§ Mr. Fraser Kemp (Houghton and Washington, East)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision about the award of certain honours and decorations; and for connected purposes.I begin by clarifying two points. First, the Bill will not affect military honours currently awarded for gallantry. Secondly, it will not alter the current arrangements for another place.The Bill will replace the arcane panoply of honours currently available, from knighthoods to baronetcies, from the Order of St. Patrick to the Thistle, the Star of India, the Order of the Indian Empire, and various others. Some of those are still technically in existence, but they have not been awarded in decades. One of them, incidentally, is available only to members of one religious faith in Britain. That is hardly a sign of a multi-faith nation or a society that cherishes many different faiths.
I shall concentrate on the 90 per cent. of honours that are awarded, usually twice yearly—the honours of the British empire, which are given in three categories. They often seem to be awarded on the grounds of a person's rank, occupation or status in society. Such an outdated system does no credit to a nation that has just entered a new millennium. Any nation, and Britain in particular, should strive to break down social divisions, not reinforce them by clinging to an honours system that is based on an empire which, whether we like it or not, ceased to exist several decades ago.
I have no problem with some form of formal recognition to celebrate and reward people who make society a better place, and who work unstintingly for others, often with no reward to themselves. I agree that those people should be recognised, but that recognition should be based purely on their contribution to society.
I pose a series of questions to the House with regard to the current honours system. How are we to quantify public service, or judge one person's contribution to society as more important than that of someone else? Why should we honour a first-rate diplomat and ambassador about whom many of us have not heard, rather than an exceptional nurse who has looked after people throughout a professional career?
Why should one grade of honour be awarded rather than another? How can we make a judgment about television presenters or celebrities, and whether they should receive an honour of one grade rather than another? The same applies to authors—ultimately, a literary judgment would have to be made, which I am not sure the honours unit, the Prime Minister or anyone else is qualified to make. How are such gradations to be made? We need to examine that closely.
Many people are often offended when an industrialist, for example, who might or might not have donated money to a political party, ends up with a much higher grade honour than tireless charity workers and many others who work so hard. Such judgments are arbitrary within the current system, make no sense and offend many people. The system is not enhanced by its gradations; indeed, they often bring the entire system into disrepute and confusion.
I want to see an across-the-board honour rather than honours that reflect the past. We are in the 21st century, and we should be moving on. We could look to other
329 Commonwealth nations, such as Canada, Australia and Jamaica, which have abolished the British honours system. Australia has replaced the various honours that were available with one simple Order of Australia. Whether someone worked in the outback as a postman for 40 years or was Prime Minister, he is proud to receive the Order of Australia. We could learn much from other Commonwealth countries that have adopted a different approach.
We should replace the present panoply of honours with an Order of the United Kingdom. That should be the way in which this country honours its worthiest members. I think that recipients would be proud to receive the honour. It would be awarded on the basis of what someone has done to make society a better place, irrespective of where he stands in the pecking order.
The Bill would enable the number of nominations received from the public to be increased. At present, less than 50 per cent. of the honours awarded bi-annually are the result of public nominations. We should ensure that the percentage increases. The rest of the nominations are made by a mixture of businesses, national organisations, Government Departments and the Prime Minister's office. We need radically to change the balance to ensure that nominations are made by many more people.
I accept that changes have been made, particularly in 1993. I welcome those changes, but we need to move a step further. As we enter the new millennium, I believe that the symbols of public recognition should be changed. Symbols are important because they often send out a message about the society in which we want to live. We should not tolerate systems that continue to reinforce divisions in society. I am reminded of what Barbara Castle said when she was Secretary of State for Transport.
The most outrageous feature about the Honours System was that it reflected the system of social stratification and snobbery in this country. One of my most embarrassing jobs as a Minister was to presentcertain honoursto railwaymen and other members of the lower orders
who were not deemed important enough to go to the Palace for their investiture.
Changes have been made, as I have said, and in all sincerity I congratulate the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major), who made some important steps forward. The medal to which Barbara Castle was referring was one that he abolished. As far as I can ascertain, he is the only Prime Minister of the previous century to abolish an honour. The steps that he took were in the right direction, but we must ensure that we move a step further and have an honours system that is more in common with the meritocratic democracy in which we live, rather than one that is linked to the past.
Before anyone accuses me of flying in the face of history, the reality is that 99 per cent. of the honours that are awarded every year are inventions that cover about a century. Some of them have a certain mediaeval flavour about them, but in reality they were created in Queen Victoria's reign and in the early part of the 19th century. Some honours date back a number of centuries, but 99 per cent. of what we do every year date from about a century ago. We should honour those members of society who have made that contribution. This is about the honours that we represent and our values in Britain today, not those of yesteryear.
