Commons Sitting of 21 November 1991

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  PRIVATE BUSINESS

    BRITISH RAILWAYS BILL (By Order)
    Order for consideration, as amended, read.
    To be considered on Thursday 28 November.

  MOTIONS FOR UNOPPOSED RETURNS

    BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
    Return ordered, for Session 1990–91 of—

    (1) the total number of Questions to Ministers or other Members which stood on the Order Paper, distinguishing
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    those set down for oral, written priority and written answer respectively, the number of days upon which replies to Questions for oral answer were given in the House; and the total number of Questions for oral answer to which such answers were given in the House;

    (2) the total number of Notices of Motions given for an early day;

    (3) the number of Members ordered to withdraw from the House under Standing Order No. 42 (Disorderly conduct), showing separately the orders given in the House and those given in Committee; and the Members suspended from the service of the House under Standing Order No. 43 (Order in debate) or otherwise, distinguishing whether the offence was committed in the House or in Committee, the period of such suspension, the number of occasions on which more than one Member was so suspended having jointly disregarded the authority of the Chair, and the number of occasions on which the attention of the House was called to the need for recourse to force to compel obedience to Mr. Speaker's direction; and

    (4) the number of public petitions presented to the House distinguishing separately those brought to the Table at the times specified by Standing Order No. 133 (Time and manner of presenting petitions).—[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

    CLOSURE OF DEBATE AND ALLOCATION OF TIME
    Return ordered, for Session 1990–91 of—
    (a) applications of Standing Order No. 35 (Closure of debate)—

    (1) in the House and in Committee of the whole House, under the following heads:

    1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    Date when Closure claimed, and by whom

    Question before House or Committee when claimed

    Whether in House or Committee

    Whether assent given to Motion or withheld by the Chair

    Assent withheld because, in the opinion of the Chair, a decision would shortly be arrived at without that Motion

    Result of Motion and, if a Division, Numbers for and against

    and

    (2) in Standing Committees under the following heads:

    1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    Date when Closure claimed, and by whom

    Question before Committee when claimed

    Whether assent given to Motion or withheld by the Chair

    Assent withheld because, in the opinion of the Chair, a decision would shortly be arrived at without that Motion

    Result of Motion, and, if a Division, Numbers for and against

    and

    (b) applications of Standing Order No. 28 (Powers of Chair to propose question)—

    (1) in the House and in Committee of the whole House, under the following heads:

    1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    Date when Closure claimed, and by whom

    Whether in House or Committee

    Whether claimed in respect of Motion or Amendment

    Whether assent given to Motion or withheld by the Chair

    Result of Motion, and, if a Division, Numbers for and against

    and

    (1) in Standing Committee under the following heads:

    1

    2

    3

    4

    Date when Closure claimed, and by whom

    Whether claimed in respect of Motion or Amendment

    Whether assent given to Motion or withheld by the Chair

    Result of Motion, and, if a Division, Numbers for and against

    and
    (c) the number of Bills in respect of which allocation of time orders (distinguishing where appropriate orders supplementary to a previous order) were made under Standing Order No. 81 (Allocation of Time to Bills), showing in respect of each Bill—

    (i) the number of sittings allotted to the consideration of the Bill in Standing Committee by any report of a Business Sub-Committee under Standing Order No. 103 (Business sub-committees) agreed to by the Standing Committee, and the number of sittings of the Standing Committee pursuant thereto; and

    (ii) the number of days or portions of days allotted by the allocation of time order and any supplementary order to the consideration of the Bill at any stage in the House or in committee, together with the number of days upon which proceedings were so taken in the House or in committee.—[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

    DELEGAIED LEGISLATION
    Return ordered, for Session 1990–91 of—

    (A) the numbers of Instruments subject to the different forms of parliamentary procedure and those for which no parliamentary procedure is prescribed by statute (1) laid before the House; and (2) considered by the Joint Committee
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    and Select Committee on Statutory Instruments respectively pursuant to their orders of reference, setting out the grounds on which Instruments may be drawn to the special attention of the House under Standing Order No. 124 (Statutory Instruments (Joint Committee)) and specifying the number of Instruments so reported under each of these grounds; and

    (B) The numbers of Instruments considered by a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c., and by the House

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    respectively, showing the number where the Question on the proceedings relating thereto was put forthwith under Standing Order No. 101(5) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.).—[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

    PRIVATE BILLS AND PRIVATE BUSINESS
    Return ordered, for Session 1990–91 of—

    (1) the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, Bills for the confirmation of Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders introduced into this House, and brought from the House of Lords, and of Acts passed, specifying also the dates of the House's consideration of the several stages of such Bills;

    (2) all Private Bills, Hybrid Bills and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which were reported on by Committees on Opposed Bills or by Committees nominated by the House or partly by the House and partly by the Committee of Selection, together with the names of the selected Members who served on each Committee; the first and also the last day of the sitting of each Committee; the number of days on which each Committee sat; the number of days on which each selected Member served; the number of days occupied by each Bill in Committee; the Bills of which the Preambles were reported to have been not proved; and in the case of Bills for confirming Provisional Orders, whether the Provisional Order ought or ought not to be confirmed;

    (3) all Private Bills and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which were referred by the Committee of Selection to the Committee on unopposed Bills, together with the names of the Members who served on the Committee; the number of days on which the Committee sat; and the number of days on which each Member attended;

    (4) the number of Bills to confirm Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, distinguishing those proceeded with under section 7 and under section 9 respectively; specifying, in the case of Bills proceeded with under section 9 against which petitions were deposited, whether a motion was made to refer the Bill to a Joint Committee, and if so whether such motion was agreed to, withdrawn, negatived or otherwise disposed of; and stating for each Joint Committee to which a Bill was referred the names of the Members of this House nominated thereto, the first and last day of the Committee's sitting, the number of days on which each Joint Committee sat for the consideration of the Bill referred to it, the number of days on which each Member of the Committee served, and whether the Committee reported that the order ought or ought not to be confirmed;

    (5) the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, Bills for the confirmation of Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders withdrawn or not proceeded with by the parties, those Bills being specified which were referred to Committees and dropped during the sittings of the Committee; and

    (6) the membership, work costs and staff of the Court of Referees and the Standing Orders Committee.—[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

    PUBLIC BILLS
    Return ordered, for Session 1990–91 of—
    The number of Public Bills (other than Bills to confirm Provisional Orders and Bills to confirm Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936) distinguishing Government from other Bills, introduced into this House, or brought from the House of Lords, showing: (1) the number which received the Royal Assent, and (2) the number which did not receive the Royal Assent, indicating those which were introduced into but not passed by this House, those passed by this House but not by the House of Lords, those passed by the House of Lords but not by this House, those passed by both Houses but Amendments not agreed to; and distinguishing the stages at which such Bills were dropped, postponed or rejected in either House of Parliament,
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    or the stages which such Bills had reached by the time of Prorogation.—[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

    SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE
    Return ordered, for Session 1990–91 of—
    the days on which the House sat; stating for each day the day of the month and day of the week, the hour of the meeting, and the hour of the adjournment; the total numbers of hours occupied in the sittings of the House; and the average time; showing the number of hours on which the House sat each day and the number of hours after the time appointed for the interruption of business; and specifying, for each principal type of business before the House, how much time was spent thereon, distinguishing from the total the time spent after the hour appointed for the interruption of business.—[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

    SPECIAL PROCEDURE ORDERS
    Return ordered, for Session 1990–91 of—

    (1) the number of Special Procedure Orders presented, the number withdrawn; the number annulled; the number against which Petitions or copies of Petitions were deposited; the number of Petitions of General Objection and for Amendment respectively considered by the Chairmen; the number of such petitions certified by the Chairmen as proper to be received and the number certified by them as being Petitions of General Objection and for Amendment respectively; the number referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses; the number reported with Amendments by a Joint Committee, and the number in relation to which a Joint Committee reported that the Order be not approved and be amended respectively; and the number of Bills introduced for the confirmation of Special Procedure Orders; and

    (2) Special Procedure Orders which were referred to a Joint Committee, together with the names of the Commons Members who served on each Committee; the number of days on which each Committee sat; and the number of days on which each such Member attended.—[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

    STANDING COMMITTEES
    Return ordered, for Session 1990–91 of—
    (1) the total number and the names of all Members (including and distinguishing Chairmen) who have been appointed to serve on one or more Standing Committees showing, with regard to each of such Members, the number of sittings to which he was summoned and at which he was present; (2) the number of Bills, Estimates, Matters and other items referred to Standing Committees pursuant to Standing Order No. 101 (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.), or Standing Order 102 (European Standing Committees) considered by all and by each of the Standing Committees, the number of sittings of each Committee and the titles of all Bills, Estimates, Matters and other items as above considered by a Committee, distinguishing where a Bill was a Government Bill or was brought from the House of Lords, and showing in the case of each Bill, Estimate, Matter and other item, the particular Committee by which it was considered, the number of sittings at which it was considered (including, in the case of the Scottish Grand Committee, the number of Meetings held in Edinburgh, pursuant to a motion made under Standing Order No. 94(3) (Scottish Grand Committee)) and the number of Members present at each of those sittings; and (3) the membership, work costs and staff of the Chairmen's Panel.—[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

    SELECT COMMITTEES
    Return ordered, for Session 1990–91 of—
    statistics relating to the membership, work costs and staff of Select Committees (other than the Standing Orders Committee).—[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Oral Answers to Questions
  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Surplus Food and Drink
    Mr. Canavan: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the total volume and value of surplus food and drink stocks in (a) the United Kingdom and (b) the European Community.
    The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Gummer): We place volume figures in the Library each month. The latest values are £197 million in the United Kingdom and £2,297 million in the European Community.
    Mr. Canavan: As the amount of surplus food is even greater than last year, will the Government ensure that at the forthcoming Maastricht summit a high priority is given to the eradication of the absurd and immoral common agricultural policy? Until that is done, will the Government adopt a more generous attitude towards pensioners and others on low incomes by distributing more of the surplus food to them, especially in the lead-up to the Christmas season?
    Mr. Gummer: I note that the hon. Gentleman has signified his opposition to the Labour party's policy of abject surrender to the rest of Europe in a motion that he has signed. He has again pointed to the immense divisions in the Labour party on the subject of Europe. It would have been better if he had understood that this is not a subject for Maastricht. It is under immediate and continual discussion in the European Council of Agriculture Ministers, which is undertaking a wholesale reform of the common agricultural policy. That reform has been demanded by the Government and I intend to ensure that it is to the benefit of farmers, consumers and taxpayers alike.
    Mr. Robert Banks: Will my right hon. Friend do all that he can to ensure that surplus food within the Community and outside is sent as quickly as possible to the Soviet Union and eastern European countries, where there are cases of terrible poverty and a shortage of foodstuffs? I should be grateful if he would do all that he can for them.
    Mr. Gummer: My hon. Friend is right to point to the distinction between free enterprise in western Europe, where we have too much food, and to eastern Europe under the socialist system which has too little. We are trying to increase the amount of triangular trade, which enables the former socialist countries of eastern Europe to provide for the needs of the Soviet Union, as they used to do. We shall be funding that through the generous offers of the European Community and the bilateral offers that we have been making.
    Mr. Ron Davies: Does the Minister agree that the MacSharry proposals, which are supposed to deal with the excesses of the common agricultural policy will, if accepted, breach the legally agreed budgetary guidelines for several years to come? Will the Minister continue to press in the Council for a reduction in commodity price support and in export restitutions? Will he also press for an
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    increase in resources diverted to environmental payments? Finally, will he give a firm guarantee to the House that he will veto any agreement that leads to a breach of those budgetary guidelines?
    Mr. Gummer: I thank the hon. Gentleman for making those points, but I was surprised that he did not put first the fact that my duty is to fight to ensure that British farmers, taxpayers and consumers are not disadvantaged by the MacSharry proposals. The fact that the hon. Gentleman did not include that in his list shows that Labour Members have no interest in British farming and it betrays their total lack of farming policies.
    Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman: Does my right hon. Friend accept that farmers in this country are pleased by his efforts to encourage triangular trade, thus stopping products from eastern Europe flooding and undermining the market in Britain?
    Mr. Gummer: My hon. Friend would agree that we must make greater access available for eastern European products, but that they should be at a price that produces a significant return to enable eastern European countries to uphold the growth in their economies, rather than be used as a source of cheap imports, the profits going to the processors in western Europe. Triangular trade helps in that mix. I still want greater access, but I want it at a price that benefits the economies that we are trying to support.

    Ducks
    Mr. Salmond: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he expects to agree to a meeting to discuss the case of Mr. Johnston, a constituent of the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan, and the slaughter of his duck flock under Ministry regulations.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. David Maclean): I have explained the Ministry's position to the hon. Member in two detailed letters and there would be nothing that I could add at a meeting.
    Mr. Salmond: The Minister knows the background to this case. My constituent, Mr. Johnston, lost everything due to a salmonella outbreak on his duck farm. There are legitimate questions that he wishes to pursue about whether the Ministry's policies have been consistent in respect of, first, the Grampian outbreak and, secondly, the outbreak of salmonella at the Kent supplier to the Grampian duck farm. Why has it taken the Ministry seven weeks to reply to my letter asking for a meeting, merely to say no? Is the Minister aware that the replies so far do not satisfy the legitimate questions asked by myself, by my constituent and by the medical officers in Grampian region? Does he acknowledge the right of hon. Members to seek meetings to defend the interests of their constituents? If not, why not?
    Mr. Maclean: I often meet hon. Members where there are appropriate issues to discuss. As has already been explained to the hon. Gentleman, the policy has been applied evenly and consistently in this case and his constituent has now gone to arbitration. However, in view of the hon. Gentleman's outrageous comments on the radio this week, I shall be delighted to give a full public

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    account of our policy and the conditions on Sharnidubs farm and I shall put them on the record in the House if the hon. Gentleman applies for a debate.
    Mr. Bill Walker: Does my hon. Friend agree—Hon. Members: Sit down.
    Mr. Salmond: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Speaker: As I had already called the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker), he had better ask his supplementary question. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I had already called him and he had started his supplementary.
    Mr. Walker: Whatever the merit or otherwise of the case in question, does my hon. Friend read into it that the Scottish National party is calling for different standards in Scotland? Are those standards likely to be higher or lower than the standards in England?
    Mr. Maclean: The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) seems to be implying that there is an English duck conspiracy against Scottish ducks. The state veterinary service operates over the whole country and applies even and consistent standards. Many of the excellent Scottish food producers whom I meet are proud that in the United Kingdom standards are among the finest in Europe and they want to keep them that way.

    Sugar Beet Growers
    Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what recent representations he has received from sugar beet growers in Norfolk.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. David Curry): We are in frequent contact with sugar beet growers about rhizomania.
    Mr. Bellingham: The beet growers in my constituency are very happy with the Government's policy on ducks. Is my hon. Friend aware, however, that those beet growers have had a black cloud hanging over their operations in recent years because of the threat of rhizomania? Although, mercifully, there has not been an outbreak this year, a number of farmers have been affected during the last few years, with great consequences for their livelihood and farms. Is not it time that the Government had a comprehensive policy and package for dealing with the problem?
    Mr. Curry: The Government have a comprehensive policy, which is to be absolutely categorical in preventing the spread of rhizomania. Had we not held the line last year, we may not have had a test of more than 2,300 samples this year with no results being positive. However, I wish to maintain the flexibility to deal with individual circumstances. We have done that, which is why I am not prepared to lay down a categorical guideline that would hinder my ability to be flexible within the bounds of keeping that disease under control.

    Live Animals (Transport)
    Mr. Butler: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether the minimum value system for the transport of horses will be maintained.
    Mr. Carrington: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a further statement on the recent agreement in the Agriculture Council on the transport of horses and other animals.
    Mr. Gummer: The Government have successfully negotiated in the Agriculture Council the retention of our controls designed to prevent the export of horses and ponies for slaughter. The Council also agreed to return to the issue at a later stage with a view to setting special welfare conditions for all transport of horses in the Community.
    Mr. Butler: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on that splendid achievement. Will he assure the House that in future he will repel attacks on traditional British practices?
    Mr. Gummer: In fact, we have been defending a traditional British non-practice. I should like to extend our attitude towards all animals, especially horses, to other countries in the Community. We have much to learn from them about a number of matters—not least, for example, the way some of them treat children. However, they could learn a great deal from us about how to treat animals, and I intend to take that line continually in the Council.
    Mr. Carrington: My right hon. Friend will know that there is still grave concern about how our European Community partners treat animals in their husbandry and farming. Will he ensure that the best practices that are common in this country become European Community policy and enforceable in other European countries?
    Mr. Gummer: I am very much encouraged by the number of other countries in the European Community that are beginning to accept our views on those matters. In the meantime, we shall continue to set the example. I hope that those people who press me for higher welfare standards in this country will remember that it costs money. When they buy veal or pigmeat products, I hope that they will remember that they should buy them from the country where standards are the highest.
    Mr. Geraint Howells: I congratulate the Minister on his stand and achievements. I am sure that he has read the latest survey from Europe, according to which British farmers are farming at a loss while their counterparts in Holland and Greece are farming at a profit. Why does that happen?
    Mr. Gummer: First, it is characteristically kind of the hon. Gentleman to offer his congratulations when they are in order. I much appreciate that. The second half of his question is not necessarily connected with the first. British farming is under considerable pressure at the moment, which is why I am fighting hard against the suggestion that we should discriminate in some way against British farmers, who are characterised in the rest of Europe as being better off than their European partners. That is not so and we must show that family farms in Britain need the same support as family farms elsewhere in Europe.
    Mr. Harry Barnes: The Minister will be aware of the excellent resolution that came out of European Standing Committee A, saying that the Government should stand by legislation on the transport of animals. There are 15 pieces of such legislation. Will the Minister assure us that

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    the resolution, as adopted by the House, is being pursued rigorously in the Council of Ministers? Is the current deal temporary or permanent?
    Mr. Gummer: I much appreciate the support that has been given by that Committee. I hope that the hon. Gentleman agrees that, on this specific question, we have managed to get the Community to accept much higher standards on the transport of live animals—much closer to what we stand for—than it ever has. There are still additional points to be discussed before those decisions can be reached, including specific hours, for which we must press. I undertake to the House that I shall continue to make that a very high priority.
    I am as yet the only Minister in the Community who takes animal welfare matters seriously. I am increasingly gaining support from our Dutch and German friends and I hope ultimately to have everyone's support. [Laughter.] Those who think the subject amusing should remember that animal welfare is of considerable importance to the House, not something about which to make jokes.
    Mr. Harry Greenway: Will my right hon. Friend accept the thanks and congratulations of all those who love man's very best friend, the horse, for his protective action on horses—
    Mr. Canavan: Speak for yourself.
    Mr. Greenway: Man also loves other animals, but his best friend is the horse.
    Does my right hon. Friend accept that the Commission's action is not final? Will he promise the House and the nation that he will not rest until it is guaranteed that minimum values on horses dedicated for export from this country will be preserved and our excellent attitude towards horses and other animals is spread throughout the rest of the Community?
    Mr. Gummer: I thank my hon. Friend. I hope that he knows that I have fought hard on the issue and shall continue to do so, not only to defend our attitude towards animals in Britain, but to spread those attitudes to other countries. I find the nationalistic view that we should defend animals only in this country somewhat odd. As a strong supporter of our membership of the Community, I want to use the basis of our membership to spread more widely our general attitude to animal welfare, which is supported by Conservatives and giggled at by the Opposition.

    Fish Lorries
    Mr. Foulkes: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what representations he has made to the French Government concerning the blockade of British fish lorries at Boulogne and Dieppe.
    Mr. Curry: We have raised the incident of the blockade of a fish lorry with the French authorities. It is just as serious as the interruption of meat exports.
    Mr. Foulkes: Was the Minister able to get down to room W6 this morning, as I did, and buy the excellent fish provided by the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) and my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell), which was being sold in aid of Children in Need? If he did, he would be fortified to say to his French counterpart—as I hope he will—that British
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    fishermen are subject to exactly the same European Community rules as French fishermen. Therefore, were there to be another blockade such as that which stopped fish lorries from Ayrshire and Aberdeen without the French force of law and order being mobilised, it would be wholly unacceptable to the United Kingdom Government.
    Mr. Curry: The answer to the first question is yes. I bought one monkfish and four kippers, to be precise. I am willing to exchange monkfish recipes, but most of mine are French.
    I take the hon. Gentleman's point about blockades, whether of fish or meat. French farmers are trying to take away the livelihoods of British farmers and fishermen, instead of getting together to try to sort out the problems that afflict us all. When I next meet him I shall put that point forcefully to the French Minister, as I have in the past.
    Mr. Dickens: Will my hon. Friend make it crystal clear to his counterpart in France that if the French people continue to block our goods, the British people might fight fire with fire by blockading frogs, snails, wine and cheese?
    Mr. Curry: A few months ago, I opened a British snail exhibition and I have introduced the English quality wine scheme. It seems that the British people can buy all the products that they want without recourse to French goods.

    Fishing Industry
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he next intends to meet representatives of the National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations to discuss matters relating to the future of the fishing industry.
    Mr. Curry: I have regular meetings with the National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations, at which we discuss a wide range of subjects.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food gave guarantees on the dolphins population on 3 June this year. Can the Minister tell us how many dolphins have been killed as a result of drift-netting since 3 June?
    Mr. Curry: No, I cannot.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: Five.
    Mr. Curry: The hon. Gentleman did not specify which boats, which drift nets or which ocean, which is why I could not give him a reply. Five were caught through drift-netting by British boats. The hon. Gentleman will know that as a result of the agreement that I reached in the Fisheries Council last month, drift-net fishery will, in practice, cease.
    Sir Michael Shaw: Is my hon. Friend aware that according to the salmon net fisheries report, administrative convenience is by no means an adequate reason for phasing out the north-east drift-net fishermen, whose trade has been pursued for many generations on that part of the coast?
    Mr. Curry: My hon. Friend will know that we published a report on the north-east coast drift-net fishery, which is a different matter from that raised by the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours). We

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    decided on a long-term phase-out because of the difficulty of management of stocks when it is a multi-species catch by drift net. Although it is a long-standing fishery, the introduction of monofilament net has meant a quantum leap in the technology applied to it. There is no threat to the stocks and that is why we decided on a long-term phase-out and said that fishermen would be allowed to finish their current licences. The National Rivers Authority has been invited to submit proposals, including one for a possible increase in fishing attached to the shore.
    Mrs. Margaret Ewing: On another aspect of the fishing industry and in particular conservation, can the Minister say, following Monday's meeting, what aspect of the eight-day tie-up he is prepared to be flexible about, given the serious threat, financial hardship and dangers that that tie-up is causing to the fishing industry? In advance of the meeting of the Council of Ministers, will he ensure that a constructive debate on the matter takes place with representatives of the fishing industry and that there will he no more childish outbursts from the Minister such as was witnessed recently in Fife?
    Mr. Curry: The hon. Lady knows that my door has always been open to the fishing organisations. That will continue to be the case. At the moment we do not have the proposals from Brussels which will go forward to the Fisheries Council in December. There are two important matters. First, we shall clearly need some continuation of effort controls, because conservation is paramount. Secondly, we shall seek significantly more flexibility in the way in which those controls are applied in the event of future controls as a result of the negotiations. By telling people the simple truth—that conservation matters must be taken seriously—my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is merely doing his job effectively.
    Mr. Michael Brown: The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) and I were delighted to see my hon. Friend purchasing kippers and monkfish. As he eats the monkfish over the weekend and perhaps has the kippers tomorrow morning, will he ruminate on the call by the National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations for a decommissioning scheme? He has written to me and to the hon. Member for Great Grimsby about the case, but the organisation feels that there is a need for such a scheme to bring fishing into balance with the number of vessels.
    Mr. Curry: I trust that my wife will cook my monkfish in a way that avoids rumination on the subject—[HON. MEMBERS: "French wife."] Yes, I have a French wife. We have made it clear to the fisheries' organisations that decommissioning could form part of a package, provided that it included long-term effective effort control measures. We have invited them to put such a package to us so that we can discuss it with them. I have already started the conversations and a constructive dialogue is under way. However, I insist that a package must contain effective long-term effort controls that go beyond mesh sizes and the sort of measures agreed recently by the Technical Conservation Council.
    Mr. Speaker: I am ruminating on whether fish should be sold in the House of Commons.
    Dr. David Clark: Does the Minister recall that, on 3 June, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food lost
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    his temper with me when I suggested that dolphins could be caught in a long drift net, and denied that that was so? Given his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours), will the hon. Gentleman confirm that the Minister was wrong? Will he further confirm that, since the Fisheries Council meeting, European fishermen will still be allowed to use long drift nets for another two and a quarter years?
    Mr. Curry: The hon. Gentleman knows that when I went to the Fisheries Council the objective was to get the French on board. We had to get a deal that would bring all drift netting under control in the Community. Only five British but 60 French boats were involved. Therefore, if we had merely controlled the British fishermen, the majority of damage would have continued to be inflicted by other people. Therefore, we had to bring everyone under the same regulations. We achieved that only, after intervention by the French Prime Minister, by granting a limited extension to boats with a two-year track record in the fisheries. We had to pay the price, but it was a price worth paying because the alternative would have been no control at all, which would have been bad news for conservation, starting with the dolphins.

    Beef Industry
    Sir John Farr: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what new plans he has to improve returns in the beef industry.
    Mr. Curry: Returns in the beef sector can be improved only if a better balance between supply and demand is brought about on the market, and producers take positive action to supply what the consumer wants.
    Sir John Farr: I thank my hon. Friend for that answer, but is he aware of the tremendous concern over the Irishification of British agriculture, and in particular of the despondence over the fact that the most efficient producers have their production capped, which only succeeds in putting up prices to the British housewife? When he next goes to Brussels to see Mr. MacSharry, will my hon. Friend make it clear that his proposals are unacceptable, and will he give real consideration to the possibility of Britain withdrawing altogether from the operation and manipulations of the CAP?
    Mr. Curry: On the last point, the United Kingdom is an integral part of the Community, and unilateral withdrawal from one part of it is not a practical policy. My right hon. Friend the Minister and I have said, since the introduction of Mr. MacSharry's proposals, that the idea of introducing capping and limits on what was eligible for repayment was fundamentally hostile to British agriculture. We have made that view apparent from the start, and will continue to do so as forcefully as we conceivably can.
    Mr. Corbett: I urge the Minister to take cooking lessons so that he can more properly take a share of household duties. Will he confirm that the best way to improve returns for beef producers is for the Government to give a lead in helping to move this trade from one that is on the hoof to one that is on the hook, so that beef producers can get full value for what they produce?
    Mr. Curry: The hon. Gentleman will know that there is a significant British export trade. We have recently got

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    British beef back into CAP reform for the first time for a number of years, which is a significant improvement to the situation. If meat is sold on the hook, like sheepmeat, the added value comes to the United Kingdom, but if people wish to buy British beef or British lamb on the hoof, the treaty of Rome does not permit us to prevent that sale. Furthermore, if that is what people want, we can make sure that when it is transported in good condition, it arrives in good condition, healthy and good both for the consumer and the animals concerned.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: How many more years will it take my hon. Friend to discover the obvious truth—that the only way in agricultural produce to relate supply and demand is by a quota system, such as that which exists for milk products?
    Mr. Curry: I remember the introduction of milk quotas and I recall the number of times that we have been obliged to cut the quotas because of the continued failure to match output with demand. We are faced with yet a new demand for a cut in milk quotas and it is precisely for that reason that it will take a long time to convince me that quotas are the answer.
    Dr. David Clark: Can the Minister explain why major British steak restaurants do not use a single ounce of European beef and say that this is because it lacks quality, when we have almost 1 million tonnes in intervention?
    Mr. Curry: Since I do not run any steak restaurants the answer to that is no. But I can tell them where they will get extremely good quality English beef, starting in my constituency. As I was buying fish early this morning, I shall undertake to bring the hon. Gentleman a sample of beef from my constituency where I live.
    Mr. Jopling: Is my hon. Friend aware that beef producers in the Lake district who, together with sheep producers, are having a difficult time, are rejoicing today following yesterday's announcement of the extension of the environmentally sensitive area scheme to the Lake district? The promise of many millions of pounds coming to their assistance demonstrates clearly that the Government are well aware of their problems and the need to preserve those beautiful areas.
    Mr. Curry: I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend. I recall that the first ESAs were designated when he was Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, so he is very much the author of the scheme. It is true that the scheme brings benefits to farmers, the landscape and all who live in and visit the countryside. It is rare to have a scheme that makes everyone happy, but this appears to be one of the few instances where that is so. I hope that we can discover more.

    Organic Farming
    Ms. Hoey: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what support is being given to increase the number of farmers using organic methods.
    Mr. Curry: In addition to that aid which is available to all farmers, we are financing research and development on organic farming systems and are grant aiding the United Kingdom register of organic food standards.
    Ms. Hoey: Research is important, but about two years ago the hon. Gentleman's Department announced the launch of a conversion scheme for organic farmers in Britain. More than 70 per cent. of organic produce in Britain is imported and support for German organic farmers is greater. Should not the Government be taking a lead in giving those British farmers who want to convert the same opportunities as continental farmers?
    Mr. Curry: The hon. Lady will know that we sought to introduce an organic conversion scheme, but at the time the Community regulations did not permit it. Similarly, we wanted a young entrants scheme for milk which was not possible. That has now been overtaken by the MacSharry proposals. We are aiming to introduce an organic conversion scheme in the course of the MacSharry reform because we believe that farmers should have that opportunity. Whether consumers want to buy and eat organic produce is a matter for them.
    Sir Richard Body: Will my hon. Friend bear it in mind that most of us who are organic farmers are receiving a premium of 25 per cent. above the market price, so we are not in need of the production subsidy to which he alluded? On the other hand, we welcome wholeheartedly the proposals for organic research in "Our Farming Future".
    Mr. Curry: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It is important that in all these matters the market should decide whether it wants a product or not. Our job is to ensure that what purports to be an organic product is organic and not a false product, and that is what we have done. It is interesting to note that the previous Labour Government showed not the slightest interest in organic production.
    Mr. William Ross: What research has there been into the cost of producing food by organic means compared with the more usual methods? What sort of profits can farmers expect if they move completely to organic methods?
    Mr. Curry: I do not think that anyone is suggesting that there should be universal production of organic foods. As my hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston (Sir R. Body) said, organic foods command a premium and a significant proportion of such food is imported, so there is certainly scope to increase output in the United Kingdom. But the market must decide whether it wants such food and, if so, what sort of premium to pay for it. I do not think that we shall see universal organic production.

    Consultative Document
    Mr. Robert Hicks: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he hopes to publish his consultative document about the future of United Kingdom agriculture; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Gummer: The Government's statement on agriculture, "Our Farming Future", was published on 15 November.
    Mr. Hicks: I am sure that all concerned with agriculture and the future of the countryside will welcome that review. Does my right hon. Friend agree that farmers make a major contribution to the rural economy and that if that function is to continue, it is essential that, in the context of the CAP reforms, there should be no discrimination

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    against United Kingdom producers on the basis of farm size, and that payment for alternative forms of land use must be meaningful?
    Mr. Gummer: I thank my hon. Friend for his congratulations. I agree: payments must indeed be meaningful, and farmers must be paid for doing the job. We do not want to pay them for doing nothing; we want to pay them to look after the land properly. That is why we want environmental payments to be at the centre of agricultural reform, rather than being an extra.
    Mr. Hardy: Will the Minister give urgent consideration to a serious danger that is likely to develop as a result of the ban on stubble burning? There will almost certainly be a considerable increase in the use of pesticides and other farm poisons.
    Mr. Gummer: I would not designate pesticides "farm poisons". I think that, although we should use them to the minimum extent that is required, we should be grateful for the existence of pesticides, for without them we should not be able to feed our people so generously and valuably. I am well aware of the problem that the hon. Gentleman mentions, but I nevertheless feel that the Government were right to ban stubble burning, which I consider an unacceptable practice.
    Mr. Marland: I, too, congratulate my right hon. Friend on his document "Our Farming Future". Does he believe that the day will ever dawn when we can begin to undo the harm done by the market-distorting subsidies that are given not only across the whole of agriculture, but across the European Community? The common agricultural policy has never cost so much money, yet the money never seems to be enough.
    Mr. Gummer: I agree. Paradoxically, at a time when the CAP is more expensive than ever before, farmers rightly complain that their incomes have diminished significantly. We need a reformed CAP that will do its job properly, and to do that we must be full, active and central members of the Community. I reject the remarks made earlier by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), who said from a sedentary position, "We have had 20 minutes slagging off the common market", and then added—turning to his hon. Friends—"and now you are going to vote for it." That shows the extent of Labour's unity on the Common Market.

    Fishing Vessels (Decommissioning)
    Mr. Menzies Campbell: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make it his policy to introduce a decommissioning scheme for fishing vessels.
    Mr. Curry: The Government are ready to consider a package of industry proposals which could include decommissioning, but only if it forms part of a wider conservation package aimed at reducing fishing effort.
    Mr. Campbell: I welcome the Minister's lukewarm conversion to the idea of a decommissioning scheme, but will he explain why it has taken so long? Fishing interests have long urged a change of attitude on the Government. Has it not been clear for some time that sensible conservation measures can be achieved only if the fishing fleet is restructured in a sensible way?
    Mr. Curry: I do not agree. It is important to distinguish between decommissioning as the sole instrument of conservation, and the other conservation measures that are necessary. It is simply not true to say that decommissioning by itself does anything for conservation; technical conservation and effort control must also be part of the process. As I have said, however, we are prepared to consider the possibility of a decommissioning scheme, provided that it is part of an overall conservation package. Conservation is, of course, important and I stress that fishing organisations must include it in their proposals if they wish to be taken seriously.
    Mr. Harris: I appreciate the difficulties that surround a decommissioning scheme and I agree with my hon. Friend that it is not a panacea. Does he agree, however, that the pressure for such a scheme to be introduced is likely to increase in view of the Commission's latest proposals—not yet made public—for some pretty hefty cuts in quota, not least for the south-west of England? Will he agree to receive an all-party delegation of Members of Parliament tO discuss the details of a scheme?
    Mr. Curry: I have already said that I will accept a delegation of hon. Members to discuss the possibility of decommissioning; in fact, I believe that a date has been agreed. Let me make it clear, however, that in accepting the delegation I am not accepting the principle of decommissioning. Conservation must be seen as a package. Effort control is part of that package; decommissioning could be part of it. I am having an extremely constructive dialogue with the fishing organisations and I hope that it will continue. The fact that that dialogue is beginning is due to the fishing industry's recent recognition that effort control matters.

    Milk Marketing Board
    Mr. Martlew: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he last met the chairman of the Milk Marketing Board to discuss the board's future role.
    Mr. Knox: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he is next due to meet the chairman of the Milk Marketing Board to discuss the dairy sector.
    Mr. Gummer: I last met the chairman of the Milk Marketing Board on 6 November.
    Mr. Martlew: Is the Minister aware that the Milk Marketing Board has served the country well since 1933, especially in my area of Cumbria? Will the Minister acknowledge that there are major concerns and worries among dairy farmers in this country? Will he tell the dairy farmers and the House that he will support the MMB as it stands now, despite all the attacks from the EEC?
    Mr. Gummer: Anybody who said, "This company has remained the same for 60 years, so please invest in it" would receive a dusty answer from anybody who was sensibly involved. The world has changed over the past 60 years and that is why the Milk Marketing Board has said that it has to change. The Labour party has a policy of telling the MMB that it does not know its own business and that it should not change but go on as it has for the past 60 years. Once again, the Labour party shows that it

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    knows nothing about farming, cares even less, and hopes to win a vote or two for the most reactionary policy known in Britain.
    Mr. Knox: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the apprehensions felt by dairy farmers in my constituency about the future level of their incomes? Does he propose to take any action to reassure them?
    Mr. Gummer: I am very much aware of that and that is why, as my hon. Friend knows, the Milk Marketing Board has been concerned to change its structure in order to defend the income of his constituents and others. In general, over the past 10 years, the receipts of dairy farmers in Britain have been lower than most in the rest of Europe, but consumers have paid more for liquid milk than in the rest of Europe. Therefore, the Milk Marketing Board is right to seek changes and the Labour party is wrong to try to stop it.

  PRIME MINISTER

    Engagements
    Ql. Mr. Pawsey: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. John Major): This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.
    Mr. Pawsey: Does my right hon. Friend believe that there should be a referendum on the Maastricht summit? What is my right hon. Friend's opinion about a referendum to be held sometime in the future on the single currency?
    The Prime Minister: The answer to my hon. Friend's question in both cases is no. The Government do not intend to hold a referendum on the outcome of the Maastricht negotiations. There is no case for one and the Government will not offer one. On the second part of my hon. Friend's question, that issue would, self-evidently, be a matter for a future Parliament, but my view remains that we are a parliamentary democracy and I see no need for a referendum.
    Mr. Kinnock: I am grateful to the Prime Minister for that answer. Will he, therefore, confirm that for as long as he is leader of the Conservative party it will never accept referendums on European Community matters?
    The Prime Minister: I have just made the point clear to the right hon. Gentleman. On this issue I do not see the need for a referendum.
    Mr. Hannam: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Hannam: Will my right hon. Friend take time today to read the speech of Mr. Jacques Delors in which he said that no single group of nations had survived purely on the basis of intergovernmental relationships? Will my right hon. Friend remind Mr. Delors of the existence of
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    NATO, where intergovernmental agreement has succeeded, and contrast it with the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, where excessive central control has undoubtedly failed?
    The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very telling point. The Community including the Commission, must adapt to the changes in Europe. There is a case for flexible arrangements and I set that out yesterday, but they are for Governments to determine. They are expressly not policy matters for the Commission to determine.
    Mr. Ashdown: Having yesterday heard the views of his predecessor with regard to Europe, surely the Prime Minister must now realise that he has to make a choice. He can either have Finchley or Maastricht, but he cannot have both. Will he now choose Europe or her? Or will he stay lamely stuck on the fence?
    The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman was here yesterday when I set out quite clearly and in some detail the Government's position on the negotiations at Maastricht. As I recall, my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) began her speech by giving me her full support—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Batiste: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Batiste: Since our success in exploiting the opportunities of the European Community must depend considerably on getting the maximum benefit from our education system, is my right hon. Friend aware of the concern that mixed ability teaching in secondary schools is causing widespread under-achievement by pupils at both ends of the ability spectrum? Will he therefore join me in welcoming the comment yesterday of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science that streaming is the only effective way of getting the best from all our children?
    The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet (Mr. Batiste) and with the remarks by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science. Over the past few months he has shown clearly that he will make one of the great Secretaries of State for Education and Science.
    Mr. Martyn Jones: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Jones: Following his reply last Tuesday to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), will the Prime Minister now promise to restore the unemployment benefit rights which so benefited him when he was a young man in the 1960s and which he abolished in the 1980s? Is not the Prime Minister guilty of kicking away the ladder now that he has got to the top?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman clearly does not understand the social security system any more than the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner). If he did, he would be aware that since the early 1960s all sorts of care

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    allowances have been introduced such as invalid care allowance and the hon. Gentleman clearly did not know about that.
    Mr. Dunn: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Dunn: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will be aware that we have more inward investment than any other European Commission country, partly as a result of our lower taxation policies on income, profits and employers. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we are likely to lose our advantage in attracting inward investment if we sign up to a policy of binding minimum rates of taxation in Europe, a policy which is already supported and endorsed by the Labour party and was yesterday by the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham)?
    The Prime Minister: Higher corporate taxes are bound to mean lower inward investment from abroad, particularly in many of the regions of this country. It would be particularly damaging for Scotland, and that is also why a Scottish assembly with tax-raising powers would be very bad news indeed for Scotland. We will leave it to the Opposition to advocate higher taxes on companies and individuals. That is not our policy. We will advocate lower taxes and in so doing will encourage more inward investment.
    Mr. Callaghan: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Callaghan: In view of the terrible brain damage suffered by two boxers in recent bouts, will the Prime Minister give the House his views on boxing? Does he agree with the British Medical Association that boxing should he banned in this country?
    The Prime Minister: No. I do not agree with banning boxing in this country. It is important that there is proper medical attention and that the referee has full discretion to stop the bout whenever he wishes. Boxing should not be banned in this country, and any move to do so would not have my support.
    Sir George Gardiner: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Sir George Gardiner: Will my right hon. Friend give his assessment of the kind of man who, after declaring himself to be a reluctant European, can argue today in favour of an immediate signing-up to a single currency and joining a headlong rush to a federal Europe? In an attempt to resolve that enigma, will my right hon. Friend find time to have a private word with the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman)?
    The Prime Minister: I have a busy day, and I doubt whether I will have time for that, but I share my hon. Friend's concern at the U-turns that we have seen, but not
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    just from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman)—although certainly from him—but from the Labour party. We should remember that, if we had listened to the Labour party, we would not be negotiating at Maastricht, we would be queueing outside the Community trying to get back into it.

