§ Sir Brian MawhinneyI beg to move amendment No. 16, in page 4, line 22, at end add—
'(3) An order under subsection (1) shall not be made unless a draft thereof has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.'.
The Second Deputy ChairmanWith this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 53, in page 4, line 22, at end add—
591 No. 70, in page 4, line 22, at end add—
- '(3) No order shall be made under subsection (1) above unless such an enactment as is mentioned in section 3(8)(a) of the European Parliamentary Elections Act 1978 for the registering of political parties has come into effect which—
- (a) takes account of any relevant report from the non—statutory Committee on Standards in Public Life; and
- (b) requires the democratic approval at regional level of party lists and of the order in which names appear on such lists by members of the registered party concerned.'.
- '(3) No Order shall be made under subsection (1) above unless—
- (a) a draft Order under section 2(6)(c) of the European Parliamentary Elections Act 1978 has been approved by resolution of each House of Parliament; and
- (b) the report of the non—statutory Independent Commission on the Voting System, established on 1st December 1997, has been published.'.
§ Sir Brian MawhinneyBefore dealing with the amendments, I must inform the hon. Lady that we shall not reach tonight the selection of amendments made by the Chair concerning election expenses. As a courtesy, I must inform her that, when we consider those amendments next Thursday, we should be grateful to hear from her or the Home Secretary at the beginning of the debate regarding the Government's reaction to the Bowman decision recently announced by the European Court of Human Rights. That decision is absolutely central to the discussion that we shall have about election expenses. I hope that that will help the hon. Lady.
First, the amendments represent our concern that several activities running parallel to our consideration of the Bill should conclude and that the House should have time to debate and consider those conclusions before a commencement order is put in place with respect to this legislation. We have already agreed that the Bill represents a fundamental change. I agree very much with the point made earlier by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) that Parliament, and not the Government, should make a judgment about the commencement of the electoral process.
Secondly, this is a complicated process. We shall be focusing on new and extensive training measures that must be put in place for handling the legislation. We believe that the Government should report back to Parliament when those measures are in place and that both Houses of Parliament should decide on the commencement.
In addition, the Committee on Standards in Public Life is undertaking a review. The Government have also established an inquiry under Lord Jenkins of Hillhead as part of the secret Lib-Lab deal to change out of all recognition the constitution of this country. If anyone doubted that the inquiry was part of the Lib-Lab deal, the choice of Lord Jenkins to chair it would have laid those doubts to rest. It would be hard to find a former Member of this place—now a member of the other place—who had a more flexible constitutional interpretation at the heart of his political career than Lord Jenkins.
§ Mr. BeithI must point out to the right hon. Gentleman that the deal was not in the least secret; it was public from the day that it was concluded.
§ Sir Brian MawhinneyOh no. What was public from the day that it was concluded was that there was a deal. The terms of the deal are slowly coming to light, and the more we see of them, the less we like them.
The third element of the amendments relates to our belief that there should be democratic accountability within the parties at a regional level before the election 592 can proceed. As has been made clear, the Conservative party will choose its regional candidates democratically, as will the Liberal Democrats, but the Labour party will not. I am grateful to someone, who will remain un-named, for letting me have a copy of the Campaign for Labour Party Democracy's response to the Labour party's consultation paper on European parliamentary selections. It is absolutely relevant to the amendment before us, because it makes clear the opposition of many Labour party members to the fact that, although local members will be able to select one man and one woman, party apparatchiks will determine the candidates. That is typical of new Labour: new Labour, new control.
I tabled the amendments to ensure that voters throughout the country can have confidence in the democratic nature of the selection of candidates in all the parties. I commend them to the Committee.
