§
Amendment made: No. 47, in page 2, line 4, leave out from first 'of to 'and' in line 5 insert
'the Treaty establishing the European Community'.—[Mr. Andrew Smith.]
§ Mr. DorrellI beg to move amendment No. 44, in page 2, line 8, leave out 'the Commons' and insert 'each'.
§ Madam Deputy SpeakerI suggest that it would be convenient for the House to discuss at the same time Government amendment No. 45.
§ Mr. DorrellThe effect of amendment No. 44 is to amend clause 3, which was accepted by the Government in Committee. Clause 3, the House will remember, was originally new clause I in Committee. It provides an opportunity for the House to consider and vote on the report submitted by the Governor of the Bank of England on the work of the European system of central banks.
The clause as drafted provides that that vote shall take place only in this House. It is conventional that when votes are called for on free-standing resolutions in one House, the same opportunity is provided to the other House. The only normal exception to that process arises in the context of supply procedures. The new clause does not relate to supply procedures and the Government think it would be 244 appropriate to afford a similar opportunity to another place to have a vote on the subject contained in clause 3 of the Bill, as amended.
§ Mr. George RobertsonThese amendments are not as simple and uncontroversial as the otherwise plausible Financial Secretary would have the House believe, and I will explain why. Earlier today, the Government accepted amendment No. 2, and Ministers have been perambulating around television studios telling the world that it did not matter, that what happened was of no great consequence and that the protocol should not have been there in the first place.
It is as though the Foreign Secretary was holding a grenade in his hand and this afternoon it went off. He wiggles his hand about saying, "I did not need that hand, anyway." The Government are trying by their generosity to tell the British people that what happened was of no real consequence, and in the amendments now before the House they are at it again.
Amendment No. 44 would, says the Financial Secretary, simply give the other House the right to debate the report of the Governor of the Bank of England and an opportunity, equal to that of this House, to vote on that report. Clause 3 is historic. This is the first time in British history that the Governor of the Bank of England will be required to report to this House. Not only is that a first, but the Government have accepted a provision that will oblige Parliament to have a vote on the Governor's report. Clearly, it is not an insignificant feature.
As the Financial Secretary points out, the normal exception to the convention in this House on measures that are considered by one House and not by the other is in relation to finance. He uses the word "supply," but we know that that relates to finance, and there is a good and proper tradition for that. We are talking of a report by the Governor of the Bank of England to Parliament on questions of finance and the discharge of his responsibilities in relation to economic and monetary union and the European central bank.
§ Mr. DorrellThe hon. Gentleman is making an important mistake. The principles of supply would remain unaffected by the treaty. The responsibilities of the Governor concern monetary policy, and if we move to stage 3 of the treaty, any vote on monetary policy will be governed by the standard procedures of the House and will not be part of supply.
§ Mr. RobertsonThe last time I was accused of making an important mistake was when the Minister of State told me that my amendment, then called amendment No. 27, would wreck the Maastricht treaty. So I treat the authoritative words of a Treasury Minister with a degree of scepticism.
Although the Minister talks of the precise details of the convention, the fact remains that we are concerned with monetary policy and the discharge of the responsibilities of the Governor of the Bank of England in relation to the European system of central banks. So it should remain, as a matter of principle, in the province of the House of Commons and not necessarily the House of Lords. Accordingly, I recommend my hon. Friends to oppose amendment No. 44.
Amendment No. 45 is linked with that amendment and, as a Government amendment, will be put to a vote. It, too, looks simple, equating the responsibilities of the House of 245 Commons and the House of Lords. When we get to the vote arising out of what was known as new clause 74, it will be the final cliffhanger vote of the whole ratification procedure which, perhaps unfortunately, I described as a ticking bomb. My description may have been unfortunate, not because it will explode in the Government's face but because such explosive similes are not in the best taste, especially in recent times.
We are being told that that process will prevent a Lords amendment from returning to the House. Hon. Members have been told, sotto voce through the usual channels, "It is simply George seeing shadows." It is said that I, of all people, want to detain the House further to consider Lords amendments before ratification. If there is any one person in the House of Commons who does not intend to detain the House for any longer than necessary on the European Communities (Amendment) Bill, it is me. It is absurd to suggest otherwise.
