Commons Sitting of 21 October 2002

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  PRIVATE BUSINESS

    COMMITTEE OF SELECTION
    Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [16 October],
    That Mr. John Hayes be discharged from the Committee of Selection and Mr. Peter Luff be added to the Committee—[Mr. Woolas.]
    Hon. Members: Object.
    Debate to be resumed tomorrow.

Oral Answers to Questions
  WORK AND PENSIONS
  The Secretary of State was asked—
  WORK AND PENSIONS

    Pensions
    Mr. George Osborne: If he will make a statement on the number of final salary pension schemes that have closed in the last year. [73059]
    Mr. Mark Hoban: If he will make a statement on the Government's response to the Pickering report. [73061]
    Mr. Lindsay Hoyle: If he will make a statement on the powers of employers to reduce employees' final salary pension scheme. [73063]
    The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr. Andrew Smith): Final salary schemes remain the most widespread form of pension provision. Where there is a shift to money purchase, the key thing is the level of contributions rather than the nature of the scheme as such. It is clearly crucial that we have proper partnership between employers, employees, the financial services industry and Government, with each meeting their responsibilities.
    A simpler regulatory framework, as both Sandler and Pickering emphasised, would make it easier for companies and workers to save through good schemes. As the Green Paper will be consultative, hon. Members and the public will have every opportunity to influence policy before decisions are taken.
    Mr. Osborne: I note that the Secretary of State did not answer my question at all. May I ask him this supplementary question? Confidence in personal and occupational schemes will have been severely damaged this weekend by news that the Government are considering abolishing higher-rate tax relief on pension contributions—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I hear some cheering on the Labour Benches. The Government have tried to distance themselves from the story by saying that the adviser to Downing street is independent. To my mind, that reinforces the story. Will the Secretary of State give a simple yes or no answer: are the Government considering, at official or ministerial level, plans to abolish higher-rate tax relief on pension contributions? Yes or no?
    Mr. Smith: On the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, as hon. Members know, the review of statistics

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    from the Office for National Statistics recently made a number of recommendations as to how the collection of statistics might be improved. If the recommendation that more information should be collected through the employers and families surveys can be taken forward as we would like, it would give us better data.
    On the question about tax relief, as the hon. Gentleman and the House know, questions concerning taxation are matters for Budgets. We have no such plans; if we had such plans we would come to the House of Commons and say so. As hon. Members will understand, ahead of an important document such as the pensions Green Paper, Ministers receive all sorts of representations. I can tell the hon. Gentleman that Ministers have taken no decisions of the sort suggested—it is all fevered speculation. It would be best to wait and see what is in the pre-Budget report and the Green Paper itself.
    Mr. Hoban: Does the Secretary of State recognise that the abolition of higher-rate tax relief on pensions contributions would make it less and not more likely that people would save towards their retirement? Will that not lead to a deepening of the crisis in funded pension provision?
    Mr. Smith: I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was listening to the reply that I have just given. He will not tempt me to engage in hypothetical speculation on this important matter.
    Mr. Hoyle: Does my right hon. Friend share my concerns, following the actions of Scottish Widows and British Airways—to name but two—on final salary pension schemes? Will he consider a change in the law to ensure that employers hold full consultations so that those practices do not continue at the expense of people who work for such companies?
    Mr. Smith: As I said in my opening response, it is very important that all parties in pension provision—employers included—meet their responsibilities. I have discussed the issues with the CBI and we are encouraging the partnership discussions that are under way between the CBI and the TUC. It should be stressed hat good pension arrangements are crucial to business in recruiting and retaining a good work force. We shall address those issues further in the Green Paper.
    Mr. James Plaskitt: But is my right hon. Friend aware that management and ownership changes in companies can sometimes create problems? For example, management buy-outs sometimes give new managements the opportunity to tear up existing schemes. Does my right hon. Friend think that some additional measures to safeguard existing schemes should be provided in future to deal with such circumstances?
    Mr. Smith: Among the provisions that would address my hon. Friend's concern—which has been drawn to our attention—are the 401k arrangements that operate in the United States. As with other aspects of this matter, we shall be considering those as part of the Green Paper. As I pointed out earlier, hon. Members
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    and the general public, including trade unions and employers, will have full opportunity to make comments on the proposals in the Green Paper.
    Mr. Steve Webb: In my usual generous way, I fully accept that the Secretary of State inherited a complete mess in relation to pensions, for which he is not personally responsible, but does he accept that the situation now is urgent and that each day we have more bad news on final salary schemes and private sector pensions? Is he not concerned that, if we have a Green Paper in response to consultation papers, then consult on it, then legislate, it may be several years before workable legislation is in place, and that by then there may not be much of a pensions sector left? Does he not think that more urgent action is needed?
    Mr. Smith: This is an extremely important policy area to address, and to address properly. As the hon. Gentleman and the House will understand, pensions policy is, by definition, for the long term, and I believe that we will get the best policy on the basis of calm reflection. Yes, of course these are matters of urgency but with calm and proper consideration and consultation we can put something in place that is durable, and rebuild confidence in the pension promise. We would not do that through knee-jerk reaction to fevered press speculation.
    Mr. Clive Betts: Will the Secretary of State consider the position of workers such as those at United Engineering Forgings in Sheffield, which has gone into administration, putting their pension scheme at risk, and those whose employers decide to terminate a scheme against their wishes? In both cases, because the schemes are not fully funded and because of the prior claims of existing pensioners, additional voluntary contributions and so on, such workers find their expected future pensions cut in half or worse overnight. That is bad enough for any worker, but it is devastating for workers in their 40s and 50s, who have no chance of making up the loss. Will the Secretary of State take action to right what is a very obvious wrong in those cases?
    Mr. Smith: I share my hon. Friend's concern about the understandable anxiety—and in many cases anger—that workers feel having been put in that position. I have seen the reports of the comments of the independent Occupational Pension Advisory Service on the situation at Maersk, which is precisely such an instance. I have already asked that that sort of situation and the appropriate action that we can take be covered in the Green Paper.
    Mr. John Butterfill: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many homeowners rely on a tax-free lump sum to help to pay off their mortgages and that, if that were to he abolished, it would compound the difficulty that exists with endowment policies at the moment? Does he agree that the position is anomalous because, although many people would be better off putting all their lump sum into their pension rather than taking the tax-free amount, there is no parallel incentive for them to do so? Would they not be

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    better getting a proportion of tax relief by putting that sum into an annuity, as happens in other European countries?
    Mr. Smith: I am of course fully aware of the importance of the tax-free lump sum. As I made very clear in my statement to the House on 11 July, the effectiveness of incentives and how well they are understood must be one of the criteria against which we judge the Green Paper. As the hon. Gentleman will know, we have already said that we will say more about annuities when we produce the Green Paper.
    Ian Lucas: As pensions involve long-term financial arrangements, does the Secretary of State agree that any employer who is considering ending a final salary scheme should not only consult their work force but ensure that they consider the very substantial savings they have made when not contributing to pensions during a pension holiday in the past?
    Mr. Smith: Yes, indeed, and we have urged all employers who are contemplating changes to their schemes to consult the workers effectively.
    Mr. David Willetts: I am sure that the Secretary of State would not want to leave millions of savers in any doubt about his intentions with regard to their pension contributions, so to ensure that there is absolutely no wriggle room—no room for evasion and no room for ambiguity—may I ask him to make it absolutely clear to the House that he agrees with the National Association of Pension Funds that abolishing tax reliefs
    "for higher-rate tax payers is a very bad idea at a time when the government is supposed to be encouraging people to save for their retirement."?
    Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with that?
    Mr. Smith: I have already made it abundantly clear—I cannot make this clearer—that we have no such plans. Before accusing us of wanting to increase taxes, the Opposition spokesman ought to explain why his own shadow Chief Secretary has his name on the pension reform pamphlet that urges us to put up national insurance contributions by 2 per cent. He might also do well to remember that the last party to come before the House proposing the abolition of tax relief on pensions contributions was not us but the Conservatives, in the form of the then Secretary of State for Social Security, on 11 March 1997.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The Secretary of State should remember that it is his policies that we want to hear about.
    Mr. Willetts: I am afraid that we know how skilful the Government are at inventing new stealth taxes. That is why we want to read the Secretary of State's lips. All he has to say is, "We will not remove the tax reliefs currently enjoyed by people saving for their pensions."
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    That is what we want him to say; that is what millions of people saving for their pensions want him say; that is what we want to hear him say now.
    Mr. Smith: We will take every action that is necessary to safeguard the future of security in retirement in this country. The hon. Gentleman tempts me to make commitments that must be brought forward in the proper way through the pre-Budget report and the Green Paper. He is not going to get me to engage in hypothetical speculation on an issue on which I have made it clear that the Government have no plans.
    Mr. Willetts: I know that we are not allowed the full Jeremy Paxman 14 questions, but let me try just one more time. I am not trying to tempt the Secretary of State. I am trying on behalf of millions of people saving for their pensions to request him to give them an assurance—plain and simple, with no delay, prevarication or weeks of uncertainty—that he will not remove the tax incentives that people currently have to save for their pensions. That is the assurance that we are asking the right hon. Gentleman to give the House. Why will he not do so?
    Mr. Smith: Because—I could not have been clearer—we have no plans, and these are properly matters for the pre-Budget report and the Budget.
    David Winnick: Should not the whole emphasis be on protecting the future pension plans of those on modest incomes? There is tremendous disappointment that so many people now find that the best provision—the final salary scheme—will not be awarded to them. Is it not interesting that a number of companies that have discontinued such schemes have made sure that their chief executives, chairmen and so on get the most generous pension schemes possible, involving £50,000, £100,000 and £150,000 or more in pension, while their employers are denied a decent pension when they retire?
    Mr. Smith: Yes, indeed. My hon. Friend makes a very good point. It is crucial that the conclusions that we reach on pensions policy are guided by equity, consultation and fairness to the workers concerned. As I said in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Plaskitt), we are looking at the 401k proposals in the United States, which seek to establish that sort of equivalence.

    Student Nurses (Benefit Entitlement)
    Tom Brake: If he will make a statement on the benefit entitlement of student nurses. [73060]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Malcolm Wicks): Full-time students, including student nurses, are not generally entitled to receive income-related benefits while studying unless they are in a vulnerable group, such as people with disabilities or lone parents. Student nurses receive a non-repayable bursary which in many cases is more generous than the help available to full-time students in mainstream higher education. All students may claim

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    other social security benefits, subject to their satisfying the normal conditions of entitlement for the benefits concerned.
    Tom Brake: I thank the Minister for his response. I understand that next year there will be changes to child care benefits for student nurses, and I welcome that. However, I press the Minister to tell us the advice that he would give today to a constituent of mine who is studying but who cannot afford to pay for her child care costs and whose housing association property is at risk of repossession. Should she abandon her course or risk the financial consequences of pursuing it?
    Malcolm Wicks: I am happy to talk to the hon. Gentleman about that case, about which we have corresponded. I think that there has been a recent development whereby Sutton council, I assume, has been rather more helpful with housing benefit.
    In the national health service, we are now spending more than £300 million a year on NHS bursaries, and the first three rates increased by 10 per cent. last year. The NHS has its own child care strategy on which it will spend £100 million by 2004. As part of that strategy, there will be 150 on-site nurseries, which means that about a further 7,500 subsidised places will be available by 2004. However, I repeat that I am happy to talk about the particular case that the hon. Gentleman mentioned.
    Mr. Tony McWalter: Does not my hon. Friend agree, however, that it is anomalous, not to say unjust, that in many cases the loan that students receive is treated as income for the purposes of deciding whether they are eligible for benefit? Does he not want to take steps to rectify that injustice in view of the fact that it has some of the consequences mentioned by the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake)?
    Malcolm Wicks: It is appropriate that the help provided through loans and the non-payment of university tuition fees for low-income families is regarded as separate from the help we give people through the provision of income support and jobseeker's allowance when they are out of work. As I said, however, vulnerable groups have access to income-related benefits. It has always been the case that, subject to certain disregards, income sources are subtracted from income support entitlement. That is the case with student loans and it remains the policy.
    Sir Teddy Taylor: Is the Minister aware of the serious problem of the number of student nurses who are abandoning the profession simply because of the high cost of rentals in London? Is he aware in particular of the big problem at Barts, which many nurses are leaving because of the closure of the residential unit at Mile End? If he is interested in holding on to nurses, would it not be helpful to find a way in which the hospitals can assist with the provision of accommodation for student nurses at reasonable rents?
    Malcolm Wicks: We are certainly interested in retaining nurses and are sensitive to the issue of housing, not least in my city of London. Housing developments
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    are proceeding for key workers, who include nurses. Both housing policy and national health service policy are sensitive to that important issue.

    Disability Benefits (Home Visits)
    Mr. Win Griffiths: How many complaints were recorded against doctors carrying out home visits to assess people receiving disability benefits in (a) 1981, (b) 1991 and (c) 2001. [73062]
    The Minister for Work (Mr. Nicholas Brown): No data are held about complaints for the period before the contract for medical services was let in September 1998. However, in 2001 there were 1,665 complaints out of a total of 236,028 home visits carried out by medical services doctors.
    Mr. Win Griffiths: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Will he consider how complaints against doctors who visit people on disability benefits are dealt with, given that at the moment it is the doctor's word against the word of the person who has been interviewed? When, as often happens, the two stories do not coincide, the doctor's word is taken against that of the person on benefit. How many of those complaints were found to be justified?
    Mr. Brown: I am afraid that I do not have an immediate figure for how many complaints were justified. It will not always be the case that the complainant is right and the doctor is wrong, or the other way around. The fact is that two people may see such exchanges from different points of view. If my hon. Friend has a specific case in mind that he wants to draw to my attention, I shall be happy to consider it. However, people approach those vexed questions on the basis of different circumstances and have different views accordingly.
    Bob Spink: Does the Minister not think that it would be appropriate for doctors to examine people physically rather than simply discussing how far they can walk and how much weight they can lift? That would ensure that there was objective information on which a decision to remove benefit could be based before such terrible decisions were imposed on vulnerable people who have no defence against a doctor's word.
    Mr. Brown: The doctor's assessment informs the decision maker. It is a medical gateway, but doctors do not make the decisions themselves. I have no reason to believe that there is a case for making the changes that the hon. Gentleman suggests.
    Mr. Bill Tynan: Does my right hon. Friend accept that many of our constituents unfairly have their disability benefit removed? Do

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    doctors follow a quota that is recommended by the Government? If not, does my right hon. Friend agree that we should examine the system as it is at present?
    Mr. Brown: If people believe that the system has treated them unfairly, there is an appeals mechanism that they can use. Indeed, many cases succeed on appeal.
    Mr. Henry Bellingham: Does the Minister know that constituents of mine who receive incapacity benefit had to go all the way from King's Lynn to Norwich to undergo a fitness-for-work test? Would it not be easier if the test took place in King's Lynn? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the journey time from King's Lynn to Norwich by public transport is longer than the recommended 90 minutes? Will he please examine that matter?
    Mr. Brown: I shall examine the hon. Gentleman's specific point. However, many assessments are carried out through home visits; not everybody has to travel.

    Winter Fuel Payments
    Mr. John Robertson: What plans he has to increase winter fuel payments to over-60s. [73064]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Eagle): We have increased the level of winter fuel payments considerably since we introduced them in 1997. Most people aged 60 or over receive a payment of up to £200, which is a significant contribution towards their winter fuel bill. That means that almost 1 million pensioners in Scotland—more than 13,000 in my hon. Friend's constituency—will continue to benefit. We are committed to helping pensioners and we have given an undertaking that that level of payment will continue for the rest of the Parliament.
    John Robertson: I wholeheartedly welcome the winter fuel allowance and the increases in it. However, does my hon. Friend realise that although the death rate has decreased, more people die of cold in Britain than in the rest of Europe? That costs the national health service more than £1 billion a year. Does my hon. Friend agree that a winter fuel allowance increase of £50 to £250 would help to reduce fuel poverty in this country and help to alleviate the costs on the NHS? If so, when will the 13,000 households in Anniesland receive it?
    Maria Eagle: My hon. Friend is well known for his assiduity in pursuing the interests of his pensioner constituents. However, he seems to believe that I have a little more power than I do.
    The winter fuel payment is not the Government's only policy to tackle fuel poverty. Of course, it is an important policy that helps pensioners in my hon. Friend's constituency and elsewhere, but we have other policies. For example, the old home energy efficiency scheme, which is now known as warm front, gives grants of up to £2,500 for over-60s to improve the heating and insulation of their properties.
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    Between 1997 and 2002, gas prices have decreased by almost 12 per cent. in real terms and electricity prices by more than 21 per cent. So there are other factors that mean that people should find it easier to pay their winter fuel bills.
    Sir Sydney Chapman: Will the Minister give us the figures for the decrease in older people's deaths in the winter months? The hon. Member for Glasgow, Anniesland (John Robertson) described such deaths as a British phenomenon. Will the hon. Lady further emphasise that it is not only the winter fuel payment but tackling the substandard housing and lack of insulation in many older people's households that makes a difference?
    Maria Eagle: I cannot provide the exact figures governing the decrease in deaths because I do not have them with me. Of course, they vary from year to year. The 2000 spending review provided an extra £2.5 billion to renovate social housing. That will do much to improve insulation and heating. I have already referred to warm front, the home energy efficiency scheme, which the Government have greatly extended.
    I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman supported the policy because I was not a Member of Parliament at the time, but the Conservative Government introduced VAT on fuel, which we cut from 8 per cent. to 5 per cent. We have therefore taken several measures to ensure that people who have difficulty paying their fuel bills can do so. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman wants to join us in that aim. I hope that he will dissent from any Conservative party policies that are not excellent on cutting winter fuel prices.

    New Deal
    James Purnell: What plans he has to increase the flexibility of delivery of the new deal for clients and providers. [73066]
    The Minister for Work (Mr. Nicholas Brown): The new deals have already proved a success, helping nearly three quarters of a million people move into work. We are now building on that success. We have already introduced a range of further initiatives, including the tailored pathway pilots and the adviser discretion fund. Both of those give personal advisers, working with providers, more flexibility to tailor services to address the particular needs of individuals and the local labour market.
    James Purnell: I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. His Department's response to the Select Committee's report on the new deal says that it will consider more moves towards making this area more flexible. Will he look particularly at streamlining the new deal so that there is one overall scheme, which would provide more flexibility for advisers to give an individual package of help to claimants, designed around their needs rather than around the needs of large categories of claimants?
    Mr. Brown: We are looking at what greater flexibility can be given to advisers in particular circumstances. Initiatives to increase flexibility in the new deal include

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    the adviser discretion fund, which gives the personal advisers flexibility in the way they help people to overcome barriers to work. The tailored pathway pilots give advisers flexibility to combine new deal options to suit the needs of individual clients. There are also the ambition programmes, and employers have been given more flexibility in the way in which training is provided on the employment option. We have introduced short work-focused courses in the education and training option to meet the needs of local employers more flexibly, and, later this year, we will introduce more payment flexibility for small employers on the employment option.
    Mr. Archy Kirkwood: Would the Minister be prepared to look at the current spending profile of the new deal for disabled people? Many of the job brokers involved are small specialist concerns—some are charities and agencies—that find it difficult to survive given that they are sometimes getting less than 10 per cent. of their fee up front. Sometimes it takes many months to get the rest of their fee for the scheme. The scheme is very welcome in concept, but some important aspects need to be considered carefully if we are to make it a realistic prospect for some of the agencies and job brokers who are anxious to help.
    Mr. Brown: I agree with the thrust of the hon. Gentleman's point. There is clearly an issue in relation to the way in which providers are paid, and strong representations have been made to us about the balance between outcome payments and payments made earlier in the programme. The matter is being given careful consideration in the Department now, and I hope that we shall have something further to say shortly.
    Angela Eagle: Does my right hon. Friend recognise that the effectiveness of the new deal depends partly on the professionalism of the staff delivering it? In that regard, will he send his congratulations to Mr. Kevin Adderley and all the staff at the Wallasey Jobcentre Plus, whose latest results have just shown that, since it was set up as a pathfinder office, it has found work for 2,700 people, including 700 from the hardest to help groups? That makes it the top-performing pathfinder office in the country.
    Mr. Brown: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for standing up for the hard-working staff in Jobcentre Plus. I have been impressed by the levels of commitment and standards of service of our staff in Jobcentre Plus, and by their sheer enthusiasm for the ideas that underpin the Government's approach. I know that, when other Members have visited their Jobcentre Plus, they have received a similar impression. I am happy to extend my congratulations to my hon. Friend's constituents.
    Mr. John Bercow: Given that the recent report of the Labour-dominated Public Accounts Committee found that 30 per cent. of leavers from the new deal for young people went to unknown destinations, will the right hon. Gentleman accept the report's recommendation that his Department and
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    Jobcentre Plus conduct further research into why people leave the scheme, in order better to identify those participants who need additional help and support?
    Mr. Brown: I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new responsibilities. I also welcome the constructive line of questioning that he is adopting. The Public Accounts Committee reports are, of course, delivered in a bipartisan setting. Indeed, it is one of the strengths of that Committee that it can arrive at its conclusions unanimously and strive to get recommendations to the Government that transcend traditional party lines. We will of course look at the PAC's recommendations, but I must say that I thought the report constituted an endorsement of what we were doing rather than the full-blooded criticism for which the hon. Gentleman may have been looking.
    David Cairns: My right hon. Friend will know. because I have discussed the issue with him, that in my constituency, although long-term unemployment is four times lower than it was in the 1980s, we still have a residual problem because of the large number of workers on short-term and fixed-term contracts. Would not a bolder and more radical solution be to make the expertise gained by new deal advisers accessible to people who are in work but who, owing to the nature of their contracts, know that in four to six weeks they will be out of a job for an unspecified period before obtaining another short-term contract? Can we help that group of workers to escape from the perpetual cycle of short-term and fixed-term contracts and into full-time work by applying such expertise?
    Mr. Brown: That is a good point, which we have discussed before. The labour market in my hon. Friend's constituency is slightly anomalous because of the impact and prevalence of the short-term contracts to which he has referred. I am not sure how much the Employment Service and Jobcentre Plus can do to deal with the core problem—the short-term nature of the contracts themselves—but I shall be happy to meet my hon. Friend and see what more can be done.
    Andrew Selous: In relation to the hardest to help, can the Minister undertake to look carefully at the conclusions of the Select Committee report regarding the involvement of the voluntary and not-for-profit sectors in finding jobs for people who are dependent on alcohol or drugs?
    Mr. Brown: As the hon. Gentleman will know, we have programmes targeted at those recovering from drug addiction, and also at ex-offenders. Of course the voluntary sector has an important part to play in that work, as it already plays an important part in the provision of, for example, intermediate labour market schemes, which can provide a pathway to permanent employment. I take the recommendations very seriously indeed.

    Disabled People (New Deal)
    Dr. Brian Iddon: What assessment he has made of the impact of the new deal for disabled people. [73068]
    The Minister for Work (Mr. Nicholas Brown): The new deal for disabled people is the first national employment programme specifically designed to help people with disabilities move into and keep jobs. Since the national extension of the programme began, it has helped over 4,000 people into jobs and more than 20,000 have registered with job brokers to actively pursue employment. We are working closely with job brokers, and are keen to make improvements to the new deal for disabled people as we proceed. As the NDDP progresses, a comprehensive programme of evaluation will measure the impact, and a report of that evaluation will be published.
    Dr. Iddon: The new deal for disabled people started in Bolton as a pilot scheme in 1998, and has now been rolled out to include Bury and Salford. I am pleased to say that last month was the most successful ever, with 45 people entering employment. Is my right hon. Friend aware, however, that many people with disabilities, especially those on incapacity benefit, are not engaging with the NDDP because they fear losing their benefits? Will he make it clear to those people that they can work therapeutically, without loss of benefits, and that in-work benefits are also available to people with disabilities?
    Mr. Brown: The combination of tax credits and the new earnings rules amounts to an attractive package. I do not think that the situation is well enough understood—we need to do more to explain the current circumstances—and I agree that people fear loss of benefits. They also fear that if they take on a job, perhaps part time, it may be difficult for them to return to benefits. In particular, people worry about housing benefit and council tax rebates, and if they have children, they worry about losing free school dinners.
    These are important issues. We want those who have tried work and been unable to sustain it to be able to return to benefits, and not to be disadvantaged by having tried work; but of course we still have some way to go to ensure that we can actually deliver that.

    Universal Bank
    Mr. David Heath: If he will make a statement on progress towards payment of pensions and benefits through the universal bank and post office card accounts. [73069]
    The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr. Andrew Smith): The Post Office assures us that it is on schedule for the start of universal banking services in April next year, including the post office card account. I can also tell the hon. Gentleman that the banks have now signed detailed contracts with the Post Office to make their basic accounts available at Post Office branches.
    Mr. Heath: The right hon. Gentleman will know that the universal banking proposals have been widely welcomed, but there is still much doubt and concern about whether the post office card account will be up and running in time. Why have his and other Departments done nothing to persuade or even advise people of the existence of the post office card account?
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    Why do the application forms for the new child tax credit ask for people's bank account details, and explain to them how to get a bank account, but do not tell them that they can still receive their benefit in cash at post offices through the post office card account?
    Mr. Smith: We have consulted widely on all the materials and on all the letters that we are sending on this matter. I would rebut any suggestion—some have been made—that we are trying to put barriers in the way of people accessing post office card accounts. We certainly are not. In our communications strategy, we are writing to different categories of benefit and pension recipients. The Veterans Agency started writing to its clients earlier this month, and our Department will write to pensioners and to recipients of child benefit, income support, jobseeker's allowance and disability benefit over a two-year period, because the introduction will be phased. The first invitation letters asking for account details will be sent to child benefit recipients from next week. We shall also mount a major advertising campaign at the beginning of the new year to ensure that people are fully informed of their rights in this matter.
    Mr. Ivan Henderson: Many pensioners welcome the fact that they will still be able to get their pensions in cash at post office counters. However, I am concerned that the high-tech nature of the new system that will come into operation next April will pose extreme difficulties for some pensioners. It will be stressful for some pensioners to collect their pension. I have seen the demonstration in the post office in Central Lobby, which involves small machines with PIN pads for pensioners to use to get their cash. Will the Minister consider providing a more user-friendly system for pensioners? Will he consult pensioner organisations before the new system comes about next April?
    Mr. Smith: There have been extensive consultations with organisations representing pensioners and post office users more generally, and they are continuing. I would not describe the new system as a high-tech solution to the challenge. Yes, people will have to remember a PIN number, but they will be able to change the number to one that is easier for them to remember. We appreciate that some people will not be able to use a PIN number, and alternative arrangements will be put in place for them.
    Annabelle Ewing: Are the UK Government prepared to make grants available to sub-postmasters to ensure that people with disabilities have ready access to post office card accounts, and that the equipment is user friendly for our pensioners?
    Mr. Smith: We have already committed huge sums of money to the changeover—£500 million has gone into the Horizon provision in post offices, the DTI will shortly announce further resources to assist rural post offices, and £270 million of investment is committed to carrying into effect the recommendations of the performance and innovation unit report to safeguard the future of the post office network. I can tell the hon. Lady and my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich

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    (Mr. Henderson) that, as this system is developed, if sensible improvements can be made in the light of experience, I should be pleased to consider them.
    Mr. Peter Pike: Does my right hon. Friend accept that, despite all his Department's efforts to make the system seem simple and user-friendly, many elderly people are worried about it? Is it not important that, as well as providing the literature from his Department, we ensure that the national media put the change forward positively, so that people get the message on how simple it is? The media sometimes carry an even greater impact than official notices from his Department.
    Mr. Smith: Tempting though it is to imagine that I could take responsibility for how such things are portrayed in the media, I cannot do so. We shall make efforts not only through letters to clients, but through advertising, leafleting and other ways of communicating the message that the system is straightforward and simple. However, I also stress that where people have difficulties, of course special arrangements have to be made for them.
    Mr. Julian Brazier: The Secretary of State sounds confident at a time when two fifths of households receiving disability benefits have no bank account, a third of those receiving jobseeker's allowance have no bank account and, as he confirmed in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) on 19 July, there are 250,000 more benefit recipients without bank accounts than at the time of the previous survey.
    Will the Secretary of State assure the House, first, that the proposal will not be driven through before the necessary systems are in place and the households have the appropriate accounts, and secondly, that no more post offices will close because of the loss of business caused by the introduction of the system?
    Mr. Smith: I would have hoped that the hon. Gentleman and his party accepted that, through the great investment that we are making in the Post Office, including its modernisation and getting in proper IT, and by extending financial services through basic bank accounts as well as post office card accounts to people who do not have them, we will be tackling financial exclusion and opening up new and positive opportunities for post offices the better to serve not simply their traditional client group, important though that is, but also to win new business. This is a process of modernisation, which is the only way forward to safeguard the post office network in the way everyone in the House wants.

