§ Mr. DavidsonI beg to move amendment No. 240, in page 53, leave out lines 6 to 9 and insert
'the parliamentary constituencies in Scotland'.
§ The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr. Michael Lord)With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 205, in page 53, leave out lines 8 and 9 and insert—
'(c) the Western Isles, and(d) seventy constituencies covering the mainland of Scotland to be determined b the Boundary Commission for Scotland in a way which ensures that the average electorate for constituencies lying wholly or partly within the unitary local authorities of Highland, Aberdeenshire, Moray, Argyll and Bute, City of Aberdeen, City of Dundee, Angus, Perthshire and Kinross, Stirling, Dumfries and Galloway and the Scottish Borders are lower than those lying wholly or partly within other unitary local authorities in Scotland.'.No. 113, in page 53, line 9, at end insert—
'(1A) The parliamentary constituencies to which paragraph 1(c) applies are those determined by the Parliamentary Constituencies (Scotland) Order 1995, or those Scottish parliamentary constituencies determined following a report of the Boundary Commission for Scotland as determined by paragraph 3 of this Schedule, except a parliamentary constituency including either of those islands referred to in paragraphs 1(a) and 1(b).'.No. 114, in page 53, leave out lines 15 to 17.No. 115, in page 53, leave out lines 18 to 37 and insert—'Redistribution of Scottish Parliamentary constituencies—
3.—(1) The Boundary Commission for Scotland shall keep under review the representation in the Scottish Parliament and shall submit to the Scottish Executive a report either:—
- (a) showing the constituencies into which they recommend that Scotland should be divided in order to give effect to the rules set out in Schedule 2 (subject to paragraph 7 thereof) to the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986 (hereinafter referred to as the 1986 Act) in so far as they apply to Scotland, or
- (b) stating that, in the opinion of the Commission, no alteration is required to be made in order to give effect to the rules set out in Schedule 2 (subject to paragraph 7 thereof).
(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 81 of this Act, the rules in Schedule 2 of the 1986 Act as they apply to Scotland shall have effect in relation to the redistribution of the Parliamentary constituencies in paragraph 1(c).(3) Subject to sub—paragraph (5), the provisions in sections 3, 5, and 6 of the 1986 Act shall, in so far as they apply to Scotland, have effect in relation to the reports and the workings of the Boundary Commission for Scotland's review of Parliamentary constituencies for the Scottish Parliament.452(4) Subject to sub—paragraph (5), the provisions of section 4 of the 1986 Act shall have effect in relation to the draft of any Order in Council laid before the Scottish Parliament by the Scottish Executive for giving effect, whether with or without modifications, to the recommendations contained in the report of the Boundary Commission for Scotland.(5) References to the Secretary of State in the 1986 Act shall, for the purposes of this paragraph, be construed as references to the Scottish Executive and references to "Parliament" in the 1986 Act shall be construed as references to the Scottish Parliament.(6) The Boundary Commission for Scotland shall submit its first report under this paragraph to the Scottish Executive no later than 30th June 2005.(7) In the report, the Commission shall also recommend any alteration in any of the regions which, in their opinion, is required to be made in order to give effect to the rules in paragraph 7.(8) If the Commission do not make any such recommendation under sub—paragraph (7), they shall in the report state that, in their opinion no such alteration is required.(9) A report making a recommendation for an alteration in any region shall state the name by which the Commission recommend that the region should be known.'No. 116, in page 53, leave out lines 38 to 43.No. 117, in page 53, line 46, leave out '3(2)' and insert '3(7)'.
No. 236, in page 54, line 49, leave out '73' and insert '72'.
§ Mr. DavidsonI shall speak speedily on this matter, as much of the ground has been covered. If this is to be a Parliament for all Scots, and all Scots are to be equal, is it fair that some should be more equal than others? Is it fair that 15,000 Orcadians should have a parliamentary representative in the Scottish Parliament—the same as 66,000 people in Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley? Where is the proportionality in that system? There are undoubtedly problems in Orkney caused by remoteness, but we must recognise that those may be met in many ways; perhaps by providing additional staff to the MSP for Orkney. The Scottish Parliament must take account of the special problems faced by people in remote areas, but not necessarily by making additional provision for them at the centre.
I have listened over the years to Liberals calling for fair votes, but at the first whiff of advantage to themselves, they grab it. "A Liberal seat for 15,000 votes? That will do nicely." Their fine words are easily jettisoned for partisan advantage. I understand why this is being done—clearly a deal has been struck to keep the Liberal Democrats on board.
§ Dr. Peter Brand (Isle of Wight)Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that there are Liberal Democrats in this place who represent as many as 104,000 people—also on an island—who receive no recognition?