    Tibet
    Dr. Godman: To ask the Prime Minister what discussions he has had with President Bush about the implications of that section of the State Department Authorization Act 1991 which relates to Tibet and the position of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in exile.
    The Prime Minister: None, Sir.
    Dr. Godman: The United States Congress, by way of that Act, holds to the view that Tibet is an occupied country whose true representatives are the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in exile. It would appear, would it not, that President Bush also has that perception, as he signed that Act on 28 October? Does the Prime Minister share the belief that Tibet is an occupied country whose true representatives are the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in exile?
    The Prime Minister: Tibet has never been internationally recognised as an independent country. No country in the world regards Tibet as independent now. Having said that, we have taken every opportunity, including my recent visit to China, to set out our concerns about the way in which Tibetans are treated and to urge that they have proper human rights.
    Mr. Quentin Davies: While rejoicing with the rest of the civilised world at the release of Terry Waite and the other hostages—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The question is about Tibet.

    Engagements
    Mr. Tim Smith: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Smith: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, for the first time since the start of the recession, responses from Milton Keynes business to the latest quarterly economy survey show an increase in home sales and orders and that the more benign economic climate, with falling interest rates and falling inflation, has resulted in a further large increase in business confidence and an expectation of higher turnover and higher profits over the next 12 months? Is not that very good news indeed?
    The Prime Minister: It is, indeed, but it was foreshadowed by the authoritative CBI survey which shows rising expectations for investment, output and exports. That means an increase in planned spending on training and innovation which has now returned to pre-recession levels.
    Mr. Beggs: Can the Prime Minister assure the House that there will be no further concessions to the Irish

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    Republic in order to obtain the extradition of terrorist suspects to stand trial in the United Kingdom? Further, will he assure us that, if Her Majesty's Government decide to appoint a commissioner to supervise terrorist interrogations, that commissioner will be a British citizen?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman knows that we do not bargain and that we do not do deals. That has remained, does remain, and will remain the position.
    Mr. Cran: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Cran: Is my right hon. Friend aware that my constituents in the great northern constituency of Beverley would like to get away from the iron grip of Labour-controlled Humberside council? As the Boundary Commission has already asked for that council to be abolished, does my right hon. Friend agree that the local government commission that he is to establish should consider abolishing Humberside council before any other?
    The Prime Minister: I know of my hon. Friend's particular interest in that matter, but it would be wise to wait until our new local government commission has examined the overall structure of local government before
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    making any specific decisions. I assure my hon. Friend that we intend to ask the new commission to make that task one of its early priorities.
    Mr. Benn: I rise to ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, on a point—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I called the right hon. Gentleman to ask a question.
    Mr. Benn: In that case, Mr. Speaker, my question touches on a point that I will raise with you in a moment.
    Mr. Speaker: I would much rather that the right hon. Gentleman asks his question of the Prime Minister, not me.
    Mr. Benn: The whole House understands that the Prime Minister's view is that the British people have no right to be directly consulted on the constitutional changes that may emerge from Maastricht. However, the Prime Minister will know, having been present for yesterday's debate, that right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House argue for a referendum. If the Prime Minister believes in parliamentary democracy, does he not agree that the House has a right to decide whether there should be a referendum, and will he provide an opportunity to hold one?
    The Prime Minister: Many views can be held on the subject of referendums. I have expressed my own, and I do not intend to change it.

Business of the House
3.31 pm
Dr. John Cunningham: May I ask the Leader of the House to tell us the business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John MacGregor): The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 25 NovEMBER—Second Reading of the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill.
Motion on the Library Charges (England and Wales) Regulations.
The Chairman of Ways and Means has named opposed private business for consideration at seven o'clock.
TUESDAY 26 NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Further and Higher Education (Scotland) Bill.
WEDNESDAY 27 NovEMBER—Opposition day (1st Allotted Day). Until about seven o'clock there will he a debate described as "The Housing Problem" followed by a debate entitled "Sports Provision in the United Kingdom". Both debates arise on Opposition motions.
Motion to take note of EC documents relating to the 1992 EC budget. Details will be given in the Official Report.
THURSDAY 28 NovEMBER—Proceedings on the Welsh Development Agency Bill.
FRIDAY 29 NovEMBER—Private Members' motions.
MONDAY 2 DECEMBER—Second Reading of the Transport and Works Bill.
The House will also wish to know that European Standing Committee B will meet at 10.30 am on Wednesday 27 November to consider European Community document No. 7485/91 relating to child care.
European Standing Committee B will also meet at 4.30 pm on Monday 2 December to consider European Community documents relating to indirect taxation. Details will be given in the Official Report.
[Wednesday 27 November European Standing Committee B
Relevant European Community document
7485/91 Child Care
Relevant Report of European Legislation Committee
HC 24-ii (1991–92)
Floor of the House

Relevant European Community documents

(a) 7184/91

Preliminary Draft Budget of the European Communities for 1992

(b) 7368/91

Letter of Amendment No. 1 to 1992 Preliminary Draft Budget of the European Communities

(c) 8442/91

Letter of Amendment No. 2 to the Preliminary Draft Budget for 1992

(d) Unnumbered

Commission's Letter of Amendment No. 3 to the Preliminary Draft Budget for 1992

(e) 7731/91

Draft Budget of European Communities for 1992

Relevant Reports of European Legislation Committee

(a) HC 29-xxviii (1990–91)

(b) HC 24-i (1991–92)

(c) No report

(d) No report

(e) HC 29-xxx ( 1990–91)

(f) HC 24-i (1991–92)

(g) No report

(h) HC 24-i ( 1991–92)

Monday 2 December
European Standing Committee B

Relevant European Community documents

(a) 6762/89

Indirect Taxes: Harmonisation

(b) 6641/90

Indirect Taxes: Harmonisation

(c) 6642/90

Indirect Taxes (Administrative Co-operation)

(d) 9670/90

Holding and Movement of Excisable Goods

Relevant Report of European Legislation Committee

(a) HC 15-xxxii (1988–89) and HC 29-xxviii (1990–91)

(b) HC 11-xxxi ( 1989–90), HC 29-i ( 1990–91) and HC 24-i (1991–92)

(c) HC 11-xxxi (1989–90) and HC 24-ii ( 1991–92)

(d) HC 11-.vxxiii ( 1989–90) and HC 24-ii ( 1991–92)

Dr. Cunningham: Will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement early next week by the Home Secretary? Is he aware of the serious allegations made in the television programme "Thames Reports" last week about the alleged involvement of the police in the break-out of terrorists from Brixton prison last July? Are not those very serious allegations? Is it not also serious that it is implied that the Home Office knew about that involvement at the time? Is not the House of Commons, indeed the country as a whole, entitled to hear from the Home Secretary in person exactly whether those allegations have any foundation? Will the Leader of the House arrange for an early oral statement on that important matter?
What has happened to the statements that we expected on revenue support grant? Given that the decision of the Department of the Environment and of the Scottish and Welsh Offices will have huge implications for the levels of poll tax that people will be expected to pay next year, should we not have an early statement in the Chamber on those issues?
Turning now to his own responsibilities, when does the Leader of the House expect to be able to make a statement on expanding the provisions of communication between Members of this House and the institutions of the

423
European Community? I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us about that soon and that he will make a statement on that matter next week.
Can the Leader of the House find time soon for a debate on the economy of London? Is he aware of the report by the Henley Centre for Forecasting, which states that, in the first nine months of this year, 12,359 small businesses failed in London and the south-east, which is more than in the whole of last year and shows an alarming and continuing increase in business failures in our capital city? The economy of London is suffering dreadfully in this second Conservative recession, and we should have an opportunity to debate that matter in the House as soon as possible.
Mr. MacGregor: No statement is necessary on the Brixton escape and there will not be a statement next week. I understand that, in view of the allegations about the conduct of Staffordshire special branch officers, the chief constable of Staffordshire has arranged for a full investigation by the deputy chief constable of another force. It would not be appropriate for the Home Secretary to comment until the inquiry is completed.
On the hon. Gentleman's request for a revenue support grant statement from my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for the Environment and for Wales, the hon. Gentleman is correct in intimating that statements on those matters are necessary, and I hope that they will be made very soon—I hope next week. I cannot give a precise date, but that is the intention.
In answer to the hon. Gentleman's point about travel —which is what I think that he had in mind when he referred to "communication"—by hon. Members to European Community institutions, I hope to table the necessary resolutions very soon. They are being technically completed at the moment.
In view of our heavy business, especially that relating to legislation, I see no prospect for a debate in Government time on the economy of London.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. No fewer than 82 right hon. and hon. Gentlemen are seeking to take part—
Mrs. Edwina Currie: And Ladies.
Mr. Speaker: Yes, and Ladies—are seeking to speak in the European debate. Would the hon. Gentlemen—and Ladies—who wish to participate please reserve their fire at business questions so that we can get on? I may then be able to call them.
Sir Dudley Smith: Will my right hon. Friend encourage the Opposition to initiate a Supply day debate in the not-too-distant future on the subject of the recession, because there is a strange idea, fostered by the Opposition and the media, that it is a peculiarly British disease, whereas it is worldwide? A debate would present a good opportunity to underline the fact that many countries are experiencing far more difficulties than we are.
Mr. MacGregor: My hon. Friend has made the point. Those of us who travel abroad know that he is right. The economic issues that he has menioned exist in many other countries and have implications for our position. I am sure
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that he will agree that the improvements in manufacturing exports clearly show how well British industry is doing, given the world situation.
Rev. Martin Smyth: Will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on yesterday's meeting of the Anglo-Irish intergovernmental conference, especially in the light of the Prime Minister's failure to respond to the second part of the question that was asked by the hon. Member for Antrim, East (Mr. Beggs)?
Mr. MacGregor: I am not sure whether a statement on yesterday's meeting would be appropriate, but I shall draw the hon. Gentleman's request to my right hon. Friend's attention.
Mr. Michael Latham: Will my right hon. Friend accept the thanks of the whole House for agreeing to extend last night's debate until midnight, thus allowing a large number of Members to be called?
Mr. MacGregor: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend.
Mr. Max Madden: Will the Leader of the House arrange for the Home Secretary to make a statement next week about political asylum fraud? Will he ensure specifically that the Home Secretary gives an assurance that no pressure or persuasion is being applied to the Metropolitan police in the case of Mr. Mohinder Paul Singh Bedi of Hayes to halt their inquiries or withdraw requests to investigate the bank accounts of Members of Parliament who have business or other links with Mr. Bedi?
Mr. MacGregor: I cannot comment on that case. The issue of political asylum is, of course, being debated in relation to a Bill which is currently going through the House.
Sir John Farr: Has my right hon. Friend had a chance to look at the Order Paper recently? Has he noticed that several right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House have tabled a motion about the establishment of a Select Committee on Northern Ireland affairs? Has my right hon. Friend been able to consider that point yet?
Mr. MacGregor: As the House knows, because I have said it several times in business questions, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has said that the establishment of a Northern Ireland Select Committee is best taken forward in the context of the fresh political talks. I believe that that is right. We must all hope that in due course the talks will proceed.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: Will the Leader of the House ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food again to make a statement about the dioxins in Bolsover? Is he aware that, when the dioxin-contaminated milk was transferred in the summer from Bolsover to Severn-Trent for disposal, Severn-Trent did not have a licence? Then an attempt was made to get rid of it at 800 deg C in the west midlands but the incinerator needed to be at 1,200 deg C. The result was that the dioxins from Bolsover in the east midlands were transmitted all over the west midlands. It is high time that there was a public inquiry into the matter and that the Minister of Agriculture made a statement at the Dispatch Box.
Mr. MacGregor: I have responded as fully as possible when the hon. Gentleman has raised the matter, and I have drawn it to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. As I have said before, the results of the testing will be published when all the data have been evaluated in the new year.
Mr. John Greenway: What is the progress on introducing the Bill to increase the penalties for youngsters who steal cars? Is my right hon. Friend aware that last night in my constituency a woman was killed in a car accident and three others were injured, one extremely seriously? The driver of the other car, which was stolen, was a 16-year-old boy. Will my right hon. Friend join me in sending condolences to the bereaved family and wishing those who are injured a speedy recovery? Does he agree that the sooner we put new measures on the statute book, the sooner we can instil into these young criminals the knowledge that such selfish and irresponsible behaviour will not be tolerated?
Mr. MacGregor: I certainly join my hon. Friend in sending condolences to the bereaved family and wishing a speedy recovery to the injured. I am sure that the whole House deplores such incidents. There can be no doubt about the message to young people who engage in this activity. I assure my hon. Friend that we are proceeding with urgency on the Bill. Technical considerations are being completed, and I hope that we shall be able to put it to the House before long. In view of what my hon. Friend has said—with which I am sure that everyone in the House agrees—I hope that the Bill will have a speedy passage through the House.
Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington): May we have a statement on Sunday trading? Is it true, that B&Q sponsored the agents' ball at the Conservative party conference? What is the connection?
Mr. MacGregor: I am not certain whether that is true, but I am sure that there is no connection. We have no plans to make any changes to the legislation on Sunday trading in the near future—for example, before Christmas. As the House knows, the Minister of State, Home Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Mrs. Rumbold), has had detailed discussions on the reform of Sunday trading. Everyone recognises that the law is anomalous. The difficulty is to find a solution that will command majority support in the House. My right hon. Friend is continuing to explore that in her discussions.
Mr. Paul Channon: Does my right hon. Friend agree that, before we get to Maastricht, it is important that we should have the views of all hon. Members? Therefore, will he arrange another debate before the summit so that we can hear the views of the right hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Foot) and establish whether all ex-leaders of the Labour party support its present policy?
Mr. MacGregor: If we tried to extend that to all Labour Members rather than to ex-leaders, we would have to debate the issue all week to tempt them to their feet. I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend. He is right to draw attention to the divisions on the Labour side of the House, which were made clear by the way in which the House responded to a point that the Leader of the
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Opposition made yesterday about the so-called unity of the Labour party. However, we have endeavoured to have as long a debate as we can on the issue yesterday and today.
Mrs. Alice Mahon: Would the Leader of the House ensure that we discuss the relationship between a Secretary of State and a Select Committee of the House at the earliest opportunity? I refer to the "Waldegate Affair", of which I am sure he is aware.
Mr. MacGregor: That is a completely wrong description of a matter which the Select Committee on Privileges is now discussing—which is why it would not be appropriate for me to say anything further.
Dr. John Blackburn: Will my right hon. Friend consider early-day motion 209, which relates to a British company that has achieved a wonderful contract in Kenya?
[That this House calls upon the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and the Minister of State for Overseas Development to grant Aid Trade Provision Cover and ECGD cover over three years from 1992 to enable Communication Supplies Ltd. to continue to export further System X telephone exchanges and ancillary equipment to Kenya, which they have done successfully for the past seven years; and furthermore notes that the Kenyan Government considers this project as top of their list of priorities for trade with the United Kingdom, and the project will save and provide many thousands of jobs throughout the United Kingdom and will lead to repeat business for many years to come, and that if funding is not forthcoming the contract will be lost to the United Kingdom and awarded to either Japanese, French or Italian companies, all of whom have shown open interest.]
Will he consider an early debate on that important issue, or convey the motion's sentiments to the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry?
Mr. MacGregor: I shall certainly convey the sentiments, but I am afraid that I cannot promise my hon. Friend an early debate.
Mr. Archy Kirkwood: Does the Leader of the House acknowledge that the discussions in which Ministers arc involved in the European Commission regarding the MacSharry proposals are of fundamental importance to the future of British agriculture? Will he undertake to debate, in Government time, the negotiations before their conclusion is reached or, alternatively, afterwards?
Mr. MacGregor: I certainly agree about the importance of the MacSharry proposals. The hon. Gentleman asks whether we could debate them after they have been debated in the European Community, but we are talking about a long time ahead. I understand that the Scrutiny Committee is due to examine the detailed text on 27 November, and we certainly plan to have a debate in early December. I agree with the hon. Gentleman on this matter.
Mr. Steve Norris: Will my right hon. Friend note that, with 82 hon. Members wishing to express an opinion in the debate later this afternoon, any suggestion that the additional two hours provided is adequate is clearly wide of the mark? Will he give the House an assurance that, when we discuss the post-Maastricht position, the debate will be unlimited? On

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his discussions with Front-Bench Members, in the absence of a commitment to a referendum, will he ensure that, at least on this side of the House, there is a free vote?
Mr. MacGregor: I have done my best to give as much time as possible to the debate yesterday and today, including making my answers to business questions as short as possible so that we can get on with the debate. However, I would certainly not want to give a commitment about a further debate.
Mr. Robert Hughes: Is the Leader of the House aware that the representatives of every medical and professional body in Aberdeen and Grampian region oppose the opt-out application for Foresterhill hospitals? Although he may not care to remember as far back as a fortnight ago, does he recollect that every candidate in the Kincardine and Deeside by-election, including his own, expressed opposition to the opt-out proposals? Will he ensure that next week the Secretary of State for Scotland comes to the House and rejects the proposals out of hand?
Mr. MacGregor: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is considering the proposals and will make a statement on the matter as soon as he is ready.
Mr. Jerry Wiggin: Is the Leader of the House aware that more than 70 right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House have signed a prayer against the explosives regulations? Will he find time to debate the matter?
Mr. MacGregor: I have noted what my hon. Friend has said. I shall have to consider it.
Mr. Dave Nellist: Has the Leader of the House seen early-day motion 148 about the disgraceful closure of Coventry colliery with the loss of 1.300 jobs?
That this House condemns British Coal for its closure of the Coventry Colliery at Keresely with the loss of 1,300 jobs, completed in a mere 13 days from the announcement of the decision to the working of the last shift: believes that the pit is not abandoned but mothballed with 40 million tonnes of good quality reserves of medium sulphur content which will be kept on a care and maintenance basis until a link-up is organised by a privatised Daw Mill Colliery should the Government be re-elected; condemns British Coal's refusal to attend two meetings of local authority and parish councillors, local honourable Members of this House and church representatives and notes the absence at the meetings of 24th October and 11th November of the local Tory honourable Members; and calls for a public inquiry into the methods of the closure and the false economics which talk of 'losses' yet fail to take into account the future cost to public funds of lost production and taxes paid, and of dole and unemployment payments to be made.]
Following a meeting this morning at the Department of Energy, may I ask him to arrange for the Secretary of State to make a statement answering the anger in Coventry, not just about the way in which the pit was closed and the loss of jobs, but the belief that the closure took place to mothball 40 million tonnes of medium sulphur content coal so that, were the Conservatives to be re-elected and
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the pits privatised, Daw Mill could take that coal out in a UDM pit? How much further do the Government intend to take their vendetta against members of the NUM?
Mr. MacGregor: I have seen the early-day motion to which the hon. Gentleman refers. He will know that decisions on individual colliery closures are matters for the British Coal Corporation. I understand that the closure of the colliery in question has been due to heavy losses resulting from continued failure to meet operating targets.
Sir Robert Rhodes James: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many people inside and outside the House, while recognising that it is important to spend two days debating the future of Europe, wonder why the House is not debating, even for a short time, the fact that a war is raging in a European country—Yugoslavia? Will he consider having a debate on the situation there?
Mr. MacGregor: I have noted my hon. Friend's remarks. My problem is that a great deal of business needs to be done, and I have to try to accommodate that business as well.
Mr. Thomas Graham: Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for the Secretary of State for Defence to make a statement about the way in which contractors are paid £10 an hour for security guards at some of our vital establishments when security guards in my constituency are being paid £1·80 an hour? Do I see the Leader of the House smiling at that? Is he aware that the nation's security establishments are being guarded by people who are paid £.1·80 an hour? It is a lamentable state of affairs. The Secretary of State should make a statement about private security firms guarding the nation's military establishments.
Mr. MacGregor: I assure the hon. Gentleman that the smile was not about the issue he was raising. I do not think it would be appropriate for a statement, but I shall draw his comments to the attention of my right hon. Friend.
Mr. David Porter: Will my right hon. Friend undertake to arrange a debate before Christmas, or at least before the December Council of Ministers meeting on fishing, so that we may have our annual chance to discuss the state of the fishing industry in England and elsewhere in the kingdom?
Mr. MacGregor: I appreciate my hon. Friend's concern, and particularly his constituency concern about that issue. I promise him that I am endeavouring to find time for a debate.
Mrs. Margaret Ewing: May we have a statement about whether the Government intend to implement a European directive—it should have come into effect this weekend—by which local authorities will be informed when nuclear waste is being transported through their areas? This is a vital issue. Is he aware that from Brunswick in Germany tomorrow a nuclear waste consignment will be arriving at Dover? It will be stored over the weekend at Winfrith and on Tuesday will arrive at Dounreay for reprocessing. Not one authority has been advised about that. It is wrong that we should have to reply on voluntary information in such an extremely important matter.
Mr. MacGregor: I shall look into the point with my right hon. Friends and endeavour to get a response to the hon. Lady.
Mr. David Shaw: Is my right hon. Friend aware that Dover port has special facilities for the safe transport of nuclear waste and is leading the country in making sure that the nuclear industry safety standards are fully adopted? Is he further aware that the port and officials at Dover make a major contribution to safety in this area? Will he, if he thinks it necessary, arrange for a debate on the matter?
Mr. MacGregor: My hon. Friend has made the point clearly and I am grateful to him for doing so, in view of which I do not think a debate is necessary.
Mr. Harry Ewing: I urge the Leader of the House to reconsider the answer he gave to the shadow Leader of the House about the possibility of a statement being made by the Home Secretary next week on the Brixton prison break-out. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that two allegations were made in the programme in question? One was about the alleged involvement of the special branch. The other—equally damaging and important—was the allegation that the Home Office knew about the police involvement. The right hon. Gentleman seems to be saying that, as we would expect of the British police, when a serious allegation is made, the chief constable of one force arranges for a senior officer of another to investigate the allegations, and everything about that investigation is laid bare for the public to see.
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman should ask a question.
Mr. Ewing: Just as the Home Secretary used the prison officers as a scapegoat for the break-out—
Mr. Speaker: Order. That is a matter for debate; it is not a question.
Mr. MacGregor: I have nothing to add to the point that I made about the statement. The hon. Gentleman's allegation about my right hon. Friend is absurd and wrong.
Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: As returning stolen goods is different from aid, will my right hon. Friend ensure that, when the Foreign Secretary makes a statement on the return of the gold stolen by the Labour Government with the assistance of the then leaders of the Liberal party and is replaced in the Bank of England to the order of the Governments of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, that statement is not confused with an agreement on giving aid, which is a wholly different matter?
Mr. MacGregor: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is sitting beside me and has heard my hon. Friend's question.
Mr. John P. Smith: I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to early-day motion 220.
[That this House is dismayed at the failure of Her Majesty's Customs and Excise to provide adequate services at Cardiff-Wales Airport; considers it to be an absolute dereliction of duty to fail to provide continuous customs monitoring of international flights into the airport; notes
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that travellers are advised to ring the Customs Office at Barry Maritime Docks in the event of their having anything to declare; and, given the potential danger of terrorist activity, drug smuggling and other illegal activities, demands the immediate restoration of a Jill customs service forthwith.]
May we have an early debate on the restructuring that is taking place in Her Majesty's Customs and Excise which has left Wales's international airport without customs and passport control? With regular flights arriving from Amsterdam, Miami and Cyprus, it raises serious questions about increases in terrorist activity, drug smuggling and other illegal activities. That will worry hon. Members on both sides of the House, and we should discuss it at the earliest opportunity.
Mr. MacGregor: I assure the hon. Gentleman that Customs continues to monitor international flights into the airport. Customs staff will continue to attend and challenge passengers on the basis of the assessed risks of illegal importations of, for example, drugs, obscene material and the instruments of terrorism to which he referred.
Mr. Ivan Lawrence: Although we are a parliamentary democracy and would expect to take nearly every final decision in this place, is there not a body of respectable constitutional opinion that says that, if we propose to transfer the democratic accountability from a Westminster Parliament to an unelected European Commission, or even an elected European Parliament, the British people are entitled to take a view on the matter? Furthermore, is my right hon. Friend aware that we are unable to vote on that matter—
Mr. Speaker: Order. That is a question of debate. The hon. and learned Gentleman must not make a speech that he might make if I were to call him.
Mr. Lawrence: I do not think that I shall be called, Mr. Speaker. Moreover, even if I were called, there is no opportunity to vote on the issue. May we have a debate next week or as soon as possible to consider whether we should have a referendum at any stage and in what circumstances?
Mr. MacGregor: Those are obviously matters that can be discussed in today's debate, so I see no need for a further debate. I entirely share the views which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister expressed this afternoon.
Dr. Kim Howells: Will the Leader of the House consider allocating time to look at planning requirements as they affect former nationalised industries such as the regional electricity boards, which continue to behave as though they were not in business for profit? They position their pylons anywhere they choose and act as though they were still the strategic industry that they were once defined as.
Mr. MacGregor: The hon. Gentleman must use the time available to him in the normal way to debate that matter. I see no opportunity to debate it in Government time.
Mr. Richard Tracey: The hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) asked about the economy of London. May I draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to the further deterioration in the

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state of local government in the London borough of Lambeth? A Labour woman councillor has suddenly resigned in mysterious circumstances in St. Martin's ward and the council is now seeking to block information to the public. Will my right hon. Friend ask the Secretary of State for the Environment to investigate the matter and make a statement to the House about the deepening trough of local government in Labour-controlled parts of London?
Mr. MacGregor: I shall certainly draw my hon. Friend's point to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
Mr. Bob Cryer: May we have a statement next week on the working of the Crossbows Act 1987, which was enacted after a number of serious incidents? The Act limits the possession of crossbows to those over the age of 17. In view of the serious incident that took place last night in Bradford, may we have a statement on the working of the Act to examine the possibility of a licensing system to curb even further the possession of such potentially highly dangerous weapons and to prevent a repetition of last night's attack?
Mr. MacGregor: I cannot promise a statement, but the hon. Gentleman knows that it will be possible for him to raise the matter at other times, such as on the Adjournment. I shall draw his remarks to the attention of my right hon. Friend.
Mr. Paul Flynn: Will the Leader of the House end the continuing denial of ready access to important information brought about by the Government's failure to publish in an accessible form the answers to hon. Members' questions to executive agencies? Such information is available only in the splendid publication produced by my office with, this month, the help of the Rowntree Trust. It is nonsense that it should be published by private enterprise and an outside charity. When will the Leader of the House publish the answers to such questions in a supplement to Hansard?
Mr. MacGregor: I have seen a number of comments that have been made on the subject, including those by the Select Committees. The Government have been considering how to make available improved access to the information. I shall make an announcement very shortly.
Sir Richard Body: Will my right hon. Friend reconsider the answer that he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Norris)? What on earth will our constituents think of parliamentary democracy if so many of us are deprived of the opportunity of debating the subject?
Mr. MacGregor: In the run-up to the Maastricht negotiations, we have endeavoured to enable hon. Members to debate the matter in as wide and lengthy a manner as possible in the House. Obviously, there has to be some limit to the length of debates, but by extending last night's debate I endeavoured to allow as many Members as possible to contribute.
Mr. Andrew Faulds rose—
Mr. Speaker: Was the hon. Member present for the business statement?
Mr. Faulds: Yes, all the way through. I did doze off once or twice.
Will the Leader of the House urge the Prime Minister to use his powers to remove from the board of trustees of national institutions those guilty of criminal offences? I refer of course to Gerald Ronson, who was appointed by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor.
Mr. MacGregor: I do not think that there will be a statement or debate on that matter next week.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. As the House knows, I dislike cutting short business questions. I shall allow them to continue until 4.10 pm, and I hope to call everyone. However, Members should make their questions brief.
Mr. James Couchman: In view of the serious deterioration of the services provided by Network SouthEast on the Kent link and Kent coast lines which is causing serious dislocation and discomfort to my constituents and many other people, will my right hon. Friend ask the Secretary of State for Transport to make a statement next week on what plans he has to improve those services urgently?
Mr. MacGregor: I shall draw my hon. Friend's remarks to the attention of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State. However, I do not think that there will be an opportunity for a statement on the subject next week.
Mr. Robert G. Hughes: Will my right hon. Friend arrange a debate on the police next week to enable the House to send congratulations to Harrow police who, through their calm and efficient work yesterday, brought a siege at Pinn medical centre, in my constituency, to a peaceful conclusion? A debate would enable hon. Members to congratulate and thank PC David Nicholls, who, although a married man with two children, offered to take the place of the hostage at great risk to himself.
Mr. MacGregor: I am sure that the House agrees with the sentiments expressed by my hon. Friend. I am glad that he has had an opportunity to make the point.
Mr. David Sumberg: May we have a debate next week on local government to give me the opportunity to point out that, following its disastrous investment of £6·5 million in BCCI, Bury's Labour council now proposes to close three old people's homes? Is that not an absolute disgrace and a foretaste of things to come if Labour is ever given power in this country?
Mr. MacGregor: My hon. Friend is right about that being a foretaste of things to come if Labour ever comes to power. I am glad to say that I do not think that it will. My hon. Friend makes his point powerfully, and there is no need for a debate next week to take it further.
Mr. Simon Burns: Will my right hon. Friend consider finding time in the not-too-distant future for a debate on parliamentary language? There is a pressing need for a debate in view of the petulant outburst by the Leader of the Opposition.
Mr. MacGregor: I think that that is a matter for you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: I think that it is, and I draw the attention of the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) to Peterborough's column in today's issue of The Daily Telegraph.
Mr. John Marshall: Would my right hon. Friend arrange an early debate on the work of the national health service trust hospitals? Is he aware that, following the good news from Guy's hospital last week, it has been reported that since it became an NHS trust the Royal Free Trust hospital, which serves part of my constituency, has been able to increase the number of patients it treats and reduce its waiting lists? Any debate on NHS trusts will have to take place in Government time and not in Opposition time.
Mr. MacGregor: I am sure that we shall have an opportunity in future to debate the work of NHS trusts. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that these are important matters and that the trusts are already demonstrating the value of the change that we made. There will not be a debate next week, but I am sure that we shall have other opportunities to debate the subject.
Mr. William Cash: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that to the people of this country the freedom of the press is every bit as important as democratic accountability? Does he know that at the moment there is a campaign throughout Europe and in all the other member states to preserve the freedom of the press? Is he aware that a British agency was recently summoned to the Commission and told that if it did not withdraw from that campaign its Commission account would be stopped forthwith? Does my right hon. Friend agree that this is a severe —
Mr. Speaker: Order. We are on the subject of the business for next week.
Mr. Cash: Will my right hon. Friend consider making sure that the issue of the freedom of the press in relation to the European Community is debated as soon as possible?
Mr. MacGregor: I am sure that my hon. Friend will wish to pursue that matter in other ways. I cannot see the prospect of a debate next week.

Points of Order
4.7 pm
Mr. Roy Hattersley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, concerning the statement made to the House by the Home Secretary on 8 July. The statement purported to describe the break-out from Brixton prison on the previous day. We now know that material, crucial facts were omitted from the Home Secretary's statement and account of what happened. As a result, the country was not so much informed as misinformed about the matter.
The Home Secretary has had many opportunities to rectify what I shall describe as his errors of omission. He has not done so. As you well know, Mr. Speaker, attempts have been made to require him to make a corrective and further statement to the House. All efforts have failed. The House and the country will make their own judgment about the reason for the Home Secretary's behaviour. What can be done to ensure that a report is made to the House, both of the full facts and on the Home Secretary's conduct?
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not think that I need any help on this. Hon. Members heard the Leader of the House say that an investigation has been set up. In due course the Home Secretary will have to make a decision about the matter.
Dr. John Cunningham: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is unsatisfactory for the Government to hide behind an inquiry into the involvement of Staffordshire police? The point at issue is the behaviour of the Home Secretary in the House. The House is entitled to a statement from the Home Secretary, who ought to be responsible to the House of Commons.
Mr. Speaker: That point was raised by the hon. Member with the Leader of the House. It is not a matter for me.
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John MacGregor): Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. As a separate point has been raised, I should make it clear that the Home Secretary has not misled the House and the allegations about him are wrong. There are some security matters involved in this. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) has been offered a full briefing on Privy Council terms, and he has refused it.
Mr. Peter Archer: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It may not be within your knowledge that this week my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Banks) and I sought to table parliamentary questions to the Home Secretary on this matter, but it transpired that there was a blanket refusal to answer questions on any matter relating to the secret service, irrespective of how divorced they were from current operations. While I fully understand the reluctance of a Minister to give information about operations currently in progress, as that was not what we were seeking to elicit, if the Minister comes to the House and makes a statement purporting to deal fully with a matter, is he entitled to hide behind a blanket refusal that he has virtually waived? If not, does the House have any remedy?
Mr. Speaker: I have no responsibility for answers to questions. This is not a matter for me.
Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, in answer to a point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook), you said:
"I have just said that I think 'jerk' is not among the list of unparliamentary expressions but I asked the Leader of the Opposition to refine it."—[Official Report, 20 November 1991; Vol 199, c.283.]
I want to make a submission to you, Mr. Speaker, which is of some substance. The list to which you refer only gives examples of what, in the past, Mr. Speaker has ruled to be unparliamentary expressions. That list has grown up by Mr. Speaker ruling each time—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. I cannot hear the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: The list has grown up, Mr. Speaker, by your predecessors ruling each time a new expression is used which, in the opinion of Mr. Speaker, is unparliamentary. It is important that you should remind the House that that list does not and cannot constrain Mr. Speaker not to rule that expressions which are grossly offensive are not unparliamentary purely because they have not appeared on the list in "Erskine May" before.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has raised a serious point concerned with a judgment that I made yesterday. He is correct in saying that there is no list in "Erskine May". It was removed some time ago, because many expressions, such as "cheeky young pup", are no longer considered to be offensive. I said yesterday that I did not think that "jerk" was an unparliamentary expression. I was not absolutely certain what the word meant, but I found out from the Peterborough column today that it means a useless person but also covers a "hornyhead" and a "chubb-like fish".
Mr. Hattersley: Speaking in more or less that capacity, Mr. Speaker, I wish to refer to what the Leader of the House said about the Home Secretary's offer to me to discuss in Privy Council terms the matters with which I was concerned in my original point of order. I want to make it clear that that offer was made, but I refused it as I did not think that this was a matter that could be discussed in private by a coterie of senior Members of Parliament. I felt that it was a matter for the House and for the country.
Mr. Speaker: That has now been made clear.

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(3) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.).

VALUE ADDED TAX
That the Value Added Tax (Buildings and Land) Order 1991 (S.I., 1991, No. 2569) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.—[Mr. MacGregor.]
Question agreed to.