    Disabled People (Permitted Work)
    Mr. Mark Lazarowicz: If he will extend the categories of those people with disabilities who may undertake supported permitted work. [73070]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Eagle): The new permitted work rules give everyone claiming benefit because of a health condition or disability the opportunity to try out work
    16
    without fear of losing their benefit. That is designed to be a stepping stone to full-time work—that is, work of more than 16 hours a week.
    We responded to concerns raised during the consultation on the change by widening the rules to maintain the position of people with special needs who are supported in work by professional health or care workers. We will evaluate the permitted work rules over the next 18 months to see whether further improvements are required.
    Mr. Lazarowicz: I thank my hon. Friend for her answer and her indication that she will evaluate the way the rules work. In that evaluation, will she consider the cases of claimants who, under the old rules, could have undertaken paid therapeutic work while receiving incapacity benefit, but are unable to do so under the new rules, because they do not fall within the new definition of supported permitted work? That is because the work that they do does not easily fall into the categories of support that are normally given by local authorities. The same applies to voluntary organisations. She is aware of a case in my constituency, on which I have corresponded with her and her colleagues. Will she re-examine it, and also consider in the evaluation the detail of the wider issues raised by my constituent's case?
    Maria Eagle: I am aware of the case to which my hon. Friend refers, and I have a great deal of sympathy for his constituent and the position in which she finds herself. I hope that he will come to see me about the case, so that I can see what we can do to help his constituent. I am also happy to tell him that I will consider the issue that he raises to see how widespread it is in the new scheme and what, if anything, ought to be done about it in the evaluation.

    Benefit Fraud
    Mr. Gareth Thomas: What his targets are for the reduction of benefit fraud. [73071]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Malcolm Wicks): We have announced firm targets for reducing fraud and error in income support and jobseeker's allowance for working-age customers. We are aiming for a 33 per cent. reduction by 2004 and a 50 per cent. reduction by 2006. We have also announced a new target aiming for a 25 per cent. reduction in fraud and error in housing benefit by 2006. Latest figures show that we have already achieved a 24 per cent. reduction in fraud and error in income support and jobseeker's allowance for all customers—more than double our target of 10 per cent. To spell that out, it means a saving of some £240 million.
    Mr. Thomas: Perhaps as part of the plan to meet that new target, and given that many instances of benefit fraud involve the fraudster using an identity other than their own, what further measures will my hon. Friend's officials be developing, perhaps in partnership with

    17
    organisations such as the Council of Mortgage Lenders or the UK fraud prevention service, to tackle the specific problem of identity fraud within the benefit system?
    Malcolm Wicks: Identity fraud is a very sophisticated form of fraud. A special unit in the Department for Work and Pensions looks at that particular area. We work with partners both within and outside Government on that issue. It calls for a very sophisticated response from Government. I think that we have that response.
    Mr. John Redwood: Is the Minister aware that one of the main reasons for so many errors and so much fraud is the incredible complexity of the system? Would it not be helpful if the Minister tried to simplify it so that my constituents who really needed the support knew they could get it and knew how to get it, but those who were trying to work the system found it more difficult because it was much more transparent? Would he not then be able to set a proper target of getting rid of fraud almost completely, instead of living with the unacceptable, high levels that he is forecasting well into the future?
    Malcolm Wicks: What we are also forecasting is a determination to reduce fraud. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman welcomes the fact that this Government—I cannot speak for other Governments—are succeeding in reducing fraud. All of us want more simplicity. There is a balance to he struck: how to simplify the system when meeting the specific needs of specific members of the community. These are difficult issues, but only last week my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced pilots/pathfinders on housing benefit, which will produce much greater simplicity in that complex area of social security policy.
    David Taylor: No one in the House would condone and all would condemn any form of benefit fraud, but where there are tighter targets how will changes be introduced with sense and sensitivity? Surveys have often shown that savings from the failure to take up benefits have been greater than the cost of the fraud associated with them. Is there not a risk of throwing the baby out with the bath water if the targets are too tight and the framework too inflexible?
    Malcolm Wicks: We have to be tough minded about rooting out fraud. To put this in context, the £240 million that we have saved by tackling fraud on two benefits, income support and jobseeker's allowance, means that the Exchequer has more money available for police forces, for schools and for hospitals. They are the people's priorities. I often find in my constituency that the people who are most angry about fraud in their communities are hard-working families, often on low incomes, who want taxpayers' money to be spent properly.

    Child Support Agency
    Bob Russell: What procedures are undertaken by the Child Support Agency to check the
    18
    accuracy of declarations of income by absentee fathers who employ accountants or other financial advisers. [73072]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Malcolm Wicks): All declarations of income are checked to verify their accuracy before child maintenance is calculated, where possible. The procedure does not differ if a non-resident parent employs an accountant or financial adviser. An accountant or financial adviser may be one of the third parties with whom information is verified.
    Bob Russell: It does not take Sherlock Holmes to work out that if a rich father employs accountants or financial advisers to produce figures that indicate that he does not have the financial wherewithal to pay maintenance to his children, there is a possibility that some fiddles will be going on. Where financial advisers and accountants are employed to suggest that a father cannot afford to pay maintenance for his children, surely there should be another system to check whether something may be wrong?
    Malcolm Wicks: All of us in our constituencies have come across cases of that kind, which have raised our suspicions. I recognise the importance of the question, but since 1999 the Child Support Agency has had powers that align with those of the Inland Revenue. That means that an inspector may call at any premises where he or she believes relevant information is held. The CSA and Inland Revenue can share information such as self-assessment returns. We may interview other people, such as accountants. We are determined that where someone parents a child, either as a mother or father, they support that child financially. We have new powers to do that and we are determined to implement those powers.
    Mr. Bill O'Brien: Is my hon. Friend aware that only two thirds of the families who apply for maintenance through the Child Support Agency receive such benefit? Clearly, the point raised by the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) can be a factor in that. What is his Department doing to ensure that the Child Support Agency meets its commitments? The aim is to keep children out of poverty, but clearly, with a third of families not receiving maintenance, more children are forced into poverty.
    Malcolm Wicks: Family insecurity is now as important as economic insecurity as a force for poverty and disadvantage. We have new policies on child support, which we aim to implement as soon as possible. We are driving up the rate of payment—in terms of the cash that is now due, some 70 per cent. or more of maintenance is now paid. There remain some non-resident parents or absent fathers, however—perhaps 30 per cent.—who are not paying maintenance. The purpose of our new reforms is to spend less time on complicated assessment, in a move towards simplicity, and more time on enforcement. It is crucial that we undertake that as soon as possible.
    Mr. Gary Streeter: Is not the reality that, although the CSA is relatively good at

    19
    recovering maintenance from PAYE people, as soon as a father submits any other kind of accounts or any other information that is in any way out of the ordinary, the CSA takes one look at it, gives up and goes home? If it cannot enforce payment in unusual circumstances, will the Minister consider subcontracting such work to professionals who might take a more determined, robust and forensic approach? At the moment, many women are being failed by the bureaucratic, inexperienced and toothless way in which the CSA operates.
    Malcolm Wicks: I do not think that that is an appropriate comment on our hard-working officials who do a very difficult job in sometimes very difficult circumstances in the Child Support Agency. If I may say so, it was not a nice comment. Under the new reforms, which we hope to implement as soon as possible, we will put much more emphasis on enforcement, as I indicated. It is right and proper that everyone who fathers a child should maintain that child financially, regardless of their social position and of what sophisticated employees, including accountants, are working for them.

    Benefit Take-up
    Mr. David Stewart: What assessment she has made of the role of the new pension centres in increasing benefit take-up. [73073]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Eagle): We are leading a fundamental overhaul of the welfare system, transforming it from a mainly passive organisation paying out benefits to an active system that fights poverty. The pension service will encourage people to claim the benefits to which they are entitled, create opportunity and help people to be self-sufficient and independent. To assist in that process, we have established three pension centres in Scotland, located in Motherwell, Dundee and Glasgow. As a result, approximately 800 new jobs are being created in Scotland.
    Mr. David Stewart: I thank my hon. Friend for her answer. I recently visited Burnley pension centre, and was very impressed by the quality of the staff and the effectiveness of the service. Surely, however, the acid test is how effective the centres will be in maximising take-up by pensioners, particularly of the minimum income guarantee.
    Maria Eagle: Unlike the previous Government, we are committed to ensuring that those who are entitled to benefit and pensions receive them in full rather than putting them off. Three quarters of retirement pension claims are already made on the telephone, and the fact that our services will be much more accessible will help enormously. In addition, our people are better trained, our systems will enable us to have trigger questions to identify possible entitlement, and we will be out there searching to ensure that people who contact us receive their full entitlement. It will be easier to contact us, and we will therefore make sure that more people receive their proper entitlement.
    Mr. Paul Goodman: Since phone calls from the south-east will often be answered in Scotland, as the Under-Secretary said, what assurance can she give my ethnic minority constituents—those born in Pakistan or Kashmir or their descendants—that their calls will be understood?
    Maria Eagle: Generally, it is perfectly possible for members of the public to understand our Scottish staff. The hon. Gentleman has a particular concern about ethnic minority constituents, but a translation service is offered and his constituents will be able to access our services in the language in which they are happiest. He should not have any concerns that his constituents will be unable to contact the service or to get advice in the language in which they are happiest. Our Scottish staff are perfectly capable of communicating with anybody in this country.
    Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
    Mr. Speaker: Perhaps I can now communicate; I call the Foreign Secretary.

    Bali
    3.31 pm
    The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Jack Straw): With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a statement about the terrorist attack in Bali on Saturday 12 October.
    In his statement to the House on Tuesday last, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister set out the circumstances as we knew them about the attack and its consequences. The most up-to-date information is this. In total, more than 180 people of many nationalities are thought to have died in the attack. Of these, at least half were Australian. Many Indonesians died. Of the British citizens caught up in the blast, 11 are now confirmed as dead, and a further 22 are missing; sadly, presumed to be dead. At least 27 British citizens were injured, a number of whom have been medevaced to Australia, Singapore and Hong Kong. There may be other British injured among the unidentified in intensive care in Australia.
    The House joined the Prime Minister last week in sending its deepest sympathies to the relatives of the victims. It is every parent's worst nightmare to hear that their sons and daughters have been swept up in a tragedy. But when bereavement is compounded by having to travel halfway across the world to identify loved ones, the experience must be truly unimaginable.
    Yesterday we joined with the people of Australia, who held a day of national mourning for this, the worst terrorist outrage in that country's history. Flags were flown at half-mast at Buckingham palace and at our embassies and high commissions around the world. The Australian high commission is arranging a memorial service in St Paul's cathedral here in the city of London on 25 October. Tomorrow, the Indonesian embassy will be holding a multi-faith commemorative ceremony in London, which I shall be attending. The British Government will organise a British memorial service. We shall be consulting the families about what they think would be most appropriate.
    Let me now update the House on the action that we have taken to assist those injured and the relatives and close friends of all who were victims in this atrocity. The British honorary consulate in Bali provided the initial assistance to survivors of the attacks and to victims' relatives. This was reinforced early on Sunday 13 October by the British consul and then by the ambassador, Richard Gozney, other staff and volunteers from the British community in Bali. These staff and volunteers have worked tirelessly and I pay my tribute to them.
    However, on Thursday last, I learned of complaints by some families that they had not received the service that we should have provided. I asked the Foreign Office Minister, my noble Friend Baroness Amos, who was already travelling to Bali, to talk to all the families concerned and to make her own assessment about the complaints. In the light of this, my noble Friend apologised directly to the families concerned. I reinforced that apology on Friday last and, Mr. Speaker, I would like to repeat it in the House. I am very sorry that shortcomings in getting sufficient extra staff on the ground in Bali early enough last week exacerbated the terrible burden that the families were under in any event.
    22
    As of today, there are 15 British officials in Bali, and 30 British police officers, including experienced family liaison officers and anti-terrorist experts working with the Indonesian and Australian police on the investigation into the attack itself. In London, the emergency consular unit was established overnight on Saturday 12 October and, working with New Scotland Yard, has continued in operation.
    Last Wednesday, I announced a package of measures designed to help relatives to travel to where their loved ones were being treated, or to where victims had died. The scheme—similar to that put in place after 11 September last year—covers the repatriation of the remains of those who died, and the medical evacuation of the injured. The FCO will pay the costs concerned wherever an insurance policy does not already cover them. I decided on these exceptional measures because of the exceptional nature of terrorism, in which individuals are random victims of attacks directed at society as a whole. As for the future, we shall work urgently with the insurance industry and others to see how between us we can ensure that the pain of victims of terrorism is not made worse by financial hardship.
    Immediately after the Bali attack, we advised against all travel to Bali and all non-essential travel elsewhere in Indonesia. On 17 October I announced a further strengthening of our travel advice, warning against any travel to Indonesia as a whole. I also advised UK citizens in Indonesia to consider leaving if their presence was not essential, and authorised the withdrawal of some dependants and non-essential staff from our embassy in Jakarta. On 18 October, we amended our travel advice to other countries in south-east Asia, urging UK nationals to exercise extreme caution. Unfortunately, further attacks cannot be ruled out. In the light of additional intelligence assessed this morning, I am strengthening the travel advice still further by giving additional warnings about threats to UK nationals at specific locations in Indonesia. That travel advice is being issued now and is available on the Foreign Office's website.
    I am placing in the Library of the House the travel advice issued by the FCO and the British embassy in Jakarta in respect of Indonesia before 12 October, and the equivalent advice issued by the United States and Australian Governments. Many of the relevant judgments in travel advice of this kind are based on intelligence. In the light of the atrocity on 12 October, the families and others have asked whether there was any intelligence that could have led us to issue specific warnings against travel to, or staying in, Bali. If I had lost a member of my family, I would be asking such questions. Indeed as Foreign Secretary, it is my responsibility to ask such questions.
    Like everyone else, I dearly wish that there had been intelligence, which could have prevented this atrocity and its appalling consequences. But the answer, sadly, is that there was none. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House last Tuesday,
    "We had no specific intelligence relating to the attack in Bali."—[Official Report, 15 October 2002; Vol. 390, c. 177.]
    As is now well known, it is the case that there was received in late September a generic threat to a number of cities and provinces in Indonesia, including Bali but covering 55 per cent. of the land mass of Indonesia and

    23
    100 million of its population. As my Australian counterpart Alexander Downer told the Australian Parliament on 17 October, these threats
    "were non-specific and broad based across Indonesia".
    There has also been a question raised about the travel advisory issued by the United States Department of State on 10 October. Let me explain to the House what this was. That advisory was a "world-wide caution" of a kind first issued by the US after 11 September last year. It alerted US citizens to the need to remain vigilant in the face of terrorist threats. It was revised on 10 October following an audio tape broadcast attributed to Osama Bin Laden. Issued only two days before the attack in Bali, it contained no reference to Bali, Indonesia or even south-east Asia. We also received a classified warning from the United States on the same day. It too had no reference to Bali, Indonesia or south-east Asia. As our travel advice to Indonesia, last updated on 27 August 2002, already contained a clear warning to travellers to Indonesia about terrorist threats, we judged that there was no case for amending it further in the light of the United States' travel advisory.
    The United States, Australia and the United Kingdom all received similar intelligence in respect of Indonesia, but making their own independent judgments, all came to similar conclusions about travel to Indonesia. None of us had concluded that it was unsafe to travel to or remain in Bali. Both as Home Secretary and now as Foreign Secretary I have worked closely over the last five and a half years with all three of our intelligence services. Their standard of professionalism and competence is second to none. Each year they pick up literally thousands of pieces of intelligence. These vary between material provided by human sources, material provided by secret technical means, material openly available to the public, and sometimes just gossip.
    Terrorist groups operate in secret. They are often skilled in counter-intelligence techniques, and may be feeding false intelligence to compromise an intelligence source or to direct law enforcement resources to the wrong place, so the raw intelligence has to be skilfully and carefully assessed before judgments can be made upon it. I believe, on the basis of what I have seen, that correct judgments were made about the available streams of intelligence before 12 October. There were generic threats, but there was no information that could have enabled us to warn in advance of this atrocity.
    I do not want the relatives of those who died in this atrocity, nor those injured, to have nagging anxieties about whether different judgments should have been made. The Intelligence and Security Committee was established by Act of this Parliament to scrutinise the work of our intelligence agencies. Through the Prime Minister, it reports regularly to Parliament. It is made up of senior and respected Members of both Houses. It happens that the Intelligence and Security Committee is at present in Australia on a long-planned trip, and this morning I spoke to the Chairman of the Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Ann Taylor),who had just arrived in Canberra. I told her that I had asked the intelligence co-ordinator in the Cabinet Office to ensure that all intelligence was made available to her Committee. The ISC will of course consider that and then reach its own conclusions on it.
    24
    The atrocity in Bali was a brutal reminder that the campaign against terrorism did not end with the removal of the Taliban. The reality is that our campaign will take years, perhaps even decades. In Indonesia, our immediate aim is to help the Indonesian Government act quickly to deal with the terrorist threat. We are already discussing how we can help through an intensified programme of counter-terrorist assistance. My noble Friend Baroness Amos and the British ambassador met President Megawati this morning in Jakarta. My noble Friend was assured by the President that the Indonesian Government were determined to take swift and decisive action against those responsible for the attacks. President Megawati has already signed an emergency decree strengthening police powers to detain suspects and to enable the courts to make use of intelligence. The Indonesian authorities have also taken action against known extremist groups. On 19 October they arrested the founder of Jemaah Islamiyah, Abubakar Bashir.
    The terrorists' aim is to defeat the universal values of the United Nations, of tolerance, freedom and respect for human life, and replace them with brutality, fear and ethnic and religious hatred. I believe that the Australian Prime Minister, John Howard, captured the international mood when he called on the world to pursue the campaign against terrorism with "unrelenting vigour". Today our grief at what happened is enormous, but our determination is unwavering.
    Mr. Michael Ancram: The Foreign Secretary, even if initially reluctant, was, I am sure, right to come to the House today to make a statement, and I am grateful to him for allowing me advance sight of it. He has reported on the latest situation, and I join him in his words of condolence to the suffering in Australia and Indonesia, and also here at home. They must be foremost in all our thoughts at this time.
    I welcome the help that the right hon. Gentleman and his office are providing to the relatives of those who have been killed or injured. I also join him in paying tribute to those who are providing that help on the ground. I believe, too, that the noble Lady Baroness Amos was right to go to Bali and to recognise the concerns on the ground, and to make the apology that has been repeated by the Foreign Secretary in the House today.
    We all realise that dealing with such tragedies is never easy, but at the same time lessons must be learned. I ask the Foreign Secretary whether he will look again at the way that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office responds to such incidents. Is there not now a case for maintaining an ad hoc group within the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, on a reserve basis, for swift deployment to help handle the aftermath of such outrages?
    I believe that we are right—both in the wider public interest, and for the peace of mind of the injured and the bereaved—to ask direct questions today. As Australia's Prime Minister, John Howard, said yesterday:
    "That does not denote a lack of confidence in the agencies. But when something of this magnitude occurs we have an obligation to have it thoroughly examined."
    On that basis, I also welcome the Foreign Secretary's stating that he is asking the Intelligence and Security Committee to examine the evidence on what

    25
    information was available, and what action was taken on it. I ask him, however, to request that Committee, which normally reports annually, to report separately and urgently on its findings. If it is to be a vehicle for looking into this important matter, not only should there be a separate report, but that report should form the basis of a debate in this House.
    In the meantime. the Foreign Secretary's statement still leaves unacceptable uncertainty in the public mind. The questions that still need to be answered do not risk compromising intelligence sources but allow the Government to show the public either that they acted appropriately in the light of information available, or that there are lessons to be learned. So I shall put a number of those questions to the Foreign Secretary today, because it is important that he address them.
    When, within the last 12 months, was information first received from the United States or other intelligence resources about potential terrorist activity in Indonesia? Is it true that the public assurance, which survived 11 September last year, that
    "Bali and north Sulawesi province remain safe"
    was removed from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website earlier this year? If so, why was it removed, and what was the information that caused its removal? Why was Jemaah Islamiyah not proscribed after last December's thwarted attempt to blow up the high commission in Singapore, when it appeared that the Government of Singapore were convinced that it was the alleged potential perpetrator?
    Why, following warnings from the United States, did we update our travel advice in relation to Indonesia in August, but not after further warnings in September, when the Americans saw fit further to update their travel advice? Why were no warnings passed on to United Kingdom tourists and residents after the United States Embassy in Jakarta advised its citizens in Indonesia on 9 September that the country was at risk of a "credible" terrorist attack? When did the Government first receive the United States intelligence warnings that referred to six Indonesian "hotspots", including Bali—that differs somewhat from what the Foreign Secretary has told us today—and which were mentioned by the Downing street spokesman in the briefing given last Thursday? How on earth can this information, on six out of 6,000 inhabited islands, be regarded as generic, rather than specific? Why did the Foreign Secretary, unlike Downing street, appear not to know about this information when he answered press questions last Thursday? Yet on Friday, on BBC radio, he admitted it on the basis of
    "one of the pieces of intelligence I have now seen."
    Had he really not been shown this vital intelligence before then?
    What is the right hon. Gentleman's response to the report attributed to United States intelligence officers in yesterday's edition of The Sunday Telegraph that
    "a CIA briefing that Bali was a target was passed to the Government two days before the bomb blasts but not made public";
    26
    or that
    "Britain was briefed that Islamic terrorists could be planning to attack nightclubs in Bali two days before the blasts"?
    Will he clearly indicate whether there is any truth in those statements? It is vital that those points are cleared up.
    Finally, why on earth, if Britain had the same information available to it as the Americans, did we not issue the same warnings to our citizens at the same time? Why did we not mention clubs and places of entertainment until after 12 October, when the Americans had seen fit to mention them before? Furthermore, as regards Indonesia, which is a very large country, where are the greatest preponderances of such venues and is not that, too, something that should have been taken into account?
    Those are the unanswered questions that have created the doubts. To dispel the fog of uncertainty created by the ambiguous and contradictory Government briefings of last week, the Foreign Secretary must answer them now.
    Mr. Straw: The right hon. Gentleman asks me a number of questions.
    First, we always learn lessons in the light of events such as this, and plans are already afoot to ensure that better standing arrangements of the type that the right hon. Gentleman described are established in the Foreign Office and in relation to groups of British posts across the world. I intend to bring those forward. Not all the 15 staff currently in Bali come from Jakarta; a number of them come from other posts in south-east Asia.
    The right hon. Gentleman asked whether the Intelligence and Security Committee would report separately and urgently in respect of this matter. As he understands, that is fully a matter for the Committee, but I am sure that the Chairman will be made aware of the right hon. Gentleman's request. In any event, as I and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary know well, the reports of the Committee are always the subject of at least one full day's debate a year in the House, when thorough scrutiny takes place.
    Some of the right hon. Gentleman's questions on intelligence can be properly discussed only within the ISC, although I shall try to answer some of them. However, the right hon. Gentleman will realise, not least given the fact that he had four years of experience in handling intelligence when he was a Northern Ireland Minister, that it is extremely easy when dealing with such matters to raise possibilities that it is then difficult for those in possession of the intelligence to deal with in a way that provides complete reassurance. That is in the nature of intelligence. Would that one could lay out all the intelligence that we had received because that would provide reassurance, but the right hon. Gentleman knows from his own experience that it is not appropriate, responsible or sensible to do that.
    The right hon. Gentleman asked various questions about the position of the United States. There were differences in the detailed advice offered by the United States, the Australian Government and ourselves. Those can be seen clearly from comparing the different travel advisories that I have placed in the Library and to which the right hon. Gentleman already has access.

    27
    The key advice in all the advisories issued by the three Governments was the same; in none of them was travel to, or stay within, Bali advised against.
    The right hon. Gentleman talked about the position of the United States. Its position was the same as ours. Sadly, three United States citizens were among the casualties in Bali. However, the United States was sufficiently relaxed about travel to Bali that I am told authoritatively that at least six of its own staff from Jakarta were on holiday in Bali at the time of the blast. The right hon. Gentleman should bear that information in mind before coming to the type of conclusions that he drew.
    The right hon. Gentleman asked me about the reference in the Downing street briefing last Thursday. We are talking about the same information. As far as I am aware, we first received that information on 27 September and it was then the subject of assessment by the Security Service.
    Was I aware of that information before I made my statement last Thursday? The answer is yes, but we had made a judgment that it would not be appropriate to give details about some of that intelligence. It happens that, for separate reasons, such information was given by my Australian counterpart, Alexander Downer, and that became clear between when I made my statement and when the Downing street press office answered questions at its briefings. What happened, as the right hon. Gentleman will see from the record, was that that was then referred to in the Downing street briefing, but we were talking about exactly the same statement.
    My view is that we should always err on the side of caution when sourcing intelligence. The crucial thing, about which there has never been the slightest uncertainty, is that the right hon. Gentleman describes this issue as referring to six islands out of 6,000, but it happens that those islands cover 55 per cent. of Indonesia's land mass, 40 per cent. of the total population—100 million people—and 60 per cent. of all western tourists go to those six islands. The judgment had to be made as to whether there was sufficient information in that intelligence to advise against any travel to any of those islands or to one of them—Bali. The judgment that was made here and in Australia and the United States was the same: there was not sufficient information in that intelligence to justify any significant change in the travel advice, and none therefore was made.
    Mr. Menzies Campbell: Does the Foreign Secretary agree that we must not allow our undiminished sense of horror or our natural anxiety about British citizens to stand in the way of a proper understanding of the consequence of those terrible events for the people of Bali, particularly in the long term?
    I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's reference of these matters to the Intelligence and Security Committee, but I am sure that he would agree that speed is of the essence and that, if there is any question of delay, will he consider again the suggestion, which I made earlier, that these matters should be remitted to a High Court judge or figure of similar calibre, with a
    28
    request to conduct a private investigation and to report to the Prime Minister, not for the purpose of seeking scapegoats or indulging in a witch hunt, but to see what lessons need to be learned for the future?
    In the matter of consular assistance, it is clear that, in spite of their valiant efforts, the United Kingdom consular staff were literally overwhelmed. Since the events in Bali may not be the last occurrence of that kind, will the right hon. Gentleman consider—to an extent, I echo the observations of the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram)—establishing in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office a unit ready to move at 24 hours' notice to give consular assistance where demands exceed the capacity of the staff already in place?
    Mr. Straw: I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his remarks. My view is that the appropriate mechanism for an examination of the facts is the Intelligence and Security Committee. After all, it was established by the House and senior Members of the House and the other place serve on it, and they are well used to looking at intelligence. I have asked the intelligence co-ordinator in the Cabinet Office to ensure that, obviously, all the relevant intelligence is made available to that Committee, and it can then come to its own conclusions on it.
    Is there a case for establishing a unit to ensure that there is a faster response where the evidence emerges over a period of hours, as it did in Bali, that the atrocity was on a very large scale? The answer is yes, and as I told the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), we are bringing forward our plans to do just that.
    Donald Anderson: We grieve with those who lost loved ones in this outrage, but is not hindsight a wonderful thing? It gives a remarkable 20:20 vision. Is not it significant that, on the basis of the same evidence, our Australian allies, with their neighbours, reached the same conclusions as my right hon. Friend, but can he say a little more about the response of the Indonesian Government? We know that they have taken measures to combat Jemaah Islamiyah and that they have now arrested Mr. Bashir, the alleged leader of that group, but is it not true that certainly more than a year ago the Indonesian Government were advised that there was a training ground for al-Qaeda on Sulawesi? They have had a great deal of information about the way in which terrorist groups operated freely in Indonesia. Therefore, in the light of that record, is my right hon. Friend fully convinced that they have now taken on board the gravity of what they have allowed to develop on their territory?
    Mr. Straw: On my right hon. Friend's first point, he is right about hindsight. What the intelligence agencies have to do on the basis of imperfect and inadequate information—namely the intelligence that terrorist organisations try to keep from the intelligence agencies—is to make the best judgments that they can. At the same time, we must not shut down the world, which is exactly what the terrorists want. Such judgments are very difficult, and we always err on the side of caution because human lives are at risk. However, if we were not to make proper judgments on the basis of assessments, the world would literally be closed down and the terrorists would then have won.

