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, who is currently on the Front Bench, is not going to respond to the debate, but perhaps she will pass on my concerns. We need to know when and why that advice changed, as that is fundamental to the reasons why we are threatening to go to war against Iraq. Frankly, there is no evidence for urgent action to prevent the proliferation of terrorist groups. Proliferation is less likely to occur in Iraq than in Russia, where the security of nuclear supplies is grossly inadequate. Our own Government and other Governments—the Americans are an honourable exception—have done almost nothing about the security of Russian nuclear supplies.
If we are serious about non-proliferation, let us start with Russia, and provide it with assistance. Or we could look at North Korea, which has been a proliferator and has a programme to create weapons of mass destruction and the technology to deliver them. The United States rightly drew the conclusion that military action would be the wrong way to resolve the situation in North Korea. It is important that we learn those lessons, as the House has got to know why we are taking one route in respect of North Korea and another in respect of Iraq. Some of my hon. Friends mocked when one of our colleagues talked about that the probability that military action would make the world more unstable and terrorism more likely. However, I well remember, even if they do not, that during the invasion of Kuwait pictures of Saddam were held up by dispossessed Palestinians. I condemn their actions, but we would be foolish and naïve not to realise that any invasion of Iraq will act as a recruiting ground for global terrorism. We ignore that at our peril.
At the moment, military action would be inhuman and cannot be justified as the moral war that a number of Members, particularly Opposition Members, have discussed. It would make the world less stable for our own citizens and other people. We must therefore examine very carefully the lurch to war. Can inspection and containment work? In the early 1990s, weapons inspections were successful, and resulted in the destruction of weapons. It is important that we give the inspectors the opportunity to carry out the work that we have asked them to undertake, and that we do not curtail it artificially. If we do so, the suspicion of people around the world that this war was pre-ordained, perhaps even pre-ordered, will be confirmed, and it will be impossible to convince the Arab world and people throughout the world that there was ever any intention to resolve the issue by anything other than military action.
This country has far too much to lose to be bounced into a war at the request of another nation, even at the request of such a strong and good ally as the United States. I strongly urge our Government and the world community to maintain the pressure on Saddam, to maintain the threat of military action, and to maintain

347
the inspection regime. However, a lurch to war would be at the cost of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and potentially of many of our own citizens, and of a world that would be massively less stable in the future.
Mr. Galloway: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Although I am second to none in my admiration for my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, is it not extraordinary that no Minister from either the Ministry of Defence or the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is on the Front Bench to listen to this truncated debate, in order properly to reply when they sum up?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): The hon. Gentleman has expressed his feeling, but he knows that the occupant of the Chair is not responsible for who is present in the Chamber and who would answer a debate.
5.56 pm
Mr. Robert Walter: That was an excellent point of order. I hope that somebody is scurrying along the Corridors to find a Minister.
Whatever is said in the debate, one thing is clear in my mind: if the time comes for British troops to go into action, they must have our full and unequivocal support. The debate today is about whether that time has come. It is not, as a number of hon. Members have said, about the integrity of the President of the United States of America. It is about the integrity of British foreign policy.
The commitment of British lives to the defence of our nation and to the halting of blatant atrocities is in our history. The campaign in Afghanistan to seek out al-Qaeda, its leader Osama bin Laden and the Taliban regime that nurtured them, was a justified cause. But there is unfinished business in that country still. We have liberated the poppy farmers and the drug smugglers who now supply 90 per cent. of the heroin on our streets.
This debate is about Iraq. There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein is an evil dictator with scant regard for human rights. There is no doubt that in the past he has used chemical weapons against his own people. We know from the run-up to the last Gulf war that he sought an albeit crude delivery mechanism for his weapons. It is clear that, along with at least 10 other dubious regimes in the world, he would like to possess nuclear weapons.
Despite the Prime Minister's claims of "linkage", there is no evidence that Saddam has assisted al-Qaeda. There are Governments with whom we have good relations who have given much greater comfort to those evil terrorists. We await the evidence of the weapons inspectors that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction. If he possesses them, the evidence is clear that the range of any of his delivery mechanisms would be a threat to his near neighbours, most of whom seem totally unconvinced of the need for the war at the present time.
Opinion polls seem to suggest that the British people are unconvinced of the need for war. The letters, e-mails and lobbying from my constituents show me that there is severe disquiet in Dorset, as elsewhere, about this
348
venture. In 1939 the case for war was clear and the people were in support. Hitler was an evil expansionist dictator who had to be restrained and defeated. In 1982 the decision to remove Argentine troops by force from the Falklands had the support of the British people. In 1990 the invasion of Kuwait was a clear act of aggression that had to be rectified by the use of force, and the British people agreed. There is, at this time, no clear act of aggression, and no invasion of another nation's territory. The British peoplei—in fact, the peoples of the democratic, civilised world—remain unconvinced that we cannot rectify breaches of UN resolutions by peaceful means.
Mr. Wilkinson: Is my hon. Friend suggesting that we should go to war by opinion poll? That is really what his argument implies. How can he exclude the strong support that the President of the United States has for the action that he proposes?
Mr. Walter: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. I would never suggest that we should go to war by opinion poll. I do suggest, however, that the actions of the Government should have the consent of the people before they are enacted.
I want to move on to a more important point, which is that one quarter of the British Army has now been committed to the Gulf region for a war. They are the sons, daughters, husbands and wives of loyal, patriotic British people—parents and partners who have just pride in their loved ones who are going off to war. Like most Members of the House, I am too young to have known war, but, for the first time, I am one of those parents who will see one of their children enter the theatre of war. Along with tens of thousands of other British parents, I have seen a child of mine leave these shores to fight a war in a far-off land. My daughter is one of the small band of Army surgeons who are already in the Gulf for a war that now seems unstoppable.
It may be the nature of our modern democracy, but I, as the elected representative of 75,000 citizens, find it inconceivable that I will not have the chance to vote for or against this war. I am no pacifist, but I have spent my entire life believing in the politics of peace. I would love to see the removal of Saddam Hussein for the sake of the Iraqi people, but I would also like to see a host of other regimes disappear—in Burma, North Korea, Libya, Saudi Arabia and Zimbabwe, to name just a few. In justifying this form of pre-emptive action, parallels are being drawn with Nazi Germany. They are spurious. I will support an attack on Iraq if Saddam Hussein is shown to possess offensive weapons of mass destruction that pose a threat to the civilised world. Such support will not be given lightly, and must be bolstered by an affirmative resolution both at the United Nations and in the House of Commons.
I have signed and will support the amendment tabled in the name of the right hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith). It sends a clear message to the Government that we are not yet convinced that the time has come to commit the lives of British troops, or to wreak death on the innocent people of Iraq in pursuit of their leader. I hesitate to say that, however, having listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), which was echoed by my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink).

349
The hon. Lady's speech was eloquent and detailed in its account of the torture, abuse and murder conducted by the regime. I have so far been unconvinced by the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary, George Bush or others on the Government Front Bench—[Laughter.] However, if the hon. Lady had been on the Front Bench for the last six months, I might not be supporting the amendment this evening. I am also not convinced that the time has come to risk political turmoil in the Arab world, or to risk reprisals here at home from fundamentalist terrorists of whatever hue. Whatever the mandate of our troops in the field, if the decision is taken to go to war, every one of those British service men and women will deserve our full and unequivocal support.
6.4 Pm
Mr. Tom Clarke: After five hours of debate, it is difficult to make a point that has not already been raised. Nevertheless, that gives one the opportunity to reflect on the debate, and it is in that spirit that I say that I had intended to declare my support for the amendment tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith), and nothing I have heard in the debate has persuaded me that I should change my mind.
My right hon. Friend made the fundamental point that he sought to persuade the House that the case for military action is, as yet, unproven. I believe that to be the case. However—and other hon. Members who will support the amendment tonight may disagree—I cannot pretend that I have not been impressed by my colleagues on the Front Bench, including the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary. Some hon. Members have gone over the top in their criticisms of the role that my right hon. Friends have played.
I am not regarded as a critic of the United States, and I do not take the view that our Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary have simply responded to everything that the United States has said. Indeed, whatever criticisms I might have, I believe that when the history of this period is written, it may well record that—far from the picture painted by, I am sorry to say, the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond), for example—our Prime Minister had a great influence towards caution and stability on the part of the United States. Without him, Bush would not have gone to the United Nations at all.
That said, we are entitled to consider the consequences of a unilateral declaration of war. In common with the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), I take the view that some in the US Administration had already determined their position some time ago. I regret that whatever the arguments and the force of public opinion—and whatever the views expressed in this House—some in Washington seem determined to take unilateral action, and that could be very costly indeed.
Already we see problems in international organisations that I firmly support. I regret the unease in NATO, the disagreements within the European Union and, above all, the questions of credibility that have been placed at the door of the United Nations. I am sorry that, even during this debate, several hon. Members have said that if we do not respond to unilateral action, we will be following the route of the
350
League of Nations. That organisation was destroyed because people failed to give it the kind of support that the United Nations is entitled to expect, not least from this House today.
On some of my visits abroad, I have seen evidence of the carnage that hon. Members on both sides of the House have mentioned in their speeches. I have visited Kurdistan on two occasions. I do not necessarily reach the same conclusions as the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink), and my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Connarty) tells me that he intends to support the amendment. When I visited Iran in the late 1980s, I saw the evidence of people suffering from the use of chemical weapons by Saddam Hussein. But in view of that, is it not all the more necessary that we should confirm the importance of the United Nations and its agencies in seeking a response to these problems?
More recently I visited Rwanda with some of my hon. Friends, including my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Ms King). We saw there the aftermath of sheer genocide, a million people dying out of a population of 9 million, and we saw people now trying to deal with what took place.
I do not want to weaken the United Nations' influence in circumstances like that. I want to strengthen it, but I do not believe that it would be strengthened by unilateral action. It is right that my right hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury should give the lead tonight by inviting the House to express that view.
I am concerned about humanitarian considerations. That is why I am very keen to hear what Dr. Hans Blix eventually has to say. I do not believe that we should rush to judgment, nor do I believe that the British people feel that we should do so. If those of us who supported the Government's actions on Afghanistan on humanitarian grounds, and who supported the Government's actions on Kosovo on humanitarian grounds, take the view that there are grave concerns about the humanitarian consequences of war with Iraq, that seems to me entirely logical, a position shared by virtually all the aid agencies and non-governmental organisations, including CAFOD, and one to be taken seriously.
We want to avoid refugees. We want to avoid carnage. We want, if we can, to avoid war. That may not be possible, but I believe that it is right and that it strengthens the role of those who desperately search for peace to support my right hon. Friend's amendment, in the hope that we are addressing the concerns, not just of our own people, but of an increasingly disenchanted world.
6.12 pm
Mr. Alistair Carmichael: On 15 February some 1,000 of my constituents took to the streets to protest against the possibility of this country going to war in Iraq. To hon. Members who perhaps represent more compact areas, with perhaps more of a tradition of militant demonstration, that may not sound like much, but 1 am told that the 700 people who marched through the streets of Lerwick provided a sight that had never been seen before in the northern isles.