Orders of the Day

  European Community (Intergovernmental Conferences)
  [SECOND DAY]
  [Relevant document: Minutes of Evidence taken before the Foreign Affairs Committee on 19th November ( House of Commons Paper 35-i)]
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on amendment to Question [20 November]:
  That this House, believing it is in Britain's interests to continue to be at the heart of the European Community and able to shape its future and that of Europe as a whole, endorses the constructive negotiating approach adopted by Her Majesty's Government in the Inter-Governmental Conferences on Economic and Monetary Union and on Political Union; and urges them to work for an agreement at the forthcoming European Council at Maastricht which avoids the development of a federal Europe, enables this country to exert the greatest influence on the economic evolution of the Community while preserving the right of Parliament to decide at a future date whether to adopt a single currency, on issues of Community competence concentrates the development of action on those issues which cannot be handled more effectively at national level and, in particular, avoids intrusive Community measures in social areas which are matters for national decision, develops a European security policy compatible with NATO and co-operation in foreign policy which safeguards this country's national interest, increases the accountability of the Commission, enhances the rule of law in the Community including improved implementation, enforcement and compliance with Community legislation, improves co-operation between European governments in the fight against drugs, terrorism and cross-border crime, and through these policies secures the long-term interests of the United Kingdom.—[The Prime Minister.]
  Which amendment was: to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
  'regrets that Her Majesty's Government's preoccupation with divisions in its own Party has meant that in the Inter-Governmental Conferences is has not taken the negotiating approach necessary to ensure that the United Kingdom exercises decisive influence on the future of the Community in ways which will help to advance the living and working standards of the people of this country in company with other peoples of Europe; calls upon Her Majesty's Government to work for an agreement at the European Council which ensures inclusion of the Social Charter, qualified majority voting on social and environmental matters, powers for the European Parliament to hold the Commission to account in ways that complement the role of national parliaments, decision-making at the level—local, regional, national or Community—where maximum democratic control is at all times exercised, foreign and security policy co-operation without the development of a European Community military role, widening of the Community as rapidly as practicable, co-operation to combat terrorism and other crime, and strengthened powers for ECOFIN as the politically responsible counterpart to any European Central Bank system; and urges the Government to work to secure agreement to, and adopt policies for, high levels of employment, sustainable non-inflationary growth, balanced regional and national economic development and social cohesion, and for the fundamental reform of the CAP, in order to achieve real economic convergence in the years leading to economic and monetary union and a single currency as the essential foundation for those changes and to safeguard the long-term interests of the people of the United Kingdom.'—[Mr. Kinnock.]
  Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
  Mr. Speaker: I have already said that 82 right hon. and hon. Members are seeking to participate. I shall put a limit on speeches between 7 and 9 o'clock, but I ask those who are fortunate enough to be called before that time to bear the 10-minute limit in mind.
  Mr. Bob Cryer: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, I raised a point of order about whether an amendment to the amendment in the name of the official Opposition would be eligible to be called before 10 o'clock. Since that now appears on the Order Paper, I should be grateful for your comments.
  Mr. Speaker: I have not found it possible to select it.
  4.14 pm
  The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Douglas Hurd): This debate is crucial for us and it is a crucial part of the debate in the Community. It is natural for the European Community to consider from time to time its institutions and its working methods to see whether they can be bettered, and that is the purpose of the two intergovernmental conferences leading to Maastricht.
  My own view is that the conferences come rather too soon after the last one. The previous examination led to the Single European Act, which was signed in 1986 and came into force just four years ago. If we had waited three years longer, the single market would have been up and running, one or two new members might have come in and we would have been able to see more clearly the future shape of eastern Europe. But the Community decided to start last year and, that done, we in Britain, led by my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher), rightly decided that we would take a full and energetic part in the two conferences.
  As Mr. Delors often says, Britain is the only member state in which there is a lively and sometimes passionate debate on Europe. That is normal here. We felt it again yesterday and it is an asset to Europe as a whole, but I also think that the weakness of our debate is that it is sometimes too defensive. We too often represent ourselves as in some way under siege, as if we were concerned only about the pace at which we yield to opinions and interests across the channel which are basically unsatisfactory and hostile. That defensive note is well astray if one looks at some of the main decisions of the Community in recent years, many of which owe a great deal to the debate in Britain and to British proposals.
  First, there was the Fontainebleau settlement in 1984 where Britain obtained a rebate and the Community got a fairer means of financing itself. The Community's budgetary system is still far from rational in the way in which it distributes resources, but the most glaring injustice of Britain's unacceptable net contribution was resolved by that agreement. My right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley played it right. She argued, she argued hard, and she signed once she had a good agreement for Britain and for Europe.
  Mr. Dennis Skinner rose—
  Mr. Cryer rose—
  Mr. Hurd: I shall get on a bit before I give way to the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner).
  Or take the impetus for the single market through the Single European Act to make the job of selling throughout the Community easier for all businesses in the
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  Community, to increase the choice and the quality available to all the Community's 340 million consumers. Once again, my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley argued, argued hard, and signed once she had a good agreement.
  I am told that there were 29 outstanding issues on the day that my right hon. Friend went to the summit in Luxembourg in 1985. She sorted those issues out—perhaps, I do not know, with a little help from her Foreign Secretary of the day—and the agreement was signed. We are still in the arguing stage before Maastricht, but we hope that the rest will follow and the result will be satisfactory.
  The last example was the opening up of the Community to the emerging democracies in central and eastern Europe. That began as soon as the east began to choose democracy in 1989. It is now accepted by everybody that we started with trade and co-operation agreements—limited but important access to Community markets to countries which had overnight lost their biggest market in the Soviet Union—but as democracy and the market economy took hold, more help was needed. My right hon. Friend proposed the association agreements. I pressed for an early completion. We obtained a political commitment to finish negotiations in time for their entry into force in the new year, and those negotiations—with Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia—are on course.
  I have used those three examples because they are examples of undoubtedly good achievements by the Community which stem from our initiatives, and our persistent pressure, in this country.
  Mr. Skinner: I think that we ought to have the full picture before the Foreign Secretary concludes what he has to say about initiatives. The truth is that, although we were indeed promised barrel loads of money back when the last Prime Minister went to negotiate about the money, this country has paid more than £14,000 million to the common market since that date. The United Kingdom taxpayer has been handing over money to the tune of £18 a week for every family in Britain to prop up the discredited common agriculture policy. Let us have the full story, not just part of it.
  Mr. Hurd: That is the hon. Gentleman's speech. What his party's Front-Bench spokesmen propose would increase the burden substantially, while the actions of my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley would lighten it substantially. The hon. Gentleman's intervention has proved my point.
  The Leader of the Opposition described us as being stuck in the defensive mud. I think that I have proved that that is not true, but I fear that something similar can be said about the amazing speech that the right hon. Gentleman made yesterday. At times, it seemed as though Conservative Members were pouring salvoes into a grievously stricken vessel. Listening to the right hon. Gentleman, I came to the conclusion that we would never hear him make a good speech about Europe, partly because he finds the subject matter confusing—I do not criticise him for that; I often share the feeling—but mainly because he is fatally weighed down by his own past. The vessel is waterlogged before it even leaves the harbour.
  Labour has changed its policy on Europe seven times in recent years. It might have been expected that, according

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  to the rules of mere chance, Labour Members would light on some good arguments at some stage. Not at all: they are consistent only in that all their arguments are wrong.
  When the Community was anathema to Labour its most attractive facets were the ones that it attacked and detested, such as the commitment to freer trade and competition. Three years ago, the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) said that the Single European Act was a
  "breathtaking reduction in British sovereignty which the Labour party fought tooth and nail to prevent."
  Today, he is about to call for a breathtaking reduction in British sovereignty which the Labour party will fight tooth and nail to surrender.
  What attract both the right hon. Member for Gorton and the Leader of the Opposition, now that they have learnt to love the Community, are precisely the aspects of some Commissioners' instincts that are the most unlovable and the most dangerous for Britain—the itch to intervene in industry, the itch to regulate at the expense of jobs and the itch to impose worker representatives on company boards. The Labour party rejected the Community for the wrong reasons, and now embraces it for the wrong reasons. That is why Labour is wholly unconvincing on the subject—incredible, even—both at home and abroad.
  Mr. Tam Dalyell: What is the Foreign Secretary going to do about my itch to bring about a solution to the problem of RECHAR additionality?
  Mr. Hurd: I knew that the hon. Gentleman would raise that point, and I am therefore particularly glad that my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury dealt with it at length in his winding-up speech last night. My hon. Friend advised the hon. Gentleman—particularly as a Scottish Member—to address himself to Commissioner Milian, and to try to get him to change his indefensible policy.
  Mr. Andrew Faulds: Will the Foreign Secretary give way?
  Mr. Hurd: I would rather get on. The hon. Gentleman has already had a go this afternoon.
  While I am being a tiny bit controversial, I should like to add a word on the proposals for a referendum simply to underline the answer given earlier by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Naturally, there have often been arguments in the House about referendums. I am instinctively against them. In our parliamentary democracy, the line of democratic accountability runs from the Government to the House and from the House to those who send us here. If we take ourselves out of that line because the decisions are particularly important or difficult, it seems that we are dodging part of our responsibility.
  I respect the counter-argument, although I disagree with those who say that a referendum should be part of our constitution. Those, such as Dicey, who favour that argue consistently that it should be a considered change and that there is no case for introducing a referendum because of a particular issue.
  Nowhere has the case against introducing a referendum on a particular issue been argued with more energy than in the House on 11 March 1975 by my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley. She led us into the Lobby against
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  Harold Wilson's device of a referendum on Europe. In that speech, she quite correctly said that Dicey could he used on both sides of the argument. She also quoted Lord Attlee's saying that the referendum was a device of "demagogues and dictators". I am just a little sad that my right hon. Friend seems to have become a shade wobbly on the subject since then.
  Mr. Norman Tebbit: Does not my right hon. Friend understand that, at the time of the discussions on whether we should enter the European Community, it was possible for an elector to vote for a party that had a chance of forming a Government which would reject the proposition or a Government that would accept it? Does not my right hon. Friend understand that at the next general election the voter who wishes to vote against the proposed treaties will not be able to find a party to vote for that has a remote hope of forming a Government?
  Mr. Hurd: I do not think that my right hon. Friend is historically correct. In 1975, the leaders of all parties were in favour of a yes vote. Therefore, the position is not as my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) described it.
  I am not dismissing the argument, because it is a serious argument that has been suggested seriously. As I have said, I believe that in a parliamentary democracy the line of accountability runs as I have described it. It runs through us and we are responsible to people who can, rightly, throw us out if we pursue policies with which they disagree. However mighty, parties have to pay careful attention to that.
  Mr. Ivan Lawrence: Will my right hon. Friend accept that since we have already had a referendum on the European Community and referendums on devolution, referendums are now part of the British constitution?
  Mr. Hurd: I may be wrong, but I suspect that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) may have joined me in voting against the idea of referendums on those matters. For the reasons that I have given, I do not accept that they are part of our constitution. I do not think that it is the right way to proceed in a parliamentary democracy.
  We shall face decisions and tough choices at Maastricht. Part of the value of the debate is the chance that it gives to send a signal—I hope a clear signal—of the chief concerns of the British Parliament as we all enter the final stages of this negotiation.
  We want to take advantage of the negotiations, not defensively, but to press the Community down the path that we think most sensible. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said, that means putting ourselves at the heart of the Community, persuading different partners on different issues and using a style and a language that make it possible to persuade others of the value of our ideas for the future of Europe. I want to illustrate that with three principles that we regard as necessary for the Community and on which I believe the House will agree. We want to ensure the rule of law and a level playing field, we want to strengthen Europe's voice worldwide and we want an open and liberal Community.
  I want first to consider the proper application of Community law. When we agree in this country to do something, we stick by that agreement. When the Community agrees new legislation, we have procedures in

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  this country which turn that legislation quickly into British law and our Government and courts enforce it. One of the main criticisms of the Community often heard in the House, and one that I have heard in my constituency, is that this country acts in that way, but others do not.
  Our record in obeying our legal commitments is second to none. The most recent figures released by the Commission show only one European Court of Justice judgment outstanding against us. In delivering a recent judgment, the court referred to Britain's exemplary conduct in complying with EC legislation. We would regard it as progress if others began to compete with our record. Some lag far behind—12 for Germany, 13 for Belgium and 37 for Italy.
  At present, the only sanction against a member state that fails to comply with a judgment from the European Court of Justice is to bring that state before the court again. The present draft treaty will give substance to that second appearance by allowing the court to impose a fine on any member state found not to have taken the necessary measures to comply with its earlier judgment. That was our proposal and it is accepted. It will give the court the teeth that it needs to ensure compliance, and none too soon.
  Mr. Denzil Davies: That is an important point and according to a recent judgment, individuals may now be able to sue Governments who fail to carry out directives. What would happen if the House genuinely voted not to accept a directive? Would the British Government then be fined?
  Mr. Hurd: A judgment was given against the Italians a few days ago, but I have not yet had an opportunity to study it.
  Mr. Nicholas Budgen: Do not all supranational bodies of an incipiently federal nature have some form of power to enforce the of Neural decisions of the group, whether through an international police force or international army? There is no suggestion that the Community could ever use force to enforce its decisions against a member state.
  Mr. Hurd: That is why the proposal that I have just outlined is important. It gives the court the power to fine for the first time. If my hon. Friend is suggesting a corps of Euro Commissioners to enforce that, that would be a new and interesting suggestion, but I am not sure whether he is suggesting that.
  We must also strengthen the protection of the citizen. Chancellor Kohl is quite right to argue, as he did at the last European summit, that the European citizen needs better protection against the international criminal, the Mafia, the drug trafficker and the terrorist. When I was Home Secretary, we proposed a European drugs intelligence unit, and that is now being set up. The German Chancellor wanted to go further and establish a Europol. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday, we agree with that and we will support him. However, there is no need to impose a Community structure on that European work among police forces and agencies. It is important to concentrate on the substance of the matter, which is the protection of the citizen, rather than on the procedure and jurisdiction.
  Sir Teddy Taylor: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Hurd: I promise to give way to my hon. Friend later.
  One of the most difficult problems that Europe has to cope with is the increase in asylum seekers. In order to protect the sysem and to safeguard genuine refugees, we must prevent abuse of the system—hence my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary's Asylum Bill. In recent years. there has been an increase in such abuse. When an applicant fails in one country, he crosses a frontier and tries again. Last year, intergovernmentally—with agreement between Governments—we agreed the Dublin convention to put an end to that, but we must do more.
  The 1951 United Nations convention was not written and ratified to protect the opportunists. The problem is a European problem. We want to see the Twelve better equipped to respond, with better co-ordination, but not central direction.
  All that comes within the work of the Trevi group, in which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary joins. The work of that group shows that intergovernmental co-operation is no less effective and no less European for being outside the framework of the treaty of Rome—outside the jurisdiction of the European Court. The Community—the Commission—does not need competence in order for an initiative to work.
  Let us concentrate on the substance. I believe that police forces work best together when they work directly together. In any case, given our differing legal traditions and judicial systems, the case is simply not made for generalised supranational enforcement. Member states need to remain responsible for law and order on their territory. It is certainly right for there to be more intense international co-operation. We have a long way to go before we can be sure that that is adequate.
  Sir Teddy Taylor: As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary referred to citizenship, will he say clearly whether the Government support the proposal on page 15 of the Dutch draft article A? It proposes that
  "European union citizenship is hereby established"?
  It would help the House if the Government would make it clear whether they support or do not support the establishment of European union citizenship for all member states.
  Mr. Hurd: It is in addition to, and support does not in any way detract from, British citizenship. The only proposals are ones on which I gave evidence to the Select Committee the other day and which relate to the right of EC citizens in local and European elections, but not in national elections.
  Mr. Michael Shersby: My right hon. Friend will be aware of the views of some members of the European Parliament that Europol and the work of the Trevi group could be scrutinised by that body. Does my right hon. Friend agree, however, that they are adequately scrutinised by the Select Committees of the House and that that is the right place for them to be scrutinised and for their work to be reported to the House?
  Mr. Hurd: Yes, I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. The point I am trying to make in this part of my speech and, indeed, in our negotiations is that it is perfectly possible and often better for that kind of European working together to be based on co-operation between Governments, and therefore based on responsibility to national Parliaments, rather than under the structure of

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  the treaty of Rome. The same principle applies to the strengthening of European foreign policy. We hope that there will be agreement about that at Maastricht.
  Already, the practice in the Community goes beyond the co-ordination envisaged and enshrined in the Single European Act. We often commit ourselves—not because of any legal obligation but because of common sense—to joint action in many matters because it makes sense to put the combined weight of Europe behind our shared objectives. Once we have agreed on that in a particular subject, we honour the commitments that we have decided.
  There is great advantage for us in that system and in making sure that our partners do the same. There is positive advantage in securing obligations on our partners in cases where we have decided unanimously—by consensus—to work together. That is the essence of the proposal on the table.
  There are no grand schemes to do away with national initiatives, and there is no attempt to cast aside the national interest in this sphere, in the hope that an undefined European interest can take its place.
  No one, for example, is proposing a system that would prevent Britain from liberating the Falklands, or Belgium and France from sending paratroops to Zaire to rescue their fellow citizens. No one is proposing that any substantial decision on common foreign and security policy should he taken except unanimously. Our aim is a common foreign and security policy on issues where we find that we agree unanimously, always allowing for national freedom of action in other matters.
  No one is attempting to foist a foreign policy on us. The principle of joint action decided by unanimity is accepted. What is proposed—this was discussed yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and by the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) —is that secondary decisions—decisions to implement measures decided unanimously—might be taken by majority voting, to speed things up.
  We are not persuaded that the distinction between the original decision, which everyone agrees must be taken unanimously, and the implementing measures can be made to stick. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) criticised a proposal, and I am trying to answer the point that he raised.
  I endorse the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on that subject yesterday, with which my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley agreed. He said that there was no satisfactory answer to the question of how one distinguishes between the original measure taken by unanimity and the implementing or secondary measure, adding:
  "The onus must be on those who want to change the existing arrangements to justify that change. Thus far they have not managed to do so."—[Official Report, 20 November 1991; Vol. 199, c. 276.]
  That is the Government's position, which I explained to our partners when we were negotiating at the Dutch seaside last week.
  As to defence, the story is straightforward. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister spelled it out yesterday. NATO will remain. Europe will not replace or duplicate NATO's arrangements for the defence of Europe. There
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  are, as my right hon. Friend said, still differences on that, but there is also much common ground, and it has increased as a result of the NATO summit a week ago.
  Last month, we put forward with the Italians ideas on European defence, proposing that the Western European Union should be vehicle for a European defence identity. That idea is now accepted by our partners. We proposed also ways in which the WEU could be linked to the alliance and to the common foreign and security policy, in order to strengthen Europe's defence capacity within and outside the alliance.
  There is not agreement yet on the nature of that policy, and that will be crucial in reaching a general agreement at Maastricht.
  Sir Patrick Duffy: Yesterday, the Prime Minister confirmed in the House that the Franco-German proposal had suffered a serious rebuff at Rome. Is the Foreign Secretary assured, as a result of further bilaterals with the French, that—even within those parameters that the Prime Minister was largely responsible for drawing up in Rome—the French may not yet return at Maastricht with a further attempt to separate Europe's defence responsibilities from NATO?
  Mr. Hurd: I cannot answer that question, but if they do, we shall resist it. The defence principles under which we are operating are absolutely clear. They have been set out several times, including at Rome, by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. There are three of them, and I believe that they will serve to reassure the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Sir P. Duffy). First, any common defence policy must be genuinely compatible with NATO. It is not enough simply to say that NATO should be preserved. Any proposals for European forces should not cut across NATO's sole responsibility for the defence of NATO territory.
  Secondly, the WEU, which is the instrument of the European defence identity, should be linked in different ways to foreign policy and to the alliance, but be subordinate to neither. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister emphasised that point yesterday.
  Thirdly—this is of particular importance to the United States—European defence co-operation should not marginalise our other allies, or present them with decisions simply to take or to leave. Anyone who knows about such matters—such as the hon. Member for Attercliffe, or my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East—knows that those points are crucial, and we intend to hold by them.
  The third objective of an open and liberal Europe, which I sketched at the beginning of my remarks, is one on which my right hon. and hon. Friends are also wholly at one. To maintain a liberal Europe, we must maintain the free market thrust of existing Community policies—in particular, the preservation of the single market programme, backed by the tough new competition powers, which Sir Leon Brittan is exercising most effectively. If Community competence is to be extended, we must avoid any interventionist tilt.
  If we are to maintain an open Europe, we must ensure also that, after Maastricht, the Community maintains and expands a welcoming approach to enlargement. We welcome the prospect of early accession negotiations for Austria and Sweden, which are themselves a powerful

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  reason for concluding the Maastricht conference if we can. I hope that Poland. Hungary, and Czechoslavakia will be in by at least the end of the decade.
  Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: And Norway?
  Mr. Hurd: Norway has not yet made a decision on whether she wants to enter the Community. She held a referendum that went the wrong way, but my hon. Friend is right in thinking that Norway may find an opportunity to reconsider. I do not yet know.
  Mr. Michael Grylls: My right hon. Friend passed rather quickly over the question of the internal market. Will he return to that point for a moment? Many people think that proper enforcement of internal market legislation is of prime importance now. That is what business men want. What concerns me is that the Community appears to he moving on to new programmes before it has successfully completed its existing agenda.
  Mr. Hurd: There is a lot of truth in that. That is one reason why I said at the beginning of my remarks that the intergovernmental conference has come too soon. I n two or three years, we shall have completed our work on the single market. I agree that the existing presidency, the next, and the British presidency at the very end of 1992 ought not to forget that the overwhelming need is to complete the single market. I hope that the proposal that I outlined concerning enforcement by the European Court on lagging or non-complying states will help to deal with the problem that my hon. Friend the Member for Surrey, North-West (Mr. Grylls) mentioned.
  As to enlargement, Britain benefited after some delay from the fact that the European Community is bound by the treaty of Rome to be open to European newcomers, and we are clear that it is our duty and in our real interest to ensure that the Community's benefits are available to all states qualifying for membership.
  Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Hurd: May I move on just a little, and then give way?
  Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman: The point will have gone by then. Earlier, my right hon. Friend dealt comprehensively with what would happen if Governments failed in the European Court of Justice. My hon. Friend the Member for Surrey, North-West (Mr. Grylls) raised the question of the internal market. How does my right hon. Friend propose to stamp out the fraud that disfigures the Common Market?
  Mr. Hurd: That is one area in which we should encourage the European Parliament to be more active. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister spelled that out yesterday, and I will not follow in his footsteps. However, that issue is one on which the European Parliament could quite properly concentrate its energies. The proposals sketched by my right hon. Friend yesterday are designed to equip the European Parliament in that respect.
  Our basic concern in the negotiations is flexibility. We want—this intention is reaffirmed in document after document—to transform relations as a whole among member states into a European union. Peoples grow closer
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  when their Governments remove the barriers between them, not when their Governments try to dissolve into one.
  I believe that the House is pretty well at one on that point, which is crucial to the negotiations. Some things are best done by the Community. Others are best done by co-operating between Governments. That distinction is crucial. On 30 September, in the negotiations on political union in which I am involved, there was an important debate on that point. If things turn out right, that debate may turn out to have been a turning point.
  At that time, 10 member states, coming to the argument with different ideas, all concluded not to proceed with a draft put forward by the Dutch presidency, based on the proposition that all the changes agreed by the intergovernmental conferences should be agreed under one heading only—the Community, the treaty of Rome, and the institutions of the Community. The Dutch presidency wanted to bring it altogether into one pillar. The Dutch made that proposal in good faith, but a big majority of member states agreed on 30 September that that approach would not lead to a result at Maastricht. That may turn out to have been a crucial meeting.
  As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said, we accept that in some areas action is best taken by the Community under the treaty of Rome. Such matters include the environment, international transport policy and external trade, which is already undertaken by the Community. But in others—
  Sir Russell Johnston rose—
  Mr. Hurd: No, I want to get on.
  In other areas, however, such as foreign policy and law and order issues, it makes more sense to strengthen co-operation between individual Governments, who have to keep the last word for themselves and their Parliaments. The latest draft, based on the Luxembourg draft, preserves that distinction. It is based on the concept of separate pillars—the Community within the treaty of Rome, co-operation and joint action in foreign and security policy, co-operation in interior and justice matters, all under the guidance of the European Council.
  The last draft, which one could call the draft of the pillars, is far from perfect. Many right hon. and hon. Members yesterday correctly drew attention to its imperfections. We cannot accept it as it stands, for several important reasons which were spelled out yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. However, its basic structure is right—and that basic structure creates sadness among true federalists. We saw that in a speech made last week by the President of the European Parliament.
  The draft now on the table is not a draft that provides for federalism. That point was made eloquently, after I had sketched these notes, by the President of the European Commission yesterday when he criticised the present state of the negotiations, precisely because they were based on the principle that Europe could work well by means of co-operation between Governments. From our point of view, that is a considerable advance, but it is a sadness to him. The question for Maastricht is whether those two points can be reconciled.
  Sir Russell Johnston rose—
  Mr. Hurd: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman, but this must be the last time.
  Sir Russell Johnston: As the Foreign Secretary is talking about central Community institutions, does he agree that a big gap in the Government motion is that there is no reference whatsoever to the European Parliament?
  Mr. Hurd: The gap was filled by the Prime Minister's speech yesterday, which spelled out in some detail the role that we foresee for the European Parliament in non-legislative areas, such as dealing with fraud, which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Dame E. Kellett-Bowman), and the possibility of the negative assent procedure and what that should cover.
  The remaining reference to a "federal vocation" which the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) criticised yesterday, is an attempt to look forward wistfully to a day when we and others might have changed our minds and be ready to accept federal proposals. We do not ask—we cannot ask—any of our partners to renounce their hopes, but we are not ready to say that we will share them either now or in the future. In Europe there are many mansions and many ways of working together.
  Mr. Peter Shore rose—
  Mr. Hurd: I shall give way to the right hon. Gentleman because I referred to him.
  Mr. Shore: Does that mean that the reference in article W-whatever not only to a federal future, but to a new intergovernmental conference in 1996 for that very purpose, will be expunged?
  Mr. Hurd: There are no objections to looking at those matters again—[Interruption.] No. What would be objectionable would be to prejudge that now. Therefore, the present draft of the review clause attempts to prejudge it in a wistful way, and we cannot accept that prejudgment.
  My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister covered the subject headings of the negotiations in detail yesterday. I should like to finish with my answer to the question that was asked yesterday by several right hon. and hon. Members. Indeed, they answered it themselves. It is the crucial question, "What kind of Europe do we, the British Government, seek?"
  I usually see us as the craftsmen rather than the visionaries of Europe. At meeting after meeting, we are usually concerned with the practicalities, with the next step and the next few years, rather than with the larger scene of the indefinite future, but it is right that, from time to time, we should raise our sights and look into that future. Indeed, a debate of this substance should make us all think of the real interests of the constituents whom we are here to serve. I am quite clear that our constituents want to preserve our distinct character as a nation. Whatever the Opposition may now say, we respect and share that view.
  Our constituents have other expectations that they expect us to do our best to realise on their behalf. They want a rising standard of living, brought about by investment and through open markets. They might ask, if not tomorrow then the next day, whether that would be compatible with standing aside while others build an economic system without us. This is relevant to the points made yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Prime
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  Minister about economic and monetary union. Our constituents undoubtedly want Britain to have effective influence in the world. I am clear that, in many but not all sectors, that influence is best exerted in concert with our European partners.
  As has often been said in such debates—this was expressed well by my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell)—we have to help forward the new democracies of central and eastern Europe. We have to try to rescue the peoples of Yugoslavia—to the extent that we can—from their present chaos and bloodshed. We have to use any influence that is available to us to prevent the peoples of the Soviet Union going down a similar path towards anarchy and bankruptcy. To be honest, we cannot yet be sure how effective we will be in dealing with those problems by acting together, but one thing is absolutely certain—we shall be ineffective or worse if we try to work apart or in rivalry. For heaven's sake, that is one of the lessons of this century, and it has been dinned into me over and over again by the experiences of the past two years.
  Our constituents want clean air, clean rivers, forests and seas and they accept—overwhelmingly, I believe—that that means new kinds of work with our neighbours who share that air and that water. Our constituents want better protection against the international criminal. They want order to be introduced into the questions of immigration and asylum. Again, that means more intense work together—not under the treaty or the institutions of the Community, but between Community partners with similar problems.
  The question is not whether that European work together is needed for our constituents and their interests, but how it should be organised. That is what the negotiations are or should be about. We are looking for the right way of working together, and that right way will vary from sector to sector and from policy to policy. That is the sensible way of looking at the deepening of the Europe of 12. At the same time, we have to prepare urgently to widen that Europe until it becomes a Europe that welcomes all those in our continent who share our commitment to political democracy and the market economy.
  Several right hon. and hon. Members have spent more time at Community meetings and at meetings of political co-operation than I have, but I have done enough to have my share of memories of frustration and exasperation as the discussions go on and on, hour after hour, day after day.
  I am no blind worshipper of the Community and the way it works, but I recognise that we are trying to do something that is unique in history. There are no precedents in the history of, say, the United States, Germany, the Soviet Union or Canada that can serve us. We are trying, in the interests of our constituents, to bring together ancient and diverse countries. We are trying to find ways of pooling our efforts and our energies without smothering that diversity.
  That is difficult. It has never been done before and there are no pathfinders. It is not at all surprising that progress sometimes seems unsteady and that much argument accompanies that progress. But the need to find that way is compelling—in all the sectors that I have mentioned and in others. If we neglect that need or pretend that it does not exist; if we claim that isolation from that common European work is feasible or profitable for us, in my view

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  we are not defending the interests of our constituents, but deserting them. We are not preserving the strength of this country, but weakening it.
  I cannot tell the House—no one can—whether we shall succeed at Maastricht. If too much doctrine is pressed upon us, we shall have to say that we cannot accept it, but I am clear that we are right to make the effort, as has been set out in the motion tabled by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. We are right to put forward our arguments with all the persuasive force that we can muster and, with the support of the House tonight, we are right to work strenuously for those arguments to prevail.
  4.59 pm
  Mr. Gerald Kaufman: A debate such as this imposes a special obligation on those who take part in it. We must define not simply the position that the Government should take at Maastricht and not simply the outcome that we want. We must define the Europe that we want to see far beyond Maastricht and how we believe that the Maastricht summit can assist in achieving that Europe.
  Let us be clear that we should not think merely of the Europe of the Twelve. Twenty years ago, the European Economic Community was the Six. With the adhesion of the United Kingdom, Denmark and Ireland, it became the Nine. Since then, three further countries have joined. Four more have applied to join, including Sweden and Austria. Their membership, which cannot and should not be long delayed, will surely be followed by that of the remaining European Free Trade Association countries. By the middle of this decade, the European Community may be 18. It could soon afterwards be 20 or more.
  The narrow European Economic Community of the 1960s is developing into a wider European Community which could eventually stretch from the Atlantic to the Urals, from the Arctic Circle to the Bosphorus. It will be a wider Europe that is a community of sovereign states not artificially welded into a super-state. It will be a wider Europe that is a social Europe, with the protections of the social charter.
  It will be a Europe that recognises that transna tional commerce and industry, with all their powers, are tolerable only if there are effective mechanisms to safeguard employed people—men and women, their families and retired people—who might otherwise have no defence against the demands and requirements of vast corporations operating on a continental scale. That wider European Community will be a different Community from the one that we know today. Even if it is desirable, it will not be possible to hold it together through the tight control of a bureaucratic Commission.
  National sovereignty and popular sovereignty in a Europe so wide will require not only more effective national Parliaments but Europewide instruments to express and administer Europe. Such a Europe will require more deeply entrenched and pervasive democracy at both national and European levels. That is what the participants at Maastricht ought to think about and what the House should direct the Government to think about.
  Mr. Jonathan Sayeed: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Kaufman: I will give way in a moment.
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  How can an unprecedented association of nations which come together voluntarily govern itself effectively, responsibly and responsively?
  Mr. Sayeed: The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that the agenda of the United Kingdom civil service is set by Ministers of the Crown, whereas the European Commission has the sole right of initiative. In other words, an unelected body decides what it will consider. Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that acceptable or democratic? If not, what would the Opposition do?
  Mr. Kaufman: It is neither acceptable nor democratic. In a moment I shall say what the Opposition propose. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for intervening on that point.
  Mr. Tony Marlow: I should be grateful for some clarification. I have been looking at the Opposition amendment. I have had a little difficulty with it. It is probably my fault. There are 31 lines in it, which makes it somewhat longer than the Government motion, which the right hon. Gentleman criticised. The Opposition amendment talks about achieving a single currency as an essential foundation. Does that mean that every Opposition Member who supports the amendment tonight is fully in favour of a single currency?
  Mr. Kaufman: If the hon. Gentleman would be good enough to read the amendment carefully, he might conceivably understand it. If he does not understand it, I guarantee that if my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) catches the eye of the Chair, even the hon. Gentleman will be fully educated on the matter.
  We say that a wider Europe must be a more democratic Europe. It must be more democratic at every level. On agreed and worked-out policies, one country in the ministerial Council should not be able to hold up the progress of the European Community as a whole.
  Mr. Tony Favell: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Kaufman: I will proceed for a moment. If I am not held up too much, I will gladly give way to the hon. Gentleman.
  On social and environmental matters, the Labour party believes that there should be qualified majority voting in the ministerial Council, which is composed of a group of men and women already democratically accountable to their national Parliaments.
  Mr. Favell: The right hon. Gentleman was a Member of the House in 1975 when the Government, under the leadership of Lord Wilson, recommended a referendum to the people. Indeed, he probably even helped to draft the document "Britain's New Deal in Europe". I believe that at one time he was the Prime Minister's press officer and, indeed, worked in his office. In the document under the heading
  "Will Parliament lose its power?"—
  Hon. Members: Reading.
  Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd): Order. The hon. Gentleman is making an intervention. I hope that he will be speedy with it so that we can make progress and that he will not read from the document before him.
  Mr. Favell: The document says that no important new policy will be made without the consent of a Minister answerable to the House.
  Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours: The hon. Gentleman is misquoting.
  Mr. Favell: I am not misquoting. The Labour party now departs from that. Is not it right that that departure should be put to the people? Why does his party object to a referendum now, when the right hon. Gentleman supported it then?
  Mr. Kaufman: The hon. Gentleman's memory of history is wrong. At that time I was a Member of Parliament. I was a junior Minister and I took advantage of the dispensation which enabled me to vote no in that referendum. But, unlike the hon. Gentleman, I accepted the outcome of the referendum. I voted and expressed my view. The result went against the way in which I cast my vote. As a democrat, I accepted the outcome of the referendum and I see no reason for another.
  Mr. Budgen: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Kaufman: No.
  The scope of the ministerial Council should be extended. That is why the Labour party believes that common foreign and security policies should be developed. On an ad hoc basis, the Community is already feeling its way towards such common policies. There has been a common approach to South Africa, the middle east and the Salman Rushdie death sentence. Those are contributions towards a common foreign policy. Admirable, if so far unavailing, efforts have been made to end the conflict in Yugoslavia. That approach is an element in the development of a common security policy. It will take some time to work out comprehensive and coherent common foreign and security policies. At that stage, we can consider qualified majority voting on those matters.
  The scope of the ministerial Council should not go beyond what is appropriate to the role of the Community and should not usurp the satisfactory work of organisations which already exist. That is why the Labour party opposes a defence role for the Community. First, Europe's defence needs are already satisfactorily met by the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which is inherently more effective than any alternative because it includes the transatlantic nations. Secondly, some members of the Community and some applicants—Ireland and Sweden, for example—would find difficulty in being members of a Community with a defence role. Thirdly, a really effective and comprehensive defence structure for the European Community would be viable outside NATO only if it inevitably involved aspirations for a nuclear capacity. The Labour party is opposed absolutely to the creation of a new nuclear power, especially one with 12 or more fingers on the nuclear trigger.
  In response to the intervention by the hon. Member for Bristol, East (Mr. Sayeed), a more democratic Europe cannot continue to accommodate a non-democratic Commission. That is why we want to make the Commission democratically accountable. Since it cannot be accountable to national Parliaments, it ought to be accountable to the European Parliament. It might be appropriate to give the European Parliament rights of
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  confirmation for Commissioners, and it could be worth considering giving the Parliament rights of recall of Commissioners as well.
  The European Parliament should be given further additional powers: powers to initiate proposals for legislation, which would be considered by the Commission and the Council of Ministers; powers of second reading on social and environmental decisions by the Council of Ministers.
  Mr. David Ashby rose—
  Mr. Kaufman: I shall not give way, as I have already done so several times. Mr. Speaker has announced how many hon. Members wish to take part in the debate.
  The proposals for the Council of Ministers, the Commission and the Parliament should be part of the negotiating brief for United Kingdom Ministers at Maastricht, as should proposals on economic and monetary union, to which my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) hopes to refer later in the debate. Not only are the proposals right in themselves, but many of them might win support at Maastricht. A positive United Kingdom approach—good for Britain and good for Europe—could win us partners and allies at Maastricht who could support Britain's positive proposals, could associate themselves with us on proposals by others that we oppose, and could be counterparts in the give and take involved in any negotiation.
  Mr. William Cash rose—
  Mr. Kaufman: I shall give way because I need a drink of water.
  Mr. Cash: The right hon. Gentleman said that, when he went to the European Parliament in 1987, he was, to say the least, a reluctant European. Could he explain how, in the following five or six years, he has made such a massive transformation? Is it because he is hoping that there will be a socialist Europe?
  Mr. Kaufman: It is because I accept democratic change. Whether or not I like Acts passed by this Parliament, if it passes them I accept them. The right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher), in her wisdom, guillotined the Single European Act through the House and it became an Act of Parliament. I accept the law. That is the reason why I have accepted the changes that have taken place.
  Our charge against the Government is that they have next to no positive proposals for Maastricht on the subjects that I have mentioned or on any other subjects. Yesterday, the Prime Minister started his speech by announcing that he would specify "what we can accept" at Maastricht. That is not what the United Kingdom will propose, with the intention of winning acceptance from others, but what we will accept, as proposed by others. He then went on to provide a long list, not of items that we could accept, but of items that we could not accept. His speech was a litany of "we will not accept" and "we will not agree". He used that phraseology over and over again.
  The hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) intervened in the Prime Minister's speech and asked him to specify the Government's aims and objectives at Maastricht. The Prime Minister evaded the question and never replied to it. We still do not know what the Government's aims and objectives at Maastricht are.