    29
    On my right hon. Friend's point about the Indonesian Government, they are now showing an increased determination to recognise the very severe threat that terrorism poses to them and to their society as well as to the wider world. We are therefore grateful to them for the collaboration and co-operation that they are showing to our law enforcement agencies, obviously to the Australians and to the agencies of other countries that had people killed or injured in this atrocity.
    Mr. Douglas Hogg: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that, at least at present, there is no obvious connection between the bombing in Bali and the Iraqi Government? Does he understand that there is a real concern among many right hon. and hon. Members to the effect that, if we are to take military action against Iraq even if supported by the authority of the United Nations and probably in any event, we will increase the support currently seen in the Islamic countries for terrorist activity? That really is a matter that we must take account of.
    Mr. Straw: I find that a curious assertion. It seems to me that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is saying that we should not do one thing that is right—namely deal with the threat posed by Iraq—while we are doing something else that is also right, namely fighting terrorism. I do not share his view.
    Ms Meg Munn: It is believed that my constituent Natalie Perkins died in the atrocity along with her cousin, Laura France, a constituent of my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Central (Mr. Caborn). Unfortunately, the families received contradictory information at different times from the Foreign Office regarding the availability of flights to the area. Can I seek my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary's assurance that there is now improved liaison with the families and a clear point of contact to ensure that they are given whatever accurate information is available at the time? May I also suggest that, in these situations, there should be one clear contact point for Members of Parliament, who are often contacted at such times, so that they too can have the up-to-date, accurate information to help and support families through a traumatic period?
    Mr. Straw: I would like to express my very sincere condolences to the families concerned. I will look immediately into what my hon. Friend has today told me and the House. I am very sorry that that was the service that these families received.
    As I have already said, there are a number of lessons to be learned, albeit that the staff were working in very difficult circumstances and under very great pressure. We intend to learn those lessons, and I shall ensure that the House is fully informed about them.
    Mr. William Cash: Will the Foreign Secretary note that family friends of mine are the father and mother of Peter Record, who was murdered in Bali? They are obviously suffering grievously in these circumstances.
    Will the right hon. Gentleman also note that, as far as I can see, he has not answered the important questions put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Devizes
    30
    (Mr. Ancram)? Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that those questions are properly answered in due course and, furthermore, that we have a further opportunity to consider the matter when the Intelligence and Security Committee has reported to the House?
    Mr. Straw: I express my condolences to the hon. Gentleman's close friends on their loss.
    The burden of the questions asked by the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) rests on the claim that evidence was available to warn against a specific threat in Bali on which we failed to act. There was none. It was also claimed that we did not issue warnings when the United States did, on which their citizens acted. That is also not the case. As I explained, the US judged Bali sufficiently safe that members of its embassy staff in Jakarta were on holiday there when the atrocity took place.
    Mr. Clive Soley: Although we do not know who was responsible for the barbaric act, will my right hon. Friend bear it in mind that about a year ago bin Laden said on al-Jazeera television that Australia was a crusader state because of its role in the United Nations in East Timor, and that Bali is predominantly a Hindu island? In those circumstances, is he satisfied that we will do everything possible, both here and overseas, to ensure that countries such as Indonesia, which has a large Muslim population, recognise the danger of religious war, and that all of us who are involved in religion and politics do everything possible to avoid such a war?
    Mr. Straw: Yes. One reason why Bali was judged relatively safe was because 95 per cent. of its population is Hindu, a fact to which my hon. Friend alluded.
    Mr. Nicholas Soames: I have no doubt that the House will share the Foreign Secretary's confidence that the ISC will do its job thoroughly and that the intelligence co-ordinator at the Cabinet Office will learn, as far as it is possible, whatever lessons there are to be learned from the terrible events of the past few days. Does the Foreign Secretary agree, however, that there is a fatal flaw? In the 1990s, the obsession with signals intelligence—SIGINT—over human intelligence left the west at a grave disadvantage, which needs to be made up. Even allowing for the real and welcome increases in expenditure on security services, which I wholly welcome, will the Foreign Secretary confirm that the necessary steps will be taken to ensure that there is a constant build-up of our ability to decipher human intelligence in those parts of the world where the risk is greatest, so that we do not rely only on SIGINT?
    Mr. Straw: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. Everyone lowered their guard after the collapse of the Berlin wall. It was generally assumed that because the possible conflict between east and west was over, no significant threats to our interests and those of the west remained. We have sadly learnt to our cost that that is not the case. The hon. Gentleman is right to stress the importance of human intelligence alongside electronic intelligence—the one complements the other—and I am glad that he highlighted the fact that there has been,

    31
    and will continue to be, a significant increase in resources to those parts of our intelligence apparatus that deal with human intelligence.
    Mr. Tam Dalyell: Can we hark back to the question asked by the former Foreign Office Minister, the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg)? The Foreign Secretary said that it was a curious question, but to some of us it is a self-evident question. Let me ask a direct question: in the view of the Foreign Office, is there any connection whatsoever between the monstrous events in Bali and Iraq? Can the Foreign Secretary imagine anything more likely to recruit terrorists from Algiers to the Philippines than raining down bombs on Baghdad from 15,000 ft?
    Mr. Straw: I have the same difficulty as my hon. Friend in remembering the name of what used to be Grantham. It is Sleaford and North Hykeham. On the main point of his question, I see no connection between the atrocity and the Iraqi regime.
    Mr. Andrew Mackay: May I again return to the genuine problem of warning fatigue? Obviously, I urge the Foreign Secretary to continue to warn of genuine terrorist threat, but I stress that if too many warnings are issued about too many countries, the public will not believe them. For example, in the recent India-Pakistan crisis, the Foreign Secretary urged British nationals to leave. In such circumstances, warnings will be ignored, at everybody's peril.
    Mr. Straw: The right hon. Gentleman spoke with greater wisdom to some extent than Conservative Front-Bench Members. He is right: we must achieve a balance. We always err on the side of caution—as I did at the end of May about travel to India and Pakistan—in the travel advisories that the United Kingdom and the United States issue together. However, the right hon. Gentleman was right about subsequent difficulty with the credibility of the warnings. We must be careful about the way in which we issue the warnings and the currency that we thus establish.
    We shall continue to issue warnings whenever we judge them appropriate and especially when we consider lives to be at risk. Let me repeat that we cannot simply act on unassessed, raw intelligence, some of which is presented to us precisely because it is inaccurate. The overall effect would be to shut down economic and social activity throughout the world, which is exactly what the terrorists want.
    Jane Griffiths: I am sure that those who lost loved ones in the Bali outrage will appreciate the support that the Department offered. However, will my right hon. Friend also consider those such as the group of five young people from my constituency who fortunately escaped injury but witnessed the carnage at close hand? Will he discuss the matter with his
    32
    colleagues and try to ensure that such people receive some support so that their lives are not blighted by terrorism?
    Mr. Straw: Yes is the answer to my hon. Friend's question. If she has any details, I am happy to follow up on the case that she described so that we can learn from her constituents' experience.
    Dr. Julian Lewis: Hindsight may be wonderful, as was said earlier, but foresight is much better. Was it not blindingly obvious, after 11 September and the Government's rightly strong reaction to those events, that British citizens around the world would be in danger of assault? If so, why were no preparations made to have a team on stand-by to react in support of British citizens around the world when they were attacked?
    Mr. Straw: The fact that there is a worldwide threat is not only obvious but made clear in all our travel advice. For example, travel advice, which was last updated before 12 October on 27 August, said about Indonesia:
    "After the terrorist attacks in the US, there is a heightened terrorist threat to US and UK interests worldwide."
    It goes on to give advice about a series of precautions.
    We have been strengthening our consular and support arrangements since 11 September last year. Many were put in place quickly. For example, in the United Kingdom, the emergency consular department was established and operating fully by the small hours of 13 October. We may be able to do more here. Notwithstanding the difficulties of a remote location, where there was simply one British honorary consul on 11 October, not a full diplomatic staff, we must have more flexible arrangements that can respond more quickly to the possibility of atrocities.
    Mr. George Howarth: We welcome the decision to refer all the evidence to the Intelligence and Security Committee. Will my right hon. Friend repeat or confirm that if all raw intelligence were taken at face value, the world would come to a standstill? As someone who also served in Northern Ireland, I can say that the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) should know that.
    Mr. Straw: What my hon. Friend says is entirely correct. Those of us who work, or have worked, with intelligence have particular responsibilities in this area.
    Angus Robertson (Moray): While echoing the Secretary of State's condolences in relation to the Bali attack, may I ask whether he is aware of the security report produced by the Government of Spain on the operations of al-Qaeda in Indonesia, which was reported in The Herald today and, in depth over the weekend, in El Pais? Although the Secretary of State made no mention of other European intelligence agencies, or, indeed, of the role of the European Union, I know that this matter is on the agenda of the Council of Ministers today and tomorrow. What specific enhancements does the Secretary of State favour, in terms of intelligence sharing, to help to avoid this kind of catastrophe in the future?
    Mr. Straw: I have seen the report. It is important, particularly when dealing with intelligence, not to treat

    33
    one individual report—particularly one in a newspaper—as though it were somehow gospel. There is a stream of intelligence coming through all the time. We have very professional and competent intelligence services, as do many other countries. However, notwithstanding the high level of intelligence assessment and capacity available in the United States, there was no warning or intelligence whatever before 11 September last year that could have led the United States to take action to avoid that most appalling atrocity. There are standing arrangements by which we share intelligence and assessments with other intelligence agencies around the world, and those will continue to be strengthened in every way possible.
    Mrs. Louise Ellman: Is the Secretary of State in a position to make any observations on the significance of the Bali atrocity to the importance of continuing to fight against international terrorism, in terms both of this country acting alone and of international action?
    Mr. Straw: My hon. Friend's question raises the importance of us continuing this fight. We must not let our guard fall, or be led into believing that the last atrocity is really the last. That cannot be the case. Within the al-Qaeda organisation, within the organisation likely to have been responsible for the Bali atrocity and within many other terrorist organisations, there are people who are determined to attack our way of life—not just the west's values, but universal human values enshrined in the United Nations charter—and randomly to make victims of our citizens in the course of their attacks on our society as a whole.
    Dr. Jenny Tonge: Are the Government planning to give any immediate assistance to the people of Bali, who have not only had to deal with many dead and injured among their own population, but will have almost totally lost their livelihoods as a result of this terrible event?
    Mr. Straw: We are giving immediate assistance, particularly in respect of the law enforcement inquiry—the anti-terrorist inquiry—in which we have a number of police officers on the ground working with the Indonesians and the Australians on the investigation. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development will look carefully at any requests that we receive from the Indonesians for further assistance.
    Mr. Stuart Bell: May I come back to the question raised by the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Mr. Campbell)? Building on the questions asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, East (Jane Griffiths) and the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Dr. Tonge), may I ask whether it is not a fact that Balinese people have lost their lives in this tragedy? I am thinking of the six taxi drivers who plied their trade outside the nightclub, never to be seen or heard of again, and of the tragic consequences for their families. Is it not an incontrovertible truth that the terrorists, and only the terrorists, are responsible for this
    34
    atrocity, and that, no matter how much we seek to shuffle responsibility or blame, it lies on the terrorists and only the terrorists?
    Mr. Straw: My hon. Friend is right to point out that indigenous Balinese people lost their lives; I mentioned that at the beginning of my statement. On his second point, were I someone who had been injured in this atrocity or the relative of someone who had been killed, I would be asking all these questions. It seems to me entirely reasonable that they should be asked. I think, however, that those of us who are or have been responsible for dealing with intelligence must also be responsible for ensuring that all the intelligence available is properly scrutinised—which it will be, in this case, by the ISC—and, in addition, provide reassurance about the nature of intelligence. Would that we had had intelligence that could have warned us of this atrocity, because we would then have issued a warning within seconds; but we did not, and responsibility for the atrocity is that of the terrorists and the terrorists alone.
    Mr. Jonathan Djanogly: To what extent are the Indonesian authorities co-operating with Australian and British police investigations?
    Mr. Straw: My understanding is that they are cooperating thoroughly. That was a point made by President Megawati when she saw my noble Friend Baroness Amos, Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, at her meeting earlier today.
    Mr. Win Griffiths: Does not this terrible, savage, barbaric terrorist tragedy show us once again just how difficult it is to get at the al-Qaeda network, or whoever else may have been involved in the bomb attack on Bali? If the only warnings we in the west had of the tragedy were generic, is it not even more difficult for the Indonesian Government? We tend to forget that they are only a three-year-old democracy, still emerging from the tragedy of Suharto's dictatorship and trying to establish democracy and human rights. If they had rounded up all who we have been told were involved in this particular tragedy, half the Indonesian population would have been in jail and human rights organisations everywhere would have been shouting about them.
    Mr. Straw: Yes, it is difficult to get at such networks. As with criminal organisations, the first priority of terrorist organisations is to ensure that what they are doing does not come to the attention of law enforcers. They do not telephone the intelligence services and announce when their next atrocity will take place. That is why penetrating those organisations and gaining intelligence that can be relied on is inherently difficult. I believe that our agencies do it better than any other agency in the world, and they are joined in that high standard by a number of others; but it is still intrinsically difficult.
    My hon. Friend speaks about Indonesia and its new democracy on the basis of considerable experience. We have a responsibility to help support the forces of democracy and of law enforcement in Indonesia, and we are seeking to do just that.
    Michael Fabricant: As the Foreign Secretary will know, there have been a number of bomb

    35
    outrages in Indonesia over the past year, including the bombing of the Jakarta stock exchange. Can he confirm reports that the bomb was not made from professional explosives such as C4, but from fertiliser and oil? If so, what comfort does he have that the bomb outrage was linked with al-Qaeda, and was not part of a continuing internal war of terror in Indonesia?
    Mr. Straw: I cannot confirm those reports publicly.
    Paul Flynn: Experience has taught us that the best way of reducing the number of acts of terrorism of this kind is to win over the hearts and minds of supporters and potential supporters of terrorism. Does my right hon. Friend agree that among Muslims in this country and throughout the world there is a wholly misplaced but deep sense of grievance against the west and against Christian countries? While that does not excuse these terrible acts in any way, how does my right hon. Friend expect a land invasion of Iraq, before there is a settlement of the Palestine question, to affect that sense of grievance and the likelihood of more terrorist acts?
    Mr. Straw: My hon. Friend will forgive me if I do not go all the way in the direction in which he entices me. I will say, however, that nothing justifies this kind of atrocity. Yes, there is a separate issue. On the three occasions on which the west has intervened with military action on any scale during the last 12 years, we have saved hundreds of thousands, in some cases millions, of people who happened to be Muslims. That is what we should be saying. We should remind people that the last time we had to take military action against Iraq was because it had gratuitously invaded the law-abiding sovereign state of Kuwait, which is Muslim.
    Several hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I shall first take the Standing Order No. 24 application.

    Fire Brigades Union
    4.25 pm
    Sir Patrick Cormack: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 24, to debate a specific and important matter that requires urgent consideration, namely,
    ."the proposed strike by members of the Fire Brigades Union."
    In this brief submission, I am well aware that I am not allowed to go into the details of the subject. All I would say is that if any subject meets the three criteria listed in Standing Order No. 24 it is this one. Our emergency services are on the brink of being disrupted, and it is not just the fire service that will suffer if the fire brigade strike goes ahead. There will be repercussions for the railways, the underground and for many other parts of our national life. The matter is specific because the strike is due to take place next week, and no one could suggest for a moment that this is not a matter of grave public importance.
    Mr. Speaker, you have at your discretion the opportunity to allow the House to debate this matter. Whatever one's views on the merits of the FBU's case, everyone in the House must feel that this subject should take precedence over other business before us, and that we should be able to debate it. Outside the House, people frequently say that we do not debate what is most relevant and pertinent in their lives: we are all accosted with that accusation. I submit that people who are likely to be affected by the strike will view with some incomprehension a House of Commons that does not debate it. I submit my application to you, Sir.
    Mr. Speaker: I have listened carefully to what the hon. Member has said, and I have to give my decision without stating any reasons. I am afraid that I do not consider that the matter that he has raised is appropriate for discussion under Standing Order No. 24. Therefore, I cannot submit the application to the House.

    Points of Order
    4.26 pm
    Mr. Tam Dalyell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Have you had a request from the Secretary of State for Defence to make a statement clarifying the press reports that have created great anxiety among a number of people whose lives may be affected and who have to make preparations for a call-up of reservists? Surely there should be a statement in good time because, if that is to happen, people who have jobs as doctors, engineers or teachers will have to make some preparation and should be given maximum warning.
    Mr. Speaker: I have had no approach from the Minister.
    David Davis: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the problems outlined so clearly by my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack), the risk to the public and to the economy, and the difficulties faced in the Fire Brigades Union dispute, yesterday I contacted the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister to ask whether he would make a statement to the House. Have you heard anything from his Office to indicate that he will make a statement later today or tomorrow?
    Mr. Speaker: I have not heard from the Deputy Prime Minister.
    Mr. Jonathan Djanogly: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. If the Deputy Prime Minister is not to make a statement, have you received an indication that any Minister is likely to make a statement on the important issue of the firefighters' strike?
    Mr. Speaker: All I can say is that Ministers do not seem to be contacting me.
    Mr. Chris Bryant: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Following the various points of order that we have heard from Conservative Members, have you had any notification from the Leader of the Opposition or from the Liberal Democrats that they want to use the Opposition day debate on Wednesday afternoon on the Government's mismanagement of the national lottery to pursue this subject?
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order.
    Mr. Nicholas Soames: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) made a compelling case on a matter in respect of which the Prime Minister—belatedly, and astonishingly belatedly—has called the Cobra committee together only today. Do you recall, in your long years in the House, a Minister not coming to the House of Commons to make a statement on such a matter of the gravest and most fundamental national importance? If
    38
    no Minister has burnt the wires to you over the weekend, will you ensure that Ministers learn from you that you think they ought to do so?
    Mr. Speaker: In my long years in the House, the Speaker has never been drawn into an argument.
    Dr. Julian Lewis: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Given the Government's abject failure to come to the House to make a statement on this extremely worrying potential strike, may I appeal to you to use your discretion in the selection of certain topics for Adjournment debates to give due consideration to this important matter?
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman can make an application in the usual way.
    Miss Anne McIntosh: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I apologise for giving only very short notice of my point of order. On Wednesday last week, the Secretary of State for Transport made a statement to the press and media on some 92 schemes involving 145 million in a rolling programme to tackle congestion and improve safety at junctions across England's trunk roads and motorways. I made inquiries in the Library on Wednesday, but the only document available was a print-out from the Highways Agency website. There was no parliamentary announcement—neither a statement nor a written answer—and no possibility of holding the Secretary of State to account. I declare an interest, as one of the crossings is in my constituency. The local media phoned me, but I had no information to give at that time. Is that a proper way to make such an announcement? There was no democratic accountability, and there is no record of the matter in Hansard.
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Lady gave me some notice on the matter. I can assure her that the Secretary of State has, in this case, met his obligations to the House.
    Mr. Gerald Howarth: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Following on from the point of order made by the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell), it is a fact that about 19,000 members of Her Majesty's armed forces are being diverted to take over from the firemen when they go on strike. Will you tell the House whether you would warmly welcome the Secretary of State for Defence seeking your permission to make a statement? It seems astonishing that the House is not able to consider a matter of such urgency. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) made clear, it is of great concern not only to the ordinary people of this country, but to our armed forces, which may be called on to take part in operations elsewhere in the world, which, although they are not more serious, are certainly much more in line with what they are trained to deploy for.
    Mr. Speaker: Clearly, a Secretary of State does not require my permission to make a statement. He has only to inform me, out of courtesy, that the statement will be made.

Orders of the Day
  Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Bill [Lords]
    New Clause 2

      COMMISSION OF BODY TO STUDY THE EFFECTS OF ACT
      (1) The Secretary of State shall commission a reputable and appropriate qualified body to carry out a rolling study of the effects of this Act on—

      (a) the prevalence of smoking in the United Kingdom population, with particular reference to the uptake of smoking by persons between the ages of 16 and 19 and under the age of 16; and

      (b) the effect of this Act on market shares of different participants in the tobacco industry.

      (2) Following the third anniversary of this Act coming into force, and annually thereafter, the Secretary of State shall arrange for an annual report of the findings of the study commissioned in accordance with subsection (1) above to be laid before Parliament.'.—[Tim Loughton.]

      Brought up, and read the First time.
      4.34 pm
      Tim Loughton: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      The new clause would require the Secretary of State to commission a reputable and appropriate qualified body to carry out a rolling study of the effects of the legislation on the prevalence of smoking in the UK population, with particular reference to those between the ages of 16 and 19, and those under 16, as well as its effects on market share. Furthermore, a report should be made to the House after three years and annually thereafter.
      Throughout the passage of the Bill, our major concern has been with gaining the evidential basis for banning tobacco advertisements, not with the harmful effects of smoking, on which we are all agreed. The new clause is no more than what we and all right-minded people have been asking for throughout the progress of this long-travelling Bill.
      John Robertson: Will the hon. Gentleman clarify the point he just made? Is he saying that tobacco advertising has no effect on the age group that he mentions and that it does not encourage them to smoke, giving them a chance of dying prematurely?
      Tim Loughton: Without going over old ground, the hon. Gentleman well knows that the case that has been made by hon. Members and by people in various industries is that there is no firm evidential basis. There are a number of reports. Some support the case that advertising has an effect on young people and some contradict that. The point is that there is no firm definitive study that without doubt can directly link tobacco advertising with the prevalence of smoking, particularly among children. That is the basis on which we proceed. As we have said all along, it is up to the Government, if they are to ban advertising, to make their case. The point is the link between advertising and smoking. No one disputes that smoking is harmful. It is.
      40
      It is a filthy habit. We hate it. We would like it to be rather less prevalent among the population, particularly the young. That point is not in dispute.
      Mr. Kelvin Hopkins: To look at the argument the other way, why do tobacco companies spend countless billions on advertising tobacco if there is no evidence that it has any effect?
      Tim Loughton: The hon. Gentleman was a member of the Committee. He knows the arguments that have gone backwards and forwards. There are arguments of market share between different brands and a host of other arguments. That is not the point that we are debating in new clause 2. He will have ample opportunity to come up with the new evidence that the Government have signally failed to come up with over the several years that this legislation has been the subject of debate in the House.
      The intention of all of us is to do anything we can to reduce the consumption of tobacco products, especially to prevent take-up among young people. All we are asking for in the new clause is good practice, a facility in the Bill to make changes if new evidence comes to light that the Act is having no effect, or even that it is proving to be counter-productive. Many people have made claims, some of them spurious, some not so spurious, that one of the main influences on prevalence of tobacco smoking is price. That is very dependent on the prevalence of smuggling and cheap availability of cigarettes. There is more evidence to suggest that those factors have more effect on smoking and on young children having access to cigarettes and taking up smoking than advertising does. If in a few years, when the Act has come into force and we have had enough time to judge its effects, a proper independent study deems that the Act is not having the intended consequences or worse still is proving counterproductive, the Secretary of State should have that information and be able to act on it. That is all we are asking for.
      Mr. Nick Hawkins: As my hon. Friend is aware, I have a big interest in the effect of the legislation on sport, particularly minority sports such as darts and fishing. He knows that the world darts championship takes place every year at Frimley Green in my constituency. If it turns out that these very popular sports are severely disadvantaged by the legislation, is that one of the aspects that could be reviewed?
      Tim Loughton: Again, that is a major consideration that the Committee and many hon. Members have raised on numerous occasions. It is an important consideration because it potentially affects sports that are good for people—good for the health of young people. Without those sports, there will be other health implications.
      Mr. Hopkins: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
      Tim Loughton: I would like to answer one point at a time before I do so.
      Of course, the point to which my hon. Friend referred is an implication of the new clause, but I am primarily concerned with studying the effect on the prevalence of

      41
      smoking. If, in a few years' time, the study shows that far from going down, the prevalence of smoking has increased, we need to know why. We will need to know whether the Act has had a counter-productive effect in some respects. Some would say that, without recourse to advertising, tobacco companies will resort to price-cutting among various brands, and, as I said, price is one of the most sensitive aspects of the prevalence of the smoking. If the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Hopkins) wants to intervene now, I shall take one more intervention and then try to make progress.
      Mr. Hopkins: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that the health-giving qualities of playing snooker, playing darts and driving fast motor cars counters the damage to millions of people's health from smoking?
      Tim Loughton: I am not in the business of trying to undermine two very popular sports—darts and snooker. The international darts competitions ban smoking—the players certainly do not idle up to the oche with a fag in their hands. Those two sports have merits, which may not be health-related but give people an interest that keeps them out of trouble in many respects. I do not want to single out those two sports, but there are many other sports that currently have tobacco sponsorship that will lose that money. Those sports may have many beneficial effects in making sport available to young children who would not otherwise have such opportunities.
      To return to new clause 2, the proposed rolling study would in no way undermine the ban in the Bill. It does not oppose the ban in the Bill; it purely raises the question of the circumstances in which that ban should remain on the statute book if research in a few years' time shows that that ban is not having the desired effect. That is right and sensible, and I would hope that Members on both sides of the House could agree with that. The noble Lord Clement-Jones, who resurrected the Bill in another place, said:
      "the burden of proof lies squarely on the Bill's opponents, in view of the achievable public health benefits."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 2 November 2001; Vol. 627, c. 1710.]
      I disagree. Surely the onus of proof is on the Govt's shoulders if they want to ban something: somebody or something is innocent until proven guilty.
      I repeat that we are not arguing about the public health benefits of giving up smoking—we are all agreed on that—but about whether advertising is linked to the prevalence of smoking. The new clause does not even go the whole hog towards inserting a strict sunset measure into the Bill, which, if it came into effect, would negate the whole legislation in certain circumstances. We are not going the whole way. Instead, the new clause is a paving clause, so that the Secretary of State can be improperly informed about the effectiveness of the Act, make that research transparent and available to Parliament, and, if the research shows that there is a problem, the Secretary of State will no doubt wish to reverse the legislation of his own accord, without any prompting. That is all we are asking—we are not forcing him to terminate the legislation but making sure that that research is available to all, as, so far, we have not had definitive research that proves the link conclusively.
      Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory: I notice that my hon. Friend's new clause would only produce such a
      42
      study after three years. Is he aware that Mr. Martin Taylor carried out a report for the Treasury in the last Parliament showing the effect of the accelerated duty increases after 1997, particularly on smuggling? That report remains secret in the Treasury, although its conclusions were widely leaked. Would he consider calling for a study to be produced more quickly—perhaps immediately—before further damage is done by the growing gap between the price of tobacco in this country and on the continent?
      4.45 pm
      Tim Loughton: My right hon. Friend makes a valid point. There is not only one influence on smoking, namely tobacco product advertising, if that is an influence. There are many other influences, of which smuggling probably is one of the biggest. Anyone who has visited schools in their constituency will be only too aware of people selling cheap cigarettes outside playgrounds, or people at car boot sales selling cheap cigarettes that have been illicitly brought into this country from the continent. That is having an enormous effect on the prevalence of smoking, which is why smoking has gone up again since 1997. If the Government published that report and did rather more to act upon what I judge to be its findings, that might contribute more to reducing smoking in this country than concentrating on this one unproven measure.
      Mr. David Ruffiey: Would my hon. Friend care to speculate on the reasons why Her Majesty's Government have declined to publish in full the Taylor report?
      Tim Loughton: I would but I fear that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, would rule me to be wayward in terms of the new clause. My hon. Friend will have ample opportunity to challenge the Chancellor on that subject when he produces his pre-Budget report in a few weeks. I urge him to do so.
      I am slightly disappointed that the Government have not introduced a full sunset provision into the Bill in the first place. Certainly there are several precedents for doing so. The Government have justified their Bill not on the facts, but on two principal beliefs. The first is that the Bill will reduce tobacco consumption and the prevalence of smoking within the population by 2.5 per cent. in the long term. The second is that only a comprehensive advertising ban will be sufficient to bring about that result.
      We know that the United Kingdom tobacco companies strongly contest those claims. In their view, the Bill will have perverse effects and tobacco consumption and the prevalence of smoking will be at levels higher than would otherwise be the case. However, one does not have to accept what the industry says to justify serious questioning of the Government's speculative approach to the Bill.
      The Opposition are prepared to accept neither the industry's nor the Government's arguments, neither of which offers any certainty. That is why we would have preferred the Bill to be the subject of a sunset provision. Such provisions are not unheard of from the Government: indeed, they took great pains to point out that the Electronic Communications Act 2000 started

