§ Lords amendment: No. 2, in page 10, line 47, leave out ("24") and insert ("23")
§ Mr. Gwilym JonesI beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.
This is purely a drafting amendment to clause 18, which incorporates in the Bill certain provisions of the Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act 1847. Subsection (2) lists the provisions that are not to be incorporated, including section 24 of the 1847 Act. However, section 24 will be repealed by the Statute Law (Repeals) Bill. The amendment simply ensures that clause 18(2) of the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill is consistent with the changes that will be affected by the repealing legislation.
§ Mr. MorganMay I ask the Minister a question about the return to the legislation of section 24 of the Harbours, Docks, and Piers Clauses Act 1847? What exactly will be the impact of omitting it from the omission, as it were?
My question relates very closely to the substance of our last debate. I understand that, as a result of the change, Customs and Excise would be empowered to examine even pleasure vessels moving in and out of Cardiff bay. As has been pointed out, the distinction that existed back in 1847—the date of the Act that is being incorporated in part, although not as a whole, in the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill—no longer exists. I refer to the distinction between yachts and pleasure craft, and other ships.
Is it being suggested that drug-running yuppies are using yachts to get in and out, and that Customs and Excise want to reserve the power to board those yachts to find out whether they are carrying illicit cargoes? If the Bill had not been amended, that would be covered, and Customs and Excise would not have lost the power conferred by the 1847 Act. Has this concern arisen suddenly, or is there some other explanation for the late change in the Bill?
§ 7 pm
§ The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Tony Newton)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It may be convenient if I tell the House—indeed, I mentioned it last week in the business statement, referring to the possibility that messages from the House of Lords would need to be 401 considered—that it is proposed that Lords messages relating to the British Railways Bill be considered after the conclusion of this business.
§ Mr. Ron DaviesFurther to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Has the Leader of the House had an opportunity to convey that information to the shadow Leader of the House? Obviously, it was important for the Opposition to be informed of this development.
We are very disappointed that important proceedings on the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill have been interrupted by this move, which clearly derives from the Government's inability to deliver their majority in either House. Will time be available at the conclusion of our proceedings on the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill for a debate—albeit brief—on the message from the House of Lords?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI should point out that the time is coming out of that allocated by the guillotine motion to the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill debate.
§ Mr. NewtonFurther to those points of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It will, I think, be visible that I had asked for the shadow Leader of the House to be informed of our intention to take this business; but I wanted to let the House know as soon as possible.
There is no question of interrupting proceedings on the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill. It is proposed that the Lords messages be taken at the conclusion of those proceedings. The guillotine motion that the House passed yesterday provides time for the consideration of Lords messages.
§ Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South)Further to the points of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is important. The Leader of the House has, in effect, used a point of order to make a business statement. There was no indication on the screens that such a statement was to be made. Hon. Members who would have wanted to be present have therefore been denied the opportunity. The change in tonight's business should have been shown on every screen in the House, in the ordinary way. The failure to announce it is utterly disgraceful.
§ Mrs. Margaret Beckett (Derby, South)Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As the Lord President said, his office attempted to notify us; unfortunately, that happened only about 30 seconds ago. I did not realise that the right hon. Gentleman would be on his feet almost as soon as I had put the phone down.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) has made an important point. I do not wish to take up the House's time in a guillotined debate, but it is extremely important for all hon. Members to have every opportunity to learn what is likely to happen. I hope that every attempt will be made to communicate that to them.
§ Mr. NewtonI assure the right hon. Lady that every attempt will be made to act along the lines that have been suggested.
§ Mr. Gwilym JonesLet me reply to the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan). This is purely a drafting amendment to ensure that the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill is consistent with the repealing legislation.
§ Question put, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment:-
§ The House divided: Ayes 291, Noes 133.