§ Mr. DavidsonThat island, unless I am mistaken, is not within Scotland and is therefore not covered by the Bill. That seems to be a not unreasonable point to make.
Clearly, a back-door deal was done—we can expect many such deals under coalition politics—but there was also an attempt to be inclusive, to try to draw in the marginalised and take special account of those in rural areas, which I welcome. My reservation concerns who is the most marginalised and alienated in Scotland today. I am not convinced that it is the people of Orkney. 453 There are more people on social security in my constituency than in the whole of Orkney. In my constituency, the unemployment rate is more than three times as high as in Orkney and Shetland. There are twice as many car owners in Orkney than in my constituency. There are three times more lone parents in my constituency as in Orkney, all of whom need representation. Twice the percentage of people in my constituency have long-term illness.
9.45 pm
Education, in particular, illustrates the issue of need and representation. In 1995–96, 72 school leavers from secondary schools in my constituency went on to full-time higher education; in Orkney, the figure was 120. From a population that is less than a third of that of my constituency, many more went on to further and higher education. Who, in those circumstances, is most in need of greater representation? In my view, those who are poor are in greater need than those who are much better off.
Another statistic is worth citing. In my constituency, 23 per cent. of school leavers went on to what are described as other known destinations; in Orkney, it was 8 per cent. "Other known destinations" generally means unemployment, which is far higher among young people in my constituency than in Orkney. Why, then, should the constituents of the hon. and learned Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) require three times the representation? That is not fair, proportionate or reasonable.
In my constituency, 19 per cent. of part-time workers earn less than £2.50 an hour. The equivalent figure for Orkney is less than 3 per cent. Who in those circumstances is most in need of representation at a Scottish Parliament?
There has clearly been an understandable concession to an articulate, well-organised lobby. I fear that there will be concessions and special arrangements in the Scottish Parliament for those who are articulate and able to operate the system as, to their credit, the Orcadians have done in this case. Orkney gets a seat to itself, but what about the socially excluded, on the margins of society? What guarantee is there that they will also be provided for?
That is my reservation about the imbalance in representation. I have no particular antagonism towards the Orcadians, who I am sure are all fine upstanding citizens.
§ Mr. WallaceI am moved to reply to that onslaught from the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. Davidson). It was an interesting speech, and betrayed the central Scotland, old Labour mentality that makes this arrangement necessary to ensure that the islands have proper representation. I do not in any way diminish or disparage the social, employment, education and health problems faced by the hon. Gentleman's constituency, and I very much hope that the creation of a Scottish Parliament will be a more effective way of dealing with them than Westminster has been for many years, but he must recognise that constituencies have traditionally been based on geography.
It would be an interesting concept if we started to arrange constituencies on a different basis—perhaps on the basis of car owners or non-car owners; numbers of people who go on to higher education; relative number of sheep; or some other criterion. It could create some interesting cross-party 454 alliances. Of course, that is not how it is done. To be serious, the reason why Orkney and Shetland secured separate representation was nothing to do with secret deals in secret rooms. Representatives of the island areas in the constitutional convention—not only me as Member of Parliament but members of Orkney islands council, Shetland islands council and the Orkney and Shetland movement—argued the case before the convention.
As the hon. Member for Pollok, who is a member of the convention, knows full well, the convention proceeded only by agreement and consensus. The argument made by representatives of the islands persuaded the convention. The recommendation that there should be separate representation for Orkney and Shetland is contained in the convention document. I cannot recall whether the hon. Member for Pollok was present on 30 November 1995 when we all signed the document, but if he was, he signed it, too.
In the context of the referendum, separate representation was important in persuading my constituents to vote yes. Let it be recalled that, in 1979, they recorded a 72 or 73 per cent. vote against devolution. In the referendum last year, both sets of islands recorded a majority vote in favour of the proposals. Although Orkney and Shetland are linked together for the Westminster parliamentary seat, they are two distinct sets of islands. If Glasgow, Pollok was the southernmost part of my constituency, the most northern part would be Dingwall. That is a substantial area to cover, even though the population is relatively small.
Amendments Nos. 113 to 117 seek to ensure that, once the number of Scottish Members of Parliament in the Palace of Westminster is reduced—something that we recommended and the Government accepted—the number of Members of the Scottish Parliament should remain roughly the same as now—129, rather than 105 or 106. There are a number of reasons for that, not least that the Parliament will operate substantially on a Committee basis, and a certain number of Members is necessary to run Committees.