      43
      with such a provision. How much better it would be if that had been the case with this Bill also and the Government had provided the opportunity for voluntary and agreed self-regulation to achieve their policy objectives.
      The Government's resistance to a sunset clause in the Bill is most puzzling, given that it was a manifesto pledge of the Government to review all major legislation after three years. As paragraph 3.26 of the Cabinet Office's recently published guidance for policy makers on the use of the regulatory impact assessment states:
      "You will need to plan for this and include details of your plans in the RIA. Guidance on how to undertake these three-yearly reviews will be issued by the Cabinet Office"
      —hence the three-year rolling research requirement in the new clause.
      Earlier paragraph 2.17 of the same Cabinet Office guidance recommended the consideration of sunsetting "where there are significant scientific uncertainties and more information might lead to a different solution."
      That is certainly the case with the Bill, as those uncertainties and more information may well become evident from its outcomes. Paragraph 2.18 of the guidance states that where sunsetting—a horrible word—
      "may not be appropriate consider a review mechanism instead. The RIA should give details including whether it is to be a statutory review (for example put on the face of the legislation) or a political commitment to be done within a number of years."
      Our thoughts on this matter are not that far removed from those of the Cabinet Office. The only point at issue is the appropriateness of the review and of sunsetting to the Bill. We believe that it is appropriate. The Opposition's position is clear. Serious health risks have been associated with smoking. Those risks are well known and understood by smokers and the public generally. Children should not smoke and should not be allowed access to tobacco products. Adults, on the other hand, should be free to make an informed choice about whether to smoke. It is an objective of public health policy to reduce total tobacco consumption and the prevalence of smoking in the population—we all agree with that. While it is not against the law to manufacture, sell, buy or smoke tobacco products, it is appropriate that the advertising and promotion of tobacco products should be regulated.
      The key questions therefore include, first, whether the Bill will reduce total tobacco consumption and the prevalence of smoking, especially among children and young people. The Government believe that such a ban could reduce tobacco consumption in the longer term by 2.5 per cent. The second question is whether the comprehensive bans are necessary and proportionate as between the public interest ends that might be served by the prohibitions imposed and the means used to achieve them. The burden of proof lies with the Government and we do not believe that they have provided definitive proof.
      Numerous studies have considered whether tobacco advertising affects consumption and have considered the tobacco market after the imposition of controls or an advertising ban. Reviews of such studies in the aggregate have endeavoured to form conclusions,
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      but none of the studies has been conclusive or produced conclusions that have not been contradicted by another similar study. Importantly, a significant empirical literature finds little or no effect of tobacco advertising on smoking. None of the studies is of a nature that makes them predictive of the consequences in the UK of the kind of prohibitions that the Bill contains.
      New clause 2 would provide an opportunity to fill the gap that I have just described with rolling research by a reputable and qualified body, selected by the Secretary of State. If research finds that the Act is deficient, measures could be taken.
      Pete Wishart: Who would the hon. Gentleman expect to serve on the committee?
      Tim Loughton: We have left it described in the new clause as a "reputable and…qualified body". We are not trying to constrict the Secretary of State. New clause 2 is an innocuous measure that would ensure that research is done. I do not mean the contradictory research that has been done so far. but proper research that specifically monitors the effects of the Act on an ongoing basis. If the Secretary of State would like to suggest a firm, a body or a group of people to carry out that study, we would be interested in that. It should also be up to Parliament to decide. The findings required by the new clause should be made available to Parliament. However, nothing in the Bill requires the Secretary of State to do any further research into whether it is effective.
      New clause 2 contains innocuous and helpful suggestions and I find it odd that several other hon. Members find it contentious. We all surely agree with what we are trying to achieve. The issue is the means, not the end result. I commend new clause 2 as an improvement to the Bill.
      Mr. Hopkins: The suggestion that advertising has no effect on the amount of smoking is extraordinary. Tobacco companies cannot believe that, otherwise they would not spend countless billions of pounds across the world on tobacco advertising and they would not be so keen to avoid the Bill. New clause 2 is unnecessary, bureaucratic and, indeed, somewhat cynical.
      Tim Loughton: Does the hon. Gentleman think that if the Government had approached tobacco companies five years ago and asked for a voluntary ban on tobacco advertising, the companies would have acquiesced? There is evidence to suggest that that is the case.
      Mr. Hopkins: I suspect that tobacco companies have been aware for a long time that there is a threat of a compulsory ban on advertising, and perhaps they were desperate to find a way—[HON. MEMBERS: "The middle way."] The middle way, indeed. They were desperate to find a way to avoid the Bill.
      I regard the Bill as a starting point, and I would like to go rather further than the Government have gone. I hope that in time we shall go further.
      Tim Loughton: The hon. Gentleman has not answered my question. I asked whether he thought that tobacco companies would have agreed to the proposal five years

      45
      ago. I think that there is strong evidence that they would have done, regardless of what might have been coming. If they had, what the Bill proposes would already be in force, and instead of the Government's several attempts to reincarnate the Bill, we would have had no tobacco advertising for the last five years.
      Mr. Hopkins: The hon. Gentleman may say that, but I am deeply suspicious of tobacco companies, and I suspect that a voluntary ban would have been a soft option for them. They would have found a way round it, and it would have been obvious that it was their way of preventing a ban from being built into the law.
      To suggest that the Bill will have no effect is an attempt to undermine its credibility. It would be simple to count the number of cigarettes consumed and the number of smokers. Some civil service office could do it every year, and if the Bill were having no effect, there might be other factors.
      The hon. Gentleman rightly referred to price-cutting; clearly price is an important consideration. I would like to ensure that there is no further price-cutting. If tobacco companies want to substitute a cut in price for their spending on advertising, so as to sell more of their products, let us put up the taxes on cigarettes to fill the gap, so that the Government have a bigger tax take to help with the appalling cost of cigarette smoking to the national health service.
      Mr. Ruffley: I am listening to the hon. Gentleman's remarks with care. Does he think that there is any argument that tobacco companies may advertise, not necessarily to sell more cigarettes in total, but to drive down their competitors' market share? Has he not ignored that argument so far?
      Mr. Hopkins: I am sorry, but I must say again that I am deeply suspicious of tobacco companies, and I suspect that they work in collaboration. We have heard the market share argument many times, and my belief, although I may be shot down for it, is that the whole idea of tobacco advertising is to create a culture in which tobacco usage is seen as a good thing, cosy and friendly—something that we can all do and enjoy, like many other harmless pursuits. Cigarette smoking is not harmless; it is very harmful, and we must take steps to stop it, initially by persuasion through Bills such as this.
      We have talked about cigarette smoking as if it were an "informed choice". In my youth I was addicted to cigarette smoking, and I gave up 32 years ago. Smoking was not an informed choice, but an addiction. I had great difficulty in giving up, and so do most people. The whole idea of tobacco advertising is to create a world that makes smoking acceptable, colourful and part of one's identity, so that young people become addicted. Once they are hooked, they find great difficulty in giving up, as all of us who have known addicts, or who have been addicts ourselves, will know. That is the sole objective of advertising: to get people hooked. After that, the companies make their money.
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      The new clause proposes a bureaucracy to put a smokescreen round the real problem, which is to find ways—through the Bill and other measures—to reduce and eventually end all cigarette smoking.
      Mr. Boris Johnson: Is the ultimate tendency of the hon. Gentleman's argument to ban tobacco smoking altogether? Is that what he would like to do? Only the other day, I heard him—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. That is inviting the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Hopkins) to go well beyond the confines of the new clause.
      Mr. Hopkins: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
      I have every confidence that in the end people's intelligence will prevail and they will choose not to become smokers, because they will realise that it is dangerous and addictive. That is what we are trying to get across to people, but they will make a free choice.
      Richard Ottaway: I am trying to keep within the confines of the debate. If such a group were established, it could look at the anomaly that may well arise from clause 10, which deals with the prohibition of sponsorship. Its definition of sponsorship agreements could fall foul of internal agreements within the trade, which I doubt the Bill intends. That is just the sort of issue that the group could look at, opine on, and report back on to the Minister. In the absence of such a group, how could such a flaw in the Bill be exposed?
      5 pm
      Mr. Hopkins: I am sure that some of the technicalities will be addressed by my hon. Friend the Minister, but my concern is the proposal to establish a bureaucracy to look at the effects on cigarette smoking. I am surprised at Opposition Members: they constantly go on about quangos, bureaucracies and unnecessary additional bodies, yet their proposed body is completely unnecessary. It would be the simplest thing in the world to measure the number of cigarettes smoked, the amount of smoking that goes on, and the effect of an advertising ban over a particular period. However, given that cigarettes are so addictive, such impact will take time. Changing the culture of smoking that exists among many young people—sadly, it is increasing among young women—will take time. However, we have to start changing it, and this Bill constitutes a very good start.
      Dr. Evan Harris: It is a long time since we considered the Bill in Committee. It was first promised in the governing party's 1997 general election manifesto, and it seems to be taking a very long time for it to reach the statute book. None the less, it is my pleasure to welcome the Minister to her relatively new position. The Committee that considered this Bill was one of the few places in which we could get away from her hyperactivity in health matters, but she is certainly welcome to join us. I also take this opportunity to pay tribute to her predecessor, the hon. Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), who did a fantastic job on this Bill in particular and who is

      47
      regarded as an excellent Minister. She did not deserve her fate of being moved sideways—allegedly—to the Lord Chancellor's Department.
      The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) will be unsurprised to learn that we will not be supporting the new clause. However, because he has been very consistent in his approach to the Bill—he deserves credit for that—it is worth explaining to him why we will not support it. It is important to have an evidence-based policy, particularly given that, by curtailing the liberty to advertise, we are to some extent curtailing civil liberties. As the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Hopkins) mentioned, we should recognise that we are curtailing not the liberty to be addicted—that is a liberty not worth protecting—but to advertise, so we need to ensure a good evidence base. However, in taking issue—by arguing that one should be innocent until proven guilty—with the contention of my noble Friend Lord Clement-Jones that the burden of proof is on the tobacco industry, the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham uses the wrong analogy. To me, the evidence is clear that the tobacco industry and the associated advertising have been proven guilty. The burden of proof is on those making the appeal; they need to provide new evidence if they want to reopen the case.
      Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: Surely the point of the new clause is to look at the whole problem. We face a fiscal problem, involving billions of pounds being lost in smuggling and cross-border shopping; a law and order problem, through the epidemic of smuggling through the white van trade; and a health problem, through the sale of smuggled cigarettes to youngsters, who take up smoking for the first time as a result. It is not just a question of advertising. This well-drafted new clause and the generality of the study are precisely concerned with looking at the whole problem, rather than pretending that an advertising ban will prove anything more than a pin-prick.
      Dr. Harris: I accept what the right hon. Gentleman says about there being other issues of concern. I also accept that tackling them might achieve an even greater health gain than can be obtained by this measure, which I do not consider the be-all and end-all. However, I would not describe it as a pin-prick—the hundreds of lives that are reckoned to be saved are more than a pinprick. Nevertheless, the issues that he raises do exist, and I and many other hon. Members, including a couple from his own party, talked about them on Second Reading.
      The only possible impact of the measure to ban advertising, according to the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham, would be price reduction in lieu of advertising. However, if anything, that would serve to undermine, or weaken the pressure for, a parallel trade in smuggled goods, so I accept the premise of the right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. HeathcoatAmory) but not his conclusions.
      The burden is on the tobacco industry to demonstrate that the measure is counter-productive, if that is what it believes. That is why we do not need a Government-sponsored research programme. Research will be
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      undertaken; there will certainly be research sponsored by the tobacco industry and the tobacco advertising industry, although I would not trust it. However, the subject is one of interest and contention. There is extensive literature about the effects of advertising bans in other countries and I suspect that independent bodies will produce such research for this country.
      Government-sponsored research is not necessarily best in such a highly politicised field. I am concerned about the Government's approach to their research contracts—for example, the inappropriate control that they exercise over publication dates and other matters. If possible, independent research would be best. That is another reason why the new clause is wide of the mark.
      Dr. Andrew Murrison: The hon. Gentleman has partially answered my question. If he does not trust research sponsored by either the industry or the Government, what research would he trust?
      Dr. Harris: As the hon. Gentleman pointed out, I have already answered his question. There are still some thriving academic institutions in this country—just about—and, indeed, throughout the world, which are capable of undertaking such research. I certainly should not dismiss out of hand research from any source. I merely point out that the hon. Gentleman's party would do best to promote—
      Dr. Murrison rose—
      Dr. Harris: Perhaps I could answer the hon. Gentleman's first question. His party would do better to promote the health of independent research in this country and in the wider world rather than calling for Governments of any complexion to fund research into highly politicised issues.
      Dr. Murrison: The hon. Gentleman misconstrued my words. I was talking about sponsorship not active research. I am sure that he agrees that academic institutions can be relied on to produce objective research. Sponsorship is a separate matter.
      Dr. Harris: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the work that has been done and the concerns that have been raised about the control of the publication and content of research sponsored by Departments. There is an extensive literature and it does not make for happy reading. I am not saying that there is necessarily a relationship with the control-freakery of the present Government, but the concerns are well established. Indeed, some more outspoken Ministers have expressed concern about the quality of research in the social field and that has given rise to anxiety about future funding in those areas.
      Mr. Hopkins: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that only today the British Medical Association published a document entitled "Tobacco under the Microscope: The Doctors' Manifesto for Global Tobacco Control", which might relate to the objective research about which Members are asking?
      Dr. Harris: I was a member of the BMA board of science when some of that work was being undertaken,

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      so I did not think it appropriate to blow that particular trumpet, but there are sources of sponsorship that are even more independent than Government sources for such research.
      I question whether the people who argue against a ban on tobacco advertising would ever accept such findings. The history of the passage of the measure and of scientific findings about tobacco has been one of resolute refusal to accept what has clearly been shown by evidence not only about advertising but about the causation of disease by tobacco. I would have more faith that tobacco companies would accept the results of independent research if they apologised for their obstructive approach to the public acceptance of the case—clearly accepted by the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham—that tobacco smoking and addiction to tobacco is extremely damaging.
      The hon. Gentleman referred to anxiety that price cutting might be used to get around a ban on advertising. That could certainly be a factor, but if we were to argue that it was of overriding importance—especially before it had even occurred—we should never have banned the advertising of things that are currently banned. Indeed, one would want there to be an advertising free-for-all on all products to ensure that prices went up on undesirable substances. If there is clear evidence that an advertising ban would reduce addiction, particularly among young people, we should do what we are doing, even if there is a risk of price cuts—although the major component of the price of tobacco is of course taxation.
      The Conservatives have prayed in aid darts and snooker. I support darts and snooker having recognition as sports. They are small sports, but they should not be recognised as sports on the basis of the health impact of the exercise associated with them, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for Luton, North. Some of us feel that the definition of sport could be wider. Indeed, even Ministers share that view in relation to mind sports. All those sports would thrive better if they were not associated with the stench, literally and figuratively, of tobacco.
      The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham argued in an intervention on the hon. Member for Luton, North that, somehow, the tobacco industry might have been interested in a voluntary ban five years ago, but I am not convinced that that is the case. I should be interested to see what evidence there was for that. However, we are where we are: there has been no voluntary ban, and Bernie Ecclestone's actions in trying to get round a ban five years ago is clear evidence that few other options were on the table.
      Mr. Hawkins: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way because he has been talking about some of the sports issues that I raised in an intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton). The hon. Gentleman talks about the embarrassment of various people in the history of the Bill, but does he agree that the greatest embarrassment must lie with the Government? They were in the extraordinary situation of accepting a huge amount of money from Mr. Ecclestone and apparently doing favours for Formula 1 and, as a result of all that being revealed, Mr. Ecclestone got his money back. So the Government hardly come to this issue without
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      embarrassment. Lucrative sports, such as Formula 1 and snooker, have a dispensation; less well-off sports, such as darts and fishing, which I mentioned, have no dispensation, so the Bill is in a mess and it needs the review that is set out in the new clause.
      Dr. Harris: The hon. Gentleman may be seeking to lead me out of order and I do not intend to go down that path. In relation to the first part of his intervention, yes, what happened certainly embarrassed the Government, and the Government should accept that.
      Richard Ottaway: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
      Dr. Harris: I may give way in a moment, but I want to bring my remarks to a close.
      The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham discussed other ways to achieve what he seeks to achieve. For example, he was driven to such an unusual approach by the absence of sunset provisions. I should be interested to know whether he considered proposing sunset provisions so that we could discuss them now, because the Liberal Democrats are not automatically opposed to them, although the Conservatives have opposed such provisions in the past.
      I do not know what happened to new clause 1, which was an alternative to new clause 2, as it would have given the Government order-making powers of the type that I always thought those on the Conservative Front Bench sought to oppose. That would have been a worse alternative, but the new clause is pretty poor, so we shall oppose it.
      John Robertson: I will keep my remarks fairly short because hon. Members have touched on just about everything that I wanted to say. While I was considering the new clause, I had to ask myself why a rolling study of the legislation's effects is needed, but I could not find out anything. Perhaps the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) could answer that question, but he obviously cannot be bothered to listen to me.
      I asked myself, "If tobacco advertising does not cause any deaths or harm, why should it be there; it is obviously a waste of money?" I decided to read previous speeches that other hon. Members had made, and a came across a statement that Mr. Philip Morris had made back in 1981.
      He said:
      "Today's teenager is tomorrow's potential regular customer, and the overwhelming majority of smokers first begin to smoke while in their teens. It is during the teenage years that the initial brand choice is made: At least a part of the success of Marlboro Red during its most rapid growth period was because it became the brand choice among teenagers who then stuck with it as they grew older."
      That was said by someone well entrenched in the tobacco industry and who has made billions of pounds from it. Advertising is there to entrap the young.
      5.15 pm
      Tim Loughton: Does the hon. Gentleman know who Mr. Morrison is?
      John Robertson: I said "Morris". The hon. Gentleman may have heard of him. He is big in the

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      Marlboro world and he is probably a personal friend—[Interruption.] I have another point to make. Why should someone who has said that he is totally against smoking want to speak on behalf of someone who has already said that his idea is to entrap young people into taking up smoking? As we know, it takes about 500,000 lives a year in this country alone.
      Tim Loughton: I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not trying to pin that one on me. Like other Conservative Members, I have made it absolutely clear that we hate and abhor smoking and would like to do everything that we can to reduce the prevalence of smoking in this country. To be inquisitive about the measures in the Bill is not to be pro-smoking. Will the hon. Gentleman get that into his mindset before he makes any further comments?
      John Robertson: I thank the hon. Gentleman; I obviously hit the right note—methinks the gentleman protests too much.
      We must stop children becoming addicted to smoking, and the Bill's provisions are a small price to pay if they stop people making money out of smoking. The sooner we stop tobacco advertising and stop children smoking, the better.
      Mr. Ruffley: I support new clause 2 and the trenchant comments of my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton). The clause is not about support for increased tobacco consumption. It is entirely consistent with Her Majesty's Opposition's view that we should reduce the number of deaths from tobacco smoking. It is consistent with our public health policy to make sure that tobacco consumption should not increase and with our policy that children should not smoke and should not have further access to tobacco products. It is consistent with our policy that adults should not be forced to smoke, but make an informed choice. It is consistent with our view that manufacturing cigarettes is not illegal, but that tobacco consumption and its advertising should be regulated.
      The debate is about means and about creating good law. I genuinely do not believe that there is much difference between Labour and Conservative Members on the issue. The Conservative party—I make no apology for this—is a modernising and forward-looking party and, above all, a party that is interested in good law and in making bad clauses better not worse. That is the thrust behind the new clause.
      Dr. Murrison: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is one thing making good law, but that the setting up of a body that has little prospect of showing the effects that it is intended to show is not consistent with that process?
      Mr. Ruffley: My hon. Friend is not giving due credit to the thought behind the new clause, which is that an independent body could better judge the statistics than Ministers. They seem to be rather prejudiced on this subject. I say to my hon. Friend with the utmost humility that all we are trying to do is to improve the process. The independent body envisaged by the new clause would add to the debate and the quality of regulation rather than detract from it.
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      New clause 2 would ensure that the regime is reviewed if consumption increases, and the Government may have to introduce new legislation to extend the ban. We do not want a flawed policy: we do not want the Bill as it stands to get on the statute book, consumption to increase and the regime to continue for ever. We want to have the ability to review what is going on. That is only common sense. It is rational, reasonable and fair. We are saying, "Let's take stock in three years." That is a no-risk policy for the Government, whom I hope want good law, not bad law.
      Bob Spink: I am listening carefully. I support the Bill, which is a good piece of legislation. The problem is that it is long overdue. I am trying to grasp my hon. Friend's argument and hope that he will explain how the new clause would help us to reduce the number of young people who take up smoking at 16, 17 and 18. I cannot understand how it would deliver that result and, if it does not, I am sceptical about it.
      Mr. Ruffley: If my hon. Friend reads the new clause carefully, he will realise that we intend to review what happens after three years. As my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham said, the evidence is ambiguous. There are no obvious rights and wrongs. We are merely suggesting that we review the evidence after a period of time.
      Bob Spink: My hon. Friend says that the evidence is ambiguous. Will he accept an invitation to join me at Southend hospital? I was there last Friday and there was no ambiguity in the evidence I saw when I spoke to someone with lung cancer who had been given four months to live.
      Mr. Ruffley: I do not want to trade anecdotes with my hon. Friend, for whom I have much respect. As my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham explained, the hard statistical evidence is moderately ambiguous. All we are saying is that we should take stock by having a proper review after three years, which is reasonable and fair. It may well be that after that time has elapsed and after the statistics have been considered, the independent body reaches the same conclusion as my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink). I do not prejudge the issue; I merely support the new clause, which makes a reasonable argument for an independent body to take stock.
      The Government talk, no doubt with good intentions, about reducing regulation and the burden of red tape on British industry, of which tobacco manufacturing is one part. That is a noble aim, but I fear that in too many regulations since 1997 the Government have demonstrated an unwillingness to embrace the culture of sunset clauses. My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham is right to jib at the coining of the verb "to sunset" and the word "sunsetting", but the concept is valid. Many Labour Members understand its virtues. They will have seen, as I have, how the burden of justifying the continuation of new regulation in many parts of the United States is passed to the Government. A sunset clause ensures that if a regulation is no longer necessary after a specified time, it is incumbent on the Government and officials to say that the regulation is still good and should remain in place. They then have to take the time and trouble to reintroduce it.