351
Those demonstrating ranged from the 700 marching in Lerwick, through people demonstrating on the steps of St. Magnus cathedral in Kirkwall, to a dozen or so parents and children demonstrating in the very small island of North Ronaldsay. The people who took to the streets to demonstrate were not wild-eyed extremists. Most of them were first-time protesters. Some were pacifists, but many were not. For the large part, they were teachers, crofters, fishermen, housewives, children—a whole range of people in the isles who wanted to make their view known. That view was that the case had not been made for war.
The reason I bring this up at this stage is that I think that the advent of these mass demonstrations—400,000 last year supporting the Countryside Alliance, 1 million against war in Iraq—is part of an ongoing process of disengagement from the party political process which we are part of here, as people find another way to express their views—views which they hope may influence the course of events.
The Government cannot be allowed to ignore the fact that they have not persuaded the public of the case for war. They must understand that the consequence of entering a war supported by the British Government but not by the British people will be to see an acceleration of that process of disengagement between people and politics. It would be a grotesque irony if we went to war in order to bring democracy to Iraq and in so doing dealt a fatal blow to the democratic institutions of our own country.
Much has been said during the debate about the despotism and loathsome record of Saddam Hussein. I was immensely impressed by the contribution of the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), in particular. I, too, recall a friend from university days. He was an Iraqi student studying at Glasgow university, and he wept bitter tears as he told me in 1983 of the terrible things that Saddam Hussein was doing to his people, and of how desperate he was to make those in the west aware of the situation. However, nothing happened, because it suited this country and its foreign policy for nothing to happen. Then, we were quite happy for Saddam Hussein to be engaged in a war with Iran. Against that background, I am unable to say that I would never countenance going to war against Iraq; however, I cannot say that I am prepared for such action to be taken at the moment. The implications of war in Iraq will reach far beyond the boundaries of that country. Every bomb that is dropped on Iraq will be like a stone dropped into water: it will create ripples that spread far and wide.
In his speech today, the Foreign Secretary spoke at some length about 12 years of UN resolutions on Iraq. He also said a little about the double standards applied by the international community to the situation in Israel and Palestine, but he did not say much about UN resolutions there. I remind the House that it is 36 years since the first such resolution—242, which called on Israel to relinquish control of territories occupied in the
352
war of 1967—was passed. Last year, five Security Council resolutions were passed relating to Israel and Palestine: 1397, 1402, 1403, 1405 and 1435. Resolution 1397"Demands immediate cessation of all acts of violence, including all acts of terror, provocation, incitement and destruction".
Yet as recently as last Sunday, six Palestinians were killed and 20 were injured during an Israeli raid in Gaza.
Mrs. Ellman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Carmichael: I am sorry, but I do not have the time. The Government will have to explain why we are prepared to value some UN resolutions so much more highly than others. I am sad to say that the Foreign Secretary's words this afternoon had a rather hollow ring, and I am afraid that they will be greeted with anger and disbelief throughout the Arab world.
I want to say a few brief words about the United Nations. The UN is essential in order to put some moral legitimacy behind this issue, but such legitimacy is diminished every time that the US takes a bullying or bribing step. I want our Government to do much more when the US makes statements such as George Bush's reference to the UN's "so-called" weapons inspectors. Why does our Prime Minister not contradict him and stand up for the UN when he says such things? I also fail to see how a Government who purport to be committed to the UN as a means of resolving this issue can countenance introducing a resolution while Dr. Blix is still asking for more time. As my hon. Friend the Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Mr. Moore) said, the implication is that the United Kingdom and the United States want to go to war before Dr. Blix has done his job.
If the Government are going to persuade me at all, the spinning has got to stop—there can be no more dodgy dossiers. The stakes are exceptionally high, and if we are to put the lives of our troops at risk, we must do better. The troops deserve better, the public deserve better and this House deserves better, and until we get it the Government will not have my support.
6.19 pm
Ms Oona King: Nothing can weigh more heavily on a democratically elected politician than the decision to go to war. That is why, when I was called into the Whips' Office and asked if I would vote with the Government to take military action if Iraq failed to disarm, I said no. I said that I could not vote with the Government. My reasoning was that Iraq had not had enough time to comply with the UN and that, if Saddam Hussein were given further time, he might disarm.
That conversation took place on 17 February 1998—exactly five years ago. Was I right? Obviously not. What happened in the intervening five years? Saddam Hussein rebuilt his chemical processors. He constructed a missile test stand, as we have heard, to test weapons with four times the power of the al-Samoud missiles. He imported hundreds of missile engines, as Hans Blix confirmed in his report to the UN last month. He tried to buy enriched uranium to build a nuclear bomb. He continued his policies of repression, which, according to conservative estimates, have caused the deaths of

353
100,000 civilians, most of them Muslim. He has continued to flout the authority of the UN, and has made a mockery of international law.
In 1991, UN resolution 687 gave Saddam Hussein 15 days to disarm—a fortnight. Twelve years on, no one can deny that the only shred of progress that has been made is the result of the immediate and credible threat of force. Do we therefore give Saddam Hussein more time? Five years after pleading for that course of action, I recognise its futility.
The UN inspectors should be supported in their mission, but it is clear that Saddam Hussein is not cooperating. He continues to play games, declaring this week that he would never destroy his al-Samoud missiles so that he can do just that next week or the week after and thereby claim compliance. However, the games that Saddam Hussein is playing are not really the issue. Everyone agrees that he has not co-operated fully; what we disagree about is the international community's response.
There are five main reasons why people oppose military action to disarm Saddam Hussein. First, on balance, they believe that loss of life will be greater if there is military action than if we stay with the status quo. Other hon. Members have outlined eloquently the bloody cost of the status quo. Suffice it to say that inaction can sometimes cause as much loss of life as action. Secondly, people think that Saddam Hussein should be given more time. Five years ago, I agreed with that, but now I do not. Thirdly, people want a second UN resolution—so do I. Fourthly, people think that the Government are pursuing, and pushing for, action against Iraq only because of what George W. Bush wants. I shall return to that point. Fifthly, people think that regime change is not an acceptable objective. They are right, but I want regime change—in Washington.
People have spoken about anti-Americanism. They wonder why some people are sickened by George W. Bush. I shall explain why I am sickened by him. His double standards sicken me. The fact that he surrounds himself with religious fundamentalists sickens me. The fact that he is in the pocket of the oil industry sickens me. Above all, the fact that he bankrolls Ariel Sharon to continue the slaughter of Palestinians sickens me.
Israel can flout all the UN resolutions in the world, invade its neighbours' territories, develop weapons of mass destruction, and it does not even get a ticking off from George W. Bush. However, the question is not the extent to which George W. Bush is reprehensible; it is whether he is responsible for British Government policy.
I was going to say that the problem I have with that theory is that George W. Bush was not elected when the Government first tabled a resolution on this subject, but he was never elected. So I shall rephrase it and say that George W. Bush was not President when this Government first tabled a resolution that was very similar to the one considered today. George W. Bush was not President when Britain was at the forefront of efforts in the UN to disarm Saddam Hussein.
The present Leader of the House of Commons, my right hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook), was Foreign Secretary when the debate was held on 17 February 1998. He said that
"the House can be proud that, throughout the present crisis, Britain has taken the lead in drafting work at the UN."—[Official Report. 17 February 1998; Vol. 306, c. 899.]
354
We were taking the lead when George W. Bush was still playing with his oil wells, so the question is this: if we decide on a course of action, does that course of action become invalid because someone who sickens us agrees with us?
On a lighter note, I had to ask myself the same question during the debate on hunting, when the right hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdecombe) gave an impassioned speech to ban hunting. I almost became pro-hunting, but not quite. The point is that, on a question of conscience, all Members must vote on the basis on what they believe to be right, not on what anyone else believes to be right. That is what I and most other hon. Members will do. I agree with the text that we shall vote on today:
"That this House … calls upon Iraq to recognise this as its final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations."
That is what I believe in; that is what I will vote for.
Turning to related concerns—Afghanistan—Britain is working flat out to shore up that tortured country. Where are the Americans? Why have they not upheld their promise not to walk away from the people of Afghanistan? Is it because there is no oil in that country? What of post-war Iraq? Will the Foreign Secretary confirm that the Government favour a UN Administration, not an American oligarchy? What of the middle east? The Government must make further progress on the middle east.
Will the Foreign Secretary assure me that Britain will look at securing a UN resolution, forcing Israel back to its 1967 borders and, in the long term, securing a viable Palestinian state? Will he further assure me that if such a resolution faced an unreasonable veto by a Security Council member—for example, America—Britain would still take action outside the UN, if necessary, to secure justice for Palestinians?
Finally, I want to mention the extremely difficult situation facing Muslims in this country and in my constituency. Ever since the events of 11 September, Muslims have been under suspicion purely on account of their faith. Most Muslims and, indeed, most Asians have reported increased antagonism. That is because the war on terror means something different to everyone. It is spreading its tentacles in a confused and insidious manner. It has become a war on asylum seekers, refugees and, by extension, various ethnic minorities. At its most extreme and stupid, it has become a war on men with beards. It is disgraceful that it is being allowed to drift in that way, and I know that several Members agree.
Let us be clear what this should be about: it is about disarming rogue states with weapons of mass destruction and preventing a future scenario—not a past one—where terrorist networks get hold of weapons of mass destruction, such as anthrax and VX nerve gas, from a rogue states such as Iraq, and deploy them in another country such as Britain.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. The hon. Lady has had her time.
6.27 pm
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I am delighted to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, even at the tail end of the debate.

355
Judging from the 200-odd letters that I have received in my constituency, it is clear that the British people do not believe that a case for war has yet been made. I appeal to the Government to expand on this matter in the media, so that my constituents and others can be convinced of that cause.
UN resolution 1441 must be upheld in one way or another, although the UN's credibility would be hugely strengthened if a further resolution could be obtained, even if it is passed by just a majority of the members of the Security Council, not unanimously. It is clear that Saddam Hussein is one of the biggest tyrants that the world has ever seen, and that he is continuing to try to acquire weapons of mass destruction. As recently as last March, he tried to acquire rocket motors to have rockets with a far greater launch capability.
It is also clear that, in the 12 years since the Gulf war, some 360,000 children have been killed in Iraq as a result of Saddam Hussein's activities. That man has to be stopped; his weapons of mass destruction have to be removed one way or another, and he has to be convinced that the UN and world consortium is tightening the ratchet around him and that he will not be allowed to get away with it.
In the minute that I have left, I should like to talk about the aftermath of the war. If the case of the British Government is that we are relieving the suffering of the Iraqi people, we must surely also strenuously ensure that, in the aftermath of war, the humanitarian and oilfor-food aid is quickly disseminated among the Iraqi people, so that their long-held suffering can be ended as soon as possible.
The stability of the middle east will be of paramount importance after the war, particularly given its neighbour, Iran, which has a large air force and a navy. It is essential that a strongly based interim Government are put in place quickly after the war.
Finally, it is essential that the UN resolutions on the Israel-Palestine situation are rigorously enforced and upheld; otherwise, the base for terrorism in Palestine from Hamas and other extremist Islamic organisations will remain, and there will still be a launch pad for terrorism from that part of the world.
6.30 pm
Mr. Alan Duncan: Today's debate has been important for the House of Commons. It has been a tribute to the skills, knowledge and passions contained in the House.
In the last few hours, nearly 40 Members have spoken. I think that all of us are decent people wrestling with a profound dilemma that will shape the world for decades. As I scour the names added to the amendment of the right hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith), I assure him and all those who have signed it that I do so with complete respect, and that is not just because he is my pair—not yet invoked, given the current parliamentary imbalance. He and his co-signatories have an honest and cogent position, which nobody has the right to deride.
In summing up this debate, I hope that, in return, the House will accept that I in no way represent the slightly nasty caricature used to label us by the hon. Member for
356
Nottingham, South (Alan Simpson), which was uncharacteristic on his part: keen-to-bomb Tories. That is far from our position. I have lived and breathed the events of the middle east for nearly 20 years. I have tried to learn its history and to travel to all corners of the middle east. I have met many of its rulers and its people and have explored its culture and society.
Let me therefore try to address the arguments that have been put primarily by those who support the amendment, which was signed by well over 100 people today. Let me say at the outset that the core argument of the right hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury was that if the amendment were rejected, that would be seen as signifying war. As in so much of what we are discussing, however, an equal and opposite argument exists. The obverse of what he says is that, if the amendment were accepted, that could be seen as signifying a weakening of resolve.
I shall approach the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman's supporters in three areas, which I hope will sum up the whole of tonight's debate. In viewing the prospect of war, we must examine and assess the reasons for it, the authority for it and its repercussions. The reasons have been discussed in depth. Many believe that the prospect of war and the reasons for it are unproven, that it is unnecessary, and that we should leave Saddam Hussein be. I used to believe that containment would suffice. I thought for a long time that Saddam Hussein was a bit like Marshall Tito in Yugoslavia—a bad but not necessarily mad man who confined his nastiness to his own country, and who should therefore be tolerated, even though it was distasteful to do so. I have come to believe, however, that Saddam's possession of biological and chemical weapons in particular pose a genuine and serious risk, to the point at which a single glass of anthrax left on the London tube could kill all the people who went on the march in London last Saturday. If a capability of that sort were ever to get into the wrong hands, it would unleash danger in the world the like of which we have never been called on to contend with previously.
Lembit öpik rose—
Mr. Duncan: The hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I do not give way.
We must appreciate that we are in new territory. It is difficult to carry public opinion when the threat is intangible and when we do not see a conventional reason for war or conflict—as we did in the Falk lands or Kuwait, when tanks or planes had gone into another country. We have to assess whether the risk of doing nothing is, as we believe it to be, greater than the risk of doing something.
We are in a whole new realm of moral calculation, the like of which we have not had to face before. We may be required to act without those conventionally accepted reasons for doing so. On the Conservative Benches, we admit that the Government, the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister—and all who sit on Labour Benches and, indeed, on our Benches—are in a very difficult position. If the Government are to fulfil their duty as the guardian of their own and other people's security, they will, instead of being popular by following, have to risk being unpopular by leading.

