Commons Sitting of 3 July 1990

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS
KILLINGHOLME GENERATING STATIONS (ANCILLARY POWERS) BILL [Lords]
GREAT YARMOUTH PORT AUTHORITY BILL [Lords] (By Order)
Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Thursday 5 July.

Oral Answers to Questions
  HEALTH

    NHS Inflation
    Mr. Leighton: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the latest estimate for national health service inflation for the remainder of the current financial year.
    The Secretary of State for Health (Mr. Kenneth Clarke): The Government do not make estimates of inflation in the national health service before the end of the financial year concerned.
    Mr. Leighton: Is not the underfunding of the national health service for inflation one reason why the service is starved of cash? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware of the financial crisis in the North East Thames region that has led to the postponement of phase 3 of Newham general hospital? It was promised in 1984, but has now been scrapped, and that has led to a sense of betrayal in Newham.
    Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware of the growing and projected population moving into London's docklands and the need for health facilities for them, which have been mentioned by the district health authority and London Docklands development corporation in representations to his Department and the Department of Environment? Nothing has been done. Why? Will he do something about that? Will he review the position of health services in the London borough of Newham?
    Mr. Clarke: The health service is not underfunded. Indeed, the resources available to it have grown so fast that we are now spending almost half as much again, over and above inflation, as the previous Labour Government were spending when they left office. This year, health authorities have at least an additional 4 per cent., ahead of inflation, in their coffers compared with last year.
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    I am aware of the postponement of the hospital in Newham. It is an unfortunate result of the fact that the North East Thames capital programme was racing ahead, partly on the basis of land sales in a booming property market. Those land sales have now slowed and the region has had to review its programme. I agree that it is a serious problem and, together with the regional health authorities, I shall continue to review the capital programmes, and especially that of the North East Thames region.
    Mr. Michael Morris: Will my right hon. and learned Friend clarify a point recently announced in the press—that some districts will not be required to achieve a level playing field by the beginning of the next financial year? If that is the case, why should others suffer?
    Mr. Clarke: No one is suffering, because it has always been a requirement that all parts of the national health service should live within the growing amount of resources available to it. All districts have always been expected to keep within those resources, and they are being urged to do so now.
    I accept that one or two district health authorities may not manage to do that this year, but we will accept that only on the basis that they are well on course to eliminating the deficits as quickly as possible thereafter.
    Ms. Harman: Will the Secretary of State make good the underfunding of Camberwell district health authority? Is he aware that tomorrow night that health authority will consider proposals to cut 106 beds and begin the reduction of its junior medical staff by up to 40 doctors? Does not he think that people in south London and throughout the country will be disgusted by the fact that, with hospitals in south London facing £3 million of cuts this year, he is prepared to spend £3 million of taxpayers' money on propaganda leaflets?
    Mr. Clarke: The system of cash limits in the national health service was introduced by the previous Labour Government. It was a wise move, and I am sure that no future Government will remove cash limits from the national health service.
    The cash limits for Camberwell or, indeed, anywhere else vastly exceed the levels expected when Labour was last in power. It remains a fact that all parts of the national health service are expected to deliver their services within the growing resources allocated to them. Sometimes they can cut beds and facilities and switch the money saved to more important parts of the service or use it to maintain the number of patient treatments at reduced cost. That is part of managing the health service and Camberwell, like every other district, sometimes has to face difficult decisions about how best to maintain high-quality services within the resources available.
    Mr. Speaker: We now come to question No. 2.
    Mr. Kenneth Clarke: I will, with permission, Mr. Speaker, answer questions Nos. 2, 3, 6, 7, 10 and 15 together at 3.30 pm.

