Commons Sitting of 15 May 1991

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  PRIVATE BUSINESS

    ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT
    Motion made,
    That, with effect from the beginning of the next Session of Parliament, the following Standing Order be made:
    '27A.—(1) Subject to paragraph (8) below, in the case of a Bill authorising the carrying out of works the nature and extent of which are specified in the Bill on land so specified, there shall be deposited on or before 4th December in the Private Bill Office and at the Public Departments at which copies of the Bill are required to be deposited under Standing Order 39, either

    (a) a copy or copies (as specified by paragraph (2) below) of an environmental statement containing, in relation to the works authorised by the Bill, the information set out in Schedule 3 to the Town and Country Planning (Assessment of Environmental Effects) Regulations 1988 (referred to below as "Schedule 3") or such of that information as the Secretary of State may in any particular case direct, or

    (b) a copy or copies (as so specified) of a direction by the Secretary of State that no such statement is necessary in relation to the works authorised by the Bill.

    (2) The number of copies required to be deposited under paragraph (1)(a) or (b) above shall be three in the case of a deposit at the Department of the Environment and one in any other case.
    (3) Where any such works authorised by a Bill relate to two or more distinct projects each project may be treated separately for the purposes of paragraph (1) above; and the references in sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) of that paragraph to the works authorised by the Bill shall accordingly be construed, where the paragraph applies separately to each project as references to the works comprised in that project.
    (4) Notwithstanding any direction given as mentioned in paragraph (1)(a) above, any environmental statement of which copies are deposited under this Order shall contain the summary (referred to below as "the non-technical summary") required by paragraph (2)(e) and, where material, paragraph 4 of Schedule 3.
    (5) Where the Secretary of State has given a direction as mentioned in paragraph (1)(a) above, a copy of the direction shall be deposited with every copy of the environmental statement deposited under this Order; and every copy of a direction so deposited or deposited under paragraph (1)(b) above shall be accompanied by a statement by the Secretary of State of his reasons for giving the direction.
    (6) Copies of every environmental statement deposited under this Order shall be made available for inspection, and for sale at a reasonable price, on and after 4th December, at the offices at which copies of the Bill are required to be made available under Standing Order 4A; and there shall also be made available separately on and after that date at those offices, for inspection and for sale at a reasonable price, copies of the non-technical summary.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
    Hon. Members: Object.
    To be considered on Monday 20 May at Seven o'clock.

    ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT
      HIGHLAND REGIONAL COUNCIL (HARBOURS) ORDER
        CONFIRMATION BILL
        Mr. Secretary Lang presented a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under section 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, relating to Highland Regional Council (Harbours); and the same was read the First time; and ordered to be considered on Tuesday 21 May and to be printed. [Bill 158.]
Oral Answers to Questions
  SCOTLAND

    Right to Buy
    Mr. Andrew Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the Government's right-to-buy housing policy in Scotland.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton): Since 1979, more than 217,000 public sector houses have been sold to sitting tenants in Scotland under the right-to-buy legislation. This has helped to raise the proportion of owner-occupiers in Scotland from around 35 to over 51 per cent. Through the right to buy, the Government are successfully meeting the aspirations of Scottish people to own their homes.
    Mr. Mitchell: As those figures show clearly the great success of the right-to-buy scheme in Scotland at spreading ownership, choice and opportunity, will my hon. Friend confirm that the rent-to-mortgage scheme is similarly popular? Does he expect that, as with the right-to-buy scheme, Labour Members will have to eat their words about the rent-to-mortgage scheme?
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: Yes, I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. Some 20,000 people have expressed interest in the rent-to-mortgage scheme, which caters for a different market from the right-to-buy scheme. I believe that it will be extremely popular. Moreover, for every 1,000 sales, it will bring in approximately £8 million to the local authorities concerned which they can spend on public sector housing, so they are strongly encouraged to take up that opportunity and give assistance.
    Mr. Norman Hogg: Will the Minister extend his enthusiasm for tenants' rights to the tenants of Scottish new towns and give them the right to choose their district council as landlord? I hope that the Minister will not say that it is a matter for his hon. Friend, the Under-Secretary of State, because Governments have collective responsibility.
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: No options are ruled out in that connection. We are considering the submission on behalf of new town tenants and shall come to a conclusion in due course. I enjoyed my visit to the hon. Gentleman's district council, where rapid progress is being made, and I look forward to its continuing.
    Mr. Sillars: Will the Minister confirm that, out of the 20,000 expressions of interest in the rent-to-mortgage scheme, only 118 people are applying to buy their own homes? Will he also confirm that his Department's expenditure on advertising and administration for those 118 houses is £275,000? Is he aware that that compares with the mere £280,000 available for new start capital works for 14,500 houses in the Moss Park area of Govan? When will he get his priorities right?
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: It is extremely important that tenants should be carefully and professionally counselled before they take that step and that process is under way. Naturally, it will start gradually, as it did
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    under the right-to-buy scheme. If the hon. Gentleman wants more funds to be spent on Moss Park, I suggest that he makes representations to Glasgow district council to speed up the processing of council house sales, which takes about a year, and ensure that the period is reduced to six months. If he does, millions of pounds could be saved for spending on his constituents and on public sector housing stock in Glasgow.

    Scottish TUC
    Mr. Eadie: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many requests he has had for a meeting with the Scottish Trades Union Congress since he became Secretary of State; and what has been his response.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Allan Stewart): My right hon. Friend has received one such request and has indicated his willingness to meet the STUC at a suitable opportunity. I myself met the general council of the STUC on 15 February for a general discussion on the Scottish economy.
    Mr. Eadie: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for that reply, but it is not consistent with the information that I have received, which is that the Secretary of State refused to meet the STUC to discuss reopening Monktonhall colliery. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that yesterday a lobby of thousands of miners and other interested people presented to No. 10 Downing street petitions requesting that Monktonhall colliery in my constituency be reopened? In the light of the hon. Gentleman's answer, the apparent confusion in the Scottish Office and all that we heard from the Secretary of State for Scotland at the Conservative party conference in Perth, which was nothing but rhetoric, will the STUC be driven to ask for a meeting with the Prime Minister to discuss the perilous state of the Scottish economy?
    Mr. Stewart: Decisions on the future of individual pits are a matter for British Coal. The corporation is permitted to review the position of Monktonhall in mid-1991. I can absolutely assure the hon. Gentleman and the House that my right hon. Friend has agreed to meet the STUC for a general discussion, following its congress. That meeting will take place.
    Mr. Bill Walker: When my hon. Friend meets the STUC, will he draw its attention to the responsible way in which the shop stewards at Rosyth naval base have lobbied for their base and contrast that with the way in which the Transport and General Workers Union behaved over Ford in Dundee? The STUC, with its socialist and nationalist attitude, is opposed to directors representing trade unions in our finest Scottish companies.
    Mr. Stewart: I understand my hon. Friend's latter point, but I do not think that I should intrude on the internal grief of the STUC. As for Ford at Dundee, while my hon. Friend's criticism of the Transport and General Workers Union is correct, it is worth putting on the record the fact that the Amalgamated Engineering Union did its best to achieve that major project for Scotland. I echo what my hon. Friend said about the shop stewards at Rosyth, whom, I, with a large number of hon. Members, have met.
    Mr. Galbraith: When the Secretary of State finally meets the STUC, will he discuss opt-out hospitals—a matter on which its affiliates must be consulted? Will he explain why yesterday in the House the Prime Minister said that decisions on opting out should be made by "medical people"? Is the Secretary of State aware that in Scotland more than 80 per cent. of medical people—the doctors—voted against opting out? Why does the Secretary of State, in the Prime Minister's words, have "so little faith" in the doctors? Why does not the Secretary of state, even at this late stage, listen to the doctors and stop the opting-out nonsense?
    Mr. Stewart: The Ayrshire NHS trust is led by a consultant. When I saw the first 25 questions on the Order Paper, I came to the conclusion that the hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith) and his collegues were running scared of my hon. Friend the Minister of State because there was not a single question on education or health.
    I can assure the hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden that my hon. Friend the Minister of State has agreed to meet the STUC on that matter.

    Scottish Fishermen's Federation
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he last met office-bearers of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation; if decommissioning was discussed; and if he will make a statement.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Ian Lang): I met representatives of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation on 23 April in London and, with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, on 10 May in Perth, when a number of fisheries issues, including decommissioning, were discussed.
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I thank my right hon. Friend for having arranged the meeting between the fishermen's leaders and the Prime Minister in Perth last Friday, which was greatly appreciated. Does my right hon. Friend acknowledge that decommissioning is an effective conservation measure which takes vessels out of the fleet and thereby reduces fishing efforts? What advice would he give to the fishermen's leaders about what further evidence or information he requires from them to persuade his colleagues of the justice of the case which the fishermen and others have been making for many months?
    Mr. Lang: I certainly acknowledge the consistency with which my right hon. Friend has advanced the case and the great importance that the Scottish Fishermen's Federation attaches to it. My discussions with the federation were useful and I was able to put the point that while decommissioning reduces capacity, it does not necessarily reduce effort. It is the reduction of effort which is most important. I have told the federation that if it cared to introduce a package of proposals in which decommissioning was a component I should be willing to consider it.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: Is the Secretary of State aware of the mounting evidence that the eight-day tie-up scheme is being administered with extreme harshness, not with the flexibility that was promised when it was announced? There is much confusion about the view of the Scottish Office and the Government on decommissioning. Would it not be better if the Secretary of State commissioned an
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    independent study by experts in fishing and economics to have a clear look at the matter? That would avoid the prospect of the Secretary of State, simply because he thinks that events may affect his political future, saying that he will consider the matter, while the Government resist on every occasion. Why cannot there be an independent assessment? The case could be proved without a shadow of doubt. We could then have a decommissioning scheme and honour would be saved, too.
    Mr. Lang: The hon. Gentleman knows that the eight-day tie-up arrangements are subject to conditions set down in a European regulation and are not at the discretion of the Government. To the extent that we have discretion in the matter, the tie-up arrangements are being applied as flexibly as is compatible with the important need to conserve stocks. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would agree that the most important criterion in the whole exercise is the need to conserve stocks, especially of cod and haddock, so that there will be fish for future generations of fishermen.
    Mr. Kirkwood: Does not the Secretary of State accept, however, that other European countries are implementing effective Government-backed decommissioning schemes to enable skippers and owners who want to leave the North sea fishery to do so? Is he also aware that other European Governments are implementing effective compensation for the tie-up period and social security schemes for people who work on boats but are not skippers or owners? Why are the interests of crewmen in this country being prejudiced, when they operate a fisheries policy common to European Community? Why are they not getting the same benefits as are available in other countries?
    Mr. Lang: Decommissioning schemes are in operation in other countries, but that does not exempt them from the need to apply other conservation measures as well, including the eight-day tie-up. If the Scottish Fishermen's Federation produced a package of proposals including a decommissioning component—perhaps funded to some extent by the industry—we should be willing to consider it. Our overriding priority is to ensure the conservation of stocks so that fish are there for the future.
    Mr. Doran: Is the Secretary of State aware that, as well as the crisis in the fish catching side of the industry, a tragedy is taking place in the processing side of the industry, with businesses closing down on a regular basis? A dangerous situation is developing. In the north-east of Scotland we shall lose a large proportion of our fish processing industry. Is the Secretary of State aware that when fish processors recently made representations to the Scottish Office, they were rebuffed? There was no sign of sympathy whatsoever. What are the Secretary of State's proposals to assist fish processors through this difficult and dangerous time?
    Mr. Lang: Of course, I appreciate the knock-on effects on the fish processing industry, but other options are open to fish processors, such as diversifying into other stocks and importing stocks. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we have secured for the industry European Community grant aid of about £15 million for 1991–93. That will be of considerable value to the industry in modernising its premises and processing capacity.

    Local Government
    Sir David Steel: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received about the restructuring of local government; and what consultations he proposes to hold.
    Mrs. Irene Adams: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultations he has had about the future structure of local government in Scotland.
    Mr. Lang: We intend to consult widely on the future structure of local government in Scotland. A range of representations has already been received. I have already held discussions with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and a further meeting will take place shortly.
    Sir David Steel: Will the Secretary of State admit that among the representations that he received were considerable expressions of regret that he had not seen fit to appoint an independent commission to review the structure of local government, as is being done in England? Does he accept that a further advantage, apart from the Government's not being able to rig the system, would be that the commission's report would be ready in time for the Scottish parliament to legislate on the matter?
    Mr. Lang: The right hon. Gentleman anticipates one or two matters. If in the consultations there are extensive representations on the need for a commission, I shall consider them in the same way as I shall consider all other representations. The right hon. Gentleman should be under no illusions about what is taking place in England. There is no royal commission as was suggested. It is an advisory commission which replaces the Local Government Boundary Commission. Scotland is not engaged in a gradual area-by-area rolling process against a background of greater scale and greater diversity, such as exists in England. Ours is a more coherent and comprehensible system of local government and it should be possible to move with relative ease to single-tier all-purpose authorities. If there is a relevant role for the Local Government Boundary Commission in our deliberations, we shall consider that as well.
    Mrs. Adams: The Secretary of State must answer the question. Why is it necessary for a commission to say what the structure of local government in England and Wales should be while the Tory party, which does not have the confidence of the Scottish people, can define on the back of an envelope the structure of local government in Scotland? Did the Secretary of State support within Cabinet a commission for England and Wales and once more fail miserably to win the same concession for Scotland?
    Mr. Lang: The hon. Lady is wrong. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales does not contemplate such a commission for Wales, because the situation there is different from that in England. I intend to have extremely wide consultations in Scotland. We are contemplating two consultation papers, not one, and we plan to consult over a reasonable period so that there will be every opportunity for full representations to be made to us. We intend to move forward with general agreement and support to achieve a lasting solution that will be relevant to the needs of all the different parts of Scotland.
    Sir Hector Monro: Will my right hon. Friend say something about the time scale for consultation, legislation and the implementation of his policy? Will he bear in mind the fact that what may be sensible for the central belt may not be suitable for rural Scotland? There could be a great deal to be said for returning to the old county boundaries, which proved very satisfactory over the previous century.
    Mr. Lang: On the time scale, I assure my hon. Friend that we hope to publish our first consultation paper within the next few weeks. We shall consult on that during the summer with a view to publishing a further consultation paper in the autumn. Legislation might reasonably be contemplated in 1993–94, with a new system coming into place in 1996. I emphasise that those times are not fixed; they are general objectives. I certainly agree that we should not seek to impose right across Scotland a system that might not suit the variations in geography and demography and in local loyalties. I have not lost sight of my hon. Friend's important point about loyalties to the old county councils.
    Mr. Dewar: Does the Secretary of State accept that if the local government map is a Tory in-house job there is a danger that it will command no confidence because it will be seen as a partisan exercise? I take some encouragement from the right hon. Gentleman's initial answer, which suggested that the door is not entirely shut on independent advice. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, which, I think, speaks for councils of every political colour and, of course, all three main Opposition parties in the House are in favour of an independent commission to set the parameters of debate and to make recommendations. In recent times we have had the Wheatley commission, the Stodart report and the Montgomery committee report. Why have those sensible precedents been departed from and why is such independent advice not considered necessary, at least initially, in this case? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it would be wise to heed that argument as all the evidence suggests that although he may start the process of change, a Labour Government will take the final decision?
    Mr. Lang: It seems that the hon. Gentleman is the only Opposition Member who is seized of that opinion. I agree that the Stodart committee and others in the area of local government in the past 20 or 30 years have set valuable precedents and carried out much work. The information that they gathered makes our task easier. I take it from the hon. Gentleman's reference to the importance of an independent commission that he would set up such a commission before drawing up any plans to create a Scottish assembly.
    Mr. Bill Walker: Does my right hon. Friend agree that throughout Scotland there is a mood for single-tier, all-purpose authorities which has been brought about because the public have never comprehended which services were provided by which council? Consequently, Members of Parliament have frequently had to deal with council matters because of difficulties that the public have had to face. That is what we are now offering.
    Mr. Lang: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are seeking to achieve a new and durable system of local government for Scotland that will be efficient and popular and will increase the accountability of local authorities to

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    their residents. It should remove duplication, conflict and bureaucracy and make for better and stronger local government.

    Child Abuse
    Dr. Godman: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow of 26 April, Official Report, columns 618–19, if it is his intention to introduce legislative provisions akin to those contained in part III of the Criminal Justice Bill; and if he will make a statement.
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: No. The provisions in the Bill have been designed specifically for England and Wales. We need to consider separately what is most suitable for Scotland and in particular the Scottish Law Commission's recommendations in its report on the evidence of children and other potentially vulnerable witnesses.
    Dr. Godman: Part III of the Criminal Justice Bill and the English Children Act 1989 show all too plainly the disturbing discrepancy between English and Scottish child care law. Given that discrepancy and the recent and continuing inquiries into abuses of children, has not the time arrived for a Minister of State at the Scottish Office to be given specific responsibility for child protection? Should not his first duty be to initiate a critical and tough-minded examination of child care law and practices? We can trust social work departments, but these worrying developments need a Minister of State to carry out such duties.
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: We have a Minister of State who has promised a White Paper on the subject. A report on child care law was published last October and we have received extensive comments on its recommendations. On 19 April, my right hon. Friend announced his intention to establish a judicial inquiry following the recent child protection cases in the Orkneys. We will take into account its findings in preparing the White Paper, which will set out a coherent package of measures to improve and simplify arrangements for the protection and support of children in Scotland.
    The hon. Gentleman will know that changes have been made to the legislation, because he proposed them. Following consultation with the judiciary, the new procedures in courts will be introduced in Edinburgh and Glasgow later this year. They will be carefully monitored with a view to reducing stress on child witnesses. We will review the practice and, if necessary, legislate further in the light of experience.
    Mr. Wallace: I congratulate the Secretary of State on his prompt response to the calls for a judicial inquiry into the events in Orkney. He will agree that we look to that inquiry to come forward with positive proposals to improve child care law. Does he accept that the inquiry will be more effective and better informed if the parents involved have adequate funding for proper legal representation? Can the Minister make a statement on that?
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: I have written fully to the hon. Member on the subject of legal aid. I understand
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    that the immediate problem has been resolved, but if there are further matters I shall be happy to meet the hon. Members to discuss them in detail and to follow them up.

    Council Tax
    Mr. Home Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has any plans to change the number of bands upon which the Government's new council tax is to be based.
    Mr. Allan Stewart: My right hon. Friend will be considering carefully the responses to the consultation paper on the new tax. Those responses will no doubt cover the question of the number of bands needed. We do not, however, at this stage envisage a change from the proposed seven band system.
    Mr. Home Robertson: This story is going to run and run. How can the Government justify prolonging the agony of the poll tax for a further chaotic two years or, as is probably more likely, for three years while they try to stitch up all those bands? If the Minister is seriously interested in fairness in local government taxation, will he concede that Lothian region is a moderate-spending local authority, which has been compelled to levy a very high poll tax because it gets £88·68 less per head in grant from the Scottish Office than the Scottish average? Can we have fair banding for revenue support grant this year, instead of capping Lothian's eminently responsible and reasonable budget?
    Mr. Stewart: The hon. Member knows perfectly well what the situation is in respect of Lothian region. My right hon. Friend has agreed to meet the regional council if it wishes to make representations to him. As regards the more general question about banding, I think that the whole House will appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is very knowledgeable about very big houses, but I hope that he will be reassured by the fact that owners in the top band will pay about two and half times the amount that owners of properties in the smallest band will pay, and that is perfectly fair. The Government have taken major action to reduce the burden of the community charge in Scotland, as in England and Wales, in the light of the quite outrageous increases imposed by many Labour councils.
    Mr. Douglas: Before the Minister contemplates looking at any new tax, will he take some time to examine what is happening to local authorities because of the poll tax? Will he consider introducing legislation—we do not have much legislation in Scottish terms—to take out the 20 per cent. rule and eliminate the arresting of benefits, especially those involving social security? Will he do that and get rid of this arduous and hazardous impost on the people of Scotland?
    Mr. Stewart: The House has debated that matter and has taken a decision. As regards collection, if the figures being alleged by the local authorities are correct, it is obviously sensible for them to concentrate first on getting the community charge collected from those who are liable for the full payment.
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: In the light of experience with the community charge, will my hon. Friend keep his two major objectives—first, simplicity in relation to the new tax, and secondly, low costs of administration and

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    collection? If both those are achieved, there will be better understanding among taxpayers and, as a result, better accountability from local authorities.
    Mr. Stewart: My right hon. Friend makes two valid points. The council tax will, of course, be simpler and will have lower costs of collection than the community charge system.
    Mr. Maxton: When will the Minister acknowledge that the disastrous poll tax, of which he was such a loyal supporter until he was told to change his mind, has created an enormous financial crisis for local government and for the many poor people in Scotland? As a result of that crisis, immediate action is demanded—not long consultations about some new tax in the future. In view of that fact, and of the light legislative load, why do not the Government abolish the 20 per cent. rule now and introduce legislation, which will have our full support, to return to the old rating system on 1 April 1992? Thereafter, if he wants to change it, it will be a matter for him and the Government, if they are still in power.
    Mr. Stewart: When will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the community charge system was brought in because the domestic rating system was patently unfair, patently unjust and patently did not have the confidence of the people of Scotland? When will he acknowledge that that is precisely the system that he and his colleagues wish to bring back and to enforce on the people of Scotland? It was completely unworkable before.

    Tourism
    Sir Russell Johnston: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimates he has made of the effect of the increased tax on petrol on the tourist industry in Scotland.
    Mr. Allan Stewart: The increase in petrol duty introduced by the Budget is not likely to have a significant effect on the Scottish tourist industry.
    Sir Russell Johnston: It is self-evident that St. Andrew's house is hardly a hotbed of innovative thinking if that is the best that the Minister can come up with. Is he aware that 64 per cent. of all tourists who visited Scotland in 1989 from within the United Kingdom and half of the foreign tourists came by car? Is he seriously telling me that an increase of 13p per gallon will have no effect at all on tourism? Surely St. Andrew's house ought to be considering differential pricing to aid the tourist industry. Some means of mitigating the effect of the increase ought to be found, or does the Minister regard the Chancellor as a blind axeman and feel that he can do nothing about it?
    Mr. Stewart: St. Andrew's house is the source of some figures that will reassure the hon. Gentleman. In the United Kingdom, excise duty on unleaded petrol—I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, like me, uses unleaded petrol—is 22·41p per litre, whereas in Spain it is 23·76, in France 29·70 and in Italy 36·07. If overseas visitors were to decide to take their holidays on the basis of the amount of excise duty they would have to pay they would obviously choose the United Kingdom.
    Sir Nicholas Fairbairn: Will my hon. Friend invite the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston) to reflect on the fact that if there were a Scottish
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    assembly with tax-raising powers, the cost of petrol, hotels and shopping in Scotland would be so appalling that nobody would come to Scotland at all?
    Mr. Stewart: As always, my hon. and learned Friend has made an extremely good point. It is very fortunate for tourists and potential tourists in Scotland that there is no Scottish assembly; nor is there going to be one.
    Mr. McAllion: What will be the effect on the tourist industry of last week's decision to turn down flat the management-employee bid at Strathtay Scottish bus company in Tayside and instead to accept the bid of a Yorkshire-based private concern that will guarantee the loss of employment and services in the Tayside area? Does the Minister not understand that the more he goes on selling out Scottish-based companies to the highest bidder, the greater will be the determination of the Scottish people to get rid of him and the Tory Government?
    Mr. Stewart: What a load of nonsense the hon. Gentleman talks, and not for the first time. He ought to know that many of the management-employee buy-out proposals have been accepted in Scotland and that, under the system, management-employee buy-outs were given preference. That particular buy-out did not succeed, but others have.
    Mr. Gregory: Does my hon. Friend agree that while the price of petrol will have an effect on tourism in Scotland, the fact that Scotland will not participate with the rest of the United Kingdom in a national tourism trade show must be the greatest disadvantage to the potential for tourism in Scotland? Will he put pressure on the director and board members of the Scottish tourist board to participate with the rest of the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Stewart: I can reassure my hon. Friend and the House that both the Scottish tourist board and Highlands and Islands Enterprise continue to promote Scotland both at home and overseas. The campaigns are targeted at all key markets overseas, while at home the Scottish tourist board has joined the other national tourist boards in mounting a special tourist campaign to encourage more British tourists to have holidays at home. I can also reassure my hon. Friend that both the Scottish tourist board and Highlands and Islands Enterprise continue to devote considerable resources to the improvement of visitor facilities and amenities.

    Scottish TUC
    Mr. David Marshall: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has any plans to meet the general council of the Scottish Trades Union Congress to discuss unemployment in Scotland.
    Mr. Lang: I have indicated my willingness to meet the general council of the STUC at a suitable opportunity. Employment and unemployment could no doubt be discussed at such a meeting.
    Mr. Marshall: I appeal to the Secretary of State, before he meets the general council of the STUC, to read and consider the recent series of articles in the Glasgow Evening Times entitled
    "The Age of the Dole",
    part of which refers to the adult male level of 48 per cent. unemployment in Parkhead, North in my constituency,

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    the highest level of unemployment in Strathclyde. With unemployment rising rapidly, will the Secretary of State shake off his complacency, reverse his recent hard-hearted decision not to meet Glasgow Labour Members to discuss unemployment in the city and agree to meet us urgently?
    Mr. Lang: The hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends will be well aware that unemployment in Glasgow has fallen by more than 40 per cent. in the past four years, a dramatic indication of the Government's policies. As to the Glasgow Evening Times series of articles, I can only assume that it is looking forward to the future of a possible Labour Government when, as a result of the Labour party's minimum wage, jobs would be lost, as a result of Labour's payroll tax, jobs would be lost, as a result of the Labour party's Scottish assembly tax, jobs would be lost, and as a result of the Labour party's proposals on industrial relations, jobs would be lost, just as they were under the last Labour Government.
    Dr. Reid: The Secretary of State will be aware that one of the unemployment black spots that he might wish to discuss with the STUC is Lanarkshire. May I therefore, through him, offer cautious congratulations to the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart), on the Lanarkshire working party which has conducted its business with a speed and efficiency that were singularly lacking in regard to the Secretary of State's study on steel? Will he confirm that among the major projects being studied by the working party is a new national sports and football stadium for Scotland? Can he indicate when the working party is likely to report?
    Mr. Lang: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the compliments that he has paid to the working party, which I set up and which I asked my hon. Friend the Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart), the Minister responsible for industry, to supervise, a job which he did so effectively. We look forward to receiving the report of the working party quite soon and we shall react to it as quickly as we can. In the meantime, it would not be sensible for me to guess what may be in the report.
    Sir Hector Monro: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that employment in Scotland is at a very high level, that unemployment has increased very little compared with the rest of the United Kingdom and that the Scottish Enterprise announcement of £430 million to help employment in Scotland, plus the Prime Minister's announcement last week of £15 million for Lanarkshire, will go a long way to help overcome any difficulties caused by the recession?
    Mr. Lang: My hon. Friend is right. At £2·27 million the Scottish civilian work force in employment is at a historically high level. Over the past three years. the Scottish civilian work force has grown faster than the work force in Great Britain as a whole. Indeed, in the three years to December 1990 the Scottish civilian work force grew by 132,000. That is equivalent to 850 per week—a dramatic expansion.
    Mr. Dewar: Does the Secretary of State's silence following the request of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Shettleston (Mr. Marshall) mean that he is still refusing to meet the Glasgow Labour Members to discuss employment? Will he consider that in February, in the Government's public expenditure plans, he predicted that
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    the number of adults entering employment training would fall this year from 47,000 to 30,000? Does he recall that on page 30 of "Serving Scotland's Needs" he claimed that this reflected
    "the fact that, as a result of falling unemployment and improved labour market conditions, demand for Employment Training places continues to decline"?
    As unemployment in Scotland has risen every month since then—a trend which is sadly and disastrously likely to continue—will he explain how he justifies the cuts?
    Mr. Lang: With regard to the hon. Gentleman's request that I should meet the Glasgow Members, I shall certainly be happy to meet them to discuss employment and unemployment. As to the numbers joining training schemes, the hon. Gentleman will know that the number of young school leavers joining training schemes is estimated to fall by 4 per cent. this year. The number of long-term unemployed, for whom employment training is particularly designed, has fallen by 18 per cent. in the year to January 1991, a fall twice as fast in Scotland as elsewhere in the United Kingdom. It is clearly sensible that such changes in the client group for the schemes should be reflected in their planning.
    Mr. Oppenheim: How can we take Labour's protests about unemployment seriously when just over two years ago its union friends sold out workers in Dundee to keep the boys in Dagenham happy?
    Mr. Lang: My hon. Friend is right. I hope that the people of Dundee and the people of Scotland will never forget the dramatic damage to Scotland's inward investment record as a result of the Labour party's activities and especially those of the trade union movement.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We are making rather slow progress. I now propose to proceed more rapidly than we have been doing.

    USSR Markets
    Mr. Wray: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement about Her Majesty's Government's support for the Scottish and Glasgow business community and workers to open the markets of the Soviet republics and union to Scottish goods and services.
    Mr. Allan Stewart: The Government provide a range of services to enable the business community to begin or expand their sales efforts in the Soviet Union. We are very happy to support efforts based on sound commercial judgment.
    Mr. Wray: The Minister will be aware that Glasgow district council is concerned about export credit grants and about the Cabinet's decision possibly to introduce a Bill to privatise the Export Credits Guarantee Department. Are we to have a pathetic apology from the Minister for the state of the Department of Trade and Industry figures which show that in 1979 the total number of insolvencies was 344, but that at the end of 1990 there were 4,756?
    Mr. Stewart: Questions on ECGD cover are properly the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry who has to draw a balance

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    between providing support for project exports and the cost to the taxpayer of doing so. As for the efforts of Glasgow district council, I reassure the hon. Gentleman that the Government try to ensure that Scotland's efforts are properly co-ordinated. The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry is not unwilling to grant consent for international trade promotion activities provided that he is satisfied that the proposals serve Scotland's needs.
    Mr. Hood: Will the Minister assist me in giving advice to a constituent whom I shall be visiting tomorrow? A small business man who paid his value added tax returns four or five days late has been hammered with a £1,200 fine. Is that the type of hounding that we can expect from the Inland Revenue? Does that help the small business community?
    Mr. Stewart: The relationship between the hon. Gentleman's question and trade with the Soviet Union escapes me, but if the hon. Gentleman wishes to discuss a particular case with me or with the relevant Minister, he can do so.

    Service Sector Employment
    Mr. Cran: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland by what amount employment in the service sector increased in Scotland between 1979 and 1988.
    Mr. Allan Stewart: Between June 1979 and June 1988, service sector employment in Scotland grew by 79,000. This was an increase of 6·4 per cent. The service sector makes an important contribution to Scotland's economy and in 1989 accounted for almost two thirds of our gross domestic product.
    Mr. Cran: Does my hon. Friend agree that the figures that he has given illustrate how diversified and resilient the Scottish economy now is? It grew by 2·5 per cent. per year for the seven years to 1988, but by only 1 per cent. per year when Labour was in power. Does he also agree that the pundits who say that manufacturing has been overwhelmed by the service sector are wrong, because the likelihood is that manufacturing output will grow by 4 to 5 per cent. even this year?
    Mr. Stewart: My hon. Friend is right to point to the strength of the service sector in Scotland. Employment in banking, in insurance and in financial and business services increased by about 50 per cent. between 1979 and 1989. Last year total employment in Scotland grew—the only part of the United Kingdom in which that happened—and in the past three years employment in Scotland has risen faster than in the United Kingdom as a whole.

    Council Tax
    Mr. MacDonald: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland on what date he now expects the Government's new council tax to come into effect in Scotland.
    Mr. Lang: Our aim is that the new council tax should come into effect on 1 April 1993.
    Mr. Worthington: The Minister forgot to say that growth in the service sector was slower in Scotland than virtually anywhere else in the United Kingdom. Can he
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    confirm that tomorrow's unemployment figures will show that there are fewer jobs in Scotland now than there were in 1979?
    Mr. Stewart: I cannot, of course, confirm or deny anything about tomorrow's unemployment figures. [Interruption.] Of course I cannot. I can, however, reassure the hon. Gentleman that according to every indicator—including last month's unemployment figures, employment indicators, business forecasts and independent economic forecasts—the Scottish economy is coming through the current economic downturn very much better than most other parts of the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Macdonald: Before the poll tax becomes history, will the Secretary of State finally clear up the confusion surrounding the liability of merchant seamen? Will he confirm that merchant seamen, who are away at sea for long periods, should not have to pay the poll tax while they are away, as they do not consume community services during those periods?
    Mr. Lang: I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern, but he will recognise that it is a matter not for me but for the community charge registration officer.
    Mr. McKelvey: As the Secretary of State has abandoned all his previous thoughts about the poll tax, why does he find it necessary to continue to penalise those poor unfortunates who cannot afford to pay the 20 per cent. minimum?
    Mr. Lang: The hon. Gentleman knows that income support was increased to take account of the liability for the 20 per cent. minimum and also that one of reasons why people on low incomes are in difficulty with their poll tax is that they listened to Labour and Scottish National party Members who urged them not to pay their fair share of local government funding.

    Highlands and Islands
    Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has any plans to meet the chairman of Highlands and Islands Enterprise to discuss transport issues in the context of the development of the highlands and islands economy.
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: My right hon. Friend has no immediate plans to meet the chairman of Highlands and Islands Enterprise to discuss transport issues, though he keeps in close touch with the development of the highlands and islands economy.
    Mr. Wallace: A few moments ago, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston), the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart), gave some comparative EC figures with regard to excise duty on petrol, but omitted to answer my hon. Friend's question about VAT. The Minister was a member of the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs in 1982, when it recognised that one of the contributory factors to high petrol prices in rural areas is the mark-up that garage owners have to apply because of poor throughput. Does he accept that that is exacerbated by VAT and that the Government are benefiting from our disadvantage, and will he consider differential rates of VAT to assist rural areas such as the highlands and islands?
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: I cannot give the hon. Gentleman the assurance for which he asks, but very substantial subsidies are paid, not least on the lifeline ferry services to the islands, from which the hon. Gentleman's constituents benefit. I have given the hon. Gentleman the assurance in the past that we will reconsider the subvention for the Shetlands in the light of the carryings of P and O, which will be of assistance. I am, of course, aware of the representations that the hon. Gentleman has received on that subject, which is relevant to his constituents, and the subsidies will be maintained.
    Mrs. Margaret Ewing: Does the Minister accept that, given the importance of transport issues in the highlands and islands of Scotland, it would be much more efficient to spend money on the infrastructure of our area rather than enabling the Nuclear Industry Radioactive Waste Executive to spend £450 minimum on each test borehole for the disposal of nuclear waste? Is not that a case of the Government having their priorities totally wrong?
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: We are to debate that subject tomorrow. With regard to the transport of nuclear waste, in almost 30 years of flask movement not one incident has occurred which has led to even the smallest amount of radioactivity being released. We are spending a considerable amount on the infrastructure of the highlands and we are funding the approach roads to the Skye bridge at a cost of some £6 million, which is a substantial contribution.
    Mr. Wilson: Why does the Minister give us this line about Nirex? Does he recall being at the Dispatch Box two or three weeks ago, a week before the Secretary of State gave permission for 6,000 test bores in the highlands? Why did the Minister mislead the House—not deliberately, I am sure—on that occasion? Why was not the liaison between Scottish Office Ministers sufficient to ensure that we were told on that occasion that the Secretary of State would overrule what the Minister appeared to be telling the House? Will he confirm that if this goes ahead, there will be 15 train loads of radioactive material trundling through the highlands and much of the rest of Scotland every week? That is a type of highland transport that nobody wants. Will the Minister also comment on the crass hypocrisy of the Secretary of State, who in the early 1980s purported —
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Please withdraw the word "hypocrisy".
    Mr. Wilson: I withdraw it, Mr. Speaker.
    Does the Minister recall the early 1980s, when Mullwharchar was the issue? At that time the then hon. Member for Galloway and Upper Nithsdale (Mr. Lang) led us to believe that he would go to the wall to resist the drilling of nuclear test bores in that part of Scotland. Yet the same man, as Secretary of State for Scotland, has now overruled local democracy in the highlands and islands to enable such drilling to go ahead.
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: The decision that was announced was a quasi-judicial one. There was no prospect of the Secretary of State's issuing it before he was ready. In fact, it was not ready at that time. Of course, the accepted forms laid down in statute have to be followed. Effectively, that was done. We shall go into this matter very thoroughly in the debate tomorrow night. I shall
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    expect to see the hon. Member present, and I shall answer fully all the points that he has raised. What I said in this House was totally consistent with the decision that was later announced.

    Savage Dogs
    Mr. Michael J. Martin: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to protect police officers, postal workers and delivery personnel, from savage dogs kept by some householders; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Allan Stewart: There is already a significant body of legislation dealing with dangerous dogs. The Dangerous Dogs Act 1989, passed with Government support, gives courts powers to impose very stiff penalties on those who do not keep their dogs under control.
    Mr. Martin: The Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals is extremely concerned about the situation that is arising. Pit bull terriers and rottweilers are very numerous in many tenement properties and in some multi-storey flats. Tenants are terrified to go into some lifts, and parents do not like to send their children into the parks, where these animals are let loose. I understand that Strathclyde police officers have been injured because drug dealers are using these dogs as a front line of defence. Surely the Government should introduce legislation to outlaw breeds that are dangerous and have aggression bred into them.
    Mr. Stewart: I am aware of the incidents to which the hon. Member refers and I find them as distressing and regrettable as I am sure the whole House does. However, it is not easy to see how such attacks could be prevented by legislative means. Specific controls over certain breeds would be far from straightforward. However, I should like to reassure the hon. Gentleman with regard to the legislation as it stands. Under the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982, it is an offence for any person to allow a creature in his charge, including a dog, to endanger another person who is in a public place, and the Act empowers a court to order the destruction of the creature.

    Local Enterprise Companies
    Mr. Simon Coombs: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the progress of the local enterprise companies.
    Mr. Allan Stewart: Progress in establishing the local enterprise companies in Scotland has been most encouraging. All are now fully operational, having signed operating contracts with Scottish Enterprise or Highlands and Islands Enterprise.
    Mr. Coombs: Can my hon. Friend tell the House whether the problem exists in Scotland, as it does in England, whereby a number of such new organisations are in danger of reinventing the wheel—that is to say, all tackling the same problems in different ways? Can my hon. Friend suggest to those organisations how they can ensure that best practice in the various tasks that they undertake is shared among them all?
    Mr. Stewart: I cannot comment on whether English organisations are reinventing the wheel, but the Scottish system is different from that in England because it offers

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    true integration of training and economic development functions, which works extremely well. Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise give general guidance to local enterprise companies. I have been impressed—as I am sure that all right hon. and hon. Members have been—by the determination to ensure that the new system works effectively for the people of Scotland.
    Mr. Ernie Ross: Nevertheless, has the Minister studied the report published today by the National Council for Voluntary Organisations, which expresses the same misgivings as are held by voluntary organisations in Scotland—that local enterprise companies and training and enterprise councils are failing to deal adequately with
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    special needs groups? There is particular concern in respect of lost training places. While I am on my feet, may I welcome the recent announcement concerning inward investment for local enterprise companies in my constituency?
    Mr. Stewart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his tribute to Tayside Enterprise, whose announcement will be warmly welcomed by everyone on Tayside. As to the hon. Gentleman's specific question, people with special needs are given priority in youth and employment training. As I explained at Scottish Question Time last month, the new arrangements ensure that those with special needs are treated as a real priority.

Points of Order
3.31 pm
Mr. Tam Dalyell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It has always been a rule of the Table Office—and understandably so—that it does not accept questions about the SAS. However, one read in this morning's newspapers that at a function organised by an Anglo-Israeli business man, Mr. Benjamin Pearl, the Prime Minister made a rather detailed speech about the operation of the special forces. If the Prime Minister can make speeches on sensitive matters, may we take it that Members of Parliament can put down questions about security operations?
Mr. Speaker: I understand that the speech in question was not made in public. However, the answer to the hon. Member's question is that the Table Office will continue to examine questions carefully to ensure that they come within the rules of the House.
Mr. Patrick Nicholls: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that I raised yesterday the question of a document that had been filed in the House of Commons, and to the ruling to which page 196 of "Erskine May" makes reference. I said that we expected to see a copy of the Leader of the Opposition's reply. Clearly, a reply would have been given, since otherwise an insult would be paid to the nation and to the House. However, subsequent inquiries have revealed that only a Minister of the Crown or yourself, Mr. Speaker, has the authority to lodge such a document in the Library. Will you consider whether or not the rules should be amended? The letter having been produced, it is not fair to the Opposition that they are unable to file it in the Library, and that right hon. and hon. Members are prevented from learning its contents. That letter clearly exists—it would be a disgrace if it did not—but a mechanism to allow the Opposition to bring it to the attention of right hon. and hon. Members does not exist.
Mr. Speaker: I must give the hon. Member the same answer that I gave him yesterday. I have no authority to require documents of that kind to be placed in the Library
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—any more than I have the authority to order the speech to which the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) referred to be placed in the Library.
Mr. Jim Sillars: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, arising out of Question Time. Is it sensible and relevant to apply the random selection procedure in respect of Scottish questions? The Under-Secretary responsible for industry pointed out that there were no questions today for the Ministers responsible for education and the health service in Scotland. Such questions may have been tabled, but eliminated by the random selection process. Given the Scottish Office's range of responsibilities, we shall have an opportunity to ask questions on those subjects and others only if the system is altered in respect of Scottish questions.
Mr. Speaker: The Select Committee on Procedure is examining the matter, and I suggest that the hon. Member makes his representations to that Committee, because I am conscious of the fact, particularly on Scottish Questions, that there is a ballot. I think that the House accepts that. I frequently call hon. Members whose questions appear lower down the Order Paper, and, indeed, some hon. Members who do not have questions on the Order Paper at all.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR FRIDAY 14 JUNE
Members successful in the ballot were:

Mr. Dudley Fishburn

Sir Peter Emery

Mr. Gordon McMaster

BILL PRESENTED
  BADGERS (FURTHER PROTECTION)
  Mr. Alan Meale, supported by Mr. Andrew Mitchell, Mr. Tony Banks, Sir Nicholas Bonsor, Mr. Roy Hughes, Mr. Simon Hughes and Sir Charles Morrison, presented a Bill to confer additional powers on a court where a dog has been used in or was present at the commission of certain offences under the Badgers Act 1973: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time on Friday 17 May and to be printed. [Bill 155.]