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  What about the word "federal"? At Luxembourg in June, the Foreign Secretary got upset when that word was mooted. He said:
  "We've got real problems with this."
  Last month he changed his attitude. In his offhand way he dismissed "federal" as "only a word". Recently it seems to have been bringing him out in anxiety attacks once again. He skirted warily around it today. He should have seen the face of his right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley when he evaded answering a question about the word "federal". After three ministerial speeches, we still do not know whether the Government would veto a treaty at Maastricht that contained the word "federal". I take it that the Foreign Secretary will give me an answer to that question.
  Mr. Hurd: That question has been answered three days running. It was certainly answered by me to the Select Committee, as the right hon. Gentleman, who attended the Committee, will know. It was answered by the Prime Minister yesterday and by me again today. [HON. MEMBERS: "What is the answer?"] We could not accept a treaty that contained either a commitment at the beginning to a federal vocation or a review clause at the end—-this is the question I have just answered—which implied or stated that the result of the review must be a movement towards federalism. It is perfectly clear.
  Mr. Kaufman: We still have not heard from the right hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. Ian Bruce rose—
  Mr. Kaufman: No, for the moment they are the Government and they will be at Maastricht, so let us find out what they will do in three weeks.
  The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Kaufman: No, I am dealing with the Foreign Secretary, who gave me a circumlocutory reply to a question that I did not ask him. Will the Government veto a draft treaty—[HON. MEMBERS: "Would you?"] This is the Government for the time being. At Maastricht, will the Government veto a treaty that contains the word "federal", yes or no?
  Mr. Hurd: We have said yes three times now. The word occurs twice in the present draft and I have explained in some detail why it is not acceptable on either occasion. What would the right hon. Gentleman do in those circumstances? It seemed to be implicit in the speech by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday that the federal vocation is no obstacle to him. Is that true?
  Mr. Kaufman: I am not talking about the phrase, "federal vocation". What I asked the right hon. Gentleman—and what he has still not answered—is, would the Government veto a treaty with the word "federal" in it?
  Mr. Garel-Jones: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Kaufman: No.
  Mr. Garel-Jones rose—
  Mr. Kaufman: No—not the office boy. There have been three interventions—
  Several Hon. Members: Give way.
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order.
  Mr. Kaufman: There have been three interventions on this matter but the Foreign Secretary has not said yes or no to the question.
  Mr. Garel-Jones rose—
  Mr. Kaufman: No.
  Mrs. Edwina Currie: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Surely we should check the microphone system in the House. I do not know what the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) heard, but I distinctly heard the Foreign Secretary answer yes on several occasions.
  Madam Deputy Speaker: That is barely a point of order for me. I can hear most people in the House, including the hon. Lady.
  Mr. Kaufman rose—
  Mr. Garel-Jones rose—
  Mr. Kaufman rose—
  Several Hon. Members: Give way.
  Mr. Kaufman: If the Foreign Secretary is ready to say that he will veto such a treaty, I shall give way to let him do so. The Minister of State is not yet the Foreign Secretary and there is little time left for him to become Foreign Secretary.
  Then there is the problem of qualified majority voting on foreign policy issues. In June, the Foreign Secretary told the House that the Government opposed all extensions of qualified majority voting. In his speech in the debate on the Gracious Speech three weeks ago, he changed his tune. He spoke about not liking majority voting on foreign policy "matters of substance" and on "substantial decisions" in foreign policy. He did not completely rule out qualified majority voting on foreign policy issues.
  The right hon. Member for Finchley was right yesterday to express concern from her point of view that the Foreign Secretary was a bit wobbly on majority voting. After his speech today, we still do not know where he stands on that matter—not on the draft to which he was referring but on the principle of extended majority voting.
  It is ironic that the right hon. Member for Finchley was pitched out of office a year ago today as a direct consequence of that "no, no, no" with which she infuriated the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe). Yet under her successor, the Government have not advanced beyond no, no, no. The negative approach of a year ago is unchanged. The Government have made little progress beyond the position that the right hon. Lady set out.
  But there is one basic difference. The right hon. Lady said no, no, no out of firm conviction. She said it because she believed it. She challenged everyone—the Community, Parliament and her own party. It may have been war, but in a way it was magnificent. The present Prime Minister says no, no, no, not out of conviction or courage. He says

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  it not because, like the right hon. Lady, he challenges his party, but because he is afraid of his party—and one could never accuse the right hon. Lady of that.
  The motion that the Prime Minister has proposed for decision by the House tonight is intended to be so meaningless that any Tory Member can vote for it while interpreting it to suit himself or herself. The right hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) can vote for it because he is opposed to a single currency, and the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath) can vote for it while advocating a single currency.
  The right hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) can vote for it while being reluctant to concede any more sovereignty to the Community, and the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East can vote for it because he is in favour of conceding more sovereignty to the Community. It is ironic that those two Members were allies in forcing the Madrid conditions on the exchange rate mechanism on the right hon. Lady and they are now at odds over further developments in the Community, but they can still both vote for this meaningless motion.
  Sir Teddy Taylor rose—
  Mr. Kaufman: The chairman of the Conservative party can vote for the motion because he is opposed to a referendum, and the right hon. Lady can vote for it because she advocates a referendum. At Question Time today, the Prime Minister, in ruling out a referendum, boasted that the right hon. Lady in her speech yesterday had premised him her full support. After what he has now said about a referendum, he had better watch out. Not only may she offer him her full support, she may say he is unassailable.
  The right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East said yesterday that he would vote for the Government because the Prime Minister was clearly determined to follow a path that the right hon. and learned Gentleman favoured. The right hon. Member for Finchley said yesterday that she would vote for the Government because they were following a path that she favoured—in precisely the opposite direction.
  This is not a clear path to Maastricht that the Prime Minister has set out. It is a maze in which Tory Members wander blindly, from time to time colliding with each other. When tonight those Tory MPs have all voted for the Prime Minister's motion—for different and often conflicting reasons—the Prime Minister will claim that his motion has given him a mandate for Maastricht, when he stands for nothing at all.
  It is as though the Prime Minister is trying to paint a canvas in the style of Georges Seurat, if I may be forgiven for referring to a continental artist. It will be recalled that Seurat was a pointillist who filled his canvas with dots. When he stood back, he could see that he had created a superb landscape with figures. The Prime Minister fills his canvas with dots all right, but when he stands back, all he sees is a mass of dots.
  The Prime Minister dare not present a clear picture, because such a picture would annoy some group or other in the Tory party. He cannot look our European partners in the face, because he is preoccupied with looking over his shoulder at his own party. His negotiation at Maastricht is not with fellow members of the Community but with
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  fellow members of the Tory party. The deal he seeks to make at Maastricht is not with the Twelve but with the 1922 Committee.
  The right. hon. Member for Blaby blurted out the truth on television on Sunday when he said that what the Government were aiming for was
  "what the Conservative party would accept."
  Mr. Nigel Lawson: Characteristically, the right hon. Gentleman has totally misquoted what I said. I said I was confident that the Government would come back from Maastricht with something that was acceptable to the Conservative party. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Kaufman: Not only has the right hon. Gentleman made an idiot of himself by that intervention, but he has achieved the interesting feat of misquoting himself. The words I quoted—
  "what the Conservative party would accept"
  —come not only from the transcript of "On the Record" but from even holier writ, The Daily Telegraph, on Monday.
  The Prime Minister claims that he wants to be at the heart of Europe, but his real objective is a bypass operation. The Prime Minister will brandish his meaningless majority after the Division tonight and claim it as a mandate for Maastricht. But this is a Prime Minister uniquely without a mandate. He is Prime Minister not by the vote of the people but by the votes of 185 Tory Members. I saw yesterday how the Prime Minister winced when the right hon. Member for Finchley said:
  "our authority comes from the ballot box."—[Official Report, 20 November 1991, Vol. 199, c. 291.]
  Not only have the people never voted for the Prime Minister at the ballot box: they have consistently and persistently voted against him at the ballot box. The Prime Minister has the worst by-election record in British political history. He is the only Prime Minister in the history of the United Kingdom to have lost every by-election during the period of his premiership. Even the right hon. Member for Finchley did better than that.
  The Prime Minister goes to Maastricht without a mandate or an agenda. He goes there talking about paper sovereignty, when the country's real sovereignty is increasingly dependent on the actions of our European Community partners. He proclaims a determination to defend our national currency. Yesterday, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had the cheek to intervene in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition on the national currency, when this week has shown that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor are powerless to defend our national currency against movements in the markets in Community countries and elsewhere.
  Mr. Anthony Coombs: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Kaufman: No, I shall not give way.
  Yesterday's Financial Times reported:
  "An additional factor deterring international investors from becoming involved in UK markets was the perceived disarray in the Conservative party ahead of today's two day Commons debate on Europe".
  Successive Chancellors have had to acknowledge that, too often, the parity of the pound and the level of interest rates are determined not in the Treasury or even the Bank of England, but in the Bundesbank. What kind of sovereignty is that?

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  That is the reality of Europe. We in Europe are all increasingly interdependent, and our sovereignty depends not on empty phrases and petty posturing hut on recognition of that interdependent relationship and the part that we play in it. To fail to play a positive part in the deliberations at Maastricht is to surrender Britain's true interests. It is to let others make the decisions while pretending that we are free to stand apart, unscathed and unaffected, when every decision taken without our full participation will affect our country's future, perhaps for generations.
  Because the Prime Minister did not have the backbone to call a general election this month, Labour will be absent from Maastricht—[Interruption.] That is the only reason. The Prime Minister did not call an election on 7 November, because he knew that he would lose it then. Some time in the first six months of next year, an election must take place. Even this dithering Prime Minister cannot evade it. A Labour Government will be able, therefore, to play some part in the meetings in Portugal between January and June and they will take the chair at the meetings in the United Kingdom from 1 July onwards. By fighting for the ideal of a strong Britain in a wider, deeper and more democratic European Community, that Labour Government will be fighting for a true and meaningful British sovereignty.
  5.34 pm
  Mr. Edward Heath: The House may think that my views are already well known. If so, it enables me to speak briefly in this great debate and it will avoid the interventions of so many of those who are opposed to me; they already know my views.
  When the Prime Minister said, on his appointment, that he wanted Britain to be at the heart of Europe, my heart leaped with joy. That joy was echoed right across Europe. Other European countries said that the new British Government would be positive and co-operative and would put forward proposals for bringing about the completion of the European Community, for which they had been working for the past 40 years. I believe that that is the Prime Minister's intention, which is why I shall strongly support him tonight. I also believe that at the conference he will use all his persuasiveness to enable the European Community to move ahead.
  I have no desire to smear or jeer at the Opposition and the fact that they have now declared themselves fully in support of the Community, because that is a matter of intense pleasure to me. They recognise full well that, if that had happened in the 1950s, 1960s or 1970s, the story of this country in Europe and of the Community would have been different. However, that is history. Today we must welcome the fact that the three major parties in this country all agree about the importance of the Community.
  I regard it from the point of view of the importance to our people, our country and Europe as a whole. I confess that I sometimes wonder whether the thought of Europe as a whole is in some people's minds, particularly when we discuss our friends in the Community and their actions. Some of them do not always stick to the regulations as we should like. Although we are better than most, we are not entirely immune to that accusation. No development is helped by accusations and counter accusations between members of the Community.
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  I welcome what the Prime Minister said in his speech. He began by referring back to the summit in Paris in October 1972, when the House had already agreed to our membership but before we had become members. That was to happen on 1 January 1973. He pointed out, quite rightly, that at that summit the Heads of Government had all committed themselves to the future of the Community. He quoted in particular the text of the communiqué on the question of economic and monetary union, where we all affirmed
  "the determination of the Member States of the enlarged European Communities irreversibly to achieve the economic and monetary Union".
  That was 20 years ago, and what is more, we set the way to achieve it.
  The subjects with which we dealt at that time where widespread. We dealt not only with economic and monetary union, but with regional policy. The British were responsible for introducing regional policy, which has been of great benefit to the regions of this country. I am pleased that the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry has now announced that the Government are to have a strategy for industry, which is a suitable vehicle for regional development.
  We also dealt with social policy because we believed strongly in it. Herr Brandt wished to include in the communiqué the fact that trade union members of boards would be permitted because it had been so successful in his country, which was already the most successful economy in Europe. We went on to industrial, scientific and technological policy and also dealt with environmental policy. In 1972 at the Stockholm conference, Britain was to take the lead on environmental policy. The then Secretary of State for the Environment led that conference on the protection of the environment.
  There was then the question of energy policy and external relations. The communique concluded—this is the point that I wished to make—with the reinforcement of institutions. The final paragraph said:
  "The Heads of State or Government, having set themselves the major objective of transforming, before the end of the present decade"—
  that was the 1970s—
  "and with the fullest respect for the Treaties already signed, the whole complex of the relations of Member States into a European Union".
  It was a question not of economic, political or monetary union but of complete European union. That has been the objective of the other countries in the Community ever since.
  Mr. Tebbit: I particularly want to help my right hon. Friend recollect what he said in the House on 25 February 1970, which was:
  "What is more, those members of the Community who want a federal system, but who know the views of Her Majesty's Government and the Opposition parties here are prepared to forgo their federal desires so that Britain should be a member and take part in political consultation and co-ordination with them."—[Official Report, 25 February 1970; Vol. 796, c. 1221.]
  If my right hon. Friend was so keen for the members to forgo their federal destination, why is he now so keen that they should take it up?
  Mr. Heath: I shall deal with the question of federalism because I know that it is an obsession of my right hon. Friend.

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  I welcomed what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister had to say yesterday. He was right to emphasise that we have had 20 years to examine the issues and make a complete decision on them.
  With regard to economic and monetary union, I wish to address the issue of a single currency. My right hon. Friend the former Prime Minister signed the treaty for the single market. It must have been quite clear—any economist could have stated it at the time—that if we had a single market with all the obstructions and difficulties removed, there was no alternative to a single currency. That was quite plain to see at the time.
  Mr. Budgen: Rubbish.
  Mr. Heath: I am accustomed to my hon. Friend shouting, "Rubbish"—he does it constantly, but what he says bears no resemblance to the truth or the facts of life. No great economy in the world today has more than a single currency. Let us consider the two greatest—the United States and Japan. Both have single currencies. What is more, we have made various suggestions in the past two to three years for avoiding a single currency, not one of which has stood the test of examination—and they will not do so. Therefore, there is bound to be a single currency, and the remaining question relates to the way in which and the time when that single currency is to be introduced.
  My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said that he will not be bullied or forced into accepting a single currency. He has left the position open so that he is able to accept it willingly. I am glad that he has done so, and the sooner the time comes for us to accept that single currency, the better. One factor that reassures me at present is that various of my friends are talking about a time schedule, which will not exist. It will be shortened at every stage as we make developments in the Community.
  It is in the interests of our businesses to have a single currency. Imagine what would happen if the rest of the Community had a single currency, and we were the only country without it. What would happen to our business men and our investment? The consequences would be unthinkable. Our business men are frank and recognise that if they are to take the opportunities that the Community offers, they must be part of that single currency and its machinery.
  How can we expect to make the City of London the financial centre of the Community if we are outside a single currency? It would just not be feasible. How can we expect the City of London to be the centre of insurance and other activities in the Community if this country is outside the Community's currency? That would be unimaginable. Those are the facts of life with which we must deal.
  Mr. Budgen: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Heath: No. Well, if my hon. Friend will refrain from describing my simple utterances as "rubbish", I shall give way.
  Mr. Budgen: Perhaps my sedentary remarks were somewhat rude.
  Will my right hon. Friend explain how it is that the Japanese financial markets are so successful when they trade in other currencies, and how they find it possible to trade in other countries so successfully?
  Mr. Heath: Many foreign exchanges trade in other currencies, but that is not what happens in manufacturing businesses, which have to use the people who trade in the currencies. It would be impossible for London to be the financial centre of a Community if London did not share that single currency.
  It is held up that we cannot devote any more sovereignty to such issues. We have pooled sovereignty in the Community. We all knew that in doing so we would have a say over other people's sovereignty. Sometimes a majority decision and sometimes a unanimous one gave us a say in other countries' sovereignty. That process will continue to develop, and rightly so, because it is of benefit to the people of this country. It will help our country, our nation and Europe as whole.
  When we joined the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, of which we heard much earlier today, we gave it the whole of our sovereignty in the case of war. The words in the NATO treaty made it clear that an attack on one was an attack on all. It did not state that a royal commission should be set up to examine the position or that we should have a chat about co-operation. We made a firm commitment that, all the time that we were in NATO, an attack on one would be an attack on all. There cannot be a greater contribution of sovereignty than that, and the Community is not asking for anything like that at present. Let us not continue the perpetual attack on sovereignty as the reason why we should not develop the Community.
  I am strongly in favour of more democracy in the Community. I do not agree with the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) that it is a bureaucratic Brussels—the common cry. We all have bureaucracies, and Brussels happens to have a more competent bureaucracy than most others in the world. We make a considerable contribution to it, which is why it is so successful in making proposals?
  Mr. Phillip Oppenheim: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Heath: No.
  How could the Community possibly have made the progress that it has in just 40 years unless it had had a central organisation to put forward proposals? I believe that the European Parliament should be given more powers as soon as possible.
  I quite understand that some right hon. and hon. Members may hate the idea of another organisation dealing with the affairs of the Community. However, as the Community has the power and we contribute the sovereignty, it follows rightly and naturally that the European Parliament should have those powers. Those who are opposed to it cannot have it both ways. They cannot accuse the Community of being undemo-cratic while refusing to grant any democratic powers to its organisations. That is why democratic development is necessary.
  The Government have taken a firm line on the social charter. I strongly support the Prime Minister in what he is doing at the conference. However, I ask the Conservative party to give a second thought to the social charter. Ever since Disraeli, the Conservative party has been proud of what it has done for the social services. I

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  believe that we should continue that development in Europe. What is more, we have said that the other countries must not compete unfairly.
  We must not allow that accusation to be levelled at us. They could say that any capitalist can repress the wages of young workers without limitation and accuse us of unfairness. What happens when, by the time workers are 20 or 21 they are sacked so that firms can take on the next generation of young people? We all have constituency interests in the subject. In my constituency I find that older workers are sacked so that companies can take on lower-paid, young workers—that does not constitute a healthy society. The Prime Minister should take another look at the social charter.
  With regard to immigration and similar matters, customs duties are being abolished inside the Community. Immigration inside the Community is covered by free movement and it is up to us in the Community to arrive at an arrangement about immigration into it.
  There are undoubted problems. We have the problem of those who want to come from Africa and the Asian continent to this country. Our Community partners, especially Italy and France, have the problem of those in Muslim and African countries who want to cross the Mediterranean and enter the Community. We all face such problems, but they can be sorted out jointly by the members of the Community. There is no reason to say that such matters can be left to one side.
  Now for the European Free Trade Association. The British created EFTA in an attempt to break up the Community. Neither the Labour Government nor, in their early years, the Conservative Government were prepared to join the Community and in 1958 we set up EFTA with its seven member countries. It did not break up the Community. The Community laughed at us and the only people who suffered were the British, because the smaller member countries said, "We are poor and weak." But they were much richer than we were. Those countries asked us to do this and that for them. I sat through innumerable EFTA meetings at which that was always the theme.
  When we went into the Community, we made a good arrangement for the EFTA countries. Denmark wanted to join, as did Norway, but it was defeated on a referendum. Eire engaged in negotiations. Now the EFTA countries want to join the Community, not because it is a free trade area or because they want to turn it into one, but because they see it as a complete Community. The Swedes, the Austrians and the Swiss—they above all—want a complete Community and do not want to see it disintegrate into a purely free trade area of the type that they are leaving.
  How can that be done? As I know only too well, negotiations take time and it cannot be done tomorrow. However, after 1992, negotiations can begin and it should be possible for those countries to become full members. That also has a relationship to defence, with which I shall deal in a moment. The Foreign Secretary has rightly said that central European countries should be welcomed when they are ready. That means economically and politically ready. They must be democratic in the fullest sense of the word, and must be able to take their place in what will be a single market by the time they join.
  Those are big requirements for people who have been suppressed for 40 or 50 years and who have no idea at the moment of how to run a market economy. Some of them are finding the utmost difficulty in establishing a democratic political society. People who say, "Bring them
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  in tomorrow or the wall of wealth is being used against them," are talking fantastic nonsense. As I have told the House before, it took us 11 years after the end of the second world war—six years of Labour government and five years of Conservative government—to abolish the restrictions that had been set up to carry on the war. I remember that well because there was a blazing row between Harold Macmillan and Anthony Eden about whether it should be done.
  After their dictators died, Spain and Portugal took 10 years before they were able to say that they felt ready to join the European Community. If we asked the central European countries to come in today as full members, they would be swept off the face of Europe. There is nothing that we want to buy from them because those countries have all been under Soviet domination. However, they have seen—as the east Germans saw in west Germany—what is available to the rest of us, and they want to buy it.
  The President of the United States is not justified in saying, "Do these things in a year and we will help you." It is not feasible for them to be done in a year. British business men who have been to central European countries and those of us who have travelled to most of them and spoken to their leaders know about the utmost difficulty they are having in changing to a new system. However, there will come a time when we should welcome them to the Community.
  Mr. Skinner: I am listening carefully to the right hon. Gentleman. I was here on 28 October 1971 for that important debate on Europe and for the vote. At that time about 500,000 people were out of work in Britain and some of us regarded that figure as fairly high. We had gone through a period since the end of the war when unemployment rarely went above 500,000. I have listened to the wonderful story about the Common Market. There are 2·5 million people out of work in Britain and millions are out of work in this nirvana of the Common Market that the right hon. Gentleman describes. Only 5 million people are employed in manufacturing in Britain. There will soon be more working in shops and hotels. Some of that has happened because for the past 12 years we have had a Tory Government whom the right hon. Gentleman has occasionally supported. When I look at the Common Market now I do not see an economic miracle any more. I see trouble with a capital T and mass unemployment.
  Mr. Heath: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would expect me to go into the history of the past 12 years on this occasion; nor can he blame the European Community for the situation. My Government managed to bring unemployment down to just 560,000 despite the policy that had been overdone by Roy Jenkins, now Lord Jenkins of Hillhead, whose financial policy pushed unemployment up well above 1 million.
  Mr. Skinner: The right hon. Gentleman is saying that he does not care about the dole queues.
  Mr. Heath: I am saying nothing of the sort. The hon. Gentleman knows that throughout my political life I have worked to bring down unemployment. On this occasion, the hon. Gentleman has gone too far.
  Defence is now being discussed, and it must also be treated realistically. NATO and those who are responsible for running it now feel that they have empty hands and are understandably looking for a purpose. I say to the Prime

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  Minister and to the Foreign Secretary that NATO is not justified in turning itself into a purely political instrument or in saying that it will extend its breadth to other parts of the world. I am strongly opposed to that, as, I think, are the majority of hon. Members, and it must not be allowed to come about.
  Let us examine the European contribution to NATO. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary knows very well what President Kennedy said to me. He may have said it to others. He said that he wanted two tall, strong towers in NATO—an American tower and a European tower. I said, "You have a tall, strong tower and we have a rather wobbly one"—to use the current expression. He said, "That is why I want Britain in the Community and will do everything I can to help you get into it. I shall be as discreet as possible and you know the way to let me know what you want."
  That is not anti-NATO. That is the proper basis for NATO. If the United States, a super-power, is one of the pillars, Europe is perfectly entitled to organise its defence to be the second pillar inside NATO. The Americans do not grumble about that. How could they? How do we form the European tower? There is no doubt that over time the Americans will remove more and more of their forces from Europe if the present situation continues. Therefore, we must be prepared to do more to look after our own defence.
  The Western European Union is said to be the answer, but it was formed for one purpose—to bring Germany into the family of European nations, and it was successful. After that, it fell into disuse. I resurrected it on 18 April 1962, so that we could have a discussion that the French would not allow in the Community negotiations, then it fell into disuse again. Now, we are trying to make an institution that had another purpose into one that will deal with defence in Europe. That may be the best way to deal with it at the moment, but I do not believe that, after a time, the Community will continue to exist with these outside organisations dotted about it. This will be particularly so as the European Parliament gains more powers and strength.
  What is more, one cannot separate defence from the economy, as we can see at the moment. We cannot separate defence from foreign policy, or foreign policy from the economy. Therefore, the time will come when these things will have to form a unity in exactly the same way as the three communities that used to exist are now one Community. These organisations will develop. It is because I believe that this is bound to happen that I am more optimistic than events give me justification for being.
  I shall deal now with the suggestion that there should be a referendum.
  Mr. Nigel Spearing: I can now ask the right hon. Gentleman a question that I have wanted to ask him for 20 years. He has described his commitment to broad political union. Did he have a mandate for the vote mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner)? Did the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) have a mandate for the Single European Act? Does the Prime Minister have a mandate for going to Maastricht next week and agreeing to what is in that treaty?
  Mr. Heath: I can answer only for myself; I cannot answer for my right hon. Friends. We had a debate in the House over many days in July and over many days when we returned in October, and at the end we had a vote, in which Conservative Members were free to vote as they wished. It was up to the Labour party to decide how it would allow its Members of Parliament to vote. It decided to put on the Whip, but 72 of its Members abandoned it, with the result that there was a majority of 112 in favour.
  Every time that the matter was debated, from my opening speech at the first conference in Paris in October 1961, it was made clear that the purpose was to have an ever-closer union to create a European Community. Every single document—I have quoted some already—has made that clear. I believe that we had complete authority from the House to carry on as we did.
  Mr. Spearing: Was that an electoral mandate?
  Mr. Heath: From the House.
  Mr. Spearing: From the country?
  Mr. Heath: Yes, because the country elects the House. That is why I want to deal with the referendum. There are those who say that there must be no infringement of sovereignty, but immediately say that we must have a referendum.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) made a dramatic speech in the debate on the referendum in 1975. Most people know that, when the House debated our entry into the Community, the then Mr. Wilson said that he would not tolerate a referendum, and we both agreed about that. At the end of the debate, there was no decision to have a referendum. However, there was a referendum because one of his Cabinet colleagues put pressure on him and he gave way. Even then, it was rightly said to be an exceptional case and not to be followed by any others.
  We are now told that it has become part of the constitution, but I am a simple fellow and I was brought up to believe that we do not have a constitution, so I do not see how a referendum can be part of it.
  Mr. Robert Adley: If my memory of those days is clear, the noble Lord Jenkins was Home Secretary in the then Labour Government and utterly refused to present to the House the Bill to allow a referendum. Is it not true that the noble Lord Jenkins, who is still a leading member of the Liberal Democrats, has done a U-turn, with the rest of his party, on this issue?
  Mr. Heath: I think so.
  I have here a quote from my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley, who said in the debate on the referendum:
  "It would bind and fetter parliamentary sovereignty in practice."—[Official Report, 11 March 1975; Vol 888, c. 315.]
  I agree with her entirely. It would, and I see no reason to change my view, or her view, at this moment or in the future. I do not believe in referendums as a means of government.
  Mrs. Margaret Thatcher: I know that I inherited that position from my right hon. Friend, and I loyally upheld it. Now, it looks to me as if three parties will be for a single currency and for sacrificing a great deal of the work that it has previously been the right of Parliament to do. How are the people to make their views known in

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  this absence of choice? That was the particular point. My right hon. Friend will remember that our right hon. Friend the noble Lord Hailsham, made an interesting speech on elective dictatorship.
  Hon. Members: Oh!
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order.
  Mrs. Thatcher: Therefore, as he has been in the House longer than I have, will my right hon. Friend tell us how people can make their views known when all parties take the same view but each is divided?
  Mr. Heath: This is an occasion which constantly occurs in parliamentary history.
  Mr. Budgen: Rubbish.
  Mr. Heath: What a pity some people have such a limited vocabulary. People can make their views known in a variety of ways, as we know, and can judge candidates on other questions. If all three parties are united on the issue of a single currency—
  Mr. Cryer: They are not united.
  Mr. Heath: I said if they are united. I am talking about the party as a whole, not about those below the Gangway. If the parties are united, it is open for people to judge, on the merits of the candidates, whom they want to return. The Foreign Secretary quoted Lord Attlee saying that referenda are "for demagogues and dictators". As in so many other things, although he has never had the credit for it, Lord Attlee was right. I strongly support the Prime Minister in his mission and I wish him every success.
  6.8 pm
  Mr. James Molyneaux: Madam Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.]
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Will hon. Members who are leaving the Chamber do so quietly as a courtesy to the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) who has the Floor?
  Mr. Molyneaux: I am glad to follow the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath), even if he, too, is below the Gangway. I share his view of the importance of co-operation with the rest of Europe. He and I are therefore in line with the Prime Minister, who yesterday said:
  "our responsibility … must also be to all the other European countries which are now returning to democracy for the first time in 50 years."
  He concluded with the words:
  "Our door must be open to them."—[Official Report, 20 November 1991; Vol. 199, c. 281.]
  I have faith in the Prime Minister's ability to ensure that at Maastricht the rules will not be drawn so tightly as to treat those eastern European nations as second-class Europeans.
  The right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) yesterday referred to the history of what she correctly termed "the conveyor belt". I want briefly to augment her history lesson. There are some present in the Chamber who can remember Britain's first tentative attempt to gain entry. We had an assurance at that time from the Macmillan Government that the Government were merely engaged in a reconnaissance operation to probe, to see what terms might be on offer, but not to make any kind of
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  commitment. There was no question of making any decision; the House of Commons would consider carefully any terms which might be on offer, but there would be no commitment to entry then.
  When the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup returned after having done, if I may say so, a good job from his point of view and from the point of view at that time of the majority of his party, we were then asked by the Macmillan Government whether it would be sensible to reject terms which were far better than anything that we had a right to expect.
  I am the only surviving Ulster Unionist on this Bench who voted against Second Reading of the European Communities Bill on 17 February 1972. At that time, I was in receipt of the Conservative party Whip. I defied a three-line Whip on that occasion in the Division which gave the Government a majority of eight to take Britain into what was then termed the European Economic Community.
  I was not disciplined on that occasion. I was not expelled. That came two years later when I opposed the same Government on the Sunningdale Anglo-Irish agreement. But it would be fair to say in defence of the majority of the 309 who voted for that Second Reading that they never intended that the structure should extend beyond its then title—the European Economic Community. In fairness to most of the 309, it has to be said that, once they became aware of the more sinister designs, they had the courage and integrity to say no, and they still have that courage and integrity. I defend the right of English men and women to say no, even though they occasionally deny the right to Ulster men to say no to the dictation of a foreign Government.
  In recent months there has been a parallel awakening throughout the entire United Kingdom electorate. In 1975, in the Wilson referendum, the electorate were prepared to support what was presented at that time as a wider trading bloc, and well we can remember that point being put to us. We were asked whether it would not be a good idea to enter this all-powerful bloc to enable our products to be sold to 250 million customers. That would, for example, benefit the British motor industry which would be able to sell its products to the 250 million customers in Europe, who presumably were thought to be incapable of making their own cars. I do not need to rub in the lesson of what has happened in the interval to the British motor industry.
  Whatever the speed of the conveyor belt, we have to accept that the long-term policy was and is one of gradualism. It is a policy which depends on a certain vagueness at all stages during the past 30 years and more and perhaps into the years ahead, but there is a responsibility upon those of us who have no particular vested interest in the outcome of the next general election to probe the intentions of both parties and to bring out the real effects in a way which is difficult for both the Government and the Opposition, for understandable reasons.
  Even in the past few months, the electorate have moved from approval in general to opposition in particular. The main cause of that is the way in which the Commission has prematurely shown its hand. The general public may not be greatly motivated by all the technical issues that we have been debating during the past two days which are of

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  legitimate concern to Parliament, but they are incensed by the nooks and crannies meddling, much of it unnecessary and all of it plain daft.
  The draftsmen of the European directive are unlikely to call a halt or to suspend production in what is for Britain a pre-election period. By the time we come to that general election, answers will be required of every candidate, not so much on the big issues, as on a range of needling, meddlesome demands. Answers of a kind may be given, but they are unlikely to allay suspicion. Election addresses and manifestos may or may not be unambiguous, but the return of what may be a candidate of conviction does not guarantee that he or she will be able to sustain his or her position in the context of a general election.
  The supremacy of the ballot box is subject of the greater supremacy of the party Whips office. Only on rare occasions can a three-line Whip be safely defied. Rebellions have to be rationed. That point is relevant to the exchanges between the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup, the right hon. Member for Finchley and the hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing).
  One example of the breakdown of the supremacy of the ballot box, even of common sense, in the face of the overlordship of the Whips office, is fresh in my memory. It came on the morning of the vote expressing approval of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, when countless right hon. and hon. Members, many of them present in the Chamber this evening, came up to me with words of encouragement which I summarise as follows—"Jim, sorry I couldn't be with you in your Lobby last night, but don't worry, the damn thing won't work anyway."
  That attitude did not disillusion me as it might disillusion others. I have been here long enough to be proof against disillusionment. I fully understand why right hon. and hon. Members had to say that. But that is why I have to agree with the right hon. Member for Finchley when she said yesterday:
  "let the people speak."—[Official Report, 20 November 1991; Vol. 199, c. 298.]
  As a constitutionalist, I have had to conclude, somewhat regrettably, that a referendum is desirable. To those who claim that framing a question would be impossible, I say let them try this for a draft: Do you want to govern yourselves or do you want to be governed by others?
  6.18 pm
  Mr. Nigel Lawson: The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) has been in the House for a long time, and during that time he has earned its affection and respect. I am pleased to be following him in today's debate, although I must add that I cannot agree with his final remarks.
  My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister opened the debate with a particularly well-judged and well-considered speech, and I entirely support what he said. As has been mentioned at least once today, on an earlier occasion my right hon. Friend said that Britain's place was right at the heart of Europe. I endorse that view entirely; but the question that most of us have been addressing in this debate is, what sort of Europe do we wish to be at the heart of?
  That is the key issue—the issue of what is to be the constitution of Europe. Such an important issue should be debated openly. It is useless for some right hon. Members
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  to say, "That was decided long ago; you signed up to this, that and the other." That is not so; this is a live issue, a difficult issue and an issue which the House must address seriously—as, in my view, it has done in this debate.
  Historians of the future may look back on the debate —or, at least, on one aspect of it—almost with a sense of disbelief. The big event of recent years has been the complete change in the European scene—and, indeed, the world scene—following the collapse of communism and the end of the cold war. As some of my hon. Friends have pointed out, that has had a profound effect on the condition of Europe.
  Countries—many of them members of the European Free Trade Association—that had previously felt that their commitment to neutrality prevented them from joining the Community are no longer inhibited, for the ending of the cold war means that the question no longer arises. Now they feel free to join, and wish to do so.
  As for the countries of central and eastern Europe—the fledgling democracies—they, too, want to join; but, as we all know, that part of our continent is in crisis. This half, fortunately, is doing reasonably well, but the same cannot be said of the other half. It is experiencing an economic crisis: parts of eastern Europe are on the brink of total economic disintegration. There are also political crises—crises of legitimacy, and the crises involved in accommodating the nationalisms that are emerging in various regions. Those nationalisms could be put to very constructive use, but they could also prove destructive. That is where the problems are; that is the part of Europe to which we should be paying attention today.
  Those historians of the future will, I think, be amazed that we are expending so much time, energy and effort on addressing not the half of Europe that is in difficulties, but the half that is not. We are fiddling with western Europe while eastern Europe burns.
  Mr. Hugh Dykes: I entirely agree with what my right hon. Friend has just said. Is it not encouraging, however, that—as far as I know—not a single eastern European leader has said, publicly or privately, that the Community should slow the developments that it is currently achieving, pending the eventual adhesion of eastern European countries? Despite the difficulties that those countries are experiencing, their leaders all say that they are fully prepared to join at the stage of development that currently prevails.
  Mr. Lawson: I now have a fair amount to do with the leaders of those countries, and, unfortunately, they are in a very weak position. But I have heard none of them say that they welcome the treaties or consider them helpful. The Community should be devoting much more attention to what it can do to open its markets to the produce of those countries, especially their farm produce. Their manufacturing sectors are in a very poor state, although there is a world market, and a European market in particular, for the agricultural produce that they are able to generate. The record of France—a prime mover in the current developments in western Europe—is nothing short of scandalous.
  Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman: Trade with eastern Europe has normally been centred on the Soviet Union, which still needs that produce, because it is short of food. Surely it would be more logical—[Interruption.]
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady has excellent parliamentary manners and knows that she should address the Chair.
  Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman: Surely it would be more logical to continue the supply of food to the Soviet Union. I have been there recently, and I know that the people there are extremely hungry. If we provided aid, they could consume the food at home rather than putting our farmers out of work.
  Mr. Lawson: I am sorry that my hon. Friend takes such a narrow view. The problem with the Soviet Union, or rather the former Soviet Union, relates much more to the distribution of food there than the capacity to produce it. Eastern European countries produce an export surplus, and they desperately need western markets. They want to improve their trading connections with the west, and I think that we should encourage that.
  Let me return to the subject of the Maastricht treaties. The Government face a difficult task, which they are handling with considerable skill, but concern is still felt by many right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House—including me—about the present position. For 40 years, I have believed that Britain's destiny lies in Europe; ever since the formation of the European Community, I have believed that we should join, and I am only sorry that we did not do so at the beginning.
  One of the reasons why I supported the Community was that it struck me as an inspired creation: it provided a means for the most intimate form of co-operation between the various nation states of Europe, without becoming a federation—a single united states of Europe. It got the balance right between the need for the closest possible co-operation and the retention of nation slates. I believe that the latter is not only important historically, but profoundly important to the successful conduct of policy. National loyalty is essential.
  We are now being asked to suggest that the careful balance which is the European Community be destroyed —transformed into a federal Europe. There was a time when people said, "There is no such thing; it is just a bogey in the night. Do not worry about a federal Europe, for that is not what it is about." Now, however, the cat is firmly out of the bag, in the preamble to the treaty—the "federal vocation". We know from the prime movers in the exercise that that is their objective; I disagree with it, but there is nothing disreputable about it, and equally no point in concealing it.
  Some Liberal Members have said, "What is all this about federalism? Federalism merely means decentralisation." Is it really being suggested that what Mr. Delors wants is less power at the centre and more power for the nation states? Is it really being suggested that what Mr. Mitterrand wants is less power for the Community, and more for Germany and other nation states? On the contrary: the desire exists to create a federal united states of Europe. As I have said, that is an entirely legitimate point of view, although I do not happen to share it.
  Why am I opposed to it? First, I believe that that is not what the people of Britain want and I suspect strongly that it is not wanted by those living in most of the other countries that comprise the Community. Secondly, history, including recent history, suggests that multinational federations simply do not work. To try to embark upon them is a road to immense political difficulties and
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  troubles and could lead to a nationalist backlash of the ugliest type. As I have said, nationalism can be channelled to positive purposes, but we all know that it can take an ugly form. That is the danger if we go along that route.
  Even those who favour a federal Europe—a united states of Europe—should be concerned at what is in the treaties and the way that things are going. The embryo federation is a much more centralist model than anybody, even those in favour of a federation, could be happy with. It gives powers to the centre which the united states does not require and provides protections for states' rights which are wholly inadequate.
  The doctrine of subsidiarity is an attempt to meet the problem, but it is wholly inadequate and feeble. Who is to decide and how are they to decide what it is appropriate for the former nations to have within their responsibility? Who is to decide what should be determined centrally? The idea is that issues should be decided at the appropriate level and, presumably, the Commission will make the proposal as to which that level is. That is nothing like the protection contained in the constitution of the United States, where there are clearly defined and written responsibilities for the federal Government and everything that is not clearly written down is the responsibility of the various states. There is no such protection here.
  Moreover, with the constitution-mongering of the Community, we have a constitution that is permanently on the move. That troubles me. I believe in a dynamic society, but that society needs a stable framework. A few years ago, we had the change in the constitution brought about by the Single European Act. Now, further constitutional change is proposed with the Maastricht treaties and we are told that there will be a further constitutional change in 1996, and so on. It is not only undesirable to have a constitution permanently on the move, but with each change there is pressure for more and more power to be given to the centre.
  Sir Michael Marshall: Does my right hon. Friend agree that for the future we should think seriously about the six-month presidency? Is it not the nature of things that in each country's turn there is inevitably a trend to be different and to drive on in some other direction?
  Mr. Lawson: I agree with my hon. Friend. The issues are rather more fundamental than that, but I agree that the six-month presidency is not helpful and that an annual presidency would be preferable.
  I shall give two examples. First, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister pointed out, there are the social issues. Nobody is suggesting that social issues such as employment conditions and so on are not a fit subject for legislation. That is not the point. The point is at what level the legislation should be. Should it be national legislation, or should it be Communitywide legislation? It is striking that in the United States, which is a single nation state of a federal nature, it is largely the individual states that decide their own arrangements. They are not centrally imposed.
  If we take the latter route, there will inevitably be pressure to push up the level to that of the highest—the Federal Republic of Germany—and there will be huge costs on the whole European economy, particularly the poorer countries of the Community, which could not

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  possibly bear such costs. The countries that benefit will not be in Europe but will be Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong and elsewhere.
  Secondly, majority voting on the environment also concerns me. It is accepted far too readily because there are aspects of the environment that do indeed cross frontiers. I agree that it is appropriate for those aspects to be decided at Community level. However, there is also a range of environmental issues that are perhaps the most local issues of any that we ever deal with as Members of Parliament. The idea that they too should come under an environmental umbrella to be decided at Community level is absurd and offensive. River pollution has been quoted. Of course the Rhine runs through many countries, but there are not many rivers in this country that cross national borders.
  Clearly, the key issues are those of foreign policy, security—both external and internal—and currency and all that flows from that. I was interested to hear—it was one of the few clear things that was said by the Opposition spokesman, the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman)—that the Opposition were in favour of majority voting on foreign policy. I had not heard that before. Without wishing to give offence to a great Department of State, I see a danger of a sort of Foreign Office view gaining ground which holds that foreign policy, defence and security are what really matter and that we should not worry about money. [Interruption.] Perhaps my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer recognises that view.
  Such a suggestion could not be more wrong. As the EMU treaty makes clear, perfectly logically, a single currency requires a single European central bank and, in a democracy, that in turn must lead to a single Finance Minister and a single Government. Once that is established, independent foreign policy and independent defence policy go out of the window.
  In a sense, the game was given away by my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath) when he said that a single market requires a single currency. That is erroneous. Tell that to the Americans, Canadians and Mexicans—they have joined up in a free trade area. When he was trying to demonstrate the correctness of what he was saying, he said that we should look at the United States of America. Of course, the United States is precisely what I am describing. It is a single country with a single Treasury Secretary and a single Government.
  Mr. Doug Hoyle: There is only one dollar in the United States.
  Mr. Lawson: That is my point. They all go together —the single currency, the single central bank, the single finance ministry and the single Government. We must be clear that that is the choice facing us.
  The idea that we can have an independent European central bank alone, which would be far and away the most powerful institution in the Community with no accountability to anybody, is absolutely bizarre and democratically unacceptable. One of the extraordinary oddities—I put it no stronger than that—of the Opposition's position is that, with the enthusiasm of the convert, they have embraced the single currency and an
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  independent European central bank, but they will not tolerate an independent Bank of England. That is a very strange position for any party, even the Labour party, to adopt.
  Mrs. Currie: As my right hon. Friend probably realises, many engineering businesses in Derbyshire which trade in Europe already trade in deutschmarks. How much control and influence does the House have over that?
  Mr. Lawson: I have never been engaged in increasing governmental control. I am happy that the Government of whom I was proud to be a member and who were led by my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) abolished exchange controls. Business men in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, South (Mrs. Currie) and elsewhere are now free to trade in any currency they choose. However, the advantages of having just a single currency are less than my hon. Friend may think.
  Mr. George Robertson: In an article in the Evening Standard last week, the right hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) concluded by saying that the Prime Minister should sign the economic and monetary union treaty at Maastricht because it was open to the other 11 members to go ahead with the treaty on their own. I put to the right hon. Member for Blaby, who has an intellectual reputation, a question that was put to the Prime Minister yesterday. If the other 11 were to go ahead on their own, what would be the position of sterling in relation to the single European ecu? Would it be able to float free or would it be forced to shadow the ecu? The right hon. Member for Blaby knows something about that.
  Mr. Lawson: I do not believe that the other 11 will go on their own, even though they are free to do so.
  There are budgetary consequences, too, of a single currency and they are spelled out in the Dutch draft treaty. It has been said that we do not need those to be spelled out explicitly and that we can rely on market disciplines. In theory that may be the case, but in practice it is doubtful. Market disciplines depend on a no-bailing-out rule under which the Community as a whole would not bail out a country in difficulties, just as a US federal Government would not bail out a state and we would not bail out a local authority. That may lack market credibility even if it is true.
  Other important problems such as debt overhang have not yet even been addressed. The various countries that comprise the Community have built up a considerable national debt which they were able to sell and have freely held, because those countries were responsible for their own currencies. Once they cease to be responsible for their own low currencies, the readiness to hold the existing debt, never mind any further debt, would be in doubt in a number of countries, although perhaps not in all.
  Several countries would face a critical situation in which they would not be able to borrow any more in the world's markets. Their burden of debt interest would rise considerably and they would have to raise taxes to meet that. There might even be a run on the Government. The market would see it coming and that would begin to affect the financial markets and the markets in that debt well before a single currency came about, if the market thinks that a single currency is on the way.