357
Let me turn to the second element that has dominated today's debate, which is the question of the authority that may lie—and, in our view, does lie—behind any decision that has now to be taken. In addressing this vexed moral calculation, the world—and almost everyone in this House—has vested that authority in the United Nations. As has been rehearsed here today, the United Nations has produced a series of resolutions over many years. In arriving at resolution 1441, we are at the 17th or 18th resolution. We have vested authority in the United Nations, and resolution 1441 calls for Saddam Hussein to disarm immediately or face serious consequences.
Mr. Barry Gardiner: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that signatories to the amendment must be prepared to answer this question: what trigger would justify military action? They have signally failed to do that this afternoon.
Mr. Duncan: That is a question that they have to ask but on which the United Nations, in which we have vested authority, must adjudicate.
Some hon. Members have said that we must give the inspectors more time; but they have turned on its head the requirement of resolution 1441. The resolution does not say that the inspectors have to go and find the proverbial needle in a haystack. The inspectors are there to have laid before them all the armaments that Saddam Hussein possesses so that they can then destroy them. By inverting the onus of obligation, as some contributors have done, they have perverted the basis of the authority of UN resolution 1441.
Mr. Salmond rose—
Mr. Duncan: Again, the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I do not give way.
I say to those contributors that there is yet a chance for peace. Saddam Hussein is the one man in the world who can yet guarantee that there is no conflict.
Let me canter through the rest of my points about authority. We would like to see a second resolution. It is a political requirement and we would like to see it if we can. We do not believe that it is legally necessary but—if, in this new moral calculation, we are to draw people in a democracy behind the action that may be taken—it is essential to achieve that second resolution. I wish the Foreign Secretary and his counterparts well in trying to secure it. I hope too that the Arab League may yet continue in its efforts to persuade Saddam Hussein to leave Baghdad so that we can be spared conflict.
To all those who have signed today's amendment, I say this forcibly: if we are to go down the UN route, it is important to stick with the UN route. I would argue that people in the European Union or NATO—or even in this House—do not have the authority to second-guess or dilute resolutions that the United Nations has already passed.
Forty Members have spoken in this debate and, although it will be invidious to single anybody out, I will. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) argued for time. He was perplexed about Hans Blix and asked about attitude. That was a Blix word. Hans Blix has said that the
358
attitude of Saddam Hussein matters much more than time, although the resolution uses the word "immediate". The right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) gave a powerful synopsis and summary of the dangers that face the broader region. Once again, the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), who was heard in absolute silence, made an emotional appeal that no one can have failed to have been moved by.
However, I cannot have any respect for the position that the Liberal Democrats have taken today. One day the leader of the Liberal Democrats is a UN supporter and then he says that it does not have any power. One day he says that Saddam is a threat and then he says that there is no proof. He is anti-war, pro-war, multilateral and unilateral. He is friend of America and then he does not really like America. He is pro-sanctions and against sanctions. He says that we should listen to the inspectors and then give Saddam more time. Then he is pro a second resolution.
Mr. Paul Marsden rose—
Mr. Duncan: The leader of the Liberal Democrats is rather like the hon. Gentleman. He is premature. Does the hon. Gentleman stand by the words uttered by those on his Front Bench that, when the leader of the Liberal Democrats went to the march in London that Saturday, he never said no to war?
Mr. Marsden: I am proud of my leader. At the very time that the Government are heading into war, why cannot the Tory party even table any kind of amendment? It is an utter irrelevance to the whole debate.
Mr. Duncan: The secondary socialist has moved to a true left-wing party, but I say to the hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Mr. Moore) and to his leader, who deny that he never said no to war, that I made a grave error on that day. I came out of Green Park tube and found myself in the middle of the demonstration. While beating a hasty retreat, I fell upon a discarded poster. It says, "Lib Dems Say No".[Interruption.]
Mr. Andrew Stunell: I think that the hon. Gentleman will live to regret this intervention. Our party has said from the beginning that our position is that we are pro the United Nations. We are not saying that we are against military conflict in every situation. Let us be clear about it—the position of our party is absolutely clear.
Mr. Duncan: You may not think it, Mr. Speaker, but the Conservative party research department is ever resourceful. I found the Liberal Democrats' poster for the following week. As hon. Members can see, it says "Lib Dems Say Yes".[Laughter.] This shows the wonderful and glorious ambivalence of the Liberal Democrats. Let me say to them—which is it?
Mr. Moore: The hon. Gentleman has made the point before that people are entitled to take a principled position on this issue. Some members of our party—as, indeed, some members of the Conservative party—are

359
opposed to war. The position that we have taken throughout in the House of Commons and that my right hon. Friend the leader of the Liberal Democrats made clear on the march is that we are in favour of the United Nations process. We are not against war in all circumstances. War must be a last resort.
Mr. Duncan: It is so nice to get from the Liberal Democrats a definite maybe. Such is the hon. Gentleman's position on the fence post—it is like that of his leader—that it will soon have to be surgically removed.[Interruption.] I would love more time.
The third and perhaps the most important issue to which I want to devote attention and which I know that the Minister will consider are the repercussions of anything that might happen. The repercussions might affect the whole region. As has been said, they include the potential fall of the al-Sauds and the Hashemites. There is a danger that some approaches to societies in the middle east show insufficient understanding of their thinking. We need to see the middle east peace process immediately revived so that we can be, if I might coin a phrase, tough on terrorism and tough on the causes of terrorism. We need to see humanitarian aid with massive resources and logistical support. We need to know what will follow and we hope that the optimistic scenario discussed today, given that there is an intelligent and educated middle class, oil revenues and a broadly secular society, will give hope to that country.
But I have no time. I must leave it to the Minister. All I say to the House today—I hope that everybody is listening—is that whereas we could have pursued narrow party advantage, this matter is too serious for us to do so. We will not do so, and in the interests of global security and anything that might need to be done under the authority of the United Nations, we will give this Government our unstinting support.
6.45 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Mike O'Brien): This has been a fine debate with a number of excellent speeches. Indeed, in many ways, it has been a very passionate debate, as should be the case given that we are dealing with the issue of whether this country is to take further action and what sort of action it should be, with the need to go back to the UN with a second resolution and with the need to ensure that we express the views of people throughout the country who rightly want to know that this House is reflecting their concerns. Today, in this debate, the House has reflected views and concerns across the country.
I thank hon. Members for their contributions. In particular, I thank the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Duncan) for what I thought was an excellent performance. We especially enjoyed his yes/no interlude, which illustrated something with which Labour Members are just as familiar as Opposition Members. I should also like to thank a number of my right hon. and hon. Friends—my right hon. Friends the Members for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman), for Walsall, South (Mr. George) and for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes), and my hon. Friend the
360
Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths). I give particular thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), who made a powerful speech. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Ms King); I thought that she was getting a bit wobbly at one point, but she convinced me that she was not. I thank all hon. Members for their support today.
On the Opposition Benches, I acknowledge the very robust performance from the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) that we expect of him.
I also congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow, Kelvin (Mr. Galloway) on his oratorical flourish. I praise him only because I know that it will irritate him greatly to be praised from the Labour Front Bench—and even though I disagreed with the content of his speech.
The motion before the House is not an endorsement of military action by UK forces. No decision has yet been taken to deploy British forces in action. The motion supports the UN route to disarmament. Let me be clear: the Government will put any decision on military action to the House, subject in terms of timing only to the safety of our forces. It is in our interests as a Government to ensure that the House has the chance to vote before hostilities. We will also want a full opportunity to debate and vote on the outcome of proceedings at the UN on the second resolution, so there is an opportunity for another vote.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. O'Brien: If I may proceed for a moment, I shall give way shortly.
The body of evidence that Saddam Hussein possesses a fearsome range of weapons of mass destruction is substantial. The evidence comes from the UN reports, from Dr. Blix, from our own intelligence and indeed from Saddam Hussein himself, who last night, oddly, admitted that the Iraqis had found a biological bomb and wanted to show us. Let us be clear: Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction and he is a threat to his people, his neighbours and ultimately the middle east and the wider world. The UN Security Council is in no doubt about that. That is why its resolution 1441 gave Saddam Hussein a final opportunity to comply with a string of legally binding obligations imposed on him over the past 12 years. Nearly four months later, Saddam Hussein has not taken that final opportunity. I cannot put the matter more crisply than Dr. Blix. He has reported that Iraq
"appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance … of the disarmament which was demanded of it".
Indeed, Dr. Blix said today that at the moment it is not even clear whether the Iraqis really want to co-operate. My right hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith) said that Saddam Hussein had co-operated by 70 per cent. Well, Dr. Blix disagrees. My right hon. Friend accepts that the declaration provided by Saddam Hussein is inadequate. Indeed, the UN resolution requires it to be a full and final declaration of all the weapons of mass destruction held by Saddam Hussein in order to allow the inspectors to audit that declaration. If that declaration is not full and if it is not final, there has been no co-operation at all,