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      We are not claiming that there should be no regulation, but that it should be reviewed sensibly. The new clause provides that if the reason for the regulation disappears, it would fall, and it would be up to the Government of the day to take the time and trouble to pass it again. The onus would be on the Government to pass red tape. The American experience supports my instincts that such a provision would mean less unnecessary red tape.
      The new clause is in the tradition that I described of reviewing a policy after a time. If the reasons for the regulation no longer pertain, and if it is an unnecessary encumbrance on commerce and civil society, it should fall. The new clause merely states that the jury is out and that the policy will be examined in future. It could contribute to the greater goal that we should all share: less red tape in British government and society. I therefore strongly support the excellent reasons that my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham adduced, and the thrust behind new clause 2.
      Pete Wishart: I shall be brief. All hon. Members who served in Committee or participated on Second Reading will be familiar with the issues and arguments that have been bandied about in the past few months.
      The Conservatives' position is curious. I tried to follow its logic at length in Committee and today. I have no doubt that Conservatives want to reduce smoking-related disease, ensure that young people do not begin smoking and want as many people as possible to come off cigarettes. However, they appear torn between wanting to do something positive—the Bill obviously offers an opportunity to do that—and a strange commitment to a curious form of free speech that extends only to tobacco manufacturers.
      In Committee, the Conservative Members who served on it devoted their time to, in their words, "improving the legislation". They believed that the drafting was sloppy, and generously made it their mission to improve the Bill so that the Government would be spared time and expense in the courts. However, the new amendments may increase that time and expense.
      New clause 2 proposes the creation of
      "a reputable and appropriate qualified body to carry out a rolling study".
      I asked the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) who would serve on the body. I had an awful nightmare of an ad hoc committee made up of health professionals on one side and tobacco manufacturers on the other, chaired by Bernie Ecclestone.
      The new clause is superfluous. We have seen the evidence from other countries and Conservative Members have considered it. In Norway, Finland, New Zealand and France, where a full tobacco advertising ban was introduced as a part of a comprehensive antismoking policy, adult consumption of cigarettes has fallen per capita between 15 per cent. and 34 per cent. The Government cautiously believe that we will reduce smoking by some 2.5 per cent. That is a modest estimate. However, if only one person gave up smoking through an advertising ban, it would be worth while. Many of us believe that there is something wrong with tobacco companies being able to advertise their poisonous product as if it were a benign household commodity.
      54
      At first, I was interested in the new clause because I thought that the Conservatives were being helpful and introducing a provision that would ensure that the Bill remained rigorous and that any attempts by tobacco companies to find loopholes in the measure were examined. Many studies about the tobacco industry show that it displays appalling cynicism and makes continued attempts to flout the rules. It does not care about the health and welfare of its clients and consumers, except to minimise health concerns.
      Tobacco companies are getting desperate. Their marketing exercises have been cranked up in the past few months before the Bill becomes law. Direct mailing and free distributions where young people congregate have increased. I do not get out much of an evening, but when I was at the Edinburgh festival a few weeks ago, it was almost impossible to move in some pubs for representatives of tobacco companies giving out free products and exchanging them for half-empty packets to try to get young people hooked. They are shamelessly trying to get young people hooked before the Bill becomes law.
      Mr. Hopkins: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that such actions are not too distant from those of heroin peddlers who try to get people addicted? They often target the mentally ill. Perhaps tobacco manufacturers do not see themselves in that light, but there is a parallel.
      5.30 pm
      Pete Wishart: I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman; he makes a very good point. Tobacco companies sending their representatives into pubs where young people congregate constitutes a shameless attempt to flaunt their product, and I am thankful that the Bill will now become law and that that practice will come to an end. That cannot happen a day too soon.
      The Conservatives see the new clause as a means of considering the deficiencies of the Bill. They could have used it as a useful way of looking at the progress of the legislation and of ensuring that it remained rigorous. The only thing that seems to concern them in the new clause is the market shares of the different participants in the tobacco industry. I have to say that I could not give a fig about the market shares of those participants; I hope that they fall into ruin and are unable to peddle their poisonous products any longer. I am concerned only about how they might try to get round the legislation and exploit potential loopholes that might be uncovered.
      There should be a rolling study of the Bill, when it becomes an Act, but it should he carried out in conjunction with tackling the environment in which so many young people are becoming hooked on smoking. I also agree with the comment made earlier that this should be seen as part of a process and not just a one-off event. We have to try to challenge the culture that exists among young people between the ages of 12 and 17. That is the real danger period for young people who become hooked on cigarettes. This is perhaps even more important now, in the light of the recent evidence showing an increased prevalence of breast cancer among women who smoked as girls.
      The tobacco industry will try to circumvent this new legislation. When they are losing hundreds of smokers a day, they need new recruits and they will attempt to find

      55
      them. We must remain vigilant and, if necessary, revisit the legislation if loopholes appear, but not under the arrangements proposed in the new clause. I therefore urge hon. Members to vote against it.
      The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ms Hazel Blears): This is my first opportunity to participate in proceedings on the Bill, and I am delighted to be able to do so. I pay tribute to my predecessor as Minister of Public Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), for the way in which she steered the Bill through Committee. She did an incredible amount of preparatory work for it, and I hope that we shall finally get a result today.
      I have some sympathy with the motivation behind new clause 2. We shall certainly not be able to sit back when the Bill is on the statute book. As the hon. Member for North Tayside (Pete Wishart) has just pointed out, tobacco companies may invest considerable resources and ingenuity in trying to redirect some of the £130 million that they spend every year on advertising their products in this country.
      I support evidence-based policy making, but it is odd to put such a commitment to evaluation in a Bill as a statutory obligation. That is simply not necessary. The Government can already commission such studies, and to put that requirement into legislation would reduce their flexibility over what they might cover and how often they were done. I think that it was the hon. Member for Southport (Dr. Pugh) who pointed out that such evidence and research is highly complex and difficult to obtain. We are not simply dealing with quantifiable research: this is about behaviour change.
      Richard Ottaway: In my intervention on the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Hopkins), I brought up the weakness in clause 10, which relates to sponsorship agreements and is vague, woolly, ambiguous and unclear. How is that sort of thing going to be flushed out? Surely a body such as that we propose would flush the problems out and bring them into the open.
      Ms Blears: I do not accept that the provisions on sponsorship are woolly or ambiguous. We have the provisions in the Bill and we are also consulting—as I speak—on the sponsorship transitional provisions. I think that they are extremely clear, and I commend the consultation document to the hon. Gentleman, if he has not already read it.
      Richard Ottaway: If the Minister is saying that the provisions are clear and unambiguous, will she tell me whether they apply to sponsorship agreements within the trade between suppliers and retailers?
      Ms Blears: Certainly. Whether or not the provisions apply to agreements will depend on the terms of the agreements.
      Richard Ottaway: That is rather woolly.
      Ms Blears: It is not woolly. I am saying to the hon. Gentleman that whether the agreements are caught by
      56
      the legislation will depend on whether they fall within the definition in the Bill and the regulations. He knows that it is part of the normal course of legislation that we define something, and whether it falls within that definition is a matter for the legislation and, ultimately, the courts.
      I know that, in some countries, wholesalers pay retailers to ensure that products are displayed prominently, perhaps even above those of their rivals in certain circumstances. If that were a sponsorship agreement in that the effect was to promote a tobacco product, it might well fall foul of the sponsorship provisions. The sponsorship provisions are clear. I do not think that they are woolly. If the effect is that companies are paying to promote tobacco products to the public, we will want to prohibit that. If such agreements fall into that category, we will prohibit them.
      We have reserve powers in the Bill to introduce regulations on display. We went into that at great length in Committee. If a display is abused to a point at which it becomes an overt representation of the goods, we may have to use such powers.
      Subsection (2) of the new clause suggests that there should be an annual report. If that requirement were in the Bill, however, it might become burdensome after 10 years. We might have conclusive results during that period. We need flexibility, not simply to respond to the ban and to ensure that the right sort of research is taking place, but so that we can respond to new needs for research in other areas as they arise. Much of the legislation has been framed to ensure that it is fluid enough to react to developments as they happen. The history of the action of tobacco companies shows that they are ingenious in finding other ways of promoting their product, so it is important for us to have flexibility in relation to research as well as in relation to the statutory provisions that are in place.
      Mr. Adrian Flook: The Minister spoke at length about promotion of products by tobacco companies. What would happen if a tobacco company demoted a competitor's product?
      Ms Blears: That argument too was considered in Committee—an arcane one, I feel. We discussed what would happen if advertising dissed other companies' products, as happens sometimes in America. "Diss" is an advertising term meaning to have a go at a competitor's product. If a company said that another company's cornflakes were not as good as its own, would that have the effect of promoting the product? It would be a question of interpretation. If an advertisement had the effect of promoting a tobacco product, it would clearly fall foul of the prohibition. If it did not have that effect, it would not be caught by the prohibition.
      I suspect that the Opposition Members who tabled the new clause were being disingenuous. I suspect that they tabled it because they were doubtful about the effectiveness of an advertising ban in helping to reduce consumption. We have discussed that before, at great length, but I am happy to repeat the reasons for our belief that the weight of the evidence suggests a link between an advertising ban and reduced tobacco

      57
      consumption, and also a link between the promotion of cigarettes and the decision of young people to start smoking.
      The Smee report, produced by the Department of Health's chief economic adviser in 1992 at the request of the last Government, contained important research. It analysed existing evidence of the effect of tobacco advertising on tobacco consumption. Smee reviewed 19 studies, mainly from the United Kingdom and the United States, most of which analysed the effect of year-to-year fluctuations in advertising expenditure within countries. The report concluded:
      "The preponderance of positive results does indicate that advertising has a positive effect on consumption".
      Smee went on to consider countries that had introduced comprehensive bans on tobacco advertising. The most significant were Norway and Finland, where bans had been in place for more than a decade. He also considered Canada and New Zealand, where there had been more recent bans. He acknowledged the complications of such studies, the main one being that advertising bans were often introduced in conjunction with other tobacco control measures, but concluded:
      "In each case the banning of advertising was followed by a fall in smoking on a scale which cannot reasonably be attributed to other factors".
      Other work has reached similar conclusions. A 1999 report from the World Bank, "Curbing the Epidemic", said:
      "policymakers who are interested in controlling tobacco need to know whether cigarette advertising and promotion affect consumption. The answer is that they almost certainly do, although the data are not straightforward. The key conclusion is that bans on advertising and promotion prove effective, but only if they are comprehensive, covering all media and all uses of brand names and logos."
      The World Bank suggests that implementation of the EU directive could have reduced cigarette consumption in the European Union by almost 7 per cent. The right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) referred to the advertising ban as a pinprick. I do not consider the possibility of saving up to 3,000 lives a year a minor effect.
      Other evidence comes from the American researchers Saffer and Chaloupka, who studied data from 22 countries and concluded:
      "tobacco advertising increases tobacco consumption. The empirical research also shows that comprehensive advertising bans can reduce tobacco consumption, but that a limited set of advertising bans will have little or no effect. A limited set of advertising bans will not reduce the total level of advertising expenditure but will simply result in substitution to the remaining non-banned media. When more of the remaining media are eliminated, the options for substitution are also eliminated."
      On the effect of tobacco advertising on children, university of Manchester researchers in the mid-1990s found:
      "Awareness of certain brands of cigarette was linked to an increased risk of onset of smoking in 11–13 year olds, especially girls. Awareness of the most advertised brands was a strong predictor of smoking, while awareness of other brands, probably known from other sources, was a less likely predictor. Children appear to take in the messages of cigarette advertising and interpret them as generic to smoking rather than brand specific."
      58
      A study of adolescents in California between 1993 and 1996 found
      "clear evidence that tobacco industry advertising and promotional activities can influence non-susceptible never smokers to start the process of becoming addicted to cigarettes."
      We do not claim that advertising is the only, or even the most significant, factor in the decisions of young people to start smoking, but it is an important one. As a result, we believe that there is clear evidence of a link between tobacco consumption and advertising, and that public health will benefit from a comprehensive ban as proposed in the Bill.
      David Taylor: Would my hon. Friend care to extend the social groups on which tobacco advertising has an impact from the young to those in manual occupations? The evidence shows that the highest levels of tobacco advertising are in areas of low income and high unemployment. The fact that 34 per cent. of men and 29 per cent. of women in manual occupations, compared with 23 per cent. of men and 22 per cent. women in non-manual occupations, continue to smoke shows that the tobacco companies recognise that their advertising reinforces the commitment to smoking.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Before the Minister replies, I hope that she will not be too tempted by the remarks of the hon. Member for North-West Leicestershire (David Taylor). I remind her that she is replying to a debate on new clause 2, and I hope that she does not anticipate the speech that she may like to make if she catches my eye on Third Reading.
      Ms Blears: Certainly not, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend made an important point, and I am sure that we shall return to it.
      Quantification of the effects of a ban is not an exact science, but I think that we are about right in estimating that the provisions of the Bill could lead to a 2.5 per cent. reduction in smoking prevalence. We will keep the legislation under review in case circumstances change, just as we do for all legislation, but it is not necessary to prescribe that in the Bill.
      I want to deal briefly with the issue raised by the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton). He referred to the sunset clause in the Electronic Communications Act 2000. The circumstances of this Bill are entirely different from those in that Act. The sunset clause in part I of the 2000 Act relates to the registering of providers of cryptography and confidentiality services. It provides that, while there is a voluntary agreement that is working well and fulfilling the Government's objectives, there is no need for the legislative provisions in part I. The key point is whether the voluntary code is fulfilling the Government's objectives. I draw to his attention the comments of Joy de Bayer, the tobacco control co-ordinator at the World Bank, who said:
      "We know what works and what doesn't. Voluntary codes have proved to be a failure. A World Bank—WHO study…found that interventions like comprehensive advertisement bans and price increases have a measurable and sustained impact on decreased tobacco use."
      Tim Loughton: In that case, can the Minister explain how the United Kingdom produced one of the largest falls in the prevalence of smoking up till 1997 in the context of only a voluntary ban?
      5.45 pm
      Ms Blears: Again, a combination of factors is involved: price increases, fiscal measures and health promotion measures. All were no doubt instrumental in achieving the dramatic reduction in smoking, which I hope that we all welcome. The hon. Gentleman is as aware as I am of the fact that that reduction flattened out in the 1990s and that, therefore, there is a need—
      Tim Loughton: It has gone back up.
      Ms Blears: Exactly. The hon. Gentleman makes my point for me. There is a need to take firmer and more stringent measures, because voluntary codes simply do not work. That is why this situation is different from that involving the 2000 Act.
      We shall, of course, continue to commission research on smoking prevalence. That is one of the Government's top priorities in improving public health. I therefore ask the House to reject the new clause.
      Tim Loughton: First, I welcome the Minister, luckily for her late in the day, to consideration of the legislation, which has been round the houses many, many times. Many of us have spent much time examining it in Committee.
      I was optimistic when the Minister began by saying that she had some sympathy with our motives, but she subsequently lost that sympathy and, predictably, her comments were rather one-sided. Of course she referred to certain reports, but she did not mention the KPMG report and a host of others that counter much of the so-called evidence that she produced. Of course the fall in the prevalence of smoking—such a success up to 1997—is down to a combination of factors, but the situation has worsened since then.
      That worsening is largely down to smuggling, as my hon. Friends have said, but that does not counter the argument as to why the Government did not go back to the industry to try to negotiate a much tougher voluntary agreement. That was never tried, so the Minister should not say that it would not have worked—the Government did not even bother. If a voluntary agreement had worked, we would not need the Bill now, because an advertising ban would have been introduced voluntarily five years ago. That is an important point.
      The Minister made an interesting comment in response to the accurate observation of my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Richard Ottaway) that a lot of the Bill is woolly. Clause 10, if it is not woolly, is certainly slightly shaggy, as it is open to all sorts of interpretation, which, I am afraid, she and her hon. Friends seem content to leave up to the courts. I am disappointed that the debate has again been sidetracked by the red herrings involving the horrors of breast and lung cancer. We all agree that smoking kills and that it does terrible things to our bodies, which we do not want to happen, but those are not the points at issue.
      We have heard some interesting contributions, but the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Hopkins) was again unable to answer my point about the success of the voluntary ban. He wants more extreme measures, including banning price-cutting. The obvious implication of that, I am afraid, disappointing though it
      60
      might be, is that he wants the Government to put up tax. The obvious implication of that would be yet more smuggling and yet more cheap fags being sold outside school playgrounds. We cannot have such a wish list and say, "It is going to happen."
      John Robertson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
      Tim Loughton: I will continue, but I shall mention the hon. Gentleman in a moment.
      The hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris), in wholly typical form, spoke in support of the intentions behind the new clause and then, as he did at every instance on those few occasions when he turned up in Committee, said he would vote against. He then made the bizarre suggestion that we should rely on research from the tobacco industry, which will no doubt be producing research along with everybody else.
      The hon. Gentleman also questioned whether we have achieved a full sunset clause, which is what I want, but I had trouble getting one on the selection list. Indeed, I had trouble getting new clause 2 on the selection list, which is why it has taken a somewhat diluted form and why it would give the Secretary of State far greater flexibility. That is what the Minister is asking for.
      The point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) is right: we should not treat the banning of tobacco advertising as the panacea for the ills of smoking. It is but a component, perhaps, but that case has not been proven.
      The hon. Member for Glasgow, Anniesland (John Robertson) again fell into the trap of saying that it is a cheek for anyone to go through the due processes of this place in scrutinising a Bill to make it better and force the Government to justify why they are trying to ban something. That is all we are about. It is not impertinent to want to question the mechanics of the Bill. It would be absurd to say that just because he was not in favour of capital punishment, he was in some way pro-murder. It is entirely the same absurd contention, so please can we accept that we are all anti-smoking but there are many ways of doing it and we are not convinced of the evidence? The Minister started by saying that we should deal on an evidential basis.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Ruffley) made some helpful points, not least that we do not see the downside of the new clause. which in no way undermines the ban that the Bill would bring about.
      Mr. Bill Tynan: If, because this new clause were accepted, someone died of, say, lung cancer or became a smoker, would that be a price worth paying?
      Tim Loughton: One would have to prove that there was a direct link and no one has been able to prove one. Equally, if it were proven that the Act increased the prevalence of smoking because companies resorted to price-cutting and therefore young children were more susceptible and better able to get hold of cigarettes, the hon. Gentleman would be guilty of supporting a measure that had resulted in the deaths, or lung cancer, of those children. It works both ways.

      61
      The hon. Member for North Tayside (Pete Wishart) asked what the logic of our approach was but, more reasonably, appreciated where we are coming from and that we are all trying to achieve the same ends. The logic that we are trying to promote is that we should all have available proper research to justify the ban on an ongoing basis. The make-up of the committee is something for the Secretary of State to propose to the House and for us to scrutinise at the time.
      The hon. Gentleman mentioned the successes in other countries that have instituted a ban but I repeat that the biggest fall in the prevalence of smoking in just about any European or major western country occurred in this country up to 1997, when there were voluntary agreements with the industry, rather than bans on advertising or any other particular aspect.
      New clause 2 is an innocuous measure that improves the Bill and its acceptability to Conservative Members and, I hope, all reasonable people. If after three years the research shows incontrovertibly that the measures are a success and that the ban on tobacco advertising has seriously affected the prevalence of smoking and reduced it, particularly among younger people, I will be the first to hold up my hand and embrace it. We do not have to wait 10 years. As the Minister said, it might be onerous to have reviews after 10 years. In a few years, we might be able to show whether the Act and its implications had worked. That is all we are asking for, without even the compulsion of the trigger mechanism of a full sunset clause. We are not trying to undermine the ban. We are certainly not trying to promote smoking—anything but.
      This is a reasonable new clause. We think that it improves the Bill, that it will be much more acceptable to everyone if the new clause were passed and that the Govt should be forced to have proper research at their fingertips, available to all of us. On that basis, I urge hon. Members to vote for it.
      Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
      The House divided: Ayes 120, Noes 329.

      Division No. 324]

      [5:54 pm

      AYES

      Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

      Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

      Ancram, rh Michael

      Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

      Djanogly, Jonathan

      Bacon, Richard

      Duncan, Alan (Rutland & Melton)

      Baldry, Tony

      Duncan, Peter (Galloway & U Nithsdale)

      Baron, John (Billericay)

      Bellingham, Henry

      Duncan Smith, rh Iain

      Bercow, John

      Evans, Nigel

      Beresford, Sir Paul

      Fabricant, Michael

      Blunt, Crispin

      Fallon, Michael

      Boswell, Tim

      Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)

      Brazier, Julian

      Browning, Mrs Angela

      Flight, Howard

      Burns, Simon

      Flook, Adrian

      Butterfill, John

      Forth, rh Eric

      Cash, William

      Francois, Mark

      Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

      Gillen, Mrs Cheryl

      Goodman, Paul

      Chope, Christopher

      Gray, James

      Clappison, James

      Green, Damian (Ashford)

      Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Greenway, John

      Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

      Grieve, Dominic

      Collins, Tim

      Hague, rh William

      Conway, Derek

      Hammond, Philip

      Cormack, Sir Patrick

      Hawkins, Nick

      62

      Hayes, John

      Randall, John

      Heald, Oliver

      Redwood, rh John

      Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

      Robathan, Andrew

      Hendry, Charles

      Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)

      Hoban, Mark

      Hogg, rh Douglas

      Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

      Horam, John

      Rosindell, Andrew

      Howard, rh Michael

      Ruffley, David

      Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

      Sayeed, Jonathan

      Jack, rh Michael

      Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian

      Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

      Simmonds, Mark

      Johnson, Boris (Henley)

      Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)

      Key, Robert

      Soames, Nicholas

      Kirkbride, Miss Julie

      Spelman, Mrs Caroline

      Lansley, Andrew

      Spicer, Sir Michael

      Letwin, rh Oliver

      Spring, Richard

      Lewis, Dr. Julian (New F E)

      Stanley, rh Sir John

      Liddell-Grainger, Ian

      Steen, Anthony

      Lidington, David

      Swire, Hugo

      Lilley, rh Peter

      Syms, Robert

      Loughton, Tim

      Tapsell, Sir Peter

      McIntosh, Miss Anne

      Taylor, John (Solihull)

      Mackay, rh Andrew

      Trend, Michael

      Maclean, rh David

      Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

      McLoughlin, Patrick

      Tyrie, Andrew

      Malins, Humfrey

      Viggers, Peter

      Maples, John

      Waterson, Nigel

      Maude, rh Francis

      Watkinson, Angela

      May, Mrs Theresa

      Whittingdale, John

      Moss, Malcolm

      Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann

      Norman, Archie

      Willetts, David

      O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

      Wilshire, David

      Osborne, George (Tatton)

      Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

      Ottaway, Richard

      Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)

      Page, Richard

      Paice, James

      Yeo, Tim

      Paterson, Owen

      Pickles, Eric

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Portillo, rh Michael

      Chris Grayling and

      Prisk, Mark

      Mr. Desmond Swayne

      NOES

      Ainger, Nick

      Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Alexander, Douglas

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Allan, Richard

      Bryant, Chris

      Allen, Graham

      Buck, Ms Karen

      Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)

      Burden, Richard

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)

      Burgon, Colin

      Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary

      Burnett, John

      Atherton, Ms Candy

      Burnham, Andy

      Atkins, Charlotte

      Burstow, Paul

      Austin, John

      Cable, Dr. Vincent

      Bailey, Adrian

      Cairns, David

      Banks, Tony

      Calton, Mrs Patsy

      Barnes, Harry

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Battle, John

      Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)

      Bayley, Hugh

      Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

      Beard, Nigel

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Begg, Miss Anne

      Challen, Colin

      Bell, Stuart

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      Benn, Hilary

      Chaytor, David

      Benton, Joe (Bootle)

      Betts, Clive

      Clapham, Michael

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

      Blunkett, rh David

      Clark, hon. Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

      Boateng, rh Paul

      Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Bradley, Peter (The wrekin)

      Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

      Bradshaw, Ben

      Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Breed, Colin

      Clelland, David

      Brennan, Kevin

      Coaker, Vernon

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

      Coffey, Ms Ann

      63

      Cohen, Harry

      Heppell, John

      Coleman, Iain

      Heyes, David

      Colman, Tony

      Hill, Keith

      Connarty, Michael

      Hinchliffe, David

      Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

      Hodge, Margaret

      Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)

      Hoey, Kate

      Cooper, Yvette

      Hoon, rh Geoffrey

      Cotter, Brian

      Hope, Phil

      Cousins, Jim

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Cranston, hon. Ross

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

      Crausby, David

      Cruddas, Jon

      Hoyle, Lindsay

      Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)

      Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)

      Cummings, John

      Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

      Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Hutton, rh John

      Dalyell, Tam

      Iddon, Dr. Brian

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Illsley, Eric

      Davidson, Ian

      Irranca-Davies, Huw

      Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

      Dawson, Hilton

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

      Dhanda, Parmjit

      Jamieson, David

      Dobbin, Jim

      Jenkins, Brian

      Dobson, rh Frank

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Donohoe, Brian H.

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      Doran, Frank

      Joyce, Eric

      Doughty, Sue

      Kaufman, rh Gerald

      Dowd, Jim

      Keeble, Ms Sally

      Drown, Ms Julia

      Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)

      Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

      Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)

      Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Keetch, Paul

      Edwards, Huw

      Kemp, Fraser

      Efford, Clive

      Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness W)

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Ennis, Jeff

      Kidney, David

      Etherington, Bill

      King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

      Ewing, Annabelle

      King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

      Farrelly, Paul

      Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

      Kirkwood, Archy

      Fitzpatrick, Jim

      Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

      Flint, Caroline

      Lamb, Norman

      Flynn, Paul

      Laws, David

      Follett, Barbara

      Laxton, Bob

      Foster, rh Derek (Bishop Auckland)

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Lepper, David

      Foster, Don (Bath)

      Leslie, Christopher

      Foster, Michael (Worcester)

      Levitt, Tom

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

      Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

      Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

      George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)

      Lloyd, Tony

      Gerrard, Neil

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Gibson, Dr. Ian

      Love, Andrew

      Gidley, Sandra

      Lucas, Ian

      Gilroy, Linda

      Luke, Iain

      Goggins, Paul

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

      McCafferty, Chris

      Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Grogan, John

      MacDonald, Calum

      Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

      MacDougall, John

      Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

      McFall, John

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      McIsaac, Shona

      Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

      McKechin, Ann

      Hancock, Mike

      MacShane, Denis

      Hanson, David

      McWalter, Tony

      Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)

      McWilliam, John

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      Mahon, Mrs Alice

      Healey, John

      Mallaber, Judy

      Heath, David

      Mendelson, rh Peter

      Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

      Mann, John

      Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

      Marris, Rob

      Hepburn, Stephen

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

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      Marshall, David (Shettleston)

      Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Singh, Marsha

      Marshall-Andrews, hon. Robert

      Skinner, Dennis

      Martlew, Eric

      Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)

      Merron, Gillian

      Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)

      Michael, rh Alun

      Miliband, David

      Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

      Miller, Andrew

      Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

      Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

      Moffatt, Laura

      Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

      Mole, Chris

      Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

      Moonie, Dr. Lewis

      Moore, Michael

      Soley, Clive

      Moran, Margaret

      Southworth, Helen

      Morley, Elliot

      Speller, rh John

      Mountford, Kali

      Spink, Bob

      Mudie, George

      Steinberg. Gerry

      Mullin, Chris

      Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)

      Munn, Ms Meg

      Naysmith, Dr Doug

      Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

      Norris, Dan

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      Oaten, Mark

      Stoate, Dr. Howard

      O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

      Stringer, Graham

      O'Hara, Edward

      Stuart, Ms Gisela

      Olner, Bill

      Stunell, Andrew

      Organ, Diana

      Tami, Mark

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)

      Owen, Albert

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Palmer, Dr. Nick

      Taylor, Matthew (Truro & St. Austell)

      Picking, Anne

      Pickthall, Colin

      Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

      Pike, Peter

      Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

      Plaskitt, James

      Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

      Pollard, Kerry

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Pond, Chris

      Thurso, John

      Pope, Greg

      Tipping, Paddy

      Pound, Stephen

      Touhig, Don

      Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

      Trickett, Jon

      Truswell, Paul

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Primarolo, rh Dawn

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Pugh, Dr. John

      Tynan, Bill

      Purchase, Ken

      Vaz, Keith

      Purnell, James

      Ward, Claire

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Rapson, Syd

      Watson, Tom

      Reed, Andy

      Watts, David

      Rendel, David

      Webb, Steve

      Robertson, Angus (Moray)

      Weir, Michael

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      White, Brian

      Whitehead, Dr. Alan

      Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)

      Rooney, Terry

      Williams Mrs Betty (Conwy)

      Ruane, Chris

      Williams Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Ruddock, Joan

      Winnick, David

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      Wishart, Pete

      Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)

      Woolas, Phil

      Ryan, Joan

      Worthington, Tony

      Salter, Martin

      Wray, James

      Sanders, Adrian

      Wright Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)

      Sarwar, Mohammad

      Savidge, Malcolm

      Wright David (Telford)

