Commons Sitting of 23 October 2000

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
THE RIGHT HON. SIR EDWARD HEATH took the Chair, pursuant to Standing Order No. 1 (Election of the Speaker).

Election of Speaker
The Prime Minister (Mr. Tony Blair): I have to inform the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the resignation of the right hon. Betty Boothroyd, lately Speaker of this House, gives leave to the House to proceed forthwith to the election of a new Speaker.
Sir Edward Heath: The House may be assisted if I make a short statement about the procedure this afternoon. The first business of the House must be to elect a Speaker. Under Standing Order No. 1, whenever it is necessary to proceed forthwith to the choice of a Speaker, it falls to the Member with the longest continuous service in the House to preside. It is also laid down that when a motion has been made that a certain Member do take the Chair, further nominations are to be made in the form of amendments to that motion.
The Standing Order therefore means that all I can preside over is the election of a Speaker by the means laid down in the Standing Order. Although that procedure may sound complex, it is exactly the same as that adopted by the House in deciding on any motion to which amendments are offered. First, the motion is moved. If there are amendments, they are then moved and decided on. Once an amendment has been carried, the main question, as amended, is put to the House for decision. If no amendment is carried and no more are forthcoming, the main question is put for decision. I hope that that will be helpful.
Mr. Tony Benn: Sir Edward, you and I have sat under eight Speakers in 15 Parliaments over
2
50 years, and you know, better than any of us, the importance of the Speaker to the work of Parliament. We are in some difficulty today. We do not know the names of the candidates because they have never been put on the Order Paper. We do not know who will move them or second them. We did not know what statement you would make until you made it. Officially, we will not know of any proposal of the kind that I hope you will allow me to make until I have the chance to make it.
I draw your attention, Sir Edward, to paragraph (3) of Standing Order No. 1, which says:
A Member taking the chair—
that is yourself, Sir Edward—
under the provisions of paragraph (1) of this order shall enjoy all those powers which may be exercised by the Speaker during proceedings…
Therefore you have absolute power, as the Speaker has, to accept an amendment if you choose to do so.
I am not asking you, Sir Edward, to support the proposal, but the House should have the opportunity to do so. There was very wide consultation at a meeting this morning and out of 150 people, only one was opposed to the idea of a ballot. We are a sovereign body, and when the House wishes it can pass an Act though both Houses in a single day and get Royal Assent, and there is no reason why we should not tackle the question now.
The Clerk advises me that the form of words that I should use in making my proposal are as follows:
That notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Election of Speaker), the process of nomination and election shall be as follows:

(a) That nominations for the position of Speaker be opened immediately and be submitted to the Clerk of the House, each one to be supported by a Mover and Seconder and accompanied by a consent form signed by each person nominated.

(b) That Ballot papers be printed immediately containing the names of all the nominated candidates together with the names of the movers and seconders of each.

(c) That each Mover and Seconder be then invited to speak in support in support of their candidate, in alphabetical order by name of that candidate, followed by others who may wish to speak and ending with the candidates themselves also in alphabetical order.

3

(d) That the House then adjourn to allow ballot papers to be issued in the No Lobby and members having marked them with the name of the person for whom they wish to vote, signed with their own names, would then place them in Ballot Boxes in the Aye Lobby.

(e) That the Clerk of the House would act as the Returning Officer for the counting of the Votes and would report the result to the Father of the House showing the votes cast for each candidate and the names of those members who had voted for each.

(f) That the House would proceed to a division to decide which of the two candidates with the largest number of votes would become Speaker.

(g) The successful candidate would then take the Chair as Speaker Elect in the normal way.

I am not suggesting that that is a perfect system—some Members have suggested alternative votes and exhaustive ballots—but it is practical.
I have given the Clerk nomination forms and ballot papers and know that he has prepared them in case the proposal is carried. I hope that you, Sir Edward, will allow the House to decide. The House must have the Speaker it wants and the Speaker must enjoy the authority that he or she needs to do the job that we are about to elect him or her to do.
Mr. David Davis: May I support the point of view put by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn)? This is the most important vote that the House faces in this Parliament, and two arguments have been put against altering the procedure in the way that he suggests. One is that there has been a previous opportunity to do so and that the Procedure Committee has considered that. However, I am quite sure that the Procedure Committee did not consider the possibility of there being 12 candidates and the complexity that we face, so that we now have to make a game theory decision on who we vote for at each point.
The second argument is that we should not change the rules midway through a contest. Probably the House was surprised when Speaker Boothroyd chose to stand down—disappointed, perhaps, as well—but it seems to me that it is more important that the House can choose by a transparent and visibly fair procedure that it supports overwhelmingly rather than stick with an antiquated procedure, which would bring the House into disrepute.
Mr. Paul Marsden: May I support the proposal made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn)? We are about to take a momentous decision and I urge you, Sir Edward, not to go down the route of antiquated precedent but, rather, to abide by what I think is a substantial majority in the House who support your allowing us to have a free, fair, open and democratic ballot.
Mr. Eric Forth: On a point of order, Sir Edward. As someone who does not support this last-minute change to the rules, may I seek your guidance for those of us who are prepared to stick with the existing rules until they are properly changed? I ask you to guide the House as to your thoughts on the sequence in which you propose to put the main proposition and, more important, the amendments. Some indication of that would help those of us who wish to give consideration to the votes that we are about to cast.
Sir Edward Heath: I should like to deal with the point that has just been raised, among others. I quite understand
4
the anxiety that many Members have about the present system. I not only understand but have considerable sympathy with it. On the other hand, I believe that my powers under the Standing Order do not extend to presiding over a debate and a decision on other possible methods of election. In any case, even if I had the authority to act in that way, I believe that we would become very confused if we tried to change the rules in the middle of our proceedings. However, as I am sympathetic to the concern of Members, there may be a way in which I can help without straining the limits of my powers.
It may assist the House if I announce in advance the order in which I shall call Members to propose candidates—that is, the order of all those who have notified me that they wish to take part in the debate. I do so with two provisos. First, if any amendment is carried and the main question as amended thereafter is agreed to, no subsequent amendments can be proposed. Secondly, the list that I am about to read out is not necessarily exhaustive. If no amendment moved by a Member whose name is on the list is carried, other Members may catch my eye to put forward other candidates. Perhaps I may now give the list of those who have notified me already.
I will first call Mr. Snape to move that Mr. Martin do take the Chair. That will be seconded and debated. Thereafter, we may proceed to other candidates. Mr. Winnick is to propose, as an amendment, Sir Alan Haselhurst; Mr. Wigley is to propose, again as an amendment, Mr. Beith; Mr. David Davis is similarly to propose Mrs. Dunwoody; Mr. MacGregor is to propose Sir George Young; Mr. O'Neill is to propose Mr. Menzies Campbell; Mr. Maxton is to propose Dr. David Clark; Mr. Wilkinson is to propose Mr. Nicholas Winterton; Mr. Cann is to propose Mr. McWilliam; Mr. Tom King is to propose Mr. Lord; Mrs. Shephard is to propose Sir Patrick Cormack; and Mr. Martin Bell is to propose Mr. Shepherd. That covers all those who have notified me of their wish to speak.
Mr. Paul Tyler: Notwithstanding the statement that you have just made, Sir Edward, I hope that you recognise that when the procedures of the House do not even reflect the views of its Members, let alone those who send us here, we have a problem.
As the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr. Davis) said, the Procedure Committee examined the question following the previous election of a Speaker in 1992. I was a member of the Procedure Committee. It was then thought inappropriate to examine the issue soon after a large majority had elected the Speaker—the bulk of the House voted in that Division. I put it to you, Sir Edward, that it is always an inappropriate time to do so; it is no more inappropriate today than it was then. Indeed, we all have a collective responsibility for not examining the issue at the time. Even the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn), who spoke in the previous debate, did not raise questions about the procedure.
This time, it is clearly the view of the House that the procedure that we are about to follow is not likely to result in a clear statement. Even if we proceed as you have indicated, Sir Edward, we are likely to leave a sense of dissatisfaction and frustration in the House, whoever is elected. I know that I will not be popular with whoever takes the Chair some time this afternoon—or, perhaps, in the early hours of the morning—but I still believe it is important that we review the procedure.

5
We are fortunate that we are likely to be back in the Chamber electing a Speaker following the dissolution of Parliament in a matter of months, so the appointment is a temporary one. I hope that, during that period, the House will agree that my colleagues on the Select Committee on the Modernisation of the House of Commons should be given a remit to look again at the procedures and make them more democratic.
Mr. Joe AshtonUsually, I support my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn), and I do so on this occasion with one proviso.
We are approaching the season of gunpowder, treason and plot, as always at this time of the year. I estimate that as many as 100 Members of Parliament, including Ministers, cannot be present but ought to be aware of any proposed change to the procedure. I know of at least three Ministers who have had to go abroad on Government business and very much regret that they cannot be present.
There is no proxy vote; there is no pairing system; there is nothing on the Order Paper; and nothing has come from the Whips to say that the change will be made or the debate will be held. There has been no indication other than my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield's rising to his feet. Making such a change would be out of order in any other parliamentary business. Suddenly, the House, ad hoc, says that it is going to debate and vote on the issue. I put it to you, Sir Edward, that that would be out of order. We should carry on and debate any changes later.
Mr. Andrew Tyrie: On a point of order, Sir Edward. I believe that there is almost certainly a majority in the House now in favour of a change in the rules to allow the ballot to go ahead on a fully democratic basis. That being the case, and although you have said that you are not permitted to allow a debate and a vote to take place on the proposal of the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn), we in this House make our own rules: Standing Orders exist only to guide us. Therefore, I should like to move that we set aside Standing Order No. 1 until the House has had an opportunity to arrive at a view and vote on the right hon. Gentleman's proposal.
Sir Edward Heath: I must tell the hon. Gentleman that such a motion requires notice.
Mr. Tam Dalyell: On a point of order, Sir Edward. May I ask you a question of fact? On what basis and by what criteria was the sequence of names decided?
Sir Edward Heath: It was done at my discretion. That has always been the case, but my predecessors have never announced in advance who has been chosen and where they are placed. I was hoping that my doing so would be helpful to the House.
Mrs. Gillian Shephard: On a point of order, Sir Edward. It is indeed helpful for the House to know the order in which you will call the candidates, and it is, of course, open to you to use your discretion. However, the problem with comparing today's procedures with those over which your predecessors presided is that they are not comparable—today, the House faces an unprecedented number of contenders for
6
the speakership. That is why I support the proposal made by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) that, because we face an unprecedented situation, the House itself should control the way in which this extremely important matter is handled.
Mr. Peter L. Pike: On a point of order, Sir Edward. We know that you are in an extremely difficult position, but, on the important issue facing us today, it would be entirely wrong to go ahead on the stated basis when it is quite clear that the majority of the House is not in favour of doing so. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Some Members say no, but let us put it to the test and have a vote on the proposal of my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn).
If you cannot do that, Sir Edward, I put it to you that when the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major), resigned on the lawn of No. 10 Downing street, several points of order were raised and it was ruled from the Chair that it was in order to move, as an emergency resolution, That this House do now adjourn. Would it be possible to move such a motion in the event of your not allowing the House to divide on the proposal of my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield?
Sir Edward Heath: I am sorry, but I am not prepared to accept a dilatory motion; I am sure that the House as a whole does not want that.
Mr. Gordon Prentice: On a point of order, Sir Edward. You control the batting order, which is crucial, and you have read out the names of the candidates and those who are proposing them, but I am none the wiser as to what informed that decision. You say that you have discretion; indeed you do, and that is what is wrong with the system of election. The system we use should be open and transparent, and people here and outside should be able to understand it.
An hour or so ago, we held hustings in Committee Room 10. We carried out a straw poll among the approximately 150 Members present, the result of which was an almost unanimous decision—there was one exception—that there should be a ballot of the candidates. People do not want to elect the new Speaker using a discredited system that would not have been out of place in eastern Europe before the wall came down.
Mr. Peter Bradley: On a point of order, Sir Edward. I suggest that we are confronted with a matter of principle. It is also a matter of democracy. Further, it is a matter that unites Members on both sides of the House. It is important, too, that the people who are looking in on our proceedings—those who send us here—understand and recognise the way in which we comport ourselves in this place, which should conform to their understanding of democracy.
I urge you to accept, Sir Edward, that it cannot be in conformity with the spirit of the Standing Orders that you intend to operate this afternoon that we should elect the champion of Back Benchers and the champion of the House through a system of smoke and mirrors. That person could not expect to command either the respect or authority following such an election. I urge you to think again, Sir Edward, and to bear in mind the fact that almost

7
unanimously those who have spoken this afternoon would urge you to ensure that we have a free, open, democratic and accountable form of election.
Mr. David Wilshire: I would not go as far as the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike) and say that there is a majority either for or against what you have proposed, Sir Edward, or for or against what the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) has proposed. It has become clear to me over the past 20 minutes that the House is deeply divided on the matter. I have no idea where the majority lies, but, given the fact that the House is divided, there is a real risk that unless the House expresses where its majority lies, whatever system we use will undermine the very person that we must not undermine when we come to choose the next Speaker.
Mr. Mike Hancock: I agree with the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire). You tried to be helpful, Sir Edward, by announcing the batting order for the candidates, but, far from being helpful, it will undoubtedly mean that this afternoon's proceedings will cause more of a problem.
Both you, Sir Edward, and the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) have two last duties to perform on behalf of the nation and this Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman has given you the opportunity to listen to what the House is saying and to accept that his proposition is made in the right sense, will result in the right decision and will enable the right person to occupy the Chair. I fear that anything short of that will seriously undermine the credibility of the successful candidate.
There will be many in the House and outside who will not understand why we have come to the decision that we have. The only sensible way forward is to accept the proposition of the right hon. Member for Chesterfield, listen to what the House is saying and at least test whether the right hon. Gentleman, for once, is speaking for the whole House and for the majority of the country.
Mr. Martin Bell: If there were ever a sitting of this place that needed prayers before it, this is surely it. I hope to have an opportunity to propose the name of the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd). As he is 12th in the batting order, I fear that it is unlikely that I shall be able to do so. As we should be a model of democracy, can we not now choose a democratic procedure for the election of Speaker?
Mr. Crispin Blunt: On a point of order, Sir Edward. It strikes me that anyone who comes through the process this afternoon under our current rules will have the support of the House. The problem is that with a plethora of candidates it is extremely likely that we shall arrive at a point when there are no more amendments to be made, and the main motion may be lost. That may be the situation, given the number of candidates. If at that stage it was clear that we could then re-examine the rules, the House could then adjourn. Is that a potential way forward?
Sir Nicholas Lyell: On a point of order, Sir Edward. There is no doubt that the House is master of its own procedure. It is therefore open
8
to you, under Standing Order No. 1, to accept the proposal in the name of the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn). There is plainly a great deal of support for it, even if there is also a good deal of opposition. May I ask you, Sir Edward, to accept the proposal and put it to the test?
Mr. John Butterfill: I am probably unique in that I am the only candidate who has withdrawn. However, that leaves 12 other candidates to be proposed and seconded.
The right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) had the courtesy to telephone to discuss his proposal with me, and I have a great deal of sympathy with it. The only problem that occurs to me—from a dispassionate point of view, as I now have—is that under his proposal, the two leading candidates could, even together, receive only minority support in the House. We might have two significant minority candidates going forward to the final selection. That does not seem a suitable solution, so we may have to consider a system of additional vote, which I would not normally support, but it seems that even the proposition of the right hon. Member for Chesterfield is flawed.
Sir Edward Heath: Some of the complications of the proposed system are now emerging clearly. For us to go over to a new system will take considerable time and a great deal of investigation. What has been proposed so far as a simple solution is not simple at all. On the other hand, providing the names of those who wish to be considered and their proposers and seconders, as I have done, gives the House far more information than it has ever had in the past and provides a foundation for taking decisions today. Therefore, I cannot accept the proposals that have been made from various quarters. We should get on with our business, and I call Mr. Snape to propose Mr. Martin.
2.58 pm
Mr. Peter Snape: I beg to move,
That Mr. Michael J. Martin do take the Chair of this House as Speaker.
All of us present today recognise the importance of the matter before us, even if we cannot agree on the procedures. As elected Members of the House, we recognise the primacy of the occupant of the Chair and the formidable powers that we, by our decisions today, will grant to that person.
Many of us on both sides recognise that the power and status of the House have diminished considerably over the years. That process did not start in 1997 or even in 1974, when I was first elected. It has been going on for many years. All of us are aware of the feeling often expressed by our constituents that we are somehow out of touch and have no real knowledge of society's problem. To refute that premise is one of reasons that I urge colleagues on both sides of the House to support my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin) today, for understanding the problems of poverty and deprivation perhaps comes easier to my hon. Friend than to others.
My hon. Friend was born at the end of the second world war in a Glasgow tenement as one of the five children of a mother who faced life as a single parent after the break-up of the marriage, and following the awful experiences of a father who was three times torpedoed

9
during the second world war. My hon. Friend was an apprentice sheet metal worker before coming to the House, although he says that at the time he would have preferred to be a carpenter. Going to work as he did then, clad in a second-hand boiler suit and a pair of boots, gives him a deep knowledge of some of the problems facing many of our electors and many people in the United Kingdom. Although I am glad that his sartorial awareness has improved since those days, his experiences are not ones that can readily be put aside.
My hon. Friend was elected to the old Glasgow corporation in 1973. It is understandable, given his own experiences, that the provision of decent housing was his major political passion. My hon. Friend helped to form a housing association in the city that is one of the biggest community-based associations in Glasgow today.
Since being elected to the House in 1979, my hon. Friend has served on many of the House's Committees. All hon. Members know that much of the work of those Committees is unreported, unheralded and unobserved by a media obsessed with plots, counter-plots, trivia and tittle-tattle. As Chairman of the Administration Committee in the last Parliament, my hon. Friend knows that the duties and responsibilities of the Chairman lie outside as well as inside the Chamber.
My hon. Friend insisted that proper child care facilities were provided in the building for the many members of our staff who have child care responsibilities. Some hon. Members may believe that that is not the main or even a primary responsibility of the Speaker. [Interruption.] "Hear, hear" say some of the chauvinists opposite. Many Labour Members believe that the provision of proper child care for the staff of the House is no less a responsibility of the Speaker than any other. [Interruption.] Well, Opposition Members need not listen if they do not want to, but they will have to hear me in the end. Thanks largely to my hon. Friend's efforts, the Parliamentary Commissioner approved a voucher scheme to provide child care in the House.
Hon. Members who have come to the House comparatively recently know how confusing it all too often is. Although we talk about training and modernisation, we leave many new Members to find out what goes on for themselves. My hon. Friend's consideration for others, his fairness when occupying the Chair as Deputy Speaker and his willingness to assist us all with advice and guidance have convinced me and many of my colleagues of his attributes.
There has been much press comment on our procedures today. Doubtless there will be even more tomorrow. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) has already given his view of our proceedings. It sometimes seems that no proceedings are complete without a dissenting view from my right hon. Friend. As one of his great admirers for all the years that I have been here, I tell him that he has had almost 50 years as a Member of Parliament to change some of those procedures. I concede that he has been distracted by his membership of many Labour Governments during that time, but it seems that every time a procedural matter arises, my right hon. Friend, albeit adroitly and lucidly, finds some reason for us not to proceed.
The candidature of my hon. Friend the Member for Springburn has not been without criticism from the press, anxious as always to give us their opinions. On Sunday,
10
one distinguished scribe claimed that my hon. Friend, by his action as Chairman of the Administration Committee in banning unaccompanied journalists from the Terrace, had
prevented journalists from buying hon. Members a drink.
If that were true, it would be a very serious matter. My hon. Friend's actions actually prevented them from buying each other drink. He perhaps also inadvertently prevented them from putting the wrong name on their expense accounts when they got back to the office.
My hon. Friend would agree that, while preserving the best of our traditions, we need to modernise some of our procedures. The sight and sound of the occupants of the Chair announcing at 11.30 pm, "the Ayes to the right: 245; the Noes to the left: 3," convinces many people outside that we need our heads examining for behaving in such a manner. Such behaviour does nothing to convince the people of this country that we are a 21st century Administration, and that the House is capable of updating its procedures. No one wishes to stifle debate; indeed, it is usually the only weapon available to Back Benchers. However, we need a Speaker who will confront and change some of our more absurd practices.
My hon. Friend continually demonstrates his even temper, calmness and gentle humour. Occasionally, when hon. Members get carried away, his oft-used phrases, such as "The hon. Gentleman should know better" or even "It's no' nice", have calmed hon. Members, as well as bringing smiles all round. My hon. Friend is held in respect and affection on both sides of the House. His apprenticeship as Deputy Speaker has demonstrated his skill and ability. I commend his candidature to the House.
3.5 pm
Ann Keen: Since my election in 1997, I have always regarded it as an honour to address the House, but today it is even more so, as I rise to second my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin). It is easy for new Members to be over-awed by the House, and I am only one of many hon. Members elected at that time who were made to feel more at ease and valued because of my hon. Friend's patience, understanding and, of course, knowledge.
One of the first things that I did when asked to second my hon. Friend's nomination was to read the report of the election that took place in 1992. There are few with greater experience and knowledge of parliamentary procedures than my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn). That has most certainly been demonstrated today. I hope that he does not mind that I shall refer to the contribution that he made at the election of the Speaker in 1992. He said that it was the first task of the new Parliament to elect a Speaker. The disadvantage at that time was that the large number of new Members had not been able to enjoy the experience of judging the contenders' ability for that post.
Today, however, every Member has been able to witness the ability of my hon. Friend the Member for Springburn to calm the House, which frequently needs that ability, and to do so in such a way that helps all Members in difficulty rather than putting them down. He has always shown fairness to those holding different political views. He has also shown his loyalty to Parliament. That is why he has such large support today.

11
In 1992, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield rightly asked for a Speaker who would not only chair proceedings in the Chamber, but look after the interests of the staff who work in the House and on whom we rely so heavily. Many of the staff, in more than one discipline, say that if they could do so they would support my hon. Friend the Member for Springburn. I believe that that is because they know that he respects them. He listens to them and they have confidence in him. My hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape) referred to the introduction of child care vouchers. They are very important, and are appreciated by the staff of the House, but there is much more to do.
Finally, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield said in 1992 that he wanted Parliament to be a workshop, not a museum. I put it to the House that my hon. Friend the Member for Springburn fits that bill completely. He has served an apprenticeship as an engineer, a trade union official and, finally—most certainly—as a Deputy Speaker. He will ensure that the House is efficient. He will ensure that Back Benchers, the Opposition and minority parties are given their deserved rights in this workshop. He will ensure that this workshop is modernised. My hon. Friend has a record of representing the underprivileged. He has always had to work hard for improvement and change, and he will not stop doing so now. I am proud to second his nomination.
3.9 pm
Mr. David Davis: I want to speak to the substantive motion and the principle behind it, rather than the amendment, which I shall deal with later if necessary.
I am sure that all the candidates would be impartial and totally fair in exercising their duties, but impartiality is not enough in the Speaker that we seek today. The powers of the House are widely considered to be in decline. That perception is real; history and politics have ensured that the House's powers are in decline. That decline must be arrested and reversed. That is the task of the person we elect today.
The balance of power between Parliament and the Executive has tipped against this House even more in recent years than the long-term trend would indicate. There is also a disparity of power between Front-Bench Members and Back-Bench Members of the House. Putting that disparity right is also a task of the Speaker whom we elect today.
The bypassing of Parliament is well understood. Ministers go to television studios or on the "Today" programme and announce matters before they appear before the House. A Speaker can do something about that. Private notice questions, applications under Standing Order No. 24, and the right of individuals to raise questions that could be debated in emergency by the House are all matters with which the Speaker can and should deal.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: What, even when the Tory Government were in power?
Mr. Davis: I shall shortly give way to the pensioner from Bolsover.
12
The disparity of power between Members on the Front Benches and those on the Back Benches has been very apparent in past years. Decisions are made on the timetabling of the business of the House. Many believe, with reason, that timetabling is a reasonable approach to the business of the House. This is just about the only House in the western world where such timetabling is done not by the Speaker but by the Executive. That practice has long been wrong—it was wrong under a Tory Government, just as it is under a Labour Government.
Many aspects of recent legislation have changed the rights of our citizens—the right to trial by jury, the right to freedom of information and to a number of other matters, including a passport. Those issues should be decided by the House, and a future Speaker should take that matter in hand.
My point is simple and short. I have said already that our candidates will all be fair, but they should also have strength, independence, integrity and a passionate commitment to the House of Commons. That is what we need from any candidate whom we elect today.
3.12 pm
Mr. Tony Benn: I shall continue the theme that the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr. Davis) has introduced. This will be one of my last speeches in the House of Commons before I go into politics and, if I may, I want to put to the House my fears for this place. I do not attribute them to any one Government or any one Prime Minister, and I do not want that to be misunderstood.
The people who elect us to Parliament ask us certain questions. They ask, "When we go to war, do you have a say in it?" and the answer is that we do not. We were not consulted, in terms of a vote, about the bombing in Iraq or Kosovo—[Interruption.] No, statements were made. There was also Sierra Leone. That is a royal prerogative. We could not even start electing a Speaker without instructions from the Queen, so the royal prerogative is very strong.
Then we come to the laws made in Brussels. I have been on the Council of Ministers, and was its President once. When Ministers go to Brussels and agree to laws in secret, they repeal the laws that we have made and we have no say, either before the Minister goes or when he comes back.
Patronage is on a massive scale. Every Prime Minister has done it—almost 1,000 peers have been made by Prime Ministers since the war. There is no consultation with the House of Commons about the patronage exercised by the Prime Minister of the day. We must face the fact that we are, to a large extent, an impotent House of Commons. I can give a practical example of that. We have been in recess since July, and during that time there has been a fuel crisis, a Danish no vote, the collapse of the euro and a war in the middle east, but what is our business tomorrow? The Insolvency Bill [Lords]. It ought to be called the Bankruptcy Bill [Commons], because we play no role.
I am very concerned because many young people believe that this is an impotent Parliament. They go on the streets in Prague or Seattle rather than come to the Palace of Westminster, because we do not do the job that we were elected to do. We have a president, and we do not have a House of Representatives.

13
I fear that, in the world in which we live—I lay no blame at anyone's door, because that is not my purpose, certainly not during this period of my political life—globalisation means that multinational companies have much more power than countries. Ford is bigger than South Africa; Toyota is bigger than Norway. When I went to America last year to celebrate my golden wedding anniversary, I met an old Governor of Ohio, who said "You will never have democracy when big business buys both parties and expects a pay-off, whoever wins."
I believe that it is our job to reverse that. It is for the Commons to decide. Whoever becomes Speaker—I think all the candidates have qualities that they would bring to the job—we must use this period, that of the first Parliament of the 21st century, to restore the power of the people who elected us. We must not be content to be managed and to become a sort of audience, as if we were on the BBC's "Question Time".
For that reason, I hope that some part of the debate will go beyond the personal qualities of which we have heard from proposers and seconders, to the whole central question of whether the House of Commons can survive if it allows itself to be powerless in the face of the really big decisions that will influence the future of this country.
3.16 pm
Mr. Andrew Rowe: I had not intended to speak, but I think that a mistake is creeping into the debate: a sense that, somehow, the future of the House depends either on the attitude of the Government or on the qualities of the Speaker. In fact, what the House's future depends on is the quality of Back Benchers. Because both—or all—the major parties are trying to tighten their control over the selection of candidates and the way in which they are preferred, and seeking above all this mythical quality of loyalty, individual Back Benchers are ceasing to feel able to say and do what they want.
I am a fine one to talk. I have been far too loyal to my party for far too long. As my impending retirement approached, however, I realised rather too late how much power an individual Back Bencher, or a group of individual Back Benchers, can exercise when using this place as it could be used. I regret that it took me so long to realise that, but I am a slow learner.
We must not fool ourselves into thinking that the future of the House depends either on some magic Zebedee of a Speaker leaping in to solve all its problems, or on some change of heart on the part of Governments, who will always try to control the House of Commons. What we need is a much clearer perception of what Back Benchers can and ought to achieve, and the fact that their prime loyalty is to their constituency associations and not to their parties.
Sir Edward Heath: The hon. Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin) has been proposed and seconded. I now give him the opportunity to submit himself to the House.
3.18 pm
Mr. Michael J. Martin: I submit myself to the House, and welcome you to the Chair, Sir Edward. Certainly, every time you are in the Chair you achieve a better turnout than any of the Deputy Speakers.
14
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape) for his kindness, and also for his friendship during the 21 years for which I have been a Member of Parliament. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ann Keen) for her kind words. When it became clear that a Speaker was required, she was a very staunch supporter.
I pay tribute to Speaker Betty Boothroyd. Betty's advice was, "Be firm, especially with the senior Members. Don't let them pressurise you and try to pull rank", but the thing that I remember her for is that, every day at conferences, her concern was always about the House. She always put the House of Commons first. I wish her every success.
As hon. Members know, the last election brought in many new Members on both sides of the House. I felt a deep obligation to give assistance and help to those new Members, regardless of the party that they came from. I feel that I carried out that duty to the full. I do not think that I could be criticised for denying anyone any help or assistance, either from the Chair or in the Tea Room. I would like to be remembered as a Deputy Speaker who was always fair and helpful.
My apprenticeship has been one of serving the House as a Chairman of Standing Committees, the Administration Committee and the Scottish Grand Committee. I have never sought to be a Whip, a Front-Bench spokesman or a Minister.
Mr. Dennis Canavan: Quite right.
Mr. Martin: Come to think of it, no one ever invited me to take those posts. I have enjoyed defending the rights of the House.
Modernisation has been talked about a lot in the current Parliament. I will match the hours that any hon. Member keeps in the House because, when hon. Members leave, the Deputy Speakers still have half an hour of Adjournment debate to go, but I am not proud of the fact that, when we go to New Palace yard, men and women who work for us in this building go to their homes and many of them as parents know that their sleep will be broken because they have to get their children out to school. Whenever we talk about hours, we must always consider the staff who work for us so well in the House.
There are new proposals from the Administration Committee to look at creche facilities. The Modernisation and Procedure Committees are looking at our voting system. Back Benchers should fight for these changes. I as Speaker will never interfere with those matters. I give the assurance that I will embrace the democratic decisions of the House. Change for the sake of change is no way in which to conduct our affairs, but, by the same token, to oppose change for the sake of tradition is equally wrong.
A Speaker has a clear duty to every section of the House, especially to Back Benchers, the minority parties and the Opposition parties. The House must hold the Executive to account. I am firmly of the view that the Speaker's duty is to serve the House, not the Executive power.
It says much for the House—and, indeed, for the political system to which we all belong—that someone from the poverty of Glasgow can stand before you seeking the great office of Speaker. My origins should be no reason for me being elected; nor should they be a reason to debar me. I submit myself to the House.
3.24pm
Mr. David Winnick: I beg to move, as an amendment to the Question, to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Sir Alan Haselhurst".
Let me make it clear that I do not disagree with a single word that was said about my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin); moreover, I, like the rest of the House, listened with much interest to what he said. My hon. Friend and I have known each other for 21 years, and I hope that our friendship will not be broken by the fact that I am not supporting him today. There is only one vacancy: no one—not even my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn)—is suggesting that there should be a job share.
I do not wish to argue about whether we should continue the practice of the past 30 years of ensuring that the new Speaker is from a different party from that of the previous one. Although I realise that that practice dates back only 30 years and not to ancient times, I simply say to my right. hon. and hon. Friends that we should perhaps bear it in mind.
Why am I nominating the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir A. Haselhurst)? As hon. Members will know, he was first elected as an hon. Member in 1970. Although he lost his seat at the 1974 general election, he returned to the House faster than some of us retreads, being returned for Saffron Walden in 1977. I have seen in some press reports comments by one or two hon. Members suggesting that the right hon. Gentleman has been too strict an occupant of the Chair. Conversely, one leader—I think that it was in today's edition of The Independent—said that he had occasionally not shown sufficient force in that role. Although hon. Members can make their own judgment on the point, I believe that, occasionally, the occupant of the Chair has to show some strictness—and I say that as one who has occasionally been the subject of that strictness.
What basic qualities are required of a Speaker? I agree with the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe) that decisions on the House and its future are not for the Speaker, but for hon. Members, and that it is for the House to decide our practices and policies. Therefore, we should not take the view that it is the occupant of the Chair who will decide how we conduct our business.
The first and foremost quality for a Speaker—hon. Members have said it before, but it should be said again—is absolute impartiality when occupying the Chair. At the same time, the Speaker must be in full control, even at times when the House is in a very bad mood, as sometimes happens. The Speaker must also be able to understand the changing mood of the House.
The Speaker must also defend the rights of Back Benchers. Although that point has been made many times before, I make it again because it is important. The Executive—whether this one or a previous one—are strong, and, as hon. Members know, the Executive can largely control the business of the House. Back Benchers need to be defended, and I hope that whoever occupies the Chair in this place will do just that.
Hon. Members can decide for themselves whether it is a virtue for a Speaker not to have held ministerial office. My hon. Friend the Member for Springburn said that he has not held such office. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden, too, has not held such office. Hon.
16
Members can decide for themselves whether such a person is better able to appreciate the difficulties and frustrations of Back Benchers than is someone who has held such office.
The Speaker is also our ambassador and representative at parliamentary gatherings overseas, and on other, similar occasions.
I believe that we need a Speaker who respects the history and traditions of this place. I am not one of those who believes that we can say that the House's traditions are not important and cast them aside. At the same time, however, we need a Speaker who appreciates the need for change. In the past few weeks, we have had many lectures from the media on that subject and on our business. Although the media never take the opportunity to lecture themselves, they have been lecturing us on all our weaknesses and blemishes. We should never forget, however, that the importance of this place cannot be underestimated, and that, if it did not exist, all our freedoms would not last for five minutes.
Finally, it has been suggested that the House of Commons requires a figure of glamour—someone with tremendous charisma. I have looked back at previous Speakers over the past 30 years. Betty Boothroyd is indeed a hard act to follow: she was an outstanding Speaker. However, if I were asked who were the other two best Speakers in the past 30 years—who best defended the right of Back Benchers and showed the greatest impartiality between Back Benchers and the Executive—my reply would be Selwyn Lloyd and Lord Weatherill. Before they were elected, would the press have said that Selwyn Lloyd and Lord Weatherill were glamorous figures of great charisma? Probably not. They would have been written off, like a number of today's nominees. Yet in the Chair, they demonstrated impartiality. Moreover, like Betty Boothroyd—and this is not to criticise any of the other Speakers of the past 30 years—Selwyn Lloyd and Lord Weatherill showed how to defend the House of Commons from the Speaker's Chair.
It is my view that the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden is in the same tradition. He has all the necessary qualities as Speaker, and I believe that he would serve the House without fear or favour. I therefore have much pleasure in putting his name before the House for consideration as Speaker.
Sir Edward Heath: Mr. Peter Brooke to second.
3.31 pm
Mr. Peter Brooke: You, Sir Edward, will be pleased to hear that the last time I followed the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) in this Chamber, it was on Second Reading of an ageism Bill. It is an equal pleasure to follow the hon. Gentleman's eloquence today.
There is a sentence in "The Wrong Box" by Robert Louis Stevenson, to the effect that "it was a bottle of the worst whisky in Hampshire"—and only those familiar with that county could recognise the full force of that superlative. Whatever our opinions, this election is the greatest event to occur in this constituency today—and only those familiar with this constituency can recognise the full force of that superlative.
The speakership of this great House is the greatest gift this House can bestow on any Member. Many are called, yet few are chosen. Yet so great a gift is it that to be