§ Mr. HoggI entirely agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Cambridgeshire (Sir B. Mawhinney). One of the most objectionable features—there are many—of the Bill is that it potentially gives control over the selection of candidates to the central institutions of the party. The Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats are not falling victim to the temptation to do that, but the Labour party is. It is reserving to the central institutions of the Labour party the power to adopt and re-adopt candidates. That is profoundly undemocratic. The advantage of my right hon. Friend's amendment is that it enables the Committee to consider the desirability of putting into commencement the Bill. It may sound improbable, but the Labour party will repent of its folly. At least it should be given the opportunity to do so. That is the great charm of my right hon. Friend's amendment.
§ Ms QuinAmendment No. 16 would require both Houses of Parliament to affirm that legislation, which both would have passed, should come into force. If either House is not content with the provisions in the Bill, it can refuse to approve and enact them.
I accept that there are precedents, although they are few, for the affirmative resolution procedure to be used to bring Acts, or parts of Acts, into force. That procedure is usually reserved for situations where the commencement of the provision is contingent on some other event and Parliament needs to be satisfied that the contingent event had taken place.
There are no contingent events relating to the Bill that would justify the use of the affirmative resolution procedure for commencement and transitional procedure orders.
Amendment No. 53 would prevent the Secretary of State from bringing into force the provisions of the Bill until Lord Neill' s Committee on Standards in Public Life has produced a report. That Committee is not looking at issues relating to elections to the European Parliament; its main concern at the moment, as we know, is party funding. The Bill allows the Secretary of State to make regulations that would include regulations to limit the national expenditure of political parties in relation to European elections.
That is necessary because, with the elections proposed for the European Parliament, candidates would campaign not on their behalf but on behalf of their parties and the 593 party list on which they are represented. It is therefore necessary to provide for expenditure limits on parties as well as on independent candidates. Those regulations could take account of any recommendations that Lord Neill's committee might make in relation to the national expenditure of political parties during elections.
Amendment No. 53 would also impose a condition on political parties requiring democratic approval at regional level of the party lists and the order in which names appear on such lists. Although, on several occasions during our debates, we have welcomed the Conservative party's conversion to party democracy, it is not for the Government to interfere in political parties' internal affairs.
It was interesting that, during our debate on Tuesday, a Conservative Member complained bitterly about his party's approach to organising the European elections and said that it would disadvantage his party. He referred to the meetings arrangements for which the Conservative party was responsible. However, each party must decide for itself how, within the limits of its constitution, it selects candidates for public office. However, the electorate will take account of how parties determine their lists when they vote.
Amendment No. 70 introduces two further conditions before the Secretary of State can bring into force the provisions of the Bill. The first relates to a report of the boundary commission. However, as we discussed on Tuesday, there is simply no need to involve the boundary commissions in the dividing of the country into established regions—the Conservative party is familiar with those, as it established them—which can be adopted with little amendment. The amendment is therefore simply a delaying tactic on behalf of the Conservative party. Why else would the Secretary of State have to wait a further four months after the boundary commissions complete their task before making the relevant order giving effect to their work?
The Opposition now want us to wait for the outcome of the independent commission on voting reform for this Parliament as well, before we introduce the new system for the European elections. We have always made it clear that there should be different systems of elections for different public bodies, and that each electoral system should be appropriate to the body concerned. As has been said many times, unlike this Parliament, the European Parliament does not determine a Government, so the issues that we need to consider are different from those of the Westminster Parliament.
The Government considered this issue carefully in bringing before the House a system based on regional lists, so I ask the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw the amendment.
§ Sir Brian MawhinneyWe shall not withdraw the amendment. The contingent event to which the Minister refers is the complicated nature of this Bill. The electorate will have confidence in a centralised regional list system only if they can be sure that the people have been chosen democratically. For that reason, we shall press the amendment to a vote.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 93, Noes 215.