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  It is interesting to consider the other half of Europe. The more perceptive analysts of the political economy of the former Soviet Union are increasingly concluding that the only possible way out is to do away with the single currency, the rouble, and, on economic and political grounds, for the various republics to have their own currencies. Experts as far apart as Mr. George Soros and Professor John Williamson have reached that conclusion.
  Let us consider the draft treaties. The political union treaty in its present form, for the reasons that I have given and for those given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, is clearly unacceptable. However, I believe that the EMU treaty is something that the Government can sign, now that the stand-aside clause is written into it, and there is the declaration, which is separate from the treaty, of support in principle for the single currency, which we shall not be signing, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear. That is very important. I am glad that the declaration is there, because our ability to refrain from signing it demonstrates our position on that issue.
  Mr. William Cash: At the beginning of the draft treaty on EMU, there is a treaty obligation under clauses 2 and 3(a) which would commit us to a single currency and fixed exchange rates. Will my right hon. Friend clarify that?
  Mr. Lawson: I do not believe that my hon. Friend is right. The treaty clearly states that everything is governed
  "as provided for in this treaty",
  and the treaty contains the opt-out clause.
  The convergence conditions in fact make it unlikely that eight or even seven countries will be willing and able to qualify in the event. Those conditions are not an optional extra: they are inherent in the very nature of the enterprise. Germany is conscious of the immense problems that arose in relation to currency union with eastern Germany. Germany is aware that such convergence conditions, or something very much like them, are absolutely essential.
  I could support stage 2, with the independent national central banks co-operating together, as the Germans would like to see, under the Committee of Central Bank Governors, renamed the European Monetary Institute. That would be perfectly acceptable, but as a stopping point. That is a perfectly adequate constitution for the monetary side of Europe.
  But the real purpose behind all this is not economic: it is political. I believe that there is no net economic gain and that the politics is the politics of Europe past, not the politics of Europe future.
  6.48 pm
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: In the interests of time, and not wanting to abuse Privy Councillors' time, perhaps I should not refer to the speech made by the right hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) except in one respect. I found his comments about federalism extremely interesting.
  A headline in The Times today states:
  "Delors gives MEPs mocking account of Britain's stance."
  I simply say to Mr. Delors that I was in Vichy France in 1944 when the French fought each other. I do not mock it: it happened. That was a problem that France faced. If we have old historical problems and old historical ideas based on an unwritten constitution and the fact that we are averse to federalism, I hope that he will not mock. What
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  happened in Vichy France was endemic to France, and our feeling against federalism is something that we have grown up with over the years.
  This may be my last speech in a major debate. However, last week I saw a reissue of "The Four Feathers", a colour film which was issued in 1939 and which I paid one and sixpence to see. The film has been reissued, and it is very good. Reissued though the film was, people did not appreciate it in the way in which we younger people would have done in 1939.
  I was selected as a parliamentary candidate in 1952, and when I stood in 1955, we were at the beginning of the EEC debate. When I became more active and entered the House after the death of Hugh Gaitskell, it was the greatest problem of the Labour party. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) will remember that he was then a research officer at Transport house. The EEC was also the subject of discussion among the Conservative party.
  The conflict of views about going into Europe which was led by men whom I respected, such as Ernest Bevin, Attlee and Churchill, was not because they were evil men but because they came from a generation when going into Europe and eschewing the open sea was something that they could not comprehend. Now, with a wider membership and, as the right hon. Member for Blaby said, with what is happening in eastern Europe, with a broadening role in the face of new problems, and with the changes of the war years over, I have come to believe not that we should just be members but that we should play a more positive role not only to influence the future, which is important, but to change the existing system.
  I wish to refer to some of the existing institutions of the EC. Beyond Maastricht, we must consider those institutions closely. I look askance at the presidency system. Small countries are initiating discussion and moving forward on matters such as defence and foreign affairs about which they know very little. The Dutch Foreign Minister could draw up a constitution on every subject under the sun every morning before breakfast. Perhaps he could do one for Northern Ireland.
  Mr. Molyneaux: William of Orange.
  Mr. Rees: The fact that it would not work would make no difference.
  We should initiate change in the bureaucratic Commission. The right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath), a former Prime Minister, was not concerned about the bureaucratic Commission.
  Mr. David Trimble: I take the point that the right hon. Gentleman makes about the presidency. The over-representation of small countries provides a built-in vote in favour of federalism. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that that applies equally to the weight that they are given in the Council of Ministers and in the Parliament, and that equal representation and equal say, proportionate to size, are important?
  Mr. Rees: That subject should surely be examined. The point that I was raising was the six-month presidency, when countries seem to be more determined to show their political virility than to find a way forward. I certainly have no objection to the smaller countries. I was talking about the six-month presidency, which raises problems.

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  Of course the European Parliament needs more powers, but we should watch it very carefully. Over the years I have noticed some excellent Euro-Members, many of whom have ended up in this place. The aim of many Labour Members of the European Parliament is to come here. The fact that only 30 per cent. of people vote in a European election demonstrates a lack of interest in Euro elections. All parties need to do something about that.
  My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition made clear his objection on foreign affairs, to the methods suggested in the treaty. Let us look at the practicalities and at the way in which the EC has behaved over Yugoslavia. The right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion, (Mr. Amery), to whom I always defer because he played a major part in a southern Slav country, 40 or 50 years ago—
  Mr. Giles Radice: And Albania.
  Mr. Rees: He was there too, but he behaved extraordinarily bravely during the Yugoslavian campaign. Most hon. Members would not appreciate that.
  The Germans, with their long-term policy in favour of Croatia and Slovenia, had to have seven divisions in Yugoslavia to hold them down. I played a small part in the air war. Anybody who believes that Yugoslavia could be dealt with as Saddam Hussein's Iraq was dealt with had better look at the terrain. The Serbs, with whom the right hon. Gentleman was fighting, who were fighting in the mountains, held up seven German divisions. The Italians were involved in a divided-up Croatia. The EC was romancing when it talked about dealing with the Yugoslav problem. There is no way of dealing with that country unless one redraws the boundaries, and that would be a difficult task. It is not enough just to have a common foreign policy. A common foreign policy means nothing if it cannot be implemented.
  On defence, if America is not involved, Germany or France will become the main nuclear power in Europe. It is important to remember that. There could not be a European defence force that was not a nuclear power. I would prefer America rather than France, Germany or ourselves to be the nuclear power. That raises other issues.
  The political side also relates to defence. The first time that I heard of Maastricht was on 12 May 1940, when the RAF was shot out of the sky and knocked on the ground. Fairey Battle squadrons went in to attack bridges over the canal at Maastricht. They were massacred. Politicians of all parties should realise how foolish they can be. Two young men won the Victoria cross at that time. They deserved the VC. The then politicians led them into battle without the right equipment and without a proper defence agreement.
  Of course, there was a defence agreement with the French, but what it added up to was mere chat. If there is to be a defence agreement, it must be in terms of integration of weaponry, what the targets are, and the supply of equipment. The day after the Maastricht massacre, the French general commanding the armêe de l'air said, that he was sorry, but they were the wrong targets; that was not where the Germans were. By the time they were located, the Germans were into France.
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  It is not enough to have a political policy, and it is not enough to have a defence policy just to give it a name. It will not happen that way. Therefore, we must watch matters very carefully.
  The decisions will be taken in the next Parliament, when I will not be here. Nor will 60, 70 or even more hon. Members when they lose their seats, plus another 100 or so who will retire. It is not the place of this House to take final decisions. It is up to the new Parliament to take final decisions. We are simply conducting a holding operation. My hon. Friend the Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) advises me, as he always does, that a Bill amending the treaty will be before the House. It is important that we do not hand to our successors decisions made at the end of a dying Parliament; we should leave them to take the decisions in future. We should take it easy and not be led by the nose by the Commission or by the Council of Foreign Ministers. Let us not always be looking for great change. Let us see how it goes. Important changes will also take place in economic affairs, but it is the next Parliament that will matter.
  I have tried to end my speech before 7 o'clock, because many other right hon. and hon. Members want to contribute. I will finish by looking back—which, at my age, I do far too often. I have taken my children to the battlefields of north-east France as a result of which their grandfather died because of the foolishness of politicians. We must judge the second world war differently, but let us make sure that we do not repeat the mistakes that so many politicians thoughout Europe made over the past 100 years. They made elementary mistakes for which young men died.
  We must think hard. Just after the war, I taught in a grammar school, and one day the French assistance said to me, "This school will clap itself to death." I begin to believe that the House will clap itself to death one day. We think that we are so good and do everything absolutely correctly, but of course we do not. We sneer at the European Parliament, but it is time that we looked at Europe in other than a partisan way—"Ha ha, ha. Did you hear what happened? Did you hear what he said? Wasn't that funny?" We should look to the future, and if we make mistakes young men and women will die. I do not want my grandchildren to do what their grandfather did, or even marginally what I had to do.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean): Order. I remind the House that the 10-minute limit on speeches is now in effect.
  7 pm
  Sir Geoffrey Finsberg: I agreed with much of what the right hon. Member for Morley and Leeds, South (Mr. Rees) said at the beginning of his speech, but I did not go along with his closing remarks.
  I want to make one comment about the referendum before dealing with the main subject of my speech. I won a marginal seat and have held it on five successive occasions. I believe that real democracy is allowing voters to decide in a general election and not in a referendum, which is a totally different thing, and one that is alien to my concept of democracy.

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  My party is a broad church, with room for many shades of opinion. I urge my right hon. and hon. Friends—be they pro or anti-European fanatics—to remember that voters will not support a party that is riven by doubts or dissent. The voters will write off the Opposition, whose policies are now purely hypocritical and do not matter. I appeal to my right hon. and hon. Friends to realise that elections are lost by a party that is divided.
  I turn to defence and security issues, and speak as the leader of the United Kingdom delegation to the Western European Union and to the Council of Europe. I much regretted the dismissive attitude taken by my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath), who has clearly totally forgotten that the Western European Union was revitalised, added Spain and Portugal to its ranks, and produced the Hague platform—which provided for the WEU's nine members to defend their borders, with nuclear weapons if need be. It undertook out-of-area activities in respect of minesweeping in the Iran-Iraq war, and of the sanction stopping of ships during the Gulf war. My right hon. Friend cannot write off the WEU as simply and as simplistically as he did.
  Recently, both the Franco-German and Italian-British defence proposals were presented, followed by the valuable NATO conclusions. Again, I disagree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup in his comments on NATO, which were so childish as to be not worth considering.
  I will inform the House of the conclusions of the parliamentary assembly of the Western European Union, which comprises elected members from the Parliaments of France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Luxembourg, Belgium, Holland, and the United Kingdom. In December 1990, the parliamentary assembly
  "adopted a position opposed to certain proposals for WEU to be integrated in the European Community, Its view was that, if implemented, these proposals would weaken the Atlantic Alliance and also Europe's ability to play a useful role on the world stage. The Assembly therefore recommended that the Council pursue the reactivation of WEU in order to allow Europe to play a more effective part in NATO."
  That decision was carried overwhelmingly, with the support of all four of the political parties represented in the WEU.
  Subsequently, the presidential committee, which runs the WEU between assemblies, decided to offer advice to both the Council of Ministers and the intergovernmental conference. I was given the task of preparing a document, which was adopted without opposition in March 1991 by all nine nations and all four political parties. I will quote from it, because it is important to do so in the context of the reasons that have been given for not giving the WEU control of defence.
  "WEU could establish a link between a Europe in the process of unification and an Atlantic Alliance in the process of transformation and thus provide the vehicle for a stronger Europe to contribute more to joint security …
  WEU must be at one and the same time the means of allowing Europe to make its voice heard in a Euro-American dialogue"—
  it must never be forgotten that Europe must always have an input into that dialogue—
  "of which the Atlantic Alliance is the institutional framework and the instrument for making the most of the European contribution to the defence of the West …
  This contribution of Europe is the more essential in that the American military presence on the continent of Europe, reduced since the war in the Gulf, will remain below what it was in the past … Defence policy should continue to be made in the organisations which assure collective defence, NATO,
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  and WEU. It should be a task of the European Council to reach conclusions on common foreign and security policy. These would serve as a guideline for co-operation within WEU on defence matters"—
  not control, but guidelines.
  A linked theme, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) and others referred is the position of the members of the former Warsaw pact, who desperately want to be accepted and acknowledged as democratic. I had the privilege of leading two teams of Council of Europe observers to elections in east Germany and, recently, Poland, and I have spoken to Bulgarians, Hungarians, and Czechs—the last two are now full members of the Council of Europe.
  They realise that their route to the Community can be opened only if their countries are practising real democracy in respect of human rights, and multi-party Parliaments—although I said to my Polish friends, "You can go a bit too far." More importantly, in the light of the events in Yugoslavia, whose guest membership of the Council of Europe is likely to be suspended, those countries must provide proper protection for minorities. The question of protecting minorities is one that will pose a real danger to Europe in the next five years.
  It is simplistic to say that one should recognise Slovenia or Croatia. If one did so now, that would unleash some of the most horrible massacres in the other states of what was Yugoslavia. However, I acknowledge the tragedy of not recognising those two states. I do not propose at this stage to try to provide an answer. I only say that it is the route of the Council of Europe that has been recognised by the Community as leading to Community membership itself. That cannot be bypassed, because one cannot have in Community membership countries that do not follow the concepts of democracy and human rights.
  I address a final word to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and to my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary. When they go to Maastricht, they will face difficult choices and tasks. They should remind their opposite numbers that their own parliamentarians—the French, Germans, and Italians—all subscribed to the view that the defence issue to which I referred should not be brought within the European Community. The Prime Ministers and Foreign Secretaries of France, Germany, Italy, the Benelux or wherever should be reminded that they will have to account to their own Parliament.
  I advise the right hon. Member for Morley and Leeds, South that the advantage of organisations such as the Council of Europe and the Western European Union is that they are composed of Members of their own national Parliaments who have roots inside democracies, and that those parliamentarians have spoken and have said no to the inclusion of defence in the competence of the European Community.
  I hope that that will be of some help to my right hon. and hon. Friends. It is something on which they can rely and something that their colleagues in other countries will find difficult to deny.
  7.9 pm
  Mr. Giles Radice: The European Community is one of the great success stories of the post-war world. As the Soviet Union collapses, the European Community, which is a union of free peoples, gathers strength. It is already a community of 12 members, and it could be a community of 20 by the beginning off the

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  next century. It is the world's greatest trading bloc and, with economic and monetary union, it could have the world's strongest currency. As the Foreign Secretary pointed out this afternoon, it increasingly takes a co-ordinated view of foreign policy issues. It is inconceivable that, by the end of the century, it will not also have a common defence identity.
  Whatever we do, the nation states of Europe wil increasingly combine. They will do so of their own volition, which makes the analogy with the Soviet Union or Yugoslavia patently false. The form that that closer union takes will be sui generis. It will be partly federal and partly confederal, but whatever form it takes, go ahead it will, whether we like it or not.
  The question for the nation and this House is whether we participate in the process of union or stand aside. I agree with the Prime Minister that we must be at the heart of Europe, working with our partners to build Europe's future. For too long, the British have been reluctant Europeans—for understandable reasons, because our strong sense of national identity has been shaped by our exceptional history. Unlike the other 11 members of the EC, Britain has not experienced serious military defeat, occupation, civil war or revolution for at least 200 years.
  At the end of the war, as one of the victors, we still believed in the absolute viability of the independent nation state. Our parliamentary tradition and constitutional development and our system of law have set us apart from the continent. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Leeds, South (Mr. Rees) that, because of our world empire, we looked outwards, across the Atlantic, rather than to the mainland of Europe.
  However, since 1945, our past has proved a poor guide. In the post-war world, our power has been reduced. We are now no more and no less than a medium-sized European power. Sadly, a whole generation of political leaders—and even some of their successors today, if what we have heard in the past two days is right—have failed to face up to that fact. When our decline in influence and shift in interest argued strongly for participation in Europe, they remained ambivalent about those whom they thought of as "unreliable continentals". We have heard some of that from the right hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit).
  As a consequence, Britain squandered crucial opportunities over the Schuman plan in 1950, over the common market in 1955 and 1957, and over British entry into the European monetary system in the late 1970s and 1980s. In the end, after allowing those proposals to go forward without us, we were forced to join after the terms had been fixed. It was a classic failure of political leadership. We must not make the same mistake again. Therefore, it is the Government's duty to explain why Britain has to be involved in the process of economic and political union which will be launched at Maastricht.
  Geographically, Britain is a group of islands off the mainland of Europe. Historically and culturally, it has always been linked to the continent. Strategically, what happens there has always been and is bound to be of vital interest to Britain. Economically, we cannot afford to be excluded from a group that includes most of our main trading partners, including our biggest partner of all, the Federal Republic of Germany.
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  I believe that the Government understand those inescapable facts. They know perfectly well that we cannot afford to be left out. They know that, if Britain is really to remain at the heart of Europe, we must sign—if not at Maastricht, then soon after. The Government should tell the House the truth about that. They should stop pretending that they are in a position—that the country is in a position—to refuse to sign the treaties. They should stop portraying themselves as doughty defenders of a Britain that is besieged by marauding continentals. That was always the portrait that was painted by the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) and I am afraid that that is occasionally true of the present Prime Minister also. That may go down well with some Euro-sceptics among Conservative Members, but it infuriates our partners and reduces our influence in the Community, as I know only too well.
  Equally vitally, the Government are failing to make a positive case for European integration. Listening to the Prime Minister, one gets little idea that a single European currency would end transaction costs for business and tourists; eliminate exchange rate instability; provide a stable environment for growth and be the most powerful currency in the world. One certainly would not understand that the real choice was between de facto membership of a deutschmark zone in which we would have no influence and membership of a single currency system in which we would have a stake.
  Above all, the Government have failed to point out that the doctrine of sovereignty, so frequently espoused by the right hon. Member for Finchley, is totally out of date. The British concept of parliamentary sovereignty is basically a hangover from Tudor despotism, with little relevance today. It fails to comprehend the weakness of the House of Commons when the Government have a majority. It fails to guarantee civil rights, as our lamentable record at the European Court of Human Rights shows. It underwrites the British state, which is the most centralised in the whole of the European Community.
  Equally important, it does not correspond to the facts of the modern world. For over 40 years, we have shared sovereignty in NATO, as the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath) rightly pointed out. For the past 20 years, developments in the capital and financial markets have drastically reduced our autonomy in economic management. Since we joined the EC in 1973, we have lost sovereignty in the areas of trade and agriculture. Later, with the Single European Act and British membership of the exchange rate mechanism—the right hon. Member for Finchley took us into that—our sovereignty was further eroded.
  For a medium-sized power such as Britain, the best way to maximise our influence is to pool sovereignty by combining with others. Most European nations understand that, which is why they want to be active members of the European Community. The fact is that there is no alternative to working with our partners in the EC. That point has been reinforced in this debate by the total failure of the Euro-sceptics to come forward with any positive idea about Britain's role. We have not heard a single word. They have made interesting and occasionally convincing criticisms, but they have totally failed to suggest an alternative future for this country.
  I congratulate my right hon. and hon. Friends on the positive case that they have made on behalf of the Labour party, especially for common environmental policies and

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  for minimum social standards as proposed by the social charter, which has been agreed by 11 other countries. My right hon. and hon. Friends have also rightly emphasised that, if one intends to make Community institutions more accountable, one must increase the powers of the European Parliament. They are right to say that.
  Labour's positive agenda opens up the prospect for the first time since we joined the Community in 1973 of Britain participating constructively in the European Community. That is the only way of securing the future of the British people.
  7.19 pm
  Mr. Norman Tebbit: I shall not take up the argument of the hon. Member for Durham, North (Mr. Radice); it would be unwise to do so. This is a strange debate because, although the motions on the Order Paper tabled by both the Government and the official Opposition parties are long on words, they are short on relevance to the vital questions raised by the draft treaties which will be discussed at Maastricht.
  The real issue was put in possibly the best speech that I have heard in this place by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) last night. The question that he put is the right question: are the British people to be governed by those who are accountable to them, or those who are unaccountable or accountable to others? That question is not on the Order Paper. That is why tonight's vote will be interesting but irrelevant.
  In a short speech, I shall not attempt to make again the points made so tellingly by others, not least my right hon. Friends the Members for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher), for Shropshire, North (Mr. Biffen), for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), the right hon. Members for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) and for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) and my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash).
  In his speech, the Prime Minister set out the weak position from which he negotiates on economic and monetary union. He told us that he would not accept a treaty that was not in Britain's interest. I am sure that that is so, but he also reminded us that, if he vetoed the draft treaty, the 11 other member states would go outside the treaty of Rome and sign a currency agreement of their own, leaving us out. Bonne chance, say I, as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury. But the Prime Minister has declared that that would be unacceptably damaging to us.
  Indeed, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe), in a speech right out of the defeatist book which is kept at the Foreign Office, seemed to declare that a nation with its own currency could not survive in the days of the ecu. Tell that to the marines, and especially the Japanese marines. If the Prime Minister is convinced that we cannot be excluded from the single currency, he cannot afford not to sign the treaty. If that is so, he is not negotiating but pleading for terms.
  The Prime Minister says that signing the treaty is merely taking an option on the right to join. But the option has two costs. First, whether in or out, we would bear the cost of supporting the economies which had been made non-viable by the single currency. That is the price of regional aid or structural spending. Secondly, we should have made a moral commitment to the single currency.
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  Why pass enabling legislation to do what most Members of the House and most voters do not want to do? Why get engaged if we do not truly intend to marry? I remind the House that couples in the intimate atmosphere of engagement sometimes find that pregnancy arises and the shotgun marriage follows.
  Leaving aside the issue of sovereignty—not of the House but of the people to self-government—the devil of the single currency is not merely that the economies of the Community are simply not convergent and would be prevented from converging by a single currency, but that they are not all at the same point in their economic cycles.
  The exchange rate mechanism is a voluntary prototype for a single currency. That is why, when the French economy was screaming for lower interest rates, President Mitterrand increased them the other day. The German economy and the Bundesbank—independent, I am told —are screaming for higher interest rates. But interest rates are not raised. It would be madness indeed if the ERM was allowed to force an interest rate rise in Britain.
  I suspect that there is a deal, spoken or unspoken, which further undermines the Prime Minister's negotiating position. I think Chancellor Kohl has indicated that he knows the risk to the Government's chances of re-election if interest rates have to be raised in Britain. He may have said that there will be no increase in German rates before Maastricht—indeed, hopefully, so long as the treaty is signed, not before our general election. "That, John," says Helmut, "is what European solidarity is about."
  But what chance of help if the Prime Minister vetoes the treaty? After all, thinks Helmut, if interest rates rise, perhaps Labour will come in, which is a soft touch not only on the single currency but on political union. [Interruption.] I am glad that the right hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Kinnock) follows the joke. It is the only thing that he has followed so far in the debate.
  There is only one way for the Prime Minister to strengthen his hand. He should legislate now for a referendum to be held once the negotiations at Maastricht are complete. It should put simple yes or no questions on whether the European monetary treaty—and, if there is one, the political treaty—should be accepted. He should say, "It is not me you must persuade, Helmut, but the British people. In Britain it is they who are sovereign."
  In the final minutes available to me, I turn to the proposals for political union. On that matter I stand where my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath) stood on 24 May 1971. He said:
  "There are certain administrative arrangements which are handled by the Commission and which are clearly defined in the Treaty of Rome, and they cannot go beyond their powers. But our view is that it is the Council of Ministers, representing member countries, who must take the decisions."
  He went on to emphasise the importance of the national veto and said:
  "When I urged that there should be democratic control, I had in mind that Ministers are the representatives of their Governments and they are the ones who take the decisions. They are responsible to their own democracies."—[Official Report, 24 May 1971; Vol. 818, c. 43–44.]
  Amen to that, say I. I have not changed my mind, even if my right hon. Friend has changed his.
  A week or so ago I heard—others may have done so, too—Lord Cockfield assert that
  "the British people had no moral right and probably no legal right"
  to resist the demands of a federal Europe. We can argue about what "federal" means, but Chancellor Kohl knows

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  that he is head of a federal state. All the important issues, such as the economy, foreign affairs, defence, immigration and social affairs, are dealt with in Bonn. The rest is left to the provinces. In a federal Europe, that would be the pattern. With England, Scotland, Wales and Ulster seen as provinces like Saxony or Aquitaine, what role would there be for the Government or Parliament of the United Kingdom?
  Not only must federalism be stopped in its tracks. The treaty of Rome should be amended to uphold the union of nation state and exclude a federal destiny. In the words of Winston Churchill, who has been much quoted already in the debate:
  "We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked but not comprised. We are interested and associated but not absorbed and should European statesmen address us in the words which were used of old—'Shall we speak for thee to the king or captain of the host?'—we should reply. 'Nay sir, for we dwell among our own people'".
  That remains my view today.
  I repeat that the question on the Order Paper tonight is irrelevant to the question before the House and the country. We might be asked just as well to vote on any three pages picked at random out of "Alice in Wonderland" as on the motions before the House tonight. How can one vote in such circumstances? My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary recently came out of his negotiations with, among others, our French partners, and, in his diplomatic way, observed that, like Waterloo, it had been hard pounding. I yield to no one in my admiration for the great Iron Duke himself, but my favourite general of the Napoleonic wars was General Kutuzov. I shall follow his example.
  7.29 pm
  Mr. Nigel Spearing: I have disagreed with the political views of the right hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) on many occasions, but he has just highlighted what might be called self-government and he rightly pointed out—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean): Order. Will hon. Members who are leaving the Chamber please do so quietly?
  Mr. Spearing: The right hon. Gentleman said that the self-government of this country is in peril and, while I disagree with his domestic politics, he is right to point that out.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Durham, North (Mr. Radice) has a vision of an international society, but the treaty before us—including the treaty of Rome—is not an international treaty. That is why many Opposition Members have consistently and persistently been against it.
  The right hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) has said that he was attracted to the treaty of Rome because he thought that it would provide the vehicle to achieve the objectives that he, my hon. Friend the Member for Durham, North and those of us who want a co-operating, international western Europe seek. However, the right hon. Member for Blaby did not say that tonight, because he now realises that it is not a treaty of that sort. Although the right hon. Member for Chingford agreed with his right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr.
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  Heath) way back in 1972, 1973 and 1974, he has also come to the same conclusion. Some of us, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) and my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Leighton) came to that conclusion a long time ago.
  The right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) has at last realised that perhaps she, too, made some mistakes when she was a member of the Government led by the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup. I intervened to ask him what mandate he had, but I should have asked what electoral mandate. Of course, he did not have one; nor did the right hon. Member for Finchley have a mandate for the Single European Act; and nor does the Prime Minister have an electoral mandate to agree what may come out of Maastricht—he has not even got a parliamentary mandate yet. That is why, either in this Parliament or, more probably, in the next, the machinery for giving legal effect to any treaty that may come about will be a Bill which will have to be passed by the House.
  The right hon. Member for Finchley is not the only person to have erred on the subject—I shall come to the Prime Minister in a moment. I am glad that the right hon. Lady is here, because no one would deny that she at least has courage, but I doubt whether she has the instinct for parliamentary government, which some of us believe in. She went to Madrid where the principle of the Delors report was up for discussion.
  It is not a matter of memory, but a matter of record, that there was no debate on the Delors report before that summit. There had been a debate some time before on the general subject of a single currency, but not on the report. Yet, when she was confronted with a political situation not unlike that confronting the present Prime Minister—to take the least worst solution—she agreed to the principle of economic and monetary union. The question was, by what means and when? The principle was agreed by the right hon. Lady before any mandate had been given by the House, let alone the electorate.
  If the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup is right, that is the way in which European union works. It does not allow genuine negotiations, but provides a choice between the least worst solutions for leaders of all parties and all Governments. It provides a pattern of coercion and not of co-operation.
  Yesterday, the right hon. Member for Finchley drew our attention to the scope and powers of the Community. She said:
  "It is not the case, as is sometimes alleged, that the Single European Act introduced qualified majority voting in the Community—it was already in the treaty of Rome. As my right hon. Friend said, the Act extended it in certain limited areas for the express and sole purpose of completing the common or single market".—[Official Report, 20 November 1991; Vol. 199, c. 292.]
  I wish that were true. However, as the right hon. Lady knows, or ought to know now, qualified majority voting could operate not in "limited" but in huge and undefined areas under articles 8A and 100A of the treaty. That is very relevant, because it gave away some of the powers of the House. Either the right hon. Member for Finchley knew that that was the case when she drove the Single European Act through the House on a three-line Whip or she did not. If she knew, she did not tell us and if she did not know, someone misled her. The result is that the single market now operates over a huge and almost undefined area.

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  My hon. Friends ask why that is so and the answer is simple. The single market is defined in the treaty as an area "without internal frontiers". It is not merely a question of lorries being able to go through borders, of barriers coming up and barbed wire boundaries on the map being expunged; it is a question of a legal boundary.
  There may be extenuating circumstances. Perhaps the enthusiasm of the right hon. Member for Finchley for market economics led her to say, "Yes, let's have the single market," because she wanted to bring the benefits of market forces to the benighted tribes on the other side of the channel and to drive market economics through. In so doing, she predicated a single market authority and a single Government. As the right hon. Member for Blaby said, a single currency means a single economic policy, which means a single Chancellor of the Exchequer and a single Government. We might end up with government of bankers, by bankers and for bankers. The only way round the problem is a supranational state, which is what the treaty will bring in if we are not careful.
  I give no one cause to believe that I am not an internationalist. The speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Durham, North greatly attracted me in some ways. However, the constitution of the European Community—in the treaty of Rome and the treaty before us—is incapable of providing us with what we seek. It is for that reason that I can have none of the treaty before us today.
  7.38 pm
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I also took part in the vote in the House in 1972. It comes ill from the lips of the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath) to say that he had a mandate to do what he did. I remember the cursing and threats—I saw one hon. Member being hammered over the head with an Order Paper. There was certainly no democracy in the House when it took that vital vote to go into Europe. Every hon. Member who took part in the debate knows that perfectly well.
  Sovereignty of the House has been mentioned, but what is that? It is the sovereignty of the people. People give this House sovereignty, and if we do not have the people behind us, we have no sovereignty. We have witnessed the collapse of a great federal empire in the east, an empire which had a single currency and controlled and regimented its inhabitants. It failed because the people were not consulted and were not behind it. It was brought down by people power.
  We are now told that we should go down that road. Jacques Delors, with his beckoning hands, is saying, "You must all come down this road." I have the privilege of sitting both in Strasbourg and in this House. I took part yesterday in the debate in Strasbourg. I have often wondered what was the motivation of the people of Europe in wishing to build another super-state. Super-states have been dangerous to the peace of the world. They never brought peace. They brought trouble in their wake.
  I got from the Library at Strasbourg a copy of the poster that I am holding up. It is interesting, because it depicts the future of Europe. The picture in the centre is a copy of a painting by a great Belgian painter—[Interruption.] It may be coloured orange, but it is yellow in the centre. It is the tower of Babel. In other words they
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  have chosen to depict the new Europe as the tower of Babel. We are well aware of the European circle of stars, with five pointed stars, one point facing heaven. Hon. Members will note that the poster tries to square the circle—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean): Order. It would be better if the hon. Gentleman did not use his visual aid.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I have discovered after 45 years of preaching that eye-gate is far more effective than ear-gate. In this poster, the stars are turned upside down. It is wonderful the way in which they turn things upside down and seek to square the circle. We are told that that is the direction we must take.
  I listened with interest to the speech of the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup. He painted a wonderful picture, but I wondered what he was talking about. I recall him telling the people of Britain that, if they voted for Europe, two things would happen—first that we would solve our unemployment problem and, secondly, that we would retain the veto. We have not solved our unemployment problem. The right hon. Gentleman said that he brought unemployment down. I remember when we called him Mr. Million, unemployment having risen at that time to over a million.
  I remember the great things that the right hon. Gentleman said would happen as a result of our joining the Common Market, and I was amazed. In fact, our membership has weakened the economy of the United Kingdom. Food prices are higher and there is a deteriorating balance of trade in manufactured goods with the EC, with the consequent loss of many jobs, especially in manufacturing. There is an adverse effect on United Kingdom exports to non-EC countries. Britain has suffered in its trading activities, and the cost of the CAP has been extravagant, to say the least.
  The precious money that we pour into the Common Market budget would be better disbursed, by whatever Government are in power, in this country. Think of the £2,769 million that was paid by this country in 1978 to finance the CAP. That was equal to the cost of building more than 100 much-neeeded NHS hospitals, and 14 times more than the amount spent on all the textbooks in all United Kingdom secondary schools. We have heard in the House today details of a false balance.
  I am not opposed to co-operation among the nations of Europe, but the time has come to realise that the future for the European nations lies in co-operation rather than incorporation. It lies in unity and not in uniformity, in national sovereignty and not in international submergence. It should be a federation of nations, a family of nations, and not a federation of nations.
  Mr. Andrew Rowe (Mid-Kent): Will the hon. Gentleman, in his eloquent address, put an estimate on the cost to this country of the efforts that we had to make —when we had, as he believes, our full sovereignty—twice this century to restrain the exercise of national sovereignty by those who are now our partners in Europe?
  Rev. Ian Paisley: That is an irrelevant question, because we could have wars again in Europe. Indeed, a bloody conflict is now occurring, yet the EC is not handling that properly. The right hon. Member for Morley and Leeds, South (Mr. Rees), a former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, gave a warning to that effect. Surely we

