Commons Sitting of 12 February 2002

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  PRIVATE BUSINESS

    MERSEY TUNNELS BILL (By ORDER)
    Order for Second Reading read.
    To be read a Second time on Tuesday 26 February.

  PRIVATE MILITARY COMPANIES: OPTIONS FOR REGULATION
  Resolved,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, That she will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House a Return of a Paper, entitled Private Military Companies: Options for Regulation.—[Mrs. McGuire.]

Oral Answers to Questions
  SCOTLAND
  The Secretary of State was asked—
  SCOTLAND

    Dalmuir Credit Union
    Tony Worthington: If she will make a statement about her visit to Clydebank to open the new premises of Dalmuir credit union. [32332]
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mrs. Helen Liddell): Dalmuir credit union is an excellent example of the success of the credit union movement. Everyone has a right to financial services, which are a key tool in the fight against poverty. At Dalmuir, the Scottish principles of self-help and thrift are plainly to the fore in one of the most successful community credit unions ever.
    Tony Worthington: We were grateful to the Secretary of State for coming to open the credit union, which marks the arrival of the credit union movement in a very different way. Since she came, 85 extra members a month have been added to the credit union's membership, which now totals 5,500, and it has share capital of £3.7 million. It is easily the largest community-based credit union in the United Kingdom. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, alongside the universal bank in the Post Office and
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    other Government measures, the credit union is a powerful means of tackling poverty and increasing social cohesion?
    Mrs. Liddell: I agree wholeheartedly. Of my many engagements, that visit was probably one of the more successful. I was able to meet people whom I had not seen for quite some time, and the warmth of the response was outstanding. With my hon. Friend, I pay tribute to Rose Dorman, the doyenne of the UK credit union movement. To a large extent, it is her vision that has made that credit union so successful.
    The fight against financial exclusion is important. Most Members of Parliament can pay their utility bills by direct debit, thereby reducing their bills, but people who are very poor often do not have bank accounts, so access to financial services is often a guarantee of lower bills. Conservative Members may mock, but they have never had to deal with poverty to the extent that the Government have.
    Mr. Archy Kirkwood: The Secretary of State is right to say that credit unions play a valuable role in protecting ordinary people who are financially disadvantaged from the likes of loan sharks. The hon. Member for Clydebank and Milngavie (Tony Worthington) is right to say that Dalmuir credit union is a model. As one of the biggest credit unions in the country, it should be used as an example for others.
    The Financial Services Authority has done a lot to protect members, which should encourage people, but although the Scottish Executive have made some quite encouraging statements about developing and supporting credit unions in future, we have not yet seen much of substance. The people of Clydebank would probably benefit from the right hon. Lady's working with her partners in Edinburgh to get further action as soon as possible.
    Mrs. Liddell: I agree with the hon. Gentleman's general sentiments about the value of credit unions, but it was only a few months ago that, with Jackie Baillie, then the Scottish Minister for Social Justice, I opened another credit union in Edinburgh's Leith area. It is important to recognise that the Scottish Executive and the Government work hand in hand.
    The FSA has now taken over responsibility for the regulation of credit unions, and a new wave of regulation comes in from 1 July 2002 to ensure that credit unions have the base of protection that other financial services sector companies have. In addition, the Treasury has just finished a consultation exercise on ways in which the credit union movement can be given further assistance; an announcement will be made shortly.
    I take this opportunity to congratulate Scotland's banking sector, which has worked closely with the Government to ensure that we increase banking opportunities for all. The banks have been instrumental in giving a great deal of support to the credit union movement, despite the fact that some in their number regard credit unions as competitors.

    BP Grangemouth
    Mr. Michael Connarty: What discussions she has had with the Scottish Executive's Minister for Enterprise regarding the future of BP at Grangemouth. [32333]
    The Minister of State, Scotland Office (Mr. George Foulkes): I have regular discussions with all the Executive Ministers on a range of issues, although not all of them appear in my diary. My hon. Friend will be aware that I met BP shortly after its announcement in November to discuss the future.
    Mr. Connarty: I am sure that my hon. Friend shares with the people of Grangemouth and the communities of central Scotland the anguish that they felt as 1,000 people were called into the offices of BP's management to be told that, despite the service that they had given, they were now on the scrap heap. I seek an assurance that the ministerial taskforce, which I have been invited to join, and the partnership action for continuing employment group, which has set up an office in my constituency, will focus on making sure that those people are not put on the scrap heap.
    When this is all over, will my hon. Friend ensure that that pain and anguish was not for nothing? There is a rumour going around of the impending closure of one UK refinery, which would make the UK a net importer of petrol. Will he fight to ensure that it is not Grangemouth?
    Mr. Foulkes: I commend my hon. Friend and his colleague, the Member of the Scottish Parliament for the area, Cathy Peattie, on their assiduous work in defending the interests of their constituents who are working at BP, and all the families involved. I am pleased that my hon. Friend has been able to join the taskforce. I talked to Wendy Alexander about that and other aspects of BP at Grangemouth, and I shall continue to have discussions with her. I have also discussed with the Health and Safety Executive its concerns about Grangemouth, and I am willing to talk to it further if my hon. Friend would find that helpful.
    I am surprised by what my hon. Friend says. He will recall from our meeting with BP that the purpose of the downsizing at Grangemouth was to safeguard the remaining jobs in the long term. In the light of what my hon. Friend says, I shall seek a further meeting with BP to discuss the matter.
    Mr. Michael Weir: Given the potential of BP axing 40 per cent. of the work force at Grangemouth and given the problems of job losses in key areas of the Scottish economy, such as Grangemouth, does the Minister share the Secretary of State's complacent view that the Scottish economy is performing well? Will he now take seriously the problems of Scottish industry?
    Mr. Foulkes: The House should compare the positive and constructive attitude of my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk. East (Mr. Connarty) with that of the Scottish National party. SNP Members remind me of carrion crows. They hover, waiting for a corpse, so that they can
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    pick up some political advantage from it. They will not be able to do that. The latest polls show that Scotland continues to reject the narrow nationalism of the SNP.
    Mr. Brian H. Donohoe: One of the problems that is faced by BP and others is a lack of tradesmen, especially pipe fitters. What representations has my hon. Friend made to the Scottish Executive about the training programme for tradesmen in Scotland?
    Mr. Foulkes: That is not a planted question. Heaven forfend. By a strange coincidence, not only did my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State discuss this issue with Transco, but I discussed it with Wendy Alexander when we met and launched the Clyde taskforce report. We are actively looking into the matter. I shall talk to my hon. Friend about it immediately after questions.
    Mr. Greg Knight: In these and other discussions, has the Minister made any assessment of what effect Labour's policies of more regulations, higher taxes, excessive fuel duties and oppressive congestion charging will have on the long-term future of BP and the oil industry generally? Is it not crystal clear that the continuation of those policies will lead to ever more job losses in Scotland?
    Mr. Foulkes: I invite the hon. Gentleman to come to Scotland. I will take him round and show him some things. He might like to know that there have been substantial new announcements in the oil industry in Scotland. In November, the Department of Trade and Industry gave approval for phase 2 of the Juno field, with 1,200 jobs underpinned, and for the first phase of the Clare field. In January, three new oilfields—Madoes, Mirren and Maclure—were approved. Those are all BP fields. I thought that the SNP Members were bad enough, but the Tories seem to want to trump the SNP in talking down Scotland. We will not let them do that.

    Friends of Scotland Initiative
    Mr. Iain Luke: How she estimates Scottish tourism will benefit from her recent friends of Scotland visit to the far east. [32334]
    Mr. Eric Joyce: What benefits for Scotland's oil and gas industries she expects to derive from her recent visit to the far east. [32338]
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mrs. Helen Liddell): My recent trip to south-east Asia was primarily trade related, but I had a useful meeting with the British Tourist Authority in Hong Kong to discuss how best to market Scotland. I also had many meetings with expatriate Scots and others who are enthusiastic supporters of the friends of Scotland initiative.
    While in China I also met senior executives of oil and gas companies in south-east Asia to promote the skills of Scottish-based companies acquired through North sea development. I am confident that there are many opportunities for Scottish companies in south-east Asia.
    Mr. Luke: I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer, and I compliment her on her persistent and

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    persuasive advocacy of Scotland's cause overseas. Does she agree that a vital element in bringing more tourists in from the far east and elsewhere is the creation and establishment of more direct international flights, both long and medium haul, into Scotland's airports. I hope that that will include Dundee airport, once the new departure lounges are completed.
    Mrs. Liddell: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. As he knows, I take a considerable interest in the issue of direct flights, and there has recently been a good response from Scottish airports. At Prestwick, for example, flight numbers are up by 18.6 per cent.; at Glasgow, they are up by 4.3 per cent.; and at Edinburgh, they are up by 10.2 per cent. Much of that is due to the expansion of direct flights by no-frills carriers. My hon. Friend is a persuasive advocate of more direct flights from Dundee airport, and secured an Adjournment debate on the subject. The refurbishment of the airport is important; I hope that with the expansion of the Ryanair fleet by up to 150 new aircraft, and the easyJet fleet by up to 75 new aircraft, there may be more flights from Dundee airport to international destinations.
    Mr. Joyce: My right hon. Friend will be aware that BP is a large employer in my constituency. What benefits can her recent visit to the far east bring to companies such as BP, which seek to exploit rising sun opportunities?
    Mrs. Liddell: My hon. Friend makes an important point. The oil and gas industry has many international opportunities, not least BP, which is the biggest British investor in mainland China. Whenever I look at the oil and gas industry, I am always conscious of the skills in the supply chain. I was impressed by a seminar that I addressed in mainland China which was attended by representatives of Scottish companies anxious to access the Chinese gas market. The Chinese Government wish to get more than 2.1 per cent. of their energy mix from natural gas; indeed, they want to get up to 10 per cent. We have the talents, skills and expertise; Scottish companies can benefit from that.
    John Thurso: Doubtless, the Secretary of State's efforts in the far east were well supported by the British Tourist Authority. Is she aware that the BTA's recent lead promotional document for overseas tourists, "Hidden Britain", fails to mention or refer to more than 50 per cent. of the land mass of Scotland? Does she concur with the chairman of VisitScotland, who suggested that the BTA be abolished and replaced with a tourism structure more responsive to the needs of devolution? Will she make representations in that regard to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport?
    Mrs. Liddell: The BTA has an important job marketing all the United Kingdom. Many people who come here do not come exclusively to visit one particular part of the UK. However, we must maximise our efforts to market Scotland, not just through the BTA, but in many other directions, not least joint corporate activity. It is important to recognise that the "Hidden Britain" map includes a number of Scottish sites. This morning, I learned of the preparation of a new initiative by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport for the golden jubilee which
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    will enhance the role that Scotland has played in the history of Her Majesty's 50-year reign and will be an important tool for marketing Scotland in 2002.
    Mr. Alex Salmond: Does the Secretary of State realise how impressed we all were to read that no sooner had she got off the plane from the far east than she was busy hosting Burns suppers before going off to Wales to boost Scottish tourism? Does she accept that the 2.5 per cent. decline in visitor numbers to Scotland last year, compared with a 10 per cent. rise in Ireland, is the result of serious issues such as the high pound, high petrol prices and under-resourced visitor agencies? Will the Government tackle those significant issues affecting Scotland's major industry, or is it just a case of "c'est la vie"?
    Mrs. Liddell: There the hon. Gentleman goes again, talking Scotland down. No Government Member takes any lessons about work load from him; he voted in 12 per cent. of Divisions in the last Parliament, and only managed to pass the 50 per cent. mark in this Parliament. I have outvoted every member of the Scottish National party in this Parliament, and shall continue to argue for Scotland in every part of the country and in every part of the world. I shall do so taking pride in Scotland, not talking it down.
    Mr. David Marshall: Scotland's tourist links with the far east are important, but perhaps even more important are her links with the far west. Recently, Glasgow airport suffered a number of blows, with the withdrawal of many services to and from Canada. Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that she will do all that she can to ensure that those direct daily services are resumed as soon as possible?
    Mrs. Liddell: My hon. Friend has considerable experience of transport matters. There has been a downturn in activity from the United States as a direct consequence of 11 September. It requires much greater involvement on the part of all of us to ensure that direct flights are maintained. In December I hosted a summit of the airline industry in Edinburgh to talk about the future of daily direct flights. There has been some encouraging news since then, but it is essential that both the Government and the Scottish Executive continue to work with the airline industry to improve the number of flights, and in particular that we take every opportunity to market the positive story of Scotland. Only the Government will do that; the Opposition are united in talking Scotland down.
    Mrs. Jacqui Lait: I am glad to see that BAA and Six Continents hotels were represented in the group that travelled with the right hon. Lady to the far east, and I hope that there will be a consequent increase in the number of people visiting Scotland. However, from her busy diary and in an attempt to talk Scotland up, will she give us some idea what engagements she is expecting to attend to boost tourism? Will she confirm that she is no longer seeking to attract inward investment to Scotland, in line with Wendy Alexander's new policy of supporting only indigenous Scottish businesses?
    Mrs. Liddell: Once the hon. Lady has rather more experience of Scotland, she may discover that that is not

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    the position of the Scottish Executive. She mentions my diary. I am happy to speak about my diary and the fact that I met a number of businesses in Hong Kong that are anxious to develop in Britain. I was fortunate enough to meet Mr. Li Ka-shing, who has already brought 600 new jobs to Glasgow. I learned this morning that already £1.5 million of new orders have been placed with one Scottish company as a consequence of that visit.
    As a Minister, I have found it a great benefit to take time for preparation. Preparation is extremely important. Notwithstanding that preparation, I have managed to vote in 71 per cent. of all Divisions in the House. The hon. Lady has managed only 54 per cent. of Divisions. What has she been doing with her time? Her constituents deserve to know.

    Biotechnology Companies
    Dr. Ian Gibson: What progress has been made in the development of biotechnology companies in Scotland. [32335]
    The Minister of State, Scotland Office (Mr. George Foulkes): In biotechnology, Scotland is a world leader. It is a clear success story—the sector is well on track to double in size during the period 1999 to 2003.
    Dr. Gibson: My hon. Friend will be aware that the biotechnology industry is notorious for overhyping its achievements. Is not the real picture in Scotland one of small companies, few nominations on the stock exchange, few spin-outs from universities and a lack of Government investment in research and development? The biotechnology industry needs much more investment to reach the standards that we see around one city in England, called Cambridge, or am I wrong?
    Mr. Foulkes: I hesitate to call such a distinguished doctor of philosophy wrong, but I think I will. Two of the top three recent biotech private financings in Europe were for Scottish companies: Cyclacel, which is run by a Nobel laureate and is doing fantastic work on cancer, raised £35 million, and Strakan raised £30.5 million. The 30 per cent. growth per annum is almost twice the European average. There are 420 organisations involved in biotechnology in Scotland, 24,400 people are employed by the industry, and there are 37 university departments and research institutes. However, as I am willing to listen and to learn, a week on Friday I have arranged to meet 12 of the leading representatives of the biotechnology industry in Scotland, and I will discuss with them the point raised by my hon. Friend.
    Bob Spink: What is the Minister's view of the impact on biotechnology companies and business development in Scotland generally of the massive increase in the burden of regulation that the Government have imposed on business in Scotland? Does he think that that is positive, and that I, like the hon. Member for Norwich, North (Dr. Gibson), am wrong?
    Mr. Foulkes: I have many meetings day after day, week after week, and that is not the first matter that is raised with me by people in Scotland. There are several other important issues. Scotland would not have twice the European average growth in biotechnology if it was
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    over-regulated compared with other countries. If the picture that the hon. Gentleman paints were accurate, we would not have such development in Scotland. Once again, he is trying to pretend something that is not true. Like his Front-Bench colleagues and the Scottish nationalists, he is joining in the chorus of talking Scotland down.

  The Advocate-General was asked—
  ADVOCATE-GENERAL

    Devolution Issues
    Mr. George Galloway: What devolution issues have been raised in the last month under the Scotland Act 1998. [32357]
    The Advocate-General for Scotland (Dr. Lynda Clark): Since 1 January 2002, 19 devolution issue cases have been intimated to me. They all raised points under article 6 of the European convention on human rights, which protects the right to a fair trial.
    Mr. Galloway: But has not the Advocate-General considered the extraordinary story of the Scottish police showering Anthony Gauci, the key prosecution witness in the Lockerbie trial, with hunting, shooting and fishing holidays, five-star holidays—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I must stop the hon. Gentleman. That matter is sub judice. Under the sub judice rules, the Advocate-General should not respond to that question.

    European Court of Justice Cases
    Mr. Bill Tynan: If she will make a statement about recent European Court of Justice cases which have had an impact upon Scots law. [32359]
    The Advocate-General for Scotland (Dr. Lynda Clark): The European Court of Justice hears a large number of cases every year raising issues of Community law. Because Community law has a binding effect on the laws of member states, depending on the particular facts and circumstances of the case, any such judgments can have an impact on Scots law.
    Mr. Tynan: I thank my hon. and learned Friend for that comprehensive answer. She will be aware that in Hamilton, South the European Court of Justice is an important and topical subject. How many cases have emanated from Scotland and how many times has she appeared in the European Court of Justice?
    The Advocate-General: Very few cases from Scotland have gone to the European court of justice. The most recent such case is that of Booker Aquaculture, which concerned a reference from the Court of Session that asked the ECJ for a preliminary ruling on whether the right of property, as recognised by Community law, required that compensation be paid to farmers whose fish had to be destroyed under measures imposed by a Council directive for the control of diseases. Although some of

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    those cases and ruling are highly technical, my hon. Friend is right to think that they are important for his constituents.
    I have not yet had the opportunity to appear in the ECJ. I have the rights of audience and I hope that a suitable case will arise.
    Mr. Menzies Campbell: What criteria does the Advocate-General use for intervention in the Court of Session? She will be aware that in a recent case, the court was moved to criticise the fact that she had neither appeared nor been represented, although she had said that the case involved a matter of some importance in the context of her responsibilities. Precisely what criteria does she use in determining whether she should intervene?
    The Advocate-General: In the case to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman refers, one of the judges took a view with which I would beg to differ. The case concerned an interpretation of a United Kingdom statute. The law in Scotland was perfectly plain according to three judges, and the law in England and Wales was perfectly plain according to the House of Lords.
    In every case, I have to make a decision on what added value I can give as Advocate-General. I also have to decide whether it would be useful to use public money to extend a case as a result of my intervention. Every case turns on its own merits. I can advise the right hon. and learned Gentleman that I gave detailed consideration to this case before making a decision on intervention. As it happens, I intimated that I wished to consider intervention when I still had time to consider the case. [Interruption.] Such matters are complex—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Sometimes complex matters can be brief.

    Drugs Misuse
    Miss Anne McIntosh: Pursuant to her oral statement of 15 January, Official Report, column 143, by what means she has sought to clarify the position on the laws on the misuse of drugs in England and Wales. [32360]
    The Advocate-General for Scotland (Dr. Lynda Clark): In my reply to the hon. Lady last month, I was referring to the devolution issue case of Robert McIntosh, in which I appeared personally before the Privy Council last year. Brief it was not; it took a couple of days at least. The case concerned statutory assumptions as to the source of property, and the compatibility of those assumptions with human rights. The case was relevant to the law of England and Wales, because their legislation makes similar assumptions, which, at the same time, was subject to legal proceedings domestically—the Rezvi and Benjafield cases—and, in the European Court of Human Rights, the Phillips case. I am pleased to report that the Privy Council agreed that the Scottish legislation was compatible with human rights. That was a case in which I determined that it would be helpful to intervene.
    Miss McIntosh: As far as I know, Robert McIntosh is no relation of mine. To what extent can the
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    Advocate-General assure the House that the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 will continue to be interpreted in the way that it should be in England, Wales and Scotland? What discussions has she had with her opposite number who represents England and Wales in that regard? What added value does she believe that she brings to this process?
    The Advocate-General: The McIntosh case helped to clarify the law, particularly when the Privy Council overruled the decision of the Appeal Court in Scotland, which reached a different decision from that in the Benjafield case, for example. I am aware and concerned when similar cases to those in Scotland arise in England and Wales, and I shall take a great interest in Scottish cases to ensure that we reach a satisfactory end result.

  LORD CHANCELLOR'S DEPARTMENT
  The Parliamentary Secretary was asked—
  LORD CHANCELLOR'S DEPARTMENT

    Monmouth County Court
    Mr. Huw Edwards: If he will make a statement on the proposed closure of Monmouth county court. [32365]
    The Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department (Mr. Michael Wills): The Lord Chancellor has authorised the closure of Monmouth county court with effect from 1 April 2002. His decision followed a public consultation process and a detailed evaluation by the court service of the work load, facilities and services provided by courts in that area. Arrangements have been made for weekly hearings to take place in High Trees, a building in Chepstow owned by Monmouthshire county council, which is also used by the magistrates court.
    Mr. Edwards: There is great disappointment at the decision to close Monmouth county court, but there is also an acknowledgement that the current facilities in the shire hall are inadequate, and that there is no access for people with disabilities. Given that it is hoped that the shire hall will have a major refurbishment, will my hon. Friend consider returning the county court to that site, if it is in a decent state of repair, so that we can return the administration of justice to Monmouth after centuries of the fine administration of justice there?
    Mr. Wills: I can certainly give my hon. Friend some reassurance on that matter. I understand his intense concern, and that of his constituents, and I pay tribute to his campaigning on the matter. Unfortunately, we have not been able to arrange for hearings to be held in Monmouth in the same way that they have been arranged for Chepstow, because, at the moment, we cannot find a suitable venue in Monmouth that fulfils the requirements of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995—which comes into force in 2004—and that meets the security needs of the judges. Should that situation change and a suitable venue be found, of course we shall review the situation.
    Mr. Patrick McLoughlin: With regard to the closure of Monmouth county court and the Government's policy on court closure across the land, will the Minister bear it in mind that these decisions are

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    sometimes based on figures that suggest a saving, whereas the outcome turns out to be far more expensive, as was the case in Derbyshire, where the Lord Chancellor closed a number of magistrates courts and the cost is now substantially greater?
    Mr. Wills: I should be happy to see any detailed figures that the hon. Gentleman would care to provide me with. He is well aware, however, that the closure of magistrates courts is a matter for the magistrates courts committees, which make such decisions in accordance with the needs of their local area, but if he would like to write to me and provide me with more details, I should be happy to consider anything he sends me.

    Family Visitor Visas
    Fiona Mactaggart: If she will make a statement on appeals against refusals of visit visas to family members of UK residents. [32366]
    The Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department (Ms Rosie Winterton): This Government reinstated the right of appeal against refusals of visitor visas to family members of UK residents on 2 October 2000. In the 14 months since the introduction of the appeal right, the Immigration Appellate Authority received 4,975 appeals, 53 per cent. of which were successful at the adjudicator stage. The review report on the operation of the family visitor appeals scheme will be published shortly.
    Fiona Mactaggart: I thank the Minister for that reply. The high success rate for appellants in oral hearings—more than 70 per cent. in certain months—suggests that bad initial decisions were taken. What plans does she have to involve adjudicators in preparing information for entry clearance officers to improve the quality of first-stage decisions, so that families need not suffer the distress and expense of appealing against such decisions?
    Ms Winterton: My hon. Friend makes an important point. The review process will examine how the system works from start to finish, and I can assure her that we are working with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to establish the role that entry clearance officers should play and whether improvements can be made. We should also examine the information provided to applicants on first going to entry clearance posts and the advice to them on what information they should provide for those initial decisions.
    Mr. William Cash: Will the Minister take account of the fact that figures published last October, when the Government last made an announcement on the matter, showed a variation in successful appeals? In November 2000, 18 per cent. were successful, but 45 per cent. were successful in July 2001. Will she be good enough to explain how that can happen, and does not such variation demonstrate the need for greater coherence in the way that such decisions are taken and the criteria given to courts to enable them to reach sensible decisions?
    Ms Winterton: The whole point of what we are doing is to review the system and all such factors will be taken into account. For example, we are examining the differing
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    success rates of paper and oral appeals. We are looking at the process from start to finish, and as the Home Secretary said last week, the results will be announced shortly. They will take into account the various factors that I have outlined and the issues that the hon. Gentleman has raised.
    Miss Anne Begg: In constituencies such as Aberdeen, the full range of family members visit surgeries to discuss such matters, and in that respect I have noticed a difference. A relative who is affluent and owns property in their own country will probably be granted a visa first time, but it is very difficult for someone from an impoverished background to secure a visa, even on appeal. My experience therefore suggests a problem. It is far harder for those from poorer backgrounds to visit this country—they are often automatically rejected because they have no home to return to. Are the Government looking into that issue, and can such discrimination be eliminated from the visa system and the appeals system?
    Ms Winterton: The review will examine the way in which the system works and all aspects of it. Of course, legal help is available for people from poorer backgrounds to enable them to challenge initial decisions. None the less, I take on board my hon. Friend's point and I shall liaise with colleagues in other Departments to see whether anything can be done, perhaps through further research into the matter.
    Rev. Martin Smyth: Does the Minister agree that legal help is not always applicable, because the folk concerned cannot get in touch with a particular legal adviser and must chase around from one adviser to another? There is also the reverse problem, which affects people in this country who require visas to visit relatives in other countries. A constituent of mine has a scholarship to go to Africa in March, but is still waiting for a visa. Every time we contacted the authorities, we were told, "We will sort it out as soon as we can and when everything is complete." However, they told us as long ago as last November that everything was indeed complete. Nevertheless, there is still no visa.
    Ms Winterton: If the hon. Gentleman writes to me about the case he has raised, I will certainly look into it.
    Legal assistance can be channelled through the applicant's sponsor, which should make it easier for the applicant to gain access to such assistance. The sponsor's circumstances as well as those of the applicant will be taken into account.

    Magistrates (Warrington)
    Helen Jones: What progress has been made in appointing more people from the Warrington, North constituency to the magistracy in Warrington. [32370]
    The Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department (Mr. Michael Wills): There is no shortage of magistrates on the Warrington Bench; neither is there a shortage of magistrates from the Warrington, North constituency. However, there has been a slight decline in the number of magistrates from Warrington, North, from 59 per cent. of the total in 1997 to 57 per cent. now.

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    The local advisory committee is finding it harder to encourage people to put themselves forward to be magistrates in the Warrington area than in other areas of Cheshire. It has been working closely with the council and the press in an effort to encourage more people in the area to put themselves forward. Any help my hon. Friend can give will be warmly welcomed.
    Helen Jones: The problem in my constituency is recruitment from the poorer areas, which suffer the most crime. Is it not vital to the administration of justice for such areas to have representation on the Bench? Will the Minister consider running pilot projects to encourage people from those areas to apply, and also to help them with the interviewing process—or to establish why they do not get through the process when they do apply?
    Mr. Wills: The Department is deeply sensitive to those important points. We will shortly launch a national recruitment strategy that will take them all into account. I look forward to working with colleagues on these matters, and to making progress.
    Mr. John Burnett: I note that it is as difficult to find people with low incomes who are prepared to serve as magistrates in Warrington as it is to find such people elsewhere. It is very important for us to have a representative lay magistracy. Is the Department considering paying magistrates a reasonable sum, in Warrington and elsewhere, and appointing them for a period of, say, 10 years, which would not be renewable?
    Mr. Wills: Of course we must take account of financial loss when recruiting magistrates, and we do take it seriously, but there is no pressing evidence that potential magistrates are being deterred by financial hardship. There is nevertheless a great deal of concern about the issue, and we are looking into it. If it became apparent that there was a real, widespread problem, we would of course consider what research was needed to get to the bottom of it and what action should subsequently be taken.
    Obviously we shall look at all possible options for increasing diversity on the bench, in the context of our national recruitment strategy; but I fear that the hon. Gentleman's proposed option of fixed terms may not be our first port of call.

    Courthouse, Colchester
    Bob Russell: When he expects work to start on building the new courthouse at Colchester. [32371]
    The Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department (Mr. Michael Wills): It is planned that the work should start in early to mid-2004.
    Bob Russell: There is grave concern about the possibility that the introduction of the private finance initiative will cause the company involved to be more interested in profit than in the prestige of the building.
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    Can the Minister assure us that the PFI courthouse will be a building of which we can be proud, rather than just a profit generator for the company running it?
    Mr. Wills: As the hon. Gentleman's rhetoric suggests, he is well aware of the truth. The idea is to produce a new courthouse for Colchester, and a number of new courthouses throughout the country. No new courthouses have been built since 1992. The Department is currently supporting the building of 12 new courthouses, and I think that that is something of which we can all be proud.
    As the hon. Gentleman probably knows, the start of work on his courthouse will depend on the completion of the outline business case and, critically in the context of his question, on a demonstration on the basis of the public sector comparator that the project represents value for money. That is the key: value for money.

    Criminal Courts (Reorganisation)
    Mr. Stephen O'Brien: What estimates his Department has made of the costs of the proposals by Lord Justice Auld for reorganisation of the criminal courts in England and Wales; and if he will make a statement. [32373]
    The Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department (Mr. Michael Wills): Estimates of costs will be made in the light of decisions that will be taken following the consultation on the report of Lord Justice Auld, which ended on 31 January. As the hon. Gentleman is well aware, these decisions have not yet been taken and the Government will announce their conclusions by way of a White Paper in the spring.
    Mr. O'Brien: I thank the Minister for his answer. Given the patent confusion that exists, as we know from information found in a pub off St. James's park, what is driving the Government's response to the Auld report? Is it cost savings or the interests of justice?
    Mr. Wills: As the hon. Gentleman is well aware, our response to the Auld review is driven by our manifesto commitments and the results of the very wide consultation that we have just finished.

  The President of the Council was asked—
  PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL

    Royal Prerogative
    Jeremy Corbyn: What consideration he is giving to bringing the operation of the royal prerogative under parliamentary scrutiny. [32380]
    The President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Robin Cook): The royal prerogative is usually exercised by Ministers or on their advice. Ministers are accountable to Parliament for their decisions, but I am always open to constructive ideas on strengthening scrutiny.
    Jeremy Corbyn: I am rather disappointed with my right hon. Friend's reply. Given his reforming zeal to

    69
    make the Executive accountable to Parliament, I had hoped that, at the very least, the absolute power of kings, transferred to the absolute power of Ministers, would finally be brought to public account. Will my right hon. Friend bring forward proposals to ensure that every decision taken under the royal prerogative by the Prime Minister or any other Minister is openly and immediately reported to the House, open to debate and open to a vote before it can be taken to its completion? That would be a start in ensuring that democracy in Britain really works and that the Executive are accountable to the elected representatives of the people.
    Mr. Cook: I am sorry that my hon. Friend is disappointed. I thought that I had crafted an open and welcoming answer on which my hon. Friend could build. I repeat that Ministers are accountable to this place. There can be no question of the Prime Minister or any other Minister of the Crown acting under the royal prerogative in a way that is unacceptable to the House of Commons. They would be very quickly brought to book by the House, and rightly so.
    Mr. Greg Knight: Is the Leader of the House aware of the growing concern about the use of the royal prerogative by Ministers, particularly the Prime Minister? In view of almost daily revelations about lobbying, favours and cash for coronets, will the Leader of the House consider the introduction of an ethical Question Time so that we can look at the moral ethics of Ministers when they use the royal prerogative?
    Mr. Cook: I am not sure quite how that supplementary arises from the matter in hand. We had extended discussions on party funding in the last Parliament. It was, after all, this Government who introduced legislation to make sure that party funding is transparent, open and accountable and can be received only by those in Britain. We are pleased with what we have done to clean up the act of party funding. It is a matter of great regret that Conservative Members did nothing about it in their 18 years of power.
    Mr. Gordon Prentice: The Prime Minister's considerable powers rest largely on the royal prerogative. Why does he refuse to appear before the Select Committee on Public Administration to account for the decisions that he takes under those prerogative powers? I ask my right hon. Friend to intercede with the Prime Minister, ask him to break with precedent and come before the Public Administration Committee, where we will give him a gentle ride.
    Mr. Cook: I am greatly encouraged by my hon. Friend's reference to a gentle ride. I am sure that we can build on that for the future in his relations with the Prime Minister and other members of the Cabinet.
    As my hon. Friend rightly says, there is a clearly established precedent. No Prime Minister has ever appeared before any Select Committee, and it is difficult to see where it would stop once the Prime Minister had appeared before any one Select Committee. However, I remind my hon. Friend that the Prime Minister comes here every week for Question Time. Indeed, he has a better record of attendance at Question Time than either of his two predecessors.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS
  The Leader of the House was asked—
  HOUSE OF COMMONS

    Westminster Hall
    Fiona Mactaggart: If he will encourage the Select Committee on Modernisation of the House of Commons to review the layout of the Chamber in Westminster Hall. [32381]
    The Parliamentary Secretary, Privy Council Office (Mr. Stephen Twigg): The Modernisation Committee has to consider the Westminster Hall experiment in the course of this Session, and will gladly consider any representations that hon. Members wish to make about the layout of the Chamber, or any other matter.
    Fiona Mactaggart: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but I wish to encourage the Committee to consult more widely among Members. Other people may have shared my sense of surprise when, following an intervention from a Member—admittedly, a very senior one—the layout of Westminster Hall was suddenly changed. Many of us felt that the original layout was greatly preferable, and I want to ensure that there is proper consultation before we get stuck with the present arrangements.
    Mr. Twigg: I understand that many Members preferred the original arrangement, on the grounds that it provided for a more consensual approach to debate—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Many other Members clearly prefer the current arrangements. Both the original and the present arrangements were part of an experiment and, through the Modernisation Committee, we shall have the opportunity to review both parts of that experiment before deciding how to take things forward.
    Mr. Paul Tyler: Does the Minister accept that, partly because of its layout, Westminster Hall has been a triumphant success? [Interruption.] That is true despite the misgivings of a tiny minority of Conservatives—in fact I think that it is now a minority of one. The success is largely due to the more consensual atmosphere that has developed, and the fact that all Members can hold Ministers to account in Westminster Hall. Does the Minister think that there may be some lesson to be learned about the layout of this Chamber, which is clearly out of date and presents the entirely anachronistic fiction of a two-party confrontational conflict, which is no longer the case in the 21st century?
    Mr. Twigg: I shall tread carefully in answering that question; I do not know whether the Liberal Democrats are offering to sit in the Gallery, but we do not have a great deal of spare space in this Chamber at the moment. I welcome the fact that the Conservative party appears to have changed its mind about Westminster Hall; I understand from press reports today that it now accepts the idea. When Westminster Hall was first proposed,

    71
    the shadow Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth), described it as a godforsaken sideshow.
    Mr. Eric Forth indicated assent.
    Mr. Twigg: The right hon. Gentleman is nodding. He appears not to have changed his mind, but I understand that many other Conservative Members have changed theirs.
    Mr. Mark Lazarowicz: As the number of requests from Back-Bench Members for Adjournment debates in Westminster Hall is now much larger than the number of available slots, will my hon. Friend also consider the possibility of recommending an increase in the time available there, to reflect the clear popularity of the innovation among Members?
    Mr. Twigg: In the memorandum that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House submitted to the Modernisation Committee shortly before Christmas, he set out plans for providing more opportunities for shorter debates, both on the Floor of the House and elsewhere. I am sure that the Select Committee will bear my hon. Friend's representations in mind as its work proceeds.
    Mr. Nicholas Winterton: It is extremely dangerous to disagree with the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), but may I do so? As one of those who has the duty of chairing sittings in Westminster Hall, I believe that the current layout is extremely satisfactory, not only for Members but also for the many visitors, the staff and the Government advisers who serve Ministers. Will the Minister accept it from me that with the current layout it is much easier to identify Members, which is important to ensure that Members of all parties have the opportunity to participate in the excellent debates in Westminster Hall, which has been a great success?
    Mr. Twigg: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his work in chairing debates in Westminster Hall. Certainly the intervention that he has made today, drawing on his experience, will be taken into account, along with what my hon. Friends have said.

    Information and Communications Technology
    David Taylor: What plans he has for a fuller utilisation of information and communications technology in processes of the House of Commons. [32382]
    The Parliamentary Secretary, Privy Council Office (Mr. Stephen Twigg): I hope that the House will make full use of ICT in its work. I understand that the Information Committee is to undertake an inquiry into the use of ICT, and I hope that we can draw upon its work.
    David Taylor: Does the Minister agree that the wholesale abstention by younger voters in June 2001 was at least partly rooted in their sense of detachment from an institution widely seen as mired in an era of quill pens and hansom cabs? Does he believe that there is potential
    72
    for e-democracy to reconnect this place with the electorate, by promoting and improving the consultation with them on the matters that we debate?
    Mr. Twigg: I very much agree with my hon. Friend, although I suspect that he has not yet persuaded the shadow Leader of the House. Clearly, we face a serious challenge in reconnecting young people with politics. As my hon. Friend may be aware, there is now a Cabinet committee on e-democracy. It will address many of the issues that have been raised. I am delighted to say that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House chairs that committee.