361
because the only co-operation has been not on substance but on process. Saddam has shown throughout the past 12 years that he will continue to cooperate on issues of procedure, but he does not cooperate on the substance of disarmament. That is where we must not allow him to play games with Members of this House, with this country or with the United Nations.
Dr. Nick Palmer: I will not support the amendment because I do not believe that we and our service men can teeter on the brink month after month while Saddam plays games with us. However, I share with Members who put their names to the amendment the belief that war should be the last resort. Will the Minister confirm that if Dr. Blix says that Saddam, at the last moment, is co-operating fully, Britain will put war on hold and that it will be the last resort for us?
Mr. O'Brien: We have always been totally clear that if there is full and complete co-operation as required by 1441, there will not be a case for military action.
The report from UNMOVIC and the International Atomic Energy Agency, which we have all seen, demonstrates that Saddam has no intention of cooperating fully and proactively in the way that is required by resolution 1441. Iraq is seeking to deceive the Security Council. There is no semblance of wholehearted co-operation—nothing like voluntary and active disarmament and nothing that suggests a regime that has a clear conscience and has nothing to hide. Those who advocate more time must face up to the fact that there is a limit to what the inspectors can do in circumstances where there is not a complete and full declaration. They cannot audit something that is not full and complete—that simply does not make sense.
Tony Wright: Is it not the case, though, that if the UN process was to work, the crisis was to be resolved and Saddam was to be disarmed, it would be a triumph and a vindication for the Prime Minister and the British Government, but it would be a humiliation and a failure for the American President, because it would subvert the whole strategy of regime change that has been put in place? Is not that why, whatever we say and do today, there is going to be war?
Mr. O'Brien: That is a complete and utter misreading of the situation. Has my hon. Friend not read the speech given by the President in Cincinnati last year, in which he made it very clear that if Saddam disarms and the nature of the regime changes, that will satisfy him? If my hon. Friend thinks that the Americans are determined on this course whatever, he has not listened to what they have so plainly said. Our position and that of the Americans is that if Saddam complies with 1441—and he must comply fully and completely—the case for military action falls.
David Winnick: We all want to avoid war, but did my hon. Friend read the leader comment in The Times on Monday last week, which reported that a female broadcaster in Baghdad, who was alleged to have said a few words about Saddam's wife, was arrested, tortured and hanged? Her tongue was cut out from the corpse and sent to her family. Does not that example
362
show that if war leads to liberation, it will be a tremendous relief to the overwhelming majority of people in Iraq?
Mr. O'Brien: If we have to undertake military action and American and British troops are committed and have to go into Baghdad, I suspect that the Iraqi people will be the first to cheer seeing the back of Saddam Hussein.
The inspectors' role is not to act as detectives but to act as auditors to verify the declaration. They cannot fulfil their mandate without Iraqi co-operation. They are not detectives who are looking for clues or a needle in a haystack the size of Iraq. They are auditors, who audit the Iraqi declaration. Given that it is neither full nor complete—no one seriously disputes that—all the time in the world will not enable the inspectors to do that. Regardless of numbers, the job is impossible. We can give them all the time in the world, but without the complete declaration, the exercise is pointless. Resolution 1441 is explicit about the need for complete co-operation.
Mr. Salmond: The Minister must know that both sets of inspectors are asking for more time. Are the conditions that the Prime Minister outlined on 6 February being fulfilled? He said that the inspectors must see that the process is finished, and that the Security Council must pass a further resolution by majority. He also referred to an "unreasonable veto". Will the Government support force only in those circumstances or have they changed their mind since the Prime Minister made that statement?
Mr. O'Brien: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary dealt with that point in his opening speech.
Mr. Salmond: The Prime Minister clearly said that he would support the use of force under precise conditions: the inspectors must decide that they can do nothing further and a further resolution has to be passed by a majority. He said that force would also be used if the resolution was subject to an "unreasonable veto". Does that remain the Prime Minister's position?
Mr. O'Brien: We have clearly set out our position. I. too, saw the interview and I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman's recollections are correct. Perhaps we can go through that later.
The threat that Saddam poses is clear. His people, his neighbours and his region have lived in fear of him for years. The UN Security Council has passed resolution 1441 and offered him a final opportunity to comply with legally binding obligations. He has not taken that opportunity and he appears to have no intention of doing so. In those circumstances, there is a limit to what the inspectors can achieve. They cannot fulfil their mandate without Iraqi co-operation.
We have proposed a two-part strategy. First, we, Spain and the US tabled a draft resolution on Monday in New York. Secondly, it will not be put to the vote immediately. It is therefore not too late for Saddam Hussein to comply, but he must do so if military action is to be avoided. There is still time for Iraq to make the right choice, but the onus is on Saddam to co-operate on matters of substance.

363
My right hon. Friend the Member for alsall, South (Mr. George) said that we cannot trust Saddam Hussein. We need to send Saddam a clear message that he must comply in full with resolution 1441 now—not in 120 days, not in four months and not in one year, but now. That is the real route to peace. Saddam Hussein needs a clear message tonight. If we fail to provide that, we will send the wrong message: that UN resolutions can be ignored. We intend to send the right message: that UN resolutions will be enforced; that international law will be complied with; and that other dictators should not pursue weapons of mass destruction because the international community will intervene.
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 199, Noes 393.

Division No. 96]

[6:59 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Davies, rh Denzil(Llanelli)

Ainsworth, Peter(E Surrey)

Davis, rh Terry(B'ham Hodge H)

Allan, Richard

Dawson, Hilton

Allen, Graham

Dobbin, Jim(Heywood)

Austin, John

Dobson, rh Frank

Bacon, Richard

Donohoe, Brian H.

Baker, Norman

Doran, Frank

Banks, Tony

Doughty, Sue

Barnes, Harry

Drew, David(Stroud)

Barrett, John

Edwards, Huw

Battle, John

Ennis, Jeff(Barnsley E)

Begg, Miss Anne

Ewing, Annabelle

Beith, rh A. J.

Farrelly, Paul

Bennett, Andrew

Fisher, Mark

Benton, Joe(Bootle)

Flynn, Paul(Newport W)

Berry, Roger

Foster, Don(Bath)

Best, Harold

Francis, Dr. Hywel

Brake, Tom(Carshalton)

Galloway, George

Breed, Colin

George, Andrew(St. lves)

Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

Gerrard, Neil

Bruce, Malcolm

Gibson, Dr. Ian

Buck, Ms Karen

Gidley, Sandra

Burden, Richard

Godsiff, Roger

Burnett, John

Green, Matthew(Ludlow)

Burstow, Paul

Gummer, rh John

Cable, Dr. Vincent

Hall, Patrick(Bedford)

Calton, Mrs Patsy

Hamilton, David(Midlothian)

Campbell, Ronnie(Blyth V)

Hamilton, Fabian(Leeds NE)

Carmichael, Alistair

Hancock, Mike

Caton, Martin

Harris, Dr. Evan(Oxford W & Abingdon)

Challen, Colin

Chaytor, David

Harvey, Nick

Chidgey, David

Heath, David

Clapham, Michael

Henderson, Doug(Newcastle N)

Clark, Mrs Helen(Peterborough)

Hinchliffe, David

Clarke, rh Kenneth(Rushcliffe)

Hoey, Kate(Vauxhall)

Clarke, rh Tom(Coatbridge & Chryston)

Holmes, Paul

Hood, Jimmy(Clydesdale)

Clarke, Tony(Northampton S)

Hopkins, Kelvin

Cohen, Harry

Horam, John(Orpington)

Coleman, Iain

Hughes, Simon(Southwark N)

Corbyn, Jeremy

Hume, John(Foyle)

Cotter, Brian

Iddon, Dr. Brian

Cousins, Jim

Illsley, Eric

Cox, Tom(Tooting)

Jackson, Glenda(Hampstead & Highgate)

Cryer, Ann(Keighley)

Cryer, John(Hornchurch)

Jackson, Helen(Hillsborough)

Cunningham, Jim(Coventry S)

Jones, Jon Owen(Cardiff C)

Dalyell, Tam

Jones, Lynne(Selly Oak)

Davey, Edward(Kingston)

Jones, Martyn(Clwyd S)

Davey, Valerie(Bristol W)

Jones, Nigel(Cheltenham)

364

Keetch, Paul

Sanders, Adrian

Kennedy, rh Charles(Ross Skye & Inverness)

Sarwar, Mohammad

Savidge, Malcolm

Kilfoyle, Peter

Sawford, Phil

Kirkwood, Sir Archy

Sedgemore, Brian

Lamb, Norman

Shipley, Ms Debra

Laws, David(Yeovil)

Simpson, Alan(Nottingham S)

Lazarowicz, Mark

Singh, Marsha

Leigh, Edward

Skinner, Dennis

Lepper, David

Smith, rh Chris(Islington S & Finsbury)

Lewis, Terry(Worsley)

Llwyd, Elfyn

Smith, Llew(Blaenau Gwent)

Luke, Iain(Dundee E)

Smith, Sir Robert(W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

Lyons, John(Strathkelvin)

McCafferty, Chris

Steen. Anthony

McDonnell, John

Stevenson, George

McGrady, Eddie

Stinchcombe, Paul

McKechin, Ann

Strang-rh Dr Gavin

McNamara, Kevin

Stunell, Andrew

McWalter, Tony

Tapsell, Sir Peter

Mahmood, Khalid

Taylor, Davld(NW Leics)

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Taylor, Matthew(Truro)

Mallon, Seamus

Taylor, Dr Richard(Wyre F)

Marsden, Paul(Shrewsbury & Atcham)

Thomas, Simon(Ceredigion)

Thurso, John

Marshall, David(Glasgow Shettleston)

Tonge. Dr. Jenny

Trickett Jon

Marshall, Jim(Leicester S)

Truswell, Paul

Marshall, Jim(Leicester S)

Turner, Andrew(Isle of Wight)

Marshall-Andrews, Robert

Turner, Dr. Desmond(Brighton Kemptown)

Mole, Chris

Moore, Michael

Jyler, Paul(N Cornwall)

Morgan, Julie

Tynan. Bill(Hamilton S)

Murphy, Denis(Wansbeck)

Tyrie, Andrew

Murrison, Dr. Andrew

yis Dr. Rudi

Naysmith, Dr. Doug

Walley, Ms Joan

Oaten, Mark(Winchester)

Walter Robert

öpik, Lembit

Wareing, Robert N.

Organ, Diana

Webb Steve(Northavon)

Owen, Albert

Weir Michael

Page, Richard

white Brian

Perham, Linda

Williams, rh Alan(Swansea W)

Pike, Peter(Burnley)

Williams, Betty(Conwy)

Pollard, Kerry

Williams, Hywel(Caernarfon)

Prentice, Gordon(Pendle)

Williams, Roger(Brecon)

Price, Adam(E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

Willis, Phil

Wishart, Pete

Pugh, Dr. John

Wood, Mike(Batley)

Reed, Andy(Loughborough)

Worthington, Tony

Reid, Alan(Argyll & Bute)

Wright, Tony(Cannock)

Rendel, David

Wyatt, Derek

Robertson, Angus(Moray)

Younger-Ross, Richard

Ruddock, Joan

Russell, Bob(Colchester)

Tellers for the Ayes:

Salmond, Alex

Mr. Douglas Hogg and

Salter, Martin

Mr. Tony Lloyd

NOES

Adams, Irene(Paisley N)

Barron, rh Kevin

Ainger, Nick

Bayley, Hugh

Ainsworth, Bob(Cov"try NE)

Beard, Nigel

Alexander, Douglas

Beckett, rh Margaret

Amess, David

Beggs, Roy(E Antrim)

Ancram, rh Michael

Bell, Stuart

Anderson, rh Donald(Swansea E)

Bellingham, Henry

Anderson, Janet(Rossendale & Darwen)

Benn, Hilary

Bercow, John

Arbuthnot, rh James

Blackman, Liz

Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

Blair, rh Tony

Atherton, Ms Candy

Blears, Ms Hazel

Atkins, Charlotte

Blizzard, Bob

Atkinson, David(Bour'mth E)

Blunkett, rh David

Atkinson, Peter(Hexham)

Blunt, Crispin

Bailey, Adrian

Boateng, rh Paul

Baird, Vera

Borrow, David

Baldry, Tony

Boswell, Tim

365

Bottomley, Peter(Worthing W)

Duncan, Peter(Galloway)

Bradley, rh Keith(Withington)

Duncan Smith, rh lain

Bradley, Peter(The Wrekin)

Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

Bradshaw, Ben

Eagle, Angela(Wallasey)

Brady, Graham

Eagle, Maria(L'pool Garston)

Brazier, Julian

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Brennan, Kevin

Evans, Nigel

Brown, rh Gordon(Dunfermline E)

Fabricant, Michael

Fallon, Michael

Brown, rh Nicholas(Newcastle E Wallsend)

Field, rh Frank(Birkenhead)

Field, Mark(Cities of London & Westminster)

Brown, Russell(Dumfries)

Browne, Desmond

Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

Browning, Mrs Angela

Flight, Howard

Bryant, Chris

Flint, Caroline

Burnham, Andy

Flook, Adrian

Burns, Simon

Follett, Barbara

Burnside, David

Forth, rh Eric

Burt, Alistair

Foster, rh Derek

Byers, rh Stephen

Foster, Michael(Worcester)

