§ Mrs. MaddockI beg to move amendment No. 6, in page 93, line 27, at end insert—
'(e) any young person aged 16 or 17'.
§ Madam Deputy SpeakerWith this, it will be convenient to discuss also amendment No. 7, in page 93, line 27, at end insert—
'(e) a person who qualifies for advice and assistance under section 24(2) of the Children Act 1989 or who is taken to be in need under section 17(10) of that Act.'.
§ Mrs. MaddockThese amendments are about giving priority need to young people and to children.
Amendment No. 6 says that 16 and 17-year-olds should be classed as priority need when they seek advice from local government.
Amendment No. 7 is supported by many children's societies, including Barnardo's. In the past two days, I have received a letter from Centre Point, which is very anxious about this amendment, the purpose of which is to ensure that young people leaving care, or those assessed as being in priority need under the Children Act 1989, are regarded as having priority for homeless assistance. The amendment is supported by Barnardo's, the Children's Society, NCH Action for Children, Family Service Units, the St. Christopher Fellowship, the Catholic Children's Society, and Save the Children.
Centre Point has pointed out that, during 1994–95, despite the Children Act, 38 per cent, of homeless young people seen by Centre Point were 17 years old or younger, and that 86 per cent, of them had been forced to leave home. 1035 [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish!"] I am hearing sedentary interventions that say that this is rubbish. That is precisely the attitude that causes young people to be scapegoated.
In my area, before Christmas, when a charity made an appeal to help young homeless people and give them places in a hostel where they would get help to continue their education and do their job, it received hate mail. We have heard from some hon. Members tonight who think that, if young people are homeless, it is their own fault, or that they wished to leave their family. I suggest that those hon. Members go to a hostel, as I did, and speak to them. Are hon. Members saying that Centre Point—a charity that I thought we all recognised does good work—is wrong? I can supply them with the excellent documentation that it has provided.
We are asking that the Minister amends the Bill to ensure that legislation works together, and that the Children Act means something. There is evidence throughout the country that the Housing Act and the Children Act do not work together properly. This is our opportunity. The amendment has the support of many hon. Members in the House, and of all the groups I mentioned.
I hope that the Minister will take the amendment on board. It is sensible and simple; all he has to do is accept it on behalf of all young people who need help to mount the ladder of life rather than being pushed off the bottom rung.
§ Mr. CurryI would be sorry if the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mrs. Maddock) pressed the amendment to a vote, thereby encapsulating a difference of view that I do not think exists in practice.
The choice is between a statutory entitlement and finding a more integrated approach to tackling a problem that I fully recognise. My own dealings with the rough sleepers initiative have shown me how difficult life can be for some young people. I know that, even in my rural constituency, youngsters, particularly those going from a background of care into foyer projects, need considerable support to give them the confidence—if nothing else—to cope with life.
The question does not really relate to the concerns involved; it relates to whether one route is better than the other. We need a comprehensive approach. For example, young people under 18 cannot hold a legal estate in land, so there are practical problems in giving them tenancies. There is some doubt about whether they can live by themselves, unsupported, at that age. Entitlement under the homelessness legislation does exist for that group: under clause 163, anyone who is vulnerable has priority need. We do, however, need to consider carefully what can be done to give young people better access to permanent social housing.
The proposals on referrals would allow local housing authorities to make accommodation available to young people referred to them by an appropriate welfare agency, where there is enough support, without having to compete with others on the housing register. In the light of the consultations on regulations, I am seriously considering the possibility of requiring a local authority to give an entitlement to register to anyone over the age of 18 who has 1036 been living in the area for a specified period. Anyone in that group to whom a reasonable preference should be afforded under the allocation criteria could expect to receive serious consideration for social housing under the register.
The homelessness code of guidance was written before the Children Act came into effect. It needs updating in the light of experience gained from its operation, and to link with the new provisions in the Bill. I shall use the opportunity to make clear the real need for the different services to work together to meet young people's needs, and to suggest how that may be done. We need the co-operation of the Department of Health, which has the main responsibility for the Children Act.
I believe that that integrated approach is right. If, while we are preparing the package, it becomes apparent that the current legislation is inadequate, or is being intepreted too restrictively by some housing authorities, I shall be prepared to use the order-making power to ensure that the legislation takes proper account of the needs of vulnerable young people. I think that that is the right way forward.
