§ Mr. William Thompson (West Tyrone)I beg to move amendment No. 10, in page 2, line 5, at end insert—
the Government of Ireland" means the Government of the Republic of Ireland, as defined in section 1 of the Ireland Act 1949.'.In Committee, an amendment was tabled so that, in clause 1(2), the Bill would refer to the Government of the Republic of Ireland instead of the Government of Ireland. That was resisted by the Government. The Minister first described the importance of terminology in Northern Ireland, and then explained that the British Government had agreed to the Irish Government's wish to be termed "the Government of Ireland" in British legislation.I understand that the Minister and the Government believe that they are entitled to make such a change because of the use of the word "may" in the Ireland Act 1949. Clearly, there are those of us who doubt that that is possible under the Act. There needs to be clarification of 573 the matter. Those of us who are Unionists are very concerned when we see in United Kingdom legislation for the first time the term "the Government of Ireland". It makes us rather suspicious of what is going on.
I have tabled the amendment for clarity. Accepting it would confirm that "the Government of Ireland" means "the Government of the Republic of Ireland", as defined in section 1 of the Ireland Act 1949. That would make clear that references to the Government of Ireland are to 26 and not 32 counties, which would give some solace to those of us who are Unionists.
§ Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East)I support my hon. Friend's amendment. By far the best way for the Government to deal with the matter would have been to maintain the conventions and precedents of the House and continue to refer to "the Government of the Republic of Ireland" as such. It is an outrage that the Government of the Irish Republic should lay claim to the territory of Northern Ireland in their title.
Although we were told that the Belfast agreement was designed to remove the territorial claim over Northern Ireland, the title that the Government of the Republic have adopted for themselves, and which they require to be used in British legislation, is in itself a territorial claim. The term "the Government of Ireland" clearly suggests that that Government govern the whole of the island, not just part of it. That is the distinction between "the Government of the Republic of Ireland" and "the Government of Ireland" as a whole.
The Minister has therefore allowed the Government of the Republic of Ireland to lay claim to part of the territory of the United Kingdom. If the amendment is not acceptable, the Minister must go back and consider the whole issue of the naming of the Dublin Government, so that the title used clearly shows that they are responsible only for the 26 counties in the Irish Republic.
§ 6 pm
§ Rev. Ian PaisleyI support my colleagues on this issue. It amazed me that the Minister admitted that during the talks the Irish Republic's representatives were prepared for the first time to use the proper title of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That is not the title that the Republic uses in its legislation.
I would have thought that, if the Minister was so keen to achieve a balance, he would say to the Republic, "If you want us to use your title in our legislation, you must reciprocate." The trouble is that throughout the Bill the Government have leaned over backwards to accommodate the claims and wishes of the Irish Republic. We see that with the abolition of the 1920 Act, despite the fact that the referendum outcome in the south does not come into operation with regard to the territorial claim until the Republic is satisfied that everything is going according to its wishes. The Minister should have insisted.
I must take up the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson)—that the present terminology represents an effort by the Government of the Irish Republic to insist on their territorial claim. The proper name of the south, chosen by itself, is the Republic of Ireland, which defines the 26 counties. Why, when the Republic is supposed to have 574 given up its claim, is the Minister insisting on recognising that claim by putting the title "the Government of Ireland" into the Bill?
§ Mr. GrieveThere appears to be some force to the amendment, for reasons that I shall explain. I fully understand the Government's position that in the course of the negotiations it was agreed—it was a matter of mutual respect between two sovereign states—that the descriptions used should be those by which each state wished to be known. In one case that description was "the Government of Ireland" and I understand that there is reciprocity in relation to the United Kingdom.
Everybody will know that both those descriptions are capable of interpretation, and that in reality the interpretation of the reference to "the Government of Ireland" is indeed the Government of the Republic of Ireland—as, I suspect, it is defined in section 1 of the Ireland Act 1949. Whether that fact appeared at this point in the Bill or simply in the interpretation clause, it would clear up an ambiguity that seems to have troubled Unionist Members while, I respectfully suggest, in no way derogating from the manner in which, in the text of the agreement and the Bill, proper reference is made to the Government of Ireland.
§ Mr. Paul MurphyWe went over the ground at some length in Committee, and I do not want to burden the House with a long debate on the issue now. However, the hon. Members for Belfast, East and for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley) attribute much more power to me than I possess; it is not right to suggest that the territorial claim on the north is a consequence of my actions.
Certainly the terms of the agreement are reproduced in the Bill, and during the negotiations leading up to that agreement a great deal of what I consider to be improvement took place in the way in which we describe the countries from which we each come. The Irish prefer the term "the Government of Ireland" and we, of course, prefer our right name—"the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
As I told the House some days ago, that was the first time that that had happened, and I think that it was a significant milestone in the way in which we deal with the nomenclature. It is not right to suggest that the terminology represents a territorial claim; it certainly does not. All it represents is a reasonable and sensible compromise—an agreement arrived at in the talks, put into the agreement and now reproduced in the Bill.