17
runner-up in this contest is a greater privilege than to be the Speaker of 100 other legislatures. Because it is so great a gift, it is a serious business on which we are engaged.
I read in the public prints that the principle of the office passing evenly from party to party is now enshrined in our constitution. If it is, it clearly stands to the advantage of my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir A. Haselhurst). However, if the principle had been so enshrined eight years ago, I wonder why we held an election then. Surely no one would wish to sit as Speaker in this House unless they were the best man or woman to do so, which, over the past eight years, Speaker Boothroyd pre-eminently turned out to be.
So it is by the test of excellence and appositeness that our candidates must be measured, not by the more usual coinage of party label. By these nobler tests, my right hon. Friend starts with the considerable advantage of having been already long tested in the Chair. The opportunity afforded to us by Speaker Boothroyd of holding this election in this Parliament was specifically intended for an informed electorate to use its knowledge of already familiar candidates. Unlike that moment in 1972 when The Wall Street Journal reported that the recession was now so bad that the Mafia had had to lay off two judges in New Jersey, a deputy speakership of this House is no sinecure.
Because I have been taking a controversial private Bill through the House, I can testify that my right hon. Friend yields to no prior holder of his office in upholding by a robust and upstanding firmness the principle of the rules of order and the embargo on repetition. Yet I can also testify that he strains the cricketing principle of the benefit of the doubt to the extremities of scepticism before he intervenes on a fellow Back Bencher. He owes those qualities to his long Back-Bench experience and, appropriately, to his enjoyment of the confidence of colleagues who retained him as secretary of the all-party cricket group, even after his ascent to the Deputy Speaker's Chair.
My right hon. Friend and I share the coincidence of having been elected to the House in 1977 for our present seats, in seats in which there had also been by-elections in 1965, although my right hon. Friend had also served in the 1970 Parliament, when you, Sir Edward, were Prime Minister.
When we choose a Chairman of Ways and Means, beyond the acceptability of the candidate must lie the desirability of that candidate's being a foil to the Speaker. Not for nothing did our last two Speakers proceed to the Chair from a deputy's role. In all human affairs, there is virtue in a successor's not being a precise simulacrum of the predecessor whom he or she follows. In such variety do institutions breathe, live and grow. To borrow an analogy from cricket, our most recent Speaker was, mutatis mutandis, an Ian Botham—colourful, and an all-rounder with a perpetual capacity to surprise. My right hon. Friend, however, is a Leonard Hutton—neat, tidy, solid, classical and a central figure of immense reliability.
We must come to the point of making up our own minds. When Professor Joad—as he then was not—sat his scholarship exam at Oxford, he was asked to write for three hours on the question, "Can a good man be happy on the rack?". He wrote a single sentence in a minute and a half: "If he were a very good man and it were a very
18
bad rack, yes; if not, no." The rack, which, like the inventions of the White Knight in Alice, is of our own devising, is, for that reason, a very good rack, to which my right hon. Friend has volunteered to subject himself. Like Joad's character, he is a very good man indeed. Most important of all, he is his own man, and I am delighted to second his nomination.
Sir Edward Heath: Sir Alan Haselhurst has been proposed and seconded, so I give him the opportunity to submit himself to the House.
3.37 pm
Sir Alan Haselhurst: I last spoke in the House on 29 October 1996, so I hope that hon. Members will recognise that I may be a little rusty. I could not then have imagined that my next speech would be made in these circumstances. I feel obliged to acknowledge the endless uncertainties of political life, which conspired to make me the 63rd Chairman of Ways and Means. That wholly unexpected elevation brought me for the first time into regular contact with Speaker Boothroyd. In the previous Parliament, judging from afar, I had never had cause to doubt her qualities in the Chair, but having gained the privilege of seeing her conduct of the office of Speaker close at hand, I soon became aware of the diligent and conscientious way in which she approached her many duties. The love that Speaker Boothroyd expressed for the House when she accepted nomination eight years ago was always evident in our working meetings. She coupled it with intuitive human insight and lashings of good sense. Betty Boothroyd was a huge personality, and a great Speaker.
Hon. Members often come to the Chamber with speeches in our hands that we may never have the chance to deliver. That feeling has been hovering around me—and, I suspect, others—today. I have always found speaking in the House an extremely daunting experience, because I respect this place above all as the most formidable of democratic debating chambers. I bow to the experience and knowledge that the hon. Members around me collectively represent.
I have, however, never had any doubt about wanting to be part of this place. It was a tremendous moment for me when, in the early hours of June 1970, with my parents present, I was declared to be the Member for Middleton and Prestwich—towns now represented respectively by the hon. Members for Heywood and Middleton (Mr. Dobbin) and for Bury, South (Mr. Lewis). I have to say, however—with no disrespect to the people who gave me my first chance in public life, and for whom I have the greatest affection—that what I felt then could not match the emotion and thrill I felt on being returned for Saffron Walden, because by then I had knowledge of what this House was all about, what it meant to me and how important a place I believed it to be.
Thus, Sir Edward, in 1977 I was able to resume my meteoric career on the Back Benches. Never privileged with nor burdened by office, I have had plenty of opportunity to observe and understand the frustrations and constraints of Back-Bench life. I have always been restless to see improvements in the support given to Back Benchers. The power of the Executive has grown and grown, while the capacity of the legislature to check it has not increased commensurately. Arguably, it

19
has diminished. The constituency work load has become steadily more demanding. More and more Members have found it difficult to cope while spending a proper amount of their time undertaking the scrutiny process.
There is another factor: that is family life. When I was originally elected, I was a bachelor. In my first Parliament, I revelled in being here all hours. By 1982, when I had three small children, I took rather a different view and was not always the first to be looking for overtime. I firmly believe that those are issues that the House must address, if only to demonstrate to the public that we are doing an effective job on their behalf and that this is the place—above all others—where their interests will be served.
However, it is for the House as a whole to determine the way in which it wishes to go forward. It is not easy to find a prescription that unites us all—and certainly not one that an individual Speaker can impose. The Speaker should seek only to be a guide—perhaps a catalyst. The Speaker can, however, be a conductor and try to ensure that the pace of our proceedings is more lively, to maximise opportunities for Back Benchers.
So I present myself to the House, Sir Edward, as a moderate moderniser, hopefully gauging the mood of the House and anxious to work with the grain of reform and renewal; as someone who passionately believes that debate and argument over the affairs of this nation must be joined pre-eminently here and not elsewhere; and, I hope, as a convinced champion of individual and minority interests in this House.
I am most grateful to the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Brooke) for their willingness to put forward my name and for their generous remarks.
In the 1970 Parliament, I shared with Harold Wilson the distinction that we were the only two Yorkshiremen to represent Lancashire seats. It is asking much, I know, for the House to contemplate two Yorkshire-born Speakers in a row, so it is perhaps in the guise of Essex man that I should, in accordance with ancient custom, submit myself to the will of the House. If chosen, I will serve it faithfully and with resolution.
Sir Edward Heath: The original Question was, "That Mr. Michael J. Martin do take the Chair of this House as Speaker", since when an amendment has been proposed to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert "Sir Alan Haselhurst".
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 140, Noes 345.

Division No. 299]

[3.44 pm

AYES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

Boswell, Tim

Allen, Graham

Bradshaw, Ben

Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James

Brady, Graham

Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

Brinton, Mrs Helen

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Bennett, Andrew F

Burstow, Paul

Betts, Clive

Campbell—Savours, Dale

Body, Sir Richard

Cawsey, Ian

20

Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

McIntosh, Miss Anne

Chope, Christopher

McLoughlin, Patrick

Clappison, James

Major, Rt Hon John

Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh)

Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

Cohen, Harry

Mates, Michael

Cohen, Harry

Maude, Rt Hon Francis

Collins, Tim

May, Mrs Theresa

Cran, James

Miller, Andrew

Cunningham, Ms Roseanna (Perth)

Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)

Curry, Rt Hon David

Morley, Elliot

Davies, Quentin (Grantham)

Moss, Malcolm

Day, Stephen

O'Hara, Eddie

Donaldson, Jeffrey

Page, Richard

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Paice, James

Faber, David

Pearson, Ian

Fallon, Michael

Pickles, Eric

Fraser, Christopher

Pollard, Kerry

Gale, Roger

Pope, Greg

Gapes, Mike

Portillo, Rt Hon Michael

Gardiner, Barry

Prior, David

Garnier, Edward

Randall, John

Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

Robathan, Andrew

Gorman, Mrs Teresa

Robertson, Laurence

Gray, James

Robinson. Peter (Belfast E)

Green, Damian

Ross, William (E Lond'y)

Greenway, John

Russell, Bob (Colchester)

Grieve, Dominic

St Aubyn, Nick

Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)

Grogan John

Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

Hague, Rt Hon William

Spelman, Mrs Caroline

Haselhurst, Rt Hon Sir Alan

Spicer, Sir Michael

Hayes John

Spring, Richard

Heald, Oliver

Steen, Anthony

Healey John

Stinchcombe, Paul

Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)

Streeter, Gary

Heathcoat—Amory, Rt Hon David

Swayne, Desmond

Hewitt, Ms Patricia

Syms, Robert

Hill Keith

Tapsell, Sir Peter

Hoey, Kate

Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)

Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

Taylor, Rt Hon John D (Strangford)

Hoyle, Lindsay

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Hurst, Alan

Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

Jack, Rt Hon Michael

Thompson, William

Jamieson, David

Tipping, Paddy

Jenkin, Bernard

Trend, Michael

Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)

Trimble. Rt Hon David

Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

Kidney, David

Viggers, Peter

King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

Walker, Cecil

Ladyman, Dr Stephen

Walter, Robert

Laing, Mrs Eleanor

Wardle, Charles

Laff, Mrs Jacqui

Waterson, Nigel

Lansley, Andrew

Webb, Steve

Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)

Wells, Bowen

Lidington, David

Whitney, Sir Raymond

Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)

Whittingdale, John

Llwyd, Elfyn

Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann

Loughton, Tim

Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd

Luff, Peter

Winnick, David

Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

Tellers for the Ayes:

McCartney, Robert (N Down)

Mr. Peter Snape and

Ann Keen.

NOES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Baker, Norman

Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)

Banks, Tony

Ainger, Nick

Barnes, Harry

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'tty NE)

Barron, Kevin

Alexander, Douglas

Beard, Nigel

Allan, Richard

Begg, Miss Anne

Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)

Bell, Martin (Talton)

Ashton, Joe

Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)

Atkins, Charlotte

Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)

21

Benton, Joe

Dean, Mrs Janet

Bercow, John

Denham, John

Bermingham, Gerald

Dismore, Andrew

Berry, Roger

Dobbin, Jim

Best, Harold

Dobson, Rt Hon Frank

Blackman, Liz

Donohoe, Brian H

Blears, Ms Hazel

Doran, Frank

Blizzard, Bob

Dowd, Jim

Boateng, Rt Hon Paul

Drew, David

Borrow, David

Drown, Ms Julia

Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

Bradley, Keith (Withington)

Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

Bradshaw, Ben

Efford, Clive

Brake, Tom

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)

Ennis, Jeff

Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

Etherington, Bill

Browne, Desmond

Fearn, Ronnie

Buck Ms Karen

Field, Rt Hon Frank

Burden, Richard

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Burgon, Colin

Fitzsimons, Mrs Loma

Butler, Mrs Christine

Flint, Caroline

Byers, Rt Hon Stephen

Flynn, Paul

Cable, Dr Vincent

Follett, Barbara

Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Foster, Michael J (Worcester)

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Galbraith, Sam

Canavan, Dennis

Galloway, George

Cann, Jamie

George, Andrew (St Ives)

Casale, Roger

George, Bruce (Walsall S)

Caton, Martin

Gerrard, Neil

Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

Gibson, Dr Ian

Chaytor, David

Gilroy, Mrs Linda

Chisholm, Malcolm

Goggins, Paul

Clapham, Michael

Golding, Mrs Llin

Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

Graham, Thomas

Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)

Grocott, Bruce

Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

Hain, Peter

Clwyd, Ann

Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

Coaker, Vernon

Hall. Patrick (Bedford)

Coffey, Ms Ann

Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

Coleman, Iain

Hancock, Mike

Colman, Tony

Hanson, David

Connarty, Michael

Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Harris. Dr Evan

Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

Cooper, Yvette

Henderson. Doug (Newcastle N)

Corbett, Robin

Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

Corbyn, Jeremy

Hepburn, Stephen

Corston, Jean

Heppell, John

Cotter, Brian

Hodge, Ms Margaret

Cousins Jim

Home Robertson, John

Cox Tom

Hood, Jimmy

Crausby, David

Hope, Phil

Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)

Hopkins, Kelvin

Cryer, John (Homchurch)

Howarth, Alan (Newport E)

Cummings , John

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack (Copeland)

Howells, Dr Kim

Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)

Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)

Curtis—Thomas, Mrs Claire

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

Dalyell, Tam

Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

Darling, Rt Hon Alistair

Humble, Mrs Joan

Darvill, Keith

Hume, John

Davey, Edward (Kingston)

Hutton, John

Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

Iddon, Dr Brian

Davidson, Ian

Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Jenkins, Brian

Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

Johnson, Miss Melanie(Welwyn Hatfield)

Davies, Rt Hon Ron (Caerphilly)

Johnson Smith,

Davis, Rt Hon Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Dawson, Hilton

Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)

Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)

Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

22

Jones, leuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)

Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

Jones, Ms Jenny (Wolverh'ton SW)

Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

Naysmith, Dr Doug

Jones. Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)

O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

Jones, Marlyn (Clwyd S)

O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

Keeble, Ms Sally

Olner, Bill

Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)

Organ, Mrs Diana

Kelly, Ms Ruth

Osbome, Ms Sandra

Kemp, Fraser

Palmer, Dr Nick

Khabra, Piara S

Perham, Ms Linda

Kilfoyle, Peter

Pickthall, Colin

King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

Pike, Peter L

Kingham, Ms Tess

Plaskitt, James

Kirkwood, Archy

Pond, Chris

Kumar, Dr Ashok

Pound, Stephen

Lammy, David

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Laxton, Bob

Prescott, Rt Hon John

Leigh, Edward

Prosser, Gwyn

Lepper, David

Quinn, Lawrie

Levitt, Tom

Rapson, Syd

Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

Raynsford, Nick

Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)

Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen

Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)

Linton, Martin

Roche, Mrs Barbara

Livingstone, Ken

Rogers, Allan

Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff

Lock, David

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Love, Andrew

Rowlands, Ted

McAllion, John

Roy, Frank

McAvoy, Thomas

Ruane, Chris

McCabe, Steve

Ruddock, Joan

McCafferty, Ms Chris

Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)

McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)

Ryan, Ms Joan

McDonagh, Siobhain

Salmond, Alex

Macdonald, Calum

Salter, Martin

McDonnell, John

Sanders, Adrian

McFall, John

Sarwar, Mohammad

McGrady, Eddie

Savidge, Malcolm

McGuire, Mrs Anne

Sawford, Phil

McIsaac, Shona

Shaw, Jonathan

McKenna, Mrs Rosemary

Sheerman, Barry

Mackinlay, Andrew

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

McLeish, Henry

Shipley, Ms Debra

MacIennan, Rt Hon Robert

Short, Rt Hon Clare

McNamara, Kevin

Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

McNulty, Tony

Skinner, Dennis

MacShane, Denis

Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

Mactaggart, Fiona

Smith, Angela (Basildon)

McWalter, Tony

Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)

McWilliam, John

Smith, Miss Geraldine

Mahon, Mrs Alice

(Morecambe & Lunesdale)

Mallaber, Judy

Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

Mandelson, Rt Hon Peter

Smith, John (Glamorgan)

Marek, Dr John

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)

Martlew, Eric

Southworth, Ms Helen

Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian

Spellar, John

Maxton, John

Squire, Ms Rachel

Meale, Alan

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

Merron, Gillian

Starkey, Dr Phyllis

Michael, Rt Hon Alan

Steinberg, Gerry

Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)

Stevenson, George

Milburn, Rt Hon Alan

Stewart, David (Inverness E)

Mitchell, Austin

Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

Moffatt, Laura

Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin

Moonie, Dr Lewis

Straw, Rt Hon Jack

Moran, Ms Margaret

Stuart, Ms Gisela

Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)

Sutcliffe, Gerry

Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)

Swinney, John

Mountford, Kali

Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Mudie, George

Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)

Mullin, Chris

Taylor, David (NW Leics)

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

23

Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Timms, Stephen

Wicks, Malcolm

Todd, Mark

Wilkinson, John

Touhig, Don

Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

Trickett, Jon

Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)

Truswell, Paul

Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)

Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

Wilson, Brian

Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)

Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

Turner, Neil (Wigan)

Woodward, Shaun

Twigg, Derek (Halton)

Woolas, Phil

Tynan, Bill

Worthington, Tony

Tyrie, Andrew

Wray, James

Vaz, Keith

Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

Vis, Dr Rudi

Wright, Tony (Cannock)

Walley, Ms Joan

Wyatt, Derek

Ward, Ms Claire

Tellers for the Noes:

Watts, David

Sir David Madel and

Welsh, Andrew

Mr. Bill Rammell.

White, Brian

Question accordingly negatived.
3.56 pm
Mr. Dafydd Wigley: I beg to move, as an amendment to the Question, to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Mr. Alan Beith".
I crave the House's indulgence in allowing someone who once broke the Speaker's Chair to nominate someone to occupy it. It is a reflection on the House that those of us who entered as revolutionaries are in danger of departing as mere reformers. I also hope that the House will see that the fact that I shall stand down at the coming election does not detract at all from the idea that I should propose a Speaker, but adds weight to the nomination, because I cannot be said to stand to gain in any shape or form if the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) is successful.
I have an excellent perspective from which to commend the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed. I have sat behind him on this Bench—as he has sat in front of me—for the last 26 years. In that length of time, one overhears quite a few conversations, and I can say quite honestly that I have never heard the right hon. Gentleman say anything malicious about any Member in any part of the House.
Equally, I have a certain insight. Mind you, Sir Edward, the process of overhearing works in two ways. When I was a young Member and new in the House, I said to my colleague Dafydd Elis-Thomas—now a Member of the other House—something less than complimentary about the then leader of the Liberal party, Jeremy Thorpe. It was quite a shock for me when the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed very gently chided me—in perfect Welsh.
In fact, I have a choice today between supporting a Welsh-speaking non-Welsh Speaker, the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, and a non-Welsh speaking Welsh Speaker. the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody)—among many other non-Welsh possibilities.
I advocate the election of the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed for three reasons, which I am sure that he, as a lay preacher, will appreciate—and none of them is to do with the Welsh language. First, I believe that, as part of the checks and balances in this House, the speakership should move around the House and not just be shared between the two largest parties.
24
It was my belief in such checks and balances that led me last week to support as Deputy Presiding Officer in the National Assembly for Wales our Labour colleague, the hon. Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek). I have no doubt that Labour Members in this Chamber will recognise the merit of having a Speaker from the other side of the Chamber, and if they do not do so now, they may see the benefit in future. It is certainly valuable to have such checks and balances, so that not everything goes in one political direction.
I further believe that Members from the smaller parties should not automatically be ruled out for our most senior appointment if they are worthy candidates. In the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed we have such a candidate.
My second reason for proposing the right hon. Gentleman is his experience, which equips him to do the job. He has been a Member of the House since 1973, and represents a constituency in north-east England, so he is aware of the challenges that face so many Members whose constituencies are well away from the home counties. He has 20 years' experience on the House of Commons Commission, and as a reformer, he has successfully fought for the principle that the House, not the Government of the day, should run the buildings in which we work.
In that capacity, the right hon. Gentleman helped, in the face of Treasury opposition, to secure the allowance that provides pensions for Members' secretaries and researchers. We need a Speaker who takes the side of the House against the Executive, whichever party is in power. The right hon. Gentleman has fought to make this a more family friendly House, supporting the provision of a creche and a child care allowance, and advocating sensible working hours. In that capacity, he has developed good working relations with Members from all parties, which is a prerequisite for being Speaker.
The right hon. Gentleman was, of course, a candidate for his party's leadership, and the very characteristics that may have detracted from that candidature may equip him to be an effective Speaker. He is a patient person, he has a balanced view, he can see both sides of an argument, and he can dispassionately form a considered judgment. Those are not necessarily the main attributes necessary for a party leader, but they are essential qualities for the Speaker of the House.
Thirdly, I propose the right hon. Gentleman on account of his strength of character and personality, which equip him to do an outstanding job. He is transparently fair, and that is essential for any Speaker. His strength of character grows out of his deeply held personal convictions, and that is a strength that any Speaker needs to withstand the pressures of the Executive, of vested interest, and, indeed, of political colleagues. The right hon. Gentleman has the deep, quiet strength to do the job.
May I also refer to the strength and dignity that the right hon. Gentleman showed when he suffered two tragic bereavements, in which he had the sympathy of the whole House. He ably demonstrated at that time that he could ride the storms of life and still carry the responsibilities of office. He also has respect for this institution, while not being blind to its shortcomings. He is a reformer at a time when reform must surely be high on our agenda.
Finally, as I am the retiring Member for Caernarfon, a seat held by David Lloyd George for 53 years, it gives me great pleasure to propose that we elect a Liberal—

25
well, at least, a Liberal Democrat—as Speaker. My grandmother, who was for 13 years president of Pwllheli Liberal association, would be smiling from her grave. I have not had a political change of heart, but I hope that we all recognise a good person when we see one, and I urge fellow Members to elect the right hon. Gentleman as a worthy Speaker of the House.
4.4 pm
Jackie Ballard: It is my privilege and pleasure to second the nomination of my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith). As Members have heard, he has been a Member of this place since 1973, which is long enough to know the institution. He is a natural parliamentarian and has become part of the institution, but he has not become institutionalised, and as someone who still thinks of herself as something of a revolutionary, I think that that is particularly important.
In this media and image-conscious age, sometimes the image and the person do not match, but my right hon. Friend's image is one of reliability, of being a safe pair of hands, of loyalty and of competence. In this case, the man matches the image, but two more qualities should be added to that list: he has a keen sense of humour and a passion for democracy. Both are much needed in the Speaker of this place.
As a Member from the 1997 intake and a Back Bencher, what I hope for most in the Speaker is someone who will defend the rights of Back Benchers and of the House against any overbearing Executive. When I was elected, I appreciated the encouragement and advice of Speaker Boothroyd and I know that my right hon. Friend has the ability and the commitment to give such encouragement and advice to all Back Benchers. As a Liberal, he is used to being independent of mind and of action. That is also essential in a Speaker.
In my view, the House needs not modernisation but something much more radical. The House needs to reform itself, and we can do that with the help of a reforming Speaker. However, we must judge the candidates today not on their verbal commitments to reform, but on their past practical commitment and examples. My right hon. Friend has a track record that will withstand any scrutiny. He was a distinguished member of the House of Commons Commission for many years, but even before that he showed a commitment to the welfare of the staff of this place when he successfully moved an amendment to a Government motion on Members' allowances to create a ring-fenced allowance for pensions for Members' staff.
My right hon. Friend is a fair-minded man, as the right hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) has said. He is an open-minded man and, in my view, admirably suited to the Speaker's Chair. I am proud to support his nomination and hope that he will have the support of all Members of the House.
Sir Edward Heath: Mr. Alan Beith has been proposed and seconded, so I give him the opportunity to submit himself to the House.
4.7 pm
Mr. A. J. Beith: I begin by warmly thanking my kind proposer and seconder and by echoing the tributes to Betty Boothroyd and her
26
speakership. I had the privilege of working with her for about 20 years in various capacities, but particularly in the House of Commons Commission. It is sometimes not recognised what a large, submerged portion of work the Speaker engages in—work that is not apparent when the Speaker takes the Chair. I saw a newspaper report that there was a cushy job going in the House of Commons involving three hours work a day. Well, I can testify from Speaker Boothroyd's hard work—day and evening long—that there is a lot more to it than that, and that much work goes on behind the scenes.
Indeed, in those capacities it was my pleasure often to meet and work with the hon. Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin), whom I count as a friend. I have worked with him for many years, especially when he was Chairman of the Administration Committee and I served on the Commission. We did not always agree, but I have to say that in those days, the Administration and Accommodation and Works Committees were not hotbeds of reform or modernisation. I have a great and warm respect for his personal qualities, so it is rather strange to have entered what seems a little like a fairground boxing ring to contend with him. That is the nature of the procedure: we are proposed in turn, one by one—although I advise Members who want an early tea that the proceedings can be brought to a close quite quickly by electing me. By doing so, they would elect the first Speaker from the Berwick-upon-Tweed constituency since 1656—and he had the benefit of a bit of help from Oliver Cromwell, which is not available today. Indeed, we had our last Liberal Speaker in the 1920s, and he probably had a bit of help from Lloyd George. That is not available, either.
The Speaker is the servant of the House, so all the commitments that we make at hustings, meetings and in the Chamber about reforms that we should like to achieve are subject to a proviso: it is the House that decides. In my experience, there are many roadblocks on the way to reform in the House. It is my hope that the Speaker will not be one of them. The Speaker should enable the House to release its potential to be more effective in the service of our constituents, in the scrutiny of legislation and in holding the Executive to account. Frankly, some of our ways do not assist that. The Speaker who is ready to support the House in seeking to make the procedures more effective would do the nation a service.
We should use time productively and effectively. I express personal views, which any Speaker would have to submit to the House, as the House makes the decisions, but I do not find the notion of very long debates attended by very few Members, which are little regarded outside the House, particularly contributive to effective scrutiny. Such debates are one of the factors that discourage some people from serving in the House, and make it difficult for some to continue to do so. We must not be an exclusive institution.
Although the Speaker is dependent on the will of the House concerning some changes that can be made, Speakers can do other things. There are private notice questions, emergency debates and procedures to stand over debates when the range of opinion has not been properly represented. Some of those have not been used all that often in recent times. There are opportunities for

27
the occupant of the Chair to make use of those procedures to help Back Benchers and to give them the chance to express their concerns. A reforming spirit behind the way in which we use our Standing Orders can do some good.
Whoever wins this election will as their first duty lay public claim to the liberties and freedoms of the House of Commons. There must be some substance to that claim. We are not simply reclaiming the 16th and 17th-century freedoms of the House. We must lay claim to freedoms that make the House effective and enable it to challenge the Executive and legislate well. Some reforms are necessary to that task.
I have been honoured to serve in this House and look forward to continuing to do so. It is an honour and a privilege. I am proud to be a Member—but one can be proud of an institution and still recognise that it needs to change, to make itself more effective and to renew itself. The House is not our property; it is the legislature of the people of the United Kingdom. It is not run for our benefit as Members; it is their institution, in which we should stop regarding them as strangers and recognise them as the people who elect us and whom we are here to serve. I have sought in 27 years to work for parliamentary democracy in this place, and I pledge myself to continue to do so.
Question put, That the amendment be made:
The House divided: Ayes 83, Noes 409.

Division No. 300]

[4.13 pm

AYES

Allan, Richard

Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

Allen, Graham

Hancock, Mike

Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)

Harris, Dr Evan

Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary

Harvey, Nick

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Heath, David (Somerton & Frome,)

Baker, Norman

Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

Ballard, Jackie

Jones, leuan Wyn (Ynys MôM)

Bell, Martin (Talton)

Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)

Brake, Tom

Keetch, Paul

Breed, Colin

Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles

Brinton, Mrs Helen

(Ross Skye & Inverness W)

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

Burden, Richard

King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

Burnett, John

Kirkwood, Archy

Burstow, Paul

Livsey, Richard

Cable, Dr Vincent

Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)

Campbell—Savours, Dale

Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert

Chidgey, David

Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)

Chope, Christopher

Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)

Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)

Mitchell, Austin

Colman, Tony

Moore, Michael

Cotter, Brian

Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)

Cousins, Jim

Mullin, Chris

Cunningham, Ms Roseanna (Perth)

Oaten, Mark

Davey, Edward (Kingston)

Pearson, Ian

Davidson, Ian

Radice, Rt Hon Giles

Denham, John

Rendel, David

Donaldson, Jeffrey

Ross, William (E Lond'y)

Drown, Ms Julia

Russell, Bob (Colchester)

Fearn, Ronnie

Salmond, Alex

Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

Sanders, Adrian

Flynn, Paul

Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)

Foster, Don (Bath)

Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

George, Andrew (St Ives)

Stinchcombe, Paul

Gidley, Sandra

Stunell, Andrew

Gorrie, Donald

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Temple—Morris, Peter

28

Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

Wallace, James

Tipping, Paddy

Webb, Steve

Tonge Dr Jenny

Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann

Trimble, Rt Hon David

Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd

Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

Tellers for the Ayes:

Tyler, Paul

Mr. Lembit Öpik and

Walker, Cecil

Mr. Elfyn Llwyd.