    Electronic Voting
    Dr. Julian Lewis: What proposals he plans to make to the Select Committee on Modernisation of the House of Commons on electronic voting in Divisions. [32383]
    The President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Robin Cook): In my memorandum on modernisation, I posed the question whether views in the House on electronic voting had changed since hon. Members were consulted in the previous Parliament. I stressed in the memorandum that any acceptable form of electronic voting must require hon. Members to attend the Division in person, but that electronic voting could have the advantage of removing the need for multiple Divisions.
    Dr. Lewis: I thank the Leader of the House for that reply. Does he agree that one reason why Opposition Members value voting in person is that it is the one time of day when we can be sure of meeting as many of our colleagues and senior spokesmen as possible? Much can be carried out when we all know that we will meet at one place and one time. Does the right hon. Gentleman think that that view is shared by Labour Members, or are Government Back Benchers and Ministers rather more reluctant to meet than their shadow counterparts?
    Mr. Cook: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that insight into why Opposition Members prefer the present voting system. Given the present size of the official Opposition, I think that there are a number of halls in the building that could now accommodate them.
    Of course, the fact that hon. Members all come together at Division time is very important and valuable for the cohesion of the House, and for the parties represented here. I respect that, and that is why electronic voting would have to be introduced on the basis that hon. Members would vote in person. However, are Opposition Members really content with a system whereby three or four Divisions during a debate that is subject to a programme motion can mean that more than an hour is lost that could otherwise be used for debate and scrutiny?
    Mr. Peter Pike: I accept all the important points that my right hon. Friend has made about electronic

    73
    voting. Even though party Whips might not like the idea, does he also accept that we should consider whether any electronic system should be able to record an abstention?
    Mr. Cook: My hon. Friend raises an important element of the debate. Indeed, the Modernisation Committee examined the subject in the previous Parliament and posed the same question. Plainly, the more modern and flexible the House is when it comes to voting systems, the more options are available. I still have an open mind on the question, but I believe that the House should be willing to explore ways in which we might make a modest advance in the way that we vote, which at present is based on the principle of the sheepfold.

    Prime Minister's Question Time
    Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York): What representations he has received on the alteration of timing of questions to the Prime Minister. [32384]
    The Parliamentary Secretary, Privy Council Office (Mr. Stephen Twigg): My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has had many discussions on his proposals for reforming the hours of this House, and those consultations will continue.
    Miss McIntosh: I am most grateful for that elegant reply. I wish to make a plea on behalf of those hon. Members who represent constituencies in the north of country. Will the Government oppose any proposal to move Prime Minister's Question Time to a slot before lunch, such as 12 noon or earlier? Many constituents have to travel a long way to attend Prime Minister's Question Time, which is now held on only one day each week. It would be extremely regrettable if further obstacles were put in their way in that respect.
    Mr. Twigg: The aim of the proposed reforms is to increase the effectiveness of the House as a whole, and to ensure that all hon. Members benefit, irrespective of the location of their constituencies. I understand the hon. Lady's concerns as they might apply to the start time on a Monday, which we are not proposing to change, or to our finish time on a Thursday or Friday. [Horn. MEMBERS: "For visitors.") I understand that the hon. Lady's question had to do with constituents. Constituents will want to visit the House at many different times during the week, and that is a factor that must be borne in mind. We propose that the House's hours on Wednesday mirror those on Thursday. It is fair to say that constituents are still able to visit the House on a Thursday, and that the experiment
    74
    with the hours on Thursday has proved to be very successful. [Interruption.] Clearly, not all hon. Members share that view. The debate will continue in the Modernisation Committee, and it will come back to the House once that Committee has reached a view.
    The hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire was asked—

    Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards
    David Winnick: To ask the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire, representing the House of Commons Commission, if he will make a statement on progress in appointing the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards. [32386]
    Mr. Archy Kirkwood(on behalf of the House of Commons Commission): As I said in answer to the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mrs. Roe) on 6 February 2002, the House of Commons Commission has nominated for the post Mr. Philip Mawer, at present the Secretary General of the General Synod of the Church of England and Secretary General of the Archbishop's Council. That nomination is subject to the approval of the House, and the Leader of the House has indicated that the motion will be before the House tomorrow, 13 February.
    David Winnick: I note what the hon. Gentleman says, but will he confirm that the existing Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, Elizabeth Filkin, carried out her duties in a conscientious way and was impartial in investigating cases? Is he aware that many of us, certainly myself, believe that she has been, in effect, fired for carrying out her duties in that way? She has been a splendid public servant and it is most unfortunate that she is leaving in such circumstances.
    Mr. Kirkwood: The hon. Gentleman is entitled to his opinion, but I do not share it. I refer him to the nomination paper that will be before the House tomorrow when the motion is moved to appoint her successor. At paragraph 5, it says:
    "The House of Commons Commission would like to record its appreciation of Ms Filkin's dedication to work of the House. She has successfully brought a number of complex inquiries to a conclusion. Coupled with the Standards and Privileges Committee's consideration of reports presented to them, her work has fully validated the system of parliamentary self-regulation established following the recommendation of the first Nolan report."
    That is decidedly the view of the House of Commons Commission.

Points of Order
3.31 pm
Miss Anne McIntosh: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to raise a point of order, of which I have given you notice, in connection with a private notice question from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) last week. In column 748, the Foreign Secretary helpfully replied to my question by referring to the treaty of Utrecht, which, as hon. Members will recall, was drawn up in 1713. The House of Commons Library has helpfully furnished me with a copy of the treaty, which is in the original French.
I seek your guidance, Mr. Speaker, as a number of right hon. and hon. Members will seek to debate the treaty in future. Are we allowed to quote liberally from the French version or do we have to request an official English translation?
Mr. Speaker: I draw the attention of the hon. Lady to "Erskine May", page 371, which states:
"Speeches must be made in English, but quotation in another language has been allowed on occasion, though a translation should be provided."
Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. No one would have any objection to quotations, but it might be useful to have a translation of the whole treaty in the Library, since one of the things that it does is to exchange Gibraltar for Florida. If we are to reopen negotiations, we could perhaps consider having Florida back.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Lady has a point.

Waiting Time for Discharge From Hospital
3.33 pm
Dr. Andrew Murrison: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide an upper limit on the time that a person who is ready in all respects for discharge must wait before leaving an acute hospital.
On 4 July last year, the Prime Minister told hon. Members that
"bed blocking is probably the most urgent problem that we face in the national health service."—[Official Report, 4 July 2001; Vol. 371, c. 259.]
According to the latest figures available—I have just been sent them—bed blocking has not got any better, nor has it stayed the same; it has got worse. Rather like Robespierre, the Prime Minister sees a wrecker around every street corner. His remarks on wrecking completely mystified those of us who have worked in the public services.
My Bill is constructive, for it deals with a situation that touches the lives of so many constituents as patients, carers and members of the caring professions. It sets a standard to which I believe no Government or no hon. Member could reasonably object.
"Bed blocker" is a horrible, pejorative term, but it has something of an advantage over the alternative term, delayed discharge, because it conveys something of the awfulness of what is going on.
The national beds inquiry found:
"At least two out of every 10 days spent by people aged over 65 in acute hospital beds could be better provided in alternative facilities such as intermediate care beds."
But all health statistics come with a health warning these days, for there are as many ways of tweaking the figures as there are hon. Members. Some bright spark recently realised that if the wheels were taken off a hospital trolley, it became a hospital bed and there were no more trolley waits. So it is better, then, to rely on the press. Indeed, it is thanks to the Daily Mail that the Government had to concede in October that, during the year, there had been more than 680,000 elderly bed blockers.
Our dear old friend the postcode lottery pops up to produce a huge disparity across the country and even between localities served by individual trusts. For example, the Royal United hospital, Bath, finds it more difficult to discharge my constituents than it does to discharge people from other districts. People wait to get out, so people have to wait to get in. The Prime Minister was forced to admit during last week's questions that the number of operations that had been cancelled has risen substantially since 1997, and it now emerges that that number has risen as a proportion of operations performed.
Last week, a London consultant told me that bed blocking was so bad in his hospital that patients regularly have to sleep on the floor. In the 21st century in Britain, patients are sleeping on hospital floors. Those of us with first-hand experience as in-patients will know full well that life on a hospital ward is unsettling whether or not people are fortunate enough to have a bed—for the elderly, that would be a gross understatement.
Hospitals cannot always cure people; they cannot always make them feel much better, but at least they can ensure that they do them no harm. Busy hospitals are

77
dangerous, profoundly unsatisfactory places for elderly patients to be for a moment longer than is absolutely necessary. The consequences of delayed discharge—hospital-acquired infection, deep vein thrombosis and bed sores—may seem like small beer to the fit and healthy specimens in the Chamber, but they represent the grim reaper for many debilitated patients.
The Government will say that they are working hard to tackle bed blocking, but before we get too excited about increased funding, we should note that the King's Fund thinks that activity has actually declined, and the reason, very largely, is that the system is all blocked up. In response, the Government have tipped a wheelbarrow of extra cash on to social services, but the National Care Homes Association has said that that money represents little more than a sticking plaster.
The Health Act 1999 made my Bill possible. My cue lies with the increased flexibility as between health and social services that it introduced, but experience from Northern Ireland suggests that it is unlikely that the joint working arrangements that the Act encourages will alone magic away bed blocking. Funding increases for the national health service have far outstripped social services. Logically, that should drive up in-patient activity, but what happens downstream? The balance is clearly wrong, as the King's Fund has pointed out.
The bed blocking Bill would make two assumptions: first, that patients who are ready for discharge are better off supported in their own homes or in homely settings in the community; and secondly, that insufficient community care and support is the greatest single impediment to timely discharge. The Bill would facilitate a model based
78
on the Swedish approach to delayed discharges. That hugely successful innovation provides for cash transfers and penalties between agencies to achieve bed blocking targets.
Bed blocking is not just the result of finite resources; it is the result of the resources being used inappropriately. My hon. Friend the Member for West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) revealed that it costs £1,630 to have someone in hospital for a week and £319 for a week in a care home. Where is the sense in that?
The wait for admission is resource dependent, but the wait for discharge need not be, and both would be eased by a Bill that sets a maximum wait beyond an agreed discharge date. The date would be agreed by the relevant agencies on a case-by-case basis and would be supported by the cross-transfer of funds. This is such a reasonable measure that hon. Members who seek to wreck it will have a great deal of explaining to do in their constituencies, and I am very sure that there are no wreckers in this place. I ask the House to support my bed blocking Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Dr. Andrew Murrison, Dr. Richard Taylor, Mr. Mark Hoban, Mr. John Butterfill, Mr. Hugo Swire, Mr. Gerald Howarth, Mr. John Horam, Mr. Peter Duncan and Mr. Robert Key.

Waiting Time for Discharge From Hospital
  WAITING TIME FOR DISCHARGE FROM HOSPITAL
  Dr. Andrew Murrison accordingly presented a Bill to provide an upper limit on the time that a person who is ready in all respects for discharge must wait before leaving an acute hospital: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time on Friday 19 April, and to be printed [Bill 93].
Orders of the Day
  Employment Bill
  As amended in the Standing Committee, considered.
  Employment Bill
    New Clause 6

      COMPLAINTS ABOUT GRIEVANCES
      '(1) This section applies to the jurisdictions listed in Schedule [Tribunal jurisdictions to which section [Complaints about grievances] applies].
      (2) An employee shall not present a complaint to an employment tribunal under a jurisdiction to which this section applies if—

      (a) it concerns a matter in relation to which the requirement in paragraph 6 or 9 of Schedule 2 applies, and

      (b) the requirement has not been complied with.

      (3) An employee shall not present a complaint to an employment tribunal under a jurisdiction to which this section applies if—

      (a) it concerns a matter in relation to which the requirement in paragraph 6 or 9 of Schedule 2 has been complied with, and

      (b) less than 28 days have passed since the day on which the requirement was complied with.

      (4) An employee shall not present a complaint to an employment tribunal under a jurisdiction to which this section applies if—

      (a) it concerns a matter in relation to which the requirement in paragraph 6 or 9 of Schedule 2 has been complied with, and

      (b) the day on which the requirement was complied with was more than one month after the end of the original time limit for making the complaint.

      (5) In such circumstances as the Secretary of State may specify by regulations, an employment tribunal may direct that subsection (4) shall not apply in relation to a particular matter.
      (6) An employment tribunal shall be prevented from considering a complaint presented in breach of subsections (2) to (4), but only if—

      (a) the breach is apparent to the tribunal from the information supplied to it by the employee in connection with the bringing of the proceedings, or

      (b) the tribunal is satisfied of the breach as a result of his employer raising the issue of compliance with those provisions in accordance with regulations under section 7 of the Employment Tribunals Act 1996 (c. 17) (employment tribunal procedure regulations).

      (7) The Secretary of State may for the purposes of this section by regulations—

      (a) make provision about the application of the procedures set out in Part 2 of Schedule 2;

      (b) make provision about what constitutes compliance with paragraph 6 or 9 of that Schedule;

      (c) make provision about circumstances in which a person is to be treated as having complied with paragraph 6 or 9 of that Schedule;

      (d) make provision for paragraph 6 or 9 of that Schedule to have effect in such circumstances as may be specified by the regulations with such modifications as may be so specified.

      (8) The Secretary of State may by order—

      (a) amend, repeal or replace any of subsections (2) to (4);

      (b) amend Schedule [Tribunal jurisdictions to which section [Complaints about grievances] applies];

      80

      (c) make provision for this section to apply, with or without modifications, as if—

      (i) any individual of a description specified in the order who would not otherwise be an employee for the purposes of this section were an employee for those purposes, and

      (ii) a person of a description specified in the order were, in the case of any such individual, the individual's employer for those purposes.

      (9) Before making an order under subsection (8)(a), the Secretary of State must consult the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service.
      (10) In its application to orders under subsection (8)(a), section 51(1)(b) includes power to amend this section.'.—[Alan Johnson.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      3.41 pm
      The Minister for Employment and the Regions (Alan Johnson): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      Mr. Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment (a) to the proposed new clause, in line 43, leave out subsections (8) to (10).
      Government amendments Nos. 47, 48 and 52.
      Government new schedule 1—Tribunal jurisdictions to which section [Complaints about grievances] applies.
      Alan Johnson: Clause 33 contains general powers for the Secretary of State to introduce regulations preventing complaints from being presented to tribunals before all or part of the relevant statutory procedures have been followed. It is an important clause that is designed to ensure that complaints are first raised internally before being taken to a tribunal. It also has implications for access to the tribunal system.
      In Committee, I explained in detail how we planned to use these powers. I explained how we intended to set several simple criteria that tribunals would apply when deciding whether to admit a complaint. Given the issue's importance, I consider, on reflection, that there are advantages to providing more detail about the policy in primary legislation, which should narrow the role for secondary legislation. I am sure that hon. Members will appreciate the benefits of including more detail in the Bill.

      Let me proceed by describing how the new clause works. As I said, its main purpose is to set new admissibility criteria that tribunals will apply to certain categories of complaints brought by employees. The criteria are set out in subsections (2), (3) and (4) of the new clause. I should mention first that the criteria would apply only in relation to tribunal complaints arising out of grievances. They would have no application to complaints arising out of disciplinary action.
      There are three criteria. First, the employee must have completed step one of the statutory grievance procedure. That means that the employee must have set out the grievance in writing and sent a copy to the employer. Secondly, 28 days or more must have passed since step one had been completed. That minimum 28-day period gives time for the parties to discuss the grievance and try to resolve the problem. The third criterion deals with the special case in which an employee may have failed to meet the other criteria with an initial application. For example, the employee may have failed to send the step one letter to the employer. We do not want to deny the

      81
      employee access to the tribunals in such circumstances. Instead, the employee would be given another chance to submit a valid application. That would often involve extending the normal period for making applications to tribunals, using the powers under clause 32.
      We want to ensure, however, that the grievance is quickly brought to the employer's attention during any extended period. That should ensure that recollection of the events surrounding the grievance remains fresh. We therefore stipulate in subsection (4) that the step one action must have been completed within a period of no more than a month after the normal period for making applications to tribunals has ended. For most jurisdictions, the normal period for bringing complaints is three months. For those jurisdictions, the third criterion means that the step one action needs to be taken within four months of the event that gave rise to the grievance.
      New schedule 1 to the new clause lists the jurisdictions to which the admissibility regime was intended to apply. However, the criteria will not apply to unfair dismissal, other than to cases involving constructive dismissal, because dismissal is a disciplinary matter. We also think that with the exception of constructive dismissal, the criteria should not apply to ex-employees. That exclusion will be covered by regulations under subsection (7) of the new clause. The regulations will also define those particular cases—extreme bullying and the threat of violence—in which an employee should not be obliged to complete even step one of the grievance procedure.
      Mr. Philip Hammond: Why is it unreasonable for an employee to complete step one even in such extreme cases? After all, it only involves writing a letter, which is hardly intimidating in any circumstances.
      Alan Johnson: It depends on the circumstances. It would be wrong to insist that an employee write to an employer in cases involving, for instance, serious violence against an employee by an employer or racial or sexual harassment. We should not force the employee in those circumstances to open up a dialogue with the employer. However, that will be dealt with in regulations and those are subject to consultation.
      The criteria are simple to understand and it should be relatively easy for tribunals and the parties to ascertain whether they have been met. There is limited scope for parties to dispute whether a case should be admitted. In most cases, there will be no need for tribunals to hold preliminary hearings to assess compliance.
      Subsection (8) of the new clause gives the Secretary of State an order-making power to change the admissibility criteria if necessary. It is prudent to take that power in case experience shows that the criteria need to be amended. Subsection (9) requires the Secretary of State to consult the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service before exercising the power. The power also allows us to extend the regime to non-employees if necessary.
      Amendments Nos. 47 and 48 deal with consequential matters. Amendment No. 47 ensures that clause 32, which is on time limits, includes a necessary reference to the new schedule. Amendment No. 48 deletes clause 33 and amendment No. 52 makes a consequential change to clause 51.
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      The group of amendments greatly improves the Bill and makes our intentions plain. It constructs a workable and sensible admissibility regime to ensure that most grievances are aired before they are taken to tribunals. The regulations will build in safeguards to ensure access to justice.
      Mr. Hammond: I declare an interest as an employer. I hope that we will hear very full declarations of interest from hon. Members on both sides of the House either as employers or as recipients of the largesse of trade unions, in the form of sponsorship of their constituency parties.
      As the Minister said, the purpose of the new clause is to include in the Bill—
      Mr. Tony Lloyd: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Gentleman invites hon. Members to declare an interest. That is a reasonable request and I am a member of a trade union. However, as there is no such thing as sponsorship, will you clarify whether it is necessary for members of trade unions to declare an interest?
      Mr. Speaker: If a matter is recorded in the register, it should be declared. If it is not, it is up to hon. Members to decide what to do. I hope that that helps the hon. Gentleman.
      Mr. Hammond: Thank you for that ruling, Mr. Speaker. As I understand it, following recent clarifications of the rules, it is not necessary for hon. Members to list sponsorship of their constituency parties in the register. However, as we will discuss amendments and new clauses that are a clear and well established part of the Trades Union Congress agenda, it will help people who are interested in the debate to know whether the hon. Members who propose them—
      Mr. Speaker: Order. When those matters are before the House, hon. Members will decide what to do. At the moment, we are debating new clause 6 and the associated amendments, and the hon. Gentleman should stick to that subject.
      Mr. Hammond: I am grateful to you, as ever, Mr. Speaker, for your guidance.
      As the Minister advised the House, new clause 6 includes in the Bill measures that would otherwise have been provided in regulations under clause 33, which is now deleted. It is interesting that the Government have chosen to include in the Bill detailed procedures that would otherwise have been introduced by regulation. Many clauses leave matters to be disposed of by regulation, and the Government have chosen this one clause for special treatment—removing the regulation-making power and adding a fairly lengthy new clause that spells out in detail the procedure to be followed.
      Interestingly, in its briefing to members of the Standing Committee the TUC suggested that it expected the Government to table amendments to clause 33. Conservative Members were somewhat surprised that no such amendments were forthcoming in Committee, but it seems that the TUC was ahead of Parliament in knowing the Government's intentions, and their agenda—or perhaps I should say the TUC's agenda—has now been revealed.

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      In Committee, Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members urged the Government to reveal the details of the regulations that would arise from many clauses; so will the Minister explain why the provisions in clause 33 need to be spelled out while others do not?
      Grouped with the new clause is new schedule 1, which is an interesting device because, subject to a minor amendment that the Government will move later, it is identical to schedule 3. The only plausible explanation is that the Government intend, at some point in the future, to amend one or other of the schedules through regulation so that different jurisdictions apply to two different parts of the Bill. That is an unsatisfactory way for a Government to proceed.
      The original decision—that it would not be necessary for an employee to have gone through the entire statutory grievance procedure before being able to bring a case before a tribunal—was a concession to lobbying from the trade union movement. That is clear from the briefing that the TUC put out for Second Reading and to the Committee. Now, an employee will have had only to write a letter to his employer outlining his grievance and then to wait 28 days before instigating proceedings in a tribunal. It is not clear to Conservative Members that that will have the effect claimed by the Government of significantly reducing the number of cases that come before tribunals.
      I should like to probe the Minister a little further on the provision in the new clause for the Secretary of State, by regulation, to exclude certain classes of case from the requirement to have taken the first step. As I told the House in my intervention on the Minister, the first step consists only of writing a letter. I find it difficult to imagine a case in which the obligation to write a letter to one's employer outlining the grievance was so traumatic that it would be better to provide that the employee shall go straight to an employment tribunal.
      I can understand how the provision got into the Bill. The original thinking was that the complete statutory procedure would have to be gone through before recourse to an employment tribunal, so there would of course be cases in which a face-to-face confrontation between employer and employee would be inappropriate—for example, in cases involving violence or allegations of sexual harassment. However, I am unable to think of a single substantial class of case in which it would be inappropriate to impose on the employee a requirement only to write a letter. I shall be grateful if the Minister, using the considerable resources of ingenuity available to him, comes up with at least one convincing example, so that the House can understand the need for the power to exclude.
      The matter is causing employers' organisations some degree of concern. That concern flows from a fact that will be a recurring theme this afternoon: that the Government are under obvious pressure from trade unions to concede yet more. Every time the Secretary of State is given a power by regulation to concede the agenda of the TUC, there is a danger that further concessions will be made in the wider horse trading that apparently goes on between the Government and the TUC.
      The Opposition are concerned that a loophole is built into new clause 6 and that the Bill including new clause 6 will not have the impact that the Government desire, in terms of reducing the number of tribunal cases. We are
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      aware of the need to monitor the effectiveness of the provisions to ensure that they deliver the benefit for which the Government, employers and responsible trade unions hope—of reducing the number of cases that go to employment tribunals without those involved even embarking on existing in-work procedures for dispute resolution.
      I wish to draw the House's attention to new clause 6(6). The procedure outlined therein departs from, or goes beyond, what the Minister described to the Committee. Subsection (6)(a) is unlikely to apply: it is unlikely that an employee will bring to a tribunal a case in which the information that he lays is such as to disqualify him from bringing it on the face of the facts. Subsection (6)(b), if I understand the provision correctly, places on the employer the responsibility for drawing the employment tribunal's attention to the fact that the employee has failed to go through the correct procedures under the statutory procedure laid down in schedule 2.
      Will the Minister clarify whether an employer's failure to draw the tribunal's attention at the appropriate point to the failure of the employee to exhaust, or at least embark on, the statutory procedure will preclude that matter being dealt with at a later stage? In other words, if the employer—perhaps through ignorance: he may be a small business man who is unfamiliar with the now increasingly complex body of law—fails to draw the tribunal's attention at the appropriate point during consideration of procedural matters to the fact that the employee has not written the requisite letter and waited the requisite 28 days, or whatever period regulations specify, will it be impossible for a subsequent finding against the employer to be set aside on the grounds that the employee did not follow the correct procedure? I hope that the Minister will clarify that. It would be a further burden on employers if at that stage they had to identify the problem, so as to avoid being subjected to a decision of wrongfulness in the light of the facts.
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      Amendment No. 47 sets out a power to vary new schedule 1 from time to time. Perhaps the Minister will tell us what he has in mind in varying the schedule. He must have something in mind; otherwise there would be no point in introducing a new schedule that is identical to a schedule that is already in the Bill. It is clear that the Minister intends to introduce changes at some stage.
      Amendment (a) seeks to delete subsections (8) to (10). The subsections give the Secretary of State a power to amend the grounds for exclusions of a claim. The Government appear to be seeking to have their cake and eat it. On the one hand, they want to put the detailed provision of the regulations in the Bill. Presumably they have been told to do so by the TUC. On the other hand, they want to retain a power fundamentally to amend, by changing the grounds on which claims to a tribunal would be excluded by regulation. Surely that is not the appropriate way in which to proceed. Having decided not to use regulation and to set out provisions in the Bill, the Government should get things right the first time. They should stick to their guns and exclude subsection (8).
      Subsections (9) and (10) would be excluded by the amendment, because they depend on subsection (8). I look forward with interest to the Minister's response.
      Brian Cotter: I, too, should like to refer to a reference in the Register of Members' Interests. I am the managing director of a company, an interest to which I have referred before. I naturally have an interest in these matters.
      I am pleased that the Government have decided to remove the controversial clause 33 and to replace it with a clause that seems far more sensible and will add greater clarity, which is what we were looking for. The Liberal Democrats tabled an amendment to clause 33 before we embarked on Report. We were concerned that the clause, as it stood, could act as a barrier to justice for tribunal applicants with valid cases.
      We are concerned that it would be inappropriate to rule out claims altogether where they concern sexual harassment or racial abuse, for example. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) referred to the issue and wanted clarification, which I expect the Minister will give.
      There may be cases where a woman is being exposed to sexual harassment or intimidation of some sort. She might feel so nervous and concerned that even sending a letter could pose a problem. If violence could be involved, for example, she might fear some form of retribution. She might be concerned about stirring things up. I am sure that the Minister will have some general thoughts about that.
      The Minister has said that applicants will be required to send only written notice of the grievance to the employer and wait 28 days for a response before an application to a tribunal can be made. That is fair enough. I acknowledge that it would be reasonable to expect most employees to take the first step, but I still have concerns. That is why we tabled an amendment.
      In Committee, the Minister seemed to agree with me when he said:
      "We recognise, however, that there will be rare cases in which the threat of violence or serious personal harassment may make it dangerous or intimidating for applicants to take step one action before making an application."—[Official Report, Standing Committee F, 18 December 2001; c. 196.]
      I am sure that the Minister will explain what he meant by that and perhaps provide clarification. In addition, as the Law Society pointed out, the national minimum wage enforcement agency does not require workers who are not receiving the minimum wage to take up matters with their employer first, which might serve to increase their vulnerability. Yet
      "detriment in relation to national minimum wage"
      is apparently still covered by the new clause; section 24 of the National Minimum Wage Act 1998 is cited in the new schedule.
      How will new clause 6 operate in conjunction with other statutory rights, such as the right to paid leave? Will the Minister repeat the assurance that he gave on Second Reading on the original clause 33 and clarify the application of new clause 6 to other measures? Can he explain who will be in a position to decide whether or not the exception is applicable, and whether applicants have a legitimate reason for taking action? Will that be for the tribunal to determine at a preliminary hearing and would it not cause further complications in tribunal proceedings? In such cases, will the second chance, which will allow the applicant to go back and complete the grievance procedure—referred to by the Minister on 18 December in Committee—apply to new clause 6? If so, does the
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      Minister share the Law Society's concerns that such an action may sour relations between employees and employers?
      Finally, can the Minister provide an assurance that applicants who do not give the correct legal label to a grievance in their written statement will not be prevented from pursuing their claim in an employment tribunal? How will that influence what is brought up in the original written statement, and how much influence will the written statement have on proceedings at the later tribunal? I look forward to the Minister's reply, but generally we welcome the fact that the problem raised in Committee has been addressed.
      Mr. Mark Prisk: Radical reform of employment tribunals is long overdue. Talking to the Federation of Small Businesses, the Institute of Directors and the CBI, I have learned that there has been an extraordinary increase in the number of cases taken to employment tribunals. In just 10 years, the figure has risen by 300 per cent., which cannot be good for industrial relations or the economy as a whole.
      Rob Marris: Would the hon. Gentleman care to tell the House about the decline in the number of days lost through strikes in the same 10-year period?
      Mr. Prisk: I am not in a position to deal with that claim. I am concerned with the way in which industrial relations will work from now on. As an MP with a legal background, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman may like to add to his point later.
      Mr. Mark Simmonds: Perhaps I can help my hon. Friend and, through him, the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Maths). In the financial year 1997–98, 254,000 days were lost as a result of strike action. In the first 10 months of last year, 325,000 days were lost, which is a significant increase since the Labour party came to power.
      Mr. Prisk: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, not least in helping me to channel that information to the House. The fact that 130,000 cases were taken to employment tribunals in 2000 clearly needs to be addressed; that is the principle on which I welcome the Bill's aspirations. It is clear from the CBI and the Institute of Directors that the cost to business of those cases is now about £633 million. Beyond the cost alone, it cannot be right that cases are immediately brought to court; they should be dealt with in the workplace.
      New clause 6 tries to rebalance the responsibilities in the workplace, and for that reason it is welcome, in principle. The Bill sets out clear and, in some cases, quite prescriptive requirements on employers for dealing with complaints, grievances and so on, as the Minister described at length on Second Reading and in Committee. It seems only right, therefore, that we should require employees equally to accept responsibility to begin a complaint or a grievance in the workplace, and not immediately to run to the courts.
      I welcome the requirement that the employee should first write a letter—that seems common sense—and that there should be 28-day waiting period, which also makes

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      sense. Before the Minister thinks that I am going too soft, however, I shall raise one or two concerns. My first relates to new clause 6 because the Secretary of State still has reserved powers to exclude certain individuals. I reiterate the concern expressed by the Federation of Small Businesses and the Institute of Directors that that power should not be overused. I hope that the Minister will reassure me and those employers representatives that the power will not be overexercised.
      My second concern is that although responsibilities are being introduced for employees in an attempt to balance the responsibilities already sought for employers, those seem a little inadequate. There is merely a requirement that the employee should write a letter, as my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) rightly pointed out. It is not a requirement to meet, to sit down and to have an intelligent and reasonable dialogue to sort out the differences. The Bill is prescriptive in the requirements that it places on employers to act, yet the Government seem reluctant to introduce similarly prescriptive measures for employees. It is that slight imbalance which worries me.
      If it is right to set out three steps for employers, surely it is right to set out at least two steps—to write and to meet—for employees. Although I understand the argument of the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Brian Cotter) that in extreme cases individual members of an organisation might not want a face-to-face meeting, that is a rare example. Wherever possible, we should encourage employees to write, to meet and to have a dialogue.
      Mr. Kevan Jones: As a full-time trade union official until last June, it is clear to me that the hon. Gentleman does not understand the process. If the employee wrote a letter and was then invited to a disciplinary hearing, and did not attend, and if the case reached an industrial tribunal, it would be deemed unfair anyway, so I do not understand where the hon. Gentleman is coming from.
      Mr. Prisk: The purpose of the new clause is to encourage employees to take responsibility. I do not claim to be a lawyer, but I do claim to have worked in small businesses.
      Mr. Hammond: Perhaps my hon. Friend should point out that it is the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) who does not understand what we are talking about. We are dealing with grievances, not discipline.
      Mr. Prisk: I was too polite to do that, and I shall try to maintain that air of civility. My hon. Friend is right. Perhaps the hon. Member for North Durham will bear my hon. Friend's comments in mind.
      There seems to be a strange omission from the Bill. It is fine to introduce a clearly defined and prescriptive set of proposals for employers, but there is a hesitancy to do the same with regard to employees. It would be helpful if the Minister could explain to the House why that omission exists. In conclusion, I welcome the purpose behind the new clause. What concerns me is that it seems, unusually for the Minister, to lack the confidence to see that through.
      Mr. Simmonds: I, too, begin by declaring an interest: I am an employer in and outside the House.
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      I hope that the Government share my view that the main purpose of new clause 6 is to reduce the number of cases that go to a tribunal. I welcome more detailed provision for that in the Bill rather than through regulations. I should like the Minister to offer a cast-iron guarantee or to express belief that the new clause will reduce the number of applications that go to tribunals.
      4.15 pm
      Many employer organisations share my deep concern that the new clause will not have the impact that I described, and that an increasing number of cases will continue to go to appeals tribunals. The figures are staggering. In 1988–89, just over 29,000 tribunal applications were submitted; in 1997–98, the figure exceeded 80,000; in 2000–01, it was comfortably over 130,000. Clearly, the number of applications to tribunals has increased dramatically. I believe that that is a direct result of many policies that the Government have introduced since they came to power in 1997.
      Norman Lamb: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the number of new rights for employees expanded considerably when the Conservative Government were in power? That led to increases in the number of claims that were taken to tribunals.
      Mr. Simmonds: I am not arguing against employees' rights. There is a balance to be struck between employees' rights and employers' responsibilities. However, since 1997, matters have accelerated and employment relations have been damaged. Personnel Today stated that
      "the raft of legislative changes brought in under the Employment Relations Act 1999 is the chief factor behind the big rise in tribunal claims reported by ACAS".
      Nothing in the new clause will stop that acceleration.
      I generally support the clause, but I share the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) about the open-ended list of exceptions. I should like the Minister to show us that our anxieties are not well founded.
      I would go slightly further than my hon. Friend on subsection (6)(a). I cannot foresee any circumstances in connection with bringing proceedings in which an employee would inform a tribunal that he or she had not complied with the procedure, thereby barring themselves from obtaining a tribunal application. The provision is therefore superfluous.
      The Minister did not enjoy receiving the letter from Judge Prophet; indeed, he provided a robust and speedy response, which he copied to us all for which I am grateful. He made a pertinent point about an employee who is dismissed and therefore entitled to redundancy payment. If the employer refuses to pay, how does the internal grievance procedure apply to someone who is no longer an employee? Is such a case one of the exceptions that the Minister proposes to make through regulations under the new clause, or will the employee have to write to the employer to express his grievance after he has been made redundant?
      Ms Joan Walley: I shall speak briefly. I declare that I am a member of Unison and declare my constituency arrangements: my constituency Labour party has an agreement with the Union of Construction Allied Trades and Technicians.