  Street Furniture (Design and Planning)
  3.35 pm
  Mr. Dudley Fishburn: I beg to move,
  That leave be given to bring in a Bill to co-ordinate the design and planning of street furniture.
  May I suggest that, when hon. Members go home this evening, they look at the streets around them with fresh eyes? What will they see but a forest of clutter? They should count the mass—or mess—of signs, signals, posts, lamps, bins, poles, bus shelters and kiosks that lie along the way. That jungle of metal, concrete and glass has, as so many things do these days, a fancy name—street furniture. That comes, no doubt, from the same mentality that calls a rat catcher a rodent eradication engineer.
  London, like all British cities, is snared in a tangle of metal signs and bossy notices, which sprout from our streets like a forest. London and its suburbs are as polluted by that stuff as by noise or fumes—rather more so, in my estimation. The problem is that so many authorities have the power to put their bit of "furniture" where they like without consulting anybody else. Imagine the effect in your home, Mr. Speaker, if every friend or member of your family were able, without consultation, to put their furniture, lights and wallpaper wherever they wanted. That is what has happened in London's streets.
  The average council has half a dozen different departments erecting poles, lights, parking meters, shelters and so on. British Telecom, the water and gas authorities, the local cable television company and old Uncle Tom Cobbleigh can erect their own signs without a care about where they go or what they are put next to. As each organisation knows that its own bossy notice is more important than anyone else's, it competes to be better placed—right in the way. It is no coincidence that, among the many people who support the Bill, the Royal National Institute for the Blind is one of the foremost. Our streets have become an obstacle course for blind people.
  Not only is there usually no discussion within local authorities, but some companies, such as British Telecom, seem to have no in-house design of their own. Road signs come in every shade of the rainbow, including rust, because, once they are up they are never taken down again. Not only are our streets a clutter, but there is little sense of design. The idea of a street having "a look" has been abandoned to the vandalism of random bits of metal and concrete.
  That work is done not only without planning permission but usually without a word of co-ordination. Other great European cities would never permit such a mess. The American cities teach us that if we do not do something soon, we could get even worse.
  What is to be done? The Bill that I am introducing makes a start. On the day of the public expenditure debate, I reassure the House that my Bill will cost nothing. It is called—I am sorry to say that the rodent eradication engineers have got to Westminster, too—the Street Furniture (Design and Planning) Bill. It would oblige all the statutory bodies which have a right to put their stuff down in our streets to co-ordinate operations between themselves within the context of the local authority.
  First, statutory bodies should get together on design. If they want to have orange and mauve signs in Stoke-on-Trent, let them. But at least let all the signs be in the same orange and mauve and in the same lettering.
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  Local authorities should start to move towards a uniform typeface, a range of accepted colours and a range of standard materials.
  In my constituency, the London borough of Kensington and Chelsea has taken an intelligent lead on the matter. It now co-ordinates within the town hall all decisions on street furniture. No longer does the traffic man go his separate way from the borough engineer. Local authorities should be allowed, even encouraged, to co-ordinate the appearance of our streets in the same way, for example, as the National Trust does of its properties.
  Are lamp posts to be concrete or cast iron? Are pavements to be asphalt or York stone? Often there is a good reason for the concrete or asphalt, but if the decision is made by a competent, named group of people, well and good. My Bill does not seek to replace one form of bossiness with another. Its aim is not to allow local authorities to control things willy-nilly. It seeks to make those who wish to put down street furniture give the local authority 28 days' notice. If in that time the local authority does not indicate that it requires planning permission, the proposals should be allowed to go ahead.
  We could also make progress by something as simple as the sharing of single metal poles. Why should not the parking sign and the no-left-turn sign share the same lamp post? Many bits, including lights, do not need to be on a pole in any case. The Royal National Institute for the Blind is in favour of street furniture such as lights being attached to houses along the sides of the streets rather than to metal poles in the middle of the street.
  Local authorities do not hold all the cards. Therefore, my Bill also seeks to bring the many statutory authorities which have been so successfully privatised not within planning constraints but into the general planning picture in the local authority. British Telecom, British Gas and the cable television people have the right not only to dig up our streets but to put their bits on them afterwards. Under my Bill, they will need permission from the local authority to do so under the provisions of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971. At present, such bodies are exempt.
  The general development order established by that Act spells out what requires planning permission and what does not. By objecting within 28 days, any local authority could bring the planning apparatus into play but, of course, it usually would not seek to.
  My Bill would get around the nonsense by which orange kiosks can be plopped down without so much as a by-your-leave in front of any house in the land. If British Telecom decided to put a phone box outside No. 10 Downing street, there would be no method of preventing it from doing so. Under the general development order, there is no distinction between any ordinary street and conservation areas.
  My Bill would help to encourage tidier streets throughout our cities. It would encourage local authorities to publish a code of practice. As happens in Kensington today, those rules would be established as a result of talking to residents and their associations whose streets are the ones that have to take the clutter. A little local democracy would see many a pole, board or notice come down. People like their streets to look neat. In and around London what we have instead is too often a mess.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Dudley Fishburn, Mr. Matthew Carrington, Mr. Robert G. Hughes, Mr. Richard Tracey, Mr. James Arbuthnot, Mr. Hugo Summerson, Mr. John Bowis and Mr. Andrew Mitchell.

  STREET FURNITURE (DESIGN AND PLANNING)
  Mr. Dudley Fishburn accordingly presented a Bill to co-ordinate the design and planning of street furniture: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time on Friday 14 June and to be printed. [Bill 159.]

  Public Expenditure
  [Relevant documents: First report from the Treasury and Civil Service Committee of session 1990–91 on the 1990 Autumn Statement ( House of Commons Paper No. 41), first special report containing the Government's response ( House of Commons Paper No. 212) and the second report on the 1991 Budget ( House of Commons Paper No. 289), so far as they relate to public expenditure.]
  3.45 pm
  The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. David Mellor):
  I beg to move,
  That this House approves the Government's Expenditure Plans for 1991–92 to 1993–94 (Cm 1501 to 1520); and congratulates the Government on continuing to maintain its medium term objective that public spending should, over time, take a declining share of national income, while value for money is constantly improved and resources are concentrated in areas of high priority.
  Although the documents referred to in the motion were published some time ago—in February—the debate is timely because, in the past few days, we have heard much about the fact that the Opposition want to fight the next general election on the issues of public spending and taxation. That is welcome news, because we can be proud of our record on public expenditure and taxation.
  I am glad to have another opportunity to spell out our achievements on public spending and how we have increased spending in priority areas, while at the same time rooting out inefficiency and getting better value for money, thus keeping public expenditure under firm control. There is a marked contrast between our policies and those of the Opposition, who resist and resent value-for-money concepts in the public service and set out their stall with reckless promises to spend more on just about everything —[Interruption.] I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East (Mr. Brown) is laughing derisively. There will be plenty more for him to laugh derisively about, although he may be unconvincing. However, I am sure that he is grateful for this public recognition—indeed, he is thanking me for it, quite appropriately.
  We are debating the new departmental reports that replace the departmental chapters of the public expenditure White Paper. Their introduction marks the culmination of several years' consultation among the Government, the Public Accounts Select Committee and the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee. I am glad that the luminaries of those Committees are in their place today, and I thank both Committees for their work in seeking to improve the quality of financial reporting to Parliament. I hope that they feel that those departmental reports represent a good step forward in that regard. I know that the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee is holding an inquiry into those new arrangements, and I look forward to seeing the outcome of its deliberations.
  There is much more information in those reports on objectives, output, value for money—all the issues about which taxpayers and their parliamentary representatives will be concerned. They will show them the value they get for their money in terms of effective delivery of high quality services.
  Ten years ago, following the disastrous experiences of the late 1970s, my predecessors had to strive to bring public expenditure, especially the costs of administration,

  287
  under control and to establish the fundamentals for the proper management of the public sector. The main emphasis had to be, first, on reducing the size of the Civil Service, and then on introducing a proper system of controlling costs. At the same time, the financial management initiative signalled the Government's concern to have effective public services.
  Since then, as budgeting and management information systems in Government have improved, both the Treasury and the spending Departments have been able to focus more attention on the quality and effectiveness of public services. The control of public expenditure will always require hard decisions, but those decisions are becoming steadily better informed as Departments prepare and often publish much more information about their services.
  Providing citizens with steadily improving services requires constant attention and initiatives from the Government. That is why I welcome—I hope that the whole House also welcomes—the initiatives proposed by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for a citizen's charter, which will take the reforms of the past decade even further. The principles that have been enunciated are as follows: defining what the public can expect from public services; simplifying access to them; greater responsiveness to consumer needs; performance incentives and penalties for those who fail to deliver; publicly declared standards of services; greater accountability to the customer; and stronger complaints and redress procedures.
  If we all care about public services—that should not be controversial, because we should all do so—we must realise that there is no point in having them unless they offer an effective public service. Perhaps one of the problems that bedevils debates on such issues is that we are all too obsessed with input and do not care enough about output. What matters is what the input produces in terms of effective and good quality public services. We intend to make early progress on fleshing out the proposals and turning them into concrete improvements.
  What Opposition Members say illustrates one of the clearest differences between the Government and the Labour party. We are clear, while it is not, that there is no soft option of simply spending more money to compensate for inefficiency in the delivery of services. In addition, it is not realistic to set ideal targets for levels of service. We must seek to obtain quality of service which is good enough to meet the legitimate expectations of people who, in recent years, have become used to tremendous improvements in the quality and responsiveness of private sector suppliers. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said just two years ago, when he occupied the post of Chief Secretary, "shoddy public services are no longer an option".
  Mr. John Garrett: I have much sympathy with the theory behind what the Minister is propounding and have thought about the subject a lot over the years. However, will he give an example from the documents before us of a single output objective for next year or the year after in terms of the quality of service?
  Mr. Mellor: I know of the hon. Gentleman's work on the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee, and that he is interested in the subject and has worked hard to play
  288
  his part in advancing the discussions. There are commitments throughout the documents. With the 'next steps' agencies, we are committed to the establishment of the employment service and to setting criteria on and targets for the speed and effectiveness with which clients are dealt with. Such issues are at the heart of the 'next steps' approach, which is geared to the establishment of better performance through the establishment of targets and the rigorous monitoring of them.
  Mr. Garrett: It is interesting that the framework documents state how output measures will be calculated, but do not give any such measures.
  Mr. Mellor: I have read the documents, and that is certainly not my recollection of what is contained in them, but I am only too happy to set out the measures in writing. I have had the duty of looking at and giving an opinion on the targets set. I hope that we shall be able to proceed on that—I would welcome the opportunity to do so. Such matters should not be part of a partisan debate; they are about giving a more effective service.
  Mr. William Cash: As ever, I am impressed by my right hon. and learned Friend's insistence that we get quality service and ensure that public expenditure targets do not run away with us. Has he noticed that Mr. Jacques Delors has been saying that he would like substantial increases in the amount of money transferred to other parts of the European Community? That money would have to come from, among other sources, British taxpayers. Does he agree that something must be said to Mr. Delors to disabuse him, and show him that that cannot be allowed to happen and the British Government will stick to the sound policies that they have sustained during the past ten years?
  Mr. Mellor: Mr. Jacques Delors is every bit as much under scrutiny by the Treasury as any Secretary of State in a rampageous spending Ministry. Keeping the public expenditure commitments of the European Community and our contributions to them under control, is a much as priority as keeping domestic expenditure under control. No Department is allowed to feel that Euro-expenditure is a free lunch, allowing it spending arrangements that it would not get through the domestic debate.
  Mr. Nicholas Budgen rose—
  Mr David Winnick rose—
  Mr. Dennis Skinner rose—
  Mr. Mellor: No. I would like to move on, or we shall not get to the part of my speech that I suspect most people have come here to deal with.
  Mr. Frank Haynes: Will the Chief Secretary give way, before he leaves Europe?
  Mr. Mellor: I have left Europe.
  Mr. Haynes rose—
  Mr. Mellor: With the greatest respect, I am ready to proceed with my speech, despite the imploring and fetching body language of the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps I shall give way to him later. I am glad to have aroused some interest in my speech at last. A little earlier I was worried

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  that I was losing people. I am not sure whether the revived interest is due to me or to others, but I shall take the credit for it.
  Concentrating on improved efficiency and value for money has played a vital role in our success in keeping total spending under firm control, as any responsible Government must if they are not to inflict an intolerable burden on taxpayers. In the 1960s and 1970s, public expenditure shot up from about one third of national output to 49 per cent. in the 1970s, and the size of the state and the bureaucracy that went with it grew and grew. It has been a major achievement to have brought public spending down to about 40 per cent. of national output in the 1980s. We remain committed to that approach.
  Mr. Winnick: Will the Chief Secretary give way on that exact point?
  Mr. Mellor: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman's question is on that exact point. We shall see.
  Mr. Winnick: I hope that my question is relevant. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that people are complaining all over the country about the appalling delays and difficulties in transport, health, housing, and about street crime and beggars in the streets? I do not remember begging and street crime in the London area before 1979 being anything like as bad as now. People understand that much of this is the result of underfunding. The gimmicks that the Chief Secretary has been talking about will not resolve those difficulties until more money has been spent.
  Mr. Mellor: Because of our success in achieving eight years of sustained growth at more than 3 per cent. in the 1980s, it has been possible to increase public expenditure by nearly 20 per cent. in real terms while reducing the share of the national cake that it consumes. Public expenditure on all the services that the hon. Gentleman mentioned has substantially increased. Believing that they may be relevant to the debate, I intend to deal with some of these very figures.
  For instance, the hon. Gentleman mentioned law and order. Expenditure on law and order services has doubled in real terms since 1979, and there has been substantial expenditure on motorway building and other such projects, which I shall particularise later. The hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) will also remember that, during his previous sojourn in the House, he sat on the Labour Government Back Benches while dreadful cuts were made in spending on almost everything that he has just mentioned. Was he as outraged then as he is by our record? I have not checked.
  When considering the flurry of charge and countercharge between the parties on public expenditure and taxation, it is always worth consulting the book before looking into the crystal ball. The book shows clear differences between this Government's achievements in the 1980s and those of the Labour Government in the 1970s. Because of the eight years of continuous growth at more than 3 per cent. which our policies made possible, we were able to raise public expenditure—[Interruption.]
  The right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) talks to me about growth and says that Labour's record on growth was better. As he wants to compare growth records, let us do just that. The Labour party says that its growth record is better than ours,
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  despite the fact that we have been the beneficiaries of the windfall of North sea oil. However, the growth in non-oil GDP—taking North sea oil out altogether—was 1·2 per cent. between 1974 and 1979, but between 1979 and 1990 it was 1·9 per cent. That figure should have wider currency, and I am glad that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has given me an opportunity to give it such currency.
  Mr. John Smith: Earlier, the Chief Secretary implied that in the 1980s the Conservatives had a growth record of 3 per cent. Does he recollect that, only a few weeks ago, one of his hon. Friends confirmed that the average rate of economic growth from 1979 to 1991 is 1·75 per cent?
  Mr. Mellor: I have given the right hon. and learned Gentleman the non-oil GDP figures. He wants to be punctilious, so I shall be so. The right hon. and learned Gentleman's problem is his unwillingness to attend to detail, but I shall be happy to travel through the detail with him. I said that there were eight years in the 1980s with continuous growth of over 3 per cent. In order to get the figures on which the right hon. and learned Gentleman relies, he has to credit us in the first two years of one administration with having to recover from the situation into which the Labour Government plunged us. The idea that a Government influence growth from the moment they are elected is nonsense.
  Mrs. Margaret Beckett: Is the Chief Secretary taking responsibility for the first two years of the last Labour Government, 1974 and 1975, when we were cleaning up after the Barber boom and the oil price increase? If he is, there were no recessions at all in the years of that Labour Government.
  Mr. Mellor: No comment on those years excuses what happened thereafter. We remember negotiatiations with the IMF, the sight of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) being heaved off his plane, and the massive cuts in public expenditure that followed. It would be stretching poetic licence to blame those matters on the Government led by my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath). The hon. Lady has tried similarly impossible arguments in the past.
  Mr. Alex Salmond: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Mellor: No; I must press on with my speech.
  Spending under us has risen by 19 per cent. in real terms, while the burden of public expenditure was kept under tight control. That meant that the real-terms increase in general Government expenditure at 1989–90 prices was nearly £34 billion, equivalent to total spending on the national health service. Notwithstanding the priority that Labour rhetoric attaches to it, public expenditure fell by 2·5 per cent. in real terms during the Labour years. Under us, it has increased by 19 per cent.
  We have been able to reduce the basic rate of income tax from 33p to 25p, and in the Budget measures currently being debated in Committee, we propose that next year the rate of corporation tax be reduced to 33p, whereas in 1979 it was 52p. Labour says that tax rates cannot be cut while increasing provision for public services. Our record shows that we can do that and have done it while running honest public finances. Under Labour, the public sector borrowing requirement in 1975–76 was 9·5 per cent. of

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  gross domestic product, equivalent to almost £60 billion at today's prices. The average PSBR in the Labour years at 1989–90 prices was £25·6 billion, or 6·75 per cent. of GDP.
  Over our term in office from 1979 to 1991, the PSBR averaged £6·4 billion, or 1·75 per cent. of GDP. For a period of three years, about £26 billion of Budget surplus was used to reduce the national debt, thereby saving annual interest charges, which have to come out of public expenditure and must take priority over other public expenditure commitments, amounting to £2·5 billion this year. That is the benefit and reward of running prudent public finances.
  Mr. Tam Dalyell: The Chief Secretary is a former Minister for the Arts. Will he acknowledge that at least during the term of a Labour Government Edinburgh university was not reduced to selling its treasures, such as the Audubon book on birds? If matters are as the Chief Secretary makes out, how is it that, in order to find the wherewithal to continue academically, one of the great European universities has to sell its treasures? There is a crisis here. Will the Treasury look at it?
  Mr. Mellor: That assumes a lot about the management which had led to that situation. As far as I know, the problem may not lie at the door of the Government, and the hon. Gentleman, who I know is fair, will realise that I have no detailed knowledge of that, but I shall certainly look at the matter.
  Mr. Skinner That is why my hon. Friend asked the question.
  Mr. Mellor: I am sure that is why he asked the question. Equally, there are aspects of the hon. Gentleman's constituency of which my knowledge might not be great.
  I referred earlier to growth, and I have noted the Labour party's suggestion that a growth rate of 2·5 per cent. under a future Labour Government could be taken for granted. When one considers the non-oil gross domestic product figure that I quoted earlier, I suspect that "it ain't necessarily so".
  The Labour party criticises us for attaching importance to reducing the share of national wealth consumed by public expenditure. Recently, it has seemed to get close to suggesting that every penny raised from future growth should be spent on public expenditure, and that it would otherwise be wasted. That is an astonishing concept, which seems to be coming back into favour in the Labour party just as it has fallen out of favour in eastern Europe.
  Enormous public benefits flow from leaving more resources at the disposal of individuals and companies within a free economy. They stimulate individuals to greater effort, and remove the curse of the brain drain. Another statistic which we should not let slip from our minds is that there was a net outflow of nearly 70,000 professional people and managers during the years of the Labour Government. There has been a 30,000 net inflow under the Conservative Government, and that has led to a greater contribution to income tax from the higher rate payers.
  There is also ample scope for business investment. To listen to the Labour party, one would think that its record on that was something to be proud of and that the Conservative party's record was something of which we
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  should be ashamed. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Labour Members shout, "Hear, hear," so it is just as well that I have come to the House with the record. It shows that, at constant 1985 prices, comparing like with like— —
  Mr. John Smith: The Treasury has been burning the midnight oil.
  Mr. Mellor: The Treasury has indeed been burning the midnight oil. If it were burnt a little more in Transport house, some of the errots that have disfigured the Labour party's figures would not exist. The right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East comes out with more dodgy figures than a weight-watchers' convention.
  At constant 1985 prices, business investment—I shall get to this point by hook or by crook—[Interruption.] I wish to appeal to all sections of my audience. At constant 1985 prices, business investment in 1974 was £35·3 billion. By 1978, after falls in 1975 and 1977, business investment was effectively stagnant at £35·9 billion. The equivalent figure for 1988 was £52·3 billion, for 1989 it was £56·1 billion and for 1990 it was £55·4 billion.
  When Labour points to a decline in business investment in recent months, it will be aware that it is a decline from the historically high levels achieved in the previous two years under the Conservative Government. That represents a tremendous increase in investment from that prevailing in the late 1970s.
  I should also mention our achievements in investment in infrastructure. In 1990–91, total public sector spending on asset creation is expected to be about £30 billion. Under this Government, public sector investment has risen in real terms—I hate having to return to this point, but respect for the truth compels me to do so—[Interruption.] I am glad that hon. Members are still following my argument. Under the Labour Government in the 1970s, investment fell by about a quarter in real terms. That was not a laughing matter then, and it should be a continuing embarrassment to the Labour party.
  Mr. David Blunkett rose—
  Mr. Mellor: I will certainly give way in a moment.
  Earlier, in an intervention, the hon. Member for Walsall, North asked questions about roads and other public expenditure projects. It is tedious to go through them all, but the planned spend on motorways and national roads in the two years between 1991–92 and 1993–94 is 25 per cent. higher in real terms than in the past three years, and that comes after substantial growth in spending under this Government.
  In this financial year, planned spending on motorways and trunk roads is more than double the level of 1979–80 in real terms. Furthermore, under the last Labour Government that investment fell by 40 per cent. If one wants a contrast, that one is as good and effective as any available.
  Mr. Blunkett: Does the Chief Secretary accept that some of the most crucial spending on infrastructure work is undertaken by local authorities—for example, in education, housing, road repairs and the environment? Yet such spending has fallen as a proportion of gross domestic product under the Conservative Government from 3·6 per cent. to 1·8 per cent., which is a scandalous under-investment in our future.
  Mr. Mellor: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that expenditure available to local government has increased under this Government. As he knows, prioritisation has had to take place. One of the major differences between the hon. Gentleman's side of the House and ours is that the Opposition seem to assume that the best way to achieve success in government is for every budget to increase. The answer is that one achieves success by rigorous prioritisation. The problem for the Labour party is that everything is a priority, so one ends up with nothing being a priority, as I shall seek to demonstrate.
  Nothing illustrates more clearly the difference between the record of the parties and the emptiness of a good deal of the rhetoric than the national health service, and I make no apology for mentioning it only one day after the House spent some time debating the issue.
  Mr. John Smith: Watch your step.
  Mr. Mellor: I shall watch it—the right hon. and learned Gentleman will watch it for me, and I know that he will intervene if I get any of these facts wrong.
  Mr. Smith: By hook or by crook.
  Mr. Mellor: Yes, he will intervene by hook or by crook—whether they are hooked figures or crooked figures, he will tell me.
  As I have already said, total expenditure on the national health service has increased from £8 billion to £32 billion—a tremendous increase. Since we took office, the percentage of GDP devoted to health has increased from 4·5 per cent. in 1978–79 to 5·2 per cent., and the share of public expenditure devoted to health as a result of the prioritisation that I mentioned has increased from 12 to 14 per cent.
  Under us, health is the second largest budget. That was not the case under Labour. We have achieved an average real increase of 3·2 per cent. a year and gross capital spending on English hospitals and other health facilities has increased by 53 per cent. To put that achievement in concrete terms, the amount spent every year for each person in the United Kingdom, at constant prices, has risen from £390 in 1979 to £570 today—a massively increased investment for every man, woman and child, in a health service that we certainly recognise as vital for all of us.
  Let us compare that with the record of the last Labour Government.
  Mr. John Battle: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Mellor: I should like to finish this passage and then I shall give way, if the hon. Gentleman wants to take issue with me on the health service.
  In 1977–78 Labour cut real spending on the NHS by 2·5 per cent. It is true that, during their period in office, real spending increased, but it was at less than half the rate that we have managed, and they cut real capital spending by no less than 16 per cent.
  One does not have to travel too far in this country to see evidence of the massive increase in hospital building, renewals and renovations in today's health service.
  Mr. Battle rose— —
  Mr. Mellor: I am still on the subject of the health service. I shall certainly give way; I have not forgotten the hon. Gentleman—I know that he takes an interest in these matters.
  I want to spend a moment or two considering Labour's claims about the future of health service expenditure. The 1979 Labour manifesto called for increases in the percentage of GDP devoted to health—an implicit acceptance that 1974 to 1979 was a period when the Labour Government underfunded the NHS. Apart from the slashing cuts to the hospital building programme, there were also cuts in the pay of national health service employees. Nurses' pay went down by 21 per cent.
  Moving forward to the 1987 election, Labour continued to say that the national health service was underfunded. A point that I hope will not be lost on those on the Opposition Front Bench is that, at that point, the Leader of the Opposition was calling for a 3 per cent. real-terms increase in spending on health. Labour fought the last election on the basis that the underfunding of the NHS would be addressed by a 3 per cent. real terms increase in spending every year.
  Let us look at what has happened in the last five years. We find that this Government have increased spending on health not by 3 per cent. in real terms but by 3·5 per cent. in real terms, yet Labour still says that the NHS is underfunded. What does it propose to do about it? As usual, there is muddle and confusion. At one moment the Leader of the Opposition told the interlocutor-general, Mr Walden, that there will not be an immediate increase. Later, he said that spending on health will rise in line with gross projections of 2·5 per cent. per annum and that it will take its share of the £20 billion crock of gold that he magically conjured up for his audience last Wednesday —"just like that," as the late Tommy Cooper used to say. How much we could do with him now in order to demonstrate the inadequacies of the Labour party's policy.
  What sort of a policy is it? If that policy of a 2·5 per cent. increase in real spending on the NHS had been pursued since 1979, spending this year on the NHS would be £2·6 billion less than it actually is. Therefore, Labour's analysis—that the only problem with the NHS is underfunding and that anything that the Labour party proposes will put it right—is plainly wrong. At every stage, the Labour party proposes a scale of increase that it less than that which we have achieved. An unholy alliance has allegedly built up between the Labour party and the British Medical Association, but did the Labour party rush to say—if I have got this wrong, someone will intervene—that it will immediately given the BMA the £6 billion that it thinks is necessary? Silence is golden when it comes to that line of argument.
  The Government have therefore arrived at the irresistible conclusion that, if we have increased expenditure on the health service by 3·2 per cent., in real terms, every year for more than 12 years—that of itself is not enough to put everything right, although it has led to very major improvements in the NHS—then we must address issues such as organisation, efficiency, better value for money and improved responsibility when it comes to the needs of patients.
  What would the Labour party do about those issues? It has nothing to say about them. Although the Opposition condemn the status quo as inadequate, they suggest no effective alternative policies for change. The hon. Member

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  for Livingston (Mr. Cook) delighted his many admirers in the House yesterday. He is ever so bright-eyed, bushy-tailed and aggressive in the House when these issues are debated, but I want to know when he intends to show similar forthrightness when he talks to the health service unions. When is he going to get them to allow him to outline policies to improve efficiency and effectiveness in the NHS? That is where he should be exercising his formidable strength of character and rhetorical powers. Until he is willing to say boo to the unions' goose, his fiery oratory here will be merely the big boom of an empty drum.
  Mr. John Battle: Why is the proportion of Britain's gross domestic product spent on health less than that spent by the United States, Germany and Italy? As a share of GDP, does the Minister want that amount to increase or decrease? He tells us about output figures, but why will the Government not set targets to bring down increasing waiting lists?
  Mr. Mellor: Is the hon. Gentleman really commending to me the system in the United States, where 10 per cent. of gross domestic product is spent on health care, yet 33 million people are without health cover? That is the spuriousness of international comparisons. The hon. Gentleman falls precisely into the trap that I identified earlier, of confusing input with output. If, when I was Minister of Health, I had obtained £1 billion from the Treasury and had literally burnt it at the Cenotaph, which lies conveniently between the Treasury and the Department of Health, allegedly I would have increased the proportion of GNP devoted to health, and we would have had a better health service. That is the nonsense of it. The whole House should realise that.
  Mr. Patrick Nicholls: Before my right hon. Friend leaves the health service, surely the way to clarify some of the problems in Labour party policy would be to drop a note to the Leader of the Opposition, asking him to clarify the figures. I had it in mind that my right hon. Friend had done so but I have not been able to find a copy of the reply. My right hon. Friend must have received a response; perhaps he would like to tell the House what was in it.
  Mr. Mellor: It may have been posted, but it has not yet arrived, to the best of my knowledge and belief.
  Mr. Salmond rose— —
  Mr. Mellor: I shall not give way; I have to get on.
  I want to deal with last Wednesday and the antics of the Leader of the Opposition about the £20 billion. His speech was heavily trailed. The astonishing thing was that what one learned about it the night before was not built on in the speech itself. The commitment is in four lines on a piece of paper. It does not tell us many things which we have waited a further week to be enlightened upon; we still do not know.
  Was the £20 billion announced in full awareness of the Government's expenditure plans? On the radio on Monday, the shadow Chancellor seemed clear that it was not in addition to the Government's expenditure plans. The Leader of the Opposition yesterday was ridiculing the Government's expenditure plans, saying that they were
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  based on nominal money, not real money, so the Government's expenditure programme did not amount to much. Apparently the right hon. Gentleman is now saying that the £20 billion may be on top. Is it cumulative? Is it £20 billion added up, with little contributions here and there?
  I gather that the shadow Chancellor gave a press conference today at which he talked about £4 billion a year over five years. Or is it the final year cost? The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head. I think that we should be told, if the Opposition are setting themselves out to be credible on these vital public finance issues and to manage their public expenditure as the legacy of previous Labour Governments made clear. There is nothing more fundamental to issues of confidence in Government than that.
  No doubt the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) has come to the House aware of the extraordinary hole in the centre of Labour's mint on the issue and will want to address it at great length. I look forward to being told exactly what the Leader of the Opposition was up to when he said what he did. I do not think that people will understand if we are not told the answer to that question.
  We have published our plans in the Red Book. We will increase spending by £26 billion in cash over the next two years. We plan in cash, not in funny money. In today's money, allowing for inflation, that provides for significant growth in real terms. Everything is set out in the Red Book, including assumptions for growth, inflation and the PSBR. One thing is clear. Labour cannot magic extra public spending painlessly out of growth dividends.
  Of course there will be growth. The record shows that there is more likely to be growth under us than under Labour [Interruption.] Oh, yes. I have given the non-oil GDP figure; let the hon. Gentleman argue with that in due course. As I say, we have taken account of it in our published plans which are on the record for all to see.
  There will be extra spending; that too is on the record. If Labour wants to spend more than that—apparently, despite attempts by the shadow Chancellor to restrain him, the Leader of the Opposition does—it has two simple choices: either it has to put up taxes to pay for it or it has to find the money by allowing the PSBR to stay up, and even go up. If Labour does that, it will go back to the bad old days of the 1970s; the bill would have to be paid, and taxes would have to rise.
  We already know that the chap on £20,000 a year—the deputy head teacher, the police sergeant—[AN HON. MEMBER: "The nurse."]—yes, some senior nurses—and middle management will have their marginal rates increased by 9 per cent. There will have to be tax increases, but the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East has still not told us about the exciting ideas for different bands of tax—between 20 per cent. and 50 per cent.—which would allow many sly increases to the basic rate man. I suspect that, with Labour's expenditure plans in such disarray, the average taxpayer would if Labour were elected, be carried across more thresholds than Elizabeth Taylor or Zsa Zsa Gabor.
  I shall deal with the muddle and confusion into which Labour's public expenditure proposals have been plunged. Aneurin Bevan said that socialism was the language of priorities. In today's Labour party, everything seems to be a priority. In February last year, the hon. Member for Derby, South propounded what I call "Beckett's law", which states that Labour has only two spending priorities

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  —pensions and child benefit. That was a desperate attempt to impose some discipline on the extraordinary range of public spending commitments poured forth by Labour's spokesmen. That was in February 1990, but let us consider the language of priorities since then.
  I begin with the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East. In Blackpool on 1 October 1990, he said:
  "education and training will be a key priority for Labour because they are vital to the success of the economy."
  In February 1990. the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) said on Radio 4:
  "We accept that there have got to be priorities and I can say now that as far as the Labour party is concerned, bridging the skills gap is going to be a priority."
  The right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East proceeded to Leeds yesterday and told the chamber of commerce:
  "The Labour party believes strongly that more rather than less expenditure on developing human capital within the British economy is an urgent priority."
  The hon. Member for Derby, South will no doubt tell us how that fits in with Beckett's law.
  In March 1990, the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East told Tribune:
  "growth and investment in manufacturing should be a key priority"
  and:
  "the Government should directly support growth in manufacturing industries, and in new technology, and in the skill of our people".
  The hon. Member for Cynon Valley, (Mrs. Clwyd) told
  Labour Party News:
  "As Shadow Secretary of State, I want to see Britain reach the UN target of 0·7 per cent. of GNP as a top priority."
  This morning, on Radio 4's "Today" programme, the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) once again said that training would be one of Labour's priorities. Those who heard the interview will know that he repeatedly denied the assertion of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment that he was in any way constrained in saying that by Beckett's law, which appears to have become utterly redundant.
  However, things get worse. Labour's Janus-faced approach to these issues has been exposed. The Opposition Treasury Front Bench team have been on the prawn cocktail circuit in the City reassuring people: "Labour doesn't mean it; we are frightfully responsible these (lays." But all Labour's spending spokesmen have been going around the country spewing out to every interested group that wants to know any number of spending commitments.I only have time for three—[HON. MEMBERS: "More."] There will be time for more.
  Something that must have frightened the Labour party more than anything was a headline in—[HON. MEMBERS: "The Sun."] No, not in The Sun but in The Independent of Friday 10 May 1991. This is a quality debate. The headline stated: "Meacher tells of pension plans". That is enough to send shock waves the length and breadth of the Labour party. In 1987, the verb "to meach" was coined. It means to make extravagant additional commitments hourly. The hon. Gentleman was sat on for that. Some people thought that he was no longer with us when, like something out of "The Munsters", he lurched back into the pages of' The Independent with a whole raft of expenditure plans on pensions—the status of which the hon. Member for Derby, South will tell us all about, no doubt.
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  The principal rival of the hon. Member for Oldham, West in the "meaching" stakes—although it is a hotly contested status in the Labour party these days—is the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott), who leads for the Opposition on transport matters. Labour has a little list of the people who will pay more tax; I have a big list of all the things on which the Opposition say they propose to spend it.
  Let me tell the House just one of the commitments given by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East. By the way, it is not ancient history; it appeared in Hansard on 22 April 1991, and it is well worth listening to:
  "the Government have the overriding"—
  note the use of the word "overriding"—
  "responsibility to see that there is a high-speed rail link from the tunnel not only to London but to areas beyond—the midlands, the north, Wales and Scotland."—[Official Report, 22 April 1991; Vol. 189, c. 760.]
  The issue is not the desirability of the project but its cost and affordability and the priority that it is to be given.
  I want to know what the hon. Member for Derby, South thinks the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East meant by "overriding responsibility". Just so that people should not be tempted to joke about the matter, I should explain that we are not talking about billions of pounds; that pledge would involve tens of billions of pounds. We are not messing around with little numbers here.
  We must get on, and I certainly want to finish my remarks—[HON. MEMBERS: "Shame"]—but I cannot resist ending my speech with a reference to the visit of Mr. Andrew Rawnsley of The Guardian to Monmouth in connection with the by-election campaign. Mr. Rawnsley writes:
  "If much of what Mr. Evans says is gobsmacking, Mr. Edwards"—
  who is, of course, the Labour candidate— —
  "appears to have been gobstoppered. You get the impression that he would not go to the lavatory before checking with Neil Kinnock for permission."
  The House should bear in mind the fact that Mr. Rawnsley was writing in The Guardian. [HON. MEMBERS: "More."] Hang on a minute; we have not even got to the best bit yet. Mr. Rawnsley continued:
  "But it became apparent that when Labour lobotomised this candidate, they did not quite finish his reprogramming. Did he expect Labour to renationalise the water companies? 'Er,… urn … oh,' the candidate said, eyes flashing with panic. 'Yes,' he finally gulped. 'Not on day one,' came a stage whisper from the shadow minister, Ann Taylor. 'Yes,' Mr. Edwards amplified."
  What does all that mean?
  Mrs. Beckett: Not a lot.
  Mr. Mellor: Not a lot—the hon. Lady is absolutely right. To the aficionados of the renationalisation of water—[Interruption.] This is a typical tactic. For the benefit of those geared to the renationalisation of water, a genuflection is made in their direction—"Water will be renationalised." To those concerned about financial probity, "Not a lot," says the hon. Member for Derby, South. To make sense of all this and to avoid getting into a muddle, Labour Members will not have to renationalise water; they will have to walk on it.
  Mrs. Beckett: I have as little faith in my chances of doing that as I do in those of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. My remark referred to the article by Mr. Rawnsley. I do not think that his comments mean

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  anything at all, given that Mr. Rawnsley has made it plain that the Conservative candidate is a gift to the speech writers, whatever he may be to the electorate.
  Mr. Mellor: I can tell the hon. Lady this: our candidate is an estimable man, and one of the main reasons why he is estimable is that he does not make reckless public expenditure commitments.
  Mr. Norman Tebbit: Before my right hon. and learned Friend concludes, I should perhaps tell him that, the other day, I had the pleasure, with my friend the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell), of interviewing the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South—[HON. MEMBERS: "Derby, South."] The hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) was able to tell us more about the Labour party's spending plans for the health service, which appears to be an overall, overriding, key, superior, first-class, top priority—as opposed to an ordinary priority. She explained that Labour would abide by the commitment to increase the pay of all lower-paid staff to at least half—I think that this is the terminology—the median pay of an industrial worker. This, she thought, would have no effect on differentials. None the less, all health service pay would be fully funded, and the commitment to increase spending on the health service was additional. Apparently, these commitments to extra spending relate only to patient care, and pay is on top of that. My right hon. and learned Friend can add that to his impressive list.
  Mr. Mellor: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. The spotlight is being shone on Labour's expenditure plans, and the Opposition Front-Bench Treasury spokesmen are finding it impossible, as the water gushes over the feeble dam that they have erected, to maintain—that they are responsible. That is demonstrated by every single statement about spending priorities, and it will be a key issue for the future.
  I am sure that the hon. Lady will have answers to all these questions, so the best thing I can do is make way for her. The contrast between the Government plans that we are debating today—carefully prioritised, sustainable and targeted where spending is needed most—and the cloud-cuckoo-land ambitions and total incoherence of the Opposition's plans is striking and dramatic. It is on that basis that I commend these reports to the House.
  Mr. Phillip Oppenheim: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order to point out that, despite the fact that this is a vitally important debate, the Opposition have managed to muster only 10 Back Benchers and a dog—and the dog is worth more than the rest of them put together. This poor attendance is despite the fact that public spending is what Opposition Members are meant to be good at.
  4.36 pm
  Mrs. Margaret Beckett: I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
  "regrets the continued decline of the public services under this Government; regrets the Government's refusal to provide a proper level of support for the United Kingdom's manufacturing base and for the provision of training; and furthermore condems this Government's clear intention to
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  learn nothing from the recession into which this neglect has plunged the country, and to continue to put tax cuts before public investment".
  I am most impressed by the Conservative turnout to support the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. I had no idea that he needed such support. My hon. Friends are working very hard in Monmouth to ensure that the Government's public spending plans are carefully scrutinised.
  Mr. Battle: Where was the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Mr. Oppenheim) yesterday?
  Mr. Oppenheim: I was here.
  Mr. Battle: He was not.
  Mrs. Beckett: I am disinclined to take attendance lectures from the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Mr. Oppenheim), whose attendance record is far from good.
  Mr. Richard Tracey: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Lady has just told the House that her hon. Friends are canvassing in Monmouth. Is it not a fact that they are paid to be in the House of Commons? [Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean): Order. Let us get on with the debate.
  Mrs. Beckett: By tomorrow, there may be another Opposition Member paid to be in the House of Commons.
  This debate, entertaining though its tone has been, is meant to be a review of the record and intentions of the Government's spending programme, in the pretty dim light cast on them by the publication of the departmental reports as a follow-up to the broad predictions of the autumn statement. In the House today, as on television at the weekend, the Chief Secretary asked, "Why look in the crystal ball when you can read the book?", serenely unaware, evidently, that in all too many state schools these days the problem is first to find the book. What he meant, of course, was unexceptionable. He meant that we should look at the facts, the evidence, and not just what is written in the departmental reports, or the autumn statement, or the autumn statement supplement, or, indeed, the Red Book. He wants us to look at what is written in those books, but also at the facts of the vast improvements that he claims have occurred in public services.
  This debate is bedevilled by two factors. The first is the Government's determination to be all things to all people and to face both ways at once. Perhaps even more serious is their terror of finding themselves trapped into rational debate about the choices that confront this country in the years ahead. The first factor has led the Government—in their determination to please all audiences—into the ludicrous position of boasting to Tories how they have kept public spending down, and to the electorate that they have increased it. The Chief Secretary was at it again today.
  The Government's terror of admitting that there could ever be any merit in anything that Labour says has put them into an even more extraordinary position. They claim to detect wild extravagance in our proposals, and then—sometimes on the same day—they condemn us for proposing to spend less than they would have done.
  Mr. Skinner: They did that today.
  Mrs. Beckett: As my hon. Friend says, the Chief Secretary managed to do both in his speech today.