404| Division No. 391] | [7.04 pm |
| AYES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) |
| Alexander, Richard | Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Evans, Roger (Monmouth) |
| Allason, Rupert (Torbay) | Evennett, David |
| Alton, David | Fabricant, Michael |
| Amess, David | Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas |
| Arbuthnot, James | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Fishburn, Dudley |
| Ashby, David | Forman, Nigel |
| Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Forth, Eric |
| Atkins, Robert | Foster, Don (Bath) |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) | Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) |
| Baldry, Tony | Freeman, Rt Hon Roger |
| Banks, Matthew (Southport) | French, Douglas |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Fry, Peter |
| Bates, Michael | Gale, Roger |
| Batiste, Spencer | Gallie, Phil |
| Beith, Rt Hon A. J. | Gardiner, Sir George |
| Bellingham, Henry | Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan |
| Bendall, Vivian | Garnier, Edward |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Gill, Christopher |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Gorst, John |
| Booth, Hartley | Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW) |
| Boswell, Tim | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
| Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) |
| Bowden, Andrew | Grylls, Sir Michael |
| Bowis, John | Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Hague, William |
| Brandreth, Gyles | Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom) |
| Brazier, Julian | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Bright, Graham | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Hannam, Sir John |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) | Hargreaves, Andrew |
| Browning, Mrs. Angela | Harris, David |
| Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Harvey, Nick |
| Burns, Simon | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Burt, Alistair | Hawkins, Nick |
| Butler, Peter | Hawksley, Warren |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Hayes, Jerry |
| Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry) | Heald, Oliver |
| Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Carrington, Matthew | Hendry, Charles |
| Cash, William | Hicks, Robert |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L. |
| Clappison, James | Hill, James (Southampton Test) |
| Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif) | Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) |
| Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Horam, John |
| Coe, Sebastian | Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Colvin, Michael | Howard, Rt Hon Michael |
| Congdon, David | Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) | Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W) |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) |
| Cope, Rt Hon Sir John | Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) |
| Cormack, Patrick | Hunter, Andrew |
| Couchman, James | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Cran, James | Jack, Michael |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) | Jackson, Robert (Wantage) |
| Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) | Jenkin, Bernard |
| Davies, Quentin (Stamford) | Jessel, Toby |
| Davis, David (Boothferry) | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Deva, Nirj Joseph | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Devlin, Tim | Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) |
| Dicks, Terry | Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Dover, Den | Key, Robert |
| Duncan, Alan | Kilfedder, Sir James |
| Duncan-Smith, Iain | King, Rt Hon Tom |
| Dunn, Bob | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Durant, Sir Anthony | Knapman, Roger |
| Dykes, Hugh | Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) |
| Elletson, Harold | Knight, Greg (Derby N) |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) | Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela |
| Knox, Sir David | Ryder, Rt Hon Richard |
| Kynoch, George (Kincardine) | Sackville, Tom |
| Lait, Mrs Jacqui | Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim |
| Lang, Rt Hon Ian | Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Lawrence, Sir Ivan | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Legg, Barry | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Leigh, Edward | Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian |
| Lennox-Boyd, Mark | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Lidington, David | Shersby, Michael |
| Lightbown, David | Sims, Roger |
| Lilley, Rt Hon Peter | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Lord, Michael | Soames, Nicholas |
| Luff, Peter | Spencer, Sir Derek |
| Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas | Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset) |
| Lynne, Ms Liz | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Spink, Dr Robert |
| MacKay, Andrew | Spring, Richard |
| Maclean, David | Sproat, Iain |
| Maclennan, Robert | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
| McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Maddock, Mrs Diana | Steen, Anthony |
| Madel, David | Stephen, Michael |
| Maitland, Lady Olga | Stern, Michael |
| Malone, Gerald | Stewart, Allan |
| Mans, Keith | Streeter, Gary |
| Marland, Paul | Sumberg, David |
| Marlow, Tony | Sweeney, Walter |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Sykes, John |
| Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Taylor, Ian (Esher) |
| Mates, Michael | Taylor, John M. (Solihull) |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Merchant, Piers | Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Milligan, Stephen | Thomason, Roy |