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      I want to give credit to the Minister for having taken account of the representations made to him not only in Committee but on behalf of people in constituencies such as mine, who had a great fear that, if clause 33 as originally drafted had stood part of the legislation, people would not have been able to take their case straight to a tribunal, and would have been excluded. I wanted a great deal of consultation about the regulations that would have come into force if the original clause 33 had remained part of the Bill.
      I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the attention that he has paid to those of us who had concerns about this aspect of admissibility in respect of clause 33. He has been kind enough to listen to me, and said that this provision will now mean that people will not be excluded. I have listened to some of the comments made by Conservative Members, particularly in relation to people who have lost their jobs. The new clause, assuming that it will stand part of the Bill without being altered to a significant extent elsewhere—
      Mr. Hammond: Several hon. Members have attempted to draw the Minister on which classes of people are to be excluded from this provision, so enabling them to apply to a tribunal without going through the procedures. If the hon. Lady has any inside information on that as a result of her correspondence with the Minister and her Labour party channels, would she be good enough to share it with us?
      Ms Walley: I would be very happy to place in the Library a copy of the Minister's response to me. If, however, the hon. Gentleman thinks that I have any prior knowledge of this matter, he is mistaken. I am simply one of 659 Members who take a keen interest in the Bill.
      My main concern about the original clause 33 related to cases of bullying, for example, in which people might feel that they could not raise the matter with their employer before taking it to an employment tribunal for fear of harassment. I was worried that such people might genuinely be prevented from taking their case forward, and the new clause takes considerable account of the representations that have been made on that issue.
      Mr. Hammond: I am genuinely puzzled. The hon. Lady is outlining a scenario in which someone would be afraid to write a letter to their employer in case they suffered harassment for doing so, yet not be afraid of suffering harassment for applying to an employment tribunal. Surely the two are entirely comparable in terms of the risk to which the employee is exposed. Why is writing a letter more risky than applying to an employment tribunal?
      Ms Walley: We are talking about a question of balance. The Government are absolutely right to concentrate on ensuring that the resolution of disputes can take place first and foremost in the workplace, and that the process should not have to go all the way to an employment tribunal. I accept that that is the Government's intention, and that is what I want to happen. I can, however, envisage certain scenarios in which people who had suffered sexual harassment or intimidation, for example, or who had been
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      bullied, could have been prevented from taking their case forward under the original clause 33. I therefore want to record my praise for the Minister's having taken account of those concerns.
      I have one further point, to which I hope my hon. Friend will reply. A slightly more complex set of arrangements is now being proposed, and people who cannot reach an employment tribunal in the first instance might be able to come back and make a second application. Perhaps organisations such as the citizens advice bureaux could find out how they might be able to advise and represent such people, because I would not want them to be excluded from access to the kind of representation that they might now need to reach an employment tribunal.
      Mr. George Osborne: I shall speak briefly to new clause 6 and, particularly, to the amendment tabled by my hon. Friends. I want to begin by saying how much I enjoyed serving on the Standing Committee. It was a pleasure to watch two great professionals, the Minister for Employment and the Regions, the hon. Member for Hull, West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), and my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) proceed with the business. It was noticeable that, when junior Ministers took the place of the Minister of State, the standard of debate dropped considerably. I have probably done for the Minister's career, but there we go.
      Like other Opposition Members, in general I welcome the fact that the Government are including in legislation what would otherwise be dealt with through statutory instruments and regulations. That is a good idea in principle, and I also welcome the attempt to require employees to go through a basic minimum procedure before heading straight for the employment tribunal. However, like other Opposition Members, I am extremely concerned to know the categories of people that might be excluded from that procedure.
      Even those who have suffered the grossest sexual or racial abuse in the workplace should at least be able to record the incident on a piece of paper. Indeed, in Committee we discussed the benefit of conducting more of the procedure in writing, and I remember with fondness that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) supported us on that point. His support was welcome and it certainly cheered up a rather dull day.
      I reinforce the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Mr. Simmonds). I assume that the purpose of new clause 6 and other such provisions is to reduce the number of cases going to employment tribunals. Indeed, the Government's regulatory impact assessment suggests that the Bill could reduce them by between 30,000 and 40,000. That would be greatly welcomed by Members on both sides of the House if it proves true, but, like many other people and outside organisations, I have my doubts.
      The Bill will introduce a load of new employment rights, including paternity rights and rights for adoptive parents, which I welcome, but it will also introduce new rights for union learning representatives and a complicated new power relating to flexible working, which I do not welcome. I would not be at all surprised if the legislation increased the numbers going to

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      employment tribunals, and it would be interesting to have on record the Minister's assessment of its likely impact on those numbers.
      Alan Johnson: The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) made the usual pantomime points about Trades Union Congress briefings, and so on. One minute, we in the Department of Trade and Industry are accused of being the provisional wing of the Confederation of British Industry, and the next he redresses the balance by saying that we take all our instructions from the TUC. Of course, we do neither. We listen carefully to both sides, and unlike the previous Conservative Government, who seemed to have an aversion to free and independent trade unions, we think that the trade union voice is important. We have listened to it carefully, but no more so than to other voice.
      On admissibility, our response to "Routes to Resolution", which was published almost three months ago, made perfectly clear our belief that the provision should apply to grievances only. I shall deal with some questions that were asked on that point, particularly by the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Prisk), but I should point out that, as the response to "Routes to Resolution" made clear, there was no debate about whether we would apply admissibility simply to step one of the grievance procedure.
      In Committee, the debate concerned whether the provision should be included in the Bill or in regulations and whether clause 33 was drawn too widely in terms of its operation. Our view was that, on balance, it would help the House if we amended the Bill to clarify the admissibility clause, thereby preventing any hares from running in respect of its use and application.
      4.30 pm
      The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge asked why we proposed to include two identical schedules. It was a prudent move. New schedule 1 is indeed identical to schedule 3, but there may be occasions in the future—although we do not envisage them now—when we want different jurisdictions to apply to the very new admissibility clause and to the measures in schedule 3. The two schedules are identical, but they may not always be, although we have no plans to change anything at this stage.
      Mr. Hammond: Is the Minister seriously saying that he is including two identical schedules in case he wants to change one of them at some time in the future, but that he has absolutely no intention of doing so? That has staggering implications. Why not include two of every clause and every schedule in every Bill, just in case the Government want to change one of them by regulation at some future stage?
      Alan Johnson: We will consider that suggestion carefully. All I know at this stage is that we are moving into uncharted territory in respect of admissibility, and I think it prudent to ensure that the jurisdictions are separated.
      The hon. Gentleman referred to subsection (6)(b), and the employer's challenge to the making of admissibility criteria at an early stage. We consider that reasonable. We do not want the questions to hang around until there is a
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      full hearing at an employment tribunal; that would mean devoting extra time and resources to cases that would otherwise be inadmissible. Our approach is workable, and we think that it will ensure that preliminary issues are handled expeditiously.
      The hon. Gentleman made a point about the step one letter that was made consistently by Opposition Members. They omitted one important consideration. Step one involves not just writing to the employer, but allowing a period of 28 days. Although there is no requirement for a hearing in new clause 6, we think that the 28-day period would enable employee and employer to discuss the grievance at the heart of the problem.
      We intend the exceptions to be genuine exceptions. We want as few as possible, but we think it advisable for them to be made in some rare circumstances. It must be beyond doubt that the time will be used productively, and the letter must concern a case of serious sexual harassment, violence or intimidation. It must be clear that there is no possibility of the issue being resolved in 28 days, because the trust and the relationship have broken down completely—although the employee is still in the workplace. We will regulate for such exceptions, and consult on them.
      Mr. Michael Weir: How would this statutory procedure sit with companies' internal grievance procedures? I know from my long experience as a lawyer that when cases reach tribunals there is often a lot of discussion about the fairness of the internal procedure that was carried out initially. Would the statutory procedure override existing grievance procedures?
      Alan Johnson: We seem to have moved on to disciplinary procedures. Given that an employee was allowed to be informed of the so-called offence that had been committed, to discuss it with the employer—unless it was an offence of gross misconduct—and was granted the right of appeal, internal disciplinary and grievance procedures would not breach the basic three and two-step criteria.
      That brings me to a point raised by several hon. Members, including the hon. Members for Hertford and Stortford and for Boston and Skegness (Mr. Simmonds). They ask what effect the new clause will have and say that it does not go far enough. At present, 6 million workers have no recourse to any grievance or disciplinary procedures in the workplace. Some 600,000 workplaces have no procedures, and a further 340,000 have substandard procedures.
      Mr. Simmonds: Does the Minister accept that a large proportion of those workplaces have voluntary systems that work very successfully?
      Alan Johnson: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by voluntary systems. If they are voluntary, they are not recorded, and the employee does not know that he or she has recourse to them. I am referring to workplaces where there is no procedure whatever. There are reports in today's newspapers of an horrific case of someone who was dismissed and had no right of appeal because there was no internal procedure to allow that.
      I fully accept that people are more aware of their rights. Thanks to this Government, they have more rights to be aware of—we do not apologise for that. Given article 13,

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      which outlaws discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation and age, it is almost inconceivable that the number of tribunal cases will not rise. However, we estimate that between 30,000 and 40,000 cases that go to employment tribunals could be resolved in the workplace if the procedure existed to deal with complaints or grievances there.
      Mr. Mark Field: I appreciate what the Minister says. However, the acid test of the Bill in terms of improving employees' rights will be if more cases go before employment tribunals. My concern is that that will be seen as a mark of success. I ran a small business before coming to this place, and I am not sure what our procedures were. They were certainly not written down in a massive booklet—not that there was any problem in that regard, I hasten to add. I may well have qualified as one of the 600,000 employers mentioned. There has been increasing awareness of employee rights, with more people rushing to use employment tribunals as a first rather than a last resort. That has to be the underlying concern, given all the waste that would result for business.
      Alan Johnson: I do not know about people rushing to use employment tribunals as a first recourse. However, people who have no other outlet to resolve their problem will go to an employment tribunal and slap in their IT 1.
      Business organisations, including the Confederation of British Industry and the Federation of Small Businesses, support this simple fact: having a basic procedure in the workplace must be preferable to airing problems at a full-blown employment tribunal.
      Mr. Hammond: Let me go back five minutes. If someone submits his grievance in writing within 28 days—I am not talking about an exception case in which harassment or something similar has taken place—and the employer suggests meeting to sort it out, the employee is entitled to ignore that and go ploughing off to the tribunal anyway. Will the Minister confirm that the Government's original intention was that the entire statutory procedure should be exhausted before there was access to a tribunal? Will he confirm that he has backed down, watering down the proposals during the Bill's consideration to the point where an employee can ignore the employer offering a grievance meeting and go straight to a tribunal?
      Alan Johnson: No. The hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong. It was never our intention that every case must exhaust the discipline and grievance procedure prior to being allowed into the employment tribunal procedure. The hon. Gentleman should read our response to the "Routes to Resolution" document published last November, in which we talked about grievances.
      The other point being missed is mitigation. Elsewhere in the Bill there is the right for an employment tribunal to take action if it believes that either the employee or the employer has not followed the procedures. First, if the employer has not carried out the basic three-step procedure and there has been a dismissal, that dismissal is automatically deemed unfair. Secondly, if the employee or the employer, without good reason—one of the
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      exceptions such as racial harassment or bullying, for example—did not go through the full procedure but came to the tribunal before completing stage two or three, the award can be mitigated by between 10 and 50 per cent. That is a salutary and sobering prospect for people who may be tempted to think, "The procedure's there, but I'll simply ignore it."
      This is a crucial point, fundamental to human rights. As things stand, someone can simply sling in an IT 1 and there are no procedures in the workplace. Should we move from that to a procedure in which people are locked out of the system altogether and prevented from seeking justice at an employment tribunal?
      We took that question extremely seriously, and business supports us here. For example, there is the CBI document—although perhaps some Conservative Members now consider the CBI to be the provisional wing of the DTI. The CBI said that it warmly welcomed proposals that would require employees to raise a problem with their employer. Most business people said that for them, the important thing was not to hear about a grievance in a courtroom but, that if someone still in their employment was worried, perhaps after having been passed over for promotion, they would talk to them first and air the grievance. That view has been reflected in new clause 6.
      The hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Brian Cotter), whose general support I appreciate—
      Mr. Hammond: The big tent.
      Alan Johnson: For a moment I thought that the hon. Gentleman was insulting me; I think that my suit fits rather well.
      The hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare asked how relevant the step one letter was to the tribunal's decision on the substance of the case. The letter will be relevant to the tribunal's decision on whether the complaint is covered by the grievance that the employee raised, but not to the decision on the substance of the complaint.
      The hon. Gentleman also asked who would decide whether an exemption should apply. The tribunal will decide. I agree that that might require it to hold preliminary hearings, but we think that if we get the regulations right and the exceptions are clear, there will be less need for that to happen.
      The hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford asked why the new clause did not require the employee to follow the three-step procedure. He made some curious points about why the employee gets three steps but the employer does not—
      Mr. Prisk: The other way round.
      Alan Johnson: Sorry, that is what I meant.
      Both sides have to follow those steps or any award will be liable to serious mitigation of between 10 and 50 per cent.
      This is not about one side or the other; it is about having a facility in the workplace to air grievances. Insisting that an employee had to follow the three steps before reaching a tribunal would cause a simple problem: we can imagine all the barriers that an unscrupulous employer would put up to stop the case going to a

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      tribunal. He could ensure that, even with the extra three months that we have provided under clause 32, it was time-expired.
      There is also a series of exemptions. The hon. Gentleman and I agree that certain situations need to be exempted, certainly from the full three-step procedure. We would have to have more exemptions, and there would be more preliminary hearings. The representatives of all sides of business whom we consulted shared the view that stage one of the grievance procedure was the important part.
      Mr. Prisk: The Minister said earlier that the Government were sympathetic to the idea that during the 28-day period following the provision of a letter, more employers and employees should have hearings and discussions—that they should, in his phrase, use that period. Will he give businesses guidance on that?
      4.45 pm
      Alan Johnson: By the time we have finished, businesses will have guidance on all aspects of the Bill coming out of their ears. The proposals are very important, especially for small businesses. There are 600,000 workplaces with no discipline or grievance procedures. Those employers are under no obligation to put such procedures in the written statement that goes to every employee because they employ fewer than 20 people. We have changed that requirement also, but the matter will need careful guidance, which I certainly undertake to supply.
      The hon. Member for Boston and Skegness asked how the admissibility regime would apply to a complaint by a redundant former employee. As I said when I moved the new clause, we do not envisage that the procedure will apply to former employees. For them, the relationship between employer and employee has been broken, so why should they write to a person who is no longer their employer? However, we believe that, with careful guidance, the step one procedure would help clarify and resolve constructive dismissal cases, without recourse to a full-blown tribunal.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley) also contributed to the debate. She was absolutely right to say that we must recognise that there could be circumstances in which it would be difficult for an employee to go even as far as writing a letter and waiting for the 28-day period.
      The hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) supplied some very welcome flattery, and that is always appreciated. However, I do not agree with him, for the reasons that I set out earlier.
      I shall spend a second on amendment (a), in the name of the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge. It deals with the necessary powers contained in new clause 6 that would allow the Bill to be amended by secondary legislation. New clause 6(8) provides the power to extend the scope of the clause to non-employees. We will debate that matter again in connection with new clause 2, so I shall not spend much time on it now, other than to suggest that Opposition Members are making a considerable mountain out of a molehill.
      Proposed new subsection (8) provides the power to amend the admissibility criteria by order. We consider that to be prudent and sensible. We think that we have set
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      sound and reasonable criteria that will encourage dialogue without delaying access to tribunals, but experience may show that the admissibility criteria could helpfully be recast.
      For instance, it is conceivable that the 28-day period might be too short for proper dialogue to take place. We need to learn from experience about that, which is why we have given ourselves the power to deal with the matter in secondary legislation. In proposed new subsection (9), we have committed ourselves to consult the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service before making any changes in this area. Likewise, I would expect that we would consult widely before proposing any changes.
      I therefore hope that the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge will not press amendment (a), and that the House will endorse new clause 6 and the associated amendments.
      Question put and agreed to.
      Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

    New Clause 1

      REPORT ON IMPACT OF ACT
      Not later than one year from the date of coming into force of this Act, the Secretary of State shall prepare and publish a report on the impact of the Act, including in particular an assessment of:

      (a) the total cost to employers of complying with the Act; and

      (b) the total cost to public funds of the Act; and

      (c) the distribution of costs and benefits arising from the Act between:

      (i) employers;

      (ii) employees of different descriptions; and

      (iii) others.

      and the Secretary of State shall, on each anniversary of the date of such publication, publish a revision of that report.'.—[Mr. Hammond.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Mr. Hammond: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 3—Assessment of costs to businesses—
      '(1) The Secretary of State shall, within one year of the coming into effect of this Act, prepare and publish an assessment of the average administrative costs per employee to businesses of complying with each of the requirements of this Act
      (2) The Secretary of State shall, by Regulations, provide for the average administrative cost per employee as determined by the assessment under (1) above to be reimbursed to employers from public funds.'.
      New clause 4—Assessment of resources of the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service—
      '( ) Before making any order under section 55(2) of this Act relating to Parts 2 and 3, the Secretary of State shall prepare and publish an assessment of the additional resources likely to be required by the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service as a consequence of the coming into force of Parts 2 and 3.'.
      Mr. Hammond: New clause 1 would require the Secretary of State to make regular assessments of the Act's ongoing impact on employers and public funds.

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      It also focuses attention on the distribution of costs and benefits between different groups, including between different groups of employees.
      We believe that many of the Bill's provisions are positive, and we welcome them. However, it is disingenuous to pretend—or imply—that the measures do not have costs. Businesses will face costs in terms of potential job creation, given that the Bill will reduce flexibility in the labour force. In addition, the Bill will benefit some members of a work force, inevitably at the expense of others. It is therefore right and appropriate to require the Secretary of State to focus attention on such matters by preparing and publishing regular reports on the effect and outcome of the Bill in real life.
      The Bill is wide ranging. The first part deals with paternity pay and leave and with adoption pay and leave, and extensions to rights of maternity leave. The second and third parts deal with tribunal reform and improving disciplinary and grievance procedures. The fourth part is a hotch-potch, dealing with everything else. I want to focus on the first part and clause 47, the new clause introduced by the Government in Committee that deals with the right to ask for flexible working terms for employees who have children below school age or, in certain specified circumstances, older children where a disability is involved. There is also a question in terms of cost impact relating to fixed-term work, but as we will debate that matter later, I shall avoid talking about it now.
      We generally support the family friendly approach of the first part of the Bill, but, in most cases, we should see the benefits delivered not as benefits to employers—although when labour markets are tight, they may help employers recruit and retain staff—or as benefits to individual employees, but primarily as benefits to society as a whole.
      It is unquestionable that anything we can do to strengthen families and support parents in the raising of children will have a significant benefit to society as a whole. We will have a better-educated and motivated work force, as well as a more stable social fabric. This is a social good from which we hope all of us will benefit in terms of less delinquency, better education, better-behaved children, less crime and less call on social services and social security to support damaged or collapsed families.
      We support that, but it is important to recognise that this is a benefit to society, and that society should be prepared to pay for it. In some cases, the Bill appears to impose the costs of this benefit to society on one sector of society, namely businesses. Businesses have a finite capacity to absorb additional burdens. If they are damaged by the imposition of too great a burden, that will have a significant effect on society as a whole, as business becomes uncompetitive, the economy is unable to grow, jobs are not created and wealth does not expand.
      In terms of the first part of the Bill, the direct costs will be met by society as a whole through the reimbursement by the Treasury of the costs of the direct payments for paternity and adoption leave and additional maternity leave, but the indirect costs on business will fall first on employers. Time off, sometimes for prolonged periods, will create problems, especially for small businesses. On Second Reading, we rehearsed the impact on a firm
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      employing three or four employees which finds that perhaps one or two of those employees at a time may be absent on statutory leave. Perhaps one of those employees will have a key skill that is essential to keeping the business going. The consequences could be significant if that employee were absent.
      In practice, I have always believed that, in a small firm, a deal will be done with such an employee. Effectively, the employer will end up bribing the employee not to exercise his statutory rights. That is probably a sub-optimal outcome, but one can envisage situations in which it will not be practical for a small business with three or four employees to continue operating for a prolonged period in the absence of a critical employee with a real skill.
      The real cost to a small business of losing a key employee is not, as the regulatory impact assessment suggests, the administrative costs of replacing him with someone else, or sharing out his work to others; it is the opportunities forgone.
      In the real world of small business, the order not pursued or the customer not served will represent the costs involved in lost output, lost profitability and, perhaps at the extreme margin, lost viability for that small business, so part I will involve intangible costs. Flexible working imposes further burdens, and the compliance requirements for smaller employers involved in ensuring that they do not infringe all the obligations placed on them under the Bill will impose yet more burdens on small business.
      Labour Members are fed up with hearing about burdens on business, but burdens on business have a real impact on all of us. The burdens that will be imposed under the Bill cannot be seen in isolation; they have to be seen in the context of a stream of regulations coming from the Government. Last year alone, the Government imposed more new regulations than in any previous year on record. Since 1997, business has had to come to grips with a raft of legislation that stems from the Government's signing up to the social chapter. Business has had to deal with the minimum wage and the working time directive, as well as the Government's determination to treat business as an extension of the welfare state apparatus and the working families tax credit, and there are more administrative burdens to come as business delivers more and more of the Government's in-work welfare programme.
      Business is reeling under that onslaught. The manufacturing sector in particular is under huge pressure, struggling with very tight economic conditions and facing an over-valued exchange rate, or perhaps one should say an under-valued euro, and swingeing tax increases, some of which—for example, the climate change levy—are targeted precisely at the sector, manufacturing industry, least able to cope with them. However, many of our competitors appear to have finally got the message; they are edging away from inflexibility in labour markets and moving back to embrace the benefits of more flexible labour markets. We are moving in the opposite direction, increasing the inflexibility in our labour markets in a way that threatens the competitiveness of British business. That needs to concern us all, not merely those who run and operate businesses.
      Rob Marris: I apologise to the House for the fact that, when I intervened earlier, I failed to say that I am member of the Transport and General Workers Union, that I

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      employ two people in my office and that my constituency Labour party received money from the TGWU before the election, as is recorded in the Register of Members' Interests.
      Will the hon. Gentleman give the House three examples of regulations that he would get rid of? I am sure that he will be able to do so, because I asked that very question on Second Reading, approximately two months ago, so he has had plenty of time to prepare an answer. Which three regulations introduced by the Labour Government that he thinks are burdensome on business and not socially necessary should be got rid of?
      Mr. Hammond: The hon. Gentleman's declaration of interest, which I did not quite catch, ranks as the verbal equivalent of small print, but I am sure that it will make interesting reading in Hansard tomorrow. I do not intend to get involved in going through all 4,600 regulations that the Government introduced last year, looking at their merits and demerits. The hon. Gentleman may be right to imply that I cannot recall all 4,600 of them off the top of my head.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not attempt to stretch his memory. Under new clause 1, we are discussing the Bill's impact, and he need not stray outside it.
      Mr. Hammond: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The point that I am trying to make is that the burdens that will be imposed under the Bill are, of course, incremental. I do not suggest that this Bill alone will be the downfall of British industry. That would be absurd, but the Bill has to be seen in the context of business—in particular, the manufacturing sector—facing extraordinary difficulties because a raft of new burdens, new taxes, new regulations and new legislation has been imposed on it since 1997. We are staring down a pipeline that contains a further vast array of legislation and regulations—which largely originate in Brussels—and that will descend on British business in the not-too-distant future. That is the last thing that business needs at this point in time.
      5 pm
      Judy Mallaber: If the hon. Gentleman is able to talk only about the burdens imposed by this Bill, would he care to tell us which parts of the Bill, other than the provisions for union learning representatives, a proposal with which we know he disagrees, he would get rid of? Would he get rid of the paternity provisions and the adoption provisions? Will he let us know exactly which parts of the Bill he wishes to dispose of?
      Mr. Hammond: The hon. Lady has perhaps missed the point of new clause 1. We must be honest with ourselves in recognising that all the good things in part I will impose costs on business. The next thing I was going to say was that I do not know exactly how damaging those costs will be to business. However, anybody who cares about our economy, growth, jobs and prosperity will want to ensure that we monitor carefully the impact of the legislation passed by the House. Regulatory impact assessments are prepared for Bills considered by the House. However, once we have passed them, off they go.
      New clause 1 suggests that the Secretary of State should attempt to measure annually what the cost impact of the measures in this Bill has been, and continues to be,
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      on business. That would enable us to have an informed debate about the costs and benefits, and also about the incidence of those costs and benefits. It is not a question only of the costs imposed on businesses, but of the costs imposed on other employees in the workplace.
      The Bill has a particular focus on dealing with employees who have young children. However, if we accept the premise that business has a limited capacity to absorb additional burdens and remain competitive, we are selecting one group of employees for favourable treatment against other groups of employees who believe that they have claims for similarly favourable treatment. Of course, parents of young children can make a strong argument for a right to ask for flexible working, and strong arguments can be made for granting paternity leave to help strengthen families at the time of a birth. However, other employees look after elderly relatives, and in many cases they spare the state a very expensive burden. We should also consider employees who look after adults with disabilities.
      Many employers attempt to be even-handed and flexible in dealing with their employees and their requests for flexible working or periods for time off. The fear must be that if one group of employees is given an absolute statutory right to ask for flexible working and to have that application considered by an employer who has to provide reasoned arguments if he will not grant the request, the natural reaction of employers will be to resist granting such extra statutory rights to other employees who are not entitled to them under the law. Therefore, a cost will be imposed on other employees in the workplace because of the real benefits being extended to a particular group of employees.
      Mr. Kevan Jones: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is also a benefit to business and industry if parents do not have to worry about having to get time off to look after young children? Productivity may increase. Companies that have invested in training and other matters and that allow women, in particular, to work flexibly could therefore retain them in the work force.
      Mr. Hammond: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. In many cases, particularly in areas where the labour market is tight, employers will take the kind of measures that we are discussing entirely for reasons of self-interest. I do not disagree with that for a moment. I do, however, take issue with the suggestion that we should get into the business of Governments using legislation to force employers to do things because they are good for them. In general, the Government's record in second-guessing the best way to run a business is not top quartile. If courses of action are available to a business which a rational manager might take for himself, that should be left to education rather than legislation to determine. Frankly, I would not trust the Government to impose the best management course of action in legislation.
      Mark Tami: The hon. Gentleman talks about forcing employers to act. How does he square the re-authorisation of trade union membership with that?
      Mr. Hammond: I am not sure that I follow the hon. Gentleman.
      Mark Tami: I refer to check-off, which the previous Government forced employers to carry out every three years.
      Mr. Hammond rose—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I sense that the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) is being led out of the confines of the new clause. It might be best if he does not pursue that argument.
      Mr. Hammond: I am grateful for that ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall plead ignorance in line with a sedentary comment from my hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) who also thinks that Chekhov is a playwright.
      It is not clear that the proposed measures will help UK business in the struggle to maintain productivity in the face of competition from overseas and the black economy, which we discussed in Committee. That touches on what the hon. Gentleman said. It is also worth remembering that every time we impose more legislative burdens on business, we widen the competitive advantage enjoyed by those who operate in the black economy and increase their ability to undercut responsible firms that abide by legislation, good or bad, that we introduce.
      Costs that are borne by business will have to be absorbed in their total labour cost. The cost to a business of treating one employee will inevitably reduce what should be available to other employees as wages. Those employees who do not benefit from the costs that are imposed on business will be cross-subsidising their colleagues in the workplace. I am not suggesting that it is necessarily wrong to introduce such measures, many of which we welcome, but it is wrong to pretend that they do not have a cost to business, the economy and fellow employees. We have introduced new clause 1 to focus on that cost and to find a mechanism for regularly reviewing and assessing its level.
      New clause 3 is supplementary to the purpose of new clause 1. It requires the Secretary of State to focus on the administrative cost to business of implementing the measures and to provide for reimbursement from public funds for that. Businesses are increasingly being asked to perform a role that was previously carried out by the state, especially in relation to administering the welfare state. The burdens are being imposed not just for the benefit of business itself but for the wider benefit of society, and they should be paid for by the public through taxation.
      The Minister and the Secretary of State were keen to emphasise on Second Reading that small businesses at least will be reimbursed for 100 per cent. of their direct costs in dealing with maternity pay, paternity pay, adoption pay and so on. That is right, although it does not extend to all businesses. However, there is also a significant indirect cost to businesses. We do not know the size of the cost, but the best guide that we have is in the regulatory impact assessment. New clause 3 would provide a mechanism for regularly assessing that cost and arranging for it to be picked up by the public purse.
      I understand that the Carter review of the cost to business of payroll compliance is under way. Perhaps the Minister will tell the House about the progress of that review, or perhaps it is a state secret that will be revealed by the Chancellor on Budget day. Many small businesses
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      place a great deal of hope on the outcome of the review. They hope it will lead to a recognition by the Government that as businesses are being asked to do more and more of the state's administrative work in relation to employees, their costs must be reimbursed. Businesses may well be an efficient means of delivering services because they are geared up to administering the work of the welfare state and delivering benefits to employees, but they must be reimbursed.
      New clause 4 deals with the resourcing of the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service. The original scheme for tribunal reform considered by the Government was intended to generate revenue through a system of fees. Under pressure, the Government scrapped that system. Until this evening, I had thought that parts 2 and 3 were intended to reduce the work load of tribunals, so I was a little surprised to hear the Minister say he thought it likely—indeed, I think he said inevitable—that the work load would increase. That makes new clause 4 doubly important because it deals with the adequate resourcing of ACAS in fulfilling its responsibilities under the Bill.
      It is apparent to everyone that if the Bill is successful in reducing the burden on tribunals by diverting cases away, an additional burden may fall on ACAS. We probed the Minister on this matter but did not get a satisfactory answer. The new clause would require the Secretary of State to undertake a formal assessment of the resourcing requirements of ACAS before implementing parts 2 and 3. One of the many matters on which Members on both sides of the House have agreed during the proceedings on the Bill is that ACAS has a vital role, and it is essential that it is properly resourced to perform that role.
      In Committee, we merrily talked about conciliation officers being available for this, that and the other, but ACAS is already under great pressure. Whether the work load of tribunals increases or, with a greater number of cases being handled outside the tribunal system, substantially decreases, there is likely to be a significant increase in the demand for ACAS services. I hope that the Minister will enlighten us as to what his Department envisages for the future adequate resourcing of ACAS. How can we ensure that this will not be a half-baked measure and that parts 2 and 3 will not come into force without ACAS having been given sufficient resources to cope with the responsibility placed on it by the Bill?
      Brian Cotter: The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) may be surprised to find that the tent to which he referred is bigger than he thought because the Liberal Democrats support new clause 1. We agree that there should be an annual assessment of the impact of the Bill, which makes several changes to employment law. Although employees will benefit from new employment rights such as flexible working provision, we must recognise that those new rights will have an impact on businesses, which will have to comply with new regulations.
      5.15 pm
      Small businesses in particular will be affected. Before Second Reading, I met representatives of the Federation of Small Businesses who expressed the hope—perhaps it is a forlorn one, but we must take it on board—that small businesses would not be forced to take on the burden of too many more regulations and that any new regulations

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      that were introduced would be examined extremely carefully. That is why we Liberal Democrats strongly support the concept of examining regularly all sorts of regulations that affect business. In fact, we would support an annual horizontal impact assessment of all regulations. I cannot talk about that now as it would not be in order to do so in this debate, but it is something that should be done regularly.
      Mr. Prisk: For my benefit, will the hon. Gentleman clarify what an annual horizontal assessment is?
      Brian Cotter: It covers everything that confronts businesses—all sorts of regulations. However, I am not supposed to drift on to subjects that we are not debating; I chipped this one in quickly, but I had better move back to the clause. That regulations should be examined has long been a Liberal Democrat view—in fact, I think that my party was the first to make such a proposal.
      Mr. Lloyd: Given that the purpose of the new clauses is to examine the costs arising from the Bill, will the hon. Gentleman estimate the cost to Government and other sources of the exercise he describes?
      Brian Cotter: If the hon. Gentleman means the costs of the exercise of examining, I cannot estimate them. However, it is not unreasonable to suppose that they need not be excessive. We have regulatory impact assessments in respect of Bills, and even if the proposal in the new clause were to carry a cost, it would surely be repaid in terms of enabling us to see the legislation's impact and to address certain matters.
      Mr. David Watts: My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) was trying to identify the rationale prevailing among the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. You seem to be arguing against an increase in bureaucracy, but at the same time you—
      Deputy Speaker: Order. I am arguing against nothing.
      Brian Cotter: Indeed, Mr. Deputy Speaker. That was well out of order. We are saying simply that we have long argued in favour of an annual assessment of the impact on the business community of all regulations and Bills.
      I do not support the logic of the arguments of the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge in respect of costs. Will he explain what sort of costs he believes should be removed once the assessment is complete? There are many reasons to carry out an assessment—for example, to see how regulations are implemented, how much red tape is added and how many requirements fall on small businesses.
      We accept that costs will be associated with good regulations such as those covering maternity and paternity leave, which we strongly support. I do not decry those regulations, which are acceptable. Indeed, they are necessary to improve the workplace. However, when the Government implemented European regulations on part-time working, provisions that were two or three pages long in some countries ended up being 40 or 50 pages long in this country.
      Helen Jones: I question the feasibility of what the hon. Gentleman is supporting. New
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      clause 1 would require an assessment of the impact of the legislation on employees of different descriptions. How will we collect that information? How will that be done, unless every employee completes a form stating whether he or she has children or a disabled relative, for example?
      Brian Cotter: I support the argument that there must be assessment. Would the hon. Lady say that we should not assess the cost to business? Certainly not. Should we not assess how much red tape is unnecessary? I give credit to hon. Members on both sides of the House, because we are all considering how to examine Bills to determine what can be done away with and how we might say, "In practice, we do not need this rule, or that piece of paper." I am concerned that that process should be regularly undertaken.
      Whether we accept costs depends on the Bill. I accept costs that relate to social requirements, including maternity and paternity leave, but there is laxity in the way in which Bills are introduced. Many regulations can be introduced after a Bill is enacted, for example.
      Judy Mallaber: Taking up the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington, North (Helen Jones) on the distribution of costs and benefits between employees of different descriptions, can the hon. Gentleman think of any way in which such assessments could be made without asking employers to be involved in collecting that information? Such involvement would clearly place another burden on them.
      Brian Cotter: I have always supported the principle of examining Bills. Sampling procedures can be carried out to assess impacts. There are different ways of assessing different things. Specific details will turn on particular Bills and particular regulations. Are we calling into question impact assessments altogether? They must be carried out before a Bill is in place. One of my long-standing criticisms, along with my Liberal Democrat colleagues, is that such assessments have not been carried out adequately. We are arguing that the assessments should be undertaken adequately, regularly and on a continuing basis.
      Mr. Hammond: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is alarming that Labour Members appear to be reluctant to accept an assessment of costs? It is a matter not of ruling out things because of costs, but of wanting to know what the costs are, so that we can behave rationally and understand what we are doing. It is appalling to think that we should work while blind.
      Brian Cotter: I agree, although having said that there is a broad tent, I do not incorporate into that everything for which the hon. Gentleman stands, such as reluctance to introduce a minimum wage. However, I am not supposed to refer to that, so I had better press on.
      I think that I have sufficiently addressed the issue. I ask the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge to be more specific about the costs that concern him. What are the costs that he thinks could be cut? I accept the principle of assessing costs but I would like more detail, either now or later.
      Mr. Hammond: I am grateful for the opportunity to intervene again. Contrary to what the hon. Gentleman said

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      earlier, we want to assess the costs not only of the things that we think are bad, but of those that we think are good. We want to assess all costs and benefits and their incidence so that we can make informed decisions. I cannot tell him whether the Bill contains proposals involving costs that are too great for the benefits that they will deliver unless and until there is assessment, which will allow proper and rational decisions to be made.
      Brian Cotter: I think that I shall leave it at that for fear of being drawn into any suggestion that Liberal Democrats do not support maternity and paternity leave and other welcome and worthwhile proposals. We must regularly examine the impact of regulations and Bills on business. I am sure that the Minister will find it difficult to argue against that. I look forward to what he and other colleagues have to say.
      Rob Marris: I shall principally address new clause 3. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) talked about flexibility in the labour market which, of course, we need. He also mentioned manufacturing, which is particularly important to me as a Member representing a west midlands constituency. He talked about benefits to society being imposed on business by some of the Bill's provisions. New clause 3, which he tabled, deals with working out average costs and reimbursing them to employers; that is contrary to my view of the way in which small business operates and, I suspect, to his views. The cost for small businesses of complying with administrative requirements is often higher than it is for bigger businesses yet, in the new clause, the hon. Gentleman simply wants an average cost to be reimbursed.
      The hon. Gentleman assumes—I do not—that there is a cost; many of the Bill's provisions will benefit business. Thanks to the Labour Government, employment has gone up a great deal, and there are scarcities in the labour market. That can benefit business, as it means that it will not lose part of its trained work force. Is the hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that, as a consequence of the new clause, we go into negative accounting? If there is a demonstrable benefit from the Bill's provisions—my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) adverted to it—should business reimburse the state for having introduced them? I suspect that the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge does not believe that it should.
      Training is increasingly offered by the state, which is not to say that many businesses do not do a lot of training. In most cases, the Government do not seek to charge business directly for undergoing that training. In such things, there are trade-offs in any society; the new clause is therefore misconceived.
      Mr. Hammond: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the Carter review to which I referred earlier? Does he anticipate a gesture in response to that review, as proposed by the new clause? The state should recognise that in some cases significant costs previously borne by the state are transferred to business through business administration, particularly of in-work welfare schemes.
      Rob Marris: I am not about to prejudge the outcome of the Carter review. We must consider the practicalities
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      of the way in which legislation operates, as I know the hon. Gentleman wishes to do. He talked about benefits being imposed on business; however, the flavour of his remarks was that, for example, he and his colleagues might wish to get rid of a swathe of health and safety legislation, which is massively beneficial to business and those who work in business. I hope that he will give an assurance that he and his party do not intend to do so. No doubt he will address that issue when he sums up.
      The hon. Gentleman also mentioned favourable treatment for parents when he discussed flexible working. I am delighted that there is favourable treatment for parents; I say so as someone who, sadly, is not a parent, despite my best endeavours and those of my partner. Although I am not a parent, the next generation will look after me in my old age, assuming that I have the privilege of reaching an old age. I hope that my nephews and nieces are prepared to look after me as carers, if it comes to that. I salute the hon. Gentleman for suggesting that carers should be included in flexible working. I only wish that he had tabled an amendment to that effect; we could have debated it and heard the Minister's views.
      Finally, on new clause 4. I hope that the Minister will give us an assurance that sufficient resources will be available to the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service to do any extra work that may be required under the Bill. I am not saying that the Bill will require extra work, but if it does, I hope that the Minister can give us that assurance.
      Mr. Mark Field: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Members for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) and for Weston-super-Mare (Brian Cotter). I suspect that the tent will not be big enough to keep us all happy, but I hope that our debate will continue in an easy-going manner.
      I want to address in particular new clause 1, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) gave such a skilful introduction.
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      I well understand what was said in relation to part 1. Although I did not serve on the Standing Committee, I have paid close attention to the Bill, which is clearly important. Behind it is a practical analysis of the modern world of work, and I fully appreciate that the family needs and responsibilities, especially of young employees, must be catered for. I should like to think, though, that many sensible and responsible employers have catered for them on a voluntary basis, without the need for legislative constraint. I recognise that the Minister will no doubt point out that some employers do not play the game and make life difficult for employees who find themselves in dire straits, for whatever reason.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge hit the nail on the head. There is a great cost not just to businesses, but to fellow employees arising from many of the new rights that have been put in place. It is highly unfair, particularly in a tight employment