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  To support their case, such as it is, the Government fling about different and fairly meaningless statements and figures. It is hardly any wonder that the phrases "creative accounting" and "being economical with the truth" both came into common usage under the present Government.
  Let us look first at what the spending plans show. There are wild variations in the Government's cash figures. The Chief Secretary did not refer to them with such gusto today, but there has been mention of £26 billion here and £40 billion there—all in cash terms. However, between the public expenditure White Paper published in February 1990 and last November's autumn statement, there was a leap in the planning totals for the current year of £9 billion in cash terms, and for next year, of £11·6 billion.
  It is for that reason that more interesting and relevant are the spending figures in real terms when inflation is taken into account. What they indicate is that despite the figures of £26 billion and £40 billion that the Chief Secretary quoted for different periods the planning totals have changed very little since 1985.
  In presenting his autumn statement last November, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer said:
  "Since 1984–85, while the economy has grown by nearly 20 per cent., total public spending has risen scarcely at all in real terms."—[Official Report, 8 November 1990; Vol. 180, c. 117.]
  That means that, even in 1988–89, during the boom years to which the Chief Secretary referred—they seem to be the only years 'to which he wanted to refer—public service investment at best stood still. The departmental figures show that in the three years ahead covered by the current plan, there will be either a standstill or a decline in real terms in the budgets of the Departments responsible for industry, employment, transport, housing, education, and overseas aid.
  That picture is borne out by what little clear information we can glean from the departmental reports. Support for industry has been halved since 1978–79, and is due to fall still further, until it is one third of the level that the Government inherited. Since 1985, the industry budget has been cut from more than £2,000 million to a planned £730 million for 1993–94. That means a cut in collaborative research and development, technology transfer, consultancy budgets, and regional and export support. That is even before the Government implement their insane plan to sell off the Export Credits Guarantee Department, even if the only people who will buy it are our competitors.
  Mr. Tim Smith: I refer the hon. Lady to the table on page 26 of the "Autumn Statement", which details public spending in real terms over the past 25 years. In 1974–75, that figure had reached £180 billion, but by 1978–79, it had fallen by £5 billion to £175 billion. That is Labour's record. Since then, public spending has risen to £209 billion in the current year. If we want a real indication of what would be likely to happen in the event of a Labour Government, perhaps we should consider that party's past record.
  Mrs. Beckett: It will take me a few moments to find the table to which the hon. Gentleman referred, but his remarks do not in any way controvert the point that I was making. As the Chief Secretary was kind enough to remind the House, while the Government enjoyed all the benefits of North sea oil and what have been described as the miracle years of growth, public spending stood still—and only now is it forecast that it will possibly rise.
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  As to training, an even more extraordinary picture emerges in the present period of recession. There is a real-terms cut in employment and training programmes of £365 million, of which £120 million was quietly restored recently—still leaving a net cut of £245 million. That was also the picture last year. Then, the Government asserted that it was perfectly all right for training investment to fall because unemployment was falling. In itself, that was a dishonest argument, because not only was the overall figure falling in real terms, but there was a cut in training per head—including support not only for the young and long-term unemployed but for those suffering from disabilities.
  This year—with unemployment undoubtedly soaring —we should surely expect employment and training budgets to rise. Certainly not. The budget continues to be cut, but now the Government have a new excuse. This year, cuts are being made not because of falling unemployment, but because, to quote the Department's document,
  "Training is not always the best way of getting the long-term unemployed back to work. For the long-term unemployed, the Department has reviewed existing programmes and expanded employment services."
  The impression is given that, although training provision is being cut, other efforts are being expanded. There are two things wrong with that assertion. Cash cuts in training for the unemployed this year total £597 million. Cash increases in the other employment services that are to be provided total just £36 million—representing a net cash cut of £560 million.
  Also revealing is the change in the content of the Department's report. Those right hon. and hon. Members who are familiar with these debates may recall that in 1989, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) drew attention to a helpful chart in the transport document, which distinguished between roads that had been improved and those that had deteriorated—and which presented a very bad picture. By 1990, that helpful little diagram no longer appeared in the relevant document.
  Last year, I pointed out that a table in the relevant document showed an overall cut not only in training but in the training budget per head. Guess what? That helpful table is not included in this year's document either. That puts the House in a dilemma, and perhaps we may look to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, or to someone else, to assist us. How can we continue to sustain such debates over the years if, every time that we cite useful pieces of information, they disappear?
  The Government's programme also includes a provision of £60 million to help the elderly with private health insurance, and £300 million for reforms that are being implemented without pilot projects being undertaken, and within a time scale that will probably mean that much of that money will be wasted. The budget for city technology colleges is on much the same scale as all the money that the Government are making available for the rest of the nation's schools.
  It was strange that the Chief Secretary referred in his television interview on Sunday to the waste of surplus school places. Six hundred surplus places in secondary education exist in my own city of Derby, because, despite efficient tertiary reorganisation, approved by the Department of Education, it is not always easy to match exactly numbers of pupil places. However, the

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  Government are proposing to add another 900 to those existing 600 surplus places, by opening a city technology college in Derby. That would seem to make likely the closure of another school—but it is unlikely that such a closure will go ahead.
  One of the main reasons for the surplus places is the Government's opt-out programme. Even when a school is opting out only because the local authority, obeying the Department of Education and Science, wishes to remove surplus places, the Department is likely to approve the opting out. It was incredible that the Chief Secretary complained about that waste of public money—which it is —when it is the Government who have made it impossible for economies to be made.
  Mr. Winnick: The Chief Secretary was characteristically delighted with himself and made some funny jokes—or that is what he intended—but does my hon. Friend agree that in the real world, such as in Derby, Monmouth and many other places where by-elections and local elections have been held, people are fed up with the delays, difficulties and cuts to which she referred? Although the Chief Secretary was able to persuade about 30 Conservative Back Benchers who listened to his speech, he seems unable to convince the country, including Monmouth.
  Mrs. Beckett: My hon. Friend is right.
  Apart from the opt-out scheme, there are various black holes in the Government's spending plans into which about £6 billion net of public expenditure will have disappeared, such as personal pensions and the £10 billion or more that was spent on the poll tax, for which not a single extra teacher, home help, caretaker, firefighter or police officer has been provided.
  Mr. Ian Taylor: The hon. Lady is obviously concerned about education. Will she explain to teachers who are earning more than the basic wage how she will compensate them for removing the upper limit on national insurance, or is that yet another expenditure pledge that the Labour party will fail to meet?
  Mrs. Beckett: If the hon. Gentleman will wait, I shall deal with that matter later.
  Mr. Charles Wardle: Will the hon. Lady acknowledge that the Red Book forecasts an increase in public spending of £38 billion in cash terms over the next three years? To avoid keeping the House in suspense any longer, will she solve the mystery to which my right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary alluded? Is the Leader of the Opposition's promise of an extra £20 billion over the lifetime of a Parliament in addition to or instead of that £38 billion, or does she not know?
  Mrs. Beckett: Only Conservative Members could make a mystery out of that. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I shall deal with that point, too. [Interruption.] If I were a Conservative Member, I would not laugh quite so heartily. I am prepared to answer those questions when I reach the logical point in my speech. [Interruption.] I am not in the slightest concerned about Conservative Members.
  Whatever may be obscure, hidden or difficult to find in the Government's plans, one thing is crystal clear: the Labour party is saying that we will not spend more than
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  the economy can afford but that we will put every penny that the economy can afford into investment and public services.
  The Government's record and their forecasts show a consistent but completely different picture. From 1982–83 to last year, the trend has been of steady decline in the proportion of our wealth spent on public services. Plans for the coming year—there is a helpful table in the Red Book—show that, although there has been a temporary rise because of the recession, the Government intend that the proportion of our national wealth spent in the public sector should begin to fall again as early as next year.
  The Government are not prepared to put as much as the economy can afford into such investment and services in the future any more than they were prepared to do in the past. They are still making the same choice, to which the Chancellor has often referred. He said in his speech the other day at the Adam Smith Institute:
  "I occasionally read in the press that this Government has gone soft on public spending. That is complete nonsense."
  That is not the message that the Chief Secretary was trying to convey today. The Chancellor continued:
  "the need to reduce the size of the public sector remain at the top of the Government's agenda. It is only by keeping spending under control that we will be able to deliver the income tax cuts to which we are committed."
  There could be no clearer statement of the choice that the Government wish to make.
  The Labour party argues that the extra resources that the Government have earmarked for tax cuts should go into public spending.
  Mr. A. J. Beith: Has the hon. Lady taken careful note that the Government's expenditure plans for the next five years would not permit them to achieve the reduction in income tax to 20p in the pound, to which they have often referred? The electorate should not believe them, and the hon. Lady should not build her spending plans on them.
  Mrs. Beckett: I would not dream of building anything on the figures published in the Government's documents. The hon. Gentleman is correct, but he assumes that the figures given by the Government for their spending programme mean very much. I shall return to that point.
  The Labour party has identified the fact that, in many respects, we would make different choices from those made by the Government of which the city technology college programme is an example. We believe that such money would be better diverted to nursery education, which would benefit a greater section of the community. We have identified ways in which the Government waste money, such as on the poll tax. We have identified the fact that there are revenues from growth in any normal year and that we would use all of them.
  We have stated without equivocation the tax changes that we propose, of which the principal measures are the increase in the top rate of tax to 50p in the pound, not at the threshold where the present top rate applies, although even that affects about only 6 per cent. of the population, but on a slice of income well above the band at which the top rate applies—in practice at a minimum of £27,000. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where and when?"]
  Conservative Members ask where and when that rate would apply. I shall remind them of an exchange in the House last year. My right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) asked the then deputy Prime Minister, the right hon. and learned Member

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  for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe)—sadly, he is no longer in that capacity—to explain the income tax proposals that would be in the next Budget. The right hon. and learned Gentleman replied:
  "In all the questions asked by shadow spokesmen over many years that one beats all records for stupidity. One matter that Chancellors of the Exchequor like, properly, to reserve to their Budget statement is the level at which Income tax will be fixed". [Official Report, 7 June 1990; Vol. 173, c. 784.]
  He also referred to bands, rates and so on. [Interruption.]
  I would not dream of saying to Conservative Members who are shouting that that is the most stupid question that I have ever heard in the House; I am content to rest on the words of the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East.
  Mr. Michael Brown rose— —
  Mr. Robert G. Hughes rose— —
  Mr. Andrew Mitchell rose— —
  Mrs. Beckett: I do not see any hon. Member who usually makes a serious contribution to these debates. They only want to make silly points, so I do not propose to give way to them.
  The Labour party has made it clear many times that the top rate of tax will be charged at 50p in the pound. [Interruption.] Conservative Members should want this on the record. It will be charged at 50p in the pound at a level of income well above the present rate at which 40p is charged. [Interruption.] That is all I am prepared to say.
  Mr. Michael Brown: Above £25,000?
  Mrs. Beckett: The hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) is showing his ignorance. The top rate of tax cannot apply now to incomes below £27,000, and he is saying £25,000. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about the police?"] I shall deal with policemen in a moment; Conservative Members should not be so impatient.
  The Labour party has said clearly that it will lift the ceiling on national insurance contributions. That change, and the introduction of a 50p in the pound rate of tax, will cover the specific spending pledges that we have made on pensions and on child benefit—an increase of £5 for a single pensioner and of £8 for a married couple, arid the full increase of child benefit to £9·55 per child.
  Mr. James Arbuthnot: Will the hon. Lady give way?
  Mrs. Beckett: No. I must move on a little further in my speech. If the hon. Gentleman does not mind.
  On the programme side—
  Mr. Ian Taylor: What about the police?
  Mrs. Beckett: I am coming to that later in my speech. If the hon. Gentleman will be kind enough to bear with me, and—unlike the hon. Member for Lancaster (Dame E. Kellett-Bowman) who was calling out earlier—stay for the rest of my speech, I shall address the point that he raises.
  I want to set the picture in context. The overall picture includes tax and national insurance changes, pensions and child benefit increases and following that, on the programme side, priorities for investment such as training and education. The Chief Secretary managed on five
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  separate occasions to say in different ways that we have a commitment to make training a priority. That has never been a secret.
  On education, we are saying that it is more than time that the percentage of our national wealth devoted to education should begin to increase again, having declined under the Government.
  Beyond those early priorities, and by as much as the economy can reasonably afford, we shall address the issues of underfunding that we recognise, for example, in the national health service. A great distance arises between ourselves and the Government on the national health service. We recognise that there is certainly an element of underfunding in the national health service, as there is in the education service. In the face of all the evidence, the Government continue to deny that any problem exists.
  That brings us back to the many extremely foolish comments made in public by Conservative Members. Incidentally, they are not the same as the comments that they make in private. Secretaries of State continually stop me and complain that they cannot get my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition to make extravagant spending commitments.
  I return to the point that I was about to make about the balance between our spending proposals and our overall approach to public spending. The Government's problem —it is a serious problem and I understand it—is that they find it impossible to attack what we are saying, which is straightforward and sensible—[Interruption.] They are reduced, with increasing desperation and implausibility, to inventing what they would prefer us to be saying and attacking that instead.
  I now come to the point made by the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) about what the Government's spending plans indicate. As the hon. Gentleman said, when an election is approaching the Government always say that they will ease up on public spending. In 1983, they had a pre-election spending boom. In July 1983, after the election, they had to have an extra Budget in which the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson), announced that spending had got out of hand and had to be reined back. It took until 1985–86 for the Government to attain that goal.
  In 1987 the Government realised that the same trick would not work twice, so they tried a new one. They did not have a pre-election boom in spending, but by a remarkable coincidence, they had a pre-election forecast of increases to come. As the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed has already identified, that is precisely what the Government are doing in this year's autumn spending statement. But what happened when the election was safely over? The forecast for 1987 and the subsequent years was an increase in public spending in cash and in real terms. I have no doubt that the Chief Secretary of the day defended that in just the same terms as the present Chief Secretary used today.
  Once the election was safely over in 1987, there was a cash increase, I admit. But there was a real-terms fall in public spending in the first year of almost £1 billion. In the second year of the plans, where the forecast before the election had been for a real-terms increase of £3 billion, there was a real-terms cut in public spending of £9 billion. That was a turnround of £12 billion in real terms once the

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  election was safely out of the way. The Chief Secretary wonders why we doubt the figures in this year's autumn statement.
  In these debates, we find ourselves in the position of a new board that has just completed a takeover deal, or almost done so. We know that we are inheriting a mess. We know that the accounts are extremely dodgy, but we do not know exactly where and how the bodies are buried and how great the difficulties are. In those difficult circumstances, some idiot keeps asking us what dividend we will declare at the end of the first year. That is the position in which Conservative Members are putting themselves.
  We have already said more and been more honest than the Government, who have a history of obfuscation and deceit. In this debate on public spending, they began by trying to claim that we could not do anything at all without raising the basic rate of tax. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury did so and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury did so. We cannot mention tuppence ha'penny of expenditure without someone saying, "How much will that put on the basic rate of tax?" The insistence that one cannot do anything without raising the basic rate of tax is a lie which we have nailed. That is exactly the point which the Leader of the Opposition, my right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Mr. Kinnock) addressed in a speech which was extremely clear. He said bluntly and specifically that, in any normal year, revenues accrue from growth in real terms.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Francis Maude): Will the hon. Lady give way?
  Mrs. Beckett: Not for a second. Only a moment ago, Conservative Members were asking me to answer the point. I am doing so.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn also said that a moderate estimate of the increase that would accrue with 2·5 per cent. growth over five years was about £20 billion. Conservative Members will know that several commentators have estimated that it would be more. However, we wish to be moderate in our observations. My right hon. Friend made it plain that, if one obtains 2·5 per cent. growth in real terms over five years, one obtains revenues of about £20 billion without a ha'penny going on the basic rate of tax. That is the point. If there is less growth, the revenues are smaller. If there is more growth, the revenues are greater.
  Mr. Maude: Will the hon. Lady give way?
  Mrs. Beckett: Sit down. I shall not give way for a second. The Minister has been sitting there harassing, sneering, making a noise and demanding that I answer the point. Now he can wait and let me do it.
  Mr. Maude rose— —
  Sir David Mitchell: Will the hon. Lady give way?
  Mrs. Beckett: No, not until I have finished the point. I must put this clearly on the record. Conservative Members obviously do not wish me to put it on the record.
  It is clear from what my right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn said and it is indisputable—indeed, as The Independent said, it is "unexceptional"—that, with grow
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  at that the level of 2·5 per cent., revenues accrue without raising income tax. The Conservative party has tried to propagate the lie that revenue cannot be increased without increasing income tax. That lie has been nailed.
  Mr. Maude: Will the hon. Lady tell the House of any Labour Government in history who have not raised the basic rate of income tax?
  Mrs. Beckett: If we are to be the first Labour Government not to do so, we shall be. [Interruption.] The previous Labour Government cut the rate of tax. I have not checked back through the records to see whether there is any accuracy in the Minister's insinuation, but if there is, it will make a change. I shall come to the Minister's accuracy in a moment.
  I repeat the point that I have made. Conservative Members seek to say that one cannot have revenues unless one raises the basic rate of income tax. That is a lie. They know it and it will be a lie no matter how many times they repeat it.
  Sir David Mitchell: What happens to the hon. Lady's expenditure plans if her taxation plans kill growth? When she has increased taxes and killed growth, how will she finance expenditure?
  Mrs. Beckett: I shall come to what happens to growth in a few minutes, if the hon. Gentleman will allow me. [Interruption.] I shall come to the point immediately.
  When Conservative Members had failed to justify the argument that one cannot increase spending without increasing taxes, we then went through the farce of their claims that one obtains growth sometimes, but not under Labour Governments. Indeed, the point that the hon. Member for Hampshire, North-West (Sir D. Mitchell) has just made ties in with that. He implied, as the Minister did, that because Labour Governments have sometimes raised taxes, they do not achieve growth.
  I have here the figures for gross domestic product—[Interruption.] [HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] I am sure that Conservative Members are anxious to hear this because they have been asking for these figures for some time.
  I have the figures for the gross domestic product, at constant 1985 prices, for the past 43 years. They show a fall in GDP in real terms in only five of those years. The first was in 1973–74, when we shared office with the Conservative Government; the second was in 1975, when we were in office, but, according to the arguments of the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, that makes no difference because the first two years do not count. The third occasion was in 1980. Perhaps we shall take half the blame for that, as the Minister gives us the first two years of the 1974–75 figure. The fourth occasion was 1981 and the fifth was 1991.
  Whatever happened to rates of tax or other parts of the economy, Conservative Members must know that those are the facts. It is not only untrue but pathetically untrue to try to pretend, as they have done recently with ever-increasing volume, as the quality of their argument has deteriorated, that there has never been growth under a Labour Government. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who boasted about how he checks his figures, was the first to make that statement, but it is not true. When he first said it, I made the charitable assumption that he had been caught on the hop, had come out with a smart

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  remark and had realised subsequently that it was nonsense. That could happen to anyone but it seems to happen to him more than most.
  However, the Prime Minister was not caught on the hop when he said, on 9 May:
  "The reality is that the Labour party would never deliver any growth whatsoever to fund increased public expenditure. It never has and never would".—[Official Report, 9 May 1991; Vol. 190, c. 820.]
  The Prime Minister was certainly not speaking off the cuff, yet his remarks were totally untrue.
  Mr. Oppenheim: Will the hon. Lady give way?
  Mrs. Beckett: No, there is nothing on which to give way, because the facts are plain. There has been as much growth under Labour Governments as under Tory ones.
  Mr. Oppenheim rose— —
  Hon. Members: Sit down.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady has made it clear that she is not giving way at the moment.
  Mrs. Beckett: The figures show that, under the last Labour Government, for example, on whom an oil price increase was inflicted from outside these shores, which quadrupled oil prices without increasing revenues from oil, the average rate of growth was 2 per cent. Under this Government, taking the whole period and not the periods that they choose to select, growth is 1·75 per cent. So they are in no position to criticise us.
  Conservative Members keep attacking the Labour party's position and saying that we are being less than honest.
  Mr. Roger Knapman: Will the hon. Lady give way on the subject of water?
  Mrs. Beckett: No.
  On the subject of honest accounting, I invite honest John Major to step forward. On Wednesday, 23 May 1990, he was set on by the then Chancellor of the Duchy because he was attacking Labour's spending plans. An unkind and improperly briefed journalist then asked the thenChancellor of the Exchequer—the right hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major)—about his taxation spending plans. The Independent of that date said:
  "Mr. Major declined to pledge that the Tories would not abolish the married man's allowance, or to put a date on reducing basic rate tax to 20p."
  In July 1990, the then Chancellor said to the Welsh Conservative party:
  "Let me give you a flavour"
  of some of these terrible Labour pledges.
  "They intend to freeze the married couple's allowance. That would make all married couples in this country, 24 million people, worse off."
  In March 1991, the Chancellor said:
  "I am not proposing to increase the married couple's allowance for couples under 65 or the allowances that are linked to it."—[ Official Report, 19, March 1991; Vol. 188, c. 179]
  So much for honest John on the married couple's allowance.
  In July 1990, the same honest John attacked the Labour party for its proposal to
  "meddle with mortgage interest relief"—
  by which he meant our intention not to allow extra relief above the basic rate of VAT.
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  On the Frost programme in January 1991, Mr. Frost said, in a straightforward manner, that mortgage interest relief had been safe in the hands of the previous Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs.Thatcher)
  "even with higher rate taxpayers".
  He then asked:
  "Is it safe in your hands …?"
  The present Prime Minister answered:
  "The matters you're moving into now, and I can give you very clear answers, but you're moving now into matters that are budgetary matters, but we have no plans to change … what happened in the past, but I can't give you guarantees about this or any other matter. That is not to indicate that there are going to be changes … I can't give you guarantees about that anymore than anyone else could."
  Mr. Frost then summed up the Prime Minister's reply as:
  "Right, no guarantees but at the moment, as of now, we have no plans to change that",
  and the Prime Minister said "That is correct".
  In March 1991, in his Budget statement, the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed that mortgage interest relief
  "should be allowed only at the basic rate."—[Official Report, 19 March 1991; Vol. 188, c. 178.]
  So much for the honesty and frankness of the Conservative party in putting its plans before the country.
  Mr. Quentin Davies: Will the hon. Lady give way?
  Mrs. Beckett: No, I shall not give way.
  The Conservative party has made much of our plans for the top rate of tax, and 50p is well above the current top rate. I shall repeat the figures, because the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) does not seem to be very well informed. He thinks that the top rate of tax applies at £25,000. The current top rate of tax of 40p in the pound affects 6·5 per cent. of taxpayers and does not apply in practice to incomes below £27,000. That is for a single person with only one personal allowance and no mortgage. Beyond that, those with a married couple's allowance or a mortgage will probably pay the present top rate at £30,000 or more.
  The right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East said that only an idiot would try to ask any Chancellor or shadow Chancellor to say what the rates and bands of the tax system should be. I rest content with the right hon. Gentleman's judgment.
  Mr. Michael Brown: Will the hon. Lady give way?
  Mrs. Beckett: No, I shall not.
  Conservative Members suggest that the combination of national insurance and top rate tax changes would be damaging and would cause a brain drain, with middle management fleeing the country. If that is true, why are they all still here? Why did they not leave the country before 1988? They were paying 60p in the pound until mid-1988. Under a Labour Government, some—not as many—would be paying perhaps 59p in the pound.
  The hon. Member for Esher (Mr. Taylor) is keen for me to talk about national insurance contributions, and I am happy to do so. He asked about the impact of national insurance contributions on teachers.
  Mr. Quentin Davies: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Lady keeps asking questions and when we attempt to answer them she will not give way—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady has made it clear that she is not giving way. The hon. Gentleman should try to catch my eye later.
  Mrs. Beckett: The ceiling of national insurance contributions for teachers is £20,300. The average salary for teachers in primary education is £16,279 and the average salary for teachers in secondary education is £17,166.
  Between 10 and 15 per cent. of teachers at most would be affected by the change in national insurance contributions. It is impossible to assess exactly how many would be affected because they would be affected only if they received either London or incentive allowances, or both. Most of the people who will rise above the ceiling when they receive those allowances are in groups just above the national insurance contribution ceiling so the effects on them are small. An article in the Daily Mail said that the change would be a disincentive and great blow for somone earning slightly above the ceiling, but the loss for the example they gave would be about £50 or £60 a year, which is less than the cost of buying the Daily Mail for a year.
  Mr. Ian Taylor: Many teachers in my constituency will be fascinated by that answer, because they are highly qualified teachers—some of them are even headmistresses. They will notice that the Labour party's plans to remove the upper limit on national insurance will cost them several hundred pounds at the levels they earn. If the hon. Lady believes that that is an isolated incident in the south—east, she should look closely at teachers right across the country who will be similarly affected. Some 2·11 million basic rate tax payers in this country will be savagely impacted by what the hon. Lady proposes for the upper rate national insurance.
  Mrs. Beckett: That was a lot of huffing and puffing, but it does not alter the fact that the figures on schoolteachers show that, on average, their salaries are £16,000 for those in primary education and £17,000 for those in secondary education. Some teachers, but not very many, will be affected by lifting the national insurance contribution ceiling.
  Mr. Andrew Mitchell: Will the hon. Lady give way?
  Mrs. Beckett: Just a moment.
  We have never denied that some teachers will be affected; nor have we tried—unlike Conservative Members—to conceal from them the impact that the changes will have. We want teachers to know what a Labour Government would propose and we want them to know where the money will go. Many of the teachers whose income is near the ceiling and will rise above it, will be net gainers from the switch from national insurance contributions when the sum is pooled into child benefit —another fact that the hon. Member for Esher forgot. A small number of teachers will be affected, and only if they receive incentives.
  Mr. Knapman: Will the hon. Lady give way?
  Mrs. Beckett: I want to finish this point, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman eventually.
  Conservative Members also mentioned nurses. I do not know why they bother with all this fuss because we know —they must know in their heart of hearts—that only a small number of people in those employment categories
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  will be affected. I do not know who Conservative Members think that they are conning. When the people who work in teaching, nursing and the groups that Conservative Members mentioned, hear the figures, they think, "I do not earn that—what on earth are they on about?" There is no point in Conservative Members trying to deceive people.
  A typical staff nurse earns between £10,000 and £15,600 a year—no more than 3 per cent. of all nurses, even including London weighting, could possibly be affected by the abolition of the ceiling. About 12 per cent. of police officers—the other group mentioned—might possibly be affected by the abolition. Most ordinary police officers would not be affected by the change.
  The hon. Member for Stamford and Spalding (Mr. Davies) accused me of asking rhetorical questions. I do not recall asking Conservative Members any questions at all, but I shall ask them one now. Why should a police constable pay national insurance contributions on his earnings, while his superior—a police inspector or police sergeant—does not? What is right or just about that? Will Conservative Members defend that?
  Mr. Tim Smith: I am astonished that the hon. Lady does not understand the answer to that. We are talking about a national insurance contribution scheme that has a ceiling on the amount of pension that can be paid. It is a contributory scheme, and it is right that the contributions should be related to the amount of pension.
  Mrs. Beckett: The hon. Gentleman talks about what has happened to the pension ceiling. He has picked a particularly unfortunate case. It was precisely the difference between the pensions and earnings of police officers that was so severely affected by this Government, who made unilateral cuts and changes in breach of contract. From the hon. Gentleman's point of view, it is a great pity that he brought up that case. The Government have treated police officers very badly over pensions.
  My basic point is simple. At present, we have a system where there can be two people living in one household who earn £20,000 each and pay national insurance contributions on the total £40,000 income, and next door one person who earns £40,000 pays national insurance contributions on half that income. That is unjust and illogical.
  This Government increased those national insurance contributions from 6·5 to 9 per cent. This Government have lifted the ceiling on employers' contributions, thereby loading the effect on business costs right through the earnings range. This Government have applied national insurance contributions to company cars.
  Mr. Quentin Davies: Will the hon. Lady give way?
  Mrs. Beckett: I do not know why the hon. Gentleman seeks to make such silly points. He knows perfectly well that we are discussing the fact that we are going to raise the ceiling.
  Last week I challenged the Chief Secretary and asked him whether, as the Government had lifted the ceiling on employers' national insurance contributions and were making criticisms, would he give a categorical undertaking that the Government would not, in this Parliament, or in the unlikely event of their having the opportunity in the next, lift the ceiling on employee contributions? Will he give us that undertaking?

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  The Prime Minister made criticisms of the married couple's allowance and the extra mortgage interest relief—and then the Government implemented that policy—
  Mr. Quentin Daviesrose—
  Mrs. Beckett: I am perfectly prepared to give way if the hon. Gentleman is prepared to tell me whether the Government will lift the ceiling on national insurance contributions. If he is not prepared to do so, I shall not give way but shall wait for an assurance from Ministers. They charged us about the married couple's allowance, they attacked us on mortgage relief and are now attacking us on national insurance contributions, but what about all the poor nurses and teachers about whom they made such a fuss a moment ago?
  Mr. Tim Smith: This is outrageous—that is Labour party policy.
  Mrs. Beckett: Yes, it is our policy and we are prepared to stand by it—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. It does not help the House or the hon. Lady when hon. Members from each side of the House are shouting at each other.
  Mrs. Beckett: I have one last thing to say about national insurance contributions. Not only do all the people involved know that we are making this proposal, but they know that we are pledged to do it and they know where the money is going. The money is going to pensioners and families with children—where it is very much needed. People can make their decision in the light of the very clear choice that we are setting before them. Labour's policies involve no deceit and hiding.
  Mr. Maude: The hon. Lady says that people know where the money is going, but do they understand that the Labour party regards education as its first priority, training as a key priority, Government support for manufacturing investment as a key priority and spending 0·7 per cent. of GNP on overseas aid as a top priority? To which of those priorities is the money going? Is it to go to them all? Will the hon. Lady answer the question that my right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary asked her? Are those matters all priorities? If not, which are not priorities?
  Mrs. Beckett: I suggest that the Financial Secretary should read Hansard and see what I said earlier. I have already answered that question twice and see no point in answering it for a third time.
  I shall now return to the Government's plans because I have been speaking for long enough. They contain the flaw at the heart of the Government's case, which is that there is a choice between cuts in income tax and cuts in public services or increases in value added tax—or, under this Government, both.
  On the "Today" programme the other morning, the right hon. Member for Shropshire, North (Mr. Biffen) was asked about the demands of the welfare state and what he described as the Government's ambitious programmes for cuts in direct taxation. He said that it was quite simple:
  "Any attempt to reduce income tax to 20p in the pound will have to be phased over a considerable period of time and in my view, it is as likely to be in the context that we decide that we're going to be taxed more in our spending capacity and less in our earning capacity and as evidence for that I
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  would point just to the recent Budget, where the decision was taken to increase VAT and to increase excise duties but not to increase income tax."
  Mr. Knapman: I understand that the principal contribution to economic affairs of the right hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Kinnock) is an annual consultation with his abacus, but does the £20 billion which has suddenly been manufactured include the money to be used to renationalise the water companies?
  Mrs. Beckett: The hon. Gentleman knows that I have already addressed the point about the £20 billion several times. The hon. Gentleman knows that we are saying that that is an illustrative figure of the revenues that come from growth without having to raise taxes.
  The hon. Member for Stroud asked me about water. We have made it extremely plain that, although we think that, in the long term, the water industry belongs in the public sector, it is not one of the policies that we expect to implement soon after coming to power. We intend to tighten regulations and try to ensure that the water industry is responsive to public need.
  There is a question mark in the much longer term over the pattern of control of the water industry. There are those who argue that there should be more regional control than control from the centre. That question would arise in overall discussions about the shape of regional government and the powers that may be devolved from central Government. The hon. Gentleman will readily recognise that the debate about the shape of the industry is a matter for the longer term.
  There is a strong possibility that the Government will increase VAT to pay for their income tax cuts—that is, if they do not now say that they will discard them, which is always a possibility. Income tax cuts have to be paid for either by cuts in public services or by increases in VAT, national insurance contributions or something else. Lest anyone imagine that Conservative Members have no track record on the issue, let me remind the House of what the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East said in the general election campaign on 21 April 1979. He said that he would like to correct "inexcusable errors" in a Labour party-political broadcast of the time; and added:
  "We have absolutely no intention of doubling VAT."
  Seven and a half weeks later, almost to the day, in his Budget, he raised VAT from 8 to 15 per cent. I concede that that was not exactly doubling it, but if the Financial Secretary wishes to tell the British people that the Government will not raise VAT to 22 per cent., but they might raise it to 21 or 21·5 per cent., or even to 23 per cent., all of which are compatible with denying that they intend to raise it to 22 per cent., I am sure that the British people would be interested to hear it.
  Let us come back to reading the book, as the Chief Secretary earlier invited us to. The Government boast—the Chief Secretary was at it today—that they have funded public services not just adequately but generously. They must believe that their funding is generous, because they have so often, even in the boom years, put in less Chan the economy could afford. Under this Government, the inspectors have identified dilapidation in schools that will cost £3 billion to £4 billion to put right. Under this Government, for the first time ever, paper sheets and pillow cases have appeared in hospitals; and waiting lists have soared. Under this Government, some trains have become not just a disgrace but death traps.

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  The Labour party promises no miracles and no magic wand. We tell the electorate bluntly that it will take years to repair the damage and restore the neglect of these years, and that many of the scars will always show. I do not usually use large chunks of other people's words in my speeches, but I read a Daily Mirror editorial on Friday which should be shared with the House, especially with Conservative Members, who almost certainly do not read the Daily Mirror. That editorial did what the Chief Secretary asked us to do and looked around at the consequences of 12 years of Tory rule:
  "Look at the rising toll of the unemployed and be thankful for the present figure, for it will not stop increasing before it reaches three million.
  Look at the schools whose walls are crumbling and whose pupils lack the textbooks to teach them the basics of learning and be grateful that they are being taught anything at all.
  Look at the homeless in the centres of London, Manchester and the other great cities of these islands and wonder why they don't go out and get a mortgage.
  Look at the traffic perpetually stuck in jams because spending on the road system has been neglected and ask why they can't be bothered to walk.
  Look at the squalor of British Rail, the late trains, the dirty carriages …which itself is an eloquent testimony …
  Look outside your door at the rubbish in the streets, the lamps which don't light, and the police who are not there. Examine your bills for water and gas and electricity, all outrageously increased because the Government wanted to privatise to feather the nests of its friends.
  Look at the profits which have been made in the City of London and then look at the losses of those living in bed and breakfast hostels because they have been evicted.
  Look at the endless queues for the NHS, while doctors and nurses are being sacked.
  Feel the pain of those who need operations but cannot get them, at least not for years.
  Look. Feel. See. Use your own experience, your own knowledge."
  We want the people of this country to read the book of the Government's record.
  Sir David Mitchell rose—
  Mrs. Beckett: I will not give way. I am on my last sentence.
  We share the Chief Secretary's view that the people of this country should read the book of the Government's record, as set out in their public expenditure history and forecasts; and when they have read it, they should resolve to turn a new page and elect a new Government.
  5.36 pm
  Mr. Ian Stewart: In the public expenditure White paper the Government have set out clearly their plans for the coming years. Like many other Members, I came to the House this afternoon in the hope that the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) would explain with equal clarity what the Labour party planned to do if they got into Government. I am sorry to say that we have been seriously disappointed, because, although several of my hon. Friends intervened to ask pertinent questions, and the hon. Lady said that she would deal with those matters later in her speech, in the end she managed to avoid answering them. So I must ask her some of those questions again.
  Over the past hour we have been waiting for an explanation of some of the extraordinary things that Opposition economic spokesmen have said on behalf of
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  their party. I do not know whether the Leader of the Opposition can be classed as one of the Labour party's economic spokesmen, but in view of his role it is fair to assume that what he says carries the authority of the party that he leads.
  The first matter which the hon. Lady made even more unclear than it was before she spoke was the status of the £20 billion that the economy would yield for public expenditure in relation to the Government's published expenditure plans. That £20 billion is much less than the figure in the Government's public expenditure plans. If the labour party is substituting that figure for the Government's, what will it cut to get spending down to £20 billion from the £38 billion Government figure? The hon. Lady has not explained that, although she was repeatedly asked to do so.
  Mrs. Beckett: I must intervene to save the right hon. Gentleman more embarrassment. I made it plain that there is no direct comparison—and certainly there is no comparison between the figures that he mentions. The £38 billion that he cites is cash, whereas the £20 billion is in real terms.
  Mr. Stewart: In real terms the figures still come out as a substantial part of the £20 billion. The crucial question is: does the hon. Lady argue that the £20 billion is a substitute for the figure in the White Paper, or is it meant to be additional?
  Mrs. Beckett: I made it absolutely clear that our figure had nothing to do with the figures in the White Paper. It is an illustration of the fact that 2·5 per cent. growth over five years would yield about £20 billion in revenues. No suggestion of a comparison was made by my right hon. Friend. Only Conservative Members, through stupidity or malice, are trying to make such a connection.
  Mr. Stewart: If there is no connection, why on earth did the leader of the Labour party quote the figures?
  Mrs. Beckett: I have told the right hon. Gentleman this four times and I will tell him a fifth. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition was responding to the lie put about by Conservative Members that the only way to get revenues for extra public spending was by increasing the basic rate of income tax. That is not true and it never has been true. I trust that it never will be true—unless the Government stay in power for longer and we have a recession every year.
  In a normal year, there is growth. With 2·5 per cent. growth, on a moderate estimate, there can be £20 billion for spending. If there is less growth, there is less money; if there is more growth there is more money. We can get more revenues, therefore, without raising the basic rate of tax. [Interruption.] The Financial Secretary says that we have never done that, but he knows that it is untrue. Is he trying to ruin his reputation? He must realise that members of the general public who are economically literate and follow such debates are well aware that there is growth under every Government, whether Labour or Conservative. He makes a fool of himself by pretending otherwise.
  Mr. Stewart: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her lecture. I did not need it, because I know a fair bit about these matters. The Leader of the Opposition claims that £20 billion will be available for public expenditure out of