Caborn, rh Richard

Foster, Michael Jabez(Hastings & Rye)

Cairns, David

Cameron, David

Foulkes, rh George

Campbell, Alan(Tynemouth)

Fox, Dr. Liam

Campbell, Mrs Anne(C'bridge)

Francois, Mark

Campbell, Gregory(E Lond"y)

Gapes, Mike(Ilford S)

Caplin, Ivor

Gardiner, Barry

Casale, Roger

Garnier, Edward

Cash, William

George, rh Bruce(Walsall S)

Cawsey, Ian(Brigg)

Gibb, Nick(Bognor Regis)

Chapman, Ben(WirralS)

Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

Chapman, Sir Sydney(Chipping Barnet)

Gilroy, Linda

Goggins, Paul

Chope, Christopher

Goodman, Paul

Clappison, James

Grayling, Chris

Clark, Dr. Lynda(Edinburgh Pentlands)

Green, Damian(Ashford)

Greenway, John

Clark, Paul(Gillingham)

Grieve, Dominic

Clarke, rh Charles(Norwich S)

Griffiths, Jane(Reading E)

Clelland, David

Griffiths, Nigel(Edinburgh S)

Clwyd, Ann(Cynon V)

Griffiths, Win(Bridgend)

Coaker, Vernon

Grogan, John

Coffey, Ms Ann

Hague, rh William

Collins, Tim

Hain, rh Peter

Colman, Tony

Hall, Mike(Weaver Vale)

Conway, Derek

Hammond, Philip

Cook, rh Robin(Livingston)

Hanson, David

Cooper, Yvette

Harman, rh Ms Harriet

Cormack, Sir Patrick

Harris, Tom(Glasgow Cathcart)

Corston, Jean

Hawkins, Nick

Cran, James(Beverley)

Hayes, John(S Holland)

Cranston, hon. Ross

Heald, Oliver

Cruddas, Jon

Healey, John

Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack(Copeland)

Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

Henderson, Ivan(Harwich)

Cunningham, Tony(Workington)

Hendrick, Mark

Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire

Hendry, Charles

Darling, rh Alistair

Hepburn, Stephen

David, Wayne

Heppell, John

Davidson, Ian

Hermon, Lady

Davies, Geraint(Croydon C)

Hesford, Stephen

Davies, Quentin(Grantham & Stamford)

Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia

Hill, Keith(Streatham)

Davis, rh David(Haltemprice & Howden)

Hoban, Mark(Fareham)

Hope, Phil(Corby)

Dean, Mrs Janet

Howard, rh Michael

Denham, rh John

Howarth, rh Alan(Newport E)

Dhanda, Parmjit

Howarth, George(Knowsley N & Sefton E)

Dismore, Andrew

Djanogly, Jonathan

Howarth, Gerald(Aldershot)

Dodds, Nigel

Howells, Dr. Kim

Donaldson, Jeffrey M.

Hughes, Beverley(Stretford & Urmston)

Dorrell, rh Stephen

Dowd, Jim(Lewisham W)

Hughes, Kevin(Doncaster N)

Drown, Ms Julia

Humble, Mrs Joan

Duncan, Alan(Rutland)

Hunter, Andrew

366

Hurst, Alan(Braintree)

Michael, rh Alun

Mutton, rh John

Milburn, rh Alan

Ingram, rh Adam

Miliband, David

irranca-Davies, Huw

Miller, Andrew

Jackson, Robert(Wantage)

Mitchell, Andrew(Sutton Coldfield)

Jamieson, David

Jenkin, Bernard

Moffatt, Laura

Jenkins, Brian

Moonie, Dr. Lewis

Johnson, Alan(Hull W)

Moran, Margaret

Jones, Helen(Warrington N)

Morley, Elliot

Jones, Kevan(N Durham)

Morris, rh Estelle

Jowell, rh Tessa

Moss, Malcolm

Joyce, Eric(Falkirk W)

Mountford, Kali

Kaufman, rh Gerald

Mudie, George

Keeble, Ms Sally

Mullin, Chris

Keen, Ann(Brentford)

Munn, Ms Meg

Kelly, Ruth(Bolton W)

Murphy, Jim(Eastwood)

Kemp, Fraser

Murphy, rh Paul(Torfaen)

Kennedy, Jane(Wavertree)

Norman, Archie

Key, Robert(Salisbury)

Norris, Dan(Wansdyke)

Khabra, Piara S.

O"Brien, Bill(Normanton)

Kidney, David

O'Brien, Mike(N Warks)

King, Andy(Rugby)

O'Brien, Stephen(Eddisbury)

King, Ms Oona(Bethnal Green & Bow)

Olner, Bill

O'Neill, Martin

Kirkbride, Miss Julie

Osborne, George(Tatton)

Knight, rh Greg(E Yorkshire)

Osborne, Sandra(Ayr)

Knight, Jim(S Dorset)

Ottaway, Richard

Kumar, Dr. Ashok

Paice, James

Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

Palmer, Dr. Nick

Laing, Mrs Eleanor

Paterson, Owen

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Pearson, Ian

Lammy, David

Picking, Anne

Lansley, Andrew

Pickles, Eric

Laxton, Bob(Derby N)

Pickthall, Colin

Leslie, Christopher

Plaskitt, James

Letwin, rh Oliver

Pond, Chris(Gravesham)

Levitt, Tom(High Peak)

Pope, Greg(Hyndburn)

Lewis, Ivan(Bury S)

Portillo, rh Michael

Lewis, Dr. Julian(New Forest E)

Prentice, Ms Bridget(Lewisham E)

Liddell, rh Mrs Helen

Liddell-Grainger, Ian

Prescott, rh John

Lidington, David

Primarolo, rh Dawn

Lilley, rh Peter

Prisk, Mark(Hertford)

Linton, Martin

Prosser, Gwyn

Loughton, Tim

Purchase, Ken

Love, Andrew

Quin, rh Joyce

Lucas, Ian(Wrexham)

Quinn, Lawrie

Luff, Peter(M-Worcs)

Rapson, Syd(Portsmouth N)

McAvoy, Thomas

Raynsford, rh Nick

McCabe, Stephen

Redwood, rh John

McCartney, rh Ian

Reed, Andy(Loughborough)

McDonagh, Siobhain

Reid, rh Dr. John(Hamilton N & Bellshill)

MacDonald, Calum

MacDougall, John

Robathan, Andrew

McFall, John

Robertson, Hugh(Faversham & M-Kent)

McGuire, Mrs Anne

McIntosh, Miss Anne

Robertson, Laurence(Tewk'b'ry)

McIsaac, Shona

Robinson, Geoffrey(Coventry NW)

Mackay, rh Andrew

McKenna, Rosemary

Robinson, Mrs Iris(Strangford)

Mackinlay, Andrew

Robinson, Peter(Belfast E)

Maclean, rh David

Roche, Mrs Barbara

McLoughlin, Patrick

Roe, Mrs Marion

McNulty, Tony

Rosindell, Andrew

MacShane, Denis

Ross, Ernie(Dundee W)

Mandelson, rh Peter

Roy, Frank(Motherwell)

Mann, John(Bassetlaw)

Ruane, Chris

Marsden, Gordon(Blackpool S)

Ruffley, David

Martlew, Eric

Russell, Ms Christine(City of Chester)

Maude, rh Francis

Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

Selous, Andrew

May, Mrs Theresa

Shaw, Jonathan

Meacher, rh Michael

Sheerman, Barry

Mercer, Patrick

Shepherd, Richard

Merron, Gillian

Sheridan, Jim

367

Short, rh Clare

Tipping, Paddy

Simmonds, Mark

Todd, Mark(S Derbyshire)

Simon, Siän(B'ham Erdington)

Touhig, Don(Islwyn)

Simpson, Keith(M-Norfolk)

Tredinnick, David

Smith, rh Andrew(Oxford E)

Trimble, rh David

Smith, Geraldine(Morecambe & Lunesdale)

Turner, Dennis(Wolverh'ton SE)

Turner, Neil(Wigan)

Smith, Jacqui(Redditch)

Twigg, Derek(Halton)

Smith, John(Glamorgan)

Twigg, Stephen(Enfield)

Smyth, Rev. Martin(Belfast S)

Vaz, Keith(Leicester E)

Soames, Nicholas

Viggers, Peter

Soley, Clive

Ward Claire

Southworth, Helen

Waterson, Nigel

Spellar, rh John

Watkinson, Angela

Spelman, Mrs Caroline

Watson, Tom(W Bromwich E)

Spicer, Sir Michael

Watts' David

Spink, Bob(Castle Point)

Whitehead, Dr. Alan

Spring, Richard

Whrttingdale. John

Squire, Rachel

Wicks, Malcolm

Stanley, rh Sir John

Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

Wiggin, Bill

Steinberg, Gerry

Wilkinson, John

Stewart, David(Inverness E & Lochaber)

Willetts, David

Wills, Michael

Stewart Ian(Eccles)

Wills, Brian

Straw, rh Jack

Winnick, David

Streeter, Gary

Winterton, Ann(Congleton)

Stringer, Graham

Winterton, Sir Nicholas(Macclesfield)

Stuart, Ms Gisela

Winterton, Ms Rosie(Doncaster C)

Sutcliffe, Gerry

Swayne, Desmond

Woolas, Phil

Swire, Hugo(EDevon)

Wnght Anthony D.(Gt Yarmouth)

Syms, Robert

Tami, Mark(Alyn)

Wright, David(Telford)

Taylor, rh Ann(Dewsbury)

Yeo, Tim(S Suffolk)

Taylor, Dari(Stockton S)

Young, rh Sir George

Taylor, John(Solihull)

Thomas, Gareth(Clwyd W)

Tellers for the Noes:

Thomas, Gareth(Harrow W)

Jim Fitzpatrick and

Timms, Stephen

Joan Ryan

Question accordingly negatived.
7.13 pm
Main Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 434, Noes 124.

Division No. 97]

[7:13pm

AYES

Adams, Irene(Paisley N)

Begg, Miss Anne

Ainger, Nick

Beggs, Roy(E Antrim)

Ainsworth, Bob(Cov'try NE)

Bell, Stuart

Alexander, Douglas

Bellingham, Henry

Amess, David

Benn, Hilary

Ancram, rh Michael

Bercow, John

Anderson, rh Donald(Swansea E)

Beresford, Sir Paul

Anderson, Janet(Rossendale & Darwen)

Blackman, Liz

Blair, rh Tony

Arbuthnot, rh James

Blears, Ms Hazel

Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

Blizzard, Bob

Atherton, Ms Candy

Blunkett, rh David

Atkins, Charlotte

Blunt, Crispin

Atkinson, David(Bour"mth E)

Boateng, rh Paul

Atkinson, Peter(Hexham)

Borrow, David

Bacon, Richard

Boswell, Tim

Bailey, Adrian

Bottomley, Peter(Worthing W)

Baird, Vera

Bradley, rh Keith(Withington)

Baldry, Tony

Bradley, Peter(The Wrekin)

Barker, Gregory

Bradshaw, Ben

Baron, John(Billericay)

Brady, Graham

Barron, rh Kevin

Brazier, Julian

Bayley, Hugh

Brennan, Kevin

Beard, Nigel

Brown, rh Gordon(Dunfermline E)

Beckett, rh Margaret

368

Brown, rh Nicholas(Newcastle E Wallsend)

Eagle, Maria(L"pool Garston)

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Brown, Russell(Dumfries)

Ennis, Jeff(Barnsley)

Browne, Desmond

Evans, Nigel

Browning, Mrs Angela

Fabricant, Michael

Bryant, Chris

Fallon, Michael

Burgon, Colin

Field, rh Frank(Birkenhead)

Burnham, Andy

Field, Mark(Cities of London & Westminster)

