§ Mr. BoatengI beg to move amendment No. 7, in page 39, line 42, after 'peace', insert 'or'.
We will be dividing the House on this amendment very shortly. It goes to the heart of our debates, dealing with a question that remains unaddressed by the Government—the independence of the judiciary, and the basis on which justices' clerks will be able and required to carry out their functions. Those functions, which lie at the heart of our justice system, are threatened by the Government's failure to produce an adequate safeguard for their independence.
The amendment seeks to make it clear in statute that there must be a guarantee of independence in relation to the three separate and important functions that a justices' clerk is called on to perform—the discharge of statutory duties, the giving of advice to the magistracy and the handling of individual cases. Those three essential elements must be protected. They were identified by the Lord Chief Justice and by a former Lord of Appeal in Ordinary, Lord Ackner, in the other place.
Those elements are threatened by a Government who, while introducing legislation that superimposes the powers of the Treasury on those of justices and their clerks, subordinate the interests of justice to those of the market and a Treasury determined to claw back the deficit created by the Government. As it stands, the legislation fails to preserve the necessary independence. There is nothing more important than that, and we shall return to the matter on Third Reading. There is nothing more important than the independence of the judiciary, and the independence of the justices' clerks in the context of the administration of justice.
We are not satisfied with the clause as it stands, we seek to strengthen it, and we shall divide the House in order to do so.
Mr. John M. TaylorThe amendment is interesting; it is called "or". The Opposition desire to put into clause 72, between the word "peace" and the word "in", the simple word "or". The very essence is or. The amendment sounds innocuous—[HON. MEMBERS: "He has not grasped it."] Yes, I have grasped it. It sounds innocuous, but I realise that it is not as disingenuous or innocent as it appears; actually, it is rather sinister.
Clause 72 deals with the independence of the justices' clerks and staff in relation to legal functions. As drafted, it specifies two important areas in which the justices' clerks are protected in the independence of their legal function. One, set out in subsection (2), consists of a catalogue of functions deriving from the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980. I shall not weary the House with that catalogue.
263 The other area of work in which the justices' clerks enjoy independence in their legal functions is in
giving advice to justices of the peace in an individual case".If the word "or" were inserted the provision would read:When exercising the functions specified in subsection (2) below or giving advice to justices of the peace or in an individual case".We should then have made an extra category that is legally independent, and in which nothing can be said. The justices' clerk would have an inviolate aura round him and could not be instructed in any way.In other words, we should have given legal independence and the ability to be clear of any instruction, in matters concerning the use of the car park—that is, legal independence concerning the use of the car park, and concerning security and accommodation arrangements, the stocking of the library and the location of the waste paper basket.
The amendment is misguided and, with its single word "or", it is a wrecking amendment. I reject it.
§ Mr. BoatengThe location of the waste paper basket is one thing that the Minister should know, because that is where he should put his whole rotten Bill. Upon that basis, and upon the basis of his woefully inadequate grasp of the amendment, we shall divide the House.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 258, Noes 291.
266| Division No. 285] | [9.58 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Chisholm, Malcolm |
| Adams, Mrs Irene | Church, Judith |
| Ainger, Nick | Clapham, Michael |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Clark, Dr David (South Shields) |
| Allen, Graham | Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) |
| Alton, David | Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Clelland, David |
| Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) | Clwyd, Mrs Ann |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Coffey, Ann |
| Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy | Cohen, Harry |
| Ashton, Joe | Connarty, Michael |
| Austin-Walker, John | Cook, Robin (Livingston) |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Corbett, Robin |
| Barnes, Harry | Corbyn, Jeremy |
| Barron, Kevin | Corston, Ms Jean |
| Battle, John | Cousins, Jim |
| Bayley, Hugh | Cummings, John |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Cunliffe, Lawrence |
| Beggs, Roy | Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) |
| Beith, Rt Hon A. J. | Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Bell, Stuart | Dafis, Cynog |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Darling, Alistair |
| Bennett, Andrew F. | Davidson, Ian |
| Benton, Joe | Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral) |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Berry, Roger | Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) |
| Betts, Clive | Denham, John |
| Blair, Tony | Dewar, Donald |
| Blunkett, David | Dixon, Don |
| Boateng, Paul | Donohoe, Brian H. |
| Boyes, Roland | Dowd, Jim |
| Bradley, Keith | Dunnachie, Jimmy |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth |
| Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) | Eagle, Ms Angela |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) | Eastham, Ken |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Enright, Derek |
| Burden, Richard | Etherington, Bill |
| Byers, Stephen | Evans, John (St Helens N) |
| Callaghan, Jim | Fatchett, Derek |
| Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Fisher, Mark |
| Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Flynn, Paul |
| Canavan, Dennis | Foster, Rt Hon Derek |
| Cann, Jamie | Foster, Don (Bath) |
| Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry) | Foulkes, George |
| Fraser, John | Martlew, Eric |
| Fyfe, Maria | Maxton, John |
| Galbraith, Sam | Meacher, Michael |
| Galloway, George | Meale, Alan |
| Gapes, Mike | Michael, Alun |
| Gerrard, Neil | Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) |
| Godman, Dr Norman A. | Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute) |
| Godsiff, Roger | Milburn, Alan |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Miller, Andrew |
| Gordon, Mildred | Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) |
| Graham, Thomas | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
| Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) | Moonie, Dr Lewis |
| Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Morgan, Rhodri |
| Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Morley, Elliot |
| Grocott, Bruce | Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe) |
| Gunnell, John | Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
| Hain, Peter | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Hall, Mike | Mudie, George |
| Hanson, David | Mullin, Chris |
| Harman, Ms Harriet | Murphy, Paul |
| Harvey, Nick | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
| Henderson, Doug | O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire) |
| Heppell, John | O'Brien, William (Normanton) |
| Hill, Keith (Streatham) | Olner, William |
| Hinchliffe, David | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Hodge, Margaret | Parry, Robert |
| Hoey, Kate | Patchett, Terry |
| Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) | Pendry, Tom |
| Home Robertson, John | Pickthall, Colin |
| Hood, Jimmy | Pike, Peter L. |
| Hoon, Geoffrey | Pope, Greg |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| Hoyle, Doug | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) | Purchase, Ken |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport E) | Radice, Giles |
| Hutton, John | Raynsford, Nick |
| Ingram, Adam | Redmond, Martin |
| Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) | Reid, Dr John |
| Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) | Rendel, David |
| Jamieson, David | Robertson, George (Hamilton) |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) | Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW) |
| Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys MÔn) | Roche, Mrs. Barbara |
| Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) | Rogers, Allan |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) | Rooker, Jeff |
| Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) | Rooney, Terry |
| Jowell, Tessa | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Ross, William (E Londonderry) |
| Keen, Alan | Rowlands, Ted |
| Kennedy, Charles (Ross, C&S) | Ruddock, Joan |
| Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Khabra, Piara S. | Sheerman, Barry |
| Kilfoyle, Peter | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil (Islwyn) | Simpson, Alan |
| Lestor, Joan (Eccles) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Lewis, Terry | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| Litherland, Robert | Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury) |
| Livingstone, Ken | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Soley, Clive |
| Llwyd, Elfyn | Spearing, Nigel |
| Loyden, Eddie | Spellar, John |
| Lynne, Ms Liz | Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) |
| McAllion, John | Steel, Rt Hon Sir David |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Steinberg, Gerry |
| McCartney, Ian | Stevenson, George |
| Macdonald, Calum | Straw, Jack |
| McFall, John | Sutcliffe, Gerry |
| McKelvey, William | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Mackinlay, Andrew | Timms, Stephen |
| Maclennan, Robert | Tipping, Paddy |
| McMaster, Gordon | Turner, Dennis |
| MacShane, Denis | Tyler, Paul |
| McWilliam, John | Vaz, Keith |
| Madden, Max | Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold |
| Mahon, Alice | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Mandelson, Peter | Wareing, Robert N |
| Marek, Dr John | Watson, Mike |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) | Wright, Dr Tony |
| Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Wilson, Brian | |
| Winnick, David | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Worthington, Tony | Mr. Jon Owen Jones and |
| Wray, Jimmy | Mr. Eric Illsley. |
| NOES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Dickens, Geoffrey |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Alexander, Richard | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Dover, Den |
| Allason, Rupert (Torbay) | Duncan, Alan |
| Amess, David | Duncan-Smith, Iain |
| Ancram, Michael | Dunn, Bob |
| Arbuthnot, James | Durant, Sir Anthony |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Dykes, Hugh |
| Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Eggar, Tim |
| Ashby, David | Elletson, Harold |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) |
| Atkins, Robert | Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) |
| Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) | Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Evans, Roger (Monmouth) |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) | Evennett, David |
| Baldry, Tony | Faber, David |
| Banks, Matthew (Southport) | Fabricant, Michael |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
| Bates, Michael | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Batiste, Spencer | Fishburn, Dudley |
| Bellingham, Henry | Forman, Nigel |
| Bendall, Vivian | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Forth, Eric |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) |
| Body, Sir Richard | Freeman, Rt Hon Roger |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | French, Douglas |
| Booth, Hartley | Fry, Sir Peter |
| Boswell, Tim | Gale, Roger |
| Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Gallie, Phil |
| Bowden, Sir Andrew | Gardiner, Sir George |
| Bowis, John | Garnier, Edward |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Gill, Christopher |
| Brandreth, Gyles | Gillan, Cheryl |
| Brazier, Julian | Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Gorman, Mrs Teresa |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) | Gorst, Sir John |