330 I ask the House to support the measure, as it is time for a radical overhaul. The House has come a long way since it blew the gaff on Lloyd George, who famously sold knighthoods for £10,000, baronetcies for £40,000 and peerages for about £100,000. A lot has changed since then, but we need to make sure that we change the current system, which is indefensible. I therefore ask the House to support the measure.
§ Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst)I cannot make up my mind whether the hon. Member for Houghton and Washington, East (Mr. Kemp) is off-message or trailing for Tony. I shall seek to divide the House on the matter, so we shall soon find out whether the hon. Gentleman, who is always described in the media as being close to Tony, knows something that he is not telling us about or is seriously off-message and will not be close to Tony after today.
The proposal is as about as typical of new Labour as one can get. It is a mindless assault on tradition, our heritage and history, as well as a blundering and ill-considered attempt to sweep away things that are well understood, if not by the hon. Gentleman and his friends, at least by the vast majority of people in this country. Surely, the acid test of whether the current honours system is appropriate is the pleasure with which people accept honours. It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to patronise people who happily accept various honours, but he seems to have given no thought to those recipients who, when they accept, are honoured—and say so—and make no secret of the fact that they are delighted. They reveal the great pleasure that they take in being recognised in many different ways.
We heard a lot of nonsense about a class-ridden society. Surely, the fact that our new Speaker hails, as I do, from a tenement in Glasgow tells us that our society has long since left behind the blind prejudices that obsess the hon. Gentleman and his friends, and has become genuinely open. Our beloved Deputy Prime Minister used to serve drinks on a cruise liner, but that was no barrier to him achieving one of the highest offices in the land, and we must all welcome that. However, along comes the hon. Gentleman with his narrow, obsessive ideology, determined to sweep away things that are loved, respected and honoured throughout the country, including our well-established honours system. He then blunders in with something called the Order of the United Kingdom.
For goodness' sake, what is the point of doing that apart from sheer mindless destruction, for which the Government have become rather too well known? [Interruption.] The Government are prepared to sweep away large parts of our constitution and well-understood elements of our electoral arrangements, and they want to introduce confusing, muddled and irrelevant things. I heard the clack of hon. Members surrounding the hon. Member for Houghton and Washington talking about equality.
§ Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley)Fairness.
§ Mr. ForthOr fairness, as the hon. Gentleman says. I should have thought that any system that requires judgment by one person on another will either be accepted as fair or condemned as unfair, almost regardless of what it does.
331 I am pleased that the hon. Member for Houghton and Washington, East said that his proposal would not affect military awards.
§ Mr. ForthThe hon. Gentleman must accept that gallantry awards inevitably require one person to judge other people's achievements and contributions. Any system of recognition requires that. I have not noticed any reticence from the Government about using the honours system, whether to award peerages to contributors to the Labour party or to the endless succession of luvvies who stream through No. 10 and go out smiling, having been given some sort of award. The hon. Gentleman's own Government, through their actions over the past three and a half years, have demonstrated that they are very keen on the existing awards system. I do not particularly blame them for that or for following in Lloyd George's footsteps, if that is how they feel that they should conduct themselves. I do not blame them for the luvvies either, to whom they are welcome as far as I am concerned.
The truth is that the measure reveals much more about the hon. Gentleman and the Labour party today than it does about the honours system. The hon. Gentleman has a twisted and bitter approach to these matters which simply is not shared by the thousands of people who, every year, happily accept well-deserved honours and recognition through our existing honours system.
Had the hon. Gentleman given us many examples of people who had been offended or upset by the offer of an honour, I might have been a bit more impressed, but he has not. He has come at this from an ideological point of view. He has demonstrated that he and his party are all about the destruction of our institutions, heritage, traditions and history. We must have none of it and I call on my right hon. and hon. Friends to reject this ill-thought-out and bitter motion today.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 23 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of public business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 153, Noes 58.