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  growth. Does that substitute for the hon. Lady's commitment to public expenditure out of growth that is already contained in Government figures? If the Leader of the Opposition has not explained that to the shadow Chief Secretary, it is no wonder that the Opposition are getting a bad press on their handling of their economic plans.
  The hon. Member for Derby, South should have clarified matters, but she avoided the question whether revenue from future growth in the economy is regarded by the Opposition as extra money that is available for public expenditure. If it is not, why on earth is she, as shadow Chief Secretary, allowing her colleagues to go up and down the country saying that every single area of public expenditure that they can think of is a top or key priority?
  Mr. Tracey: My right hon. Friend speaks about Opposition spending pledges. In the presence of the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett), the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott), the shadow spokesman on transport, said in Derby at the beginning of the month that a Labour Government would electrify the main line all the way to the midlands to bring benefits to Derby. Presumably that is a first-line priority pledge. Does the hon. Lady deny that?
  Mr. Stewart: I do not know what the hon. Lady will deny or confirm. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) said that this was an overriding priority. Is an overriding priority greater than a top priority and is a top priority more or less important than a key priority? We have heard that water privatisation has a low priority.
  Mr. John Garrett: What does the right hon. Gentleman think of the Government's spending plans?
  Mr. Stewart: They are sensible in relation to the available resources. They are a continuation of record public expenditure carried out over 12 years during which we have been able to reduce the rate of income tax and reduce, and for a time eliminate, borrowing, of which we inherited a great deal from the last Labour Government. Through careful control of overall public expenditure, we have been able to increase public expenditure in key areas.
  Mr. Andrew Mitchell: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) should reply to the important point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Surbiton (Mr. Tracey) about a pledge made in Derby in the hon. Lady's presence? Many people in the east midlands suspect that it is the sort of pledge that Labour, if it ever came to power, would riot be able to redeem. Would there be a firm pledge by an incoming Labour Government that the midland main line would be electrified? The hon. Lady must say yes or no to that question.
  Mr. Stewart: I will happily give way to the hon. Lady if she wishes to respond. She does not. Did the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East consult the hon. Lady before he said that such a major commitment was an overriding priority? What about the other commitments? Did the hon. Lady speak to the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) before he said that education was Labour's first priority? Which comes first, a first priority or an overriding priority? One would think that an overriding priority would take precedence over even a first priority.
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  The right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) says that education and training are key priorities. If Labour's spending commitments are to appear credible, the Opposition must tell us whether they categorically repudiate all the priorities spread about the country by Labour spokesmen. If those priorities are not commitments, spokesmen have no right to say that they are key, top and overriding priorities.
  The same thing always happens under Labour Governments. As soon as they are elected they go on a spending binge, because before elections all their spokesmen go round the country saying that more spending on this and that is a top, a key, an overriding or a first priority. They cannot be held at bay. It is not possible for a Labour Government to finance such spending commitments without increasing the burden of taxation.
  The Opposition have an extra difficulty. They have said that they would not proceed with our plans for privatisation which, over the next three years, will produce £5·5 billion each year. That is a total of £16·5 billion and almost gobbles up the Opposition's £20 billion before they have even started. Where will a Labour Government get that money? They will either have to cut spending in other areas of public expenditure, raise taxes or increase borrowing. That is because the Opposition have not focused on the fact that a public expenditure programme must be identified in advance and must be within the means of the Government to fund it. Everything that the Opposition have said about priorities fails to meet those criteria. It is completely dishonest to speak about top priorities when there is no intention in the foreseeable future of doing anything about them.
  Much of the hon. Lady's speech was devoted to the White Paper. She said there was not enough expenditure on health, education and transport, and she was robustly supported by her hon. Friends. The hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) said that much more should be spent on transport, health and education. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett) said that a great deal more should be spent on local government. How would a Labour Government cope with that, when the Opposition say that they are committed to spending on only two matters and that all the others are for the birds?
  Anyone who reads Lord Barnett's book about the experience of the Labour Government in the 1970s will see that any Labour Chief Secretary will find pressure to increase public expenditure irresistible. Those irresistible pressures to increase public expenditure would inevitably result in financial problems which could be solved only by tax increases or by borrowing. If public sector borrowing is increased to fund such extravagant commitments, the debt service burden will increase not only immediately, but for all the years ahead. That adds to the increases in public expenditure to which Labour is committed.
  One reason why we have been able to restrain public expenditure in recent years and have been able to devote more money to useful functions in the public service instead of to debt interest is that we have reduced the public sector borrowing requirement and have repaid a substantial part of the national debt. As soon as the process goes into reverse, it becomes not a virtuous circle but a vicious one, and public expenditure increases year by year to service the extra money borrowed.
  Mr. Beith: The hon. Gentleman will surely concede that the documents that we are debating do precisely that—they put the process into reverse. The documents show a substantial public sector borrowing requirement for reasons that arise out of the recession.
  Mr. Stewart: The hon. Gentleman's final words explain the position. My right hon. Friend the Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) explained a few years ago that the Government's policy, over time, was to have a balanced budget. In some years of the economic cycle there will be a surplus, but in others there will be a deficit. Public expenditure cannot be increased in absolute terms without increasing taxation or borrowing to pay for it.
  In recent years, the Labour party has said that interest rates are too high and should come down whatever their level has been. If the amount of borrowing is increased, there will have to be higher interest rates than would otherwise be the case. That is an inevitable consequence which again increases the burden on public expenditure. It is likely that the Labour party's solution would be the same as in the past. There would be major increases in taxation on incomes.
  I well remember that, during the first general election campaign in 1974, the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) said that he would raise taxes on the rich and squeeze them until the pips squeaked. He did not say at that time that his definition of the rich included those with below average earnings. That is always the way, because the majority of taxpayers are at the lower end of the scale. If a significant amount of extra money is to be raised from income tax, it is not sufficient to pile on high rates at the top end. If extra revenue is to be raised, taxes have to be increased throughout the scale. That is what the Labour party did in the 1960s and 1970s, and the only reason why it did not do so in the 1980s was that it was not in a position to do so.
  The hon. Member for Derby, South told us to examine the evidence of the past. However, Labour Governments have traditionally and invariably increased public expenditure sharply and increased tax rates on average incomes. That would happen again. The hon. Lady has shown that the arithmetic in the Labour party's financial plans cannot be trusted. It says that it could spend more without increasing the tax burden on ordinary people. That is a false prospectus. The Labour party has been rumbled in the House and it will be rumbled in the country. What happened in the past could happen again.
  High public expenditure and high taxation are a way of life for the Labour party. It has said nothing today to change our view of what it would do if it were ever in power again.
  5.53 pm
  Mr. John Garrett: First, I shall refer to the form of the public expenditure document, because nobody else is likely to and because I believe that, as in architecture, form should follow function, but the function of the reports is to obscure the facts. It is remarkable that we conduct these debates as if the departmental reports made any sense at all. I shall shortly demonstrate that they do not.
  I am in the 23rd year of a campaign to require the Treasury and other Departments to set out not only what they are spending in each programme, but their objectives and the outcomes of past programmes. I first raised the
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  issue with the Procedure Committee in 1969, and in that year the first public expenditure White Paper had 81 pages, with one page each for health and welfare and one page for defence, and very helpful it was too.
  This White Paper has 1,500 pages in £20 volumes. It costs £200, so some university departments are unable to afford it. If one adds the estimates, the appropriation accounts, the next steps agency report, the next steps agency framework documents and the trading fund reports, 3,000 pages are now produced annually on spending. But there is hardly more information that we had in 1969.
  There is no reason why the estimates and the appropriation accounts could not be organised in columns against each of the spending programmes. The first year's programme is next year's estimates, and last year's completed programme is last year's appropriation account. That would save 28 volumes of information.
  When Treasury officials were asked in the Select Committee on the Treasury and Civil Service why there had to be 28 extra volumes, they could not answer. They had never asked the Committee whether the information was required in the estimates or the Public Accounts Committee or the Comptroller and Auditor General whether the information was needed on the appropriation accounts.
  Many of the reports are drab, with a few hazy graphs. Of all the Departments, the Home Office has produced a volume which would not look out of place in the reception area of an advertising agency. Graphic graphs are printed over pictures of prisoners at work, over what appears to be a fire in a chip pan, over computers, with a signed foreword topped by a photograph of a smiling Home Secretary. The report by the Office of Arts and Libraries, which has a spend of £500 million, has 34 pages—20 per cent. longer that the report by the Ministry of Defence which spends £22,000 million.
  The report from the Ministry of Defence is largely narrative, with virtually no analytical back—up. It says that its efficiency programme to improve the cost of that great Ministry by 2·5 per cent. a year is going well, and it gives us some descriptive examples such as cancelling the overhaul of nine aero engines. A Department that spends £22,000 million tells us that it had forgone the overhaul of nine aero engines. The report does not provide any basis for parliamentary scrutiny of efficiency. It tells us that its new management strategy will be set out in a departmental plan which will include objectives and performance measures, but it fails to tell us whether that plan will be published.
  The best report is that of the Inland Revenue, and it is called a management plan. It sets out its purposes and aims, its management strategies, its capital spending by project and such efficiency indicators as the cost per pound collected in revenue, the cost per taxpayer, and a wide variety of measures of past and future performance.
  Elsewhere, the information can only be described as haphazard and whimsical. The reports usually set out in great detail what they are spending, but there are few meaningful indicators of their targets or what has been achieved in the past. A few examples will give the flavour. The Minister for the Civil Service gives the ratings on, for example, accommodation and catering given to the Civil Service college by its students. However, it does not

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  mention or report any progress on equal opportunities policies in the service—a matter for which it has responsibility.
  The Department of Employment record no objectives for youth or employment training, and I am not surprised, given the cuts in those services. It gives no information on the placement of young people gaining qualifications or jobs. It explains that those targets will be agreed later with training and enterprise councils, as if it had no responsibility whatsoever for setting them.
  The huge report of the Department of the Environment—the largest, at 178 pages—sets out page after page of detail on future spending, but contains no past analyses or future targets for the improvement of, for example, the quality of air or water. It reports its interest in preserving the landscape, but fails to report the extent of damage or destruction to sites of special scientific interest. It mentions the extent of homelessness, but offers no indication of how much it expects to reduce it. We are told at length of the Department's spending on inner cities, but we are given no clue to what improvements it is aiming at in quality of life for their residents.
  The Department of Social Security report informs the reader of the ways in which take—up rates for benefits can be calculated, but gives no analysis of what they are, or of how they might be improved.
  There are many useful statistics in the Department of Health's volume—statistics on the costs of its services, the number of out-patient attendances, the average length of in-patient episodes, immunisation take—up rates, general practitioner list sizes and prescription costs. It contains mortality rates for a number of diseases, and targets for coronary grafts, hip replacements, cataract operations and bone marrow transplants. Unfortunately, all those series of figures end in 1989 or 1990, so there are no indicators of how the Government expect them to improve. We are told what special funds have been allocated to reduce waiting list sizes, which is a key indicator, but we are given no idea by how much the Department expects them to be reduced.
  Those of us who have argued for the past 20-odd years that public expenditure White Papers should set out as many spending programmes as possible, and should give the social and economic indicators which will enable us to know the objectives of spending, can only record dismay at all this, as these first departmental reports are ridiculous. They either mean that Departments are trying to swamp the reader with meaningless numbers or, what is more likely, they simply poured into them any old figures that they had to hand—except for the Treasury, which reported virtually nothing.
  The Treasury's slender report has an interesting selectivity; it grandly informs the reader that one of its objectives is to maintain a general oversight of the financial system and to help maintain its integrity. Another aim is to manage Government debts and financial assets effectively and prudently. That is very worth while, and we understand that those are two of the Treasury's jobs. Therefore, one might have expected the report to include some measures relating to City failures and the effectiveness of investor protection, or to the Treasury's competence on debt management and custody of assets. However, a suggestion to that effect in the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee was greeted with surprise by Treasury officials.
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  On the other hand, the Treasury report tells the reader about the productivity of pay clerks in the Chessington computer centre, and offers an unintelligible graph, showing the caseload of clerical staff in the pensions administration office. The Treasury does not tell us anything about its grand duties of safeguarding Government's debts and financial assets, but tells us in great detail what some poor clerk achieved in the Chessington computer office or the pensions administration office. That is typical of the amateurism that has always run through the British civil service, especially the Treasury, whose mandarins are only too happy to apply measurement to the work of their clerical staff, but not to themselves.
  The presentation of statistical indicators reaches a somewhat eccentric peak in the report of the Welsh Office, which is one of the best of the departmental reports. There is a section on "Indicators of a Healthy Lifestyle," between 1985–88, which records the percentages of the Welsh population using semi—skimmed milk and eating fruit daily.[Laughter.]
  There is promise of more to come, as the section on indicators of health tells us that the Department is considering the production of an indicator on emotional health and relationships. In a future report, we shall see a performance indicator of emotional health and family relationships among the people of Wales, but the Treasury will not tell us how it proposes to manage the nation's assets.
  Really, these reports are merely a mandarin's playpen —they do not make any sense at all. They threw in any statistic they could find, and it is ridiculous that we are expected to treat them seriously.
  Last week in the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee, the Treasury said that each report set out for each Department a set of ordered priorities and the criteria by which policy changes are assessed, but it could not find an example of either. There is no example of either in any of those in the departmental reports, yet they are required of Departments by the Treasury.
  Not surprisingly, the Treasury also told us that the division concerned with applying quality controls to these reports does not have a management accountant in its employ, and it hopes to seek the advice of management accountants from somewhere else. It is no wonder that this kind of information is nonsense.
  Our Select Committee would be well advised to take this matter seriously. We are being swamped with information in reports which carefully omit the information we need if we are to scrutinise the work of the Departments.
  This week, the National Audit Office reported the Treasury as saying that it was satisfied with performance indicators in 26 of the 34 Departments. In other words, the Treasury is perfectly happy with what we are getting. I guess that these reports are the state of the art as far as the Treasury is concerned, and we are not going to get any more. Select Committees should watch that carefully.
  I shall refer only to one programme as an example of the content of the White Paper, because it is of special concern and it is referred to in our amendment. The report of the Department of Employment reveals a real—terms cut in youth training of £100 million in the next three years, at a time when the automatic pilot running our economy will take unemployment to 2·5 million this autumn, and it is quite likely that it will reach 3 million this winter.

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  If ever an increase in spending were needed, it is needed now. That is a typical counter-cyclical investment; one pours money into training when the economy is down, so that when it revives one has a properly skilled work force who are capable of taking advantage of the revival.
  In my constituency, there is great concern about the effects of cuts in employment training. Employment training courses have been cut from one year to 26 weeks. Mr. Bill Wood, the vice-chair of the association of training organisations in my area, has said:
  "The whole thing is a shambles … The unemployed people are just the fall guys."
  Growing redundancies have meant that many people who need retraining, on ET, no longer fall within the Government's guarantee of access to training, and many unemployed people will receive none.
  The recession also means that there is much less opportunity for work experience placements, which have almost dried up in my constituency. Since 1989–90, there have been constant cuts in the basic rate of funding for each training week. That is supposed to be replaced by output-related funding, but only a quarter of trainees in Norwich complete their full entitlement of training to gain recognised qualifications, so they do not qualify for output-related funding.
  Most trainees have special needs and cannot reach the vocational qualifications, on which funding depends. They have special needs, which are simply not recognised by the funding of training. In other words, training schemes are being cut and fewer people are being trained. Training programmes should be a high priority for public spending, and the Government are not giving them that priority. When the recession ends, we shall be in the more competitive world of 1992, and our workers will be much less equipped to face the challenges from our competitors.
  The Government's attitude to training is folly, but it is part of a wider folly. The Department of Trade and Industry budget, in the first year of this programme. loses 20 per cent.—£250 million in real terms—in 1991–92, when support for industrial innovation is needed more than ever. Government spending on education is to fall by 5 per cent. in real terms in the same year—1991–92. Education spending has fallen from 5·5 per cent. of gross domestic product in 1979 to 4·6 per cent. of GDP in 1990. What a thing to have to admit at this time, when we need skilled workers and properly educated young people. Instead of doing that, the Government are cutting and cutting the education budget.
  Last weekend, I attended the court of the univeristy of East Anglia. The vice—chancellor made it clear that standards would have to fall because, with no increase in funding, there would have to be another 8 per cent. or so increase in the number of students. Apart from being useless from a management point of view, these departmental reports are useless in every other way.
  It is amazing that the Treasury has never caught on to how to organise management information, even though budgetary control was invented in 1919. One would have expected that by now we should have had a budgetary control system that would give the results of Government spending, compared with the objectives. The departmental reports show a fundamental neglect of public investment
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  in training, industry and education—just the programme areas in which we need to invest for our future if we are to remain in the first rank of European nations.
  6.10 pm
  Sir Ian Lloyd: I do not intend to take up immediately the points made by the hon. Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Garrett) but I listened with great interest to what he had to say about this series of reports. The first issue that I wanted to raise was exactly that—their sheer weight, size and cost.
  First, however, may I refer to something that the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) said? She referred to the whole philosophy of cuts. I cannot help but reflect on the fact that on almost every occasion in recent years when we have held debates such as this, the definition of the term "cut" has become more and more complex, difficult and political. If a child's £1 pocket money were raised to £2, he would probably regard that as an increase both in money and in real terms. If, however, he went home and said that his little friend Frederick had got an increase of £2 in his pocket money, he would probably regard his own increase in pocket money as a cut in real terms. I believe that that sort of psychology is being bruited about for political purposes. It is reasonable that that should happen in a political debate.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary put his finger on the most important subject that can be discussed in this debate: that all this points to the need for quality and effectiveness in public expenditure. As he said, there is no escaping the difficulty of such decisions. but they must be better informed.
  There are two aspects to that better information, one of which I shall summarise briefly. Trained statisticians know —there are many thousands of them in Government service, and thousands of them in industry—that many of the figures bruited about in economic debates concerning employment, unemployment, gross national product, and so on are subject to what are known as statistical limits of error. It is a very precise and well defined term. What it means is that we cannot rely on such aggregates in the case of something like gross national product, where we are talking about £560,000 million and that figure being accurate to, plus or minus, about 5 per cent. If my arithmetic is correct, 5 per cent. of £560,000 million is something like, plus or minus, £28 billion. All the figures, therefore, that try to conclude that there will or will not be £20 billion available in the near future and that it will or will not be allocated in this way, should be subjected to the most cautious qualification.
  I turn to the main matters that have arisen in the past and that will continue to arise concerning the vast and almost incomprehensible question of public expenditure. They give rise to what I believe to be three dangerous myths. The hon. Member for Norwich, South touched on this, because he is interested in parliamentary scrutiny. First it is a dangerous myth that Parliament at the moment continues to be an effective controller of the public interest when it comes to expenditure. Secondly, there is the growing impact of the pervasive but unrealistic myth of so—called underfunding—again, something on which there are many political views. Thirdly, perhaps the most serious misconception of all is that a pound redistributed via the fiscal and social security system is equal in value and public merit to a pound denied, for example, to basic science or

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  fundamental research, technology transfer, the recognition and encouragement throughout our society of excellence, and the public's perception of its real interest. I suggest that these are very different values.
  May I begin with a visible and physical illustration of what I mean by Parliament's inability to control public expenditure, to which the hon. Member for Norwich, South referred? In voicing it, I do not wish for a moment to denigrate what I believe to be the immense and continous effort of the Chairmen and members of the Public Accounts Committee and the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee on the subject. They do extremely valuable work. In fairness, however, it ought to be added that much of that work is done by the overworked Clerks who serve those Committees.
  Here is the record—20 volumes. I believe that the hon. Member for Norwich, South has added a few more volumes to that number. I worked it out that they amount to 1,400 pages. costing over £200. They were published a couple of weeks before the Budget and they set the pattern well ahead to 1993–94. I imagine that I was not alone in being appalled, if not surprised, when my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House announced that they could not be discussed before the Budget. This, he implied— correctly—was for next year's Budget and beyond— tablets not of stone but of software and printers' ink.
  Some assiduous Members—doubtless many of them are much more assiduous than I—may since publication have read from cover to cover one or two of these reports. Some of them may have written to the Minister concerned expressing critical or constructive views on the detail. Those views will vary widely. Moreover, what is regarded as constructive in this House will also vary widely. None the less, that is our task. Some hon. Members may rest content with a wet towel, a stiff brandy and the 122-page summary that costs about £17. If any hon. Member has read the lot and written to several Ministers, I should gladly give way to his or her intervention. This is part of the massive information overload that is generated by a system that probably went beyond the control of any single individual or any institution—certainly of this place—at about the time of the first world war.
  What do we control, if anything, here? I suggest that for this House it is a very eclectic choice. We grumble about the total expenditure of particular Departments and suggest, according to our political preferences, that defence should give way to health, or social welfare, or vice versa. We tend to exhibit—as I shall doubtless do in a few minutes—particular predilections for particular projects or forms of expenditure. We also have furious discussions about the distribution of expenditure between central and local government, and even more furious discussions about the major boundary between public expenditure as a whole and private expenditure. We look on it as a residual that should be either increased or reduced.
  Inevitably and very properly, with a Budget of this size we concentrate on waste and abuse. We are often well informed by bodies such as the Public Accounts Committee and the Audit Commission about outstanding examples of waste and abuse. We read in the national press this morning of one example: a ship which should have cost £27 million, but ended up costing about £70 million. That was a vast increase in cost and a waste of resources.
  These are familiar and well-trodden paths. Anybody who has been a Member of Parliament for some time could easily write the speeches on either side of the argument.
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  What, then, do we not do that is both desirable and practicable? I believe that the limits are very severe. They are the limits of time, comprehension and the sheer volume of data. Within those limits, however, I should like there to be a much more critical analysis of the expenditure boundaries between Departments. These are the great no-go areas of public and political debate—certainly of parliamentary debate.
  We should not wait until overclaims—there will never be underclaims—are settled behind closed doors by a so—called Star Chamber committee consisting of Ministers whose experience and dedication to the public interest are supposed by definition to confer on them an objectivity which overrides political, personal, or vested interests. It may in some cases well do so, but it asks an awful lot of any human being. As I have argued in a letter to the former Prime Minister, and subsequently to my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary, the House should be represented on that committee, and the arguments between the claimants should be known outside the so-called inner circle.
  Although the House receives nothing like the analytical and statistical support which is supplied to the United States Congress by the congressional budget office and by the general accounting office—we do not have anything like those large, substantial organisations which serve not the federal Government but Congress—Parliament must ask itself whether it can justify its present impotence when any Government of any party can say to us in effect, "Take it or leave it."
  Under our system, as opposed to that in the United States, we have to live with a paradox. I have discussed this before. We have both to sustain the Government in power constitutionally and monitor their claims on and disbursement of the public purse. When that proportion hovers between 40 per cent. and 50 per cent. of gross national product, now well over £200 billion—I think the figure is £270 billion and rising—we should as an institution be much less squeamish about defending an expenditure of, say, £10 million which had the effect of improving national performance by a mere 1 per cent. That would be £5 billion of GNP, or £2 billion of public expenditure. A figure of £10 million, for example, added to the budget of this place would be very badly spent if we could not see an improvement in national performance of that order of magnitude.
  As I see it, that will need two things, neither of which will be popular. It will require Governments of all parties to concede that the divergence between constitutional theory and practice is now too great. The House has an obligation and a responsibility which it is not discharging. A great deal more than lip service is required. It requires Parliament to equip itself with a far more powerful and pervasive engine of analysis and inquiry.
  The hon. Member for Norwich, South mentioned the inadequacies of these volumes. I think that this is the first time that I have seen a bilingual public document, with 124 pages in Welsh. I wonder how many people will read the Welsh issue. An example of waste is that all the maps and diagrams are duplicated. That is a minor point, but it should not happen. The more major points which the hon. Gentleman made relate to public scrutiny. We require a far-reaching change in what might be described as our political culture.
  The second is much more difficult and will go against a much deeper grain. It requires all of us, some of us, or a considerable number of us, to accept that our primary

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  responsibility here is to examine, monitor and, where necessary, modify the performance of Government. Policy must become our preoccupation. We must concentrate on policy—that difficult area of government—rather than on all the minutiae which increasingly dominate the life of the average Back Bencher, rushing back to his constituency to deal with dogs, pavements, drains and quarrelsome neighbours.
  It will be argued vigorously that the assiduous Member can do both. Some undoubtedly do; they are very assiduous indeed. That such a Member can, by working 70 hours a week, combine the role of policy maker, performance auditor, local ombudsman and welfare officer, is a suggestion which I find difficult to accept. I will be convinced by that argument when hon. Members, challenged as I challenged them earlier, rise to say that they have read the whole of the public expenditure analysis and papers, and have made active and effective representations to Government on matters which they consider of outstanding significance. That day is quite a long way off.
  Mr. John Garrett: I have a great deal of sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman says. I believe that we should be better resourced, so that we could examine more closely the spending programmes and policies of Government. Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman and I have a problem —that none of the Select Committees has ever ventured beyond the one-off examination of the occasional policies of a Department. None of them has ventured into examining the management of the Departments for which they are responsible. None of them has ventured into examining the expenditure of the Departments for which they are responsible.
  Furthermore, we now know from the recent report of the Select Committee on Procedure that none of them thinks that it needs more staff. In other words, most of our colleagues have narrowly defined their role on the matters about which the hon. Gentleman is talking. The hon. Gentleman may tell me how he and I might attempt to change the culture of this place.
  If the hon. Gentleman is so concerned about the load on hon. Members—he listed the constituency matters with which a Member may have to deal—why does he think that so many of his colleagues have outside employment as well?
  Sir Ian Lloyd: As to the work of Select Committees, I was not aware of the collective view on resources to which the hon. Gentleman has referred. I thought that there was a general view that they could do with a little more in the way of resources. Certainly that would have been my conclusion at the end of a 15-year stint as Chairman, first, of the Sub-Committee on Science and secondly, of the Select Committee on Energy. They need not a dramatic increase but a significant increase. I thought that our dedicated Clerks were from time to time grotesquely overworked. It was the limit of their capacity, as well as the reading time available to Members, which often determined that we could not extend our scope from the one or one and a half inquiries which we undertook to something which had come up and which should perhaps have demanded our immediate attention.
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  From my immediate experience in that area, I cannot accept that we never looked at management. We regarded our primary responsibility as an examination of policy. We examined the estimates carefully. There were a number of debates on the Floor of the House in which some aspects of the estimates of the Department of Energy were crucially and critically examined. I would certainly argue that that responsibility of Select Committees should continue. The hon. Gentleman and I share the view that it should be enlarged and reinforced.
  I do not think that that is necessarily an argument against what I was driving at earlier, which is that the House as a whole, this great institution of Parliament, should no longer present itself to the country, as we are inclined to do, as, in Bagehot's terms, controlling the public purse. We do not. We elect a Government which may control the public purse in ways which, depending on our political views, may or may not please us, but the House does not do so. I do not believe that that is a necessary condition. It is a condition which has grown, partly because of the reasons that I have given, such as the enormous information overload, and also because of the political culture which I described earlier, which suggests that we should keep ourselves busy in other ways and keep ourselves out of the hair of the Administration. I am not talking in a party political sense; I have seen that across the board.
  In regard to underfunding—a concept beloved by the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick), who, I am sorry to see, is not in his seat—we are all familiar with this pervasive and meaningless euphemism. Every one of the 20 documents describes underfunding. The third world is underfunded. Aid to the third world is underfunded. Every charity that I know could easily disburse twice its income. Most companies could invest twice their available capital or make good use of a substantial additional tranche of working capital. The world's richest communities—we must include ourselves, as well as north America, western Europe, Scandinavia and possibly parts of the middle east—cannot meet all the claims on their vast but limited resources.
  Needs, as the eminent American economist Kenneth Boulding said, are always defined in such a way as to outstrip supply. If we were to redistribute the entire wealth of all incomes above a national average and capital over, say, £50,000—ignoring the destructive effect of such policy on wealth creation—the funds made available would be swallowed up in a short time by underfunded institutions or communities in a few months at the most.
  Inflation generates a wide perception of underfunding, and politics has much to do with perception. Inflation is a process which is designed, and certainly has that effect, to leach value out of currency and ultimately to match demand and supply at the higher price. One of the most pernicious modern practices in the realm of public expenditure—it is especially apparent in local authority budgets—is to forecast an amount for inflation and to include a substantial amount in the budget for it. In biological terms, it is the equivalent of injecting the patient with a live virus.
  I should like to see that practice proscribed, although I concede that, at least in the transition period, it would pose immense difficulties. But what a discipline it would impose, even if it gave rise to procedural difficulties. My understanding of such matters may be limited—most of us have a limited understanding of some area of life—but for

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  a quarter of a century, I have watched the relentless and inexorable way in which the political system has sought to outwit the economic reality and, time after time, has fallen flat on its face. That is why I deplore any attempt by any party, now or at any time, in government or out of government, to put large tranches of public expenditure up for auction, as it were.
  We know that an annual rate of inflation of 1 per cent. in the United Kingdom is as clear a sign as we can have that our gross national product of £560 billion will be £5,600 million—1 per cent.—short in real terms of what we have, as a nation, collectively produced. Moreover, it is not a problem that can be solved by taxation, even assuming a zero effect of high taxation on output.
  The last time that I looked at the figures, about 4·3 million people earned more than £15,000 a year. Their total income after tax was £79 billion, of which £23 billion had been paid in tax. If that tax figure were doubled to £46 billion—or 58 per cent. of the total—it would hardly cover the annual expenditure of one of the major spending departments. I remind the House of the figures: £60 billion for the Department of Social Security, £22 billion for the Department of Health, £22 billion for the Ministry of Defence, and, lastly, although not on the same scale, £6·7 billion for the Department of Education and Science.
  I shall now deal with the science budget. I mention the Department of Education and Science because it is important to relate the total of £6·7 billion, of which just less than £1 billion is for science, to the total figure of £217 billion. Government—funded civil science as a whole, allowing for the research and development undertaken in the other Departments is—I am being generous in taking the upper limit of the Government's figure—not more than £3 billion, although many would argue that the figure is much lower.
  Civil science is the most crucial area of national expenditure. First, it influences the structure and much of the content of our wealth—creating system 15 to 20 years ahead. Secondly, there is in my experience no way to compensate for failure in this area in the type of society in which we live—it is increasingly technological and science based. Thirdly, our principal competitors have clearly recognised that fact. I draw the House's attention to the conclusion reached by the Natural Research Council of the United States in a fascinating paper entitled "Science, Technology, and the Future of the U.S.-Japan Relationship". It concludes:
  "Each country"—
  the United States and Japan, both super-powers in science and technology—
  "must tap into the expertise of the other. In the future, neither country will have the resources …to support large research projects in all fields."
  The paper goes on to state that, from a United States political perspective—I suggest that it is equally valid and true from our political perspective—
  "the need to integrate objectives across policy areas is now apparent. It will be necessary to combine scientific, economic, and security goals in pursuit of the national interest."
  It continues:
  "A top priority for the United States should be to expand the flow of technology from Japan … A prerequisite … is for the United States to maintain and expand leadership in at least enough fields of science and technology to ensure that both countries will continue to be `players'—sometimes rivals, sometimes partners, but both on the front line."
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  That applies 100 per cent. to western Europe, and therefore it applies even more to us as part of western Europe. That is what our competitors think about the subject.
  Fourthly, scientists are among the most gifted and important individuals in our society, and, like entrepreneurs, they have a high potential mobility. One pound withdrawn from a leisure centre's budget may stop someone swimming tomorrow or next year; a pound withdrawn from a crucial experiment or from work on microbiology or on ion implantation could mean that in 10 years, a virus such as AIDS gained mastery of the human race or that an industry abroad will set levels of quality and performance which we cannot match because our perspective was too short and we did not do the right things at the right time, which is now.
  I do not argue that science in the United Kingdom is underfunded, because that is not a justifying criterion. I have condemned that as a criterion—everything is underfunded. I am arguing that a system that allowed us to shut down a key nuclear research facility for £8 million while we spent £156 million last year on new leisure centres is a system that does not encourage us to make a rational allocation of national resources. To put it another way, it is not only not encouraging us, but actively discouraging us from making such a rational allocation.
  The analysis in the statistical supplement of expenditure trends per head is most revealing. The totals are £2,431 per head on public expenditure in the United Kingdom, of which £1,426 a year is spent on health and social security and £421 on education and science. Out of that total, approximately £20 per head is spent within that Department on civil science and approximately £60 per head on all Government—funded research and development. The expenditure total for all Government Departments brings that figure up to £103 per head and, as I understand it, that includes the funding of our universities.
  I argue that that figure is relatively and absolutely too low. The thrust of the activity is declining and is seen to be declining by the science community. I know that the science community is a beneficiary and is arguing a case that it believes to be vital to its own interests, but there are times when one must be able to discount the special pleading and say that there is something behind that pleading which is in the national interest. It is the height of folly to ignore or to treat with apparent contempt reports such as that by the Lords Select Committee on the science budget.
  I argue that there is no real science budget. The table on page 49 of the general paper is a classic example of what has been described as the fallacy of aggregates. For example, an elephant weighing one tonne plus one mosquito weighing one ounce give an average weight of half a tonne and half an ounce. That is totally meaningless, and I need go no further.
  Evidence that the science budget is an orphan within the Department of Education and Science is provided in the analysis of a recent issue of New Scientist, which suggests that, in its attempt to meet its 1992–93 cash limit, the Department of Education and Science is arguing that
  "the science budget would have to accept larger cuts than the rest of the education budget even though it has already reached the point when it can no longer support existing commitments".

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  It is suggested that my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State
  "will have to choose between schools or science."
  That is a desperate state of affairs.
  I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend will be able to deny that report completely on two grounds. First, research and development is not an alternative to education but a fundamental part of its structure and the basis of the education that a society such as ours will require in the 1990s and the next century. Indeed, it is what we require now, and we do not have enough.
  Secondly, any nation that allows its science to depend on the financial crumbs from the educational budget table is a nation that has its priorities wrong. Research and development should be the first and not the last claim on a nation's resources at any time—not least in a recession —and I am confident that, if there is unavoidable stringency, somewhere along the vast front of public expenditure—a planned £217 billion—savings of one tenth of 1 per cent. could be found, without pain to fund an additional £217 million on the science budget.
  In its admirable analysis of the issue, the House of Lords Committee reached the following conclusion:
  "It is incomprehensible to us that a whole area of UK science should have to be precipitately abandoned as part of a series of crisis measures and we roundly condemn the policies and practices which have put so much at risk."
  So, most regrettably, do I.
  Secondly, the Committee concluded:
  "Research Councils are. now being required to make choices about scientific endeavour which are too big to be left to Councils—
  the research councils—
  "alone without political guidance as to what is required of the science base in the context of present spending plans."
  The Lords Committee suggests that the Cabinet Committee on Science and Technology, over which I believe my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister presides, should involve itself in the public expenditure survey for science, as it was set up specifically to deal with "science matters across Government". I agree.
  Let me reinforce my judgment with three graphic illustrations, all of which come from a German Government document, the "Report of the Federal Government on Research 1998". Unfortunately, technology does not permit me to display my illustrations on a screen for all hon. Members to see, but I think that they will be able to understand the thrust of my remark. My first example concerns the table dealing with research and development expenditure and scientific performance level. Britain's performance is indicated by a yellow arrow in the bottom left-hand corner. The red arrow represents Japan's performance. Far up, in the right-hand corner, a green line shows the performance of the United States. Great Britain's performance is shown as starting well but then declining. Japan's performance is shown as overtaking us very rapidly indeed.
  My second example comes from the table in the same document on research and development expenditure and technological performance level. Japan's performance is represented by a red arrow and is shown to have climbed to the roof. It is followed by that of Germany. Great Britain is again in the bottom left-hand corner of the picture, as is France. My illustrations come from
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  completely unbiased information published by the German Federal Government, whose statisticians have no axe to grind in any sense.
  The third chart to which I shall refer shows the shares of Ministers in research and development expenditure of the federal court. We have no Minstry of science and technology but Germany has a federal Ministry for Research and Technology and that Ministry's budget occupies a large area at the bottom of the chart. The federal Ministry of Education and Science, on the other hand, occupies a narrow band. The Ministries of Economics, Defence and so on account for the rest of R and D expenditure.
  The sum within the discretionary spending of Dr. Riesenhuber, the Minister, is equal to the total Government-funded civil R and D in the United Kingdom. I know that the place is larger, but my point is that we lack that coherence and cohesion. The documents illustrate a singular point. Nowhere in our documentation have I seen a statement that matches that of Dr. Riesenhuber or graphs from which such a stark and compelling conclusion can be drawn.
  The third example is, in my judgment, the most significant, as it reveals the size and scope of the Federal Ministry for Research and Technology, with a budget of DM 7·6 billion by comparison with that for education and science. In 1988, its budget alone—DM 7·6 billion was almost equal to the whole of Britain's Government-funded civil research and development.
  There is the key to the Germany's future and to ours and to the survival of western Europe. We will have no excuse if, in 10 years' time, someone consults Hansard and says, "We were told this not once but many times and we did nothing. Now it is too late and Britain's scientific pre-eminence—and what tremendous pre-eminence—has over it the sign `RBC'—ruined by complacency."
  Newton's biographer, Sir David Brewster, referred to an "elaborate document" in which Sir Isaac Newton—who, I remind hon. Members, was twice a Member of the House—recommended
  "the systematic endorsement of science".
  Sir David wrote:
  "Were the British Parliament to try this question at its bar, and summon as witnesses the wisest of their race, what name, or what constellation of names could countervail against the High Priest of Science when he proposes to rebuild its temple upon a broader basis and give its arches a wider span and its domes a loftier elevation!"
  I wonder what Sir Isaac Newton would have to say today.
  6.47 pm
  Mr. A. J. Beith: I do not know whether Sir Isaac Newton would have been called, given that our debate has been going on for well over three hours and we have heard only five speeches so far. No doubt he would have made a compelling point and followed the hon. Member for Havant (Sir I. Lloyd) in underlining the need for investment in science. To hear his speech, however, we should perhaps have had to make rather more rapid progress.
  The style and character of the debate have changed markedly since we heard some rather bad-tempered exchanges not from the Front Benches but from the Back Benches. I rather enjoyed the Chief Secretary's jokes and I thought that the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) made a most stirring and effective defence of her proposals on national insurance contributions. She put her

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  case extremely well. Those who contributed to the somewhat bad-tempered atmosphere of the proceedings have since left for tea, and we may not see them again.
  There is an air of unreality about much of the debate. Much of the earlier part of our proceedings was based on the mistaken and disproven belief that Governments can predict with reasonable accuracy what will happen to public expenditure under their stewardship and that potential Governments can predict with reasonable accuracy what resources they will have and what they will do with them. Political parties have to set out plans and work out costings to show that it is at least theoretically possible to do what they propose. But things never work out like that, and Governments have an amazing incapacity to know what will come next and predict at all accurately what effects it will have on public finance.
  I could give a number of examples. Take the Government's decision to offer incentives to people to contract out of the state earnings-related pension scheme. That move was much more powerful in its consequences than the Government had bargained for. I leave aside entirely the question whether it was a good or a bad thing, but national insurance contributions were reduced by almost £2 billion more than expected. That is a pretty big hole to make in any budget.
  Similarly, the poll tax affair ended up in local authorities spending and borrowing much more than the Government had forecast in I989–90—by a figure of around £2 billion. That is already up to a fifth of what the Leader of the Opposition thinks he can safely predict we will get from increased growth and therefore be able to spend in various ways.
  Governments get things amazingly wrong. Let me give another example. In 1989, the Red Book forecast a cumulative public sector debt repayment of £19 billion for the ensuing three years. Now the Government forecast a cumulative borrowing requirement of £19 billion for the same three years—in other words, a difference of £38 billion from the amount originally indicated. That is an enormous divergence. I do not blame the Government particularly for it, although I blame them in the sense that the factors are a response to a recession that they should not have caused in the first place. One of the necessary responses is to allow automatic stabilisers to take effect and to engage in more borrowing. But this means a huge divergence—a divergence larger than the amount that the Leader of the Opposition expects will be available for various purposes.
  When we turn to the figures about which the Leader of the Opposition talked we have again to make growth assumptions. En some respects, those assumptions are less ambitious than the growth assumptions that the Government make. The Government have forecast that in the latter years of their forecast period—the equivalent of another Parliament—the growth rate will be 3·5 per cent. That is much above the level envisaged even by the Labour party. But actual growth figures rarely correspond to what is forecast.
  Mr. Nicholas Budgen (Wolverhampton, South-West): There is irony in the exchanges in which people say, "We can provide more growth than you can." For at least the past 40 years—year in, year out—the British economy has grown at 2·5 per cent. per annum. One side tells us that the raw-blooded capitalism of the nation has been released by the Tories; the other side tells us that compassion, decency
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  and fairness have been released by the socialists. It seems that the British people, on the whole, treat both claims with complete indifference and have continued to increase their GNP at a rate of about 2·5 per cent. per annum.
  Mr. Beith: There is much in what the hon. Gentleman says. However, he is averaging growth figures over a period. We are now in a recession and do not have that kind of growth. But there is indeed a great deal of well-justified scepticism around.
  Mr. Nicholas Brown: Let us follow that argument to its logical conclusion. If growth averaging 2·5 per cent. has been a feature of Governments of both complexions over the past 40 years—the compassion from our side following periods of Conservative government—surely the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South West (Mr. Budgen) is saying that it is about time the Labour party came to power and played its part in the cycle.
  Mr. Beith: No, it is the turn of the Liberal Democrats. It is time we had a chance to do what we can with the limited growth that the nation is able to achieve. We have certain proposals that we believe would improve the chance of increased growth. However, I shall state the case no more ambitiously than that.
  I was analysing some of the assumptions that are made in all these arguments, and I pointed to the Government's growth figures. But let me underline something else: that the Government's own forecasts are nothing like sufficient to achieve the 20p income tax target that the Government have frequently set. No wonder the Chancellor has started to back-pedal. On the basis of the figures that we are debating today, he certainly cannot achieve that target. But it is also rather strange for the official Opposition to say that, if they come to power, the 5p cut will not take place, as they will spend the money in certain ways. But the 5p is not there. It is not available in the projected revenues that the Government have put before us. Even allowing for the inaccuracy of those figures, it is unreasonable to assume that we could confidently arrange to spend the money at some time in the future.
  The Government say, "Never mind. We have managed the economy so well that we have achieved massive increases in expenditure on the services about which everybody is most concerned." They have, for example, increased real-terms expenditure on the health service more markedly in the past few years than in earlier years. Indeed, there were cuts in earlier years, but recently—particularly in the last couple of years-the Government have sought to achieve a real—terms increase. But even that figure has to be regarded with some caution. If one examines what is involved, one sees that it does not allow for the higher inflation that the national health service experiences in its costs than is to be found in retail price figures. This is based partly on increases arising from sales and efficiency improvements, some of which cannot be projected continually into the future. One cannot go on selling surplus property; eventually one runs out of property to sell.
  The increase does not take account of the growing numbers of people in the age groups in greatest need of health care. In that respect, a per-head figure would be more relevant. Nor does the increase take account of the pressures of new technology on the health service. It is perfectly reasonable for the Government to point out that,

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  in the last couple of years, they have achieved real-terms increases, but they might just mention these other points at the same time, for they help to explain why, down in the hospital ward, things do not seem like that at all. In the case of cleaning standards, food standards, the number of nurses on duty and night staffing, many hospitals could tell a tale of stringency and of people working in extremely difficult conditions. The explanation lies in the inability of these increases to match the problems that I have described.
  Another unreal feature of the debate on public expenditure is privatisation revenues. If there were to come into office a party that insisted that it would cease all privatisation currently taking place, would introduce no privatisation of its own, and might even renationalise some of the privatised industries, something would have to be done about the £5,500 million for each of the next five years represented by privatisation. In Government accounting, that counts as negative expenditure. In other words, all the money that the Government, in their forecasts, propose to spend has subtracted from it the money expected to come in from privatisation. That has to be taken into account. The official Opposition do not intend to engage in a great deal of privatisation—indeed, quite the contrary—so they cannot simply assume that they have £20 billion to add to what the Government have already spent, unless they subtract a figure for this revenue.
  The speed at which we shall get revenue is itself in doubt. It will depend on such things as when the Government decide to sell off the remaining British Telecome shares. The income from that sale will be very substantial, but we do not know when it will come. There are many uncertainties in that area, but what is certain is that the existing public expenditure forecasts must be reduced by the amount of privatisation revenues that one assumes a Labour Government would not seek in any way to obtain.
  At a time of recession and unemployment, it is deeply disturbing that, in all these Government figures, the Department of Employment and the Department of Trade and Industry are conspicuous for spending reductions. Surely investment in education and training is necessary if growth is to be produced. Training and education are not particularly inflationary. We do not generate inflation by increasing the training programme. It is a very sensible type of investment in which to engage during a recession and at a time when there are inflation worries. But the Government have cut training expenditure at times when it was most needed. A year or so ago, they even argued that they could afford to cut training investment because unemployment was falling. By the same mistaken logic, they could at least give themselves an excuse to make substantial increases in training expenditure now.
  We argue that expenditure on training and education is a precondition for increased growth, for the production of the sort of dividend that other politicians are looking for opportunities to spend. Training is not one of the things that can be paid for after the growth has been achieved. We cannot afford to wait. I maintain that we shall not get the levels of growth that are necessary unless we have a more skilled work force. That is why we argue that, if it should be necessary to add a penny to the rate of income
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  tax in order to provide an adequate training and education programme, we should be prepared to do so. We hope that it will not be necessary, but we are certainly not prepared to say that there would be no increase in taxation in any circumstances—even if the training and education needs could not otherwise be met.
  There are other areas of expenditure that will have to depend on the achievements of growth and the buoyancy of revenue. The kind of improvements in social benefits and in the health service that my right hon. and hon. Friends and I—and I assume, the official Opposition—would like to see will depend on achieving a successful economy and sustainable growth. Some expenditure—particularly expenditure on training and education—has to be undertaken in order to achieve growth. The public should not believe any party that claims it will never cut taxes, or which pretends that it can improve underfunded services while reducing taxation. I believe that the public probably realise that.
  6.59 pm
  Sir Richard Luce: I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith), who is a long—standing member of the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee, of which I am the newest member. I am glad also that he devoted much of his speech to Labour's failure to meet the effective challenge made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary in what was not only a colourful and entertaining but an effective speech, in which he exposed the growing contrast that the public perceive between the Government's economic policies and those of the Labour party.
  It is very much in my personal vested interest to maintain a good relationship with the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett), so I should not want to say anything that might upset her. However, she utterly failed to meet the challenge by my right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary when he referred to the various confusing statements made not only over the past few days but for weeks by the Leader of the Opposition, the hon. Member for Derby, South and a variety of shadow Cabinet members, in making high-priority public commitments in respect of their specific areas of responsibility. I hope that, when the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East (Mr. Brown) replies, he will make an effective answer to my right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary.
  Day by day, the Labour is coming out in its true colours, as the party of high spending and high taxation. Its pursuance of those policies when in office in the 1960s and 1970s was one of the main reasons why this country subsequently found itself in such profound economic difficulties. It is important that not only Parliament but the country should draw its own conclusions, and distinguish between party policies.
  There is no getting away from the fact that the hon. Member for Derby, South made a commitment that under Labour, there would be an early increase in pensions and child benefit, and that further commitments would play their part later. Other shadow Ministers have also made plain their own priorities. The first priority of the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) is education; of the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith), education and training; and of the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd), dramatic