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      market and in a small business context, that people who by choice are not parents, for example, find an increasing burden placed on their shoulders.
      Helen Jones: Can the hon. Gentleman enlighten me? In new clause 1(c)(iii), who are the "others", who are neither employers nor employees? How would he carry out an assessment of the costs and benefits of the Bill to them?
      Mr. Field: There are external costs that will not be borne directly by either employers or employees, but which may be borne by a range of bodies. For example, to promote the Act it is likely that there will be a large amount of advertising via various Government Departments, which have been known to extol the virtues of their own legislation. That expense would be covered by sub-paragraph (iii).
      Mr. Hammond: The hon. Member for Warrington, North (Helen Jones) does not seem satisfied with my hon. Friend's answer. The most obvious "others", neither employees nor employers, are surely the Government—the public purse.
      Mr. Field: I hoped that that was the point that I was making. I thank my hon. Friend.
      Earlier, the Minister proudly announced the support of the CBI. Central to the proposal set out in the new clause is the protection of small businesses. The CBI has supported in principle a number of pieces of legislation that have been introduced in the past five years. I hasten to add that the CBI was also supportive of much legislation passed over the previous 18 years. One of the reasons for that support is that larger businesses are well catered for. They have the infrastructure in place. They have large human resources or personnel departments.
      That luxury is not available to many small and medium-sized enterprises. With 10 or 15 employees, they will often not have a dedicated HR department or a payroll department. That goes to the heart of the issue that my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Frisk) has made his own—the Carter report and the incumbent expenses on the payroll that have been brought into play by recent legislation, rules and regulations. That is a great concern to many small businesses. If the Bill is enacted, there should be an early opportunity for a full assessment of the cost to small business resulting from the new rules and regulations.
      My chief concern is that many of the proposals will provide a strong disincentive for smaller employers to increase their work force. That is especially true of small, vibrant organisations which, by the nature of their business, employ a lot of young employees. With 10 employees, say, all of whom are in their 20s or early 30s, there is a risk that two or three will be on paternity or maternity leave at any one time. The prospect of having to keep those jobs open for any length of time, especially when the economy may start to go through a more difficult phase, may result in such businesses deciding that they should not grow any larger. If rules and regulations provide a disincentive to businesses to employ more than, say, 12, 15 or 20 employees, those businesses may have to set up small subsidiaries that operated under a different umbrella in order to get round the rules. That would be an unhealthy state of affairs, but the provisions in the new clauses could alert us to this at an early stage.
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      In many of our constituencies, whether they be the heart of the City of London, which I represent, or some of those represented by Labour Members, the days of large-scale employers being able to offer many thousands of jobs are gone. The small and medium-sized enterprise sector is the real vehicle for employment growth in the years ahead.
      Mr. George Osborne: It is welcome to have a chance to debate the important new clauses moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond). They go to the heart of the Bill as regards the costs and benefits that it will impose on our society and our economy.
      As hon. Members who served on the Committee will know, many parts of the Bill are uncontroversial. Widespread support was given to the extension of maternity rights, the creation of new paternity rights and, especially, the creation of new rights for adoptive parents. Conservative Members found themselves in the refreshing position of arguing for more rights for adoptive parents, which is a good sign. However, the Government must accept that those rights are not introduced without costs to society and to business. Indeed, the Government's regulatory impact assessment makes it clear that substantial costs are involved. Maternity leave will cost taxpayers £305 million and paternity leave and paternity pay will cost employers £64 million and taxpayers £63 million.
      New clause 3 gives us the opportunity to debate where those costs should fall. Should they fall on employers, on employees or on society as a whole? If we as a society want stronger families and believe that it is right for parents to take time off to help to bring up their children, it is important that we give them a chance to do so. We should provide financial support, if necessary, or the chance to take a career break before returning to work. It is welcome that in recent years hon. Members of all parties have come to accept that.
      Other parts of the Bill received less general support in Committee. Hon. Members have mentioned union learning representatives and the requirement on employers to give them paid leave. The Government predict a massive increase in the number of union learning representatives, from 3,000 at present to 22,387 in eight years' time—I am not sure how they managed to be so precise in predicting that figure. Many of those will be in the public sector. An illuminating fact that was mentioned in Committee was that the Department for Education and Skills has no union learning representatives.
      The cost of the union learning representatives clauses will be considerable. The cost to employers of the clauses on fixed-term work could amount to £136 million. The Government estimate in the regulatory impact assessment that the huge new right—the duty to consider flexible working—will cost employers £286 million, possibly more. As I think that the Minister would freely admit, we are not sure whether that figure is remotely accurate, because the provision opens up a whole new area.
      Judy Mallaber: The hon. Gentleman may be interested in my previous experience as an employer in a small organisation. By helping to rearrange someone's working hours, I saved the money that would have been spent on advertising to recruit a highly skilled employee and on training that person. Employers can cut costs in that way.
      Mr. Osborne: I am happy to accept that flexible and part-time working, and helping employees to spend time

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      with their families, often help a company by improving relationships in the work force, and often ensure that someone who would otherwise leave a company for good comes back to work. We are flying blind, however, so far as the Bill is concerned. We do not know what impact it will have on society and on businesses. New clause 1 will at least give us a route map.
      Mr. Simmonds rose—
      Mr. Hammond rose—
      Mr. Osborne: I shall give way first to my Back-Bench colleague.
      Mr. Simmonds: Does my hon. Friend accept that we must consider not just the direct impact of the Bill but the administration that will ensue, particularly in small businesses that do not have personnel departments? That will be the real impact on the running of the business.
      Mr. Osborne: My hon. Friend is right; real indirect costs arise from places being left vacant that are difficult to fill. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge wish to pursue his intervention?
      Mr. Hammond: Is my hon. Friend surprised that, notwithstanding the lessons of history, hon. Members on the other side still apparently believe in the power of the statute to tell businesses what they should do in their own best interests? Does he not find that quite startling?
      Mr. Osborne: My hon. Friend is right: that is indeed striking. One of the things that I would have expected the Labour party to learn from the supply-side reforms of the 1980s is that we cannot continue piling costs and legislation on businesses without having an effect on their competitiveness. When economists and historians look back on this period of history, they will judge those supply-side reforms to have laid the foundation for the strong economic growth that we have enjoyed for the last 10 years.
      There is no real evidence of what impact the Bill will have on businesses and on society. Anyone who has read the regulatory impact assessment will know that it uses fantasy figures to try to calculate the possible costs and benefits to employers, which are almost impossible to calculate in advance. It would surely be much more sensible to ask businesses what the costs were likely to be. It has been suggested that that would represent an extra cost to businesses, but in my experience, small employers are only too happy to tell me what the costs of Government regulations have been for them. They have always been very happy to volunteer that information.
      It clearly makes sense that we should have some idea of the cost of the employment legislation that we introduce.
      Rob Marris rose—
      Mrs. Betty Williams rose—
      Mr. Osborne: I shall give way to my good friend, the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris).
      Rob Marris: I am obliged. I think that I understood the hon. Gentleman to concede that, in certain circumstances,
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      businesses could save money through the measures in the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Judy Mallaber) gave an example earlier in relation to advertisements and so on. Will the hon. Gentleman also concede that, if the new clause were added to the Bill and the ensuing investigations showed that a business was, overall, saving money through the measures, that money should be reimbursed to the Government? That seems to be the logic of what he is proposing.
      Mr. Osborne: I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that point. Businesses are already paying through the nose to the Government because of the huge increases in business taxation that have been piled on over the last four years. Frankly, we cannot ask them to pay any more.
      Mr. Prisk: I would like to review new clauses 1, 3 and 4 in the style of the Miss World contest, by taking them in reverse order.
      I want to begin by looking at new clause 4. At the beginning of Second Reading and in subsequent claims and comments by the Secretary of State and the Minister, we heard proud—and, I think, genuine—claims about the potential for the Bill to improve the situation in the workplace. In a letter to all colleagues in the House, the Minister stated:
      "The Bill will improve the way disputes are managed in the workplace."
      He went on to say that
      "the Bill introduces a simple internal procedure and encourages both parties to use it."
      He also said:
      "The Government is committed to … a modern and user-friendly public service, and well-informed users."
      Those are all good and noble intentions that underpin the purpose of the Bill. The difficulty is that, no matter how hard I looked through the Bill, the explanatory notes and the subsequent regulatory impact assessment, I found nothing that specifically identified the resources required to achieve the aims set out in the Bill's preamble and by the Minister during his promotion of it.
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      New clause 4 would enable an accurate assessment of the costs to ACAS, and thereby allow it to plan. That is particularly important in the light of the Minister's interesting comment that he foresees that the number of cases coming before employment tribunals will probably rise in years to come, despite many earlier statements to the contrary by him and his colleagues. It is right to bring that principle of assessment to the heart of a vital part of the Bill.
      Although I do not want to overdo the cross-party consensus, I strongly support the request from the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) that the Minister make it clear that resources will be forthcoming. New clause 4 would allow him to ensure that those resources are accurately identified and brought forward appropriately.
      If I may, I shall discuss new clauses 1 and 3. On publication, the Bill was accompanied by an initial estimate of costs and benefits. I have in front of me the explanatory notes—all Members will doubtless have read them from cover to cover—which set out how the costs

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      and benefits will affect employers, the individuals concerned and taxpayers. I wish to focus on the costs to employers. In keeping with the initial regulatory impact assessment, the explanatory notes refer to a one-off cost to employers of £97 million, and an annual run-on cost of a further £272 million. On the basis of the initial estimates, we can therefore envisage a cost of £369 million in the first year and £272 million in the years following.
      There is a flaw, however. Although I do not intend to be prejudicial about its content, this is not a complete Bill. It is an enabling Bill that is merely a framework. Throughout our deliberations in Committee, the Minister and his hon. Friends told us that the Bill will lead to many regulations, so the danger is that to rely on the initial regulatory impact assessment is to consider an incomplete Bill. To do so is like paying merely for the first and main courses in a restaurant without taking into account the pudding and the wine bill.
      The difficulty is that regulations have not been tabled, so they cannot be costed. The £272 million is the beginning—the minimum. The danger is that, when those regulations are enacted, the House will be unable to consider and itemise the costs. As my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) rightly said, those costs could well be substantial. That is my concern.
      On the right to request flexible working, the Government produced in Committee, rather belatedly, a subsequent regulatory impact assessment, albeit that the Minister was open enough to point out that it is a partial assessment. I realise that members of the Standing Committee are probably worried that my enthusiasm for reading regulatory impact assessments might not be good for my long-term health, but I pursued the matter and went through the assessment in great detail.
      It became apparent that the new clause on flexible working, which was introduced at the end of the Committee's deliberations, adds £38 million in the first year and a further £286 million every year thereafter. As the mathematicians present will understand, that is not merely a small increase in the original bill of £272 million. The increase resulting from introducing one extra clause more than doubles the original cost. The annual cost of this Bill was initially £272 million. It has now risen to £558 million—and, as I say, I fear that that is only the price of the dessert. Perhaps we have not yet considered the price of the wine and the petits fours.
      My first reason for supporting new clause 1 is the need for a comprehensive assessment of all the costs. My second is that it rightly seeks to distinguish between different employers, and between different burdens borne by employers. Because the Secretary of State has reserved a number of powers, we do not yet know how they will impact on the various players. We therefore need an assessment that is comprehensive, and also distinguishes between different types of employer.
      The creation of new rights, and the cost of administering them, will always pose fewer difficulties for larger employers. As my hon. Friends have pointed out, a large company with a human resources or personnel department will be able to deal with such matters. However, the Bill will impose a huge new set of burdens on small employers—not least the increased time that will have to be spent on ensuring that the business, perhaps a family firm, is sticking to the letter of the law.
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      To be fair, I must add that the Government have acknowledged in the explanatory notes and the regulatory impact assessment that the Bill will place a disproportionate burden on small employers. Notwithstanding Labour scepticism, I think that the burden will be experienced in two ways. First, there is the problem of time. The Bill contains 53 clauses and seven schedules, and heaven knows how many amendments will be made today. Small businesses will have to try to understand the rules—for instance, those governing the three-step process of dispute resolution. It will take time to understand, implement and verify each of those steps.
      Many small firms are already struggling with the volume of paperwork with which they must deal. I am told by a number of small business organisations that the average small family firm must now spend up to 31 hours a month, the equivalent of four working days, simply complying with existing regulations. That is an appalling statistic, and I fear that the Bill will impose further burdens of time and pressure.
      The second problem is this. While a company employing 100 or 200 people will be able to cover absences for statutory maternity or paternity leave if four or five people have rights to such leave, the burden will clearly be much greater for a small family business employing only four or five people when two people wish to exercise their rights. Although elements of the Bill acknowledge the existence of the problem in financial terms, I am not sure that it has been fully acknowledged.
      The Bill tries to be family friendly; but—I think I made this point on Second Reading—what about the father or mother who must spend time in the evenings and at weekends dealing with paperwork for the family business, rather than spending it with the family itself? That is one of the potential conflicts at the heart of the Bill. It is friendly to some families, but not to all.
      Rob Marris: Of course running a small business is hard. I have helped to do so in my time, as the hon. Gentleman may have. Given that the burden he has just mentioned may fall disproportionately on small business, however, why does he apparently support new clause 3, which refers to an average reimbursement?
      Mr. Prisk: New clause 3 is intended to provide for a clear assessment of the costs and benefits for all concerned. Without that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) pointed out, we shall be flying blind. New clause 3 seeks to ensure that we know the costs, and indeed the potential benefits, so that we can be fair to all parties. New clauses 1 and 3 attempt to identify a problem accurately; they also reinforce the spirit of National Audit Office guidance to Ministers on how regulatory impact assessments should be compiled. The Minister may wish to consider that important aspect.
      All that the three new clauses aim to do is provide an informed assessment of the Bill's impact on those whom it will affect. Although I have grave reservations about the costs to family businesses and other small firms, I think that new clause 1 will allow us to have an informed and intelligent debate.
      Mr. Simmonds: I too support the new clauses. The Bill contains much that is good, particularly the clauses allowing parents flexible working hours when that is

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      appropriate and providing for paternity and extended maternity leave. Having run a small business, however, I believe that they will place additional burdens on such businesses.
      I think we all accept that allowing more rights and greater flexibility in the workplace, where appropriate, is sensible and forward-looking. As my hon. Friends have said, however, the Government must understand that there is a cost to businesses. I am particularly concerned with the cost to small businesses. The provision of dispute resolution and grievance procedures are most likely to have an impact, mostly because they are less likely to have existing procedures from which to develop. According to the regulatory impact study, the total recurring cost—I am not talking about one-off costs—will be up to £610 million.
      That extra money must come from somewhere. In the case of small businesses in particular, it can be found in only three ways. It may come from profits, which means that there is less money to reinvest in the business, thus enabling it to grow and making future jobs possible. It may come from a cut in employment. Some businesses living on the margin will not be able to cope with the additional regulatory burden, or with the extra administration and costs. Those businesses will disappear.
      Mr. Mark Field: My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Prisk) made a good point. There will now be two sorts of employee, those who will benefit and those who are employers in small businesses. The latter will bear a double burden: they may have family commitments, while incurring large costs in terms of both money and time that will not even be included in the £610 million mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Mr. Simmonds).
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      Mr. Simmonds: My hon. Friend makes a sound point. There is a paradox here in that one of the Bill's underlying themes is to create more family friendly policies so that more time can be spent with children. Yet there may be a direct impact, with those who own and run small businesses being able to spend less time with their families because of filling in forms and dealing with the administration and additional regulatory burdens imposed by the Bill.
      It is my view that £610 million is an underestimate. The extension of union learning representatives will have a significant impact on small and large businesses. Furthermore, enormous additional costs could be imposed under the regulations. New clauses 1 and 3 should be considered carefully, otherwise we will have no idea of the costs for businesses.
      It would be strange if the Department of Trade and Industry carried out no assessments and had no monitoring structures to ensure that these provisions did not have a detrimental impact on businesses, small and large. I hope that when he responds, the Minister will say that monitoring structures will be put in place. If not, how on earth will the Minister and his colleagues be able to judge whether the legislation has been a success? The only way in which the hon. Gentleman will be able to tell whether the Bill has been a success is if fewer cases go
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      to employment tribunals, and he has already said that that will not be the case. He must consider the new clauses carefully, as they will ensure the Bill's success.
      Many small businesses struggle to survive. It is only by the hard work and dedication of those who run them that they can thrive in a highly competitive economic situation. The new weight of red tape to be placed on employers needs to be assessed. It is my view, as I stated in Committee, that small businesses with fewer than a certain number of employees should primarily be exempt from certain aspects of the Bill. It is my belief that certain measures will be so detrimental to small businesses and their ability to create employment, grow and drive the economy forward that the voluntary arrangements that are in place and have been thriving in the past should be allowed to continue.
      My view is supported by the Forum of Private Business, which says:
      "The Bill establishes formal provision—whereas small businesses operate more effectively under informal conditions. Where regulatory compliance becomes mandatory and recourse is through legal process, then advocacy requires the production of formal evidence …or in a word, bureaucracy."
      It is not unreasonable for new clauses 1 and 3 to require the Government to report back to the House with a detailed assessment of the Bill's impact. Further burdens are already borne by business, such as the processing of loans and administration of benefits. Those are matters for which the Government are responsible. Fulfilling those tasks takes up valuable management time and distracts from the focus of what management or owners are supposed to do in running small and medium-sized businesses. I hope that that work will be clarified in the Carter review and that it will give recognition to those who run small businesses.

      The burden of regulation on business has greatly increased under this Government. The one theme that runs through the remarks of all the business men and women I meet is that we must reduce red tape. I plead with the Minister: if the Bill goes through, a line must be drawn in the sand. There must be no more additional regulations and burdens placed on businesses, particularly small businesses, which will lead to a further reduction in competitiveness.
      Alan Johnson: The new clauses would impose a regime of evaluation of the measures in the Bill that is both costly and unnecessary. New clause 1 requires an annual report of the impact of these measures. New clause 3 requires an assessment of the average cost to business per employee of administering each measure in the Bill and proposes that those costs be reimbursed from the public purse. New clause 4 seeks an assessment of the additional resources likely to be required by the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service before the measures in parts 2 and 3 of the Bill come into force.
      Let me make it clear that I entirely agree about the importance of effective evaluation policy. We have already provided details of our proposals—they are included in the regulatory impact assessment—to evaluate the impact of the separate provisions in the Bill. That assessment, as hon. Members are aware, is available in the Library. It makes it clear that individual policies will be evaluated effectively. For example, we have accepted the recommendation of Professor Sir George Bain's work and the parents taskforce. That taskforce had

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      representation the CBI, and the splendid Simon Topham, a small business man, and other small business representatives contributed to the nine unanimous recommendations. One recommendation is about taking a baseline survey on current practice on flexible working later this year, with a repeat study, three years later, to measure the effect of the legislation.
      We have taken account of the possible costs to ACAS arising from the implementation of parts 2 and 3 of the Bill and we have assessed the impact on employers of administering the maternity and paternity pay policies.
      Mr. Hammond: The Minister said that the proposals in the new clauses were costly and then went on to say that he intends to carry out precisely the evaluations that we propose. How are his evaluations not costly while the ones proposed in the new clauses would be?
      Alan Johnson: I will be coming to that.
      On flexible working, the specific recommendation from the Bain taskforce was that in such a brave new world, as Conservative Members have said, there was no precedent and that, as we had scant information, we should take measures now because the provisions to set a proper baseline against which to evaluate those procedures will not apply until 2003. Accepting a recommendation to conduct such surveys does not mean that we will accept every proposal to conduct surveys and reconsider costs, as proposed in the new clauses.
      I shall say more about ACAS in a moment. Evaluation is important, but it cannot be produced out of a hat. Immediate impact assessment is often of limited value, as I admitted in Committee. It takes time for evidence to emerge, and it is not always possible to separate the effects of legislation from other changes taking place in individual businesses.
      Conservative Members must decide which way they want to play this. On the one hand, there is a kind of "Letwinisation" that says that these measures are part of a good society and that people should have adoption and paternity leave. On the other hand, there is the old and rather tired view. I pay tribute, however, to the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), who accepted that there were benefits to society but put the fascinating and quite new argument that society should pay for them. They cannot have it both ways.
      The Bill introduces measures that are long overdue. It is ludicrous that adoptive parents have received no help in the past. It is ludicrous that, despite having for 20 years been part of a World Health Organisation drive to encourage mothers to breast feed their children up to six months, we have done nothing about it. It is ludicrous that so many workplaces and workers have no recourse to internal procedures for resolving disputes and grievances.
      These matters must be tackled. Each new clause refers to the cost of a measure for employers and the public purse, but none of them refers to the benefits. I am pleased that some of my hon. Friends talked about the benefits. The family friendly policies, the improved dispute resolution, the modernisation of the tribunal system and the other policies in the Bill are designed to create modern productive workplaces that provide the partnership and flexibility that both employers and employees seek to strengthen business competitiveness.
      Mr. Hammond: The Minister said that none of the new clauses referred to the benefits, but that is not the
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      case. New clause 1 specifically asks for an assessment of the distribution of both the costs and the benefits of the Bill.
      Alan Johnson: I stand corrected on new clause 1, but the Conservatives' whole approach to the debate, including—with a few honourable exceptions—practically all their contributions, has concentrated on the costs rather than the benefits.
      It is true that many of the substantial benefits that will arise for employers are difficult to quantify in financial terms. None the less, it would be wrong to discount them. We do not want to fall into the trap that Oscar Wilde once described, of knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
      Mr. Prisk: One of the key points that we have tried to get across to the Minister is why we feel that there should be a continuing assessment. The reasons are that this is an enabling Bill, not a static item that can be costed instantly, and because things will change and the Secretary of State will have powers to add new elements. That argument lies behind our case, and I do not think that the Minister has tackled it.
      Alan Johnson: If the hon. Gentleman saw me smile just then, I should let him know that I was not smiling at what he was saying; it is just that I could have done without the pager message saying, "Vote on new clause expected soon". I shall deal with the hon. Gentleman's point in a moment; there is a special little bit of my speech dedicated to him.
      There are benefits that can be quantified. Good employment relations lead to improved productivity, better retention of employees and reduced recruitment costs. The average cost of filling a vacancy in 2001 was nearly £4,000—up over 11 per cent. on the previous year—and it is often small firms that find it most damaging to lose valuable staff. If only 10 per cent. of the women who currently do not return to work after maternity leave decided to return as a result of the improvements in maternity rights, employers could save up to £39 million each year in recruitment costs alone.
      We are also taking the pain out of administering the new benefits by enabling employers to claim back in advance the moneys that they are paying out. Small firms will get back more than 100 per cent. of their payments. We are almost doubling the number of small employers who qualify for that benefit, and that is an important step forward.
      Like me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you may remember that once, all employers received 100 per cent. reimbursement of statutory maternity pay, so you, like me, might have wondered where that went, and why they now get only 92 per cent. Lo and behold, it was the Conservative Government in 1994, who reduced the percentage.
      Mr. Lindsay Hoyle: Never.
      Alan Johnson: Yes, that comes under the category of "Strange but True"—an item that I used to read every week in The Eagle. It was the party that is now telling us that we have to pay more attention to business, and not load burdens onto it, that cut the reimbursement of statutory maternity pay from 100 per cent. to 92 per cent.

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      just eight years ago. To coin a phrase, this is a win, win, win scenario. Employers, working people and the economy all gain.
      The new statutory procedures for dispute resolution recognise the needs of businesses, both small and large. Avoiding costly, stressful and time-consuming litigation will benefit employers, employees and the employment tribunal system. The benefits should become apparent in the second year after the introduction of the procedures, producing an annual saving for businesses of between £60 million and £80 million.
      What I said earlier about the number of cases is an honest assessment of how things will look in four or five years' time. The number of cases may have tripled—incidentally, they doubled before any new rights were introduced. That must mean that we have a healthier society in which people are more aware of their rights and less afraid to use them. They are more assertive, and they have more rights to be aware of; I do not apologise for that. I think that there is a consensus, even among Conservative Members, that age discrimination and so on should be tackled, so it would be strange if we did not envisage that at some stage the number of cases would pick up. Current estimates are based on the current number of cases, and we are expecting to make savings. When the new jurisdictions are introduced, having a procedure in the workplace will help to resolve the issues without a tribunal.
      Mr. Hammond: The Minister is in danger of having his last remarks misinterpreted. He appeared to suggest that, as people become more aware of their rights, he welcomes the fact that they are taking more litigious action in support of them. Is he saying that a move towards a more litigious society is to be welcomed?
      Alan Johnson: Not at all. I am suggesting that as so many workers now have no opportunity to exercise those rights so that problems can be resolved in the workplace, it must be right for us to introduce the changes in the Bill.
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      I do not accept that employers should have the right to recover their average costs of complying with each of the requirements of the Bill from the public purse, any more than they should have the right to recover their costs in administering PAYE, national insurance, tax credits or VAT. The best employers already bear many of those costs, because they already recognise the value of providing their employees with those rights.
      We understand the pressures that new regulation puts on business. We have, rightly, spent much time in Committee discussing the proposals, and we are committed to sympathetic implementation of the Bill and to ensuring that employers and employees have enough time to understand and plan for the changes. We will provide clear, accessible, user-friendly guidance to all, particularly small businesses. The Inland Revenue has also expanded the range of help available through business support teams, which now provide one-to-one on-site assistance to employers on every aspect of their obligations in respect of Inland Revenue business.
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      The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge said that some employees would gain from the Bill and some would not. He mentioned flexible working, and I want to address that point again, because I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) on that. It is good of him to join us tonight. He is taking a break from his endeavours to become a father, so I hope that he can hang around until the end of the debate.
      My hon. Friend was right to point out that we have a two-pronged approach. There is regulation; we are introducing the measures for parents of children under six because we do not want to miss out a generation. Best practice often emerges from small businesses, which have some cracking arrangements for flexible working, which help to recruit and retain staff. We are spreading that best practice for parents and small children.
      As the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge recognised, we all have a stake in helping to ensure that children are raised properly. We cannot wait a generation. There is also the work-life balance campaign. We have an enormous interest in spreading best practice for flexible working even when it is unrelated to parenthood. It might be that people have other caring responsibilities, or simply want to pursue a hobby. This is a two-pronged attack.
      I have heard the backlash argument from several quarters, although the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge did not put it so—[Interruption.] That is true; he did not put it at all—but that does not stop me from replying to the point, in case he does put it.
      The backlash argument diminishes and insults working people, who in the wide consultation that we conducted in workplaces never once raised that idea. Of course, they understood the need for mothers and fathers to spend more time with their small children, and yes, many of them said that they would like the same kind of flexible arrangements for themselves, but they did not say it out of resentment.
      Mr. Hammond: I shall put that argument now, in response to the Minister. Just for the record, does he acknowledge that when it is ruled either by the courts or through new statutory provisions that, for example, a policewoman with a small child does not have to work a night shift, by definition her colleagues who are not mothers of small children will have to work more undesirable night shifts? Is that not a logical and inevitable consequence?
      Alan Johnson: That is a depressing approach to the clause. The answer to the question is no, not at all. In the vast majority of cases, such problems are resolved when one employee suggests that a change in shifts would be beneficial, and then finds a colleague willing to change out of a rigid shift system.
      Mr. Hammond indicated dissent
      Alan Johnson: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but it requires only a little thought and imagination to break away from the rigid systems that developed when women were largely absent from the workplace because only men had full-time jobs. I think that the hon. Gentleman is wrong in that regard.

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      I am conscious that I need to make some progress. My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West also referred to ACAS, and the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge was right in new clause 4, to draw attention to that body's importance in matters covered by parts 2 and 3 of the Bill. However, in seeking an assessment of additional resources likely to be required by ACAS when the measures in this Bill are implemented, the hon. Gentleman is once again concentrating on costs and ignoring benefits. It is clear from the responses received from all parties to the "Routes to Resolution" consultation paper that the services of ACAS are highly regarded. That body will play a key role in ensuring that businesses, especially small businesses, have the advice and guidance that they need.
      We fully support that role. During the financial period 1998–99 to 2000–01, funding for ACAS has increased from £26.2 million to £32.4 million, a rise of 23 per cent. As I said earlier, the regulatory impact assessment of the Bill already refers to the possible costs to, and efficiency gains for, ACAS arising from the implementation of parts 2 and 3 of the Bill. However, the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge will be aware that the employment tribunals system taskforce, set up by my Department and the Lord Chancellor's Department and headed by Janet Gaymer, is considering the resources of the employment tribunal system as a whole. The operational impact on both ACAS and the ETS of the policies included in parts 2 and 3 will be part of that consideration. The taskforce reports in spring this year, and we shall take account of all its recommendations when considering the funding needs of ACAS.
      As I said earlier, however, there are benefits as well as costs to consider. The dispute-resolution measures in the Bill are designed to encourage parties to resolve their problems in the workplace. That should reduce the number of cases resorting to litigation and using ACAS services. Secondly, clause 24 introduces a fixed conciliation period. That will free up conciliators' time to deal with claims in which both parties are engaged in the conciliation process, and will allow ACAS to concentrate on the cases where its expertise is needed most.
      Overall, the policies in the Bill strike a balance between rights and responsibilities in the workplace. I was shocked and surprised by what the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Brian Cotter) said. People are rushing in and out of my tent at great speed, but the hon. Gentleman was guilty of trying to have it both ways. Liberal Democrat Members seem to lurch from one position to another, depending on whether they are trying to win seats in the north or the south-west. We well remember that they opposed the windfall levy that supported the new deal, and that they supported a regional minimum wage. Now, almost alone, they propose that the national rate for the minimum wage should be available for people aged 16. That is an incredible change from their original policy. I am therefore disappointed with the hon. Gentleman, who needs to rethink his approach to the Bill.
      The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge asked whether I could say anything about the Carter committee, or whether it was a state secret. The Small Business Service has conducted a series of focus groups to obtain views about the recommendations made by Patrick Carter in his payroll review. Small businesses and other interested parties participated fully.
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      The SBS subsequently submitted a report to the Inland Revenue that will feed into the consultation process. However, I am afraid that Conservative Members will have to wait for the Budget report for more details, as the Carter committee was set up by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have no news of any imminent report.
      The hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Prisk) said that the regulatory impact assessment was incomplete and uncosted. He suggested too that the cost of following the regulations provided for in the Bill was not included in the assessment. The implication was that those costs would be the wine bill that would follow the bill for the main courses.
      I can tell the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge that the RIA will be updated and placed before the House with all secondary legislation fully costed. However, the RIA that is in both Libraries of the House contains the best estimates of the costs of meeting both primary and secondary legislation. It is therefore wrong to say that the existing RIA does not cover the costs of meeting requirements imposed by secondary legislation. I am aware that Opposition Members have tried to add to the costs imposed by the Bill, and a later amendment that would extend statutory paternity pay to the self-employed would carry with it a considerable cost.
      I do not believe that we have to make a choice between helping business and helping the work force. I believe that we can do both. The evaluations that we conduct will look at costs but also at benefits for employers and public funds. They will take account of the time that it takes for the impacts to be felt. I hope that I have reassured the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge that these amendments are unnecessary. An assessment of the kind proposed in new clause 1 would be too narrow, too soon, and conducted too often. The proposal in new clause 3 could well mean more bureaucracy and red tape for employers, and the proposal in new clause 4 would duplicate work already in hand.
      I ask the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge to withdraw the amendments. Failing that, I hope that the House will reject them.
      Mr. Hammond: To continue the culinary metaphor, I sense that the House is anxious to move on to other items on the menu, so I shall attempt to be brief. I am sure that the Minister will be relieved to hear that we will get rid of the big tent a little later on, and that we will resort to our customary small tents pitched on opposite sides of the parliamentary divide.
      I am disappointed by the Minister's tone. I did not expect him to accept the new clause, but I hoped that he would make a more significant gesture in respect of the need for ongoing monitoring of the costs and benefits—and I emphasise the latter—arising from the Bill, and their distribution. In the absence of a provision in the Bill requiring that such assessments be made, we shall have to rely on what might be called unmandated assessments by the Department. It will be for Opposition Members to keep the Government on their toes by making sure that the matter remains in focus after the Bill has come into force. We will then be in a better position to evaluate its real impact.
      I want to thank my hon. Friends the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field), for Tatton (Mr. Osborne), for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Prisk) and

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      for Boston and Skegness (Mr. Simmonds) for their valuable contributions to the debate. Many small businesses are worried about the Bill's implications for them, and the extent of the burdens that it will impose. It is important that we explore such matters with the Government properly and thoroughly. Finally, while we remain inside the big tent in this debate, I should like to thank the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Brian Cotter) for his support.
      The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) a couple of times mentioned the proposal in new clause 1 for an assessment of average costs on business. I accept that there is no meaningful concept of an average cost of doing something: different businesses will have different costs. The proposal was an attempt to establish a crude and dirty form of reimbursement that at least would recognise the costs being imposed on business.
      I am disappointed that, in the 21st century, Government Members and the Minister are still capable of believing that the Government should legislate to impose benefits on business. If something benefits business, all the Government have to do is to help and encourage it through education so that smaller businesses in particular can be aware of the evidence in support of the assertion that a practice will be beneficial. I can think of no case where there is credible evidence that the Government, using the blunt instrument of legislation, have been best positioned to impose on businesses the benefits that they believe will flow from these measures.
      I readily and willingly recognise that, in many cases, there will be benefits from many of the courses of action resulting from the Bill. One of the pities of the Bill is that, in many cases, we are talking about things that good employers are doing and are willing to do, and about areas where the arrangements and relationships between employees and employers are appropriate. The Government are seeking to impose a one-size-fits-all solution by imposing, by statute, a requirement that their practices be followed in every workplace.
      I am disappointed by the tone of what the Minister said, but I shall look forward to seeing the evaluations to which he referred. It will be our duty to keep a close watch on those evaluations and to probe their results as they become available. I am sorry to upset the Government Whips, who may have sent out a pager message, but in view of the fact that the debate is tightly timetabled and that there is exciting business further on, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
      Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

    New Clause 2

      ASSESSMENT OF EFFECTS OF WIDENING DEFINITION OF 'EMPLOYEE'
      '.—The powers granted to the Secretary of State in this Act to provide by Regulations that persons who do not fall within the definition of "employee" are to be treated as employees for the purposes of the Act and persons who fall within the definition of employee are not to be treated as employees for the purposes of the Act shall not be exercised until such time as

      (1) the Secretary of State has prepared and published an assessment of the need for and expected effects of any proposed exercise of such powers; and

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      (2) the Secretary of State has prepared and published an assessment of the expected costs and benefits of any proposed exercise of such powers and of the incidence of such costs and benefits.'—[Mr. Hammond.]

      Brought up, and read the First time.
      6.30 pm
      Mr. Hammond: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      The new clause deals with issues that will be familiar to those who served on the Standing Committee. In Committee shorthand, it was known as the "employee versus worker" question. In parts of the Bill, a curious architecture is employed, which is repeated in new clause 6(8)(c). It says that the Secretary of State may by order
      "make provision for this section to apply, with or without modifications, as if—

      (i) any individual of a description specified in the order who would not otherwise be an employee for the purposes of this section were an employee for those purposes, and

      (ii) a person of a description specified in the order were in the case of any such individual, the individual's employer for those purposes."