      Sawford, Phil

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Shaw, Jonathan

      Younger-Ross, Richard

      Sheerman, Barry

      Sheridan, Jim

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Shipley, Ms Debra

      Mr. Ivor Caplin and

      Short, rh Clare

      Mr. Bill Rammell

      Question accordingly negatived.
      Bill reported, without amendment.
      Order for Third Reading read.
      6.12 pm
      Ms Blears: I beg to move. That the Bill be now read the Third time.
      After that rather surprisingly swift canter through the rest of the agenda, I am delighted that, at this early stage of the evening, we have arrived at the Third Reading of what I believe to be a tremendously important, significant and, dare I say, historic Bill.
      The Bill has been extensively debated in Committee; I was going to say that it was extensively debated today, but clearly that is not the case. No amendments have been made to the Bill at either stage. That is not surprising as, first, it has had the benefit of lengthy debates in another place, where several amendments were made. I pay tribute to Lord Clement-Jones for his resourcefulness in promoting the Bill there and taking it through as a private Member's Bill. Secondly, the Bill is of course largely the same measure as the Government Bill of the same name that was before the House in the previous Parliament, when it was improved in a number of ways.
      It is worth repeating just what this Bill will do and why it is necessary. It will ban tobacco advertising and sponsorship in this country in order to protect public health and to protect children. Smoking eventually kills one out of every two smokers, 120,000 of our fellow citizens every year. Advertising of tobacco products promotes a deadly product. We know, too, that children tend to smoke the most heavily advertised brands. We cannot turn the clock back and legislate tobacco out of existence, even if we wanted to, but we can act to help the majority of current smokers who want to stop and, as importantly, to control the marketing of this lethal product so that fewer people take up this lethal habit in the first place.
      The evidence is clear and demonstrates the importance of a ban on tobacco advertising. We have talked about the Smee report, commissioned by the Department of Health in 1992 under the previous Government, which examined international evidence from Norway, Finland, Canada and New Zealand. Smee concluded:
      "in each case the banning of advertising was followed by a fall in smoking on a scale which cannot reasonably be attributed to other factors".
      The report was commissioned by the previous Conservative Government, but we do not need to rely on it alone. The World Bank's report "Curbing the Epidemic" said:
      "A recent study of 22 high-income countries based on data from 1970 to 1992 concluded that comprehensive bans on cigarette advertising and promotion can reduce smoking, but more limited partial bans have little or no effect."
      The evidence, then, is that banning tobacco advertising does reduce consumption, but only if the ban is comprehensive. That is a very important point. It explains why the Bill introduces a comprehensive ban on tobacco advertising and promotion, with very limited and tightly drawn exceptions. We know that only if we introduce such a ban will we make a real impact on smoking consumption and prevalence. It has been shown in other countries that where there is a ban only on direct advertising, and not indirect advertising, the effect is lessened.
      We have estimated that the impact of this ban will be to reduce smoking consumption and prevalence by around 2.5 per cent. in the longer term. Some people
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      may think this a small reward for the banning of advertising of a legal product. However, we estimate that a 2.5 per cent. reduction in consumption could, in the longer term, save 3,000 lives a year. Even in the shorter term, it could save up to 1,600 lives a year. Every single life saved means less grief, heartache and sorrow for people and families. It is a prize worth having. The Bill will make a huge contribution to creating a healthier nation.
      The tobacco industry has consistently claimed that its advertising merely affects market share of different brands. I do not think that that is a credible position, and the evidence from Smee and others undermines it. The Select Committee on Health looked in detail at the industry's marketing strategies. It had access to evidence that had not previously been in the public domain, and that evidence was incredibly revealing. The former chairman of the board of the advertisers McCann-Erickson, which handled $20 million in tobacco account sales, said:
      "The cigarette industry has been artfully maintaining that cigarette advertising has nothing to do with total sales. This is complete and utter nonsense."
      Those are the words of someone who was involved intimately in the advertising of tobacco products. He went on to say:
      "I am always amused by the suggestion that advertising, a function that has been shown to increase consumption of virtually every other product, somehow miraculously fails to work for tobacco products."
      That illustrates the naivety and disingenuousness of those who seek to present the case that there is little evidence that an advertising ban will lead to a reduction in smoking. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Mr. Hopkins) has said that the advertising companies spend in excess of £100 million a year in this country, so they must believe that that money is well spent in terms of investing for their future profits.
      The industry claims that it only wishes adults to smoke. Let me accept that claim for the sake of argument. However, the evidence is that, regardless of that avowed intention, 14 and 15-year-old children see and react to the industry's advertising just as much as 16-year-olds. An interesting exchange of views took place in the Health Select Committee, where witnesses from advertising companies gave evidence. They were pressed to explain the distinction in an advertising brief, whereby they could pitch an advert at young adults and avoid it having an effect on 14 and 15-year-old children.
      Despite their valiant attempts to make that distinction to the Select Committee, the people involved in the advertising pitches and briefs—the creatives involved in drawing up advertising campaigns—were forced to admit, after being pressed intensely on the issue, that it would be difficult to provide advertisements aimed at young adults that did not also appeal to the fantasies of teenagers. Therefore, that evidence is extremely important.
      Once one starts smoking, it is very hard to stop: the Royal College of Physicians' report, "Nicotine Addiction in Britain", made it clear that nicotine addiction is about as addictive as heroin and cocaine. It is therefore a very serious issue.
      The Bill gives Ministers a number of regulation-making powers. That is deliberate, because we wish to ensure that we can keep up in legislative terms with any

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      developments that occur. We have said that some of those powers will be kept in reserve in case there are abuses or problems that need to be sorted out. However, we have said all along that we intend to make regulations as quickly as possible on point of sale advertising, brand sharing and transitional arrangements for sponsorship. We issued a consultation document in August and are seeking views now on the detail of those regulations. The consultation period ends on 15 November. I commend the consultation documents to hon. Members, because they go into the regulations in great depth and illustrate the Government's determination to ensure that we have good and effective regulations in that area.
      We have already said that we reserve our right to bring in regulations in relation to displays of products. If we feel that manufacturers are beginning to abuse displays of products, we will not hesitate to introduce regulations to try to control that activity. I do not wish to be vindictive in pursuing the tobacco companies, but the history of the industry shows that the companies have been ingenious in finding other ways to advertise and promote tobacco products in places that have introduced restrictions. Those other methods include sponsorship and brand sharing—or brand stretching, as it is increasingly called. The debate in the other place gave some interesting examples of brand sharing. There is, for example, a Benson and Hedges bistro in Kuala Lumpur, which is there to promote the Benson and Hedges brand. Before the bistro was opened, the Benson and Hedges market share had declined dramatically. After the bistro opened, the brand's trading position was secured. The person running the bistro said that he wanted to be "smoker-friendly" and that people associated cigarettes with a cup of coffee. He said:
      "After all, they are both drugs of a kind."
      I found that very revealing.
      Mr. Hopkins: My hon. Friend points out that coffee is also a drug, but does she agree that recent evidence suggests that coffee drinking can be beneficial, unlike cigarette smoking?
      Ms Blears: As a confirmed tea drinker, I am well aware of the health benefits of the antioxidants in tea and if coffee has similar effects, I look forward to seeing that evidence. My hon. Friend makes the serious point that tobacco is a dangerous and lethal substance that has led to the deaths of thousands of people—in fact, of millions of people worldwide.
      Baroness Jay gave some interesting examples of the use of cartoon characters to promote cigarettes in the United States. Joe Camel, a character promoted in connection with Camel cigarettes, had a high recognition factor with young children. By the age of six, children recognised Joe Camel as much as they did Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck. That is very worrying in relation to the provisions on brand sharing and brand stretching.
      We have also introduced consultation on the transitional arrangements for sponsorship to ensure that once advertising is outlawed the money does not go on extensive and glamorous sponsorship arrangements.
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      We want to outlaw sponsorship for all sports by 2003 and for global sports by 2006. After that date, no sponsorship will be allowed.
      Some hon. Members have raised concerns about the ability of companies to continue trading in what are legal products, but the Bill does not compel people who want to carry on smoking to stop. Smokers will continue to be free to contact suppliers and request information about the products available. It would not be right to allow suppliers, even specialist tobacconists, to send out tobacco advertisements to people who had bought tobacco products from them in the past when many of those people are likely to be among the 70 per cent. of smokers who say that they want to give up. We want to ensure that those people are not bombarded with regular advertisements so that every time that they resolve to give up they are undermined by the next lot of glossy leaflets and special offers that come through the post to entice them to carry on smoking.
      The issue of corporate sponsorship by tobacco companies has been raised on several occasions. The Bill does not prevent a tobacco company from giving money to support an event or activity, as long as the tobacco company's products are not given any promotion in return. If a tobacco company wishes to support the ballet, the opera or other artistic activities, it will be entitled to do so, as long as the purpose or effect is not to promote its tobacco products. It is conceivable that some advertisements linked to the corporate sponsorship of events could have the effect of promoting tobacco products even if they do not mention the name of specific products. If that does happen then the parties involved might be liable to be prosecuted under the Bill. Companies will need to be vigilant about the kind of corporate sponsorship that they undertake in the future.
      It has been suggested that the Bill will impede the freedom of the tobacco industry to develop products that are less harmful to health. However, we have seen what happened in the past when people were encouraged to smoke particular brands on the basis that they were light or mild. We are supporting action to outlaw those terms, because experience has shown that they were not helpful and that the best way to confront the health risks of tobacco is to stop smoking. Descriptions such as "light" or "mild" did encourage people to take up those products. Descriptions of products as "low tar" made people think that they were safer and less harmful.
      Experiments showed that if the smoke from those cigarettes was extracted by a machine, it was less harmful, but people who smoked them changed their smoking habits. They would inhale more deeply or cover up the ventilation filters on the cigarettes to ensure that they got an amount of nicotine that maintained the drug in their system at the level to which their bodies were accustomed. People might have been smoking lower tar products, but the way in which they smoked them meant that the harmful effects on their health were just as great. Indeed, the adoption of low tar products often meant that people made no effort to give up. That marketing was, therefore, more harmful than helpful.
      If new tobacco products appear which are genuinely less harmful than those now available, we will consider how they should be marketed, but it would be wrong to give the tobacco industry carte blanche to market them

      69
      as it sees fit. We would be failing in our duty if we were to allow that, and that is why it is right that the Bill will impose a comprehensive ban on tobacco advertising.
      The Bill is part of our broader strategy to tackle smoking. Smoking is the biggest cause of early death in this country. It causes one in seven deaths from heart disease and 85 per cent. of deaths from lung cancer. It causes cancer of the mouth, the larynx, the oesophagus, the bladder, the kidneys, the stomach and the pancreas. It is one of the principal causes of the health gap between rich and poor. Some 120,000 of our fellow citizens die each year from smoking-related diseases. The loss and misery is shared by their loved ones. Those are needless deaths caused by an industry that hides the truth from consumers.
      Tobacco is the only legal product that kills one in two people who use it. The Government are determined to tackle this epidemic. That is why we have made a commitment to reduce the number of smoking-related deaths. That is why we have introduced the best smoking cessation services in the world. And that is why we will ban tobacco advertising and promotion. I call on Members from both sides of the House to join us to support this Bill which will help to save lives.
      6.29 pm
      Tim Loughton: I do not demur from the Minister's final comments and her grisly catalogue of horrible diseases, conditions and implications that are caused by cancers linked to smoking. I repeat that smoking is a killer and we want less of it, but that was not the point of contention between us in the Bill.
      The Minister said that she was surprised to reach Third Reading a little more quickly than she had anticipated. I do not think that she should be surprised, given that new clause 2 made it clear that we were not trying to undermine the Bill or the ban that it introduces by the amendments that we have tried to make to it. We think that the Bill is flawed and that it is bad law in some cases, but we do not disagree with the wish to do anything to deter people from smoking. We are not convinced, however, that the Bill is directly linked to that end.
      The Bill has been around for quite a long time. The Minister comes to it rather late in the day—some of us have been with it longer, in the previous Parliament. The Bill was lost before the last election; it was almost scuppered by the Germans over the summer but survived to come before us this evening. In fact, the Bill is before us because a private Member of the upper House reincarnated it earlier in the year, so for all the Minister's proud words, the Government are not responsible for it.
      I repeat my earlier point that there is evidence to suggest that if, soon after the Government came to power in 1997, they had gone to the tobacco industry for a tougher voluntary agreement, which had been successful in reducing the prevalence of smoking until then, the Bill might not have been necessary, because tobacco advertising would have disappeared, by voluntary agreement, five years ago. The Minister cannot say otherwise and neither can other hon. Members who question that. It is a shame that we have had to go through all these processes and false dawns five years on to achieve what the Government said that they wanted to achieve in their 1997 election manifesto.
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      It is also slightly odd that only now, five and a half years on, are we in the midst of the consultation exercise on the draft regulations accompanying the Bill that I pulled off the internet. With great respect to the hon. Lady, I think that members of the Committee would have expected to be sent a copy of them when they came out in the middle of August because they were relevant to the work of the Committee and are relevant to Report and Third Reading. It is a shame that that did not happen.
      We are united, on both sides of the House, in trying to achieve the same ends—to deter people from smoking and especially to deter young people from taking up a foul pursuit. We all want to improve public health; the cost of unhealthy life styles to the national health service and to us all is enormous, and that includes people who choose, against all the advice, to continue smoking.
      It is rather arrogant of Labour Members to suggest that in wishing to scrutinise the Bill, Conservative Members are somehow pro-smoking. I have always approached the Bill with an open mind. I am a committed non-smoker: I have hassled my father about smoking over many decades, without success, and frown when people smoke in my presence. The Government have not had the courage of their convictions to go the whole way and ban smoking outright; indeed, I do not think that anybody would agree with that action. However, the implication of many of tonight's contributions is that smoking itself should be banned, not only the advertising of its products.
      Our approach to the Bill over the weeks, months and years of our involvement has been to ask whether it will have the desired effect or be counter-productive. I repeat my comments about the measures on price competition being far more dangerous than price-cutting in inducing young people in particular to smoke. As for the loss of £130 million worth of advertising revenue, I said on Second Reading that I would be in favour of measures that obliged cigarette advertisers to cover virtually the whole billboard with grisly warnings about smoking killing and leading to long, lingering deaths, thereby leaving only a small space to advertise the product, in whatever obscure form. That would be an effective way of getting £130 million of free advertising for a health promotion campaign. There are other ways of doing it, but we need to tackle the legislation, as we have done all the way through, on the basis that, whether we like it or not, it remains legitimate and legal to smoke, produce and sell tobacco and that, however much we may hate it, many of our fellow citizens, for their own good reasons, continue to do so.
      The Bill, along with other public health promotions that the Government quite rightly carry out, will not induce the tobacco manufacturers to shut up shop and go home. The Government must justify a ban by saying whether it will work in practice, whether it is watertight and whether it is fair and proportionate. For all the reports that the Minister rightly trots out, other reports contradict those findings, and they are non-conclusive. Other countries have tried tobacco advertising bans or other forms of obligatory legislation, yet smoking prevalence in the United Kingdom fell faster than in virtually every other country in the west, for a whole raft of reasons, when a voluntary agreement with the

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      industry was in place. The Government did not seek to renegotiate a voluntary agreement with the industry. Had they done so, the result might have been different.
      Mr. Andrew Miller: If the hon. Gentleman's argument were followed to its logical conclusion, no company would spend any of its revenue on advertising. He has outlined a set of circumstances in which the Department of Health could make gains out of tobacco advertising. Surely he must agree that advertising works, and that in these circumstances it should be banned.
      Tim Loughton: I was simply giving an example of how such advertising could be used: we have not agreed on what effect advertising has. We covered all the schools of thought about brand switching and so on before the hon. Gentleman appeared in the Chamber. My idea was that advertising would be turned against the person paying the advertising bill in the interests of public health promotion. It might be a fanciful idea, but it was worth investigating. However, the Government chose not to follow a voluntary route and I think that they may have missed a trick.
      Mr. Hopkins: I am interested in the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that a billboard should be used to advertise the terrible effects of smoking. If that depressed cigarette smoking and cigarette sales, would the tobacco companies carry on with it?
      Tim Loughton: Probably not, in which case this legislation would not be necessary. We would have the desired effect and everybody would be happy. We are all trying to achieve the same thing.
      Passing the Bill without definitive evidence requires a leap of faith. The regulatory impact assessment gives a fairly wide spread of 0 per cent. to 5 per cent. as the likely reduction in smoking that such a ban will bring about, and the Government have plumped for the mid-range figure of 2.5 per cent. As one of my hon. Friends said earlier, that is fairly woolly science. The Conservatives are far more concerned about the many other practical measures that the Government should pursue far more aggressively, and give greater priority than this one piece of legislation.
      The prevalence of smuggling is probably the single largest factor that has led to the increase in smoking over the past five years. The Government need to tackle that more seriously. They should clamp down with more vigour on the illicit selling of bootleg cigarettes in the vicinity of school playgrounds. Flogging bootleg cigarettes from car boots should be better policed. I would conjecture that a combination of such measures could be more effective in decreasing smoking, especially among young people, than the Bill will be.
      The Government could also tackle the influence of product placement. We have all seen the weekend report that the cast of "EastEnders" and "Coronation Street" are more widely recognised than most members of the Cabinet. Soaps, like the rest of television and the media, have an enormous influence on people's observations
      72
      and habits, yet time and again we see brands of alcohol and cigarettes appearing in socially acceptable scenes. What are the Government doing about that?
      Judy Mallaber: I am slightly puzzled. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the logic of his argument is that advertising does work? If showing a brand of alcohol or cigarettes on a soap affects people, that means that it is an effective form of advertising. Has he not proved that advertising works?
      Tim Loughton: If that were the case, according to the hon. Lady's logic, the tobacco companies would not have to pay for any of their advertising. My point was that having famous actors smoke cigarettes in a socially acceptable context is harmful and has an effect on people who want to emulate those in virtual reality television shows.
      Pete Wishart: I agree with the hon. Gentleman; we are all aware of the dangers of product placement—but would it not have been more helpful if he and his colleagues had tabled some amendments to combat product placement, rather than making innocuous suggestions?
      Tim Loughton: I am talking about a far greater issue than simply amending the Bill. Of course, when cigarettes appear in soaps there are no health warnings, whereas adverts and close-ups of the products, have severe health warnings attached. That is another difference.
      We all agree that those things are not helpful. The Government could be examining them more closely, yet they are considering, almost exclusively, the banning of tobacco advertising as the panacea to reduce smoking.
      As many of us said earlier in the passage of the Bill, another aspect that the Government could be tackling is the European Union's continuing subsidising of tobacco production by some £600 million a year. When we, rightly, are taking all the public health promotion measures that we can to reduce smoking, it is nonsense that as taxpayers we are still subsidising the tobacco farmers in southern Europe who produce the vile weed, to the tune of £600 million a year. The Bill would have greater credibility if the Government were taking that problem more seriously and pursuing it more vigorously.
      In passing the Bill we are taking a large leap of faith. We chose to scrutinise it in Committee as fully as we could in the time available, which was not nearly long enough. We were contemptuously questioned about why we had to go through the "rigmarole" of scrutinising the Bill, although on our side of the Standing Committee there were completely new Members, who had not been involved with the legislation when it was scrutinised previously in the House of Lords and in this House.
      We scrutinised the Bill in Committee without any help from the Liberal Democrats, who followed the Government hook, line and sinker, and tabled no amendments. On their rare appearances, they always voted with the Government.

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      Ministers in this House have resisted any attempt to amend the Bill, despite the fact that it had wider implications than those for tobacco products.
      Sandra Gidley: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that as the Bill was introduced by Lord Clement-Jones and we felt that he had got it about right, there was no need for us to table a vast number of amendments, especially as the Bill had already had a Committee stage in this House, albeit in another Parliament?
      Tim Loughton: The hon. Lady says that she did not feel the need to table a vast number of amendments; in fact she did not table a single amendment in the entire Committee stage, and on her rare appearances she seemed content blindly to accept the Government line. I had not realised that Lord Clement-Jones had achieved such godlike status.
      Of course there are things in the Bill that need to be questioned. That is why we spent a long time in Committee raising questions, many of which were not properly answered. That is what a Committee stage is all about. I fear that there are still many unanswered questions, as the questions that my hon. Friends and I asked were all greeted with a look of glazed indifference by the former Minister responsible, the hon. Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), who is now the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, but who is still here today. She seemed to think that it was a cheek for anybody to be going through the proper parliamentary processes of scrutinising the Bill and daring to find fault with it—but find fault with it we did, and she gave only a few assurances in response.
      The catch-all response, which made us most sceptical, was that it was up to the courts to decide on the definitions and interpretations in the Bill. Apparently, it was not for us to define what the law was about; we were to leave it to the courts, for lots of lawyers to argue about among themselves. That is surely unsatisfactory. The House should legislate to provide a high degree of certainty, so that people know precisely where they stand and do not have to rely on courts, long drawn-out legal processes and highly paid lawyers. With this Bill, that has not been the case.
      I shall concentrate on the terms of the Bill rather than the horrors of what smoking does; we all agree about that, and we can bank it. However, in the context of clause 1, we did not resolve in Committee the definition of what constitutes an advertisement. I appreciate the spirit of that part of the Bill, but at the end of our deliberations it was still not clear whether an advertisement included the tobacco product itself, its packaging, invoices and letterheads relating to the selling of the product, business signs used inside premises, or the effects of brand sharing, Dunhill shops and so on.
      The Minister went to some lengths to avoid such questions, saying that she did not want to open loopholes. However, she was unable to define what some of those loopholes were, despite the fact that previous legislation, such as the Consumer Credit Act 1974, the Medicines Act 1968 and the Gaming Act 1968, contains proper enforceable definitions of what constitutes an advertisement.
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      Will the Bill cover smoking avoidance products? It would be nonsense if it did, but no clear assurance was given that the various nicotine substitute products that help to wean people off tobacco would not fall foul of it.
      There were many unanswered questions about the impact on internet communications about tobacco products, which are beyond the reach of UK legislation. Questions about unwitting printers and publishers of magazines and newspapers in which tobacco advertisements appear were also unanswered. There was a fine line with regard to trade publications, whether they were available to the public through subscription or off the shelf, and whether they fell foul of the provisions. Under the Bill, will shareholders in tobacco companies still be able to get information about the advertising campaigns for products promoted by the companies in which they have invested?
      Also questioned was the role of specialist tobacco businesses—legitimate businesses with clearly targeted ranges of specialist adult clients that play no role in encouraging children to take up smoking, but which could be seriously curtailed. There are also serious implications for in-flight magazines and airlines that earn revenue from legitimate duty-free sales—a point understandably made by my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire), whose constituency includes Heathrow airport.
      We welcomed clause 17, which reversed earlier changes to the burden of proof defence, a principle that was debated in the upper House. We did not get satisfactory answers, however, to clause 7—the Henry VIII clause—under which the Secretary of State can change virtually anything in the legislation under the guise of technological advances. We then came, of course, to the thorny issue of sponsorship and the very special treatment meted out to tobacco company sponsorship of Formula 1 racing—a leading player that bunged the Labour party £1 million. Coincidentally, it found itself the beneficiary of special treatment.
      Mr. Stephen Pound: That is ancient history.
      Tim Loughton: It may well be ancient, but it is highly relevant to legislation that still has not gone through, until we approve it—or not—this evening. Extraordinarily, the Minister declined to support the helpful amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne, which would have avoided all hint of accusations of double standards by not extending special exemptions to groups that have made political donations in the previous 10 years. Not surprisingly, that was another case of the Liberal Democrat health spokesman, the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) —he is no longer here—praising the amendment and the spirit of it, and then voting against it. Again, the amendment was a legitimate attempt to reduce the Bill's vulnerability to further allegations of sleaze by the Government or any other party.
      We were dealing with clause 20 and the effect on world professional darts and other global sports, when we were cut off in mid-flow. Unlike Formula 1, such sports are not flush with cash. They may not seem the healthiest of pursuits, but they are worthwhile as they

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      encourage young people to take up activities that are much more positive than some others that they might get up to.
      We also had a problem with the guillotine in Committee—we should have properly scrutinised the clauses, but we were unable to do so because we were limited to just five sittings. As a result, many clauses were not debated. However, we did not pursue that point this evening. In the interests of pushing the Bill on, we were happy not to table further amendments. In the spirit of seeing this Bill through, we were prepared not to revisit those clauses and to concentrate instead on a paving provision for a sunset consideration. That would have required the Government to keep up to date with research on the legislation's impact, and to change it accordingly if it had no effect, or a detrimental effect. It is a shame that the Government were not prepared to accept that new clause.
      We all want the same end. We all hate smoking and we all want to deter it wherever possible.
      Bob Spink: My hon. Friend is treating the House to an extraordinarily eloquent summary of the issues surrounding the Bill, and I am very grateful to him. However, I wonder if I could tempt him to explore an issue on which he has yet to pontificate: the negative publicity that one company might dish against another. Will the Bill deal with that satisfactorily, or will we need to reconsider it at some stage? Will that issue provide the lawyers with a great deal of work and money in future?
      Mr. Miller: He is a lawyer.
      Tim Loughton: The hon. Gentleman suggests that I am a lawyer but I never have been and I never will be. My hon. Friend has picked up the lingo sharpish. He uses a technical term—to "diss"—that was used by the Minister, the meaning of which had to be explained. The use of that phrase was as offensive as my use of sunsetise, so we are both guilty in that regard. His question is one for the Minister to answer, not me, and she will doubtless deal with it at the end of the debate.
      As I said, we all want the same end. I hope that the Government will keep closely under review the implications and effects of this legislation—if it is enacted—and not just treat it as a box to tick, saying, "We've banned tobacco advertising, we've done the stuff against smoking—that's it." There is much more to it, as the Minister said. We have serious reservations, as we made clear throughout Committee stage. Parts of the Bill are bad law, but it has been much more closely scrutinised than a lot of other legislation, and we are prepared to give it the benefit of the doubt. As such, we will not oppose Third Reading.
      6.56 pm
      Mr. Hopkins: I wish that the Bill had been enacted years earlier, but it is welcome even at this stage. It is a necessary measure to reduce smoking and the prevalence of the terrible diseases that smoking causes, but it is not sufficient in itself. We have to go much further in reducing smoking and avoiding the terrible health damage that it causes. In particular, we must try
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      to persuade young people not to take up smoking. As I said and as we all appreciate, it is extremely addictive. My hon. Friend the Minister suggested that it is as addictive as certain of the hard drugs that are currently illegal, and I am sure that that is true. I remember the terrible struggle that I had when I gave up smoking all those years ago. I smoked considerably, and giving up was that hard that it took 10 or 11 weeks before I stopped dreaming about cigarettes. Fortunately, I managed to overcome it in a "cold turkey" manner—I believe that that is the terminology used in these circles; it is not a phrase I use frequently—and came greatly to dislike smoking. I do feel, however, for those who continue to smoke. They are clearly still addicted, and many of them desperately want to give up.
      I believe that tobacco advertising that is associated with pleasurable events such as sporting fixtures, and which makes use of nice settings, does not help people to give up smoking. It gives them a degree of comfort, and a warm feeling about this dreadful habit. We have done the right thing in moving toward banning such advertising. The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) argues that we should somehow establish a voluntary ban. That is fine if it works, but why oppose a compulsory ban if we do not have a voluntary one? If a compulsory ban would not have any effect, why would a voluntary one be necessary? Any economist would say that advertising is a clear attempt to induce people to purchase and use a product. If one takes away that inducement, less of it will be purchased and consumed. That is what the Bill is about—reducing the attractions of smoking, and changing its image.
      We must address the culture of smoking. We live in a society that, historically, has smoked for a long time—since Sir Walter Raleigh brought tobacco back from America. In doing so, he did not do us any favours, but I suppose that its discovery was inevitable at some point. It is still a fact that, among young people, smoking is seen as adult and attractive. It provides an image, and it is that image that we must dent somehow. The Bill will help take us further along that route. Certainly, in the circles in which I mix, smoking is not fashionable these days; indeed, it is very unfashionable. A small number of people do smoke—some members of my family do so—but they know that it is not fashionable. However, they are addicted, and they have to leave the building and stand outside the back door—even if it is someone's home—in order to smoke. That is very embarrassing, but it is right for us to try to change the culture so that we make people feel that smoking is bad not only for them but for everyone and that they should try their best to give it up.
      One of the attractions of giving up smoking is financial, although I accept that that point has nothing to do with the Bill. Since I gave up, I have not spent on smoking about £75,000—a substantial sum. Unfortunately, I do not have it to hand. From time to time, I advocate the benefits of giving up smoking and I find that health arguments are not as persuasive with young people. They think that lung cancer might not affect them in early life and that later on they would die anyway, but the financial arguments are often persuasive, especially to those who are not well-off: £75,000 sounds like a great deal of money to a young

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      person, whereas the possibility of being ill when one is 40, 50 or 60 is not as convincing. so I use the financial argument frequently.
      The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham referred to price-cutting. I hope to persuade my hon. Friend the Minister to consider that point because price-cutting is a real risk. If tobacco manufacturers are banned from advertising, they will spend less on their products so they will have extra income and could, conceivably, reduce their prices while making the same amount of profit. They might even increase their profits because they might induce more people to smoke; clearly, there is a demand curve. In addition, existing smokers might smoke even more. Will my hon. Friend have a word with our right hon. Friend the Chancellor and point out that one way of overcoming that problem would be for him to raise the tax by the same amount as the reduction in the costs of cigarette advertising? For example, if that reduction amounted to 10 per cent. of the price, the tax should be raised by 10 per cent. The price to the consumer would not change, but the take for the Chancellor would increase. That would be a sensible approach and I can see no arguments against it, although smokers and tobacco manufacturers would probably not be terribly keen on it. However, such a measure would certainly help to finance the health service and to deal with some of the problems caused by smoking.
      The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham also mentioned smuggling. I strongly agree that it is a serious issue. It is distressing that, recently, there has been pressure on Customs and Excise to be less fierce with people who smuggle alcohol and cigarettes into the country. I should like a stronger regime, with lower limits on the number of cigarettes one can legitimately bring in; much fiercer regulation of sales of imported tobacco products; higher penalties and much more rigorous investigation. For example, I understand that ice-cream salespeople, driving around with their bells and their jingles, frequently sell rolling tobacco and cigarettes under the counter.
      Mr. Pound: Will my hon. Friend give me the details?
      Mr. Hopkins: We all know that my hon. Friend is a smoker, so I shall certainly give him what information I have.
      Obviously, ice-cream causes no harm and we can all enjoy it.
      Mr. Pound: What?
      Mr. Hopkins: I do not care for ice-cream, but that is not the point. Selling illicit, cheap, imported tobacco or cigarettes, especially to the less well-off, is not acceptable and could easily be effectively policed.
      Some corner shops sell such illicit tobacco products and they, too, could be policed easily. If there were serious penalties, the practice would be stopped. At the same time, we must police our borders, which is much easier for us as an island than if we had land boundaries. We should address smuggling; it is a serious problem. Cigarettes and tobacco products are easier to smuggle than alcohol because they are so small and light, but we should take steps to stop, or at least severely reduce, smuggling.
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      When my predecessor as Member of Parliament for Luton, North-John Carlisle—left this place, he took up employment in the tobacco industry and, for a salary several times larger than that of a Member of Parliament, speaks for the industry on television programmes such as "Newsnight". He has done extremely well out of the tobacco industry.
      Mr. Pound: Is my hon. Friend aware that his distinguished predecessor has never, despite the financial emoluments, allowed himself to savour the sweet, aromatic produce of the glorious tobacco plant? He is a non-smoker.
      Mr. Hopkins: In that sense my predecessor is altruistic, because he is advocating something that he does not do himself. He advertises the pleasures of smoking without actually being a smoker, although there are of course financial inducements. I digress, however, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I will not test you further.
      It is significant, however, that the tobacco companies found it useful to employ an extremely articulate former parliamentarian to speak on their behalf, to promote their products and the idea that smoking is fine.
      Mr. Martin Salter: Does my hon. Friend agree that even more pernicious than the employment of ex-Members of Parliament, whether or not they smoke and whatever their salary, is the way that tobacco companies have permeated sports sponsorship? It will be a Herculean task for many sports to wean themselves from their dependency on tobacco advertising. Will my hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Minister bear in mind the problems for my sport—angling—due to its sponsorship by Embassy? The company is currently sponsoring the Embassy pairs final. All the qualifying heats are due to be completed by May 2003 for an event that will take place in Spain the following year. However, the event may fall foul of the regulations as currently drafted. Has my hon. Friend given any consideration to the introduction of the regulations?
      Mr. Hopkins: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention although I have no immediate answer to his difficulty. I appreciate the problem: regrettably, sports have learned to depend on tobacco producers for sponsorship and will have to look elsewhere. One hopes that they are successful. However, that is not an argument for sustaining such sponsorship for longer than necessary. When the Bill is enacted, one hopes that it will disappear quickly.
      Branding is extremely powerful. The mere use of a colour, with no reference to cigarettes, is enough to make people think of Benson and Hedges, John Player or Silk Cut. When I was a young person—some years ago—and a smoker, we all favoured our own brand; one's identity was bound up with the cigarettes one smoked—
      Mr. Pound: Hopkins king-size?
      Mr. Hopkins: It may seem humorous now, but we were all addicted to cigarette smoking.