    Hospital Doctors (Pay)
    Mr. Irvine: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what has been the percentage change in the pay of hospital doctors in the national health service since 1979.
    The Minister for Health (Mrs. Virginia Bottomley): Since 1979, the pay of hospital doctors has increased in real terms by 33 per cent.
    Mr. Irvine: Does my hon. Friend agree that that encouraging answer provides clear evidence of the Government's commitment to the national health service? What is more, does not it provide clear evidence of their readiness and ability to back their commitment with hard cash?—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If she has them, will my hon. Friend give the comparative figures for the period 1974 to 1979, when Labour was in office?
    Mrs. Bottomley: By chance, I am able to give that information for the period between 1974 and 1979—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order. In fairness to everyone, the Minister should answer one question.
    Mrs. Bottomley: I shall answer only one question, and provide the information that my hon. Friend wants. Between 1974 and 1979, the pay of hospital doctors fell by 6.4 per cent., which contrasts with a 33 per cent. increase over the years that the present Government have been in power. That is a strong indication of our belief in the professionals who work in the health service as well as of our commitment to the patients whom we are all there to serve.
    Mr. Skinner: Why does not the Minister tell the House about another 33 per cent. increase for last year only? I refer to the increase gained by company chairmen following a 28 per cent. increase the previous year. If it is good enough for company chairmen, bosses, and friends of the Tory party, why cannot hospital doctors, nurses and others who work in the health service receive the same kind of increase?
    Mrs. Bottomley: It is exactly that type of contribution from the hon. Gentleman that makes all those who work in the health service fear the day that Labour ever achieves power. It is precisely that type of political mischief-making that so enormously depresses the 1 million people who work in the health service. The hon. Gentleman mentioned nurses. Their pay has risen by 43 per cent. while the present Government have been in power, which contrasts with a fall of 21 per cent. when a Labour Government were responsible for the service.

    Speech Therapists
    Mr. Squire: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what target he has set for the level of provision for speech therapists per 100,000 population.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Mr. Stephen Dorrell): We have not set any national targets. It is for individual health authorities to assess the numbers of speech therapists they require.
    Mr. Squire: Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a national shortage of speech therapists, and that in the North East Thames region the shortfall is estimated at 35 per cent? The figure for my district is similar. Will my hon. Friend give his full commitment to increasing the supply of qualified speech therapists and to reducing the number of children who sometimes have to wait more than one year for an initial assessment?
    Mr. Dorrell: We recognise the need to increase the number of speech therapists in the future. Perhaps the best earnest of our intention to do that is the 80 per cent. increase in the number of speech therapists in post since 1979. An important way of improving the flow of people into the profession is to ensure that pay and conditions are made properly flexible. That issue will be addressed as part of the review promised for this autumn.
    Mr. Dalyell: What does the Minister mean by his remark that pay and conditions should be made properly flexible?
    Mr. Dorrell: It means ensuring that the pay and conditions offered secure an adequate flow of people into the profession.
    Dame Jill Knight: Will my hon. Friend take this opportunity to pay tribute to the work of speech therapists, who do an exceptionally good job, often in difficult circumstances, for people who desperately need help?
    Mr. Dorrell: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Speech therapy offers an important release for people who would be unable to get as much out of life as they can with the help of a properly qualified speech therapist. As my hon. Friend will know, the Education Act 1981 was instrumental in identifying the major opportunities for improvement in individual circumstances that is offered by speech therapists.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: Is the Minister aware just how seriously the current shortage of speech therapists is being felt by disabled children and their parents? In particular, is he aware that there are schools for such children, many with severe speech impairments, that now have no speech therapy at all and that this will involve lifelong consequences for the children affected? What action will he take to help them?
    Mr. Dorrell: I have already said that I recognise the need for further improvement in the number of speech therapists. I should have hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would welcome the increase of 80 per cent. in the total number of speech therapists in post since he left office as Minister for the Disabled.

    Doctors' Surgeries (Rents)
    Mr. French: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations he has received about the operation of the cost rent scheme for doctors' surgeries.
    Mrs. Virginia Bottomley: We have received one formal representation about the operation of the cost rent scheme.
    Mr. French: Will my hon. Friend issue guidelines to family practitioner committees to avoid the difficulty under the cost rent scheme when permission for a new doctor's surgery is first given and later withdrawn?
    Mrs. Bottomley: My hon. Friend has a constituency case on which he has made diligent and persistent representations. I assure him that in his FPC area 63 schemes out of 86 practices have been approved. A letter was sent to FPCs six months before the new system started, and in the current statement of fees and

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    allowances clear guidance is again given. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will respond to my hon. Friend on his constituency case in the near future.