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  shall not have wars among ourselves? I thought that the Germans had been regenerated and that the French had been converted. Are we not all good friends and neighbours? It appears that the hon. Gentleman's question is totally irrelevant to the debate.
  The British Government need not go cap in hand to Europe. We have five strong bargaining points. First, the United Kingdom is one of the major contributors to the EC budget; secondly, this country is the only net consumer in the EC of many of the agricultural products that are currently in surplus; thirdly, Britain is overwhelmingly a net importer of EC manufactures; fourthly, this country is the most important provider of fishing waters forming the EC's common fishing policy; and fifthly, the United Kingdom is the only EC country sufficient in energy. Those are all vital bargaining counters. In view of that, and the references that have been made to the strength of NATO and Western European Union, we should not be going cap in hand to Europe.
  It is regrettable that in this House and Strasbourg there seems to be a desire to divide the people of this nation rather than to strengthen the hands of those who are negotiating for us. When I was in Strasbourg yesterday, the leader of this country's socialists, Mr. Ford, pleaded with the Council not to allow the British Government to dictate terms to the whole of Europe. "Do not let them cripple our common future," was the point of his argument. If Jacques Delors has his way, our nation will be not a cripple but a corpse.
  7.49 pm
  Mr. John Home Robertson: It would have been surprising if the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) had enthused on anything based on the treaty of Rome. However, it is a happy day for a Member for East Lothian to be able to support a Labour party motion in a debate on the European Community. It has not always been thus, as old friends of John P. Mackintosh may recall.
  This interesting debate can perhaps best be described as a re-run of an old debate between little Englanders and British Europeans. In the old days, the debate within the Labour party was between sceptics, who feared that the European Community would remain forever a market for the benefit of the strong and privileged, and the Euro optimists, who believed that Europe could develop into a Community with social priorities. On one occasion, when I got carried away, I expressed the view that, to deal with the problem of multinational capitalism, we needed multinational socialism and that the European Community was the way to achieve it.
  Happily, the doubts of the Euro-sceptics—or most of them—in the Labour party have been overtaken by the social charter, regional policy, environmental initiatives and the drive towards a fairer, broader and more democratic Europe. Surely democracy and the need for democratic accountability are crucial to this debate. There cannot be good government in a democratic society without genuine and credible accountability.
  There is a growing democratic deficit within the European Community, as collective powers have developed and accumulated within the Council of Ministers and the Commission. We must redress that
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  deficit. At the same time, to the eternal shame of this House, we have lost local, regional and national accountability in Britain as more and more powers have been centralised in Whitehall. In Scotland, that democratic deficit can be summed up as nine uncompromising Tories imposing their will, despite the fact that they are comprehensively outvoted by the other 63 elected members of Parliament from Scotland. That should be regarded as the basis of a constitutional crisis by any standards.
  While we are safeguarding the rights of nations within the European Community, we must follow the Germans and Spaniards in providing democratic accountability and safeguards for the nationl and regions within Europe's conglomerate states. I remind the House that Britain is not and never has been a nation. Rather, it is a union of nations, which the Government have not respected in recent years. The principle of subsidiarity must not stop at Westminster but must go further.
  Many Conservative Members have drawn great inspiration from the dreadful speech by the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) in Bruges in 1988. The speech included the following passage of awe-inspiring hypocrisy:
  "To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve. Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, and Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality."
  The right hon. Member for Finchley—the second hammer of the Scots—tried to fit the Scottish nation into an identikit Thatcherite personality that was totally alien and abhorrent to most of our national customs, to our traditions and identity. She spent her premiership concentrating unprecedented power at the centre of her Whitehall conglomerate, yet there she was, whingeing about the supression of nationhood.
  The supression of historic nations is a dangerous business, as we see in many parts of Europe today. The House would do well to recognise that, within the next couple of years, Scotland will have its own Parliament for a people who overwhelminghly aspire to have home rule within the United Kingdom and direct access to European institutions on the same basis as the German Lander and Spain's national regions.
  I appreciate that this debate must be difficult for many people from all political persuasions in England. It must be difficult for English people to reconcile themselves to sharing powers with other nations after such a long history of independence and, latterly, of dominating other nations. But history is marching on, and not even England can opt out of the reality that is developing in Europe. It can stand on the sidelines while everyone else moves on but it cannot stop the process. This is not the Flat Earth Society but the real world, and we should take part in it.
  The House could learn a little from Scotland's experience in 1707, when the rulers of Scotland were persuaded—or perhaps bribed—to enter what was described as "an incorporating union" with England. It was very controversial. There was to be a common market, a monetary union and a political union. It left many important national institutions secure—the legal system, the banks, the Church and the administrative structure, but the one fatal flaw was that we sacrificed our

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  Parliament. Otherwise, that union has been a tremendous success, with shared resources and opportunities, and great achievements over the years. However, the lack of parliamentary accountability over the Executive in Scotland has now degenerated into a running sore, particularly as the political priorities of our two nations have increasingly diverged in the past 50 years.
  Increasingly, Scots look to European institutions for protection against the excesses of an unaccountable British Government. This Parliament is supposed to apply democratic scrutiny and accountability to Scotland's national administration, but it does not do so. Under present circumstances, it cannot do so.
  The great totem of this debate seems to be the sanctity and sovereignty of this House. It has been described over the years as the Mother of Parliaments but in recent years it would be more appropriate to describe it, for so many of our citizens, as the ugly sister. What sort of mother inflicts a poll tax on its people? What kind of scrutiny system allows a poll tax to be inflicted on a nation? There are lessons to be drawn from that.
  There are fundamental flaws in our democratic system, both in the United Kingdom and the European Community. Major constitutional reforms are long overdue and I welcome the fact that the Laour party is leading the debate in those areas. If the House is to rise to the occasion of this debate, it should tell the Prime Minister to go to Maastricht and work positively toward economic convergence and monetary and political union with the European Community, even if it involves going in the direction of federalism. We must also take radical steps to correct the democratic deficit in the European Community and the United Kingdom. The Prime Minister will not do that, but the Labour party will.
  7.58 pm
  Mr. Julian Amery: There has been a galaxy of talent in this debate from the Front and Back Benches, but the most important speech was made outside the House of Commons yesterday—by Mr. Delors in Strasbourg. The words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) about our being on a conveyor belt to federalism were still ringing in my ears when I picked up the morning papers and read that Mr. Delors had said that Ministers had betrayed everything and that there was no federalism left in the proposals contained in the Council of Ministers' draft. The British had undermined them.
  I rubbed my eyes and wondered what it all meant. I then thought that it would be rather fun if MI6 had suborned Mr. Delors and persuaded him—I do not know how—that perhaps he should stop being a federalist. Or was he throwing dust into the eyes of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister so that he would think that he did not have to work so hard? On analysing the speech, I concluded that it was a real cry of anguish from a man who is a genuine federalist and saw his whole work in danger of being betrayed.
  Those of us who are frightened of federalism should take heed of the entirely opposite view expressed by Mr. Delors. He said that the Council of Ministers was betraying the principles of the founding fathers, by whom he meant Jean Monnet and the Demochristian leaders—Adenauer, Gaspari and Schumann—who were genuinely federalist. However, they were not the only founders.
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  Winston Churchill was the man who started the process. He thought of European union as something like the old British Commonwealth as defined in the Statute of Westminster. Why did he think that?
  People often forget that, at the beginning of the century, we offered Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Newfoundland a federal empire with a single Government, single navy and total free trade—money did not enter the debate, because we were all on the gold standard. Those countries turned down the offer. So we developed the idea of a Commonwealth, although we did not call it that in those days. In the first world war, in the treaty of Versailles, in the slump of 1929–31 and in the second world war, these countries worked together with us to such an extent that we constituted between us a sort of super-power.
  De Gaulle shared Churchill's view. He put it in his caustic way that he wanted to see a Europe on English lines but without the British.
  Mr. Delors got it wrong. He said that no intergovernmental group had ever been successful. It is curious that a Frenchman should have got it wrong, because, without the Commonwealth, France probably would not have won the first world war and would not have been rescued from the second.
  There have been two great strands of European thinking: the federalist and the union of states, represented by the British and the French. I do not believe that either strand will prevail. A balance will be struck between the two, but at present the balance is wrong. The Council of Ministers should be the Cabinet of Europe and the Commission should be its secretariat, with the Parliament supervising the Commission's work.
  President Giscard d'Estaing got it about right when he would not let Roy Jenkins come to the Ministers' dinner and said that he had better come for the cigars and coffee afterwards. We have allowed the Commission to get too much power into its hands. My right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) saw the danger clearly, but made a mistake by demonising Mr. Delors. She should have crossed swords not with a civil servant, but with the Chancellor of Germany or the President of France, who were her opposite numbers. She made the mistake of building up the image of Mr. Delors.
  We need to strike a balance somewhere in between—we need more institutions than the old Commonwealth had, but certainly not a united states on American lines. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) said yesterday when he quoted Churchill, we are planting a tree—I would call it a forest—not putting together a bit of machinery. That tree will grow in its own mysterious way, and when we look back on it we shall be able to say that it is neither a federation nor a confederation, but something new, based on new constitutional forms, which have not yet been devised.
  We must remember that behind my right hon. and learned Friend's vision, which I share and hope to try to convey, there is a basic fear. The movement to European union came out of a fear of Germany. That country was down, but there was a fear that it might revive, and revive it has. There are now 80 million—if one includes Austria, not far short of 90 million—Germans. Under de Gaulle and his successors, the French thought that they were the jockey who controlled the German horse. But once the wall fell, all that changed, and we now have not a Paris-Bonn axis, but a Paris-Berlin axis. Is that feasible?

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  I remember sitting in the gallery of the French National Assembly in 1954. The French Parliament was then a Parliament, not what it is today, and the Assembly would not accept the plans for German rearmament unless Britain also participated in it. Mr. Herriott was a large man—I remember him well—and it was because of his speech, in which he said that the French would not enter the process unless the British also did so, that the British Government made their proposal for the Western European Union. This was the real foundation of Europe.
  The problem is to know how to cope with the greater Germany. There are two ways in which to do so. We took the first option in 1954, when we decided to bring Britain more fully into the European combination. The French would not agree to German rearmament without British participation, so we had to play our full part—if Britain, France and Germany came together with the other European countries, that would constitute an important beginning. Beyond that process, the enlargement of Europe is the key. I am not against deepening and strengthening the combination, but we must bring in northern and eastern Europe. This is our "new frontier". We must do everything to encourage eastern Europe into the Community; nothing must be done to exclude it. My impression is that the Government understand those points well, and on that basis I support the Government tonight.
  8.7 pm
  Dr. Dafydd Elis Thomas: It is a privilege to follow the right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery), and I am sure that we all appreciate his historical references: he speaks with the experience of having participated in the processes, particularly the second great European civil war, the starting point of the Community.
  Another fascinating aspect of this two-day debate is that there have been interesting divisions of opinion across the Floor of the House which are not reflected in the motions. We can see the different emphases placed on issues by the various parties and the problems faced by them in adjusting to the changes taking place in mainland Europe. Whether we use the metaphors of forests or pillars in the debate about ever closer union, the fact is that there is a moving together of the economic, environmental, social, cultural and political strands towards a greater convergence, and we must decide how we relate to that process.
  My passport is in my breast pocket near my heart. It is not there is case I have to leave the country urgently, but because it is smaller than the old British passport and fits there more conveniently. It is a pleasant, burgundy colour, and the first words in it are "European Community". I have no problem with a notion of being a European citizen. That phrase is repeated inside the passport in nine languages, one of which, Irish, I recognise as a Celtic language. It is closely related to one of the languages that I speak, Welsh.
  Beneath the words "European Community" the passport states:
  "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"
  —the name of the state of which I am a member. However, the name of the state does not coincide with the description
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  of my nationality. The machine-readable plastic on the back of the passport states "British citizen". The birthplace of this particular British citizen is given as Carmarthen, although the authority that issued the passport was the passport office in Liverpool.
  The complexity of location, identity and administration does not cause me a personal identity crisis. I feel an affiliation simultaneously with all those different centres of administration and levels of government—European, UKanian, British, Welsh and English regional. I have no difficulty with the idea of unity in diversity, which is what I believe the tower of Babel was about—without going into detail on the theological references of the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley).
  Like the hon. Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson), I have always viewed the political structure of the United Kingdom in a diverse way. The United Kingdom is a multilingual, multinational, multicultural, multi-ethnic state. With its diversity and variety of people, it has always been so. All the people of these islands, including people whose families moved here from the new Commonwealth countries, are citizens of Europe. This is not an island race and never has been.
  Europe has changed and will change through population movements and through cultural and social changes. This is a subject on which I can speak with authority, because the Celtic culture of which I and other hon. Members are living exhibits is being celebrated this year at a marvellous exhibition in the Palazzo Grassi in Venice which is entitled "The Celts, the Origins of Europe". The Celtic experience in these islands proves conclusively that languages, identities and cultures can and do survive within state structures in which they are not properly represented.
  I would have no fear for the future of the English identity, although some English Members seem to have such a fear, as we move towards greater European unity. Such a unity will be based not on the model of the United Kingdom as a unitary state, but on the model of European federalism. I agree with the points made earlier that the likely outcome of the debate on Europe about federalism and nation statism would fall somewhere between the two.
  I mention federalism because part of our difficulty in the debate is an understanding of the terms arising from different political traditions. The debate about European union is seen by probably a majority of British people—and certainly by a majority of British politicians—through our experiences of being inside a unitary state in which political power is seen to be located in one place. If we think, as so many hon. Members do, that political powers exist only in one place—that is, here—then when those powers are transferred or seen to be exercised elsewhere, it appears as a threat to sovereignty. In that sense, the British notion of sovereignty differs from that of our European partners because that definition of sovereignty arises from our parliamentary history and procedure.
  Arising from that understanding of sovereignty there is a misunderstanding of the definition of federalism. Those who live not in a federal system but in a unitary state cannot apparently understand the notion that political powers can be organised in other ways. For example, within the German federal model, which was imposed upon Germany by the United States and the other allies, there are clearly defined levels of powers and responsibilities. Each level of government is, as it were, sovereign in its

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  area of competence, and that brings us to that other concept with which the House seems to have difficulty, the concept of subsidiarity.
  As the hon. Members for East Lothian arid for Durham, North (Mr. Radice) said, because the United Kingdom is a unitary state, local government—or what is left of it—regional administrations and the national territorial offices, Scottish Office, Welsh Office and Northern Ireland Office, are all creations of the Westminster Parliament and can be abolished by it, as were the metropolitan councils and the Government and Parliament of Northern Ireland.
  Mr. Brian Sedgemore: And the GLC.
  Dr. Thomas: Yes, and the GLC.
  That could never happen in a federal system, because, on the mainland, federal system, the powers of local, regional and national authorities and the powers of state governments at all levels are guaranteed as constitutional rights. Subsidiarity is precisely about that. It is about not carrying out functions at multinational level which can be better carried out at member state level, and about not carrying out functions at that level that can better be carried out at national, regional, or local level.
  Subsidiarity is the essential principle of how federalism works, operating according to levels of power. Not surprisingly, as Jacques Delors has said, subsidiarity
  "comes from a moral requirement, a limit to interference from a higher authority vis a vis a person or a community".
  Of course the term has its roots in the social doctrine of the Catholic Church—the need to disperse human political power in a fallen world. I shall not take that theological debate any further.
  It is in those contexts that we need to understand the vocation federale as it appears in the Luxembourg draft. It is a process, an ideal, a desire. The fact that the United Kingdom, with its parliamentary system, has a different culture and tradition arising out of the particular history of the unitary system does not make our traditions morally better or more politically effective or efficient. The principle of parliamentary sovereignty has more often blocked than aided the possibility of popular sovereignty. It has made it difficult for politicians and parties to deal seriously with the relationship between citizens and the state and, in particular, the relationship between different parts of the state and its centre.
  I am not the only one who argues that the unitary state in the United Kingdom is the preservation into the 20th century of a constitutional order designed for the 17th century. Tom Nairn beautifully described it when he said:
  "the state is like the advanced passenger train, a 21st century vehicle intended to run on existing tracks."
  What has been said in the debate about parliamentary sovereignty only covers up what has really happened in terms of Government centralisation and corporate decision-taking elsewhere. Our political traditions themselves are now in crisis, and part of that crisis is reflected in the debate. I ask the House not to prevent us from resolving that crisis by refusing to contribute actively to the political culture of that Europe of which we are an integral part.
  8.15 pm
  Sir Michael Marshall: I shall not follow the line of the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas) because in a sense he has made one of the points that I would have made, which is simply that he reflects the United Kingdom and the fact that, as part of a union, we should understand some of the arguments in a wider sense than is sometimes suggested in the rather navel-contemplating activities which sometimes characterise our debates.
  As a confessed Euro-enthusiast, I came to the House to help secure entry to the Community, but I have my reservations and shall touch on them in a moment. There has been a sense of deja vu about much of the debate. Those in favour of membership of the Community are broadly still in favour and those who are against are still against. In that sense, we have not learnt anything new, I do not share the worries of my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) about the terms of the motion.
  As I look at the complexities of what will be considered at Maastricht, I am convinced that we are exceptionally fortunate to have in my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary representatives of our Parliament and country who will bring back an agreement that is acceptable to the House and the country. However, I should like to draw to the attention of the House and the Government one or two worrying matters. I shall deal first with the role of our Parliament and people and our industry, and then deal with the role of Europe and the wider world beyond.
  In terms of the role of our Parliament, I agree with those who feel that it is our responsibility to give leadership and not to fall back on referendums and seek in some way to arouse a great argument in the country which I do not think is there to be aroused. Despite my best endeavours, it is quite difficult in my constituency to attract people to a discussion on the issues before the House. There seems to be a general feeling, in some ways a slight sense of fatalism, that we are in and will not come out. In that sense, some moves are inevitable and we look to our leaders to achieve the best deal that they can—that is the general sentiment.
  In considering some of the difficulties, I should like to take into account the views of our business and industrial communities, because little attention has been paid to them in the debate. In the real world, business is years ahead of us in carrying through what the process of being a member of the Community implies. In terms of multinationalism in Europe, we should consider what is happening to large parts of British industry and the effect of flows of inward and outward capital.
  We speak in many old-fashioned ways about the British share of the market or about some kind of quota arrangement, but such matters are no longer relevant. I shall take two examples from within or near my constituency, the first of which is Matra Marconi. In its activities, whether in the defence market or the space market, it is difficult to define what is the British share. The shares depend on how the various constituent plants in that company carry out their contractual obligations, and the earnings from these share-outs are spread out across the company and reflected in investment patterns.
  In horticulture, which is important in my constituency, joint British and Dutch companies are a major feature.

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  The argument that we have had about the Dutch subsidies for heating and so on begin to drop away when we see the shared resources, shared opportunities and shared employment that can come from such joint ventures. My test of Maastricht is to ask how and in what way will the decisions being made assist the broad industrial development of Europe—naturally that includes Britain —while being realistic about what the multinational industries that we are developing mean to us all.
  The House will understand why I now move on to deal with a wider world. I am especially concerned that some of the aspects of the proposals for Maastricht will raise the hurdles and make it more difficult for countries in central and eastern Europe and the Baltic states, quite apart from the EFTA countries which have fewer problems, to accede to the EC. Therefore, I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary speaking about the pace of change. I still think that we have been driven at a faster pace than would have been sensible, and that we should have had an opportunity to bring in slightly wider membership before getting into this rather closed shop.
  In that regard, I strongly urge the political case for bringing some of the countries of central and eastern Europe into the Community very soon. I am sure that this view is shared throughout the House. The ending of the cold war must be replaced by an alliance wrapped round with hoops of steel. We want to ensure that those countries that are increasingly moving not only into multi-party, democratic ways of government but into a free market are brought without our system. We can then concentrate on the remaining problems.
  I believe that we shall see the accession of EFTA countries, bringing with them in their train, because of their special links, the Baltic states, and the pressures will accelerate. However, that process will be inhibited by some aspects of the Maastricht proposals, and that is why the detailed way in which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister outlined our position, rejecting and resisting some aspects of those proposals, was helpful.
  In that widening of the Community, we are being observed by the newly emerging democracies, not just in Europe but in Africa, Asia and Latin America. We have to find ways within the developments in the Community to assist in the process of democratic and economic development. We have to consider the imbalance of world trade, and we must come back to the GATT question. These are some of the background pieces of the argument that we tend to ignore as we narrow in on what is mainly a domestic debate.
  I should have liked to touch on many other aspects of the matter—the future role of the Commission, the European Parliament and, as I said in an intervention, the question whether we are suffering under the six-month rule of presidency moving around—that need to be debated once again. The structure by which we approach some of these questions is far from ideal. However, when we look at the world at large, I hope that we can reflect an outward-looking attitude for Europe, not only towards eastern and central Europe but to the many other questions that remain to be resolved. For example, one third of the world has the problem of too much food and two thirds of it is at or below survival level.
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  These broader questions must be considered if we are not to be too Eurocentric in our arguments. I have the greatest faith in my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary. I hope that, even at this late hour, the Opposition will realise, if they see themselves as serious contenders for government, that there is much to be said for all parties coming together. When we travel abroad, parliamentarians across party lines can be effective and punch our weight. Sometimes when we have internal arguments such as those of the past day or two, we lose some force and credibility. With that plea, difficult though it may be in an election year, I thank the House for listening to my speech.
  8.25 pm
  Sir Patrick Duffy: It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Arundel (Sir M. Marshall). However, I know that he will understand if I do not dwell on his remarks. I wish to recall the speech of the right hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson), in which he argued that the debate should have a financial approach and should not be guided by Foreign Office or security considerations. He reminded me of Thomas Hobbes's classical work "The Leviathan", in which it is argued that there is no instinct more profound than security in the conduct of human affairs. That is where my concern lies.
  I hope that the House will bear with me if I explain my long-standing attachment to Europe. I am one of the few remaining Labour Members of Parliament who defied the party whip on 28 October 1971. However, unlike my hon. Friends who incurred a censure motion or just a rebuke, on a Wednesday night during the following month of November, I had to travel up to Sheffield to face a sacking motion. After a crowded meeting that lasted for more than four hours, I survived by only five votes. That long debate, which had gone on all summer and into the autumn and had been conducted, as some hon. Members will know, in the constituencies as well as here, bit into my soul. I could have regarded the referendum option then as a convenient bolthole, but I did not. I have never doubted that the role of a Member of Parliament worth his salt is to stand his ground, defend his corner and stand by what he believes.
  Despite the long-standing attachment to Europe, I now see that a Europe that co-operates whenever possible and agrees to disagree when no common ground can be found is more desirable. I have backed off a federal preference. Because of my experience, I see that we cannot stand on the sidelines while others frame new structures, whether they are economic, political, social or, given my special interest, defence. On the other hand, the difference within Europe on that emerging architecture remain so profound that I can see no alternative to the intergovernmental treaty approach and its implied perception or a European "temple with columns" as against Mr. Delors' "tree with branches".
  This preference is confirmed by a brief examination of the prospect for a European community defence policy. We are all aware that the nature of the threat to the security of Europe has changed dramatically. There is a recognition, in the face of potential instability to the east and to the south, of the need for the western alliance to remain strong. It would be dangerous to undercut NATO's sole responsibility for the defence of NATO territory. We need to renew, not replace, the security guarantee that NATO has given us for the past 42 years.

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  We should also ask ourselves whether we will be prepared to foot the bill for going it alone without the Americans, as if Europe could do so without America's satellite and intelligence network or its transport facilities. I was surprised when the right hon. Members for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) and for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath) said that there could be an independent European pillar within the alliance, perhaps within the foreseeable future.
  NATO is an alliance which has stood the test of time and also won the confidence of former members of the Warsaw pact. Only a month ago a Soviet figure as senior as Mr. Yuri Deryabin, the Soviet deputy Foreign Minister, was endorsing NATO as the security organisation for all of Europe and seeking formal ties. Yet a clear division has emerged in recent weeks between leading members of the alliance on how a revitalised and reinforced the Western European Union should link NATO and the political arm of the EC.
  Most member countries would like to have it both ways —to conserve NATO and its strong links with our north American allies and, at the same time, like the right hon. Members for Old Bexley and Sidcup and for Yeovil—I understand why—they want to give Europe a more pronounced role in its own defence. But the two objectives are not easily reconcilable in practice, as the sharp exchanges over the merits of two rival plans, one British-Italian and the other French-German, have demonstrated.
  Britain and Italy want the WEU to be used solely for operations outside the NATO area, thus complementing the alliance and avoiding duplication, while France and Germany have envisaged a corps which might operate both inside and outside—although how that will be done remains unclear.
  However, the Rome summit was useful, as the Prime Minister told the House yesterday, in laying down the parameters within which it is feasible for the Europeans to work out their defence co-operation and avoid this particular dilemma. Whether the problem has really been disposed of was the subject of my intervention yesterday in the Prime Minister's speech and today in the Foreign Secretary's speech. Let me explain why.
  The Prime Minister played a prominent and commendable part in Rome in devising an agreed framework for a stronger European defence identity within the alliance. He secured agreement among NATO leaders, including Mr. Mitterrand, that NATO had a continuing role to play as the main decision making forum on defence matters in Europe.
  But might the isolation of Mr. Mitterrand on this question bode ill for Maastricht when the issue of a common European defence policy will be back on the agenda? The 11: 1 vote in Rome against Mr. Mitterrand on this question is not yet reflected in NATO parliamentary circles, as the hon. Member for Wealden (Sir G. Johnson Smith) who leads the United Kingdom delegation to the North Atlantic Assembly knows.
  Hon. Members from both sides of the House were unable to secure agreement in London a year ago on out-of-area activities—the intended role of the new-look WEU. Nor did they succeed in disposing of the Franco-German proposal at their Madrid meeting before the Rome summit.
  Furthermore, Mr. Mitterrand refused formally to acknowledge the primacy of NATO at that summit. Why
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  Not? Neither could he agree to a separate NATO declaration on the Soviet Union and the danger of nuclear proliferation. Why not? At whom was President Bush's admonition directed?
  Will it be enough for the Prime Minister at Maastricht, as he implied yesterday, to wave the NATO summit document in Mr. Mitterrand's face if the French leader makes any further move to separate Europe's defence responsibilities from NATO? Clearly, there may be scope and need for further bilaterals before Maastricht.
  Thus, whatever pillars may be involved eventually in the construction of the European temple, it is obvious that a defence pillar that is exclusively European cannot be seen as practical and workable. Nor is it considered desirable in eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. Nor is there support anywhere in Europe for a policy which might cut across NATO or duplicate its military structure.
  The security structures that we choose must be properly thought through and practicable. They must avoid duplication and must in all forms be complementary to NATO. That approach is not possible in a federal context. It can only be realistically pursued on the basis of intergovernmental treaties.
  8.34 pm
  Sir Norman Fowler: The House listened to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Sir P. Duffy) with interest and with some admiration, knowing his record on the European issue.
  I have listened for almost 13 hours to virtually all the speeches that have been made during the past two days, and they have brought back two memories. First, they have brought back memories of my time as a Minister negotiating in Brussels. The highlight occurred while I was at the Department of Transport. In those days, responsibilities were divided between the Department of Transport and the Department of Trade, which looked after air transport. Thus, when I went to Brussels I went with the then Secretary of State for Trade, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit). Lunch was organised during a break in negotiations and to facilitate discussions a translator was put between myself and my right hon. Friend. This evening, I needed no translator to understand his message.
  The second memory was as a Back Bencher in 1971, when I took part in the debate on entry into the EC and voted for entry. We in the 1970 intake took great interest in the views of others elected in that year. It is a simple statement of fact that two of the most vociferous, persistent and eloquent opponents of the EC then are now the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Foreign Secretary. So we are not entirely prepared to take lectures from the Opposition Front Bench on Europeanism. We hear what they say, but we also remember their opposition to Community entry in the 1970s, their fight to withdraw from the Community in the 1980s and their extraordinary position of subservience today.
  Labour's European travels have been one of the greatest political mystery tours of the post-war years. No one knows where the journey is likely to take them next, but one thing that has been made clear by this debate is that no one in his right mind would believe that our negotiations in Europe should be left to the Leader of the Opposition.

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  I speak as someone who voted for our entry into the Community, who supported and supports the establishment of a free and single market and who, like my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, believes that the Community can help to secure a lasting peace across the continent.
  At the same time, it would be foolish to believe that the British public are not concerned about some of the developments inside the Community. They are concerned about what they see as an unnecessary interference in our national life. They are concerned about lawless acts being taken to prevent legitimate trade. They are concerned about the Commission for ever seeking to extend its operations. That is not an argument for leaving the Community, but it is an argument for the British public being represented by a tough Government who, while committed to the Community, are prepared and able to fight for the kind of Europe that we want, a Europe where the maximum is left to the nation state.
  That is why the Government are right to set out their opposition to a federal Europe. I certainly do not want a united states of Europe, and I suspect that few Conservative Members would. That is why my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was so right to say that much can be achieved by pure co-operation in, for example, police work, and why he was also right to set out his opposition to an extension of Community competence in areas such as social policy.
  Let it be clear what I say about social policy. For example, I believe that employee involvement is one of the great challenges which stand before British industry. I sit on the board of a major company which has a worker director. I do not believe that that is the work of the devil, but such decisions are best decided at national level. We are saying not that employee involvement is in some way wrong, but that such decision making should be at the national, local or company level and voluntary. If a party wishes, for example, to have a minimum wages policy, let it set that out, as I suspect the Opposition will do, in its manifesto and argue it in an election. But it is completely unnecessary to have a Community policy on such things.
  Much of our debate has concerned economic and monetary union, and, in particular, the single currency. What we must decide tonight is not whether to accept a single currency here and now, but whether we should reject it here and now, without further discussion or consideration and without allowing the arguments to develop.
  I confess that, over the past few months, I have not stumped the country advocating a single European currency in every constituency, but it strikes me as absurd to walk away at this stage, for several reasons. First, the Government are set to secure an agreement that will allow us to keep our options open in regard to whether we want such a currency and, at the same time, to influence the eventual outcome. That is a substantial negotiating success, on which the Government should be congratulated.
  Secondly, industry would think us mad if we simply walked away. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel (Sir M. Marshall). One of the advantages that we recycled Cabinet Ministers have is an involvement in industry; of course, some of the unreconstructed Cabinet
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  Ministers have that as well. It is obvious to us that industry now considers Europe to be crucially important: Europe is the home market. We should at least listen when organisations such as the CBI set out the transaction costs of hedging, and all the other costs, and advocate movement towards a single currency. We need not accept the argument in its entirety, but it is certainly an argument against rejection at this stage.
  Thirdly, if we walked away now, we should have to accept the probability that the other Community members would form their own agreement. Such an agreement might be outside the terms of the Rome treaty, but it could nevertheless be very effective. That, by definition, would mean that we would play no part whatever in the developments. The Government, surely, are entirely right: by keeping our options open, they preserve our national interests, allowing us to weigh the alternatives when the time comes.
  Some now argue for a referendum—and it is fair to add that some proponents of that view do not seek to give voice to a long-held belief in the extension of democratic rights which they have already presented to the country consistently, month by month and year by year; their real purpose is to find a way of killing anything that comes from Maastricht. If that cannot be done in one way, it must be done in another. There was no referendum on the Single European Act, and I personally remember no clamour for such a referendum around the Cabinet table at which I then sat.
  I can say with absolute certainty that, over the ensuing months, it will be Parliament which decides. The crucial issue was identified by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman), who rightly said that what the public must decide was which party best represented their interests. Is it the Labour party, which, over most of the past 20 years, has traditionally expressed antagonism to the Community, and which has now attained the uncritical zeal of the convert? Or is it the Conservative party, which took the country into the Community, helped to create the single market and makes it clear today that it will continue to fight for our national interests?
  No one needs a crystal ball to know the outcome. A few days ago, an opinion poll carried out by ICM showed that, by a margin of two to one, the public preferred negotiations to be conducted by my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, rather than by the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Foreign Secretary.
  I am convinced of one thing: that margin deserves to be increased still further following this debate. I think that the public will believe that my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary are exactly the right people to represent our interests in Brussels.
  8.44 pm
  Mr. Brian Sedgemore: Right on cue, a convert rises.
  Undoubtedly, the people in this country who are the most excited about Maastricht are the young. Well they might be, because they have most to gain from the creation of a single European currency and political union. I outlined my views on both those subjects on 15 June 1990 in a 40-minute speech. I shall not attempt to repeat what I said then, for repetition makes bores of us all in the

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  House; I am glad, however, that the scepticism that greeted what I had to say about the benefits of a single European currency has since been replaced by understanding and support in several quarters. The translucent message from the corridors of power, in Europe and in Whitehall, is that a single currency will be established, and that we shall be part of it. The point of no return has been passed.
  I consider the idea that the issue should be decided by a referendum nothing short of bizarre. In the run-up to such a referendum, do the Government really intend to put through the letterboxes of Britain 17 million textbooks entitled "Fixed Exchange Rates and the Economic Consequences of EMU, by John Major"? Judging by the speech that the Prime Minister made yesterday, he is as capable of writing seriously about such matters as was Don Giovanni of writing a book entitled "Everything You Wanted To Know About Celibacy ".
  Speaking more generally, I suppose that I could sum up the Prime Minister's speech—without rancour—as timid, devoid of national purpose and lacking in inspiration. As he spoke, I asked myself whether the next 100 years of British history were to reflect the barren nature of his personality: the answer must be never, never, never.
  In my view, the creation of a single currency will be a major determinant of the course of British history during the next 100 years. I do not think that we should either underestimate or understate the magnitude of its consequences. I believe that monetary union is political union, and that the creation of a single currency is federalism. Indeed, the creation of a single currency is federalism without democracy.
  That is why the treaty on political union at Maastricht cannot be seen as some troublesome adjunct to the treaty on monetary union. The treaty on political union must begin to supply the democratic foundations of a devolved democratic federal system of government, without which monetary union will never survive. The one is inconceivable and unworkable without the other.
  Recently, an ambassador told me that issues such as defence and foreign policy were surely on a different plane from economic issues, involving as they did considerations of history, culture and identity. That is a plausible thesis; certainly, foreign policy and defence complicate the issue of political union and the directon of federalism.
  Let us consider this, however. One does not need to be an economic genius to understand that, when a country goes to war, the value of its currency is threatened, often decimated. Does any hon. Member seriously think that, after Britain has signed up for a single currency, we could go to war on our own and expect the 11 countries who share the same currency to stand idly by and see the value of their currency wrecked, for ever depreciating. just because Britain was in one of its periodic warmongering fits? Of course not. With a single currency in place., that could no more happen than the Government of the United Kingdom could today allow Wales or Scotland to go off and fight a war of its own. With a single currency, a common defence and foreign policy becomes inevitable and inexorable.
  One of our tasks in the House is to explain that honestly to the public. I am, of course, conscious that, as a convert to some important aspects of European integration, I risk being impeached for a lack of consistency; however, I am always happy to recall the words of Ralph Emerson, who said:
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  "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statemen and philosophers and divines."
  That brings me naturally to the scribblings of the right hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit). He provides the intellectual thrust and gravitas of the arguments of those who oppose monetary and political union. He set out his views in May 1990 in that weighty political magazine—I have a copy—The Field. His article is illustrated with huge colour photographs of the white cliffs of Dover in case the alligazoos who read it were tempted to miss the point.
  The right hon. Member for Chingford said that he cannot go along with the negotiations at Maastricht because he wants to protect Britain from "rabid dogs and dictators"—some might say from himself. He said:
  "Sterling looks set to be masticated by EM Us, ERMs and ECUs before being made fodder for that monetary successor to the Panzer, the Deutsches Bundesbank."
  Have you noticed, Mr. Speaker, how the right hon. Gentleman is moderating language and style in his old age? There is no mention of U-boats or the Luftwaffe.
  In his ignorance, the right hon. Member for Chingford I have given him notice of this—sees British history as a continuum stretching back to the dawn of time. He is quite unable to understand that the political settlement of 1688 had little in common with what went before, that the post-1832 settlement had little in common with the 1688 settlement and that the political situation today has virtually nothing in common with the post-1832 settlement.
  What I cannot understand is that the right hon. Member for Chingford and the Bruges group seem to support the existing system of government in Europe, which I would describe as a huddle of 13 bureaucracies in Brussels. Why do those people not want to bring democracy to a European Government that is currently bureaucratic, elitist, oligarchic and secretive? Perhaps it is because that is precisely the type of Government that the Conservatives developed in Britain in the 1980s.
  I believe that political union in Maastricht must put an end to that sort of Government by creating a strong European Parliament at the head of accountable, devolved, democratic federal structures.
  There is the question of sovereignty. In an article in The Guardian on 12 November 1991 the right hon. Member for Chingford said—it is a widely held view by those who did not read history at school—
  "Sovereignty cannot be shared or pooled. It is either here in our hands, or elsewhere in those of other institutions."
  It is possible that, in a period described by historians as the dark ages, sovereignty was indissoluble and indivisible. However, since then we have seen the rise of mercantilism in Tudor times, the rise of capitalism in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, and the rise of socialism. Under each of those ideologies, sovereignty has always, to a greater or lesser extent, been pooled between nation states. In short, perhaps for a period of 700 years in British political history, sovereignty has not been to be indissoluble and indivisible.
  There is a nasty side to the opposition to the treaty on political union expressed by a species known as Essex men and Essex politicians. They tend to be vulgar, philistine, xenophobic and nationalist. Surely, because we cannot afford those ideas to infest Europe, we need political union and a federal Government as a bulwark for freedom and civilised living.
  There is a litmus test for voting tonight. If the right hon. Member for Chingford can support the Government

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  motion, we will know that their motion is fatally flawed. If he rejects it, perhaps it has some merit. The real merit lies in the amendment to the motion in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Mr. Kinnock), and I shall be supporting that.
  8.54 pm
  Mr. Michael Spicer: The hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Mr. Sedgemore) has all the enthusiasm of a convert, and, if he does not mind, I will not follow his line.
  For the past four hours, I have been pondering the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Surrey, North-West (Mr. Grylls): why we are discussing political union in Europe when we have not achieved an internal market. It is a good question. Part of the answer must lie in the fact that many of the other countries in Europe do not want an internal market.
  When I was a Minister responsible for aviation or in the Departments of Energy and the Environment, I frequently went to the Council of Ministers. Invariably, I found an agenda before me on which the first item was often a British motion to extend the internal market and create freedom—whether it be for air fares, investment in other airlines, flying wherever one wanted in Europe or a free flow of energy around Europe. Invariably, that first item was voted down. That occurred because of national interest.
  In the case of aviation, it was because the Germans were concerned about their airline. I can recollect an occasion on which the then Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewksbury (Mr. Ridley) was present. He was so impressed by the protectionism of the German Minister for Aviation that he called him "Herr Lufthansa". The same was true of energy. The Germans were concerned about the ravages that might occur in their country because of cheap French nuclear-based electricity.
  The second item, which was often proposed by the French and Germans, was for greater standardisation in Europe. In the case of aviation, it called for Europewide air security or air safety regime and in the case of energy, it called for common standards of energy conservation. The other members of the Council usually voted in favour of that item.
  The third item was the press release discussion, when it was decided that the British position was anticommunautaire and that the French and German position was communautaire.
  The fourth item was the bribe which was handed out to the Portuguese, Greeks and others who had disagreed with the first item but voted in favour of the second and third items. So my hon. Friend the Member for Surrey, North-West has his answer. We are discussing this rush towards political union largely because other countries do not agree with the internal market and many of the measures associated with it.
  I accept that this is a Christmas stocking motion, with presents for everybody. The present that I happily unwrap for myself is the commitment against federalism. I voted in favour of our entry of the EC, and I voted for the Single European Act. I did so on both occasions because I believed that it would be in Britain's interests to be a member of a free trading, confident and outward-looking
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  association of European nations. I did so because I believed, as did other hon. Members, that co-operation between the nations of Europe was better than what had gone before. However, at all times I voted for a common market, not for a common country.
  It has been said that the Single European Act was the watershed at which point essential political sovereignty was surrendered. That is not true. The Single European Act was about trade, association and co-operation. The draft Dutch treaty on economic and monetary union is about co-ordination, unity and single government.
  I agree that central—not peripheral—to the debate about federalism is the issue of a single currency. The relationship between monetary and economic union and political union is recognised by the draft Dutch treaty on monetary union. That treaty rejoices in the relationship. The point is recognised by the German Government, and it was recognised by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister when, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, he gave evidence to the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee.
  If there is a single currency, there is political union. The one is part of the other. The reason for that has been made clear on several occasions during our debate. In order to operate a single currency, there must by definition be single monetary, interest rate, budgetary, fiscal and taxation policies. In other words, there must be a single economic authority which in turn must provide the basis for single government. Unless that federal state is to be a tyranny, there must be a single sovereign Parliament with a final say over the raising of taxes.
  I am against all that and, I hope, so are the Government. What is more, opinion polls now agree that the majority of the British people are on our side. That is why I will support the Government tonight. The Government are right to negotiate to protect NATO, to constrain the role of the Commission and to insist that other states obey the rules of the internal market as we do. They are right to press forward the development of an outward-looking free trading association of independent states. That is a noble concept. It would give European countries collectively and separately a positive influence on the rest of the world. That is the opposite of a protectionist, introverted, centralised federal state of Europe which is now being proposed by the Opposition and their socialist allies around Europe.
  That is ironic, but not surprising. At any rate, the Labour party has barred itself from asking basic questions which one would have thought was the role of a normal Opposition. Perhaps I should ask some of those questions. What is this rush to political union all about? What is in it for us? To what end is it now proposed that we risk the sacrifice of the power of our people, through Parliament, to rule themselves? Are we really sure that a non-electable, non-accountable central bank on the German model is, in the long term, preferable to economic management by elected politicians? Do we seriously believe that the French, Germans and Italians have a secret formula for political stability and sound democracy which we fail to emulate at our peril?
  A single currency would be the binding element of a federal state of Europe. I will support the Government tonight. I wish them well in their defence of British interests at Maastricht. However, that will not be the final say. That will come when we know what has been achieved at Maastricht. It will come if and when Parliament is asked

