Northern Ireland Affairs

HC Deb 29 March 1994 vol 240 cc853-95

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes)

Madam Speaker has decided that all the amendments on the Order Paper are selected for debate but that any that are to be moved will be moved formally at the conclusion of the debate.

7.2 pm

Sir Fergus Montgomery (Altrincham and Sale)

I beg to move, That Mr. James Cran, Mr. Charles Hendry, Mr. Andrew Hunter, Sir James Kilfedder, Mr. Eddie McGrady, Mr. Ken Maginnis, Mr. Jim Marshall, Mr. Peter Robinson, Mr. Clive Soley, Mr. Richard Spring, Mr. John D. Taylor, Mr. David Wilshire and Mr. Mark Wolfson be members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. I should like to pay tribute to the hon. Members who serve on the Committee of Selection. We may disagree from time to time, and we often have to debate issues, but we never descend into matters of personality, and we always maintain a sense of humour. I believe, indeed. that most members of the Committee would agree that it is a pleasant one on which to serve.

The setting up of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee was always going to be a difficult matter. I do not think that any hon. Member in any part of the House would disagree with that assertion. I realise that it was impossible to accede to the requests of all the political parties involved. The minority parties are normally entitled to one place on departmental Select Committees, but there are exceptions. On the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs a Scottish nationalist Member takes one of the Labour party's places, and on the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs Plaid Cymru does likewise. The situation in Northern Ireland is different, and it is very complex. Northern Ireland has 17 constituencies. The seats are held by Members from four different political parties, none of the three major political parties on the mainland being represented. Herein lies the crux of the problem.

The unique character of Northern Ireland's parliamentary representation meant that the usual formula would have to be adapted. The Committee of Selection took into account the views of the Committee on Procedure, which had looked at the issue twice in recent years. In its 1990 report on the working of the Select Committee system, the Procedure Committee envisaged that a future Northern Ireland Select Committee would consist of 16 members, and the suggested break-down was eight Conservatives, three Labour members, two Ulster Unionist representatives, one Democratic Unionist, one Popular Unionist, and one representative of the Social Democratic and Labour party. This was revised by the Procedure Committee in December last year, when a membership of 13 or 15, which the Committee thought would be procedurally acceptable, was suggested. It was also observed—and this is a very important point—that it seemed sensible that all Northern Ireland political parties represented in the House should be represented on the Committee.

It has always been the case that the Government of the day can expect to have a majority on Committees of the House. That is not in dispute. On 9 March 1994, the House, by 324 votes to 221, approved the setting up of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee and decided that it should consist of 13 members. The Committee of Selection was then faced with the task of setting up a Committee that would give all Northern Ireland parties representation, would accommodate the Opposition and would guarantee a Government majority—not an easy task. The difficulties involved in meeting all these criteria must be readily apparent to all hon. Members.

Mr. Don Dixon (Jarrow)

If the Government wanted to have a majority on the Northern Ireland Select Committee, as they have on the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs and every departmental Select Committee, they could have implemented the Procedure Committee's recommendation that there should be seven Government members, two Labour members and one from each of the political parties in Northern Ireland. That would have been the simplest way of dealing with the matter. Why did the Procedure Committee decide that the Select Committee should have 13 members rather than 16, with the Labour party's representation reduced by one but the Ulster Unionists' representation remaining at two?

Sir Fergus Montgomery

I shall, in fairness, deal with those points in due course. The hon. Gentleman's basic point is that the Labour party should have three seats rather than two.

The composition that we decided recognises closely the Procedure Committee's original proposal, which was that the membership should consist of six Conservatives, two Labour representatives, two Ulster Unionists, one Democratic Unionist, one Popular Unionist and one SDLP representative. In 1990, the Procedure Committee recommended a Committee of 16. On that basis, the Conservatives have lost two places, having come down from eight to six, and the Labour party has lost one seat, having come down from three to two.

To ensure full participation by all the Northern Ireland parties, the Government were prepared to allow their majority to be maintained by the hon. Member for North Down (Sir J. Kilfedder). Although there is no formal link between the Popular Unionist party and the Conservative party—the hon. Member for North Down certainly does not take the Conservative whip—the hon. Gentleman is a consistent supporter of the Government in the Division Lobbies. I suggest, in fairness, that if the boot had been on the other foot—if there had been a Labour Government and a Labour Chairman of the Committee of Selection—the Labour party would probably have taken six seats and that one seat would have gone to the SDLP, which, while it does not take the Labour whip, has a link with the Labour party and agrees with it in respect of many things. I believe that the Labour party would indeed have relied on the SDLP for its majority. It goes without saying that there can be no guarantee that the hon. Member for North Down, or, for that matter, any other hon. Member, will always support the Conservative side of the Committee.

In reply to the other point that the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon) put to me, I have to say that we considered it right that the Ulster Unionists should have two places on the Committee. After all, it has more than twice as many seats as any other Northern Ireland party, and it has just over half of the Northern Ireland seats in the House. This is a Northern Ireland Committee, and it would be nonsensical to fill it with members from the mainland. The whole purpose of setting it up is to bring Northern Ireland Members together to discuss issues that are of concern to their constituents. Surely it is logical and reasonable for the Ulster Unionists to expect greater representation than the other Northern Ireland parties.

Mr. Dixon

How, then, does the hon. Gentleman justify the fact that the Government have a majority on the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs even though there are very few Scottish Conservative Members and a majority on the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs even though there are very few Welsh Conservative Members?

Sir Fergus Montgomery

The hon. Member has been in the House a long time and knows as well as I do that the Government have a majority. I do not know whether he was a Member of Parliament between 1974 and 1979, when the Labour Government lost their majority in the House. The then Opposition—the Conservative party—always accepted that the Government must have a majority on Committees. That has always been accepted.

Mr. Andrew Bowden (Brighton, Kemptown)

In view of the point that the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon) has just put to my hon. Friend, I must say that the Northern Ireland situation is entirely different from those in Scotland and in Wales. We know that it is a very delicate and difficult political decision. There are exceptional problems in that area and one feels desperately sorry for the people who live there. Therefore, the Committee of Selection had to look at Northern Ireland in a different light compared with Wales and Scotland. That should deal with the point raised by the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon).

Sir Fergus Montgomery

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I do not argue that our nominations are a statistically accurate reflection of the composition of the House. It is clear that the Labour party would ordinarily expect to have more than two places. However, I had hoped that Labour, like the Government, would be prepared to accept less in order to ensure that every Northern Ireland party was represented on the Committee because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Mr. Bowden) pointed out, special factors apply to Northern Ireland.

Earlier today, we had a debate on the business of the House, when the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) was rather unfair in his criticism of the Committee of Selection. The House made its decision on 9 March. I had hoped to set up the Committee on 16 March. The other Northern Ireland parties had all let me have their nominations; I did not have to ask for them. That is the usual procedure. However, there were no nominations from the SDLP.

The Clerk of the Committee, who was very efficient and hard working, spent the whole of the morning trying to find an SDLP Member. As we had no nominations from the SDLP, I deferred the setting up of the Committee for a full week. We set up the Committee in the following week when we had the nominations from the SDLP. There was no intention on our part of being unfair to the SDLP; we wanted to ensure that it had representation on the Committee.

Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down)

I take cognisance of the veracity of the hon. Gentleman's statement. Nevertheless, it does not alter the fact that my party was not contacted about the proposed meeting or the subsequent meeting. I made contact because I had heard rumours in the House that there was a meeting taking place. There were no lines of communication. There was no direct contact with me or with any other members of my party to enable us to be aware that nominations were required for a meeting on a particular date. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take that as a genuine expression of the truthful position.

Sir Fergus Montgomery

There is an hon. Member who represents the minority parties in the House—he does that extremely well. When the Committee was set up, he relied on the parties concerned to get their nominations to him. That happened. The nominations came to the hon. Member or to me. All the other Northern Ireland parties got their names in on time. Because we wanted to be scrupulously fair, the meeting deferred for one week the setting up of the Committee so that the SDLP could be represented. I hope that the hon. Member for South Down understands that.

Mr. Dixon

I apologise to the hon. Gentleman for continuing to intervene. Is it not a fact that at the first meeting of the Committee of Selection to set up the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs the only thing that we decided was the composition of the Committee—the number of members on the Committee from each political party? After we decided that, the meeting was adjourned for a week to allow names to come in. The SDLP could not put in any names because it did not know who would be on the Committee. Indeed, the Labour party did not put in any names because we were still arguing about whether we should have three or two positions on the Committee. At the first meeting we talked about only the composition; we talked about the names at the second meeting. There was no need to look for SDLP Members—they would not be represented because we had not decided on the representation.

Sir Fergus Montgomery

At the beginning of my remarks, I said what a pleasant Committee the Committee of Selection was. Perhaps I should rethink what I said in the light of all the hon. Gentleman's interventions. I must refresh his memory. The reason why the setting up of the Committee was deferred for one week was to get the names in. That is true.

Mr. Seamus Mallon (Newry and Armagh)

I shall refresh my memory. I believe that the week that the hon. Gentleman is referring to was the week of the last Northern Ireland Question Time, during which my hon. Friend the Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) and I were present. If my memory needs further refreshing and it was the previous week, that was the week that we debated the renewal of the prevention of terrorism Act when my hon. Friends the Members for South Down and for Foyle (Mr. Hume) and I were present. At least we should put that on the record, and the record will show that that is right.

Sir Fergus Montgomery

The hon. Gentleman has made his point. When I was explaining the procedures of the Committee, all I was trying to say was that it is up to the parties concerned to get their nominations in on time. As the House had decided that we should set up the Committee, it is funny that the other Northern Ireland parties understood that and got their names in.

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North)

I am not sure whether this hard-working hon. Member from another party looks after Northern Ireland and the minority parties because I have been consulted three times in the whole Parliament by that hon. Member. That should be put on the record as well.

Sir Fergus Montgomery

A lot of things are being put on the record tonight. All I can say is that, in all the speeches that I have made in the House, I have never had so many interruptions.

There are five amendments on the Order Paper. If all five of them are carried, the Labour party would have seven members on a Committee of 13.

Mr. Norman Hogg (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth)

Hear, hear.

Sir Fergus Montgomery

The hon. Gentleman says "Hear, hear". It may be very pleasant for the Labour party. Certainly it would not be pleasant for the Tory members who will be kicked off the Committee if the amendments are carried, and it would not be fair on the Northern Ireland members. We should be happy to see more Northern Ireland members on the Committee because the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs is there to look after their interests. I simply say to the hon. Member for Cumbernauld and Kilsyth (Mr. Hogg), whom I always find agreeable, that when he is asking for more members, he should remember that this Committee is for the needy, not the greedy.

Mr. John Home Robertson (East Lothian)

The hon. Gentleman has expressed an important principle—that there is a strong case for having more Northern Ireland members on the Committee. Would he extend that principle to Scotland and Wales? Can we have more Scots on the Scottish Affairs Committee?

Sir Fergus Montgomery

If the hon. Gentleman checks, he will find that there are 11 members on both the Scottish Affairs Committee and the Welsh Affairs Committee. On the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, we have made a great concession—there are 13 members because Northern Ireland is represented by four separate political parties. The number of members of the Committee was increased to 13 to meet that.

Sir Michael Neubert (Romford)

Would it be true to say that the intervention of the hon. Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) overlooked the crucial fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Montgomery) mentioned earlier that the two major mainland parties will not be represented in Northern Ireland and that is what makes it a different Committee from the Scottish Affairs Committee and the Welsh Affairs Committee?

Sir Fergus Montgomery

I agree with my hon. Friend, who is a valuable member of the Committee of Selection. He is right that that is one of the difficulties that we had to bear in mind all the way through.

We thought of all sorts of different arrangements for the composition of the Committee. In fairness, most people would agree that, no matter what we decided, there would still be aggrieved hon. Members in the House. Several Tory Members desperately wanted to serve on the Committee, but we could not place them on it because we had only six places to fill. We voted on the six hon. Members whom we thought were the best choices. That was a great disappointment to some of my hon. Friends, and some of them have had harsh words to say to me since then.

Given the peculiar circumstances, the composition that we eventually presented to the House is as fair as it was possible to be to all the parties involved. Therefore, I hope that the House will agree with and accept our nominations.

7.18 pm

Mr. Kevin McNamara (Kingston upon Hull, North)

I beg to move the amendment—

Madam Deputy Speaker

Order. The Speaker has instructed that the amendments will be taken formally at the end of the debate but it is perfectly in order for hon. Members to discuss them now.

Mr. McNamara

At the end of the debate, I shall beg to move the amendments standing in my name and that of my hon. Friends.

Let I say at the outset to the Government Members whom we are suggesting should be taken from the Committee that we do not attack them in any personal way. Everybody admires their sterling qualities—the problem is that they are overshadowed by the sterling qualities of my hon. Friends, whose names we have proposed.

The House will have noted that we have not put up a candidate against the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter). That is because he is a class apart—from which stream, of course, is a question for the House to judge. However, it is not true, as has been maliciously suggested, that he is regarded by the Opposition as being a member of the Ulster Unionist party. That cannot be true, as he sits on the Government Benches. However, he is the chairman of the Northern Ireland Back-Bench committee and it seems correct not to oppose his membership of the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee.