    Mental Handicap Services
    Mrs. Wise: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he intends to introduce a specific grant earmarked for mental handicap services.
    Mr. Dorrell: No, Sir. Local authorities already accord these services a high priority.
    Mrs. Wise: Does the Minister understand the surprise that will be felt in the House on hearing that statement? One of the great fears of parents of mentally handicapped offspring is that when they die their children will have nowhere to go. Is he aware that there is wild fluctuation in the priority accorded to mental handicap services by different authorities? What is he doing to stop his right hon. Friends from exerting unreasonable pressure for cuts in local government spending which will certainly be felt in mental handicap services?
    Mr. Dorrell: It is a funny way to cut services for the mentally handicapped. Since 1979 places in local authority homes and hostels for the mentally handicapped have increased by 57 per cent., places in adult training centres and day centres have increased by 30 per cent., and the number of local authority staff employed in residential homes and hostels has increased by 109 per cent. The facts simply do not accord with the hon. Lady's prejudices.
    Mr. Favell: Life in the community for the mentally handicapped is one of the most important but least applauded reforms made by the Government. When I meet mentally handicapped people who have moved into the community I ask whether they would prefer to go back where they came from. I have never yet found one who would prefer to be back in hospital or in a home rather than in the community. It is a wonderful reform and it is about time the Opposition recognised it.
    Mr. Dorrell: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He speaks with some authority. I happen to know that he is the president of Stockport Mencap. The line that he takes is supported by patients and the professionals who look after the patients and it should be supported by the House.
    Mr. Tom Clarke: Is the Minister aware of Mencap's concern about the absence of services for mentally handicapped adults? Does he accept that his figures confirm that there is a shortfall of 22,000 places—25 per cent.—in adult training centres? How did he respond to Sir Brian Rix's letter to Members of Parliament which said that if that shortfall continues there will be a lottery leading to empty hours, empty days and empty years for some of society's most vulnerable people?
    Mr. Dorrell: What the facts confirm, to pick up the hon. Gentleman's phrase, is that there has been a 69 per cent. increase in real expenditure on facilities for the mentally handicapped in the community since 1979. That hardly makes out the case for additional protection for expenditure by local authorities on the mentally handicapped.
    Mr. John Marshall: Will my hon. Friend confirm that specific grants would go against all the traditions of local
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    government finance? Does he suspect that the Opposition's enthusiasm for such grants illustrates their lack of confidence in Labour-controlled councils' spending priorities?
    Mr. Dorrell: It also squares ill with the repeated allegations of the Opposition that the Conservative party wants to centralise power that properly belongs to local government. It is a proper exercise of local discretion.

    Community Care
    Mr. Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations have been received from local authorities regarding the costs of implementing the Government's proposals on community care.
    Mrs. Virginia Bottomley: We are having discussions with local authority associations in the usual way. The local authorities have produced an estimate of those costs which they believe will be necessary in the implementation of care in the community.
    Mr. Flynn: Does the Minister agree that the Government appear to be having extreme difficulty understanding the argument? It is not a question of centralising power; it is one of a shortfall in finances. Does the Minister agree that by 1994 social services depts will be facing a shortfall of £500 million? The projections are that the fall in Government funding and increasing costs will mean that the social services departments will have the greatest difficulty implementing the Children Act 1989 and care in the community. What do the Government propose to do about it?
    Mrs. Bottomley: The hon. Gentleman is right that local authority social services departments are already implementing the Children Act as well as carrying forward plans for care in the community. Social services departments have seen an increase in their spending of about 37 per cent. over the past 10 years. Of course, they will have to seek good value for money and meet the most important priorities in carrying forward their plans. We have always made it clear that adequate resources will be made available for implementing care in the community.
    Mr. Nicholas Winterton: How can my hon. Friend assure the House that there will be adequate funds for community care after April 1991, bearing in mind the fact that it is almost inevitable—I have it from the highest level of government—that there will be additional capping next year? How can my hon. Friend and my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State guarantee the House that the most vulnerable groups of people—the mentally handicapped, the mentally ill, the elderly and the disabled—will get the sums of money that are allocated to them under the present system when capping will take a major part of next year's local government financial allocation?
    Mrs. Bottomley: There were those who believed that local authorities should not be entrusted with the important task of care in the community. I am not one of those people. Had the health service undertaken that responsibility, it would have become a directly managed service. Local authority responsibility involves local accountability. Where a particular need has to be addressed, a limited specific grant is appropriate, and for that reason last week my right hon. and learned Friend the