If we used anything other than those two terms—"the Government of Ireland" and "the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"—we would be going against the spirit of the agreement. I cannot accept the amendment because I believe that progress was made on the subject in the talks, so I ask the hon. Member for West Tyrone (Mr. Thompson) to withdraw it.
§ Mr. ThompsonThe Minister has spoken a lot about what went on before the agreement was signed. He has also said that it was agreed that the words "the Government of Ireland" should be used, and those words appear on the face of the Bill. The problem is that those of us who are Unionists are not happy with the use of that term. If "the Government of Ireland" means the 575 Government of the Republic of Ireland, there seems no reason why the Government cannot use that term, at least when explaining what the words "the Government of Ireland" mean.
§ Rev. Ian PaisleyIs it not strange that the statement that the Minister has now made was not announced at the talks while they were going on? It was not announced that the two Governments had decided to call each other by those names. If that was such an important matter and there was a great feeling of unanimity, hatchets had been buried and bows and arrows put away, they should have announced it. The people at the talks never heard about it. When we attended the talks the matter was never mentioned, and I am told by those who were in the talks to the end that it was never mentioned.
§ Mr. ThompsonThose of us who were present for the Committee stage will realise that many of the amendments that were accepted came from the Government, while few if any amendments have been accepted from the Opposition. It should be remembered that those of us who sit on this side of the House represent the vast majority of the people in Northern Ireland.[Interruption.]
§ Mr. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire)Am I to understand that, notwithstanding the points that the Minister has made and the fact that the agreement seems to have been quite clear, the term is causing a serious and genuine problem and concern among Unionists in Northern Ireland, and that there is some feeling that the ground has shifted a bit because of the use of that terminology instead of the terminology that would more conventionally be used by people in Northern Ireland?
§ Mr. ThompsonI heard the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) suggesting that we do not represent the majority of the people of Northern Ireland—but 13 Unionist Members of Parliament out of 18 seems to me to be a fair majority.
§ Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down)I noticed during our previous debate that the hon. Gentleman had great difficulty in accepting the normal interpretation of mathematics: 71 per cent. is the great majority, not the 29 per cent. that he now represents. May I ask him further to correct his suggestion that the terminology to which he objects and to which his amendment relates was not mentioned in the document but was in some way kept secret? The agreement document states, in bold, clear print, that the agreement is
between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of Ireland.Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the document was sent to every household in Northern Ireland and that the people of Northern Ireland voted to support it?
§ Mr. ThompsonI am not disputing the words in the agreement. We are discussing what the words actually mean—that is the issue. The Government say that, in the Bill, the Government of Ireland means the Government of the Republic of Ireland—at least, I think that is what they are saying. However, I suspect that when the hon. 576 Gentleman refers to the Government of Ireland, he does not mean the Government of the Republic of Ireland as we understand it—the 26 counties.
§ Mr. Paul MurphyI want to put it on the record of the House of Commons that, in this debate and in the Bill, the Government of Ireland means the Government of the Republic of Ireland—of course it means that. The Bill replicates the words of the agreement, so it does not need to be changed.
§ Mr. ThompsonThe Minister has made the position very clear, and it is good to have it on the record, although I suspect that it will not make the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) very happy, as he means something different by the phrase. There is no doubt that the words of the agreement are in the Bill, but we want clarification; we want what the Minister said to be confirmed. Why cannot the Government accept the amendment?
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 10, Noes 257.
578| Division No. 354] | [6.11 pm |
| AYES | |
| Donaldson, Jeffrey | Shaw, Jonathan |
| Forsythe, Clifford | Taylor, Rt Hon John D (Strangford) |
| Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot) | Thompson, William |
| Hunter, Andrew | |
| Paisley, Rev Ian | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Robinson, Peter (Belfast E) | Rev. Martin Smyth and Mr. Roy Beggs. |
| Ross, William (E Lond'y) |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Butler, Mrs Christine |
| Ainger, Nick | Byers, Stephen |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Caborn, Richard |
| Alexander, Douglas | Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) |
| Allan, Richard | Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) |
| Allen, Graham | Canavan, Dennis |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Cann, Jamie |
| Anderson, Janet (Rossendale) | Casale, Roger |
| Armstrong, Ms Hilary | Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) |
| Atherton, Ms Candy | Chaytor, David |
| Atkins, Charlotte | Chisholm, Malcolm |
| Austin, John | Clapham, Michael |
| Baker, Norman | Clark, Paul (Gillingham) |
| Ballard, Jackie | Clarke, Charles (Norwich S) |
| Barron, Kevin | Clarke, Tony (Northampton S) |
| Battle, John | Coffey, Ms Ann |