NOES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Clifton—Brown, Geoffrey

Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)

Clwyd, Ann

Ainsworth. Robert (Cov'try NE)

Coaker, Vernon

Alexander, Douglas

Coffey, Ms Ann

Ancram, Rt Hon Michael

Cohen, Harry

Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)

Coleman, Iain

Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James

Collins, Tim

Ashton, Joe

Connarty, Michael

Atkins, Charlotte

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Banks, Tony

Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)

Barnes, Harry

Cooper, Yvette

Barron, Kevin

Corbett, Robin

Beard, Nigel

Corbyn, Jeremy

Begg, Miss Anne

Corston, Jean

Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)

Gran, James

Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)

Crausby, David

Bennett. Andrew F

Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)

Benton, Joe

Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

Bermingham, Gerald

Cummings, John

Berry, Roger

Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack (Copeland)

Best, Harold

Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)

Betts, Clive

Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire

Blackman, Liz

Dalyell, Tam

Blears, Ms Hazel

Darling, Rt Hon Alistair

Blizzard, Bob

Darvill, Keith

Blunt, Crispin

Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

Boateng, Rt Hon Paul

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Borrow, David

Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

Boswell, Tim

Davies, Rt Hon Ron (Caerphilly)

Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

Davis, Rt Hon Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

Bradley, Keith (Withington)

Dawson, Hilton

Bradshaw, Ben

Day, Stephen

Brady, Graham

Dean, Mrs Janet

Brazier, Julian

Dismore, Andrew

Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)

Dobbin, Jim

Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

Dobson, Rt Hon Frank

Browne, Desmond

Donohoe, Brian H

Browning, Mrs Angela

Doran, Frank

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen

Buck, Ms Karen

Dowd, Jim

Burgon, Colin

Drew, David

Butler, Mrs Christine

Duncan Smith, Iain

Byers, Rt Hon Stephen

Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

Campbell. Alan (Tynemouth)

Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

Campbell, Mrs Anne (Cbridge)

Edwards, Huw

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Efford, Clive

Canavan, Dennis

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Cann, Jamie

Ennis, Jeff

Caplin, Ivor

Ethenngton, Bill

Casale, Roger

Evans, Nigel

Cash, William

Fabricant, Michael

Caton, Martin

Field, Rt Hon Frank

Cawsey, Ian

Fisher, Mark

Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Chaytor, David

Flight, Howard

Chisholm, Malcolm

Flint, Caroline

Clapham, Michael

Follett, Barbara

Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)

Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

Foster. Michael J (Worcester)

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Fox, Dr Liam

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Fraser, Christopher

Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)

Gale, Roger

Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

Galloway, George

Clelland, David

Gapes, Mike

29

Gardiner, Barry

Kumar, Dr Ashok

Garnier, Edward

Ladyman, Dr Stephen

George, Bruce (Walsall S)

Laing, Mrs Eleanor

Gerrard, Neil

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Gibb, Nick

Lammy, David

Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

Lansley, Andrew

Gilroy, Mrs Linda

Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

Goggins, Paul

Laxton, Bob

Golding, Mrs Llin

Leigh, Edward

Graham, Thomas

Lepper, David

Greenway, John

Leslie, Christopher

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Letwin, Oliver

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Levitt, Tom

Grocott, Bruce

Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

Grogan, John

Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

Gummer, Rt Hon John

Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen

Hain, Peter

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

Linton, Martin

Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

Livingstone, Ken

Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie

Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

Lock, David

Hammond, Philip

Loughton, Tim

Hanson, David

Love, Andrew

Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet

Luff, Peter

Hayes, John

McAllion, John

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

McAvoy, Thomas

Heald, Oliver

McCabe, Steve

Healey, John

McCafferty, Ms Chris

Heathcoat—Amory, Rt Hon David

McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)

Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

McCartney, Robert (N Down)

Hepburn, Stephen

McDonagh, Siobhain

Heppell, John

Macdonald, Calum

Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

McDonnell, John

Hewitt, Ms Patricia

McFall, John

Home Robertson, John

MacGregor, Rt Hon John

Hood, Jimmy

McGuire, Mrs Anne

Hope, Phil

McIntosh, Miss Anne

Hopkins, Kelvin

Mclsaac, Shona

Howarth, Alan (Newport E)

MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

McKenna, Mrs Rosemary

Howells, Dr Kim

Mackinlay, Andrew

Hoyle, Lindsay

Maclean, Rt Hon David

Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)

McLeish, Henry

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

McLoughlin, Patrick

Humble, Mrs Joan

McNamara, Kevin

Hume, John

McNulty, Tony

Hurst, Alan

Mactaggart, Fiona

Hutton, John

McWalter, Tony

Iddon, Dr Brian

McWilliam, John

Illsley, Eric

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Jack, Rt Hon Michael

Mallaber, Judy

Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

Maples, John

Jamieson, David

Marek, Dr John

Jenkin, Bernard

Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

Jenkins, Brian

Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

Martlew, Eric

Johnson Smith,

Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian

Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Maxton, John

Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)

Meale, Alan

Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)

Merron, Gillian

Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

Michael, Rt Hon Alun

Jones, Ms Jenny (Wolverh'ton SW)

Michie, Bill (She'd Heeley)

Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

Milburn, Rt Hon Alan

Jones, Marlyn (Clwyd S)

Miller, Andrew

Keeble, Ms Sally

Moffatt, Laura

Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)

Moran, Ms Margaret

Kelly, Ms Ruth

Morley, Elliot

Kemp, Fraser

Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)

Key, Robert

Morris, Rt Hon Sir John (Aberavon)

Khabra, Piara S

Mountford, Kali

Kidney, David

Mudie, George

Kilfoyle, Peter

Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

Kirkbnde, Miss Julie

30

Naysmith, Dr Doug

Spellar, John

Nicholls, Patrick

Spicer, Sir Michael

O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

Squire, Ms Rachel

O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

Starkey, Dr Phyllis

O'Hara, Eddie

Steen, Anthony

Olner, Bill

Steinberg, Gerry

Organ, Mrs Diana

Stevenson, George

Osborne, Ms Sandra

Stewart, David (Inverness E)

Ottaway, Richard

Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

Palmer, Dr Nick

Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin

Paterson, Owen

Straw, Rt Hon Jack

Perham, Ms Linda

Streeter, Gary

Pickles, Eric

Stringer, Graham

Pickthall, Cohn

Stuart, Ms Gisela

Pike, Peter L

Sutcliffe, Gerry

Plaskitt, James

Swayne, Desmond

Pollard, Kerry

Swinney, John

Pond, Chris

Syms, Robert

Pope, Greg

Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Portillo, Rt Hon Michael

Taylor, Ms Dan (Stockton S)

Pound, Stephen

Taylor, David (NW Leics)

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

Prescott, Rt Hon John

Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)

Prior, David

Thompson, William

Prosser, Gwyn

Timms, Stephen

Quinn, Lawrie

Todd, Mark

Rammell, Bill

Touhig, Don

Randall, John

Townend, John

Rapson, Syd

Trickett, Jon

Raynsford, Nick

Truswell, Paul

Redwood, Rt Hon John

Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)

Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)

Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)

Robinson, Geoffrey (Covty NW)

Turner, Neil (Wigan)

Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

Twigg, Derek (Halton)

Roche, Mrs Barbara

Tynan, Bill

Rogers, Allan

Tyne, Andrew

Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff

Vaz, Keith

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Vis, Dr Rudi

Rowlands, Ted

Walter, Robert

Roy, Frank

Ward, Ms Claire

Ruane, Chris

Wardle, Charles

Ruddock, Joan

Waterson, Nigel

Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)

Watts, David

Ryan, Ms Joan

Wells, Bowen

St Aubyn, Nick

Welsh, Andrew

Salter, Martin

White, Brian

Sarwar, Mohammad

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Savidge, Malcolm

Whittingdale, John

Sawford, Phil

Wicks, Malcolm

Sedgemore, Brian

Wilkinson, John

Shaw, Jonathan

Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)

Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian

Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)

Shipley, Ms Debra

Wilshire, David

Short, Rt Hon Clare

Wilson, Brian

Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

Skinner, Dennis

Woodward, Shaun

Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

Woolas, Phil

Smith, Angela (Basildon)

Worthington, Tony

Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)

Wray, James

Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

Wyatt, Derek

Smith, John (Glamorgan)

Tellers for the Noes:

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

Mr. Peter Snape and

Soames, Nicholas

Ann Keen.

Soley, Clive

Southworth, Ms Helen

Question accordingly negatived.
Sir Edward Heath: I call Mr. David Davis to move the amendment in favour of Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody.
4.26 pm
Mr. David Davis: I beg to move, as an amendment to the Question, to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody".
Before I start the substantive part of my speech, may I add my tribute to Speaker Boothroyd's term of office? She took charge of the House at a most difficult time for a Speaker, when televising of proceedings had recently started and there were difficult Parliaments. She carried out that duty with enormous skill and capacity.
Notwithstanding what I shall say now, I was impressed by the performance of all the candidates at the hustings this morning. Candidates took seriously the arguments in favour of the reform and progress of the House of Commons.
I laid out earlier my ideal template for the speakership, but that is not the only template. In the 19th century, Delane, the great editor of The Times, called for a Speaker who was of
imperturbable good temper, tact, patience and urbanity.
Everybody will recognise the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) in that description.
Nevertheless, I return to my own template, which was that of a Speaker of strength, independence, integrity, passionate commitment to the Commons in its role of scrutinising Government and holding them to account and, within that, a relentless commitment to the rights of Back Benchers. In the House of Commons, it has often been the Back Bencher who has stood up for the liberties of the individual. I look back to the predecessor of the Deputy Prime Minister and myself, William Wilberforce, onwards through Rathbone and a number of others of whom we should be proud. They could have done their task only with the assistance of the Speaker of the House at the time.
The Speaker must be not just independent of the Government of any persuasion, but determined that that Government will subject themselves to the democratic will of the House of Commons. It has already been said by a number of hon. Members that that is not just the function of the Speaker. It also falls to the Members of the House, but it falls to them under the leadership of the Speaker and subject to the powers that he or she exercises. The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith), the previous candidate, spoke eloquently of some of those.
The position of Speaker requires a passionately committed House of Commons man or woman. The hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich meets that template perfectly. I believe that she will deploy her formidable personality in defending the rights of the House. She has shown great independence in her role as Chairman of the Transport Sub-Committee of the Select Committee on the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs. Again, the Deputy Prime Minister will have particular interest in that.
We will need the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich to do that in the future. We will need a reforming Speaker, and she will be that. She has made a major contribution to the Liaison Committee's report proposing reforms to enhance the powers and effectiveness of the Select Committees and to make them more independent of the Whips—a point that has come up several times today.
32
In addition, when the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich spoke this morning, she proposed a Speaker's Conference to reform radically and update the House of Commons. If she is chosen today, she would oversee such a Conference, which would have to balance the need to make the House more family friendly—no one disputes that need—with that of making it do its job more effectively. Achieving that golden mean will require imagination and experience. The hon. Lady has the experience: she has served the House for a total of 30 years; 26 of them continuously. She has served in government; she therefore understands only too well the pressures and imperatives of office. However, it was long enough ago for her not to be biased by it today.
The hon. Lady understands the Select Committee system and the Chamber. She has played an active part in both. She has eminently chaired the Transport Sub-Committee and been a Deputy Speaker in Westminster Hall. She brings a keen intellect and imagination to those tasks. The hon. Lady has served the House diligently for many years.
The House needs a reforming Speaker; circumstances demand a reforming Speaker. I commend the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich to the House for the post.
4.31 pm
The Minister for the Cabinet Office (Marjorie Mowlam): Self-evidently, this is an important day for the House of Commons. As other speakers have said, Parliament is central to the democracy of this land; it is the last port of call for the voice of citizens to be heard. Over several Parliaments, we have been accused of not performing a vital task. Today, we have the chance to begin the process of restoring power to elected Members speaking for their constituents, improving legislation and holding the Executive to account.
I have the honour of seconding the motion that my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) become Speaker. With a strong Executive, it is crucial to have an independent, gutsy, hard-hitting Speaker to stand up for the House, its Members and the people whom it represents. Those qualities are matched by my hon. Friend's experience in the House. As Deputy Speaker in Westminster Hall, Chairman of the Transport Sub-Committee and member of the Chairman's Panel, my hon. Friend's knowledge of the House's rituals and procedures is second to none.
My hon. Friend has always been a formidable campaigner and advocate in a range of Front-Bench positions, beginning as Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade in 1967 and ranging across foreign affairs, health, media and, of course, transport. I know from civil servants to whom I have spoken how much they look forward to appearing before the Transport Sub-Committee when my hon. Friend chairs it, and how much they enjoy being faced by her indirect, faltering, diffident and benign questioning!
Surely we want a Speaker who is like my hon. Friend: who is clear, decisive, speaks her mind and is able to speak for the House. Anyone who knows her realises that she is passionate, forthright and independent. As others have said, she respects the House and the values that it represents.
Flicking through Hansard, as one does, I came across a memorable passage, which is taken from my hon. Friend's last foray into elections for Speaker, in

33
April 1992. She was not standing on that occasion, but she nominated my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, West (Miss Boothroyd), whom she praised for her witty, hard-hitting public persona and for being very much in charge and keeping us all in place. That was true of my right hon. Friend Member for West Bromwich, West, who will be greatly missed. In turning those words back on my hon. Friend, I can only say, "It takes one to know one."
Hon. Members should be in no doubt about how hard my hon. Friend will work on their behalf, irrespective of their attitudes, beliefs or individuality. In the 13 years that I have spent in the House, I have come to respect her many qualities and singular character. She has been thoughtful and attentive to me and other hon. Members across the political spectrum and to the many staff who work here. She does not do that in public. When the going got tough in Northern Ireland, she would call, not necessarily to agree with what I was doing, but always to offer solidarity and support from one Member to another. I also like her direct, honest and straightforward approach to life in the House. She is a hard-working Member who does the business. She stays late for Division after Division. She is never seen slipping out; she is always seen standing in the taxi queue after voting and doing her duty to the House.
My hon. Friend values the House and the work that it does, but that does not mean that she is against change. She and I agree on the need to reform the workings of the House for all of us—women and men—and especially on the need for more women to be elected. I believe that a woman Speaker constitutes a good mentor and encourages other women into the House.
I support my hon. Friend, but that does not mean that I agree with all that she supports—far from it. We have differences of opinion on many issues, such as the Israel-Palestine conflict, but we discuss and argue the points. That shows that it is perfectly possible to hold different views, but to remain friends, as many hon. Members know. She does that all the time.
At a time when we need to increase public confidence and respect in our political system, we must make up our minds: do we want someone who will put the House in order and put its independence first? My hon. Friend will certainly do that.
Sir Edward Heath: Mrs. Dunwoody has been proposed and seconded. I give her the opportunity to submit herself to the House.
4.36 pm
Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: The House of Commons is periodically faced with a decision that can help to shape its future, its commitment to democracy and the way in which it protects the interests of those who send us here. Impossible though it may seem, legislation does not spring ready polished and perfected from the loins of any Government of whatever colour. It needs to be carefully scrutinised; it needs to be carefully evaluated and, above all, it needs to be improved. That is the reason why the House of Commons has, over the years, taken to itself the power not only to examine the legislation that is presented to it, but to think deeply about its effects because what we do here affects the lives of all our constituents at every level. We produce
34
legislation that carries sanction, that affects not only the way in which children are educated and people are cared for, but the future of the country and its role in the world.
I have deep faith in the ability of the House of Commons to keep those powers inviolate because we know that that is our role. We are very disparate; we come in all sizes and shapes. Some of us are perhaps not as thin as others, but we have the experience and variety, and the faith of those who put us here, to be capable of carefully considering what is presented to us and improving it on every level. I have seen many Parliaments, and each is different from its predecessor, but I have also seen something that has disturbed me: the gradual erosion, under many names, of the rights of Back-Bench Members. Sometimes that is called a procedural change; sometimes an alteration of view, but Back-Benchers have certainly seen a gradual slipping away of that power.
What I want, and what I believe the House of Commons and, indeed, the United Kingdom want, is a Parliament that not only knows its worth, but can hold up its collective head and say, "We have done the very best that we can do for you who elected us. We have exercised our power of judgment. We have concerned ourselves with what is good, what is bad and what is unacceptable and we have taken a view. We give an undertaking that we will never fail as a collective body to continue to exercise that individual judgment."
This is a great honour for me. I would not like hon. Members to be misled by the high quality and status of those who have proposed and seconded me. I do not come garlanded, with powerful groups behind me. Impossible though it may seem, I may not be everyone's automatic choice, but in my time in this place I have learned to appreciate that people on both sides of the House have something to contribute. They are sent here because of their ability, and because they represent a cross-section of the United Kingdom, are responsible and are capable of exercising judgment.
Any Speaker who comes to office now will face great challenges, because there are those who prefer the smooth passage, the uninterrupted arrangement, the careful management of our time and, ultimately, of our programme. We must always remember that, inadequate though we are, we are still individuals with families and homes and, indeed, constituencies to look after. We have that power. We in the House of Commons have the right to change our parliamentary year—we can vote that through when we want. We have the right to change our working day. We have the right to call a Speaker's Conference to consider carefully the constitutional changes that we demand, and to put those changes to the House and ask for its support. We have all those rights, which have been hard fought for over a long period, and we must never easily let go of them.
I do not come to hon. Members as a perfect parliamentarian. I do not come as the choice of those who know how I will react. I come as someone who, from the bottom of my heart, will serve the House in every way that I am able. I will serve the House, because to me Parliament is one of the most important things in our democratic country. We must protect it; we must improve it. We must take back the power that others seek to take away from us. Above all, we must never forget that we

35
are here to do a job for those who have elected us. I pledge that hon. Members will always have my support in performing that task in the best way possible.
Sir Edward Heath: The original Question was, "That Mr. Michael J. Martin do take the Chair of this House as Speaker", since when an amendment has been proposed to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody".
Question put, That the amendment be made: —
The House divided: AYES 170, Noes 341.

Division No. 301]

[4.43 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Gale, Roger

Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James

Gapes, Mike

Bell, Martin (Tatton)

George, Bruce (Walsall S)

Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)

Gill, Christopher

Bennett, Andrew F

Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

Bercow, John

Godman, Dr Norman A

Best, Harold

Golding, Mrs Llin

Blunt, Crispin

Gorman, Mrs Teresa

Brady, Graham

Graham, Thomas

Brazier, Julian

Gray, James

Brinton, Mrs Helen

Grieve, Dominic

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

Browning, Mrs Angela

Hague, Rt Hon William

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Hain, Peter

Butterfill, John

Hammond, Philip

Cable, Dr Vincent

Hayes, John

Cash, William

Heald, Oliver

Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

Hewitt, Ms Patricia

Chaytor, David

Hoey, Kate

Chidgey, David

Hopkins, Kelvin

Chope, Christopher

Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

Clappison, James

Humble, Mrs Joan

Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh)

Jack, Rt Hon Michael

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Jenkin, Bernard

Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

Jones, Ms Jenny (Wolverh'ton SW)

Clifton—Brown, Geoffrey

Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

Collins, Tim

Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)

Corbyn, Jeremy

Kidney, David

Cousins, Jim

King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

Cox, Tom

Kirkbride, Miss Julie

Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)

Laing, Mrs Eleanor

Cummings, John

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Cunningham, Ms Roseanna (Perth)

Lansley, Andrew

Dalyell, Tam

Leigh, Edward

Davidson, Ian

Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Lidington, David

Davies, Quentin (Grantham)

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)

Livingstone, Ken

Davis, Rt Hon Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)

Day, Stephen

Llwyd, Elfyn

Donaldson, Jeffrey

Loughton, Tim

Donohoe, Brian H

Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

Duncan Smith, Iain

McCartney, Robert (N Down)

Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

McDonnell, John

Ellman, Mrs Louise

McIntosh, Miss Anne

Evans, Nigel

MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew

Fabricant, Michael

McLoughlin, Patrick

Fallon, Michael

McWalter, Tony

Field, Rt Hon Frank

Marshall—Andrews, Robert

Fisher, Mark

Maude, Rt Hon Francis

Forth, Rt Hon Eric

Miller, Andrew

Foster, Rt Hon Derek

Mitchell, Austin

Galbraith, Sam

Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)

Morris, Rt Hon Sir John (Aberavon)

36

Mowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie

Stevenson, George

Mullin, Chris

Straw, Rt Hon Jack

Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

Stringer, Graham

Naysmith, Dr Doug

Swayne, Desmond

Nicholls, Patrick

Syms, Robert

O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

Tapsell, Sir Peter

O'Hara, Eddie

Taylor, Ms Dail (Stockton S)

Paice, James

Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)

Paterson, Owen

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Pickles, Eric

Townend, John

Pike, Peter L

Tredinnick, David

Portillo, Rt Hon Michael

Trend, Michael

Powell, Sir Raymond

Trimble, Rt Hon David

Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Viggers, Peter

Randall, John

Walker, Cecil

Redwood, Rt Hon John

Walley, Ms Joan

Robathan, Andrew

Walter, Robert

Robertson, Laurence

Wardle, Charles

Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

Wareing, Robert N

Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff

Whitney, Sir Raymond

Sayeed, Jonathan

Whittingdale, John

Sedgemore, Brian

Wicks, Malcolm

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann

Shipley, Ms Debra

Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)

Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)

Wilshire, David

Skinner, Dennis

Wright, Tony (Cannock)

Smith, John (Glamorgan)

Wyatt, Derek

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

Yeo, Tim

Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

Tellers for the Ayes:

Soames, Nicholas

Mr. David Maclean and

Spicer, Sir Michael

Helen Jones.

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

Steen, Anthony

NOES

Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Ainger, Nick

Buck, Ms Karen

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Burden, Richard

Alexander, Douglas

Burgon, Colin

Allan, Richard

Burstow, Paul

Allen, Graham

Butler, Mrs Christine

Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)

Byers, Rt Hon Stephen

Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary

Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Ashton, Joe

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Atkins, Charlotte

Campbell—Savours, Dale

Baker, Norman

Canavan, Dennis

Ballard, Jackie

Cann, Jamie

Banks, Tony

Caplin, Ivor

Barnes, Harry

Casale, Roger

Barron, Kevin

Caton, Martin

Beard, Nigel

Cawsey, Ian

Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret

Chisholm, Malcolm

Begg, Miss Anne

Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)

Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)

Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)

Benton, Joe

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Beresford, Sir Paul

Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)

Bermingham, Gerald

Clwyd, Ann

Berry, Roger

Coaker, Vernon

Betts, Clive

Coffey, Ms Ann

Blackman, Liz

Cohen, Harry

Blears, Ms Hazel

Coleman, Iain

Blizzard, Bob

Colman, Tony

Blunkett, Rt Hon David

Connarty, Michael

Boateng, Rt Hon Paul

Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)

Borrow, David

Cooper, Yvette

Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

Corbett, Robin

Bradley, Keith (Withington)

Corston, Jean

Bradshaw, Ben

Cotter, Brian

Brake, Tom

Crausby, David

Breed, Colin

Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack (Copeland)

Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)

Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)

Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

Browne, Desmond

37

Curry, Rt Hon David

Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

Curtis—Thomas, Mrs Claire

Hume, John

Darling, Rt Hon Alistair

Hurst, Alan

Darvill, Keith

Hutton, John

Davey, Edward (Kingston)

Iddon, Dr Brian

Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

Illsley, Eric

Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

Davies, Rt Hon Ron (Caerphilly)

Jamieson, David

Dawson, Hilton

Jenkins, Brian

Dean, Mrs Janet

Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)

Denham, John

Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

Dismore, Andrew

Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)

Dobbin, Jim

Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)

Dobson, Rt Hon Frank

Jones, leuan Wyn (Ynys MOP)

Doran, Frank

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen

Keeble, Ms Sally

Dowd, Jim

Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)

Drew, David

Keetch, Paul

Drown, Ms Julia

Kelly, Ms Ruth

Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

Kemp, Fraser

Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness W)

Edwards, Huw

Khabra, Piara S

Efford, Clive

King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

Ennis, Jeff

Kingham, Ms Tess

Etherington, Bill

Kirkwood, Archy

Fearn, Ronnie

Kumar, Dr Ashok

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Ladyman, Dr Stephen

Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

Lammy, David

Flint, Caroline

Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

Flynn, Paul

Laxton, Bob

Follett, Barbara

Lepper, David

Foster, Don (Bath)

Leslie, Christopher

Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)

Levitt, Tom

Foster, Michael J (Worcester)

Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

Foulkes, George

Linton, Martin

Galloway, George

Livsey, Richard

Gardiner, Barry

Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

Garnier, Edward

Lock, David

George, Andrew (St Ives)

Love, Andrew

Gerrard, Neil

Luff, Peter

Gibb, Nick

McAllion, John

Gibson, Dr Ian

McAvoy, Thomas

Gidley, Sandra

McCafferty, Ms Chris

Gilroy, Mrs Linda

McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)

Goggins, Paul

McDonagh, Siobhain

Gorrie, Donald

Macdonald, Calum

Green, Damian

McFall, John

Greenway, John

MacGregor, Rt Hon John

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

McGuire, Mrs Anne

Grocott, Bruce

Mclsaac, Shona

Grogan, John

McKenna, Mrs Rosemary

Gummer, Rt Hon John

Mackinlay, Andrew

Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

McLeish, Henry

Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert

Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie

McNamara, Kevin

Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

McNulty, Tony

Hancock, Mike

Mactaggart, Fiona

Hanson, David

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Harris, Dr Evan

Mallaber, Judy

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

Mendelson, Rt Hon Peter

Healey, John

Maples, John

Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)

Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)

Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

Hepburn, Stephen

Martlew, Eric

Heppell, John

Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian

Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

Maxton, John

Hodge, Ms Margaret

Meale, Alan

Home Robertson, John

Merron, Gillian

Hood, Jimmy

Michael, Rt Hon Alun

Hope, Phil

Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)

Howarth, Alan (Newport E)

Milburn, Rt Hon Alan

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Moffatt, Laura

Hoyle, Lindsay

Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

38

Moore, Michael

Soley, Clive

Moran, Ms Margaret

Southworth, Ms Helen

Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)

Squire, Ms Rachel

Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)

Starkey, Dr Phyllis

Mountford, Kali

Steinberg, Gerry

Mudie, George

Stewart, David (Inverness E)

Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

Oaten, Mark

Stinchcombe, Paul

O'Brien, Bill (Nomranton)

Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin

O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

Streeter, Gary

Olner, Bill

Stuart, Ms Gisela

Öpik, Lembit

Stunell, Andrew

Organ, Mrs Diana

Sutcliffe, Gerry

Osborne, Ms Sandra

Swinney, John

Ottaway, Richard

Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Palmer, Dr Nick

Taylor, David (NW Leics)

Pearson, Ian

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Perham, Ms Linda

Taylor, Sir Teddy

Pickthall, Colin

Temple—Morris, Peter

Plaskitt, James

Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

Pollard, Kerry

Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

Pond, Chris

Thompson, William

Pope, Greg

Timms, Stephen

Pound, Stephen

Todd, Mark

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

Touhig, Don

Prescott, Rt Hon John

Trickett, Jon

Prior , David

Truswell, Paul

Prosser, Gwyn

Turner, Dennis (Wolverhlon SE)

Quinn Lawrie

Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

Rammell Bill

Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)

Rapson Syd

Turner, Neil (Wigan)

Raynsford Nick

Twigg, Derek (Halton)

Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)

Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)

Tyler, Paul

Rendel, David

Tynan, Bill

Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)

Tyrie, Andrew

Roche, Mrs Barbara

Vaz, Keith

Rogers, Allan

Vis, Dr Rudi

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Wallace, James

Roy, Frank

Ward, Ms Claire

Ruane, Chris

Waterson, Nigel

Ruddock, Joan

Watts, David

Russell, Bob (Colchester)

Webb, Steve

Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)

Wells, Bowen

Ryan, Ms Joan

Welsh, Andrew

Salmond, Alex

White, Brian

Sanders, Adrian

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Sarwar, Mohammad

Wilkinson, John

Savidge, Malcolm

Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)

Sawford, Phil

Wilson, Brian

Shaw, Jonathan

Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

Short, Rt Hon Clare

Woodward, Shaun

Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

Woolas, Phil

Smith, Angela (Basildon)

Worthington, Tony

Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)

Wray, James

Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

Tellers for the Noes:

Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)

Mr. Peter Snape and

Ann Keen.

Question accordingly negatived.
Sir Edward Heath: I call the right hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. MacGregor) to move the amendment in favour of the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young).
4.55 pm
Mr. John MacGregor: I beg to move, as an amendment to the Question, to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert thereof "Sir George Young".

39
One of the difficulties in a contested election such as this one, when there are so many candidates, is that all hon. Members have many friends among the candidates, the proposers and the seconders on both sides of the House. We also recognise that all the candidates have particular claims and merits. However, although many of us are torn one way or the other by that, we have finally and invidiously to name one choice as our preferred candidate.
I am proposing my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young) simply because I believe that he has the widest experience for the job. At the start of this Parliament, I had the great privilege of seconding Speaker Boothroyd, and she has indeed proved to be an outstanding Speaker. I am now proposing my right hon. Friend because the qualities that he has demonstrated in plenty over the years in the House would, I am sure, make him an equally outstanding, although different candidate.
I should like very briefly to make four points, the first of which is on my right hon. Friend's personal qualities. Anyone who has had any dealings with him, in public or in private, will testify to his approachability, his fairness, his ability to get on with everyone and his delightful sense of humour, which would stand him in good stead when, in difficult moments, the temperature and the temper of the House require it. However, he has also frequently demonstrated his firmness in seeing issues through. That quality will ensure his authority and his ability, when necessary, to command the House.
Throughout all the party battles in which my right hon. Friend has been engaged in the House, he has fought his case not only vigorously, but always courteously and in a manner that has won him respect and friends across party boundaries. He has also shown his independence of mind and his willingness to detach himself from the party line, as in his opposition as a Back Bencher to—dare I say it—the community charge. It is those qualities that have brought my right hon. Friend support from both sides of the House in this election.
Secondly, my right hon. Friend has wide experience of all the various roles in the House. I heard what the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) said on that matter—that hon. Members can have differing views on it. I believe that it is very valuable to have a Speaker who has wide experience of all the various roles.
My right hon. Friend has shown his independence of the Executive. However, among the candidates, because of his ministerial jobs, he has unrivalled knowledge of how the Executive work. I think that that matters, because knowledge of how the Executive work enables someone who is championing the House to deal with them better. Indeed, all four Speakers in my time in the House, since 1974, have had Front-Bench experience. My right hon. Friend knows the ropes and will not let the Executive get away with anything. I am certain that he will always put the House first.
My right hon. Friend's experience in the Whips Office is equally relevant.
Mr. Andrew Mackinlay: It disqualifies him.
Mr. MacGregor: Then it also disqualified Speaker Boothroyd, who occasionally was heard to observe to Whips, "I know what you're up to, because I was in the Whips Office once."
40
My right hon. Friend also knows the frustrations of opposition, on both the Front and the Back Benches. He has considerable experience of being a Back Bencher. Indeed, hon. Members who have recently been elected to the House may not know that, in 1989, he was The Spectator's Back Bencher of the year. It could be said of him, therefore, that he has made a successful transition from Government to Opposition, and from Government to Back Bencher.
Thirdly, and crucially, I share the concerns about the perceived decline in the standing and importance of this House, particularly the democratic dangers of being sidelined by the Executive, and hence the need to strengthen the House's control over the Executive. This has been commented on so widely that I do not think that I need to elaborate further, except to say that my right hon. Friend's credentials in this respect are clear from the contributions that he has made in various ways as shadow Leader of the House, and in his lectures outside the House, such as that given to the Hansard Society earlier this year. He will give high priority to strengthening the powers of Parliament and, within that, the role and career of the Back Bencher.
Finally, it was a 16th-century Speaker, Speaker Yelverton, who said that one of the qualities required of the Speaker was "a carriage majestical". I do not know whether a bicycle qualifies, but in every other way my right hon. Friend has a carriage majestical. The role of the Speaker as ambassador for the House, here and abroad, and increasingly in the media, at conferences and in meeting delegations has greatly increased, and my right hon. Friend has the stature to be a worthy successor to Speaker Boothroyd in that respect.
My right hon. Friend is not one to blow his own trumpet. Indeed, his modesty is such that he has probably been listening rather blushingly to what I have been saying about him. However, these are the qualities and qualifications that have led me to believe that he is the right choice for Speaker. Above all, he is a House of Commons person through and through.
We are engaged in a byzantine process this afternoon. I fully recognise the difficulties that you face, Sir Edward, but I have much sympathy with the proposal of the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn). In this process, we face complex decisions. I am simply voting for the person whom I think will make the best Speaker, and that is why I am delighted to propose my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire.
Sir Edward Heath: I call on Mrs. Helen Jackson to second.
5.1 pm
Helen Jackson: I did not really ever expect to be in this position, and I am vaguely looking for Betty to give me some moral support. However, she is not here, but you are instead, Sir Edward.
I was going to start by suggesting that the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young) stands head and shoulders above any other candidate, but then thought that that would be a bit corny. That is something that he cannot help, any more than he can help which school his parents sent him to which was, I understand, quite expensive, so we have to consider his other attributes.