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  to ratify what has been done. I state this clearly to avoid misunderstanding: on the issue of a single currency, there can be no compromise. If Parliament was asked to ratify a treaty which I believed made British accession to a single currency inevitable, I would not vote for it, and many of my colleagues would feel the same. The British public overwhelmingly support such a position.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I call Mr. John Smith.
  9.3 pm
  Mr. John Smith rose—
  Sir Russell Johnston: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it not normal procedure to allow a representative of the Liberal Democrats to contribute during a day's debate?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman recognises the difficulties facing Mr. Speaker and the Chair.
  Mr. Smith: Over the two days of this important debate, hon. Members have explored almost every nook and cranny, to use a contemporary expression, of the implications for this country and for Europe of the treaty amendments which may emerge from the European Council meeting at Maastricht, itself the culmination of two intergovernmental conferences which have been proceeding throughout the year. There have been echoes of previous debates—the long, sometimes weary saga of the consideration of Britain's place and role in Europe.
  It is worth remembering that it is 20 years since the House took the decision to join the European Community. A very great deal has changed since then, although that has perhaps not always been recognised by the regular participants in our national sovereignty debate. We have today and yesterday been back over the referendum ground. Yesterday, the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) aced the Prime Minister with her demand for a referendum. She was not dissuaded by the fact that the Prime Minister had apparently firmly rejected a referendum in a reply to an intervention by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn). Later, the Prime Minister appeared, to use one of the right hon. Lady's phrases about the Foreign Secretary, to "go a bit wobbly".
  Late last night, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who wound up for the Government, repeated the wobble by saying that we could not now decide whether there would be a possible referendum in 1996. I gather today that prime ministerial sources are trying to roll back to the position that the Prime Minister had before the right hon. Lady sprang her initiative upon him. That is hardly an example of clear, firm government. In its own way, it is a very revealing insight into the influences upon this Administration.
  Hon. Members have, as is quite proper and according to their point of view, sought to draw lessons from the history of our relations with the other states of Europe. For my own part, I believe that, in the 1950s, successive British Governments made an incorrect assessment of the strength of the movement to found the European Community. It was believed, first of all, that it would not happen and that, if it did, it would not amount to very much. However, with the perspective of history, we can
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  now see how wrong such a judgment was. One might also note a similar error in judging the potential success of the establishment of the European monetary system in the late 1970s.
  I seek to draw the conclusion from those experiences that in this country we have a tendency to underrate the forces behind European integration. We should have learnt that one of the penalties of standing back is lack of influence on the design and development of European institutions which eventually we feel obliged to join. Far from diminishing, the forces behind what we might call ever-closer union are increasing. Within the existing Community we are seeing the establishment of the single market after 1992.
  I have little doubt that two of the major reasons why economic and monetary union is more likely to become a reality this time round is that a single market is being established and that nearly all the member states of the European Community are now members of the exchange rate mechanism. Having regard to some of the right hon. Lady's observations yesterday, some might consider it ironic that she was the Prime Minister when the crucial decisions in both those matters were made.
  There are other factors of great importance to the debate. Capital movements have been almost entirely liberated over the whole OECD area, creating an entirely new situation from that in which Governments operated exchange controls and restraints on capital movement. In trade and in finance, we live in an increasingly interdependent world, and most certainly in a much more integrated Europe. In those circumstances, it seems to be essential that we are prepared to recognise the limits of theoretical national economic sovereignty which the real world that we live in imposes.
  Mr. Bob Dunn: If the right hon. and learned Gentleman were going to Maastricht in a few days' time as a member of a Labour Government, would he give an irrevocable commitment to moving Britain towards a single currency? Will he answer, yes or no?
  Mr. Smith: I will deal precisely with that point, but I ask the hon. Gentleman to allow me to develop one or two other aspects as a necessary background to my later comments on the issue that he raises. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is the custom to allow the contributors to a debate to make speeches in their own way. I have given an undertaking to answer the question of the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Dunn) very directly. If that suits him, it should suit other right hon. and hon. Members
  Before I was diverted, I was making the point that there are limits to theoretical economic national sovereignty, which are imposed by the realities of the world in which we live. What is more, we ought to be prepared to help to create a system that restores, at least in part, the influence that Governments should be able to have over economic and monetary policy. That is why Labour favours progress towards economic and monetary union—provided that the United Kingdom economy is made strong enough to gain rather than to lose from that experience, and that there is an adequate framework of accountability.
  Mr. Patrick Nicholls rose—
  Mr. Smith: I hope that point is clear to the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Nicholls: I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, because he makes a very helpful point. However, I remind him that, on the "Today" programme this morning, he said that he agreed with the proposition that there is no need to make an immediate move towards a single currency. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that he seems during the last few hours to have come over to the Government's position—which is that there is no need to make an immediate move to a single currency? It appears so, from his remarks on the radio this morning—or does he distance himself from them now?
  Mr. Smith: The hon. Gentleman should familiarise himself with the discussions at the intergovernmental conferences.
  Mr. Nicholls: The hon. and learned Gentleman should cut the abuse, and try to answer my question.
  Mr. Smith: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will do me the courtesy of listening to the answer that he invited me to give, without shouting at me from a sedentary position in a most boring and discourteous manner.
  No one in the whole Community is proposing an immediate move towards a single currency. The draft treaty provides that in 1996, or by the end of 1996 at the latest, the Commission will prepare a report to the Council of Economic and Finance Ministers, and thereafter to the European Council. The final decision that is postponed.
  Mr. Marlow rose—
  Mr. Smith: I have already given way a number of times. The final decision—this is the assumption on which those engaged in the debate are operating—will be made in 1996 or 1998—perhaps later, for all I know.
  Mr. Lawson: What the right hon. and learned Gentleman just said is absolutely right, but alongside the treaty on economic and monetary union, there is a declaration, which must be decided now. Is it Labour's position that the declaration should be signed, or that it should not be signed?
  Mr. Smith: I am not clear whether there is a declaration currently in the discussions. That rather depends on what provision is made for the so-called opt out, as to whether it is general or particular. The declaration that I saw made mention of a fast transition towards a single currency, which is not terribly consistent with the notion of real economic convergence. A single currency—it is surprising that the Prime Minister and other Government Members made little reference to this—would offer Britain some advantages, and I will describe what they could be.
  We could achieve a low rate of inflation, low interest rates, and a strong and stable currency—but only if we took steps to achieve real economic convergence, which would mean adopting economic policies that stimulated investment, promoted innovation and new technology, strengthened our regions, and built a world-class work force through a relentless commitment to education and training of the kind for which Labour constantly argues. Those policies are vital for our economic success in the 1990s whatever decisions are taken on economic and monetary union. It is absolutely clear that a country with a strong economy has little to fear from a single currency.
  In addition to the vital requirement of real economic convergence, it is equally important to secure a proper
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  framework of accountability for economic and monetary union if it occurs. We have heard nothing from the Government about their participation in the discussions in the economic intergovernmental conference about the accountability of the proposed European central bank and the allocation of responsibilities for economic and monetary policy between the Economic and Finance Ministers and the proposed central bank.
  The Labour party has argued consistently for the bank to operate in a stronger framework of political accountability than the present draft treaty proposes. Like the French Government, we believe that ECOFIN—the Council of Economic and Finance Ministers—should play a crucial role in determining overall economic and monetary policy. We believe that it is important, for example, that the setting of the external exchange rate for a single currency should be a matter for ECOFIN.
  On those and other matters, we simply do not know what the British Government have argued for or against, because Ministers have not reported back to the House on those issues. It would be appropriate tonight for the Chancellor to set out clearly the Government's position on the framework of accountability, which is one of the main areas of discussion at the intergovernmental conference. To my knowledge, we have not yet heard from Ministers about how the central bank should be controlled or about the role of the Finance Ministers in the proposed new system. Instead, when they last reported to the House in our debates on economic and monetary union in January, the Government told us that the main thrust of their policy was to advance the cause of the hard ecu.
  Let us remind the House briefly of the history of the Government's approach to such matters. The Government's early response to the Delors report was totally dismissive. However, once it became clear that there was real impetus behind the initiative, the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Finchley, announced at the Madrid summit in 1989 that there would be a British alternative to the Delors plan. The then Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson), was not present at the Madrid summit, which might help to explain why the Treasury was taken totally by surprise by the Prime Minister's initiative.
  On 18 September 1989, writing in the Financial Times, that distinguished commentator, Mr. Samuel Brittan, observed:
  "One very senior British official first heard of Mrs. Thatcher's promise, after the Madrid summit, to table alternative ways of achieving monetary union to that of the Delors Committee on his car radio."
  Mr. Brittan then said that the official, whom I am reliably informed is now permanent secretary to the Treasury,
  "was so astonished that he nearly drove his car into a tree."
  That was the genesis of the plan for competing currencies. It did not have a long life. It is, as I recall it, the so-called "market solution", in which currencies would engage in a Darwinian-type struggle for survival. Our Community partners soon put the hems on that one. There was no seconder to the motion.
  In the following year, the Government tried again. The then Chancellor, the present Prime Minister, launched the so-called "hard ecu plan". It was first revealed at a lunch meeting when he spoke to the German industry forum on 20 June 1990. The idea was that a 12th currency, a

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  common currency, would be established, which could never be devalued, and which might develop into a single currency—or so some thought.
  Whatever else could be said about the hard ecu—about its merits or demerits as an instrument of economic policy —it had its political uses for the Conservative party. It enabled the then Prime Minister to claim that it could not develop into a single currency. It enabled the then Chancellor, the present Prime Minister, to say that, if peoples and Governments so chose, it could develop into a single currency. It even enabled the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to argue before an astonished House of Lords Select Committee:
  "a single currency could actually happen more quickly going down this path."
  In the January debate, the Chancellor warmed to the theme of the hard ecu. It was his initiative to be taken in the intergovernmental conferences. In that same month, he published detailed proposals, which were available at about the time of the debate. They were called "Economic and Monetary Union: Beyond Stage One." In the months thereafter, the Chancellor told us that there was growing support in the Community for his plan. One country after another was said to be treating with increasing respect this deft and ingenious British plan. How strange it was, therefore, that yesterday the Prime Minister, the veritable architect of the hard ecu, no longer sang its praises. Indeed, nothing has been heard of it since May this year.
  Mr. Marlow: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Smith: Let me finish this point.
  In the Financial Times of 13 May, there was a headline: "Hard ecu plan to be reviewed". The story read:
  "Britain may back down in its hard ecu plan. … The proposal will be reviewed by senior UK officials in the next few weeks as a goodwill gesture to Britain's partners."
  That story was undoubtedly read with pleasure and relief in the capitals of the Community, but the Chancellor was not pleased at the briefing activities of his Treasury officials—his increasingly desperate Treasury officials. Speaking at a conference at the Grosvenor House hotel on 30 May, the Chancellor struck back. He said:
  "I am happy to rebut suggestions that we are abandoning the hard ecu. On the contrary, the ideas which led us to put forward our proposals are making some headway with our partners. … We are often condemned for maintaining our position in the face of widespread disagreement, but we are certainly not so perverse as to throw away a good idea just because our partners agree with us!"
  He put an exclamation mark after it.
  Mr. Marlow: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Smith: No.
  With regret I have to tell the House that that last reference by the Chancellor was, I fear, the last known sighting of the hard ecu.
  Mr. Marlow rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): Order.
  Mr. Smith: In recounting these events, I am reminded of the story of the hunting of the snark, in which that mythical animal was destroyed. Something similar happened to the hard ecu. So I must ask the Chancellor the
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  pertinent questions. Did it die? When did it die? Who killed it? Where is it buried? I hope that the Chancellor can give us a full report on the sad demise of the hard ecu.
  It is abundantly clear from the draft treaty that it contains no hard ecu, and no common or 12th currency proposal. There was not even an agreement to harden the existing basket ecu mechanism. For example, the proposal in article 109E of the draft is that the currency composition of the ecu basket will be frozen at the start of stage 2.
  The ineluctable conclusion to which one is driven is that the hard ecu was never more than a device to paper over the cracks in the Conservative party. It achieved precisely nothing for Britain's interests in the negotiations. That is a theme which sadly continued to be dominant in the Government's approach to these matters.
  In the absence of the crack-covering hard ecu, what do the Government propose by way of amendments, if any, to the current Dutch treaty text? Did they make any proposal on how the central bank should be governed? Are they content with what is proposed? Do they wish to strengthen the role of Economic and Finance Ministers, as I believe would be right? If so, what proposals do they intend to make in the remaining weeks of negotiation?
  We believe that ECOFIN should be responsible for setting the Community's overall economic policy. In order to do so, its secretariat needs to be strengthened greatly, with a permanent staff so that it is capable of carrying out the task of surveillance and economic co-ordination. It already has that role, but it could play a greater role in future.
  There is one matter on which I agree with what the Prime Minister said yesterday. That is the important question of budget deficits. He said that negotiations were still proceeding on that matter and that there had been no acceptance of a binding element in stages 2 or 3.
  As presently drafted, the treaty is far too rigid. The 3 per cent. figure in the protocol seems arbitrary and surely, at the very least, there must be some common definition of what a deficit is considered to be when member states have different Government accounting practices.
  Since I am agreeing, in principle, with the line that the Government took on that matter, I hope that the Chancellor can enlighten us further on what the Government propose.
  Sir Peter Blaker: Was the right hon. and learned Gentleman present with the Leader of the Opposition at the conference in Madrid in December last year when a policy of a binding minimum rate of taxation throughout the Community was agreed? That agreement clearly referred to direct taxation. Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman care to elaborate on that, because we have not heard much about it from the Labour party?
  Mr. Smith: I do not think any more mischievous allegation has been made during these discussions than what the chairman of the Conservative party wrote in the letter that I have here. He explicitly referred to capital taxation; that is absolutely clear from the context of the document.
  Since we are delving into such matters, I took the trouble to inquire about another aspect of our relationship with Europe today—the Conservative party's application to join the European People's party parliamentary group

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  as an allied member. I have here a letter from the chairman of the Conservative party to Mr. Wilfried Martens, the president of the European People's party. He says:
  "I would like to take this opportunity to state once again that this application"—
  that is the application by the Tories to be allowed to tie up with someone; they have never managed it in all the history of the European Parliament, but they are feeling a bit lonely—
  "enjoys my full support and that of the Prime Minister as Leader of the Conservative Party."
  I was intrigued by the fact that a letter sent on behalf of Conservative Members of the European Parliament says the following:
  "I should like to emphasize that my colleagues fully support, inter alia: The institutional development of the community into a European Union of a federal type".
  I think that the chairman of the Conservative party would be better employed sorting out a few of those matters before he comes back to the House. I apologise for raising such matters in detail, but it is the duty of the House to do so—[Interruption.] I shall no doubt be corrected and hon. Members can always intervene, but I have it here in writing, and it would be surprising if it were wrong.
  Mr. Harry Ewing: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not normal in parliamentary debate that, when a serious allegation is made against the Prime Minister, he at least gets up off his bottom and tries to respond to it? Can we not invite the Prime Minister to do so?
  Mr. Speaker: Order.
  Mr. Smith: I have mentioned our views on the development of economic and monetary union, but one matter that we have not touched upon sufficiently in the debate is the curious view that the Conservative party has on the social charter and the social action programme.
  In the remarkable speech by the right hon. Member for Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath) this afternoon, it was as unusual as it was refreshing to hear a Conservative voice talking of the need for equity and social justice within the European Community. The right hon. Gentleman recognised, as we do, that it is hardly consistent to argue for qualified majority voting to create the single market if one opposes it on the social action programme, which gives rights for employees. It is staggering that the Government will apparently take the negotiations at Maastricht to the brink of failure because of their obstinate, dogmatic insistence that they will have nothing to do with competence in the social field or with majority voting in that area.
  The Government could change their policy on that precise matter without great difficulty. If they are worried about whether it is the right thing to do, I remind them of an article that the Secretary of State for the Environment wrote in The Times on 29 November 1989, in which he said
  "We paid a heavy price when others designed the common agricultural policy. It would be unforgivable to repeat that mistake in industrial and financial policies. The same argument applies to the Social Charter".
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  That was well said by the Secretary of State for the Environment. I hope that he will speak to the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer and help them to come to a wiser view.
  In the course of this debate, we have understood that the real priorities for Europe in the years that lie ahead are for the Community to become wider, more cohesive and more democratic. Those are certainly the Labour party's objectives. We have aims and objectives—the same cannot be said of the Conservative party. In the same Lobby tonight will be those who want a referendum and those who do not, and those who want a single currency and those who do not. Most remarkable of all, walking through the same Lobby will be the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup and the right hon. Member for Finchley, thus demonstrating the organised hypocritical disunity that passes for a Conservative party.
  That is why it will be not only a duty but a pleasure to vote against the Government tonight.
  9.32 pm
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Norman Lamont): This has been an important and historic debate. It has been a remarkable occasion, with some memorable contributions. It is not every day when one former Prime Minister intervenes in the speech of another. We have heard some outstanding speeches on both sides of the House. On the Opposition Benches, the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) and the hon. Members for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) and for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Sir P. Duffey) made outstanding speeches. My right hon. Friends the Members for Blaby (Mr. Lawson), for Worthing (Mr. Higgins), for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit), for Guildford (Mr. Howell) and for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler) made powerful contributions.
  Obviously, it was right that the House should have an opportunity to express its views and vote on the broad negotiating stance which the Government will take. The motion allows the House to do that. If agreement is reached in Maastricht, the House will have a further opportunity to debate and vote on the detailed proposals in due course.
  Tonight, I wish to concentrate largely on monetary union and answer some of the questions raised by the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith). First, however, may I make some observations on political union? Foreign and security policy is an area in which the Twelve can and do work together. Europe is an increasingly integrated region, and the individual members of the Community are likely to have common interests and many common views, especially on regional questions such as eastern Europe, to which several hon. Members referred, and relationships with the Soviet Union. The Community has a legitimate interest in those issues. At the same time, the individual countries have different histories, worldwide connections and interests. It is essential that we continue to retain the freedom to act alone in our own national interests.
  It also goes without saying that foreign and defence policy—questions that can involve issues of peace and war —cannot be subject to mechanistic voting procedures, which would be a recipe for less rather than more agreement. That is why, in the negotiations, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has placed the emphasis on

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  co-operation between individual states for agreement outside the treaty mechanism and has said that agreement should be by consensus.
  Much of the debate in the past two days has been taken up with arguments about the position of this House. We are rightly jealous of the power of Parliament to make laws, to tax and to spend. Of course our institutions and practices must be subject to examination, but we are voting tonight not for ourselves but for those whom we represent. It is my conviction that the British people overwhelmingly wish to reserve those fundamental powers for this House in this country.
  Mr. Tony Benn: It has long been Government policy that there should be no change in the status of Northern Ireland without a referendum, and that even a merging of sovereignty between Belfast and Dublin could not be entrusted to this House alone. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House the difference between that and the issue raised by the demand for a referendum which my right hon. and hon. Friends fully supported when it was made in 1975?
  Mr. Lamont: The Prime Minister has made it clear that we do not think that, on the issue whether we should move to single currency—an issue that will not arise for six or seven years—it would be appropriate now to have a referendum. In addition, he made it clear that he did not feel it was appropriate even later for there to be a referendum on this issue.
  I was referring to the fact that profound constitutional and political questions are raised in the debate, though they have not been seriously addressed by the Opposition. The Prime Minister has made it clear that we are against the idea of a European Government or a European state, and for that reason the Foreign Secretary has taken a cautious approach to any extensions of Community competence or to proposals to increase the powers of the European Parliament. We reject wide-ranging increases in the legislative powers of the European Parliament.
  We are prepared to consider a right for the European Parliament to block legislation approved by the Council. But the scope of such a provision should be strictly limited, and certainly more limited than is the case in the current draft. This negative assent procedure would of course not mean that the European Parliament could initiate legislation, still less impose anything that did not command the requisite support in the Council of Ministers. We have also tabled proposals to increase the accountability of the Commission—asked for by Opposition Members—to the European Parliament, particularly in its management of the Community budget.
  A number of my hon. Friends have noted that the draft treaty contains some extensions of Community competence and the scope of majority voting in the Council. Obviously, I cannot go over many of them tonight, but, unlike the Opposition, we are profoundly sceptical about the need for major new extensions of Community competence. There is no need for extended Community competence in issues such as industrial relations and social security. If wide-ranging social policies were imposed throughout the Community, they would increase unemployment and have massive economic costs.
  I can understand that Opposition Members take a different view on some of these issues and policies, but, as the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) said
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  yesterday, that is not the real issue. The real question is why they want to take away the right of the British people to make the final decision on these matters.
  We believe that the political union IGC could deliver a constructive and useful package of reforms of the Community and its institutions, but the Community must not overreach itself. We cannot draw up grandiose, impractical blueprints for a structure that will not stand the weight it would be called on to bear. The consequences of over-ambition would be disastrous for the Community and for Britain, and we could not accept that.
  I come to the negotiations about economic and monetary union. While these have been conducted by Finance Ministers separately from those on political union, as my right hon. Friends the Members for Blaby and for Chingford said, nobody can he in any doubt that monetary union, if it happens. is a process with potentially profound political implications.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath) made the case for a single currency, which he said could be seen as a logical extension of the single market. He referred to the reduction in transaction costs and exchange rate risks that could increase trade and investment, and promote investment from outside into the Community. Above all, some see it as achieving price stability—not only a single currency zone, but a low-inflation zone. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) said, many in industry and the City fear the commercial consequences if Britain were to exclude itself from any future European currency union.
  For those reasons, we think that it would have been wrong to stand aside or walk away from the negotiations, but the important potential economic arguments must be balanced against the political consequences and the practicalities. One thing is certain: any attempt to create a single currency in Europe must be based on the prior convergence, not just of inflation and interest rates, but market flexibility throughout the economies of the member states. Without that, there would be enormous and permanent regional imbalances which would have disastrous consequences.
  Mr. Stuart Bell: The House will have noticed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has widened the issue of convergence from the definition given by the Foreign Secretary this afternoon. We now have a better idea about convergence than we did this afternoon. May we have an answer from the Chancellor to the question raised by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) about the hard ecu?
  Mr. Lamont: I shall answer that precise question now if the hon. Gentleman wants. He is wrong—the hard ecu was discussed recently. Incorporating many of the features of the hard ecu, using a common currency to promote convergence and having something similar to the monetary fund that we proposed earlier are all ideas which are still on the table. Other countries wish to see a hardening of the ecu in stage 2. The basic framework of our proposal still applies.
  There are few recent examples of countries coming together to form a currency union of independent sovereign states. For that reason, it would be something of a step into the unknown. However we expect the Community to develop, events will no doubt turn out

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  differently. As many of my hon. Friends have said, notably my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford, over the next few years the current Community could be enlarged into one of perhaps 15 or 20 countries. A single currency would have to be able to accommodate that change, as would the institutions of the Community.
  Mr. Marlow rose—
  Mr. Ted Rowlands rose—
  Mr. Lamont: Several hon. Members have asked questions that I want to answer, because it is important to get the answers on the record. I shall give way soon.
  For the reasons that I have given, I believe that my right hon. Friends the Members for Worcester (Mr. Walker), for Blaby, and for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) were right to pose the question: is it possible to have a monetary union without also having a political union? They are right to ask whether it is possible to reconcile a single currency with national Governments who keep control of economic policy and maintain the freedom to tax and spend. Those are important questions.
  They also raised the issue whether there should be constraints on Government's fiscal policies and freedoms, and if so how far they should go. It was due to the huge issues involved that we have made it clear that we cannot make the commitment to move to a single currency without a separate decision at the appropriate time taken by Government and Parliament. We cannot, and we shall not.
  Some of my hon. Friends asked whether the text as it presently stands genuinely enables us to avoid the commitment to move to a single currency. On the basis of all the advice available to me, I can give the House that assurance. My right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley referred to the European Court of Justice. The advice that I have had is quite clear. There can be no question of the United Kingdom being in breach of the treaty for refusing to move to a single currency.
  Some of my hon. Friends, especially my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash), suggested that articles 2 and 3a of the draft treaty implied a commitment to move to a single currency. It is true that economic and monetary union is part of the Community task set out in article 2, as it was in the preamble to the Single European Act. However, as article 3a makes clear, nothing in these articles overrides the provisions for a form of exemption status which would be without time limit.
  Of course we are not committed to one particular draft, and we will need to be absolutely satisfied that the final text is legally watertight. I assure the House that we shall reflect on the points that have been made in the debate and that the Government will settle for nothing less than a treaty that leaves us wholly free to decide whether or not to move to a single currency. "Wholly free" means free to make whatever choice we wish.
  Mr. Rowlands: Will the Government sign a treaty which includes an absurd protocol limiting the rate of public expenditure to 3 per cent. of deficit and a central bank whose undemocratic status would not allow any Government to influence its decisions?
  Mr. Lamont: I am coming to those precise points.
  Mr. Rowlands: Answer.
  Mr. Lamont: I intend to answer. One of the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friends delivered a lesson on manners, but obviously the hon. Gentleman did not hear it.
  Some hon. Members have said that, if we sign a treaty that provides for a single currency, then, even if we are not legally committed to move to a single currency, the pressures to adopt it will be there, and a single currency will become inevitable. I say to my hon. Friends who advanced that argument that it shows a lack of confidence in their case. If a single currency cannot work, or cannot be made to work without unacceptable infringement of sovereignty, it will deservedly be rejected by the House.
  Because we are not prepared to make a commitment to move to a single currency, monetary, fiscal and economic policy in general will remain firmly in national hands until and unless the decision is made to move to a single currency and to stage 3. This is an extremely important point. It has been my intention throughout to negotiate a treaty which, up to the point of decision, leaves the Government free to continue to run our own economic policy.
  For example, in stage 2, monetary policy will remain firmly in national hands. The new European Monetary Institute will have co-ordinating tasks in the same way as the present Committee of Central Bank Governors has. It will oversee the development of the ecu, and the EMI will carry out work in preparation for a possible future move to stage 3.
  The EMI will not be a European central bank. It will not take away the freedom of member states to conduct their own monetary policies. A European central bank will not be set up unless and until the Community decides to move to stage 3. Hon. Members may have noticed that, although a country must be a member of the ERM to move to stage 3, ERM membership is not a treaty obligation in stage 2. Monetary policy remains with member states unless and until they choose to participate in the single currency area. The same is true of fiscal policy.
  In stage 2 of the Economic and Finance Council would be able to examine a member state's economic or fiscal policies and to make recommendations, but ECOFIN is already empowered to do exactly that. Other organisations such as the IMF and OECD are already engaged in and entitled to do this. The proposed procedure in stage 2 will be more formalised but contains little new. Council action in stage 2 would take the form of recommendations, which are clearly stated in article 189 to have no binding force.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Worthing spoke about the general provision that member states
  "shall avoid excessive budget deficits"
  in stage 2, although he recognised that the draft treaty makes it clear that such an obligation would not be enforceable by infraction proceedings. The Government have pursued, and will continue to pursue, sound fiscal policies, and we think that other member states should do likewise. We are not prepared to accept any binding obligation in this area, and it is my firm objective to amend this provision so that it does not create any such obligation in stage two.
  Mr. Marlow: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Lamont: I will give way if my hon. Friend insists, but there are many important points to be made about the

  517
  negotiations, and we shall not have them on the record and the House will not know about them if I am not allowed enough time to set them out.
  In stage 3, matters would be very different. A European central bank would have been brought into existence, which would have sole responsibility for monetary policy in those member states that chose to move to a single currency. A number of right hon. and hon. Members—for example, my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford—have pointed out that the European central bank would operate independently of political control. However, it would be accountable for its actions to the Council of Economic Finance Ministers and the President of that Council would be able to attend meetings of the governing board.
  The Council would also have an important role in formulating exchange rate policy. The Governor of the Bank of England would he a member of the governing board of the European central bank and would continue to be appointed at a national level, but the European central bank in stage 3 would have to be free to set interest rates without interference. That is the view of every member state. In a Community of 12 countries, it simply would not be practical for 12 Finance Ministers to intervene in the monetary policy decisions of the central bank.
  The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) spoke about the binding rules. A number of my right hon. and hon. Friends have noted that the current draft of the treaty also provides for binding rules of fiscal deficits in stage 3. This has been the subject of considerable argument in the debate. There are those who have argued that, if monetary policy is set by the centre, fiscal policy must inevitably be centrally determined; otherwise, there is a risk of monetary financing or inflation. Also, there would be the risk of excessive budget deficits in one country, which would push up interest rates throughout the single currency area.
  In my view, the rigid central determination of fiscal policy is neither necessary nor desirable. Even if there were to be one European currency and one European monetary policy, it is our intention that there should still be 12 fiscal policies and 12 Finance Ministers. The Government believe that, even in stage 3, Community action to restrict deficits would be necessary only in the rare cases where it was clear that the deficit was grossly excessive—for example, if it threatened monetary stability throughout the Community.
  The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney spoke about the 3 per cent. of GDP trigger, a point raised also by the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney, my right hon. Friend the Member for Worthing and other hon. Members. The present proposals would entail Council examination of the policies of member states with deficits exceeding 3 per cent. of GDP, but such deficits would not be prohibited. The 3 per cent. criterion would trigger investigation and would lead to further action only if the Council, taking the relevant economic circumstances into account, so decided.
  I agree with what has been said on this subject: that the proposals in the treaty are too onerous. We shall be working to ensure that the procedure catches only deficits that are clearly excessive and unsustainable. We shall try to secure in the negotiations rules that ensure that limitations on deficits operate with the lightest possible touch.
  Mr. Marlow: We have in a few minutes an important vote coming up, and I am sure that hon. Members will want to get the matter right. Among the 32 lines of gobbledegook that pass for an Opposition amendment, the Government are urged
  "to achieve … a single currency as the essential foundation".
  Conservative or Labour Members who vote for the amendment will want to know whether this is committing the Opposition to a single currency, come what may, willy-nilly.
  Mr. Lamont: I am just as mystified by the Opposition's amendment as my hon. Friend. It will not surprise him to know that I am about to come to that precise point.
  The speeches made by the Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East were not up to the seriousness and the gravity of the issues that we have discussed tonight. Our approach to the negotiations has been constructive but cautious: cautious to ensure that British Governments retain the freedom to act in the national interest, but constructive in preparing Community arrangements which are practical and which, if they come into being, will work.
  That is the approach of a responsible Government, a Government who seek agreement with their partners but are prepared to say no if the nation's interests are under threat. It is an approach which is in the starkest possible contrast to the Opposition's attitude. There can be no more serious topic than that which we are discussing tonight, but the Opposition have in no way addressed themselves to the issues.
  The Leader of the Opposition spent the 1970s saying that membership of the Community was, to use his words, "an absolutely crazy mistake". He spent much of the 1980s demanding outright and immediate withdrawal, but now he proposes to spend the 1990s apparently willing to sign every piece of paper which floats across the English channel.
  Having once believed that the Community was entirely bad, the Leader of the Opposition now apparently believes that everything that emanates from Brussels, everything that is proposed there, is unquestionably good. He and his colleagues are prepared and ready to sign away the rights of this Parliament to decide our own social and employment laws. They propose regional policies which would, like so many of their ideas, cost the British taxpayer dear. They are ready to commit Britain to move to a single currency without any further deliberation or decision and without the slightest regard to the economic consequences.
  A year ago, the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East said that it would not be prudent to commit ourselves to a single currency, but on Tuesday he issued a brief statement saying that the Labour party has made it clear that in principle it favours progress towards a single currency. Yesterday, the House heard me ask the Leader of the Opposition whether at Maastricht he would be prepared to make an irrevocable commitment to move to a single currency. I asked him whether he would sign not just the treaty but the declaration to move to a single currency. Various of my hon. Friends, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Blaby, also asked the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East, but we have had no answer whatever.
  The Leader of the Opposition said that he would not be looking for an opt-out clause. That surely means that the Opposition are committed to move to a single currency.

  519
  That is what I would have thought. It is extraordinary that the right hon. Gentleman should say that he is not interested in that opt-out clause. It is there because we worked hard for it and we have negotiated for it. The right hon. Gentleman is saying that he does not want to take advantage of it. He is prepared to chuck away Britain's interests. Irrespective of having the opportunity, he would commit Britain to move to a single currency.
  The right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East said that the decision does not really arise until 1997, but the declaration which every other country is prepared to sign arises this year, at this moment. Would the Leader of the Opposition sign it? We have had no answer on that point.
  It is crystal clear that the Leader of the Opposition is prepared to commit Britain to move irrevocably to a single currency. That is the only conclusion that can be drawn after the speeches that we have heard in the past few days.
  The Government have been involved in long and complex negotiations. They have been fighting for vital British interests—the power of the House, the right of Government to take their own taxation and spending decisions, the right of Government to run their own immigration policy. Those on the Opposition Front Bench are prepared to throw that away. The Opposition have allowed themselves to become federalists in all but name. We reject their approach, and I urge my right hon. and hon. Friends to support the Government's policy in the Lobby.
  Question put, That the amendment be made: —
  The House divided: Ayes 200, Noes 391.

  Division No.14]

  [10.00

  AYES

  Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley, N.)

  Corbett, Robin

  Allen, Graham

  Cousins, Jim

  Anderson, Donald

  Cox, Tom

  Archer, Rt Hon Peter

  Crowther, Stan

  Armstrong, Hilary

  Cummings, John

  Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

  Cunliffe, Lawrence

  Ashton, Joe

  Cunningham, Dr John

  Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

  Dalyell, Tam

  Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

  Darling, Alistair

  Barron, Kevin

  Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

  Battle, John

  Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

  Beckett, Margaret

  Dewar, Donald

  Bell, Stuart

  Dixon, Don

  Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

  Dobson, Frank

  Benton, Joseph

  Doran, Frank

  Bermingham, Gerald

  Duffy, Sir A. E. P.

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Dunnachie, Jimmy

  Blair, Tony

  Eadie, Alexander

  Blunkett, David

  Eastham, Ken

  Boateng, Paul

  Edwards, Huw

  Boyes, Roland

  Enright, Derek

  Bradley, Keith

  Evans, John (St Helens N)

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E)

  Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

  Fatchett, Derek

  Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

  Faulds, Andrew

  Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

  Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

  Caborn, Richard

  Fisher, Mark

  Callaghan, Jim

  Flannery, Martin

  Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

  Flynn, Paul

  Campbell-Savours, D. N.

  Foster, Derek

  Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

  Foulkes, George

  Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

  Fraser, John

  Clelland, David

  Fyfe, Maria

  Cohen, Harry

  Galbraith, Sam

  Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

  Galloway, George

  Cook, Robin (Livingston)

  Garrett, John (Norwich South)

  520

  Garrett, Ted (Wallsend)

  Meale, Alan

  George, Bruce

  Michael, Alun

  Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

  Moonie, Dr Lewis

  Godman, Dr Norman A.

  Morgan, Rhodri

  Golding, Mrs Llin

  Morley, Elliot

  Gordon, Mildred

  Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

  Gould, Bryan

  Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

  Graham, Thomas

  Mowlam, Marjorie

  Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

  Mullin, Chris

  Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

  Murphy, Paul

  Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

  Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

  Grocott, Bruce

  O'Brien, William

  Hain, Peter

  O'Hara, Edward

  Hardy, Peter

  O'Neill, Martin

  Harman, Ms Harriet

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

  Parry, Robert

  Haynes, Frank

  Patchett, Terry

  Heal, Mrs Sylvia

  Pendry, Tom

  Healey, Rt Hon Denis

  Pike, Peter L.

  Henderson, Doug

  Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

  Hinchliffe, David

  Prescott, John

  Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

  Primarolo, Dawn

  Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

  Quin, Ms Joyce

  Home Robertson, John

  Radice, Giles

  Hood, Jimmy

  Randall, Stuart

  Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

  Redmond, Martin

  Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

  Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn

  Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)

  Reid, Dr John

  Hoyle, Doug

  Richardson, Jo

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Robertson, George

  Hume, John

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  Ingram, Adam

  Rogers, Allan

  Janner, Greville

  Rooker, Jeff

  Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

  Rooney, Terence

  Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W)

  Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

  Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

  Ruddock, Joan

  Kilfoyle, Peter

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil

  Sheerman, Barry

  Kumar, Dr. Ashok

  Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

  Lestor, Joan (Eccles)

  Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)

  Lewis, Terry

  Smith, Rt Hon J. (Monk'ds E)

  Litherland, Robert

  Smith, J. P. (Vale of Glam)

  Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

  Snape, Peter

  Lofthouse, Geoffrey

  Soley, Clive

  Loyden, Eddie

  Steinberg, Gerry

  McAllion, John

  Stott, Roger

  McAvoy, Thomas

  Strang, Gavin

  McCartney, Ian

  Straw, Jack

  Macdonald, Calum A.

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

  McFall, John

  Turner, Dennis

  McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

  Vaz, Keith

  McKelvey, William

  Walley, Joan

  McLeish, Henry

  Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

  McMaster, Gordon

  Wareing, Robert N.