The House will have noted that the composition of a Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee is not merely a procedural parliamentary issue. It has significant political consequences. Until recently, the Government were prepared to acknowledge the wider implications of a Northern Ireland Select Committee, and accepted the need for cross-party support for it. The Northern Ireland Select Committee is not viewed in Ireland simply as an administrative issue—it has a profound symbolic significance.

A Northern Ireland Select Committee is an integral part of the Ulster Unionist party's political agenda and is seen as an integrationist measure. The fact that the Government now support the new composition is seen as evidence of their own political inclination, and belies the Government's self-proclaimed aspiration to be merely a facilitator to the agreement.

Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham)

Will the hon. Gentleman explain why having one Select Committee looking after most of the issues affecting Northern Ireland is integrationist when having six is not?

Mr. McNamara

Had the hon. Gentleman graced our earlier debates, he would have known of the symbolic importance which is attached to the Select Committee, in particular by the Ulster Unionist party. It is part and parcel of its agenda, which includes altering the legislative procedures in the House and having a devolved assembly if it can have one without a broad Irish dimension. It is part and parcel of a political party's agenda, and of what was regarded as being strand 1 of the talks—

Mr. Ken Maginnis (Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

rose—

Mr. McNamara

May I answer the question, and then I will be only too delighted to give way to the hon. Gentleman? It is part and parcel of strand I of the talks which are now beginning to be unravelled.

Mr. Maginnis

Was it the hon. Gentleman's political philosophy that it was his task and that of his party to frustrate the wishes of the largest political party in Northern Ireland and merely to act as a spokesperson for one of the smaller political parties? There appears to be little logic in his argument that, because the Ulster Unionist party believes that there should be accountable democracy, he should set out almost single-handed to defeat it.

Mr. McNamara

The hon. Gentleman flatters me if he thinks I have such power.

It is the policy of the British Labour party to work for a united Ireland by consent. It follows that any measure that is seen as being integrationist in any way or as tightening the bands between this island and Northern Ireland is something to which we are opposed. It is because of that—

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Tony Newton)

rose—

Mr. McNamara

Could I finish my point? We oppose it because we regard it as an integrationist measure.

Mr. Newton

My hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley) asked a good question, to which he has not so far had anything that amounts to an answer. How can it be more integrationist to have a single Select Committee focused on the Northern Ireland Office than to leave the affairs of that office to be treated as part and parcel of the activities of the Agriculture Committee, the Environment Committee, the National Heritage Committee, the Transport Committee and dozens of others? That appears to stand reasoned argument on its head.

Mr. McNamara

If the right hon. Gentleman does not appreciate the symbolic significance in Northern Ireland of the establishment of the Select Committee, he should not be establishing it. That is why it is being fought for. It is not being fought for to provide better administration for the Northern Ireland Office. The Leader of the House himself has said that half a dozen Committees are quite capable of doing it any way. All that the Government are doing with this Committee is increasing bureaucracy, and I thought that the Government were against increasing bureaucracy.

Mr. Bowden

rose—

Madam Deputy Speaker

Order. Before the hon. Gentleman gets truly launched, may I point out that we are concerned with the composition of the Committee and not its functions or whether or not it should be set up?

Mr. McNamara

I agree with you entirely, Madam Deputy Speaker. The points are being put to me by hon. Members, and I am trying to facilitate the debate.

Mr. Bowden

It is important that the hon. Members whom we are to put on the Committee tonight—because as you say, Madam Deputy Speaker, that is what we are discussing—are more than a symbol. Surely they must form an important working group of hon. Members looking in detail at some of the serious problems which Northern Ireland is facing. Is it not a mistake just to call the Committee symbolic, as it is much deeper and more important than that?

Mr. McNamara

With the greatest respect to the hon. Gentleman, I do not think that it is. The Ulster Unionist party, in a reference that it made to the press in a briefing paper, spoke of the symbolic importance of the Committee, and of restoring responsibility back to Stormont. Those are not my words but those of the UUP. That is the significance of the Committee and that is why its composition happens to be of particular importance.

The Government have claimed that they have no selfish strategic or economic interest in Ireland, but they have now allowed a selfish, petty and short-term party interest to dictate their policy towards the establishment, and therefore towards the composition, of a Northern Ireland Select Committee. The political dimension in the composition of the Committee is clear for all to see.

The negative impact of the creation of the Committee is compounded by its proposed composition. The Government are still simply replicating majority rule. Indeed, the Ulster Unionist party said in a briefing paper that the Northern Ireland Select Committee is already harking back to the Stormont regime. The population of Northern Ireland is now split roughly 43 per cent. to 57 per cent., and yet there has been no attempt to ensure that the minority community has a fair representation on the proposed Committee.

The Social Democratic and Labour party received twice as many votes as the Democratic Unionist party and 10 times as many as the Ulster Popular Unionist party, and yet it is to receive exactly the same representation on the Committee. A party that stands in just one constituency and receives just 2.5 per cent. of the votes cast in Northern Ireland—the UPUP—is to get one place on the Select Committee, and possibly even the chairmanship. That gives a completely new definition of the word popular. The SDLP has been allocated one place on the Select Committee, despite receiving 23.5 per cent. of the votes cast in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Peter Bottomley

rose—

Mr. McNamara

With the greatest respect, there is only one and a half hours for the debate. The hon. Gentleman may wish to speak, and the Northern Ireland parties probably wish to contribute. I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman.

Sir Fergus Montgomery

rose—

Mr. McNamara

I am prepared to give way to the Chairman of the Select Committee.

Sir Fergus Montgomery

The hon. Gentleman complains bitterly that the hon. Member for North Down(Sir J. Kilfedder) has been given a place. May I remind him that the Government could have taken seven places, and only took six? The hon. Member for North Down was given a place from the Government side, which did not affect the placing of Opposition Members.

Mr. McNamara

The hon. Gentleman's point would lead me to an argument that I shall advance later. The Leader of the House said that the Government should expect to be able to command a majority"—[Official Report, 9 March 1994; Vol. 239, c. 345.] on the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee, yet they have accepted that there should be only six Conservative places on the Committee. That is because they consider the hon. Member for North Down (Sir J. Kilfedder) to be an honorary Tory. That may be an unfair thing to say about the hon. Gentleman, but, as the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Montgomery) said, the Government have conceded that the circumstances of Northern Ireland are peculiar, which is what we argued to the Secretary of State.

We suggested that both the Government and the Opposition should be prepared to surrender seats to the Northern Ireland parties. We proposed that the Government should have five seats and the Labour party four, with the remainder divided between the Northern Ireland parties. Instead, the Government allotted only two seats to the Labour party, despite the fact that it has 270 Members in the House. That is an outrageous distortion of the principle of proportionality on which the Select Committee system is supposed to be based. That gross misrepresentation cannot possibly be justified, even though the Select Committee on Selection agreed that my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon) should press for three Labour members, despite our first proposal to the Secretary of State.

In Northern Ireland, such gerrymandering serves as a reminder of past abuses of power. The decision to allocate the seats in such a biased way damages the Government's reputation in Ireland and thereby damages the peace process. It is vital that, in any future inter-party talks, there is no question of the Government entering discussions with a hidden agenda, which the composition of the Committee implies that they have.

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has repeatedly claimed that the Government have no blueprint or master plan, yet the decision to establish the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee with such an unrepresen-tative composition casts serious doubts over that assertion. Many have been left with the suspicion that the Government's squalid deal with the Ulster Unionist party has meant a series of concessions to its integrationist agenda, including changes in legislative procedures and the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee.

The biased composition of that Committee aggravates the matter still further because it means that the Conservative and Unionist party and Ulster Unionist party will have an overwhelming majority of 10 to three. Yet the Government had pledged that there would be no return to majoritarian institutions in Northern Ireland. Indeed, the Secretary of State said in speech on 20 January: there can be no going back to a system which has the allegiance of, and is operated by, only one part of the community.

Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East)

The hon. Gentleman has just made me a Tory.

Mr. McNamara

I can understand the hon. Gentleman's unhappiness about such a description, but it would be fair to say that, on most matters regarding Northern Ireland, he would tend to support the Unionist and Conservative and Unionist position rather, than that of the Opposition. However, I am prepared, in the interests of fairness, to make it a majority of nine to four.

Such a cynical short-term policy as the Government have adopted represents a betrayal of the people of these islands. In Britain and Ireland, the overwhelming majority long for a political settlement that will bring peace to these islands. That is not helped by the composition of the new Select Committee.

Such a political settlement must inevitably include some form of devolved power-sharing assembly to govern Northern Ireland and the decision to grant the UUP the Select Committee reduces still further any possibility of agreement on a devolved assembly with a broad Irish dimension.

The Ulster Unionists have always managed to secure a large measure of their integrationist agenda. As a result, there has been no incentive for them to compromise and accept a form of devolved Government, with adequate recognition of national rights and aspirations. A devolved assembly in Northern Assembly should establish committees to monitor the government of Northern Ireland. That should not be done by a Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee at Westminster dominated by the Conservative and Unionist alliance. Those are reasons why we are concerned about the composition of the Committee.

I know that the fact that we have tabled five amendments has caused concern to Conservative Members, no more so than to the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale, who is the Chairman of the Selection Committee. He is terribly afraid that, if all the amendments were carried, the Conservative party would be left with only the hon. Member for Basingstoke on the Committee. Let me assure him that once we have carried the first two amendments, we shall cease to push for any more.

7.34 pm

Mr. Bob Dunn (Dartford)

On behalf of the whole House, I thank the Chairman of the Select Committee on Selection, my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Montgomery), for his contribution to the debate.

It is important to remind ourselves why we are here and of the purpose that led us here. We are here to appoint Members to the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee. Our duty is to respond to resolutions and votes of the House. First, I should like to place on record, as is the fashion, that the Government by convention and precedent always have a majority of seats on Select Committees. Secondly, the House voted that the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee should have 13 members. Thirdly, the Select Committee on Procedure, chaired by my right hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Sir P. Emery) also recommended that all Northern Ireland parties should be represented on the Select Committee.

The Selection Committee had to try, therefore, to reconcile two competing tensions. We had to accom-modate a Government majority in the Committee of 13 members and to accommodate all the parties represented in Ulster. That would pose a difficulty for the Government if they stuck with the concept of a majority. For that reason and that reason alone, the Selection Committee decided to give up one of the Government's places on the Select Committee to the hon. Member for North Down (Sir J. Kilfedder), thereby allowing the Selection Committee to accommodate the recommendation that all parties should be represented on the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee.

I became slightly confused by the comments of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) on the concept of representation by proportion of population and membership of this House. After all, many parties stand for election to the United Kingdom Parliament and do not win seats. The logic of his argument is that those people who vote for parties that are not represented in the House should, by some process of osmosis, be represented on Select Committees. We can appoint only Members of this House to Select Committees. We have no power to do anything else. The way in which our recommendation has accommodated all the parties in Northern Ireland is the right way forward.

It is not for us to argue the pros and cons of a Select Committee for Northern Ireland. The House has voted for it. In the same way, I presume that the House voted for Select Committees for Wales and for Scotland. Equally, I could argue that my county of Kent, which is represented by 16 Members, should have a Select Committee. I do not intend to do so; it would not be wise or sensible. As Kentish Members we can make a major contribution to the work of the Conservative party. The logic of the argument of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North has to stop somewhere, and it must stop here tonight.

The important point is that the Selection Committee is abiding by a requirement of the House. Hon. Members should, therefore, think carefully before voting for the amendments that have been tabled by the official Opposition. They would destroy the work of the Selection Committee, which is so ably chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale.

7.38 pm

Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South)

I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate and to clarify one or two misunderstandings. In the light of the comment by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) on the 53 per cent. to 47 per cent. division of Northern Ireland's population, I was perhaps fortunate to be told this morning that two people from Northern Ireland told the papal nuncio in Dublin that the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) and I were their pastors. I make it abundantly plain that in this House we represent a broad cross-section of the people in Northern Ireland, not the sectarian head count that has been set forth here tonight. We represent the constituents who sent us here.

I also happen to be one of the few Northern Ireland Members who have served consistently on a Select Committee of the House. Although we did our best to include Northern Ireland, we could do it only on occasions. Other things had to be done. To criticise the setting up of a Select Committee for Northern Ireland on the ground that there are six already and it is an integrationist approach, fails to recognise that the Members whom we appoint tonight to that Select Committee will have the task of scrutinising intimately the Northern Ireland Office, which will remain, irrespective of what happens in a devolutionary settlement in Northern Ireland.

In that context, I have been perplexed about why this elongated debate is taking place. I remember only two other occasions when the membership of a Select Committee necessitated a Division. Speaking for the Ulster Unionist party, when we found out that there were so many seats on other Select Committees for Members from Northern Ireland we could have put up four names, but we put up two names to allow the other parties in Northern Ireland to be represented. In the broader pattern of Select Committees, Northern Ireland parties have been under-represented as a result of the failure of parties to put forward representatives. Therefore, I welcome the fact that a Committee that is to monitor—scrutinize—the Northern Ireland Office will have a broad cross-section of members from Northern Ireland.

Perhaps it will be worth while, since other hon. Members have been refreshing memories, if I put on record the fact that although the Select Committee system is reputed to have taken its inspiration from the American Congress, Lord Glenamara recalls in his book, "Whip to Wilson" that Lord Wilson advocated such an idea in the 1960s. It is fascinating that Labour Front-Bench Members are using delaying tactics to prevent it from being set up now.