It was foreseen by the constitutional convention that there might be a reduction in the number of MSPs. The convention was of the opinion that there should be a separate boundary commission to examine Scottish constituencies for the Scottish Parliament, which is what I and my hon. Friends have set out in amendment No. 115. I acknowledge that schedule 1 contains an effort to maintain the ratio of 73:56. Perhaps we have to work out the arithmetic in much more detail. Our concern is that the smaller the number of additional Members, the lower the chance of obtaining good proportionality. Our principal concern is that the degree of proportionality could be lost if the overall number, and the number of top-up Members, were reduced.
I hope that the Government are prepared to retain the proportionality that we thought we had agreed. I hope that the Minister will express a willingness to look at that.
§ Dr. FoxThe amendment tabled in my name and those of my right hon. and hon. Friends would protect against central belt dominance, which was one of the great themes to emerge during the referendum campaign. Whenever one went outwith the central belt, people had a genuine fear that between Glasgow and Edinburgh the political parties and the cliques that dominated the parties in those areas would have a disproportionate say over what 455 happened in the Scottish Parliament and over the Scottish agenda. That is not a figment of the imagination of the Conservative party. Other hon. Members have said that there is a genuine fear that the central belt will be unduly dominant.
The Bill already specifies special treatment for Orkney and Shetland. The Western Isles have the smallest electorate in Scotland. In our amendment, we merely extend the principle that they should have separate representation and that the numbers in directly elected Member constituencies in non-central belt areas should be smaller. Anyone who represents a rural constituency will know that there is a great deal more travelling and logistical difficulty in representing a rural seat than in representing an urban seat.
At the moment, many of the electorates in Glasgow and other west of Scotland seats are smaller than some in the highlands of the north-east. For example, Glasgow, Anniesland has an electorate of 52,955 while Inverness, East, Nairn and Lochaber has one of 65,701. Given the huge geographical area that needs to be covered in the latter, it seems only sensible that the electorates in the rural seats should be cut and those in the urban seats increased so that there is some sort of matching between the two.
§ Mr. HayesMy hon. Friend is developing an interesting theme. Will he concede that much of the debate in Scotland has not been about isolation from this place and the supremacy of this Parliament, but about the separation of the people and power? It does not matter whether that power is vested in this Parliament or in the central belt. People in rural Scotland would feel just as remote in the exercise of political power if it was dominated by the central belt of Scotland.
§ Dr. FoxThere is a genuine worry about the exercise of power in the central belt. One of the worries that we dealt with in the previous set of amendments concerned the closed list, which the Minister mentioned in his reply, although, given some of the assurances, I am still not yet convinced that that particular threat has been removed.
However, it is important that the rural-urban split is dealt with early on, because it is extremely important to give confidence to areas outwith the central belt at the outset of the political process. We are seeing in general in the House a growing rural-urban split in our politics. It would be extremely unfortunate if that particular brand of politics, which seems to be seeping into the House and which was well displayed yesterday, was to poison the Scottish Parliament at the outset. Some of the arguments made earlier on that were important.
As the link between Westminster and the Scottish parliamentary seats is broken down under the system proposed by the Liberal Democrats, there would be a reduction in Scottish representation at Westminster, but what would then happen in the Scottish Parliament. Do they propose that even though Scottish representation in this House might fall, as the Government envisage, the number of seats in the Scottish Parliament would remain the same?
§ Mr. WallaceThat is precisely what would happen, because the rule that there must be no fewer than 71 seats in Scotland would continue to apply when the Boundary Commission addressed the question of seats in the Scottish Parliament.
§ Dr. FoxThe problem is that the electorate may see that as simply jobs for the boys. When Scotland's representation was being cut at Westminster, why should Scottish taxpayers continue to pay for the same number of people in the Scottish Parliament? If there were less for Scottish Members to do in this House, why should they continue to pay for a vast new bureaucratic army to sit in the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh? We could not support the amendment because of that. I understand what the hon. and learned Gentleman is seeking to do in terms of proportionality, but I cannot accept the amendment, because there would be a disproportionate cost later.
I am sorry that the Minister is being pushed on this, but I look forward to his answer. I hope that he will take extremely seriously the point that Liberal Democrat Members and I have made concerning the problems of rural seats and the disparities between the electorates. That problem was mentioned time and again during the referendum and the Government said that they would try to put it right as best they could. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.
§ Mr. McLeishI shall try briefly to deal with amendments Nos. 113 to 117. The Government are committed to the maintenance of the United Kingdom. We believe that the integrity of the Union will be strengthened by having common constituencies for the Scottish and United Kingdom Parliaments, with the exception of Orkney and Shetland where separate representation in the Scottish Parliament will be guaranteed. The Bill provides that.