41
To Labour Members, the right hon. Gentleman is, first and foremost, a Tory. I have heard many people over the past few days say that to all intents and purposes, that disqualifies him from even putting his name forward for Speaker of this House. I think that that is wrong. Labour Members are dead proud of our thumping majority, and we can do whatever we like if it comes to a vote. We will do so tomorrow, and I hope that we will continue to do so for many years. However, I believe that this is not the day to thump our thumping majority, but to think about who we want sitting in the Speaker's Chair for the foreseeable future.
Betty was an Opposition Member when she was elected on my first day in Parliament. Whoever is elected today—and there have been some powerful speeches—should have clear support across the Chamber. It relieves us all a little from the dominance of the party machine. Each one of us comes here as a representative of all our constituents, however they vote. Although we get tied down in the party machine, as Members of this Parliament we represent everyone.
Apart from that, the right hon. Gentleman has some endearing parliamentary experiences. It must have been interesting to have been sacked by Margaret Thatcher because of his views on the poll tax. It was a great shame that he could not take the rest of his party with him, but we are living to pick up the pieces.
The right hon. Gentleman believes in winning arguments through debate, not shenanigans or silly behaviour. He has even been known to hold up the progress of a debate until someone appropriate could appear on our side of the Dispatch Box to let it continue. He does what he believes in, and he acts on what he says. That is partly why he founded the bicycle club, and we should have to be careful to watch the bicycling mileage allowance if he became Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman also has a sense of humour.
My support for the right hon. Gentleman arises mainly as a result of my work with him on the Select Committee on the Modernisation of the House of Commons. I would describe him as a rebel—a skilful, Front-Bench rebel. He has not had the majority support of his own side for his role on the Committee, but, partly because of his work, that Committee has ensured that the House has made some progress on Westminster Hall and Thursday evening sittings—both of which he supports—and on our appalling and unsocial hours.
It has been fascinating and good to hear supporting statements by the other candidates today in favour of modernising the House. I feel like suggesting to some Members on my own side of the House that we little babes have clearly had some impact. The time for words or for good intentions has passed. I do not want to spend any more time in Parliament asking futile questions every month of the Chairman of the House of Commons Commission, which, because of its archaic and inane Committees, has to run this place as if it were a sort of ex-military machine.
Only one candidate knows not what he will say about modernising the House and bringing it into the 21st century but what he will do, and that candidate is the right hon. Gentleman. On that basis, I second his nomination.
Sir Edward Heath: Sir George Young has been proposed and seconded, and I give him the opportunity to submit himself to the House.
5.7 pm
Sir George Young: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr. MacGregor) and to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Helen Jackson) for their kind words. I have never claimed a penny in bicycle mileage allowance, and I do not propose to do so. Whoever takes the Chair has a hard act to follow in Betty Boothroyd.
My constituents are used to having their Member of Parliament contest the election for Speaker. The Member for Andover in 1705, one John Smith, threw his hat into the ring. The court declared for Mr. Smith, but others declared for a Mr. Bromley, described as
a man of grave deportment, and good morals but looked upon as a violent Tory.
A week before the vote, a contemporary noted:
The Election of the Speaker is still very uncertain, for at least twenty of Mr. Smith's friends are absent.
In the vote, 81 placemen voted for Smith, including his fellow Member for Andover, whom Queen Anne presented with
a purse of 1000 guineas as a token of her satisfaction of his choice.
However, 17 placemen voted against Smith, including the secretary to Prince George, who received the news of his dismissal as he voted in the Lobby. John Smith became the first Speaker of Great Britain and one of the first to sign the treaty of Union with Scotland. His successor as Member for Andover won with a majority of 10, having received 24 votes to his opponent's 14.
Three hundred years later, the core responsibilities of the Speaker remain the same: to protect the rights of Members of this House and to enable them to hold the Executive to account. However, although those responsibilities remain unchanged, the environment in which they need to be exercised has changed dramatically. More recently, the terms of trade have shifted away from the House towards the Executive; they need to be shifted back. Other institutions now rival Parliament with claims to power and influence. We have 24-hour media, demanding instant news; pressure on Members' time has grown tenfold; and our constituents are more numerous and, rightly, more demanding. I ask myself whether the House has fully adjusted to those changed circumstances.
I believe that a strong Parliament is good for the country and good for government. If the House loses influence, the Government can drop their guard and are no longer properly held to account. If the institution of which we are collective members loses influence, it affects our ability individually to represent our constituents.
The heart of Parliament is this Chamber. I believe it needs to beat more strongly—sending oxygen around the rest of the body politic. It needs to be more relevant to the lives of our constituents and more challenging to the Executive. Parliament is the buckle between the people and their Government; it has become loose.
Some say that Parliament should be modernised; I prefer the word "strengthened". Do we need a career structure outside Government for independent-minded Back Benchers, so that the Government do not hoover up most of the talent? Should we hold the Government more effectively to account on their expenditure? Could Opposition time be put to better effect than taking it in Opposition days and half-days, rather than by the right to

43
demand statements when the Government are reluctant to volunteer them? If we have shorter hours—I have been kept out of my bed later and more often than most people—how do we do that without prejudicing the quality of our work? Those are two sides of the same coin.
The answers to these and other questions are for the House, and the Speaker is the servant of the House; but the Speaker has influence and can act as a catalyst in this process of strengthening Parliament. I would like to play a part in that. I have been both Whip and rebel. I have been an inner-city Member and, now, a rural Member. I have had a three-figure majority and a five-figure majority. My four children have grown up while I have been a Member.
For my 26 years in this place, I have been in the Conservative party, but—to repeat a familiar phrase—not run by the Conservative party. [Laughter.] I have sat, with others, on the House of Commons Commission, with its budget of £150 million and responsibility for thousands who work here. I think that we could have more cohesive management of the separate Departments and indeed of the building, for the benefit of Members and of those people who work and visit here.
For a post that no one wants, the speakership is doing rather well. For those of us who are unsuccessful, Mullin, Chris there is another high-profile job currently available, which, by tradition, no one wants—full-time manager of the English football team.
Sir Edward, I regard all the candidates as my friends. We all have different interests and qualities. I, along with them, am happy to submit to the judgment of the House.
Sir Edward Heath: The original Question was, "That Mr. Michael J. Martin do take the Chair of this House as Speaker", since when an amendment has been proposed to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Sir George Young".
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 241, Noes 317.

Division No. 302]

[5.13 pm

AYES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

Allen, Graham

Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia

Ancram, Rt Hon Michael

Bradshaw, Ben

Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)

Brady, Graham

Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James

Brake, Tom

Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary

Brazier, Julian

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Breed, Colin

Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

Brinton, Mrs Helen

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Baldry, Tony

Browning, Mrs Angela

Ballard, Jackie

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret

Burnett, John

Bell, Martin (Tatton)

Burstow, Paul

Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)

Butterfill, John

Bennett, Andrew F

Cable, Dr Vincent

Bercow, John

Campbell—Savours, Dale

Beresford, Sir Paul

Caplin, Ivor

Betts, Clive

Cawsey, Ian

Blackman, Liz

Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

Blunkett, Rt Hon David

Chidgey, David

Blunt, Crispin

Chope, Christopher

Body, Sir Richard

Clappison, James

Boswell, Tim

44

Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh)

Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)

Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)

Key, Robert

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

Clifton—Brown, Geoffrey

Kirkbride, Miss Julie

Coaker, Vernon

Kirkwood, Archy

Collins, Tim

Laing, Mrs Eleanor

Cran, James

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Cunningham, Ms Roseanna (Perth)

Lansley, Andrew

Curry, Rt Hon David

Letwin, Oliver

Davey, Edward (Kingston)

Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)

Davies, Quentin (Grantham)

Lidington, David

Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Day, Stephen

Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)

Denham, John

Llwyd, Elfyn

Donaldson, Jeffrey

Lock, David

Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen

Loughton, Tim

Duncan, Alan

Luff, Peter

Duncan Smith, Iain

Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

McCartney, Robert (N Down)

Evans, Nigel

MacGregor, Rt Hon John

Faber, David

McIntosh, Miss Anne

Fabricant, Michael

MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew

Fallon, Michael

Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert

Fearn, Ronnie

McLoughlin, Patrick

Field, Rt Hon Frank

MacShane, Denis

Fisher, Mark

Mactaggart, Fiona

Fitzsimons. Mrs Lorna

Madel, Sir David

Foster, Rt Hon Derek

Major, Rt Hon John

Foster, Don (Bath)

Mandelson, Rt Hon Peter

Fox, Dr Liam

Maples, John

Fraser, Christopher

Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)

Garnier, Edward

Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

Gibb, Nick

Marshall—Andrews, Robert

Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

Mates, Michael

Gorrie, Donald

Maude, Rt Hon Francis

Gray, James

Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian

Green, Damian

May, Mrs Theresa

Greenway, John

Miller, Andrew

Grieve, Dominic

Mitchell, Austin

Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)

Grogan, John

Morley, Elliot

Gummer, Rt Hon John

Morris, Rt Hon Sir John (Aberavon)

Hague, Rt Hon William

Moss, Malcolm

Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie

Nicholls, Patrick

Hammond, Philip

Norman, Archie

Harris, Dr Evan

Oaten, Mark

Harvey, Nick

O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

Hayes, John

Öpik, Lembit

Heald, Oliver

Page, Richard

Heathcoat—Amory, Rt Hon David

Paice, James

Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

Paterson, Owen

Hewitt, Ms Patricia

Pearson, Ian

Hill, Keith

Pickles, Eric

Hodge, Ms Margaret

Pike, Peter L

Hoey, Kate

Pope, Greg

Horam, John

Portillo, Rt Hon Michael

Howarth, Alan (Newport E)

Prior, David

Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

Radice, Rt Hon Giles

Hoyle, Lindsay

Rammell, Bill

Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)

Randall, John

Jack, Rt Hon Michael

Raynsford, Nick

Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

Redwood, Rt Hon John

Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)

Jamieson, David

Bendel, David

Jenkin, Bernard

Robathan, Andrew

Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)

Robertson, Laurence

Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

Johnson Smith, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Ross, William (E Lond'y)

Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)

Russell, Bob (Colchester)

Keeble, Ms Sally

St Aubyn, Nick

Keetch, Paul

Sanders, Adrian

Kelly, Ms Ruth

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)

Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)

Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

45

Soames, Nicholas

Tredinnick, David

Soley, Clive

Trend, Michael

Spelman, Mrs Caroline

Trimble, Rt Hon David

Spicer, Sir Michael

Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)

Spring, Richard

Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

Starkey, Dr Phyllis

Tyler, Paul

Steen, Anthony

Tyrie, Andrew

Straw, Rt Hon Jack

Vaz, Keith

Streeter, Gary

Viggers, Peter

Stringer, Graham

Walter, Robert

Stuart, Ms Gisela

Wardle, Charles

Stunelt, Andrew

Waterson, Nigel

Swayne, Desmond

Webb, Steve

Syms, Robert

Wells, Bowen

Tapsell, Sir Peter

Whitney, Sir Raymond

Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Whittingdale, John

Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)

Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Willetts, David

Temple—Morris, Peter

Wilshire, David

Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

Wright, Tony (Cannock)

Thompson, William

Yeo, Tim

Timms, Stephen

Young, Rt Hon Sir George

Tipping, Paddy

Tellers for the Ayes:

Todd, Mark

Mr. Richard Ottaway and

Tonge, Dr Jenny

Mr. Martin Salter.

NOES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Chaytor, David

Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)

Chisholm, Malcolm

Ainger, Nick

Clapham, Michael

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

Alexander, Douglas

Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

Allan, Richard

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)

Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)

Ashton, Joe

Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

Atkins, Charlotte

Clwyd, Ann

Banks, Tony

Coffey, Ms Ann

Barnes, Harry

Cohen, Harry

Barron, Kevin

Coleman, Iain

Bayley, Hugh

Colman, Tony

Beard, Nigel

Connarty, Michael

Begg, Miss Anne

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)

Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)

Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)

Cooper, Yvette

Benton, Joe

Corbett, Robin

Bermingham, Gerald

Corbyn, Jeremy

Berry, Roger

Corston, Jean

Best, Harold

Cotter, Brian

Blears, Ms Hazel

Cousins, Jim

Blizzard, Bob

Cox, Tom

Boateng, Rt Hon Paul

Crausby, David

Borrow, David

Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)

Bradley, Keith (Withington)

Cummings, John

Bradshaw, Ben

Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack (Copeland)

Brown, Rt Hon Gordon (Dunfermline E)

Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)

Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)

Curtis—Thomas, Mrs Claire

Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

Dalyell, Tam

Browne, Desmond

Darling, Rt Hon Alistair

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Darvill, Keith

Buck, Ms Karen

Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

Burden, Richard

Davidson, Ian

Burgon, Colin

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Butler, Mrs Christine

Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

Byers, Rt Hon Stephen

Davies, Rt Hon Ron (Caerphilly)

Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

Davis, Rt Hon Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Dawson, Hilton

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Dean, Mrs Janet

Canavan, Dennis

Dismore, Andrew

Cann, Jamie

Dobbin, Jim

Casale, Roger

Dobson, Rt Hon Frank

Cash, William

Donohoe, Brian H

Caton, Martin

Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

46

Doran, Frank

King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

Dowd, Jim

Kingham, Ms Tess

Drew, David

Kumar, Dr Ashok

Drown, Ms Julia

Ladyman, Dr Stephen

Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

Lammy, David

Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

Edwards, Huw

Laxton, Bob

Efford, Clive

Lepper, David

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Leslie, Christopher

Ennis, Jeff

Levitt, Tom

Etherington, Bill

Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

Flint, Caroline

Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen

Flynn, Paul

Linton, Martin

Follett, Barbara

Livingstone, Ken

Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)

Livsey, Richard

Foster, Michael J (Worcester)

Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

Foulkes, George

McAllion, John

Galbraith, Sam

McAvoy, Thomas

Galloway, George

McCabe, Steve

Gapes, Mike

McCafferty, Ms Chris

Gardiner, Barry

McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)

George, Andrew (St Ives)

McDonagh, Siobhain

George, Bruce (Walsall S)

McDonnell, John

Gerrard, Neil

McFall, John

Gibson, Dr Ian

McGuire, Mrs Anne

Gidley, Sandra

Mclsaac, Shona

Gilroy, Mrs Linda

McKenna, Mrs Rosemary

Godsiff, Roger

Mackinlay, Andrew

Goggins, Paul

McLeish, Henry

Golding, Mrs Llin

McNamara, Kevin

Graham, Thomas

McNulty, Tony

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

McWalter, Tony

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

McWilliam, John

Grocott, Bruce

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Hain, Peter

Mallaber, Judy

Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

Marek, Dr John

Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

Hancock, Mike

Martin, Michael J

Hanson, David

Martlew, Eric

Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet

Maxton, John

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

Meale, Alan

Healey, John

Merron, Gillian

Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)

Michael, Rt Hon Alun

Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

Michie, Bill (Shefld Heeley)

Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

Milburn, Rt Hon Alan

Hepburn, Stephen

Moffatt, Laura

Heppell, John

Moran, Ms Margaret

Home Robertson, John

Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)

Hood, Jimmy

Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)

Hope, Phil

Mountford, Kali

Hopkins, Kelvin

Mowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Mudie, George

Howells, Dr Kim

Mullin, Chris

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

Humble, Mrs Joan

Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

Hume, John

Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)

Hurst, Alan

Naysmith, Dr Doug

Hutton, John

O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

Iddon, Dr Brian

O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

Illsley, Eric

O'Hara, Eddie

Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)

Olner, Bill

Jenkins, Brian

Organ, Mrs Diana

Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)

Osborne, Ms Sandra

Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)

Palmer, Dr Nick

Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

Perham, Ms Linda

Jones, leuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)

Pickthall, Colin

Jones, Ms Jenny (Wolverh'ton SW)

Plaskitt, James

Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

Pollard, Kerry

Jones, Marlyn (Clwyd S)

Pond, Chris

Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)

Pound, Stephen

Kemp, Fraser

Powell, Sir Raymond

Khabra, Piara S

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

Kidney, David

Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Kitfoyle, Peter

47

Prescott, Rt Hon John

Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

Prosser, Gwyn

Stinchcombe, Paul

Quinn, Lawrie

Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin

Rapson, Syd

Sutcliffe, Gerry

Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)

Swinney, John

Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)

Taylor, Ms Dan (Stockton S)

Roche, Mrs Barbara

Taylor, David (NW Leics)

Rogers, Allan

Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff

Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Touhig, Don

Rowlands, Ted

Trickett, Jon

Roy, Frank

Truswell, Paul

Ruane, Chris

Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

Ruddock, Joan

Turner, Neil (Wigan)

Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)

Twigg, Derek (Halton)

Ryan, Ms Joan

Tynan, Bill

Salmond, Alex

Vis, Dr Rudi

Sarwar, Mohammad

Walley, Ms Joan

Savidge, Malcolm

Ward, Ms Claire

Sawford, Phil

Watts, David

Sedgemore, Brian

Welsh, Andrew

Shaw, Jonathan

White, Brian

Sheerman, Barry

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian

Wicks, Malcolm

Shipley, Ms Debra

Wilkinson, John

Short, Rt Hon Clare

Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)

Skinner, Dennis

Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)

Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

Wilson, Brian

Smith, Angela (Basildon)

Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)

Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

Smith, Miss Geraldine(Morecambe & Lunesdale)

Woodward, Shaun

Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

Woolas, Phil

Smith, John (Glamorgan)

Worthington, Tony

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

Wray, James

Southworth, Ms Helen

Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

Spellar, John

Wyatt, Derek

Squire, Ms Rachel

Steinberg, Gerry

Tellers for the Noes:

Stevenson, George

Mr. Peter Snape and

Stewart, David (Inverness E)

Ann Keen.

Question accordingly negatived.
5.26 pm
Mr. Martin O'Neill: I beg to move, as an amendment to the Question, to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Mr. Menzies Campbell".
In proposing the name of Ming Campbell, I realise that I am breaking the tradition by nominating a member of a minority party. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) pointed out in his letter to The Times last week, however, there is no sufficiently clear tradition to tie the House to any course of action.
Nevertheless, it has to be remembered that the election of Speaker Boothroyd did end the precedent in the post-war period of the holder of the office always coming from the majority party. I would point out that, in part, Betty Boothroyd's success was the result of a recognition that the winner-takes-all rule that so often applies in our proceedings should not be employed in the election of the Speaker. It is for this reason that I would urge friends on the Government Benches to consider a candidate from ranks other than our own. In future Parliaments—certainly not the next one—it could be in the interests of a Labour Opposition to call on such a precedent.
That, however, is not the sole reason for proposing Ming Campbell; indeed, everything that I have said so far could apply to a member of the Conservative party.
48
I happen to believe that Back Benchers—whose champion we expect the Speaker to be—will be better represented by someone from the most politically excluded of all groups; the minority party.
With nearly 50 Members—47 to be exact—the Liberal Democrats are not the minuscule minority that once they were. The increase in their numbers is in no small way due to the credibility of such Members as Menzies Campbell. In a bipartisan Chamber such as this, it is still no mean feat to achieve the status and authority that Ming Campbell now enjoys. His work in the House—and, in particular, in the areas of foreign affairs and security—has done much to contribute to the consensus in this country which has seen us through so many of the international travails of recent years.
It has been suggested that Menzies Campbell enjoys support from elsewhere in the Labour ranks, and that this may be to his disadvantage. As far as I am concerned, all I can say is that, on this subject, No. 10 has employed the same method of consultation as usual—namely, extrasensory perception. Certainly, Ming has brought to his work in this House all the skills of advocacy that we would expect from a distinguished silk at the Scottish Bar.
However, the House needs more than the services of a hired legal gun in the post of Speaker and more than a mastery of procedure. We know that "Erskine May" is the guide and record of precedent, but not the sole repository of wisdom. We need a Speaker who can nudge and cajole the House, while never forgetting that if we the Members want—as I do—to end a lot of the flummery and the arcane procedures, such as the process of this election, it is up to us as Members to decide, and it is for the Speaker to ensure that our wishes become a reality. The House needs someone whose authority, independence and political acuity make them a match for the serried ranks of the Executive. Those who care for this House and its good standing must know that, in electing Menzies Campbell to be Speaker, we should be electing such a person. I urge my colleagues and friends to do so.
5.30 pm
Mr. Derek Wyatt: I am delighted to second the nomination of Menzies Campbell. He is a very old friend of mine. I have known him and his family—I almost planned to say "the Ming dynasty", but it did not sound so good this morning—much longer than my short time in this place.
I have learned already that there are four parts to the job of Speaker. I did not know until today that we were so much interested in holding the Executive to account. We have certainly had much time before this afternoon to do so. Nevertheless, we try to make the Speaker hold the Executive to account—at least to do his or her best to do so.
We also hope that the Speaker will make this a modern Chamber. It seems to me, as a relative newcomer, that much of our activity still belongs in the 19th century rather than the 21st. Although we may hope that a Speaker will modernise, he or she does not have the authority to do so.
The Speaker must also run a Department with a budget of £150 million. In some ways, I suppose that he or she is a chief executive behind closed doors.
Finally, in a role that has not been much touched on, the office of the Speaker is the focus for democratic parliamentary life in the world, as the mother or father of all Speakers.

49
To be a good Speaker, it seems that one needs to understand the nature of this place and to have lived in it long; to have immense wit and charm; to be quick-minded; and to have integrity, ability and great wisdom. I think that Menzies Campbell has those qualities in abundance. I urge the House to be different for a change and to allow a Liberal Democrat a chance to be passed the baton.
Sir Edward Heath: Mr. Menzies Campbell has been proposed and seconded, and I give him the opportunity to submit himself to the House if he so wishes.
5.31 pm
Mr. Menzies Campbell: I formally submit myself to the will of the House, and in doing so I should acknowledge that it is a great honour even to have been considered worthy of nomination.
As we have heard, it is customary to pay tribute to the previous Speaker, and this I gladly do along with all those who have already done so. Madam Speaker Boothroyd has left an indelible mark on this House of Commons. She may not have left a wig, but she has most certainly left a pair of particularly elegant shoes, which it will take someone of some character to aspire to fill.
I never expected to get to Westminster: I joined the Liberal party in 1959. That could hardly have been described as a promising career move. I entered the House only in 1987, at the fifth attempt. I began to feel that I was on course to test to destruction the myth of Robert the Bruce and the spider. My baptism as a candidate was in the general election of February 1974. I hope, Sir Edward, that you will not take offence at the recollection. To stand as a Liberal in a Labour-held west of Scotland industrial constituency took, may I say, a certain amount of independence.
Even when I became a candidate for my present constituency, it took three elections and 11 years to get here. I found, as others both before and since have found, that to be a Back Bencher is often a continual exercise in frustration. For those who have not had the experience, to be a Back Bencher as a member of a minority party is even more an exercise in frustration. It is self-evident to me that a Speaker drawn from a minority party would find it difficult not to reflect that experience in dealing with Back Benchers of all parties.
I am very grateful to my proposer and seconder for the generous way in which they have put the case on my behalf, and in terms—I suspect—rather better than I deserve. Much has been said and written in recent weeks about the relationship between the House and the Government and the Speaker. I have not issued a manifesto or attended hustings—not because I disapprove of them or those who have participated in them, but because I thought it right to conduct myself within existing conventions. I suspect that this will be the last election of any Speaker to which those conventions apply.
I shall now say a little about the relationships to which I have just referred. Our constitution is based on entitlements. I believe that the country is entitled to expect a House of Commons composed of Members of Parliament who will rigorously—and sometimes brutally—hold the Government to account. In turn, Members are entitled to a framework in which they can do that effectively. However, in my experience, it is the
50
quality and the intensity of scrutiny that make scrutiny effective, and not necessarily the length of time devoted to it. I do not believe that overtired and harassed Members of Parliament, concerned about their families, are likely to fulfil that responsibility of scrutiny—or any of the other obligations imposed on us—as effectively as the electorate would want and are entitled to expect.
Being a Member of Parliament will never be a comfortable job—nor should it be. It is a job that requires sacrifices in return for the privileges it bestows. However, we should not regard self-inflicted discomfort as a badge of courage. Members of Parliament are entitled to something—or rather someone—else: a Speaker who will facilitate their holding the Government to account by using the powers of the Chair to their fullest extent for that purpose; a Speaker who will neither obstruct nor countenance any delay in reforms that the House in its wisdom may decide to implement.
The blunt, unvarnished truth is that, no matter how eloquent the words of proposers, seconders or even candidates themselves, the decision the House makes today is a matter of trust. A candidate who seems to be well qualified today might fail to fulfil expectations, and one who appears less qualified might grow into the job. To chair our proceedings, to manage the House of Commons Commission and to represent the House both at home and abroad—those are onerous responsibilities. If the House were to place its trust in me, I should strain every sinew to ensure that that trust was not misplaced.
Sir Edward Heath: The original Question was, "That Mr. Michael J. Martin do take the Chair of this House as Speaker", since when an amendment has been proposed to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Mr. Menzies Campbell".
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 98, Noes 381.

Division No. 303]

[5.37 pm

AYES

Allan, Richard

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Allen, Graham

Fearn, Ronnie

Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary

Field, Rt Hon Frank

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Fisher, Mark

Baker, Norman

Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

Ballard, Jackie

Flynn, Paul

Beard, Nigel

Galbraith, Sam

Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret

George, Andrew (St Ives)

Bell, Martin (Tatton)

George, Bruce (Walsall S)

Blunkett, Rt Hon David

Gidley, Sandra

Bradshaw, Ben

Godman, Dr Norman A

Brake, Tom

Gorrie, Donald

Breed, Colin

51

Ladyman, Dr Stephen

Russell, Bob (Colchester)

Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen

Sanders, Adrian

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)

Livsey, Richard

Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)

Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)

Stinchcombe, Paul

Lock, David

Stunell, Andrew

Macdonald, Calum

Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)

Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Major, Rt Hon John

Temple-Morris, Peter

Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)

Thompson, William

Mates, Michael

Tipping, Paddy

Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)

Tonge, Dr Jenny

Mitchell Austin

Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)

Moonie Dr Lewis

Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

Moore, Michael

Tyler, Paul

Oaten, Mark

Tyrie, Andrew

O'Neill, Martin

Viggers, Peter

Öpik, Lembit

Wallace, James

Palmer, Dr Nick

Webb, Steve

Pearson, Ian

Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd

Pollard, Kerry

Wyatt, Derek

Pope, Greg

Tellers for the Ayes:

Radice, Rt Hon Giles

Mr. Paul Keetch and

Rendel, David

Mr. Don Foster.

NOES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Byers, Rt Hon Stephen

Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)

Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

Ainger, Nick

Campbell, Mrs Anne (Cbridge)

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Canavan, Dennis

Alexander, Douglas

Cann, Jamie

Ancram, R1 Hon Michael

Casale, Roger

Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)

Cash, William

Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James

Caton, Marlin

Ashton, Joe

Cawsey, Ian

Atkins, Charlotte

Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Chaytor, David

Banks, Tony

Chisholm, Malcolm

Barnes, Harry

Chope, Christopher

Barron, Kevin

Clapham, Michael

Bayley, Hugh

Clappison, James

Begg, Miss Anne

Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)

Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh)

Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)

Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Bennett, Andrew F

Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)

Benton, Joe

Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

Bercow, John

Clelland, David

Beresford, Sir Paul

Clifton—Brown, Geoffrey

Bermingham, Gerald

Clwyd, Ann

Berry, Roger

Coaker, Vernon

Best, Harold

Coffey, Ms Ann

Betts, Clive

Cohen, Harry

Blackman, Liz

Coleman, Iain

Blears, Ms Hazel

Collins, Tim

Blizzard, Bob

Colman, Tony

Blunt, Crispin

Connarty, Michael

Boateng, Rt Hon Paul

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Body, Sir Richard

Cooper, Yvette

Borrow, David

Corbett, Robin

Boswell, Tim

Corbyn, Jeremy

Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

Corston, Jean

Bradley, Keith (Withington)

Cousins, Jim

Brady, Graham

Crausby, David

Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)

Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)

Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

Cummings, John

Browne, Desmond

Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)

Browning, Mrs Angela

Curtis—Thomas, Mrs Claire

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Dalyell, Tam

Buck, Ms Karen

Darling, Rt Hon Alistair

Burden, Richard

Darvill, Keith

Burgon, Colin

Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

Butler, Mrs Christine

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Butterfill, John

52

Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

Humble, Mrs Joan

Davies, Rt Hon Ron (Caerphilly)

Hurst, Alan

Davis, Rt Hon Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

Hutton, John

Dawson, Hilton

Iddon, Dr Brian

Day, Stephen

Jamieson, David

Dean, Mrs Janet

Jenkins, Brian

Dismore, Andrew

Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)

Dobbin, Jim

Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

Dobson, Rt Hon Frank

Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)

Donaldson, Jeffrey

Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)

Donohoe, Brian H

Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

Doran, Frank

Jones, leuan Wyn (Ynys Mein)

Dowd, Jim

Jones, Ms Jenny (Wolverh'ton SW)

Drew, David

Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

Drown, Ms Julia

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)

Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

Kemp, Fraser

Edwards, Huw

Key, Robert

Efford, Clive

Khabra, Piara S

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Kidney, David

Ennis, Jeff

Kilfoyle, Peter

Etherington, Bill

King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

Evans, Nigel

Kirkbride, Miss Julie

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Kumar, Dr Ashok

Flight, Howard

Laing, Mrs Eleanor

Flint, Caroline

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Follett, Barbara

Lansley, Andrew

Foster, Rt Hon Derek

Lawrence. Mrs Jackie

Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)

Laxton, Bob

Foster, Michael J (Worcester)

Lepper, David

Fox, Dr Liam

Leslie, Christopher

Fraser, Christopher

Letwin, Oliver

Gale, Roger

Levitt, Tom

Galloway, George

Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

Gapes, Mike

Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

Gardiner, Barry

Linton, Martin

Garnier, Edward

Livingstone, Ken

Gerrard, Neil

Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

Gibb, Nick

Llwyd, Elfyn

Gillen, Mrs Cheryl

Loughton, Tim

Gilroy, Mrs Linda

Love, Andrew

Godsiff, Roger

Luff, Peter

Goggins, Paul

McAllion, John

Golding, Mrs Llin

McAvoy, Thomas

Graham, Thomas

McCabe, Steve

Gray, James

McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)

Green, Damian

McDonagh, Siobhain

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

McDonnell, John

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

McFall, John

Grocott, Bruce

MacGregor, Rt Hon John

Hain, Peter

McGuire, Mrs Anne

Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

McIntosh, Miss Anne

Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

Mclsaac, Shona

Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie

MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew

Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

McKenna, Mrs Rosemary

Hammond, Philip

Mackinlay, Andrew

Hanson, David

McLeish, Henry

Hayes, John

McLoughlin, Patrick

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

McNamara, Kevin

Heald, Oliver

McNulty, Tony

Healey, John

Mactaggart, Fiona

Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David

McWalter, Tony

Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Hepburn, Stephen

Mallaber, Judy

Heppell, John

Maples, John

Heseitine, Rt Hon Michael

Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool 5)

Home Robertson, John

Marshall-Andrews, Robert

Hood, Jimmy

Martlew, Eric

Hope, Phil

Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian

Hopkins, Kelvin

Maxton, John

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

May, Mrs Theresa

Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

Meale, Alan

Hoyle, Lindsay

Merron, Gillian

Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

53

Michael, Rt Hon Alun

Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

Michie, Bill (SheId Heeley)

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

Milburn, Rt Hon Alan

Soley, Clive

Miller, Andrew

Southworth, Ms Helen

Moffatt, Laura

Spellar, John

Moran, Ms Margaret

Spicer, Sir Michael

Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)

Squire, Ms Rachel

Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)

Starkey, Dr Phyllis

Morris, Rt Hon Sir John (Aberavon)

Steen, Anthony

Moss, Malcolm

Steinberg, Gerry

Mounttord, Kali

Stewart, David (Inverness E)

Mowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie

Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

Mudie, George

Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin

Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

Straw, Rt Hon Jack

Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

Stringer, Graham

Naysmith, Dr Doug

Stuart, Ms Gisela

Nicholls, Patrick

Sutcliffe, Gerry

O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

Swayne, Desmond

O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

Swinney, John

O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

Syms, Robert

O'Hara, Eddie

Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Olner, Bill

Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)

Organ, Mrs Diana

Taylor, David (NW Leics)

Osborne, Ms Sandra

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Ottaway, Richard

Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)

Paterson, Owen

Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

Perham, Ms Linda

Timms, Stephen

Pickles, Eric

Todd, Mark

Pickthall, Colin

Touhig, Don

Pike, Peter L

Townend, John

Plaskitt, James

Tredinnick, David

Pond, Chris

Trend, Michael

Pound, Stephen

Trickett, Jon

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

Truswell, Paul

Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Turner, Dennis (Wolvernlon SE)

Prescott, Rt Hon John

Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

Prior, David

Turner, Neil (Wigan)

Prosser, Gwyn

Twigg, Derek (Halton)

Quinn, Lawrie

Tynan, Bill

Randall, John

Vaz, Keith

Rapson Syd

Vis, Dr Rudi

Raynsford, Nick

Walley, Ms Joan

Redwood, Rt Hon John

Ward, Ms Claire

Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)

Waterson, Nigel

Robertson, Laurence

Watts, David

Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)

Welsh, Andrew

Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

White Brian

Roche, Mrs Barbara

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Rogers, Allan

Whittingdale, John

Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff

Wicks, Malcolm

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann

Rowlands, Ted

Wilkinson, John

Roy, Frank

Willetts, David

Ruane, Chris

Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

Ruddock, Joan

Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)

Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)

Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)

Ryan, Ms Joan

Wilshire, David

Salmond, Alex

Wilson, Brian

Sarwar, Mohammad

Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

Savidge, Malcolm

Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

Sawford, Phil

Woodward, Shaun

Sedgemore, Brian

Woolas, Phil

Shaw, Jonathan

Worthington, Tony

Sheemian, Barry

Wray, James

Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)

Tellers for the Noes:

Skinner, Dennis

Mr. Peter Snape and

Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

Ann Keen.