It is also worth remembering that it was under the Labour Administrations of Lords Wilson, Callaghan and Foot that the system was developed, before being brought to fruition in 1979 under Lord St. John of Fawsley, then Leader of the House in the new Conservative Government.

When we bear in mind the fact that, in 1970, the Labour party demonstrated a clear understanding of the need for an accountable democracy, there seems to have been some change in pattern. Admittedly, that Administration were kept in power by the Ulster Unionist party and colleagues, who supported them—you will recognise this sentence by now, Mr. Deputy Speaker— so long as they governed in the best interests of the United Kingdom in general, and of Nonhem Ireland in particular". That Labour party presided over Northern Ireland's great democratic change in 1970—the redrawing of constituency boundaries, which gave fairer representation to the people of Northern Ireland. It was implied tonight that the people of Northern Ireland, especially the Unionists, had been guilty of gerrymandering, but it is interesting to note that it was pressure from a Northern Ireland Assembly and the Members of the House which led to the Speaker's Conference that ultimately granted us better proportional representation in the House and which allowed more representatives of the nationalist community to come to the House. We have to keep those things clearly in mind, even though I admit that some people might disagree with it.

What is wrong with the motion tonight, which purportedly would give a better distribution of the seats? Like the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), I have nothing against the nominees from the Conservative party, or the nominees from the parties in Northern Ireland and I believe that the Labour party has a right to nominate its own representatives.

We shall all discover that, despite newspaper headlines that seek to portray a scenario such as "Tory-dominated Committee savages Government", the task of a Select Committee, irrespective of what party its members come from, is to scrutinise the affairs of the Department and the Government and, in the light of the evidence, to bring a report to the House. I do not doubt that in the chemistry of a Select Committee there will be movement; there will be changes of opinion. I should like to think that hon., as well as right hon., Ladies and Gentlemen would go with the evidence rather than simply being in a partisan mood.

I find it difficult to understand how Members of the House who support accountable democracy can listen to the arguments made tonight by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North. According to a recent speech by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North in the House, he does not object in principle to the Select Committee system but does object to such a system being extended to Northern Ireland. What nonsense! We see here at work a republican agenda, which seeks to separate Northern Ireland from the rest of the United Kingdom.

Amazingly enough, it was Mr. Haughey and later Mr. Reynolds who, publicly and privately—although perhaps privately they said some things differently to different people—said that it was the responsibility of the House to decide how it scrutinises the Departments of its own Government; it was not a matter for the Dublin Government or anyone outside the House.

Tonight I am happy to support the motion.

Mr. Maginnis

I do not want to quarrel with my hon. Friend at this stage, but it is a misnomer to describe the agenda of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) as a republican agenda. Tonight it was obviously a bitter, sectarian agenda, as we heard from the figures that he misquoted. It is the type of performance that we hear from bitter third generation expatriates and we would not even hear it from representatives of the nationalist community.

Rev. Martin Smyth

My hon. Friend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) makes his own point, but I say to him that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North wishes to remain British but seeks to deny the people of Northern Ireland their right to have the affairs of their Province scrutinised by their Parliament.

Does it not seem strange when we contrast the efforts of the shadow Northern Ireland spokesman to thwart the democratic process with the amazing conversion of, and support for, the British judicial system shown by the Sinn Fein president, Gerry Adams? Mr. Adams has seen the light and has chosen to throw himself, with a bag of British taxpayers' legal aid gold in his pocket, on the mercy of British courts in an effort to regain the right to peddle word of his organisation's terrorism throughout the United Kingdom.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse)

Order. The hon. Gentleman is going rather wide of the motion. Will he get back to it?

Rev. Martin Smyth

I have no difficulty getting back to it, but the comparison still stands and the people of Northern Ireland know the very point. It is amusing that for—

Mr. Mallon

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Before he finishes his interesting speech, will he take the opportunity at least to distance himself and the Ulster Unionist party from the remarks that were made about the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North and, indeed, about many right hon. and hon. Members of the House who are first, second and third generation Irish and have no trace of sectarianism about them, as my hon. Friend has not? I think that it is incumbent on that party to distance itself from that remark, in the interests of fairness.

Rev. Martin Smyth

In the interests of fairness, I will say to the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) that he has made his point, as the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. McGrady) made his point. As far as I am concerned, as I am speaking on behalf of my colleagues here, I support the motion and I trust that the House stands firmly behind the recommendations of the Committee of Selection. I also pay tribute to the representative of the minority parties, the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood), who consults those who should be consulted.

7.49 pm

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North)

I was amazed—perhaps I should not have been—at the speech by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara). He put forward a series of arguments about why the House should not have a Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs and why we should not be voting Members on to that Committee.

It was strange because the hon. Gentleman talked about strand 1 of the talks held in Northern Ireland. He was not present at those talks and does not know what he is talking about. The basis of the strand 1 talks was to find a way to govern Northern Ireland and, once that was settled, to decide what relationship the Government or Administration would have with Dublin. To suggest that the Government are now breaking their pledge on strand 1 and that they should not be democratically accountable to the House through their own Select Committee is ridiculous. I do not know how the hon. Gentleman feels about strand 1, but it has nothing to do with whether the House has a Select Committee. At the strand 1 talks, everyone except the SDLP agreed that the Select Committee was a matter for this House and that the House should do for Northern Ireland what it does for every other part of the United Kingdom. That shows that the hon. Gentleman's argument was in tatters before he started his speech tonight.

The hon. Gentleman went on to say that, because the Government have said that they have no selfish, strategic or economic interest in Northern Ireland remaining within the United Kingdom, they should not set up the Select Committee. The Select Committee will look at the present government of Northern Ireland. Will not the people of Northern Ireland be allowed to scrutinise their own Government as those in every other part of the United Kingdom do?

The hon. Gentleman argued that, because the Government have said that they have no selfish, strategic or economic interests in keeping Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom if the majority of people in Northern Ireland do not want to remain within it, Northern Ireland should cease to have the same sort of government as the rest of the United Kingdom. He also argued that we were breaking with the status quo, but we are only establishing it. Every other part of the United Kingdom has that privilege.

Why should not we be allowed to have the Government scrutinised and to look at how they govern Northern Ireland? Why should not we be allowed to ask how the money is spent? Why should not we be allowed to question civil servants, who have a hundred times more power in Northern Ireland today than they ever had—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse)

Order. Will the hon. Gentleman get back to the establishment of the Committee rather than arguing for it?

Rev. Ian Paisley

I should have thought, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the members of the Committee were the right people to find out what this matter is about and to scrutinise it. I am responding to the various suggestions made by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North. Those must be answered, for the people of Northern Ireland will say to us—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. This debate is about the constitution of the Committee. If the hon. Gentleman will stick to that, he will be in order; otherwise, he will not.

Rev. Ian Paisley:

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North also mentioned some percentages. I noticed that he convenient-ly left out the fact that, in the European elections, the Ulster Democratic Unionist party took 30 per cent. of the vote. He forgot all about that. He also discovered a statistic that the Roman Catholic population now represents almost 50 per cent. of the people of Northern Ireland. It is amazing that he puts up those arguments in recommending—I am coming to the point, Mr. Deputy Speaker—that more Labour party members should be on the Committee. If this Committee is so wretched and bad and should not exist, the hon. Gentleman should ask to give up his party's two seats on it and let other Northern Ireland Members get on the Committee to do the work in which they are interested.

The hon. Gentleman's argument is ridiculous. May I say on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland that this debate is a microcosm of what has happened in Northern Ireland throughout the years. No progress can be made because certain people will not let us, except if it is progress towards Dublin and a united Ireland. Tonight's debate simply holds up the people of Northern Ireland from having the same rights as people in the rest of the Kingdom.

We have argued about the basis of the Committee. My party has no seat on any Select Committee in the House because we were never offered a seat. I was thrown off the Select Committee on Agriculture and the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) was put on it. He had to be taken off the Agriculture Committee because he did not attend, whereas I was a good attender. I do not know who is responsible for the Committee of Selection, but my party has never been approached to have a member on any Select Committee. I raised that matter with the Prime Minister and he said, "Oh, we'll see about it." So I could have a grouse tonight and say that, although my party has three Members in the House, we sit on no Select Committee.

I pay tribute to the Chairman of the Select Committee, who did a difficult job. What would be better than to have every party represented? After all, at the talks we have a party that has no members in the House—the Alliance party. Yet because one Member has his own party—the UPUP—and has been returned to the House, the Labour party thinks that he should have no say and should not be allowed on the Select Committee. It is reasonable that all parties from Northern Ireland should be on the Committee.

Other members of the Committee do not know the whole position, the questions to ask or what needs to be probed. They do not know the difficulties that we have in Northern Ireland and they will depend largely on the representatives from Northern Ireland to put the questions that need to be put.

I am sure that the Government are not over-enthusiastic about that. Their civil servants have already told me that they are not and—I do not refer to those presently in the Box. They must realise that the tragedy of Northern Ireland, where we have been unable to scrutinise the Government, must come to an end. The Committee can do that job and I hope that it will do it well. Under the circumstances, it is reasonable to have the numbers proposed on the Order Paper.

7.57 pm

Ms Kate Hoey (Vauxhall)

May I say a few words in support of the Select Committee and the amendments in the name of my hon. Friends?

A Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs is long overdue and I am pleased that it is being set up. There is an amazing democratic deficit in Northern Ireland and the people of Northern Ireland are neglected in all sorts of ways. Before getting back to a devolved Government in Northern Ireland, the least that we can do is to get this Select Committee going and begin the scrutiny that is needed.

I support the membership of my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) and in particular my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Barnes), who has done an enormous amount of work on Northern Ireland matters and who put forward his name for the original selection list. I hope that he will get on the Committee.

Some of my hon. Friends and I are sad that my party still does not allow people in Northern Ireland to join it. We are rightly asking for more Labour Members to serve on the Select Committee, yet if I went back to live in Northern Ireland I could not remain a member of the Labour party. That is disgraceful. My party needs to deal with that problem—indeed, it is dealing with it.

Recently members of the Union of Communications Workers and the Amalgamated Engineering Union were asked whether they should have the right in Northern Ireland to join the Labour party. Protestants and Catholics alike overwhelmingly stated that they wanted the right to join the Labour party and wished that they had the right to vote for it. That is not to say—unfortunately—that they would all vote Labour, but our party should at the very least be in Northern Ireland arguing for our policies and organising. Only in that way can we in the Opposition claim really to represent the people of Northern Ireland.

Attitudes to the people of Northern Ireland are often patronising. Every time we hear of another dreadful incident, we say that they just want to fight and kill each other. Yet the Labour party does not give those people the chance to cross the sectarian divide and to join a party that would fight for their jobs, their health service and so on.

I know that this debate is about only one aspect of the situation—the setting up of the Select Committee—but I hope that it will mark a new recognition of the fact that, as long as the people of Northern Ireland want to stay part of the United Kingdom, they should have the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else. And that means that the Labour party should be involved. If it were, we could change the whole nature of politics in Northern Ireland.

I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, North-East is elected to the Select Committee tonight. I hope that that Committee will carry out the scrutiny of Northern Ireland affairs that they so desperately need and give the people of Northern Ireland back their faith that the people in this part of the United Kingdom care about them and understand what is happening there.

8.1 pm

Mr. Archy Kirkwood (Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

As a member of the Committee of Selection, I cannot resist pointing out that until this evening I used to wonder why that Committee holds all those difficult meetings. Now that I have witnessed this debate in the House I can see the justification for all the work that we do in the Committee. Certainly, there have been robust exchanges of irreconcilable views this evening.

I pay tribute to the Chairman of the Committee, the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Montgomery). His is a difficult job. Although I do not entirely accept the recommendation that our Committee put to the House, I believe that the hon. Gentleman did everything conceivably possible to try to reach a consensus. The fact that that proved impossible was not for want of trying on his part. The House owes him a debt for the work that he did, even though a consensus eluded him.

It is always difficult to reconcile competing interests of this sort, as the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Dunn) pointed out. Some of the cross-currents cannot meet smoothly, especially since the Procedure Committee set out the rules to be followed, in the form of the motion that the House passed a few weeks ago.

I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) saying that his interests were not vigorously represented in the Committee of Selection. I take it that he would like to serve on more Committees scrutinising rating and valuation statutory instruments. Good Unionist that he is, I am sure that he would love to gain my recommendation that he serve on such Committees. If his name does appear on future Committee lists, he will learn that casting aspersions on members of the Committee of Selection can have its downside.

The hon. Member for Antrim, North did make a serious point, however. He was worried about the lack of places for minority parties on Select Committees. The rules of proportionality for Select Committees make it difficult to guarantee places for parliamentary groupings of only three hon. Members. As the unofficial shop steward for the minority parties, I do my best to ensure an element of rotation—but I completely understood the hon. Gentleman's Complaint.

This Select Committee is extremely necessary. That is why I found the speech by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) perplexing. I could not follow the logic of what he was trying to say. He was looking for bogeymen around every corner. Whatever birth pangs may have attended the setting up of this Committee, I hope that they will in no way make it more difficult to achieve a satisfactory resolution of the issues with which it will be concerned.