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    Secretary of State introduced the popular ring-fenced grant for drug and alcohol-related difficulties. We have made it clear throughout that adequate resources will be made available for the implementation of care in the community.
    Mr. Kennedy: Does not the Minister appreciate that in addition to the problems faced by local authorities, as outlined by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton), the health authorities are offloading people into the community far more rapidly than was ever envisaged when care in the community gained all-party support? They are forced by the squeeze on their budgets to release property on to the open market or to release patients back into the community without adequate back-up care. When will the Minister make sure that one arm of government is working in conjunction and harmony with other arms of government so that people do not fall through the net? That is precisely what is happening at the moment.
    Mrs. Bottomley: I do not underestimate the difficulty of implementing care in the community. It will take 10 years to achieve the care for the frail and vulnerable that many of us hope to see. One such difficulty is not the narrow question of resources that my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) mentioned. The key is persuading the different groups to collaborate and to plan together to ensure that those who require the help receive it. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State spoke of the increase in resources to the health service. I have made it clear that there has been a substantial increase in funding to local authority social services departments, quite apart from the vast resources that are given through social security. The key is to make those substantial resources work effectively in the best interests of the frail and vulnerable.
    Mr. Wilshire: When my hon. Friend responds to representations from local authorities, will she resist the pressures to support ring fencing of budgets? Does she agree that hon. Members who support wholesale ring fencing of local government budgets are in favour of destroying local government as we know it?
    Mrs. Bottomley: I entirely endorse my hon. Friend's point. Ring fencing of substantial sums of money undermines local accountability. Those who believe in local government should welcome local accountability. Plans will have to be made for community care. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State will have powers of direction and there will be appropriate safeguards.
    Mr. Robin Cook: What advice on the cost of community care did the Minister and her colleagues give the Secretary of State for the Environment before he capped 19 social services authorities? Is she aware that in the past month, as a result of that capping, North Tyneside has had to cut its social services budget by a tenth, Derbyshire by £2.5 million, and Fulham by £1.5 million and that Barnsley is having to shut old folks' homes and introduce charges for home helps of £5 a week? Is not she concerned about the effect of those sharp cuts and savage rises on elderly and disabled people in our community? What is the point of her lecturing local authorities to
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    provide more community care when her colleagues in the Government penalise the local authorities that provide the most?
    Mrs. Bottomley: The hon. Gentleman constantly identifies with the producer interest rather than with those who must pay the community charge. I am well aware that elderly and disabled people and others must pay the community charge. They welcome the fact that they have been protected from the excessive spending of their local authorities by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. It is right for local authorities to make proper plans, but that does not involve spending £1 million on a publicity department for Derbyshire county council.

    Junior Doctors
    Mr. Lambie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he next intends to meet representatives of national health service junior doctors to discuss their terms and conditions of service.
    Mr. James Lamond: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he next intends to meet representatives of national health service junior doctors to discuss their terms and conditions of service.
    Mrs. Virginia Bottomley: I shall next meet the representatives formally later this summer to discuss the first report of the working group that we have set up with the key parties involved to discuss the problem of junior hospital doctors' hours.
    Mr. Lambie: I am disappointed by that reply. I should have thought that the Minister would seek an immediate meeting with the junior doctors. Is she aware that the British Medical Association is carrying out a survey of junior hospital doctors on industrial action over hours of work? The junior doctors want only a reduction in their hours of work to a maximum of 72 hours a week instead of the 92 hours that they are working at present, with no more than 36 hours of continuous work. In the best interests of patients and the national health service, will the Minister grant those fair demands?
    Mrs. Bottomley: I have had a series of formal and informal meetings with junior doctors, and I hope shortly to meet the new chairman of the hospital junior staff committee. For the first time, we have called together all the key players who affect junior hospital doctors' hours—the royal colleges, consultants, junior hospital doctors and management. We are determined to have further action and will take all possible steps to achieve it, but it is very much for the profession to demonstrate commitment and to make the necessary changes with us to ensure that we put an end to unreasonably long hours for junior hospital doctors.
    Mr. Lamond: Is not the Minister's answer a little unconvincing when we recall that her Department has found time wholly to reorganise the health service, to disrupt the relationship between the general practitioner and his patients and to pull the rug from under the national health service hospitals, while this simple problem, which has been known about for years, has still

