§ Lords Reasons for insisting on certain of their amendments to which the Commons have disagreed and for disagreeing to the Commons amendment to the Bill in lieu, again considered.
§ Question again proposed, That this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their amendments, but does not insist on its amendment in lieu.
§ Mr. George HowarthI should correct the hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison) on one point. He said that we had produced the review system at the last minute. In fact, it is in response to a request from the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler) some time ago. We thought that it was a reasonable request—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman asks for something and is granted it. Then, most ungratefully, he laughs at our agreeing to his request.
The Opposition should acknowledge that we have said that they will be consulted about the way in which the process works, and we mean that sincerely. There is a real point to having a review. They asked for it and I hope that they will be good enough to acknowledge that.
It is customary to begin by saying that we have had a good debate. On this occasion, perhaps I will be forgiven for saying that it has been an interesting debate. We have certainly heard some good speeches, and I shall refer to one or two in a moment, but frankly, the debate has not moved on a great deal since Second Reading. Opposition Members have their view and we have ours, and there does not seem to have been a meeting of minds. If they have doubts about whether the Bill has been debated thoroughly, I remind them that the House has debated it on Second Reading, in Committee and on Report and has considered Lords amendments for a total of 31 hours and 45 minutes. I would have thought that almost everything that could have been said about the Bill, and the choice of an open or closed-list system, had been said.
§ Mr. Peter BottomleyCould the Minister say which Labour Back Benchers would support the Government policy on a free vote?
§ Mr. HowarthThe hon. Gentleman asks a silly question. I wonder whether he could tell me how many of his colleagues would have voted in the poll tax had they had a free vote on it when they were in government. It is the same principle. We were elected on a manifesto commitment to introduce a proportional system for European elections and that is what we will deliver.
§ Mr. John Randall (Uxbridge)Will the Minister give way?
§ Mr. HowarthNo. Let us not forget that, had it not been for the stubbornness of the unelected second Chamber, we would not be debating this matter for the fourth time tonight. Conservative Members have advanced no new arguments tonight. Nor have they made any attempt to explain how the perverse results that an open-list system can produce—[Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. The House must come to order. There are far too many conversations going on in the Chamber.
§ Mr. HowarthNor has anyone explained how the perverse results that my right hon. Friend the Home 718 Secretary has repeatedly explained could possibly be justified to the electorate in the circumstances that he described earlier. Quite honestly, the discovery that the person who got the most votes in such a system was not elected would be met by bafflement among the electorate—and rightly so.
There has not been any sort of answer to the damning admission made by Lord Bethell, himself a former and aspiring Member of the European Parliament, whose words my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary quoted at the start of the debate, that he and his fellow Conservative hopefuls in London would be known only to the tiniest fraction of the electorate. I might add that, as a result of his being frequently mentioned in tonight's debate, Lord Bethell is probably rather better known now than he was before he wrote that letter.
The Government remain firmly convinced that the closed-list system is the most fair and appropriate system for Britain to use to elect its MEPs. It is easy to use and produces fair and clear results. We also remain convinced that this House must prevail over the other place, which, for all its undoubted merits in other respects, has been elected by no one and lacks any democratic legitimacy.
We listened to the views of the other place, and first introduced and then strengthened the review clause. We hope that the other place will now return the favour and listen to the clear and unambiguous message which is the will of this House—[Interruption.] If Conservative Members doubt that, I suggest that they look to see who goes into which Lobby tonight. The result will be the expression of the will of this House—an expression of which the Lords will take notice. A combination of the unelected in the House of Lords and the unelectable sitting on the Conservative Benches here will not thwart the will of this House.
§ Question put:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 309, Noes 122.