Burns, Simon

Burnside, David

Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

Burt, Alistair

Flight, Howard

Byers, rh Stephen

Flint, Caroline

Caborn, rh Richard

Flook, Adrian

Cairns, David

Follett, Barbara

Cameron, David

Forth, rh Eric

Campbell, Alan(Tynemouth)

Foster, rh Derek

Campbell, Mrs Anne(C'bridge)

Foster, Michael(Worcester)

Campbell, Gregory(E Lond'y)

Foster, Michael Jabez(Hastings & Rye)

Caplin, Ivor

Casale, Roger

Foulkes, rh George

Cash, William

Fox, Dr. Liam

Cawsey, Ian(Brigg)

Francois, Mark

Chapman, Ben(Wirral S)

Gale, Roger(N Thanet)

Chapman, Sir Sydney(Chipping Barnet)

Gapes, Mike(Ilford S)

Gardiner, Barry

Chope, Christopher

Garnier, Edward

Clappison, James

George, rh Bruce(Walsall S)

Clark, Mrs Helen(Peterborough)

Gibb, Nick(Bognor Regis)

Clark, Dr. Lynda(Edinburgh Pentlands)

Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

Gilroy, Linda

Clark, Paul(Gillingham)

Goggins, Paul

Clarke, rh Charles(Norwich S)

Goodman, Paul

Clelland, David

Gray, James(N Wilts)

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Grayling, Chris

Clwyd, Ann(Cynon V)

Green, Damian(Ashford)

Coaker, Vernon

Greenway, John

Coffey, Ms Ann

Grieve, Dominic

Collins, Tim

Griffiths, Jane(Reading E)

Colman, Tony

Griffiths, Nigel(Edinburgh S)

Conway, Derek

Griffiths, Win(Bridgend)

Cook, rh Robin(Livingston)

Grogan, John

Cooper, Yvette

Gummer, rh John

Cormack, Sir Patrick

Hague, rh William

Corston, Jean

Hain, rh Peter

Cran, James(Beverley)

Hall, Mike(Weaver Vale)

Cranston, hon. Ross

Hammond, Philip

Cruddas, Jon

Hanson, David

Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack(Copeland)

Harman, rh Ms Harriet

Harris, Tom(Glasgow Cathcart)

Cunningham, Jim(Coventry S)

Havard, Dai(Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)

Cunningham, Tony(Workington)

Curry, rh David

Hawkins, Nick

Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire

Hayes, John(S Holland)

Darling, rh Alistair

Heald, Oliver

David, Wayne

Healey, John

Davidson, Ian

Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

Davies, Geraint(Croydon C)

Henderson, Ivan(Harwich)

Davies, Quentin(Grantham & Stamford)

Hendrick, Mark

Hendry, Charles

Davis, rh David(Haltemprice & Howden)

Hepburn, Stephen

Heppell, John

Dean, Mrs Janet

Hermon, Lady

Denham, rh John

Hesford, Stephen

Dhanda, Parmjit

Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia

Dismore, Andrew

Hill, Keith(Streatham)

Djanogly, Jonathan

Hoban, Mark(Fareham)

Dodds, Nigel

Hope, Phil(Corby)

Donaldson, Jeffrey M.

Horam, John(Orpington)

Donohoe, Brian H.

Howard, rh Michael

Dorrell, rh Stephen

Howarth, rh Alan(Newport E)

Dowd, Jim(Lewisham W)

Howarth, George(Knowsley N & Sefton E)

Drown, Ms Julia

Duncan, Alan(Rutland)

Howarth, Gerald(Aldershot)

Duncan, Peter(Galloway)

Howells, Dr. Kim

Duncan Smith, rh lain

Hughes, Beverley(Stretford & Urmston)

Eagle, Angela(Wallasey)

369

Hughes, Kevin(Doncaster N)

Marris, Rob(Wolverh"ton SW)

Humble, Mrs Joan

Marsden, Gordon(Blackpool S)

Hunter, Andrew

Martlew, Eric

Hurst, Alan(Braintree)

Mates, Michael

Hutton, rh John

Maude, rh Francis

Ingram, rh Adam

Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

Irranca-Davies, Huw

May, Mrs Theresa

Jack, rh Michael

Meacher, rh Michael

Jackson, Robert(Wantage)

Mercer, Patrick

Jamieson, David

Merron, Gillian

Jenkin, Bernard

Michael, rh Alun

Jenkins, Brian

Milburn, rh Alan

Johnson, Alan(Hull W)

Miliband, David

Johnson, Boris(Henley)

Miller Andrew

Jones, Helen(Warrington N)

Mitchell, Andrew(Sutton Coldfield)

Jones, Kevan(N Durham)

Jowell, rh Tessa

Mitchell, Austin(Gt Grimsby)

Joyce, Eric(Falkirk W)

Moffatt, Laura

Kaufman, rh Gerald

Mole Chris

Keeble, Ms Sally

Moonie Dr Lewis

Keen, Alan(Feltham)

Moran Margaret

Keen, Ann(Brentford)

Morley, Elliot

Kelly, Ruth(Bolton W)

Morris rh Estelle

Kemp Fraser

Moss, Malcolm

Kennedy, Jane(Wavertree)

Mountford, Kali

Key, Robert(Salisbury)

Mudie, George

Khabra, Piara S.

Mullin, Chris

Kidney, David

Mullin, Chris

King, Andy(Rugby)

Murphy, rh Paul(Torfaen)

King, Ms Oona(Bethnal Green & Bow)

Murphy. Jim(Eastwood)

Murphy, rh Paul(Torfaen)

Kirkbride, Miss Julie

Murrison, Dr. Andrew

Knight, rh Greg(E Yorkshire)

Normaa Archie

Knight, Jim(S Dorset)

Norris, Dan(Wansdyke)

Kumar, Dr. Ashok

O"Brien' Bill(Normanton)

Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

O"Brlen, Mike (N Warks)

Laing, Mrs Eleanor

O'Brien, Stepnen(Eddisbury)

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

O'Hara, Edward

Lammy, David

Olner, Bill

Lansley, Andrew

O"Neill, Martin

Laxton, Bob(Derby N)

Osborne, George(Tatton)

Leigh, Edward

Osborne, Sandra(Ayr)

Leslie. Christopher

Ottaway, Richard

Letwin, rh Oliver

Paice, James

Levitt, Tom(High Peak)

palmer, Dr. Nick

Lewis, Ivan(Bury S)

Paterson, Owen

Lewis, Dr. Julian(New Forest E)

Pearson, Ian

Liddell, rh Mrs Helen

Picking, Anne

Liddell-Grainger, Ian

Pickles, Eric

Lidington, David

Pickthall, Colin

Lilley, rh Peter

Plaskitt, James

Linton, Martin

Pond, Chris(Gravesham)

Loughton, Tim

Pope, Greg(Hyndburn)

Love, Andrew

Portillo, rh Michael

Lucas, Ian(Wrexham)

Prentice, Ms Bridget(Lewisham E)

Luff, Peter(M-Worcs)

McAvoy, Thomas

Prescott, rh John

McCabe, Stephen

Primarolo, rh Dawn

McCartney, rh Ian

Prisk, Mark(Hertford)

McDonagh, Siobhain

Prosser, Gwyn

MacDonald, Calum

Purchase, Ken

MacDougall, John

Quin, rh Joyce

McFall, John

Quinn, Lawrie

McGuire, Mrs Anne

Randall, John

McIntosh, Miss Anne

Rapson, Syd(Portsmouth N)

McIsaac, Shona

Raynsford, rh Nick

Mackay, rh Andrew

Redwood, rh John

McKenna, Rosemary

Reed, Andy(Loughborough)

Mackinlay, Andrew

Reid, rh Dr. John(Hamilton N & Bellshill)

Maclean, rh David

McLoughlin, Patrick

Robathan, Andrew

McNulty, Tony

Robertson, Hugh(Faversham & M-Kent)

MacShane, Denis

McWalter, Tony

Robertson, John(Glasgow Anniesland)

Mandelson, rh Peter

Mann, John(Bassetlaw)

Robertson, Laurence(Tewk'b'ry)

370

Robinson, Geoffrey(Coventry NW)

Taylor, rh Ann(Dewsbury)

Taylor, Dari(Stockton S)

Robinson, Mrs Iris(Strangford)

Taylor, Ian(Esher)

Robinson, Peter(Belfast E)

Taylor, John(Solihull)

Roche, Mrs Barbara

Thomas, Gareth(Clwyd W)

Roe, Mrs Marion

Thomas, Gareth(Harrow W)

Rosindell, Andrew

Timms, Stephen

Ross, Ernie(Dundee W)

Tipping, Paddy

Roy, Frank(Motherwell)

Todd, Mark(S Derbyshire)

Ruane, Chris

Touhig, Don(Islwyn)

Ruffley, David

Tredinnick, David

Russell, Ms Christine(City of Chester)

Trickett, Jon

Trimble, rh David

Selous, Andrew

Taylor, Andrew(Isle of Wight)

Shaw, Jonathan

Turner, Dennis(Wolverh'ton SE)

Sheerman, Barry

Turner, Neil(Wigan)

Shepherd, Richard

Twigg, Derek(Halton)

Sheridan, Jim

Twigg, Stephen(Enfield)

Short, rh Clare

Tyrie, Andrew

Simmonds, Mark

Vaz, Keith(Leicester E)

Simon, Siôri(B'ham Erdington)

Viggers, Peter

Simpson, Keith(M-Norfolk)

Walter, Robert

Smith, rh Andrew(Oxford E)

Ward, Claire

Smith, Geraldine(Morecambe & Lunesdale)

Waterson, Nigel

Watkinson, Angela

Smith, Jacqui(Redditch)

Watson, Tom(W Bromwich E)

Smith, John(Glamorgan)

Watts, David

Smyth, Rev. Martin(Belfast S)

White, Brian

Soames, Nicholas

Whitehead, Dr. Alan

Soley, Clive

Whittingdale, John

Southworth, Helen

Wicks' Malcolm

Spellar, rh John

Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

Spellar, rh John

Wiggin, Bill

Spelman, Mrs Caroline

Wilkinson, John

Spicer, Sir Michael

Willetts, David

Spink, Bob(Castle Point)

williams, rh Alan(Swansea w)

Spring, Richard

Wills Michael

Squire, Rachel

Wilshire David

Stanley, rh Sir John

Wilson, Brian

Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

Winnick, David

Steen, Anthony

Winterton, Ann(Congleton)

Steinberg, Gerry

Winterton, Sir Nicholas(Macclesfield)

Stewart, David(Inverness E & Lochaber)

Winterton, Ms Rosie(Doncaster C)

Stewart, Ian(Eccles)

Stinchcombe, Paul

Woolas, Phil

Straw, rh Jack

Wright, Anthony D.(Gt Yarmouth)

Streeter, Gary

Stringer, Graham

Wright, David(Telford)

Stuart, Ms Gisela

Wright, Tony(Cannock)

Sutcliffe, Gerry

Yeo, Tim(S Suffolk)

Swayne, Desmond

Young, rh Sir George

Swire, Hugo(E Devon)

Syms, Robert

Tellers for the Ayes:

Tami, Mark(Alyn)

Jim Fitzpatrick and

Tapsell, Sir Peter

Joan Ryan

NOES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Carmichael, Alistair

Allan, Richard

Caton, Martin

Allen, Graham

Chidgey, David

Baker, Norman

Clapham, Michael

Barnes, Harry

Clarke, Tony(Northampton S)

Barrett, John

Cohen, Harry

Beith, rh A. J.