      We have a counter-intuitive provision in the Bill that allows the Secretary of State to define somebody as an employee and somebody else as his employer, even where they are not in that relationship.
      The reason for this provision is that our employment law is somewhat confused. In some places, it refers to employees and in others, it refers to workers—for example, in the minimum wage legislation and the working time directive. EU directives typically refer to workers, rather than employees, but the rules governing transposition of directives into national legislation seem to allow that definition to be narrowed when directives are transposed into domestic law. That seems to be the Government's legal advice. The TUC appears to have different legal advice, which goes to show that one can get as many opinions as one can afford barristers to give them.
      There is a dispute in relation to the fixed-term work provision of the Bill. The TUC disputes the Government's interpretation, which is that the EU directive applies only to employees. I understand that the TUC is threatening legal action to clarify the situation in the future.
      Who are these workers who are not employees? The Minister can correct me if I am wrong, but probably Members of Parliament, as office holders, are workers—at least some of them are—who are not employees. A more important category of workers who are not employees are agency workers working for a company but not employed by it.
      It is important that I set out the Opposition's position. We believe that for the UK to maintain and enhance its competitiveness, it is essential that we maintain flexibility in our work force. We recognise the increasing need in the modern workplace for flexible working. I will argue against anything that reduces flexibility in the labour force.
      Some, if not all, elements within the trade union movement appear to regard any form of non-conventional work as "Mickey Mouse" jobs. It is important that we change that attitude through education. We must make it clear that there is a role for flexible and unconventional

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      work in our economy to maintain and enhance our productivity and efficiency and to defend Britain's role in the world.
      Judy Mallaber: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that most parts of the trade union movement have been keen on allowing flexibility to assist people to have better working arrangements? However, the main aim is to ensure that that flexibility is operated within an environment in which there is still protection for people's rights. We do not want a system in which, for example, an employer can say at the beginning of the day that a worker has to work an extra three hours that night. The question is how we marry decent employment rights to the flexibility that can be of benefit to people in running their lives and to their employers.
      Mr. Hammond: It is interesting that the hon. Lady approaches the issue of flexibility purely in terms of flexible working hours. Flexible working arrangements and non-conventional working patterns go wider than that, encompassing fixed-term working and, in some cases, the outsourcing of work, in which someone moves from being an employee to being a self-employed contractor. That has happened in the Post Office in relation to Parcelforce delivery van drivers. The Minister may tell us something about that, as he is an expert on that subject.
      There are a range of flexible approaches to work. My perception—I hope I am wrong—is that parts of the trade union movement are still relatively hostile to some of those non-conventional work patterns; for example, to the use of agency workers in business to provide flexibility at the margin to respond to demand.
      That must change, but the Opposition are not in the business of defending abuse. If an elaborate ruse has been developed to pretend that somebody is not an employee, that is an abuse and it is right to deal with it. We heard some scary stories in Committee about fixed-term workers who were on their 40th fixed-term, six-month contract, having been in the same place of employment for 20 years. That is not what we are about. We do not want to deny employees proper protection by allowing artificial classifications of their work to continue.
      The Secretary of State has instituted a review of the wider issue of the definition of "employee" and "worker" across the board of employment legislation. The Minister said repeatedly in Committee that the Secretary of State would not use the powers she had under the Bill to define a person as an employee and another person as his employer if they were not employee and employer, unless and until the review is completed. The new clause goes further, in that it looks for a proper assessment of the need for and the expected effects of any proposed exercise of these powers.
      The new clause looks for the review to produce more than just a decision to do something; it looks for a proper and full appraisal of the arguments for doing something—in other words, the way in which the proposed change is expected to deal with the mischief that is expressed. It would require a full assessment of the expected costs and benefits and their incidence.
      The Government come under pressure from the trade unions. I do not suggest that that is improper—they also come under pressure from some Labour Back Benchers. In Committee, some Labour Back Benchers put pressure
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      on them rapidly to resolve the employee-worker issue. We are concerned that those powers are unnecessary because, if the Secretary of State waits until the review is completed and a comprehensive approach to that legal problem is formulated, consulted on and properly debated in the House, a broader Bill will be needed to deal with not only the issues raised by the Bill, but existing employment legislation.
      We are forced to ask ourselves why such provisions have been included in the Bill. Our concern is that the Minister is perhaps offering a sop to the trade union agenda and the pressure that he is coming under. After all, the Labour party received £9 million from the trade unions at the last election, and it is not surprising if the Government are asked for something in exchange. The Minister is wincing. Was the figure not £9 million? If the figure was slightly different, he will no doubt correct me. Compared to the Formula 1 and Hinduja scandals, £9 million is a tremendously large sum and we might expect some pressure to be put on the Government.
      Can we be sure that the review is not a cosmetic exercise? Can we be sure that the Government have not already decided to bow to that bit of the trade union agenda and cave in on the employee-worker issue? Under new clause 2, we seek to place at the end of the current review process a rigorous and proper assessment of the need for and the effects of the proposed exercise and its costs and benefits. The purpose is simply to ensure that there is a proper, fully informed debate.
      Mr. Prisk: Does my hon. Friend agree that, under new clause 2, we not only seek to stimulate that debate, but in a sense adhere to the spirit of the National Audit Office's view that any new proposal should be properly assessed and involve a regulatory impact assessment?
      Mr. Hammond: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Although I have to tell him candidly and in confidence that I am not optimistic that the Minister will accept the new clause, I hope that, in response to it, he will take the opportunity on the Floor of the House to confirm that there will be no move to implement the powers under the Bill to change the definition of "worker" so that workers are covered by its scope until the review process is completed, the proper assessments have been carried out, a consultation exercise on the proposed legislative changes has been undertaken and general legislation is introduced to do at a stroke whatever needs to be done across all employment legislation.
      In other words, I seek an assurance from the Minister that the inclusion of such provisions in the Bill does not imply that, on the basis of a quick and dirty analysis immediately after the review is completed and as a sop to the trade union agenda, he will present the prospect of including workers in the Bill's scope ahead of a more comprehensive solution if the review deems that necessary. I hope that good practice will require him to do what he would be asked to do under new clause 2, and that he will confirm what I have asked him to confirm so that Conservative Members can be comfortable in the knowledge that the changes will be made on the basis of properly assessed need, cost and benefit.
      I hope that the changes will not be part of a wider political trade-off in the Labour party's smoke-filled tower, with Ministers desperately bidding to win trade

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      union leaders' support for their privatisation of public services, while simultaneously keeping up the flow of cash into Labour party coffers. We hope that the Government will not be tempted to offer sacrifices that perhaps impose more burdens on private sector businesses, while saving Ministers' bacon and the Labour party's funding.
      6.45 pm
      Frankly, those are our fears, and I hope that the Minister will be able to allay them by accepting new clause 2 or, if he is not in a generous enough mood to do that, perhaps by confirming that he will follow the procedures that I suggest and not use the powers under this Bill until a general Bill is introduced to do so—if, indeed, that is the conclusion of the review.
      Mr. Lloyd: I thought that the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) made a fascinating speech. I congratulate him on becoming skilled at presenting an almost acceptable face for the modern Conservative party. He tries his very best to make calm, seemingly rational contributions on various issues. Indeed, he spoke for the Opposition in that manner in Committee, with one or two exceptions. Nevertheless, we get down to the visceral Tory inside him when he talks about giving sops to the trade union agenda and caving in on the worker-employee issue. Let us be a little more grown up than that. The worker-employee question involves very real issues. The simple fact is that there is genuine legal debate about the implementation of the fixed-term directive and whether the British Government's interpretation of EU law and its incorporation into national legislation is acceptable. The matter may or may not end up in the courts, but it is a serious issue.
      Fixed-term contracts in higher education present us with an especially serious issue. Some 11 per cent. of employees in higher education are now on fixed-term contracts. Frankly, it ought to be astonishing that the hire-and-fire mentality is used to run our academic institutions. Let us be brutally honest: we are talking not about universities and higher education institutions dealing with the sudden excess demand that arises in the summer, when 27 more undergraduate courses in physics or philosophy may be required, but about universities cushioning themselves so that they can take on or get rid of staff at summary notice. Many of those people have been employed on fixed-term contracts for many years. Frankly, that is an abuse, and it would be a shame if the current system continued in perpetuity
      I understand the hon. Gentleman's argument—I am with him in that I, too, want to find a comprehensive solution to the worker-employee issue—but he may feel slightly slighted if I tell him that I do not believe that it is the Conservative party's ambition to sort out the issue in favour of those who are often in the most marginal employment circumstances and who will lose that sort of protection. I hold that view because at no time during their 18 years in government did the Conservatives go down that path. There is no evidence that they even wanted to recognise those issues. In fact, the opposite is the case, as they sought to cast into that employment never-never land
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      far too many of our fellow citizens—people who are just as entitled to dignity at work as those who are formally given the legal status of employee.
      The hon. Gentleman would have more credibility if he told us what the Conservative party would be prepared to do if it ever got back into government. What is the modern, Letwinised Conservative party prepared to do? We do not believe that it has any real credibility given the fact that Conservative Members' rhetoric runs in sharp contrast to many of the views that have been expressed. He did not talk about employers abusing their employees by imposing unacceptable employment conditions. He paid passing reference to the fact that that was not acceptable, but we need a little more than the condescending view, "We can recognise bad conditions when we see them." We need to consider how employment law can resolve such evils.
      Mr. Hammond: If the hon. Gentleman casts his mind back, he will remember that we had this exchange in Committee. I suggested that the Inland Revenue had generally been pretty adept at defining a person as an employee, despite all attempts by ne'er-do-wells to define them as something else. I suggested to him that that was a good model on which to base our discussion.
      Mr. Lloyd: I look forward to hearing the hon. Gentleman develop Conservative policy in this area. However, I remind him that an awful lot of the lags in legislation that this Government had to pick up in 1997 were a result of a deliberate and calculated policy. That sort of policy is always justified by the Opposition when the need for flexibility is discussed. He is right that flexibility is important. It is important to employers and it is right and proper that employment relations should be structured so as to allow industry to be maximally efficient. There is no argument about that, and certainly none that mainstream trade unionists would want to advance.
      There is also an argument that flexibility cuts the other way and is also about giving the employee access to acceptable working conditions and the opportunity to take advantage of them. We did not hear a lot in the previous debate or even in the hon. Gentleman's opening remarks about the need for flexibility for employees. In that context, I appeal to my hon. Friend the Minister to reflect hard on what is being said, because the new clause has all the marks of a wrecking amendment. It is superficially attractive—it asks us to delay, to wait and to look for a little more information—but the real intent is to cement the current position more permanently, so the day will never dawn when employers are forced to face up to their real responsibilities.
      Mr. Hammond: Whether that day will dawn will be in the Government's hands when they complete the review. The point of the new clause and of what I have said to the Minister is to seek his assurance that no piecemeal approach will be taken using the order-making power in the Bill and that he will wait until a comprehensive solution has been proposed, consulted on and implemented across the board as a definitive remedy. Does the hon. Gentleman support that approach?
      Mr. Lloyd: No, I do not, and I shall explain why. The issues are intellectually and practically separable.

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      A decision on what is right and proper in relation to the aspects of the Bill that are covered by the new clause can be made coherently on its own merits. My hon. Friend the Minister will have the legal capacity to make that decision if it is in the interests of the operation of industry, commerce, employers and employees. I urge him to do it at the right time, subject to proper consideration. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman is right to say that these matters require adequate consultation, but there will be no need to wait if we know what is the right thing to do.
      I agree with the hon. Gentleman more generally that we must resolve the overall problem of the definition of employee and worker. I repeat that if he is asking us simply to delay the resolution of that problem, he will find no support among Labour Members. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will be reasonably robust in his response and tell him that he is making a good try. However, the real Tory view is coming out in little soundbites designed for the Federation of Small Businesses and in Conservative central office press releases. That is the real voice that he wants the country to hear. Alas, the mask begins to slip away as we reach the end of debate. We look forward to more of that mask slipping to reveal the real Tory party.
      Brian Cotter: There was much talk about tents earlier. On this occasion, we are in need of a tent; indeed, we have our own very large tent that is expanding by the day. People are flocking into it because we have our own view on all these issues. When the Government have been correct, we have supported them. Otherwise, we have taken an alternative view.
      The Minister will recollect that, in Committee, I suggested that we should be able to incorporate the concept of worker into the Bill. To put us into line with the EU directive, it was not unreasonable for us to do so. I shall not rehearse our discussion in Committee of the various examples of people who are workers but are not covered by the fair social requirements of the Bill. I am worried that the Conservatives' new clause would not merely allow the Government's review of employment status to decide this issue, but put in its way blocks such as the requirement to prepare and publish reasons for the action and an assessment of additional costs in relation to it.
      This issue must be addressed to put us in line with other countries, and I expect the Government to do that sooner rather than later. I look forward to them addressing it as soon as possible.
      Ms Walley: Before my hon. Friend the Minister replies, I want to express my concerns about this issue. I did not have the dubious distinction of serving on the Committee that considered the Bill, so I was not party to the shorthand that has been used to describe employees and workers. Clause 45 is about fixed-term work and I hope that he will take full account of the views expressed.
      The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) referred to dinosaurs in the trade union movement and to scandals of various kinds. However, I remind him of the scandal of workers whose employers classify them as such not for reasons of flexibility but because they want to deny them basic employment rights. That cannot be right, especially when we come to interpret important European directives.
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      I flagged up this issue on Second Reading, and I have corresponded with the Minister on it since then. I am grateful to him for considering the points that I have made and I am fully aware that a review is under way. However, the regulations on part-time workers apply to the broader category of workers. The directive that gives effect to the part-time workers regulations and that which gives effect to the fixed-term work regulations contain an identical definition of worker. Therein lies the problem.
      Clearly, the Government will not accept the new clause, but it refers to the distinction in relation to considering future definitions. On logical grounds—and perhaps legal one—sit is unsatisfactory for the proposed fixed-term work regulations to have a restricted application. That will give rise to uncertainty and confusion for workers and employers. Part-time workers will have protection under the part-time workers regulations, but fixed-term workers will not have protection under the fixed-term work regulations. However, part-time fixed-term workers will have protection under the part-time workers regulations. That is an anomaly.
      The representations made by the TUC in respect of establishing consistency on how to define workers and employees should be addressed as quickly as possible. I would not like the House to accept a new clause that would further prevent the Government from considering the distinction between workers and employees. They need to resolve the matter quickly, especially in view of constituents such as mine who are not receiving their fair employment rights because of the failure to resolve the issue.
      Alan Johnson: I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) that it is a shame that the new Tory veneer of the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) has faded away and that the old Tory is revealed in the claim that these policies are dictated to us by the trade union movement. It is water off a duck's back.
      7 pm
      The hon. Gentleman alleges that contributions to the Labour party have influenced its policy. We would love to know who contributed to the Conservative party when it was in government between 1979 and 1997. That would be fascinating to hear, because it might enable us to draw the same conclusions and to make the same cheap points. The truth is, however, that we do not know because it is a secret. We do not know who contributed a penny of the considerable funds that went to the Conservative party up to 1997. Labour party funding is open, transparent and governed by law. We introduced the legislation that insists on all political parties being similarly frank about the money that they receive. Before we are criticised, we deserve to know who funded the Conservative party in their 18 years in government.
      Llew Smith: The Labour party was born from the trade union movement. Why should we apologise for that or refuse to recognise that we are influenced by it?
      Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend is right; we have nothing to apologise for. It is interesting to note that the trade union movement in many other countries donates

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      money to mainstream right-of-centre political parties. We have the curious anomaly in this country that no one would consider donating money to a party that, alone among the mainstream right-of-centre political parties, until recently opposed the provision of decent and civilised standards for people at work. Conservative Members should think about that extraordinary paradox.
      Mr. Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that, unlike company shareholders, who have no say in donating money to the Conservative party, individual trade union members have a right not only to opt out, but to vote on the union's affiliation to the Labour party and on donations?
      Alan Johnson: Another important point. Were we to have a transparent debate on who funded the political parties that have been in government over—to pluck a figure out of the air—the past 23 years, the Conservatives would regret the day they moved on to this territory. It was unworthy of the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge to suggest that the trade union movement donates funds on any basis other than the desire to have a properly funded party that is broadly sympathetic to free and independent trade unionism. If he doubts that, he should accompany me when I meet my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central to discuss what policies the trade union movement proposes.
      The hon. Gentleman is also mistaken in thinking that we need primary legislation because of the employment status review. We already have similar powers to extend a wide range of employment rights to non-employees by using the order-making power in section 23 of the Employment Relations Act 1999. That has been in effect since October 1999 without creating the problems that he foresees. We have to take additional order-making powers in the three main clauses because they do not relate to employment rights per se, so we cannot rely on section 23 to extend their coverage to non-employees.
      On the substance of the new clause, I am happy to reaffirm that we will review employment status in relation to statutory employment rights under section 23. The mechanics of the review have commenced. We hope to publish the consultation document in late spring, when we intend to set out a radical approach. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we do not intend to use powers contained in the clauses in advance of that comprehensive review.
      Mr. David Heath: The hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) mentioned the problem in the higher education sector. It is crucial that we sort that out effectively and I hope that it will be a priority. The current situation is untenable for lecturers and for the interests of academic work. It needs urgent attention.
      Alan Johnson: We will consider that and other aspects of the employee versus worker issue.
      The fixed-term work directive is incorporated in the Bill and covers pay and pensions. I can tell my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley) that we discussed that directive in Committee. Unlike the part-time workers directive, it is
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      not clear that the term "employee" causes a problem by leaving groups of workers outside the embrace of the fixed-term work directive. People have mentioned agricultural casual workers, but we established that they have a contract and are employees for the purposes of the Bill. It would not be possible to walk through a Post Office sorting office without tripping over a sociology student from Sheffield university who is employed as a casual worker by a contract of employment and is, therefore, covered by the fixed-term work directive. Incidentally, part-time people on fixed-term contracts are covered by virtue of the fact that the part-time workers directive covers workers and employees.
      The biggest problem that we discussed in Committee related to employment agency staff. The social partners who signed the fixed-term work directive specifically excluded agency staff because they decided to have a directive that was aimed purely at agency staff, one of the three groups of atypical workers. It would be ludicrous to extend the Bill to cover employment agency staff in advance of the review under section 23 and of the directive, which the Commission is now producing since the social partnership broke down. That is why the fixed-term work directive should not be extended to cover workers at this stage. We could consider the issue in the review.
      I am sure that the hon. Gentleman was not daft enough to think that I would accept his new clause, and I hope that I have reassured him on that fundamental point.
      Mr. Hammond: I suppose I should return the compliment given by the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd): he sometimes manages to look like the acceptable face of old Labour, and one has to peel away the veneer to see what is going on behind. For all the talk of big tents, some people will be relieved to know that the small tents are alive and well. They are close at hand should we ever need them, as I suspect some of us might in the forthcoming debate.
      There is a proper issue at stake. I have acknowledged that and the hon. Member for Manchester, Central is doing me an injustice in suggesting that I pay lip service to it. Apart from anything else, there is a ridiculous confusion. There is no point in having legislation that cannot be understood by a reasonably educated English-speaking person. Clearly the confusion between worker and employee has become intolerable and needs sorting out. We merely want to ensure that that is properly and objectively dealt with on the basis of the facts, of the benefits that are likely to flow from any changes and the costs of making the changes.
      We are trying to disentangle the real issue from what I characterise as political horse trading. The hon. Gentleman might deny that until he is blue in the face, but the Opposition and most of the 56 million people in this country do not believe that difficult discussions do not take place on items of the trade union movement's agenda, because it funded the Government to the tune of £9 million to fight the general election campaign that put them here. We want to ensure that this issue is not lost in political horse trading but dealt with properly and objectively on the basis of the facts. I ask the hon. Gentleman to accept that at face value; it is up to him whether he does so. I detected in some of his comments

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      a hint of the old attitude that any job that does not conform to a conventional work pattern is a Mickey Mouse job. We must try to get away from that.
      Mr. Lloyd: I shall read with interest not only the hon. Gentleman's speech but my own, and I think that if he reads my speech carefully he will detect no such attitude. Flexible working is in the interests of an efficient economy and, very often, it is in the interests of employees; but we must get the balance right.
      Mr. Hammond: The hon. Gentleman must understand that such work involves not only flexible working times and patterns for employees but what the Minister described as atypical forms of work. Typically, atypical workers will be difficult to unionise, and I understand that there will be an instinctive reluctance on the part of the trade unions to embrace atypical forms of work. That is a legitimate, self-interested approach, but I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that we must change our attitude in the interests of maintaining flexibility in the economy and trying to maintain our competitiveness against our European neighbours, many of whom are now beginning to embrace concepts of flexibility in the work force after years of our deriding them for not doing so. We must accept that atypical workers will form an important part of this country's total labour force.
      In this debate the Minister has, perhaps tactically, thrown up a little smoke in anticipation of the debate to come. I know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you would not want me to stray too far into the subject of trade union funding for the Labour party, but the Bill is about delivering part of the trade union agenda. I am not saying that that agenda is wholly wrong or that we should reject it, but we are entitled to question the relationship between the Government, acting as the Government of the day, the Labour party, recipient of substantial largesse from the trade union movement, and the trade union movement, which has an open and published agenda, some of which is being incorporated in the Bill. Indeed, some of it has been incorporated at a late stage in the Bill's passage. That is a legitimate public concern, and we would be failing in our duty as an Opposition if we were not probing the matter and asking questions.
      Judy Mallaber rose—
      Mr. Hammond: I give way for the last time.
      Judy Mallaber: Will the hon. Gentleman at least accept that the motivation of Labour Members on issues such as those that I pursue, including rights for part-time workers, the worker-employee issue that I raised in Committee, decent working conditions and the ability to combine family and work, arises from genuine individual concern and just happens to be the same as that of the trade unions? Will he please stop casting aspersions on our motivation, because it is not influenced by the question of whether there is money in the equation? I espouse those views regardless of money. Does he accept that Labour Members' motivation is honourable?
      Mr. Hammond: I suggest that the hon. Lady get herself a slightly thicker skin. We have a Government who got themselves elected in 2001 on £9 million of trade union money and a pledge to bring the trade unions to
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      heel and impose a solution to reform our public services. So far, all we have seen is repeated backtracking. Conservative Members are entitled to ask, "What is going on?" We are scrutinising a Bill that implements a significant number of items on the TUC's published agenda. There is nothing wrong with that published agenda, but we are entitled to ask questions.
      7.15 pm
      Andrew Mackinlay rose—
      Mr. Hammond: Although I said that I would not give way again, I am tempted to give way to the hon. Gentleman.
      Andrew Mackinlay: I think that there is a third angle. [HON. MEMBERS: "A third way?"] No, a third angle—there is a substantial difference. I have been listening to the debate, and I can no longer restrain myself from speaking. I am of the view that the trade unions are far too acquiescent, and they do not flex their muscles on the Labour party's national executive. They have not exercised their right to interfere with manifestos. This is a matter that will come out in memoirs, but it needs to be said. My criticism is that trade union officials sit on their hands at the national executive committee when the manifesto is being drawn up; they are too deferential to people from the Prime Minister downwards, and then they go to the TUC conference—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. Before the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) responds, I point out that we are dealing not with memoirs but with new clause 2, and I trust that he will bear that in mind when he responds to the intervention.
      Mr. Hammond: Of course I shall bear it in mind, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I hope that the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) will stay to regale the House with his thoughts in the next debate.
      The Minister accused me of being veneered. I always think of veneer as rather cheap, and I prefer to be thought of as solid. He suggested that my veneer was peeling away, but we are beginning to see some veneer peeling away on the Labour Back Benches. We have a Prime Minister who appears to be biting the trade union hand that feeds him, and who describes as "wreckers" people who oppose the Government's mandated agenda for reform of the public services, and we have Conservative Members who seek to advance the trade union agenda. It will be interesting for us and, I suspect, for the public, including my constituents who only narrowly avoided a strike by South West Trains today, to see how the Minister responds to some of those issues later this evening.
      I sense the House is ready to move on to the next debate. Conservative Members are somewhat reassured by what the Minister has said about the non-piecemeal implementation of the results of the review being undertaken by his Department. We look forward to a full and proper debate on the conclusions of that review before any secondary legislation is proposed. The Minister has previously indicated that there will be proper consultation

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      and an opportunity for parliamentary review. In the interests of economy of time, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
      Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

    New Clause 5

      PARTICIPATION IN OFFICIAL INDUSTRIAL ACTION
      '(1) The Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 (c. 52) is amended as follows.
      (2) In section 238A (participation in official industrial action)—

      (a) In subsection (2) the word "(a)" and the words ", and (b) subsection (3), (4) or (5) applies to the dismissal" are repealed; and

      (b) subsections (3) to (7) are repealed.'—[Mr. Lloyd.]

      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Mr. Lloyd: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 8—Dismissal and participation in industrial action—
      '(1) The Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 (c. 52) is amended as follows.
      (2) Subsection (2B) of section 238 (dismissals in connection with other industrial action) shall cease to have effect.
      (3) Section 238A (participation in official industrial action) shall cease to have effect.'.
      Mr. Lloyd: It is interesting that new clause 5 is grouped with new clause 8 in the name of Conservative Members. I think that, once again, we will see a sharp divide. There has been talk of big tents, but there are big marquees on the Conservative Benches and tents on the Labour Benches—we know which interest the Conservative party ultimately seeks to represent in these issues.
      The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) does not seem to understand that it is possible to have the concept of fairness in the workplace. We ought to strive towards that and try to ensure that our legal regime is fair for employees and employers because, in the end, that proper balance is in the interests of individual industries companies and society in general. The hon. Gentleman must accept that an attempt to erode the advances made by the Employment Relations Act 1999 would be not only counterproductive but grossly unfair. The Minister for Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney), who is in his place, was the architect of that pioneering and transforming legislation. Not only the House but the country owes him a debt, because that measure moved industrial relations a long away from the confrontational view of the world of work that characterised the 18 years of Conservative Government. The Conservative new clause coupled with mine—in fact, I hope it is not coupled with mine—would move the clock backwards.
      Among other things, the 1999 Act provided recognition that when a lawful industrial dispute occurred, it was not only unreasonable and unacceptable, but incompetent to allow an employer simply to dismiss the work force. That power to dismiss was used relatively rarely. I am sure that
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      we will hear a lot from Conservative Members about South West Trains and all manner of cases, but the notion that a large organisation like South West Trains would seek to dismiss its work force is ridiculous—a work force cannot be got rid of or replaced overnight from the queue at the benefits office. However, some individual employers used that lack of legal protection for employees on strike and got rid of them to resolve an industrial dispute. There is in such action nothing of the concept of fairness at work, nor of negotiation, nor of trying to find an acceptable balance. It is simple abuse of power by one party—the party privy to all the power.
      It is a matter of fact that the right to strike is recognised in international obligations, for example, the International Labour Organisation convention. The legitimate right to strike is accepted throughout the world. Nothing in that suggests that there is a desire to strike, or that there is always a happy conclusion to strikes—industrial disputes can be bitter and difficult to resolve. However, sometimes the only industrial weapon that employees have at their disposal is withdrawal of their labour. The 1999 Act acknowledged the right to strike and provided that an employer who tried to dismiss people during the first eight weeks of an industrial dispute would be deemed to have acted unfairly, so employees would have recourse through industrial tribunals. It is right and proper that there is protection that forbids employers to take arbitrary action during the initial phase of an industrial dispute.
      It is also a matter of fact that the overwhelming majority of industrial disputes last for nowhere near eight weeks. Eight weeks is an extraordinarily long time for people to withdraw their labour. I remind the Opposition that people who go on strike do not simply not go to work: they do not get paid, they have no money to support their families, and they get none of the things that take people to work in the first place. To strike is no small action.
      The eight-week cut-off undoubtedly reflects some sort of compromise. Those who argue that there is a trade union agenda would say that many trade unions wanted more than eight weeks, but the Government at the time took the view that since the provision was a new one, eight weeks was appropriate. However, since the passage of the 1999 Act, we have gained experience of the practical operation of the legislation.
      Let me tell the House about a company in the constituency of the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams), in which constituents of many of my colleagues representing that part of Wales work. Friction Dynamics was originally part of the Turner and Newell group; it made brake linings and had been in existence for many years. The current owners took over in 1996, and between that time and roughly this time last year, the relationship between management and those who worked for the company deteriorated. Many of the employees had worked there for many years—far longer than Mr. Craig Smith, the current employer, had been at the company.
      Contemplation of industrial action was triggered by changes that Mr. Smith wanted to make. Some of those changes affected the company's health and safety regime, others involved arbitrary and swingeing cuts of 15 per cent. in basic pay rates, and cuts in shift premiums. The management proposed those serious changes, and the members of the Transport and General Workers Union in the company balloted on and took industrial action: they

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      went on strike. After striking for one week, those people tried to go back to work, but Mr. Smith locked them out of the workplace—an arbitrary action.
      Hon. Members might say the strike and the lock-out were equally arbitrary, but let us not attempt to judge the merits of either. I am not here to discuss the merits of Mr. Smith's stewardship of the company, although there are serious questions about how he got there and how the company got into that position. However, during the period of the lock-out, there was no meaningful attempt on his part to negotiate with the trade unions or his employees, only his insistence that he would make the proposed changes. I mentioned that Mr. Smith tried to change the health and safety regime. During the dispute, someone still working in the company lost some fingers; that was because health and safety protection was poor after the employer reduced it.
      At the end of the eight-week period, Mr. Smith decided summarily to sack all the members of his work force who had been on strike for one week and had been locked out for a further seven. If Conservative Members rise to justify Friction Dynamics' actions in that case, we will know exactly what the Tory party is about, but I trust that they will speak to the issue. Hard cases define whether law is good or bad. The case I describe does not represent a romantic retreat into old-fashioned trade union defence. This is 2002, and I am talking about a real work force comprising real people whose rights in the workplace were arbitrarily snuffed out by their employer.
      Mrs. Betty Williams: At the start of my intervention, I declare that I am a full paid-up member of the TGWU. I thank my hon. Friend for mentioning Friction Dynamics, from which 87 workers were deplorably dismissed during the events he describes. Many are constituents of mine, and they have assured me that they give new clause 5 their wholehearted support. I am sure that my hon. Friends are aware that they brought their case here to Westminster; they lobbied us hard, seeking support for their cause. The 1999 Act gave protection to my constituents for eight weeks—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady appears to be starting a speech. She has made a long enough intervention. I call Mr. Lloyd to continue his speech.
      Mr. Lloyd rose—
      Andrew Mackinlay: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If it is to be the habit that everyone declares what they are, I should make it clear that I belong to the TGWU, I am closely associated with the Graphical, Paper and Media Union, and I formerly worked with the National and Local Government Officers Association, now part of Unison. In fact, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if you cut me in half, you will find that I am like a stick of rock, with trade unions running all the way through me.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: if hon. Members interests are on the Register of Members' Interests, it is important that they declare them; otherwise, it is entirely a matter for individual Members to decide.
      Mr. Lloyd: In a way, that is the point, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge had a little fun suggesting that there was
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      something terribly unpleasant about the relationship between trade unions and other members of society, specifically Members of Parliament. The trade union agenda for the work force at Friction Dynamics was extremely clear. It was explicit. It was felt that the work force had been dealt with atrociously by the management and that they were legitimately seeking recourse to Parliament to persuade Members that an injustice had been done. Parliament was asked to resolve an injustice. There was no Luddite trade unionism; instead, the proper and acceptable use of the parliamentary system was employed.
      7.30 pm
      Dr. Vincent Cable: I am not aware of the case of Friction Dynamics, but it seems to be an appalling one. Is it not the case that if the employer had refused to negotiate, to seek conciliation and to engage in arbitration, the dismissals that he pushed through would have been unfair, and the unions would have been able to have the employees reinstated through the tribunal process?
      Mr. Lloyd: They would not have been able to have the employees reinstated because the tribunal would not have that capacity. It is a romantic view to bring back reinstatement. There are many examples of employees who have gone to tribunals following dismissal. The idea of going back to the same workplace would be ridiculous. I do not say that unkindly, but there would not be that possibility.
      The hon. Gentleman has touched on a point that I intended to make—
      Llew Smith: I, too, am a member of the Transport and General Workers Union. I do not apologise because I am quite proud of that fact.
      The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) seemed to imply that there is virtually no difference between a strike and a lock-out in the context of Friction Dynamics. I was staggered. The Friction Dynamics' work force are defending their conditions and health and safety standards. Is it surprising that they would want to do so? Surely going on strike in those circumstances is different from a lock-out, where conditions are removed from the work force.
      Mr. Lloyd: That is right.
      Almost certainly the employer's ambition from the beginning was to engineer an industrial dispute. It is up to the employer now to demonstrate that that was not the case and that he did not sack the members of his work force with a view to eroding the terms and working conditions of those at Friction Dynamics.
      As a trade unionist, I would not be prepared to defend that form of industrial relations. I am the chairman of a company limited by guarantee. It does not make profits and I receive no personal remuneration. However, I must take serious responsibility as an employer, and the company's employers are the people. Come the day when I could be accused of abusing other people's employment rights in the way that is alleged of Friction Dynamics, I would be ashamed even as a Conservative Member, let alone a Labour Member.
      Norman Lamb: I am a member of the Law Society and a consultant to a law firm. I associate myself with the hon. Gentleman's remarks while declaring those interests.

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      The case to which the hon. Gentleman has referred highlights what I would regard as a loophole in the provision that provides for an eight-week protected period. I agree that it is ludicrous that locking out the work force for seven weeks after an initial one week on strike enables the employer to take advantage of the provision.
      Does the hon. Gentleman accept that his new clause goes much further than addressing that loophole? It removes entirely the concept of an eight-week protected period for people on strike.
      Mr. Lloyd: It certainly goes further than addressing the loophole to which the hon. Gentleman refers.
      What is the right that Conservative Members will be seeking to erode even within the eight-week period? It is not only the right to maintain employment, although the employer will not be stopped from sacking people; we are talking about the right to go before an industrial tribunal for assessment. I accept that that is much better than nothing, and that in some instances there can be exemplary payments. However, I think that the maximum award that a tribunal can make is £50,000. Someone who loses his job, especially in an area of relatively high unemployment, can lose much more than £50,000, through loss of income and loss of pension entitlement for example. The House should reflect on that. This is not a trivial point.
      The right to go to a tribunal is not the equivalent of the right to stay in work to ensure that the process of arbitration is carried forward under ACAS or whatever.
      Mr. Hammond: I am not familiar with the Friction Dynamics case, but I understand that the hon. Gentleman is making an impassioned plea on behalf of the work force. Will he tell the House something about the economic fundamentals of the business? Is it a hugely profitable business with an avaricious owner who is seeking to make yet larger profits, or is it, as I suspect, a marginal business that is placed under threat of its very existence by competition from abroad? What are the circumstances?
      Mr. Lloyd: I am not in a position to reveal the company's balance sheet. It has not been shown to me. I can tell the House that Mr. Craig Smith was engaged in a lawsuit in the United States before he bought the company. It is alleged that moneys that he used to fund the purchase of the company were in fact compensation payments to the victims of contact with asbestos. Mr. Smith might want to tell a different story, but not all of Mr. Smith's actions are those of a reputable employer.
      If the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge is saying that a company in financial and commercial difficulties may arbitrarily erode working conditions, refuse properly to negotiate and then sack its work force, he has a different view of the rights and responsibilities of employers. That is not merely my belief, but the view of the overwhelming majority in this country.
      Mr. Hammond: Of course I am not saying that. I am saying that the hon. Gentleman must tell us the whole story. What happened before the strike began? If Friction
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      Dynamics is a business that is up against the wall, facing foreign competition and its very existence is under threat, what concessions were the work force willing to make? We need to know all the circumstances. If the hon. Gentleman is to hang his entire argument on a specific case, he needs to ensure that Members are fully informed of the circumstances of that case.
      Mr. Lloyd: The information given to the House is fairly comprehensive. The actions of an employer who engineers a dispute by imposing swingeing cuts in pay rates and eroding the fabric of the health and safety regime are not those of a high-quality employer who is determined to build a modern Britain.
      We are talking of an employer who follows a week's industrial dispute by a lock-out—he is not at the forefront of modern management techniques. He is an employer who then sacks his work force.
      There is a little more information, that may be merely colour or emotion on my sad part. The company is the subject of an improvement order that was issued by the Health and Safety Executive because its health and safety standards are not up to scratch. That is the sort of employer about which we are talking. Conservative Members may be delighted to defend such companies, and that is fine. At least we know clearly where the tents begin and end. However, I do not want to be in a tent that defends such companies. I want to be in a world that says that the summary dismissal of employees in industrial disputes is not the way, even after eight weeks, to resolve industrial disputes. We should be moving forward by using mechanisms of arbitration.
      Mr. Weir: I understand that the work force of Friction Dynamics agreed to a pay freeze for four years. It was not a rapacious work force but one who was willing to help out the company. Yet they have been treated as the hon. Gentleman has described.
      Mr. Lloyd: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman as I had forgotten that; it provides me with a reasonable answer for the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, who may now begin to accept that the company is no employment angel.
      Mr. Hammond: I am not going to comment on an individual case about which I do not have the facts. I suspect that the hon. Gentleman has gone a long way down the line of reciting allegations about an individual; I certainly do not want to follow that route. For the benefit of Members who may not be fully aware of the history, will the hon. Gentleman confirm that the item that he is putting on the agenda in his new clause has not sprung from the Friction Dynamics case? It is a long-standing item on the TUC agenda to remove the eight-week limit.
      Mr. Lloyd: With great respect, that is a silly point. We are talking about Friction Dynamics, which is a real company; 87 people are involved. That may not matter to the Opposition Members, who may simply wish to discuss the new clause as a theoretical exercise. However, the world of work is not a theoretical exercise; it is real and matters enormously to the 87 people who have been sacked, their families and their communities.
      The House must make up its mind whether it simply regards the actions of a company like Friction Dynamics as unacceptable or whether it wishes to use its legislative

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      capacity to begin to move the agenda on. It should not seek to tip the balance towards the mythical trade union agenda imagined by Opposition Members, but should recognise that, at the moment, relations are one-sided; an employer who can dismiss employees has too much opportunity to exercise arbitrary power. We do not want a shift so that trade unions can determine working conditions; we are simply asking for equity and justice. It is desirable for employers to get back to the arbitration process.
      Mr. Greg Knight: Will the hon. Gentleman reflect again on the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond)? Having moved a new clause, it is incumbent on him to tell the House its scope because we are legislating. I do not know the circumstances of the case so I shall not comment. A bad employer may well be involved, but it is still incumbent on the hon. Gentleman to explain to the House the full scope of the new clause that he is asking us to accept.
      Mr. Lloyd: I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman was here for the early part of the debate.
      Mr. Knight: I was here for all the hon. Gentleman's speech.
      Mr. Lloyd: Had the right hon. Gentleman listened, he would have realised the full scope of the new clause, which aims to remove the present eight-week time limit on protection against unfair dismissal. That would apply to Friction Dynamics, Ciba-Geigy and any company or organisation in the land. All legal protection is bound to be based on real-life events. This is not a game or a theoretical or intellectual exercise; it is not something that we are debating in the learned debating societies of our best universities. It is about real people and real employers; it is about companies and employees. In this case, the employer, instead of choosing to work in harmony with his work force—the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) made the point that the workers had already made significant sacrifices to try to maintain the company's viability—was prepared to abuse the power and rights that, sadly, the law gives him.
      Mr. Hammond: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he has been generous in accepting interventions. Can he not conceive of any circumstance during an industrial dispute, however long it has gone on, in which it would be appropriate for an employer to dismiss the work force for breach of contract? For example, people may simply refuse to do the job that they have been employed to do. Can the hon. Gentleman not conceive of such a situation arising? Under his new clause, it would never be possible fairly to dismiss a striker.
      Mr. Lloyd: Holding out for the bad employer is not a rational way of going about dispute resolution. Bearing in mind that taking industrial action involves a real cost to employees, only a tiny number of industrial actions last anything like eight weeks. I invite the hon. Gentleman to look at the statistics; he will find that it is all there in evidence.
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      Conservative Members believe that they can score a political propaganda point in this kind of debate. However, if they seek to make cheap politics out of the situation, they should remember that they do so at the expense of people's livelihoods and families. The present law is defective, and does not give protection to employees; it gives too much opportunity for the arbitrary exercise of power by employers, which is why the new clause attempts to move things on.
      7.45 pm
      Llew Smith: When we debated earlier amendments, we were accused of merely responding to the demands of the trade union movement. Does my hon. Friend not think it ironic that the Opposition spokesperson appears to be responding to demands of rogue employers, of which Friction Dynamics is one?
      Mr. Lloyd: I agree, and I invite the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge to make his position clear. I have outlined the case; the hon. Gentleman has tried to hide behind the protection of saying, "Well, of course I do not know the details." I have given him the details; if he wants to challenge them, he should do so. But comments on the case should relate to real people. As I said, this is not an empty exercise; it is real and is happening now.
      I have spoken for longer than I intended. I know that Opposition Members are champing at the bit because they want to reinvent their version of the class war. I shall therefore conclude my speech and make way for others.
      Hywel Williams: Hon. Members may find it instructive and useful if I give some objective information about the dispute at Friction Dynamics, which is in my Caernarfon constituency. Conservative Members may not wish to hear the facts, but I shall give them none the less.
      The dispute has dragged on for 43 weeks, and resulted in the workers being sacked after eight weeks. It is still awaiting resolution, which may not come until next May—more than a year since the dispute started—at an industrial tribunal. The current owner, Mr. Smith, took over in 1997.
      Mr. Hammond: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Do the sub judice rules that we normally follow in the House not apply to employment tribunal cases?
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am not aware that the comments of the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams) affect anything that is sub judice.
      Hywel Williams: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
      The current owner took over in 1997 and tried to impose a four-day week without overtime, attendance at meetings without pay, removal of bargaining agreements and a no-strike agreement. The employees had agreed to a four-year pay freeze, as the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) said. They tried to negotiate, but came to the reasonable conclusion that their employer was not interested in agreement. They have a proven commitment to the company and its predecessors; many of them have worked there for 20 or 30 years—all their working lives, in fact. Some trained there as young apprentices.