333| Division No. 350] | [4.45 pm |
| AYES | |
| Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N) | Campbell-Savours, Dale |
| Ainger, Nick | Cann, Jamie |
| Allan, Richard | Cawsey, Ian |
| Ashton, Joe | Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) |
| Atherton, Ms Candy | Chaytor, David |
| Baker, Norman | Chidgey, David |
| Ballard, Jackie | Clapham, Michael |
| Banks, Tony | Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) |
| Barnes, Harry | Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge) |
| Beith, Rt Hon A J | Cohen, Harry |
| Bennett, Andrew F | Connarty, Michael |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Cotter, Brian |
| Best, Harold | Crausby, David |
| Blears, Ms Hazel | Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley) |
| Brake, Tom | Cryer, John (Hornchurch) |
| Brand, Dr Peter | Cummings, John |
| Breed, Colin | Dalyell, Tam |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Davey, Valerie (Bristol W) |
| Burgon, Colin | Davidson, Ian |
| Burstow, Paul | Davies, Geraint (Croydon C) |
| Butler, Mrs Christine | Dismore, Andrew |
| Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth) | Dobson, Rt Hon Frank |
| Donohoe, Brian H | McWalter, Tony |
| Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston) | McWilliam, John |
| Efford, Clive | Mahon, Mrs Alice |
| Ennis, Jeff | Mallabar, Judy |
| Etherington, Bill | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Feam, Ronnie | Marshall-Andrews, Robert |
| Fitzpatrick, Jim | Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley) |
| Flynn, Paul | Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute) |
| Follett, Barbara | Mitchell, Austin |
| Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings) | Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N) |
| Galloway, George | Mountford, Kali |
| Gapes, Mike | Mudie, George |
| George, Andrew (St Ives) | Naysmith, Dr Doug |
| Gibson, Dr Ian | Olner, Bill |
| Gidley, Sandra | Organ, Mrs Diana |
| Gilroy, Mrs Linda | Pollard, Kerry |
| Godman, Dr Norman A | Pound, Stephen |
| Godsiff, Roger | Prosser, Gwyn |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Rendel, David |
| Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Ruane, Chris |
| Hancock, Mike | Russell, Bob (Colchester) |
| Harris, Dr Evan | Sanders, Adrian |
| Healey, John | Sawford, Phill |
| Heath, David (Somerton & Frome) | Shaw, Jonathan |
| Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) | Sheerman, Barry |
| Hepburn, Stephen | Shipley, Ms Debra |
| Hinchliffe, David | Skinner, Dennis |
| Hope, Phil | Smith, Angela (Basildon) |
| Hopkins, Kelvin | Smith, John (Glamorgan) |
| Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford) | Smith, Liew (Blaenau Gwent) |
| Iddon, Dr Brian | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Illsley, Eric | Stevensopn, George |
| Jenkins, Brian | Stewart, Ian (Eccles) |
| Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn) | Stunell, Andrew |
| Jones, Ms Jenny | Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S) |
| (Wolverh'ton SW) | Taylor, David (NW, Leics) |
| Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak) | Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W) |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S) | Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion) |
| Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) | Trickett, Jon |
| Kemp, Fraser | Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown) |
| Khabra, Piara S | Turner, Neil (Wigan) |
| Kilfoyle, Peter | Tyler, Paul |
| King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth) | Vis, Dr Rudi |
| Kumar, Dr Ashok | Webb, Steve |
| Lammy, David | Welsh, Andrew |
| Lawrence, Mrs Jackie | White, Brian |
| Lepper, David | Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen) |
| Livsey, Richard | Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy) |
| Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C) | Winnick, David |
| Llwyd, Elfyn | Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth) |
| McCafferty, Ms Chris | Wright, Tony (Cannock) |
| McDonnell, John | Wyatt, Derek |
| McFall, John | |
| McNamara, Kevin | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| MacShane, Denis | Mr. Ronnie Campbell and |
| Mactaggart, Fiona | Mr. Denis Murphy |
| NOES | |
| Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James | Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | (Rushcliffe) |
| Beggs, Roy | Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey |
| Bell, Martin (Talton) | Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice) |
| Bercow, John | Fox, Dr Liam |
| Blunt, Crispin | Gale, Roger |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia | Gill, Christopher |
| Brazier, Julian | Gray, James |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Green, Damian |
| Browning, Mrs Angela | Grieve, Dominic |
| Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Harvey, Nick |
| Burns, Simon | Hawkins, Nick |
| Chapman, Sir Sydney | Hunter, Andrew |
| (Chipping Barnet) | Keetch, Paul |
| Clappison, James | Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh) | (Ross Skye & Inverness W) |
| Key, Robert |
| Laing, Mrs Eleanor | Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk) |
| Leigh, Edward | Swayne, Desmond |
| Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E) | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Loughton, Tim | Taylor, John M (Solihull) |
| Luff, Peter | Tyrie, Andrew |
| MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew | Waterson, Nigel |
| Maclean, Rt Hon David | Whitney, Sir Raymond |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Whittingdale, John |
| Moss, Malcolm | Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann |
| Oaten, Mark | Wilkinson, John |
| Öpik, Lembit | Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield) |
| Randall, John | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| Redwood, Rt Hon John | |
| Robathan, Andrew | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Robertson, Laurence | Mr. Eric Forth and |
| St Aubyn, Nick | Mr. Douglas Hogg. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Fraser Kemp, Mr. Ronnie Campbell, Mr. Lawrie Quinn, Mr. Alan Keen, Mr. Stephen Hepburn, Mr. Peter Kilfoyle, Mr. Chris Ruane, Mr. David Winnick and Mr. Bob Russell.
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- HONOURS AND DECORATIONS 48 words