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    to be tackled? Junior doctors, who are an essential link in the health service, are expected to work, on average, more than 90 hours a week.
    Mrs. Bottomley: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is not entirely correct in his facts. The junior doctors worked more than 90 hours a week—91 hours a week—when the hon. Gentleman's party was in power. However, under this Government, their working hours are down to 83 hours a week, with about 58 hours when they are actually working. It is a complex issue because there is a difference between being on call and working. We are determined to see further progress and I am pleased to be able to inform the hon. Gentleman that, by the summer, only around one in eight junior hospital doctors will be working more than one in three onerous rotas. That is substantial progress over two years and we are determined, with those directly involved, to see further progress.
    Mr. Conway: Will my hon. Friend continue to emphasise the difference between being on duty and being on call? Does she accept that, before any radical change is made, all junior doctors—not necessarily just their representatives—should be consulted, because any shortening of the number of hours would have implications for the length of time that doctors must serve before registration?
    Mrs. Bottomley: My hon. Friend is exactly right. There is a large distinction between being on call and working, which is why legislation is an irrelevance in the context. My hon. Friend also identifies another important point, which is the role of the royal colleges in approving the training places. We are at an opportune moment when, for the first time, the royal colleges, the consultants themselves—and there are, of course, 21 per cent. more consultants than there were 10 years ago—and the juniors are prepared to work with the NHS management to ensure that our junior hospital doctors can be alert as well as awake when on duty.
    Mr. Forman: I welcome the obvious progress toward shorter hours for junior hospital doctors, but is my hon. Friend aware that many of us share a deep concern about the problem, especially when we read stories of such doctors falling asleep on duty? Where does the real difficulty lie? Can my hon. Friend tell the House about the obstacles?
    Mrs. Bottomley: I share my hon. Friend's deep concern. He is addressing the point about continuous hours of duty. There is a difference between the cumulative hours worked in a week and having long, continuous hours on duty. In many cases, the juniors themselves prefer to have continuous hours on duty so that they can have long weekends off duty. It is for them to sort out with the consultants in their particular locations the best way of organising the work rotas. In many cases, a move towards a team approach rather than an individual firm approach makes a difference. In other cases, other members of the health care profession, such as nurses, can substitute for doctors. It is a complex and subtle matter on which all parties are determined to make progress. Progress is in the interests not only of the junior hospital doctors, but of the patients, who are entitled to be treated in hospital by doctors who have had a good night's sleep.
    Mr. Galbraith: Does the Minister agree that any progress made so far has been modest and slow and that the average hours worked by junior hospital doctors are still 87 a week? Any improvements have been achieved simply by shifting work from one group of overworked junior doctors to another group of overworked junior doctors. Is not the solution, as the Minister in part suggested, to look at ways of shifting work, such as giving responsibility for intravenous injections and phlebotomies to nurses and, most of all, to increase manpower, especially consultant manpower, so that they can take over some of the duties?
    Mrs. Bottomley: As I was able to inform the House a moment ago, the number of consultants has increased by 21 per cent. It is important that some of the new consultants should be prepared to cover. If the new consultants refuse to cover for the juniors, the difficulty of the juniors' hours will persist. The working practices of juniors, consultants and management alike are involved. But there has been much more substantial progress than the hon. Gentleman suggests. The number of junior doctors working such hours has fallen from one in four to one in eight over two years, and regions that have shown real determination have cut by a half the number working onerous rotas. I would mention in particular South West Thames regional health authority, Northern regional health authority and South Western regional health authority.
    Sir Robert McCrindle: Like the hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith), I have recently been on the receiving end of the valuable services of junior hospital doctors. Will my hon. Friend take on board the suggestion that one way of relieving to some extent the burden to which junior hospital doctors are subjected would be to try to give them some clerical and secretarial assistance? In my recent experience, junior hospital doctors spend a great deal of their time engaging in such activities, which, arguably, could be dealt with by somebody else.
    Mrs. Bottomley: The discussion will soon be taken up by the working party that I have established, on precisely this subject. As my hon. Friend said, clerical skills may well play an important part. The work requirements of the consultants are important and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Mr. Conway) said, the training requirements of the royal colleges are also involved. In many cases, a shift system could be introduced and in others juniors could be used to cover for other specialties in which they have had appropriate experience. In addition, in certain cases units can be amalgamated so that the junior can cover. What is clear is that all those involved are determined to take the necessary constructive action to bring an end to what I regard as an unacceptable problem.