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      The workers would not act without thinking or without just cause, particularly given their present circumstances. They would have been aware of the consequences of being out for 43 weeks, and perhaps over a year. The union held a ballot strictly in accordance with the law, and the workers initially went on strike for a week. I accompanied them on their first day back and witnessed the employer himself locking them out; that is the nature of the relationship that he has fostered. The dispute continued. As I said, the workers were sacked after eight weeks and are still out after 43 weeks; they maintain a 24-hour picket and have acted with dignity and moderation. They, and the union, have always been willing to negotiate.
      The community in Caernarfon is solidly behind the strikers, including, Conservative Members may be interested to learn, the local business community, which has made a substantial donation to the strike fund. It realises the damage that the dispute is doing to local businesses, not least to Friction Dynamics itself. It realises the damage that is being done to investment in business in north-west Wales. It wants to see the dispute resolved, but resolved with justice.
      The employer has been enabled to sack the workers. He has been encouraged in his intransigence and unreasonable attitude by the power that the eight-week rule has afforded him. Some hon. Members might say that if protection from the sack is justified for eight weeks, it is justified thereafter. I would agree, but I would also point to the practical and catastrophic effects that have resulted from the entrenchment of the employer's power to be unreasonable.
      It cannot be right or reasonable that a strike is dragged out for 43 weeks, and eventually for more than a year. Workers at Friction Dynamics and in the community of Caernarfon cannot understand why that is allowed to happen. They do not want a tribunal. They want their jobs back in circumstances of justice and fairness. They see justice denied and justice delayed. For that reason, I am glad to support new clause 5.
      Dr. Cable: I shall deal with new clauses 5 and 8 together, as I believe that that is a more helpful way to deal with the issue. The two new clauses pull the existing balance in different directions, and in many respects in extreme directions.
      The eight-week rule was a carefully crafted compromise. One new clause seeks to eliminate it entirely, and the other seeks to make it indefinite. Both seem fundamentally unreasonable. A useful starting point—here, I believe, the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) was on the right track—is to put the debate in context. We are living through a period in which industrial action is at a very low level. In the last year for which recorded figures are available, 500,000 days were lost, as against an average of 660,000 over the past decade and about 7.5 million for the 1980s, with comparable figures for the 1970s. During the present period of economic boom, one would expect more industrial action.
      Mr. Hammond: Does the hon. Gentleman agree, though, that we are having this debate against a backdrop of what appears to be a change in trend, with a rising tide of trade union militancy facing the country?
      Dr. Cable: Indeed, there are specific points that relate to the public services, which I had intended to deal with and which present specific problems. Had new clause 8 been directed to that issue, I would have had more sympathy with it. In fact, the hon. Gentleman's new clause is broadly couched and would withdraw the eight-week rule from all employees in all disputes. I will address the current wave of unrest in a moment.
      I agree with the hon. Member for Manchester, Central that we are in a period of relatively subdued industrial action. It hardly calls for a major upheaval in the legislation, or one that tilts the balance radically in one direction or the other.
      Mr. Simmonds: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that new clause 5 would increase industrial discord and strike action above its present level?
      Dr. Cable: I doubt that new clause 5 would do that, but I do not support it. I doubt that the new clause would make a great deal of difference. Essentially, we are debating a point of principle, rather than its consequences.
      The underlying point made by the hon. Member for Manchester, Central is that the right to strike is a fundamental right and should not be qualified in the way that it currently is. I do believe that workers have a right to withdraw their labour. There should be a right to strike, but it is not an unqualified right. There are conditions: strike action must be reasonable and must take account of third parties. We will come to that when we deal with the issue of the railways, as I am sure that we will.
      Mr. Lloyd: It is one thing for the hon. Gentleman to interpret what I said, but it is another for him to make up things that I did not say. Of course the right to strike is conditioned. I pointed out that the dispute that I described had gone through the full legal provisions, a ballot and so on. It was a legal strike. A strike is quite a constrained activity in our society. Employees cannot simply walk out or withdraw their labour at a moment's notice. Those days hardly existed, and do not exist now.
      The hon. Gentleman spoke of the new clauses tilting the balance. Does he seriously believe that the change that would be introduced by new clause 5 would have any dramatic effect, taking into account the fact that the overwhelming majority of strikes—not just 99 per cent., but 99.999 per cent.—last for far less than the eight-week period that the provision covers?
      Dr. Cable: As I said a few moments ago, I doubt that the new clause would have any dramatic effects one way or the other. The hon. Gentleman raised it as an issue of principle, and I believe that on the issue of principle, he is wrong. If we confined the discussion to the effects on the firm described—the hon. Gentleman told a horrific story, and a rather moving one—I am sure that the facts that he gave are right and I have total sympathy with the work force involved, but the attempt to create legislation around one case seems fundamentally unsatisfactory.

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      As my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) said in an intervention, if there is genuinely an anomaly about a lock-out being included as part of a strike, that is a ludicrous situation and the legislation should be amended to deal with it, probably in another place.
      The hon. Member for Manchester, Central is in danger of creating a situation in which, say, an entirely different trade union, in a different environment, might embark on a prolonged period of industrial action—which, as the hon. Gentleman said, is difficult and might be costly to the work force—without any regard for its consequences for the industry. The union might refuse to embark on arbitration or conciliation, in which case the employer might well have a genuine feeling of grievance, but there would be no opportunity for the employer to bring the dispute to an end.
      Although the hon. Gentleman was correct to say that the right to go to a tribunal is not equivalent to holding on to one's job, the fact remains that after the eight-week period, workers do have protection through the tribunal system. Statute 238A, which is the cornerstone of the Bill, provides a considerable degree of protection. I do not know what happened in the case described, when the 87 workers took the employer to a tribunal, but it provided them with a considerable level of protection, although perhaps not perfect protection. New clause 5 is an excessive response to what was clearly an unjust situation and an unjust action by that employer
      New clause 8 goes wholly in the other direction. By allowing a dismissal to take place for a strike without any period of protection whatever, it would effectively withdraw the principle of the right to strike. It would be likely to make many employers use dismissal as a first rather than a last resort.
      Mr. Hammond: My understanding is that until the Employment Relations Act 1999 came into force, that was the situation. The eight-week rule did not apply, and I do not remember it being a burning issue in this place or outside.
      Dr. Cable: I remember that there were emotive debates around the 1999 Act, when it was felt that some degree of balance should be restored. I believe that it was, and I would defend the current position.
      I would have some sympathy with the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge if his new clause were more narrowly drawn. There is a real issue now in the public services, which is quite different from the Friction Dynamics case. In the case of the public services, the victims of the dispute are the general public. We need legislation to deal with that. In some parts of the public services, there are already restrictions on the right to strike. The most obvious and extreme case is the police force, but others are constrained in different ways.
      There is an argument for restriction within the public services, and I define public services widely to include the railways, because of the subsidy element. That restriction might well be linked to a willingness to arbitrate. There would be a case for saying that the eight-week protection could be withdrawn in certain circumstances in essential services if the parties to the dispute had refused to arbitrate. The arbitration element in that does not tip the balance towards the employer. If arbitration is
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      compulsory the employer is bound to take the result. The outcome is taken out of management's hands. There is a concession in both directions. If new clause 8 were more narrowly drawn, I would have more sympathy with it. If the Government come under growing pressure from industrial action, perhaps they will amend the Bill in another place. However, the new clause would apply across the national economy, including manufacturing industry, which accounts for only 10 per cent. of industrial action. That is excessive and inappropriate and I cannot therefore support it in its current form.
      8 pm
      Rob Marris: I shall be brief because we have much to discuss. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) asked whether there should ever be dismissals during a strike. Most, if not all hon. Members would agree that anyone who committed gross acts of violence against the person or criminal damage could be dismissed. However, many of my colleagues and I believe that no one should be dismissed simply for going on strike. Existing law allows that to happen after eight weeks.
      The hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) appears to be under the illusion that those who are fired after eight weeks can simply go to an employment tribunal. They can try, but they will not succeed under current legislation. After the eight weeks have run out and the employer has fired the employee, the latter will not succeed in an employment tribunal because the dismissal does not count as unfair under existing law.
      I suspect that most hon. Members hoped that the eight-week rule would shorten industrial disputes. However, it can have the opposite effect. The employer can simply sit out the eight weeks. That tends to lead to longer disputes. If employers know that they cannot simply wait for eight weeks, but might have to wait indefinitely, it would be a greater incentive for them to bargain in good faith. Clearly, Craig Smith has not done that.
      Mr. Osborne: Those who served with the hon. Gentleman in Committee remember that he tends to talk about amendments, but not vote for them. Will he assure us that he will press new clause 5, to which he is a signatory, to the vote?
      Rob Marris: I shall give no such assurance until I have extended my hon. Friend the Minister the courtesy of listening to the Government's response. It would be foolish to do otherwise.
      Norman Lamb: If the Minister does not accept the proposals in the new clause, will the hon. Gentleman and other Labour Members press it to a vote? He asserts that the protection ends when the eight weeks have elapsed. Does not he accept that section 238A (5) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 provides continued protection when the employer has not gone through proper procedures to resolve the dispute? Protection therefore does not exist simply for eight weeks. Will he comment on that?
      Rob Marris: I shall gladly comment on both points. I did not mention proposals; I said that I would listen to

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      the Minister's response. Section 238A (5) simply provides people such as Craig Smith with a fig leaf. It allows them to display a veneer—a noun that was used earlier—of negotiating and going through the motions with no intention of settling a dispute. They then fire people after eight weeks. The eight-week rule tends to prolong disputes, and I do not believe that that is hon. Members' intention. Most of us want shorter disputes that are resolved justly and fairly. Clearly, that has not happened for the 87 workers from Friction Dynamics and their community.
      Does the Minister believe that the eight-week rule accords with the United Kingdom's duties under the International Labour Organisation conventions that we have signed? If it complies with their wording, does it accord with their spirit?
      Mr. George Osborne: As hon. Members would expect, I oppose new clause 5 and support new clause 8. I enjoyed serving in Committee with the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd), who often makes a good deal of sense. However, I was not familiar with the case to which he drew our attention, and I am not convinced that it shows the need for a change in the law that would affect all companies throughout the country.
      The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) will speak on anything anywhere, but I hope that other signatories to the new clause will speak in the debate. It is interesting to learn Labour Back-Bench Members' true feelings and moods. Students of new Labour will realise that the Minister is in the ideal new Labour position of being between new clause 8, tabled by Conservative Members, and new clause 5, tabled by old Labour Members. The right hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Mandelson) probably dreams of being in such a position when he is not dreaming about the Cabinet. As the Prime Minister would put it, the Minister is between Conservative wreckers and old Labour wreckers.
      Rob Marris: That puts the Minister in the position of fluid dynamics rather than Friction Dynamics.
      Mr. Osborne: The hon. Gentleman has redeemed himself by making a good point. When the Minister rejects the new clauses and says that the principle of fairness, not favours means that the Government have to be somewhere in the middle, he will adopt the ideal third-way position, although Ministers no longer use the term, which has been dropped from the lexicon. Anyone who examines the Government's record will realise that they have handed over a stream of new powers to trade unions, including statutory recognition, protection for strikers, which new clause 5 would extend, and easing rules on strike ballots. Trade union recognition agreements have increased from a little over 100 a year under the Conservative Government to 450 last year. A huge expansion in trade union power therefore took place even before the Bill was introduced.
      The Bill grants further powers to trade unions. We have discussed the explosion in the number of union learning representatives and the example of union pressure paying off when the Government dropped the modest charging regime that they planned to introduce for employment tribunals. That miraculously happened a few days before
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      the Prime Minister was due to speak to the Trades Union Congress. The fixed-term European directive has been gold-plated and Conservative Members are left wondering why all that has happened. We therefore delve into the Labour party's accounts and its constitution. People who listened to our proceedings today would have been struck by the fact that almost every Labour Member who spoke voluntarily declared trade union involvement.
      The Labour party's accounts show that trade unions gave them £9.5 million in the election year. Anyone who has been involved in politics knows the indirect help that trade unions provide through advertising, manpower and so on. One does not have to be a cynic to perceive a connection between the enormous extension of trade union power under this Government and the great provision of trade union money and manpower to the Labour party.
      Mr. Weir: I have no connection with a trade union, but I am prepared to support the new clause. The hon. Gentleman's speech is interesting, but new clause 8 would remove any protection from workers who are on strike. They could be sacked the day after a strike began.
      Mr. Osborne: New clause 8 would simply mean reverting to the position under the Conservative Government. Most people who consider that Government's history will probably regard their greatest achievement as curbing trade union power.
      Norman Lamb: New clause 8 proposes that:
      "Subsection (2B) of section 238"—
      of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992—
      "… shall cease to have effect."
      That seems to go back beyond the position that existed through the last years of the Conservative Government, and to provide less protection than there was pre-1999. Will the hon. Gentleman explain whether that is the case?
      Mr. Hammond: Will my hon. Friend give way?
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I hate to say this to the hon. Gentleman, but he cannot intervene on an intervention.
      Mr. Osborne: I shall be happy to take my hon. Friend's intervention.
      Mr. Hammond: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I hesitate to say this, because I know that the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) is an employment lawyer, but if my memory serves me correctly, the Employment Relations Act 1999 inserted subsection (2B) into the 1992 Act to which he referred.
      Mr. Osborne: My hon. Friend anticipated what I was about to say. Perhaps I should quit while I am ahead by saying that the result of the Government's actions has not been fairness, not favours, but favours, not fairness. There has been a string of new trade union powers, and we all know the reason for that. As I said earlier, the Minister is

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      in an ideal position to do the new Labour trick of saying that he is neither one thing nor the other and that he is in the middle, but we should not be deceived.
      Norman Lamb: I shall deal first with the new clause tabled by the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd), who spoke of his concerns about a very real case. That highlights a potential loophole, and I invite the Minister to comment on the possibility of considering a narrower amendment to the Bill to close that loophole. It seems extraordinary that workers can go on strike for one week, which is followed by a seven week lock-out, and then be fairly dismissed because of the original one-week strike. That is unacceptable, and there is certainly unanimity among the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Back Benchers tabling that new clause. I invite the Minister to respond specifically to that point.
      The new clause goes far beyond addressing that particular mischief, however; and to destroy the delicate balance created in the Employment Relations Act 1999 would be a retrograde step. Subject to this loophole being closed, it makes sense to have a protected period in which the right to strike exists, and to have a period after that date in which that right continues to exist if the employer does not go through the proper procedures. Throwing all that out would be throwing the baby out with the bath water and going way beyond addressing the mischief to which the hon. Member for Manchester, Central referred.
      I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) in relation to urging the Government to consider the position of public services and to examine the possibility of introducing arbitration as an alternative to the right to strike which exists outside the core public services.
      New clause 8 seems to go back in the wrong direction and to be extreme on the other side. The delicate balance that was created by the 1999 Act appears to have worked reasonably successfully, notwithstanding unusual cases such as that of Friction Dynamics. It has not lead to an enormous growth of strikes. Strikes have increased of late, but there is no suggestion that that is because of the reasonable and limited protection that the 1999 Act provided in terms of the protected period. There is not a case for going back to the pre-1999 period; there is simply a case for addressing the mischief that has been highlighted by the hon. Member for Manchester, Central.
      8.15pm
      Mr. Hammond: This has been an interesting debate. The hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) is to be congratulated on having introduced his theme oozing reasonableness under the smokescreen of a specific case, the details of which I confess I do not have. Other hon. Members have also alluded to that case. My hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) and the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) have made the point that we cannot base such far-reaching legislative proposals on a single case. The hon. Member for Manchester, Central will just have to accept that we will never be able to deal with every situation in society that might give rise to a potential injustice.
      We must consider the background to the two new clauses. Legislation has followed legislation—including the Employment Relations Act 1999—since the Government came to power in 1997. Further employment
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      legislation is in the pipeline that will tilt the playing field still further in favour of the trade unions. The result of all this is an upsurge in trade union activity. My hon. Friend the Member for Tatton quoted figures for the dramatic increase in recognition agreements. Mr. John Monks is on record as saying that the trade unions were back in business. Who would expect them to be anywhere else, when they have just paid the party that now forms the Government £9 million to fight their last general election campaign?
      Mr. Kevan Jones: In regard to trade union recognition, do not individual workers and members have to vote for that recognition? It is not the trade union bosses or the trade unions getting the recognition; it is individual workers demanding representation at work by trade unions.
      Mr. Hammond: All that we are talking about here is a change in the mood—a change in the tilt of the playing field—and a perception that there is now an agenda to concede some of the points that the trade unions have been arguing for a number of years. My perception is that industrial relations during the 1990s—let us not go back to the 1980s—had stabilised at a generally constructive level. Since 1997, we have had a Government who have been determined to tilt the situation in favour of the trade unions, making life more difficult for employers at a time when they are facing significant economic difficulties themselves.
      Part of the backdrop to these issues is that the trade unions are acting not as economic guardians of their members but as political pressure groups, apparently determined to wreck the Government's agenda of public sector reform—an agenda on which the Government were elected in 2001. There is a resurgence of militancy in the public sector unions threatening chaos across the public transport system. Many of our constituents in the south-east have to face that chaos, with the strikes by South West Trains. Other train companies face a similar situation in constituencies further north.
      Against that backdrop of a rise in union militancy and an increase in disputes that have less to do with employee-employer tensions than with internecine warfare and power struggles between different would-be trade union barons, the hon. Member for Manchester, Central wants to send a signal that we wish to move further away from the status quo that was working well during the last Parliament, and to move back to a situation that would be more akin to the 1970s if the hon. Gentleman's new clause were taken to its logical conclusion.
      Mark Tami: Did not the Conservative Government privatise the train system? We now have a vast number of companies, which encouraged the end of national bargaining and got rid of a lot of train drivers. The market is taking hold. Does not the hon. Gentleman support the market?
      Mr. Hammond: To be honest, I am not sure of the import of that intervention. The rail disputes are being presented as an old-fashioned disagreement about differentials between train drivers, who are in extremely

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      short supply and have to be paid good wages, and other workers, who are in less short supply. Inevitably, differentials are opening up.
      Mr. George Osborne: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Prime Minister unreservedly condemns the strikes? Interestingly, Labour Back Benchers do not.
      Mr. Hammond: I suspect that there is a large gulf between the Prime Minister and some of his Back Benchers, some of whom may even support the wreckers, who the Prime Minister condemns regularly and vociferously.
      Rob Marris: My hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) merely made the point that when the hon. Gentleman referred to the public sector he should have referred to public services. The railways are a public service, but they are not in the public sector. They were privatised by the Conservative Government.
      I shall explain to the hon. Gentleman what happened with a number of train operating companies, because he clearly does not understand. After being privatised, they laid off loads of train drivers, causing them to be in short supply, and there was leap-frogging between the privatised companies, which needed to hire drivers. Train drivers are in short supply because the companies caused them to be in short supply.
      Mr. Hammond: The disputes are not about train drivers. We all understand that drivers are extremely scarce, which is why they are cutting good deals with their employers. That is the marketplace working, and I have no problem at all with train drivers achieving good settlements. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ah!"] I have no problem at all with people who have valuable but scarce skills cutting good deals with their employers—that is bound to happen.
      The events in the railway industry are being presented as an old-fashioned differential dispute with people in a different labour market demanding that some magical differential between them and the more highly paid train drivers be maintained in the face of the market evidence.
      Mr. Lloyd rose—
      David Taylor rose—
      Mr. Hammond: Before I give way, let me point out that it is not too cynical to observe that the real issue behind the rail strikes plaguing this country has nothing to do with the pay and conditions of guards, but everything to do with the ambitions of different would-be union barons to control the RMT and its extended and improbable election process.
      Mr. Lloyd: I hope the hon. Gentleman will concede that his remarks are totally irrelevant to new clause 5. I can only assume that, as his new clause would remove any recourse to unfair dismissal procedures following industrial action, he wants employers to use the method of the sack to resolve industrial disputes.
      Mr. Hammond: To get to the point, new clause 5 would make it always unfair to dismiss a person who
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      breached his contract by striking. New clause 8 would return us to the pre-1999 Act position, which I submit worked very well. The hon. Gentleman said that dismissing a work force is unlikely to be a practical solution in an industrial dispute. Employers are not in the business of dismissing their work force, as their companies and livelihoods depend on them.
      To put it bluntly, we are talking about sending signals, and the hon. Gentleman wants to send a further signal that the playing field is tilting in favour of the trade union agenda. We are moving steadily and further down that line. His Government imposed a solution only two years ago, but the matter is to be reopened and pushed further in the direction of the TUC's long-standing agenda. New clause 8 would send the signal that, in the face of increasing militancy, increasing disruption of public services and increasing chaos for our constituents, we shall not return to the industrial relations chaos over which the Labour Government of the 1970s presided. We turn our back on that. New clause 8 sends the signal that we would return to the status quo of the late 1990s, which was workable and coherent.
      Mrs. Betty Williams: Will the hon. Gentleman at least concede that the catalogue of events highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) shows the true picture and what happens on the ground with ridiculous employment practices that take us back to the 19th century? Will the hon. Gentleman please agree with us on that point? We have an opportunity to put things right.
      Mr. Hammond: It would be wrong to comment on the individual case, because I do not know the facts, and I certainly do not know the broader facts surrounding it. I hear what the hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Manchester, Central have to say. On the facts presented by the hon. Gentleman, I agree that we have not heard about a model employer and his conduct towards his employees, but I tell the hon. Lady that if we in this place set ourselves the task of framing legislation that makes every injustice and every bad practice impossible, we shall fail.
      The hon. Gentleman's solution—making it always unfair to dismiss a person who breaches his contract by going on strike and refusing to work for his employer as he is contracted to do—is totally disproportionate. He has not adduced a single example of the benefits of his new clause, other than in respect of the case from north Wales. He is sending a signal that must be examined in the context of where we are at this point: the Government, who are relatively newly elected, have a mandate to bring the public sector trade unions to heel and to deliver reform of public services that they have publicly rejected. That was always going to be a tough task for a Government who got themselves elected by taking £9 million of union money.
      We face increasing chaos in our public transport system and the threat of a Post Office strike that will bring what remains of our postal services to their knees. I suspect that Consignia will never be able to recover, thus precipitating the collapse of postal services and the post office network which the hon. Gentleman predicted from the other side of the barricade in 1994.
      That is the background and that is the situation: the Government are introducing Bill after Bill and moving in the direction of the trade union agenda. We are all aware

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      that there is more in the pipeline—legislation from Brussels and from the Government's own agenda. In response to that, the hon. Gentleman wants to send the signal that the Government are not going far enough and not going fast enough: "We'd like more, please."
      The hon. Gentleman cited one case in defence of his argument that we should make it always unfair to dismiss someone who is on strike, breaching his contract with his employer. There are two points of principle here. Yes, a person has a right to go on strike, but, equally, an employer must have a right to dismiss a person who has broken his contract and has decided to go on strike rather than working as he is contracted to do. Of course employers will not usually resort to that, because it would be absurd and would not be in their interests to do so, and of course employees and trade unions will not usually resort to strike action in pursuance of disputes and discussions with employers. We are talking about extreme cases.
      8.30 pm
      The new clause has been presented as framing a point of principle. Let me tell the hon. Gentleman, who asked me about the eight-week rule, that I could not defend that as a point of principle. When a point of principle is involved, it should be argued either that it is always unfair to dismiss a striker—that is the hon. Gentleman's argument—or that once a contract of employment has been broken, it is fair to dismiss the person who has broken the contract. No argument can be made in principle for the eight-week rule.
      Norman Lamb: I agree that the extreme view that it is never lawful to dismiss people on strike, however long the strike and whatever the circumstances, is unacceptable and that a balance needs to be struck between the competing rights of the parties. But is it not also wrong to go to the extreme that the hon. Gentleman seems to be proposing? Is he really saying that it is reasonable for a group of workers who go on strike lawfully for one day to be sacked with no recourse against their employer through tribunals?
      Mr. Hammond: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will leap up to correct me, but as far as I know, until the 1999 Act came into force we were not plagued by outrageous dismissals of work forces who had been on strike for one day. That simply did not happen, for all sorts of practical reasons.
      I suspect that neither new clause 5 nor new clause 8 would make a huge practical difference to disputes on the ground. Our aim is to send a signal about climate, mood, balance, and the direction in which the Government are travelling. I am astonished that, in the 21st century, such issues still appear to be at the forefront of some people's agenda. I should have thought that most trade unions—let me qualify that and say "most trade unions in the private sector", which brings me to the point made by the hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable)—had long since adopted a much more constructive approach to achieving what was best for them. It staggers me that, in the 21st century, it should still be thought that conferring the ability to strike indefinitely without being dismissed fairly is the way to pursue the interests of workers—employees and trade unionists. I wonder whether the hon. Member for Manchester, Central and his co-signatories fall within the Prime Minister's definition of "wreckers".
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      Whether or not new clause 5 is pressed to a Division, I hope that the House will divide on new clause 8.
      Alan Johnson: The new clauses concern the protections against dismissal for those taking the protective industrial action introduced in the Employment Relations Act 1999. New clause 5 seeks to extend the protections, while new clause 8 seeks to remove them. The Government consider both unacceptable.
      New clause 5 aims to amend the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 to ensure that it is automatically unfair to dismiss an employee for taking part in protective industrial action at any time, whether during or after that action. The Employment Relations Act 1999 significantly strengthened the protections against dismissal for those taking lawfully organised official industrial action. It made it automatically unfair for an employer to sack employees for taking part in industrial action, either within the first eight weeks of the beginning of the action or after that, if it ended within the eight weeks. Most industrial action is short-lived; the rules therefore protect employees in the overwhelming majority of cases involving industrial action.
      The 1999 Act also makes it unlawful to sack employees for taking industrial action after it has continued for more than eight weeks where the employer has not taken reasonable steps to resolve the disputes. "Reasonable steps" include the following of disputes procedures and the involvement of third-party conciliation or mediation. That is an important part of the Act.
      It is important to recognise that the Act did not amend some dreadful piece of employment law legislation introduced under the Thatcher regime. For students of these matters, it is the 101st anniversary of Taff Vale, another Welsh dispute. Since then, it has always been the case that workers could be sacked from day one of an industrial dispute. In 1999, we provided protection for the first time for eight weeks, and beyond that if no attempt had been made to resolve the disputes.
      The Government believe that those changes represented a major advance in protecting individuals who exercised their fundamental freedom to withdraw their labour. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) says that these things did not occur before. Conservative Members are so wrong about this it almost hurts. One reason why they were swept out of power in 1997 and lost again by a landslide last year is that they refuse to understand the difficulties of people at work and continue to be hostile to free, independent trade unionism. I find it reassuring to know that that gap is still there. [Interruption.] "Absolute rubbish", say Conservative Members from a sedentary position. Yet the Leader of the Opposition has suggested that the solution to the RMT dispute—and no one was more disappointed than Conservative Members when the dispute this week was called off—was to sack the workers from day one. The Leader of the Opposition said on television and is quoted as saying in print that one of the dreadful things that the Government have done was to introduce protection for eight weeks. That must mean that the solution to these industrial problems, according to the right hon. Gentleman—the human resources manager from hell—would be to sack the work force from day one.
      The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge says that this was not the case before the 1999 Act was introduced. It was—these things happened all the time.

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      I can think of several high-profile disputes in which such things happened. Indeed, I was involved in a low-profile dispute at Critchley Labels in south Wales. It had a work force of 36, 99 per cent. of whom were unionised. Job numbers had to be reduced, to which the union agreed. Management decided that the four people to lose their job were the branch chairman, the branch secretary, the treasurer and the committee member of the local union. The work force took balloted industrial action to protect those four people who were disgracefully earmarked for dismissal. The management then derecognised the union. The work force had a 100 per cent. yes vote for industrial action and were all promptly dismissed on day one of that industrial action.
      Conservative Members need to carry forward Letwinisation and understand that what we did in 1999 helped to resolve such disputes. Union recognition did not have to be fought on the picket lines and in the trenches. People who wanted their union to be recognised and were prepared to take official, legal, balloted industrial action for that to happen were no longer forced to go through a recognition procedure that involved a dispute. Instead, they had a sensible procedure to follow.
      Conservative Members seem to find it disgraceful and disappointing that unions are picking up members again. I suppose that it is ironic. Who would have thought, 10 or 15 years ago, that at the beginning of the 21st century the trade union movement would be in a better position than the Conservative party? I understand Conservatives' disappointment in that respect. It should not be a matter for disappointment that people can follow a properly regulated procedure under which they vote to have their unions recognised and avoid the kind of dispute that we had at Critchley Labels.
      Mr. Hammond: Before the Minister gets too excited about the increase in trade union membership, will he confirm that union penetration in the private sector is 19 per cent. and in the public sector, 63 per cent.?
      Alan Johnson: I try not to get excited about these issues. I am merely pointing out that the trade union movement in this country has increased its membership. There have been more recognition deals, including at Honda. Conservative Members seem to view that as the collapse of civilisation as we know it.
      As for how such disputes begin, the Employment Relations Act sorted out the problem with union recognition. It also solved the problem caused by the fact that, having held their ballot and got a mandate, union members had to take industrial action within 28 days or the mandate would be lost and they would have to reballot.
      That was sensible, and I hope that it may be the solution to the dispute currently predicted at Consignia. These days, if both sides are in constructive discussions they can agree to decide that there is no need for the union to be put in the ridiculous position of having to take industrial action—albeit token action—to keep its mandate. The mandate can be extended by another 28 days so that there is a chance of resolving the dispute through arbitration. That is another of the sensible solutions introduced in the 1999 Act that has helped to resolve disputes.
      Mr. George Osborne: I seem to remember that when the Minister was a union leader, he found it more useful
      154
      to employ Lowe Bell than to take his members out on strike—but that is another matter. [Interruption.] Apparently he did both. So that I know where he stands in the spectrum of Labour party opinion on the dispute at South West Trains, will he tell me whether he joins the Prime Minister in unreservedly condemning the strike? Yes or no?
      Alan Johnson: I am not interested in that sort of silly question. I am dealing with what I thought was an important debate on how employment relations are to go forward in this country. I was shunted into a siding for a second, but let me come back to new clause 5, moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd).
      The changes to the 1992 Act that came into effect on 24 April 2000—they have now been in place for about 22 months—were an important step forward. I am making that point—and I know that my hon. Friends agree with me—because some of the criticism that we have received implies that we did something terrible to undermine trade union rights and the rights of workers in dispute when we introduced those measures in the 1999 Act.
      There is no evidence that employers are increasingly trying to sack strikers; they have not taken the advice of the Leader of the Opposition yet. In fact, sackings and threats of sackings are rare. However, I have listened to the debate and I recognise that the new clause has direct relevance to the dispute at Friction Dynamics in Caernarfon. That case has caused much distress to the workers concerned and to their local communities in north Wales. I am probably one of only three people in the Chamber who have met the striking workers at Friction Dynamics, and I have received many representations on their behalf. I know and understand their plight.
      Some of the sacked workers have made applications to an employment tribunal claiming unfair dismissal. The first of those cases will probably be heard soon. The Friction Dynamics example is the first known to Government in which sacked strikers have invoked the new law and taken an employer to a tribunal. Obviously the outcome will be instructive, but we will not know the result for some time.
      One of the questions asked by the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) was whether the lock-out that has turned into an eight-week strike was allowable under the 1999 Act. In our view it probably is not—but I understand that that is exactly what the employment tribunal is considering.
      Norman Lamb: Will the Minister give way?
      Alan Johnson: In a little while.
      I believe it would not be right to amend the legislation on the basis of one case, in advance of a considered approach to any changes after full consultation with all interested parties. The Government believe that it would be wrong to use the Bill to change the law in that area on the basis of one unresolved dispute. It would be much better to address the issue in the round in the forthcoming review of the Employment Relations Act.
      Does the hon. Member for North Norfolk want to intervene now?
      Norman Lamb: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way to me now, but I think that he has already answered my

      155
      question. I wanted to ask him whether he would seriously examine the outcome of the tribunal case and consider a possible narrow amendment, if necessary, to address the mischief that appears to have arisen in this case.
      Alan Johnson: The House will know that we are committed to reviewing the whole of the Employment Relations Act 1999 including the provision discussed in new clause 5.
      8.45 pm
      Mr. Lloyd: It is very important that my hon. Friend the Minister tell the House how the proposal will work in practice. I do not expect him to anticipate the results of the review, but he has made it clear that there is a commitment to making the eight-week rule workable and practical. Obviously, other matters—including the question concerning lock-out raised by the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb)—will have to be considered in the review of the 1999 Act.
      Alan Johnson: Yes, we are committed to reviewing the whole of that Act. The review will include an examination of the law on the dismissal of strikers. We are committed to introducing any resulting legislation within the lifetime of this Parliament.
      I understand the concerns felt by hon. Members on this issue. My hon. Friend the Member for Conwy (Mrs. Williams) has raised the matter with me several times, as has my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central. However, I think that it best to channel such concerns through the imminent review of the 1999 Act, not least because new clause 5, if it were agreed tonight, would do nothing to resolve the dispute at Friction Dynamics. No such provision could be applied retrospectively, as the members of the work force understood completely when I spoke to them a couple of months ago. I therefore ask my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central to withdraw the amendment.
      I turn now to new clause 8, which I believe would turn the clock back. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge was blatant about that. As with so many things, the new clause shows the inability of the Conservative Members to adapt to change. The world of industrial relations has moved on, and has apparently left them behind
      New clause 8 would repeal all the additional protections for those taking official, lawfully organised industrial action which were introduced in the Employment Relations Act 1999. It would take us back to the law that preceded it, under which there were only modest protections against dismissal for strikers.
      It is also important to recall that, under the previous law, tribunals could not hear complaints from workers dismissed during a strike if all of them were dismissed. They could hear complaints from strikers only if they were dismissed selectively, or were offered re-engagement selectively, within three months. Even then the strikers might not win their case. Such workers could not even take their case to an employment tribunal. That is the law that Conservative Members want to reintroduce
      The protections remain in place for those dismissed during action that is not lawfully organised, but we recognise that they were incongruous in relation to
      156
      lawfully organised, balloted industrial action. They gave completely free rein to employers to sack everyone taking industrial action. So if 100 people were taking action, it was completely lawful for the employer to sack them, as long as he dismissed all 100.
      We therefore changed the law with the 1999 Act to give important extra protections to everyone taking lawful industrial action—that is, official action that has been organised in full accordance with the law. Once unions have met the many demands of the law when organising action, we believe that their members should enjoy a measure of protection when they take such action.
      The new law has been in place for a little under two years. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge wishes to imply that there has been a significant upturn in industrial action as a result. That is simply not the case. In fact, it is absolute nonsense. There is no evidence that the number of stoppages has increased since our legal changes took effect. The number of stoppages in the year to November 2001 was just 190—the lowest since records began in 1869. That total was 20 fewer than in the preceding year—
      Mr. Hammond rose—
      Alan Johnson: I anticipate that the hon. Gentleman wants to ask what has happened since November, but I assure him that I shall get around to that in a second.
      The number of stoppages in the year to November 2001 was 20 fewer than in the preceding year, and 40 fewer than the average annual figure for the 1990s, up to 1997.
      Mr. Hammond: Like the members of his Whips' Office, the Minister has wrongly anticipated my intervention. I was going to ask him whether it had occurred to him that 2001 was a general election year. The trade unions financing the Labour party's campaign were hardly likely to pull the rug from under the party's feet by going in for a massive increase in industrial disputes in the run-up to the general election.
      Alan Johnson: I feel the need to take the hon. Gentleman, whom I very much like, out for a gin and tonic, and sit him down and go through all of this. [Interruption.] Well, perhaps I will stretch to a half of lager. I have not heard this stuff about a huge conspiracy for some time. He should have talked to my mob half way through the election, because they were coming out quite merrily. The idea that industrial action just disappears when we snap our fingers and hold a general election has me holding my sides.
      Mr. Hammond: Will the Minister give way?
      Alan Johnson: I can take a bit more entertainment, so yes.
      Mr. Hammond: Frankly, I find it astonishing that the Minister is suggesting that the trade union movement, which supports the Labour party financially and morally, would not attempt in the run-up to a general election to avoid any action or any questioning of Government policy, however violently it might disagree with it, until after the election was over. Is not that precisely what we

      157
      have seen: utter silence in the run-up to the general election and then an immediate exercise of the unions' veto over public policy once Labour is in office?
      Alan Johnson: I ought to point out to the hon. Gentleman that the majority of the unions affiliated to the TUC are not affiliated to the Labour party. In terms of the figures, he just cannot get away with it. In the last year to November, a year in which there was a general election, we had the lowest level of industrial action since records began. This year, even with the regrettable and high-profile disputes that we have seen—incidentally, they are high profile because there are no disputes anywhere else—we will have the second lowest level of industrial action since records began.
      The number of days lost to industrial action is minuscule by historical standards. In the twelve months to November 2001, an estimated 473,000 days were lost due to industrial action. This compares with 1.3 million days lost in 1996; not the 1980s.
      Mr. George Osborne: The Minister had something to do with that.
      Alan Johnson: I fully accept that, in another capacity, I had something to do with that. But Opposition Members are suggesting that the problems of industrial disputes and industrial action lie with the Government. In that case, what do they say about the 1.3 million days lost in 1996? In the 1980s, the annual average was 7.3 million days lost each year—a decade in which the Conservative party ruled entirely. I shall emphasise those figures: 7.3 million days lost on average each year in the 1980s compared with 473,000 under this Government. And we are told that we are having some kind of 1970s revival night.
      Mr. Prisk: I will allow the Minister to calm down gently. Does he expect that, over the next quarter, the number of strike days will rise or fall?
      Alan Johnson: With the measures taken since the Employment Relations Act 1999, we have everything in place to deal with disputes in the proper way, either through arbitration—
      Mr. Prisk: Will it go up or down?
      Alan Johnson: We certainly have a better way of dealing with disputes now, whether they are about union recognition or anything else, than we had prior to the measures that were introduced in 1999. If the new clause were accepted, it would do nothing to meet the problems that we have seen in industry over the last few months.
      There is no case for repealing this law. It has not created a new wave of industrial militancy. Instead, it underpins a basic freedom: the freedom: to take industrial action, which is part of a mature democracy. The law is balanced and provides real incentives for both parties to resolve their differences. Opposition Members obviously do not value such provisions. In place of negotiation, they presumably favour heavy-handed tactics, with employers sacking anyone who takes action.
      158
      New clause 8 is a desperate attempt by Opposition Members to resurrect "Back to the Future". As always, they attack not just trade unions, but their members. The new clause has no place in this Bill and we will have no reservations about opposing it if they have the temerity to push it to the vote.
      Mr. Lloyd: This has been a fascinating debate, partly because of the illusions and myths about the reality of industrial relations that have been mentioned. Although the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) makes a good point about the lock-out, I ask him to reflect seriously on the fact that all the protection that exists, even now, is that the sacked worker can go to a tribunal. An employer could show that the sacking was fair, even during the strike, if other factors were relevant. So the new clause is no strikers' charter. The most important point—this has totally escaped Conservative Members—is that we are talking not about a massive trade union agenda, but about a rare set of events. I suggest that they grow up a little, please. The Friction Dynamics dispute is the only one that I am aware of since the Employment Relations Act 1999, but it matters to the people in that company.
      It is obvious that Conservative Members wanted to adopt a different agenda. They wanted to talk up the concept of industrial strife, not because they have any interest in industrial justice or industrial peace, but because they want to talk about what they regard as tough Tory politics. My hon. Friend the Minister hit the nail firmly on the head many times in exposing them for what they are. The very idea suggested in new clause 8, under which day-one sackings are proposed as the solution to industrial disputes in this country, is ludicrous and childish. That is why it will not gain the sympathy of the House.
      I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister recognises the strength of feeling behind the Friction Dynamics dispute and the more general issue. The dispute has not merely popped up in recent days; it is now in its 44th week. People are enormously troubled that the legal balance is not right. My hon. Friend has made it clear that the review of the law will take account of the process. On that basis, it is genuinely in the interests of the House not to vote on new clause 5, but to vote against new clause 8, proposed by the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), and I very much look forward to voting in the opposite Lobby to the one in which he votes. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion
      Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

    New Clause 7

      REPEAL OF SECTION 109 OF THE EMPLOYMENT RIGHTS ACT 1996
      '.—Section 109 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 (c. 18) (Upper age limit) is hereby repealed.'.—[Hywel Williams.]