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  increases in overseas aid. The right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East has also identified renewed growth in manufacturing investment as a key priority.
  The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) rightly drew attention to Labour's apparent commitment to renationalising the water industry, and to not proceeding with the Government's policy of privatisation if they achieved office in the next five years. Neither was taken into account in Labour's calculations.
  Let us compare the Conservative Government's 12 years in office with the Labour Administration of the 1970s. Putting aside the present downturn in the economic cycle, it is clear that, under the present Government, there has been sustained economic growth, and record investment—which is important for the country's future. Over a period of time, there has also been a reduction in direct taxation, and public expenditure has taken a declining share of gross domestic product.
  Although my party is sometimes a prisoner of its own rhetoric, there have also been substantial increases in carefully selected areas of public expenditure. In 1979, 1983, and thereafter, we gave the highest priority to turning the economy around, reducing the proportion of expenditure taken up by central Government, encouraging and proceeding with privatisation, and promoting greater competition within the economy. It was perfectly right to do that, but the public's perception is that we have paid no attention to other sectors of the public services. That is simply not true.
  As was said by my right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary, health and education expenditure as a proportion of GDP has increased from 4·5 per cent. in 1979 to more than 5 per cent. Expenditure on law and order has doubled in real terms. In the arts—the sector that I once served as a Minister—there has been an increase of more than 50 per cent. in real terms in expenditure on libraries. My right hon. and learned Friend also described the dramatic real increases in spending on roads and the infrastructure. So we are in a sense prisoners of our own rhetoric, and it is important to get the right perspective.
  The hon. Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Garrett) devoted much of his speech on describing how one can best scrutinise public expenditure and challenge Government targets and performance, and he was right to do so. However, that debate is not one which matters very much. The focus has been too much on the quantity of money put into the public services, and not enough on improving their quality using a given sum of money. Labour says that the answer is to throw more money at the public services, but we should be equally concerned with improving their quality.
  The Government's recent reforms and their establishment of executive agencies have resulted in discrete and clear-cut services. Targets are set for them, annual reports have to be made, and their performance can be judged by the House and by its Select Committees. That is a remarkably significant and important reform. I was glad that the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East said in a recent speech that Labour supports that development. It is important that it should do so. However, Labour spends little time suggesting ways in which the overall quality of public services, such as health or education, could be improved. Rather, Labour says that one should simply throw money at those services to solve their problems—which is quite wrong.
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  We must not underestimate the importance of the changes that are occurring in the civil service. By next year, 285,000 civil servants will be working within executive agencies in which their work, targets and performance can be properly scrutinised. For those agencies to be effective, they must enjoy the maximum degree of decentralisation and the greatest possible delegation of authority. The Treasury and the parent Departments must allow them to get on with the job and to carry on with their operations as effectively as possible, within the resources agreed. I was concerned by the results of a survey published by Price Waterhouse in March, which indicated that there is a feeling among those working in the agencies that there is still too much interference by Government Departments in their management. I hope that, when my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary replies to the debate, he will assure me that it is Government policy to delegate authority fully and properly within given resources.
  Given public demand, there will never be sufficient resources from the taxpayer for public services. There will always be pressure for more resources for health, education and roads. It is the duty of any Government to try to create a climate in which resources can be raised by the private sector and by other means to supplement the support of the taxpayer. In the past 12 years, private sector resources to charitable bodies have doubled in real terms, which is a great achievement. The Government should always be looking for new ways of raising extra resources to enable the public to play a fuller part in helping to pay for services for which, in the foreseeable future, it is less likely that the Government will be able to give much taxpayers' support.
  I welcomed the announcement that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor made in the Budget to increase the overall sum given to the Football Trust for sport and the arts. It is odd that part of the money given to the Football Trust should go to the arts, but I hope that that new venture will succeed. By making available about £60 million a year for sports and the arts, I hope that it will prove to be another way of adding extra resources for sectors that will otherwise receive little support from the taxpayer.
  That must not be seen as a substitute for a national lottery, which I should like to see introduced in the 1990s. In Europe, £12 billion is spent on lotteries. Ireland recently introduced a lottery, which makes available about £500 million for expenditure on the environment, sport and the arts. We should establish an independently run lottery system that allows for capital expenditure on improving sports facilities and on refurbishing theatres for the fabric of the nation, and for endowment funding of sport, the arts and the environment.
  We must make it clear that a lottery would not be a substitute for the Football Trust as it would operate on a larger scale and would raise much larger sums. I hope that, when my hon. Friend the Minister replies, she will be able to offer some encouragement for the introduction of a national lottery in the near future.
  I believe that the Government are on the right course for the management of the economy. We must stick firmly to reducing inflation and to returning to the successful period of sustained growth that we achieved in the 1980s.
  7.13 pm
  Mr. Thomas Graham: When the Tories were fighting the general election, I remember seeing all over the country a big Saatchi and Saatchi poster that said, "Labour isn't working". It showed a queue of people, which represented 1 million unemployed people. Today, more than 2 million are unemployed. What have the Government done to get this country back to work?
  Public expenditure is a dirty word to Tories. They have sold off the country's assets, and their privatisation policy has robbed the ordinary men and women who worked hard to make this country rich. The Government seem to go about like pirates, ripping off and selling off businesses that were owned by the country. I always thought that public expenditure was used for the good of the country —to improve the quality of life, to ensure that our elderly people receive decent pensions, that our children received a decent education and that our workers worked in decent, comfortable surroundings while producing the goods that make the country viable.
  The Government's obsession with the public sector has driven them to do exceptionally mad things. It does not matter who they hurt in their quest to dismantle the public sector. It does not matter whether elderly people are living in poverty. The Government have no compassion, and I shall give the House some examples of that later.
  Privatisation, instead of increasing jobs, invariably led to more job losses, higher prices and to the workers who make a company strong, healthy and attractive to buy being thrown on the scrap heap. People in the City, and the asset strippers, made more and more money.
  The price of food and phone charges have rocketed. The price of gas and electricity, which are essential to the quality of life of people on low incomes, has increased. The Government, the engine of free enterprise, should be renamed the "engine of the free giveaway to their friends". They have concentrated on stripping and dismantling industries to ensure their power base, with their people having the money and controlling each of us. The sale of the royal ordnance factories was a classic example of a company that was worth billions of pounds being given away for £140 million. The sale of the Rover Group was a pathetic disgrace. The gas and water industries were given away and the electricity industry is to be hived off to the Tories' friends.
  The classic error of the Government is their blatant attack on local government.
  Mr. Tony Marlow: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Graham: I am not prepared to give way at this stage.
  The Government's hatred of local government led to their decimation at the recent local elections.
  Mr. Marlow rose—
  Mr. Graham: Earlier, Tory Members were baying like dogs when my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) was trying to speak. I come from a hard school. If the hon. Gentleman continues to try to butt in, I will not give way. I will give way when I am ready.
  The Government's underfunding of local government has been one of their most tragic errors. Their underfunding of the national health service has cost them
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  by-election after by-election. The underfunding of local enterprise companies is incredible, as they say that they want to see healthy, trained and educated young people.
  What have public expenditure cuts in the national health service meant in Renfrewshire? Waiting lists are growing daily. Thousands upon thousands of people are desperate for not only operations but consultations to find out what is the matter with their health. Recently a friend of mine was suffering from a terrible pain. It took all kinds of meetings before it was discovered that he had a spot on his lung. [Interruption.]I see the hon. Member for Northampton, North laughing. It is no laughing matter. If he had any spots on his lungs and it took weeks on end to get an X-ray and an appointment with the consultant, he would not find it a laughing matter.
  Mr. Marlow: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Graham: No, I wish to continue.
  In local government we see that schools are falling down. In my area there are some very good schools, but others desperately need public expenditure. They need more money to make the schools better and a fit place for the children. In some schools rain comes in through the roof and the windows are not watertight or windproof. Local government is striving with its limited money to provide a service.
  Crime is raging throughout Britain. Since the Government came to office we have seen a horrific escalation of crime. There has been an escalation in drug taking. The Government peddle the idea that they are prepared to put more money into dealing with drugs, yet they do not provide more task force police to tackle drug abuse in our communities. I shall come back to that because I believe that public expenditure should be directed to problems which cause tremendous anxiety. In my constituency the police take so much time trying to prevent drug taking and catch drug pushers and dealers that other crimes such as burglary, car theft and crimes which feed the drug industry are rocketing. The police need more resources, yet the Government hide behind their hatred for local government and do not direct the resources necessary to allow our police to do an effective job.
  I remind the House of the consequences of cutting the number of home helps. The numbers have been cut because of the disastrous poll tax which has forced people to look more closely at budgets. The budget for services such as home helps has been cut. It makes me sick. In Strathclyde, as a result of the expenditure cuts and the lack of money for local councils, we are considering the possibility of cutting fares for the elderly.
  We have terrible problems of pollution. The Government should spend enough money to bring the water up to EC drinking standards. Our beaches are the worst in Europe. It is right for the people in the environmental world to call us the dirty old man of Europe. That is not something of which I am proud. It is a terrible day when one cannot walk along the promenade at Blackpool because one is frightened to get a whiff of the pollution, which could cause gastro-enteritis or some other illness. The Government should face up to their responsibilities and ensure that there is enough money to cope with the damage being done to Britain.
  Our infrastructure is falling down. If one walks about with one's eyes closed one will bump up against walls

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  which should have been fixed and replaced. For example, in my constituency there is a quarry with a road alongside which has a wall running beside it. The wall is always being broken down for many reasons. The local authority does not have the money to repair it. But the wall must be repaired so the local authority will repair it. But everything takes time because the Government keep savagely cutting and cutting.
  Recently in Scotland we had the launch of the local enterprise companies. My goodness, what a fiasco. The Minister walked about with a big smile and the television cameras came along. The LECs were supposed to regenerate local employment prospects. They were supposed to ensure that local kids would be re-educated and retrained to meet the new Europe of the 1990s. That was what it was all supposed to be about. But it means a 32 per cent. cut in the budget compared with the year before. In factual terms it means that 7,000 young people will not receive training. Adult training schemes will be cut by 17,000 places.
  A young man of 18 wrote a letter to me. The letter would bring tears to the eyes of any parent. It should bring tears to the Government. The young man was studying on one of the training programmes to be a plumber. We need plumbers. That young boy was thoroughly enjoying his plumbing training. He was on day release to a college. Incidentally, he was working not for a wage but for the buttons that the Government put up for these kids. Nevertheless, the young man was doing the training because he saw a possibility of becoming a plumber and getting into the big world, possibly down here to the south-east to build houses. Perhaps he could get a job fitting pipes for the moneyed folk who can afford central heating. But that young boy's job was terminated because the Government gave insufficient money to launch the local enterprise company and allow the young people in training to finish their courses.
  The training places of thousands of people have been cut. We must not forget the men and women who were training these young people to equip them and give them some chance to earn a living. I live in Scotland, where over 200,000 people are unemployed. The Government have fiddled the figures 28 times to bring the total down to 200,000. But I shall not quarrel with them. I simply remind them that unemployment is a scourge. If it came to their families, they would know what that scourge means. It means that families on low wages cannot afford holidays. I use the word holiday lightly. Many such families cannot afford to eat properly, look after themselves properly or heat their houses in the winter. Yet the children continue to strive to obtain training against all the obstacles that the Government put in their way.
  The young man to whom I referred is called Pat Campbell. He lives in Linwood. I shall come back to Linwood later. I have pleaded with Scottish Office Ministers to fund training at the same level as the previous year, with an increase for inflation, to ensure that the kids can finish their training. That would be to show compassion. Surely the Government should use their hearts for that. Surely those young people have a God-given right to finish their training. Surely young Pat Campbell could become a plumber instead of being cut off in the prime of his life. By goodness, he is no academic. He is just someone who makes Britain what it is well worth living for—a working-class young boy. Pat Campbell has been dumped.
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  I received a letter from an elderly, disabled woman who relies on an electric wheelchair. When I hear the Government saying how well funded the national health service is, it makes me sick. That woman cannot even go to the toilet without the help of her electric wheelchair; indeed, she can go nowhere without it. She wrote to tell me that her wheelchair broke down. It did not automatically stop but took the woman around in circles, which terrified her. However, someone managed to rescue her and take her home. When she contacted the health service to repair her wheelchair, and explained that it was essential for her to get to the toilet, the bedroom and the kitchen, she was given no priority.
  When I heard the Minister tonight, I felt that he was like a mugger robbing the old men and women to whom I refer, because that women had to wait five days before someone came from the health service to fix her wheelchair. The job took five minutes. She waited five days for a five-minute job, during which time her whole life was turned topsy-turvy. The health service is facing cuts, expenditure squeezing and all that crap which ensures that the quality of life for my elderly, disabled constituent has been put in jeopardy. No one can state that the health service is not under threat.
  This week is the anniversary of an event that hurts me—the closure of the car plant in Linwood. Some folk may not be familiar with that town, but I live up there. The town developed because of the car factory, which employed 9,500 men and women but closed 10 years ago, practically to the week. Where are those 9,500 workers now? Droves upon droves of them have never worked since the factory closed. Many are now dead and buried because they contracted illnesses through the savagery and imposition of unemployment and the fact that they were no longer able to work for a living and provide for their families. Those conditions destroy health, and I had many friends who were affected in that way.
  Ten years on, the Government have done nothing to introduce an alternative industry in Renfrewshire. If it were not for the local Labour—controlled council's efforts to attract industry, nothing would have been done. The way in which it goes about it must be punishing to body and soul. It is led by a fine young fireman, Owen Taylor. I do not say that he is a splendid young man simply because he is a Labour councillor. He looks at every opportunty to attract industry and jobs to the area. This week, he said to me, "Tommy, what are we going to do about the anniversary of the plant closure?"
  I see that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) is smiling. You should come to my constituency and you will not smile at the tenacity and will power of the people there. The people there will shake hands with you and probably buy you a pint, because I doubt whether you would buy them one. They, at least, have some compassion.
  Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd): Order. The hon. Gentleman must speak through the Chair.
  Mr. Graham: I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker.
  The closure of the factory and the loss of 9,500 jobs has caused difficulties in the community because we could never replace that many jobs. However, I am impressed by the tenacity of the local people, who hope that some day their young people will have the chance to go down the

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  road to work and that the young men will come home with pay and the old men will retire gracefully having earned at least some wages. That would be an honest and realisable dream if the Government were committed to stopping the 2 million unemployment figure from rising continually. But the Government have a mad obsession with reducing inflation. They do not care about people but keep inflation down at the expense of the dole queue.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) and I have another serious problem at the other end of my constituency in Inverclyde, where one of the finest marine engine building companies in the world is facing takeover. My hon. Friend has been fighting to keep that industry alive not only in Scotland but in this country and to protect the jobs of a fine collection of superb quality engineers, who made Scotland renowned throughout the world. He has challenged the Government to say something sensible about keeping that engine company going because to allow it to be taken over is ludicrous.
  Dr. Norman A. Godman: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks about the campaign in which we are engaged to retain the last marine diesel engine builder of its kind in the United Kingdom. The takeover of that company by Kvaerner Industries of Norway is particularly disgraceful and squalid because of the decision to remove from employment 12 young apprentices. As one who served an apprenticeship in a shipyard, I believe that the last people to be dismissed from a firm when it hits hard times should be the apprentices. Surely the Minister will agree that, with indentured apprenticeships, management has a moral obligation to ensure that such young lads are encouraged and enabled to complete their apprenticeships. The decision in Greenock is a disgrace. I am glad to say that my hon. Friend and I will continue to fight against such squalid managerial decision-making—the first of its kind that I have encountered in the United Kingdom shipbuilding industry.
  Mr. Graham: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that telling intervention. It was helpful to express the problems imposed by a Government who are reluctant to save this country's manufacturing capacity.
  The Inverclyde area has seen a rapid decline of a once great industry—shipbuilding. The Government seem to forget that we are an island and our marine capacity is being stripped. All kinds of foreign competitors—
  Mr. Marlow: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Would it be possible for you, Madam Deputy Speaker, to rescue the House from the hon. Gentleman, who has been boring us for 25 minutes with his personal reminiscences, some of which have little to do with public expenditure?
  Madam Deputy Speaker: I have been carefully reading the Opposition amendment and it seems that the hon. Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde (Mr. Graham) is within the terms of the amendment.
  Mr. Graham: I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for rescuing me from one of the most boring and tedious Members in the House.
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  Training is of vital importance. We would hope that our skilled engineers and experts who make the whole country work well—not just in London and the City—could compete with their counterparts in the rest of the world. In order to buy bread for food, we need workers to produce goods. If we shut down manufacturing industry, we shall have nothing to sell. We cannot sell a £1 note—somebody must produce goods to sell to make the £1 note.
  Public expenditure in my district sometimes gives me terrible worries. We have seen the rapid decline of all the factories in my region and the introduction of the Government's enterprise zone. I shall not mock the enterprise zone—I wish it success. Unfortunately, it is not a success because there is insufficient money to get it going properly. We have asked the Minister to spend money so that we can get the enterprise zone going and possibly get some work into the district, but our campaign seems to fall on deaf ears. Many local people work voluntarily to try to bring employment into the district, but if they do not receive the necessary finance from the Government, they will not be able to achieve anything.
  Lack of public expenditure in Scotland has caused massive housing problems. We have damp housing which is unfit to live in. The council does not have sufficient money to bring council houses up to the proper standard. Homelessness has escalated because there is insufficient money to deal with the problem. We need new homes that people can afford to buy and rent. We need jobs. We need to attack poverty and we need money to buy goods, which are not free. If someone takes shop goods for nothing, he will end up at the police station. Poverty will be eliminated only if the Government spend money, and they must realise that.
  I recently finalised a promise that I had made to my 13-year-old son. Some time ago he was in hospital for a while and I promised that I would buy him a bike as soon as he was fit to ride in the fresh air. I took my son over to the bike shop and got a shock to find that bikes cost £200 and more. I thought about a former Minister's nutcase statement—"Get on your bike" in search of a job—and wondered if he realised that a bike costs £200 or even £500. I nearly fell off my bike when I found out. I bought my son's bike with pleasure, but I thought about the many young people from families on low incomes. When I was a young boy, my family was on a low income, but I had a bike and could get about. If young people today are on low wages, what do they do? They can no longer have the pleasure of a bike if it costs £200.
  In Scotland, literally thousands of our men and women, and their families, leave our shores in search of work. We hear stories from Australia, New Zealand and America about how well those people are doing. They would love to come home and ask whether there will be any jobs for them if they do and whether we have got rid of this Government yet. We will get rid of them. There are literally thousands of Scots men and women who wish to come home. I wish to see them come home, and I believe that the only way to get them home is to get rid of the Tory Government. I am determined to see Scottish men, women, sons and daughters come home, enjoy our country and live a decent quality of life under a Government who care. I believe that a Labour Government would offer that.
  7.46 pm
  Mr. Quentin Davies: We were given a revealing performance by the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett), the shadow Chief Secretary. She was evasive and declined to take interventions. She was even more obviously evasive in the way that she declined to answer the questions that Conservative Members were able to put to her during her speech. She was markedly indecisive and apparently entirely unable or unwilling either to establish an order of priority in her policies or to set the so-called list of Labour party priorities—which has now become a list of a myriad of objectives—in order of relative importance. My right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary was absolutely right to remind her of Aneurin Bevan's well—known phrase about the language of socialism being the language of priorities. The hon. Member for Derby, South certainly traduced that language and abandoned that Labour party tradition this afternoon.
  While on the subject of language, I think that it is more than disingenuous to distinguish between an increase in taxation and an increase in employee national insurance contributions, when one plans to remove the ceiling on employee national insurance contributions, while not removing the ceiling on benefits. The last link between contributions and benefits would be abolished under the Labour party's present plans, and the last vestige of the Beveridge—
  Mr. Nicholas Brown: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Davies: I shall give way when I have completed my sentence, because that may allow the hon. Gentleman to make a more meaningful intervention.
  The last vestige of the traditional Beveridge system, the link between contributions and benefits—the concept of national or social insurance—would effectively be destroyed by what the Labour party proposes. We would end up with increases in taxation. Let us call a spade a spade: the Labour party is proposing an increase in income tax—nothing more, nothing less.
  Mr. Brown: If the hon. Gentleman is so convinced of the intellectual validity and respectability of his point, why did he not make it to the Government when they removed the ceiling on employers' national insurance contributions?
  Mr. Davies: As I always endeavour to do when speaking in the Chamber, I used my words advisedly. I said that the Labour party would remove the last vestiges; I did not imply that the Beveridge system still exists in its original integrity—of course it does not, and some of us may regret that more than others. I do not know that the Labour party has fully taken on board the purport of what was proposed this afternoon by the hon. Member for Derby, South and what has recently been proposed by other Labour party economic spokesmen and women.
  It was striking that the hon. Member for Derby, South displayed no clear understanding of the role of public expenditure in economic management. I have always believed that there are three respectable approaches to public expenditure management. One is the doctrine to which hon. Members on both sides of this House were devoted throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries—that public expenditure should be balanced in the same
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  year by public revenues. That is the doctrine of the balanced Budget. It was dear not only to people in this country but to people throughout the western world, including those in the United States until the new deal.
  There is no doubt that the disciplines of that doctrine had a positive effect. Under its influence, the western world underwent its initial great industrial transformation. Nevertheless, that was also a period of sharp fluctuations in the economy, and of deep recessions and slumps. There is no question but that the doctrine of the balanced budget contributed materially to those sharp fluctuations and to the depths of the slumps and recessions. In a recession, when incomes fall, naturally Government revenues fall too, as the tax take from the economy falls. If Governments respond to that by reducing their expenditure, demand is further reduced in the economy, and the slump will be deeper.
  Over the past 50 or 60 years, the view has been taken that the doctrine of the strict, balanced Budget can be economically damaging when pedantically applied. There was a time, from the 1930s to the 1960s, when a new doctrine, a new orthodoxy, emerged: that it was the responsibility of Government to adopt proactive and counter-cyclical policies. When there was a recession they were to increase their spending deliberately, borrowing so as to be able to do so. When times improved and the economy boomed, and incomes and therefore tax revenues began to rise again, Governments would reduce expenditure and use some of the balance of that revenue to repay the borrowing.
  This was the classic Keynesian doctrine of deficit spending. We have learnt that that doctrine was not very effective in achieving its objectives, either. It, too has been shown to be essentially not a counter-cyclical or anti-cyclical policy but a pro-cyclical policy. Instead of increasing stability, it tends to increase the volatility of an economy. Instead of reducing the depth of recessions and the extent of inflationary booms, this doctrine tends to exacerbate them.
  The reason for that is simple. Unfortunately, it is not possible for any man or woman consistently to second-guess the economy, any more than it is possible for anyone consistently to second-guess the individual markets that make up an economy, or for any mortal consistently and correctly to predict the weather.
  As a result, by the time a Government have decided that recessionary conditions have arisen and it is appropriate to start deficit spending, the turn in the economy may well already have taken place, so that, when the spending comes through, instead of mitigating the recession it makes the boom more inflationary. That is especially true of investment spending, because of the long lead time between the decision to engage in it, the identification of the right objects of the expenditure, and the increase in demand which it brings about.
  There are at least two other problems with Keynesian deficit spending, as our experience since the second world war has shown. First, it is in the nature of Governments —I fear that perhaps it is in human nature—that the increase in spending in a recession will always be much greater than the reduction in spending in a boom. The net effect of such intervention is therefore inflationary. We have, of course, suffered considerably from that over the past 20 or 30 years. The second factor is that, if it is known that Governments intervene deliberately and proactively in that way, agents in the economy will anticipate such

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  action and discount it. The theory of rational expectations has taught us a lot about that, so we have become wiser in that respect, too.
  I believe that the right policy is the third policy, which has been explicitly adopted by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is not to adopt a proactive, counter-cyclical, or a proactive, pro-cyclical policy on public expenditure, but to adopt a policy that is neutral with regard to the business cycle. Such a policy looks through the business cycle and allows the operation of what are known as automatic stabilisers. For example, in a recession, because welfare spending tends to increase Government spending all other things being equal, thiswill naturally tend to rise, whereas revenues will tend to fall. Hence, a deficit is likely to arise.
  Mr. Jimmy Wray: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us where all this theoretical philosophy comes in, and what it does, for people in Scotland and the rest of Britain? Does he realise that 10 million people are living in poverty now, 2·5 million of them children? What are we to tell people who lose their homes, whose homes are repossessed-there are now 24,000 of them in Scotland and England? What are we to tell the 25,000 small business people who lose their businesses? When the Government took power in 1979, there were 344 small business insolvencies in Scotland. The latest available figure, for 1990, is 4,756 No doubt the figure for 1991 will break all records How are we to explain to all those people, and to the 70,000 people on waiting lists—
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order This is an intervention, not a speech. The hon. Member for Stamford and Spalding (Mr. Davies) must be allowed to make his speech in his own way.
  Mr. Davies: The hon. Gentleman has asked me a series of questions, but they all have the same answer, so it is easy to deal with his intervention. There is not and never will be a final solution that will obliterate all human poverty and disappointment, but there is a great difference between sound and unsound economic management. Unsound economic management will engender far more human unhappiness than sound economic management. If the hon. Gentleman neglects some of the principles of sound economic management—I fear that, if the Labour party in its present state of mind ever came to power, that is what it would do—the problems to which he has drawn attention would be exacerbated.
  The Government have been on the right lines in adopting what I call a neutral policy and allowing the operation of the automatic stabilisers which inevitably mean that we tend to move into fiscal deficit in a recession and to run a surplus in a boom. That has happened over the past few years.
  I have set out three intellectually and historically respectable approaches to the management of current expenditure. But there is a fourth approach—spend, spend, spend, regardless of the state of the trade cycle and of the effect on the economy. This approach involves going on spending until one runs up against the final obstacle and exhausts either the ability to tax or the ability to borrow. That policy has been practised in many parts of the world—notably in Latin America, generally with disastrous consequences, to which I should like to draw
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  the attention of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Wray). Countries that were prosperous before the war, such as Peru, Uruguay and Argentina, have been ruined by this policy.
  In this country, there is a well-founded suspicion about the Labour party. When it was in power in the 1970s, it too adopted the policy, and went on spending until it ran out of borrowing power. That is why the International Monetary Fund had to come here in 1976, like a team of official receivers entering a bankrupt company. That is exactly what it was. There is considerable and justified disquiet about the Labour party, and it existed before the great confusion engendered by its statements in the past two weeks.
  Mr. George J. Buckley: The hon. Gentleman used the phrase "spend, spend, spend". The Chief Secretary said that the Government have greatly increased public expenditure. Does that show that Government policy is to spend, spend, spend? The hon. Gentleman spoke about good and bad economic administration. Would he say that the Japanese and German economies are badly run? Those countries each have a good balance of payments, while ours is excessive and rising.
  Mr. Davies: Japan has a healthy fiscal surplus, and to that extent we have the same fiscal stance as the Japanese. The German economy is coming out of surplus because its fiscal and balance of payments surpluses are disappearing. However, that is a separate matter and it is not germane to my argument.
  It is plain that the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) does not subscribe to any of the first three classic approaches to public expenditure management that I have outlined. Twice, she specifically protested that the Government had run a surplus during the boom years of 1988 and 1989. Running a surplus would have been a natural consequence of the Keynesian approach or the neutral approach of which I spoke. Is the hon. Lady's approach the fourth approach—it is certainly not a balanced Budget—or is it a new model, a new solution, to the problems that have fascinated those who are responsible for public finance for at least 150 years?
  In the past week, I have begun to suspect that Labour has invented a new fifth model, which I shall call the theory of random numbers. An Opposition Member thinks of a number during a television interview, and one of his colleagues thinks of another number the next day in the House. A third colleague will then try to clear up the mess by coming up with another number in a television interview a day or two later. That is Labour's contribution to the vital matter of public expenditure policy. The figure of £20 billion has simply been thrown out, and the hon. Member for Derby, South signally failed to justify it or to relate the figure in any way to Britain's capacity to finance it.
  The British people will not hand over Britain's economic management to a party which obviously cannot decide between competing objectives and cannot establish clear priorities, which cannot weigh up the consequences of its proposed actions and will not state simply and clearly its concept of public expenditure within economic management. Labour no longer knows what it is saying or doing.
  8.3 pm
  Mr. Bruce George: The speech by the hon. Member for Stamford and Spalding (Mr. Davies) was in two parts. The first part was a serious academic analysis and I tried hard to follow his argument. The second part degenerated into political knockabout. That was because, in the last period of this Government, he seeks to get himself elevated.
  The hon. Gentleman castigated the Labour party as some sort of replica banana republic, using phrases such as "spend, spend, spend". He should look at the serious work being carried on in the Labour party. I could take the criticisms more seriously if his party, which has had well over a decade in Government, had bequeathed to society an efficient economy flowing with goods and respected abroad. It would help if unemployment were diminishing, and we had healthy public services and a healthy private sector. The fantasy propounded by Conservatives does not in any way accord with the facts of our economy and industry.
  One would hardly think from what we have heard that growth has been unspectacular and that we have had two, perhaps three, recessions. In my constituency, unemployment is double the rate that it was when the Government came to office in 1979. I represent a constituency in the midlands which has historically been in the forefront of manufacturing. Britain has lost 2 million manufacturing jobs, and many of those were in the industrial west midlands. In view of the way that the economy has plummeted, lectures by Conservative Members are most unfair.
  Parliamentarians deal in a disgraceful way with issues such as this. We read in the text books about parliamentary control of this and that, but we have abysmally abdicated our responsibilities for controlling public expenditure. Despite reform of the Select Committee system, the National Audit Office and parliamentary procedures, in terms of controlling the Executive, this is probably the weakest legislature in the democratic world.
  There is growing legislative power in eastern Europe, and the countries there are well ahead of us in controlling their Executives. I have been to conferences on parliamentary control and it is with acute embarrassment that I tell parliamentarians from other countries how supine we are in dealing with the Executive and how seldom we vote on serious issues like this. This matter is of all-party interest and we ought to get to grips with control of expenditure. I am a member of the Select Committee on Defence, which is one of the better Select Committees, but the way in which we seek to deal with defence expenditure is lamentable.
  Mr. Peter L. Pike: Is my hon. Friend worried that the increasing amount of legislation in the last few years has given great powers to Secretaries of State to take action without reference to the House? That increases the tendency of which my hon. Friend speaks.
  Mr. George: I entirely agree. I have criticised the Government, but much of my criticism could be levelled at hon. Members. If we got together on an all-party basis and took a more serious interest in the minutiae of estimates and expenditure, we would be able to do a much better job. Select Committee dealing with expenditure are no more than amiable seminars.
  Dr. Godman: My hon. Friend speaks about the weakness of Parliament. Does he agree that the continuing weakness of this place is made worse by the growing power of political decision makers in Brussels and Strasbourg?
  Mr. George: I partly agree with my hon. Friend. Even if we were able to extricate ourselves from Europe we would not be able to control our Executive in the sphere of public expenditure. I welcome the way in which the expenditure plans are now being published—it is a great step forward—but that in no way increases our control.
  Public expenditure reflects differences in political philosophy. I was in Parliament during the 1970s. It was not an idyllic period to hold office. The Labour Government had no majority and we were in the middle of the oil shocks. It was exceedingly difficult to manage the economy in those difficult years, but lessons have been learnt. Any Government who offered limitless expenditure to improve services left, right and centre in a pre-election period would rightly be diminished in the eyes of the electorate. Any party aspiring to office must act in a responsible manner in opposition if it is to be taken seriously. Despite the criticisms that I have heard from Conservative Members, the Opposition are being realistic and are not seeking to enter into an auction with the Government. We are seeking realistically to present to the electorate the way in which we shall seek to manage the economy in the future.
  The effect of Government policies in my constituency is unemployment at 10 per cent. and rising. Unemployment in the west midlands rose last month by 12,000 to 7·7 per cent. I regret that we may be returning to the situation that existed in the early 1980s, when, almost every time the telephone rang in the hon. Member's office, it was feared that it would be a personnel manager or a trade union representative telephoning to say that there were to be major redundancies or a factory closure. There has been a vast increase in the number of bankruptcies. I want to see the small business sector survive, but the small entrepreneur, allegedly well represented by Conservative Members, is going through a difficult period and suffering greatly.
  Training is surely the key to our future economy. A few weeks ago, I visited an excellent training scheme run by the National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders which was being closed by the local training and enterprise council because money was tight. The scheme was worth preserving and I spoke to management and trainees who were very upset that it was about to bite the dust. Thankfully, the people who were losing their places in that scheme were to be absorbed elsewhere.
  From the press today, I see that the Government are considering stepping up the number of jobs deliberately created in order to mop up more of the unemployed in this pre-election period. The Government have closed schemes, in some places irrevocably, but perhaps in the next few months new schemes will emerge as the Government, in their electoral panic, seek to create jobs.
  I want to dwell on one area which shows the difference in philosophy between the Government and the Opposition, and that is the sphere of police manpower and expenditure. A report by the National Audit Office on promoting value for money in provincial police forces says:
  "Spending on the police has risen by nearly 50 per cent. in real terms from 1979–80 to the present."

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  I welcome that. I welcome the fact that over a 10-year period there has been an increase of some 10 per cent. in the number of police officers. According to my rather limited mathematics, that means an increase of 1 per cent. each year. But in terms of output, the situation is serious. I do not want to involve the hon. member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) in my political speech, but we went on an all-party delegation to the Home office a year ago seeking additional police officers. I remember the occasion vividly, but for the wrong reasons.
  If one looks not at expenditure but at output in my area and that represented by the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills, one sees that crime increased by 23 per cent. last year. Even though there has been a significant increase in expenditure, it has not, in H division of the west midlands, Walsall, been reflected in any significant increase in manpower. The way in which the police have been compelled to cope with a vast increase in crime has been grossly inadequate. I want to see more public expenditure, but it must be public expenditure properly applied. An increase in public expenditure unrelated to intelligent and sensitive decision-making is anathema to me.
  I fear that the Government's hostility to the public services is partly reflected in the way in which they deal with the police. The Government have not sought to privatise the police force directly, but they are doing so indirectly by allowing the private security industry to burgeon and to assume more and more responsibilities that should be the exclusive responsibility of the official police force. Now we have two police forces, one accountable to Parliament and to Ministers and the other accountable to no one except shareholders, should they exist. The consequence is a private police force that is more numerous than the official police force, but where efficiency is low, criminality is high and accountability is zero. I fear that that is the way in which the Government approach the question of public order. More money has been spent, but, bearing in mind the enormous increase in the work load, the Government have gone about things the wrong way.
  Like many hon. Members, I received a circular letter from my opponent, no doubt a wheeze of Tory central office, attacking Labour Members on education. The Government will reap the rewards of their education policy. I will not dwell on the national health service because the Government will hear quite enough about that in the obituaries after the Monmouth by-election.
  I looked carefully at the departmental report of the Ministry of Defence in the Government's expenditure plans. Its figures belong to "Alice in Wonderland". The Government's problems in defence matters are enormous, far worse than the problems in other Departments, for a number of reasons. First, defence expenditure is falling and the Government do not know how to reconcile the demands for a peace dividend—and the enormous pressure upon them from the Treasury—with an uncertain international situation where there are so many imponderables such as in the middle east, the Soviet Union and eastern Europe, where we do not know how they will develop.
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  Civil servants in the Ministry of Defence are being compelled to make cuts that prudence dictates they should treat more cautiously than the Treasury is allowing them to do. Decisions that might be irrevocable should not be taken at this moment. We can plan for what may well be a substantial decrease in defence expenditure, but at the moment it would be wise not to make any precipitate decisions.
  The Ministry of Defence has tried to go down the route of greater competition, contractorising, reorganising and setting up management surveys, but the end product has not been sufficient to match commitments and resources. Thank God that we were successful in the Gulf and that casualties were so low, but I fear that the corollary to the Government not wanting to appear to be cutting defence expenditure in the 1980s was that our forces were extended beyond the limits of their capability. Had the 100-hour war in the Gulf been more serious, I fear that some of the consequences of that policy would have been dramatically and disastrously exposed.
  I am a member of the Select Committee on Defence which visited Kuwait a month ago just after the conflict ended. We all know that, in order to run 150 Challenger tanks—not the finest tanks—effectively in the desert during that war meant using virtually every single tank that we had in west Germany for spare parts.
  Our guys and women in the Army, Air Force and Navy did magnificently, but they were let down, although thankfully that fact was not exposed. There has been a policy of cutting back on infrastructure and logistics and of not replacing worn-out equipment and cancelling projects. Fortunately, we were not exposed because of the failures of that policy and I rejoice in that. The Government face a dilemma; if they are to cut expenditure we will have to cut commitments. It is a great dilemma —trying to maintain commitments and to maintain the fiction that nothing has changed, while defence expenditure has fallen under this Government from a percentage of GNP in the mid-fives, to a percentage in the mid-fours.
  The pre-election period may be short, but it is more likely to be lengthy, and it is a period in which political parties will have to explain their philosophies and policies—I hope that they will do so realistically. The electorate is sophisticated and any political party that seeks to convince the electorate that it is able to resolve all our problems instantaneously will be quite rightly rejected.
  In the past couple of years, the Labour party has done a great deal of work to present its policies and elaborate upon them—far more work than is often done when in opposition. When we eventually face the electorate, we will have prioritised. It will not be a case of one person announcing his or her priorities and the Government getting their civil servants to work out how much it will cost. We shall have to prioritise. The failures of the Government and the economy will not be remedied overnight and any political party that seeks to pretend that that is so will be very foolish. I am delighted that the Labour party is not likely to fall into that category.
  8.21 pm
  Mr. Nicholas Budgen: I should like to take up the last argument of the hon. Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George), who said that he believes that our activities in the next few months will

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  increasingly be devoted to explaining the differences between the philosophies of the various parties in the House. I shall confine my remarks to two matters: first, to offer a few reflections on growth and the extent to which it can be created by Governments; and, secondly to say a few words on interest rates and the dispute which is arising between the Governor of the Bank of England and the Chancellor.
  May I start on my first point by complimenting the Chair upon the way in which those who have contributed to this debate have been called? We have had a wide-ranging debate, illustrating the inexorable pressures on public expenditure. There was a dramatic peroration to the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Sir I. Lloyd). As I listened to him, I reflected on the fact that my right hon. Friend the Member for Shoreham (Sir R. Luce) sits for the seat which was once represented by the Whig playwright, Sheridan.
  On one occasion, Sheridan got over-excited in the House—he drew a dagger and began to direct it towards his heart. Fortunately, the House was not overawed by that somewhat histrionic gesture. The equivalent of my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow) was sitting on the opposite Tory Benches. As Sheridan's knife fell to the ground in the dramatic last moments of the scene, the Tory opposite said to him, "Hey, you've dropped your penknife." Some of the force of the drama diminished in the face of those laconic remarks.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Havant demonstrated that even Tories can from time to time add to the pressure for public expenditure. However, I thought that the pressures upon public expenditure were demonstrated most dramatically by the hon. Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde (Mr. Graham) and in the intervention from his hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Wray). Each and every member for the Opposition has demonstrated their desire for massive increases in public expenditure in this debate. I am sure that in the course of the next few months it will become plain that the grass roots of the Labour party want more and more public expenditure. They are perfectly entitled to demand that. However, it will not do for the leaders of the Labour party to say that all that expenditure will, in substance, be paid for out of growth.
  The Tory party asks, quite reasonably, how will it be paid for? Is it going to be paid for by increased taxation? Are the Opposition going to borrow more, and will that lead to higher interest rates? Or will they print money? "No," says the Labour party, "in substance, we will deal with it by growth."
  Growth has been the great cop-out of post-war politics. You, Madam Deputy Speaker, will remember the Wilson and George Brown dash for growth, which was brought to a dramatic halt by Mr. Roy Jenkins, one of the best and most iron of Chancellors. You will also recollect Lord Barber's dash for growth between 1972 and 1974. To some extent, that was checked by the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) in 1976. However, it would be too much to hope for that British politics should have learnt from those few mistakes.
  You will also recollect, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the next dash for growth was in 1978, when the predecessors of G7—I think that they called themselves G5—made a worldwide co-ordinated dash for growth with a universal reduction in interest rates. That had a major
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  effect, in that it had to be corrected in the massive depression between 1979 and 1982. That was not good enough, because by 1985 the Tories had forgotten their mistakes and from 1986 to 1988 there was another dash for growth, although it was never so described.
  While there was the appearance of very much higher growth of between 4 and 5 per cent., my right hon. Friend the then Chancellor used to keep on saying that he had cracked it, and that there was an economic miracle-low inflation at about 3 per cent. and high rates of growth at 5 per cent. He never mentioned that he was allowing the money supply to increase by more than 20 per cent. per annum. Those high levels of growth were merely the early signs that he had over-expanded the economy by an excessive increase in the money supply.
  Governments may come and Governments may go, but those of us who received part of our political education from, for example, Lord Joseph, remember how compellingy he argued that it was the duty of Government to hold the ring and, most of all, to ensure that money was sound, but it was neither their duty nor was it given to Government to create growth, that that is created by individuals, who may create growth from time to time in the most unpropitious circumstances.
  Ironically, when circumstances become more pro-pitious—for instance, after a major increase in labour productivity because of our trade union reforms, or more efficient capital because of the abolition of exchange controls—they may decide that they do not want necessarily to go on making more money. They may come to the conclusion that they have made enough.
  The evidence is clear that, year in, year out, the British economy will provide no more than 2· per cent. of real growth. If the Labour party intends to claim at the hustings that it can increase public expenditure out of growth. a 2·5 per cent. real increase in public expenditure will not be enough. When its leaders go up to Scotland, they will find the hon. Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde at the back of the hall, asking, "What are you going to do about my hospital? What are you going to do about my industry? What are you going to do about this, and what are you going to do about that?" That will become the cry.
  Will this 2·5 per cent. per annum be enough for all that? It will not bring in the new Jerusalem, or make it possible to transform Britain into a fairer or more equal and prosperous place. If the Labour party wants to increase public expenditure, which it is perfectly entitled to do, it must campaign on the basis that it will be done either by higher taxes or else by higher borrowing, since 2·5 per cent. growth per annum will not do the trick.
  Mr. Nicholas Brown: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene. He has a cult following on our side of the House, and I freely confess to being a member of it. I enjoy his contributions to our debates. I was with him right up to his last point. The Labour party does not intend to make a dash for growth. We intend to make slow, steady and orderly progress and to use the fruits of that progress for public expenditure. Our tax policies have already been clearly and carefully set out. There is no hidden or further agenda, as the hon. Gentleman tries to imply.
  Mr. Budgen: I hope that I have dealt with that point. I fear that, under the pressure of the demands from, in