| Browning, Mrs. Angela | Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW) |
| Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
| Budgen, Nicholas | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Burns, Simon | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) |
| Burt, Alistair | Grylls, Sir Michael |
| Butcher, John | Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn |
| Butler, Peter | Hague, William |
| Butterfill, John | Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie |
| Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hannam, Sir John |
| Carrington, Matthew | Hargreaves, Andrew |
| Carttiss, Michael | Harris, David |
| Cash, William | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Hawkins, Nick |
| Churchill, Mr | Hawksley, Warren |
| Clappison, James | Hayes, Jerry |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Heald, Oliver |
| Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Hendry, Charles |
| Coe, Sebastian | Hicks, Robert |
| Colvin, Michael | Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L. |
| Congdon, David | Hill, James (Southampton Test) |
| Conway, Derek | Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) | Horam, John |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Cope, Rt Hon Sir John | Howard, Rt Hon Michael |
| Cormack, Patrick | Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) |
| Cran, James | Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) | Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk) |
| Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) | Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W) |
| Davies, Quentin (Stamford) | Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) |
| Davis, David (Boothferry) | Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) |
| Day, Stephen | Hunter, Andrew |
| Deva, Nirj Joseph | Jack, Michael |
| Devlin, Tim | Jackson, Robert (Wantage) |
| Jenkin, Bernard | Robinson, Mark (Somerton) |
| Jessel, Toby | Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) |
| Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr) | Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela |
| Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine | Ryder, Rt Hon Richard |
| Key, Robert | Sackville, Tom |
| Kilfedder, Sir James | Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim |
| King, Rt Hon Tom | Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Knapman, Roger | Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian |
| Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Knight, Greg (Derby N) | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
| Knox, Sir David | Shersby, Michael |
| Kynoch, George (Kincardine) | Sims, Roger |
| Lait, Mrs Jacqui | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Lawrence, Sir Ivan | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Legg, Barry | Soames, Nicholas |
| Leigh, Edward | Speed, Sir Keith |
| Lennox-Boyd, Mark | Spencer, Sir Derek |
| Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset) |
| Lidington, David | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Lightbown, David | Spink, Dr Robert |
| Lilley, Rt Hon Peter | Spring, Richard |
| Lloyd, Rt Hon Peter (Fareham) | Sproat, Iain |
| Lord, Michael | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
| Luff, Peter | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas | Steen, Anthony |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Stephen, Michael |
| MacKay, Andrew | Stern, Michael |
| Maclean, David | Stewart, Allan |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Streeter, Gary |
| McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick | Sumberg, David |
| Madel, Sir David | Sweeney, Walter |
| Maitland, Lady Olga | Sykes, John |
| Malone, Gerald | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Mans, Keith | Taylor, Ian (Esher) |
| Marland, Paul | Taylor, John M. (Solihull) |
| Marlow, Tony | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Thomason, Roy |
| Mates, Michael | Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V) |
| Merchant, Piers | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Mills, Iain | Thurnham, Peter |
| Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) |
| Moate, Sir Roger | Tracey, Richard |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Tredinnick, David |
| Moss, Malcolm | Trend, Michael |
| Needham, Rt Hon Richard | Trotter, Neville |
| Nelson, Anthony | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Neubert, Sir Michael | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Viggers, Peter |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Waldegrave, Rt Hon William |
| Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Walden, George |
| Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
| Norris, Steve | Ward, John |
| Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Oppenheim, Phillip | Waterson, Nigel |
| Ottaway, Richard | Watts, John |
| Page, Richard | Wells, Bowen |
| Paice, James | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Patnick, Irvine | Whitney, Ray |
| Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Whittingdale, John |
| Pawsey, James | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Wiggin, Sir Jerry |
| Pickles, Eric | Wilkinson, John |
| Porter, Barry (Wirral S) | Willetts, David |
| Porter, David (Waveney) | Wilshire, David |
| Portillo, Rt Hon Michael | Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) |
| Rathbone, Tim | Wolfson, Mark |
| Redwood, Rt Hon John | Wood, Timothy |
| Renton, Rt Hon Tim | Yeo, Tim |
| Richards, Rod | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| Riddick, Graham | |
| Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Robathan, Andrew | Mr. Sydney Chapman and |
| Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn | Mr. Andrew Mitchell. |
| Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ It being after Ten o'clock, further consideration of the Bill stood adjourned.
267
§
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 14 (Exempted business),
That, at this day's sitting, the Police and Magistrates' Courts Bill [Lords] may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. Kirkhope.]
§ Question agreed to.
§ As amended (in the Standing Committee), again considered.