I know that the hon. and learned Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) has given considerable thought to the amendments and there are arguments on both sides, but we believe that the Bill strikes the right balance. I am mindful that he might not wish to press the amendments to a vote this evening; if that is the case, we shall have a chance to look further at the arguments involved.
I have listened with care to the arguments advanced by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. Davidson) in respect of amendments Nos. 233 and 240, but I cannot accept the amendments. The Government gave a commitment in the White Paper that there should be separate constituency Members for the Orkney islands and the Shetland islands and that the present UK Parliament constituency would be split for that purpose. The Government believe that such representation is important to ensure that the interests of the northern isles are properly reflected in the deliberations of the Scottish Parliament.
That embraces the points made by the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) that rural areas must be properly represented. That is the purpose of the Bill, and we can deliver on those options.
§ Mr. DavidsonI beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Motion made, and Question put That this schedule be the Frist schedule to the Bill:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 341, Noes 73.
412| Division No. 142] | [7 pm |
| AYES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey) | Lansley, Andrew |
| Amess, David | Leigh, Edward |
| Ancram, Rt Hon Michael | Letwin, Oliver |
| Arbuthnot, James | Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E) |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Lidington, David |
| Baldry, Tony | Lilley, Rt Hon Peter |
| Bercow, John | Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham) |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Loughton, Tim |
| Body, Sir Richard | Luff, Peter |
| Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W) | Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia | McCartney, Robert (N Down) |
| Brady, Graham | MacKay, Andrew |
| Brazier, Julian | Maclean, Rt Hon David |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Browning, Mrs Angela | Madel, Sir David |
| Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Malins, Humfrey |
| Burns, Simon | Mates, Michael |
| Cash, William | Maude, Rt Hon Francis |
| Chope, Christopher | Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian |
| Clark, Rt Hon Alan (Kensington) | Moss, Malcolm |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh) | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Norman, Archie |
| Ottaway, Richard | |
| Clifton—Brown, Geoffrey | Page, Richard |
| Collins, Tim | Paice, James |
| Cormack, Sir Patrick | Paterson, Owen |
| Curry, Rt Hon David | Prior, David |
| Davies, Quentin (Grantham) | Randall, John |
| Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice) | Redwood, Rt Hon John |
| Day, Stephen | Robathan, Andrew |
| Duncan Alan | Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry) |
| Duncan Smith, Iain | Robinson, Peter (Belfast E) |
| Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) |
| Evans, Nigel | Rowe, Andrew (Faversham) |
| Fallon, Michael | Ruffley, David |
| Flight, Howard | St Aubyn, Nick |
| Forth, Rt Hon Eric | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman | Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian |
| Fox, Dr Liam | Shepherd, Richard |
| Fraser, Christopher | Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk) |
| Gale, Roger | Soames, Nicholas |
| Garnier, Edward | Spelman, Mrs Caroline |
| Gibb, Nick | Spicer, Sir Michael |
| Gillan, Mrs Cheryl | Spring, Richard |
| Goodlad, Rt Hon Sir Alastair | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Steen, Anthony |
| Swayne, Desmond | |
| Gray, James | Syms, Robert |
| Greenway, John | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Grieve, Dominic | Taylor, John M (Solihull) |
| Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie | Taylor, Sir Teddy |
| Hammond, Philip | Trend, Michael |
| Hawkins, Nick | Tyrie, Andrew |
| Hayes, John | Viggers, Peter |
| Heald, Oliver | Walter, Robert |
| Heathcoat—Amory, Rt Hon David | Wardle, Charles |
| Horam, John | Wells, Bowen |
| Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot) | Whittingdale, John |
| Hunter, Andrew | Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann |
| Jack, Rt Hon Michael | Willetts, David |
| Jackson, Robert (Wantage) | Woodward, Shaun |
| Jenkin, Bemard | Yeo, Tim |
| Johnson Smith, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| Key, Robert | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater) | Mr. James Cran and |
| Kirkbride, Miss Julie | Mr. Nigel Waterson. |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Allan, Richard |
| Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N) | Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) |
| Anderson, Janet (Rossendale) | |
| Ainger, Nick | Armstrong, Ms Hilary |
| Alexander, Douglas | Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy |
| Ashton, Joe | Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John (Copeland) |