7.30 pm
The Government's intentions are clear. The Bill now provides for a vote in the House of Commons that will take place—as the Foreign Secretary said—between Royal Assent on the ratification Bill and the actual ratification and notification of ratification. That is simple and straightforward—this afternoon the Foreign Secretary laid it on the line for Conservative rebels and told them what they would be voting for. I have made it clear in a previous debate that the amendment—to whichever motion the Government table—will explicitly refuse the Government the right to send the articles of ratification to Rome until they have signed the social chapter.
If the Tory rebels care to believe the Chancellor of the Exchequer—who said in the Budget debate that we would never sign the social chapter—they can vote with us in the knowledge that the amendment will wreck the Maastricht treaty. It will stop it in its tracks, not just for this country but for the whole of Europe. I hold the contrary view and believe that the Government would not dream of taking the country into the wilderness which that would represent by destroying the treaty for everyone. However, that will be the issue on that vote.
Now, the Government are saying that the House of Lords will have an equal right to vote. Is the Minister of State to be allowed to reply to the debate? The Government do not usually allow the Minister of State to open or reply to debates any longer—he is to resign the moment that our proceedings are over. However, if he is allowed to reply, I should like him to answer a simple question for the House: what happens if the House of Commons votes for our amendment and the House of Lords does not? What will happen at the end of the ratification process? What would the constitutional position be? There is nothing in the constitution of the United Kingdom or in "Erskine May" to deal with such a situation. We shall be moving from a relatively straightforward position—with the House able to make a decision on whether to ratify a treaty that does not include the social chapter—to one that places the Government in the dilemma of having to sign the social chapter or walk away from the treaty. Therefore, I recommend that, when we come to it, my hon. Friends should vote against amendment No. 45.
§ Sir Teddy TaylorIs not there a double lock in that both Houses have to approve the measure? I am sure that it will not be a problem—it is a double lock or additional safeguard.
§ Mr. RobertsonThe hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir. T. Taylor) usually sees more conspiracies and ghosts than even I do. However, my considered view is that. the Government are trying to avoid the House of Commons having to come to a conclusive decision on the issue. Anyone who has watched the Government meandering around the labyrinth that my right hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) described so eloquently earlier will come to the same conclusion as I have, rather than any other more generous conclusion. I believe that, when we reach it, the House should vote against amendment No. 45.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 305, Noes 256.
249| Division No. 257] | [7.33 pm |
| AYES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Congdon, David |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Conway, Derek |
| Alexander, Richard | Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Coombs, Simon (Swindon) |
| Alton, David | Cope, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Amess, David | Cormack, Patrick |
| Ancram, Michael | Couchman, James |
| Arbuthnot, James | Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) |
| Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Dafis, Cynog |
| Ashby, David | Davies, Quentin (Stamford) |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Davis, David (Boothferry) |
| Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) | Day, Stephen |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Deva, Nirj Joseph |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) | Devlin, Tim |
| Baldry, Tony | Dickens, Geoffrey |
| Banks, Matthew (Southport) | Dicks, Terry |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Bates, Michael | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Batiste, Spencer | Dover, Den |
| Beith, Rt Hon A. J. | Duncan, Alan |
| Bellingham, Henry | Duncan-Smith, Iain |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Dunn, Bob |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Durant, Sir Anthony |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Dykes, Hugh |
| Body, Sir Richard | Eggar, Tim |
| Booth, Hartley | Elletson, Harold |
| Boswell, Tim | Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia | Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) |
| Bowden, Andrew | Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) |
| Bowis, John | Evans, Roger (Monmouth) |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Evennett, David |
| Brandreth, Gyles | Faber, David |
| Brazier, Julian | Fabricant, Michael |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
| Browning, Mrs. Angela | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Fishburn, Dudley |
| Budgen, Nicholas | Forman, Nigel |
| Burns, Simon | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Burt, Alistair | Forth, Eric |
| Butler, Peter | Foster, Don (Bath) |
| Butterfill, John | Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) |
| Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Freeman, Roger |
| Carrington, Matthew | French, Douglas |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Fry, Peter |
| Chapman, Sydney | Gale, Roger |
| Churchill, Mr | Gallie, Phil |
| Clappison, James | Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan |
| Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Garnier, Edward |
| Coe, Sebastian | Gillan, Cheryl |
| Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair | Malone, Gerald |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Mans, Keith |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Marland, Paul |
| Gorst, John | Marlow, Tony |
| Grant, Sir Anthony (Cambs SW) | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
| Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) | Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) | Mates, Michael |
| Grylls, Sir Michael | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn | Merchant, Piers |
| Hague, William | Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute) |
| Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom) | Milligan, Stephen |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Mills, Iain |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) |
| Hannam, Sir John | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Hargreaves, Andrew | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Harris, David | Moss, Malcolm |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Nelson, Anthony |
| Hawkins, Nick | Neubert, Sir Michael |
| Hayes, Jerry | Newton, Rt Hon Tony |
| Heald, Oliver | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Heath, Rt Hon Sir Edward | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) |
| Hendry, Charles | Norris, Steve |
| Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael | Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley |
| Hicks, Robert | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L. | Ottaway, Richard |
| Hill, James (Southampton Test) | Page, Richard |
| Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) | Paice, James |
| Horam, John | Patnick, Irvine |
| Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Howard, Rt Hon Michael | Pawsey, James |
| Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) | Pickles, Eric |
| Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) | Porter, Barry (Wirral S) |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark) | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) | Rathbone, Tim |
| Hunter, Andrew | Redwood, John |
| Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas | Renton, Rt Hon Tim |
| Jack, Michael | Richards, Rod |
| Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Riddick, Graham |
| Johnston, Sir Russell | Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Robathan, Andrew |
| Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Môn) | Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) |
| Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine | Robinson, Mark (Somerton) |
| Kennedy, Charles (Ross, C&S) | Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) |
| Key, Robert | Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) |
| Kilfedder, Sir James | Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela |
| King, Rt Hon Tom | Ryder, Rt Hon Richard |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Sackville, Tom |
| Knapman, Roger | Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim |
| Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) | Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Knight, Greg (Derby N) | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) | Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian |
| Knox, David | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Kynoch, George (Kincardine) | Shersby, Michael |
| Lait, Mrs Jacqui | Sims, Roger |
| Lamont, Rt Hon Norman | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
| Lang, Rt Hon Ian | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Leigh, Edward | Soames, Nicholas |
| Lennox-Boyd, Mark | Speed, Sir Keith |
| Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Spencer, Sir Derek |
| Lidington, David | Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset) |
| Lightbown, David | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Lilley, Rt Hon Peter | Spink, Dr Robert |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Spring, Richard |
| Llwyd, Elfyn | Sproat, Iain |
| Lord, Michael | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
| Luff, Peter | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas | Steel, Rt Hon Sir David |
| Lynne, Ms Liz | Steen, Anthony |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Stephen, Michael |
| MacKay, Andrew | Stern, Michael |
| Maclean, David | Stewart, Allan |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Streeter, Gary |
| Madel, David | Sumberg, David |
| Maitland, Lady Olga | Sweeney, Walter |
| Major, Rt Hon John | Sykes, John |
| Taylor, Ian (Esher) | Ward, John |
| Taylor, John M. (Solihull) | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Taylor, Matthew (Truro) | Waterson, Nigel |
| Temple-Morris, Peter | Watts, John |
| Thomason, Roy | Wells, Bowen |
| Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V) | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) | Whitney, Ray |
| Thornton, Sir Malcolm | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Thurnham, Peter | Wiggin, Sir Jerry |
| Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Tracey, Richard | Willetts, David |
| Tredinnick, David | Wilshire, David |
| Trend, Michael | Wolfson, Mark |
| Trotter, Neville | Wood, Timothy |
| Twinn, Dr Ian | Yeo, Tim |
| Tyler, Paul | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Viggers, Peter | |
| Waldegrave, Rt Hon William | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Walden, George | Mr. Robert G. Hughes and |
| Wallace, James | Mr. Andrew Mitchell |
| Waller, Gary |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Cryer, Bob |
| Adams, Mrs Irene | Cummings, John |
| Ainger, Nick | Cunliffe, Lawrence |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) |
| Allen, Graham | Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Darling, Alistair |
| Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) | Davidson, Ian |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral) |
| Ashton, Joe | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Austin-Walker, John | Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'I) |