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      One or two of my friends were Francophiles and chose to smoke Gauloises or Gitanes. Others liked king-size cigarettes—as my hon. Friend pointed out. I mixed with amateur jazz musicians and in those circles it was fashionable to smoke roll-up cigarettes—
      Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. The hon. Gentleman really should confine his remarks to Third Reading.
      Mr. Hopkins: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I shall move to a conclusion.
      I wanted to emphasise that branding and personal identity are very powerful indeed—the idea that "I'm a Park Drive man" and so on. We must address that issue because brands will continue, even without advertising. I am not suggesting that all cigarettes should be sold in brown paper packets, numbered "1", "2" or "3". Nevertheless, we must deal with branding because I am sure that tobacco companies will persist in trying to reinforce our loyalty to cigarette smoking and to particular brands by every subtle means at their disposal, so we have to look beyond the Bill to further measures.
      I shall end my speech very soon, as I have made my points, but I want to make a final point, which I made in Committee as well: alcohol is very different from cigarettes, although there are some similarities. Alcohol is not addictive for most people, and most people drink it in moderation. Indeed, some people consider that it is healthy in small quantities. However, one cigarette is bad; 100 cigarettes are 100 times worse. All cigarettes are bad. They are fairly quickly addictive, and most people who smoke are addicted, which is not true of people who consume alcohol. So I emphasise the difference between cigarettes and alcohol, although, in time, we must address the problems of alcohol, too.
      Finally, I thank the House for giving me this opportunity to speak, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister on picking up the reins so effectively and skilfully on the Bill at a late stage.
      7.11 pm
      Sandra Gidley: I am here tonight as a substitute in many ways for my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris); it is his birthday, so I thought it would be useful to let him have the chance to get away.
      As has been said by the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), apart from a passing interest, I have had little involvement in the Bill this time round, but I served on the Committee that considered the Bill when it was first introduced during the previous Parliament. I should like to pay tribute to the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, the hon. Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), who was here earlier this evening, for displaying a strong commitment to the previous Bill, and she has since publicly expressed her disappointment that it was not included in the Queen's Speech in 2001.
      I question why we had to go through things in so much detail again. I have listened to the litany of amendments that the Conservatives have tabled—all
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      very valid, but I can remember all of them being discussed in Committee during the 2000 Session. In fact, most of them were probably debated at great—some would say, over-great—length by the then Member for South Dorset. Obviously, that seat has changed hands and he is no longer with us, but I can remember him bringing in items of clothing with logos to show the power of branding. At that stage, there was much emphasis on various vested interests, and I feel that that has not been escaped because the Conservatives still seem to stand up for an industry that funds something that is not in the best interests of health.
      The Bill interests me on a personal level because my father died from lung cancer. He was a non-smoker, but I have absolutely no doubt that he was a victim of passive smoking in his work environment, so I personally support anything that will reduce smoking. Not many people smoke in my circle of friends, so it is very easy to fall into the trap of believing that smoking is declining, but I used to work in the retail sector, where the situation was very different.
      I worked as a pharmacist in supermarkets, and nearly all the young people used to head for the smoking box at break time. Most of them had started smoking at school. I do not know how influenced they were by advertising, but I am fairly sure that allowing fewer images of smoking, fewer reminders and fewer prompts suggesting that a brand is sexy in some way can be only to our benefit.
      The Minister has said that the Bill is historic. In fact, I am sure not whether she intended to use those words because the historic bit seems to be that the pledge to introduce it has been hanging around since 1997. I am not quite sure of the reasons why we could not agree about the Bill sooner. If the Conservatives were so keen for the Bill to go ahead, there is no reason why it could not all have been worked out through the usual channels when the election was called.
      I pay tribute to my noble Friend Lord Clement-Jones. He saw the opportunity to reintroduce the Bill that had fallen. He called himself
      "the frail instrument by which we hope to reintroduce the Bill"— [Official Report, House of Lords, 2 November 2001; Vol. 627, c. 1647.]
      However, his attitude toward progressing the Bill has been anything but frail, and I express my admiration and respect for his tenacity. It goes to show that Liberal Democrats can make a difference. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I had to get that in, didn't I?
      The Minister has said that smoking eventually kills one in two smokers, so does she accept that the delay has been unfortunate and has cost lives? I need to make that point, but I do not want to be too churlish. It is clear that the Bill will make a significant contribution to reducing the number of deaths, and I am glad that it will have the support of the House, but it is not a stand-alone measure.
      Much has been said about smoking cessation initiatives, but they are still too few and still not advertised widely enough. The health education messages are not getting across, and we must do something to tackle the problem. Most children in my constituency are dead set against smoking when they leave primary school, but something happens to change that. We need to look closely at why that change occurs.

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      I agree with the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham that soaps and films have a very powerful influence. If people see someone smoking whom they admire or think is attractive, it adds to the package and sends the wrong message. Somehow, we have to get the message through to the media that we should have a few more positive health messages, rather than negative ones.
      I also wish to add my comments on bootleg cigarettes and alcohol. Again, I was working in the supermarket sector when the duty-free arrangements changed, and nearly every supermarket in the south of England experienced a dramatic drop in its cigarette sales. I do not believe that that drop occurred because everyone was jumping on to a booze cruise to stock up on personal supplies at the weekend. Many people spent a lot of time and effort making a lucrative living from the change in duty-free arrangements. It is bit rich for the Conservatives to complain at length about that issue because they cut down the number of Custom and Excise staff considerably when they were in government, but I am glad to say that they appear to have seen the light now.
      On Second Reading, Conservative Members claimed that there was insufficient evidence that the Bill would lead to a quantifiable reduction in tobacco consumption. There may be no such evidence, but there is certainly no evidence that introducing the Bill will increase tobacco consumption. I happen to believe that reducing such images will decrease tobacco consumption, and if we tackle the other problems together, perhaps the rate of smoking will fall dramatically.
      7.19 pm
      James Purnell: I must start by declaring an interest as an occasional smoker.
      Mr. Pound: Montecristos, I take it.
      James Purnell: Marlboro Lights, actually. That is the last piece of free advertising that I shall give any cigarette company.
      I started smoking when I was about 12. I clearly remember the influence that advertising had on my decision to start smoking as a teenager, which is not quite so long ago as it is for my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Mr. Hopkins). As the hon. Member for Romsey (Sandra Gidley) said, children leave primary school absolutely determined not to smoke, but they then get the idea that it is glamorous. That idea is partly imparted by their peers, but largely through advertising, Hollywood films and television. The current restrictions on advertising somehow make the situation worse because the tobacco industry does not advertise the product but instead something like a purple stripe or a strange part of middle America. That increases the mystique of smoking.
      The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) suggested greater reliance on a voluntary code, but that idea is doomed to failure. Previous examples of voluntary codes trying to reduce the amount of advertising to children and teenagers show that, as long as the industry regulates itself, it will find ways of being able to adopt a position that it can just about defend while continuing to advertise as it
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      seeks the 120,000 new customers that it needs each year to replace those whom it kills. The point was made in the debates in the Lords and in this House that the industry would not spend so much on advertising if it did not think that it had any effect. That point is unanswerable. I first tried to give up smoking after I had been to hospital and saw someone being wheeled out to the smoking room and painfully putting a cigarette not to their mouth, but to a hole that had been put in their throat. That experience of the consequences of cigarette smoking shocked me out of my complacency at that time.
      As all the previous speakers have said, the Bill cannot stand alone. It must be accompanied by smoking cessation programmes and education in schools. However, to suggest that we should do other things does not invalidate the arguments for the Bill, which will be a building block in trying to reduce the amount of smoking, in particular, by young people.
      However, there are good liberal arguments against such a measure. For example, Lord Naseby has referred to the potential conflict with article 10 of the European convention on human rights, and his argument deserves to be heard. It is important to show the problems that the Bill may cause, and I have some sympathy with those arguments. I would not want freedom of expression to be curtailed except when there is a strong case for doing so. In this case, I think that the case has been made. It is worth repeating that tobacco kills one in two of the people who take it up and undermines people's willpower and ability to make a rational decision. As such, Mill's hope that free speech and a discussion of the arguments would result in the truth coming out and the desired effect on behaviour seems slightly idealistic. The fact that the product undermines people's willpower and ability to make choices for themselves and kills many more than the drugs that are currently banned justifies the drastic moves to ban tobacco advertising and sponsorship.
      The Government must, however, take account of the effects on sponsorship companies and on the sponsorship deals for sport. I know that the Government have done much to wean sport off such deals, but it is worth bearing in mind those who work in the tobacco industry. Through no fault of their own, they have become involved in an industry on which restrictions will be placed. In that context, I wish to mention the Gallagher factory in Hyde in my constituency. It closed at the beginning of the Government's term of office, because the company received an incentive to move it to Northern Ireland. The Gallagher building, which dominates Hyde, is empty and the hundreds of people who worked there lost their jobs. Many of my constituents have not found other work since the company moved to another part of the country.
      I therefore urge the Government to consider what can be done to provide much greater transitional aid to people who are affected by such industrial change. People who had worked for a lifetime in the tobacco industry lost their employment and did not receive the help that they might have expected. I know that the Department for Work and Pensions now puts in place much more quickly effective transitional work programmes when mass redundancies occur, but I hope that we learn the lessons of my constituents' painful experience.

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      The clinching argument to justify the Bill is that about health inequality. If one compares prosperous neighbourhoods with those such as mine, it is clear that smoking plays a central role in the greater rate of early death in working-class families. However, it is all too often easy to forget that, behind those figures, lies a personal tragedy for each of those families. People do not only lose a relative but may lose the household's whole income. We cannot deal with health inequality just by building more hospitals and by investing in primary care. We must deal with the causes, and a central cause is the higher rate of smoking among people from low-income households.
      David Taylor: I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend. Does he agree that billboard advertising, in particular, is focused in areas of low incomes and high unemployment? That is a particularly cynical move by the tobacco companies to reinforce tobacco consumption in those sections of the population who are most damaged by it.
      James Purnell: That is an extremely good point. Anyone who works in such areas notices that. It is not the only cynical action that the tobacco industry has taken. For example, the marketing to young people and the cocktail of glamour, Hollywood or sport to encourage people to smoke by association are all in its catalogue of cynicism. Furthermore, the industry denied the link between smoking and cancer. For as long as possible, tobacco companies tried to pretend that something that they must have known was the case was not actually the case. That, combined with what continues to happen despite the good words that the industry uses about voluntary codes and not advertising to children, are testament to what it is up to.
      I am not suggesting that people should be prevented from smoking. The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham suggested that the Government did not have the courage of their convictions in not banning smoking. Such action would be deeply illiberal. Smoking is legal and to ban it entirely would not be justified. It is not a question of not having the courage of one's convictions but of doing what is appropriate to deal with a particular evil. Banning would be excessive, but the consequences of smoking on young people, in particular, are sufficient to justify the Bill's drastic provisions.
      I hope that we will not use the Bill as an excuse not to concentrate on other measures to promote smoking cessation. For example, I congratulate the Department of Health on its "don't dare" campaign that has run over the past couple of years and particularly at Christmas to encourage people to give up smoking. The use of a broken cigarette is an extremely good way of reminding people of the slightly pathetic side of smoking.
      My problem with smoking is that I find it easy to give up. Whenever I give up, I decide to start again because I will find it easy to give up again. That happens quite often, and one finds that one has not really given up. We should put the emphasis on getting the Government to advertise as effectively as possible and to continue their campaign to discourage smoking; we should not allow
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      tobacco companies to advertise to young people in their attempt to keep them addicted to smoking. That would be a major step in reducing health inequality, and would save hundreds and perhaps thousands of families from the tragedy of losing someone to lung or tongue cancer. Such provisions would be widely welcomed in the community.
      7.29 pm
      Mr. Flook: First, I declare an interest, which can be found in the Register of Members' Interests. I also declare an interest as a heavy ex-smoker who smoked well over 30 a day for about 10 years. I did not need hypnosis to give up. Unlike the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (James Purnell), however, I found it so easy to give up 30 a day that I would not dare take it up again.
      As a neighbour of mine for many years, the strictures on smoking by my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) were such that I had to have a puff before I visited him. Every time I wanted another cigarette I had to go home, three doors away. I also recall that on an armed forces parliamentary scheme trip, the bus was held up while the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Pound) had yet another puff and continued his way with the wicked weed.
      I am concerned that attempts on both sides of the House to scrutinise the Bill, which has been five years in the making, seem to come down to the fact that the Government cannot make their mind up. Instead, they say, "Don't worry. We'll ask the courts." Although the measure was a commitment in the 1997 Labour party manifesto, the Government decided that rather than introduce domestic legislation immediately, they would support and promote a European directive. That was mistake number one. The contentious legal basis of the directive meant that the European Court of Justice annulled it in October 2000. The Government were forced to introduce a Bill to ban tobacco advertising, promotion and sponsorship, but it ran out of time. It is a great pity that they should try to make political capital and blame the Conservative party for that. The Bill needed amending and the important amendments were not just in our name, but in those of Labour Members and Cross-Benchers in another place.
      We have gone over the arguments time and time again. It is important that we consider the Bill in that light. The Liberal Democrats make great play that the Bill is their Bill. I am sorry to say, therefore, that this Bill is their Bill improperly scrutinised. It is distressing that the hon. Member for Romsey (Sandra Gidley) contradicted herself. She said in an intervention that there was no need to add to Lord Clement-Jones's Bill in the other place. However, in her speech she said that the Conservative amendments were valid. She cannot have it both ways.
      I want to address the failure of parliamentary scrutiny. The Government have tried to stifle the process of scrutiny by resisting every amendment that we tabled. Indeed, the Minister said that she had some sympathy for new clause 2, but she would still not accept it. Her predecessor, now the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, the hon. Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), refused to

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      accept amendments. The only way out of the problem is for the Government to ask the courts. However, the consultation paper on the draft regulations, which they intend to make as soon as the Bill is passed, baldly states that a picture of a packet of tobacco is an advertisement. It also says that an indication of a special price or offer is an advertisement, according to the Bill. The Government cannot have it both ways. They cannot say that is for the courts to decide what is and what is not an advertisement and then provide for us their determination of what is or what is not an advertisement. In that respect the Bill lacks a high degree of certainty.
      Twice I have raised the issue of whether promotion can be matched with dissing, which my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) raised. I have yet to receive a proper answer.
      Bob Spink: The term is dishing.
      Mr. Flook: Either will do, although dissing is the more correct terminology for people of my generation.
      Dissing a competitor's product would have the same impact as, for example, Benson and Hedges against Marlboro—
      Mr. Pound: No contest.
      Mr. Flook: There may well be no contest for the hon. Gentleman who, if memory serves me right, smokes a particularly wicked brand of tobacco.
      It is of great concern—[Interruption.]
      Madam Deputy Speaker: Order.
      Mr. Flook: Many Conservative Members are greatly concerned that the ability of the tobacco companies to spend their way to success by advertising their products will be replaced by the tobacco companies employing lawyers to run circles around the Government by being inventive with such poorly drafted legislation.
      7.35 pm
      Judy Mallaber: It is not stifling scrutiny for Labour Members to say that we do not agree with amendments. There has been plenty of time to discuss and make the case for them.
      I am pleased that the Opposition will not vote against Third Reading, but they have come up with the most extraordinary smokescreens to prevent tobacco companies from being stopped in their attempts to addict people, which is what they are about. They are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think that tobacco manufacturers will happily agree to effective voluntary measures. Those companies have spent a fortune defending claims that they have given people cancer. A chilling John Grisham thriller, which was made into a film, portrayed tobacco manufacturers going through the courts to ensure that they did not have to pay big damages. I am sure that that depiction was close to the truth. Tobacco manufacturers have spent a fortune on targeting young people. They now want to get cigarettes more widely smoked within the third world and developing countries. There is no way that they will voluntarily do anything that stops them making profits.
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      The next smokescreen concerns the prevalence of smuggling. No one says that a ban on advertising is the only measure or the panacea. It has to work alongside measures to tackle smuggling, but smuggling would not be profitable if people had not been persuaded into becoming addicted to smoking. The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) said that we were suggesting a ban on smoking. The argument on Second Reading that we were removing civil liberties did not stand up. Conservative Members were pushed into admitting that the only limitation on civil liberties was the liberty of the tobacco manufacturers to addict people to smoking. People will still have the freedom to choose whether they will smoke.
      As a non-smoker, my civil liberties have been abused for years by people blowing smoke in my face and forcing me to participate in passive smoking, but I have never sought to ban that. I could easily make that argument, however, because my civil liberties have been impinged.
      Mr. Hopkins: Does my hon. Friend agree that the right to breathe fresh air is a prior liberty to the right to smoke?
      Judy Mallaber: I agree. The right to roam across our beautiful countryside is another such right, and I am pleased that we have introduced it.
      This morning I launched a healthy living centre in Amber Valley to encourage healthier communities. Its role is to promote a range of measures, in particular the reduction of health inequalities, as discussed so eloquently by my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (James Purnell). The centre promotes measures on healthy eating, deals with health in the workplace and highlights proposals on exercise and on mental nourishment through arts programmes. It also promotes ways to help elderly people to live independently. But what is the point of promoting that range of public health measures if we still allow the promotion of a drug that is one of our biggest killers? What is the point of putting all that extra money into our hospitals to pick up the pieces created by the appalling promotion of that drug? What is the point of including all the measures in primary care, which is doing wonderful things in my area? They enable the setting up of anti-smoking clinics, which pick up the pieces. The Bill is essential and I am delighted that it is making progress.
      On Second Reading, I mentioned several issues that related to young people from my experience in my constituency. I visited a school and read out a poem that a young child had written about how awful smoking was. It was effective and moving, and I spoke to many young children about the desperation that they felt because their father or grandfather smoked.
      We went on to the early teen stage, when children are vulnerable. I drew attention to a theatrical project in one of my schools in which a year 7 boy talked about why he believed that he might smoke. He said that he had not smoked because he thought that it was dangerous. He then paused and said straight to camera in a video booth by himself, "But I think I probably will start smoking when I get older and I just don't know why." We know why. This evening, hon. Members have mentioned the

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      glamour, the soap stars who smoke, the brand promotion and the advertising. They appeal to young teenagers. That is the age group that tobacco manufacturers target. That is what we must stop, and why the Bill is so important. Those who have not smoked by the time they are 20 are unlikely to take up smoking. We must stop the blatant advertising that promotes smoking as cool.
      Tobacco manufacturers will not voluntarily give up advertising. They want to be able to promote their products. They need to get children addicted. If they cannot do that in this country, they will do so in third world countries and try to spread smoking there.
      I am delighted that the Bill will be passed. Tomorrow morning, members of the Stroke Association will take a petition to Downing street that argues for more facilities for stroke patients. We want to move quickly on that. I shall be pleased to join them and be able to say that at least we are introducing a measure that will result in fewer strokes.
      I visited my local branch of the Stroke Association a couple of weeks ago in stroke awareness week. I talked to people about the problems that they had experienced as stroke patients. My dad died of a stroke. He was a smoker who gave up smoking after his first stroke. However, soon after he retired, he had a second stroke. He never had a chance to enjoy his retirement. I shall be pleased to tell people from the Stroke Association tomorrow that today we took steps to ban tobacco advertising.
      I congratulate everybody who has played a part in getting the measure through. It has taken far too long, but I welcome what has happened tonight.
      7.42 pm
      Pete Wishart: Again, I am the sole representative on these Benches. I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Judy Mallaber). I have heard her speak on the matter on a couple of occasions, and she speaks elegantly and with commitment. It is unfortunate that we have reached the last few speeches on the subject, which has been kicking around both Houses for some time.
      I am delighted to contribute to Third Reading and to reach that stage. People who work in health care, including primary care and cancer wards, will be prepared to congratulate the House this evening. There will be general delight throughout the country. Only the tobacco companies will be unhappy about today's proceedings. They will no longer be able to promote their poisonous product with impunity.
      The journey towards the measure began in Edinburgh when the Scottish National party MSP Nicola Sturgeon promoted her private Member's Bill to attempt to ban tobacco advertising in Scotland. We believed that the Government prevaricated this time last year, and that Ministers' statements were ambiguous. Perhaps we were impatient, and the Government fully intended to introduce a Bill as soon as possible. However, last summer, we believed that the Government needed gentle encouragement along the road to ensure that we reached our current position. I am glad that we played our little part in the Scottish Parliament.
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      We were disappointed that the Queen's Speech did not include a Bill to ban tobacco advertising. If we could not have a full United Kingdom ban, at least the Scottish Parliament had the power to ban tobacco advertising in Scotland. However. let us be clear: we wanted a full UK ban, which is superior, just as a full European Union ban would be superior to UK legislation alone.
      Since that time, Lord Clement-Jones's Bill has been adopted and we withdrew our measure in the Scottish Parliament. However, let us give credit where it is due. Nicola Sturgeon and our colleagues on the Health and Community Care Committee of the Scottish Parliament deserve credit for helping us to reach our current stage. They formed part of the tapestry that led us to Third Reading. I do not believe that we would be here without the gentle encouragement of Lord Clement-Jones, Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Parliament at a time when a great deal of backtracking was going on.
      The Scottish National party and Plaid Cymru are satisfied that the Bill is comprehensive and will significantly reduce smoking and thereby smoking-related disease. It was important that the Bill was amended but remained comprehensive. I am pleased that the Conservatives' amendments were not supported. The Bill is now comprehensive, leaves tobacco advertisers nowhere to go and gives them no hope for future advertising opportunities.
      Several hon. Members have talked about culture and the dangerous age between 12 and 17 when young people appear to be attracted to smoking. I have an 11-year-old son, and he and his friends can be pious when they talk about smoking. They can cite chapter and verse about why smoking is bad for people but I fear for them when they go to secondary school because something dramatic happens then. We should undertake a qualitative study to ascertain what happens between the ages of 12 and 17 that encourages young people to start smoking.
      I agree with the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) who was worried about product placement. The Bill does not cover that comprehensively and I share his anxieties about cigarettes and drinks being advertised in soap operas. My previous honourable profession in the music industry has a part to play. We need role models and people who will champion an anti-smoking cause. One rock star or film star with a cigarette in his hand is worth more than 100 tobacco-advertising billboards. We must do more to challenge that culture. We must try to adopt champions for that and make progress.
      As the Minister said, the tobacco industry will try to circumvent the Bill. When tobacco companies lose hundreds of smokers a day, they need new recruits and they will do anything to find them. We must remain vigilant and, if necessary, revisit the measure if loopholes appear.
      I congratulate the Government on pushing the Bill through this evening. I also congratulate the House of Lords and the Scottish Parliament on their work in ensuring that we reached our current stage. We have a good Bill that will significantly reduce smoking and smoking-related disease throughout the United Kingdom.
      7.47 pm
      Mr. Pound: In the interests of balance, it may be appropriate to hear the gasping tones of at least one smoker. Oscar Wilde said:
      "A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied."
      However, he also said:
      "As long as war is regarded as wicked, it will always have its fascination. When it is looked upon as vulgar, it will cease to be popular."
      That is the key factor.
      I support the Bill, although I have grave doubts and reservations about it, as part of a wider initiative that is right. There is no question about that. However, can we be honest for a moment about cigarette advertising? Twenty or 30 years ago, it was aggressive and influenced people to smoke. People felt that there was something distinctly wrong with them if they did not smoke. I remember the advertisement for Rothman's, which featured an airline pilot gracefully landing his jet at Heathrow, leaning back in the cockpit and lighting a revivifying Rothman. Often, my nine-year-old and 10-year-old schoolmates and I leaned back in our soapbox carts and said, "Now it's time for a Rothman."
      "You're never alone with a Strand." I remember the enigmatic figure in a raincoat in the days when men wandering the streets the London at night in raincoats were comparatively innocent. That man satisfied himself on the bridge at midnight with a Strand. [Laughter.] It was immensely seductive. [Laughter.] I am sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker; the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) has unmanned me.
      In those days, an innocent child with no thoughts of nicotine could wander the streets of Fulham and be ensnared by aggressive advertising, and many of us were. In my case, I distinctly remember going to see the doctor on a matter that I do not choose to share with the House. The doctor invited me in and said, "Sit down, old chap, you look frayed. Have a cigarette." He whipped out his case—Turkish cigarettes on one side and Virginia on the other—and we sat and smoked. But that was then; this is now.
      I cannot, in all conscience, believe that anyone who has never thought of smoking wanders down the street and, seeing a sign advertising Lambert and Butler, says, "Well, stone me, I think I'll start smoking!" It simply does not work like that. It might persuade people to smoke brand X rather than brand Y, but it is not the reason that people start smoking. I have teenage children at secondary school, and I know damned well why many of their classmates will smoke. It is because smoking is perceived as cool. To revert to the comment by Oscar Wilde, as long as smoking is wicked, it will be popular, and as long as we say, "This is evil and must be stopped", there will be children saying "Yes! I'll have some of that!" A few years ago, it was—allegedly— possible to import via the internet cigarettes that had a skull and crossbones on the packet and were called Death cigarettes. They sold by the bucket load—not that I wish to declare an interest in this in any way whatever. This is not the way to do it.
      I was delighted to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Mr. Hopkins), the Minister and others talking about another real problem: the issue that
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      we blithely call product placement. As long as some sensual siren who reaches peaks of sexuality that people like me can only dream about leans back in her silken sheets after a hard night and lights a cigarette—and if the closest that I can ever get to Gwyneth Paltrow is to have a cigarette after thinking about her—it is inevitable that many other people will also do that. That is the problem. We have heard about villains on television, such as those on EastEnders, who smoke cigarettes and are perceived as hard, ruthless people who just do not care. That, sadly, is attractive to teenagers, and we have to address this issue.
      I am going to support the Government because, well, frankly, I always do. I will support them, but not entirely with a full heart or even, possibly, working lungs. The reason is that this ban on tobacco advertising will not ban tobacco. Not for the first time, I am disappointed in Her Majesty's Opposition. Had they but had the courage to say, "This is a foul, evil business. We'll ban the lot! Let's go for prohibition!", I would have admired their intellectual honesty. They could quite easily have gone for that. Instead, they have been dancing around tabling these different amendments and I have to say that, in some cases, they have been rather foolish. The Government have accepted a pragmatic response and offered a pragmatic solution involving a range of options. I agree with that, and I will support them, but I implore the Minister and other hon. Members to realise that every time we send out the message that cigarette smoking is vile and wicked, some teenager somewhere—for the same reason that they buy those appalling Eminem records—will choose to smoke.
      I do not wish to detain the House further, as many people wish to go to the smoking room after this debate. I will, of course, support the Government, but nobody should kid themselves that taking the names of tobacco companies off racing cars or ocean-going yachts is going to end cigarette smoking. That is not going to do it. It may cause great pain in the world of sports sponsorship—indeed, it probably will. My predecessor as Member of Parliament for Ealing, North is still sponsored for a pensioners' tea party every year by Gallagher. Fair play to him: it is legal and he continues to do it. I choose not to do so. But the Bill is part of a wider package involving cessation and health warnings, and I wish the Government a fair wind. I only wish that I could muster one myself, but my lungs are not quite up to it.
      7.54 pm
      Ms Blears: I am delighted to have the vulgar loyalism of my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Pound). If that is the most support that he can give us, I am grateful for it.
      I want to deal with some of the issues raised by hon. Members as briefly as I can, because we have been over this ground many times before. The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) said that he was still not convinced that there was a link between advertising and smoking. I wonder how much more he wants to see. He described his new clause as a paving clause for a sunset clause. One cannot get much more indirect than that. We saw his true colours there. That new clause was a last-gasp attempt to allow the industry to continue to ply its trade of advertising and promoting tobacco. We need to be honest about that.