      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Hywel Williams: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      The purpose of new clause 7 is to remove the age limit on protection against unfair dismissal, so that an employee over the age of 65 would have the same protection as any other employee. Under section 94 of the Employment Rights Act 1996, an employee has a right not to be

      159
      dismissed unfairly. However, under section 109 of that Act, that protection does not apply to the dismissal of an employee who has attained the retirement age for an undertaking and the age was the same whether the employee was a man or a woman or, in any other case, the employee had attained the age of 65.
      Under new clause 7, that existing age limit on protection against unfair dismissal would be removed. That would ensure that an older person could claim unfair dismissal, just like any other employee. It would also bring that right into line with a great many other employment rights that are not subject to an upper age limit—for example, the right to paid leave and a minimum wage. That right would be consistent with the right to claim unfair dismissal for specified reasons that are automatically regarded as unfair, such as trade union membership.
      9 pm
      Mr. Hammond: The Opposition have a great deal of sympathy with the principles behind the hon. Gentleman's new clause. However, we do not feel that it is right to legislate on this matter in isolation. A much wider issue must be addressed. We look forward to a constructive discussion on how to protect the rights of older workers in the work force when the consultation in which the Government are engaged is discussed in this place.
      Question put and negatived.
      It being after Nine o'clock, MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour, pursuant to Order [27 November 2001]

    New Clause 8

      DISMISSAL AND PARTICIPATION IN INDUSTRIAL ACTION
      '(1) The Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 (c. 52) is amended as follows.
      (2) Subsection (2B) of section 238 (dismissals in connection with other industrial action) shall cease to have effect.
      (3) Section 238A (participation in official industrial action) shall cease to have effect.'.—[Mr. Hammond.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Motion made, and Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
      The House divided: Ayes 127, Noes 342.

      Division No. 166]

      [9.1 pm

      AYES

      Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

      Butterfill, John

      Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James

      Cameron, David

      Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

      Campbell, Gregory (E Lond'y)

      Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

      Cash, William

      Baldry, Tony

      Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

      Barker, Gregory

      Baron, John

      Chope, Christopher

      Beggs, Roy

      Clappison, James

      Bellingham, Henry

      Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

      Bercow, John

      Collins, Tim

      Beresford, Sir Paul

      Cormack, Sir Patrick

      Blunt, Crispin

      Cran, James

      Boswell, Tim

      Davies, Quentin (Grantham)

      Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

      Donaldson, Jeffrey M

      Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia

      Duncan, Alan (Rutland & Melton)

      Brazier, Julian

      Duncan, Peter (Galloway)

      Burns, Simon

      Duncan Smith, Rt Hon Iain

      Burnside, David

      Evans, Nigel

      160

      Fallon, Michael

      Osborne, George (Tatton)

      Forth, Rt Hon Eric

      Ottaway, Richard

      Fox, Dr Liam

      Page, Richard

      Francois, Mark

      Paice, James

      Gale, Roger

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Garnier, Edward

      Paterson, Owen

      Gray, James

      Portillo, Rt Hon Michael

      Grayling, Chris

      Prisk, Mark

      Green, Damian (Ashford)

      Redwood, Rt Hon John

      Greenway, John

      Robathan, Andrew

      Grieve, Dominic

      Robertson, Hugh (Faversham)

      Gummer, Rt Hon John

      Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

      Hague, Rt Hon William

      Roe, Mrs Marion

      Hammond, Philip

      Rosindell, Andrew

      Hawkins, Nick

      Sayeed, Jonathan

      Hayes, John

      Selous, Andrew

      Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David

      Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian

      Hendry, Charles

      Simmonds, Mark

      Hermon, Lady

      Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

      Hoban, Mark

      Spelman, Mrs Caroline

      Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas

      Spink, Bob

      Horam, John

      Spring, Richard

      Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

      Steen, Anthony

      Hunter, Andrew

      Swayne, Desmond

      Jack, Rt Hon Michael

      Swire, Hugo

      Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

      Syms, Robert

      Key, Robert

      Tapsell, Sir Peter

      Knight, Rt Hon Greg (E Yorkshire)

      Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)

      Laing, Mrs Eleanor

      Taylor, John (Solihull)

      Lait, Mrs Jacqui

      Tredinnick, David

      Leigh, Edward

      Trend, Michael

      Letwin, Oliver

      Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

      Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)

      Tyrie, Andrew

      Liddell-Grainger, Ian

      Viggers, Peter

      Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

      Walter, Robert

      Loughton, Tim

      Watkinson, Angela

      Luff, Peter

      Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann

      McIntosh, Miss Anne

      Wiggin, Bill

      MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew

      Wilkinson, John

      Maclean, Rt Hon David

      Wilshire, David

      Malins, Humfrey

      Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

      Mates, Michael

      Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)

      Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian

      Yeo, Tim

      Mercer, Patrick

      Young, Rt Hon Sir George

      Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

      Murrison, Dr Andrew

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Norman, Archie

      Mrs. Cheryl Gillan and

      O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

      Mr. Laurence Robertson.

      NOES

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Borrow, David

      Allan, Richard

      Bradley, Rt Hon Keith (Withington)

      Allen, Graham

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Anderson, Rt Hon Donald (Swansea E)

      Brake, Tom

      Brown, Rt Hon Nicholas (Newcastle E & Wallsend)

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)

      Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Atherton, Ms Candy

      Browne, Desmond

      Austin, John

      Burgon, Colin

      Bailey, Adrian

      Burnham, Andy

      Baird, Vera

      Cable, Dr Vincent

      Banks, Tony

      Cairns, David

      Barnes, Harry

      Carton, Mrs Patsy

      Barrett, John

      Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

      Battle, John

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Bayley, Hugh

      Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

      Beard, Nigel

      Caplin, Ivor

      Begg, Miss Anne

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Beith, Rt Hon A J

      Caton, Martin

      Benn, Hilary

      Cawsey, Ian

      Bennett, Andrew

      Challen, Colin

      Best, Harold

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      Betts, Clive

      Chaytor, David

      Blackman, Liz

      Chidgey, David

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Clapham, Michael

      Blizzard, Bob

      Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

      161

      Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      Havard, Dai

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Healey, John

      Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)

      Heath, David

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Henderson, Ivan(Harwich)

      Clelland, David

      Hepburn, Stephen

      Clwyd, Ann

      Heppell, John

      Coaker, Vernon

      Hesford, Stephen

      Colman, Tony

      Hewitt, Rt Hon Ms Patricia

      Connarty, Michael

      Heyes, David

      Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

      Hill, Keith

      Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)

      Hinchliffe, David

      Corbyn, Jeremy

      Hodge, Margaret

      Corston, Jean

      Holmes, Paul

      Cotter, Brian

      Hope, Phil

      Cousins, Jim

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Cranston, Ross

      Howarth, Rt Hon Alan (Newport E)

      Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Howells, Dr Kim

      Cummings, John

      Hoyle, Lindsay

      Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack (Copeland)

      Hughes, Beverley (Stretford)

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire

      Hurst, Alan

      Davey, Edward (Kingston)

      Hutton, Rt Hon John

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Iddon, Dr Brian

      David, Wayne

      Illsley, Eric

      Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

      Ingram, Rt Hon Adam

      Davis, Rt Hon Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead)

      Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

      Dawson, Hilton

      Jamieson, David

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Jenkins, Brian

      Denham, Rt Hon John

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)

      Dhanda, Parmjit

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Dismore, Andrew

      Jones, Kevan (N Durham)

      Dobbin, Jim

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      Dobson, Rt Hon Frank

      Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

      Donohoe, Brian H

      Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

      Doughty, Sue

      Joyce, Eric

      Dowd, Jim

      Keeble, Ms Sally

      Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

      Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)

      Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

      Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Kelly, Ruth

      Edwards, Huw

      Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Khabra, Piara S

      Ennis, Jeff

      Kidney, David

      Ewing, Annabelle

      Kilfoyle, Peter

      Farrelly, Paul

      King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

      Fisher, Mark

      Kirkwood, Archy

      Fitzpatrick, Jim

      Ladyman, Dr Stephen

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Lamb, Norman

      Flynn, Paul

      Lammy, David

      Follett, Barbara

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)

      Leslie, Christopher

      Galloway, George

      Levitt, Tom

      Gardiner, Barry

      Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

      George, Andrew (St Ives)

      Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen

      George, Rt Hon Bruce (Walsall S)

      Lloyd, Tony

      Gerrard, Neil

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Gibson, Dr Ian

      Love, Andrew

      Gilroy, Linda

      Lucas, Ian

      Godsiff, Roger

      Luke, Iain

      Goggins, Paul

      Lyons, John

      Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

      McCafferty, Chris

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      McCartney, Rt Hon Ian

      Grogan, John

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

      MacDonald, Calum

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      McDonnell, John

      Hancock, Mike

      MacDougall, John

      Hanson, David

      McIsaac, Shona

      162

      McKechin, Ann

      Salter, Martin

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Sanders, Adrian

      McNamara, Kevin

      Sarwar, Mohammad

      McNulty, Tony

      Savidge, Malcolm

      MacShane, Denis

      Sawford, Phil

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      Sedgemore, Brian

      McWalter, Tony

      Shaw, Jonathan

      McWilliam, John

      Sheerman, Barry

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Sheridan, Jim

      Mahon, Mrs Alice

      Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

      Mallaber, Judy

      Singh, Marsha

      Mann, John

      Skinner, Dennis

      Marris, Rob

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

      Marshall, David (Shettleston)

      Smith, Angela (Basildon)

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)

      Marshall-Andrews, Robert

      Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe)

      Martlew, Eric

      Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

      Meale, Alan

      Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

      Merron, Gillian

      Soley, Clive

      Michael, Rt Hon Alun

      Southworth, Helen

      Milburn, Rt Hon Alan

      Squire, Rachel

      Miliband, David

      Starkey, Dr Phyllis

      Moffatt, Laura

      Steinberg, Gerry

      Mole, Chris

      Stevenson, George

      Moonie, Dr Lewis

      Stewart, David (Inverness E)

      Moore, Michael

      Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

      Moran, Margaret

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      Morgan, Julie

      Stoate, Dr Howard

      Mudie, George

      Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin

      Mullin, Chris

      Stringer, Graham

      Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

      Stuart, Ms Gisela

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Stunell, Andrew

      Naysmith, Dr Doug

      Sutcliffe, Gerry

      Norris, Dan

      Tami, Mark

      O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

      O'Hara Edward

      Taylor, Rt Hon Ann (Dewsbury)

      Öpik, Lembit

      Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Owen Albert

      Taylor, Dr Richard (Wyre F)

      Palmer, Dr Nick

      Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

      Pearson, Ian

      Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)

      Picking, Anne

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Pickthall, Colin

      Thurso, John

      Pike, Peter

      Timms, Stephen

      Plaskitt, James

      Tonge, Dr Jenny

      Pond, Chris

      Truswell, Paul

      Pope, Greg

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Pound, Stephen

      Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Prescott, Rt Hon John

      Twigg, Derek (Halton)

      Price, Adam

      Twigg, Stephen (EnField)

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Tyler, Paul

      Pugh, Dr John

      Tynan, Bill

      Purchase, Ken

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Purnell, James

      Ward, Ms Claire

      Quin, Rt Hon Joyce

      Wareing, Robert N

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Watson, Tom

      Rammell, Bill

      Watts, David

      Rapson, Syd

      Webb, Steve

      Raynsford, Rt Hon Nick

      Weir, Michael

      Reed, Andy (Loughborough)

      White, Brian

      Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)

      Whitehead, Dr Alan

      Rendel, David

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Robertson, Angus (Moray)

      Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)

      Ross, Ernie

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Roy, Frank

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Ruane, Chris

      Winnick, David

      Ruddock, Joan

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      Wishart, Pete

      Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)

      Wood, Mike

      Ryan, Joan

      Woodward, Shaun

      Salmond, Alex

      Woolas, Phil

      163

      Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Wright, David (Telford)

      Mr. Nick Ainger and

      Wright Tony (Cannock)

      Younger-Ross, Richard

      Mr. Fraser Kemp.

      Question accordingly negatived.

    Clause 1

      PATERNITY LEAVE
      Amendments made: No. 37, in page 2, line 17, leave out—
      'a single period of leave of.
      No. 38, in page 2, line 17, leave out "weeks" and insert "weeks" leave".
      No. 39, in page 2, line 27, leave out paragraph (c) and insert—
      (c) make provision about how leave under this section may be taken.'.
      No. 40, in page 3, line 12, leave out—
      'a single period of leave of.
      No. 41, in page 3, line 12, leave out—"weeks" and insert "weeks" leave".
      No. 42, in page 3, line 26, leave out paragraph (d) and insert—
      '(d) make provision about how leave under this section may be taken.—[Mr. Sutcliffe.]

    Clause 2

      STATUTORY PATERNITY PAY
      Amendments made: No. 43, in page 7, line 5, after "pay" insert—
      'in respect of any period'.
      No. 44, in page 8, line 20, leave out from "choose" to "as" in line 22 and insert—
      to receive statutory paternity pay in respect of—

      (i) a period of a week, or

      (ii) two non-consecutive periods of a week,

      such week or weeks within the qualifying period'.
      No. 45, in page 8, line 24, leave out "is the" and insert—
      'shall be determined in accordance with regulations, which shall secure that it is a'.
      No. 46, in page 8, line 25, after "of' insert "at least"—[Mr. Sutcliffe.]

    Clause 24

      CONCILIATION
      Amendments made: No. 16, in page 33, line 38, at end insert "and".
      No. 17, in page 33, leave out lines 39 to 43.
      No. 18, in page 33, line 46, at end insert—
      '(4) In that section, the existing provision (as amended by subsection (3)) becomes subsection (1) and at the end there is inserted—
      "(2) If employment tribunal procedure regulations include provision postponing the fixing of a time and place for a hearing for the purpose of giving an opportunity for the proceedings to be settled by way of conciliation and withdrawn, they shall also include provision for the parties to proceedings to which the provision for
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      postponement applies to be notified that the services of a conciliation officer may no longer be available to them after the end of the postponement."'.—[Mr. Sutcliffe.]

    Clause 32

      CONSEQUENTIAL ADJUSTMENT OF TIME LIMITS
      Amendment made: No. 47, in page 37, line 10, after "3" insert—
      or [Tribunal jurisdictions to which section [Complaints about grievances] applies]'.—[Mr. Sutcliffe.]

    Clause 33
      NON-COMPLETION OF STATUTORY PROCEDURE: EXCLUSION OF CLAIMS
      Amendment made: No. 48, in page 37, line 20, leave out Clause 33.—[Mr. Sutcliffe.]
    Clause 34

      PROCEDURAL FAIRNESS IN UNFAIR DISMISSAL
      Amendments made: No. 19, in page 37, line 39, at end insert—
      '() one of the procedures set out in Part 1 of Schedule 2 to the Employment Act 2002 (dismissal and disciplinary procedures) applies in relation to the dismissal,'.
      No. 20, in page 37, line 40, leave out "relevant statutory".
      No. 21, in page 38, line 1, leave out "that" and insert "the".
      No. 22, in page 38, line 9, after "to" insert—
      'the application of a procedure set out in Part 1 of Schedule 2 to the Employment Act 2002,'.
      No. 23, in page 38, line 9, leave out "the relevant statutory" and insert "such a".
      No. 24, in page 38, line 10, leave out "its" and insert "the".
      No. 25, in page 38, line 10, at end insert "of such a procedure".
      No. 26, in page 38, line 11, leave out "the Employment" and insert "that".
      No. 27, in page 38, line 12, leave out "2002".
      No. 28, in page 38" leave out lines 13 to 19.—[Mr. Sutcliffe.]

    Clause 51

      ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
      Amendment made: No. 52, in page 58, line 5, leave out "33" and insert—
      '[Complaints about grievances]'.—[Mr. Sutcliffe.]

    New Schedule 1

      TRIBUNAL JURISDICTIONS TO WHICH SECTION [Complaints about grievances] APPLIES—
      Section 2 of the Equal Pay Act 1970 (c. 41) (equality clauses)
      Section 63 of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 (c. 65) (discrimination in the employment field)
      Section 54 of the Race Relations Act 1976 (c. 74) (discrimination in the employment field)
      Section 146 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 (c. 52) (detriment in relation to trade union membership and activities)
      Paragraph 156 of Schedule Al to that Act (detriment in relation to union recognition rights)
      Section 8 of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 (c. 50) (discrimination in the employment field)
      Section 23 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 (c. 18) (unauthorised deductions and payments)
      Section 48 of that Act (detriment in employment)
      Section 111 of that Act (unfair dismissal)
      Section 163 of that Act (redundancy payments)
      Section 24 of the National Minimum Wage Act 1998 (c. 39) (detriment in relation to national minimum wage)
      Schedule 3 to the Tax Credits Act 1999 (c. 10) (detriment in relation to tax credits)
      The Employment Tribunal Extension of Jurisdiction (England and Wales) Order 1994 (S.I. 1994/1623) (breach of employment contract and termination)
      The Employment Tribunal Extension of Jurisdiction (Scotland) Order 1994 (S.I. 1994/1624) (corresponding provision for Scotland)
      Regulation 30 of the Working Time Regulations 1998 (S.I. 1998/1833) (breach of regulations)
      Regulation 32 of the Transnational Information and Consultation of Employees Regulations 1999 (S.I. 1999/3323) (detriment relating to European Works Councils)'.—[Mr. Sutcliffe.]
      Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

    Schedule 3
      TRIBUNAL JURISDICTIONS TO WHICH SECTION 31 APPLIES
      Amendment made: No. 49, in page 65, line 29, leave out "Part 8" and insert "Paragraph 156".—[Mr. Sutcliffe.]
    Schedule 4
      TRIBUNAL JURISDICTIONS TO WHICH SECTION 38 APPLIES
      Amendment made: No. 50, in page 66, line 22, leave out "Part 8" and insert "Paragraph 156".—[Mr. Sutcliffe.]
    Schedule 6

      MINOR AND CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS
      Amendment made: No. 29, in page 76, line 2, at end insert—
      29A In section 98 (fairness of dismissal: general), in subsection (6)—

      (a) for "are" there is substituted "is", and

      (b) in paragraph (a), for "99" there is substituted "98A".'.—[Mr. Sutcliffe.]

      Order for Third Reading read.—[Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified.]
      9.16 pm
      Alan Johnson: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
      I thank hon. Members for their important contributions to debate on the Bill, not only on Report, but on Second Reading and in Committee. Those who have participated have done so constructively and with great good humour, and they have provided thorough and helpful scrutiny of the Bill's provisions.
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      The Bill is an important one, touching on many aspects of people's work and family lives. It represents a balanced package, providing new rights and responsibilities for employers and employees alike. The Bill introduces new rights that will ensure that parents are able to spend time with their children when it is most valuable, while they are young—the children, that is, not the parents. We are for the first time introducing statutory paternity and adoption leave, and a requirement that businesses seriously consider requests for flexible working.
      Mr. Kevin Hughes: On the issue of paternity and adoption leave, my hon. Friend will recall that in Committee I tabled probing amendments in respect of those who would not be eligible because their earnings were below the lower limit. He informed the Committee that the Department for Work and Pensions was thinking of redressing that problem to coincide with other provisions, and in correspondence the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has informed me that the Department intends to make regulations to deal with that.
      None the less, I should like to ask my hon. Friend to ensure, with his colleagues at the Department for Work and Pensions, that when those regulations are introduced there is no gap. Normally, benefits are paid after the event, because one has to claim them when one is in the given situation. We need to be sure that people are able to get the top-up income support at the time that they need it, not a couple of weeks after.
      Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend raised that issue in Committee. There was general consensus on the need to do something about it, and I have been considering it in some detail with colleagues at the Department for Work and Pensions. I am delighted to say that we have now agreed that the income support regulations will be amended to enable fathers who are entitled to paternity leave but who do not receive statutory paternity pay to claim income support. In addition, parents who receive paternity pay but who are normally low paid will also be able to top up their income with income support.
      Those changes will ensure that household income does not fall below a certain guaranteed minimum, currently about £130 a week for a couple with one child where the father takes paternity leave. That will provide a degree of financial security sufficient to ensure that all low-paid employees have the opportunity to take up their statutory right to paternity leave. Regulations will be made later in the year, to coincide with the introduction of the new paternity rights. I thought it would be helpful, in response to the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster, North (Mr. Hughes), to confirm that to the House today.
      Mr. Hammond: As we did not reach amendment No. 6, will the Minister confirm also that self-employed people on low pay would be included within the arrangements that he has outlined to the House?
      Alan Johnson: I cannot confirm that. That is a completely different problem. As I explained in Committee, that point applies to a group of people whom we would have to place in an expensive and bureaucratic new system. That would be necessary to meet the same provisions. However, we undertook to consider that as part of the employee-worker review, which I confirmed earlier will be taking place in late spring.

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      The Government are extending maternity leave and simplifying the rules governing maternity leave and pay. Following extensive consultation with a wide range of interest groups, we have designed the new paternity and adoption rights to mirror the simplified maternity provisions. Business representatives asked for that in their responses to our consultation, and we listened to them. These are changes that benefit society as a whole. The new and improved rights will make it easier for parents to make choices about how they balance their work and family lives.
      Removing pressures will encourage employee commitment, motivation and productivity. Many companies already recognise this and use such benefits to employees as an essential part of running a successful and productive business. These measures have been welcomed by business and employees' representatives alike.
      Equally, the involvement of partners of people receiving working-age benefits in work-focused interviews will increase participation in the work force and bring other benefits to society and, therefore, ultimately to the economy.
      The second substantial area covered by the Bill is dispute resolution. A wide range of provisions will introduce new ways of handling disputes in the workplace, and will help deliver modern, competitive workplaces in Britain through better awareness of rights and more and better communication within organisations.
      Ms Walley: Given that we did not reach the amendments that relate to the statutory modified disciplinary procedure, will my hon. Friend give an assurance that he will give further consideration to the amendments which were tabled but not called before they go to another place? There are now only two steps in dismissal cases, and there has not been the opportunity for anyone to conduct a proper investigation. Will my hon. Friend give further consideration to those matters?
      Alan Johnson: As always, we shall keep those issues under review, especially as the Bill goes to the other place. We think that there are clear reasons why the modified two-step procedure is necessary, not least to ensure that those who have been involved in violence and serious cases where there has been discrimination and harassment do not have to discuss the issue. There is the right of appeal. That is why the modified procedure is in place for gross misconduct.
      As I have said, the second substantial area is dispute resolution. The Bill represents a real opportunity to change the way in which workplace disputes are managed by putting communication before litigation. It will ensure a modern user-focused tribunal system that will provide swift and efficient justice. The idea that grievance and discipline procedures should be used in the workplace is neither new nor innovative. The introduction of statutory minimum standards will mean that about 3 million employees who do not currently have any procedures available to them in their workplace, and a further 3 million who have substandard procedures, will in future have a right to a basic but crucial first course of action should a problem arise.
      There are many other provisions in the Bill. The introduction of an equal pay questionnaire will enable the facts of a case to be established early. It will encourage
      168
      the collection of evidence and the settlement of cases before they proceed to tribunal. The absence of transparency on pay information contributes to and perpetuates the gender pay gap. The Government are determined to eliminate pay discrimination, and the questionnaire provision is one step towards that goal.
      Another long-standing problem in the workplace is the provision of training at all levels. The Bill introduces the right to time off for union learning representatives. This will ensure that vulnerable groups of workers, such as older men, people from ethnic minorities and part-timers, who currently all too often miss out on training and development opportunities, will be given support and encouragement from their representatives, who are adept at reaching precisely those groups.
      The provisions on fixed-term employees are equally important. We are ensuring that people on fixed-term contracts cannot be treated less favourably than their colleagues on permanent contracts. We are outlawing the abusive use of consecutive fixed-term contracts. All those measures contribute to the new framework of basic minimum employment rights in a flexible labour market, which the Government are committed to establishing.
      Let us not lose sight of the bigger picture. The Bill is well rounded and balanced, and has been introduced after extensive, in-depth consultation with all the stakeholders. It will allow employees some control over their working lives when they have small children, and will lead to better dialogue in the workplace over working patterns when disputes arise. Such dialogue and an increased use of an open partnership-based approach at work will make employees more motivated and businesses more productive. An increase in productivity is the way to make this country more competitive, which is why the Bill is important and why I commend it to the House.
      9.25 pm
      Mr. Hammond: I, too, congratulate all hon. Members who spoke on Second Reading and subsequently served on what was a constructive Committee.

      This is a Bill of parts, which do not always hang together. It is therefore convenient to deal with them separately in the order in which the Committee considered them. Parts 2 and 3 deal with procedures for grievances and discipline. We generally welcome the Government's attempt to reduce the burden on tribunals caused by cases that should be dealt with in the workplace. We welcome measures aimed at encouraging and increasing the use of workplace dispute resolution measures. We regret the fact that some of the Government's earlier ideas have been watered down along the way, and it remains to be seen whether the Bill will deliver effectively the Government's stated objective of resolving a significantly greater proportion of disputes in the workplace and imposing a significantly reduced work load on tribunals.
      Two issues remain unresolved: the resourcing of the tribunal system, which we touched on earlier, and the rather difficult relationship between the Government and the president of employment tribunals. Members of the Committee have seen the robust correspondence between the president and the Minister, which hardly bodes well for the future of employment tribunals. Generally, however, we welcome the Government's approach, although we regret the fact that they have backed down on a number of issues. We shall watch carefully to see whether their intended results are delivered.

      169
      Part 1 introduces a raft of new rights, to which the Minister referred. The Minister described them as new individual rights given to workers. However, throughout proceedings on the Bill, I have thought of them not so much individual rights granted for the benefit of individual workers but as rights granted for the better functioning of society, which will support families and ensure that children are brought up properly. In that context, I can certainly relate to the Bill, which will have tangible benefits for society. However, it is important to realize—the Minister will agree that this has been the theme throughout proceedings on the Bill—that we are not giving people time off for their own benefit; we are doing so for the benefit of their families. We are not giving adopters time off for their benefit; we are doing so in order that they can bond with the children they are adopting.
      That is a sensible approach, and deserves great support. However, we are concerned, both about the burden of costs and the incidence of costs in connection with the benefits resulting from provisions in part 1. The simple fact is that business, particularly manufacturing, is groaning under the weight of regulations, taxes, new legislation, an overvalued exchange rate and foreign competition. This is not the right time to impose further burdens on business; they will damage competitiveness, reduce flexibility and ultimately affect the ability to invest and deliver jobs.
      Our plea throughout, and the purpose of our new clauses on the subject today, was to ensure that there was a mature debate about the costs and the benefits that will arise from part 1—there are certainly benefits, as well as costs—the incidence of those benefits and costs, and who, in fairness, should meet those costs. Unfortunately, we have not persuaded the Government to move very far. Although there will undoubtedly be benefits for society and probably for some individual employees, there will be disbenefits for others, and the cost will, by and large, be borne by business. We very much regret that during consideration of the Bill we have not persuaded the Government to move much on that issue.
      I was disappointed by the Minister's response to my earlier intervention. I had hoped that he would find a way to include low paid self-employed people in the arrangements for statutory paternity pay, so that they too could benefit from the good that we are delivering, in the same way as low-paid mothers benefit from statutory maternity allowance.
      Part 4 is the ragbag that collects all the other bits and pieces. In this part of the Bill especially, we see the agenda of the trade unions. Clause 43 introduces on a statutory basis union learning representatives, with a right to paid time off for union activities. We are the first to recognise that union learning reps have played and do play a significant and constructive role in some workplaces, though apparently not in the Department for Education and Skills, where there is none.
      Ministers have been at great pains to tell us throughout the Bill that the introduction of learning reps on a statutory basis will be to the benefit of employers, but the statistics suggest that the largest employer in the country—the Government—as not taken heed of its own
      170
      advice to any significant extent. One cannot take best practice where it is working well and impose it across th e board by legislation.
      In a workplace where industrial relations are not harmonious and functioning properly, one cannot introduce by legislation the role of trade union learning reps in the way that that works in the best workplaces, where unions and employers are both committed. It is a matter for education, not for legislation. We believe that by introducing union learning reps as a statutory right, the Government have gone down the wrong route in seeking to impose across the board a practice that will not work in many cases, and in other cases will damage the good work that is going on between employers and their workers.
      Clause 45, which deals with fixed-term working, gold-plates the EU directive, as unions have urged the Government to do and Conservative Members have urged them not to do. We are concerned that there is still a residual hostility to non-conventional work patterns. I emphasise our support for measures that eliminate abusive practice. The Minister mentioned artificial sequential fixed-term contracts. We entirely support the Government's intention to remove that abusive practice.
      Our new clause, which unfortunately we did not reach in the timetabled debate, would have exempted from the provisions of clause 45 cases where the employer had offered the worker a permanent employment contract on the same terms as other people in that workplace doing similar work, but the employee had rejected the offer. The purpose of the new clause was to draw the Government's attention to the fact that, although there may be abuses at the bottom end of the employment curve, at the top end there are many people working on fixed-term contracts whose employers would love to get them on permanent long-term contracts, but are unable to do so. It is their choice to work on fixed-term contracts. The Bill does not recognise that.
      Clause 47 on flexible working was a late addition to the Bill. When it was introduced, I said that it was appallingly drafted, and I still believe that it is. A great chunk of it was lifted from the Bain report. The Minister has ignored the criticisms and questions that we raised about the wording in clause 47. It introduces terminology such as "staff', which is unknown to the Employment Rights Act 1996 into which it is inserted. Our noble Friends in the other place will want to give those matters further close attention.
      The flexible working provisions will impose a new and further burden on business that is not justified by any benefit that will be delivered. I emphasise that we support flexible working, but it cannot be effectively imposed by statute. The issues that we raised have not been dealt with.
      There are many other rather more minor matters that we have not had time to discuss tonight. Our noble Friends will want to take those up when the Bill reaches another place.
      We are considering the Bill in an environment of increased union militancy in which trade unions are asserting a veto over public policy—even public policy that the Government were clearly mandated to implement in the general election of 2001. Business has suffered a barrage of legislation, regulations, directives and taxes, some of which are specifically designed to hit the manufacturing sector, which is the worst affected.

      171
      Business faces one of the toughest environments for a decade. Britain is slipping down the competitiveness league. The productivity gap between the United States and the United Kingdom is widening. The Government respond by piling more cost burdens on business, which will damage our competitiveness still further.
      There are many good ideas in the Bill. There are also some very bad ones, and I am sorry that during its passage we have not persuaded the Government to modify or drop the worst of them. Even for many of the good ideas that we support and endorse, the time is simply not right. Business, especially small business, is reeling under a torrent of Government legislation, regulation and taxation burdens. It needs a breather and space to recoup, to recover and to regain its profitability. This is not the right time for the Bill and I must urge my hon. Friends to vote against Third Reading.
      9.37 pm
      Mr. Lloyd: There is not much time, so I shall try to be brief.
      The Bill contains many good provisions. Unlike the Opposition, I believe that union learning representatives will be widely welcomed throughout industry, not only by employees, but by employers. The measures on paternity pay and leave and rights for adoptive parents are important steps forward. My hon. Friend the Minister's announcement tonight of the minimum income guarantee underwrites that. It is an important part of the process.
      If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I want to ask him to look hard at how we can improve the Bill before it passes to another place. I regret that we did not have time to reach the amendments that were tabled in my name and those of my hon. Friends.
      The Bill provides a new floor for dispute resolution, which is an important step. As the Minister knows, some of us took the view that it would have been better if the ACAS code had been adopted as the basis; we shall have to agree to differ about that. I hope that he will consider the right to be accompanied and the need for proper investigation to take place during the dispute process.
      I draw my hon. Friend's attention to the continuing doubts about whether the concepts of hearing and meeting are really the same thing. I hope that he will reflect on that.
      I turn briefly to tribunals. My hon. Friend knows that there is already concern about the loading on of different types of costs to the tribunal structure, as well as the new additions in the Bill. We have not had time to debate that tonight, but I want to draw to the attention of my hon. Friend the Minister the deterrent effects involved.
      I shall quote briefly from a case that was brought to my attention. It involved an individual who claimed unfair dismissal and who initially acted for himself. His employer's representatives wrote to him, stating:
      "It is clear from the facts that your claim is wholly without merit and is bound to fail. Therefore, we hereby place you upon notice of costs as we are of the view that this claim is frivolous and vexatious and is bound to fail. For the avoidance of doubt, if you withdraw your claim, we shall not pursue you for costs."
      That individual finally sought help from his local law centre and was awarded £50,000 compensation, but his employer's representative had clearly tried to take him out of the game altogether.