Smith, Angela (Basildon)

Question accordingly negatived.
5.49 pm
Sitting suspended.
6.5 pm
On resuming—
Sir Edward Heath: I call Mr. Maxton to move the amendment in favour of Dr. Clark.
Mr. John Maxton: I beg to move, as an amendment to the Question, to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Dr. David Clark".
I begin my remarks by making it clear that I add my voice to those who have expressed concerns about the way in which this election is taking place. That is in no way a criticism of you, Sir Edward, or the decision that you took. You have carried out your task so far with dignity, efficiency and fairness. However, in a modern democracy it is absurd that we should elect the Speaker of our legislature in such an arcane manner. We are elected by secret ballot; we should elect our Speaker in the same way. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) has made it clear that if elected as the new Speaker, he will ask the Procedure Committee to consider the matter urgently and produce a more efficient and fairer way in which to elect someone for this important post.
The election of the new Speaker of the House of Commons is always a significant event in the history of Parliament. Perhaps rarely has it had more significance than today. We have already seen more changes in our constitution in the past three and a half years than in the previous 50—the establishment of a Scottish Parliament, a Welsh Assembly and a London Assembly, and major changes in the House of Lords, with more to come. At the same time, the world outside is changing at an astonishing rate.
It is vital that as those changes take place, the House must change if it is not to become a quaint historic anachronism. We need a new Speaker who has the ability to control the House, to act as the chairman of an increasingly complex organisation and to be our ambassador both to the people who elect us and to the rest of the world. However, this time we must also elect a Speaker who will work with the House to change it and bring it fully into the 2Ist century. I believe that in my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields we would have such a Speaker.
The son of a gardener, my right hon. Friend left school at 16 to work in forestry. Attending night school, he obtained the qualifications necessary to enter Manchester university and to gain BA, MSc and PhD degrees. I mention that only to show that he has the determination and intelligence to succeed in any task that he is given. He first entered Parliament in 1970, when he was elected Member for Colne Valley. He lost that seat in 1974, but was returned in 1979 to represent South Shields. He has been the Member for South Shields ever since, and is thus one of the most experienced Members. He was a member of the shadow Cabinet for many years in opposition, covering several portfolios. In 1997 he was appointed Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, in which post he served for a year. His work in bringing information

55
technology more rapidly into government and on the Freedom of Information Bill was appreciated by many of his colleagues, if not by all those in the Cabinet.
Since then my right hon. Friend has been a Back Bencher. He understands how the House of Commons works from both sides—as a member of the Executive and from the Back Benches. Despite perhaps feeling some resentment about the way in which he was treated, he has loyally supported the Government, but he has not done so with total blindness. He voted against those measures in the Freedom of Information Bill that he thought betrayed the concept that he advocated when in government.
I have known my right hon. Friend since he re-entered Parliament in 1979. Over the years I have learned to appreciate his quiet intelligence, his advice, his composure and his subtle humour. He will stay calm when the House is rowdy. He will avert impending rows with a quick wit. He will bring intelligence to all the decisions. He will take advice but remain his own man. Thus he has the attributes needed for any Speaker in any age. So do some of the other candidates who have been proposed, but my right hon. Friend would bring to the job an understanding of the modern world and the revolutionary changes that are transforming it. He knows that if the House is to retain the respect of those who elect us, it must change quickly.
The Speaker can play only a limited role in that. However, he can and must set the tone: lead change, not thwart it. He must work with others in the House to move us from the 18th and 19th centuries, where so many of our customs are stuck, into the democratic world of the 21st century. I believe that my right hon. Friend is the person best suited to do that.
6.11 pm
Joan Ruddock: I wish to second the nomination of my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark). I do so as someone who has never been a close friend or ally of his. Indeed, before we were all new Labour, he and I were on opposite wings of the party. However, he always had my respect as a person of integrity and ability who was willing to engage in debate and listen to the opponent's argument.
As others have said, today's election is about much more than who occupies the Speaker's Chair; it is about the role itself. While in this place, the Speaker must exercise his or her authority with dignity and impartiality. I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend would do so with courage and consistency. However, the Speaker usually occupies the Chair for only about 10 hours a week. Most of his or her powers are exercised behind closed doors. Our ability to act effectively as legislators depends profoundly on the Speaker's skills in creating the framework for debate and dealing with the usual channels.
Someone who has been in government working with the Chief Whip and Cabinet colleagues has the advantage of knowing the tricks of that trade. Someone who has been involuntarily returned to the Back Benches has an added advantage. As a Back Bencher, my right hon. Friend knows how difficult but vital it is to be an effective scrutineer. I have no doubt that he will use his considerable skills and experience to champion Back Benchers' interests.
56
For all those reasons, I support my right hon. Friend. I do so most of all because I want a Speaker who will lead the reform of the House, who will support a package of reforms that will deliver sensible working hours, and who understands that MPs should not have to set aside family responsibilities to do their job. It is emblematic of this place that we have a pink ribbon for our swords and paperclips for our letters, but no computers and no child care facilities.
My right hon. Friend has a long track record of support for modernisation. His is the most radical reform agenda before us today—an agenda that would revitalise the Chamber, quicken the pace of debate and deepen our scrutiny. Not only would that lead to more effective and fulfilling roles for Back Benchers and to better government, it might just lead to a revival of public interest and support. Far too many people see our Parliament as the preserve of political junkies playing out old rituals. Many of us will never be either the great stars or, I hope, the great bores of this place, but we all deserve to be heard without fear or favour when we represent our constituents and voice the concerns of ordinary people.
In my right hon. Friend we have a man who would enable us to exercise our democratic duties in this place in ways fit for the 21st century. I second the amendment in support of my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields.
Sir Edward Heath: Dr. David Clark has been proposed and seconded. I now invite him to submit himself to the House if he so wishes.
6.15 pm
Dr. David Clark: I willingly submit myself as a candidate for Speaker. I do so with considerable trepidation but with a feeling of great honour, because I am a House of Commons person. I believe passionately in representative democracy, and it is a great honour to be nominated. It is also unexpected, because a few months ago the thought had not even crossed my mind. It was only because a few colleagues suggested that I would be a suitable candidate that I felt it appropriate to allow my name to go forward.
The job of Speaker is obviously a difficult position to try to fill. Clearly, the two main demands of the job are almost contradictory. The Speaker is the servant of the House, but is at the same time the protector of the House—protecting it as an institution, protecting its reputation and protecting its Members. The job description is particularly challenging.
I would bring to the job judgment and integrity based on my belief in representative democracy. Several right hon. and hon. Members have highlighted the challenges that representative democracy faces today. I submit that we may need to do other things to meet some of those challenges.
I would also bring judgment and integrity based on experience. I came to the House rather unexpectedly in 1970—I was the only gain for my party at that election, but I was also the only loss for my party in 1974. I claim no credit; it was a pure accident. When I came to the House in 1970, we were nearer to the end of the second world war than to the new millennium. It has been brought home to me how the rest of the world has changed a great deal over the years, but although we have had changes in the House, we have not been as courageous as we might have been in modernising this institution sufficiently.

57
I bring 25 years' experience of the House. I sat for too long on the Opposition Front Bench and for too short a time on the Government Front Bench, but I shall not go on about that. I was proud to be in the Cabinet and to spearhead two aspects of Government policy: information technology and freedom of information. I passionately believed in that policy, not for any academic reasons, but for the simple reason that information technology and freedom of information enable Members of Parliament, as representatives of the people, to engage and re-engage our constituents, and to challenge those who try to undermine our representative democracy.
I have no illusions. I am one of those strange people who knew what it was like here but came back because I loved it so much. I was one of the retreads. Being an MP is not only a privilege, but a unique job. We all know that to do that job we need eight days a week and 25 hours a day—but we must now look at the way in which we arrange our working lives, so that we can better match the demands made of us by our constituents. The way in which we in the House appear on television often does not convey the message that we are businesslike, and I think we should think about that very deeply.
Select Committees are still young institutions, and I believe the time has come to strengthen them so that we can challenge the Executive. I was a member of the Executive, and I happen to believe that there is nothing wrong with being challenged robustly by a representative of the people. That, I think, is a counterbalance to the advice that one is given by civil servants.
I also believe that we must become much more family friendly, and I think we could do much more to try to achieve that.
I see the task as a difficult task. I see the task as a daunting task. I see the task as to speak up for the ordinary Member of Parliament. I also see the task as to give the Government space in which to govern, because if the Government cannot govern, the House will suffer as well. In the end it is a question of balance; it is a question of judgment; and in the end, the Speaker is merely a servant and a defender of the House.
I can pledge only this: I shall be my own man, and I shall fight for the rights of Members of the House—and by fighting for the rights of Members of the House, I shall fight for the rights of the citizens who send them to the House.
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 192, Noes 296.

Division No. 304]

[6.22 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Betts, Clive

Ainger, Nick

Blackman, Liz

Allan, Richard

Blunkett, Rt Hon David

Allen, Graham

Borrow, David

Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)

Bradley, Keith (Withington)

Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James

Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary

Bradshaw, Ben

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Brake, Tom

Atkins, Charlotte

Breed, Colin

Baker, Norman

Brinton, Mrs Helen

Ballard, Jackie

Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)

Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Bell, Martin (Talton)

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)

Burden, Richard

Bennett, Andrew F

Burstow, Paul

Berry, Roger

Butterfill, John

58

Byers, Rt Hon Stephen

Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness W)

Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

Key, Robert

Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife)

King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)

Caplin, Ivor

Kirkwood, Archy

Caton, Martin

Kumar, Dr Ashok

Cawsey, Ian

Laxton, Bob

Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Chaytor, David

Linton, Martin

Chidgey, David

Livingstone, Ken

Clappison, James

Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)

Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)

Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

Llwyd, Elfyn

Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

Lock, David

Clelland, David

McDonnell, John

Cohen, Harry

Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert

Cooper, Yvette

McLoughlin, Patrick

Corbett, Robin

MacShane, Denis

Corbyn, Jeremy

Major, Rt Hon John

Cousins, Jim

Maples, John

Gran, James

Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)

Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)

Cummings, John

Martlew, Eric

Cunningham, Ms Roseanna (Perth)

Maxton, John

Dalyell, Tam

Miller, Andrew

Darvill, Keith

Mitchell, Austin

Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

Moonie, Dr Lewis

Davidson, Ian

Moran, Ms Margaret

Davies, Quentin (Grantham)

Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)

Davies, Rt Hon Ron (Caerphilly)

Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)

Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)

Morley, Elliot

Davis, Rt Hon Terry (B' ham Hodge H)

Morris, Rt Hon Sir John (Aberavon)

Denham, John

Mullin, Chris

Drown, Ms Julia

Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)

Edwards, Huw

Naysmith, Dr Doug

Fisher, Mark

Oaten, Mark

Flynn Paul

O'Hara, Eddie

Foster, Rt Hon Derek

O'Neill, Marlin

Foster, Don (Bath)

Palmer, Dr Nick

Foster, Michael J (Worcester)

Pike, Peter L

Foulkes , George

Pond, Chris

Galbraith, Sam

Portillo, Rt Hon Michael

Gapes Mike

Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Gardiner, Barry

Prior, David

George, Andreew (St lves)

Radice, Rt Hon Giles

George, Bruce (Walsall S)

Rammell, Bill

Gidley , Sandra

Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)

Gilroy, Mrs Linda

Bendel, David

Godman, Dr Norman A

Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff

Golding, Mrs Llin

Ruddock, Joan

Gorrie, Donald

St Aubyn, Nick

Greenway, John

Salter, Martin

Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

Sanders, Adrian

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Savidge, Malcolm

Grogan, John

Sheerman, Barry

Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Harvey, Nick

Shipley, Ms Debra

Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)

Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

Home Robertson, John

Smith, Angela (Basildon)

Hoyle, Lindsay

Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)

Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

Smith, John (Glamorgan)

Iddon, Dr Brian

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)

Jamieson, David

Soley, Clive

Jenkin, Bernard

Southworth, Ms Helen

Jones, leuan Wyn (Ynys Môn)

Squire, Ms Rachel

Jones, Ms Jenny(Wolverh'ton SW)

Steen, Anthony

Steinberg, Gerry

Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

Stinchcombe, Paul

Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)

Stringer, Graham

Kelly, Ms Ruth

Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Taylor, Ms Dart (Stockton S)

59

Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)

Wareing, Robert N

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Wells, Bowen

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

White, Brian

Thompson, William

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Todd, Mark

Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd

Tonge, Dr Jenny

Worthington, Tony

Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)

Wright, Tony (Cannock)

Turner, Neil (Wigan)

Wyatt, Derek

Tyler, Paul

Tyne, Andrew

Tellers for the Ayes:

Walley, Ms Joan

Mr. Terry Lewis and

Wafter, Robert

Mr. Hilton Dawson.

NOES

Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)

Dobson, Rt Hon Frank

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Donohoe, Brian H

Alexander, Douglas

Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen

Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)

Dowd, Jim

Ashton, Joe

Drew, David

Banks, Tony

Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

Barnes, Harry

Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

Barron, Kevin

Efford, Clive

Bayley, Hugh

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Beard, Nigel

Ennis, Jeff

Begg, Miss Anne

Etherington, Bill

Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)

Fearn, Ronnie

Benton, Joe

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Bermingham, Gerald

Flight, Howard

Best, Harold

Flint, Caroline

Blears, Ms Hazel

Follett, Barbara

Blizzard, Bob

Forth, Rt Hon Eric

Blunt, Crispin

Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)

Boateng, Rt Hon Paul

Galloway, George

Brady, Graham

Gerrard, Neil

Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

Goggins, Paul

Browne, Desmond

Graham, Thomas

Buck, Ms Karen

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Burgon, Colin

Grocott, Bruce

Cable, Dr Vincent

Gummer, Rt Hon John

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

Canavan, Dennis

Hancock, Mike

Casale, Roger

Hanson, David

Cash, William

Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet

Chisholm, Malcolm

Hayes, John

Healey, John

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

Chope, Christopher

Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

Hepburn, Stephen

Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)

Heppell, John

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Hodge, Ms Margaret

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Hood, Jimmy

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Hope, Phil

Clwyd, Ann

Hopkins, Kelvin

Coaker, Vernon

Howarth, Alan (Newport E)

Coffey, Ms Ann

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Coleman, Iain

Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

Colman, Tony

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

Connarty, Michael

Humble, Mrs Joan

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Hutton, John

Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)

Jenkins, Brian

Corston , Jean

Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

Cotter, Brian

Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)

Crausby, David

Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)

Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack (Copeland)

Jones, Helen (Warnrigton N)

Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)

Jones, Marlyn (ClwydS)

Curry, Rt Hon David

Keeble, Ms Sally

Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire

Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)

Davey, Edward (Kingston)

Keetch, Paul

Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

Kemp, Fraser

Day, Stephen

Khabra, Piara S

Dean, Mrs Janet

Kidney, David

Dismore, Andrew

Kilfoyle, Peter

Dobbin, Jim

King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

Kirkbride, Miss Julie

Ladyman, Dr Stephen

60

Laing, Mrs Eleanor

Rogers, Allan

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Lammy, David

Roy, Frank

Lansley, Andrew

Ruane, Chris

Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

Russell, Bob (Colchester)

Lepper, David

Ryan, Ms Joan

Levitt, Tom

Salmond, Alex

Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

Samar, Mohammad

Livsey, Richard

Sawford, Phil

Love, Andrew

Sayeed, Jonathan

Luff, Peter

Sedgemore, Brian

McAllion, John

Shaw, Jonathan

McAvoy, Thomas

Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian

McCabe, Steve

Skinner, Dennis

McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)

Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

McDonagh, Siobhain

Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

Macdonald, Calum

Soames, Nicholas

McFall, John

Spellar, John

MacGregor, Rt Hon John

Spicer, Sir Michael

McGuire, Mrs Anne

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

McIntosh, Miss Anne

Starkey, Dr Phyllis

Mclsaac, Shona

Stewart, David (Inverness E)

MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew

Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

McKenna, Mrs Rosemary

Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin

Mackinlay, Andrew

Straw, Rt Hon Jack

Maclean, Rt Hon David

Stuart, Ms Gisela

McLeish, Henry

Stunell, Andrew

McNamara, Kevin

Sutcliffe, Gerry

McNulty, Tony

Swayne, Desmond

McWalter, Tony

Swinney, John

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Syms, Robert

Mallaber, Judy

Tapsell, Sir Peter

Mandelson, Rt Hon Peter

Taylor, David (NW Leics)

Marshall-Andrews, Robert

Temple-Morris, Peter

Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian

Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)

Meale, Alan

Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

Merron, Gillian

Touhig, Don

Michael, Rt Hon Alun

Tredinnick, David

Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)

Trickett, Jon

Milburn, Rt Hon Alan

Truswell, Paul

Moffatt, Laura

Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

Moore, Michael

Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

Mountford, Kali

Twigg, Derek (Halton)

Mudie, George

Tynan, Bill

Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

Vaz, Keith

Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

Vis, Dr Rudi

O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

Wallace, James

O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

Ward, Ms Claire

Olner, Bill

Waterson, Nigel

Öpik, Lembit

Watts, David

Organ, Mrs Diana

Webb, Steve

Osborne, Ms Sandra

Welsh, Andrew

Paterson, Owen

Whittingdale, John

Pearson, Ian

Wicks, Malcolm

Perham, Ms Linda

Wilkinson, John

Pickles, Eric

Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

Pickthall, Colin

Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)

Plaskitt, James

Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)

Pope, Greg

Willis, Phil

Pound, Stephen

Wilshire, David

Powell, Sir Raymond

Wilson, Brian

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

Prescott, Rt Hon John

Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

Prosser, Gwyn

Woolas, Phil

Quinn, Lawrie

Wray, James

Rapson, Syd

Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

Redwood, Rt Hon John

Robertson, Laurence

Tellers for the Noes:

Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)

Mr. Peter Snape and

Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

Ann Keen.

Roche, Mrs Barbara

Question accordingly negatived.
6.33 pm
Mr. John Wilkinson: I beg to move, as an amendment to the Question, to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Mr. Nicholas Winterton".
We all know my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton). More important, the country knows him as a man of courage and integrity. When I take schoolchildren around the House and we go to the Queen's Robing room, I point out that two frescoes are missing. Two of King Arthur's knightly virtues are not portrayed on the walls. I jokingly say to the constituents that it is no surprise because they are the two virtues that are the rarest among politicians—fidelity and courage.
My hon. Friend has both in abundance. Above all, he has shown through a long and distinguished career a total devotion to his constituents, a fidelity to Parliament and the courage at all times and in all circumstances to fight for them, to put them first and to put their interests before his own.
You will remember, Sir Edward, when my hon. Friend was elected to the House in September 1971. I remember thinking then that he had a great future and I think it still. Cometh the hour, cometh the man, and it is the hour when Parliament must choose an individual who will be respected throughout the country for his devotion to Parliament.
My hon. Friend has had a long apprenticeship and in any normal walk of life that would be an advantage. It should be here. After all, he showed when he took Sir Arthur Vere Harvey's seat at the by-election a professionalism that is the hallmark of politics today. Not for nothing did he win his seat in the 1967 Warwickshire county council election. Not for nothing did he fight two losing campaigns in Newcastle-under-Lyme and then come to a by-election, which is the crucible of politics, in Macclesfield and win. He fought and he won.
My hon. Friend was of the generation that you will understand, Sir Edward: those of us who had their formative experiences in the armed forces of the Crown. You were a gunner, I flew aeroplanes, and my hon. Friend was in tanks. There is no more demanding environment than to be in a tank and to learn to get on with all sorts of conditions and people. It has been my hon. Friend's characteristic throughout his career.
There have been differences with those who set the Government's agenda; there have been differences of opinion with respected colleagues; but always my hon. Friend has fought with integrity for his point of view and above all for the interests of his constituents. When he came to the hustings, and I think that those who came to the hustings should have priority in our attentions, he twice used an important word: "integrity". That is what we demand of the Speaker.
The right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) pointed out the challenges that Parliament faces. It is a fact that the integrity of Parliament is coming increasingly into question. No one has ever impugned my hon. Friend's integrity. He has shown, for example, on the Select Committee on Health, which he chaired, a total devotion to getting the health service right, even if that was unpopular in Government circles.
My hon. Friend has also been notable as senior member of the Speaker's Panel. I served with him briefly when he chaired the Committee considering the Greater London
62
Authority Act 1999. There could have been no other measure harder to chair in the previous Session, but he did it with fairness, good humour and great wisdom.
Last but not least, my hon. Friend has an interest in international affairs. He has championed the democratic rights of the Falkland islanders. He was formerly the chairman of the Falkland Islands all-party group of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and a member of the CPA executive. It is symbolic. Although the Falkland Islands has perhaps the smallest legislature of the member countries of the Commonwealth, my hon. Friend took on the challenge and supported it.
Not only does our Speaker have to be a household word in the land, and have a voice that will carry with conviction—as my hon. Friend's will—to all the corners of the country, but he must have the personality to represent the United Kingdom around the globe. Speaker Boothroyd's last activity as Speaker was to go to Ukraine and to the Baltic states, and what better ambassadress could we have had? I doubt that we could possibly have had a better one. However, if my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield goes to such places, he will take not only a different style, but my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Mrs. Winterton)—who, as the lady of integrity that she is, undoubtedly will pay her own way.
I warmly commend my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield to the House and ask the House to support the amendment.
Sir Edward Heath: I call Mr. Stephen Pound to second the amendment.
6.41 pm
Mr. Stephen Pound: Of all the speeches that we have heard in this long and winding day, as we meander with a mazy motion through this labyrinth of protocol and procedure, the one that seemed to find most favour with the House was that of the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Butterfill), who stood up and said that he was not standing. Although I have been tempted by the throne myself—any job that involves an element of hair covering has its attractions to me—I should like to rule myself out for all time. Nevertheless, I am honoured to second the nomination of the hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton).
There are those who—unkindly, unfairly and outrageously—say that the only ground for nominating the hon. and gallant Gentleman to the Speaker's Chair is to shut him up. I will have no truck with that—although I have heard more than I wish to know about the Congleton to Macclesfield bypass. The House would be deprived of an original, fresh and idiosyncratic voice were the hon. and gallant Gentleman to become Speaker, but that is no reason not to support him.
Today, the hon. and gallant Gentleman, with the individualism that characterises his every word, described himself as a "traditionalist-progressive". I took that not as an oxymoron, to mean a revolutionary reactionary or something like that, but as an expression of his wish to combine the best of both worlds. He is a traditionalist, in that he undoubtedly reveres and respects the great traditions of this great House, but he is also sufficiently progressive to realise that nothing stands still, that nothing must stand still, and that even an institution such as this one can and—dare I say it—must improve.

63
Can there be a finer example of that combination of qualities than the hon. and gallant Gentleman's chairmanship of the Select Committee on Health, when—in an alliance almost as unlikely as that between the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) and me—with the late and greatly missed Audrey Wise, the Committee produced the report on maternity services? It was one of the most ground-breaking and revolutionary reports that the House has ever seen, taking the interests of the woman to be paramount.
It is no secret—even to hon. Members who have been elected to the House recently and have no glorious tradition of coming in and out of the House or various by-elections to refer to—that the forces of the then Government were not pleased with the hon. and gallant Gentleman. They even—I do not know whether this is unparliamentary language—manoeuvred him from the chairmanship of that Committee.
While the hon. and gallant Gentleman chaired that Committee, he sought neither to find favour with the Government nor to curry favour with the Opposition. However, he represented the voices of women and of ordinary Back Benchers. That particular example shows how the man can go beyond what some unfairly see as his stereotypic presentation.
The hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood referred to the hon. and gallant Gentleman as a household name. As is well known, I am not even a household name in my own household. Nevertheless. I can offer a view on the hon. and gallant Gentleman from the perspective of the most lowly worm.
The hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood also mentioned the Committee that considered the Greater London Authority Act 1999, which had more than 1,000 amendments and clauses. That legislation was steered through by the hon. and gallant Gentleman not only with great good humour, but, above all, with an unfailing and irrefragable respect for the lowliest Back Bencher. Even the most newly arrived Back Benchers had their chance to speak on that Committee. Although, in my case, that fact was regretted as soon as I had spoken, he thought sufficiently of us and our rights to ensure that we were able to do that.
Although I would not claim to be as one with the hon. and gallant Gentleman politically—he is a tad liberal for my taste—as the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood said, in his every action, both within and outside this place, there has been an unbroken line of integrity and of unflinching and unchanging morality. That is precisely the type of quality that one looks for in the Speaker of this place.
It has also been said, somewhat ungraciously, that if we were to elect the hon. and gallant Gentleman as Speaker, we would have a Bill and Hillary scenario in which we would be getting two for the price of one. I would not in any way compare the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Congleton (Mrs. Winterton) with the President and the First Lady of the United States of America.
Shona McIsaac: Who would be Monica?
Mr. Pound: I shall not mention the name that I just heard from the Cleethorpes side of the House.
64
The hon. and gallant Gentleman and the hon. Member for Congleton are a team, and we have seen that team in action. We have also come to respect that team. It matters not whether we agree or disagree with them, they work well together.
Today, however, we are considering the case for the hon. and gallant Gentleman. I think that that case is proven. He is the man whom no Government functionary would ever choose for Speaker. He is a paid-up member—he is almost the shop steward—of the awkward squad. I see that he is sitting next to the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth), who would have been the first choice for Speaker of many of the more iconoclastic hon. Members.
Nevertheless, for all that we find the hon. and gallant Gentleman occasionally to be brutish if not short in his contributions, none of us would doubt for a moment that he speaks his mind without fear or favour. He never ceases to represent his constituents to his best. Every single time that he has been put to the test in relation to the rights of the Back Bencher against those of the Executive, the Back Bencher has won out.
From my worm's eye perspective, I have great pleasure in seconding the nomination of the hon. Member for Macclesfield, and have probably cost myself a lot of friends in doing so—[Interruption.] It is said that that pre-supposes that I had any friends to start with.
Sir Edward Heath: Mr. Nicholas Winterton has been proposed and seconded. I give him the opportunity to submit himself to the House.
6.50 pm
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Thank you, Sir Edward, for giving me the opportunity of submitting myself to the will of the House.
Sir Edward, I think that I am right in saying that you entered the House of Commons in 1950 when Earl Winterton was the Father of the House, and I entered the House when you were Prime Minister. Whether either of those facts will do me any good today, I have my doubts.
I am now in my 30th year of unbroken service, and I have served for all that period, for whatever reason—as I said at the hustings this morning—as a Back Bencher in this House of Commons. For me, the House of Commons, its institutions and its Committees have been my total political life, and I have enjoyed it through all its vicissitudes. In many ways, I share the view of Edmund Burke, who said:
You choose a member indeed, but when you have chosen him, he is not member of Bristol but he is a Member of Parliament.
That is what I have sought to be.
Of course, I accept, as my seconder, the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Pound) said, that constituency duties and responsibilities and heavy involvement have become increasingly important since Edmund Burke represented Bristol. The parliamentary timetable and the parliamentary week should take those matters into account. Whoever takes the Chair has the prime and vital task not only of guaranteeing the meaningful independence and integrity of the House but, as my proposer and seconder have already said, of safeguarding the rights and concerns of every Member, irrespective of political party affiliations or, in the case of the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Bell), of none.

65
The hon. Member for Ealing, North was very generous in referring to my chairmanship of the Committee considering the Greater London Authority Bill. In addition, as the longest-serving member of the Speaker's Panel, I hope that I have established a record of total impartiality, integrity and independence. My time chairing the Select Committee on Health has been referred to. It was a fantastic Committee because of the co-operation of all its members, who were seeking to do the job that Select Committees are there to do.
Speaker Boothroyd rightly emphasised that the requirement of effective scrutiny and the democratic process must take priority over the convenience of Members. However, let me say to those on both Front Benches that that is a message not to Back Benchers, who are burdened with long hours, but to the Government, who should not seek to put too much badly drafted legislation through the Commons in unseemly haste, riding roughshod over the legislature in the process.
I would welcome more private notice questions from Back Benchers as part of their individual responsibility of holding the Government to account and representing their constituencies. Let us modernise our procedures where that can be done without undermining the essential roles of amending legislation and opposition. Although Lord Randolph Churchill said that the duty of an Opposition is to oppose, opposition does not come simply from Opposition parties—it sometimes comes from within political parties. Such opposition should be heard and given a say, otherwise Parliament will become a pathetic poodle of the Government of the day and of the establishment. That is not the purpose of this place.
The Select Committee on the Modernisation of the House of Commons, on which I sit, and the Select Committee on Procedure, which I have the honour to chair, have both contributed to bringing the procedures and practices of this place more up to date. I am convinced that they will continue to do so. Having been, as it were, almost challenged by a previous candidate, I am sure that the Procedure Committee, whatever the outcome of the speakership election, will wish to consider the Standing Orders covering the election of the Speaker.
I was questioned on my next point this morning at the hustings. Despite my initial reservations about it, the Westminster Hall experiment has, in my view, been a great success. The Speaker of the House has always had the opportunity to comment on, and contribute to, the continuing debate on modernisation and changes in procedure. I am in favour of a Speaker's Conference, but the Speaker is the servant of the House and the House, surely, is its own master, as long as it is prepared to exercise that power. Again, I share the view of Edmund Burke, who said:
The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.
Surely it is the Speaker's difficult task to guard against such delusion, not only in the House's dealings with the Executive, but in respect of outside bodies, international organisations and, as was said earlier, large corporations.
In the 30 years that I have been a Member of this House, I have experienced the art and intrigue of the Executive—I fear to my disadvantage. However, it did me a lot of good because it merely encouraged me to defend the rights of Back Benchers and the role of Parliament all the more robustly. Let us use the Select Committees more positively, as the Liaison Committee has recommended,
66
not only to hold the Government of the day to account, but to assist the Government to produce better drafted and considered legislation through the production of draft Bills and the development of business sub-committees for the proper programming of the Standing Committee stage of Bills.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) for his supportive and generous remarks in proposing me. Like me, he has always been a Back Bencher, and he believes fervently in the role and purpose of this House. I also thank the hon. Member for Ealing, North for his most entertaining and flamboyant speech. It was a pleasure to listen to it, not just because I was involved, but because it was a very good contribution. He was forthright and positive, and I was delighted at the way in which he seconded me. We got to know each other well during the Committee stage of the Greater London Authority Bill, on which he spoke with great commitment and knowledge.
Finally, it is a great honour even to be proposed and seconded as Speaker. I think that there is a great deal more that Members wish to say. I hope that the House, in considering the nominations for Speaker, will be zealous in its power, role and integrity. I guarantee and promise that I will strive to uphold that authority whenever abuses and threats are made to the integrity of this House. Let us use the new millennium to help to rebuild the power and authority of our parliamentary democracy in this House. I offer myself as the servant and the voice of the House.
Sir Edward Heath: The original question was, "That Mr. Michael J. Martin do take the Chair of this House as Speaker", since when an amendment has been proposed to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Mr. Nicholas Winterton".
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 116, Noes 340.

Division No. 305]

[7 pm

AYES

Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James

Donaldson, Jeffrey

Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

Drew, David

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Duncan, Alan

Bell, Marlin (Tatton)

Duncan Smith, Iain

Bercow, John

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Blunt, Crispin

Fabricant, Michael

Body, Sir Richard

Forth, Rt Hon Eric

Brady, Graham

Fox, Dr Liam

Brazier, Julian

Fraser, Christopher

Brinton, Mrs Helen

Gale, Roger

Browning, Mrs Angela

Gill, Christopher

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Gillian, Mrs Cheryl

Butterfill, John

Gorman, Mrs Teresa

Cash, William

Gray, James

Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

Green, Damian

Chope, Christopher

Greenway, John

Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh)

Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Hague, Rt Hon William

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie

Collins, Tim

Hayes, John

Gran, James

Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David

Curry, Rt Hon David

Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

Curry, Rt Hon David

Hunter, Andrew

Davies, Quentin (Grantham)

Jack, Rt Hon Michael

Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)

Jenkin, Bernard

Day, Stephen

Johnson, Smith, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Kirkbride, Miss Julie

67

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

Lansley, Andrew

Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff

Leigh, Edward

Ross, William (E Lond'y)

Letwin, Oliver

St Aubyn, Nick

Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)

Sayeed, Jonathan

Lidington, David

Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)

Spicer, Sir Michael

Loughton, Tim

Steen, Anthony

Luff, Peter

Streeter, Gary

McCartney, Robert (N Down)

Swayne, Desmond

McIntosh, Miss Anne

Syms, Robert

MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew

Tapsell, Sir Peter

Maclean, Rt Hon David

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

McLoughlin, Patrick

Taylor, Sir Teddy

Major, Rt Hon John

Thompson, William

Mates, Michael

Tipping, Paddy

Maude, Rt Hon Francis

Townend, John

Mitchell, Austin

Tredinnick, David

Moss, Malcom

Trend, Michael

Nicholls, Patrick

Walter, Robert

Norman, Archie

Waterson, Nigel

O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

Wells, Bowen

Ottaway, Richard

Whitney, Sir Raymond

Paice, James

Whittingdale, John

Paterson, Owen

Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann

Pickles, Eric

Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd

Portilo, Rt Hon Michael

Wilshire, David

Prior, David

Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

Randall, John

Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)

Redwood, Rt Hon John

Rendel, David

Tellers for the Ayes:

Robertson, Laurence

Mr. John Wilkinson and

Mr. Stephen Pound.