721| Division No. 377] | [10.6 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Brown, Russell (Dumfries) |
| Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N) | Browne, Desmond |
| Ainger, Nick | Buck, Ms Karen |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Burden, Richard |
| Allan, Richard | Burgon, Colin |
| Allen, Graham | Burstow, Paul |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Butler, Mrs Christine |
| Armstrong, Ms Hilary | Caborn, Richard |
| Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy | Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth) |
| Atherton, Ms Candy | Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) |
| Austin, John | Campbell, Menzies (NE Fife) |
| Banks, Tony | Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) |
| Barron, Kevin | Campbell-Savours, Dale |
| Battle, John | Caplin, Ivor |
| Bayley, Hugh | Casale, Roger |
| Beard, Nigel | Caton, Martin |
| Beth, Rt Hon A J | Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) |
| Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough) | Chisholm, Malcolm |
| Benton, Joe | Clapham, Michael |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields) |
| Berry, Roger | Clark, Dr Lynda |
| Blackman, Liz | (Edinburgh Pentlands) |
| Blears, Ms Hazel | Clark, Paul (Gillingham) |
| Boateng, Paul | Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) |
| Bradley, Keith (Withington) | Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge) |
| Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) | Clarke, Tony (Northampton S) |
| Bradshaw, Ben | Clelland, David |
| Brinton, Mrs Helen | Coaker, Vernon |
| Coffey, Ms Ann | Hewitt, Ms Patricia |
| Cohen, Harry | Hill, Keith |
| Coleman, Iain | Hinchliffe, David |
| Connarty, Michael | Hoey, Kate |
| Cooper, Yvette | Home Robertson, John |
| Corbett, Robin | Hood, Jimmy |
| Cotter, Brian | Hoon, Geoffrey |
| Cranston, Ross | Hope, Phil |
| Crausby, David | Hopkins, Kelvin |
| Cryer, John (Hornchurch) | Howarth, Alan (Newport E) |
| Cummings, John | Howarth, George (Knowsley N) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Howells, Dr Kim |
| Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S) | Hoyle, Lindsay |
| Cunningham, Ms Roseanna | Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford) |
| (Perth | Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N |
| Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire | Humble, Mrs Joan |
| Dafis, Cynog | Hurst, Alan |
| Dalyell, Tam | Hutton, John |
| Darling, Rt Hon Alistair | Illsley, Eric |
| Darvill, Keith | Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead) |
| Davey, Valerie (Bristol W) | Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough) |
| Davidson, Ian | Jamieson, David |
| Davies, Geraint (Croydon C) | Jenkins, Brian |
| Dawson, Hilton | Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle) |
| Dean, Mrs Janet | Johnson, Miss Melanie |
| Denham, John | (Welwyn Hatfield) |
| Dismore, Andrew | Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) |
| Dobbin, Jim | Jones, Helen (Warrington N) |
| Donohoe, Brain H | Jones, Ms Jenny |
| Dowd, Jim | (Wolverh'ton SW) |
| Drew, David | Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) |
| Drown, Ms Julia | Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S) |
| Eagle, Angela (Wallasey) | Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston) |
| Eagle, Maria (L'Pool Garston) | Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth) |
| Edwards, Huw | Kemp, Fraser |
| Ellman, Mrs Louise | Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree) |
| Ennis, Jeff | Khabra, Piara S |
| Etherington, Bill | Kidney, David |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret | Kilfoyle, Peter |
| Fisher, Mark | King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth) |
| Fitzpatrick, Jim | Kingham, Ms Tess |
| Fitzsimons, Lorna | Kumar, Dr Ashok |
| Flint, Caroline | Ladyman, Dr Stephen |
| Flynn, Paul | Lawrence, Ms Jackie |
| Follett, Barbara | Laxton, Bob |
| Foster, Rt Hon Derek | Leslie, Christopher |
| Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings) | Levitt, Tom |
| Foster, Michael J (Worcester) | Lewis, Ivan (Bury S) |
| Fyfe, Maria | Lewis, Terry (Worsley) |
| Galbraith, Sam | Linton, Martin |
| Galloway, George | Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C) |
| Gapes, Mike | Llwyd, Elfyn |
| George, Bruce (Walsall S) | Lock, David |
| Gerrard, Neil | Love, Andrew |
| Gibson, De Ian | McAvoy, Thomas |
| Gilroy, Mrs Linda | McCabe, Steve |
| Godman, Dr Norman A | McCafferty, Ms Chris |
| Godsiff, Roger | McDonagh, Siobhain |
| Goggins, Paul | Macdonald, Calum |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | McGuire, Mrs Anne |
| Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) | McIsaac, Shona |
| Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Mackinlay, Andrew |
| Griffiths Win (Bridgend) | McNulty, Tony |
| Grocott, Bruce | MacShane, Denis |
| Grogan, John | Mactaggart, Fiona |
| Gunnell, John | McWalter, Tony |
| Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) | McWilliam, John |
| Harvey, Nick | Mahon, Mrs Alice |
| Heal, Mrs Sylvia | Mallaber, Judy |
| Healey, John | Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S) |
| Health, David (Somerton & Frome) | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N) | Martlew, Eric |
| Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) | Meale, Alan |
| Hepburn, Stephen | Merron, Gillian |
| Heppell, John | Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute) |
| Hesford, Stephen | Milburn, Alan |
| Miller, Andrew | Smith, Angela (Basildon) |
| Moffatt, Laura | Smith, Jacqui (Redditch) |
| Moore, Michael | Smith, John (Glamorgan) |
| Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N) | Soley, Clive |
| Morgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W) | Southworth, Ms Helen |
| Morley, Elliot | Squire, Ms Rachel |
| Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley) | Starkey, Dr Phyllis |
| Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Mullin, Chris | Stevenson, George |
| Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck) | Stewart, David (Inverness E) |
| Murphy, Jim (Eastwood) | Stewart, Ian (Eccles) |
| Naysmith, Dr Doug | Stoate, Dr Howard |
| Norris, Dan | Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin |
| O'Brien, Bill (Normanton) | Straw, Rt Hon Jack |
| O'Brien, Mike (N Warks) | Stringer, Graham |
| Olner, Bill | Stuart, Ms Gisela |
| O'Neill, Martin | Stunell, Andrew |
| ÖPik,Lembit | Sutcliffe, Gerry |
| Organ, Mrs Diana | Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann |
| Osborne, Ms Sandra | (Dewsbury) |
| Palmer, Dr Nick | Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S) |
| Pearson, Ian | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Pendry, Tom | Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W) |
| Pickthall, Colin | Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W) |
| Pike, Peter L | Timms, Stephen |
| Plaskitt, James | Tipping, Paddy |
| Pollard, Kerry | Todd, Mark |
| Pond, Chris | Touhig, Don |
| Pope, Greg | Trickett, Jon |
| Pound, Stephen | Truswell, Paul |
| Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E) | Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE) |
| Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) | Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown) |
| Prescott, Rt Hon John | Turner, Dr George(NW Norfolk) |
| Prosser, Gwyn | Twigg, Derek (Halton) |
| Purchase, Ken | Twigg, Stephen (Enfield) |
| Radice, Giles | Tyler, Paul |
| Rammell, Bill | Vaz, Keith |
| Rapson, Syd | Wallace, James |
| Reed, Andrew (Loughborough) | Ward, Ms Claire |
| Robertson, Rt Hon George | Wareing, Robert N |
| (Hamilton S) | Watts, David |
| Rooker, Jeff | Webb, Steve |
| Rooney, Terry | Welsh, Andrew |
| Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) | White, Brian |
| Roy, Frank | Whitehead, Dr Alan |
| Ruane, Chris | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Russell, Ms Christine (Chester) | Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen) |
| Ryan, Ms Joan | Wills, Michael |
| Salter, Martin | Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C) |
| Sawford, Phil | Worthington, Tony |
| Sedgemore, Brian | Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth) |
| Shaw, Jonathan | Wyatt, Derek |
| Sheerman, Barry | Tellers For the Ayes: |
| Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert | Mr. David Hanson and |
| Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E) | Mr. Clive Betts. |
| NOES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey) | Chapman, Sir Sydney |
| Amess, David | (Chipping Barnet) |
| Ancram, Rt Hon Michael | Chope, Christopher |
| Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James | Clappison, James |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth |
| Baldry, Tony | (Rushcliffe) |
| Bercow, John | Cormack, Sir Patrick |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Cran, James |
| Blunt, Crispin | Davies, Quentin (Grantham) |
| Body, Sir Richard | Day, Stephen |
| Boswell, Tim | Duncan Smith, Iain |
| Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W) | Evans, Nigel |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia | Faber, David |
| Brady, Graham | Fabricant, Michael |
| Brazier, Julian | Flight, Howard |
| Browning, Mrs Angela | Forth, Rt Hon Eric |
| Burns, Simon | Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman |
| Butterfill, John | Fox, Dr Liam |
| Fraser, Christopher | Ottaway, Richard |
| Gale, Roger | Page, Richard |
| Gibb, Nick | Paice, James |
| Gill, Christopher | Pickles, Eric |
| Gillan, Mrs Cheryl | Prior, David |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Randall, John |
| Gray, James | Redwood, Rt Hon John |
| Green, Damian | Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry) |
| Greenway, John | Rowe, Andrew (Faversham) |
| Grieve, Dominic | Ruffley, David |
| Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie | St Aubyn, Nick |
| Hammond, Philip | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Hawkins, Nick | Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian |
| Hayes, John | Shepherd, Richard |
| Heald, Oliver | Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk) |
| Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David | Soames, Nicholas |
| Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot) | Spelman, Mrs Caroline |
| Hunter, Andrew | Spicer, Sir Michael |
| Jack, Rt Hon Michael | Spring, Richard |
| Jenkin, Bernard | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Johnson Smith, | Swayne, Desmond |
| Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Syms, Robert |
| Key, Robert | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Kirkbride, Miss Julie | Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton) |
| Laing, Mrs Eleanor | Taylor, Sir Teddy |
| Lansley, Andrew | Tredinnick, David |
| Leigh, Edward | Trend, Michael |
| Letwin, Oliver | Viggers, Peter |
| Lidington, David | Walter, Robert |
| Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham) | Wardle, Charles |
| Loughton, Tim | Waterson, Nigel |
| Luff, Peter | Wells, Bowen |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Whitney, Sir Raymond |
| McIntosh, Miss Anne | Whittingdale, John |
| MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew | Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann |
| Maclean, Rt Hon David | Wilkinson, John |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Willetts, David |
| Madel, Sir David | Wilshire, David |
| Malins, Humfrey | Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) |
| Maples, John | Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield) |
| Mates, Michael | Woodward, Shaun |
| Maude, Rt Hon Francis | Yeo, Tim |
| Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brain | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| May, Mrs Theresa | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Moss, Malcolm | Mr. John M. Taylor and |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Mr. Tim Collins. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Amendment in lieu of the Lords amendments agreed to.