  McNamara, Kevin

  Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)

  McWilliam, John

  Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)

  Mahon, Mrs Alice

  Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)

  Mallon, Seamus

  Wilson, Brian

  Marek, Dr John

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Marshall, David (Shettleston)

  Worthington, Tony

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Young, David (Bolton SE)

  Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

  Martlew, Eric

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Maxton, John

  Mr. Eric Illsley and Mr. Jack Thompson.

  Meacher, Michael

  NOES

  Adley, Robert

  Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Alexander, Richard

  Atkins, Robert

  Alison, Rt Hon Michael

  Atkinson, David

  Allason, Rupert

  Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

  Amery, Rt Hon Julian

  Baldry, Tony

  Amess, David

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Amos, Alan

  Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

  Arbuthnot, James

  Batiste, Spencer

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

  Arnold, Sir Thomas

  Beggs, Roy

  Ashby, David

  Beith, A. J.

  521

  Bellingham, Henry

  Fearn, Ronald

  Bendall, Vivian

  Fenner, Dame Peggy

  Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  Benyon, W.

  Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey

  Bevan, David Gilroy

  Fishburn, John Dudley

  Biffen, Rt Hon John

  Fookes, Dame Janet

  Blackburn, Dr John G.

  Forman, Nigel

  Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Body, Sir Richard

  Forth, Eric

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman

  Boscawen, Hon Robert

  Fox, Sir Marcus

  Boswell, Tim

  Franks, Cecil

  Bottomley, Peter

  Freeman, Roger

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  French, Douglas

  Bowden, A. (Brighton K'pto'n)

  Fry, Peter

  Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

  Gale, Roger

  Bowis, John

  Gardiner, Sir George

  Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes

  Garel-Jones, Tristan

  Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

  Gill, Christopher

  Brandon-Bravo, Martin

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

  Brazier, Julian

  Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

  Bright, Graham

  Goodhart, Sir Philip

  Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  Browne, John (Winchester)

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

  Gorst, John

  Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

  Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

  Buck, Sir Antony

  Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

  Budgen, Nicholas

  Greenway, John (Ryedale)

  Burns, Simon

  Gregory, Conal

  Burt, Alistair

  Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E')

  Butcher, John

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  Butler, Chris

  Grist, Ian

  Butterfill, John

  Ground, Patrick

  Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

  Grylls, Michael

  Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

  Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

  Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

  Hague, William

  Carrington, Matthew

  Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie

  Carttiss, Michael

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Cartwright, John

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Cash, William

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda

  Hannam, John

  Channon, Rt Hon Paul

  Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

  Chapman, Sydney

  Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

  Chope, Christopher

  Harris, David

  Churchill, Mr

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Clark, Rt Hon Alan (Plymouth)

  Hawkins, Christopher

  Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

  Hayes, Jerry

  Clark, Rt Hon Sir William

  Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney

  Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

  Hayward, Robert

  Colvin, Michael

  Heath, Rt Hon Edward

  Conway, Derek

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

  Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

  Cormack, Patrick

  Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE)

  Couchman, James

  Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

  Cran, James

  Hill, James

  Critchley, Julian

  Hind, Kenneth

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

  Curry, David

  Hordern, Sir Peter

  Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

  Howard, Rt Hon Michael

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

  Day, Stephen

  Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

  Devlin, Tim

  Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Dickens, Geoffrey

  Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)

  Dicks, Terry

  Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Howells, Geraint

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

  Dover, Den

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

  Dunn, Bob

  Hunt, Rt Hon David

  Durant, Sir Anthony

  Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

  Dykes, Hugh

  Hunter, Andrew

  Eggar, Tim

  Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

  Emery, Sir Peter

  Irvine, Michael

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

  Jack, Michael

  Evennett, David

  Jackson, Robert

  Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

  Janman, Tim

  Fallon, Michael

  Jessel, Toby

  Farr, Sir John

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Favell, Tony

  Johnston, Sir Russell

  522

  Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Jones, Robert B (Herts W)

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

  Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)

  Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

  Norris, Steve

  Kennedy, Charles

  Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley

  Key, Robert

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Kilfedder, James

  Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

  King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

  Page, Richard

  King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

  Paice, James

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Paisley, Rev Ian

  Kirkwood, Archy

  Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

  Knapman, Roger

  Patnick, Irvine

  Knight, Greg (Derby North)

  Patten, Rt Hon Chris (Bath)

  Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

  Patten, Rt Hon John

  Knowles, Michael

  Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Knox, David

  Pawsey, James

  Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

  Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

  Lang, Rt Hon Ian

  Porter, Barry (Wirral S)

  Latham, Michael

  Porter, David (Waveney)

  Lawrence, Ivan

  Portillo, Michael

  Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Lee, John (Pendle)

  Price, Sir David

  Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

  Raffan, Keith

  Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

  Raison, Rt Hon Sir Timothy

  Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)

  Rathbone, Tim

  Lightbown, David

  Redwood, John

  Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

  Renton, Rt Hon Tim

  Livsey, Richard

  Rhodes James, Sir Robert

  Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)

  Riddick, Graham

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

  Lord, Michael

  Ridsdale, Sir Julian

  Luce, Rt Hon Sir Richard

  Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm

  Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

  Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn

  Macfarlane, Sir Neil

  Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

  MacGregor, Rt Hon John

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

  Ross, William (Londonderry E)

  Maclean, David

  Rossi, Sir Hugh

  Maclennan, Robert

  Rost, Peter

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Rowe, Andrew

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael

  Rumbold, Rt Hon Mrs Angela

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick

  Ryder, Rt Hon Richard

  Madel, David

  Sackville, Hon Tom

  Maginnis, Ken

  Sainsbury, Hon Tim

  Major, Rt Hon John

  Sayeed, Jonathan

  Malins, Humfrey

  Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas

  Mans, Keith

  Shaw, David (Dover)

  Maples, John

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Marland, Paul

  Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

  Marlow, Tony

  Shelton, Sir William

  Marshall, John (Hendon S)

  Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)

  Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

  Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Mates, Michael

  Shersby, Michael

  Maude, Hon Francis

  Sims, Roger

  Mawhinney, Dr Brian

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

  Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

  Mellor, Rt Hon David

  Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Soames, Hon Nicholas

  Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

  Speed, Keith

  Miller, Sir Hal

  Speller, Tony

  Mills, Iain

  Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W)

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Squire, Robin

  Mitchell, Sir David

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Moate, Roger

  Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

  Molyneaux, Rt Hon James

  Steel, Rt Hon Sir David

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Steen, Anthony

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Stephen, Nicol

  Moore, Rt Hon John

  Stern, Michael

  Morris, M (N'hampton S)

  Stevens, Lewis

  Morrison, Sir Charles

  Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

  Morrison, Rt Hon Sir Peter

  Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

  Moss, Malcolm

  Stewart, Rt Hon Sir Ian

  Moynihan, Hon Colin

  Stokes, Sir John

  Neale, Sir Gerrard

  Sumberg, David

  Needham, Richard

  Summerson, Hugo

  Nelson, Anthony

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Neubert, Sir Michael

  Taylor, Ian (Esher)

  Newton, Rt Hon Tony

  Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

  523

  Taylor, Sir Teddy

  Wallace, James

  Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

  Waller, Gary

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Walters, Sir Dennis

  Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

  Ward, John

  Thomas, Dr Dafydd Elis

  Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

  Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)

  Warren, Kenneth

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Watts, John

  Thorne, Neil

  Wells, Bowen

  Thornton, Malcolm

  Wheeler, Sir John

  Thurnham, Peter

  Widdecombe, Ann

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

  Wilkinson, John

  Tracey, Richard

  Wilshire, David

  Tredinnick, David

  Winterton, Mrs Ann

  Trimble, David

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Trippier, David

  Wolfson, Mark

  Trotter, Neville

  Wood, Timothy

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Woodcock, Dr. Mike

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Yeo, Tim

  Viggers, Peter

  Young, Sir George (Acton)

  Wakeham, Rt Hon John

  Younger, Rt Hon George

  Waldegrave, Rt Hon William

  Walden, George

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N)

  Mr. John M. Taylor and Mr. Nicholas Baker.

  Walker, Bill (T'side North)

  Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester)

  Question accordingly negatived.
  10.14 pm
  Mr. Robert G. Hughes: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. At the beginning of this Session we passed a Sessional Order to enable the byways to be kept clear for hon. Members to get to this House. Clearly something has gone wrong. Where are the other 29 Labour Members of Parliament? Where have they gone?
  Main Question put: —
  The House divided: Ayes 351, Noes 250.

  Division No. 15]

  [10.15 pm

  AYES

  Adley, Robert

  Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Brandon-Bravo, Martin

  Alexander, Richard

  Brazier, Julian

  Alison, Rt Hon Michael

  Bright, Graham

  Allason, Rupert

  Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

  Amery, Rt Hon Julian

  Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

  Amess, David

  Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

  Amos, Alan

  Buck, Sir Antony

  Arbuthnot, James

  Burns, Simon

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Burt, Alistair

  Arnold, Sir Thomas

  Butcher, John

  Ashby, David

  Butler, Chris

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Butterfill, John

  Atkins, Robert

  Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

  Atkinson, David

  Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

  Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

  Carrington, Matthew

  Baldry, Tony

  Carttiss, Michael

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Cartwright, John

  Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

  Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda

  Batiste, Spencer

  Channon, Rt Hon Paul

  Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

  Chapman, Sydney

  Bellingham, Henry

  Chope, Christopher

  Bendall, Vivian

  Churchill, Mr

  Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Clark, Rt Hon Alan (Plymouth)

  Benyon, W.

  Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

  Bevan, David Gilroy

  Clark, Rt Hon Sir William

  Blackburn, Dr John G.

  Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

  Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

  Colvin, Michael

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Conway, Derek

  Boscawen, Hon Robert

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

  Boswell, Tim

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Bottomley, Peter

  Cope, Rt Hon Sir John

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Cormack, Patrick

  Bowden, A. (Brighton K'pto'n)

  Couchman, James

  Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

  Critchley, Julian

  Bowis, John

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes

  Curry, David

  524

  Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

  Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

  Day, Stephen

  Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

  Devlin, Tim

  Hunt, Rt Hon David

  Dickens, Geoffrey

  Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

  Dicks, Terry

  Hunter, Andrew

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Irvine, Michael

  Dover, Den

  Jack, Michael

  Dunn, Bob

  Jackson, Robert

  Durant, Sir Anthony

  Janman, Tim

  Dykes, Hugh

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Eggar, Tim

  Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

  Emery, Sir Peter

  Jones, Robert B (Herts W)

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

  Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

  Evennett, David

  Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

  Fallon, Michael

  Key, Robert

  Farr, Sir John

  Kilfedder, James

  Fenner, Dame Peggy

  King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

  Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

  Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Fishburn, John Dudley

  Knapman, Roger

  Fookes, Dame Janet

  Knight, Greg (Derby North)

  Forman, Nigel

  Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Knowles, Michael

  Forth, Eric

  Knox, David

  Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman

  Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

  Fox, Sir Marcus

  Lang, Rt Hon Ian

  Franks, Cecil

  Latham, Michael

  Freeman, Roger

  Lawrence, Ivan

  French, Douglas

  Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

  Fry, Peter

  Lee, John (Pendle)

  Gale, Roger

  Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

  Gardiner, Sir George

  Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

  Garel-Jones, Tristan

  Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

  Lightbown, David

  Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

  Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

  Goodhart, Sir Philip

  Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  Lord, Michael

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Luce, Rt Hon Sir Richard

  Gorst, John

  Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

  Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

  Macfarlane, Sir Neil

  Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

  MacGregor, Rt Hon John

  Greenway, John (Ryedale)

  MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

  Gregory, Conal

  Maclean, David

  Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E')

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael

  Grist, Ian

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick

  Ground, Patrick

  Madel, David

  Grylls, Michael

  Major, Rt Hon John

  Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

  Malins, Humfrey

  Hague, William

  Mans, Keith

  Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie

  Maples, John

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Marland, Paul

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Marlow, Tony

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Marshall, John (Hendon S)

  Hannam, John

  Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

  Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

  Mates, Michael

  Harris, David

  Maude, Hon Francis

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Mawhinney, Dr Brian

  Hawkins, Christopher

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Hayes, Jerry

  Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

  Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney

  Mel lor, Rt Hon David

  Hayward, Robert

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Heath, Rt Hon Edward

  Miller, Sir Hal

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Mills, Iain

  Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE)

  Mitchell, Sir David

  Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

  Moate, Roger

  Hill, James

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Hind, Kenneth

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

  Moore, Rt Hon John

  Hordern, Sir Peter

  Morris, M (N'hampton S)

  Howard, Rt Hon Michael

  Morrison, Sir Charles

  Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

  Morrison, Rt Hon Sir Peter

  Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

  Moss, Malcolm

  Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Moynihan, Hon Colin

  525

  Neale, Sir Gerrard

  Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W)

  Needham, Richard

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

  Nelson, Anthony

  Squire, Robin

  Neubert, Sir Michael

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Newton, Rt Hon Tony

  Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Steen, Anthony

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Stern, Michael

  Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)

  Stevens, Lewis

  Norris, Steve

  Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

  Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley

  Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Stewart, Rt Hon Sir Ian

  Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

  Stokes, Sir John

  Page, Richard

  Sumberg, David

  Paice, James

  Summerson, Hugo

  Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Patnick, Irvine

  Taylor, Ian (Esher)

  Patten, Rt Hon Chris (Bath)

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Patten, Rt Hon John

  Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

  Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)

  Pawsey, James

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

  Thorne, Neil

  Porter, Barry (Wirral S)

  Thornton, Malcolm

  Porter, David (Waveney)

  Thurnham, Peter

  Portillo, Michael

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

  Price, Sir David

  Tracey, Richard

  Raffan, Keith

  Tredinnick, David

  Raison, Rt Hon Sir Timothy

  Trippier, David

  Rathbone, Tim

  Trotter, Neville

  Redwood, John

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Renton, Rt Hon Tim

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Rhodes James, Sir Robert

  Viggers, Peter

  Riddick, Graham

  Wakeham, Rt Hon John

  Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

  Waldegrave, Rt Hon William

  Ridsdale, Sir Julian

  Walden, George

  Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm

  Walker, Bill (T'side North)

  Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn

  Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester)

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Waller, Gary

  Rossi, Sir Hugh

  Walters, Sir Dennis

  Rost, Peter

  Ward, John

  Rowe, Andrew

  Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

  Rumbold, Rt Hon Mrs Angela

  Warren, Kenneth

  Ryder, Rt Hon Richard

  Watts, John

  Sackville, Hon Tom

  Wells, Bowen

  Sainsbury, Hon Tim

  Wheeler, Sir John

  Sayeed, Jonathan

  Whitney, Ray

  Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas

  Widdecombe, Ann

  Shaw, David (Dover)

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Wilkinson, John

  Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

  Wilshire, David

  Shelton, Sir William

  Wolfson, Mark

  Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)

  Wood, Timothy

  Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

  Woodcock, Dr. Mike

  Shersby, Michael

  Yeo, Tim

  Sims, Roger

  Young, Sir George (Acton)

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  Younger, Rt Hon George

  Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Soames, Hon Nicholas

  Mr. John M. Taylor and Mr. Nicholas Baker.

  Speed, Keith

  Speller, Tony

  NOES

  Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley, N.)

  Benton, Joseph

  Allen, Graham

  Bermingham, Gerald

  Anderson, Donald

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Archer, Rt Hon Peter

  Biffen, Rt Hon John

  Armstrong, Hilary

  Blair, Tony

  Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

  Blunkett, David

  Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

  Boateng, Paul

  Ashton, Joe

  Body, Sir Richard

  Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

  Boyes, Roland

  Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

  Bradley, Keith

  Barron, Kevin

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Battle, John

  Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

  Beckett, Margaret

  Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

  Beith, A. J.

  Browne, John (Winchester)

  Bell, Stuart

  Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

  Benn, Rt Hon Tony

  Caborn, Richard

  Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

  Callaghan, Jim

  526

  Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

  Hood, Jimmy

  Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

  Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

  Campbell-Savours, D. N.

  Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

  Canavan, Dennis

  Howells, Geraint

  Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

  Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)

  Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

  Hoyle, Doug

  Clay, Bob

  Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

  Clelland, David

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Cohen, Harry

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

  Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

  Hume, John

  Cook, Robin (Livingston)

  Ingram, Adam

  Corbett, Robin

  Janner, Greville

  Corbyn, Jeremy

  Johnston, Sir Russell

  Cousins, Jim

  Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

  Cox, Tom

  Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W)

  Crowther, Stan

  Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

  Cryer, Bob

  Kennedy, Charles

  Cummings, John

  Kilfoyle, Peter

  Cunliffe, Lawrence

  Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil

  Cunningham, Dr John

  Kirkwood, Archy

  Dalyell, Tam

  Kumar, Dr. Ashok

  Darling, Alistair

  Lambie, David

  Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

  Lestor, Joan (Eccles)

  Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

  Lewis, Terry

  Dewar, Donald

  Litherland, Robert

  Dixon, Don

  Livsey, Richard

  Dobson, Frank

  Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

  Doran, Frank

  Lofthouse, Geoffrey

  Douglas, Dick

  Loyden, Eddie

  Duffy, Sir A. E. P.

  McAllion, John

  Dunnachie, Jimmy

  McAvoy, Thomas

  Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

  McCartney, Ian

  Eadie, Alexander

  Macdonald, Calum A.

  Eastham, Ken

  McFall, John

  Edwards, Huw

  McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

  Enright, Derek

  McKelvey, William

  Evans, John (St Helens N)

  McLeish, Henry

  Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E)

  Maclennan, Robert

  Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)

  McMaster, Gordon

  Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

  McNamara, Kevin

  Fatchett, Derek

  McWilliam, John

  Faulds, Andrew

  Madden, Max

  Fearn, Ronald

  Mahon, Mrs Alice

  Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

  Mallon, Seamus

  Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)

  Marek, Dr John

  Fisher, Mark

  Marshall, David (Shettleston)

  Flannery, Martin

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Flynn, Paul

  Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

  Foster, Derek

  Martlew, Eric

  Foulkes, George

  Maxton, John

  Fraser, John

  Meacher, Michael

  Fyfe, Maria

  Meale, Alan

  Galbraith. Sam

  Michael, Alun

  Galloway, George

  Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

  Garrett, John (Norwich South)

  Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

  Garrett, Ted (Wallsend)

  Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

  George, Bruce

  Moonie, Dr Lewis

  Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

  Morgan, Rhodri

  Godman, Dr Norman A.

  Morley, Elliot

  Golding, Mrs Llin

  Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

  Gordon, Mildred

  Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

  Gould, Bryan

  Mowlam, Marjorie

  Graham, Thomas

  Mullin, Chris

  Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

  Murphy, Paul

  Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

  Nellist, Dave

  Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

  Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

  Grocott, Bruce

  O'Brien, William

  Hain, Peter

  O'Hara, Edward

  Hardy, Peter

  O'Neill, Martin

  Harman, Ms Harriet

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

  Paisley, Rev Ian

  Haynes, Frank

  Parry, Robert

  Heal, Mrs Sylvia

  Patchett, Terry

  Healey, Rt Hon Denis

  Pendry, Tom

  Henderson, Doug

  Pike, Peter L.

  Hinchliffe, David

  Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

  Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)

  Prescott, John

  Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

  Primarolo, Dawn

  Home Robertson, John

  Quin, Ms Joyce

  527

  Radice, Giles

  Steel, Rt Hon Sir David

  Randall, Stuart

  Steinberg, Gerry

  Redmond, Martin

  Stephen, Nicol

  Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn

  Stott, Roger

  Reid, Dr John

  Strang, Gavin

  Richardson, Jo

  Straw, Jack

  Robertson, George

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

  Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

  Thomas, Dr Dafydd Elis

  Rogers, Allan

  Turner, Dennis

  Rooker, Jeff

  Vaz, Keith

  Rooney, Terence

  Wallace, James

  Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

  Walley, Joan

  Rowlands, Ted

  Warden, Gareth (Gower)

  Ruddock, Joan

  Wareing, Robert N.

  Salmond, Alex

  Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)

  Sheerman, Barry

  Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)

  Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

  Williams, Rt Hon Alan

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)

  Shore, Rt Hon Peter

  Wilson, Brian

  Sillars, Jim

  Winnick, David

  Skinner, Dennis

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)

  Worthington, Tony

  Smith, Rt Hon J. (Monk'ds E)

  Young, David (Bolton SE)

  Smith, J. P. (Vale of Glam)

  Snape, Peter

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Soley, Clive

  Mr. Eric Illsley and Mr. Jack Thompson.

  Spearing, Nigel

  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That this House, believing it is in Britain's interests to continue to be at the heart of the European Community and able to shape its future and that of Europe as a whole, endorses the constructive negotiating approach adopted by Her Majesty's Government in the Inter-Governmental Conferences on Economic and Monetary Union and on Political Union; and urges them to work for an agreement at the forthcoming European Council at Maastricht which avoids the development of a federal Europe, enables this country to exert the greatest influence on the economic evolution of the Community while preserving the right of Parliament to decide at a future date whether to adopt a single
  528
  currency, on issues of Community competence concentrates the development of action on those issues which cannot be handled more effectively at national level and, in particular, avoids intrusive Community measures in social areas which arc matters for national decision, devlops a European security policy compatible with NATO and co-operation in foreign policy which safeguards this country's national interests, increases the accountability of the Commission, enhances the rule of law in the Community including improved implementation, enforcement and compliance with Community legislation, improves co-operation between European governments in the fight against drugs, terrorism and cross-border crime, and through these policies secures the long-term interests of the United Kingdom.

  ACCOMMODATION AND WORKS
  Ordered,
  That Mr. Patrick Cormack, Mr. Geraint Howells, Dame Jill Knight, Mr. David Lightbown, Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse, Mr. Ray Powell and Mr. Donald Thompson be members of the Accommodation and Works Committee.

  ADMINISTRATION
  Ordered,
  That Mr. Jacques Arnold, Sir Charles Irving, Mr. Allen McKay, Mr. Stanley Orme, Mrs. Marion Roe, Mr. William Ross and Mr. Tom Sackville be members of the Administration Committee.

  CATERING
  Ordered,
  That Mrs. Irene Adams, Mr. Don Dixon, Mr. Alan Haselhurst, Mr. Michael J. Martin, Mr. Colin Shepherd, Mr. Anthony Steen and Mr. John Townend be members of the Catering Committee.

  INFORMATION
  Ordered,
  That Mr. Spencer Batiste, Mr. Andrew F. Bennett, Mr. Huw Edwards, Sir Ian Lloyd, Mr. John McFall, Sir Fergus Montgomery and Mr. Gary Waller be members of the Information Committee.—[Sir Marcus Fox, on behalf of the Committee of Selection.]

  Adult Education (Croydon)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Kirkhope]
  10.29 pm
  Mr. Humfrey Matins: I am delighted to have the opportunity to raise on the Adjournment the question of adult education in Croydon, and to see you, Mr. Speaker, in the Chair, because you and I are privileged to represent constituencies in Croydon. It is an area of great variety. It is renowned as a business and commercial centre. In Croydon, a large number of people from different ethnic backgrounds live and work happily side by side. In many ways, it is a thriving area, although it is not without its pockets of deprivation. It is certainly an area where a variety of different needs and different expectations exist.
  For many years, we have been fortunate in the excellence of the Croydon borough council, and nowhere is this more true than in its education department. In my time, I have known two outstanding directors of education, Donald Naismith and Paul Benin's; and two very fine chairmen of education, Councillor Derek Loughborough and Councillor Andrew Pelling. Members of the education department and councillors alike have constantly striven to provide a high standard of education for as rich and diverse a society as one can imagine.
  Nowhere is this more true than in adult education. In Croydon, the continuing education and training service is a free-standing adult education service, with a history of providing an important access point for those with needs for basic skills It provides English for speakers of other languages, training for employment, accreditation and qualifications, as well as many opportunities for those who wish to follow a variety of general adult education courses. The large programme is planned on a borough-wide basis, and delivered locally in 11 centres. Three of these are full time, day and evening, and are used exclusively by adults: Coombe Cliff, South Norwood—in your constituency, Mr. Speaker—and Smitham.
  Last year, there were some 42,000 enrolernents, representing 28,000 individual students. Some 60 per cent. of enrolments are for vocational courses and 40 per cent. are for leisure courses.
  I know that you, Mr. Speaker, recently visited the South Norwood centre, and that you were mightily impressed by everything that you saw. I, too. was privileged to visit that centre and the one at Coombe Cliff, in the company of Margaret Davey, the head of continuing education and training service, and of Barbara Holland, who looks after South Norwood.
  What we both saw was impressive: adults of all ages atending a wide variety of courses. Keep fit was taking place alongside book-keeping; languages and embroidery were next to jobsearch; cookery and pottery were adjoining computer studies; upholstery was alongside management training and business start-up. The atmosphere was friendly. It was informal and, above all, accessible—evidence, no doubt, of the absence of entry requirements and the availability of fee concessions for those most in need. In the centres, the general public as well as students are made to feel welcome, and the atmosphere is overwhelmingly adult. I can well understand that many older and less confident people feel comfortable and unthreatened in such places.
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  Such a service is unique in the way in which it works through and with other partners, in both the voluntary and statutory sectors. Voluntary organisations have a key role in the total range of provision for adults and are strongly supported in Croydon. Three examples are the university of the third age, the south London refugee project, and the Croydon action group for the unemployed, where aspects of specialist work are undertaken, with the support of the adult service.
  Croydon's free-standing and continuing education and training service is cost-effective, vigorous and efficient. The net cost per student hour is about half what it is in the local colleges. It has a distinctive role in Croydon, quite separate from the large further and higher education college and yet there is still considerable collaboration with many joint projects and attention to progress routes into further education and beyond.
  I have a concern—the Government have sought to divide courses at centres into vocational on the one hand and leisure on the other. The implication is that responsibility for running vocational courses will rest with colleges, who will themselves apply to the funding council for money to run such vocational courses. So-called leisure courses will be left with the local authority in the adult education centres.
  Mr. Harry Greenway: As chairman of the all-party adult education committee, I congratulate my hon. Friend on this most important debate. Does he agree that there is another worry about separating vocational from non-vocational adult education? If one separates them, it may be assumed that vocational courses are more valid than non-vocational, but nothing could be further from the truth.
  Mr. Matins: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, because his expertise on this subject is well known, as is his general understanding of the problems involved. I hope to touch on the subject that he mentioned shortly.
  In Croydon dividing courses could have a number of damaging effects. Great damage could be caused to the prospects of the adult education centres, where currently vocational and so-called leisure courses exist happily side by side. The centres might have to go cap in hand to the Croydon college and the two sixth-form colleges in the borough asking their governing bodies to apply to the funding council for funds for vocational courses, in the hope that funds would be obtained on behalf of the adult education centres. A large part of their excellent work might disappear.
  There is a strong link between so-called vocational and so-called leisure courses. The person, for example, who is nervous or diffident or who has, or might have, unhappy memories of school, may initially have the courage to join a pottery or dancing class. Having plucked up the courage, he or she will find perhaps in the next room a course in Spanish or computer studies. He or she may well progress from one to the other. Surely that is to the general good.
  The Bengali lady who enrolled in an English cookery class, so that she could provide English food for some of her son's chums at school, is likely next to take a GCSE in English and help prepare herself for a job that may be just around the corner. The hesitant middle-aged gentleman who was brave enough to join a keep fit class later found himself confident enough to join the neighbouring

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  management training and business start-up class, and grew in confidence and ability to the extent that he opened up a new business. Such is the inextricable link and the social cohesion brought about by a variety of classes under the same roof.
  My concern is that the criteria for college eligible for funding, through the new funding council, will exclude a clearly successful service and a supportive authority such as that found in Croydon. The result could surely be a damaging split between the different types of courses, with responsibility for the eligible areas potentially fragmented between the further education college, sixth form colleges and the remainder. The so-called leisure and recreation programmes would be the responsibility of the local authority and might become too small to be financially, organisationally or educationally viable.
  If they went, what a loss it would be. Is there not a strong argument for the free-standing services such as Croydon's continuing education and training service to be able to bid direct to the funding council rather than through the new sector colleges?
  Another concern relates to premises. The three buildings in Croydon which are exclusively dedicated to the education of adults are intensively used as an important access point for people following general non-vocational, basic skills, accredited and work training programmes. They are used to capacity—daily, at weekends and holidays—and they are a valuable resource used by the voluntary sector. If the new sector colleges were able to apply for the use of those premises it could jeopardise the adult ethos and character of the provision and would subsequently deny many adults their first step back into education.
  I am not exaggerating when I say that I was inspired by all I saw at the adult education centres in Croydon. I dare say that you too, Mr. Speaker, were inspired by all you saw, and of course you have visited them all over the years and have great experience of this subject.
  For that reason, I am desperately concerned for their long-term well being, and I know that that sentiment is shared by you, Mr. Speaker, and by many thousands in Croydon, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Sir. W. Clark) who I am delighted to see in his place for this debate—I welcome his support—and by my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, Central (Mr. Moore).
  I cannot end this short debate without paying tribute to the Government, who have without doubt recognised that adult education is vital—that adults are an important client group who have education and training needs well worthy of Government interest and support. That is well recognised by the Government, to whom much credit is due.
  10.40 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Alan Howarth): I am grateful, as is the House, to my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. Malins) for providing us with this opportunity to consider education for adults in Croydon.
  The House always appreciates the close interest which you, Mr. Speaker, take in Adjournment debates initiated
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  by hon. Members on the Back Benches, but you will have an even greater personal interest than usual in this debate. Croydon is indeed a borough fortunate in its parliamentary representation. We also have present my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Sir W. Clark), so there is powerful representation in the House tonight in the interests of adult education in Croydon.
  I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West for two reasons. First, I am pleased that by means of this debate, we are able to look closely at one particular education service for adults. Secondly, I am glad to have the opportunity of relating the framework of our Further and Higher Education Bill, which has today been debated in another place, to the education for adults as it take place on the ground. The importance that we attach to the further education of adults will be clearly demonstrated through this debate.
  My hon. Friend has vividly described the features of the Croydon education and training service, which is one of the largest services for adults in the London area. It has an impressive enrolment count and a strong place in the local community. It establishes this place through a dispersed service which is accessible to the community at large, using a mix of dedicated facilities and the premises of schools and colleges.
  My hon. Friend demonstrated his close knowledge of the service in Croydon and made clear his commitment, and that of his hon. and right hon. Friends who represent Croydon constituencies, to the provision of a diverse and consistently high-quality service.
  Much of the provision in Croydon falls within those areas of priority which the Government have identified in the legislation—that is, courses leading to qualifications, basic skills courses, courses in English as a second language and access courses. The community is served in the widest sense through an open access policy which welcomes adults at whatever educational stage they have reached. It is also served by the good links which the service has established with the local training and enterprise council and with industry. I welcome the partnership it has established with voluntary organisations.
  Those are considerable strengths. Our policy on the further education of adults will pose no threat to them. Indeed, it will enable the Croydon education and training service, along with all others, to preserve the characteristics of their provision, including their community role, and to build on their strengths.
  I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his recognition of our firm commitment to the further education of adults. As he will know, our reforms for further education as a whole are designed to provide enhanced opportunities for both young people and adults and to provide a further stimulus to increased participation. We have provided for the transfer of further education and sixth form colleges to a new sector, which will be funded directly by new further education funding councils in England and Wales. We believe that the new funding regime will give colleges an even greater incentive to recruit additional students and to expand participation accordingly. For students—young people and adults alike—it will mean more opportunities to gain new skills, obtain qualifications and develop fully the roles that they need to fulfil themselves at work and as citizens.
  Our proposals, as set out in the White Paper "Education and Training for the 21st Century", have been

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  generally welcomed. But my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science and I were aware of some uncertainty about the place of adults within the new policy framework and the arrangements that would apply to them. We clarified a number of points before the legislation was introduced. The Bill addresses other concerns in a way that serves to underline our firm commitment to all kinds of further education for adults.
  Few of the provisions of the Bill belong uniquely to the 16–19 age group, but some have a very special application to the provision of further education for adults. I shall describe those provisions and how they will work for the adult sector at large, including the Croydon education and training service.
  The Bill provides a clear duty for the provision of all kinds of further education for adults. The whole scope of the present duty set out in the Education Act 1944 as amended is retained. We intend that, in future, it should be divided between the funding councils and LEAs. Within their respective duties, the councils and LEAs will each be required to take account of students with special educational needs.
  The funding councils' duty will embrace courses leading to academic and vocational qualifications; access to higher education courses; courses that provide access to qualification-bearing courses and higher education courses; basic skills courses; courses in English for speakers of other languages and, in Wales, courses leading to proficiency in Welsh. Those are the Government's priorities. They will be secured by the funding councils working through the colleges within the new sector. They cover courses which the Government believe should be secured at national level because of their national significance.
  The second strand of the duty to provide further education for adults falls to the local education authorities. Their duty covers all kinds of further education for adults that do not come within the scope of the funding councils' duty. By contrast with the duty placed upon the councils, the LEAs' duty can be characterised as being generally of a more local nature and best catered for locally. It is a duty that goes very wide. It covers the provision of courses that meet the leisure interests of adults, but also many other important interests.
  Courses coming within the remit of the LEAs' duty can help people progress to more advanced courses—my hon. Friend made that important point—help them in their jobs and prepare them for various roles, such as good parenthood, or for responsible functions within the wider community. They can make a significant contribution to the general health and well-being of individuals and local communities.
  The whole scope of the duty to secure provision for adults as it will be divided between the funding councils and LEAs will continue to be supported from public funds. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science made clear on 24 September that, in calculating the transfer of funds from local authorities to the funding councils in recognition of their new responsibilities, the resources attributable to those courses for which the LEAs will continue to be responsible will be left within local authorities' standard spending assessments. That means that there will be no question of our reforms causing fees to rise. LEAs will continue to be able, as now, to respond flexibly to local
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  demand and to the needs and circumstances of their local communities, taking account of the ability of students to pay fees.
  My hon. Friends the Members for Croydon, North-West and for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) have referred to a vocational/non-vocational divide within our proposals. I hope I can reassure my hon. Friends that the framework of duties within the Bill does not create such a divide. The provision for which the funding councils will be responsible goes well beyond the purely vocational. Similarly, the duty upon LEAs can lead to provision which serves ends useful to the individual within his work, such as foreign language classes. The arguments which have been advanced that our proposals create a distinction between two types of provision is not borne out either in terms of the legislation or in practical terms.
  It is important to underline the role of access and progression within the proposed framework. My hon. Friend has mentioned the strong link between provision which falls respectively to the duties of funding councils and LEAs. We attach great importance to widening access as is evident from the Bill. Certain kinds of access have been given priority and fall to the duty of the funding councils, but progression routes from LEA sector provision to more formal qualification-bearing courses are also important.
  The division of duties between the councils and LEA will not stand in the way of adults wishing to progress from informal study to courses leading to qualifications. Adults now study on all kinds of courses in a variety of institutions—further education colleges and adult education centres and colleges. They will continue to be able to enrol on courses in their local institutions, as they do at present, and to progress to more advanced provision. That might be within the same institution or elsewhere, depending upon the pattern of provision locally. Therefore, adults in Croydon will continue to be able to take full advantage of the access and progression routes provided by the Croydon education and training service.
  My hon. Friend raised two particular concerns. The first was about the funding relationship between the Croydon education and training service and colleges in the new further education sector in respect of the provision made by the service which falls to the duty of the funding council. We want to see all resources available for adults used properly—whether they are in further education colleges or in adult education colleges and centres run by LEAs. It follows therefore that we will expect further education colleges in the new sector to support provision which falls within the funding councils remit where this is made in adult education colleges and centres.
  We have considered carefully how our legislation will help to achieve that end. We propose that the governing body of an institution outside the funding council sector will be able to make to an institution within that sector a request that it should apply to the council for support on the external institutions behalf. The funding council sector institution will forward the application to the funding council if facilities for the kind of courses in question are not adequate in the locality. If the further education college does not forward the application, its decision will be subject to review by the Secretary of State on the grounds of unreasonableness or failure to perform a duty.
  The councils have a duty to secure facilities which are in such places, of such character and so equipped as to meet reasonable need. In addition, the regional advisory

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  committees will have an important role in advising the funding council for England on significant local issues. Their role will be to see that local people are properly served. I hope that I can reassure my hon. Friends and you, Mr. Speaker, on that point.
  Those are substantial safeguards. They mean that the Croydon education and training service will continue to be able to make provision which falls to the duty of the funding council and to receive council funding via the local further education college or colleges for the purpose. I note that the Croydon service has good collaborative links with Croydon further education college. These links, together with the safeguards within the legislation, will provide a firm basis for continuing collaboration in the interests of adult students.
  My hon. Friend asks whether the Croydon education and training service might be able to bid directly to the funding council. We think that our Bill has taken account of concerns of adult education colleges and services, such as Croydon, about funding for the range of provision they make. However, we recognise that some institutions may be interested in exploring the possibility of incorporation within the new further education sector by reason of the balance of provision they make. That is not ruled out.
  The Government had to set criteria in the Bill for the automatic transfer of further education colleges to the new sector, but the White Paper made it clear that the funding councils could propose that other institutions which fell outside the criteria might be included in the new arrangements. The Bill provides for this. Institutions which want to take forward the possibility of incorporation should make application to the funding councils. We propose to ask the funding councils to deal with such applications as one of their first tasks.
  Sir William Clark: I fully support what my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. Malins) has said, and I am delighted that the Minister supports funding. There is a problem about adult education in Croydon, but many other constituencies must suffer from the same problem. Does the Minister think it extraordinary that no Opposition Members are present for this important debate?
  Mr. Howarth: My right hon. Friend makes a pertinent point. Some Opposition complaints about our policies
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  have been factitious. Thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West, we have an opportunity to debate an immensely important issue about which there is great interest in the country. It is extraordinary that the Opposition Benches are empty and that neither Labour Members nor Liberal Democrats have bothered to attend the debate. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for drawing the matter to our attention.
  It is important that each institution considers very carefully whether such an application for incorporation would be appropriate in its case. LEAs have important duties to fulfil through these institutions and will continue to receive public funds in support of these duties. Under the Bill, they will also be able to give recognition to the status of their institutions by establishing governing bodies and by delegating functions to them. The best place for some institutions may indeed be within the funding council sector, but for others it may be within the local education authority.
  The second concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West is about the future of those premises of the Croydon service which are dedicated to the further education of adults. Let me put his mind at rest. A further education college can apply for an order to gain the use of local education authority premises after April 1993 only in tightly defined circumstances. First, the premises in question must have been used for further education purposes and have been, or be about to be, taken out of use for that purpose. Secondly, the further education college must have been unable to secure use of the premises by agreement with the local education authority. Our intention is to secure that facilities used for further education continue to remain available to the local community for further education purposes, where the college governors consider it important in order to carry out their responsibilities. This provision poses no threat to the Croydon service's premises.
  We have had a useful debate. The aim of our policy is to develop a better education system which will provide a wide range of important opportunities for adults in the interests of meeting the needs of the nation and of individual citizens. The Government are deeply committed to adult education. I am confident that our Bill will achieve its aims and that it will serve well the Croydon education and training service and the citizens of Croydon.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at one minute to Eleven o'clock.