I do not want to have to advise the House to reject the amendment, because that would suggest the existence of a divide between us, which, in practical terms, does not exist.
§ Mr. Simon HughesWill the Minister do one more thing? He must try to persuade some of his Back Benchers that young people leaving home are not leaving some luxury accommodation where all is happiness and light and everyone gets on swimmingly in order to move, at public expense, to equally luxurious accommodation where they can be on their own.
The Minister knows from his experience, as I know from mine, that most young people who leave home end up in a much more precarious position. The accommodation with which they may be provided, under statutory instrument or other legislation, is normally hostel accommodation. It is by nature temporary, and involves living with other people. It is not ideal; it is not long-term. We must get away from the idea that this is a jolly good thing which young people use to exploit the system.
The Minister's experience, like mine, will tell him that we risk seeing more and more young people, for whatever reason, leaving home and becoming the sort of people with whom the rough sleepers initiative must deal. All the centres I visited in the winter told me that more young people were turning up than in previous years. The state is not suddenly giving young people independence and a life of luxury. If we can make that message understood, we can start to respond in a way that ensures that, whatever the law says, we treat youngsters as a priority. If we can make them secure when they are young, they are far more likely to become secure adults who bring up secure families in secure homes.
§ Mr. CurryThat is one reason why the winter shelter programme will be extended next year to provide up to 450 beds—with, of course, specialist provision for those in particular need.
§ Mrs. MaddockI know that the Minister takes the matter very seriously, and I hear what he says. If hon. Members who have been dismissive look at the figures, they will see that the majority of young people who have presented themselves as homeless left their families because they had been abused—often physically, and 1037 often sexually. The issue is incredibly important. The Minister has made a very good case for amendment No. 7, and I shall press it to a vote.
§ Amendment negatived.
§
Amendment proposed: No. 7, in page 93, line 27, at end insert:
'(e) a person who qualifies for advice and assistance under section 24(2) of the Children Act 1989 or who is taken to be in need under section 17(10) of that Act.'.—[Mrs. Maddock.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 252, Noes 291.
1040| Division No. 117] | [10.37pm |
| AYES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Darling, Alistair |
| Adams, Mrs Irene | Davidson, Ian |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'tryNE) | Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral) |
| Allen, Graham | Davies, Chris (L'Boro & S'worth) |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) |
| Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy | Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l) |
| Ashton, Joe | Denham, John |
| Austin-Walker, John | Dewar, Donald |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Dixon, Don |
| Barron, Kevin | Dobson, Frank |
| Battle, John | Dowd, Jim |
| Bayley, Hugh | Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Eagle, Ms Angela |
| Beith, Rt Hon A J | Eastham, Ken |
| Bell, Stuart | Etherington, Bill |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Evans, John (St Helens N) |
| Bennett, Andrew F | Ewing, Mrs Margaret |
| Benton, Joe | Fatchett, Derek |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Berry, Roger | Foster, Rt Hon Derek |
| Betts, Clive | Foster, Don (Bath) |
| Blunkett, David | Foulkes, George |
| Boateng, Paul | Fyfe, Maria |
| Bradley, Keith | Galbraith, Sam |
| Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) | Galloway, George |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Gapes, Mike |
| Burden, Richard | George, Bruce |
| Byers, Stephen | Gerrard, Neil |
| Caborn, Richard | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Callaghan, Jim | Godsiff, Roger |
| Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Gordon, Mildred |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Graham, Thomas |
| Cann, Jamie | Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) |
| Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery) | Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) |
| Chidgey, David | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
| Chisholm, Malcolm | Grocott, Bruce |
| Church, Judith | Gunnell, John |
| Clapham, Michael | Hain, Peter |
| Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Hall, Mike |
| Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Hanson, David |
| Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Hardy, Peter |
| Clelland, David | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Harvey, Nick |
| Coffey, Ann | Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy |
| Cohen, Harry | Henderson, Doug |
| Connarty, Michael | Heppell, John |
| Corbett, Robin | Hill, Keith (Streatham) |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Hinchliffe, David |
| Corston, Jean | Hodge, Margaret |
| Cousins, Jim | Hoey, Kate |
| Cox, Tom | Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Hoon, Geoffrey |
| Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) | Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) |
| Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John | Howarth, George (Knowsley North) |
| Cunningham, Roseanna | Howells, Dr Kim (Pontypridd) |
| Dafis, Cynog | Hoyle, Doug |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | O'Brien, Mike (N W'kshire) |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport E) | O'Brien, William (Normanton) |
| Hutton, John | O'Hara, Edward |
| Illsley, Eric | Olner, Bill |
| Ingram, Adam | Pearson, Ian |
| Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) | Pendry, Tom |
| Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) | Pickthall, Colin |
| Jamieson, David | Pike, Peter L |
| Jenkins, Brian (SE Staff) | Pope, Greg |
| Johnston, Sir Russell | Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E) |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| Jones, leuan Wyn (Ynys Môn) | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) | Purchase, Ken |
| Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) | Radice, Giles |
| Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) | Randall, Stuart |
| Jowell, Tessa | Raynsford, Nick |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Reid, Dr John |
| Keen, Alan | Rendel, David |
| Kennedy, Charles (Ross, C&S) | Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW) |
| Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n) | Roche, Mrs Barbara |
| Khabra, Piara S | Rogers, Allan |
| Kilfoyle, Peter | Rooker, Jeff |
| Lestor, Joan (Eccles) | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Lewis, Terry | Rowlands, Ted |
| Liddell, Mrs Helen | Ruddock, Joan |
| Livingstone, Ken | Salmond, Alex |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Llwyd, Elfyn | Sheerman, Barry |
| Loyden, Eddie | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Lynne, Ms Liz | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| McAllion, John | Short, Clare |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Simpson, Alan |
| McCartney, Ian | Skinner, Dennis |
| McCartney, Robert | Smith, Chris (Isl'on S & F'sbury) |
| McFall, John | Smith, LIew (Blaenau Gwent) |
| McGrady, Eddie | Soley, Clive |
| McKelvey, William | Spellar, John |
| Mackinlay, Andrew | Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) |
| McLeish, Henry | Steel, Rt Hon Sir David |
| Maclennan, Robert | Steinberg, Gerry |
| McMaster, Gordon | Straw, Jack |
| MacShane, Denis | Sutcliffe, Gerry |
| Maddock, Diana | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Mahon, Alice | Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck) |
| Mandelson, Peter | Timms, Stephen |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Tipping, Paddy |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) | Touhig, Don |
| Martin, Michael J (Springburn) | Trickett, Jon |
| Martlew, Eric | Turner, Dennis |
| Maxton, John | Tyler, Paul |
| Meacher, Michael | Vaz, Keith |
| Meale, Alan | Wallace, James |
| Michael, Alun | Walley, Joan |
| Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) | Warden, Gareth (Gower) |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute) | Wareing, Robert N |
| Milburn, Alan | Watson, Mike |
| Miller, Andrew | Welsh, Andrew |
| Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Moonie, Dr Lewis | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Morgan, Rhodri | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) |
| Morley, Elliot | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
| Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) | Worthington, Tony |
| Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) | Wray, Jimmy |
| Mowlam, Marjorie | Wright, Dr Tony |
| Mudie, George | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Mullin, Chris | |
| Murphy, Paul | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Mr. Archy Kirkwood and |
| Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | Mr. Simon Hughes. |
| NOES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Allason, Rupert (Torbay) |
| Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan | Amess, David |
| Alexander, Richard | Ancram, Rt Hon Michael |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Arbuthnot, James |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Evans, Roger (Monmouth) |
| Ashby, David | Evennett, David |
| Atkins, Rt Hon Robert | Faber, David |
| Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) | Fabricant, Michael |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
| Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V) | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) | Fishburn, Dudley |
| Baldry, Tony | Forman, Nigel |
| Banks, Matthew (Southport) | Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling) |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim) |
| Batiste, Spencer | Forth, Eric |
| Beggs, Roy | Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman |
| Bendall, Vivian | Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Fox, Rt Hon Sir Marcus (Shipley) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Freeman, Rt Hon Roger |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | French, Douglas |
| Booth, Hartley | Fry, Sir Peter |
| Boswell, Tim | Gale, Roger |
| Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Gallie, Phil |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia | Gardiner, Sir George |
| Bowden, Sir Andrew | Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan |
| Bowis, John | Garnier, Edward |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Gill, Christopher |
| Brandreth, Gyles | Gillan, Cheryl |
| Brazier, Julian | Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair |
| Bright, Sir Graham | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) | Gorman, Mrs Teresa |
| Browning, Mrs Angela | Gorst, Sir John |
| Burns, Simon | Grant, Sir A (SW Cambs) |
| Burt, Alistair | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
| Butcher, John | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Butler, Peter | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) |
| Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Grylls, Sir Michael |
| Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln) | Gummer, Rt Hon jonn selwyn |
| Carrington, Matthew | Hague, Rt Hon William |
| Carttiss, Michael | Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Chapman, Sir Sydney | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Churchill, Mr | Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy |
| Clappison, James | Hannam, Sir John |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Hargreaves, Andrew |
| Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif) | Haselhurst, Sir Alan |
| Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Hawkins, Nick |
| Coe, Sebastian | Hawksley, Warren |
| Congdon, David | Heald, Oliver |
| Conway, Derek | Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) | Hendry, Charles |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Cope, Rt Hon Sir John | Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence |
| Couchman, James | Hill, James (Southampton Test) |
| Cran, James | Horam, John |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) | Hordem, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) | Howard, Rt Hon Michael |
| Davies, Quentin (Stamford) | Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) |
| Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk) | |
| Davis, David (Boothferry) | Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W) |
| Day, Stephen | Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) |
| Deva, Nirj Joseph | Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) |
| Devlin, Tim | Hunter, Andrew |
| Dicks, Terry | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Jack, Michael |
| Dover, Den | Jackson, Robert (Wantage) |
| Jessel Toby | |
| Duncan, Alan | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Duncan Smith, Iain | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Dunn, Bob | Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr) |
| Durant, Sir Anthony | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Elletson, Harold | Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine |
| Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Key, Robert |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) | Knapman, Roger |
| Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) | Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) |
| Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N) |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) | Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) |
| Knox, Sir David | Ross, William (E Londonderry) |
| Kynoch, George (Kincardine) | Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) |
| Lait, Mrs Jacqui | Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela |
| Lamont, Rt Hon Norman | Ryder, Rt Hon Richard |
| Lang, Rt Hon Ian | Sackville, Tom |
| Lawrence, Sir Ivan | Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy |
| Legg, Barry | Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas |
| Leigh, Edward | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark | Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian |
| Lester, Sir James (Broxtowe) | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
| Lidington, David | Shersby, Sir Michael |
| Lilley, Rt Hon Peter | Sims, Roger |
| Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham) | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Lord, Michael | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
| Luff, Peter | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas | Soames, Nicholas |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Speed, Sir Keith |
| MacKay, Andrew | Spencer, Sir Derek |
| Maclean, Rt Hon David | Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset) |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs) |
| McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick | Spink, Dr Robert |
| Madel, Sir David | Spring, Richard |
| Maitland, Lady Olga | Sproat, Iain |
| Major, Rt Hon John | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
| Malone, Gerald | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Mans, Keith | Stephen, Michael |
| Marland, Paul | Stern, Michael |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Stewart, Allan |
| Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) | Sweeney, Walter |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian | Taylor, Ian (Esher) |
| Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick | Taylor, John M (Solihull) |
| Mellor, Rt Hon David | Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) |
| Merchant, Piers | Thomason, Roy |
| Mills, Iain | Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V) |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Moate, Sir Roger | Thornton, Sir Malcolm |
| Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James | Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th) |
| Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector | Tracey, Richard |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Tredinnick, David |
| Moss, Malcolm | Trend, Michael |
| Needham, Rt Hon Richard | Trotter, Neville |
| Neubert, Sir Michael | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Viggers, Peter |
| Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Waldegrave, Rt Hon William |
| Norris, Steve | Walden, George |
| Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley | Walker, A Cecil (Belfast N) |
| Oppenheim, Phillip | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
| Ottaway, Richard | Waller, Gary |
| Page, Richard | Ward, John |
| Paice, James | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Patnick, Sir Irvine | Waterson, Nigel |
| Patten, Rt Hon John | Watts, John |
| Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Wells, Bowen |
| Pawsey, James | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Whitney, Ray |
| Pickles, Eric | Whittingdale, John |
| Porter, David (Waveney) | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Portillo, Rt Hon Michael | Wiggin, Sir Jerry |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Wilkinson, John |
| Rathbone, Tim | Willetts, David |
| Redwood, Rt Hon John | Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld) |
| Renton, Rt Hon Tim | Wolfson, Mark |
| Richards, Rod | Wood, Timothy |
| Riddick, Graham | Yeo, Tim |
| Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| Robathan, Andrew | |
| Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) | Mr. Michael Bates and |
| Robinson, Mark (Somerton) | Mr. Gary Streeter. |
§ Question accordingly negativated.