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  particular, a very large caucus in Scotland, promises will be made that more can be delivered than a growth of 2·5 per cent. per annum can supply. If such a promise is made, that is the way to disaster.
  May I say a few words about what the popular papers describe as a dispute between the Governor of the Bank of England and the Chancellor of the Exchequer about reducing interest rates? I am one of those who would wish greater independence to be exercised by the Governor of the Bank of England, but not because I want this country to go into any form of Euro-bank.
  I want this country to return to a freely floating exchange rate. When we return to it, I can see that there will be a question as to where the discipline in our economy resides. I believe that a more independent bank will be the answer to that problem. We read tonight about the Governor's speech yesterday. It seems to me, having obtained a copy of the speech, that it has been somewhat hyped up by the press. None the less, the Governor suggests that he is sceptical about further reductions in interest rates.
  I think that on this issue the balance of argument is in favour of the Government further reducing interest rates as quickly as possible. The Government have got themselves into a most appalling jam by having joined the exchange rate mechanism. We are at the whim of foreign speculators in currencies. We are forced to have as the principal determinant of the level of our interest rates the position that our currency has in the exchange rate mechanism. We have also advanced fallacious arguments about the circumstances in which we can reduce interest rates.
  The Chancellor keeps saying, "We'll be able to reduce interest rates when the retail price index comes down," but that has nothing whatever to do with current economic conditions. If the RPI is falling—I believe that it will fall substantially in the near future—that has nothing to do with current economic conditions: it is a reflection of the squeeze that was imposed some 18 months ago.
  Therefore, in deciding what should be the current level of interest rates, we ought to look at the most up-to-date statistics. We ought to see what is the state of credit in the economy now, not what the state of credit in the economy was 18 months ago. I believe that the three most important indicators point to the necessity of a further reduction in interest rates.
  The first is broad money. You, Madam Deputy Speaker, will recollect that that used to be the complete bible for the Conservative Government. Between 1979 and 1982, it used to be the standard to which every economic decision was referred. We have torn up that bible, but I have retained a copy for my own use.
  It is plain that broad money, which was once increasing by 21 per cent., is now increasing only by just over 7 per cent. That suggests a considerable credit crunch. Secondly, the Government's narrow money indicator is M0. They believe that narrow money ought to be increasing by between 0 per cent. and 4 per cent. per annum. It is now increasing by over 2 per cent. per annum. When one recollects that at the height of the boom in 1988 narrow money was increasing by 8 per cent., one can see the extent to which there has been a real reduction in credit.
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  My third point relies on the most recent figures for bank lending. At the height of the boom, bank lending was increasing by between £5 billion and £6 billion per month. It was a massive boost to house prices and asset prices. In the last recorded month, bank lending increased by only £700 million—a massive reduction. Those three factors —together, I agree, with anecdotal evidence—show that there is a credit crunch.
  The Government are entitled to say, "We want to reduce inflation." Theoretically, it is possible to reduce inflation so fast and so fiercely that money appreciates in value against other assets, but if people are to adjust to a reduction in inflation, what is surely required is to allow it to be done gradually, as was envisaged in 1979 by the medium-term financial strategy.
  There is every evidence that the Government, simply because of having been caught in the ridiculous ERM, are, if anything, reducing credit too fast. Therefore, the balance of argument is in favour of a further reduction in interest rates at this time. That does not mean, of course, that we will not have to have an increase in interest rates later perhaps. All I am saying is that the best and most up-to-date evidence of what is happening at present and not what happened 18 months ago shows that there is a credit crunch which should be relieved by further reductions in interest rates.
  8.40 pm
  Mr. Peter L. Pike: I was spurred to take part in the debate by the opening speeches. The Chief Secretary seemed to indicate that the Government have run out of steam and are fast running out of time. As the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) progressed, there was a determined attempt by Conservative Members to disrupt it and to distort the proposals of the Labour party on growth, taxation and spending.
  I want to comment on a few of the many issues covered in the debate. When he is replying, I want the Financial Secretary to tell us what will happen to the funding of local government expenditure next year and how poll tax bills will be kept down. He will say that the Chancellor indicated in his Budget that the percentage of local government funding to be met nationally was being changed, but one has to recognise that there will be massive increases in local government expenditure, arising from community care and other things to be introduced next year, as well as inflation and other factors. It is already clear that, if poll tax bills are to be kept anywhere near this year's level, we are talking of substantial additional government funding.
  When the Government introduced the poll tax, they claimed that it was to help the pensioner living alone, as opposed to the family next door where, there might be three or four wage earners. The Government now have to answer why, in constituencies like mine, the single pensioner will be paying double the amount paid under the rates whereas, because of low rateable values, three or four people living next door will pay much less. Hundreds of my constituents are very angry about what the Government have done.
  Growth is important in relation to what a Labour Government would do. The Government's motion talks of reducing expenditure in relation to the gross national product. We want to see public expenditure and value for

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  money, but we recognise that growth will play an important part in our plans. We have grave regrets because the Government have failed to recognise the importance to the nation of manufacturing industries that have suffered so considerably in recent years. In the latest recession, there are severe attacks on the service sector, but again the recession is affecting manufacturing industries very badly.
  Lancashire is very dependent on manufacturing jobs, with aerospace providing major employment. British Aerospace at Preston has announced 3,000 redundancies. The same group has also announced some 400 redundancies at the royal ordnance factory at Blackburn. Yet that company has probably benefited more than almost any other from the policies of the Government. It has benefited from three privatisations—its own, the privatisation of the Rover Group and the privatisation of the royal ordnance factories which are under the British Aerospace umbrella. It has had assistance with launch aid for the airbus and it is heavily dependent on Government contracts for defence. Yet, while it is announcing massive redundancies, large parts of its work are being contracted overseas.
  When I raised the matter with the Minister for Industry he said that it is not a matter for him but that it is up to market forces and is purely a matter for the company; he said that he did not intend to intervene. In another letter on another issue, he told me that aerospace was not an industry of great national importance. If the Government regard aerospace, which is high-technology, modern industry as of little national importance, that shows why we have suffered so much industrial decline under the 12 years of Conservative Government since 1979. The Government must take a much more positive approach to industry in their final period in office. Certainly it is something that our policy will recognise.
  In our amendment we recognise the importance of training and investment in people. When one talks of training, one has to link with it the importance to the nation of education. Investment in people through education and training is the biggest single investment that the country can make. One sad fact is that our record in education and training is abysmal and appalling compared with the performance of other countries with which we are competing. It is no wonder that we are doing so badly.
  In regard to the national health service, hospitals in my constituency are in the process of trying to opt out. There will be strong resistance. When the matter was before the council, a unanimous resolution by all parties, including the Conservatives, condemned the opt-out proposals for the Burnley, Pendle and Rossendale health authority.
  Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman: The hon. Gentleman should be more accurate. There is no question of any hospital opting out of the national health service. Hospitals may become hospital trusts. Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the mess that the London hospitals have got into is on their own heads? Hospitals in the north-west, particularly those in Lancaster, are extremely well run. Although we may apply for trust status, we have no intention of laying off staff. Will not the hon. Gentleman join me in saying that it is high time London put its house in order and that we in the north-west got the money that London has had too much of in the past?
  Mr. Pike: The hon. Lady fails to recognise the funding shortages that exist in the north-west region. I made a sad
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  mistake in giving way to her. When I agree with something that the hon. Lady says, that day will go down in history. I went to Lancaster community health council earlier this year because the hon. Lady and the other Conservative Members from that area refused to go.
  I wanted to make a point about Christie hospital, which has opted out—1 will use that phrase although Conservative Members object. Christie hospital, the major cancer hospital in the north-west and a hospital of international reputation, has made it clear that it will give priority for treatment to patients living in district health authority areas that can give the hospital financial support. If an authority can pay towards the opening of another ward, the hospital will give the people of that area preferential treatment. That is appalling.
  My health authority, which has had to consider the closure of the third hospital in Burnley within three years, cannot afford to give money to Christie for another ward. That is appalling discrimination. It means that patients will not be treated on the basis of need, a point that the Prime Minister was trying to make and that was hotly disputed only last week, but will be treated only on the basis of the area in which they live and whether that health authority can assist the hospital.
  I shall deal with two other issues, the first of which is rural housing. The documents state that there will be additional provision for housing associations in rural areas, but they fail to recognise the major need for affordable housing which local authorities in rural areas must be able to tackle. Housing in rural areas is a great problem and the Government must give more assistance to tackle it.
  Secondly, I shall deal with overseas aid. I do so because Conservative Members have attacked that issue several times in this debate. We have talked about the 0·7 per cent. of gross national product which is the target figure at which we should aim. During the Government's period in office, the figure has dropped from above 0·5 per cent. by about 0·2 per cent. to just more than 0·35 per cent. That is an appalling record. If they do nothing else, the current problems in Bangladesh and the problems with the Kurdish people should bring home to us that we have a responsibility to tackle problems not only in this country, but elsewhere in the world where there is poverty, starvation and other problems that could be solved if nations such as ours did a little more to tackle them. It is right for us to strive towards the 0·7 per cent. target. We should not wash our hands of these problems and a Labour Government would try to solve them as rapidly as possible.
  8.51 pm
  Mr. Ian Taylor: My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) made a speech in classic style, the excellent first half of which I endorse. I am saddened that he continued to speak when I thought that he had sat down. Once again he seemed not to have read my contributions to the debates about the benefits of joining the exchange rate mechanism, but I shall ensure that he gets copies of Hansard containing the relevant sections. My hon. Friend will then understand that many of his worries about monetary policy and the lack of discipline would have been solved if we had joined the ERM in 1985.

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  The first part of my hon. Friend's speech was extremely good and pertinent and I am sad that the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) was not present to hear it. However, I am delighted that the hon. Member who will reply for the Opposition—the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East (Mr. Brown)—enjoyed it and took note.
  We are not saying that there will not be extra revenues from growth—of course there will. The hon. Member for Derby, South was wrong to accuse us of saying otherwise. However, we are saying that that level of growth will be insufficient to meet the expenditure plans—all of them priorities—that the Labour party has already announced. The revenues from growth alone will be insufficient, no matter what the level of growth. There will always be more top priorities for the Labour party.
  The question is, to which priorities will the Labour party be truly attached, or, if to them all, by how much will taxes increase under a Labour Government? That is a reasonable request to put to Labour Front-Bench spokesmen and we should be told what will happen.
  The reality is—the electorate should listen carefully, and Labour Front-Bench spokesmen might also benefit from listening—that if the Labour party is incapable of generating from growth the money required for its priority plans, it will have to play on the fiscal level. Regardless of the uncertain buoyancy of tax revenues and the other issues about which I could argue if I had the time, the public should be aware that the Labour party will be forced to increase taxes.
  It might have been possible for Labour to say that it would merely remove the upper limit on national insurance, but it has already said that and it has already precommitted the revenues from that to two of its top, top priorities. The other issues that are part of the national debate can be funded only by an increase in the basic rate of taxation. The Labour party should forget the top rate of taxation—that yield will not solve its problems. But let the top rate taxpayer be warned that top rates will increase. The hon. Member for Derby, South made that clear today. That is a warning, but basic rate taxpayers should take particular notice because they will be the ones chiefly to be hit, and they will be hit twice: by the national insurance upper limit being removed and by the increase in the basic rate. There are 2·1 million basic rate taxpayers, but 3·8 million people will be affected by the increase in the national insurance limit. Therefore, a significant proportion of the population should be careful about the prospect of the return of a Labour Government.
  The hon. Member for Derby, South did not seem too concerned. She concentrated on the average of various categories of people such as teachers. They may be the average, but that implies that a considerable number of people earning above the average in professions that we regard highly will be hit—doctors, teachers and many others whom the Labour party like to think are high on its list of priorities, but who are certainly high in our esteem. Under Labour's new tax plans, those people will lose at least several hundred pounds more than they would have paid under the community charge. I hope that they will take careful note of that fact.
  Another reason why taxes will have to rise under Labour is that Labour will voluntarily forgo the proceeds of privatisation which, under Government plans, are
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  expected to bring in about £5·5 billion in each of the next three years. The Labour leader thought that the growth rate under a Labour Government would generate £20 billion over five years, but he is prepared to forgo three times £5·5 billion.
  Labour's sums start not to add up if they are considered carefully, but there is worse—specific pledges within the lifetime of a Labour Government to renationalise. The cost of renationalising the national grid, for example, is difficult to estimate, but it could be half a billion pounds or much more. There are many other estimates of what Labour Back-Benchers—although Labour Front—Bench spokesmen are rather coy about it—would like to renationalise and those costs would soak up the growth balance. On top of that, there are spending pledges or social commitments which will pre-empt any growth. The minimum wage would be introduced up front before growth had any impact on the generation of further revenues. In the health service alone, that could cost £175 million in the first year and that will come out of patient care. Labour's alternative is to leave the expenditure unfunded.
  In 1975, I co-wrote for the Bow Group a pamphlet entitled "Under some Delusion". Incidentally, I co-wrote it with the person who is now the prospective Conservative candidate for Berwick-upon-Tweed. I am rather sorry that the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) is not in his place to hear one of the last public expenditure debates before the election. He may not be here after the election to appreciate such debates—if, as I expect to happen, my friend wins and becomes the admirable representative of that constituency.
  The title of the pamphlet derives from a quotation from Edmund Burke to the effect that people give up their liberty only under some delusion. The delusion is that money taken from people into the hands of Government suddenly becomes virtuous as a result of that very process —that a financial transmogrification occurs. The Labour party fundamentally believes that £1 taken from an individual and spent by the Government is not only capable of doing more but is somehow morally better. The Conservative party has long known that that is simply not the case. If we did not know it, we are called to order from time to time by the Audit Commission and Select Committees, and told that money spent by the Government is not even necessarily spent efficiently.
  The job of Governments is to concentrate on those things that have to be done by Governments and not on things that Governments are likely not to do as well as business or private individuals—certainly not as well as private individuals who take a personal interest in the way in which they spend their money, either generally or on charities.
  The danger is that Labour would take us back to the bad old days. When Labour left power in 1979, our public sector borrowing requirement was £12 billion—6 per cent. of gross domestic product. Our public sector borrowing requirement is now 1·75 per cent. of GDP. That level is tolerable and leaves sufficient flexibility in the economy. A high public sector borrowing requirement, on the other hand, has significant adverse ramifications for private sector funding and interest rates.
  The Government have shown that they are managing the economy properly and do not require increases in income tax. I see that the hon. Member for Derby, South is now in her place and I remind her that, under Labour,

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  such increases would be inevitable. The proper management of the economy does not require increases in income tax. Such increases are not required to increase tax receipts. Tax receipts have risen from £43·8 billion in 1988–89 to £55·5 billion in 1990–91. What is important is not increasing taxation rates but increasing the amount of enterprise and incentive in the economy, thereby creating wealth such as that which has enabled the present Government to increase public expenditure substantially while at the same time reducing the percentage of GDP that it represents. That is a remarkable achievement and one whose merits the Labour party has, sadly, still to learn.
  Let me make one or two final points—
  Mr. Keith Vaz: One.
  Mr. Taylor: I shall make two final points.
  First, it is important not to be dogmatic about the percentage of GDP taken by public expenditure—provided, that is, that the general target is a secular decline over a number of years. I endorse the comments made by my hon. Friends about the use of automatic stabilisers during a period of recession, which seems to me to be extremely relevant. I know that there will be criticisms in the media about the use of the reserve in this year's Budget —and, indeed, other criticisms. We should not be deterred, however, because it is already clear that the Government's long-term target is a balanced Budget and because, during this recession, it does not matter whether the percentage hovers above 41 per cent.
  Secondly, we must continue to prioritise within public expenditure. I know a little about health and I am happy to note that the percentage of GDP spent by this Government on health is higher than that spent by Labour. That underlines the fact that not only do we run the economy better; we actually deliver the goods to the people. As we can spend more, as a percentage of GDP, on health, Labour will soon find that it does not have such a winner as it thinks in the public debate on health issues.
  Whatever the level of public expenditure, it is important to spend the money efficiently. I therefore welcome the work of the Audit Commission and pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Mr. Mitchell) and others who have highlighted that aspect in several speeches.
  In the next Parliament—when we continue to be in government—we must ensure not only the proper management of the economy but the efficient management of public expenditure so that, in several of our high priority areas, such as health and education, we can ensure that there is better and more effective expenditure for the benefit of patients and school children. We must ensure that that is so for any given overall level of public expenditure. That is the task that we are setting ourselves and the task that we will achieve. I look forward to the Conservative Government continuing the implementation of their policies.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Mr. Keith Vaz.
  Dr. Godman: Did you say Godman, Madam Deputy Speaker?
  Madam Deputy Speaker: No, my enunciation was very clear.
  9.3 pm
  Mr. Keith Vaz: I sat through several hours of debate on the Football Spectators Bill. One of the problems that we faced was to find a definition of "hooligan". Those of us who sat through the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) today were given a prime example of hooligan behaviour. The words and actions of Conservative Members were the words and actions of hooligans. The reason for such behaviour is simply that the Conservative Government are coming to the end of their time. These are the last few months of an Administration who have run into a great crisis and have run out of ideas. The Conservative party changed its leader and, therefore, the Prime Minister, but it retained all its policies—policies that have destroyed the lives of many thousands of my constituents in Leicester.
  I want to speak very briefly about a number of aspects of the Government's public expenditure programme. I make no apology for saying that public expenditure should be increased in certain areas of Government policy. One such area is policing. Leicestershire has the worst crime record in the country. That is not because of lack of activity by the police. Indeed, I pay tribute to the work of the chief constable, Michael Hirst, and his officers. The reason for the lack of person power to police Leicestershire properly is that, despite the pleas from both sides of the House—pleas to Ministers during debates, and at meetings with Ministers, the most recent of which was with Lord Ferrers—the Government still refuse to provide the county with the police officers that it needs so desperately. As a result, the crime rate has escalated.
  Only two weeks ago we asked that the Government make provision for the construction of the new police station on the Hamilton estate. We pointed out the dire need for a new divisional headquarters in the eastern part of the city.
  The Government's response was that there is not enough money. They would not even look at the scheme until 1994–95. Residents of the outer estates of Leicester —places like Thurnby Lodge, Nether Hall and Northfields —complain about the high level of vandalism. This cannot be curbed without greater public expenditure, and that means greater expenditure by the Government.
  Only this week we received the welcome news that Leicester City football club has remained in the second division. Yet the manager and chairman of the club say that they do not know how much longer they can remain solvent while they have to meet the huge cost of policing their matches. There is a need for increased Government expenditure to help clubs like Leicester and others that are not fortunate enough to have big gates.
  As hon. Members know, Leicester is the centre of the footwear and textile industries. In 1979 those vital industries employed 440,000 people; by 1990, according to the Government's own figures, the number was down to 233,000—a loss of more than 207,000. That has had a tremendous effect locally. It has affected not only the people who have lost their jobs but the families of those people. The Government's plans contain no proposals to help those two industries. There is no incentive to invest. Every week we hear about another textile or footwear firm that is suffering because of the Government's policy of high interest rates.
  Later tonight we shall have a debate about education. Recently I did a survey of schools in my constituency. If

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  one adds together the number of years those schools have been waiting for repairs, one gets a total of 200. Schools, such as Abbey school—whether in the inner city or on the outer estates—need resources to get rid of some of the 60 mobile classrooms currently in use.
  The same applies to the crisis in housing. Over the past 10 years Leicester city council has been robbed of £20 million of Government support for its housing programme. It cannot build any more houses. It is not allowed to spend for that purpose the money that it raises from the sale of council houses. As a result, I and other local Members of Parliament, at our surgeries every week, meet young couples in a state of great anxiety because they are unable to secure the housing that they need so desperately. That is not the fault of the city council, which works hard to ensure that transfers are effected as quickly as possible, and there is no question of a vast number of properties remaining empty. The reason why additional housing cannot be provided, and why so many people in the outer areas cannot obtain transfers, is that not enough money is spent by central Government.
  There is so much more that I should like to say. There needs to be greater expenditure on the health service, and I want to know when the Government will impose surcharges on those Ministers who initiated the poll tax. If that had been done by local government, legislation would have been rushed through the House to surcharge the councillors responsible.
  In the few moments left to me, I make a special plea on behalf of nuclear test veterans. As the House knows, a constituent of mine, John Hall, is dying of leukaemia—which he contracted while serving on Christmas Island. I have met the Prime Minister and other Ministers, and recently launched an appeal in Leicestershire to support John Hall and other nuclear veterans. I believe that some money could be found in the Government's programme to pay compensation to people such as John Hall.
  By this time tomorrow, the Monmouth by-election will have been decided. I predict that Labour will take Monmouth, and it will do so because the people of Monmouth are fed up with the Government. My plea today is that the people of Leicester and the rest of the country should be given the same chance to pass their verdict on this, the most disastrous of Governments.
  9.11 pm
  Mr. Tony Marlow: As is quite often said these days, public expenditurre is good in many respects. Obviously one has to be careful how one spends the money. There are two purposes to public expenditure. The first is to care for and to help those who are unable temporarily or, sadly, permanently, to care for themselves. That area of public expenditure is one that this Government have built up. We have managed to refresh the parts that previous Governments have not reached.
  The second is to ensure the provision of effective and adequate public services. That is not done by public expenditure alone. Today, I visited the channel tunnel. That service, facility and infrastructure will be made available, but it has not been paid for by the public. That is a totally refreshing change from previous Governments, who felt that everything of that kind should come out of the taxpayers' pocket.
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  Another area of public services is the water authorities. They are now in the private sector. The public—the people of this country—paid to buy them. So the taxpayer has had the money for those services, and now that those services are generating profits, they are providing the taxpayer with money yet again.
  The Opposition go on about public expenditure—about spending more money, and about more plans for spending public money. They are going to buy the water authorities back. They are going to find more taxpayers' money to pay for that, and then they will lose the taxation on the profits in the future. So it is not what you do—it is how you do it.
  One of the most important areas of public expenditure, recognised by both sides of the House—it is just the philosophy with which we approach it that is different—is the health service. Our approach is that we want to get more care for the cash. However much money we can make available—and we on this side of the House have made more money available than Labour did in the past or could in future—we want to make sure that it generates as much care as possible.
  That is the reason we are going for hospital management trusts. A trust hospital will have control over its own destiny. It will run itself. It will manage itself, which will give it an incentive to be more effective and efficient. Not only that, but it will have a far greater awareness of the costs of what it does. By having that awareness of the costs, trust hospitals will be able to do more treatment for any given amount of money. They will want to have more people to come to them. They will want more business—more work, more care, more patients, more treatments and more effective use of our money. They will give more care for the cash.
  The Opposition have talked ad infinitum about cuts and closures, but they do not tell us about the wards and the new hospitals that we open or about the additional treatments. Since the Government took office, they have increased the resources to the health service by more than a half. Is that a cut? Since the Government took office, the number of doctors and nurses has increased—8,000 more doctors and 53,000 more nurses. Is that a cut? Since the Government took office, treatments, operations and in-patient treatments have increased by a third. Is that a cut?
  We have plans to increase the effectiveness and efficiency of the health service. The Opposition tell scare stories and take matters out of context. They tell us that they will not proceed with our reforms, so they will not achieve improvements in efficiency. Where will they get the resources from? We have been told that they will not increase taxation, apart from the 10 per cent. and 9 per cent. increases, and that they will obtain the money from growth. The money that will come from growth is already committed to old-age pensions and child benefit. Therefore, there will be no extra money for the health service and no improvement in that service.
  We would return to the days of the previous Labour Government, when the International Monetary Fund was involved. Then there were cuts in the health service and in the amount of money spent. It was a question not of priorities and decisions about who should be treated, or of doctors and hospital management, but of the National Union of Public Employees and the Confederation of Health Service Employees, who were the Opposition's paymasters. The career of the Leader of the Opposition

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  depends on the unions. He is more concerned about receiving the approval of NUPE or COHSE than about providing an effective and efficient health service. They decide his destiny and his position as Leader of the Opposition.
  The Government have rightly given more resources to the health service and the public sector. We have rightly encouraged the private sector to provide facilities that would not otherwise be provided. We have rightly managed to boost the amount of money to the taxpayer rather than reduce it.
  By contrast, if the Opposition took office they would do what they did before: they would try to improve services, but they would not have the systems to do so. They would not make the reforms that we have made. They would either borrow money, as my hon. Friends have said, or, once again, mug every taxpayer and take money out of their wallets and handbags. We must avoid that.
  9.17 pm
  Dr. Norman A. Godman: I have been told by those who must be obeyed that I should be brief.
  Amid the electioneering that is taking place here and elsewhere, the ordinary, decent people we represent have to continue to meet the challenges and deal with the problems they face in their everyday lives. I should like to consider whether the public expenditure plans come anywhere near matching the needs, interests and expectations of my constituents. I should like the Minister to ensure that my remarks are passed on to his ministerial colleagues. I have made similar requests before, and he has courteously done precisely that.
  The unemployment rate in my constituency is 12·9 per cent. Thousands of people are unemployed, some of whom are categorised as long-term unemployed. Among its objectives, the Department of Employment's glossy brochure states:
  "To help people to get jobs … To provide particular help to people who are long term unemployed … to make sure that unemployed people in receipt of benefits are available for and actively seeking work".
  The unemployed people I represent are anxious to find work. In Scotland, the age-old Scottish solution is being applied to unemployment. It is the solution of migration and emigration. I want the Government to establish the restart programme. I must tell the Government that, in Greenock and Port Glasgow, those programmes are being handled with appalling sensitivity by Department of Employment and Department of Social Security staff. People who have been unemployed for many months are extremely sensitive to any "instructions" that they receive from the local benefit office, the local job centre or the DSS. They should be treated much more compassionately and sensitively.
  Mrs Susan Coyle in Port Glasgow told me the other day that several of her friends have been treated in a disgraceful—she said "squalid"—way by officials as a result of the legislation which has introduced among other things the restart programme.
  The Department of Social Security brochure claims among other things that the DSS claims to
  "Provide a good service to customers—one which is professional, efficient, responsive and fair"
  and to
  "Ensure correct payments are made i.e. that benefit recipients are paid their correct entitlement".
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  That simply does not happen in the experience of many of my constituents.
  About two years ago, over 1,800 shipyard workers and dockers applied for disability benefit in respect of the industrial injuries of vibration white finger, industrial deafness and other ailments. Many of those men are still waiting for the claims to be processed. The Department of Social Security in Stranraer, Greenock and Port Glasgow has treated those men with disgraceful insensitivity. Yet south of the border in the Sunderland area of the north-east of England, such claims have been dealt with much more speedily, efficiently and, dare I say it, generously. If people in the north-east of England can be treated in that way, the claimants on the lower Clyde should be treated with equal compassion and sensitivity. I hope that the Minister will pass my remarks on to his ministerial colleagues.
  9.22 pm
  Mr. Nicholas Brown: I am sure that the whole House will wish to know that United won the European cup winners cup with a score of 2: 1. I hope that that is right. I say that to get my speech off to a popular start.
  The Chief Secretary got off to a traditionally raffish start to his address by referring to the timing of our debate. I was a little perplexed by that. In 1987, we had the debate on expenditure plans in February. We had the same debate in 1988 in February. In 1989, it was in February. In 1990, it was in February. This year, we are having the debate on 15 May.
  I wonder why the Government delayed the debate. The suspicion among Opposition Members was that some new announcement, perhaps on training, was planned to claw back the Government's disreputable public expenditure position. But the Government have not managed to make such an announcement. As a substitute, they have had to settle for second best. They have scheduled today's debate on the eve of the Labour victory in Monmouth. But, of course, it was not their intention to give us a chance to praise ourselves before the voters went to the polls. The intention was that today's debate should act as the culmination of a 10-day campaign which the Conservative party has conducted on the Labour party's public expenditure and tax policies.
  Mr. Oppenheim: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Brown: I shall give way in a moment.
  The response that met the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) must be attributed to absolute hysteria, which was clearly induced by fear. I shall now give way to an hon. Gentleman who has more to fear than most.
  Mr. Oppenheim: I am quaking in my shoes. The hon. Gentleman should not place his bets on the election results yet. Some of his colleagues lost money at the last election by predicting that I would lose my seat.
  Will the hon. Gentleman clear up a point that was not adequately explained during earlier exchanges? Last year, the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) told the House clearly and categorically that a future Labour Government would have only two spending priorities—pensions and child benefit. Since then, a succession of Labour Front Bench spokesmen have trooped through the Chamber and said that employment, training, trade and

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  industry, health and overseas development would also be priorities. Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House, clearly and unequivocally, who is right?
  Mr. Brown: My hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South is undoubtedly right on matters of public expenditure. The hon. Gentleman will see shortly, once we are in government, that the Labour party Treasury team intend to keep a firm grip on public expenditure, for reasons that are perfectly obvious to everyone who has taken part in this debate so far.
  Mr. Maude: Is the hon. Gentleman saying, therefore, that all those other Labour Front-Bench spokesmen are wrong?
  Mr. Brown: That is absolute nonsense. When we ask the Government what the basic rate of income tax will be in the Chancellor's next Budget, they say that that is a stupid question. Yet when a shadow Minister is at the Dispatch Box, they expect him to spell out the Labour party's entire expenditure programme and to say precisely what priority will be given to which commitment. The Labour party has set out honestly and candidly its taxation policies and the areas of priority.
  Mr. Maude: I asked a fair question. The hon. Gentleman has just said that the hon. Member for Derby, South was right when she said that there were only two priorities. I simply asked whether he is saying that all the other Front-Bench spokesmen were wrong to claim that there were a range of other priorities.
  Mr. Brown: The Financial Secretary is going from bad to worse but, fortunately, his interventions will shorten his time, not mine. I say that in case anyone thinks that I am being foolishly generous in allowing him to intervene. He is relying on the misrepresentation of one of his hon. Friends.
  Misrepresentation is becoming a stock in trade for the Financial Secretary. On the BBC "One O'Clock News" on 8 May, he said:
  "2½ per cent.—Labour Governments don't get that growth—the sort of growth we had in the 1980s".
  That turns out to be completely wrong. First, from 1964 to 1969 under a Labour Government, the British economy grew at the rate of 2·8 per cent. a year; under Labour from 1974 to 1979, despite the quadrupling of world oil prices, the economy grew at the rate of 2 per cent. Secondly, in the 12 years of Conservative party rule, and despite the £100 billion-worth of oil revenues available to the Government, the economy has grown at only 1·75 per cent. a year—we are indebted to the Economic Secretary for that figure. Every Labour Government since the second world war has had higher average annual growth rates than their Conservative counterparts. It is hopeless for the Financial Secretary to suggest otherwise.
  However, the Financial Secretary has one excuse—the Prime Minister has also been at it. I do not know what has happened to the modern Conservative party. They have gone from the iron lady to the tin man, from Boadicea to Frank Spencer. On 9 May, the Prime Minister said:
  "The reality is that the Labour party would never deliver any growth whatsoever to fund increased public expenditure. It never has and never would and any suggestion that it would is sheer wish fantasy."
  Mr. Paul Boateng: What is "wish fantasy"?
  Mr. Brown: I do not know. My hon. Friend will have to ask the Prime Minister—it would be a good question at Prime Minister's Question Time.
  The Prime Minister continued:
  "The extra £20 billion that Labour promises is spending that it could never deliver out of growth which it has never previously provided when in government."—[Official Report, 9 May 1991; Vol. 190, c. 820, 822.]
  That is factually inaccurate. We are happy to argue the issues with Conservative Members in a civilised way, but not on the basis of rant, which is all that is on offer.
  We have said that we shall remove the ceiling on employees' national insurance contributions, which will affect people earning more than £20,000 a year. We have told the electorate that we intend to do that. Conservative Members do not seem to be aware of the phrase "marginal tax rates" and act as though the effect filters down to every penny an individual earns. We have given our statement, and the electorate will contrast that with a Conservative party that did not say that it would raise employees' national insurance contributions in 1981 by 2·5 per cent., not just for top rate earners but every national insurance contributor in the country.
  Time is working against me in this debate. A number of Opposition Members made significant contributions, and one theme that came through more strongly than any other was Opposition Members' concern for the national health service. My hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde (Mr. Graham) rightly cited individual cases.
  I shall describe an individual case, not just because it is important in itself, but because it is significant in relation to what is happening in the national health service. At the end of last week, I was telephoned by my general practitioner. One of my doctor's patients is an 83-year-old widow who has had a bowel tumour and a colostomy. She has been in hospital for radiotherapy but, sadly, the tumour is still there. She suffers from cataracts, cannot read, and is taking morphine to relieve the pain. The medical judgment of her medical practitioner is that she should be given a course of radiotherapy as an in-patient in Newcastle general hospital to try to alleviate the condition or at least relieve the pain.
  At first, her specialist agreed that she would be given an appointment in ten days' time. But then the appointment was withdrawn because Newcastle general hospital— which is still operated by the health authority; it has not opted out—has decided that no patients from Newcastle will be admitted to Newcastle hospital for radiotherapy and treated as in-patients. The reason for that has nothing to do with clinical judgment; it would be impossible to make such a decision based on clinical judgment in advance of seeing the patient. The reasons for the decision are organisational and financial.
  The radiotherapy service has lost 15 beds, but demand for the service has increased. In order to provide a service to the entire region, the hospital has contractual arrangements with neighbouring authorities that provide an income for Newcastle health authority, because the money has to follow the patient. The problem is that such money will not follow patients in Newcastle, because the health authority has to pay money to itself and it does not intend to do so. Therefore, there is no money to follow a citizen in Newcastle—just misery.

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  I shall not substitute my political judgment for that of a medical practitioner. The House will be relieved to know that my constituent has been given treatment. When I got in touch with the hospital and said that I intended to raise the matter in the House, it decided that her condition had deteriorated and that she now qualified for clinical treatment. Members of Parliament representing all parts of the country will be put in the impossible position of having to act as welfare officers, putting representations to hospital managements to ensure that elderly people get the sort of treatment that they should be entitled to in the first place.
  Mr. Ian Stewart rose—
  Mr. Brown: I shall finish my point, and then give way to the right hon. Gentleman.
  The citizens of Newcastle are being told that none of them will be treated as in-patients. This might leave the local health authority in the absurd position of having to buy a safe house in Wallsend, over the border, and to move people who need in-patient treatment out of the district so that they can get into their own hospitals. I do not say that that would actually happen. Such an arrangement would be absurd, but it would be compatible with the market forces that the Conservatives encourage. The situation is outrageous. I cannot believe that this country would refuse an 83-year-old woman in such circumstances in-patient treatment under the NHS.
  Mr. Ian Stewart: I cannot comment on the hon. Gentleman's constituency case, but I am glad that he has been able to play a part in ensuring that the lady gets her treatment. If he feels so strongly about the funding of the NHS, will he tell us by how much his party would increase expenditure on it above the figures in the White Paper?
  Mr. Brown: Conservative Members seem to think that the health service is already properly funded. None of them has suggested otherwise. Indeed, the implication of tonight's motion is that the Conservative party's priority is tax cuts, not further public expenditure. The Opposition amendment says that the resources available from growth and from the tax changes that we have honestly announced to the electorate—the Conservative party never did that—should be used for our spending priorities, which embrace the NHS.
  The right hon. Member for Hertfordshire, North (Mr. Stewart) should not be surprised that Labour Members feel so strongly about the NHS. During my visit to Monmouth, I found, as did other Opposition Members, that the health service was the biggest single issue that was raised. If Conservative Members are not willing to take that from me tonight, they will hear it from the electorate in the Monmouth by-election tomorrow.
  Conservative Members who have spoken in the debate have concentrated on the Labour party's public expenditure and taxation plans. Despite the fact that the Governments public expenditure plans are the subject of the motion, Conservative Members did not seem to want to discuss them, or the documents in which they are set out. They preferred to discuss fictional versions of British history when the Labour party was in power—perhaps I should call that period current affairs rather than history —and hysterical versions of what they think will happen
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  under the next Labour government. References to present Government policy seemed almost forbidden. They were not interested in that.
  The obvious explanation for that is that, if the Government intend to reduce direct taxation—that has been their theme since 1979—the money has to be found from somewhere. We know where that money will be found: the Conservative party will adopt the same solution as it did in 1981, despite having pledged in 1979 to do no such thing. It is the same solution in 1981 and increased it again by 2·5 per cent. in this year's Budget. If Conservatives seriously intend further to reduce direct taxation they will further increase indirect taxation.
  I have heard no convincing denial of the Conservative party's secret plan to increase VAT. I shall give way if any Conservative Member wishes to make a straight denial. That is a generous offer, but it has not been taken up. I am surprised and a little disappointed by that. Surely somebody could manage at least a ritual denial of the sort that we had in 1979, when the then shadow Chancellor said that such an allegation by the Labour party was a wicked lie. He said that the Conservatives had no intention whatever of doubling VAT. It could be argued that he did not double it, and such a semantic point would remove some of the difficulty, but not all of it.
  The debate about the Labour party's public spending and taxation policies was started about 10 days ago in the Daily Express by the Chief Secretary. At that time, Labour and the Conservatives were said to be running neck and neck in the opinion polls on Monmouth. Now Labour is well ahead in those polls, and a victory tomorrow in Monmouth is staring us in the face. If the Chief Secretary continues to attack us like that, the Opposition will soon be sitting on the Government side, and the Conservatives will be sitting over here.
  9.41 pm
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Francis Maude): Traditionally, this debate enables the House to do two things. First, it is an important annual episode in the execution of the House's role in scrutinising Government spending. It also enables the House to probe policies on public spending.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Sir I. Lloyd) and the hon. Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Garrett) spoke about the format of the reports that are before the House. In reply to my hon. Friend, I do not think that the House is powerless in controlling and scrutinising public spending. It has an important role and, traditionally, the House has rightly taken it seriously. My hon. Friend said that he wished that the House had the same resources as the United States Congress. However, the size of America's budget deficit does not inspire a great deal of confidence in the scrutiny and control of public spending on the other side of the Atlantic.
  The way in which the Government report to the House has developed very much in consultation with Select Committees, and has been guided by what those Committees have sought. We shall continue to consult, amend and improve the form of financial reporting to reflect the desires of the House.
  The second function is to enable each side to probe policies, the way in which money is raised and spent, and

