§
Motion made and Question proposed,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty that she will be most graciously pleased to confer some signal mark of her Royal Favour upon the Right honourable Bernard Weatherill for his eminent services during the important period in which with such distinguished ability and dignity he presided in the Chair of this House. —[Mr. Robert G. Hughes.]
§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)Is this matter debatable?
§ Madam SpeakerYes. It is usually a procedural motion, but it is debatable. Does the hon. Gentleman wish to speak?
§ Mr. SkinnerI shall not take long. This motion says that we are asking the Queen for a Royal favour. I have no intention of asking the Queen for any favours. I believe that the Queen should do her subjects a favour and start paying taxes.
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman is a long-standing Member of this House. He knows full well that we do not debate the Queen, her activities or our attitude towards the Queen in the House. This motion requests the Queen to confer an honour on our former Speaker. It refers to the Speaker and not to the Queen, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will carry out the procedures that have been laid down in this House for a long time.
§ Mr. SkinnerI realise that what you say is absolutely correct and I shall come to do that matter, I just mentioned the Royal favour bit en passant—and that is the only favour I shall give to the Maastricht mob this week.
What is this favour? Will it be a place in the House of Lords? If it is, I do not want to support it. Normally, I do not have a say in the matter for anyone who gets a place in the House of Lords, because they are nominated in some list. There will be a few more nominated in a bit—Norman Tebbit, the Countess of Finchley and all the rest of them.
On this occasion, when I am given a possible chance of voting against sending someone to the House of Lords, I shall seize it with both hands. So I am looking for a teller to join me and to vote against the motion. If the favour means a place in the House of Lords, this is one of the rare occasions that we have a chance to say no.
I am against the House of Lords. I believe in a classless society. The Prime Minister is always rabbiting on about a classless society, but I want to carry it out. I do not believe in perpetuating the other place and adding to its number.
What is more. I do not know why Bernard Weatherill wants the job. It astounds me. The man had everything going for him when he was Speaker of the House of Commons. He often used to tell us that he had a little thimble in his pocket, and that he would use it when he finished. I am not against him doing that. He could use his thimble to undo all the robes. He could also use it for all those new Conservative Members of Parliament who want penguin suits, or he could make a few grey suits for those who want to be clones of the Prime Minister. Why does he need to go to the Lords?
Of course, it might not be the Lords, it might be money —some extra cash. We are talking about a society where 157 more than 3 million people are on the scrap heap—that pile of human misery known as the dole queue. We live in a society where 80,000 people are losing their homes. Why should we dole out favours to someone who is doing all right?
I do not want any favours when I have done. I hope to Christ that no one will nominate me for anything, because I shall turn it down.
§ Sir Anthony Grant (Cambridgeshire, South-West)The hon. Gentleman is suffering from "knight starvation".
§ Mr. SkinnerThe hon. Gentleman has been given a favour. He became a knight like nearly all the rest of the Tories. They go begging on hands and knees to the Prime Minister of the day. They should be given a pair of knee pads to enable them to crawl.
If my hon. Friends agree with me, they will be against the House of Lords. We once had a conference decision, when the block vote was flavour of the month, that resulted in 6 million votes, against 6,000, in favour of abolishing the House of Lords. If my hon. Friends join me, we will have a vote. I suspect that the House of Lords is what the royal favour is all about.
We have heard a lot of talk about the classless society, the honours system and elitism. Here is a chance for some Labour Members to practise those ideas. I say no to the motion.
§ 4.5 pm
§ Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich)This House has developed its long commitment to free speech to such an extent that, when we listen to highly individual and colourful characters, such as my good friend, my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), we enjoy not only their colourful speeches but their commitment to the art of personal propaganda. That does not mean that we should always appear to be, whatever our real reasons, a graceless and slightly unforgiving and ungrateful Assembly.
I have served in this House for many years, and I have had the privilege to serve under many Speakers. We would be wrong to allow the interesting gesture of my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover to be recorded as though we were in some way seeking to detract from the commitment and hard work of Mr. Bernard Weatherill. During his Speakership, many of us learned to appreciate not only his honesty and kindness, but his real concern for Back-Bench Members, and not just for those powerful Members on the Front Bench, either above or below the Gangway.
I think that it is important that the House of Commons should, from time to time, thank those of its own who care for its traditions—not only those associated with the pomp and ceremony but the really important ones concerning the protection of free speech and the rights and privileges of the people of the United Kingdom.
I should like to place on record not only my appreciation of Mr. Bernard Weatherill, but my real thanks for the way in which, over many years, he sought above all to protect the interests of individual Members of Parliament. However the motion is expressed on the Order Paper, I hope that the House will record its appreciation of the many years of loyal, kind and heartfelt warmth of service that he showed to hon. Members.
§ 4.8 pm
§ Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South)There is no objection on my part to recording our appreciation of the work of Bernard Weatherill as Speaker. I do not mind doing that at all. I object to the idea that a job must, for some reason, be given an added favour. I should have thought that the job of Speaker itself, which many people regard as the accolade of their political life, is sufficient reward. I am opposed to the idea that, because a person achieves a certain position, he should necessarily receive a royal favour.