The working methods used by Select Committees—the hallmark of their success—are needed now more than ever in the Province. The hon. Member for Antrim, North rightly said that there are urgent and compelling issues to do with the governance of the Province that need scrutinising—how money is allocated, and so on. There is much work to be done; I hope that the Committee will get on with it.

The membership is not satisfactory from the point of view of the Liberal Democrats. The Chairman of the Committee of Selection said, I think, that a statistical balance had to be observed. Arithmetically speaking, he was right; but he must accept that my party played a robust part in setting up the Committee. We have always said that it should be set up, yet we have been denied membership of it. The hon. Gentleman and I have gone into the reasons for that at exhaustive length, but it is a shame that my party has not been able to nominate anyone to serve.

Certain alternatives should have been canvassed. For instance, do the Government really need a majority? It would have been better if the Select Committee covering Northern Ireland had left the Government without a majority. That would have enabled it more comprehensively to represent the shades of opinion from the Province.

The hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale said that the Alliance party has no representative in the House but has a role to play. It is essential that the strand of opinion which it represents be given a voice in the conduct of the affairs of the Province—if that is true of Northern Ireland in general, it is even more true for the membership of this Committee.

Mr. Norman Hogg

The hon. Gentleman says that he is dissatisfied with the selection that has been made, but he has not yet said how his party intends to vote on the amendments. I commend to him amendment (c)—I have done many things in politics, but I have never before been an amendment. I hope that he will feel able to support it.

Mr. Kirkwood

I can give the hon. Gentleman the satisfaction that he seeks. There is no one I would more like to see on the Committee. Speaking as a fellow Presbyterian, I know the hon. Gentleman's prejudices well, and I look forward to giving him the opportunity to argue for them at length in the Select Committee.

Mr. Mallon

I do not wish to interfere in this Presbyterian convention, but is there any significance in the fact that amendment (c) is to leave out Mr. Dick Spring?

Mr. Kirkwood

I would be out of order if I answered that.

There is always a danger of pigeonholing people. I hope that that danger can be averted on the Select Committee. While it is reasonable that people will want to advance the political point of view of their parties, I hope that they will not be stuck in the trenches of party-political warfare. The Select Committee would suffer as a result. I should have liked more imagination and flexibility from the Government. For example, they could have set up a joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament. It would have provided access to talent from the other place—people with distinguished careers and experience in the Province—and made the structure and composition of the Committee that much easier. A number of other possibilities could have been considered to make the composition better suited to the range of political opinion and community interests in Northern Ireland.

In conclusion, as the hon. Member for Cumbernauld and Kilsyth (Mr. Hogg) requested, although I repeat my tribute to the Chairman of the Committee of Selection and all our labours to get the circle squared, I cannot support the current membership of the Committee. I shall vote accordingly and ask my hon. Friends to support all the amendments, particularly amendment (c) which seeks to include the hon. Member for Cumbernauld and Kilsyth. Why he wants to spend time trying to wrestle with the intractable problems that the Select Committee will face defeats me. We could achieve a better reconciliation of the different views by putting forward a different membership of the Committee, and I shall recommend that my hon. Friends vote accordingly.

8.10 pm

Mr. Andrew Bowden (Brighton, Kemptown)

I shall be brief. I add my tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Mongomery). His dignity and understanding of other people's points of view enables the Committee of Selection to work effectively. It is a great service to the House that we manage to iron out most problems and ensure they do not reach the House. It is regrettable that tonight we have not achieved as much as we have in the past.

The Northern Ireland Select Committee will make an important contribution to the affairs of Northern Ireland, so its composition is absolutely vital. I return to an intervention that I made regarding the description of the Committee. Of course it can be called a symbolic Committee, but its composition will ensure that it is much more than that; it is representative of the people of Northern Ireland and it will have the widespread powers that are available to Select Committees in the House. When the Committee is in full operation, the important role that it can play will be seen in Northern Ireland.

I agree with the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Ms Hoey) that it is a pity that the Committee was not established some time ago. Nobody suggests that it will produce magic answers to many of the appallingly difficult problems in Northern Ireland, but it will have a major contribution to make in relation to the views that it will hear from the range of witnesses that it will be able to call, on whatever topic it decides to investigate in detail.

The composition was a difficult decision for the Committee of Selection and now we have to decide it in the House tonight. The recommendations are just about right and, frankly, I believe that the time has now come to get the Committee established and operating as quickly as possible, to allow it to make its contribution to the grave problems facing all the people of Northern Ireland. Let us stop the talking and get the Committee set up.

8.13 pm

Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down)

I am grateful for the opportunity to participate in the debate, however briefly.

Hon. Members present tonight may not have attended the debate this afternoon, or the debate on 9 March in which I tried to argue that, although some hon. Members might think that we are engaged in procedural matters of the House, we are without doubt involved in a political decision.

I am glad to see the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the Minister of State on the Front Bench. Earlier today, I quoted some of his comments that suggested that the Committee could not and should not be formed unless it had two qualifications: first, that it had cross-community support in Northern Ireland, and secondly, that it had cross-party support in the House. Neither of those two qualifications is present, yet the decision has been made to go ahead.

The reason can be seen in the timing of the announcement by the Leader of the House—24 hours after the Downing street declaration. The announcement was on 16 December, the day after 15 December. After all the words of the previous two years, the statements by Ministers were wiped out by that action, which clearly demonstrated that we are engaged in a political rather than a procedural process this evening.

I know that I will not be allowed to continue this train of debate, because we are talking about the Select Committee—its composition, numbers and representation—yet it is important because it affects our view of the integrity of the Government's even-handed approach to the affairs of Northern Ireland.

As to the composition of the Committee as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the best yardstick one can use is the popular vote, which was obtained in June 1987 at the last general election. On that basis, it would appear that my party, the Social Democratic and Labour party, is the only party among all those in the House from Northern Ireland which is under-represented. The other three are over-represented, by however marginal a fraction. One at least is over-represented by a factor of 10.

I listened with great interest to the ingenious arguments of earlier speakers.

Mr. Peter Robinson

I would be interested to hear how the hon. Gentleman works out the statistics. We are discussing a Select Committee of a United Kingdom Parliament. Every party in Northern Ireland represented on the Select Committee is over-represented when taken against the whole United Kingdom figure.

Mr. McGrady

I do not know whether or not to thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Much has been made of the quality of representation from the Northern Ireland political parties. I reiterate the point that my party, the SDLP, is the only party which is under-represented on the Committee, and that each of the other parties is over-represented.

Some earlier speeches suggested that the Popular Unionist nomination, the hon. Member for North Down (Sir J. Kilfedder), was not a Northern Irish nomination but was the Government representative—a Tory, but not a card-carrying member of the Tory party. I remind those who made that suggestion of the debates in the House on the Maastricht treaty and on the closure of the mines, when Ministers referred to the Conservative and Unionist party, looking at the Members of the House who sit behind me in the official Unionist parties, or whatever name they wish to use.

Rev. Martin Smyth

Neither provisional nor official.

Mr. McGrady

But they used to be official.

Why did the Government not carry forward the logic of their statements—that the appointees of the Unionist parties in Northern Ireland were extensions of the Conservative party—when their brethrenship had been claimed at the Dispatch Box on two vital occasions in the past 12 months? I find that argument disingenuous.

The fact that it is an unfair allocation of seats is not the opinion of my party alone. I have a one-sentence quotation from a editorial from the Belfast Telegraph, which cannot be described as a nationalist newspaper: The membership, six Conservatives, two Labour, two Ulster Unionists, one DUP, one Popular Unionist and one SDLP, does not mirror the political balance in the province". As I have said, that newspaper has no nationalist leanings whatever.

Except in regard to the political aspect referred to earlier, proportionality has not applied. It will be a great pity if the Government do not take this opportunity to display even-handedness. No later than December 1993, the central community relations unit of the Northern Ireland Office issued a circular—5/93—which stated categorically that the Government must not only respect equality of representation when dealing with various communities, but be proactive in achieving that. In my view, they have signally failed to be proactive this evening in supporting the Select Committee's recommendations; we shall therefore vote against the motion.

Reference has been made to correspondence, and the way in which arrangements for nominations were made vis-a-vis my party. Having heard accidentally that the Committee of Selection was meeting, I sent a fax to its Chairman, dated 16 March. I received his reply on 17 March, when we were all present for Northern Ireland Question Time. I took on board what the Chairman had said, and we then submitted our nominations on 19 March. The process could not have taken place more swiftly or accurately.

Until then, no communication of any nature regarding the meetings, appointments or procedures of the Select Committee was made known, through the so-called usual channels, to my party or any member of it.

8.21 pm

Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham)

Let me make two linked points.

We ought to be concerned about a question that has not been answered tonight: when has each of the six Select Committees currently considering Northern Ireland administration looked into certain issues? Between 1989 and 1990, when I served in the Northern Ireland Office, the Select Committee on Environment visited Northern Ireland, questioned me here and produced a report. I have served for a year on the Select Committee on Transport; that Committee has not considered Northern Ireland issues, and, as far as I am aware, other Committees have not done so either.

I believe that the new proposal will bring more Northern Ireland Members on to the Committee, which is why I support the recommendations of the Committee of Selection. I hope that, after tonight's votes, Northern Ireland will receive more attention, with more Northern Ireland Members and others considering the issues; that Departments will become more accountable; and that the people of Northern Ireland will benefit.

8.22 pm

Mr. Clive Soley (Hammersmith)

If anyone had any illusions about the problems involved in legislating for Northern Ireland, today's debates should have dispelled them. We have spent about four hours debating the matter, and the Select Committee has not even met yet.

I speak with the advantage of having been nominated for membership of the Committee, and I am actually looking forward to it: I think that it will be very interesting. I hope that people will not think that I am a masochist. Let me say to the Government—and to the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Montgomery), who made a pretty good fist of a difficult job—that the numbers problem is a problem for Northern Ireland Select Committees in any event. The Unionists may not be so keen on the experiment in the coming months.

As always in Northern Ireland, the problem is that legislation takes place in a way that shows the area to be different from the rest of the United Kingdom. In an intervention in the speech of the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale, the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Mr. Bowden) mentioned the special delicacy involved in Northern Ireland legislation: it is that special delicacy which makes Northern Ireland different.

Let me tell my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Ms Hoey) that all three political parties that organise, vote, campaign, put up candidates and so on in Great Britain do not do so in Northern Ireland, for very good reasons. People in Northern Ireland are quite capable of organising a Labour, Tory or Liberal party, but do not choose to do so, because the question of the border is too important.

When the Tory party tried to organise there, it was crushed when the Liberal party toyed with the idea, it was wisely advised not to become involved by the Alliance party, which presented itself as something like the Liberal party in Northern Ireland, and still does so.

There used to be a Northern Ireland Labour party—a small party, which once told me that there was a strong case for putting a gas pipeline between Northern Ireland and Scotland, that there was a far better case for that than for putting it through the south of Ireland. The party argued on the basis of there being more jobs. I am a great believer in creating more jobs, but the real reason was that the party was tending towards the Unionist position.

Rev. Martin Smyth

rose—

Mr. Soley

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me; I have not much time to make this point.

If the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale were setting up a Select Committee dealing with Scottish or Welsh affairs—which he is obliged to do in his capacity—he would seek to put only Scottish or Welsh Members on that Committee. The one thing that changes the position is the existence of a Government without a majority.

The hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) made a good point when he said that the Government should not automatically have a majority on Select Committees, but the reality is that they do. In fact, both the main political parties would support that, because in government they would want that arrangement.

The hon. Gentleman said, very fairly and bluntly, that this was a political question: it was about political power. As political power in this country comes not from the barrel of a gun but from the ballot box, there is a case for that argument, but the hon. Gentleman knows that in Scotland only Scottish Members would be involved. The only reason for the existence of English Members on the Scottish Select Committee is the fact that the Government have no majority there, and they stack the Committee with English Members to make up the numbers.

Logically, a Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs should consist only of Northern Ireland Members, except when the Government must stack it with English Members to obtain a majority. Straight away, we see the anomaly. As I have told the Unionists, the same applies to the Government of Ireland Act 1947, which states that Northern Ireland will remain part of the United Kingdom for as long as it wishes. The same legislation cannot be framed for England, Scotland or Wales. It is there only because no British political party for donkey's years has treated Northern Ireland as a normal part of the United Kingdom—and we shall not be doing so again

Having said that, let me add that we are going to have a Northern Ireland Committee, and we must make it work. My hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall was right in one respect: Northern Ireland does not receive the coverage it deserves. However, we are not going about it in the right way by establishing a Select Committee. It is very important that the Committee does not become a mini-Stormont; if it does, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), and others who have spoken, will have their worst nightmares proved correct.

It was the Stormont parliament—which was virtually a one-party state—that produced so many of the problems with which we are now trying to cope in Northern Ireland. Other hon. Members have also referred to it as a one-party state-but, to be fair, the new Unionist parties have now splintered into several different groups.

Let me say to any Conservative Members who will be with me on the Committee that I hope they will join me in encouraging it to meet occasionally—I emphasise the word "occasionally" deliberately, because of what I just said—in Northern Ireland. That would be useful. It would also be useful if they joined me in suggesting that the Committee visited Dublin from time to time; it will need to do so. [Interruption.] Again, we see divisions of opinion, but this is very important. We should meet in Dublin and in Northern Ireland because—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. We are not talking about where the Committee should meet; I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is well aware of what the motion says.