595| Division No. 185] | [9.58 pm |
| AYES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey) | Lansley, Andrew |
| Amess, David | Leigh, Edward |
| Arbuthnot, James | Letwin, Oliver |
| Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E) | Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E) |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Lilley, Rt Hon Peter |
| Bercow, John | Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham) |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Loughton, Tim |
| Boswell, Tim | McIntosh, Miss Anne |
| Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W) | Maclean, Rt Hon David |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Major, Rt Hon John |
| Browning, Mrs Angela | Malins, Humfrey |
| Butterfill, John | Maples, John |
| Cash, William | Mates, Michael |
| Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet) | Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian |
| May, Mrs Theresa | |
| Clappison, James | Moss, Malcolm |
| Clark, Rt Hon Alan (Kensington) | Norman, Archie |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh) | Page, Richard |
| Collins, Tim | Prior, David |
| Davies, Quentin (Grantham) | Redwood, Rt Hon John |
| Day, Stephen | Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry) |
| Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen | Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) |
| Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter | St Aubyn, Nick |
| Faber, David | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Fabricant, Michael | Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian |
| Fallon, Michael | Shepherd, Richard |
| Flight, Howard | Spring, Richard |
| Forth, Rt Hon Eric | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman | Streeter, Gary |
| Fraser, Christopher | Swayne, Desmond |
| Gale, Roger | Syms, Robert |
| Gibb, Nick | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Gillan, Mrs Cheryl | Taylor, John M (Solihull) |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Taylor, Sir Teddy |
| Green, Damian | Trend, Michael |
| Greenway, John | Tyrie, Andrew |
| Grieve, Dominic | Walter, Robert |
| Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie | Wardle, Charles |
| Hammond, Philip | Whitney, Sir Raymond |
| Hawkins, Nick | Whittingdale, John |
| Hayes, John | Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann |
| Heald, Oliver | Wilkinson, John |
| Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas | Woodward, Shaun |
| Horam, John | Yeo, Tim |
| Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot) | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| Jack, Rt Hon Michael | |
| Jenkin, Bernard | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater) | Mr. James Cran and |
| Laing, Mrs Eleanor | Mr. Nigel Waterson. |
| NOES | |
| Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N) | Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Bradshaw, Ben |
| Alexander, Douglas | Brinton, Mrs Helen |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E) |
| Atkins, Charlotte | Browne, Desmond |
| Austin, John | Buck, Ms Karen |
| Baker, Norman | Burden, Richard |
| Ballard, Mrs Jackie | Burnett, John |
| Banks, Tony | Burstow, Paul |
| Barnes, Harry | Butler, Mrs Christine |
| Bayley, Hugh | Byers, Stephen |
| Beard, Nigel | Campbell, Menzies (NE Fife) |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret | Caplin, Ivor |
| Berth, Rt Hon A J | Cawsey, Ian |
| Bennett, Andrew F | Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Chaytor, David |
| Betts, Clive | Chisholm, Malcolm |
| Blizzard, Bob | Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands) |
| Boateng, Paul | |
| Borrow, David | Clark, Paul (Gillingham) |
| Bradley, Keith (Withington) | Clarke, Charles (Norwich S) |
| Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Hope, Phil |
| Clarke, Tony (Northampton S) | Hopkins, Kelvin |
| Coaker, Vernon | Howarth, Alan (Newport E) |
| Coleman, Iain | Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford) |
| Colman, Tony | Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) |
| Connarty, Michael | Hurst, Alan |
| Cooper, Yvette | Jenkins, Brian |
| Corston, Ms Jean | Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield) |
| Cranston, Ross | |
| Cryer, John (Hornchurch) | Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) |
| Darling, Rt Hon Alistair | Jones, Ms Jenny (Wolverh'ton SW) |