| Austin, John | |
| Baker, Norman | Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S) |
| Ballard, Mrs Jackie | Cunningham, Ms Roseanna (Perth) |
| Banks, Tony | |
| Barnes, Harry | Dafis, Cynog |
| Barron, Kevin | Dalyell, Tam |
| Battle, John | Darvill, Keith |
| Bayley, Hugh | Davey, Edward (Kingston) |
| Beard, Nigel | Davidson, Ian |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Begg, Miss Anne | Davies, Geraint (Croydon C) |
| Beith, Rt Hon A J | Davies, Rt Hon Ron (Caerphilly) |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Denham, John |
| Benton, Joe | Dewar, Rt Hon Donald |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Dobbin, Jim |
| Berry, Roger | Doran, Frank |
| Best, Harold | Drew, David |
| Betts, Clive | Drown, Ms Julia |
| Blackman, Liz | Eagle, Angela (Wallasey) |
| Blears, Ms Hazel | Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston) |
| Blizzard, Bob | Efford, Clive |
| Blunkett, Rt Hon David | Ellman, Mrs Louise |
| Borrow, David | Ennis, Jeff |
| Bradley, Keith (Withington) | Ewing, Mrs Margaret |
| Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) | Fatchett, Derek |
| Bradshaw, Ben | Fearn, Ronnie |
| Brake, Tom | Fitzpatrick, Jim |
| Brand, Dr Peter | Flint, Caroline |
| Breed, Colin | Follett, Barbara |
| Brinton, Mrs Helen | Foster, Rt Hon Derek |
| Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E) | Foster, Don (Bath) |
| Brown, Russell (Dumfries) | Foster, Michael J (Worcester) |
| Browne, Desmond | Foulkes, George |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Fyfe, Maria |
| Buck, Ms Karen | Galbraith, Sam |
| Burden, Richard | Galloway, George |
| Burnett, John | Gapes, Mike |
| Burstow, Paul | Gardiner, Barry |
| Byers, Stephen | George, Andrew (St Ives) |
| Cable, Dr Vincent | Gibson, Dr Ian |
| Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth) | Gilroy, Mrs Linda |
| Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Godman, Norman A |
| Campbell, Menzies (NE Fife) | Godsiff, Roger |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Goggins, Paul |
| Campbell—Savours, Dale | Gordon, Mrs Eileen |
| Canavan, Dennis | Gorrie, Donald |
| Caplin, Ivor | Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) |
| Casale, Roger | Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) |
| Caton, Martin | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
| Cawsey, Ian | Grogan, John |
| Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) | Hain, Peter |
| Chisholm, Malcolm | Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) |
| Church, Ms Judith | Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE) |
| Clapham, Michael | Hanson, David |
| Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands) | Harris, Dr Evan |
| Harvey, Nick | |
| Clark, Paul (Gillingham) | Heal, Mrs Sylvia |
| Clarke, Charles (Norwich S) | Heath, David (Somerton & Frome) |
| Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N) |
| Clarke, Tony (Northampton S) | Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) |
| Clelland, David | Heppell, John |
| Clwyd, Ann | Hill, Keith |
| Coaker, Vernon | Hinchliffe, David |
| Coffey, Ms Ann | Hodge, Ms Margaret |
| Colman, Tony | Hoey, Kate |
| Connarty, Michael | Home Robertson, John |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Hope, Phil |
| Cooper, Yvette | Howarth, Alan (Newport E) |
| Corbett, Robin | Howarth, George (Knowsley N) |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford) |
| Corston, Ms Jean | Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) |
| Cotter, Brian | Hughes, Simon (Southwark N) |
| Cranston, Ross | Humble, Mrs Joan |
| Crausby, David | Hurst, Alan |
| Cryer, John (Hornchurch) | Hutton, John |
| Iddon, Dr Brian | Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck) |
| Illsley, Eric | Murphy, Jim (Eastwood) |
| Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead) | Norris, Dan |
| Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough) | Oaten, Mark |
| Jamieson, David | O'Brien, Bill (Normanton) |
| Jenkins, Brian | O'Brien, Mike (N Warks) |
| Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle) | Öpik, Lembit |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) | Organ, Mrs Diana |
| Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark) | Osborne, Ms Sandra |
| Jones, Helen (Warrington N) | Palmer, Dr Nick |
| Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) | Perham, Ms Linda |
| Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak) | Pickthall, Colin |
| Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) | Pike, Peter L |
| Jowell, Ms Tessa | Plaskitt, James |
| Keeble, Ms Sally | Pope, Greg |
| Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston) | Powell, Sir Raymond |
| Keetch, Paul | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E) |
| Kelly, Ms Ruth | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| Kennedy, Charles (Ross Skye) | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree) | Purchase, Ken |
| Khabra, Piara S | Quinn, Lawrie |
| Kidney, David | Radice, Giles |
| Kilfoyle, Peter | Raynsford, Nick |
| King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth) | Reed, Andrew (Loughborough) |