Between 3,000 and 4,000 people work in the Palace of Westminster, and many of them do not receive anything like the prominence or accolades that the Speaker receives, but they are necessary to the functioning of this place. Last night, when the Adjournment debate started before 10.30 pm, those who receive the lowest wages in the Palace—not the £70,000-plus a year earned by the Speaker—were not allowed to travel home in a taxi because that is the rule. The Speaker receives a car, and rightly so. I do not object to that. However, the women who work here were sent home from this place, out on to the streets of London, to get home as best they could, late at night. They are not provided with a taxi if the Adjournment debate starts before 10.30 pm.
When we talk about the teamwork that is required to keep this place going, let us bear in mind the working men and women here who receive salaries and wages that are trivial compared with the pay received by the Speaker. Indeed, one might say that the Speaker, as the chairman or chairwoman over our proceedings, receives sufficient recognition by being elected by hon. Members. That honour should be recognised as such.
The idea that a royal favour automatically follows the Speaker's term of office should be scrapped. We can go a little way down the road of scrapping that aspect of the pomp and circumstance by voting against the motion. I have no doubt that many hon. Members thought that the motion would be passed in a routine way, but it gives us a chance to express our view now.
I do not expect many hon. Members to be in the No Lobby. If we are to change the panoply of this pompous institution, let us make a start now by calling a Division. I assure the House that, even if nobody is in the No Lobby, there will be two tellers for the Noes. As I say, it would be a start—[interruption.] I do not know what the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-West (Sir A. Grant) is muttering. As a Tory, if he wants to support the Prime Minister, he has a chance to support us by voting in favour of a classless society.
§ Mr. Patrick Cormack (Staffordshire, South)This is a singularly ungracious and churlish way in which to mark the long and distinguished service of your predecessor, Madam Speaker. When tributes were paid to Speaker Weatherill at the end of the last Parliament, they met with the genuine and deserved approval of hon. Members in all parts of the House. When the traditional honour—some of us believe in tradition—is being offered to a man who has served the House with impeccable rectitude for many years, it is churlish, undignified, mean, mean-spirited and petty-minded in the extreme that it should be opposed by the sort of speeches that we have heard this afternoon.
§ Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West)My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) made it absolutely clear why he would be voting against the motion, and explained that in no way did he intend any disrespect to the previous Speaker. As the hon. Member for Staffordshire, South (Mr. Cormack) said, hon. Members in all parts of the House paid tribute to Speaker Weatherill. They were sincere tributes, for we hold him in the highest respect and affection.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover made an important point. Many of us have been in talks with people from eastern Europe in which they have explained how they are establishing new democracies. When we explain the way in which democracy works in Britain, they are, generally speaking, impressed—until we describe how the House of Lords works, its powers and the way in which its members are selected. There is no question of any of the newly emerging democracies imitating our upper House.
This is the first time for many years that we have a chance to make a gesture. We have an opportunity to say that the House of Lords is an affront to the democratic system and must be reformed. In joining my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover in the No Lobby, I and others who may be in that Lobby mean absolutely no disrespect to the previous Speaker, whom we hold in the highest regard.
§ Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West)I wish at the outset to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner). It is wondrous to watch him in action. I am surprised that he spotted this occasion and has brought the matter to the attention of the House. I commend new Members on both sides to study carefully the actions of my hon. Friend. They will learn a great deal at his knee.
Like other hon. Members, I have great regard and esteem for Bernard Weatherill and everything that he did when he was in the House. I am loth to deprive him of anything that he would want having left this place, if he approves of it and sees it as a reward. Although I am reluctant to support my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover, I shall do so on the following ground alone: the unfortunate way in which the motion is termed.
We should have the right to confer a commendation or favour on one of our colleagues who has done a great service to the House. It seems most unfortunate that the only way in which we can do so is to go to the Queen and ask that a royal favour be conferred on Speaker Weatherill, who then has to go to the House of Lords, which is supposed to be this country's great bastion of privilege and class traditions. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover has now shown that it is time that the House started to look at how we could confer some form of favour or commendation on any one of our colleagues whom we feel is suitable for such an honour. That could be people who sit in the House or serve in the Refreshment Department or elsewhere. I suggest something like a Commons medal.
Whatever else my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover has done, he has shown us today that we must keep our eyes open, because we never know what will be slipped through on the Order Paper.
§ Question put:—
160§ The House divided: Ayes 247, Noes 15.