    Speech Therapy
    Mr. Alton: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many patients have requested speech therapy treatment from Liverpool area health authority but remain without care.
    Mr. Dorrell: I understand that on 20 March there were 1,300 people receiving speech therapy in Liverpool district and a further 1,775 people registered as requiring the service.
    Mr. Alton: Is the Minister aware that of the nearly 2,000 people in Liverpool requiring speech therapy but currently denied it, 800 are children with special needs—partially hearing or disabled children? There are hospitals completely without speech therapy cover and there is no speech therapist to deal with the special needs of the deaf. Does the Minister agree with the view of the local area health authority chairman that the profession needs to be restructured and that improved resources and regrading are required? Does he further agree that the starting salary of £8,000 for a graduate is one reason why it is impossible to retain speech therapists within the service?
    Mr. Dorrell: I agree that regrading would be desirable and we are committed to doing that in the autumn. I also agree with the conclusions of the Davies and Enderby study that, although pay and conditions are part of the problem, we must also look at patterns of work within the speech therapy profession to ensure that we make the best possible use of the skilled manpower available.
    Mr. Wareing: Does not the Minister realise that the Government are regarding the problem with great complacency? A child of four in my constituency has been told that when his fifth birthday comes he will be able to obtain the speech therapy treatment that he requires only by going to a school in Warrington or Southport. Is not that disgraceful, and is not it about time that the Government gave real priority to the management of the speech therapy service so that conditions of service are such that speech therapists are retained in the service rather than being forced into other occupations?
    Mr. Dorrell: I challenge the hon. Gentleman to find any part of the health service in which there was an increase of 120 per cent. in real expenditure during the Labour Government's four years in power. We have increased real expenditure on speech therapists by 120 per cent. and we have increased the number of therapists in post by 80 per cent. That is not complacency.
    Mr. Rowe: Does my hon. Friend accept that, in places such as Liverpool, where the problem is acute, as it is in my constituency, there will always be a temptation for employers to look for people calling themselves speech therapists—which anyone can do—without guaranteeing the quality that qualification as a speech therapist ensures? Will he give the assurance that, in his tremendous efforts to solve those difficulties, he will not look for a cut in the quality of the service that is offered?
    Mr. Dorrell: My hon. Friend is right to the extent that we must ensure that the people who offer those services are properly qualified to give them. Equally, we must not allow ourselves to regard the services as a mediaeval mystery. We must ensure that speech therapists are adequately qualified but not overqualified.

    Eye Tests
    Ms. Short: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what further evidence has been made available to his Department regarding the effects of the introduction of charges on the numbers of eyesight checks undertaken.
    Mr. Rees: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what further evidence has been made available to his Department regarding the effects of the introduction of charges on the numbers of eyesight checks undertaken.
    Mr. Kenneth Clarke: We have received no new independent evidence on sight test demand since the publication of the independent national opinion poll report last month, which showed that the number of sight tests being undertaken is fully in line with past trends.
    Ms. Short: I am shocked that the Secretary of State did not see the Which? report—he is not doing his job properly if he did not. That report showed that there has been a serious drop of 2.5 million in the number of eye tests. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman will know, one in 20 people are referred for serious sight and other health problems, which means that about 125,000 seriously ill people are being missed. Will he now admit that that is a disastrous move for people's health, apologise for misleading the House and the country, and scrap the eye test charge, because people's health is too valuable for them to miss eye tests?
    Mr. Clarke: There has been no reduction in the number of eye tests as a result of the introduction of charges. All the evidence—not only our survey of 10,000 people but the MORI survey that was carried out for the Association of Optometrists, and even the telephone ring-round by the Royal National Institute for the Blind—shows that there has been no reduction in the number of eye tests compared with the tend that was established before the charging system was changed in 1987.
    The Consumers Association, in its Which? magazine, has not explained the methodology that produced its rather startling conclusion. Most of the contrary claims are based on leading questions about whether people think that charges might deter them. All sensible surveys show that there has been no evidence of deterrence. The Labour party's only spending promise to spend £90 million to go back to the previous system is based on a mistaken assessment of the facts.