Corbyn, Jeremy

Best, Harold

Cotter, Brian

Brake, Tom(Carshalton)

Cox, Tom(Tooting)

Breed, Colin

Cryer, Ann(Keighley)

Brooke, Mrs Annette L

Cryer, John(Hornchurch)

Bruce, Malcolm

Dalyell, Tam

Burden, Richard

Davey, Edward(Kingston)

Burnett, John

Davis, rh Terry(B'ham Hodge H)

Burstow, Paul

Dawson, Hilton

Cable, Dr. Vincent

Doughty, Sue

Calton, Mrs Patsy

Drew, David(Stroud)

Campbell, Ronnie(Blyth V)

Ewing, Annabelle

371

Fisher, Mark

Oaten, Mark(Winchester)

Flynn, Paul(Newport W)

Öpik, Lembit

Foster, Don(Bath)

Owen, Albert

Galloway, George

Perham, Linda

George, Andrew(St. Ives)

Prentice, Gordon(Pendle)

Gerrard, Neil

Price, Adam(E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

Gibson, Dr. Ian

Gidley, Sandra

Pugh, Dr. John

Green, Matthew(Ludlow)

Reid, Alan(Argyll & Bute)

Hamilton, David(Midlothian)

Rendel, David

Hancock, Mike

Robertson, Angus(Moray)

Harris, Dr. Evan(Oxford W & Abingdon)

Russell, Bob(Colchester)

Salmond, Alex

Harvey, Nick

Sanders, Adrian

Heath, David

Sarwar, Mohammad

Holmes, Paul

Savidge, Malcolm

Hood, Jimmy(Clydesdale)

Sawford, Phil

Hopkins, Kelvin

Sedgemore, Brian

Hughes, Simon(Southwark N)

Simpson, Alan(Nottingham S)

Hume, John(Foyle)

Skinner, Dennis

Jackson, Glenda(Hampstead & Highgate)

Smith, Llew(Blaenau Gwent)

Smith, Sir Robert(W Ab"d"ns &Kincardine)

Jones, Jon Owen(Cardiff C)

Jones, Lynne(Selly Oak)

Stevenson, George

Jones, Nigel(Cheltenham)

stunell, Andrew

Keetch Paul

Taylor, David(NW Leics)

Kennedy, rh Charles(Ross Skye & Inverness)

Taylor, Matthew(Truro)

Taylor, Dr. Richard(Wyre F)

Thomas, Simon(Ceredigion)

Kilfoyle Peter

Thurso, John

Kirkwood, Sir Archy

Tonge, Dr. Jenny

Lamb, Norman

Turner Desmond(Brighton Kemptown)

Laws, David(Yeovil)

Lewis, Terry(Worsley)

Tyler, Paul(N Cornwall)

Llwyd, Elfyn

Vis, Dr. Rudi

Luke, Iain(Dundee E)

Walley, Ms Joan

Lyons, John(Strathkelvin)

Wareing, Robert N.

McCafferty, Chris

Webb Steve(Nortnavon)

McDonnell, John

Weir Michael

McGrady, Eddie

Williams, Hywel(Caernarfon)

McNamara, Kevin

Williams, Roger(Brecon)

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Willis Phil

Mallon, Seamus

Wishart, Pete

Marsden, Paul(Shrewsbury & Atcham)

Wood, Mike(Batley)

Worthington, Tony

Marshall, Jim(Leicester S)

Younger-Ross, Richard

Marshall-Andrews, Robert

Moore, Michael

Tellers for the Noes:

Morgan, Julie

Mr. Douglas Hogg and

Murphy, Denis(Wansbeck)

Mr. Tony Lloyd

Question accordingly agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House takes note of Command Paper Cm 5769 on Iraq; reaffirms its endorsement of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441, as expressed in its Resolution of 25th November 2002; supports the Government's continuing efforts in the United Nations to disarm Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction; and calls upon Iraq to recognise this as its final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations.

PETITIONS

  Fireworks
  7.28 pm
  Mr. Gordon Marsden: I present the petition of some 1,900 constituents in Blackpool, South who are supporters of restrictions on the sale and use of fireworks. I am delighted to do so and to give the petition—and the Bill sponsored this Friday by my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton, South (Mr. Tynan)—my strong support.
  372
  The petition states:
  To the House of Commons
  The Petition of the residents of Blackpool South declares that fireworks can cause unacceptable distress and disturbance if discharged on inappropriate days and at inappropriate times.
  The Petitioners therefore request that this House of Commons urge the Government to conduct an urgent review of fireworks legislation and, in particular, to legislate (1) to restrict the times of the year fireworks can be bought, (2) to restrict the times of day that fireworks can be set off and (3) to license all vendors of fireworks to meet strict safety criteria and to give trading standards the power to revoke the licence of any vendors caught selling fireworks to under-age children.
  And the Petitioners remain, etc.
  To lie upon the Table.

  Murder Sentence
  7.30 pm
  Mr. Mark Todd: I wish to present a petition signed by over 13,000 residents of Burton upon Trent, South Derbyshire and other areas concerning the sentence passed on the murderer David Bond, who killed Debbie Buxton in my constituency in 1993. I am joined in this by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer), who represents another victim of the same murderer.
  The petition reads:
  The petition of residents of Burton upon Trent and South Derbyshire declares that the sentence of murder David Bond has been reduced from a minimum 40 years to a minimum 25 years.
  The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Home Office to further review the case and reimpose the original sentence of 40 years immediately.
  And the petitioners remain, etc.
  To lie upon the Table.

  Fireworks
  7.31 pm
  John Robertson: I am delighted to present a petition calling for the urgent review of existing fireworks legislation, a petition signed by over 3,758 of my constituents.
  The petition is timely, as it comes just before—on Friday—my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton, South (Mr. Tynan) introducing his private Member's Bill on the subject. My hon. Friend has today delivered to Downing Street an 80,000-strong petition. It
  Declares that the existing legislation on fireworks is in need of urgent review.
  The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to bring forward legislative proposals to require all public firework displays to be controlled by licensed pyrotechnicians; to restrict the times of year that fireworks can be purchased; to restrict the time of day that fireworks can be used; to license all vendors of fireworks to meet strict safety criteria; and to revoke the licence of any vendor found selling fireworks to under-age children.
  And the petitioners remain, etc.
  To lie upon the Table.

  European Developments
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Dan Norris.]
  7.32 pm
  Mr. David Atkinson: On 1 May next year, 10 countries will join the European Union. Anticipating this enlargement, the Laeken Declaration established the EU convention to come forward with proposals for reform. It would also recommend a wider agenda for the intergovernmental conference to agree in a revised treaty. It is this wider agenda on the future of Europe that has prompted this debate.
  The debate is timely, because the convention has just published a draft treaty establishing a constitution for Europe which would give legal effect to a set of rights as defined in the EU charter of fundamental rights. This confirms fears that the outcome of the IGC will threaten the primacy of Europe's largest and oldest intergovernmental and inter-parliamentary institution, the Council of Europe, and in particular one of its principal assets: the European convention on human rights and the Court in Strasbourg.
  To defend all that the Council of Europe continues to achieve and to ensure that the enlarging European Union will not threaten or undermine its future is the purpose of this debate. I initiate it as a member of the British delegation in the Parliamentary Assembly for the past 23 years, as the current leader of the Conservative delegation, and as chairman of the European Democratic Group, the Conservative centre-right group in the Assembly.
  I am encouraged that the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr. Davis), who is the leader of the Socialist Group in the Assembly, the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd), who is the leader of the British delegation, and the hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce), who leads the Liberal delegation, also hope to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  It is a sad fact of life that, owing to the lack of resources provided for it, the Council of Europe is comparatively unrecognised by the public and is frequently confused with the European Parliament. Let it be recalled that it was established in 1949 by people of vision and courage committed to a Europe of justice and equality, freedom and peace, based on democracy, human rights and the rule of law. It is the forum within which our continent's disputes are resolved through dialogue and debate. In his Zurich speech of 1946, Winston Churchill foresaw it as
  "a European group which could give a … common citizenship to the distracted peoples of this turbulent and mighty continent".
  None of us who were present in Strasbourg in July 1989 will forget the historic moment when Mikhail Gorbachev described the Council of Europe as "the Common European Home" that Russia would one day join. Since then, 20 countries of the former Soviet empire in Europe have joined—a process that I had the privilege to preside over for four years as chairman of the committee responsible for non-member states, in addition to being the first rapporteur for the accession of Russia.
  When European Union officials and members of the European Parliament say that the forthcoming enlargement of the Union will reunite Europe, they are
  374
  wrong. Europe has already been reunited in the Council of Europe, which today comprises 44 member states. The principal message that I want to convey to the House is that the forthcoming intergovernmental conference must avoid the creation of a second common home at the expense of ours. It should avoid the EU charter of fundamental rights competing with the European convention on human rights, and the Luxembourg Court clashing with the Strasbourg Court. It should prevent the broad legal framework that already exists for Europe, based on our 185 conventions, from competing with double standards imposed by the European Union. It should recognise the unique work by practical politicians—ourselves—in monitoring commitments entered into by member states upon accession as invaluable in establishing the acquis upon which these countries are judged by the European Union. It should respect the work of the Venice Commission, of the European Youth Centre Budapest, of the North-South Centre in Lisbon, and of all the instruments established under the European cultural convention, which effectively replaces 1,000 bilateral treaties. It should also avoid duplicating the outstanding work of our Congress of Local and Regional Authorities in promoting local democracy and transfrontier co-operation. It should, in short, avoid decisions that will threaten the primacy of the work of the Council of Europe and undermine the assets that we have been developing for more than half a century.
  During the past year, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe has been seeking to address these concerns by introducing well prepared recommendations, resolutions and orders to ensure that our organisation becomes a natural partner to the expanding European Union, and not its rival: to ensure that it co-operates with it, rather than competes with it. The organisation's secretary-general, Walter Schwimmer, has submitted a memorandum to the EU convention along similar lines. Common to our representations has been urging the European Union to accede to the European convention on human rights, which would eliminate risk of the divergence in case law for the protection of human rights in Europe that we fear. In addition, we urge that a third Council of Europe summit of heads of state and Governments take place before commencement of the intergovernmental conference, so that it can take account of what the EU convention proposes, thereby avoiding decisions being taken that might introduce new divides.
  Recently, my hon. Friends the Members for Chipping Barnet (Sir Sydney Chapman) and for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson), the noble Baronesses Knight and Hooper and I submitted our own representations to the EU Convention. We appreciated the assistance of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory), who is also a member. In our paper, we point out that the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe is the only inter-parliamentary Assembly exclusive to Europe, and that it will soon be representative of every European national Parliament. Thus our Assembly is the true democratic dimension of Europe. It can make up the so-called "democratic deficit" that, it is suggested, exists because national Parliaments are not represented in the European Union.That we represent non-EU member states should be considered an asset rather than an impediment when it comes to promoting a continental ideal.