      172
      This is a serious issue which cuts through the question of costs and other forms of compensatory structure, and I hope that my hon. Friend will reflect on that. I do not know what he can say tonight to move the debate forward, but I should perhaps remind him that one or two of our noble Friends in the other place are already sitting there with bear traps waiting for the unwary.
      I was intrigued by the gap between the performance of the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) in Committee—the reasonable and, I think, the real hon. Member—and his performance tonight, for which he had been wound up by the Leader of the Opposition and forced to come along and make rather more divisive comments. Some of those comments were ludicrous, but they are all helpful in ensuring that we shall probably not see another Conservative Government in my lifetime.
      9.41 pm
      Mr. Prisk: I am aware that time is short, so I shall attempt to be brief. I congratulate the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) on the professional and concise way in which they have led the debate. They have done so with style and often, dare I say, with aplomb, and one learns from this as a new Member of the House. This has meant that we have been able to have a predominantly constructive debate, which we all welcome.
      On that note, it is good to see maternity leave being matched by paternity leave in the Bill. It is important that we try whenever possible to recognise the role of fathers in families today, although I am disappointed that low-paid, self-employed fathers seem to be excluded from that generosity. I hope that the Minister will rethink that point.
      I shall return, as the Minister would expect, to the question of small businesses. I am still deeply concerned that the Government admit that the Bill will place a disproportionate burden on small firms. We make a fuss about small firms because they are the engine of the economy. They employ the most people and we rely on them for most of our services. The total cost of regulation to business will be in excess of £558 million every year from now on—never mind any costs arising out of the regulations to come—and a disproportionate part of that will fall on the small businesses on which we rely and on which the Chancellor relies for much of his income. The fact that that burden falls on them in that disproportionate way needs to be borne in mind, and I am sure that the Minister will do that.
      Unfortunately, the Secretary of State is not here at the moment. She will be given reserve powers to implement various regulations under the Bill, and I ask the Minister to pass on to her a request that the use of those powers should be sparing, well thought through, and carried out in a thorough manner.
      In the preamble to this debate, and during our discussions, much has been made by Ministers and their supporters of the fact that this is a family friendly Bill. That is an admirable quality, but there is a group comprising 4 million households that the Bill will not help. I am talking about self-employed people, who already spend 31 hours a month trying to deal with the existing bureaucracy, and who will now have to lose another weekend or evening that they could have spent

      173
      with their families. Please let us not forget those families; they are important and we should not ignore them. I hope that the notion of this being a family friendly Bill will be extended to them as well.
      9.44 pm
      Ms Walley: I congratulate the Government on having listened to much of what has been said since the initial consultation. However, given that this evening's debate has been cut short and we were unable to consider two groups of amendments that I very much wanted to discuss, I shall use the couple of minutes available to implore the Minister to look again at the issues that they cover.
      Last July, the Government introduced a new regulation in respect of employment tribunals which enables on-the-spot costs awards of between £500 and £10,000. It is already clear that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) said, employers are using the regulation to harass and intimidate, and as a disincentive to taking cases to employment tribunals. I do not want this splendid Bill to be spoiled by people being unable to take cases to employment tribunals because of the fear of incurring costs.
      Before the Bill proceeds to the other place, I ask the Minister carefully to consider introducing a right to argue against costs and new regulations requiring employment tribunals to take into account people's ability to pay on-the-spot costs of £10,000. Such a requirement does not exist in case law. That is an important issue for smaller companies in particular, where there is often little trade union representation.
      On amendments Nos. 12, 34 and 35, which we were unable to discuss, I echo the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central. The newly modified statutory procedure does not take account of the basic rules of natural justice. I have discussed that issue with the Minister, and in my view we could introduce a procedure that is easier to follow.
      I congratulate the Government on enabling far more people to be brought under the new regime, but we shall not make progress if our attempts to simplify undermine natural justice and give employment tribunals carte blanche to find against individuals. I implore the Minister to consider those important points of detail before the Bill progresses to the other place. The devil is always in the detail, and the rest of the Bill and the huge gains made on fixed-term contracts, maternity and paternity pay and adoption leave should not be spoiled by a failure to take account of those two small but none the less significant procedural issues.
      9.48 pm
      Norman Lamb: I begin by reiterating that there is considerable support on the Liberal Democrat Benches for the vast majority of the Bill. We strongly support the introduction of paternity leave, extended maternity leave and adoption leave, which are good and welcome reforms. The introduction, with a light touch, of flexible working is also extremely welcome and it builds sensibly on existing law on indirect discrimination. We are concerned, however, about the Bill's impact on small businesses, which is why we support regular monitoring not only of its benefits, but of its cost to that sector in particular.
      174
      I want to focus on an issue raised by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley), which I regard as a matter of absolute principle. I have already crossed swords with the Minister, far too early on a Sunday morning, on BBC Radio 5 Live over the question of the modified dismissal and disciplinary procedure, but I will raise it again. In effect, the procedure removes a fundamental right to defend oneself before dismissal. That applies to all cases of gross misconduct which, obviously, are the most serious cases.
      I do not understand the logic. Why are people's rights diminished when the allegations are of the most serious kind? The opposite obtains in criminal law: when serious allegations are made, people have a right to trial by jury. They have almost extended rights of protection. Under the Bill, those confronted by such allegations will not even have the right to a hearing before being dismissed. That is quite simply wrong. An entitlement that survived 18 years of Conservative government is now being removed by a Labour Government.
      In cases involving gross misconduct, the facts are often complex. A mass of documentation is often involved, and often the original allegation can be disproved by the employee concerned.
      Alan Johnson: The hon. Gentleman should understand that in all cases, including those of gross misconduct, there is a right to appeal.
      Norman Lamb: I do understand that, but I know from considerable experience as an employment lawyer—indeed, we all know—that once an employee is out of the door, the right of appeal will rarely lead to reinstatement. The chance to have a say must come before the decision is made.
      In Committee and on other occasions, the Minister has said that the Bill provides, in a sense, a bottom line and that many companies have more detailed procedures. He must accept, however, that part of the Bill constitutes an effective reversal of the Polkey principle. That means, in layman's terms, that if an employer can convince a tribunal that going through the more extended procedures would have made no difference, the dismissal is fair. Inevitably, employers will go to tribunals and argue that case. They will say that they have ignored the more extended procedures because they would have made no difference, and that the dismissal should therefore be found to be fair. The result will be less protection for employees.
      Moreover, as time goes by employers are bound to amend their disciplinary procedures to bring them more into line with the basic provisions of the Bill. In cases of gross misconduct, employees, according to companies' own disciplinary procedures, will have no right to a hearing before being dismissed. All they will have is a rather hopeless right of appeal after the event.
      We hear from the Minister that the ACAS code provides additional guidance and protection, but we are told that ACAS will amend the code in the light of the Bill. Who knows what will result from that? I think it almost inevitable that ACAS will reduce the protection in line with the reduced protection provided by the Bill.
      There is no doubt that existing case law provides the right to a hearing before dismissal. That case law, however, is flexible enough to recognise the existence of

      175
      exceptional cases. The Minister gave the example of a "one-man band", when an employee thumps his employer in the face. A disciplinary hearing would be of little value in such circumstances; under existing law, a tribunal would find a dismissal without a hearing to be fair. Existing law also enables an employer to remove an employee from the premises by way of suspension, in order to remove a difficult problem pending a hearing. The hearing, however, must still take place.
      I urge the Minister to listen both to Labour Members and to us, and to seriously consider whether, in cases of gross misconduct, he really wants to remove the right to the fundamental protection provided by a hearing before dismissal. As the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley) said, it would be a shame to damage a Bill that has so much merit by removing a protection that survived 18 years of Conservative government.
      9.54 pm
      Judy Mallaber: May I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to take account of the points that have been raised by my right hon. and hon. Friends? I will not rehearse the arguments which have been put by my hon. Friends the Members for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) and for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley). We have concerns about issues such as preparation costs and whether they will act as a disincentive to people taking cases forward.
      I should like to highlight the very positive items in the Bill, especially the paternity and adoption leave provisions. I could give numerous examples of how flexible working will benefit employers and employees. I know of nurses who are unable to return to work, although we want them to do so, because local management is not prepared to be flexible about adjusting their rota to enable those nurses to deal with their child care provision.
      I am intrigued by the attitude of Conservative Members. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) was almost cuddly and positively friendly in Committee, yet tonight he tells us that the Bill is all about burdens on business. There is a considerable contradiction in Conservative Members' attitude. My hon. Friend the Minister pointed out the benefits and savings available to employers in operating flexible working conditions. The proposals have been put forward in consultation with employers, unions and representatives.
      I was astonished to find that as soon as we discussed union learning representatives—promoting education in the workplace and using that huge trade union experience and history to promote education in basic skills and other areas for people at work—Conservative Members suddenly went completely doolally and decided that this was the end of civilisation as we know it. We spent nearly a whole day debating it—it was simply amazing. Conservative Members have displayed considerable contradiction in their attitude to the Bill's very positive proposals. We should be using people's skills and encouraging them; it is difficult to get people at work to acknowledge that they have a skills gap and that they need training and education. The more help there is to achieve that the better.
      I applaud the Bill's positive proposals. We have seen the clear division between Labour Members who want a positive attitude towards relations in the work force and
      176
      Conservative Members who, even when they are trying to be good and nice on various issues, end up reverting to type in wanting to create conflict rather than co-operation.
      9.58 pm
      Mr. Simmonds: There is much in the Bill that I welcome, such as new rights for parents, flexible working, maternity and paternity pay and leave and, in particular, the reform of the tribunal system. However, we should be under no illusion: the Bill is driven by the Government's desire to acquiesce to the trade unions. In effect, it is payback time. The Bill redresses the balance and moves the fulcrum from the position that it has occupied, correctly, for so many years.
      There are serious issues in the Bill with which I disagree, such as the allowance of trade union learning representatives—time off in which to continue to ply their trade—and fixed-term contracts. Many complicated issues to do with pensions, of tremendous concern to employer organisations, have not been debated properly. Burdens on businesses, particularly small businesses, will continue to lead to the further erosion of competitiveness. Apparently, we have dropped from ninth to 19th in the table.
      I urge the Minister and future Secretaries of State to use the regulations provided for in the Bill with consideration and thought, and to bear in mind the continued burden and cost to businesses.
      Question put:—
      The House divided: Ayes 358, Noes 132.

      Division No. 167]

      [10 pm

      AYES

      Ainger, Nick

      Bruce, Malcolm

      Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

      Burgon, Colin

      Allan, Richard

      Burnham, Andy

      Allen, Graham

      Burstow, Paul

      Anderson, Rt Hon Donald (Swansea E)

      Cable, Dr Vincent

      Cairns, David

      Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)

      Calton, Mrs Patsy

      Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary

      Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

      Atherton, Ms Candy

      Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

      Austin, John

      Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife)

      Bailey, Adrian

      Baird, Vera

      Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

      Banks, Tony

      Caplin, Ivor

      Barnes, Harry

      Carmichael, Alistair

      Barrett, John

      Caton, Martin

      Battle, John

      Cawsey, Ian

      Bayley, Hugh

      Challen, Colin

      Beard, Nigel

      Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

      Begg, Miss Anne

      Chaytor, David

      Beggs, Roy

      Chidgey, David

      Beith, Rt Hon A J

      Clapham, Michael

      Benn, Hilary

      Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

      Bennett, Andrew

      Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

      Best, Harold

      Betts, Clive

      Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

      Blackman, Liz

      Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)

      Blears, Ms Hazel

      Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

      Blizzard, Bob

      Clelland, David

      Bradley, Rt Hon Keith (Withington)

      Clwyd, Ann

      Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

      Coaker, Vernon

      Brake, Tom

      Cohen, Harry

      Brooke, Mrs Annette L

      Colman, Tony

      Brown, Rt Hon Nicholas (Newcastle E & Wallsend)

      Connarty, Michael

      Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

      Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

      Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)

      Browne, Desmond

      Corbyn, Jeremy

      177

      Corston, Jean

      Holmes, Paul

      Cotter, Brian

      Hope, Phil

      Cousins, Jim

      Hopkins, Kelvin

      Cranston, Ross

      Howarth, Rt Hon Alan (Newport E)

      Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

      Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

      Howells, Dr Kim

      Cummings, John

      Hoyle, Lindsay

      Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack (Copeland)

      Hughes, Beverley (Stretford)

      Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

      Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

      Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

      Humble, Mrs Joan

      Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire

      Hurst, Alan

      Davey, Edward (Kingston)

      Hutton, Rt Hon John

      Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

      Iddon, Dr Brian

      David, Wayne

      Illsley, Eric

      Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

      Ingram, Rt Hon Adam

      Davis, Rt Hon Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

      Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead)

      Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

      Dawson, Hilton

      Jamieson, David

      Dean, Mrs Janet

      Jenkins, Brian

      Denham, Rt Hon John

      Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)

      Dhanda, Parmjit

      Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

      Dismore, Andrew

      Jones, Kevan (N Durham)

      Dobbin, Jim

      Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

      Dobson, Rt Hon Frank

      Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

      Donaldson, Jeffrey M

      Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

      Donohoe, Brian H

      Joyce, Eric

      Doughty, Sue

      Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)

      Dowd, Jim

      Kemp, Fraser

      Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

      Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

      Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

      Khabra, Piara S

      Edwards, Huw

      Kidney, David

      Ellman, Mrs Louise

      Kilfoyle, Peter

      Ennis, Jeff

      King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

      Ewing, Annabelle

      Kirkwood, Archy

      Fisher, Mark

      Ladyman, Dr Stephen

      Fitzpatrick, Jim

      Lamb, Norman

      Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

      Lammy, David

      Flynn, Paul

      Laws, David

      Follett, Barbara

      Laxton, Bob

      Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)

      Lazarowicz, Mark

      Foulkes, George

      Leslie, Christopher

      Galloway, George

      Levitt, Torn

      Gardiner, Barry

      Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

      George, Andrew (St Ives)

      Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen

      George, Rt Hon Bruce (Walsall S)

      Linton, Martin

      Gerrard, Neil

      Lloyd, Tony

      Gibson, Dr Ian

      Llwyd, Elfyn

      Gidley, Sandra

      Love, Andrew

      Gilroy, Linda

      Lucas, Ian

      Godsiff, Roger

      Luke, Iain

      Goggins, Paul

      Lyons, John

      Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

      McAvoy, Thomas

      Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

      McCafferty, Chris

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      McCartney, Rt Hon Ian

      Grogan, John

      McDonagh, Siobhain

      Hain, Rt Hon Peter

      MacDonald, Calum

      Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

      McDonnell, John

      Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

      MacDougall, John

      Hancock, Mike

      McFall, John

      Hanson, David

      McGuire, Mrs Anne

      Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)

      McIsaac, Shona

      Harvey, Nick

      McKechin, Ann

      Havard, Dai

      Mackinlay, Andrew

      Healey, John

      McNamara, Kevin

      Heath, David

      MacShane, Denis

      Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

      Mactaggart, Fiona

      Hendrick, Mark

      McWalter, Tony

      Hepburn, Stephen

      McWilliam, John

      Heppell, John

      Mahmood, Khalid

      Hermon, Lady

      Mahon, Mrs Alice

      Hesford, Stephen

      Mallaber, Judy

      Heyes, David

      Mann, John

      Hill, Keith

      Marris, Rob

      Hinchliffe, David

      Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

      Hodge, Margaret

      Marshall, David (Shettleston)

      178

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Marshall-Andrews, Robert

      Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

      Martlew, Eric

      Smith, Angela (Basildon)

      Meale, Alan

      Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)

      Merron, Gillian

      Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe)

      Michael, Rt Hon Alun

      Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

      Milburn, Rt Hon Alan

      Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

      Miliband, David

      Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

      Moffatt, Laura

      Soley, Clive

      Mole, Chris

      Southworth, Helen

      Moonie, Dr Lewis

      Spellar, Rt Hon John

      Moore, Michael

      Squire, Rachel

      Moran, Margaret

      Starkey, Dr Phyllis

      Morgan, Julie

      Steinberg, Gerry

      Morris, Rt Hon Estelle

      Stevenson, George

      Mudie, George

      Stewart, David (Inverness E)

      Mullin, Chris

      Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

      Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

      Stinchcombe, Paul

      Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

      Stoate, Dr Howard

      Naysmith, Dr Doug

      Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin

      Norris, Dan

      Stringer, Graham

      Oaten, Mark

      Stuart, Ms Gisela

      O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

      Stunell, Andrew

      O'Hara, Edward

      Sutcliffe, Gerry

      Öpik, Lembit

      Tami, Mark

      Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)

      Taylor, Rt Hon Ann (Dewsbury)

      Owen, Albert

      Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)

      Palmer, Dr Nick

      Taylor, David (NW Leics)

      Picking, Anne

      Taylor, Dr Richard (Wyre F)

      Pickthall, Colin

      Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

      Pike, Peter

      Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)

      Plaskitt, James

      Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

      Pollard, Kerry

      Thurso, John

      Pond, Chris

      Tonge, Dr Jenny

      Pope, Greg

      Touhig, Don

      Pound, Stephen

      Truswell, Paul

      Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

      Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

      Prescott, Rt Hon John

      Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

      Price, Adam

      Turner, Neil (Wigan)

      Prosser, Gwyn

      Twigg, Derek (Halton)

      Pugh, Dr John

      Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

      Purchase, Ken

      Tyler, Paul

      Purnell, James

      Tynan, Bill

      Quin, Rt Hon Joyce

      Walley, Ms Joan

      Quinn, Lawrie

      Ward, Ms Claire

      Rammell, Bill

      Wareing, Robert N

      Rapson, Syd

      Watson, Tom

      Raynsford, Rt Hon Nick

      Watts, David

      Reed, Andy (Loughborough)

      Webb, Steve

      Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)

      Weir, Michael

      Rendel, David

      White, Brian

      Robertson, Angus (Moray)

      Whitehead, Dr Alan

      Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

      Wicks, Malcolm

      Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

      Roche, Mrs Barbara

      Ross, Ernie

      Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)

      Roy, Frank

      Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

      Ruane, Chris

      Williams, Roger (Brecon)

      Ruddock, Joan

      Winnick, David

      Russell, Bob (Colchester)

      Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

      Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)

      Wishart, Pete

      Ryan, Joan

      Wood, Mike

      Salmond, Alex

      Woodward, Shaun

      Salter, Martin

      Woolas, Phil

      Sanders, Adrian

      Worthington, Tony

      Sarwar, Mohammad

      Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

      Savidge, Malcolm

      Wright, David (Telford)

      Sawford, Phil

      Wright, Tony (Cannock)

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Younger-Ross, Richard

      Shaw, Jonathan

      Sheerman, Barry

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Sheridan, Jim

      Mr. Tony McNulty and

      Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

      Mr. Ian Pearson.

      179

      NOES

      Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

      Gray, James

      Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James

      Grayling, Chris

      Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

      Green, Damian (Ashford)

      Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

      Greenway, John

      Bacon, Richard

      Grieve, Dominic

      Baldry, Tony

      Gummer, Rt Hon John

      Barker, Gregory

      Hague, Rt Hon William

      Baron, John

      Hammond, Philip

      Bellingham, Henry

      Hawkins, Nick

      Bercow, John

      Hayes, John

      Beresford, Sir Paul

      Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David

      Blunt, Crispin

      Hendry, Charles

      Boswell, Tim

      Hoban, Mark

      Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

      Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas

      Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia

      Horam, John

      Brazier, Julian

      Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

      Burns, Simon

      Hunter, Andrew

      Burnside, David

      Jack, Rt Hon Michael

      Burt, Alistair

      Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

      Butterfill, John

      Key, Robert

      Cameron, David

      Knight Rt Hon Greg (E Yorkshire)

      Campbell, Gregory (E Lond'y)

      Laing, Mrs Eleanor

      Cash, William

      Lait, Mrs Jacqui

      Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

      Leigh, Edward

      Letwin, Oliver

      Chope, Christopher

      Liddell-Grainger, Ian

      Clappison, James

      Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

      Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

      Loughton, Tim

      Collins, Tim

      Luff, Peter

      Cran, James

      McIntosh, Miss Anne

      Davies, Quentin (Grantham)

      MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew

      Duncan, Alan (Rutland & Melton)

      Maclean, Rt Hon David

      Duncan, Peter (Galloway)

      Malins, Humfrey

      Duncan Smith, Rt Hon Iain

      Mates, Michael

      Evans, Nigel

      Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian

      Fallon, Michael

      Mercer, Patrick

      Field, Mark (Cities of London)

      Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

      Forth, Rt Hon Eric

      Moss, Malcolm

      Fox, Dr Liam

      Murrison, Dr Andrew

      Francois, Mark

      Norman, Archie

      Gale, Roger

      O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

      Garnier, Edward

      Osborne, George (Tatton)

      Gibb, Nick

      Ottaway, Richard

      180

      Page, Richard

      Swire, Hugo

      Paice, James

      Syms, Robert

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Tapsell, Sir Peter

      Paterson, Owen

      Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)

      Pickles, Eric

      Taylor, John (Solihull)

      Portillo, Rt Hon Michael

      Tredinnick, David

      Prisk, Mark

      Trend, Michael

      Redwood, Rt Hon John

      Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

      Robathan, Andrew

      Tyrie, Andrew

      Robertson, Hugh (Faversham)

      Viggers, Peter

      Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

      Walter, Robert

      Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

      Waterson, Nigel

      Roe, Mrs Marion

      Watkinson, Angela

      Rosindell, Andrew

      Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann

      Ruffley, David

      Wiggin, Bill

      Sayeed, Jonathan

      Wilkinson, John

      Willetts, David

      Selous, Andrew

      Wilshire, David

      Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian

      Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

      Simmonds, Mark

      Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)

      Spelman, Mrs Caroline

      Yeo, Tim

      Spink, Bob

      Young, Rt Hon Sir George

      Spring, Richard

      Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Steen, Anthony

      Mrs. Cheryl Gillan and

      Swayne, Desmond

      Dr. Julian Lewis.

      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Bill read the Third time, and passed.

  DELEGATED LEGISLATION
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(6) (Standing Committees o, Delegated Legislation),
  DELEGATED LEGISLATION

    TERRORISM
    That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Continuance of Part VII) Order 2002, which was laid before this House on 31st January, be approved.—[Mrs. McGuire.]
    Question agreed to.

  Rail Services (Bromley)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mrs. McGuire.]
  10.14 pm
  Mr. John Horam: I am delighted to have this opportunity to talk about rail services in Bromley and to have the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mrs. Lait), who is in the Chamber because she is as concerned about those rail services as I am. I tell the Minister, who is listening with his usual assiduity, that many thousands of people commute daily from stations such as Orpington, Petts Wood, Chelsfield and St. Mary Cray, in my constituency and in that of my hon. Friend. Those people make a massive contribution to London's economy, which now represents one fifth of the United Kingdom's entire economy.
  Some 21 per cent. of our national income comes from London, and my constituents make a huge contribution to that. Indeed, the public revenues, which the Minister is here to represent on this occasion, receive a net contribution of £13 billion to £23 billion, depending on how it is calculated, from London, to which my commuting constituents make a solid contribution. I could say of them what John Milton, one of our great English poets, said in addressing Parliament:
  "Lords and Commons of England—Consider what nation it is whereof you are and of which you are the governors: a nation not slow and dull, but of quick, ingenious and piercing spirit; acute to invent, subtile and sinewy to discourse, not beneath the reach of any point that human capacity can soar to."
  Such are my constituents—they are the very backbone of our economy and nation in my view and in that of many others. As they commute in and out of our great metropolis, they deserve a good commuter rail service, but the fact is that they are not getting that service today.
  I have raised this issue continually, as the Minister is well aware because he has replied to at least two of those debates. In this Session, I have raised it time and again. I referred to the commuting problems of my constituents on 26 June in the debate on the Loyal Address. I raised the issue in Westminster Hall in the debate on transport in the south-east, which was initiated by my hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling). I did so again in the debate on Railtrack initiated by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) on 13 November, and in the Christmas Adjournment debate on 19 December, and I also asked a question when the Transport Secretary introduced his strategic rail plan on 14 January. The Select Committee on Environmental Audit, of which I have the privilege to be the Chairman, also had the interesting experience of cross-questioning the Secretary of State.
  I have raised the issue on several occasions in the House because it is a daily problem for my constituents, and I am very concerned about their daily problems. In addition, in December, with the help of my friends in the Orpington Conservative association, I stood outside the four stations—not all at once, obviously—in my constituency and handed out questionnaires, which my constituents were happy enough to fill in. I have here the responses, or at least a proportion of them, and I should be happy to pass them to the Minister if he would like to look at them.
  182
  I am a one-man focus group so far as the Minister is concerned. I can tell him that a great deal of pain is expressed in those pages; they contain my constituents' honest comments on the rail service that they receive. Their main complaint is overcrowding, closely followed by punctuality—perhaps I should rephrase that as delays or non-punctuality—further followed by the fact that there are few late-night trains and by the lack of disabled access. However, there was very little criticism of the staff. Both the station staff and the train staff were universally praised for the concerns that they have shown. The staff should be praised, because it is not their fault that the train services are bad.
  I took all the information to Mr. Olivier Brousse, the managing director of Connex South Eastern. We had a useful conversation and I formed a favourable impression of his managerial capacities. I also gained the impression that he was doing his best to provide a good rail service to commuters in my constituency but that he needed the proper support. Subsequent to that meeting, Mr. Brousse's chief of staff wrote to me to say:
  "Thank you for taking the time to meet Olivier last week to discuss the Connex rail network."
  The letter confirmed:
  "Your recent passenger survey reflects the concerns of our passengers across the south-east and I am grateful to you for detailing the most common complaints."
  My remarks are therefore reinforced by the views of the managing director of the rail company providing the service to my constituents.
  As the House knows, the Government have regrettably ceased to publish figures for the punctuality of train services and will not do so until March. I do not quite know why that it is—
  Mr. Greg Knight: We do know.
  Mr. Horam: Well, we suspect that we know even if we have yet to receive a formal explanation.
  The Government reckoned without the assiduity of the shadow Minister for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles). He invoked the passengers charter, which says that train companies must publish monthly their figures for punctuality, and he has put together the figures. They show that, since Railtrack was put into administration in September, delays on the south-east Kent link line have increased by 47 per cent. and that delays on the south-east Kent coast line have increased by 58 per cent. That represents a huge collapse in punctuality since Railtrack was taken into administration. Mr. Brousse also told me that the number of seats lost per day has risen from 24,000 to 100,000, and that fact further explains the overcrowding on the service.
  Mrs. Jacqui Lait: I am listening to my hon. Friend carefully, because his experience mirrors mine. However, there are only four railway stations in his constituency whereas there are 13 in mine.
  Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the simplest solutions to overcrowding would be to lengthen the trains? To lengthen the trains, it is necessary to lengthen the platforms, but the Government's takeover and renationalisation of Railtrack means that there is little

  183
  chance of being able to carry out the development that will lengthen the platforms and help to relieve the problem of overcrowding.
  Mr. Horam: My hon. Friend is entirely right. I shall come to that exact point and direct questions to the Minister that I hope he will be able to answer.
  Apart from the ongoing problem of overcrowding that my hon. Friend and I have mentioned, there has been a disastrous collapse in punctuality following the events of September. The managing director of Connex South Eastern was quite plain about the causes of that. He said that it resulted from the collapse of morale of Railtrack staff that had followed the Government's decisions. The staff simply do not know what sort of company they are working for. Decisions are being delayed, so they do not know what sort of company they will work for. They do not know whether it will be a German company, a private company or a Government-sponsored company. They are in a state of confusion and that obviously affects their morale.
  Although things have been better since Christmas, the improvement is fragile. I share the opinion of the managing director of Connex South Eastern that if the Railtrack problem is not resolved inside six months there is a danger of losing key staff and the situation will spiral further downwards. When will Railtrack come out of administration? When will we have some certainty about its future? The Minister will recall that the Secretary of State said on "Breakfast with Frost" that that will take just over six months, but it has already been nearly six months. Are the Government talking about another six months? Will it happen this autumn?
  The Minister may also be aware of the power supply problem. We have had the wrong leaves and the wrong snow; we now have the wrong power. The new 375 trains are too powerful for the electric current that is used on the south-eastern track. They are coming into service in the next few months and cannot be used except in "a degraded form", to quote the managing director. They will have to go much more slowly so that they do not overload the power system, which means that punctuality will again be unsatisfactory. When will that problem be resolved?
  Overcrowding, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham referred, is also a problem. The phrase "cattle-truck commuting" has been used to describe how people are so squashed into carriages that they have less room than many animals do when we transport them around the country. As a consequence, we have the phenomenon of rail rage. The House may not be familiar with that term, although we have all heard of road rage. I have witnessed rail rage at Charing Cross station in the evening when too many people are trying to get on to a train. Inevitably, the unsatisfactory rail service puts pressure on people, forces them into disputes and causes friction and anger. The Government must pay attention to that.
  As my hon. Friend said, the solution in the medium term is to lengthen platforms and re-site signal boxes so that instead of the usual four-car or six-car trains, 12-car trains can be used to carry more people, especially during peak travelling times. I have a copy of the shortened version of the strategic plan, which is beautifully presented. It contains the commitment that by 2005 most of the 11,000 platforms throughout the country will be
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  lengthened and the problem will be addressed. Will all the stations on the Connex lines—the Kent link and the Kent coast line—that serve Bromley be lengthened so that we have 12-car trains to tackle the problem of overcrowding? Will that be resolved by 2005?
  Mrs. Lait: Does my hon. Friend share my disappointment that no Liberal Democrats are present to listen to his clear exposition of the problems that commuters face in Bromley?
  Mr. Horam: This is a matter on which we could have a measure of cross-party agreement. The Minister is here, and I am delighted to see my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight). His constituency is far from Bromley, but he is still interested in these matters. It is disappointing that there are no Liberal Democrat Members present, and in view of what they have said in the past it is rather surprising.
  I should like an answer to the crucial question of whether platforms at all the stations along the line from Orpington, Beckenham, St. Mary Cray and Chelsfield will be lengthened so that they can take trains long enough to resolve the problem of overcrowding.
  It has been suggested that the toilets and seats should be removed from coaches to cram in more people. That is a desperate measure, and it would be a move backwards, not forwards, if people could not even get a seat on the train or go to the toilet. I hope that the Minister will comment on that. From Orpington, it may take 25 or 30 minutes to get to central London, so there must be no question of removing the seats and toilets from those trains. What, then, is being suggested? Are we talking only about very short journeys, of perhaps 10 or 15 minutes, in which case the train is more like a tube train and it may be acceptable to have no seats or toilets?
  On my final point, safety, I shall be brief, as I want to give the Minister time to reply fully on this important matter. Like Conservative Members, he knows that the railways have a history of being very safe; and they remain so. Whether nationalised or privatised, the railways are the safest mode of transport, although the issue of safety was not well handled by the Deputy Prime Minister when he was in charge of these matters, or by the Government as a whole. There are still worries about safety, particularly in overcrowded trains such as those from Bromley and Orpington. People wonder, "What if something goes wrong while I am packed into this train like a sardine?"
  My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham may know that there was a derailment at Beckenham junction only 10 days ago. There were two serious incidents of signals passed at danger near Orpington in which, fortunately, no one was killed or seriously injured, and there was a fire on a train from Orpington to central London. I understand from the strategic plan that the train protection and warning system will be in place by 2003. Does that mean that all the trains coming from Bromley and Orpington will have the TPWS installed by the end of next year, so that the sort of accidents that occurred last year and continue this year will no longer be possible?
  I invite the Minister to remember my initial remarks, which were that this debate concerns the most important people—the backbone of this country's economy—who come from Bromley every day to run London's economy.

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  They deserve, and are certainly sorely in need of, a sensible and comfortable daily commute in and out of London.
  10.34 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions (Mr. David Jamieson): I congratulate the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Horam) on securing this debate. He noted my assiduity in listening to him, which I always do, and I noted his assiduity in raising this matter in the House on so many occasions.
  I was sorry that the tone of the debate was somewhat lowered by the hon. Member for Beckenham (Mrs. Lait). I believe that the Speaker's guidelines are that no reference should be made to Members of other parties who may or may not be in the Chamber during half-hour debates. Perhaps the hon. Lady should refresh her memory in that respect. She also mentioned the renationalisation of Railtrack, and some may harbour an ambition to do that, but I am sorry to disappoint her: Railtrack is in administration and will come out of administration when that is what the administrator advises.
  I am aware of the contribution made by the people of south-east England to our economy. The hon. Member for Orpington said that they were the most important; some might differ from him on that point, but I shall not engage him on it tonight. We recognise the importance to our economy of the south-east and those who travel daily to work. I hope he will note that I have the good grace to admit there are transport problems—he described them as a daily problem for his constituents. In return, he might have the good grace to admit that those problems did not start on 1 May 1997.
  I have little time to respond to the debate, but let me first address the current performance of Connex South Eastern, which provides the service to and from Bromley North and Bromley South. The latest figures published by the Strategic Rail Authority for the period 1 April 2001 to 13 October 2001 show that 83.9 per cent. of Connex South Eastern services arrived within five minutes of their scheduled arrival time. Since those statistics were published, I understand from the SRA that performance has deteriorated, mainly due to adverse weather conditions and a consequential increase in infrastructure and train failures. The hon. Gentleman cited the figures for recent months, but I am sure that if he looks back over many years, he will see that performance figures tend to deteriorate at this time of year, and generally pick up as the weather improves.
  Connex is well aware that improvements are necessary. On 10 January, it launched a new performance drive—I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is familiar with it. Called "Over 90", it is aimed at achieving more than 90 per cent. peak punctuality. I understand the current results are encouraging.
  The plan for the future of the railway published on 14 January by the SRA identifies priorities for improving Britain's rail network to ensure that the Government's growth targets are met. The plan outlines how improvements for passengers and freight customers will be delivered in the medium and short term, and also sets out our long-term ideas for the next decade.
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  Although rail traffic has grown substantially since privatisation, which requires extra trains, the existing infrastructure has sometimes failed to match network capacity, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out. That has inevitably led to operating difficulties and poor perception of our railways. However, there is no question but that Britain's railways have a key role to play in the economy, in reducing road congestion, in offering a safe form of travel, in protecting the environment, and in safeguarding health and promoting social inclusion.
  London and the south-east will benefit vastly from the strategic plan, as travel to and from London is the major source of demand for passenger rail travel: 70 per cent. of journeys nationally are made on the London and south-east network. The London and south-east area suffers from the worst overcrowding: the numbers passing daily through the main London terminals are now at an historic high. Measures will be taken to tackle overcrowding on all 10 London train operating companies. That may require longer trains, longer platforms and increased track capacity.
  Early developments on the Connex South Eastern franchise will ensure the introduction of 210 vehicles of new class 375 rolling stock by 2002; I will say more about that shortly, if there is time. The company will also invest £40.5 million in rolling stock reliability improvements for class 465, 466 and 508 trains. Connex South Eastern has 145 stations eligible for upgraded facilities under the incremental output statements scheme described in the strategic plan, with which I am sure the hon. Gentleman is familiar. The works are due to be completed by the end of 2004 and could include facilities such as waiting rooms, toilets, security and information systems.
  Significant capacity will be freed on the existing network in 2007, when the channel tunnel rail link is planned to open. It will offer fast domestic services from Kent, with new trains, and will contribute to a major reduction in overcrowding, as well as reducing the number of Eurostar trains running through Orpington from 2003 and through Bromley from 2007. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman recognises that as an improvement.
  In common with other train operating companies, Connex is required to remove all mark 1, slam-door rolling stock from service by 31 December 2004. The obligation to replace this stock is contained within its current franchise agreement.
  Connex has 55 new trains, which are currently undergoing tests and modifications, which must be completed before they can go into passenger service.
  The hon. Gentleman talked about power supply. The Strategic Rail Authority is leading a cross-industry team that is charged with overseeing the programme for replacing the slam-door trains in the Southern region and ensuring that the future electric power and infrastructure improvements are capable of meeting both the 2004 deadline for replacement and longer-term needs. I am assured that currently there are no vehicles sitting idle because of power supply problems. I am sure that that will be good news for the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Horam: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Jamieson: I will give way, but I will be inhibited from responding to some of his other points.
  Mr. Horam: Does what the Minister says mean that the power supply problem will be solved by the end of 2004?
  Mr. Jamieson: I am saying that the power supply problems, as they exist, will be addressed by that time. It is hoped and anticipated that the problems will be dealt with in that time. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that it is difficult to make an assessment because the amount of power required for the new units and how many will come into commission by that time are matters for the company. Another factor is delivery from the rolling stock companies. As I have said, that would certainly be our ambition.
  The Strategic Rail Authority has funded a number of workstreams aimed at identifying the enhancements to the network that might be necessary. Last month it agreed funding for the establishment of a dedicated project team within Railtrack charged with continuing this work, and putting a plan together to resource and deliver it.
  The hon. Gentleman mentioned the strategic plan objective for Connex to extend platforms to accommodate 12-car trains to increase capacity and reduce overcrowding. Extended platforms on the Dartford via Bexleyheath and Sidcup routes will be included in the Thameslink 2000 project while extending platforms on the Gillingham and Dartford via Greenwich route is also proposed in the strategic plan. I hope that that is also good news for the hon. Gentleman.
  The hon. Gentleman was also concerned that Railtrack in administration may be affecting morale and subsequent performance. Railtrack was a company that failed. It had
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  massive cost overruns, and in the end it was incapable of delivering the improvements that we and its customers had every right to see. I hope to see Railtrack come out of administration quickly, but the length of administration is set by the administrator, who has duties both to its railway and to the shareholders of Railtrack plc, and to is creditors. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman shares the Government's objective that the process can be completed as quickly as possible.
  It is not surprising that uncertainty has affected Railtrack staff since the company went into administration, but the Government remain committed to providing £30 billion of support to the railways over the 10-year plan. Railtrack being taken into administration has not altered that commitment one jot. I am sure that that will be good news to the hon. Gentleman.
  We now have an opportunity to meet the ambition that the hon. Gentleman and his constituents have to create and operate a better railway system. It will be for the administrator to make recommendations to Ministers on the most appropriate structure for Railtrack to emerge from administration.
  This has been a short but useful debate. Sadly, I have not had the time to cover all the points made by the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Beckenham—
  The motion having been made after Ten o'clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at sixteen minutes to Eleven o'clock.