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  the important division in philosophy between the Government and the Opposition. As the debate has illustrated, it sometimes seems that Labour's approach to public sector spending is rather like feeding a slot machine. They seem to think it inevitable that the more coins they put in at the top the more chocolate bars will emerge at the bottom. It does not quite work like that, especially when Labour is in power either in government or in councils. In such cases the slot machine becomes rather like a fruit machine, a one-armed bandit, because most of the money remains inside. That is not surprising because, after all, Labour is in hock to the public sector unions.
  Yesterday, it was pointed out in the House—I do not think that it has been refuted—that a third of the parliamentary Labour party is sponsored by the Confederation of Health Service Employees and the National Union of Public Employees. I am not suggesting that that inevitably colours the attitudes of Labour Members—
  Mr. Nicholas Brown: I suspect the Financial Secretary's figures are just wrong. It is highly unlikely that COHSE and NUPE sponsor a third of the parliamentary Labour party.
  Mr. Maude: I am reassured to hear that, but we shall be interested to hear the refutation. The suggestion was made in the House yesterday and it has not been refuted. Certainly, the majority of the parliamentary Labour party behave as though they were sponsored by COHSE and NUPE. That is why one can be morally certain that a Labour Government would ensure that the extra money raised from taxpayers will stick in the pockets of those who work in the state bureaucracies, instead of being translated into better services for citizens.
  That is what we are seeking to change. We aim to make the public sector—central and local government, nationalised industries and the health service—work more efficiently so that the money supplied by the citizens as the taxpayer is translated into ever better services for the citizen as the user of them. The Prime Minister has initiated the most radical overhaul ever of the public sector, applying private sector market disciplines right across the board. [Interruption.] Let us hear what the Labour party has to say. We shall apply market disciplines, giving choice to the users of services and introducing competition wherever possible.
  Mr. Graham: Will the Minister give an assurance to the elderly disabled woman whom I spoke to tonight that in future, instead of taking five days to get her wheelchair fixed, it will take one day at the most?
  Mr. Maude: I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are determined that the provision of public services will get better. We do not share the hon. Gentleman's blithe and dogmatic assumption that the only way to improve public sector services is by putting ever more money into them. That is why we have introduced wide-ranging reforms across the public sector and we shall continue to do that.
  Introducing a commercial attitude to the public sector does not mean that everything will be sacrificed to short-term profit. The private sector does not flourish or create customer loyalty by treating its clients badly. It flourishes and creates loyalty because people have a
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  choice. If they do not like what they are given, they can go elsewhere. Every change that has been introduced into the public sector has been aimed at delivering quality services.
  Let us consider the introduction of executive agencies —'next steps' agencies—which are designed to improve efficiency and to give managers more control and more powers to enable their organisations to deliver better services. Let us consider one or two examples, even though I accept they are not in the mainstream of the provision of public services. The process has only just begun and there is a long way to go. It will be interesting to see whether the Labour party supports the process.
  For example, in Companies House productivity rose by 6 per cent. and real unit costs fell by 5 per cent. in the first year that it was a 'next steps' agency. The average time taken to process documents was 12 days compared with 25 days in the previous year. In the vehicles inspectorate agency, cost efficiency in its four main functions improved by 4·5 per cent. against a target of 3·7 per cent. In Her Majesty's Stationery Office value-for-money improvements of 8·6 per cent., 12·6 per cent. and 12 per cent. have been achieved in its different functions. That is just an example of the sort of benefit that can be gained for the public sector and for the citizens, who will get the services that they expect the Government and the public sector to provide by making the money supplied by the taxpayer buy ever better services for the citizen.
  Mr. Battle: One of the agencies is the Employment Service. How does reducing the number of employment offices from 2,000 to 1,000 increase the service as unemployment is obviously increasing? How is that a saving?
  Mr. Maude: By the Employment Service becoming more efficient in the way in which it provides services for consumers; by ensuring that money goes further—which it does.
  As regards the national health service, it is a pity that the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East (Mr. Brown) did not give an answer to the question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, North (Mr. Stewart), who made an outstanding speech.
  The Labour party has argued repeatedly that the only thing wrong with the health service is that it does not have enough money in it. In 1987, the Labour party argued that it was underfunded and that it needed to be funded to the extent of 3 per cent. real growth per year. We have increased its real spending by 3·5 per cent. a year, but the Labour party says that it is still underfunded and that that is the only thing wrong with it. Labour cannot admit that there might be anything wrong with the way in which the NHS turns that money into patient care. We have steadily introduced a series of reforms into the NHS which are specifically designed to ensure that patient care increases and becomes ever better.
  What about competitive tendering, which has provided savings of £120 million—money which has all gone into patient care? The Labour party says that it would abolish it, which means that £120 million would be taken out of patient care. Is that an example of how to make the health service provide better services for patients? Will the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East say that he is not going to get rid of competitive tendering?
  Mr. Nicholas Brown: I understand the hon. Gentleman's arguments about efficiency. As he studies

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  these matters, I expect that he will have seen the report of the National Audit Office, which will tell him that a third of all the costs consumed by the social fund are spent on administration. Is that an example of Conservative efficiency?
  Mr. Maude: I am sorry to say that the hon. Gentleman did not answer the question which we put to him about whether he would continue with competitive tendering in the health service, which has delivered better care for patients. Or is the Labour party so constrained by COHSE and NUPE that it is not able to contemplate the continuation of a policy which has yielded so many benefits for patients?
  Direct care staff have increased from 59 per cent. of all staff in the health service to 67 per cent., which means more people in the health service are concerned with the direct provision of patient care. The number of doctors and nurses has increased dramatically—53,000 more nurses and midwives and 8,000 more doctors and dentists. That has been possible because the health service operates ever more efficiently and provides ever more treatment for ever more people. Every year, the health service has treated more people, more effectively.
  Another example are the educational reforms, to loosen the control of bureaucracy and to give more control to parents. Grant-maintained schools, local management of schools and open enrolment are all designed to give more power to parents to insist that schools provide better schooling for their children. The money that they put in as charge payers and taxpayers comes out in better schooling for their children.
  What is Labour's response to those reforms, which are designed to provide better care and better schooling? What did the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) say about grant-maintained schools? "On day one, we'll stop it. We'll turn the clock back," he said. As every day goes by the Labour party reveals itself as the real party of reaction, the party which wants to turn the clock back, the party which cannot conceive of the fact that local authority services can be provided by anything other than local authorities. All the public sector services have to be provided by people employed by the state. Services have to be provided by bureaucracy. The Opposition hate anything that gives to patients and parents real choice—the choice to control their destiny and what happens to them—because that takes people out of the power of the state and gives them independence and choice. The Opposition cannot stand that.
  As for local authorities contracting out, just look at the city of Westminster. It has saved £4·1 million a year.
  Mr. John Smith: The hon. Gentleman referred to contracting out in hospitals. In my constituency, 400 employees of the Monklands district general hospital recently had their employment terminated because of contracting out. The company that now provides the services is offering the people whom it employs poorer wages and different hours but, most significant of all, no superannuation whatsoever. Does the Minister think that that is right?
  Mr. Maude: The right hon. and learned Gentleman could not have better demonstrated where his real loyalties lie. They lie not with the patients who seek care in hospitals
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  but with those people who are employed by the state. He could not better have demonstrated why we object to his approach to the national health service.
  Mr. Smith: And the Minister could not more clearly have demonstrated where the Government's loyalties lie. I am proud to represent people in my constituency who work in my local hospital. It is absurd and disgraceful that they should lose their jobs and be offered other jobs without the possibility of superannuation. The Minister is on the side of employers who deny rights to my constituents.
  Mr. Maude: The fact is that the Government are on the side of the patients who are treated in hospitals and of patients who are treated by general practitioners. We are on the side of parents who send their children to the schools of their choice. We are not on the side of the state and of the public sector unions who still hold the Labour party in thrall. The right hon. and learned Gentleman should be a little more careful about the way in which he opens up his party to criticism.
  During the debate we have asked the Labour party a lot of questions but we have had precious few answers. During my right hon. and learned Friend's speech this afternoon I counted 13 questions to the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett). She half-answered two of them. That seems to me to leave a deficit of 11. We are still waiting to hear what the answers are. I gave the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East another opportunity to let us know the answers to those questions.
  What is the answer to the question about priorities? Does Beckett's law still apply, or do all the other Labour party Front-Bench spokesmen have authority to offer top priorities, key priorities, overriding priorities? What are the priorities? What would a Labour Government spend their money on?
  Mr. Boateng rose—
  Mr. Maude: Is the hon. Gentleman going to intervene and tell us what the priorities are, or is he, as the hon. Member for Derby, South said earlier, going to give us the answers later? I suspect that they will be given much later. They will certainly not come when the Labour party is in government because it will never have the chance to be in government.
  How will the Labour party fill the gap left by the proceeds of privatisation, forgone by its dogma? How will it raise the extra £5 billion? Will it mean an additional 2·5p on income tax? Will it mean £5 billion off spending? Will it mean borrowing extra money—a burden on future taxpayers? When shall we get the answers to those questions? What about the Leader of the Opposition's additional £20 billion? Does that come out of the growth that we have already provided for and already assumed for our services? When will there be answers to these questions?
  The fact is that Labour are so obsessed with input that they don their motley as they go round the country, throwing around commitments to spending here, buying off an interest group there, and then they put on their dark suits to persuade the public that they do not really mean it. The fact is that we have seen enough of Labour promises. Labour are rattled, rumbled and wrong. They have made their promises, which are like pie-crust; they are made to be broken. People will not believe them.
  Question put, That the amendment be made:—
  The House divided: Ayes 177, Noes 298.

  Division No. 144]

  [10 pm

  AYES

  Abbott, Ms Diane

  Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

  Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley, N.)

  Godman, Dr Norman A.

  Allen, Graham

  Golding, Mrs Llin

  Alton, David

  Gordon, Mildred

  Armstrong, Hilary

  Gould, Bryan

  Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

  Graham, Thomas

  Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

  Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

  Ashton, Joe

  Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

  Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

  Harman, Ms Harriet

  Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

  Heal, Mrs Sylvia

  Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

  Henderson, Doug

  Battle, John

  Hinchliffe, David

  Beckett, Margaret

  Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

  Beith, A. J.

  Home Robertson, John

  Bell, Stuart

  Hood, Jimmy

  Bellotti, David

  Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

  Benn, Rt Hon Tony

  Howells, Geraint

  Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

  Hoyle, Doug

  Bermingham, Gerald

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Blair, Tony

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

  Blunkett, David

  Illsley, Eric

  Boateng, Paul

  Janner, Greville

  Boyes, Roland

  Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

  Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

  Kirkwood, Archy

  Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

  Lambie, David

  Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

  Lamond, James

  Buckley, George J.

  Leighton, Ron

  Caborn, Richard

  Lestor, Joan (Eccles)

  Callaghan, Jim

  Lewis, Terry

  Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

  Livingstone, Ken

  Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

  Livsey, Richard

  Campbell-Savours, D. N.

  Lofthouse, Geoffrey

  Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

  Loyden, Eddie

  Cartwright, John

  McAllion, John

  Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

  McAvoy, Thomas

  Clwyd, Mrs Ann

  Macdonald, Calum A.

  Cohen, Harry

  McKelvey, William

  Corbett, Robin

  McLeish, Henry

  Corbyn, Jeremy

  McMaster, Gordon

  Cousins, Jim

  McNamara, Kevin

  Cryer, Bob

  McWilliam, John

  Cummings, John

  Madden, Max

  Cunliffe, Lawrence

  Mahon, Mrs Alice

  Cunningham, Dr John

  Marek, Dr John

  Dalyell, Tam

  Marshall, David (Shettleston)

  Darling, Alistair

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

  Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

  Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

  Martlew, Eric

  Dewar, Donald

  Maxton, John

  Dixon, Don

  Meacher, Michael

  Dobson, Frank

  Meale, Alan

  Doran, Frank

  Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

  Douglas, Dick

  Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

  Dunnachie, Jimmy

  Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

  Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

  Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

  Eadie, Alexander

  Mullin, Chris

  Eastham, Ken

  Nellist, Dave

  Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)

  Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

  Fatchett, Derek

  O'Brien, William

  Fearn, Ronald

  O'Neill, Martin

  Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

  Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

  Flannery, Martin

  Paisley, Rev Ian

  Foot, Rt Hon Michael

  Patchett, Terry

  Foster, Derek

  Pike, Peter L.

  Foulkes, George

  Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

  Fraser, John

  Primarolo, Dawn

  Fyfe, Maria

  Quin, Ms Joyce

  Galloway, George

  Randall, Stuart

  Garrett, John (Norwich South)

  Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn

  Garrett, Ted (Wallsend)

  Reid, Dr John

  George, Bruce

  Richardson, Jo

  376

  Robertson, George

  Straw, Jack

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

  Rooker, Jeff

  Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

  Rooney, Terence

  Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)

  Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

  Vaz, Keith

  Ruddock, Joan

  Wallace, James

  Salmond, Alex

  Wareing, Robert N.

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)

  Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

  Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)

  Shore, Rt Hon Peter

  Williams, Rt Hon Alan

  Sillars, Jim

  Winnick, David

  Skinner, Dennis

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

  Worthington, Tony

  Smith, Rt Hon J. (Monk'ds E)

  Wray, Jimmy

  Soley, Clive

  Spearing, Nigel

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Steel, Rt Hon Sir David

  Mr. Frank Haynes and

  Steinberg, Gerry

  Mr. Allen McKay.

  Stott, Roger

  NOES

  Adley, Robert

  Clark, Rt Hon Sir William

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Colvin, Michael

  Alexander, Richard

  Conway, Derek

  Alison, Rt Hon Michael

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

  Allason, Rupert

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Amery, Rt Hon Julian

  Cope, Rt Hon John

  Amess, David

  Cran, James

  Amos, Alan

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Arbuthnot, James

  Curry, David

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

  Ashby, David

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Day, Stephen

  Atkins, Robert

  Devlin, Tim

  Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

  Dickens, Geoffrey

  Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

  Dicks, Terry

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Batiste, Spencer

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

  Dover, Den

  Bellingham, Henry

  Dunn, Bob

  Bendall, Vivian

  Durant, Sir Anthony

  Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Eggar, Tim

  Benyon, W.

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

  Bevan, David Gilroy

  Evennett, David

  Biffen, Rt Hon John

  Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

  Blackburn, Dr John G.

  Fallon, Michael

  Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

  Favell, Tony

  Body, Sir Richard

  Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey

  Boscawen, Hon Robert

  Fishburn, John Dudley

  Boswell, Tim

  Fookes, Dame Janet

  Bottomley, Peter

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Forth, Eric

  Bowden, A. (Brighton K'pto'n)

  Franks, Cecil

  Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

  French, Douglas

  Bowis, John

  Fry, Peter

  Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes

  Gale, Roger

  Brandon-Bravo, Martin

  Gardiner, Sir George

  Brazier, Julian

  Gill, Christopher

  Bright, Graham

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

  Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

  Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

  Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

  Goodhart, Sir Philip

  Browne, John (Winchester)

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  Buck, Sir Antony

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Budgen, Nicholas

  Gorst, John

  Burns, Simon

  Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

  Burt, Alistair

  Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

  Butcher, John

  Greenway, John (Ryedale)

  Butler, Chris

  Gregory, Conal

  Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

  Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E')

  Carrington, Matthew

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  Carttiss, Michael

  Ground, Patrick

  Cash, William

  Grylls, Michael

  Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda

  Hague, William

  Channon, Rt Hon Paul

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Chapman, Sydney

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Chope, Christopher

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Churchill, Mr

  Hannam, John

  Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

  Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

  377

  Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael

  Haselhurst, Alan

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick

  Hawkins, Christopher

  Madel, David

  Hayes, Jerry

  Malins, Humfrey

  Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney

  Mans, Keith

  Hayward, Robert

  Maples, John

  Heath, Rt Hon Edward

  Marland, Paul

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Marlow, Tony

  Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

  Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

  Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE)

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

  Mates, Michael

  Hill, James

  Maude, Hon Francis

  Hind, Kenneth

  Mawhinney, Dr Brian

  Holt, Richard

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

  Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

  Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

  Mellor, Rt Hon David

  Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

  Miller, Sir Hal

  Hunt, Rt Hon David

  Mills, Iain

  Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Hunter, Andrew

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Irving, Sir Charles

  Mitchell, Sir David

  Jack, Michael

  Moate, Roger

  Jackson, Robert

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Janman, Tim

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Moore, Rt Hon John

  Jones, Robert B (Herts W)

  Morris, M (N'hampton S)

  Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

  Morrison, Sir Charles

  Key, Robert

  Moss, Malcolm

  King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

  Moynihan, Hon Colin

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Neale, Sir Gerrard

  Knapman, Roger

  Neubert, Sir Michael

  Knight, Greg (Derby North)

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Knowles, Michael

  Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)

  Knox, David

  Norris, Steve

  Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

  Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley

  Lang, Rt Hon Ian

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Latham, Michael

  Page, Richard

  Lee, John (Pendle)

  Patnick, Irvine

  Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

  Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

  Pawsey, James

  Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

  Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

  Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)

  Porter, Barry (Wirral S)

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  Porter, David (Waveney)

  Lord, Michael

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Luce, Rt Hon Sir Richard

  Price, Sir David

  McCrindle, Sir Robert

  Raffan, Keith

  Macfarlane, Sir Neil

  Raison, Rt Hon Sir Timothy

  MacGregor, Rt Hon John

  Rathbone, Tim

  Maclean, David

  Redwood, John

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Rhodes James, Robert

  378

  Riddick, Graham

  Thornton, Malcolm

  Ridsdale, Sir Julian

  Thurnham, Peter

  Roberts, Sir Wyn (Conwy)

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Rossi, Sir Hugh

  Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

  Rumbold, Rt Hon Mrs Angela

  Tracey, Richard

  Ryder, Rt Hon Richard

  Tredinnick, David

  Sackville, Hon Tom

  Trippier, David

  Sainsbury, Hon Tim

  Trotter, Neville

  Sayeed, Jonathan

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Shaw, David (Dover)

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Viggers, Peter

  Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

  Wakeham, Rt Hon John

  Shelton, Sir William

  Walden, George

  Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)

  Walker, Bill (T'side North)

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester)

  Shersby, Michael

  Waller, Gary

  Sims, Roger

  Walters, Sir Dennis

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  Ward, John

  Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

  Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

  Warren, Kenneth

  Speller, Tony

  Watts, John

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

  Wells, Bowen

  Squire, Robin

  Wheeler, Sir John

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Whitney, Ray

  Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

  Widdecombe, Ann

  Steen, Anthony

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Stern, Michael

  Wilkinson, John

  Stevens, Lewis

  Wilshire, David

  Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

  Winterton, Mrs Ann

  Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Stewart, Rt Hon Ian (Herts N)

  Wood, Timothy

  Sumberg, David

  Woodcock, Dr. Mike

  Summerson, Hugo

  Yeo, Tim

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Young, Sir George (Acton)

  Taylor, Ian (Esher)

  Younger, Rt Hon George

  Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

  Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Mr. David Lightbown and Mr. John M. Taylor.

  Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Question accordingly negatived.
  Main Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That this House approves the Government's Expenditure Plans for 1991–92 to 1993–94 (Cm 1501 to 1520); and contratulates the Government on continuing to maintain its medium term objective that public spending should, over time, take a declining share of national income, while value for money is constantly improved and resources are concentrated in areas of high priority.

  Grant-maintained Schools
  10.14 pm
  Mr. Derek Fatchett: I beg to move,
  That the Education (Grant-maintained Schools) (Finance) Regulations 1991 (S.I., 1991, No. 353), dated 27th February 1991, a copy of which was laid before this House on 28th February, be revoked.
  During the debates on the Education Reform Act 1988, the Labour members of the Standing Committee made it abundantly clear that they opposed the principle of grant-maintained schools. There were two reasons for our opposition. We felt that such schools would be wasteful of resources and discriminatory in their operation. These regulations and the experience of the past three years vindicate all the comments that we made four years ago in the Standing Committee. Grant-maintained schools have introduced into our education system a planning paralysis that bedevils attempts to rid the system of wasteful and expensive surplus places. It is a contradiction in the managerial position adopted by Ministers in the Department of Education and Science that, on the one hand—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Private conversations should take place outside the Chamber.
  Mr. Fatchett: The existence of grant-maintained schools is an indication of planning paralysis and of a lack of managerial consistency and competence on the part of Ministers in the Department of Education and Science. On the one hand, the Department is told by the Audit Commission that it should get rid of surplus school places, of which there are more than 1 million, and each of which involves substantial cost; on the other hand, the Department encourages schools that are subject to possible reorganisation or closure to go for opted-out status. On the one hand, the Government impose pressures on local authorities to get rid of surplus places; on the other hand, the Department, for ideological reasons, encourages schools to opt out. This planning paralysis is imposing a heavy cost on the taxpayer.
  We were right three years ago when we argued that the scheme would be wasteful. We were also right in our argument that it would be discriminatory. It is worth remembering the assurance that we were given by the right hon. Member for Mole Valley (Mr. Baker), who was then Secretary of State for Education and Science. Every time the right hon. Gentleman was challenged during the debates on the Education Reform Act he said that there would be financial neutrality, with regard to both revenue and capital, in respect of the grant-maintained schools. When challenged by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) on 10 November 1988, the right hon. Gentleman replied that there would be financial neutrality in capital matters. In a letter to my hon. Friend, he gave a very clear assurance on that score.
  We now have the record. Clearly, there is no financial neutrality. There is discrimination—brazen favouritism for opted-out schools. Anybody who reads these regulations will see how the dice are loaded in terms of both revenue and capital. A look at the details will reveal many examples of revenue bias towards grant-maintained schools. There is no sign of the financial neutrality that was talked about in the Standing Committee. This is a further indication of the fact that the word of education
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  Ministers and their predecessors has little real value. On revenue, for instance, we see that the special purpose grant for development has been increased by 50 per cent. between 1990–91 and the current financial year. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Lancaster (Dame E. Kellett-Bowman) says, "Quite right."
  Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman: I said, quite clearly, that they were victimised before. For example, the grammar schools in my constituency were consistently victimised by Lancashire education authority because it did not like them. Of course they opted out—and now, for the first time, they are getting a fair deal.
  Mr. Fatchett: I am surprised to hear the hon. Lady say that. I will give her the figures. My previous ability to lip-read seems somewhat lacking, because I thought that the hon. Lady said something different. However, she made an interesting argument.
  In terms of the special purpose grant for development, which basically covers teachers' in-service training, the 1991–92 figure for schools that have not opted out is £28 per child, per year. The figure for schools that have opted out is £41. How can the hon. Lady or any other Conservative Member justify that 50 per cent. difference in the figure for local authority and grant-maintained schools?
  There is no question of any vendetta by Lancashire county council. The matter does not relate to the local authority, as the hon. Lady tried to suggest. It is simply a case of the dice being loaded to provide additional money for grant-maintained schools.
  Mr. Patrick Nicholls: At face value, the hon. Gentleman is saying that he has nothing against the principle of opting out, but thinks that we have not got the details quite right. What response would the hon. Gentleman make to the headmaster of a high school in Manchester who said, "Many parents round here vote Labour, and they don't understand why Labour politicians trust them to return a Labour Government, but do not trust them to run their own schools"? That is the question that the hon. Gentleman should answer tonight, but I do not believe for one moment that he will.
  Mr. Fatchett: If the hon. Gentleman had been listening, he would have heard me say at the beginning of my remarks that we oppose the principle—and I am now putting some of the arguments about the detail. I shall return to the hon. Gentleman's remarks later in my speech, with some enthusiasm.
  Mr. Charles Wardle: I listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman, and he spoke of wastefulness, paralysis and discrimination, but did not admit to his own prejudice or dogma. Why does he suppose that more than 2,000 schools expressed an interest in grant-maintained status?
  Mr. Fatchett: The number of schools that have opted out represents less than 1 per cent. of the total. That figure is much more relevant.
  As to discrimination and brazen favouritism, let us consider the figure on capital expenditure. The figure for local authority schools in the maintained sector is £83 per child for the current financial year. The figure for the grant-maintained sector is £326—four times higher. In some regions, the difference is even greater.

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  In answer to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, the Secretary of State for Education said that the justification for that difference could be that individual grant-maintained schools had been neglected by their local authorities in the past What a nonsensical argument for a Secretary of State to advance. If they had been neglected, how is that local education authorities individually knew which school to neglect?
  The scheme came into operation only three years ago, yet according to the Secretary of State, the disparity that I described is clue to accumulated neglect over a period of years. Is not the real answer that not just grant-maintained schools but all schools have been neglected by the Government, and that instead of meeting their responsibilities for all our children and schools, the Government are just meeting their responsibilities in respect of a small number of them?
  We have a model for education that is the same that the Government advanced in respect of the health service. It is a two-tier model, clearly based on the opt-out principle. We know that hospital opting out has been rejected throughout the country because it is based on a two-tier system whereby a small number of hospitals benefit, but the vast majority miss out.
  Mr. Robert B. Jones rose—
  Mr. Fatchett: If the hon. Gentleman waits a minute, he will enjoy the next part of my speech.
  The hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Mr. Wardle) tried to justify that discrimination and elitism by arguing that there is choice. However, there is no choice in a system that is deliberately designed to benefit a few to the cost of the overwhelming majority. There is no equity in that principle. The programme of opt-out schools is the education equivalent of queue jumping in the national health service, and Conservative Members know it.
  Mr. Robert B. Jones: The hon. Gentleman has spent the past few minutes comparing education with the national health service. Yesterday, the hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) said that hospitals that want to opt out should hold ballots. Why does the Labour party wish to deny a ballot to people who want schools to opt out?
  Mr. Fatchett: It is a great pity that the hon. Gentleman did not read the debates on the Education Reform Act 1988. If he had done so, he would know the answer. We said that a ballot should involve the whole community rather than a limited number of parents who are affected at the time.
  The language of choice is false, and we all know it. Those of us who visit schools and have practical experience know that there is simply no choice for many parents and children. Where is the choice for children at Killinghall first school in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, North (Mr. Rooney), who have been educated in temporary accommodation for the past seven years? Where is the choice for the hundreds and thousands of children who are being educated in crumbling schools? Where is the choice for children who suffer a shortage of books in the classroom and of equipment for science and technology lessons? That is not choice. The real choice in education will be provided when we have a system based on equity and rights for all parents rather than choice for just a few.
  Mr. Peter Thurnham: Why does not the hon. Gentleman visit St. James Church of England school in Bolton? What choice did parents of its pupils have? The local authority tried to kill it off, but as a grant-maintained school it is now enormously popular.
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Michael Fallon): The hon. Gentleman has never visited a grant-maintained school.
  Mr. Fatchett: The hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Fallon) always opens his mouth with little evidence to support what he is saying.
  Mr. Keith Mans: Where is Bolton?
  Mr. Fatchett: I live on the other side of the Pennines, so I have a fair idea where Bolton is.
  Mr. Robert B. Jones: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As the hon. Gentleman is finding it so difficult to answer a straightforward question about where Bolton is, would it be in order to point out to him that a Labour councillor in Bolton was expelled from the Labour party for three years for supporting opting out?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean): Let us get on with the debate.
  Mr. Fatchett: The hon. Member for Darlington accused me, as usual without any evidence, of not having visited a grant-maintained school, but I have done so.
  Mr. Mans: Where is Darlington?
  Mr. Fatchett: The last time I went to Darlington, I scored 50 runs playing cricket. I remember it very well. I assure the hon. Gentleman that it was a very good innings and was reported in local papers.
  The hon. Member for Darlington said that I had not visited a grant-maintained school. I have visited more grant-maintained schools than the Secretary of State has visited local education authority schools. If the hon. Member for Darlington spent less time watching "Neighbours" and telling the country what to watch on television and knew more about education, he would be more useful in his capacity.
  Not only the Labour party objects to grant-maintained schools and the principle of them. The Times objects. In an editorial it referred to the evils of opt-out. Conservative Members have referred to local councillors. Let me remind them of the case of Joan Bryant. She might be known to some Conservative Members. She was the former Conservative chairman of Bromley education committee. She resigned from that position for one simple reason. She objected to opt-out and, in language that could have come from the Labour party—she was right to use that language —she said that opt-out was wasteful and divisive.
  Not only the Labour party but The Times, many other sectors and Conservative education spokespersons on local authorities object to opting out. We have made it clear that a future Labour Government will seek parliamentary powers to return opted-out schools to local authority provision. We shall denationalise the schools. We shall return them truly to the parents, under local management of schools. There will be no vendetta against the schools. No teachers will be sacked. But we shall return the schools to the LEAs, because we believe that all our children should have an equal right to educational opportunity.

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  From the debates of the past few weeks on not only education but health and every other issue, it has been clear that we have ambition for the public sector. We have ambition for the education of all our children, not just for a fortunate few. It is for that reason that we shall abolish the principle of grant-maintained schools. We shall raise standards for all our children in all our schools and we shall give to parents the right to equal opportunity in our education system. We shall end the principle of opt-out, and for that reason, we shall vote against the regulations.
  10.31 pm
  The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mr. Tim Eggar): The last time the hon. Member for Leeds, Central (Mr. Fatchett) was at the Dispatch Box, he spent 25 minutes obfuscating the Labour party's position on the teachers' pay review body. At least tonight we had a clear explanation, about which we shall make sure that parents throughout the country learn. The Labour party is determined to destroy choice for parents, to destroy good schools and to undermine the democratic wishes of parents' as expressed in the ballot boxes, to have grant-maintained schools.
  Tonight we heard the echo of old-fashioned socialist orthodoxies. Parents should be seen and not heard. The nanny state and nanny LEAs know the answer. I am not surprised that the Opposition decided to pray against the regulations. The one thing that we know about the Opposition's education policies is what they are against. They are against diversity. They are against choice. They are against opportunity. They are against grant-maintained schools. They are against the technology schools. They are against grammar schools. They are against the assisted places scheme. They are against looking to the future. They are in favour of looking back to the drab uniformity that they imposed on Britain in the late 1970s.
  Mr. Richard Tracey: Is my hon. Friend aware of a little problem that the Labour party has—that in Islwyn, the constituency of the Leader of the Opposition, Cwm Carn comprehensive school has successfully become grant-maintained? Apparently that has been welcomed by Labour members of the governing body.
  Mr. Eggar: Indeed, I understand that the campaign for opting out was led by a Labour councillor, just as the campaign for Stratford school in Newham to opt out was led by a Bromley Labour councillor. That is what the grass roots of the Labour party supports. When people see the needs of their local schools they are among the leaders of the campaign for opt-out status. Opposition Members of Parliament are simply out of touch.
  Mr. Tony Banks: The Minister knows that that particular Labour councillor wanted to become a teacher at the school that he was trying to persuade to opt out and was even trying to turn it into a Muslim school, so he should not try to mislead the House.
  Mr. Eggar: That is an interesting example of brotherly love within the democratic Labour party. I know that the hon. Gentleman does not like Councillor Singh or the fact
  384
  that the parents of children at Stratford school voted to opt out. Those parents rejected the outright intimidation by Newham local education authority.
  Mr. Scivetti, a parent at Stratford school, said in a letter:
  "The children once isolated are then questioned before the class to give their reasons for wanting to stay in a school with no future. As a parent of one of the children treated in this way, I find this intolerable."
  I look to the hon. Gentleman for Newham, North-West, in whose constituency that happened, to condemn such activities, which were promoted by Newham LEA and supported by teachers within the school. Mr. Scivetti's letter continued:
  "Those particularly vulnerable under this onslaught are the parents from the large ethnic communities who have great respect for authority and do not want trouble."
  The hon. Gentleman should support Stratford as a grant-maintained school, just as I presume he supports the other schools in his constituency.
  Mr. Tony Banks: I do not support Stratford as a grant-maintained school, and the Minister knows why. The only reason why Stratford opted out was that it was due for closure. The Minister's cheap Tory dogma led that school to get grant-maintained status. It had nothing whatsoever to do with educational standards.
  Mr. Eggar: The hon. Gentleman is much more at home as the House of Commons jester than showing synthetic indignation on behalf of Newham LEA.
  Mr. Robert B. Jones: It was not synthetic indignation but indignation at the fact that people can vote to determine their children's future. That is what the hon. Gentleman does not like. Why did he not take the opportunity, while he was on his feet, to condemn the fact that the Labour-controlled council in Avon even denied a bus pass to an 11-year-old girl because whe went to a grant-maintained school?
  Mr. Banks: I do not represent Avon.
  Mr. Eggar: The Labour party is also making direct threats against teachers at grant-maintained schools. Stephen Byers, leader of the Association of Metropolitan Authorities and a Labour parliamentary candidate, directly threatened teachers at GM schools when he said that LEAs
  "will be extremely reluctant to employ people, especially head teachers and deputies, who have already embraced … opting out."
  So much for Labour caring about teachers' careers and their conditions of service.
  Mr. Harry Greenway: Is my hon. Friend aware that the children of the Leader of the Opposition went to a school in my constituency? I know that he thinks highly of that school, but it has voted by a large majority to opt out.
  Mr. Eggar: There are examples all around the country of parents getting together with governors, teachers and headmasters, and deciding that the way forward for their schools and children is by taking grant-maintained status. The school in Ealing is just one example of many.
  Mr. Fatchett: A few moments ago, the Minister said that the Labour party's policy was to operate a vendetta against teachers in grant-maintained schools. I made it

  385
  abundantly clear in the final part of my speech that there would be no vendetta against those involved in grant-maintained schools. We have said that before.
  The Minister referred to Stephen Byers, chairman of the AMA education committee. If the hon. Member did not rely just on the Daily Mail for his news coverage, he would find that I spoke on the same platform at that conference. Within five minutes of Stephen Byers finishing his speech, I made it abundantly clear, and it was reported in the newspapers, that the official Labour party policy, not the AMA policy, is that there will be no vendetta against the children and teachers in those schools. It ill behoves the Minister to go round peddling those lies time after time. It is about time that the Minister started to tell the truth and make the record clear.
  Mr. Eggar: I am sorry that Peter Mandelson did not get the hon. Member for Leeds, Central (Mr. Fatchett) and Mr. Byers together. Neither the hon. Member for Leeds, Central nor Mr. Byers has denied that Stephen Byers made that statement, and Mr. Byers has not withdrawn it. The Labour party is committed to withdrawing the right of parents to vote freely for their school to opt out. What is more, the Labour party is determined to destroy the GM schools that have decided to opt out and return them to their former status without any democratic vote.
  I said that a large number of schools—2,000—had expressed serious interest in grant-maintained status. There are now 62 grant-maintained schools in operation. We have approved 77 applications, while 45 more proposals for GM status have been published and will reach Ministers for decision shortly. Some 24 more proposals are awaited following parental ballots in favour of seeking grant-maintained status and 75 schools are committed to holding ballots in the next few weeks. In the past six months, the total number of schools to vote in favour of GM status has doubled from 80 in November 1990 to 160 now.
  Mr. Thurnham: The Labour party says there are to be no vendettas but is my hon. Friend aware that Councillor Hardman, who was expelled from the Labour party, was re-elected as an independent Labour councillor on 2 May? Does that not show that people want schools to have the freedom to choose and not to be subject to the dogma and ideology of the Labour party?
  Mr. Eggar: Of course, people want to be able to choose the future for their schools and children. That is why we have such overwhelming support for GM status, and why those schools with GM status have been so successful—they have the support of parents and children.
  Mr. Martin Flannery: The Minister heard my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, Central (Mr. Fatchett) give massive amounts of data about the bribing that is going on to get schools to opt out as opposed to remaining in the state sector by offering vast amounts of money per child. Why does not the Minister answer the accusation, which all hon. Members know is true, that many of the schools which opted out—only 1 per cent. did so—were due for closure and decided to opt out so that they could remain open when otherwise they would not have had enough pupils to do so.
  Mr. Eggar: As ever, the hon. Gentleman is out of date. A small minority of schools that now have GM status faced section 12 or section 13 closure notices at the same
  386
  time, but many of them have been remarkably successful and have enjoyed a huge increase in the number of pupils applying to attend them.
  The hon. Member for Leeds, Central discussed whether there are financial advantages in schools becoming grant-maintained. There are. The schools spend in the schools the money that was previously spent on their behalf by the LEAs—and they spend it as they choose to. The orders, to which the hon. Gentleman did not once refer, stipulate a 16 per cent. add-on for GM schools. That 16 per cent. comes from the contribution that the LEAs would otherwise make to the funding of such schools centrally. Many parents who vote for GM status do so because they believe that the schools will spend the money better than the LEAs—
  Mr. Fatchett: Will the Minister now respond to the parliamentary questions that I have tabled and explain how the 16 per cent. figure was arrived at? The average figure for LEAs with opt-out schools was 14 per cent. Will the 16 per cent. last for another two years, since the Government appear to be proposing to cut the delegated budget further? The 16 per cent. figure bears no relation to economic reality; the Government plucked it out of the air, so as to put more money into GM schools.
  Mr. Eggar: As usual, the hon. Gentleman has not done his homework. He is not comparing like with like. He knows perfectly well that the 16 per cent. standard figure for the central annual maintenance grant element is based on the average for the GM sector in the 1990–91 financial year. We shall look at that in the light of experience with a view to starting in January 1993—
  Mr. Anthony Coombs: The debate should go no further without our challenging the empty rhetoric of the hon. Member for Leeds, Central (Mr. Fatchett), who says that the Labour party is in no way vindictive to the children who attend GM schools. The fact is that the Labour party gives support to councils such as Birmingham, which will not even allow the pupils of the opted-out school in Small Heath to use the city's libraries, or the pupils of Baverstock school to use the school swimming pools; and to the Labour council of Tameside, which prevented a young boy from representing the under-15 Tameside cricket team because he happened to go to an opt-out school.
  Mr. Eggar: That is the true face of the Labour party. It ignores the democratically expressed wishes of the parents—[ Interruption.] What is worse, Opposition Members are laughing about it. They admit that they have no control over Stephen Byers, the Labour leader of the AMA, but we would expect them to have some control over Labour-led councils. Not a bit of it. They do not disown such councils: they condone their activities, as my hon. Friend says.
  Mrs. Maureen Hicks: Will my hon. Friend join me in praising the good sense of the parents of Wolverhampton who only last week persevered, through him, to achieve opt-out status for Moseley school? I am afraid to say that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-East (Mr. Turner) is not in his place to praise those parents. Despite blatant political intimidation by the local Labour council, they persevered and exercised their choice in the interests of their pupils.
  Mr. Eggar: A remarkable feature of the debate is that there are more Labour Front-Bench spokesmen than there are Labour Back-Benchers. The reason is that Labour Members, with the exception of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker), are frightened to turn up because they know about the popularity of grant-maintained status and do not want to be seen to oppose parents' rights to opt out.
  Mr. Jack Straw: I am grateful to the Minister for giving me the opportunity to explain the whereabouts of my colleagues. They are in Monmouth, and we understand why Conservative Members are so frightened to go there.
  Mr. Eggar: Many parents with children at grant-maintained schools, and many schools thinking about grant-maintained status will notice the absence of their Members of Parliament and will wonder why they remained silent.
  Mr. Straw: It is late.
  Mr. Eggar: Are Labour Members now part-timers who do not bother to work beyond half-past seven? That will also have to be drawn to the attention of the constituents of Opposition Members. That remark by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) was a real gaffe.
  Mr. Rupert Allason: Will my hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Eggar: Yes, for the last time.
  Mr. Allason: Bearing in mind the fact that it is Labour's official policy to return all grant-maintained schools to the control of local authorities, what advice would my hon. Friend give to parents, headmasters, schools and school governors who are contemplating an application for grant-maintained status?
  Mr. Eggar: I would say two things: first, vote Conservative and, secondly, at the next election campaign put Labour candidates on the spot. Ask the candidates, preferably at meetings in schools, to set out their policy and say whether they agree with official Labour policy. If they agree with that policy, the news can be circulated to all parents in the schools that Labour and its candidates intend to destroy the schools that parents have worked so hard to support and build up.
  I am delighted at the result of the debate, because it has shown yet again that Labour is stuck in a time warp. The real world is moving on. The Opposition may not trust parents, but the parents and children of this country can be sure that we trust them to decide the best education for their children.
  10.52 pm
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: One of the people who work for us here has told me that his street has been cabled and that people there receive 24-hour coverage of our proceedings. I am not convinced that people watching this debate—there may be one or two—will think that it reflects much credit on the House or has been of much advantage to parents who are concerned about the education of their children.
  Much heat has been generated, but little reference has been made to the detail of the regulations that we are here to debate. There has been no real attempt to address the position of the 99 per cent. of schools that have not opted out, or to try to solve the problems in schools that have not been given the financial advantages of grant-maintained status.
  If the Government could promise every school the financial backing that they are giving to grant-maintained schools, many of education's problems could be solved, but it is clear from Government budgets that they have no intention of doing so. They cannot expect every school to opt out, because they have not applied the financial muscle that would allow that to happen.
  That is why hon. Members, at least those on the Opposition Benches, talk about the creation of a two-tier system. The policy is clearly designed around a small, financially enhanced sector of grant-maintained schools as opposed to the large majority of local education authority schools that do not have that financial backing.
  The evidence of the differential in finances between the two is clear. The figure has already been given tonight. Any hon. Member who doubts it can easily look it up. There is nothing suspect about it. It is clear and factual and can be found in answers to questions asked in this place.
  I draw hon. Members' attention to that because we must address ways of generating support and enhanced education in 100 per cent. of our schools, not in 1 per cent. That should be the main agenda which we debate rather than generating the kind of heat that we have seen tonight over a tiny minority.
  The regulations take forward yet another step that differential in funding. But they do so in a rather peculiar and arbitrary manner, of which I am not sure that Conservative Members are aware. It should be a matter of concern to them because—
  Mr. Kenneth Hind: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Taylor: Let me elaborate this point and then I shall be happy to give way.
  When the legislation was introduced we were told that grant-maintained schools would not receive more money than neighbouring LEA schools. But quite apart from the argument about the current situation, we find that the regulations introduced tonight achieve precisely that. Schools in LEAs which hold less than 16 per cent. of the schools's budget centrally—there are at least 34 on the figures of the Department of Education and Science—will now be given an additional incentive to opt out because they will end up with more money than schools remaining with the LEA, simply because of the averaging process that the regulations introduce.
  That is an incentive that may prove impossible to ignore when schools are so badly underfunded. Nobody can be surprised at or criticise a school governing body
  390
  which looks at the financial incentives that are on offer and finds it hard, however much they may disagree with the principle, to argue to parents that the school should reject the financial opportunities that are being offered because of an ideological or teaching objection. They may believe that that is not the right way to go, but for the sake of the children in the school, a few may decide that they must take the bribe which the Government said that they would not offer, but which in practice they do offer.
  It is in those LEAs that delegate most to their schools that there is the greatest financial bribe to opt out. In other words, the schools in what in the Government's terms in one respect are the best LEAs are being paid to opt out from that LEA.
  That may affect some Conservative Members because, by contrast, a school in an LEA which does not decentralise its budget and delegate to the average level that is used in these figures, will be financially penalised for opting out. Those schools in the LEAs which in the Government's terms least accept the Government's policies and are behaving most badly in the Government's terms will face a financial penalty if they opt out of the LEA. What an extraordinary measure to be introducing tonight.
  I came here tonight assuming that that would be the main feature of the debate. It seemed reasonable. It is a rather extraordinary thing for Ministers to be proposing even within their own terms. It has not yet been debated in any detail. It was mentioned in passing in a question, but that was it. Yet that is the reality of the regulations that Conservative Members will march through the Lobby and support.
  Perhaps all the Conservative Members sitting opposite represent the 34 local authorities that go above average in delegation of finances to schools. So they may be arguing and voting for those schools in their areas to have that advantage—that would perhaps be understandable. However, it would seem extraordinary if, as I would imagine, at least some of those Conservative Members are going to vote tonight to penalise schools for opting out —a policy which I do not agree with. We have heard them arguing throughout the evening that they agree with it, yet they will be voting for a financial penalty on it.
  The regulations should be rejected by Opposition Members because we disagree with the principle, and by Conservative Members because they would be voting for something which will work counter-productive to the very thing that they are arguing for.
  Mr. HindAre we to understand from what the hon. Gentleman has said that he is doing what local authorities such as Lancashire are doing—everything they possibly can to discourage schools and parents from choosing grant-maintained status? Setting aside the arguments about cost, which he has put forcefully and which Conservative Members do not agree with, would the Liberal Democrats refuse parents the choice of grant-maintained schools?
  Mr. Taylor: The answer to that is clear, and we make no pretence about it—we do not believe in the principle of grant-maintained schools and we would not have them. In a moment, I shall elaborate what we would do, which may be helpful to the debate.
  Mr. Michael Colvin: Would the hon. Gentleman advise me what I might tell parents