| Beard, Nigel | Cohen, Harry |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret | Coleman, Iain |
| Beith, Rt Hon A J | Colman, Tony |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Connarty, Michael |
| Bennett, Andrew F | Cooper, Yvette |
| Benton, Joe | Corbett, Robin |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Corbyn, Jeremy |
| Berry, Roger | Corston, Ms Jean |
| Best, Harold | Cotter, Brian |
| Betts, Clive | Cousins, Jim |
| Blears, Ms Hazel | Cox, Tom |
| Blizzard, Bob | Crausby, David |
| Boateng, Paul | Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley) |
| Borrow, David | Cryer, John (Hornchurch) |
| Bradley, Keith (Withington) | Dalyell, Tam |
| Brinton, Mrs Helen | Davey, Valerie (Bristol W) |
| Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E) | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Browne, Desmond | Davies, Geraint (Croydon C) |
| Buck, Ms Karen | Dean, Mrs Janet |
| Burden, Richard | Denham, John |
| Burgon, Colin | Dismore, Andrew |
| Burnett, John | Dobbin, Jim |
| Dobson, Rt Hon Frank | McCabe, Steve |
| Doran, Frank | McCafferty, Ms Chris |
| Dowd, Jim | McCartney, Ian (Makerfield) |
| Drew, David | McDonagh, Siobhain |
| Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | Macdonald, Calum |
| Eagle, Angela (Wallasey) | McDonnell, John |
| Efford, Clive | McFall, John |
| Ennis, Jeff | McGrady, Eddie |
| Etherington, Bill | McGuire, Mrs Anne |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret | McIsaac, Shona |
| Fearn, Ronnie | McNamara, Kevin |
| Field, Rt Hon Frank | McWalter, Tony |
| Fisher, Mark | McWilliam, John |
| Fitzpatrick, Jim | Mallaber, Judy |
| Flynn, Paul | Mandelson, Peter |
| Foster, Rt Hon Derek | Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S) |
| Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings) | Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury) |
| Foulkes, George | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Fyfe, Maria | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Gapes, Mike | Meale, Alan |
| Gerrard, Neil | Michael, Alun |
| Gibson, Dr Ian | Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley) |
| Godman, Dr Norman A | Miller, Andrew |
| Godsiff, Roger | Mitchell, Austin |
| Goggins, Paul | Moffatt, Laura |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Moonie, Dr Lewis |
| Gordon, Mrs Eileen | Moran, Ms Margaret |
| Gorrie, Donald | Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N) |
| Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) | Morgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W) |
| Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Morley, Elliot |
| Grocott, Bruce | Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
| Hain, Peter | Mowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie |
| Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) | Mudie, George |
| Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE) | Mullin, Chris |
| Hancock, Mike | Murphy, Paul (Torfaen) |
| Hanson, David | O'Brien, Mike (N Warks) |
| Heath, David (Somerton & Frome) | Olner, Bill |
| Heppell, John | Öpik, Lembit |
| Hewitt, Ms Patricia | Palmer, Dr Nick |
| Hodge, Ms Margaret | Pendry, Tom |
| Hoey, Kate | Perham, Ms Linda |
| Hood, Jimmy | Pickthall, Colin |
| Hoon, Geoffrey | Pike, Peter L |
| Hopkins, Kelvin | Plaskitt, James |
| Howarth, Alan (Newport E) | Pollard, Kerry |
| Howells, Dr Kim | Pond, Chris |
| Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) | Pope, Greg |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark N) | Pound, Stephen |
| Hurst, Alan | Powell, Sir Raymond |
| Hutton, John | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E) |
| Iddon, Dr Brian | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| Illsley, Eric | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Ingram, Adam | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead) | Rammell, Bill |
| Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough) | Raynsford, Nick |
| Jamieson, David | Rendel, David |
| Jenkins, Brian | Robertson, Rt Hon George (Hamilton S) |
| Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle) | |
| Jones, Ms Jenny (Wolverh'ton SW) | Rooker, Jeff |
| Rowlands, Ted | |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S) | Ruddock, Ms Joan |
| Jowell, Ms Tessa | Russell, Bob (Colchester) |
| Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston) | Ryan, Ms Joan |
| Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth) | Salter, Martin |
| Keetch, Paul | Sarwar, Mohammad |
| Kemp, Fraser | Savidge, Malcolm |
| Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree) | Sawford, Phil |
| Kingham, Ms Tess | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Kirkwood, Archy | Shaw, Jonathan |
| Ladyman, Dr Stephen | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Lepper, David | Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S) |
| Leslie, Christopher | Skinner, Dennis |
| Linton, Martin | Smith, Angela (Basildon) |
| Livingstone, Ken | Smith, John (Glamorgan) |
| McAllion, John | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Soley, Clive |
| Squire, Ms Rachel | Twigg, Stephen (Enfield) |
| Starkey, Dr Phyllis | Vaz, Keith |
| Stevenson, George | Vis, Dr Rudi |
| Stewart, Ian (Eccles) | Ward, Ms Claire |
| Straw, Rt Hon Jack | White, Brian |
| Stuart, Ms Gisela | Whitehead, Dr Alan |
| Sutcliffe, Gerry | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) | Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen) |
| Wills, Michael | |
| Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S) | Winnick, David |
| Taylor, David (NW Leics) | Wise, Audrey |
| Taylor, Matthew (Truro) | Wood, Mike |
| Temple-Morris, Peter | Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth) |
| Timms, Stephen | Wyatt, Derek |
| Todd, Mark | |
| Tonge, Dr Jenny | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Touhig, Don | Mr. David Clelland and Mr. Keith Hill. |
| Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown) |
§ Question accordingly negatived.