| King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green) | Reid, Dr John (Hamilton N) |
| Kingham, Ms Tess | Rendel, David |
| Kirkwood, Archy | Rooker, Jeff |
| Ladyman, Dr Stephen | Rooney, Terry |
| Lawrence, Ms Jackie | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Laxton, Bob | Rowlands, Ted |
| Leslie, Christopher | Roy, Frank |
| Lewis, Ivan (Bury S) | Ruane, Chris |
| Liddell, Mrs Helen | Ruddock, Ms Joan |
| Linton, Martin | Russell, Bob (Colchester) |
| Livingstone, Ken | Russell, Ms Christine (Chester) |
| Livsey, Richard | Salmond, Alex |
| Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C) | Salter, Martin |
| Llwyd, Elfyn | Sanders, Adrian |
| Love, Andrew | Savidge, Malcolm |
| McAllion, John | Sedgemore, Brian |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Shaw, Jonathan |
| McCabe, Steve | Sheerman, Barry |
| McCartney, Ian (Makerfield) | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| McDonagh, Siobhain | Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S) |
| Macdonald, Calum | Singh, Marsha |
| McDonnell, John | Skinner, Dennis |
| McFall, John | Smith, Angela (Basildon) |
| McGuire, Mrs Anne | Smith, Jacqui (Redditch) |
| McIsaac, Shona | Smith, John (Glamorgan) |
| McKenna, Mrs Rosemary | Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns) |
| McLeish, Henry | Soley, Clive |
| Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert | Southworth, Ms Helen |
| Mahon, Mrs Alice | Spellar, John |
| Mandelson, Peter | Squire, Ms Rachel |
| Marek, Dr John | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S) | Stevenson, George |
| Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury) | Stewart, David (Inverness E) |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Stewart, Ian (Eccles) |
| Martlew, Eric | Stinchcombe, Paul |
| Meacher, Rt Hon Michael | Stoate, Dr Howard |
| Meale, Alan | Stott, Roger |
| Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley) | Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute) | Stringer, Graham |
| Milburn, Alan | Stuart, Ms Gisela |
| Miller, Andrew | Stunell, Andrew |
| Mitchell, Austin | Swinney, John |
| Moonie, Dr Lewis | Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway) | |
| Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N) | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Morgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W) | Temple—Morris, Peter |
| Morley, Elliot | Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W) |
| Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley) | Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W) |
| Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) | Tipping, Paddy |
| Mountford, Kali | Tonge, Dr Jenny |
| Mudie, George | Touhig, Don |
| Mullin, Chris | Trickett, Jon |
| Truswell, Paul | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE) | |
| Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown) | Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen) |
| Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk) | Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy) |
| Twigg, Derek (Halton) | Willis, Phil |
| Twigg, Stephen (Enfield) | Wills, Michael |
| Tyler, Paul | Wilson, Brian |
| Vaz, Keith | Winnick, David |
| Wallace, James | Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C) |
| Walley, Ms Joan | Wise, Audrey |
| Ward, Ms Claire | Wood, Mike |
| Wareing, Robert N | Worthington, Tony |
| Watts, David | Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock) |
| Webb, Steve | Wyatt, Derek |
| Welsh, Andrew | |
| White, Brian | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Whitehead, Dr Alan | Mr. Robert Ainsworth and |
| Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd | Mr. Jim Dowd. |
| Division No. 143 | [10 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) |
| Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N) | Clarke, Tony (Northampton S) |
| Ainger, Nick | Clelland, David |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Clwyd, Ann |
| Alexander, Douglas | Coaker, Vernon |
| Allan, Richard | Coffey, Ms Ann |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Cohen, Harry |
| Anderson, Janet (Rossendale) | Colman, Tony |
| Armstrong, Ms Hilary | Connarty, Michael |
| Ashton, Joe | Cook, Frank (Stockton N) |
| Austin, John | Cooper, Yvette |
| Ballard, Mrs Jackie | Corbyn, Jeremy |
| Banks, Tony | Corston, Ms Jean |
| Barnes, Harry | Cotter, Brian |
| Barron, Kevin | Cranston, Ross |
| Battle, John | Crausby, David |
| Bayley, Hugh | Cryer, John (Hornchurch) |
| Beard, Nigel | Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John (Copeland) |
| Begg, Miss Anne | |
| Bell, Martin (Tatton) | Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S) |
| Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough) | Cunningham, Ms Roseanna (Perth) |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | |
| Benton, Joe | Dafis, Cynog |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Dalyell, Tarn |
| Berry, Roger | Darling, Rt Hon Alistair |
| Best, Harold | Darvill, Keith |
| Blackman, Liz | Davey, Edward (Kingston) |
| Blears, Ms Hazel | Davidson, Ian |
| Blizzard, Bob | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Boateng, Paul | Davies, Geraint (Croydon C) |