161| Division No. 16] | [4.16 pm |
| AYES | |
| Adley, Robert | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
| Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Alexander, Richard | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Foster, Derek (B'p Auckland) |
| Ancram, Michael | Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) |
| Arbuthnot, James | Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) |
| Armstrong, Hilary | French, Douglas |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Gale, Roger |
| Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Gallie, Philip |
| Ashton, Joe | Gardiner, Sir George |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Gaenier, Edward |
| Bates, Michael | Gillan, Ms Cheryl |
| Batiste, Spencer | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Beith, A. J. | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Bellingham, Henry | Gorman, Mrs Teresa |
| Bendall, Vivian | Graham, Thomas |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Grant, Sir Anthony (Cambs SW) |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Grylls, Sir Michael |
| Boateng, Paul | Gunnell, John |
| Booth, Hartley | Hague, William |
| Boswell, Tim | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Bottomley, Peter | Hannam, Sir John |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia | Hanson, David |
| Bowis, John | Hargreaves, Andrew |
| Boyes, Roland | Harris, David |
| Brandreth, Gyles | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Brazier, Julian | Hawkins, Nicholas |
| Bright, Graham | Hawksley, Warren |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Hayes, Jerry |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) | Heald, Oliver |
| Browning, Mrs. Angela | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Hendry, Charles |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Hicks, Robert |
| Butler, Peter | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Cann, James | Hill, James (Southampton Test) |
| Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Horam, John |
| Carrington, Matthew | Hordern, Sir Peter |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Howard, Rt Hon Michael |
| Chaplin, Mrs Judith | Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) |
| Clappison, James | Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) |
| Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W) |
| Coe, Sebastian | Hunter, Andrew |
| Colvin, Michael | Jack, Michael |
| Congdon, David | Jenkin, Bernard |
| Conway, Derek | Jessel, Toby |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Cormack, Patrick | Jones, leuan (Ynys Môn) |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) | Jones, Robert B. (W H'f'rdshire) |
| Dafis, Cynog | Kilfedder, James |
| Davies, Quentin (Stamford) | Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil (Islwyn) |
| Davis, David (Boothferry) | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Day, Stephen | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Deva, Niranjan | Knapman, Roger |
| Devlin, Tim | Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Knight, Greg (Derby N) |
| Dicks, Terry | Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) |
| Dixon, Don | Knox, David |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Kynoch, George (Kincardine) |
| Dover, Den | Lait, Ms Jacqui |
| Duncan, Alan | Lang, Rt Hon Ian |
| Duncan-Smith, Iain | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Dunn, Bob | Legg, Barry |
| Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) |
| Durant, Sir Anthony | Lidington, David |
| Eggar, Tim | Lightbown, David |
| Elletson, Harold | Llwyd, Elfyn |
| Enright, Derek | Luff, Peter |
| Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) | Lynne, Ms Liz |
| Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
| Evennett, David | MacKay, Andrew |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret | Maclean, David |
| Faber, David | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Fabricant, Michael | McNamara, Kevin |
| Madel, David | Sproat, Iain |
| Maitland, Lady Olga | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Major, Rt Hon John | Steel, Rt Hon Sir David |
| Malone, Gerald | Stephen, Michael |
| Mans, Keith | Stern, Michael |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) | Stewart, Allan |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Straw, Jack |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Streeter, Gary |
| Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) | Sumberg, David |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Sweeney, Walter |
| Merchant, Piers | Sykes, John |
| Miller, Andrew | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Milligan, Stephen | Taylor, Ian (Esher) |
| Mills, Iain | Taylor, Rt Hon D. (Strangford) |
| Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe) | Thomason, Roy |
| Moss, Malcolm | Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V) |
| Mudie, George | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Neubert, Sir Michael | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Thurnham, Peter |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) |
| Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Tredinnick, David |
| Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | Trend, Michael |
| Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Ottaway, Richard | Vaz, Keith |
| Page, Richard | Viggers, Peter |
| Patnick, Irvine | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
| Pawsey, James | Waller, Gary |
| Porter, David (Waveney) | Ward, John |
| Portillo, Rt Hon Michael | Waterson, Nigel |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Watts, John |
| Rathbone, Tim | Wells, Bowen |
| Redwood, John | Wheeler, Sir John |
| Riddick, Graham | Whittingdale, John |
| Robathan, Andrew | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Robertson, George (Hamilton) | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) | Wilkinson, John |
| Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) | Willetts, David |
| Ryder, Rt Hon Richard | Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) |
| Sackville, Tom | Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld) |
| Shaw, David (Dover) | Wolfson, Mark |
| Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) | Yeo, Tim |
| Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert | |
| Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) | Mr. Sydney Chapman and |
| Speed, Keith | Mr. Timothy Wood. |
| Spink, Dr Robert |
| NOES | |
| Ainger, Nicholas | Meale, Alan |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) |
| Barnes, Harry | Mullin, Chris |
| Bennett, Andrew F. | Redmond, Martin |
| Boyce, Jimmy | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
| Campbell, Ronald (Blyth V) | |
| Canavan, Dennis | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Cohen, Harry | Mr. Dennis Skinner and |
| Flynn, Paul | Mr. Bob Cryer. |
| Madden, Max |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§
Resolved,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty that she will be most graciously pleased to confer some signal mark of her Royal Favour upon the Right honourable Bernard Weatherill for his eminent services during the important period in which with such distinguished ability and dignity he presided in the Chair of this House.