| Barnes, Harry | Denham, John |
| Barron, Kevin | Dewar, Donald |
| Battle, John | Dixon, Don |
| Bayley, Hugh | Dobson, Frank |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Donohoe, Brian H. |
| Bell, Stuart | Dowd, Jim |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Dunnachie, Jimmy |
| Bennett, Andrew F. | Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth |
| Benton, Joe | Eagle, Ms Angela |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Eastham, Ken |
| Berry, Dr. Roger | Enright, Derek |
| Betts, Clive | Etherington, Bill |
| Blair, Tony | Ewing, Mrs Margaret |
| Blunkett, David | Fatchett, Derek |
| Boateng, Paul | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Boyce, Jimmy | Fisher, Mark |
| Boyes, Roland | Flynn, Paul |
| Bradley, Keith | Foster, Rt Hon Derek |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Foulkes, George |
| Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) | Fraser, John |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) | Fyfe, Maria |
| Burden, Richard | Galbraith, Sam |
| Byers, Stephen | Galloway, George |
| Callaghan, Jim | Gapes, Mike |
| Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Garrett, John |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | George, Bruce |
| Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Gerrard, Neil |
| Canavan, Dennis | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Cann, Jamie | Godman, Dr Norman A. |
| Chisholm, Malcolm | Godsiff, Roger |
| Clapham, Michael | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Graham, Thomas |
| Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) |
| Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) |
| Clelland, David | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Grocott, Bruce |
| Coffey, Ann | Gunnell, John |
| Cohen, Harry | Hain, Peter |
| Connarty, Michael | Hall, Mike |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Hanson, David |
| Cook, Robin (Livingston) | Hardy, Peter |
| Corbett, Robin | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Henderson, Doug |
| Corston, Ms Jean | Heppell, John |
| Cousins, Jim | Hill, Keith (Streatham) |
| Cox, Tom | Hinchliffe, David |
| Hoey, Kate | Olner, William |
| Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) | O'Neill, Martin |
| Home Robertson, John | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Hood, Jimmy | Parry, Robert |
| Hoon, Geoffrey | Pendry, Tom |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Pickthall, Colin |
| Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) | Pike, Peter L. |
| Hoyle, Doug | Pope, Greg |
| Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport E) | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E) |
| Hume, John | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| Hutton, John | Prescott, John |
| Illsley, Eric | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Ingram, Adam | Purchase, Ken |
| Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) | Radice, Giles |
| Jamieson, David | Randall, Stuart |
| Janner, Greville | Raynsford, Nick |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) | Redmond, Martin |
| Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) | Reid, Dr John |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) | Robertson, George (Hamilton) |
| Jowell, Tessa | Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW) |
| Keen, Alan | Roche, Mrs. Barbara |
| Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) | Rogers, Allan |
| Khabra, Piara S. | Rooker, Jeff |
| Leighton, Ron | Rooney, Terry |
| Lestor, Joan (Eccles) | Rowlands, Ted |
| Lewis, Terry | Ruddock, Joan |
| Litherland, Robert | Salmond, Alex |
| Livingstone, Ken | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Sheerman, Barry |
| Loyden, Eddie | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| McAllion, John | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Short, Clare |
| McCartney, Ian | Simpson, Alan |
| Macdonald, Calum | Skinner, Dennis |
| McFall, John | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| McGrady, Eddie | Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury) |
| McKelvey, William | Smith, Rt Hon John (M'kl'ds E) |
| Mackinlay, Andrew | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
| McLeish, Henry | Snape, Peter |
| McMaster, Gordon | Spearing, Nigel |
| McNamara, Kevin | Spellar, John |
| McWilliam, John | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Madden, Max | Stevenson, George |
| Mahon, Alice | Stott, Roger |
| Mandelson, Peter | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
| Marek, Dr John | Straw, Jack |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) | Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck) |
| Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) | Tipping, Paddy |
| Martlew, Eric | Turner, Dennis |
| Maxton, John | Vaz, Keith |
| Meacher, Michael | Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold |
| Meale, Alan | Walley, Joan |
| Michael, Alun | Warden, Gareth (Gower) |
| Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) | Wareing, Robert N |
| Milburn, Alan | Watson, Mike |
| Miller, Andrew | Welsh, Andrew |
| Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Moonie, Dr Lewis | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) |
| Morgan, Rhodri | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
| Morley, Elliot | Wilson, Brian |
| Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) | Winnick, David |
| Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Wise, Audrey |
| Mowlam, Marjorie | Worthington, Tony |
| Mudie, George | Wray, Jimmy |
| Mullin, Chris | Wright, Dr Tony |
| Murphy, Paul | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | |
| O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| O'Brien, William (Normanton) | Mr. Jon Owen Jones and |
| O'Hara, Edward | Mr. Peter Kilfoyle. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.