| Borrow, David | Davies, Rt Hon Ron (Caerphilly) |
| Bradley, Keith (Withington) | Dawson, Hilton |
| Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) | Denham, John |
| Bradshaw, Ben | Dewar, Rt Hon Donald |
| Brake, Tom | Dobbin, Jim |
| Brand, Dr Peter | Doran, Frank |
| Breed, Colin | Dowd, Jim |
| Brinton, Mrs Helen | Drew, David |
| Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E) | Drown, Ms Julia |
| Brown, Russell (Dumfries) | Eagle, Angela (Wallasey) |
| Browne, Desmond | Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston) |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Efford, Clive |
| Buck, Ms Karen | Ellman, Mrs Louise |
| Burden, Richard | Ennis, Jeff |
| Burgon, Colin | Ewing, Mrs Margaret |
| Burnett, John | Fatchett, Derek |
| Burstow, Paul | Fearn, Ronnie |
| Caborn, Richard | Field, Rt Hon Frank |
| Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth) | Flint, Caroline |
| Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Foster, Rt Hon Derek |
| Campbell, Menzies (NE Fife) | Foster, Don (Bath) |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Foster, Michael J (Worcester) |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Foulkes, George |
| Canavan, Dennis | Fyfe, Maria |
| Cann, Jamie | Galbraith, Sam |
| Caplin, Ivor | Galloway, George |
| Casale, Roger | Gapes, Mike |
| Caton, Martin | Gardiner, Barry |
| Cawsey, Ian | George, Andrew (St Ives) |
| Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) | George, Bruce (Walsall S) |
| Chisholm, Malcolm | Gibson, Dr Ian |
| Church, Ms Judith | Gilroy, Mrs Linda |
| Clapham, Michael | Godman, Norman A |
| Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands) | Godsiff, Roger |
| Goggins, Paul | |
| Clark, Paul (Gillingham) | Gordon, Mrs Eileen |
| Clarke, Charles (Norwich S) | Gorrie, Donald |
| Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) | Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert |
| Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | McWilliam, John |
| Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Mahon, Mrs Alice |
| Grogan, John | Mallaber, Judy |
| Hain, Peter | Mandelson, Peter |
| Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) | Marek, Dr John |
| Hall, Patrick (Bedford) | Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S) |
| Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE) | Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury) |
| Hanson, David | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Harris, Dr Evan | Martlew, Eric |
| Harvey, Nick | Meacher, Rt Hon Michael |
| Heal, Mrs Sylvia | Meale, Alan |
| Heath, David (Somerton & Frome) | Michael, Alun |
| Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N) | Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley) |
| Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) | Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute) |
| Heppell, John | Milburn, Alan |
| Hill, Keith | Miller, Andrew |
| Hinchliffe, David | Moffatt, Laura |
| Hodge, Ms Margaret | Moonie, Dr Lewis |
| Home Robertson, John | Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway) |
| Hoon, Geoffrey | Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N) |
| Hope, Phil | Morgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W) |
| Howarth, Alan (Newport E) | Morley, Elliot |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
| Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford) | Mountford, Kali |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark N) | Mudie, George |
| Humble, Mrs Joan | Mullin, Chris |
| Hurst, Alan | Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck) |
| Hutton, John | Murphy, Jim (Eastwood) |
| Iddon, Dr Brian | Norris, Dan |
| Illsley, Eric | Oaten, Mark |
| Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead) | O'Brien, Bill (Normanton) |
| Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough) | O'Brien, Mike (N Warks) |
| Jenkins, Brian | Öpik, Lembit |
| Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle) | Organ, Mrs Diana |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) | Osborne, Ms Sandra |
| Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark) | Palmer, Dr Nick |
| Jones, Helen (Warrington N) | Perham, Ms Linda |
| Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak) | Pickthall, Colin |
| Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) | Pike, Peter L |
| Jowell, Ms Tessa | Plaskitt, James |
| Keeble, Ms Sally | Pope, Greg |
| Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston) | Powell, Sir Raymond |
| Keetch, Paul | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E) |
| Kelly, Ms Ruth | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| Kennedy, Charles (Ross Skye) | Prescott, Rt Hon John |
| Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree) | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Khabra, Piara S | Purchase, Ken |
| Kidney, David | Quinn, Lawrie |
| Kilfoyle, Peter | Radice, Giles |
| King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth) | Raynsford, Nick |
| King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green) | Reed, Andrew (Loughborough) |