  375
  In that context, I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), who also represents us on the EU Convention. She took a personal interest in the assembly of the Western European Union in Paris. In her address to the last part-session in December, she recognised the need to maintain and develop mechanisms for inter-parliamentary scrutiny of the EU.
  All of us were encouraged by the address from the Minister for Europe at last month's Strasbourg part-session, especially when he said that the Council of Europe would continue to play a vital role a common European forum, and that the place of the European Court of Human Rights in the European human rights architecture must not be undermined. However, we recall that his predecessor, the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), told the House that the EU charter of fundamental rights would be of no more legal significance than a copy of the Beano. In fact, that charter has now emerged as article 6 of the draft of the treaty establishing a constitution for Europe.
  We fear that, in the casino of consensus and compromise that EU summits inevitably become, the forthcoming intergovernmental conference will decide that the Council of Europe is expendable, and that it will be allowed to wither on the vine as the EU, with all its considerable resources, takes on ever more of what we do best. I therefore urge the Minister to assure the House that the role and the work of the Council of Europe will remain pre-eminent throughout the continent until the nations of Europe can agree to the single, confederal institution that Winston Churchill saw would be a "United States of Europe", to which all of us should, eventually, belong.
  7.42 pm
  Mr. Terry Davis: I congratulate the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Atkinson) on taking the initiative to arrange this debate. I also want to thank him for his work as leader of the Conservative group in the Council of Europe Assembly. On behalf of the Socialist group in the Assembly—Labour members from this country and the nearly 200 socialist representatives from the 44 member countries in the Council of Europe—I should like to emphasise to my hon. Friend the Minister the fact that socialist group members would agree completely with everything that the hon. Gentleman said in his opening remarks.
  It would be a tragedy if the development of the EU were allowed to damage what has been achieved in Europe by the Council of Europe and the Assembly over the past 50 years. I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for attending the January part-session, when he attended a meeting of the socialist group. He understands the robust discussion going on in that group, but all our members agree that it would be a great mistake to allow the Council of Europe to be damaged. I therefore urge my hon. Friend to take on board the very serious point that the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East made about avoiding rivalry, competition and conflict to emerge between two courts.
  It would be terrible if establishing a legally binding charter of fundamental human rights in the EU were to lead to any conflict in the decisions reached by the
  376
  European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights. We all look to the Government to ensure that that does not happen.
  7.43 pm
  Malcolm Bruce: I add my congratulations to the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Atkinson) for bringing this matter to the House. Those hon. Members who are members of the parliamentary delegation to the Council of Europe have already debated the issues, but it is important to put on record in the House of Commons the importance of getting the development right. We support EU enlargement, and its consequences, including the development of a European constitution, are desirable and welcome.
  I am a spokesman for a party that is strongly pro-Europe. It may appear surprising, therefore, that I welcome the fact that constitutions both define and limit powers. It is appropriate that the process of defining the EU's powers should also limit them. There will be more than 20 countries—once one or two more have acceded to the Council of Europe—that will not join the EU, so it is extremely important that the positive work done by the Council continues.
  The Minister has heard me say before that the ECHR—of which members of the Council of Europe have every reason to be inordinately proud, given what it has done for more than 50 years and continues to achieve—is the basis of human rights law in Europe. A competitive court would undermine and devalue that, and it is not necessary.
  The specific point that I make to the Minister is that the suggestion that the EU should accede to the ECHR, which has been resisted in some quarters, has a lot to commend it for the very simple reason that it would put EU institutions on exactly the same basis as national institutions in relation to human rights.
  It is odd that, as things stand now, citizens in the Council of Europe states—indeed, in the United Kingdom—may take Government or public institutions to court for human rights abuses under the ECHR, but they have no such redress if those abuses are carried out by EU agencies. That anomaly cannot be tolerated, and adopting the charter of fundamental rights into the constitution does not solve that.
  Indeed, as has been said already, that anomaly creates an unnecessary and undesirable complication, so I urge the Minister to take that point seriously; he has heard it made in many quarters, and I honestly believe that that would be the way to ensure that EU enlargement and the work of the Council of Europe continue together in a constructive, rather than conflicting, mode.
  7.46 pm
  Mr. Tony Lloyd: I, too, thank the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Atkinson), who is our hon. Friend in this context because, in the spirit of the relationship between the members of the British delegation, he has invited all three parties represented in the Chamber tonight to take part in this short debate.
  Of course the issues raised are fundamentally important. The point has been made already, but it is well worth reiterating, that Europe beyond any

  377
  boundary that the EU is likely to have for the foreseeable future still contains a considerable landmass and population. Those people are represented in the Council of Europe, so it has a primacy not only in its longevity, but in its extent. It is important to remember that, because the Council of Europe plays the role of guarantor of democratic standards and human rights.
  That role may be taken for granted in a country such as ours, but it has been fundamentally important in the reconstruction of constitutional Governments in parts of Europe that, until relatively recently, did not have that opportunity. So I certainly pay tribute to the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East and, indeed, to my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr. Davis) for their role in precisely that integration process.
  We have a friend and supporter in the Minister. Perhaps to my shame, he did something that I did not do when I was a Minister: he took the trouble to visit the Parliamentary Assembly recently. His visit was very well received, not only by the British delegation, but by members throughout the Assembly. However, we look to him to take on board those reasonable requests. Hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber would want to support all the points that the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East made.
  Again, I emphasise that there need be no conflict between the Strasbourg and Luxembourg courts, but it is vital that institutional furniture is rearranged to ensure that no such conflict is built in, because the argument used against the incorporation of the EU into convention territory was that it would automatically force a conflict between the Luxembourg and Strasbourg courts. We need the convention to sort that out and to make sure that that possibility does not arise.
  Again, I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East for his efforts tonight.
  7.49 pm
  The Minister for Europe (Mr. Denis MacShane): What a pleasure to have four contributions in a short Adjournment debate, as well as some time for me to reply. I, too, pay tribute to the sterling quality—indeed, the euro quality—of the members of the British parliamentary delegation to the Council of Europe.
  We have heard the speech of the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Atkinson), and a short and pointed contribution from my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr. Davis), whom I saw presiding over the most heterogeneous group of parliamentarians debating Iraqi issues. I assure you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that even the finest training in your Chair might not prepare you for the majesty with which he brought all of those different points of view together.
  The hon. Member for Bournemouth, East referred to the EU as a casino of consensus and compromise. I am not a great expert on casinos, and I did not know that they were the location of consensus and compromise, but it is not the worst thing in Europe that we find ways of coming together, as the hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) and my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) pointed out. There is a British esprit de corps in the delegation, and it was a pleasure to attend and speak to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council
  378
  of Europe and to read out part of the speech of my opposite number, the Minister for European affairs of the Republic of France. In these interesting times, it is not the worst thing in the world that I can speak for France—reading her speech word for word—and it does not seem to cause great upset or outrage.
  Hon. Members have rightly made the point that the Council of Europe is our oldest European parliamentary association or assembly. I keep insisting, as I have done all my life, as a strong supporter of the European Union, that there is much more to Europe than the EU. Perhaps because two of my children were born in Switzerland, I am conscious that Europe's oldest confederal state may have a part to play. The Council of Europe, with its 44 members, representing 850 million European citizens, remains an important part of the architecture of European institutions. It is not well known enough and its work does not get the publicity that it deserves. If I may, I commend to all hon. Members Lord Judd's excellent article in The House magazine on Chechnya. His involvement stems from his membership of the Council of Europe—I am not commenting on the Chechnyan issue, but his article is well worth reading and reflecting on.
  That is exactly the role of the Council of Europe: it allows parliamentarians from all its 44 member countries to winnow their way into the most difficult and complex situations in a fashion that the European Union, which is a consensual and compromise-based institution, and national Governments, which must have distinct bilateral relationships with different countries, cannot do. I therefore regard its work as having the highest importance. As long as I am the Minister responsible for it, it is assured of my strongest ministerial backing. It is certainly no penance, as Minister for Europe, to make the occasional foray into that great European capital of Strasbourg.
  The two organisations, the EU and the Council of Europe, have distinct roles, but they are mutually reinforcing on human rights and other issues. Undoubtedly, the Council of Europe's institution-building programmes have assisted former communist countries to prepare for EU membership. We should note the remarkable achievement, in barely more than a decade, whereby countries in which democracy, freedom of expression and respect for minorities were hardly known under their dictatorship systems are now being welcomed into membership of the European Parliament.
  Malcolm Bruce: Will the Minister also acknowledge, as it has certainly struck me, that we have something to learn from the new democracies, which sometimes find new and better ways of doing things than the old democracies? It is a two-way process.
  Mr. MacShane: One of the great pleasures that I have found since joining the Government is that we always have something to learn. I believe that our country has as much to learn from Europe, as we have to contribute occasionally to the process of European construction.
  The hon. Member for Bournemouth, East mentioned some examples, but let us also note that the European Union and the Council of Europe can co-operate, for instance, in joint financing of key programmes for countries such as Russia, Albania, and Ukraine. We

  379
  now face the discussion in the Convention on the Future of Europe, which will touch on aspects of the role and work of the Council of Europe. The Convention is important. It will allow us to come to some agreement on how to make the European Union better able to cope with its new members.
  The Convention is a unique creature. Its membership allows for broader discussion and consultation than has ever been possible in the European Union before. Its task is difficult: to pave the way for the EU of the future.
  Mr. Richard Bacon: Unlike other hon. Members present, I am not an expert on the Council of Europe. I am more interested in the Convention, which is exceptionally important. The Minister mentioned the huge amount of discussions, but according to the Government, those discussions have been ignored by the praesidium in the drafting of articles. When will there be an opportunity to debate this issue more fully on the Floor of the House?
  Mr. MacShane: There will be a lengthy Westminster Hall debate on the issue next Wednesday, and I invite the hon. Member to take part. We have had a debate on the Convention on the Future of Europe in the past couple of weeks, and I am open for any private meetings that hon. Members want. We should note that 1,000 amendments have now been tabled to the draft that the praesidium presented, so there is plenty of work to be done. If the EU is a casino of compromise and consensus, my goodness, I do not envy the Convention's work. It will be the biggest compositing meeting of any political institution in history.
  We have to get things right. Europe cannot continue with uncertainty over how to bring in 10 new members. None of us wants a European Union in which—topick countries out of the air—Malta, Estonia or Luxembourg can exercise a veto on future development. We need to get the relationships right in dealing with human rights and other issues dealt with by the European Court of Human Rights.
  Mr. Kevin McNamara: Is the real problem the prospect of having two sets of laws—one for the rich countries and another for the poorer countries? Once the poorer countries are in that situation, all the problems of abuses of human rights will appear again because they do not have the bolster of what is already present and accepted in the major countries.
  Mr. MacShane: The hon. Gentleman is right. The European Court of Human Rights is a beacon. All countries in Europe—those in the EU, those coming into the EU and those who will be outside the EU for some time—will have to consider their legal systems in order to bring them up to the common standards that we all want to see in democracies.
  I shall take no more interventions in the brief time remaining—although it has been a pleasure in an Adjournment debate to have a real debate and to answer questions, especially those posed by hon. Members who spoke earlier.
  The Government support the values and principles set out in the charter, as a political declaration. However, as we have said for some time, we would have serious legal
  380
  and practical problems if the declaration were incorporated into a constitutional treaty without appropriate clarifications and safeguards. Such points have been well made by British delegates to the Convention. Other countries will have similar problems in working out whether their constitutional rules in a number of areas will be subordinate to any charter of fundamental rights that was incorporated into a constitutional treaty. I do not want to pre-empt that process; the discussion will continue. It could, indeed, continue at the third Council of Europe summit, to which the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East referred. The idea will be discussed at the Council of Europe ministerial meeting in May, and I am not against it.
  Since I have been a Minister, the principal request that I have from countries all over the world and from other institutions is for my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to attend this or that event. At times, I feel that 1 have to defend him, so that he can spend a little time in the House of Commons and occasionally get on with the domestic business of running the United Kingdom. Therefore, I am not entirely sure that I am able from the Dispatch Box to commit my right hon. Friend to attending a Heads of Government summit. However, the request will be considered.
  There is also the issue of whether the European Union should accede to the European convention on human rights. There is a good case for that but, as I explained at the Parliamentary Assembly in January when I quoted directly from the French Government, both the British and French Governments and other European Governments are concerned about the impact that such accession would have on the competencies of the Union and on the position of individual member states in relation to protocols, reservations and the ability to derogate. Those of us who are aware of the issue of asylum seekers know that it is a live one—not just in the press and public life, but in our constituency advice bureaux and surgeries. It is another issue that we need to examine.
  We also need to consider how we can accelerate and make more effective the huge logjam of cases before the European Court of Human Rights. Justice delayed is justice denied. I have had very good talks with the president and the British judge on the court in Strasbourg. However, we must get the matter right, and do not need the simple and intellectually and politically attractive demand of EU accession to the European convention on human rights to result in a nightmare of legal confusion. These difficult and complex questions will have to be worked out in the EU Convention. I assure hon. Members of my continued interest and involvement in them.
  The Council of Europe plays an important role. I respected it before and I have respected the work of the hon. Members and colleagues who serve on it. I am happy to support its future work as long as I hold this—
  The motion having been made after Seven o'clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at two minutes past Eight o'clock.