NOES

Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)

Burstow, Paul

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Byers, Rt Hon Stephen

Alexander, Douglas

Cable, Dr Vincent

Allan, Richard

Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

Allen, Graham

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)

Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife)

Ashton, Joe

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Atkins, Charlotte

Campbell—Savours, Dale

Baker, Norman

Canavan, Dennis

Ballard, Jackie

Casale, Roger

Banks, Tony

Caton, Martin

Barnes, Harry

Cawsey, Ian

Barron, Kevin

Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

Bayley, Hugh

Chidgey, David

Beard, Nigel

Chisholm, Malcolm

Begg, Miss Anne

Clapham, Michael

Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)

Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)

Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)

Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

Bennett, Andrew F

Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

Benton, Joe

Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)

Bermingham, Gerald

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Berry, Roger

Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)

Best, Harold

Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

Betts, Clive

Clelland, David

Blears, Ms Hazel

Clwyd, Ann

Blizzard, Bob

Coaker, Vernon

Boateng, Rt Hon Paul

Coffey, Ms Ann

Borrow, David

Cohen, Harry

Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)

Coleman, Iain

Bradley, Keith (Withington)

Colman, Tony

Brake, Tom

Connarty, Michael

Brown, Rt Hon Gordon (Dunfermline E)

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)

Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)

Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

Cooper, Yvette

Browne, Desmond

Corbett, Robin

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Corbyn, Jeremy

Buck, Ms Karen

Corston, Jean

Burden, Richard

Cotter, Brian

Burgon, Colin

68

Crausby, David

Humble, Mrs Joan

Cummings, John

Hutton, John

Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack (Copeland)

lddon, Dr Brian

Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)

Illsley, Eric

Curtis—Thomas, Mrs Claire

Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)

Darling, Rt Hon Alistair

Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

Darvill, Keith

Jamieson, David

Davey, Edward (Kingston)

Jenkins, Brian

Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

Davidson, Ian

Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)

Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)

Davis, Rt Hon Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

Dawson, Hilton

Jones, leuan Wyn (Ynys Môn)

Dean, Mrs Janet

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

Denham, John

Keeble, Ms Sally

Dismore, Andrew

Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)

Dobbin, Jim

Keetch, Paul

Dobson, Rt Hon Frank

Kelly, Ms Ruth

Donohoe, Brian H

Kemp, Fraser

Doran, Frank

Khabra, Piara S

Dowd, Jim

Kidney, David

Drown, Ms Julia

Kilfoyle, Peter

Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

Kirkwood, Archy

Edwards, Huw

Ladyman, Dr Stephen

Efford, Clive

Lammy, David

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

Ennis, Jeff

Laxton, Bob

Etherington, Bill

Lepper, David

Fearn, Ronnie

Leslie, Christopher

Fisher, Mark

Levitt, Tom

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

Flint, Caroline

Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

Flynn, Paul

Livsey, Richard

Foster, Don (Bath)

Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)

Llwyd, Eifyn

Foster, Michael J (Worcester)

Lock, David

Foulkes, George

Love, Andrew

Galloway, George

McAllion, John

Gapes, Mike

McAvoy, Thomas

Gardiner, Barry

McCabe, Steve

George, Andrew (St Ives)

McCafferty, Ms Chris

George, Bruce (Walsall S)

McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)

Gerrard, Neil

McDonagh, Siobhain

Gidley, Sandra

Macdonald, Calum

Gilroy, Mrs Linda

McDonnell, John

Godsiff, Roger

McFall, John

Goggins, Paul

McGuire, Mrs Anne

Golding, Mrs Llin

Mclsaac, Shona

Gorrie, Donald

Mackinlay, Andrew

Graham, Thomas

McNamara, Kevin

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

McNufty, Tony

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Mactaggart, Fiona

Grocott, Bruce

McWalter, Tony

Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

Mallaber, Judy

Hancock, Mike

Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)

Hanson, David

Marshall-Andrews, Robert

Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet

Martlew, Eric

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

Maxton, John

Healey, John

Meale, Alan

Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)

Merron, Gillian

Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

Michael, Rt Hon Alun

Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)

Hepburn, Stephen

Milburn, Rt Hon Alan

Heppell, John

Miller, Andrew

Hodge, Ms Margaret

Moffatt, Laura

Hood, Jimmy

Moore, Michael

Hope, Phil

Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)

Hopkins, Kelvin

Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Morley, Elliot

Howells, Dr Kim

Morris, Rt Hon Sir John (Aberavon)

Hoyle, Lindsay

Mountford, Kali

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

69

Mudie, George

Soley, Clive

Mullin, Chris

Southworth, Ms Helen

Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

Spellar, John

Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)

Squire, Ms Rachel

Naysmith, Dr Doug

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

Oaten, Mark

Starkey, Dr Phyllis

O'Hara, Eddie

Steinberg, Gerry

Olner, Bill

Stewart, David (Inverness E)

O'Neill, Martin

Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

Öpik, Lembit

Stinchcombe, Paul

Organ, Mrs Diana

Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin

Osborne, Ms Sandra

Straw, Rt Hon Jack

Pearson, Ian

Stringer, Graham

Perham, Ms Linda

Stuart, Ms Gisela

Pickthall, Colin

Sutcliffe, Gerry

Pike, Peter L

Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Plaskitt, James

Taylor, Ms Dan (Stockton S)

Pond, Chris

Taylor, David (NW Leics)

Pope, Greg

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Powell, Sir Raymond

Temple-Morris, Peter

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)

Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

Prescott, Rt Hon John

Timms, Stephen

Prosser, Gwyn

Todd, Mark

Quinn, Lawrie

Tonge, Dr Jenny

Radice, Rt Hon Giles

Touhig, Don

Rammell, Bill

Tnckett, Jon

Rapson, Syd

Truswell, Paul

Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)

Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)

Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)

Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)

Roche, Mrs Barbara

Turner, Neil (Wigan)

Rogers, Allan

Twigg, Derek (Halton)

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

Rowlands, Ted

Tyler, Paul

Roy, Frank

Tynan, Bill

Ruane, Chris

Vis, Dr Rudi

Ruddock, Joan

Wallace, James

Russell, Bob (Colchester)

Walley, Ms Joan

Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)

Ward, Ms Claire

Ryan, Ms Joan

Watts, David

Salmond, Alex

Webb, Steve

Salter, Martin

White, Brian

Sanders, Adrian

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Sarwar, Mohammad

Wicks, Malcolm

Savidge, Malcolm

Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)

Sawford, Phil

Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)

Sedgemore, Brian

Willis, Phil

Shaw, Jonathan

Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

Shipley, Ms Debra

Woodward, Shaun

Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

Woolas, Phil

Skinner, Dennis

Worthington, Tony

Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

Wray, James

Smith, Angela (Basildon)

Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)

Wright, Tony (Cannock)

Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

Wyatt, Derek

Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

Smith, John (Glamorgan)

Tellers for the Noes:

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

Mr. Peter Snape and

Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)

Ann Keen.

Question accordingly negatived.
7.12 pm
Mr. Jamie Cann: I beg to move, as an amendment to the Question, to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Mr. John McWilliam".
My hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr. McWilliam) became an MP in 1979. I arrived rather later, in 1992, and bumped into him almost immediately.
70
He befriended me and became my mentor; he taught me all I know—not much, some would say, but he did his best. That is all that one can ask of a friend.
We were friends too when we were both members of the Select Committee on Defence and we went to Bosnia—it was in December or January and the temperature was about 15 deg below. Our party split up. I was sent up the mountain—three hours up the mountain—to visit Royal Engineers who were based in a derelict factory. I was there for two days. Funnily enough, John was in the warmth of Banja Luka in the battalion headquarters mess. However, our friendship survived that.
I am not asking hon. Members to vote for John because he is my friend, but for three main reasons. The first is his varied experience in the House. At present, he is Chairman of the Committee of Selection, so I advise Members to be nice to him. In opposition, he was shadow deputy Leader of the House. He has been a senior Labour Whip—so he knows where the bodies are buried—he has served on numerous Select Committees; he has been a senior member of the Speaker's Panel of Chairmen; and he is one of the Deputy Speakers in Westminster Hall.
In all those jobs, he has shown himself to be efficient and friendly and firm but fair. When people tell me that he is a hard Chairman, I say that, yes, he is a hard Chairman, but he is fair because he is hard with everybody—if they deserve it.
Secondly, John McWilliam's career has not just been inside the House; it has been outside too. Hon. Members would not think so to look at him, because he does not look old enough, but he came to this place in 1979. Before that, he had attended Napier college and Herriot-Watt college studying courses in science and technology. For several years, he was a telecommunications engineer. He was a member of the regional council of his union. For a period, he was treasurer of Edinburgh city council and he was an audit commissioner in Scotland. He has experience inside and outside this place.
Thirdly, my hon. Friend is not just a man of public affairs—he is an angler; he walks; he reads; he is a historian; he likes music; he has a wife and daughters; he has a huge, slavering dog; he lives in his constituency; he is a man of the people—one might say that he is a man in the round. Too many people in this place have become institutionalised. He loves the place, but it does not have a grip on him as it does on some others—taking us away from contact with the ordinary people whom we represent.
All in all, my hon. Friend is a man who is well qualified for the onerous duties of the Speaker. I urge hon. Members to support the amendment.
7.17 pm
Mrs. Helen Brinton: I am delighted to second the nomination of John McWilliam as Speaker of the House. John is a truly genuine moderniser, with a clear understanding of the benefits as well as the limitations of modern technology and with a wealth of experience of the procedures of the House. He has been—I shall now read a huge list—a former shadow deputy Leader of the House, a senior Labour Whip, a member of the Speaker's Panel of Chairmen and a Deputy Speaker in the new Westminster Hall. He sat on the Select Committees on Defence and on Liaison. Currently, he is chairman of the all—party parliamentary information technology group.

71
Before entering Parliament in 1979, as Member for Blaydon, John McWilliam worked as a telecommunications engineer and served as a regional council member of the communications workers union. He is a former city treasurer of Edinburgh. He has a wealth of experience not only inside the House, but, more important—because we need to relate to people outside—of the world outside.
What is important to me and to Members on both sides of the House is that John is a fair and independent-minded colleague, who has a clear understanding of the procedures of the House. That is absolutely vital for the job of Speaker.
I have known John as a colleague for many years and have always found him to be both impartial and fair. Indeed, when I first served on a Committee that he chaired, he was quick and clear in calling me to order—despite our friendship—and in instructing me about House and Committee procedures.
John understands the nonsense in procedure. More important, he understands how to put it right. He defends from the Chair the right of Back Benchers and minorities to have their say. Sometimes, he is prepared to do that not in a pussyfooting way, but in a very outspoken way indeed—in the tradition of Speakers Weatherill, Thomas and Boothroyd.
It is my belief that we should now accept that we are actually in the 21st century—not in the 18th—and that it is time that the occupant of the Speaker's Chair was seen to embody modern principles. John McWilliam is such a person. I believe that he has the courage and the drive to transform the House as it enters the 21st century.
For example, in this age of equality and the striving towards it, it is vital that we have facilities for families, babies and older children so that women—and, yes, men—are not put off entering the House and playing the fullest part in it. That is something that I feel very strongly about. I know that Members on both sides—both male and female—also feel strongly about it.
I am very pleased that there is now a technical solution, which has been suggested and supported by my hon. Friend, to the problem of a Member feeding her child while serving in Committee or taking part in a debate in the Chamber. A Room on the Committee Corridor and one adjacent to the Chamber could be set aside so that individual Members can feed their children and be kept up with the debate while they are away from it. My hon. Friend also believes that it is high time that we had a creche and a more predictable parliamentary year that is more geared to school holidays. I know that many Members on both sides—both male and female—would welcome that.
I believe that we need a senior, experienced Member in the Speaker's Chair who, while understanding and honouring the traditions of the House, has a real vision of how it must change in the future and who commands respect across all the parties. That is why I ask hon. Members to support John McWilliam today.
Sir Edward Heath: Mr. John McWilliam has been proposed and seconded. I give him the opportunity to submit himself to the House.
7.21 pm
Mr. John McWilliam: Thank you, Sir Edward, for this opportunity. It is a great honour and privilege to submit myself to the House and to my peers, a vast number of whom have suffered from or enjoyed my chairmanship over many years. I have always sought to be firm, I have always sought to be fair and I have always applied Standing Orders, even those with which I did not agree.
I have also always sought to make certain that the views of individual Members—regardless of their party and regardless of how aberrant those views might appear to their party or how popular those views might be—have been properly aired and that Members have listened to them. One of the worst things that we can do is shout down our colleagues and not to listen to them, and one of the most terrible things that Parliament could ever do would be to stifle debate and to stop the discussion of ideas with which we might not agree. However, the worst thing of all would be to produce a House that did not have clear, vigorous, entertaining and informative debates in which principles were not clearly enunciated. It is sometimes difficult to ensure that debate does not degenerate into mere personal abuse, but, if one uses one's common sense, such problems can be headed off.
Speaker Boothroyd is a splendid example and the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Mr. Campbell) said that her shoes would be very hard to fill. I am afraid that they will not fit those of us who are left in the race, because I am fairly certain that no one has shoes that size. Speaker Boothroyd's will be a hard act to follow because Betty was a good friend, a superb Speaker, a marvellous servant of the House and a superb ambassador in the rest of the world for democratic politics. She also worked very hard in the Commonwealth to promote the speakership and the role of democracy. It will be an incredibly hard act to follow, but it is a pleasure, at least, to be given the opportunity to put my name forward so that my colleagues can judge whether I am a suitable candidate.
Criticisms have been made that the House has become a poodle and a creature of the Executive. The Speaker can only lead in trying to counter such a development, because it is up to individual Members to have the courage to stand up and follow that lead if they do not want the House to be brought into disrepute. There are people in the governance of the country—not elected Members and not the Government, but people in the civil service and other institutions—who would dearly love to suppress the influence of Members and that of the House. That is something against which we must all fight, but it is up to the courage and the will of individual Members to do that. As I said, the Speaker can only lead.
Those Members who think that I unfairly called them to order in the past now have a chance for revenge, but those who are genuinely contrite about the fact that they were out of order now have a chance to show that contrition. I submit myself to the House.
Sir Edward Heath: The original Question was, "That Mr. Michael J. Martin do take the Chair of this House as Speaker", since when an amendment has been proposed to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Mr. John McWilliam".
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 30, Noes 309.

Division No. 306]

[7.26 pm

AYES

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

McDonnell, John

Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)

McWilliam, John

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Moran, Ms Margaret

Butterfill, John

Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)

Cann, Jamie

O'Hara, Eddie

Chope, Christopher

Pickles, Eric

Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)

Radice, Rt Hon Giles

Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Cummings, John

Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

Dalyell, Tam

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Temple—Morris, Peter

Day, Stephen

Thompson, William

George, Bruce (Walsall S)

White, Brian

Gorrie, Donald

Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd

Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

Hunter, Andrew

Tellers for the Ayes:

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Mrs. Helen Brinton and

Llwyd, Elfyn

Mr. Eric Martlew.

NOES

Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)

Cash, William

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Caton, Martin

Alexander, Douglas

Cawsey, lan

Allan, Richard

Chidgey, David

Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)

Chisholm, Malcolm

Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James

Clapham, Michael

Ashton, Joe

Clappison, James

Baker, Norman

Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

Ballard, Jackie

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Banks, Tony

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Barnes, Harry

Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)

Barron, Kevin

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Bayley, Hugh

Coaker, Vernon

Beard, Nigel

Coffey, Ms Ann

Begg, Miss Anne

Coleman, Iain

Bell, Martin (Tatton)

Connarty, Michael

Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)

Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)

Bennett, Andrew F

Cooper, Yvette

Benton, Joe

Corbett, Robin

Best, Harold

Corbyn, Jeremy

Betts, Clive

Corston, Jean

Blears, Ms Hazel

Cotter, Brian

Blizzard, Bob

Crausby, David

Blunt, Crispin

Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)

Boateng, Rt Hon Paul

Curry, Rt Hon David

Borrow, David

Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire

Bradley, Keith (Withington)

Darling, Rt Hon Alistair

Brake, Tom

Darvill, Keith

Brown, Rt Hon Gordon (Dunfermline E)

Davey, Edward (Kingston)

Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

Browne, Desmond

Davidson, lan

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

Buck, Ms Karen

Davis, Rt Hon Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

Burden, Richard

Dawson, Hilton

Burgon, Colin

Dean, Mrs Janet

Burnett, John

Denham, John

Burstow, Paul

Dismore, Andrew

Butler, Mrs Christine

Dobbin, Jim

Byers, Rt Hon Stephen

Dobson, Rt Hon Frank

Cable, Dr Vincent

Donohoe, Brian H

Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

Doran, Frank

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Dowd, Jim

Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife)

Drew, David

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

Campbell-Savours, Dale

Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

Canavan, Dennis

Edwards, Huw

Casale, Roger

Efford, Clive

74

Ellman, Mrs Louise

McAllion, John

Ennis, Jeff

McAvoy, Thomas

Etherington, Bill

McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)

Fearn, Ronnie

McDonagh, Siobhain

Fitzpatrick, Jim

McFall, John

Flint, Caroline

McGuire, Mrs Anne

Foster, Don (Bath)

McIntosh, Miss Anne

Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)

Mclsaac, Shona

Foster, Michael J (Worcester)

MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew

Galloway, George

McKenna, Mrs Rosemary

Gapes, Mike

Mackinlay, Andrew

Gardiner, Barry

McNamara, Kevin

Gerrard, Neil

McNulty, Tony

Gibb, Nick

Mactaggart, Fiona

Gidley, Sandra

Mc Walter, Tony

Gilroy, Mrs Linda

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Goggins, Paul

Major, Rt Hon John

Graham, Thomas

Mallaber, Judy

Green, Damian

Mandelson, Rt Hon Peter

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

Grocott, Bruce

Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)

Gummer, Rt Hon John

Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian

Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

Meale, Alan

Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

Merron, Gillian

Hancock, Mike

Michael, Rt Hon Alun

Hanson, David

Michie, Bill (Shefld Heeley)

Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet

Milburn, Rt Hon Alan

Harris, Dr Evan

Miller, Andrew

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

Moffatt, Laura

Healey, John

Moore, Michael

Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)

Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)

Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

Morley, Elliot

Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

Mountford, Kali

Hepburn, Stephen

Mudie, George

Heppell, John

Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

Hodge, Ms Margaret

Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)

Hood, Jimmy

Oaten, Mark

Hope, Phil

Olner, Bill

Hopkins, Kelvin

Öpik, Lembit

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Organ, Mrs Diana

Hoyle, Lindsay

Osborne, Ms Sandra

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

Paterson, Owen

Hurst, Alan

Pearson, lan

Hutton, John

Perham, Ms Linda

Iddon, Dr Brian

Pickthall, Colin

IlIsley, Eric

Pike, Peter L

Jamieson, David

Plaskitt, James

Jenkins, Brian

Pope, Greg

Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

Pound, Stephen

Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)

Powell, Sir Raymond

Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)

Prior, David

Keetch, Paul

Prosser, Gwyn

Kelly, Ms Ruth

Quinn, Lawrie

Kemp, Fraser

Rapson, Syd

Khabra, Piara S

Redwood, Rt Hon John

Kilfoyle, Peter

Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)

King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

Rendel, David

Kirkbride, Miss Julie

Robertson, Laurence

Kirkwood, Archy

Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)

Kumar, Dr Ashok

Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

Ladyman, Dr Stephen

Roche, Mrs Barbara

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Rogers, Allan

Lammy, David

Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff

Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Lepper, David

Rowlands, Ted

Leslie, Christopher

Roy, Frank

Levitt, Tom

Ruane, Chris

Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

Ruddock, Joan

Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen

Russell, Bob (Colchester)

Livsey, Richard

Ryan, Ms Joan

Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

Salmond, Alex

Love, Andrew

Sanders, Adrian

Luff, Peter

Sarwar, Mohammad

75

Savidge, Malcolm

Tonge, Dr Jenny

Sawford, Phil

Touhig, Don

Shaw, Jonathan

Trickett, Jon

Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian

Truswell, Paul

Skinner, Dennis

Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

Smith, Angela (Basildon)

Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)

Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)

Turner, Neil (Wigan)

Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

Twigg, Derek (Halton)

Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)

Tynan, Bill

Spellar, John

Tyrie, Andrew

Spicer, Sir Michael

Vaz, Keith

Squire, Ms Rachel

Vis, Dr Rudi

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

Wallace, James

Starkey, Dr Phyllis

Waterson, Nigel

Steinberg, Gerry

Watts, David

Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

Webb, Steve

Stinchcombe, Paul

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin

Whittingdale, John

Straw, Rt Hon Jack

Wicks, Malcolm

Stuart, Ms Gisela

Wilkinson, John

Sutcliffe, Gerry

Willis, Phil

Swayne, Desmond

Wilshire, David

Syms, Robert

Winterton Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Woodward, Shaun

Taylor, Ms Dart (Stockton S)

Woolas, Phil

Taylor, David (NW Leics)

Worthington, Tony

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Wray, James

Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)

Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth

Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

Wright, Tony (Cannock)

Timms, Stephen

Wyatt, Derek

Todd, Mark

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Peter Snape and

Ann Keen.

Question accordingly negatived.
7.37 pm
Mr. Tom King: I beg to move, as an amendment to the Question, to leave out "Mr. Michael. J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Mr. Michael Lord".
I have pleasure in moving the amendment proposing that my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and Ipswich, North (Mr. Lord) should occupy the position of Speaker in this House. I am sure that I am not the only hon. Member who, as we approach the end of this marathon performance, is unhappy about the procedure used and the manner in which it is evolving, and uneasy about the way in which we have moved through the various stages. With great respect to my hon. Friends the Members for South Staffordshire (Sir P. Cormack) and for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd), as well as other hon. Members in favour of whom an amendment may be moved, we are now moving into a possible contest between two current Deputy Speakers.
This electorate has been described as sophisticated. The House will be pleased to know that that certainly shortens my speech, as no one has any excuse for not knowing the qualities of my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and Ipswich, North, having been able to observe him in the Chair—that is the fairest judgment that the House can make. I have great admiration for Betty Boothroyd, but in a sense she did the House a disservice, as she may have concealed from it the difficulties involved in the role of Speaker, which she carried off with considerable aplomb and skill. I have had the privilege of serving in the House for more than 30 years, and have seen six Speakers in the Chair, three from the Conservative party and three from the Labour party.
76
I observed their characters and the different and considerable qualities that they brought to the position of Speaker. At one time or another, I witnessed each Speaker risk losing both the confidence of the House and control of it. Hon. Members who have seen only Betty Boothroyd in the Chair may not appreciate how fragile order is in the House, and may not realise how challenging and difficult the job of Speaker is.
Most of the early comments in the debate were rather inaccurate, but our remarks are becoming more accurate as we become better informed. For instance, hon. Members have referred to the tradition of alternating between the parties. That is not correct. The reality is that the Government party has tended to nominate the Speaker, and that rule was broken only in the case of Betty Boothroyd.
Speakers have sometimes come in in the mid-term of a Parliament and sometimes at a new Parliament. I have not found a case where a Speaker has come in in the last year of a Parliament. Every Member knows that this will be a difficult, contentious, argumentative and lively Session—possibly the last of this Parliament. It will be exceptionally challenging for the occupant of the Chair. Good humour, common sense and basic courage will be needed, as well as the qualities for which everyone has called: impartiality, fairness, integrity and respect for the traditions of the House. Those will be needed in full measure. It is the most daunting time at which to take over the responsibility of the Chair and the good name of this Parliament.
I am concerned about how this Parliament will proceed because our democracy depends ultimately on the willingness of this House to accept order and the authority of the Chair. I am delighted that the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Reed) is to second the motion. I understand that the fact that he sports a black eye at the moment has nothing to do with the tensions of this contest; he may have some more to say about how he incurred that injury.
I make no personal criticism of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin), who has occupied the Chair. However, it is interesting that he and the last candidate were the only two whose proposer and seconder came exclusively from the Labour side. On earlier occasions, the importance of a candidate having bipartisan support has been clear. The way in which the election may go is no secret, and I worry as to whether the integrity of the bipartisan approach can be sustained. That is no criticism of individuals or of their impartiality; it is an unfortunate feature of the present situation.
My hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and Ipswich, North will speak for himself; I will not detain the House by discussing his qualities. I would not be standing here if I did not have a high regard for his abilities. However, I did not know whether he would be any good as a Deputy Speaker. I was pleased when he was proposed to be a Deputy Speaker because he had been a Back Bencher, served on Select Committees and been on the Chairman's Panel. In my humble experience in life, I have found that one does not really know how people will perform in a particular role—whatever their qualifications, hopes and ambitions, or the enthusiasm of their supporters—until one actually sees them doing it.
Every single Member has seen my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and Ipswich, North in the Chair. If they consider him to be a candidate,

77
his qualification is that he has been able to show how he would discharge that responsibility in the Chair. In the present circumstances, I happen to believe that he is the best candidate to occupy the Chair. I have the greatest pleasure in proposing him.
Sir Edward Heath: I call on the seconder, Mr. Andrew Reed.
7.45 pm
Mr. Andrew Reed: It is always humbling to speak in this House, and I feel honoured to take part on a day such as today. However, as a new Member, I would like to think that I can read the mood of the House and I will therefore keep my comments extremely short.
I am appalled at the way in which we have conducted our business today. This is a House matter and one on which we thought that, at last, the House could have its say. The way in which we have conducted our business has made the Football Association look competent in finding an England manager. With a new Speaker and a new House, there will be an opportunity to make sure that, in future, we do not have to go through this ridiculous and ludicrous process again.
I agreed to second the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and Ipswich, North (Mr. Lord) and I was told that it would be a good clean fight. That has been the case and everyone who has spoken today is to be congratulated on the way in which they have conducted themselves.
In a sense, I should be grateful to the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and Ipswich, North for not recognising me very early in my time in the House. Fortunately, it was not in this Chamber that our paths first crossed. I play rugby, which is the explanation for the black eye that I am sporting today. I played on Saturday and came a bit of a cropper with my opposite fly-half, who had absolutely not a scratch to show for the elbow that he managed to put in my eye. [Interruption.] No, it was not my wife, who I hope is watching.
I first met the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and Ipswich, North at a game between the parliamentary rugby team from this House and our colleagues from New Zealand, held at Salford rugby league ground. On the previous evening, we had used the Granada studios to hold a mock debate with our New Zealand compatriots to show what things were really like. I was the only Member of Parliament from our House; the rest were others from the parliamentary team. Unfortunately, I was the only person on our team whom the hon. Gentleman did not recognise that evening.
The hon. Member for Central Suffolk and Ipswich, North has made amends for that in the time that we have spent since in building our friendship through the all-party rugby union group, of which he is president and I am secretary, and—just as important for both of us in terms of the way in which we share our faith—the parliamentary Christian fellowship.
There are some great strengths to be brought to the post of Speaker. Like most Back Benchers, I have spent my time trying to catch the Speaker's eye well past prime time—as this evening, in the seven to nine o'clock slot. It is at that stage that we appreciate the work of all the Deputy Speakers, who keep us in order. More important for those of us who feel that we have a contribution to
78
make, the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and Ipswich, North—and the other Deputy Speakers, to be fair—have always made sure that we have had a fair hearing and a chance to get our point of view across.
The skills that are required for the job include integrity, honesty and the need to make sure that Back Benchers' views are heard. Those of who us intend to stay on the Back Benches a little longer would want those to continue. The Speaker's is an extremely difficult job, particularly—as the right hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) said—at this time in a Parliament. It will not be easy for someone to slot into the position as we go into a general election, when the heated debates that we see at Prime Minister's Questions are carried over into other debates in the House.
I hear that the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and Ipswich, North has been described as "solid". I am not sure whether some of those who have said that have meant it negatively or positively. However, at this crucial stage in the Parliament, that quality will make a positive contribution to the way in which the House is run. The hon. Gentleman's integrity, and the trust that people have in him, mean that he will be able to conduct the business of the House efficiently. He will make sure that every one of us has a role to play in bringing the Executive to account.
There has been a lot of talk today about modernisation. With a young son aged 18 months, I would be one of the first to say that the hours of the House need to be organised so that we can at least see our families more often and in a better way than we do currently. That would also allow us to serve our constituents much better. We could spend time learning about things in our constituencies, and could bring them to the House when scrutinising Bills. The hon. Member for Central Suffolk and Ipswich, North has made clear his support for modernisation, but every candidate has done so. It is down to us as a House at last to grasp the issue. We failed to do so earlier today when we were not even able to secure a vote on the way in which we have treated ourselves today.
I hope that the new Speaker will allow the House to take the matter by the neck and to sort it out over the next six months. I hope that, following the general election, we return to a House of which the British people can be proud, and which they can understand—for at the moment, they do not. Watching today's debate, they will be horrified that we are spending such a long time going round in circles yet again. I hope that this election will be the catalyst for such changes. I believe that the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and Ipswich, North has the skills to steer the House through a very difficult period and I recommend him to the House.
Sir Edward Heath: Mr. Michael Lord has been proposed and seconded, and I give him the opportunity to submit himself to the House if he so wishes.
7.51 pm
Mr. Michael Lord: I am happy to submit myself to the House for the election of Speaker. After not being allowed to address the House for three and a half years, it seems strange to be doing so. It was not always thus, as hon. Members will know. Originally, the Speaker was just as his title

79
suggested, and represented the House's views to the sovereign of the day. Today, in speaking for the first time for a long time, I speak not on behalf of my constituents but for myself, which I find extremely difficult to do.
I should first like to thank my proposer and seconder for their encouragement, support and very kind words. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) is one of the wisest and most senior Members. His encouraging me to put my name forward and his staunch support throughout have been invaluable. The hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Reed), my friend, is not quite so senior but has many other things on his side—and I do not just mean youth. He has integrity and sincerity, and I know will go on to make huge contributions in the House. Despite his black eye, he is very gentle. I am truly grateful to both Members.
I should like to pay a brief tribute to our previous Speaker, Betty Boothroyd. It was a great honour and privilege to serve as one of her Deputy Speakers. Her advice was invaluable, her support for all her deputies unwavering. Most of all, as I know the House will agree, she was fun. She will be hugely missed by both the House and the nation, and I hope that she enjoys her retirement.
Our previous Speaker was famous for her high kicks in years gone by. Although I cannot possibly match her high kicks on the stage, I have in my time been responsible for many a high kick on the rugby field. If there is one unique thing about me among the candidates, it is that I am the only one who has played rugby against the South African Springboks. It is not a happy experience, from which one is lucky to emerge with only a black eye.
Perhaps it was on the sports field that my basic instinct for fairness was reinforced. To continue briefly in that sporting vein, applying it to the House of Commons, any referee worth his salt appreciates the need to judge quickly the mood of the game, not to interfere unnecessarily and to allow the game to flow. At the same time, of course, he must always maintain control without having to resort to red cards.
A memory, too, is important to the Speaker of the House. I do not know whether hon. Members realise that that was not always so. There was a time when the Speaker simply pointed to a Member without having to know their name. On one occasion, in its infinite wisdom, the House chose a cross-eyed Speaker. Every time the Speaker pointed, three people stood up. Since then, we have had to remember Members' names.
This is not the occasion on which to deal in detail with the problems that the House of Commons faces. The next Speaker, whoever that may be, will want to champion the rights of Back Benchers, ensure proper scrutiny of Government and maintain the importance of the House at the centre of our nation's democracy and decision making. I, too, would certainly want to take up those challenges as toughly as anyone who has spoken today.
This is the mother of Parliaments and in many ways it is still the envy of the world. The beauty of our system lies in its simplicity. Each Member works for and listens to their constituents, coming to the House of Commons to speak on their behalf. Although we are in the Palace of Westminster, this is a simple House of Commons. If Members of Parliament are doing their jobs properly and are heard in the House, we surely have the simplest and
80
best possible form of government. Back Benchers must be heard, and more often than they are at present. Their voices should be heard in more parts of our daily affairs.
I am particularly tired of the constant belittling of this House and the denigration of its Members by some sections of the press. The House and its new Speaker should, as far as they are able, do everything possible to counteract that tendency, which creates an entirely false impression of the work that we do here and of the quality of Members of Parliament. Such a tendency is a very corrosive influence in our national life.
Three and a half years ago, the House entrusted me with the role of Deputy Speaker, which I have thoroughly enjoyed. For three and a half years, all Members have seen me do that job. Only they know which qualities they want in the next Speaker. If they decide that I have those qualities, and decide to trust me, I will do everything in my power to repay that trust. I do not believe that the House will be disappointed.
Sir Edward Heath: The original Question was, "That Mr. Michael J. Martin do take the Chair of this House as Speaker", since when an amendment has been proposed to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Mr. Michael Lord".
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 146, Noes 290.