| Mills, Iain | Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V) |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) | Thurnham, Peter |
| Moate, Sir Roger | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) |
| Needham, Richard | Tracey, Richard |
| Neubert, Sir Michael | Tredinnick, David |
| Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Trend, Michael |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Trotter, Neville |
| Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Tyler, Paul |
| Norris, Steve | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley | Viggers, Peter |
| Oppenheim, Phillip | Waldegrave, Rt Hon William |
| Ottaway, Richard | Walden, George |
| Page, Richard | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
| Paice, James | Wallace, James |
| Patnick, lrvine | Waller, Gary |
| Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Ward, John |
| Pawsey, James | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Waterson, Nigel |
| Pickles, Eric | Watts, John |
| Porter, David (Waveney) | Whitney, Ray |
| Portillo, Rt Hon Michael | Whittingdale, John |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Rathbone, Tim | Wilkinson, John |
| Redwood, Rt Hon John | Willetts, David |
| Rendel, David | Wilshire, David |
| Renton, Rt Hon Tim | Wolfson, Mark |
| Richards, Rod | Wood, Timothy |
| Riddick, Graham | Yeo, Tim |
| Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| Robathan, Andrew | |
| Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Robinson, Mark (Somerton) | Mr. Sydney Chapman and |
| Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) | Mr. Derek Conway. |
| NOES | |
| Adams, Mrs Irene | Ashton, Joe |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Barnes, Harry |
| Allen, Graham | Bayley, Hugh |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Benn, Rt Hon Tony |
| Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) | Bennett, Andrew F. |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Livingstone, Ken |
| Betts, Clive | Loyden, Eddie |
| Blunkett, David | McAvoy, Thomas |
| Bradley, Keith | McFall, John |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) | McKelvey, William |
| Burden, Richard | Mackinlay, Andrew |
| Byers, Stephen | McMaster, Gordon |
| Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | McNamara, Kevin |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Madden, Max |
| Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Marek, Dr John |
| Cann, Jamie | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) |
| Coffey, Ann | Martin, Michael J. (Springbum) |
| Connarty, Michael | Martlew, Eric |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Maxton, John |
| Corbett, Robin | Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Milburn, Alan |
| Corston, Ms Jean | Miller, Andrew |
| Cryer, Bob | Morgan, Rhodri |
| Cummings, John | Morley, Elliot |
| Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) | Murphy, Paul |
| Dafis, Cynog | O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire) |
| Darling, Alistair | O'Hara, Edward |
| Davidson, Ian | Parry, Robert |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Patchett, Terry |
| Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) | Pendry, Tom |
| Dixon, Don | Pike, Peter L. |
| Donohoe, Brian H. | Pope, Greg |
| Dunnachie, Jimmy | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Eagle, Ms Angela | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E) |
| Enright, Derek | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Etherington, Bill | Purchase, Ken |
| Evans, John (St Helens N) | Radice, Giles |
| Flynn, Paul | Raynsford, Nick |
| Foster, Rt Hon Derek | Reid, Dr John |
| Fraser, John | Roche, Mrs. Barbara |
| Garrett, John | Rogers, Allan |
| Gerrard, Neil | Rooker, Jeff |
| Godman, Dr Norman A. | Rooney, Terry |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Rowlands, Ted |
| Gordon, Mildred | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Gould, Bryan | Sheerman, Barry |
| Graham, Thomas | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Simpson, Alan |
| Hanson, David | Skinner, Dennis |
| Hinchliffe, David | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
| Home Robertson, John | Spearing, Nigel |
| Hood, Jimmy | Spellar, John |
| Hoon, Geoffrey | Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
| Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) | Turner, Dennis |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport E) | Warden, Gareth (Gower) |
| Hutton, John | Wareing, Robert N |
| Illsley, Eric | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
| Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) | Wise, Audrey |
| Janner, Greville | Worthington, Tony |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Wray, Jimmy |
| Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Khabra, Piara S. | |
| Kilfoyle, Peter | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil (Islwyn) | Mr. Jon Owen Jones and |
| Leighton, Ron | Mr. Peter Hain. |
| Lewis, Terry |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Mr. Ron DaviesOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The House faces an appalling situation tonight. The Government are in a shambles. They have been defeated for the third time in the House of Lords. Now they have had to come here and disrupt a debate on the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill, which is of immense importance to the people of Cardiff—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I must put the question on Lords amendment No. 3, and inform the House that it involves privilege.
§ Lords amendment: No. 3, after clause 21, to insert the following new clause—