Mr. Soley

You are absolutely right, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My point is that Unionist Members will want the Committee to meet in Northern Ireland; they will not want it to meet in Dublin.

As Select Committee members, we must ensure that the Committee examines the problems of Northern Ireland in a bipartisan way. That is why the membership is important: it is useful for the Committee to have non-Unionist members from both sides of the House, because it is impossible to consider such matters as transport, agriculture, industrial investment, tourism and many other matters in Northern Ireland without also examining the link with southern Ireland—for instance, electricity prices and the price of the national grid for the whole of Ireland.

Those issues would not be addressed in that, way by Unionist Members. In a perverse way, the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale was right to ensure that hon. Members from both sides of the House were represented on the Committee. He will not be surprised to hear me say that where he has gone badly wrong is that he has too few Labour Members. In an intervention, he made it perfectly clear why he wanted only two Labour Members on the Committee. He thought that, if there were to be a Labour Government, the Tories would have only two members. He may be right.

However, I hope that we would not have set up the Select Committee in this way, because Northern Ireland needs something better than a Select Committee. It needs proper legislation which addresses the needs of the Unionists and the republicans in Northern Ireland, and the relationship between the north of Ireland and the south. Until we do that, Northern Ireland will always be under-represented.

8.30 pm

Mr. Harry Barnes (Derbyshire, North-East)

This is one of the better attended meetings on Northern Ireland. I hope that, by getting more involved in the affairs of Northern Ireland, the members of the Select Committee will join those of us who are concerned about Northern Ireland affairs when, late at night, we discuss appropriation measures, which are the equivalent of the Budget in Northern Ireland.

There is a great deal in which people can become involved. If the POLIS record—the parliamentary on-line information service—is examined, it will be discovered that the Conservative Members who have been placed on the Committee, with the exception of the chairman of their Back-Bench committee, have not, until now, been much involved in Northern Ireland matters in the House. That does not mean that they should not be on the Committee, as it will provide an opportunity for them to become interested in these matters.

It can do nothing but benefit Northern Ireland if we are all be interested in its affairs and concerned about its well-being.

It being one and a half hours after the motion was entered upon, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER put the Questions which he was directed to put at that hour, pursuant to Order this day.

Amendment proposed to the Question: (a), leave out 'Mr. James Cran' and insert 'Mr. Thomas McAvoy'.—[Mr. McNamara.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 239, Noes 312.

Division No. 184]	[8.31 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane	Bell, Stuart
Adams, Mrs Irene	Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)	Bennett, Andrew F.
Allen, Graham	Benton, Joe
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)	Bermingham, Gerald
Armstrong, Hilary	Berry, Dr. Roger
Ashton, Joe	Betts, Clive
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)	Blunkett, David
Barnes, Harry	Boateng, Paul
Barron, Kevin	Bray, Dr Jeremy
Battle, John	Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Bayley, Hugh	Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret	Burden, Richard
Beith, Rt Hon A. J.	Byers, Stephen

Caborn, Richard	Hoon, Geoffrey
Callaghan, Jim	Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)	Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)	Hoyle, Doug
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)	Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Campbell-Savours, D. N.	Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Canavan, Dennis	Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Cann, Jamie	Hume, John
Cariile, Alexander (Montgomry)	Hutton, John
Chisholm, Malcolm	Illsley, Eric
Clapham, Michael	Ingram, Adam
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)	Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)	Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)	Jamieson, David
Clelland, David	Janner, Greville
Clwyd, Mrs Ann	Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)
Cohen, Harry	Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Connarty, Michael	Jowell, Tessa
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)	Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Cook, Robin (Livingston)	Keen, Alan
Corbett, Robin	Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn)
Corbyn, Jeremy	Khabra, Piara S.
Corston, Ms Jean	Kilfoyle, Peter
Cousins, Jim	Kirkwood, Archy
Cox, Tom	Lestor, Joan (Eccles)
Cryer, Bob	Lewis, Terry
Cunliffe, Lawrence	Litherland, Robert
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)	Livingstone, Ken
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John	Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Dalyell, Tam	Llwyd, Elfyn
Darling, Alistair	Loyden, Eddie
Davidson, Ian	McAllion, John
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)	McAvoy, Thomas
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)	McCartney, Ian
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)	Macdonald, Calum
Denham, John	McFall, John
Dewar, Donald	McGrady, Eddie
Dixon, Don	McKelvey, William
Dobson, Frank	Mackinlay, Andrew
Donohoe, Brian H.	McLeish, Henry
Dowd, Jim	McMaster, Gordon
Eagle, Ms Angela	McNamara, Kevin
Eastham, Ken	McWilliam, John
Enright, Derek	Madden, Max
Etherington, Bill	Maddock, Mrs Diana
Evans, John (St Helens N)	Mahon, Alice
Faulds, Andrew	Mallon, Seamus
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)	Marek, Dr John
Fisher, Mark	Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Flynn, Paul	Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)
Foster, Rt Hon Derek	Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)
Foulkes, George	Martlew, Eric
Fraser, John	Maxion, John
Fyfe, Maria	Meacher, Michael
Gapes, Mike	Michael, Alun
Garrett, John	Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
George, Bruce	Milburn, Alan
Gerrard, Neil	Miller, Andrew
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John	Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Godman, Dr Norman A.	Morley, Elliot
Godsiff, Roger	Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe)
Golding, Mrs Llin	Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Gordon, Mildred	Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)	Mowlam, Marjorie
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)	Mudie, George
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)	Mullin, Chris
Grocott, Bruce	Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Gunnell, John	O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)
Hall, Mike	O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Hanson, David	O'Hara, Edward
Hardy, Peter	Olner, William
Harman, Ms Harriet	O'Neill, Martin
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy	Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Heppell, John	Pickthall, Colin
Hill, Keith (Streatham)	Pike, Peter L.
Hinchliffe, David	Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Hoey, Kate	Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)	Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Horne Robertson, John	Prescott, John
Hood, Jimmy	Primarolo, Dawn

Purchase, Ken	Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
Quin, Ms Joyce	Steinberg, Gerry
Radice, Giles	Stevenson, George
Randall, Stuart	Stott, Roger
Raynsford, Nick	Strang, Dr. Gavin
Redmond, Martin	Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Reid, Dr John	Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Rendel, David	Turner, Dennis
Robertson, George (Hamilton)	Vaz, Keith
Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW)	Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
Roche, Mrs. Barbara	Walley, Joan
Rogers, Allan	Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Rooney, Terry	Wareing, Robert N
Rowlands, Ted	Watson, Mike
Ruddock, Joan	Wicks, Malcolm
Sedgemore, Brian	Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Sheerman, Barry	Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert	Winnick, David
Short, Clare	Wise, Audrey
Simpson, Alan	Worthington, Tony
Skinner, Dennis	Wray, Jimmy
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)	Wright, Dr Tony
Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)	Young, David (Bolton SE)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Snape, Peter	Tellers for the Ayes:
Soley, Clive	Mr. Alan Meale and
Spearing, Nigel	Mr. John Cummings.
Spellar, John

NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)	Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Aitken, Jonathan	Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Alexander, Richard	Coe, Sebastian
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)	Colvin, Michael
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)	Congdon, David
Ancram, Michael	Conway, Derek
Arbuthnot, James	Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)	Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)	Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Ashby, David	Cormack, Patrick
Aspinwall, Jack	Couchman, James
Atkins, Robert	Cran, James
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)	Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)	Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)	Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)	Davis, David (Boothferry)
Baldry, Tony	Day, Stephen
Banks, Matthew (Southport)	Deva, Nirj Joseph
Bates, Michael	Devlin, Tim
Batiste, Spencer	Dickens, Geoffrey
Beggs, Roy	Dorrell, Stephen
Bellingham, Henry	Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Bendall, Vivian	Dover, Den
Beresford, Sir Paul	Duncan, Alan
Biffen, Rt Hon John	Duncan-Smith, Iain
Body, Sir Richard	Dunn, Bob
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas	Durant, Sir Anthony
Booth, Hartley	Dykes, Hugh
Boswell, Tim	Eggar, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)	Elletson, Harold
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia	Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Bowden, Andrew	Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Bowis, John	Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes	Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Brandreth, Gyles	Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Brazier, Julian	Evennett, David
Bright, Graham	Faber, David
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)	Fabricant, Michael
Browning, Mrs. Angela	Fenner, Dame Peggy
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)	Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Budgen, Nicholas	Fishburn, Dudley
Burns, Simon	Forman, Nigel
Butterfill, John	Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Carlisle, John (Luton North)	Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)	Forth, Eric
Carrington, Matthew	Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Carttiss, Michael	Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Cash, William	Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Churchill, Mr	Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
Clappison, James	French, Douglas

Fry, Sir Peter	Maclean, David
Gale, Roger	McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Gallie, Phil	Madel, Sir David
Gardiner, Sir George	Maginnis, Ken
Garnier, Edward	Maitland, Lady Olga
Gill, Christopher	Malone, Gerald
Gillan, Cheryl	Mans, Keith
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles	Marland, Paul
Gorman, Mrs Teresa	Martow, Tony
Gorst, John	Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW)	Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)	Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)	Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)	Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Grylls, Sir Michael	Mellor, Rt Hon David
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn	Merchant, Piers
Hague, William	Mills, Iain
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie	Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)	Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW)
Hampson, Dr Keith	Moate, Sir Roger
Hanley, Jeremy	Molyneaux, Rt Hon James
Hannam, Sir John	Monro, Sir Hector
Hargreaves, Andrew	Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Harris, David	Moss, Malcolm
Haselhurst, Alan	Nelson, Anthony
Hawkins, Nick	Neubert, Sir Michael
Hawksley, Warren	Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Hayes, Jerry	Nicholls, Patrick
Heald, Oliver	Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Heathcoat-Amory, David	Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
Hendry, Charles	Norris, Steve
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael	Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.	Oppenheim, Phillip
Hill, James (Southampton Test)	Ottaway, Richard
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)	Page, Richard
Horam, John	Paice, James
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter	Paisley, Rev Ian
Howard, Rt Hon Michael	Patten, Rt Hon John
Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)	Pawsey, James
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)	Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)	Pickles, Eric
Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)	Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)	Porter, David (Waveney)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)	Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Hunter, Andrew	Rathbone, Tim
Jack, Michael	Redwood, Rt Hon John
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)	Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Jenkin, Bernard	Richards, Rod
Jessel, Toby	Riddick, Graham
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey	Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)	Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr)	Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael	Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine	Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Key, Robert	Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Kilfedder, Sir James	Ross, William (E Londonderry)
King, Rt Hon Tom	Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Kirkhope, Timothy	Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Knapman, Roger	Sackville, Tom
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)	Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim
Knight, Greg (Derby N)	Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)	Shaw, David (Dover)
Knox, Sir David	Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)	Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Lait, Mrs Jacqui	Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Lang, Rt Hon Ian	Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Lawrence, Sir Ivan	Shersby, Michael
Legg, Barry	Sims, Roger
Leigh, Edward	Skeet, Sir Trevor
Lennox-Boyd, Mark	Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)	Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Lidington, David	Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Lightbown, David	Soames, Nicholas
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter	Speed, Sir Keith
Lloyd, Rt Hon Peter (Fareham)	Spencer, Sir Derek
Lord, Michael	Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Luff, Peter	Spink, Dr Robert
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas	Spring, Richard
MacGregor, Rt Hon John	Sproat, Iain
MacKay, Andrew	Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John	Viggers, Peter
Steen, Anthony	Waktegrave, Rt Hon William
Stephen, Michael	Walden, George
Stern, Michael	Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N)
Stewart, Allan	Waller, Gary
Streeter, Gary	Ward, John
Sumberg, David	Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Sweeney, Walter	Waterson, Nigel
Sykes, John	Watts, John
Tapsell, Sir Peter	Wells, Bowen
Taylor, Ian (Esher)	Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd)	Whitney, Ray
Taylor, John M. (Solihull)	Whittingdale, John
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)	Widdecombe, Ann
Temple-Morris, Peter	Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Thomason, Roy	Wilkinson, John
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)	Willetts, David
Thornton, Sir Malcolm	Wilshire, David
Thurnham, Peter	Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Townend, John (Bridlington)	Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)	Wolfson, Mark
Tracey, Richard	Wood, Timothy
Tredinnick, David	Yeo, Tim
Trend, Michael	Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Trimble, David
Trotter, Neville	Tellers for the Noes:
Twinn, Dr Ian	Mr. Sydney Chapman and
Vaughan, Sir Gerard	Mr. Irvine Patrick.

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment proposed to the Question: (b), leave out `Mr. Charles Hendry' and insert 'Mr. Harry Barnes'.—[Mr. McNamara.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 241, Noes 313.