Division No. 307]

[7.57 pm

AYES

Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)

Fearn, Ronnie

Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James

Forth, Rt Hon Eric

Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

Fox, Dr Liam

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Fraser, Christopher

Ballard, Jackie

George, Andrew (St Ives)

Bercow, John

Gibb, Nick

Beresford, Sir Paul

Gidley, Sandra

Blunt, Crispin

Gill, Christopher

Body, Sir Richard

Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

Boswell, Tim

Gorman, Mrs Teresa

Brady, Graham

Gorrie, Donald

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Gray, James

Browning, Mrs Angela

Green, Damian

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Greenway, John

Burnett, John

Gummer, Rt Hon John

Butterfill. John

Hague, Rt Hon William

Campbell-Savours, Dale

Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie

Cash, William

Hammond, Philip

Chapman, Sir Sydney

Hayes, John

(Chipping Barnet)

Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)

Chope, Christopher

Horam, John

Clappison, James

Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh)

Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth

Hunter, Andrew

(Rushcliffe)

Jack. Rt Hon Michael

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

Collins, Tim

Jenkin, Bernard

Gran, James

Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles

Curry, Rt Hon David

(Ross Skye & Inverness W)

Dalyell, Tam

Kirkbride, Miss Julie

Davidson, Ian

Laing, Mrs Eleanor

Davies, Quentin (Grantham)

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)

Lansley, Andrew

Day, Stephen

Leigh, Edward

Donaldson, Jeffrey

Letwin, Oliver

Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen

Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)

Duncan Smith, Iain

Lidington, David

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Faber, David

Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)

Fabricant, Michael

Lord, Michael

81

Loughton, Tim

Steen, Anthony

Luff, Peter

Stinchcombe, Paul

McCartney, Robert (N Down)

Streeter, Gary

MacGregor, Rt Hon John

Stunell, Andrew

McIntosh, Miss Anne

Swayne, Desmond

MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew

Syms, Robert

Maclean, Rt Hon David

Tapsell, Sir Peter

McLoughlin, Patrick

Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)

Major, Rt Hon John

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Malins, Humfrey

Taylor, Sir Teddy

Maples, John

Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

Maude, Rt Hon Francis

Thompson, William

May, Mrs Theresa

Tipping, Paddy

Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)

Townend, John

Moss, Malcolm

Tredinnick, David

Nicholls, Patrick

Trend, Michael

Page, Richard

Tyler, Paul

Paice, James

Viggers, Peter

Paterson, Owen

Walter, Robert

Pickles, Eric

Wardle, Charles

Prior David

Waterson, Nigel

Randall, John

Wells, Bowen

Redwood, Rt Hon John

Whitney, Sir Raymond

Rendel, David

Whittingdale, John

Robertson, Laurence

Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann

Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd

Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff

Wilkinson, John

Rowe, Andrew (Faversham)

Willetts, David

Ruffley, David

Wilshire, David

Russell, Bob (Colchester)

Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

St Aubyn, Nick

Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)

Sayeed, Jonathan

Wyatt, Derek

Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)

Yeo, Tim

Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

Spicer, Sir Michael

Tellers for the Ayes:

Spring, Richard

Mr. Tom King and

Mr. Andrew Reed.

NOES

Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)

Burgon, Cohn

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Burstow, Paul

Alexander, Douglas

Byers, Rt Hon Stephen

Allan, Richard

Cable, Dr Vincent

Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)

Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

Ashton, Joe

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Baker, Norman

Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife)

Banks, Tony

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Barnes, Harry

Canavan, Dennis

Barron, Kevin

Casale, Roger

Bayley, Hugh

Caton, Martin

Beard, Nigel

Cawsey, lan

Begg, Miss Anne

Chidgey, David

Bell, Martin (Talton)

Chisholm, Malcolm

Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)

Clapham, Michael

Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)

Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)

Bennett, Andrew F

Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

Benton, Joe

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Bermingham, Gerald

Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)

Berry, Roger

Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

Best, Harold

Clelland, David

Betts, Clive

Clwyd, Ann

Blears, Ms Hazel

Coaker, Vernon

Blizzard, Bob

Coffey, Ms Ann

Boateng, Rt Hon Paul

Coleman, Iain

Borrow, David

Connarty, Michael

Bradley, Keith (Withington)

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Brake, Tom

Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)

Breed, Colin

Cooper, Yvette

Brown, Rt Hon Gordon (Dunfermline E)

Corbett, Robin

Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)

Cotter, Brian

Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

Cox, Tom

Browne, Desmond

Crausby, David

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Cummings, John

Buck, Ms Karen

Cunningham, Jim (CoVtry S)

Burden, Richard

Darling, Rt Hon Alistair

82

Darvill, Keith

Kirkwood, Archy

Davey, Edward (Kingston)

Kumar, Dr Ashok

Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

Ladyman, Dr Stephen

Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

Lammy, David

Davis, Rt Hon Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

Dean, Mrs Janet

Laxton, Bob

Denham, John

Lepper, David

Dismore, Andrew

Levitt, Tom

Dobbin, Jim

Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

Dobson, Rt Hon Frank

Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen

Donohoe, Brian H

Livsey, Richard

Doran, Frank

Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

Dowd, Jim

Llwyd, Elfyn

Drew, David

Love, Andrew

Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

McAllion, John

Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

McAvoy, Thomas

Efford, Clive

McCabe, Steve

Ellman, Mrs Louise

McCartney, Rt Hon lan

Ennis, Jeff

(Makerfield)

Etherington, Bill

McDonagh, Siobhain

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Macdonald, Calum

Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

McDonnell, John

Flint, Caroline

McFall, John

Foster, Don (Bath)

McGuire, Mrs Anne

Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)

Mclsaac, Shona

Foster, Michael J (Worcester)

McKenna, Mrs Rosemary

Gapes, Mike

Mackinlay, Andrew

Gardiner, Barry

McNamara, Kevin

George, Bruce (Walsall S)

McNulty, Tony

Gerrard, Neil

Mactaggart, Fiona

Gilroy, Mrs Linda

McWalter, Tony

Goggins, Paul

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Graham, Thomas

Mallaber, Judy

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)

Grocott, Bruce

Marshall—Andrews, Robert

Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

Martlew, Eric

Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

Meale, Alan

Hancock, Mike

Merron, Gillian

Hanson, David

Michael, Rt Hon Alun

Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet

Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

Milburn, Rt Hon Alan

Healey, John

Miller, Andrew

Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

Moffatt, Laura

Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

Moore, Michael

Hepburn, Stephen

Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)

Heppell, John

Morley, Elliot

Hodge, Ms Margaret

Mountford. Kali

Hood, Jimmy

Mudie, George

Hope, Phil

Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

Hopkins, Kelvin

Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Oaten, Mark

Hoyle, Lindsay

O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)

Olner, Bill

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

O'Neill, Martin

Humble, Mrs Joan

Opik, Lembit

Hutton, John

Organ, Mrs Diana

Iddon, Dr Brian

Osborne, Ms Sandra

Illsley, Eric

Pearson, Ian

Jamieson, David

Perham, Ms Linda

Jenkins, Brian

Pickthall, Colin

Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

Pike, Peter L

Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)

Plaskitt, James

Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)

Pond, Chris

Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

Pope, Greg

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

Pound, Stephen

Keeble, Ms Sally

Powell, Sir Raymond

Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

Keetch, Paul

Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Kelly, Ms Ruth

Prosser, Gwyn

Kemp, Fraser

Quinn, Lawrie

Khabra, Piara S

Rammell, Bill

Kilfoyle, Peter

Rapson, Syd

King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

Raynsford, Nick

Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)

Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)

83

Rogers, Allan

Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Taylor, Ms Dad (Stockton S)

Rowlands, Ted

Taylor, David (NW Leics)

Roy, Frank

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Ruane, Chris

Temple-Morris, Peter

Ruddock, Joan

Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)

Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)

Timms, Stephen

Ryan, Ms Joan

Todd, Mark

Salmond, Alex

Tonge, Dr Jenny

Sanders, Adrian

Touhig, Don

Samar, Mohammad

Trickett, Jon

Savidge, Malcolm

Truswell, Paul

Sawford, Phil

Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

Shaw, Jonathan

Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

Skinner, Dennis

Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)

Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

Turner, Neil (Wigan)

Smith, Angela (Basildon)

Twigg, Derek (Halton)

Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)

Tynan, Bill

Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

Vis, Dr Rudi

Smith Jacqui (Redditch)

Watts, David

Smith, John (Glamorgan)

Webb, Steve

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

White, Brian

Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Soley , Clive

Wicks, Malcolm

Southworth, Ms Helen

Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)

Spellar, John

Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)

Squire, Ms Rachel

Willis, Phil

Starkey, Dr Phyllis

Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

Steinberg, Gerry

Woodward, Shaun

Stewart, David (Inverness E)

Woolas, Phil

Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

Worthington, Tony

Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin

Wray, James

Straw, Rt Hon Jack

Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

Stringer, Graham

Tellers for the Noes:

Stuart, Ms Gisela

Mr. Peter Snape and

Sutcliffe, Gerry

Ann Keen.

Question accordingly negatived.
8.10 pm
Mrs. Gillian Shephard: I beg to move, as an amendment to the Question, to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Sir Patrick Cormack".
It is a privilege to propose the name of my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir P. Cormack) for election as Speaker.
The election comes at a time which is particularly important for Parliament, and therefore and by definition for the future of the democratic process in our country. The House, in the words of The Times leader last Friday, has become
increasingly sidelined by the executive, the courts, the media and by Europe.
Perhaps there has not been a time in its history when it has been more in need of a doughty defender, who by definition would him or herself be a defender of the voice of the electorate between elections, because that is what the House should be.
The successful candidate should therefore be able to demonstrate, first, independence and impartiality. That my hon. Friend has consistently done so throughout his more than 30 years as a Member, is a fact to which his colleagues, and perhaps more particularly successive generations of Whips, can certainly attest. However, through his work for The House Magazine, the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the
84
all-party arts and heritage group, his impartiality is also well known and respected by Members on both sides of the House.
My hon. Friend has a well-earned reputation for his respect for Parliament, his knowledge of parliamentary procedure and his desire at all times that the House, when appropriate, should have its say and also its way. In a note circulated to all colleagues he states as his prime purpose to do what he can
to restore Parliament to the centre of the nation's public life and the Chamber to the centre of Parliament's.
He is on record, passim in the Official Report, but also in his own publications, as being passionate about the centrality of the House to the democratic process.
My hon. Friend recognises of course that all successful institutions must adapt to changing times, but in the case of Parliament, only in a way which enhances and not diminishes its democratic role. It is at this moment in its history that the House needs a passionate defender of its rights, and those of its Members, and I strongly believe that my hon. Friend has both the passion and the strength required.
Clearly the qualities that my hon. Friend so obviously possesses would be of little use had he not also demonstrated for many years now his ability and authority in the Chair. As a member of the Chairmen's Panel from 1983 to 1997, he has won respect and admiration for his fairness, patience and knowledge.
The route to the Speaker's Chair can take at least two paths. There is the one which leads via the Government or Opposition Front Bench, for which there are certainly distinguished precedents or—I believe this to be more correct and preferable—the one leading from a multiplicity of Back-Bench activities. I make that point because I see the role of Speaker, as does my hon. Friend, as defender of the House against the Executive when such a defence is needed.
As a former member of the Modernisation Committee, my hon. Friend has a positive attitude to improving procedure and protecting and enhancing the role of Back Benchers. He rightly believes, however, that such change is a matter for the House itself, working through a Speaker's Conference that he would initiate.
Finally, the House has become accustomed, during the period in office of Madam Speaker Boothroyd, to colour, wit and humour in the Chair. It would be sad if her successor as the representative of parliamentary democracy in our country—that representative role is increasingly important—were not able to demonstrate likewise colour, wit and humour. That my hon. Friend would certainly be able to do. I urge the House to support the amendment.
8.14 pm
Mr. Tam Dalyell: Let us be candid: few of my right hon. and hon. Friends think that the hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir P. Cormack) is a paragon of virtue.
Mr. Pound: No!
Mr. Dalyell: My hon. Friend denies that.
The hon. Member for South Staffordshire has a tendency towards pomposity, but that is not unique in this assembly. There are 649 others who have a tendency towards pomposity.

85
However, the hon. Gentleman has some rare virtues. First, those who have sat under him in Committee know that he is a formidable and fair Chairman. He is also a distinguished member of the Speaker's Panel. When working under him in Committee, one understands that he has qualities that should be considered for the speakership. Those of us who were at the hustings this morning organised by my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice) will recognise that the hon. Gentleman gave a performance of considerable quality.
I suppose, secondly, that this is a delicate matter as far as you and I are concerned, Sir Edward, but the hon. Gentleman has another quality, and that is that he is a brave man. He was brave enough on many occasions to take on Margaret Thatcher in her heyday. He defied her on the abolition of the Greater London council and on many other matters during those years. These are things that we do not forget. When we are in the adversity of opposition, it is heartening to see some Members sticking up for what they think is right, against a formidable Prime Minister and a disciplinarian machine that is backing her up. That is why many Labour Members have a great deal of time for the hon. Gentleman.
The hon. Gentleman, thirdly, would represent the House in a distinguished way when the Speaker goes abroad. As a member of the all-party arts and heritage group—I hasten to say that we pay our own way—I have travelled with him on six occasions. Sometimes there have been difficult speeches to make in places such as Prague and Athens. He has always been a credit to the House when he has spoken.
Much has been said in the past six hours about getting home early. I would not do the hon. Gentleman's cause much good by going on any longer. However, he is a Member who should be considered. Members should reflect on whether he is worth a vote.
8.18 pm
Sir Patrick Cormack: I shall try not to be too pompous. I am sure that I speak for every Member in congratulating you, Sir Edward, on a marathon sitting. You said at the beginning—I think that your views have been echoed in all parts of the House—that you were less than entirely happy with this form of procedure. I think that I am not being too controversial when I say that most of us who have sat through these proceedings—I have heard every syllable uttered—feel that whoever is Speaker after today would be well advised to ask the appropriate Committee to take an early look at the way in which the Speaker is chosen in future, and perhaps to consider the Canadian system, where the election is conducted entirely by secret ballot, supervised by the Clerks.
It is indeed a great honour merely to be proposed for the office of Speaker, and I am deeply grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for South-West Norfolk (Mrs. Shephard) and to my friend, the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell), for their generous remarks when proposing me. It is quite something to be thought, even by a few colleagues, to be a worthy successor to Madam Speaker Boothroyd. Whoever succeeds her will have a daunting task, and not just because of her own formidable qualities.
As Madam Speaker Boothroyd said in her valedictory address, there is much to be done to redeem Parliament's reputation and influence. My right hon. Friend the
86
Member for South-West Norfolk referred to the statement that I issued. It must be the new Speaker's prime purpose to help put Parliament back at the centre of the nation's public life, and the Chamber at the centre of Parliament's. Far too many of those whom we represent do not see Parliament's relevance to their daily lives. Far too many of those who provide them with their information ignore it, and to be honest, far too many of us on both sides of the House seek to exercise our influence through the media, to the neglect of our responsibilities here.
Those are problems that cannot be tackled by the Speaker alone, but the Speaker has a central and pivotal role in tackling them. Scrupulously and rigorously impartial, the Speaker is not in the Chair to make life easy for either Government or Opposition, but rather to give each hon. Member—we are all equal here—a proper opportunity to pursue a question or defend a cause, regardless of party, position or seniority.
Of course, the Speaker cannot dictate the business of the House, but as a Back Bencher who has made three successful applications for emergency debates in my time here, I am well aware that the Speaker can help to ensure that we debate the issues that trouble those who send us here. One of the reasons for Parliament's loss of influence is that we are far too often seen to be discussing the arcane, rather than the urgent. One of the reasons that our institution is under increasing criticism is that we often seem to be too subservient.
I sometimes think that we too rarely recall what has been achieved in the past by individual crusading Members—people such as Eleanor Rathbone, Alan Herbert, Sydney Silverman and my own great parliamentary hero, William Wilberforce. Courageous, innovative, independent-minded Members should always feel that they have an ally in that Chair.
There are, rightly, strict limitations on the power of the Speaker who, at the end of the day, must never go against what the House directs, but I would wish to encourage attendance and spontaneity in every major debate by setting aside a period when hon. Members could genuinely catch the Speaker's eye.
Because I am so concerned at the decline in Parliament's influence, I would wish to establish a standing Speaker's Conference which would include representatives from each party, with a broad agenda to include the relationship of Chamber to Committees and the structure of the parliamentary day and year. In that context, it is clearly important that we recognise that Parliament's hours of sitting have changed many times over the centuries, and that Members of Parliament have personal and family obligations.
Like Madam Speaker Boothroyd, I am very conscious of the Speaker's public role as the voice and representative of the Commons. Only the Speaker can represent this place and all its Members, and remind the courts and other public bodies of the rights and duties of the elected House in a sovereign Parliament.
Whoever wins the approbation of the House today will have a difficult task. It will not be easy, either, for any of the candidates to forsake a gregarious parliamentary life for the relative loneliness of the Chair, although for me at least, the thought of no more Whips makes that prospect bearable.
I know that there are those who see me primarily as a traditionalist. It is true that I love this place, but I see no point in clinging to the trappings of a great legislative

87
assembly if we do not introduce reforms that will bring more effective power back to the Chamber. I have no desire to become the curator of a museum to democracy.
I would, however, like to play a part in a totally and fiercely non-partisan way in injecting new life into that democracy—a democracy that has often been improved and reformed in the past by those who understood its roots and cherished its history. I hope, Sir Edward, that even at this late hour, the House will consider giving me the opportunity to join their number.
Sir Edward Heath: The original Question was, "That Mr. Michael J. Martin do take the Chair of this House as Speaker", since when an amendment has been proposed to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Sir Patrick Cormack".
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 130, Noes 287.

Division No. 308]

[8.25 pm

AYES

Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)

Gorman, Mrs Teresa

Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James

Gorrie, Donald

Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

Gray, James

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Green, Damian

Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)

Greenway, John

Bercow, John

Grieve, Dominic

Blunt, Crispin

Hague, Rt Hon William

Body, Sir Richard

Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie

Boswell, Tim

Hayes, John

Brady, Graham

Healey, John

Brazier, Julian

Horam, John

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

Browning, Mrs Angela

Jenkin, Bernard

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness W)

Burnett, John

Kidney, David

Burstow, Paul

King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

Butterfill, John

Kirkbride, Miss Julie

Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife)

Laing, Mrs Eleanor

Campbell-Savours, Dale

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

Lansley, Andrew

Chope, Christopher

Leigh, Edward

Clappison, James

Letwin, Oliver

Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)

Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)

Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh)

Lidington, David

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Collins, Tim

Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)

Cran, James

Llwyd, Elfyn

Curry, Rt Hon David

Loughton, Tim

Dalyell, Tam

Luff, Peter

Davies, Quentin (Grantham)

McCartney, Robert (N Down)

Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)

MacGregor, Rt Hon John

Day, Stephen

McIntosh, Miss Anne

Donaldson, Jeffrey

MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew

Duncan, Alan

Maclean, Rt Hon David

Duncan Smith, Iain

McLoughlin, Patrick

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Major, Rt Hon John

Faber, David

Mitchell, Austin

Fearn, Ronnie

Moss, Malcolm

Flight, Howard

Nicholls, Patrick

Forth, Rt Hon Eric

Oaten, Mark

Fox, Dr Liam

Paice, James

Fraser, Christopher

Paterson, Owen

George, Andrew (St Ives)

Pickles, Eric

Gill, Christopher

Prior, David

Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

Randall, John

Raynsford, Nick

Robertson, Laurence

88

Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

Thompson, William

Rowe, Andrew (Faversham)

Tipping, Paddy

Ruffley, David

Townend, John

St Aubyn, Nick

Tredinnick, David

Salmond, Alex

Trend, Michael

Sayeed, Jonathan

Walter, Robert

Sheerman, Barry

Waterson, Nigel

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Wells, Bowen

Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian

Whittingdale, John

Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)

Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann

Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

Wigley, Rt Hon Datydd

Spicer, Sir Michael

Wilkinson, John

Steen, Anthony

Willetts, David

Stinchcombe, Paul

Wilshire, David

Streeter, Gary

Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

Swayne, Desmond

Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)

Syms, Robert

Young, Rt Hon Sir George

Tapsell, Sir Peter

Taylor, lan (Esher & Walton)

Tellers for the Ayes:

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Sir Raymond Powell and

Taylor, Sir Teddy

Mr. Gerald Howarth.

NOES

Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)

Connarty, Michael

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Alexander, Douglas

Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)

Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)

Cooper, Yvette

Ashton, Joe

Corbett, Robin

Baker, Norman

Corston, Jean

Ballard, Jackie

Cotter, Brian

Barnes, Harry

Cox, Tom

Barron, Kevin

Crausby, David

Bayley, Hugh

Cummings, John

Beard, Nigel

Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)

Begg, Miss Anne

Darling, Rt Hon Alistair

Bell, Martin (Tatton)

Darvill, Keith

Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)

Davey, Edward (Kingston)

Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)

Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

Benton, Joe

Davidson, Ian

Bermingham, Gerald

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Berry, Roger

Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

Best, Harold

Davis, Rt Hon Terry

Betts, Clive

(B'ham Hodge H)

Blears, Ms Hazel

Dawson, Hilton

Blizzard, Bob

Dean, Mrs Janet

Boateng, Rt Hon Paul

Denham, John

Borrow, David

Dismore, Andrew

Bradley, Keith (Withington)

Dobbin, Jim

Brake, Tom

Dobson, Rt Hon Frank

Brown, Rt Hon Gordon

Donohoe, Brian H

(Dunfermline E)

Doran, Frank

Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)

Dowd, Jim

Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

Drew, David

Browne, Desmond

Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Eagle, Maria (L pool Garston)

Buck, Ms Karen

Edwards, Huw

Burden, Richard

Efford, Clive

Burgon, Colin

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Byers, Rt Hon Stephen

Ennis, Jeff

Cable, Dr Vincent

Etherington, Bill

Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Flint, Caroline

Canavan, Dennis

Foster, Don (Bath)

Casale, Roger

Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)

Caton, Martin

Foster, Michael J (Worcester)

Cawsey, lan

Galloway, George

Chidgey, David

Gapes, Mike

Chisholm, Malcolm

Gardiner, Barry

Clapham, Michael

Gerrard, Neil

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Gilroy, Mrs Linda

Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)

Goggins, Paul

Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

Graham, Thomas

Clelland, David

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Coaker, Vernon

Griffiths, Win (Bddgend)

Coffey, Ms Ann

Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

Coleman, Iain

Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

89

Hancock, Mike

Michie, Bill (Shefld Heeley)

Hanson, David

Milburn, Rt Hon Alan

Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet

Miller, Andrew

Harris, Dr Evan

Moffatt, Laura

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

Moore, Michael

Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)

Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)

Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)

Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

Morley, Elliot

Hepburn, Stephen

Mountford, Kali

Heppell, John

Mudie, George

Hodge, Ms Margaret

Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

Hood, Jimmy

Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)

Hope, Phil

O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

Hopkins, Kelvin

O'Hara, Eddie

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Olner, Bill

Hoyle, Lindsay

O'Neill, Martin

Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)

Öpik, Lembit

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

Organ, Mrs Diana

Humble, Mrs Joan

Osborne, Ms Sandra

Hutton, John

Pearson, Ian

Iddon, Dr Brian

Perham, Ms Linda

Illsley, Eric

Pickthall, Colin

Jamieson, David

Pike, Peter L

Jenkins, Brian

Plaskitt, James

Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

Pollard, Kerry

Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)

Pond, Chris

Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)

Pope, Greg

Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

Pound, Stephen

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

Keeble, Ms Sally

Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)

Prosser, Gwyn

Keetch, Paul

Quinn, Lawrie

Kelly, Ms Ruth

Rammell, Bill

Kemp, Fraser

Rapson, Syd

Khabra, Piara S

Rendel, David

Kilfoyle, Peter

Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)

King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

Rogers, Allan

Kumar, Dr Ashok

Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff

Ladyman, Dr Stephen

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Lammy, David

Rowlands, Ted

Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

Roy, Frank

Laxton, Bob

Ruane, Chris

Lepper, David

Ruddock, Joan

Leslie, Christopher

Russell, Bob (Colchester)

Levitt, Tom

Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)

Lewis, lvan (Bury S)

Ryan, Ms Joan

Livsey, Richard

Sanders, Adrian

Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

Sarwar, Mohammad

Love, Andrew

Savidge, Malcolm

McAllion, John

Sawford, Phil

McAvoy, Thomas

Sedgemore, Brian

McCabe, Steve

Shaw, Jonathan

McCafferty, Ms Chris

Skinner, Dennis

McCartney, Rt Hon lan (Makerfield)

Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

McDonagh, Siobhain

Smith, Angela (Basildon)

McDonnell, John

Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)

McFall, John

Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

McGuire, Mrs Anne

Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

Mclsaac, Shona

Smith, John (Glamorgan)

McKenna, Mrs Rosemary

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

Mackinlay, Andrew

Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)

McNamara, Kevin

Southworth, Ms Helen

McNulty, Tony

Spellar, John

Mactaggart, Fiona

Squire, Ms Rachel

McWalter, Tony

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Starkey, Dr Phyllis

Mallaber, Judy

Steinberg, Gerry

Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

Stewart, David (Inverness E)

Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)

Stewart, lan (Eccles)

Martlew, Eric

Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin

Maxton, John

Straw, Rt Hon Jack

Meale, Alan

Stringer, Graham

Merron, Gillian

Stuart, Ms Gisela

Michael, Rt Hon Alun

Sutcliffe, Gerry

Taylor, Ms Dad (Stockton S)

90

Taylor, David (NW Leics)

Vis, Dr Rudi

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Walley, Ms Joan

Temple-Morris, Peter

Watts, David

Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)

Webb, Steve

Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

White, Brian

Timms, Stephen

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Todd, Mark

Wicks, Malcolm

Tonge, Dr Jenny

Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)

Touhig, Don

Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)

Trickett, Jon

Willis, Phil

Truswell, Paul

Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

Tumer, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

Woodward, Shaun

Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

Woolas, Phil

Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)

Wray, James

Turner, Neil (Wigan)

Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

Twigg, Derek (Halton)

Tynan, Bill

Tellers for the Noes:

Vaz, Keith

Mr. Peter Snape and

Ann Keen.

Question accordingly negatived.
Sir Edward Heath: I call Mr. Martin Bell to move an amendment in favour of Mr. Richard Shepherd.
8.37 pm
Mr. Martin Bell: I beg to move, as an amendment to the Question, to leave out "Mr. Michael J. Martin" and insert instead thereof "Mr. Richard Shepherd".
Sir Edward, the hour calls for brevity. Brevity is in my nature, and the cause for which I rise is simply stated. It is to suggest that the name of the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) be inserted as an amendment, by nature of the quality of the man.
What a debate we have had. The speeches have been short and of high quality. The whipping was either non-existent or indiscernible. Would that it were always so. The challenges that the House faces have been widely stated. They include an erosion of its authority, reputation and influence by a more assertive judiciary, a more aggressive press and the burgeoning power of the Executive. If we wish to complain about that, the fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in ourselves. It is up to us. We can make a difference because in the end we do not represent parties; we represent people, every one of us. I think that this is a time when we can make a difference. I cannot imagine a more important debate and series of votes than those taking place tonight.
I honestly believe that we have an opportunity. I mention the name of the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills because he is the right man for this time. He is widely respected on both sides of the House. His proposer and seconder come from different sides of the House. For 18 years he has been a tireless champion of many causes of liberty and libertarian causes, such as freedom of information. The fight now is for the freedom of the people and of the House, which now has to be campaigned for as much as ever.
I shall mention something that Wentworth said in 1575, when he criticised the subservience of the House to the power of the Executive, which was then the royal family. He said:
There is nothing so necessary for the preservation of the prince and state as free speech, and without it it is a scorn and mockery to call it a Parliament house, for in truth it is none but a very school of flattery and dissimulation.

91
For that, the Queen had him locked up in the Tower of London the next day.
The cause is less conspicuous now, but the need is as urgent as it ever was to restore the dignity and reputation of the House. I believe that there is a man who, as Speaker, would be eminently well qualified to do the job. That man is the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills and I commend his name to the House.
8.40 pm
Tony Wright: It gives me great pleasure to second the nomination of the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd). If I may breach a parliamentary convention, I shall call him my hon. Friend, because we have campaigned together on causes that should engage everyone in the House. He is concerned about the rights of citizens, and he campaigns against official secrecy, to protect whistleblowers, and for the freedom of information.
I remember above all an occasion in the last Parliament when Sir Richard Scott had delivered his devastating report, alleging that Ministers had behaved as they should not have behaved. That produced a motion of censure in the House. It was a difficult moment because it required hon. Members to choose between Parliament, accountability, sovereignty—all those fine words that we use—and the pressures of party, Whips and discipline. On that day, two hon. Members in the Government party voted for Parliament, and one of them was the person whom I am seconding. He does not just talk about the rights of Parliament; he protects those rights and asserts them when it matters.
If one theme has been constant throughout the contributions, including those by all the candidates, it is that something is wrong with the House of Commons that must be put right. The question before the House is: how determined is it to put that right?
I commend my hon. Friend to the House because I believe that the moment has arrived for a shock to the system. Whatever else my hon. Friend would be, he would be a shock to the system. Either hon. Members believe that we have reached a point when a shock is required, or they believe that business as usual will do. That is the choice. This institution has arrived at that moment. It is no good saying that it will be the job of some future Speaker whom we may elect to put matters right. The job of putting them right rests with all of us in the House now. It is no good talking afterwards about the glories of Parliament and the need for reform, unless we are prepared now to administer the shock to the system that may produce that change.
I know that the person whom I am recommending is said to be an outsider. My goodness, he is. He is as far away from the usual channels as it is possible to get, and that is why I recommend him to hon. Members.
Sir Edward Heath: Mr. Richard Shepherd has been proposed and seconded. I now invite him to submit himself to the House if he so wishes.
8.44 pm
Mr. Richard Shepherd: In a sense, I am the least qualified of all the candidates who have stood in front of hon. Members today. In fact, my disqualifications fill a long sheet. I am one of the few Conservative Members to have lost the Whip. I have tried to vote against my party when I thought that it was wrong. It is claimed that I am emotional, and it is true that in Parliament I am emotional. I am emotional because I profoundly believe in the purpose of the House, and I think that that view is shared by many people. I hope that in that emotionalism I have used argument, reason, principle and conscience. Those are things that I think unite many Members.
In a sense, the House is experiencing a crisis. With the redevelopment of our constitution, we are in a remarkable state—a state in which the House of Lords, no less, is more vital and more vibrant, and checks authority and the executive power more meaningfully than is done here. How can it be that we, the elected representatives of the people, no longer effectively challenge Government? That is what we are asking people to reflect on.
I sense a great discontent among ourselves, on both sides of the House. We do not discuss measures that are timely, or matters that are important. We had only one Standing Order No. 24 emergency debate during the eight years in which the previous Speaker was Speaker. How can we be timely? How can we reflect the needs of those who sent us here?
I am mindful that I can stand in this House on equal terms with anyone—with a head of Government, with a Minister—because I, like such people, have been elected by an individual constituency. We should never forget that that is the first trust that sends us here.
To whom do we owe our allegiance? My party is very vigorous in trying to get rid of people, and a long time ago when it was trying to get rid of Winston Churchill, he was asked to whom he owed his allegiance. He said first to his country, then to his constituency, and thirdly to his party.
When party becomes so aggressive that it consumes our conscience—when we no longer discuss the politics that are the laws that form the way in which we live; when we accept that the House of Lords will now be dealing with legislation and the points that we raise with regard to that legislation, and that ultimately the Executive will deal not with us, the elected representatives, but with the appointees who now sit at the other end of this Parliament—there is a crisis, in a sense. We ought to assert and affirm that our first intent is to represent those who sent us here.
I have seen Members on both sides of the House in both Lobbies—I have been through more than one Lobby on occasions such as this—whose tears have flowed, and whose conscience has been sensitive; yet they have voted against issues that they have stood for during their parliamentary careers.
The right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) said that he was leaving this place to take up politics. Most of us came here because we believed in politics. We believed that this was the fulcrum where we could dispose of the business of our country. If I am given the honour

93
of representing this House, I want to ensure that each one of us—wherever we come from, and whomever we represent—is able to do just that.
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 136, Noes 282.