| Kingham, Ms Tess | Rendel, David |
| Kirkwood, Archy | Rooker, Jeff |
| Lawrence, Ms Jackie | Rooney, Terry |
| Laxton, Bob | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Leslie, Christopher | Rowlands, Ted |
| Lewis, Ivan (Bury S) | Ruane, Chris |
| Linton, Martin | Ruddock, Ms Joan |
| Livingstone, Ken | Russell, Bob (Colchester) |
| Livsey, Richard | Russell, Ms Christine (Chester) |
| Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C) | Salmond, Alex |
| Llwyd, Elfyn | Salter, Martin |
| Lock, David | Sanders, Adrian |
| Love, Andrew | Savidge, Malcolm |
| McAllion, John | Sedgemore, Brian |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Shaw, Jonathan |
| McCabe, Steve | Sheerman, Barry |
| McCartney, Ian (Makerfield) | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| McDonagh, Siobhain | Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S) |
| Macdonald, Calum | Singh, Marsha |
| McDonnell, John | Skinner, Dennis |
| McFall, John | Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S) |
| McGuire, Mrs Anne | Smith, Jacqui (Redditch) |
| McIsaac, Shona | Smith, John (Glamorgan) |
| McLeish, Henry | Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns) |
| Soley, Clive | Twigg, Stephen (Enfield) |
| Southworth, Ms Helen | Tyler, Paul |
| Spellar, John | Vaz, Keith |
| Squire, Ms Rachel | Wallace, James |
| Starkey, Dr Phyllis | Walley, Ms Joan |
| Steinberg, Gerry | Ward, Ms Claire |
| Stevenson, George | Wareing, Robert N |
| Stewart, David (Inverness E) | Watts, David |
| Stewart, Ian (Eccles) | Webb, Steve |
| Stinchcombe, Paul | Welsh, Andrew |
| Stoate, Dr Howard | White, Brian |
| Stott, Roger | Whitehead, Dr Alan |
| Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Stringer, Graham | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| Stuart, Ms Gisela | |
| Stunell, Andrew | Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen) |
| Swinney, John | Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy) |
| Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) | Willis, Phil |
| Wills, Michael | |
| Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S) | Wilson, Brian |
| Taylor, Matthew (Truro) | Winnick, David |
| Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W) | Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C) |
| Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W) | Wise, Audrey |
| Tipping, Paddy | Wood, Mike |
| Tonge, Dr Jenny | Worthington, Tony |
| Touhig, Don | Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth) |
| Trickett, Jon | Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock) |
| Truswell, Paul | Wyatt, Derek |
| Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE) | |
| Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk) | Mr. David Jamieson and |
| Twigg, Derek (Halton) | Mr. Jon Owen Jones. |
| NOES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey) | Key, Robert |
| Ancram, Rt Hon Michael | King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Arbuthnot, James | Lansley, Andrew |
| Beggs, Roy | Letwin, Oliver |
| Blunt, Crispin | Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E) |
| Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W) | Lilley, Rt Hon Peter |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia | Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham) |
| Brazier, Julian | Loughton, Tim |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Luff, Peter |
| Browning, Mrs Angela | Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas |
| Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Maclean, Rt Hon David |
| Cash, William | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Chope, Christopher | Madel, Sir David |
| Clark, Rt Hon Alan (Kensington) | Norman, Archie |
| Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice) | Ottaway, Richard |
| Day, Stephen | Paice, James |
| Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen | Paterson, Owen |
| Evans, Nigel | Prior, David |
| Fallon, Michael | Randall, John |
| Flight, Howard | Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry) |
| Fox, Dr Liam | Ross, William (E Lond'y) |
| Gale, Roger | Rowe, Andrew (Faversham) |
| Gillan, Mrs Cheryl | Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian |
| Gray, James | Soames, Nicholas |
| Green, Damian | Spelman, Mrs Caroline |
| Greenway, John | Spicer, Sir Michael |
| Grieve, Dominic | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Hawkins, Nick | Swayne, Desmond |
| Hayes, John | Syms, Robert |
| Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot) | Taylor, Sir Teddy |
| Hunter, Andrew | Thompson, William |
| Jack, Rt Hon Michael | Tredinnick, David |
| Jackson, Robert (Wantage) | Viggers, Peter |
| Walter, Robert | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| Wardle Charles | |
| Wells, Bowen | |
| Whittingdale, John | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann | Mr. Oliver Heald and |
| Wilkinson, John | Mr. Nigel Waterson. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Schedule 1 agreed to.
§ It being after Ten o'clock, THE CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order [13 January] and the Resolution this day, to put forthwith the Questions to be decided at that hour.