Division No. 185]	[8.44 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane	Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Adams, Mrs Irene	Clelland, David
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)	Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Allen, Graham	Cohen, Harry
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)	Connarty, Michael
Armstrong, Hilary	Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Ashton, Joe	Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)	Corbett, Robin
Barnes, Harry	Corbyn, Jeremy
Barron, Kevin	Corston, Ms Jean
Battle, John	Cousins, Jim
Bayley, Hugh	Cox, Tom
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret	Cryer, Bob
Beith, Rt Hon A. J.	Cunliffe, Lawrence
Bell, Stuart	Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony	Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John
Bennett, Andrew F.	Dalyell, Tam
Benton, Joe	Darling, Alistair
Bermingham, Gerald	Davidson, Ian
Berry, Roger	Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)
Betts, Clive	Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Blunkett, David	Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)
Boateng, Paul	Denham, John
Bray, Dr Jeremy	Dewar, Donald
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)	Dixon, Don
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)	Dobson, Frank
Burden, Richard	Donohoe, Brian H.
Byers, Stephen	Dowd, Jim
Caborn, Richard	Eagle, Ms Angela
Callaghan, Jim	Eastham, Ken
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)	Enright, Derek
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)	Etherington, Bill
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)	Evans, John (St Helens N)
Campbell-Savours, D. N.	Faulds, Andrew
Canavan, Dennis	Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Cann, Jamie	Fisher, Mark
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)	Flynn, Paul
Chisholm, Malcolm	Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Clapham, Michael	Foulkes, George
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)	Fraser, John
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)	Fyfe, Maria

Gapes, Mike	Martlew, Eric
Garrett, John	Maxton, John
George, Bruce	Meacher, Michael
Gerrard, Neil	Meale, Alan
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John	Michael, Alun
Godman, Dr Norman A.	Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Godsiff, Roger	Milburn, Alan
Golding, Mrs Llin	Miller, Andrew
Gordon, Mildred	Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Graham, Thomas	Morley, Elliot
Grant, Bermie (Tottenham)	Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)	Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)	Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Grocott, Bruce	Mowlam, Marjorie
Gunnell, John	Mudie, George
Hall, Mike	Mullin, Chris
Hanson, David	Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Hardy, Peter	O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)
Harman, Ms Harriet	O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy	O'Hara, Edward
Heppell, John	Olner, William
Hill, Keith (Streatham)	O'Neill, Martin
Hinchliffe, David	Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Hoey, Kate	Patchett, Terry
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)	Pickthall, Colin
Horne Robertson, John	Pike, Peter L.
Hood, Jimmy	Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Hoon, Geoffrey	Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)	Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)	Prescott, John
Hoyle, Doug	Primarolo, Dawn
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)	Purchase, Ken
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)	Quin, Ms Joyce
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)	Radice, Giles
Hume, John	Randall, Stuart
Hutton, John	Raynsford, Nick
Illsley, Eric	Redmond, Martin
Ingram, Adam	Reid, Dr John
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)	Rendel, David
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)	Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Jamieson, David	Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW)
Janner, Greville	Roche, Mrs. Barbara
Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)	Rogers, Allan
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)	Rooney, Terry
Jowell, Tessa	Rowlands, Ted
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald	Ruddock, Joan
Keen, Alan	Sedgemore, Brian
Kennedy, Charles (Ross, C&S)	Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn)	Short, Clare
Khabra, Piara S.	Simpson, Alan
Kirkwood, Archy	Skinner, Dennis
Lestor, Joan (Eccles)	Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Lewis, Terry	Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Litherland, Robert	Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Livingstone, Ken	Snape, Peter
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)	Soley, Clive
Llwyd, Elfyn	Spearing, Nigel
Loyden, Eddie	Spellar, John
McAllion, John	Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
McAvoy, Thomas	Steinberg, Gerry
McCartney, Ian	Stevenson, George
Macdonald, Calum	Stott, Roger
McFall, John	Strang, Dr. Gavin
McGrady, Eddie	Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
McKelvey, William	Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Mackinlay, Andrew	Turner, Dennis
McLeish, Henry	Vaz, Keith
McMaster, Gordon	Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
McNamara, Kevin	Walley, Joan
McWilliam, John	Warded, Gareth (Gower)
Madden, Max	Wareing, Robert N
Maddock, Mrs Diana	Watson, Mike
Mahon, Alice	Wicks, Malcolm
Mallon, Seamus	Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Marek, Dr John	Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)	Winnick, David
Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)	Wise, Audrey
Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)	Worthington, Tony

Wray, Jimmy	Tellers for the Ayes:
Wright, Dr Tony	Mr. John Cummings and
Young, David (Bolton SE)	Mr. Peter Kilfoyle.

NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)	Duncan-Smith, Iain
Aitken, Jonathan	Dunn, Bob
Alexander, Richard	Durant, Sir Anthony
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)	Dykes, Hugh
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)	Eggar, Tim
Ancram, Michael	Elletson, Harold
Arbuthnot, James	Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)	Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)	Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Ashby, David	Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Aspinwall, Jack	Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Atkins, Robert	Evennett, David
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)	Faber, David
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)	Fabricant, Michael
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)	Fenner, Dame Peggy
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)	Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Baldry, Tony	Fishburn, Dudley
Banks, Matthew (Southport)	Forman, Nigel
Bates, Michael	Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Batiste, Spencer	Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S)
Beggs, Roy	Forth, Eric
Bellingham, Henry	Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Bendall, Vivian	Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Beresford, Sir Paul	Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Biffen, Rt Hon John	Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
Body, Sir Richard	French, Douglas
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas	Fry, Sir Peter
Booth, Hartley	Gale, Roger
Boswell, Tim	Gallie, Phil
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)	Gardiner, Sir George
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia	Garnier, Edward
Bowden, Andrew	Gill, Christopher
Bowis, John	Gillan, Cheryl
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes	Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Brandreth, Gyles	Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Brazier, Julian	Gorst, John
Bright, Graham	Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW)
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)	Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Browning, Mrs. Angela	Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)	Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Budgen, Nicholas	Grylls, Sir Michael
Burns, Simon	Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Butterfill, John	Hague, William
Carlisle, John (Luton North)	Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)	Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Carrington, Matthew	Hampson, Dr Keith
Carttiss, Michael	Hanley, Jeremy
Cash, William	Hannam, Sir John
Churchill, Mr	Hargreaves, Andrew
Clappison, James	Harris, David
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)	Haselhurst, Alan
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey	Hawkins, Nick
Coe, Sebastian	Hawksley, Warren
Colvin, Michael	Hayes, Jerry
Congdon, David	Heald, Oliver
Conway, Derek	Heathcoat-Amory, David
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)	Hendry, Charles
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)	Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John	Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.
Cormack, Patrick	Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Couchman, James	Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Cran, James	Horam, John
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)	Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)	Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)	Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Davis, David (Boothferry)	Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Day, Stephen	Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Deva, Nirj Joseph	Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)
Devlin, Tim	Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Dickens, Geoffrey	Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Dorrell, Stephen	Hunter, Andrew
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James	Jack, Michael
Dover, Den	Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Duncan, Alan	Jenkin, Bernard

Jessel, Toby	Riddick, Graham
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey	Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)	Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr)	Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael	Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Kellett-Bowrnan, Dame Elaine	Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Key, Robert	Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Kilfedder, Sir James	Ross, William (E Londonderry)
King, Rt Hon Tom	Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Kirkhope, Timothy	Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Knapman, Roger	Sackville, Tom
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)	Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim
Knight, Greg (Derby N)	Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)	Shaw, David (Dover)
Knox, Sir David	Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)	Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Lait, Mrs Jacqui	Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Lang, Rt Hon Ian	Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Lawrence, Sir Ivan	Shersby, Michael
Legg, Barry	Sims, Roger
Leigh, Edward	Skeet, Sir Trevor
Lennox-Boyd, Mark	Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)	Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Lidington, David	Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Lightbown, David	Soames, Nicholas
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter	Speed, Sir Keith
Lloyd, Rt Hon Peter (Fareham)	Spencer, Sir Derek
Lord, Michael	Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Luff, Peter	Spink, Dr Robert
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas	Spring, Richard
MacGregor, Rt Hon John	Sproat, Iain
MacKay, Andrew	Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Maclean, David	Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick	Steen, Anthony
Madel, Sir David	Stephen, Michael
Maginnis, Ken	Stern, Michael
Maitland, Lady Olga	Stewart, Allan
Malone, Gerald	Streeter, Gary
Mans, Keith	Sumberg, David
Marland, Paul	Sweeney, Walter
Marlow, Tony	Sykes, John
Marshall, John (Hendon S)	Tapsell, Sir Peter
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)	Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)	Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd)
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian	Taylor, John M. (Solihull)
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick	Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Mellor, Rt Hon David	Temple-Morris, Peter
Merchant, Piers	Thomason, Roy
Mills, Iain	Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)	Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW)	Thurnham, Peter
Moate, Sir Roger	Townend, John (Bridlington)
Molyneaux, Rt Hon James	Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)
Monro, Sir Hector	Tracey, Richard
Montgomery, Sir Fergus	Tredinnick, David
Moss, Malcolm	Trend, Michael
Nelson, Anthony	Trimble, David
Neubert, Sir Michael	Trotter, Neville
Newton, Rt Hon Tony	Twinn, Dr Ian
Nicholls, Patrick	Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Nicholson, David (Taunton)	Viggers, Peter
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)	Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Norris, Steve	Walden, George
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley	Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N)
Oppenheim, Phillip	Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Ottaway, Richard	Waller, Gary
Page, Richard	Ward, John
Paice, James	Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Paisley, Rev Ian	Waterson, Nigel
Patten, Rt Hon John	Watts, John
Pawsey, James	Wells, Bowen
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth	Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Pickles, Eric	Whitney, Ray
Porter, Barry (Wirral S)	Whittingdale, John
Porter, David (Waveney)	Widdecombe, Ann
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael	Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Rathbone, Tim	Wilkinson, John
Redwood, Rt Hon John	Willetts, David
Renton, Rt Hon Tim	Wilshire, David
Richards, Rod	Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

Winterton, Nicholas(Macc'f'ld)
Wolfson, Mark	Tellers for the Noes:
Wood, Timothy	Mr. Sydney Chapman and
Yeo, Tim	Mr. Irvine Patnick
Yound, Rt Hon Sir George

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment proposed to the Question: (c), leave out `Mr. Richard Spring' and insert 'Mr. Norman Hogg'.—[Mr. McNamara.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 239, Noes 307.

Division No. 186]	[8.56 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane	Dixon, Don
Adams, Mrs Irene	Dobson, Frank
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)	Donohoe, Brian H.
Allen, Graham	Dowd, Jim
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)	Eagle, Ms Angela
Armstrong, Hilary	Eastham, Ken
Ashton, Joe	Enright, Derek
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)	Etherington, Bill
Barnes, Harry	Evans, John (St Helens N)
Barron, Kevin	Faulds, Andrew
Battle, John	Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Bayley, Hugh	Fisher, Mark
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret	Flynn, Paul
Beith, Rt Hon A. J.	Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Bell, Stuart	Foulkes, George
Benn, Rt Hon Tony	Fraser, John
Bennett, Andrew F.	Fyfe, Maria
Benton, Joe	Gapes, Mike
Bermingham, Gerald	Garrett, John
Berry, Dr. Roger	George, Bruce
Betts, Clive	Gerrard, Neil
Blunkett, David	Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Boateng, Paul	Godman, Dr Norman A.
Bray, Dr Jeremy	Godsiff, Roger
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)	Golding, Mrs Llin
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)	Gordon, Mildred
Burden, Richard	Graham, Thomas
Byers, Stephen	Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Caborn, Richard	Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Callaghan, Jim	Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)	Grocott, Bruce
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)	Gunnell, John
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)	Hall, Mike
Campbell-Savours, D. N.	Hanson, David
Canavan, Dennis	Hardy, Peter
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)	Harman, Ms Harriet
Chisholm, Malcolm	Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Clapham, Michael	Heppell, John
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)	Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)	Hinchliffe, David
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)	Hoey, Kate
Clelland, David	Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann	Home Robertson, John
Cohen, Harry	Hood, Jimmy
Connarty, Michael	Hoon, Geoffrey
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)	Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Cook, Robin (Livingston)	Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)
Corbett, Robin	Hoyle, Doug
Corbyn, Jeremy	Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Corston, Ms Jean	Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Cousins, Jim	Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Cox, Tom	Hume, John
Cryer, Bob	Hutton, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence	Illsley, Eric
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)	Ingram, Adam
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John	Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)
Dalyell, Tam	Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)
Darling, Alistair	Jamieson, David
Davidson, Ian	Janner, Greville
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)	Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)	Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)	Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Denham, John	Keen, Alan
Dewar, Donald	Kennedy, Charles (Ross, C&S)

Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn)	Prescott, John
Khabra, Piara S.	Primarolo, Dawn
Kilfoyle, Peter	Purchase, Ken
Lestor, Joan (Eccles)	Quin, Ms Joyce
Lewis, Terry	Radice, Giles
Litherland, Robert	Randall, Stuart
Livingstone, Ken	Raynsford, Nick
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)	Redmond, Martin
Llwyd, Elfyn	Reid, Dr John
Loyden, Eddie	Rendel, David
McAllion, John	Robertson, George (Hamilton)
McAvoy, Thomas	Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW)
McCartney, Ian	Roche, Mrs. Barbara
Macdonald, Calum	Rogers, Allan
McFall, John	Rooney, Terry
McGrady, Eddie	Rowlands, Ted
McKelvey, William	Ruddock, Joan
Mackinlay, Andrew	Sedgemore, Brian
McLeish, Henry	Sheerman, Barry
McMaster, Gordon	Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
McNamara, Kevin	Short, Clare
McWilliam, John	Simpson, Alan
Madden, Max	Skinner, Dennis
Maddock, Mrs Diana	Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Mahon, Alice	Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Mallon, Seamus	Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Marek, Dr John	Snape, Peter
Marshall, David (Shettleston)	Soley, Clive
Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)	Spearing, Nigel
Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)	Spellar, John
Martlew, Eric	Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
Maxton, John	Steinberg, Gerry
Meacher, Michael	Stevenson, George
Michael, Alun	Stott, Roger
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)	Strang, Dr. Gavin
Milburn, Alan	Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Miller, Andrew	Thompson, Jack (Wansback)
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)	Turner, Dennis
Morley, Elliot	Vaz, Keith
Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe)	Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)	Walley, Joan
Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)	Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Mowlam, Marjorie	Wareing, Robert N
Mudie, George	Watson, Mike
Mullin, Chris	Wicks, Malcolm
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon	Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)	Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
O'Brien, William (Normanton)	Winnick, David
O'Hara, Edward	Wise, Audrey
Olner, William	Worthington, Tony
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley	Wray, Jimmy
Patchett, Terry	Wright, Dr Tony
Pickthall, Colin	Young, David (Bolton SE)
Pike, Peter L.
Powell, Ray (Ogmore)	Tellers for the Ayes:
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)	Mr. John Cummings, and Mr. Alan Meale.
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)	Bellingham, Henry
Aitken, Jonathan	Bendall, Vivian
Alexander, Richard	Beresford, Sir Paul
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)	Biffen, Rt Hon John
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)	Body, Sir Richard
Ancram, Michael	Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Arbuthnot, James	Booth, Hartley
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)	Boswell, Tim
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)	Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Ashby, David	Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia
Aspinwall, Jack	Bowden, Andrew
Atkins, Robert	Bowis, John
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)	Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Atkinson, Peter(Hexham)	Brandreth, Gyles
Baker, Rt Hon K.(Mole Valley)	Brazier, Julian
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)	Bright, Graham
Baldry, Tony	Browning, Mrs. Angela
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)	Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Bates, Michael	Budgen, Nicholas
Batiste, Spencer	Burns, Simon
Beggs, Roy	Butterfill, John

Carlisle, John (Luton North)	Haselhurst, Alan
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)	Hawkins, Nick
Carrington, Matthew	Hawksley, Warren
Carttiss, Michael	Hayes, Jerry
Cash, William	Heald, Oliver
Chapman, Sydney	Heathcoat-Amory, David
Churchill, Mr	Hendry, Charles
Clappison, James	Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)	Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey	Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Coe, Sebastian	Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Colvin, Michael	Horam, John
Congdon, David	Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Conway, Derek	Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)	Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)	Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John	Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Cormack, Patrick	Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)
Couchman, James	Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Cran, James	Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)	Hunter, Andrew
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)	Jack, Michael
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)	Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Davis, David (Boothferry)	Jenkin, Bernard
Day, Stephen	Jessel, Toby
Deva, Nirj Joseph	Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Devlin, Tim	Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Dickens, Geoffrey	Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr)
Dorrell, Stephen	Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James	Key, Robert
Dover, Den	Kilfedder, Sir James
Duncan, Alan	King, Rt Hon Tom
Duncan-Smith, Iain	Kirkhope, Timothy
Dunn, Bob	Knapman, Roger
Durant, Sir Anthony	Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Dykes, Hugh	Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Eggar, Tim	Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Elletson, Harold	Knox, Sir David
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)	Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)	Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)	Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)	Legg, Barry
Evennett, David	Leigh, Edward
Faber, David	Lennox-Boyd, Mark
Fabricant, Michael	Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)
Fenner, Dame Peggy	Lidington, David
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)	Lightbown, David
Fishburn, Dudley	Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Forman, Nigel	Lloyd, Rt Hon Peter (Fareham)
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)	Lord, Michael
Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S)	Luff, Peter
Forth, Eric	Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman	MacGregor, Rt Hon John
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)	Maclean, David
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)	McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger	Madel, Sir David
French, Douglas	Maginnis, Ken
Fry, Sir Peter	Maitland, Lady Olga
Gale, Roger	Malone, Gerald
Gallie, Phil	Mans, Keith
Gardiner, Sir George	Marland, Paul
Garnier, Edward	Marlow, Tony
Gill, Christopher	Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Gillan, Cheryl	Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles	Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Gorman, Mrs Teresa	Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Gorst, John	Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW)	Mellor, Rt Hon David
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)	Merchant, Piers
Greenway, John (Ryedale)	Mills, Iain
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)	Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Grylls, Sir Michael	Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW)
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn	Moate, Sir Roger
Hague, William	Molyneaux, Rt Hon James
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie	Monro, Sir Hector
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)	Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Hanley, Jeremy	Moss, Malcolm
Hannam, Sir John	Nelson, Anthony
Hargreaves, Andrew	Neubert, Sir Michael
Harris, David	Newton, Rt Hon Tony

Nicholls, Patrick	Stephen, Michael
Nicholson, David (Taunton)	Stern, Michael
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)	Stewart, Allan
Norris, Steve	Streeter, Gary
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley	Sumberg, David
Oppenheim, Phillip	Sweeney, Walter
Ottaway, Richard	Sykes, John
Page, Richard	Tapsell, Sir Peter
Paice, James	Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Paisley, Rev Ian	Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd)
Patnick, Irvine	Taylor, John M. (Solihull)
Patten, Rt Hon John	Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Pawsey, James	Temple-Morris, Peter
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth	Thomason, Roy
Pickles, Eric	Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Porter, David (Waveney)	Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael	Thurnham, Peter
Rathbone, Tim	Townend, John (Bridlington)
Redwood, Rt Hon John	Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)
Renton, Rt Hon Tim	Tracey, Richard
Richards, Rod	Tredinnick, David
Riddick, Graham	Trend, Michael
Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm	Trimble, David
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn	Trotter, Neville
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)	Twinn, Dr Ian
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)	Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)	Viggers, Peter
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)	Walden, George
Ross, William (E Londonderry)	Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N)
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)	Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela	Waller, Gary
Sackville, Tom	Ward, John
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim	Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas	Waterson, Nigel
Shaw, David (Dover)	Watts, John
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)	Wells, Bowen
Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian	Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)	Whitney, Ray
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)	Whittingdale, John
Shersby, Michael	Widdecombe, Ann
Sims, Roger	Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Skeet, Sir Trevor	Wilkinson, John
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)	Willetts, David
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)	Wilshire, David
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)	Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Soames, Nicholas	Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Speed, Sir Keith	Wolfson, Mark
Spencer, Sir Derek	Wood, Timothy
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)	Yeo, Tim
Spink, Dr Robert	Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain	Tellers for the Noes:
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)	Mr. Andrew MacKay and Mr. Michael Brown
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment proposed to the Question: (d), leave out 'Mr. David Wilshire' and insert 'Mr. Andrew Mackinlay'.—[Mr. McNamara. ]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 235, Noes 308.

Division No. 187]	[9.08 pm
AYES
Adams, Mrs Irene	Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)	Bennett, Andrew F.
Allen, Graham	Benton, Joe
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)	Bermingham, Gerald
Armstrong, Hilary	Berry, Dr. Roger
Ashton, Joe	Betts, Clive
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)	Blunkett, David
Barnes, Harry	Boateng, Paul
Barron, Kevin	Bray, Dr Jeremy
Battle, John	Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Bayley, Hugh	Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret	Burden, Richard
Beith, Rt Hon A. J.	Byers, Stephen
Bell, Stuart	Caborn, Richard

Callaghan, Jim	Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)	Hoyle, Doug
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)	Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)	Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Campbell-Savours, D. N.	Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Canavan, Dennis	Hume, John
Cann, Jamie	Hutton, John
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)	Illsley, Eric
Chisholm, Malcolm	Ingram, Adam
Clapham, Michael	Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)	Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)	Jamieson, David
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)	Janner, Greville
Clelland, David	Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann	Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Cohen, Harry	Jowell, Tessa
Connarty, Michael	Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)	Keen, Alan
Cook, Robin (Livingston)	Kennedy, Charles (Ross, C&S)
Corbett, Robin	Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn)
Corbyn, Jeremy	Khabra, Piara S.
Corston, Ms Jean	Kirkwood, Archy
Cousins, Jim	Lestor, Joan (Eccles)
Cox, Tom	Lewis, Terry
Cryer, Bob	Litherland, Robert
Cunliffe, Lawrence	Livingstone, Ken
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)	Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John	Llwyd, Elfyn
Dalyell, Tam	Loyden, Eddie
Darling, Alistair	McAllion, John
Davidson, Ian	McAvoy, Thomas
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)	McCartney, Ian
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)	Macdonald, Calum
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)	McFall, John
Denham, John	McGrady, Eddie
Dewar, Donald	McKelvey, William
Dixon, Don	Mackinlay, Andrew
Donohoe, Brian H.	McLeish, Henry
Dowd, Jim	McMaster, Gordon
Eagle, Ms Angela	McNamara, Kevin
Eastham, Ken	McWilliam, John
Enright, Derek	Madden, Max
Etherington, Bill	Maddock, Mrs Diana
Faulds, Andrew	Mahon, Alice
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)	Mallon, Seamus
Fisher, Mark	Marek, Dr John
Flynn, Paul	Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Foster, Rt Hon Derek	Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)
Foulkes, George	Martlew, Eric
Fraser, John	Maxton, John
Fyfe, Maria	Meacher, Michael
Gapes, Mike	Meale, Alan
Garrett, John	Michael, Alun
George, Bruce	Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Gerrard, Neil	Milburn, Alan
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John	Miller, Andrew
Godman, Dr Norman A.	Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Godsiff, Roger	Morley, Elliot
Golding, Mrs Llin	Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe)
Gordon, Mildred	Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Graham, Thomas	Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)	Mowlam, Marjorie
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)	Mudie, George
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)	Mullin, Chris
Grocott, Bruce	O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)
Gunnell, John	O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Hall, Mike	O'Hara, Edward
Hanson, David	Olner, William
Hardy, Peter	Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Harman, Ms Harriet	Patchett, Terry
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy	Pickthall, Colin
Heppell, John	Pike, Peter L.
Hill, Keith (Streatham)	Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Hinchliffe, David	Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)
Hoey, Kate	Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)	Prescott, John
Horne Robertson, John	Primarolo, Dawn
Hood, Jimmy	Purchase, Ken
Hoon, Geoffrey	Quin, Ms Joyce
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)	Randall, Stuart

Raynsford, Nick	Stevenson, George
Redmond, Martin	Stott, Roger
Reid, Dr John	Strang, Dr. Gavin
Rendel, David	Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Robertson, George (Hamilton)	Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW)	Turner, Dennis
Roche, Mrs. Barbara	Vaz, Keith
Rogers, Allan	Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
Rooney, Terry	Walley, Joan
Rowlands, Ted	Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Ruddock, Joan	Wareing, Robert N
Sedgemore, Brian	Watson, Mike
Sheerman, Barry	Wicks, Malcolm
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert	Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Short, Clare	Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Simpson, Alan	Winnick, David
Skinner, Dennis	Wise, Audrey
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)	Worthington, Tony
Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)	Wray, Jimmy
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)	Wright, Dr Tony
Snape, Peter	Young, David (Bolton SE)
Soley, Clive
Spearing, Nigel	Tellers for the Ayes:
Spellar, John	Mr. John Cummings and Mr. Peter Kilfoyle.
Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
Steinberg, Gerry

NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)	Conway, Derek
Aitken, Jonathan	Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Alexander, Richard	Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)	Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)	Cormack, Patrick
Ancram, Michael	Couchman, James
Arbuthnot, James	Cran, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)	Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)	Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Ashby, David	Davies, Ouentin (Stamford)
Aspinwall, Jack	Davis, David (Boothferry)
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)	Day, Stephen
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)	Deva, Nirj Joseph
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)	Devlin, Tim
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)	Dickens, Geoffrey
Baldry, Tony	Dorrell, Stephen
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)	Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Bates, Michael	Dover, Den
Batiste, Spencer	Duncan, Alan
Beggs, Roy	Duncan-Smith, Iain
Bellingham, Henry	Dunn, Bob
Bendall, Vivian	Durant, Sir Anthony
Beresford, Sir Paul	Dykes, Hugh
Biffen, Rt Hon John	Eggar, Tim
Body, Sir Richard	Elletson, Harold
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas	Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfleld)
Booth, Hartley	Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Boswell, Tim	Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)	Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia	Evennett, David
Bowden, Andrew	Faber, David
Bowis, John	Fabricant, Michael
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes	Fenner, Dame Peggy
Brandreth, Gyles	Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Brazier, Julian	Fishburn, Dudley
Browning, Mrs. Angela	Forman, Nigel
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)	Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Burns, Simon	Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S)
Butterfill, John	Forth, Eric
Carlisle, John (Luton North)	Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)	Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Carrington, Matthew	Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Carttiss, Michael	Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
Cash, William	French, Douglas
Chapman, Sydney	Fry, Sir Peter
Churchill, Mr	Gale, Roger
Clappison, James	Gallie, Phil
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)	Gardiner, Sir George
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey	Garnier, Edward
Coe, Sebastian	Gill, Christopher
Colvin, Michael	Gillan, Cheryl
Congdon, David	Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Gorman, Mrs Teresa	Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Gorst, John	Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW)	Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)	Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Greenway, John (Ryedale)	Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)	Mellor, Rt Hon David
Grylls, Sir Michael	Merchant, Piers
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn	Mills, Iain
Hague, William	Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie	Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW)
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)	Moate, Sir Roger
Hampson, Dr Keith	Molyneaux, Rt Hon James
Hanley, Jeremy	Monro, Sir Hector
Hannam, Sir John	Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Hargreaves, Andrew	Moss, Malcolm
Harris, David	Nelson, Anthony
Haselhurst, Alan	Neubert, Sir Michael
Hawkins, Nick	Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Hawksley, Warren	Nicholls, Patrick
Hayes, Jerry	Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Heald, Oliver	Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
Heathcoat-Amory, David	Norris, Steve
Hendry, Charles	Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael	Oppenheim, Phillip
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.	Ottaway, Richard
Hill, James (Southampton Test)	Page, Richard
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)	Paice, James
Horam, John	Paisley, Rev Ian
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter	Patnick, Irvine
Howard, Rt Hon Michael	Patten, Rt Hon John
Howarth, Alan (Strafrd-on-A)	Pawsey, James
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)	Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)	Pickles, Eric
Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)	Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)	Porter, David (Waveney)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)	Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Hunter, Andrew	Rathbone, Tim
Jack, Michael	Redwood, Rt Hon John
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)	Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Jenkin, Bernard	Richards, Rod
Jessel, Toby	Riddick, Graham
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey	Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)	Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Jones, Robert B. (WHertfdshr)	Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael	Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine	Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Key, Robert	Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Kilfedder, Sir James	Ross, William (E Londonderry)
King, Rt Hon Tom	Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Kirkhope, Timothy	Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Knapman, Roger	Ryder, Rt Hon Richard
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)	Sackville, Tom
Knight, Greg (Derby N)	Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)	Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas
Knox, Sir David	Shaw, David (Dover)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)	Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui	Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Lang, Rt Hon Ian	Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Lawrence, Sir Ivan	Shersby, Michael
Legg, Barry	Sims, Roger
Leigh, Edward	Skeet, Sir Trevor
Lennox-Boyd, Mark	Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)	Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Lidington, David	Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Lightbown, David	Soames, Nicholas
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter	Speed, Sir Keith
Lloyd, Rt Hon Peter (Fareham)	Spencer, Sir Derek
Lord, Michael	Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Luff, Peter	Spink, Dr Robert
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas	Spring, Richard
MacGregor, Rt Hon John	Sproat, Iain
Maclean, David	Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick	Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Madel, Sir David	Steen, Anthony
Maginnis, Ken	Stephen, Michael
Maitland, Lady Olga	Stern, Michael
Malone, Gerald	Stewart, Allan
Mans, Keith	Streeter, Gary
Marland, Paul	Sumberg, David
Marlow, Tony	Sweeney, Walter