| Darvill, Keith | |
| Davey, Valerie (Bristol W) | Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak) |
| Davidson, Ian | Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H) | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Dawson, Hilton | Keeble, Ms Sally |
| Dean, Mrs Janet | Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston) |
| Doran, Frank | Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth) |
| Dowd, Jim | Kelly, Ms Ruth |
| Drew, David | Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree) |
| Drown, Ms Julia | Ladyman, Dr Stephen |
| Eagle, Maria (L'pool Ganston) | Laxton, Bob |
| Efford, Clive | Lepper, David |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret | Lewis, Terry (Worsley) |
| Fatchett, Derek | Linton, Martin |
| Field, Rt Hon Frank | Livingstone, Ken |
| Flint, Caroline | Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C) |
| Follett, Barbara | Love, Andrew |
| Foster, Don (Bath) | McAllion, John |
| Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings) | McAvoy, Thomas |
| Fyfe, Maria | McCabe, Steve |
| Galloway, George | McCartney, Ian (Makerfield) |
| Gapes, Mike | McDonnell, John |
| Gardiner, Barry | McGuire, Mrs Anne |
| Gerrard, Neil | McKenna, Mrs Rosemary |
| Gilroy, Mrs Linda | Mackinlay, Andrew |
| Godsiff, Roger | McNamara, Kevin |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | McNulty, Tony |
| Gordon, Mrs Eileen | MacShane, Denis |
| Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Mactaggart, Fiona |
| Grogan, John | McWalter, Tony |
| Hain, Peter | Mallaber, Judy |
| Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) | Mandelson, Peter |
| Hanson, David | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Harvey, Nick | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Heath, David (Somerton & Frome) | Marshall—Andrews, Robert |
| Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) | Maxton, John |
| Hepburn, Stephen | Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley) |
| Heppell, John | Miller, Andrew |
| Hewitt, Ms Patricia | Mitchell, Austin |
| Hill, Keith | Moran, Ms Margaret |
| Hinchliffe, David | Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N) |
| Hodge, Ms Margaret | Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) |
| Home Robertson, John | Mowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie |
| Mudie, George | Soley, Clive |
| Murphy, Jim (Eastwood) | Southworth, Ms Helen |
| O'Hara, Eddie | Squire, Ms Rachel |
| Olner, Bill | Stevenson, George |
| O'Neill, Martin | Stewart, David (Inverness E) |
| Osborne, Ms Sandra | Stinchcombe, Paul |
| Pearson, Ian | Stoate, Dr Howard |
| Pickthall, Colin | Stuart, Ms Gisela |
| Plaskitt, James | Sutcliffe, Gerry |
| Pollard, Kerry | Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbuty) |
| Pond, Chris | |
| Pope, Greg | Taylor, David (NW Leics) |
| Pound, Stephen | Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W) |
| Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E) | Timms, Stephen |
| Prosser, Gwyn | Tipping, Paddy |
| Quin, Ms Joyce | Touhig, Don |
| Raynsford, Nick | Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown) |
| Reed, Andrew (Loughborough) | Twigg, Stephen (Enfield) |
| Robertson, Rt Hon George (Hamilton S) | Tyler, Paul |
| Vaz, Keith | |
| Rooker, Jeff | Vis, Dr Rudi |
| Roy, Frank | Ward, Ms Claire |
| Ruddock, Ms Joan | Wareing, Robert N |
| Ryan, Ms Joan | White, Brian |
| Sanders, Adrian | Whitehead, Dr Alan |
| Savidge, Malcolm | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Sawford, Phil | Wills, Michael |
| Sedgemore, Brian | Wilson, Brian |
| Shaw, Jonathan | Winnick, David |
| Shipley, Ms Debra | Wood, Mike |
| Short, Rt Hon Clare | Woolas, Phil |
| Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S) | Wray, James |
| Skinner, Dennis | Wyatt, Derek |
| Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E) | |
| Smith, Angela (Basildon) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Smith, Jacqui (Redditch) | Janet Anderson and |
| Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) | Mr. David Jamieson. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ It being after Ten o'clock, THE CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report progress and ask leave to sit again.
§ To report progress and ask leave to sit again.—[Jane Kennedy.]
§ Committee report progress; to sit again tomorrow.