Division No. 309]

[8.48 pm

AYES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James

Kirkbride, Miss Julie

Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Lansley, Andrew

Baker, Norman

Leigh, Edward

Ballard, Jackie

Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)

Bell, Martin (Tatton)

Lidington, David

Bercow, John

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Blunt, Crispin

Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)

Body, Sir Richard

Loughton, Tim

Boswell, Tim

Luff, Peter

Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

McCartney, Robert (N Down)

Brady, Graham

McIntosh, Miss Anne

Brake, Tom

MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew

Brazier, Julian

Maclean, Rt Hon David

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

McLoughlin, Patrick

Browning, Mrs Angela

Major, Rt Hon John

Bruce, lan (S Dorset)

Maples, John

Burnett, John

Marshall-Andrews, Robert

Butterfill, John

Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Mitchell, Austin

Cash, William

Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)

Cawsey, Ian

Mullin, Chris

Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

Nicholls, Patrick

Chidgey, David

Oaten, Mark

Chope, Christopher

Opik, Lembit

Clappison, James

Paterson, Owen

Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)

Pearson, lan

Collins, Tim

Pickles, Eric

Cooper, Yvette

Prior, David

Cotter, Brian

Radice, Rt Hon Giles

Curry, Rt Hon David

Randall, John

Dalyell, Tam

Robertson, Laurence

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

Davies, Quentin (Grantham)

Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff

Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)

Ruffley, David

Day, Stephen

Russell, Bob (Colchester)

Donaldson, Jeffrey

St Aubyn, Nick

Duncan, Alan

Salmond, Alex

Duncan Smith, Iain

Sayeed, Jonathan

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Sheerrnan, Barry

Faber, David

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Fearn, Ronnie

Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian

Fisher, Mark

Shepherd, Richard

Flynn, Paul

Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

Fraser, Christopher

Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)

George, Andrew (St lves)

Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

Gibb, Nick

Spicer, Sir Michael

Gill, Christopher

Steen, Anthony

Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

Stunell, Andrew

Gorman, Mrs Teresa

Swayne, Desmond

Gorrie, Donald

Syms, Robert

Gray, James

Tapsell, Sir Peter

Green, Damian

Taylor, lan (Esher & Walton)

Grieve, Dominic

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Hague, Rt Hon William

Thompson, William

Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie

Todd, Mark

Hayes, John

Tonge, Dr Jenny

Horam, John

Townend, John

Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

Tredinnick, David

Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

Trend, Michael

Jenkin, Bernard

Tyrie, Andrew

Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)

Walter, Robert

Key, Robert

Waterson, Nigel

Wells, Bowen

94

Whittingdale, John

Wright, Tony (Cannock)

Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann

Wilkinson, John

Wilshire, David

Tellers for the Ayes:

Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

Sir Teddy Taylor and

Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)

Mr. Eric Forth.

NOES

Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)

Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Davidson, lan

Alexander, Douglas

Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)

Davis, Rt Hon Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

Ashton, Joe

Dawson, Hilton

Banks, Tony

Dean, Mrs Janet

Barnes, Harry

Denham, John

Barron, Kevin

Dismore, Andrew

Bayley, Hugh

Dobbin, Jim

Beard, Nigel

Dobson, Rt Hon Frank

Begg, Miss Anne

Donohoe, Brian H

Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)

Doran, Frank

Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)

Dowd, Jim

Benton, Joe

Drew, David

Bermingham, Gerald

Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

Best, Harold

Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

Betts, Clive

Edwards, Huw

Blears, Ms Hazel

Efford, Clive

Blizzard, Bob

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Boateng, Rt Hon Paul

Ennis, Jeff

Borrow, David

Etherington, Bill

Bradley, Keith (Withington)

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Brown, Rt Hon Gordon (Dunfermline E)

Flint, Caroline

Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)

Foster, Don (Bath)

Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)

Browne, Desmond

Foster, Michael J (Worcester)

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Foulkes, George

Buck, Ms Karen

Gapes, Mike

Burden, Richard

Gardiner, Barry

Burgon, Colin

Gerrard, Neil

Burstow, Paul

Gidley, Sandra

Byers, Rt Hon Stephen

Gilroy, Mrs Linda

Cable, Dr Vincent

Goggins, Paul

Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

Graham, Thomas

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife)

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Campbell-Savours, Dale

Grocott, Bruce

Canavan, Dennis

Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

Casale, Roger

Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

Caton, Martin

Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

Hancock, Mike

Chisholm, Malcolm

Hanson, David

Clapham, Michael

Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet

Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Healey, John

Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)

Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)

Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

Clelland, David

Henderson, lvan (Harwich)

Clwyd, Ann

Hepburn, Stephen

Coaker, Vernon

Heppell, John

Coffey, Ms Ann

Hodge, Ms Margaret

Coleman, Iain

Hood, Jimmy

Connarty, Michael

Hope, Phil

Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Corbyn, Jeremy

Hoyle, Lindsay

Corston, Jean

Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)

Cox, Tom

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

Crausby, David

Humble, Mrs Joan

Cummings, John

Hutton, John

Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)

Iddon, Dr Brian

Darling, Rt Hon Alistair

Illsley, Eric

Darvill, Keith

Jamieson, David

Davey, Edward (Kingston)

Jenkins, Brian

Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)

Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)

95

Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

Prosser, Gwyn

Keeble, Ms Sally

Quinn, Lawrie

Keetch, Paul

Rammell, Bill

Kelly, Ms Ruth

Rapson, Syd

Kemp, Fraser

Raynsford, Nick

Khabra, Piara S

Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)

Kidney, David

Rendel, David

Kilfoyle, Peter

Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)

King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

Rogers, Allan

Kumar, Dr Ashok

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Ladyman, Dr Stephen

Roy, Frank

Lammy, David

Ruane, Chris

Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

Ruddock, Joan

Laxton, Bob

Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)

Lepper, David

Ryan, Ms Joan

Leslie, Christopher

Sanders, Adrian

Levitt, Tom

Sarwar, Mohammad

Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

Savidge, Malcolm

Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

Sawford, Phil

Livsey, Richard

Sedgemore, Brian

Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

Shaw, Jonathan

Lock, David

Skinner, Dennis

Love, Andrew

Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

McAllion, John

Smith, Angela (Basildon)

McAvoy, Thomas

Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)

McCabe, Steve

Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

McCafferty, Ms Chris

Smith, John (Glamorgan)

McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

McDonagh, Siobhain

Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)

Macdonald, Calum

Soley, Clive

McDonnell, John

Spellar, John

McFall, John

Squire, Ms Rachel

McGuire, Mrs Anne

Starkey, Dr Phyllis

Mclsaac, Shona

Steinberg, Gerry

McKenna, Mrs Rosemary

Stewart, David (Inverness E)

Mackinlay, Andrew

Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

McNamara, Kevin

Stinchcombe, Paul

McNulty, Tony

Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin

Mactaggart, Fiona

Straw, Rt Hon Jack

McWalter, Tony

Stringer, Graham

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Stuart, Ms Gisela

Mallaber, Judy

Sutcliffe, Gerry

Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)

Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)

Martlew, Eric

Taylor, David (NW Leics)

Meale, Alan

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Merron, Gillian

Temple-Morris, Peter

Michael, Rt Hon Alun

Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)

Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)

Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

Milburn, Rt Hon Alan

Timms, Stephen

Miller, Andrew

Touhig, Don

Moffatt, Laura

Trickett, Jon

Moore, Michael

Truswell, Paul

Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)

Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

Morley, Elliot

Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

Mountford, Kali

Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)

Mudie, George

Tumer, Neil (Wigan)

Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

Twigg, Derek (Halton)

Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)

Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

Tyler, Paul

O'Hara, Eddie

Tynan, Bill

Olner, Bill

Vaz, Keith

O'Neill, Martin

Vis, Dr Rudi

Organ, Mrs Diana

Walley, Ms Joan

Osborne, Ms Sandra

Watts, David

Perham, Ms Linda

Webb, Steve

Pickthall, Colin

White, Brian

Pike, Peter L

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Plaskitt, James

Wicks, Malcolm

Pollard, Kerry

Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)

Pope, Greg

Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)

Pound, Stephen

Willis, Phil

Powell, Sir Raymond

Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

96

Woodward, Shaun

Tellers for the Noes:

Woolas, Phil

Wray, James

Mr. Peter Snape and

Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

Ann Keen.

Question accordingly negatived.
Sir Edward Heath: I understand that two of the tellers from earlier this evening wish to make a report to me.
Mr. Snape: Sir Edward, we have to report that in the Division on the amendment to insert "Dr. David Clark", the numbers reported in the No Lobby should have been 257 and not 296.
Sir Edward Heath: I will ensure that the outcome of the Division is accurately recorded in Votes and Proceedings. I understand that it makes no difference to the overall result.
Mr. Crispin Blunt: On a point of order, Sir Edward. More than six hours ago, I raised a point of order to establish what would happen if all the motions were negatived, including the main motion. I am concerned that the House is about to apply to the merits of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin) a different test from the one that it has just applied to all the other candidates for whom we have voted.
I believe that it is important, perhaps most of all for the sake of the authority of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Springburn, that the House should understand that the judgment that it is about to make on his merits or otherwise as Speaker should be exactly the same as the judgment made on all the other candidates. The House ought to have an opportunity to divide, if it wishes—as I wish it to do—in exactly the same way as it has on all the other candidates. If the motion is then negatived, we should have an opportunity to adjourn, to return to the proposal made by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn), or to see whether there is some different way of electing a Speaker.
Question put: That the original words stand part of the Question:—
The House divided: Ayes 370, Noes 8.

Division No. 310]

[9.7 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)

Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)

Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)

Ainger, Nick

Benton, Joe

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Bermingham, Gerald

Alexander, Douglas

Berry, Roger

Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)

Best, Harold

Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary

Betts, Clive

Ashton, Joe

Blears, Ms Hazel

Atkins, Charlotte

Blizzard, Bob

Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

Boateng, Rt Hon Paul

Ballard, Jackie

Body, Sir Richard

Banks, Tony

Borrow, David

Barnes, Harry

Bradley, Keith (Withington)

Barron, Kevin

Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

Bayley, Hugh

Brake, Tom

Beard, Nigel

Brown, Rt Hon Gordon (Dunfermline E)

Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret

Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)

Begg, Miss Anne

Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

Beith, Rt Hon A J

Browne, Desmond

Bell, Martin (Tatton)

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)

97

Buck, Ms Karen

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Burden, Richard

Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

Burgon, Colin

Flint, Caroline

Burnett, John

Flynn, Paul

Burstow, Paul

Foster, Don (Bath)

Butler, Mrs Christine

Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)

Byers, Rt Hon Stephen

Foster, Michael J (Worcester)

Cable, Dr Vincent

Foulkes, George

Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

Galloway, George

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Gapes, Mike

Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife)

Gardiner, Barry

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth v)

Gerrard, Neil

Campbel—Savours, Dale

Gibson, Dr Ian

Canavan, Dennis

Gidley, Sandra

Caplin, Ivor

Gilroy, Mrs Linda

Casale, Roger

Goggins, Paul

Cash, William

Golding, Mrs Llin

Caton, Martin

Gorrie, Donald

Cawsey, Ian

Graham, Thomas

Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Chidgey, David

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Chisholm, Malcolm

Grocott, Bruce

Clapham, Michael

Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)

Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

Clark, Paul (Gillingham)

Hancock, Mike

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Hanson, David

Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)

Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet

Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

Harris, Dr Evan

Clelland, David

Haselhurst, Rt Hon Sir Alan

Clwyd, Ann

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

Coaker, Vernon

Healey, John

Coffey, Ms Ann

Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)

Coleman, Iain

Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

Connarty, Michael

Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Hepburn, Stephen

Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)

Heppell, John

Cooper, Yvette

Hill, Keith

Corbyn, Jeremy

Hodge, Ms Margaret

Corston, Jean

Hood, Jimmy

Cotter, Brian

Hope, Phil

Cox, Tom

Hopkins, Kelvin

Crausby, David

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Cummings, John

Hoyle, Lindsay

Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)

Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)

Dalyell, Tam

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

Darling, Rt Hon Alistair

Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

Darvill, Keith

Humble, Mrs Joan

Davey, Edward (Kingston)

Hurst, Alan

Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

Hutton, John

Davidson, Ian

Iddon, Dr Brian

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Illsley, Eric

Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

Davis, Rt Hon Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

Jamieson, David

Dawson, Hilton

Jenkins, Brian

Dean, Mrs Janet

Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

Denham, John

Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)

Dismore, Andrew

Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)

Dobbin, Jim

Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

Dobson, Rt Hon Frank

Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

Donaldson, Jeffrey

Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)

Donohoe, Brian H

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

Doran, Frank

Keeble, Ms Sally

Dowd, Jim

Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)

Drew, David

Keetch, Paul

Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

Kelly, Ms Ruth

Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

Kemp, Fraser

Edwards, Huw

Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles(Ross Skye & Inverness W)

Efford, Clive

Key, Robert

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Khabra, Piara S

Ennis, Jeff

Kidney, David

Etherington, Bill

Kilfoyle, Peter

Fearn, Ronnie

King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)

Ladyman, Dr Stephen

98

Lammy, David

Plaskitt, James

Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

Pollard, Kerry

Laxton, Bob

Pond, Chris

Leigh, Edward

Pope, Greg

Lepper, David

Pound, Stephen

Leslie, Christopher

Powell, Sir Raymond

Levitt, Tom

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

Prescott, Rt Hon John

Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen

Prosser, Gwyn

Linton, Martin

Quinn, Lawrie

Livsey, Richard

Radice, Rt Hon Giles

Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

Rammell, Bill

Lock, David

Rapson, Syd

Love, Andrew

Raynsford, Nick

McAllion, John

Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)

McAvoy, Thomas

Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)

McCabe, Steve

Rendel, David

McCafferty, Ms Chris

Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)

McCartney, Rt Hon lan (Makerfield)

Rogers, Allan

McDonagh, Siobhain

Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff

Macdonald, Calum

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

McDonnell, John

Rowlands, Ted

McFall, John

Roy, Frank

McGuire, Mrs Anne

Ruane, Chris

Mclsaac, Shona

Ruddock, Joan

McKenna, Mrs Rosemary

Russell, Bob (Colchester)

Mackinlay, Andrew

Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)

McNamara, Kevin

Ryan, Ms Joan

McNulty, Tony

Salmond, Alex

Mactaggart, Fiona

Salter, Martin

McWalter, Tony

Sanders, Adrian

McWilliam, John

Sarwar, Mohammad

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Savidge, Malcolm

Mallaber, Judy

Sawford, Phil

Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

Sayeed, Jonathan

Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)

Sedgemore, Brian

Marshall. Jim (Leicester S)

Shaw, Jonathan

Marshal-Andrews, Robert

Sheerman, Barry

Martlew, Eric

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian

Short, Rt Hon Clare

Maxton, John

Skinner, Dennis

Meale, Alan

Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

Merron, Gillian

Smith, Angela (Basildon)

Michael, Rt Hon Alun

Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)

Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)

Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)

Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)

Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

Milburn, Rt Hon Alan

Smith, John (Glamorgan)

Miller, Andrew

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

Moffatt, Laura

Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)

Moore, Michael

Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

Moran, Ms Margaret

Soley, Clive

Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)

Southworth, Ms Helen

Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)

Spellar, John

Morley, Elliot

Squire, Ms Rachel

Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)

Starkey, Dr Phyllis

Mountford, Kali

Steinberg, Gerry

Mudie, George

Stewart, David (Inverness E)

Mullin, Chris

Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

Stinchcombe, Paul

Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)

Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin

Naysmith, Dr Doug

Straw, Rt Hon Jack

Oaten, Mark

Stuart, Ms Gisela

O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

Stunell, Andrew

O'Hara, Eddie

Sutcliffe, Gerry

Olner, Bill

Swayne, Desmond

O'Neill, Martin

Tapsell, Sir Peter

Öpik, Lembit

Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Organ, Mrs Diana

Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)

Osborne, Ms Sandra

Taylor, David (NW Leics)

Palmer, Dr Nick

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Perham, Ms Linda

Temple-Morris, Peter

Pickthall, Colin

Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)

Pike, Peter L

Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

99

Timms, Stephen

Watts, David

Tipping, Paddy

Webb, Steve

Todd, Mark

White, Brian

Tonge, Dr Jenny

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Touhig, Don

Wicks, Malcolm

Trickett, Jon

Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)

Truswell, Paul

Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)

Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

Willis, Phil

Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

Winnick, David

Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)

Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)

Turner, Neil (Wigan)

Woodward, Shaun

Twigg, Derek (Halton)

Woolas, Phil

Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

Wray, James

Tyler, Paul

Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

Tynan, Bill

Wright, Tony (Cannock)

Vaz, Keith

Vis, Dr Rudi

Tellers for the Ayes:

Walley, Ms Joan

Mr. Peter Snape and

Ward, Ms Claire

Ann Keen.

NOES

Bercow, John

Viggers, Peter

Blunt, Crispin

Wilshire, David

Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

Kirkbride, Miss Julie

Tellers for the Noes:

MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew

Dr. Julian Lewis and

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

Mr. David Maclean.

Question accordingly agreed to.
Resolved,
That Mr. Michael J. Martin do take the Chair of this House as Speaker.
Whereupon SIR EDWARD HEATH left the Chair, and MR. MICHAEL J. MARTIN was taken out of his place and conducted to the Chair by MR. PETER SNAPE and ANN KEEN. [Applause.]
9.20 pm
Mr. Speaker-Elect: Order. I understand that the Speaker-Elect normally makes some formal remarks before taking the throne. It has been a long day and I do not want to keep hon. Members, but the House owes a debt of gratitude to the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath), the Father of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I hope that the House will allow me to say that my thoughts are with my wife Mary, my son Paul, my daughter Mary and my grandson Ryan. Family is important to me and I will endeavour to see that families are included in the proceedings of the House. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]
Before I assume the Chair as Speaker-Elect, I thank the House once again for its confidence in me. I pray that I shall prove worthy of that confidence and that all of us will maintain the high tradition of this place. I also ask hon. Members for their prayers.
9.21 pm
The Prime Minister (Mr. Tony Blair): It is my pleasure to be the first Member of Parliament to offer you congratulations on your election, Mr. Speaker-Elect. Much has been made of your origins in hardship and difficulty, and your upbringing in Scotland in poverty which, no doubt, will give you a special insight into the position of many people. However, I want to lay stress not on your origins but on your qualities, integrity and worldly wisdom.
A moment or two ago, Mr. Speaker-Elect, you said that no Labour leader had ever offered you a Government or Front-Bench job. On behalf of this Labour leader, may I
100
say that I realise what a great oversight that was? I know that you feel a sense of joy and pride for your constituents in Glasgow, Springburn. Back in the 1980s, when you and I sat on Committees together, you told me what a tough training ground in politics Glasgow was, especially for speeches. When you made a good speech in Glasgow, people did not applaud—they just let you live.
You follow a long line of people who have recently fulfilled the office with great distinction, not least Betty Boothroyd, who was a superb Speaker and enjoyed a fantastic reputation in the House and the whole country. You know—as we all do—that that will be a hard act to follow. You are the 156th occupant of the Chair. As we have just seen, the House follows the tradition that people become Speaker only with great reluctance. That is not surprising, given that a number of your predecessors died in battle or were beheaded. However, the post has possible advantages, as I believe that one Speaker was canonised.
On behalf of the House, may I offer my congratulations to the other Members who were candidates in the election for Speaker? I listened to their outstanding speeches. It is a tribute to the strength of the House that there were so many able and fitting candidates from both sides. Of course, I pay tribute to the Father of the House who did as we expected and handled our proceedings with great tact, skill and efficiency.
Today, there are enormous pressures on Speakers. In years gone by, Mr. Speaker-Elect, your predecessors had their words and judgments recorded in Hansard. However, since our proceedings have begun to be broadcast, Speakers have become familiar figures, nationally and, indeed, internationally. I know that your predecessor received regular correspondence from the United States, from people who were avid watchers of Prime Minister's Question Time—there is no accounting for taste. You can take comfort from the fact that, although such letters are frequently critical of the two main combatants, they are unfailingly complimentary about the Speaker and, no doubt, will continue to be so.
The context of your job, Mr. Speaker-Elect, is changing; not just because of the 24-hour scrutiny by the media, but because of our new devolved institutions in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I hope the House will forgive me if I say that this is the first time that the House has met since the tragic death of our colleague and friend Donald Dewar. It is right that we acknowledge not just the tremendous contribution that he made to the new Parliament in Scotland, but the contribution that he made here in this House for 26 years. He was a parliamentarian of extraordinary distinction and he was one of your fellow Members of Parliament in Glasgow. He will be sorely missed.
Your election today is the clearest reflection of the respect that this House has for you. It is based on your genuine popularity, the affection that is felt in all parts of the Commons, and on your inherent sense of fairness. During your time as Deputy Speaker—a post you filled with distinction—you have occupied the Chair with good humour and a style of gentle persuasion that has been a most effective way of exercising your authority.
I can say also with some confidence that, some time during the first 18 months of your occupancy of the Chair—I am not sure when—we shall have a newly elected House of Commons, and there will be some new faces for you to identify; although, I hope, not too many.

101
Today has been an extremely important day both for the House of Commons and for our democracy. We do not elect a new Speaker very often. The job, for all its hazards, has historically rather more job security than either that of Prime Minister or Leader of the Opposition. It is a job which traditionally people have filled until the day comes when they decide that they want to retire.
This House has shown its great confidence in you, in that, from an unprecedentedly wide range of candidates, you have been chosen to occupy the highest office that this House, by election, can bestow. I offer you again my warmest congratulations and every good wish for the future.
9.27 pm
Mr. William Hague: I, too, wish to offer you my congratulations on your election and your great achievement today, Mr. Speaker-Elect. No matter how many right hon. and hon. Members voted for you or against you, you are now Speaker of the whole House of Commons.
I, too, should like to echo the words of thanks of the Prime Minister to my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath), as Father of the House, for the unflappable—not to say completely immovable—way in which he has conducted proceedings today.
Nevertheless, the large number of candidates on this occasion has raised a legitimate question about the procedures used for this purpose; a question that I believe that the House should consider during your speakership. Fears were expressed that the procedures today would be a shambles. I do not think that they have been a shambles—although it will not always be the case that the losing of 39 votes is completely irrelevant to the outcome—but the system used may not have been ideal.
Having listened to every speech made in the debate today, I believe, along with the Prime Minister, that the House of Commons can be proud of the diversity, abilities and integrity of all of the candidates who have participated today, and none of them should regret having done so.
Your position is far more than ceremonial, Mr. Speaker-Elect, as you know. The Speaker is at the same time the servant and the master of the House. You are now the custodian of our rules, our privileges and our traditions. You will need to use your keen sense of the House and to be able to judge the occasion. You must discard, as you well know, your former affiliations and become the independent champion of the rights of Back Benchers and of all parties in the House.
We are all well aware of the concern that has been expressed today by most of the candidates, their proposers and seconders that the Commons is no longer the place that it was. Many of us will look to you, as Speaker, to follow the example set by your predecessor in resisting all attempts to bypass, marginalise or downgrade the House of Commons. We look to you robustly to defend the position of the House of Commons at the centre of our national life as the independent democratic forum of the British nation.
I have long experience of your chairmanship in Committee, Mr. Speaker-Elect. Indeed, when I was a junior Minister, I debated a Bill for many months with the
102
late Donald Dewar, who was a charming, thorough and utterly forensic opponent. Your experience of such chairmanship is immense. I recall that it was characterised by fairness, generosity, patience and calm. You will now need those qualities in abundance. Your qualities of patience and calmness will be sorely tested, but the challenge of maintaining them in the face of every provocation is now before you. The challenge of championing the rights of the House of Commons when they are so often under threat is now before you. The challenge of maintaining the impartial conduct of our proceedings is now before you. As you rise to those challenges, Mr. Speaker-Elect, we wish you very well.
9.30 pm
Mr. Charles Kennedy: May I entirely associate my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Liberal Democrat party with the sincere and warm expression of congratulations to you, Mr. Speaker-Elect, on this historic night for you and, as you said, for your family? In particular, I associate those remarks with my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-East Fife (Mr. Campbell). Following this election, they will respect you and your integrity as I know, from the reactions to the proposers and seconders, the House respects each of them. I pay great tribute to both of them, too.
I also associate myself entirely with the tributes paid to the Father of the House, the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath). At one point in the first half hour of the election, as the points of order flowed on, I thought that he might break the deadlock by offering himself as a compromise candidate. He chose not to do so.
As has been acknowledged, for many of us in the House—not least for a Glaswegian like yourself, Mr. Speaker-Elect—the last few days have been a tale of two cities. So many of us last week paid tribute to a Scot and a Glaswegian—through and through, like you—who had assumed one of the great offices in the land. Now he is gone. This week, here is another Glaswegian who has assumed one of the great offices in the land. It is a reflective and ironic moment for many of us, not least yourself.
To say something personal, if I may indulge in one thought further, the first time that our new Speaker and I met was on the opposite sides of a picket line at Lochaber high school in Fort William when I was about 15 years old. The cleaners at the school had gone on strike and the NUPE regional representative had come to pay a state visit. We were on opposite sides of the picket line for a most curious reason. The school was closed because the cleaners were on strike and those of us who were pupils were delighted and were supporting them from the other side of the picket line. It is a happy memory.
The debate on the election of a new Speaker has been fascinating, with so many good speeches and so many worthy candidates. You have a full in-tray, Mr. Speaker-Elect, with suggestions for change, modernisation and progress in our proceedings and procedures. All of us who know you know that you will take that seriously.
Finally, I enter one specific plea, which you would expect from the Liberal Democrat Benches. I mentioned Donald Dewar and what he set up and then presided over in Edinburgh. He recognised the multi-faith, multi-faceted

103
nature of politics in our country. It is important that in its practices and procedures this Chamber recognises that too. We wish you well; all good luck.
9.34 pm
Mr. Alex Salmond: On behalf of my colleagues in the Scottish National party and Plaid Cymru, I warmly congratulate you, Mr. Speaker-Elect, on your elevation. As I recall, our parliamentary paths first crossed when you reported me to the House for appearing in an education Committee that you were chairing. Unfortunately, the Committee of Selection had by some oversight omitted to make me a member of that Committee. You came to the House to ask for powers to deal with me—powers which, as Chairman of the Committee, you did not have. In your current, or soon-to-be-occupied, position, you will have such powers, so I might be more careful about which Committees I gatecrash in future. I am sure that you will use your powers wisely.
Like many of us, Mr. Speaker-Elect, you will have noted the seven hours that it has taken the House to reach such a decisive and successful conclusion. Perhaps you will look north and recall that, when only one day old, the Scottish Parliament, presided over in distinguished fashion by Donald Dewar, managed to elect its Presiding Officer in only half an hour. I am sure that the desirable outcome that we have achieved today would not have been different had we used different procedures, but I suspect that there is a more efficient system available. Perhaps a new legislature—the Scottish Parliament, in which your son serves—might hold some lessons that would inform the proceedings of this House.
I take issue with one comment you made when offering yourself to the House, Mr. Speaker-Elect. You said that your background should not be a reason for voting for you, or for voting against you, but I happen to think that your background is a substantial reason for electing you to the Chair that you now occupy. All your achievements in life, including the high office that you are now to hold, have been the result of your own efforts and those of your colleagues. I am sure that your background and the wisdom that you have gathered in your struggles through life will stand you in excellent stead to be a most distinguished occupant of the Chair.
9.36 pm
Sir Alan Haselhurst: At the risk of testing the patience of the House by addressing it twice in one day, Mr. Speaker-Elect, I should like to offer you my personal congratulations on your election as Speaker. Having had the pleasure of working with you for the past three and a half years, I wish you well. I am sure that you will conduct your office in a most distinguished manner.
On the last occasion that a Speaker was chosen, there was one defeated candidate who felt, out of courtesy, that he should speak. On this occasion, you and the House will be aware that there are rather a lot of defeated candidates, but I think that I can say—at least on behalf of the many on this side of the House—that we shall not test the House's patience by contributing individually. Therefore, on behalf of my colleagues who have fallen before you in the course of today's proceedings, I salute your success
104
and wish you well. You will have the support of the House and we trust that yours will be a happy and successful tenure in the office of Speaker.
9.37 pm
Mr. Tony Benn: Mr. Speaker-Elect, today's events have worldwide significance: it has been announced on the nine o'clock news that Libya, China, North Korea and Iraq have adopted the system that we adopted today for the election of their leaders. I have no doubt that that is, in part, the result of the influence of the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath). Although, sadly, I failed to persuade him today, I believe that one good feature has emerged.
Every single speech by a candidate dealt with the same theme: the importance of the House of Commons. If every school studying citizenship received a copy of today's Hansard, students would have a better education in the way in which we perceive our work. Every speech made has been outstanding. I feel sure that, having gone through the problems associated with the selection, you, Mr. Speaker-Elect, will feel strengthened in reinforcing the power of the House in the months and years that lie ahead.
9.39 pm
Mr. Dennis Canavan: Mr. Speaker-Elect, as no party leader now speaks for me, I should like to add my words of congratulation to you on your election. It is a great honour for you personally, a great honour for Mary and your family, a great honour for your native city of Glasgow and a great honour for Scotland. Much has been said about the great responsibilities and onerous duties to the House that accompany your new position. I hope that you will work hard to protect the rights of Members of Parliament and to ensure that the Government are accountable to Parliament.
This may be my last opportunity to address this Parliament. You, Mr. Speaker-Elect, will be the fifth Speaker during my time in the House. When I was first elected in October 1974, Selwyn Lloyd was Speaker. Harold Wilson was Prime Minister, and I was a quarter of his majority. Gradually, through the loss of by-elections, that majority was eroded and eventually there was no majority. That Government were defeated on the Floor of the House by a vote.
That scenario is most unlikely to repeat itself during the lifetime of this Parliament because of the size of the Government's majority. However, a Government who have a majority that is perhaps too large are not necessarily a good thing for democracy. Sometimes Governments with very large majorities behave arrogantly and treat Parliament as a mere rubber stamp. I hope that you, Mr. Speaker-Elect, will not allow that to happen. Parliament will not do its job unless Members are considered first and foremost as representatives of people rather than mere puppets of any party.
Members have a right and a duty to tell their party and their Government when they have it wrong. Should it be thought that this is becoming rather too political, I remind the House that I am only one of three Members of this Parliament who is not a member of any political party. I am unique in the Scottish Parliament in that I am the only Member who is not a member of any party. That is

105
because last year I was given a free transfer from what used to be called the people's party. That was not exactly of my own volition.
I hope, Mr. Speaker-Elect, that you will ensure that Members of all parties and of none will have the opportunity to speak up for the people whom they represent. I place on record my thanks to all Members past and present whom I have had the pleasure of knowing and working with over the past 26 years. I have had the privilege of representing my constituents for more than a quarter of a century in this place, and I hope that I will have the privilege of continuing to represent them for many years in the Scottish Parliament.
9.42 pm
Mr. Simon Hughes: Here, there are 659 Members of many faiths and of none, and of many Christian denominations. I happen for the time being to be chair of the Christian fellowship. Your election, Mr. Speaker-Elect, is more momentous in one more respect than those that have been mentioned. I think that, for the first time since the Reformation, a Roman Catholic has been elected to chair the House. On behalf of other Christian denominations and of all other Members from different faith backgrounds, we welcome that. Another old tradition has been broken. We are now much more a representative House, where the highest offices can go to Members whatever their faith background, than we were before you were elected.
9.43 pm
Caroline Flint: I congratulate you on your successful election, Mr. Speaker-Elect. I say as chair of the all-party group on childcare that it has been gratifying to hear many Members on both sides of the House entering the election and saying that child care and family friendly policies can be part of the workings of the House. You said, Mr. Speaker-Elect, that you have met many members of the staff who have families to go to but who stay with us until the early hours of the morning.
106
Scrutiny is part of Parliament's work, but so is a modern Parliament for modern families. It is great that that has been acknowledged by candidates from all parties.
The Prime Minister: I have to signify that it is Her Majesty's pleasure that this House should present their Speaker on this day at 11.15 pm in the House of Peers for Her Majesty's royal approbation.
9.44 pm
Sitting suspended.
11.18 pm
On resuming—
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
The House went; and having returned:
Mr. Speaker: I have a script to read.
I have to report to the House that this House has been to the House of Peers, where Her Majesty has been graciously pleased to signify by her Lords Commissioners her approbation of the choice of myself as Speaker to this House.
My first duty in the House is to repeat my respectful acknowledgements of and my grateful thanks for the great honour it has done me and the confidence that it has conferred on me, and to renew the assurance of my entire devotion to the service of the House.

BETTY BOOTHROYD
Resolved,
That an humble address be presented to Her Majesty praying Her Majesty that she will be most graciously pleased to confer some signal mark of her royal favour upon the right hon. Betty Boothroyd, for her eminent services during the important period in which she has, with such distinguished ability and dignity, presided in the Chair of the House and assuring Her Majesty that whatever expense Her Majesty shall think fit to be incurred upon that account this House will make good the same—[Mrs. Beckett.]

ADJOURNMENT
Resolved,
That this House do now adjourn.—[Mrs. Beckett.]
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes to Twelve o'clock.