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      The hon. Gentleman also talked about smuggling. He is well aware that the Government have put an extra £200 million into tackling smuggling, along with X-ray machines at all our ports and thousands of extra customs officers, and that 3 billion cigarettes have been seized this year. There is a lot more to be done to tackle smuggling, but he is well aware of the Government's determination to crack down on the problem. He also said that there was not enough time fully to scrutinise the Bill in Committee. The way in which he has failed to move his amendments this evening gives the lie to that. He had every opportunity to spend another couple of hours scrutinising the Bill and moving his detailed amendments, but he chose not to do so.
      The hon. Gentleman and others mentioned product placement and the impact of the activities of celebrities such as soap stars on young people taking up smoking. That important point was raised by the hon. Member for North Tayside (Pete Wishart) and by my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North. We intend to do whatever we can to get some champions for our anti-smoking campaigns, to ensure that we get the message across as powerfully as we possibly can, particularly to young people. If any hon. Member can suggest anyone who might be prepared to help that cause, we would be grateful for that information.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Mr. Hopkins) made an important point about price cutting, and asked whether the Chancellor might look at that in the Budget. I assure him that the Chancellor takes into account the effects of price in his Budget process, and he will certainly continue to examine that area. My hon. Friend the Member for Reading, West (Mr. Salter) raised an important point about the National Federation of Anglers, which is proposing to hold an event in 2004. The consultation on sponsorship is out, and people have until 15 November to respond to it. I shall ensure that the National Federation of Anglers is properly consulted in that process.
      I welcome the support of the hon. Member for Romsey (Sandra Gidley) for the Bill. She also raised smoking cessation services. Several hon. Members have seen the Bill as part of a package, and they are right. Zyban is now available on prescription, and 40 per cent. of the prescriptions issued for it are free. The evidence is, therefore, that we are reaching the poorest communities, which are targeted by tobacco companies to promote their products. My hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (James Purnell) raised an important issue about his constituency and the impact on employment of measures to reduce smoking. He made a good point about the need for proper transitional provisions for retraining, reskilling, diversification and ensuring that people can get into other forms of employment.
      The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Flook), who is no longer in his place—I understand that he had another
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      engagement—asked about negative advertising, which I dealt with earlier. If the effect of negative advertising is to promote a tobacco product, it will be caught by the prohibition. The crucial question will be: what is the effect of the advertising? My hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Judy Mallaber) made a passionate and committed contribution to the debate. I had the pleasure of reading the speech that she made on Second Reading, and it was one of the most persuasive speeches that I have read. It was based on the real experiences of people in her constituency, particularly those of young people. She rightly raised the issue of the cost to the national health service of picking up the pieces as a result of tobacco promotion in this country over many years.
      We have seen the true colours of the Opposition this evening. They will the ends but not the means, and they are afraid to make the hard choices that are the test of any Government. I also believe that they are out of step with public opinion in this country. Sixty per cent. of the people support an advertising ban, and 70 per cent. of smokers want to give up. The Opposition are also out of step with the rest of the world.
      A worldwide convention on tobacco control is taking place in Geneva today. Doctors from every part of the world have joined to present a manifesto intended to ensure an end to misleading claims that some cigarettes are safer than others, and an end to all tobacco advertising. They want clear, informative health warnings on every packet of cigarettes. They want non-smokers to be protected from tobacco smoke, and they want tobacco taxes to be increased. World opinion says that we should end tobacco advertising.
      I genuinely think that the Opposition are clinging to the myth that a ban on advertising, sponsorship, brand-sharing, coupons and free gifts is not justified by the evidence. We have proved here today that stopping advertising and promotion will help to save lives.
      If the Tories are genuine in their desire to change, to reflect the views of people in this country today and to speak up for the most vulnerable in society, they will have to think carefully about how they vote. They must think about the children drawn into addiction at the age of nine or 10. They must think about the teenagers who are bombarded with images of glamour and macho dynamic sports. They must think about people living on low incomes in poor communities such as mine, who proportionately spend far more on cigarettes than better-off people do. They must think about pregnant mothers whose smoking damages not just themselves but their babies. All those people are vulnerable—vulnerable to the predatory actions of the tobacco companies that have to promote their products knowing that they maim and kill, just to maintain their profits. They made £3 billion in pre-tax profits last year.
      Tonight's vote will be very revealing. It will show whose side the Opposition are on. If they are really on the side of the vulnerable in this country they will not merely abstain, but support the Bill and ask every other Member to take that positive action.
      Question put and agreed to.
      Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, without amendment.

      EUROPEAN COMMUNITY DOCUMENTS
      Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 119(9) (European Standing Committees),

      EU ACTION PLAN ON DRUGS
      That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 10207/01, Commission Communication of the implementation of the European Union Action Plan on Drugs (2000–2004); welcomes the mid-term review of the plan; and urges that it should be revised to ensure that priority is given to achievable, timebound targets that will contribute measurably to the European Union's contribution to the fight against drug abuse and trafficking.—[Jim Fitzpatrick.]
      Question agreed to.

      DELEGATED LEGISLATION
      Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(6) (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation),

      NORTHERN IRELAND
      That the draft Local Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Order 2002, which was laid before this House on 11th July, be approved. —[Jim Fitzpatrick.]
      Question agreed to.

      Urban Design (Crime)
      Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Jim Fitzpatrick.]
      8.2 pm
      David Wright: I am pleased to be able to speak about a subject that is not just close to my heart—given my background in urban regeneration—but crucially to communities throughout our towns and cities.
      The quality of urban design is important for many reasons, but perhaps the main reason is the fact that well-designed urban environments promote a sense of self-worth. I want to focus on the potential of good urban design to reduce crime and promote the creation of sustainable communities where people want to live, work, shop and enjoy their leisure time.
      I believe that if people have a well-designed neighbourhood that is well maintained they will treat it with respect, and will endeavour to police it themselves. They will create an atmosphere that tells criminals "You are not welcome here." If an area is poorly designed and poorly maintained, however, people will respond to their environment in a negative way and will accept decline as being the natural trend. As I said earlier, people derive a sense of their own self-worth from the condition of the environment around them: their aspirations for themselves and their families are shaped by their locality.
      In terms of general principles, our objective as a Government must be to encourage the creation of physical environments that are conducive to the overall security of communities. To do that, we need to examine some of the dynamics of modern urban living and adapt our approach accordingly. Increasingly nowadays, geographical communities are breaking down and being replaced by communities of interest. People now have a series of social contacts that are not necessarily linked to the location of their homes. Friends from work, for example, often live many miles away, but they see more of them than they do of their neighbours.
      People do not have as much contact with their neighbours as they used to, which creates a sense of isolation in communities. More people are living alone as well, and many do not speak to their neighbours at all. A friend of mine once told me that he was more likely to hear the voice of Nelson Mandela on television that evening than to hear the voice of his neighbour.
      Those changes in social infrastructure are compounded by the poor design of many neighbourhoods, which at worst encourage crime and at best fail to provide any deterrents. I also believe that some people nowadays have expectations that are unachievable in relation to quiet enjoyment of their homes. That is difficult for many to acknowledge, but we must understand that our society is changing. People often do not want their children to play a long way from their homes; they want them to play in the street outside. Although they may not like it, people must accept that that is a growing trend.
      Why is the issue important? Antisocial behaviour and crime on estates are the number one issue in my advice surgery and in my postbag. There is a feeling that many estates are, in the words of Telford residents, "out of

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      control", and gangs of predominantly young people are behaving in an increasingly lawless manner. The fear of crime is of course more significant than its incidence in most cases, but the quality and structure of the local environment is a major contributory factor in the level of fear.
      The amount of police cover available in many areas will never meet the needs of local communities, and recent research by the National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders has shown that closed-circuit television is not necessarily the panacea that many think it to be. Effective design that reduces the incidence of crime and the fear of it is not a luxury today, but a necessity.
      It is easy to highlight practical design problems in parts of my constituency that lead to crime and the fear of it. Telford contains a number of housing estates built in the 1960s and early 1970s with the Radburn layout. On those estates, the housing and street pattern is the reverse of the traditional layout, with vehicular access to the rear of the property and pedestrian access to the front. Residents cannot see their vehicles once they have parked them, and unless they fence off their front gardens they merge into the wider public realm.
      The access-ways on those estates are a maze, and public space is ill defined. The planting is often overgrown, and makes pedestrian routes through the estates dark and unwelcoming. Local facilities—shops and community centres—are provided in small arcades that are themselves visually unattractive and at night are literally steel-shuttered bunkers.
      Some of the potential solutions to those problems are just common sense. I am thinking of the creation of defensible space, which I will return to shortly; the promotion of mixed-use development, often with higher densities of housing, so that areas in towns do not close at 5.30 pm and become no-go zones; the creation of distinct neighbourhoods in housing areas with their own character, or legibility as the professionals like to call it, so that people begin to recognise and associate with their neighbours again; and the removal of unwanted areas of public open space through, for example, the incorporation of rear access ways into gardens, better lighting, and better allocation of pedestrian space.
      Those things sound so simple, but on many estates throughout Britain they have not been achieved. We are not seeing significant improvements in the physical environment.
      The design of new housing is obviously important. Design features that reduce crime need to be incorporated—for example, doors and windows overlooking the street and public spaces to provide natural surveillance opportunities. Developers need to consider that when submitting proposals to planning authorities. However, the issue does not relate exclusively to the design of new homes; in fact, most problems occur in existing residential environments. The refurbishment of homes needs to be done with crime-reduction principles in mind, and as much attention needs to be paid to the external street scene as to the fabric of the properties.
      So how can we move forward? I want to recommend four key areas of action. First, we need to ensure more cross-departmental working at national level,
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      particularly between the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and the Home Office. Designing out crime should be a core activity in regeneration initiatives, and should be measured in terms of project outputs. Government should at an early stage consider consolidating the complex array of legislation relating to the design, management and use of the street. That can be coupled with the development of public realm strategies, which should bring together all the players involved in designing the urban environment. Tackling crime and antisocial behaviour can form a cornerstone of that work. The excellent homezone initiative that is being rolled out across the whole country, including in Woodside in my constituency, could be used as a starting point and pilot for much of this work.
      Secondly, communities should be encouraged to work together to resolve problems of crime and antisocial behaviour. I would particularly like to compliment the Urban Design Alliance, which is supported by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and English Partnerships, for its work on the placecheck initiative. That initiative encourages local people to identify problems in their own neighbourhoods and develop practical solutions. Much of the work being done in this area by the Institution of Civil Engineers and the Design Council is also excellent. Local parish councils can play a particularly important role in drawing out community perspectives and providing seedbed funding for local initiatives. A number of parish councils in my area have been particularly good at drawing up parish plans. St. George's and Priorslee parish councils are leaders in this area.
      Thirdly, local authorities should vigorously apply crime prevention criteria when evaluating planning applications. That is a material consideration. The planning system must be used to generate attractive and easily managed environments. There is no excuse for local authorities, as the planning guidance is already in place. Circular 5/94, PPG 1, PPG 6 and PPG 12 all contain guidance on addressing crime through the planning system. Local community safety partnerships are beginning to move these issues up the agenda in many areas, and the police flagship scheme "Secured by Design" is extremely important.
      However, I feel that the services being offered by police architectural liaison officers are often seen in the police service and locally as a luxury add-on and not a fundamental tool through which to reduce crime. Government, local authorities, various agencies and players and the police service need to put that right.
      That links to my fourth point, which is that developers need to ensure that designing out crime is at the centre of their work. It is not a fringe activity, whose principles can be discarded once projects are on site.
      Those are the four key areas of work that I hope the Minister will consider this evening and in coming weeks and months.
      Rob Marris: My hon. Friend is an expert in this area, having spent many years

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      working on local authority housing. Could he help me in my constituency? A couple of estates have the Radburn layout, which he has explained to us.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. I remind the hon. Member that he should address the Chair.
      Rob Marris: I beg your pardon, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was hoping that my hon. Friend could explain what could be done in older areas of terraced housing. There are some excellent initiatives in my constituency on alley gating, some of which have been funded through the Government's new deal for communities. Is there anything else that could be done in older, terraced areas? I know that they are not as prevalent in my hon. Friend's constituency, but he is an expert.
      David Wright: I thank my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. One of the key things is to close off access points, as is being done in parts of his constituency. The main problem with that is the mixed ownership pattern in terraced streets. Many people have purchased their home with the right to gain access at the rear of the property, and they often do not want to give that up. It is up to the people in those streets and communities to come together and reach agreement about how to manage rear access ways. With common agreement, closure of access ways can be achieved. The Government have recently issued additional guidance on the closure of rights of way in urban areas, and local authorities should consider those issues carefully.
      The issue of designing out crime in neighbourhoods is not new. In the early 1990s, the Conservative Government funded a project called the design improvement controlled experiment.
      Mr. Tom Watson: My hon. Friend will be aware that there was a DICE project on the Durham estate in my constituency. Despite initially giving great hope to the community, it is now popularly considered a failure because the community buy-in and response to the proposals was inadequate. Does he agree that the role of elected councillors is vital in designing out crime? They amplify the voice of a community. In that ward in the past 20 years, my constituents have been miserably let down by their three Liberal Democrat councillors.
      Mr. Stephen Pound: 'Twas ever thus.
      David Wright: As my hon. Friend says, 'twas ever thus. My hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Watson) will be aware that I did some work on that project, which I shall refer to in a moment. As he rightly says, one of the key issues is to ensure that communities buy into those initiatives. It is not just about change to the physical environment.
      Professor Alice Coleman led the DICE initiative, and I worked on one of the projects in the west midlands. The concept involved the redesign of council estates to reduce the incidence of crime. Much of the work was good, but it did not address some of the underlying socio-economic problems that people in deprived neighbourhoods face. The simple fact is that designing out crime needs to be part of a wider approach to
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      regeneration: it cannot stand alone. Investment in the social infrastructure of areas is as important as investment in the fabric.
      The architect Oscar Newman spent a considerable time working on issues relating to urban design and its impact on crime, and he particularly focused on the theory of defensible space. That process involves reassigning the perceived ownership of residential space, thus allowing residents to assert control over their environment. Newman said:
      "Once residents re-establish control of their environment the criminal is isolated because his turf is removed".
      How right he was. That seems to me an excellent statement of intent for future design in relation to crime reduction.
      In closing, I say to the Government and all the agencies involved in urban regeneration and design that we should use the design process to give people their areas back and communicate to people that we care about their environment and about them.
      8.17 pm
      The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Tony McNulty): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (David Wright) on securing this debate and raising this important issue. I also congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) and for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Watson) on their insightful comments. My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West referred to alley gating, which, together with local councils, we are trying to do something about, and my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, East tutted and made telling comments about the failure of Liberal Democrat councils. Such comments are all too frequent, and sadly that is an experience that we all know only too well from our own constituencies.
      I would also echo the comments made about the experience of my hon. Friend the Member for Telford in regeneration and urban design. Recently, I was in Sandwell where he did much of his work, and he was still fondly and lovingly regarded by all in West Bromwich. Like many hon. Members, my hon. Friend understands that regeneration has for too long been separated from urban design and many of the other areas to which he referred. If the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister does anything, it will be to ensure that regeneration, housing, planning and designing out crime are all part of one key policy, which is to build and sustain our vibrant communities. That cannot be an afterthought or an add-on; it must be rooted into plans for regeneration at the start of the process. For most of the summer I have been visiting places around the country. I do not want to be less than generous to the architectural profession, but it seems to me that in the 1960s and 1970s, architects up and down the country were awarded prizes for designing crime in rather than designing crime out. I have been through a number of dark alleyways abutting railway stations, as well as walkways and covered ways around a variety of estates, which are beyond belief, although any fool could tell that they would be dens of iniquity and criminality. Even though much money from the public purse has been spent by a range of councils from all parties to design out crime after architects designed it in, such places are a sight to behold.

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      The Government are fully committed to tackling crime and the fear of crime, and I want to return to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Telford made about social capacity, social capital and designing out crime not being sufficient of themselves. They must be part of a wider context and a wider policy framework. Designing out crime and tackling the fear of crime must be the key to the regeneration programme for our urban areas and to producing sustainable communities.
      We are spending more money than ever on crime reduction initiatives. For example, over the past three years through the crime reduction programme, we have invested more than £340 million in 1,470 projects to build on proven approaches to tackling local crime problems and to develop evidence of what works.
      Our plans also mean more police and more modern and efficient police forces throughout the country. The Police Reform Act 2002 contains measures to create a police service that will be flexible, responsive and in a better position to give local communities the ability to live free from crime and the fear of crime.
      As my hon. Friend the Member for Telford said, we are developing and mobilising our partnerships with local authorities, agencies, private industry and community groups to deliver crime solutions that work for local people. If the solutions do not have the ownership and buy-in—for want of some other, far less clumsy phrase—of the local community, they will not work. That is the point that my hon. Friend made. We are working across the Government effectively to focus our efforts on the shared goal of community safety and neighbourhood renewal.
      Rob Marris: The Minister has mentioned a number of partnerships which, laudably, the Government are setting up and getting involved in to tackle this important issue. Have they had a chance to tackle the architectural profession, to which he has referred, in terms of its training and awareness of those issues? If so, will he say a few words about that?
      Mr. McNulty: If my hon. Friend will bear with me, I have plenty of nice words to say about the architectural profession as well, but at least part of the legacy of previous architects is there for us all to see.
      As my hon. Friend the Member for Telford said, the planning system also has its part to play in tackling crime. While good planning alone cannot solve the problem of crime, its contribution, when co-ordinated with other measures, can be significant. Well-designed developments can reduce the fear of crime, make crime harder to commit and increase the risk of detection, but once a development is complete, the main opportunity to incorporate crime prevention measures has been lost. Much has been done subsequently in many estates to build out and design out crime, but that is far more expensive and disruptive than designing out crime at the start of the process. The Government want community safety not to be seen as an optional add-on, but to be integrated in the design of new developments.
      As my hon. Friend the Member for Telford said, we have already produced Government guidance on planning out crime that sends out hard-hitting messages.
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      Crime prevention can be a material consideration—in English, a relevant factor—when local planning authorities consider planning applications, and it must be considered when reviewing their development plans.
      To be entirely fair, much of local government, certainly in its latter-day initiatives such as unitary development plans, is taking designing out crime and its crucial importance in the pre-development stage far more seriously. Initial research shows that incorporating crime reduction features in buildings and environments at the planning stages reduces crime. For example, a 2000 Home Office study of the effects of the principles behind "Secured by Design", which is promoted by police forces throughout the country, showed that burglary levels in homes built to the "Secured by Design" standard in West Yorkshire are 30 per cent. lower than in non-standard homes. There is tangible evidence of what my hon. Friend the Member for Telford has chosen to highlight in the debate—this is a serious matter—and it does work.
      We have therefore stressed how important it is for local planning authorities to take advice on developments from police architectural liaison officers at an early stage. That is especially important where there is potential to eliminate or reduce crime, such as in new housing estates. Much of what my hon. Friends have said involves existing estates and housing developments, where such measures are equally important. In too many instances, however, criminals' work has been made far too easy and people's lives have been blighted unnecessarily, so the Government still need to take further action.
      My hon. Friends the Members for Telford and for Wolverhampton, South-West mentioned the Radburn design for housing estates, which may be seen in some of our new towns dating from the 1960s and 1970s, and elsewhere too. With access to property from front and rear, and limited natural surveillance, in some cases burglary has been more of a problem than it should have been. As my hon. Friends attested, residents have suffered.
      The Government can take action, which is why we are committed, as stated in the urban White Paper, to driving home the fact that crime prevention is and must remain a key planning objective. We will review and update the existing Government guidance, "Planning Out Crime", and produce a good practice guide to accompany the guidance. The guide will set out what works in designing out crime, and will be relevant to both local planning authorities and the police. It will also be practicable and robust in a wide range of circumstances.
      We have already underlined the key messages in "Planning out Crime" in planning policy notes as they have been reviewed and updated. My hon. Friend the Member for Telford alluded to that. For example, PPG 3, on housing, encourages local authorities to promote layouts that are safe and to take account of
      "crime prevention and community safety considerations".
      More recently, PPG 17, on sport, open space and recreation, published this summer, states that "security and personal safety" must be principles for planning new facilities and open space. My hon. Friend is right: we must consider not just design and layout on housing estates, new or old, but the spaces between the places

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      where people live and work, whether they are parks and green spaces or the wider urban realm and public domain in which we all live and work. I shall come to that in more detail shortly.
      The Government are committed to higher-quality design, including in residential developments, which is key to providing thriving, inclusive and sustainable communities. The updated guidance on crime will reinforce and complement existing guidance and good practice advice that we have already issued on housing design. My hon. Friend was robust in his lyrical description of at least the PPG titles to the extent that I might be knocking on his door for further planning expertise and advice. As he said, we already have clear planning guidance—PPG 1—on the importance of securing good design. We underlined in the urban White Paper the Government's commitment to good design, and we shall restate that in the promised update of PPG 1. Good design means safe as well as sustainable places.
      For my sins, I am, among other things, the design champion for the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. I am keen to ensure that good design is embedded in the ethos of my Department's work. My hon. Friend mentioned the Urban Design Alliance. I had the great pleasure of launching its urban design week, and I shall continue to work closely with it in all the good work that it does.
      To spread good practice, in 2000, something called the DTLR published with the Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment the guide "By Design", which looks at the tools local authorities have to help to deliver better design and how to use them effectively. Last September, we published "Better Places to Live", a companion guide to PPG 3, which provides sound, practical guidance on how the planning system can help to achieve quality residential environments. It emphasises that by giving attention to the urban design principles and approaches that underpin successful housing such as safety, community, attractive and clearly defined public and private spaces, the quality of housing layout and design can be improved and everyone benefits.
      Equally, high-quality, accessible and safe urban parks and green spaces rely on good design. The recent urban green spaces taskforce report highlighted the need for a design-led approach in providing new, and improving existing, green spaces. Green spaces and parks are as important as spaces on estates. We will be launching our response to the taskforce's report later this month at the urban summit on 31 October to 1 November in Birmingham; tickets are available at a very reasonable price, if there are any left.
      For my sins, I am also the Minister with responsibility for parks and green spaces. I work with the Minister for Social Exclusion, who leads for the Department on the cross-cutting review that has just been concluded on open spaces. My hon. Friend the Member for Telford is right: unless we tackle the urban realm, open spaces, parks and green spaces on a cross-governmental basis, taking account of the concerns of other Departments such as the Home Office and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, schemes will not be as
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      successful. Our conclusions from the cross-cutting review will form part of our wider response at the urban summit.
      As my hon. Friend said, home zones can also play a key role in improving the quality of life in residential streets. By reorganising the road space to strike a better balance between the needs of drivers and others, principally pedestrians, there is scope to engender more of a sense of place and community. I cannot remember whether it was my hon. Friend the Member for Telford or my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West who said that all this is very good but if it is not accompanied by a real sense of pride and ownership, recapturing the essence of what our communities are about, it will not be as effective as it should be.
      Through good design we can secure safe neighbourhoods where people want to live, which are well connected to an inclusive town, city or locality. Modern practices in urban design are being brought forward through local strategic partnerships. In many cases, crime and community safety are key priorities.
      It is not rocket science. In some instances, it is simply about better lighting—lighting that is more thought through. It is about imagining what a walkway or hidden path would be like late at night in an ill-lit environment. My hon. Friend the Member for Telford will know that, in Telford, English Partnerships is working in partnership with the council, the Housing Corporation and the regional development agency on the redevelopment of the Woodside estate, which will embrace current policy on urban design and designing out crime. I am keen that the same principles apply also to the millennium community proposed for East Ketley.
      I think that it was a constituent of the Deputy Prime Minister who told him on one occasion, "I love living here but not like this." That goes to the heart of the problem of designing out crime and recapturing and reclaiming our communities from the criminal and those who would indulge in antisocial behaviour.
      Most crime is opportunistic. Design principles based, frankly, on common sense, such as encouraging natural surveillance or providing defensible space, can help to improve an area's security for both people and property, and defend communities and areas against the opportunistic criminal, which is crucial. There is no reason why community safety and crime prevention should not be central concerns for local authorities when exercising their planning responsibilities and every reason why they should.
      In the three or four months since I have been in this position, one of the most impressive schemes for me, which has made a tangible difference and is tangential to what we are talking about—designing out crime and the fear of crime—has been our programme for street and community wardens. Almost wherever I go, they instantly attract a sense of ownership and pride back to local communities and allow people to reclaim streets that previously they would not walk down at all. They are not policing on the cheap or special constables in different T-shirts or uniforms. As with designing out crime, the ethos behind street and community wardens

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      is about reclaiming our space for our communities, giving people back a sense of ownership and pride, which is important in developing social fabric and capacity.
      Of course local authorities should be careful that they do not step beyond what they can legitimately pursue under the planning Acts, but implement policies that make real improvements to the quality of people's lives. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Telford for
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      drawing this matter to the attention of the House. It is a serious matter. I also thank my hon. Friends the Members for Wolverhampton, South-West and for West Bromwich, East for their comments, which I shall take on board too. My hon. Friend the Member for Telford can be assured that I have taken note of the serious concerns that he has raised and look forward to meeting him on this and other issues such as English Partnerships in the very near future.
      Question put and agreed to.
      Adjourned accordingly at twenty-six minutes to Nine o 'clock.