Sykes, John	Waller, Gary
Tapsell, Sir Peter	Ward, John
Taylor, Ian (Esher)	Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd)	Waterson, Nigel
Taylor, John M. (Solihull)	Watts, John
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)	Wells, Bowen
Temple-Morris, Peter	Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Thomason, Roy	Whitney, Ray
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)	Whittingdale, John
Thornton, Sir Malcolm	Widdecombe, Ann
Thumham, Peter	Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Townend, John (Bridlington)	Wilkinson, John
Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)	Willetts, David
Tracey, Richard	Wilshire, David
Tredinnick, David	Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Trend, Michael	Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Trimble, David	Wolfson, Mark
Trotter, Neville	Wood, Timothy
Twinn, Dr Ian	Yeo, Tim
Vaughan, Sir Gerard	Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Viggers, Peter
Walden, George	Tellers for the Noes:
Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N)	Mr. Andrew MacKay and Mr. Michael Brown
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment proposed to the Question: (e), leave out 'Mr. Mark Wolfson' and insert 'Mr. Austin Mitchell'.—[Mr. McNamara.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 234, Noes 307.

Division No. 188]	[9.21 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane	Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Adams, Mrs Irene	Corbett, Robin
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)	Corbyn, Jeremy
Allen, Graham	Corston, Ms Jean
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)	Cousins, Jim
Armstrong, Hilary	Cox, Tom
Ashton, Joe	Cryer, Bob
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)	Cummings, John
Barnes, Harry	Cunliffe, Lawrence
Barron, Kevin	Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Battle, John	Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John
Bayley, Hugh	Dalyell, Tam
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret	Darling, Alistair
Beith, Rt Hon A. J.	Davidson, Ian
Bell, Stuart	Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony	Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Bennett, Andrew F.	Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)
Benton, Joe	Denham, John
Bermingham, Gerald	Dewar, Donald
Berry, Roger	Dixon, Don
Betts, Clive	Dobson, Frank
Blunkett, David	Donohoe, Brian H.
Boateng, Paul	Dowd, Jim
Bray, Dr Jeremy	Eagle, Ms Angela
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)	Eastham, Ken
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)	Enright, Derek
Burden, Richard	Etherington, Bill
Byers, Stephen	Faulds, Andrew
Callaghan, Jim	Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)	Fisher, Mark
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)	Flynn, Paul
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)	Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Campbell-Savours, D. N.	Foulkes, George
Canavan, Dennis	Fraser, John
Cann, Jamie	Fyfe, Maria
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)	Gapes, Mike
Chisholm, Malcolm	Garrett, John
Clapham, Michael	George, Bruce
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)	Gerrard, Neil
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)	Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)	Godman, Dr Norman A.
Clelland, David	Godsiff, Roger
Clwyd, Mrs Ann	Golding, Mrs Llin
Cohen, Harry	Gordon, Mildred
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)	Graham, Thomas

Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)	Morley, Elliot
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)	Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)	Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Grocott, Bruce	Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Gunnell, John	Mowlam, Marjorie
Hall, Mike	Mudie, George
Hanson, David	Mullin, Chris
Hardy, Peter	Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Harman, Ms Harriet	O'Brien, Michael (N Wkshire)
Heppell, John	O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Hill, Keith (Streatham)	O'Hara, Edward
Hinchliffe, David	Olner, William
Hoey, Kate	Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)	Patchett, Terry
Horne Robertson, John	Pickthall, Colin
Hood, Jimmy	Pike, Peter L.
Hoon, Geoffrey	Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Howarth, George (KnowsleyN)	Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)	Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Hoyle, Doug	Prescott, John
Hughes, Kevin (DoncasterN)	Primarolo, Dawn
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)	Purchase, Ken
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)	Quin, Ms Joyce
Hume, John	Randall, Stuart
Hutton, John	Raynsford, Nick
Ingram, Adam	Redmond, Martin
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)	Reid, Dr John
Jackson, Helen (Shefld, H)	Rendel, David
Jamieson, David	Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Janner, Greville	Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW)
Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)	Roche, Mrs. Barbara
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)	Rogers, Allan
Jowell, Tessa	Rooney, Terry
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald	Rowlands, Ted
Keen, Alan	Ruddock, Joan
Kennedy, Charles (Ross.C&S)	Sedgemore, Brian
Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn)	Sheerman, Barry
Khabra, Piara S.	Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Kilfoyle, Peter	Short, Clare
Kirkwood, Archy	Simpson, Alan
Lestor, Joan (Eccles)	Skinner, Dennis
Lewis, Terry	Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Litherland, Robert	Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Livingstone, Ken	Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)	Snape, Peter
Llwyd, Elfyn	Soley, Clive
Loyden, Eddie	Spearing, Nigel
McAllion, John	Spellar, John
McAvoy, Thomas	Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
McCartney, Ian	Steinberg, Gerry
Macdonald, Calum	Stevenson, George
McFall, John	Stott, Roger
McGrady, Eddie	Strang, Dr. Gavin
McKelvey, William	Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Mackinlay, Andrew	Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
McLeish, Henry	Turner, Dennis
McMaster, Gordon	Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
McNamara, Kevin	Walley, Joan
McWilliam, John	Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Madden, Max	Wareing, Robert N
Maddock, Mrs Diana	Watson, Mike
Mahon, Alice	Wicks, Malcolm
Mallon, Seamus	Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Marek, Dr John	Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)	Winnick, David
Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)	Wise, Audrey
Martlew, Eric	Worthington, Tony
Maxton, John	Wray, Jimmy
Meacher, Michael	Wright, Dr Tony
Michael, Alun	Young, David (Bolton SE)
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Milburn, Alan	Tellers for the Ayes:
Miller, Andrew	Mr. Eric Illsley and Mr. Alan Meale.
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)	Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Aitken, Jonathan	Ancram, Michael
Alexander, Richard	Arbuthnot, James
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)	Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)	Fishburn, Dudley
Ashby, David	Forman, Nigel
Aspinwall, Jack	Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)	Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)	Forth, Eric
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)	Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)	Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Baldry, Tony	Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)	Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
Bates, Michael	French, Douglas
Batiste, Spencer	Fry, Sir Peter
Beggs, Roy	Gale, Roger
Bellingham, Henry	Gallie, Phil
Bendall, Vivian	Gardiner, Sir George
Beresford, Sir Paul	Garnier, Edward
Biffen, Rt Hon John	Gill, Christopher
Body, Sir Richard	Gillan, Cheryl
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas	Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Booth, Hartley	Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Boswell, Tim	Gorst, John
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)	Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia	Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Bowden, Andrew	Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Bowis, John	Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes	Grylls, Sir Michael
Brandreth, Gyles	Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Brazier, Julian	Hague, William
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)	Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Browning, Mrs. Angela	Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)	Hampson, Dr Keith
Burns, Simon	Hanley, Jeremy
Butterfill, John	Hannam, Sir John
Carlisle, John (Luton North)	Hargreaves, Andrew
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)	Harris, David
Carrington, Matthew	Haselhurst, Alan
Carttiss, Michael	Hawkins, Nick
Cash, William	Hawksley, Warren
Chapman, Sydney	Hayes, Jerry
Churchill, Mr	Heald, Oliver
Clappison, James	Heathcoat-Amory, David
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)	Hendry, Charles
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey	Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.
Coe, Sebastian	Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Colvin, Michael	Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Congdon, David	Horam, John
Conway, Derek	Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)	Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)	Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John	Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Cormack, Patrick	Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Couchman, James	Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)
Cran, James	Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)	Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)	Hunter, Andrew
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)	Jack, Michael
Davis, David (Boothferry)	Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Day, Stephen	Jenkin, Bernard
Deva, Nirj Joseph	Jessel, Toby
Devlin, Tim	Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Dickens, Geoffrey	Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Dorrell, Stephen	Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James	Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Dover, Den	Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Duncan, Alan	Key, Robert
Duncan-Smith, Iain	Kilfedder, Sir James
Dunn, Bob	King, Rt Hon Tom
Durant, Sir Anthony	Kirkhope, Timothy
Dykes, Hugh	Knapman, Roger
Eggar, Tim	Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Elletson, Harold	Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)	Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)	Knox, Sir David
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)	Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)	Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Evennett, David	Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Faber, David	Legg, Barry
Fabricant, Michael	Leigh, Edward
Fenner, Dame Peggy	Lennox-Boyd, Mark
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)	Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)

Lidington, David	Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Lightbown, David	Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter	Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Lloyd, Rt Hon Peter (Fareham)	Shersby, Michael
Lord, Michael	Sims, Roger
Luff, Peter	Skeet, Sir Trevor
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas	Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
MacGregor, Rt Hon John	Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
MacKay, Andrew	Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Maclean, David	Soames, Nicholas
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick	Speed, Sir Keith
Madel, Sir David	Spencer, Sir Derek
Maginnis, Ken	Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Maitland, Lady Olga	Spink, Dr Robert
Malone, Gerald	Spring, Richard
Mans, Keith	Sproat, Iain
Marland, Paul	Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Marlow, Tony	Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Marshall, John (Hendon S)	Steen, Anthony
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)	Stephen, Michael
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)	Stern, Michael
Mates, Michael	Stewart, Allan
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian	Streeter, Gary
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick	Sumberg, David
Mellor, Rt Hon David	Sweeney, Walter
Merchant, Piers	Sykes, John
Mills, Iain	Tapsell, Sir Peter
Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW)	Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Moate, Sir Roger	Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd)
Molyneaux, Rt Hon James	Taylor, John M. (Solihull)
Monro, Sir Hector	Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Montgomery, Sir Fergus	Temple-Morris, Peter
Moss, Malcolm	Thomason, Roy
Nelson, Anthony	Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Neubert, Sir Michael	Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Newton, Rt Hon Tony	Thurnham, Peter
Nicholls, Patrick	Townend, John (Bridlington)
Nicholson, David (Taunton)	Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)	Tracey, Richard
Norris, Steve	Tredinnick, David
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley	Trend, Michael
Oppenheim, Phillip	Trimble, David
Ottaway, Richard	Trotter, Neville
Page, Richard	Twinn, Dr Ian
Paice, James	Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Paisley, Rev Ian	Viggers, Peter
Patnick, Irvine	Walden, George
Patten, Rt Hon John	Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N)
Pawsey, James	Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth	Waller, Gary
Pickles, Eric	Ward, John
Porter, Barry (Wirral S)	Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Porter, David (Waveney)	Waterson, Nigel
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael	Watts, John
Rathbone, Tim	Wells, Bowen
Redwood, Rt Hon John	Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Renton, Rt Hon Tim	Whitney, Ray
Richards, Rod	Whittingdale, John
Riddick, Graham	Widdecombe, Ann
Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm	Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn	Wilkinson, John
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)	Willetts, David
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)	Wilshire, David
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)	Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)	Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Ross, William (E Londonderry)	Wolfson, Mark
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)	Yeo, Tim
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela	Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Ryder, Rt Hon Richard
Sackville, Tom	Tellers for the Noes
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim	Mr. Timothy Wood and Mr. Andrew Mitchell.
Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)

Question accordingly negatived.

Main Question put and agreed to.

Ordered, That Mr. James Cran, Mr. Charles Hendry, Mr. Andrew Hunter, Sir James Kilfedder, Mr. Eddie McGrady, Mr. Ken Maginnis, Mr. Jim Marshall, Mr. Peter Robinson, Mr. Clive Soley, Mr. Richard Spring, Mr. John D. Taylor, Mr. David Wilshire and Mr. Mark Wolfson be members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.—[Mr. Patnick]