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  with children at the Hardley school in the constituency —a school of about 680 pupils—who have voted for grant-maintained status and the majority of whom have just voted SLD in the local government elections? There is also an SLD county councillor and I congratulate the SLD candidates on winning. Would the hon. Gentleman tell me, in words that they would understand, precisely what is the SLD policy on grant-maintained status, and what I should tell parents of children at the Hardley school, which was the first to take grant-maintained status in Hampshire?
  Mr. Taylor: Among other things, the hon. Gentleman should tell them that they will shortly have a Liberal Democrat Member of Parliament to add to the county and district councillors, but I do not know the details of the area. I certainly hope that that is the way things are going —from what the hon. Gentleman has said, that appears to be the case.
  I shall elaborate on how we should be approaching this matter. We should not be in the business—as the Government have been—of nationalising the control of schools. Bringing ministerial control over schools does not seem to be to introduce greater diversity. Neither should we be in the business of creating a two-tier system of education, with some schools financially rewarded, but most continuing to go without.
  By bringing schools within the local education authorities, we should be saying that the LEA's role is not to dictate to schools how they should operate, or to control them, but to be enablers and to ensure that special needs education provision is available, that quality is of the best sort and that a school place is available to every child.
  The control of education—the form in which it is delivered and its growth—should be achieved through the school.
  Mr. Barry Field rose—
  Mr. Taylor: I shall give way in a moment.
  That is why we seek to set every school free, not a few or just I per cent.—and to give every school greater independence within the LEA. That policy maximises diversity and choice and maximises local rather than national control. It ensures a policy that is directed at 100 per cent. of our children rather than one that is directed at just 1 per cent. of our children.
  Mr. Field: Can the hon. Gentleman explain why the only Liberal Democrat-controlled local education authority in the shire counties—the Isle of Wight county council —sacked a number of school governors after the Liberal Democrats won the last election? If that is not dictatorship, what is it?
  Mr. Taylor: It is gratifying to respond to a number of hon. Members who will be replaced by Liberal Democrat Members of Parliament at the general election. The answer is contained in a letter that I recently received from one of the Education Ministers. He levelled criticism at both Labour and Conservative authorities that choose to appoint only governors from the ruling political party, whether Conservative or Labour. The only party that is prepared in every area of the country to argue that governing bodies should reflect the plurality of views in the community is the Liberal Democrats. That was made
  392
  absolutely clear in the letter that I received from the Minister. It clearly picks out both Labour and Conservative councillors for doing exactly the opposite. It rightly criticised them for doing so.
  I have put forward clear reasons for opposing the draft regulations, whether one is for or against grant-maintained schools. The policy that the Minister has set out, upon which he has made no comment, penalises those schools that opt out in local authorities that do least to delegate to schools, and helps those schools to opt out in local authorities that do the most to delegate to schools. What an extraordinary policy to pursue. It will not go unremarked among those who are struggling in areas where local education authorities do not delegate to schools that Conservative Members wish to penalise those who support grant-maintained schools and want to pursue that option.
  11.7 pm
  Mr. James Pawsey: I listened with interest to the two Opposition speeches, particularly to that of the hon. Member for Leeds, Central (Mr. Fatchett). Let me give both the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues a word of warning. They make exactly the same mistake with grant-maintained schools as they did with the sale of council houses. The Opposition will be forced to change their policy and to adopt the policy that is advocated by this side.
  The only point to come out of the speech of the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) was that we now know where the Liberal party apparently stands. It opposes the concept of grant-maintained schools. That is the signal that this House should send out to the country—that if grant-maintained schools are here to stay, it will only be because of the work of Conservative Members.
  Grant-maintained schools receive funding direct from the Department of Education and Science without losing the 15 per cent. that is creamed off by local education authorities. That point was made by the Minister. That 15 per cent. will go to schools. I am convinced that schools know best how to spend their own allocation of money without the intervention of the bureaucrats or administrators at shire hall or elsewhere. That is the reason why local management of schools is proving to be so successful. Grant-maintained status takes that a stage further. In the main, parents know best what is right for their children and, equally, most schools know best what is right for their pupils. I therefore welcome the greater freedom that grant-maintained schools enjoy. I regret the attitude adopted by some local education authorities whose intention is to make the path of grant-maintained status more difficult than the House intended when it passed the Education Reform Act 1988.
  Mr. Christopher Gill: Is my hon. Friend aware of the leaflet issued by the director of education of the metropolitan borough of Dudley, in which he says:
  "Essentially the local authority believes that grant-maintained schools should be isolated"?
  He goes on:
  "In particular, the local authority would insist that all officers/advisers … do not co-operate in whole or in part with grant-maintained schools"
  on, among other things,
  "access to bulk purchase agreements".
  How small-minded can one be? Surely that is cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
  Mr. Pawsey: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point.
  I should like to give an example from my local education authority of the unhelpful attitude being adopted. I want to quote briefly from a letter produced by Warwickshire county council addressed to all head teachers and chairmen of governing bodies.
  I have to say, in all fairness, that the letter makes it clear
  "that for many schools the short-term financial benefits associated with opting out are considerable."
  The only query I have about that statement is the insertion of "short-term". The benefit are indeed considerable.
  The leaflet also says that the education committee decided in April this year
  "to delay any planned capital works in a school where a parental ballot is being held so that if a 'yes' vote results, LEA schools may be more fully supported."
  I believe that decision to be unfair, unjust and totally unwarranted. The parents of children at schools considering grant-maintained status have paid through their community charge and through their taxes for the upkeep of those schools. Therefore, they should be supported by the LEA until the school becomes grant-maintained. To do otherwise is inequitable and disregards the contributions made by parents over the years.
  Warwickshire is not alone. I am obliged to my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill) for his comments about Dudley. Clearly, the chief education officer of Dudley believes that the LEA is privileged and that only the LEA is capable of delivering good education to the nation's children. I have news for both that chief education officer and for Opposition Members: grant-maintained schools are here to stay because parents want them. If the Labour party, which has made so much of ballots in other connections, intends to ignore the wishes of parents—[AN HON. MEMBER: "And Liberals."] I am obliged to my hon. Friend for that comment. If the Labour party and the Liberals, too, choose to ignore the expressed wishes of parents, they do so at their peril.
  I should like briefly to touch on a telling point made earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, West (Mr. Jones) about a question during Prime Minister's Questions yesterday. The Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition said:
  "Does the Prime Minister recall saying, just last Friday, that he trusts the people? Why does he not trust the people enough to allow them to vote democratically on whether they want their local hospitals to opt out? What is he afraid of? Why is he always running away from the ballot box?"—[Official Report, 14 May 1991; Vol. 191, c. 148.]
  Let me tell Opposition Members that on grant-maintained schools they are running away with the ballot box. If they have confidence in what they are doing, let the people decide.
  Mr. Robert B. Jones: While my hon. Friend is on the subject of the two-tier Labour policy approach, has he noticed that Labour and Liberal Members often support the United Nations when they want, but they do not support the United Nations declaration on human rights which says that parents have a prior right to the choice of their children's education? Opposition Members believe that bureaucrats and politicians have the prior right. That is where they are inconsistent, and it is why parents will reject them.
  Mr. Pawsey: I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful intervention.
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  I remind the House that grant-maintained schools are created as a direct result of parental commitment. They are what parents want, as distinct from what some educationists and chief education officers think they want. Grant-maintained status comes about only as a result of a free vote of parents expressed through a ballot.
  Mrs. Maureen Hicks: Will my hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Pawsey: No, my hon. Friend must forgive me if I continue.
  With the benefit of funding set out and confirmed by this statutory instrument, grant-maintained schools will be one of the engines for educational changes. I say in parenthesis that the benefits that accrue to grant-maintained schools are not merely financial. The greatest benefit to grant-maintained schools is the independence that they enjoy. The apron strings that secure them to the local education authority are cut. That was the point made by the chief education officer in Dudley.
  In their usual vindictive and spiteful fashion and in their unceasing drive for greyness and uniformity, the Opposition have become the party of the new abolitionists. They will abolish grant-maintained schools, they will abolish grammar schools, they will abolish city technology colleges and they will abolish the assisted places scheme. They seek to abolish even the tax concessions that enable independent schools to survive. The reason is the same in each case—they believe that such schools are a threat to the established order of the neighbourhood comprehensive. The Labour party has become as fossilised in its beliefs as the dinosaurs, and it will go the same way.
  11.16 pm
  Mr. Jeff Rooker: I came tonight to listen and had not intended to speak, but the Minister questioned why I was here. The reason why I —a Front Bencher who speaks on other policies—came to listen was simple.
  Leaving aside the rhetoric and hot air that we have heard, I represent a constituency that contains the largest opt-out school. It has 2,000 pupils and, to the best of my knowledge, no other school as large as Great Barr has opted out. The ballot was hotly contested and the staff voted against opting out. I speak from memory without the benefit of the files, but I believe that the turnout was about 60 or 61 per cent., which I thought deplorable. I was ashamed that about 39 per cent. of my constituents did not vote on such an important issue. The decision to opt out succeeded by only about 60 votes. Thirty-one per cent. of the parents carried that decision. I emphasise that it was 31 per cent. of parents with children at the school, not the parents with children at the dozen or so feeder schools.
  That deals, by the way, with a point made about the health service. If there were ballots in the health service, it would not be only the patients in the hospital at the time of the ballot who voted, but the community. The same argument applies to schools—those who vote should not be merely the parents who have children in a school in a snapshot in time. If the decision to opt out in a school that has 2,000 pupils and is probably the second or third largest secondary school in England can be carried by 31 per cent. of the vote, it sets a high-risk strategy for the future.
  I fear for the future of Great Barr school. I attended it when it was a traditional secondary modern. It holds Jeff Rooker's Hansard library—all the bound copies of

  395
  Hansard that I have received are there. Even when a fire raiser burned down the library last year, Her Majesty's Stationery Office and the insurance company replaced the copies which will continue to go there as that is where they have always gone. I do not draw any distinctions. I am dealing with my constituents, the children of my constituents and the school, and there should be no difference in the way that one represents and takes an interest in them. I am worried, however, because such a momentous decision was taken by only 31 per cent. of the parents. That is dangerous.
  The Conservative parliamentary candidate for my constituency did not speak in favour of the opt-out when the struggle took place last year. There was complete silence on that front. I have no doubt that he holds views that he has decided not to express.
  The opt-out did not follow the threat of closure—I am talking of one of the most successful schools in Birmingham. Indeed, I would argue that it is the most successful in the city. Its pupils went to every university and polytechnic in the country before it was confronted with the decision whether to opt out. Leaving aside difficulties with the fabric, the school was immensely successful. It was money alone that dictated the decision to opt out. There is a massive budget of millions of pounds, and there was a straight half a million on the line initially. What group of governors will pass up about £500,000? The governors knew that at the end of the day the money would come from other schools. That touched the consciences of some of them, but the general feeling was, "We put our school first. It is someone else's job to put his school first." I drew the issue to the attention of the governors and I received no reply.
  Mr. Nigel Spearing: Will my hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Rooker: I ask my hon. Friend to forgive me for not giving way. I wish to speak for only a few more minutes.
  I am sorry that the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mr. Coombs) has left the Chamber. I venture to suggest that he left when he saw me seeking to participate in the debate. I have a question for the hon. Gentleman. I think that I am the only Labour Member who has a Tory Member chairing the governing body of a secondary school in his constituency. I should explain that it is not the school to which I have been referring. It is, of course, a school that is some way from Wyre Forest. What has the hon. Gentleman done to get the governing body that he chairs to take advantage of the great opt-out scheme? As I said, the hon. Gentleman is not in his place. At some stage, I should like an answer to my question. The hon. Gentleman skirted the issue this evening.
  During the next general election I shall fight to bring all schools within the same service, with the maximum devolution and delegation of management power to their heads. I do not want the dead hand of bureaucracy to bear down on our schools any more than is necessary. In other words, I want an education service. I do not want groups of schools competing and vying with one another in an effort to do down their competitors so that they can secure more money, thereby damaging pupils and education prospects in other schools. I am not prepared to put up
  396
  with that. I make no bones about it, I want the opted-out schools brought back within the education service. They are presently outwith it, and that is not good for the future.
  The vital ballot will be the general election. The people will make the decision. It will not be left to the parents or the staff of the school. Instead, the issue will be decided by the widest possible spread of the community.
  I have referred to Great Barr school, and the hon. Member for Wyre Forest chairs the board of governors of Perry Common school. There are two other relevant schools in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell), and the hon. Member for Wyre Forest referred to them. They were the first two to opt out.
  The payroll machinery for Great Barr school has been operated by the treasurer's department of Birmingham city council because it put in a bid to do the work; but let us get rid of the canard that the city council does not want anything to do with the schools that have opted out. The bid was accepted gladly by the head, who said that he was more than happy to accept it. As a result of a quirk in the law that applies to the provision of school meals, the school has been prevented from servicing the local junior school, which is on the same site. That is stupid. Now school meals are to be bussed in from another school miles away. That is absolutely barmy. In some ways I see it as a disservice to my constituents. [Interruption.] If the Minister can tell me that there will be an end to that nonsense, I shall certainly give way.
  Mr. Eggar: Unfortunately, the Birmingham authority is one of only three or four Labour local authorities that have decided to provide services to grant-maintained schools. It is a very welcome decision. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should have a word with his hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) and suggest that Newham adopt exactly the same policy as Birmingham.
  Mr. Rooker: I am glad that I have got my point across. The local authority won the teachers' ballot. It is free to provide the services. I argue that every authority in this county could learn from Birmingham. I have made my point about the schools and about the actions of the city. The school to which I have referred is a large one, and opting out is a high-risk strategy when it is based on a vote of only 31 per cent. of parents. That worries me deeply.
  11.25 pm
  Mr. George Walden: Some hon. Members have said that these regulations represent a bribe. I hope that they will prove to be an inducement. Consider the local authority forces—legitimate and less legitimate—that opting-out schools are up against. It seems that anything that can be done to smooth the path of the electorate towards choosing to opt out—having a fair choice, and having that choice implemented quickly —will be a good thing. The main feature of these regulations is that they will introduce clarity about a school's financial position, and will speed up the process of opting out. I hope that that in itself will act as an inducement to go along this very difficult path. We are talking about a David and Goliath syndrome.
  The hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) ventured on to extremely dangerous ground when he talked about electoral turnout. The education authority

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  for the constituency of the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) is Lancashire county council. At the last election, the turnout in the hon. Gentleman's constituency was 38.2 per cent.[Interruption.] Yes, the last council election. In this country, it is councils that run education policy. [AN HON. MEMBER: "Blackburn does not."] Lancashire does. I am making this point with reference to the constituency of the hon. Member for Perry Barr. The figure for that constituency was 38·2 per cent., and for Lancashire it was 40 per cent.
  On the basis of such figures, county councils have enormous power. They dictate policy and they persecute individual opting-out schools.
  Mr. Flannery: Come on.
  Mr. Walden: The hon. Gentleman need not say, "Come on." We have been given many examples.
  When the hon. Member for Perry Barr laments the 60 per cent. turnout in the vote in respect of his school, he should ask himself what kind of democracy we have in education at present. Very often, the turnout is below 50 per cent. In the case of Lancashire county council, it is 40 per cent. and in the case of Blackburn, 38·2 per cent. If we are to talk about democracy, let us get it right. At present, we have a totally undemocratic system of education administration, if only because the turnout in local elections is the lowest in Europe, whereas the power of local education bureaucracies is among the highest in Europe.
  What the Opposition have given us tonight is totally disingenuous, whereas what the Government are giving us is common sense, good sense and principled sense. The hon. Member for Leeds, Central (Mr. Fatchett), in his opening remarks, made a very interesting slip of the tongue. He said, "We are going to abolish the principle of opting out." Those were his words. People do not abolish principles; principles exist, and they remain, and the principle of choice will remain. Choice is not dogma; it is uniformity that is dogma, as we have seen in eastern Europe. I give the Opposition full marks for their consistency. They not only want to introduce uniformity in the organisation of our schools, and to abolish grant-maintained schools—
  It being half-past Eleven o'clock, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER put the Question, pursuant to Order [10 May].
  The House divided: Ayes 118, Noes 262.

  Division No. 145]

  [11.30 pm

  AYES

  Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley, N.)

  Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

  Allen, Graham

  Campbell-Savours, D. N.

  Armstrong, Hilary

  Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

  Ashton, Joe

  Clwyd, Mrs Ann

  Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

  Cohen, Harry

  Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

  Corbyn, Jeremy

  Battle, John

  Cox, Tom

  Beckett, Margaret

  Cryer, Bob

  Beith, A. J.

  Cummings, John

  Bellotti, David

  Cunliffe, Lawrence

  Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

  Cunningham, Dr John

  Boateng, Paul

  Darling, Alistair

  Boyes, Roland

  Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

  Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

  Dewar, Donald

  Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

  Dixon, Don

  Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

  Doran, Frank

  Buckley, George J.

  Dunnachie, Jimmy

  Caborn, Richard

  Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

  Callaghan, Jim

  Eastham, Ken

  Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

  Fatchett, Derek

  398

  Fearn, Ronald

  Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

  Flannery, Martin

  Martlew, Eric

  Foster, Derek

  Maxton, John

  Fyfe, Maria

  Meale, Alan

  Galloway, George

  Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

  George, Bruce

  Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

  Godman, Dr Norman A.

  Mullin, Chris

  Golding, Mrs Llin

  Nellist, Dave

  Gordon, Mildred

  O'Brien, William

  Graham, Thomas

  Patchett, Terry

  Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

  Pendry, Tom

  Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

  Pike, Peter L.

  Haynes, Frank

  Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

  Heal, Mrs Sylvia

  Primarolo, Dawn

  Hinchliffe, David

  Quin, Ms Joyce

  Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

  Richardson, Jo

  Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

  Robertson, George

  Howells, Geraint

  Rooker, Jeff

  Hoyle, Doug

  Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Ruddock, Joan

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Illsley, Eric

  Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

  Kirkwood, Archy

  Smith, Rt Hon J. (Monk'ds E)

  Lambie, David

  Soley, Clive

  Lamond, James

  Spearing, Nigel

  Lewis, Terry

  Steinberg, Gerry

  Livsey, Richard

  Straw, Jack

  Lofthouse, Geoffrey

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

  Loyden, Eddie

  Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

  McAllion, John

  Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)

  McAvoy, Thomas

  Vaz, Keith

  Macdonald, Calum A.

  Wallace, James

  McKelvey, William

  Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)

  McLeish, Henry

  Winnick, David

  McMaster, Gordon

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  McNamara, Kevin

  Worthington, Tony

  McWilliam, John

  Wray, Jimmy

  Madden, Max

  Mahon, Mrs Alice

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Marek, Dr John

  Mr. Allen McKay and Mr. Robert Wareing.

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  NOES

  Adley, Robert

  Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick

  Alexander, Richard

  Buck, Sir Antony

  Alison, Rt Hon Michael

  Budgen, Nicholas

  Allason, Rupert

  Burns, Simon

  Amess, David

  Burt, Alistair

  Amos, Alan

  Butler, Chris

  Arbuthnot, James

  Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Carrington, Matthew

  Ashby, David

  Carttiss, Michael

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Cash, William

  Atkins, Robert

  Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda

  Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

  Channon, Rt Hon Paul

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Chapman, Sydney

  Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

  Chope, Christopher

  Beggs, Roy

  Colvin, Michael

  Bellingham, Henry

  Conway, Derek

  Bendall, Vivian

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

  Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Benyon, W.

  Cope, Rt Hon John

  Bevan, David Gilroy

  Cran, James

  Biffen, Rt Hon John

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Blackburn, Dr John G.

  Curry, David

  Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

  Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  Boscawen, Hon Robert

  Day, Stephen

  Boswell, Tim

  Dickens, Geoffrey

  Bottomley, Peter

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Dover, Den

  Bowden, A. (Brighton K'pto'n)

  Dunn, Bob

  Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

  Durant, Sir Anthony

  Bowis, John

  Eggar, Tim

  Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

  Brandon-Bravo, Martin

  Evennett, David

  Brazier, Julian

  Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

  Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

  Fallon, Michael

  Browne, John (Winchester)

  Favell, Tony

  399

  Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

  Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey

  Hunter, Andrew

  Fishburn, John Dudley

  Irvine, Michael

  Fookes, Dame Janet

  Jack, Michael

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Janman, Tim

  Forth, Eric

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Fox, Sir Marcus

  Jones, Robert B (Herts W)

  Franks, Cecil

  Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

  French, Douglas

  Key, Robert

  Fry, Peter

  King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

  Gale, Roger

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Gardiner, Sir George

  Knapman, Roger

  Gill, Christopher

  Knight, Greg (Derby North)

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

  Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

  Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

  Knowles, Michael

  Goodhart, Sir Philip

  Knox, David

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Latham, Michael

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  Lee, John (Pendle)

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

  Gorst, John

  Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

  Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

  Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

  Greenway, John (Ryedale)

  Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)

  Gregory, Conal

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E')

  Lord, Michael

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  Luce, Rt Hon Sir Richard

  Ground, Patrick

  Macfarlane, Sir Neil

  Grylls, Michael

  MacGregor, Rt Hon John

  Hague, William

  Maclean, David

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael

  Hanley, Jeremy

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick

  Hannam, John

  Malins, Humfrey

  Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

  Mans, Keith

  Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

  Maples, John

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

  Hawkins, Christopher

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Hayes, Jerry

  Mates, Michael

  Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney

  Maude, Hon Francis

  Hayward, Robert

  Mawhinney, Dr Brian

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE)

  Miller, Sir Hal

  Hill, James

  Mills, Iain

  Hind, Kenneth

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

  Mitchell, Sir David

  Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

  Moate, Roger

  Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Hunt, Rt Hon David

  Moore, Rt Hon John

  400

  Morris, M (N'hampton S)

  Steen, Anthony

  Morrison, Sir Charles

  Stern, Michael

  Moss, Malcolm

  Stevens, Lewis

  Neubert, Sir Michael

  Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Sumberg, David

  Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)

  Summerson, Hugo

  Norris, Steve

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley

  Taylor, Ian (Esher)

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

  Page, Richard

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Paice, James

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Patnick, Irvine

  Thornton, Malcolm

  Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Thurnham, Peter

  Pawsey, James

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

  Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

  Porter, David (Waveney)

  Tracey, Richard

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Tredinnick, David

  Price, Sir David

  Trippier, David

  Raffan, Keith

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Raison, Rt Hon Sir Timothy

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Rathbone, Tim

  Viggers, Peter

  Redwood, John

  Wakeham, Rt Hon John

  Rhodes James, Robert

  Walden, George

  Riddick, Graham

  Walker, Bill (Tside North)

  Ridsdale, Sir Julian

  Waller, Gary

  Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm

  Walters, Sir Dennis

  Roberts, Sir Wyn (Conwy)

  Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

  Ross, William (Londonderry E)

  Warren, Kenneth

  Rossi, Sir Hugh

  Watts, John

  Rumbold, Rt Hon Mrs Angela

  Wells, Bowen

  Ryder, Rt Hon Richard

  Wheeler, Sir John

  Sackville, Hon Tom

  Whitney, Ray

  Sainsbury, Hon Tim

  Widdecombe, Ann

  Sayeed, Jonathan

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Wilkinson, John

  Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

  Wilshire, David

  Shelton, Sir William

  Winterton, Mrs Ann

  Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Wood, Timothy

  Shersby, Michael

  Woodcock, Dr. Mike

  Sims, Roger

  Yeo, Tim

  Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

  Younger, Rt Hon George

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

  Speller, Tony

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

  Mr. David Lightbown and Mr. Nicholas Baker.

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

  Question accordingly negatived.

  Kirklees (Housing Corporation Allocation)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Wood.]
  11.42 pm
  Mr. Graham Riddick: I am grateful to have this opportunity to raise a matter which I regard as thoroughly scandalous. The scandal is that my local council, Kirklees council, which is controlled by the Labour party, is wilfully depriving perhaps as many as 400 homeless people of the chance of being rehoused.
  As a result of Kirklees council's non-co-operation with the housing association movement, the Housing Corporation has felt it necessary to withdraw some £4 million-worth of funding for housing associations within Kirklees this financial year. The council's decision to refuse to co-operate with the Housing Corporation can accurately be described only as spiteful and vindictive, based as it is on pure political dogma. The main losers are homeless people, the very people for whom the Labour party claims to care.
  Let me give you some background information, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In 1989, the Jephson housing association applied to the Housing Corporation for approved landlord status under the tenants' choice scheme in all the 15 local authority areas in which it operated, which included Kirklees. As my hon. Friend the Minister will know better than I, under the tenants' choice scheme local authority tenants can apply for a change of landlord, but such a transfer can take place only if the majority of the tenants have voted for it. Therefore, to apply to be an approved landlord by no means automatically results in the approved landlord taking over local authority housing stocks.
  Jephson wrote to Kirklees council, promising that it would make no unsolicited approaches to council tenants. That meant that, so long as Kirklees council provided a proper and decent service to its tenants, Jephson was unlikely to take over any of its housing stock. In spite of that, Kirklees council took exception to Jephson's application to become an approved landlord and withdrew all co-operation from the housing association.
  None of the 14 other local authorities in which Jephson operated objected to its application to become an approved landlord. Jephson is no fly-by-night landlord but a well-respected housing association within the housing association movement. Last spring, it commissioned a poll —carried out by Birmingham university and National Opinion Polling—among its tenants to find out what they thought of how it was managing the housing stock. The vast majority of those tenants gave a clean bill of health to the Jephson housing association.
  Kirklees council objected on purely ideological grounds. The socialist council believes that only it should run public housing and to hell with the wishes of tenants and homeless people in Kirklees if their needs conflict with the ideological dogma of the socialists.
  The dispute continues to this day, despite the fact that everything that Jephson did was above board, within the law and with the support of the Housing Corporation. The Housing Corporation has attempted to resolve the problem, but has now lost patience with Kirklees council. It believes in working closely with local authorities, but, because of its poor relationship with Kirklees council, the grant to housing associations within Kirklees is some £4
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  million less than it would otherwise have been. It is certainly £4 million below what the housing needs index shows that Kirklees should receive in this financial year. It is receiving £8 million as opposed to the £12 million shown on the index.
  The gainers are other councils in West Yorkshire, notably Leeds, which are prepared to co-operate with the Housing Corporation. A couple of years ago, the regional director of the Housing Corporation, Mr. Clark, said that the corporation had met more problems with Kirklees than any other council in the region. He said:
  "Over the last four years Kirklees has lost £12m against the needs index"
  for the district.
  A local newspaper, the Huddersfield Daily Examiner, recently published a letter from a committee member of the West Yorkshire housing association, Mr. Coldwell, which also operates within Kirklees. He said that housing associations were in the business of providing housing at an affordable rate. He also said:
  "I consider Kirklees' record on working with our association lamentable, to say the least.
  Time and time again Kirklees' bureaucracy has delayed our progress in providing homes for the homeless … For good luck to the homeless in Leeds read bad luck to the homeless in Kirklees."
  As Mr. Coldwell said in his letter, he is a member of the Labour party but is dismayed by the behaviour of Kirklees council in that matter.
  I initiated this Adjournment debate to draw that thoroughly unsatisfactory situation to the attention of my hon. Friend the Minister and to ask him to see whether he can resolve it. In some ways it seems a little surprising that the Housing Corporation is able to withhold grant from a particular area. However, there is no doubt that this fiasco can be laid fairly and squarely at the door of the socialist council for refusing to co-operate with the housing association movement.
  We hear Labour councillors going on about the problems of homelessness and the fact that councillors are not allowed to build new housing. The position in Kirklees shows as clearly as anything could do why some local authorities cannot be trusted with the responsibility of providing for housing needs.
  Mrs. Elizabeth Peacock: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Kirklees federation of tenants associations was telling council tenants that if they chose another landlord, they would not be eligible for housing benefit as it was provided just because they lived in Kirklees houses? Is it not disgraceful that an authority such as Kirklees, which is always saying that it has no money and no housing—I hope that next week my hon. Friend the Minister will see the condition of some of that housing—could lose £4 million that is desperately needed for housing? If the authority got its act together and co-operated, that money could be available for homeless people.
  Mr. Riddick: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and entirely agree with her comments. On her first point, it is absolutely right that Kirklees tenants should have an organisation to represent their views. However, it is reprehensible if the Kirklees federation of tenants associations is spreading scare stories that tenants would not be eligible for housing benefit if the council's housing

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  stock was transferred to a housing association. The federation has a responsibility to ensure that the information that it provides to its members is accurate.
  My hon. Friend's second point was absolutely correct. So often we hear Labour councillors in Kirklees and elsewhere complaining about the problems of homelessness. However, Kirklees councillors are responsible for denying the creation of places for perhaps 400 homeless people this year, which is unforgivable. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister can do something about that.
  Perhaps Kirklees council should be known as the £4 million council, because it has lost Kirklees homeless people £4 million in Housing Corporation grants. It has failed to claim £4 million from the utility companies because it has not carried out the appropriate repairs to excavations in the roads. There are £4 million of rent arrears outstanding in Kirklees.
  The irony is that, as far as I am aware, no local authority tenants have taken advantage of the tenants' choice scheme since it was created a couple of years ago. Do the Government have any plans to make the tenants' choice scheme more popular? Like many hon. Members, I find that complaints about council houses rank high among the issues raised in my constituency surgeries and mail, but no tenants have opted to take advantage of the tenants' choice scheme.
  Perhaps that is because the procedures involved are complicated, or because the National Federation of Housing Associations has effectively said that its members will not get involved unless the local authority is happy with such a proposal. Perhaps asssurances relating to security of tenure, rent and so on are insufficiently strong. Perhaps it is because the Kirklees federation of tenants associations, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen (Mrs. Peacock) referred, has been spreading misleading information. Perhaps it is simply because tenants are unaware of the opportunities provided by the tenants' choice scheme.
  Whatever the reason for the lack of interest in the tenants' choice scheme, it would be well worth while the Government's looking at it again to see how it could be made more attractive to tenants. I am sure that it would be in the interests of some tenants to take advantage of the scheme, and I should be grateful if my hon. Friend the Minister would say what plans he has to promote the scheme. The scheme fits in perfectly with the Government's belief in empowering the consumers of public services, because it gives tenants the opportunity to decide how they wish their estates to be run.
  However, despite the poor take-up of tenants' choice, there is clear evidence that the threat that tenants could choose alternative landlords has galvanised some local authorities into improving the quality of service provided to their tenants. That is a welcome development.
  I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will be able to respond positively so as to give hope to homeless people in Kirklees and the chance of greater choice to council house tenants.
  11.54 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Tim Yeo): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Riddick) on
  404
  gaining the opportunity of raising this important issue. My hon. Friend is a robust champion of the interests and rights of tenants in his constituency and of those who would like to become tenants there.
  I fully support the firm stance that the Housing Corporation has taken in this case. It seems to me that Kirklees borough council has acted less than responsibly in its refusal to work either with a reputable housing association, such as Jephson, or with the Housing Corporation itself. My sympathy, like that of my hon. Friend lies with the council's tenants and with those people in Kirklees who are in housing need. Both have suffered as a consequence of the council's actions.
  I was also shocked by the disclosures of my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen (Mrs. Peacock) about the misleading scare stories being put about, and about the threat that housing benefit might not be available to tenants who make a particular choice. I very much look forward to my visit to that part of the world shortly, when I hope to see for myself the housing conditions there.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley has explained, the dispute arose because of a decision by the local authority to withdraw from negotiations for the disposal of land to the Jephson housing association. Why did the council withdraw its support? Simply because Jephson had applied to the Housing Corporation for approved landlord status under the tenants' choice legislation. I understand that the council made no formal objection to Jephson's application at the time. It chose instead to break off negotiations that would have led to the provision of new housing stock by the association. By its action, Kirklees was not only seeking to deprive its own tenants of their legal right to exercise tenants' choice, but was putting an obstacle in the way of the provision by Jephson of some much-needed new housing in the area.
  As the House is aware, tenants' choice gives most public sector tenants the right to change their landlord without moving from their existing homes. Tenants consider tenants' choice for many reasons, but mostly because they are dissatisfied with the service that they receive and want to see it improved—surely a fundamental right of every tenant. The aim of the scheme is first and foremost a better service for tenants. This can certainly be achieved by a change of landlord.
  Just as important, however, as my hon. Friend said, the mere possibility of that change, and therefore the prospect of competition, also has an impact on local authority performance. We know that tenants' choice has spurred many local authorities to look again at the services that they provide for their tenants. It has concentrated their minds wonderfully on reforming housing management and paying more attention to what their customers want. There is evidence, for example, that the spur of competition has been a real boost to tenant consultation and estate-based management. Local authorities are now, at last, keen to know what their tenants think. Attitude surveys, once conducted by 5 per cent. of authorities, have been conducted since 1988 by no fewer than 50 per cent. of them.
  It is an important feature of the tenants' choice scheme that tenants should be able to transfer to a landlord of their choosing. Some tenants wish to explore setting up their own landlord organisation, but housing associations also are often considered. Their experience and expertise in the provision of social housing make them an obvious choice. Of the 23 landlords approved for tenants' choice so

  405
  far, 19 are registered housing associations, and we are encouraging more to participate by making grants available to help them take forward the costly transfer proceedings.
  Many associations, however, are discouraged from becoming involved in tenants' choice because of the hostile attitude of local authorities such as Kirklees. Some authorities have threatened withdrawal of co-operation from housing associations which become involved in tenants' choice, but none except Kirklees has actually done so. My Department and the Housing Corporation take a very serious view of the action of Kirklees.
  It is important for housing associations to have close working relationships with local authorities, but it is not acceptable for a local authority to seek to undermine the independence of the association and prevent tenants from exercising their statutory rights under tenants' choice. Why did Kirklees seek to do exactly that? I can only assume that Kirklees sought to oppose tenants' choice generally, and Jephson in particular, because it was afraid of the competition.
  In tenants' choice, all potential new landlords must apply to the Housing Corporation for approval, as Jephson did, before any transfer application can be made. The corporation lays down stringent criteria concerning financial viability, experience of housing management and commitment to the provision of housing for those on low incomes. Potential landlords can apply for specific approval, relating to particular property or estates, or for general approval.
  Jephson applied for general approval to enable it to be ready to pursue a tenants' choice transfer should tenants in the area wish it to do so. Jephson assured the council that it would not approach tenants, but would respond only to tenants who approached it and agreed not to proceed with a transfer in the face of reasonable opposition from the local authority nor to proceed unless a majority of tenants voting, voted in favour. That seems more reasonable. However, without any consultation with the Housing Corporation, Kirklees decided to deny support to the Jephson housing association, withdrawing from site sales that were then at an advanced stage and refusing to supply sites to the association in future.
  The Housing Corporation asked the council to reconsider its action, but, I am sorry to say, to no avail. As a result, not only has the council refused to have dealings with the Jephson housing association, but it has effectively broken off relations with the Housing Corporation. Despite repeated attempts by the corporation's regional office to persuade the council to reconsider, there has been no formal council response to the corporation's requests since August 1989, when the corporation's regional director addressed the council's housing committee on the Jephson issue. A result of that, and of the poor performance of the council's programmes, is that Kirklees has received a lower allocation for Housing Association schemes funded by the corporation than might otherwise have been expected.
  Although the Government are involved in decisions about the regional allocation of the Housing Corporation's approved development programme, the distribution of resources within the regions is a matter for the corporation's own regional offices. At national level, distribution to the regions is made principally in accordance with the housing needs indicator, or HNI, an objective measurement of need, reviewed each year by the
  406
  Government, the Housing Corporation and the National Federation of Housing Associations. For statistical reasons, however, the HNI is less reliable in assessing the incidence of need at a more local level, and considerable reliance is placed on the judgment and local knowledge of the corporation's regional offices.
  In the north-east region, 50 per cent. of the resources are distributed according to the HNI scores of local authority areas, and 50 per cent. at the discretion of the regional offices. This mirrors the Government's own practice in distributing housing resources to local authorities, using the generalised needs index.
  In order to improve the management of its capital programme, the north-east region, like the corporation's other regions, has been introducing a system of allocating resources to housing associations on the basis of three-year programmes for each local authority area. These are drawn up in discussion with housing associations and local authorities. The region is particularly keen to co-ordinate the use of its own resources with those of local authorities and others in order to maximise the impact of its programmes. Kirklees's refusal to have any contact with the corporation has meant that the corporation has been unable to prepare a three-year strategy for the area, in the way that it has been able to do with the other four local authorities in West Yorkshire. As a consequence, the corporation's allocation for housing association schemes in Kirklees this year, a total of £8·126 million for rented housing, is substantially below what the area might otherwise have received.
  Regrettably, this is not a new occurrence. For some years, allocations to the Kirklees district have been lower than the corporation would have liked, reflecting a poor performance by the local authority in promoting and facilitating housing association schemes in its area. What is particularly unfortunate about the dispute that erupted in 1989 is that, in the preceding two years, the corporation had been working closely with officers of the council to improve the programme of activity by housing associations in the area. While other authorities had a clear view and strategy, it was not always apparent what Kirklees wanted housing associations to do in its area. This situation had begun to improve, even though there continued to be problems in getting schemes off the ground.
  The reduced allocation does not mean that the corporation has turned a blind eye to the evidence of housing need in Kirklees. I should like to quote from the letter which the corporation's regional director wrote to the chief executive of Kirklees on 22 April, announcing this year's allocation. It says:
  "The Housing Corporation is fully aware that the housing needs in Kirklees are some of the most severe in the region. We are still very anxious to see that our investment goes some way to alleviating the housing need and environmental problems of the district. The fact that we are unable to give a full allocation to the Authority is a source of great concern to us, as it must be to you. We would be very unhappy for this situation to continue for a further full year."
  The director went on to stress the importance of re-opening the dialogue between the corporation and the officers and members of Kirklees. I believe that that letter makes it clear, as my hon. Friend said, that responsibility for the break down in dialogue lies firmly, clearly and solely with Kirklees council. For its part, the Housing Corporation has demonstrated its keenness to co-operate.

  407
  I urge Kirklees borough council to lift its ban on the Jephson housing association and to resume relations with the Housing Corporation. The corporation is now the main provider of new subsidised housing. In his autumn statement, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that its funding would be increased from £1·1 billion in 1990–91 to over £2 billion in 1993–94; in the current year it stands at £1·6 billion. Over the next three years, housing associations are expected to complete around 100,000 corporation-funded dwellings, and from next year onwards the corporation will be approving new projects at the rate of around 45,000 units a year.
  Close liaison with the Housing Corporation is essential, if local authorities are to be able to fulfil their new enabling role. In the past, too many authorities have been content to remain the monopoly providers of low-cost housing for rent. Like most monopolies, that has worked against the interests of the customer. Too many authorities have in the past shown themselves to be insensitive to the needs of their tenants and inefficient in the management of their stock. The enabling role is more difficult and more challenging. Authorities must be thoroughly informed of the needs in their area, perhaps more so than in the past. They must maintain a close working relationship with other providers, including the Housing Corporation, housing associations and private developers. If they fulfil their role properly, the result will be more choice, more variety and a more efficient service to people in housing need.
  It is not enough merely to demonstrate need. Local authorities must show themselves capable of co-operating with other agencies to find the best means of meeting that need. Otherwise, we should simply waste resources that could be put to better use elsewhere. We must not lose sight of the ultimate aim, which is to help those in housing need and improve the service already provided to those living in subsidised housing.
  I urge the members of Kirklees council to consider the effects that their attitude is having not only on the council's tenants, but on those who would benefit from an agreed strategy for the provision of new housing association stock in the area. They should lift their ban on the Jephson housing association and reopen discussions with the Housing Corporation. No one is benefiting from the present state of affairs. As my hon. Friend has said clearly, many people are losing directly as a result of the obstinate attitude of the Kirklees borough council. A great deal could be cone if the council were more co-operative.
  408
  Finally, let me say how pleased I am to hear my hon. Friend speak so positively about the tenants' choice scheme. It is true that transfers under the scheme have been slow to make progress, and I share my hon. Friend's disappointment about that. The risk of antagonising local authorities, as the Kirklees case illustrates, is undoubtedly one of the factors making some housing associations wary of participating in the scheme. The procedures involved are long and complex, as they have to be to deal effectively with a transfer contested by a hostile local authority.
  The time taken to achieve progress is, however, in some ways understandable. From the tenants' points of view, a decision to change to a new landlord is one not to be taken lightly, and tenants rightly need time to consider all the issues involved. The terms and conditions of their tenancies on transfer, for example, which can be broadly comparable with their existing secure tenancies, need to be carefully examined. But some 70 or so tenant groups up and down the country are talking to the Housing Corporation about the scheme, and some are now making good progress towards transfer. Four of them have reached formal application stage and I am hoping to see some transfers achieved in the reasonably near future.
  In the meantime, as my hon. Friend has suggested, we have been considering ways of speeding up progress and encouraging greater participation. We have agreed with the Housing Corporation that grants should be available to registered housing associations to help with the costs of the transfer process, and that resources generally should be targeted on schemes that have real prospects of success. The Housing Corporation is, of course, continuing its work of publicising the scheme to ensure that all tenants are fully aware of the opportunities that tenants' choice offers. As I have said, the vital point about the scheme is that these opportunities exist and bring an element of real competition into local authority provision, which is the best guarantee of good housing management and services that tenants can have.
  The tenants and the people of Colne Valley and of Batley and Spen are well served by the way in which my hon. Friends have raised this important subject and exposed the deplorable attitude of the Labour council in Kirklees. I hope that their arguments and my remarks in reply will be properly noted by tenants, prospective tenants and by all the voters in those constituencies, and that they will see who is championing their interests and who is doing the opposite.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at eleven minutes past Twelve o'clock.