    Community Care
    Mr. Yeo: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent representations he has received regarding the policy of care in the community.
    Mrs. Virginia Bottomley: We receive many representations in correspondence and at regular meetings with organisations concerned with our plans for community care.
    Mr. Yeo: Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Government believe that voluntary organisations have a major role to play in delivering policies on care in the community? Is she aware of the warm welcome that has been given to the policy of giving grants to voluntary organisations to deal with specific problems of drugs and alcohol?
    Mrs. Bottomley: I thank my hon. Friend. I am fully aware of the importance of encouraging voluntary organisations. We want a mixed economy of care for the frail and the vulnerable. I know of my hon. Friend's distinguished service in one such organisation. I can confirm that there has been a wide welcome for the announcement by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State last week that voluntary bodies concerned with drug and alcohol-related difficulties will receive special funding.
    Mr. Ashley: Does the Minister care to deny that every voluntary organisation concerned with disabled people condemns the Government's failure to provide adequate community care for mentally handicapped and mentally ill people? Does she deny also that thousands of those people have been denied adequate help and that the present situation is an absolute scandal?
    Mrs. Bottomley: The right hon. Gentleman's account far from resembles my experience. There has been a substantial improvement in the care of the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped in our community. If we contrast what is available now with what was available several years ago, the situation is striking and most impressive. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that more should be done. That is why I welcome the work that is being carried forward by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State in the specific grant for mentally ill people. We believe that there is a special need for co-operation between health authorities and local authorities and that further work needs to be done.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. David Young. Mr. John Hughes. Mr. Ted Leadbitter. Question 24.
    Mr. Wareing: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. What question are we on?
    Mr. Speaker: I was informed that the hon. Gentleman's question 21 had been withdrawn. If that is not so take question 21 first.
    Mr. Kenneth Clarke: With permission, I shall answer this question together with question 2 at 3.30 pm as it is one of the 32 questions on the Order Paper about self-governing trusts. Like you, Mr. Speaker, I believed that the question was unstarred. Obviously we were wrongly informed that the hon. Gentleman had withdrawn his question.
    Mr. Speaker: Then we go to question 24. Mr. John Hughes.

    Junior Doctors
    Mr. John Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he next intends to meet representatives of national health service junior doctors to discuss their terms and conditions of service.
    Mrs. Virginia Bottomley: As I have made clear, we hope to meet soon the new chairman of the junior hospital doctors staff. We are determined to see further action on junior hospital doctors' hours.
    Mr. Hughes: Has the Minister's knowledge that the mishandling of the ambulance dispute classically demonstrated how an individual, subject to far fewer pressures than the complex pressures and experiences—
    Hon. Members: Reading.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Will the hon. Gentleman please paraphrase his question? [HON. MEMBERS: "Reading".] Order. This takes time out of Question Time.
    Mr. Hughes: Has the Minister's knowledge that the mishandling of the ambulance dispute clearly demonstrated that an individual subject to fewer pressures than the pressures daily experienced by junior doctors will act in an irrational manner? [HON. MEMBERS: "Reading".] Has that equipped her to understand—
    Hon. Members: Reading.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. This takes a lot of time out of Question Time.
    Mr. Hughes: —than the long-winded procedures that she has set up to deal with the junior doctors issue will put patients' health at risk? Will she take immediate steps to meet the doctors and resolve the issue?
    Mrs. Bottomley: I shall reply more formally when I have had a chance to study the hon. Gentleman's question in the Official Report. We are determined to see further action on junior hospital doctors. It is a matter for the professions involved and the royal colleges, but we believe that, for the first time, we have called the relevant parties together. We hope that there will be a constructive and realistic outcome.

  PRIME MINISTER

    Engagements
    Mrs. Mahon: To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 3 July.
    The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, including—
    Hon. Members: Reading.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Members know perfectly well that the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition always have an opportunity to refer to their notes.
    The Prime Minister: This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others—[HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."]—including one with Chief Anyaoku, the new Secretary General of the Commonwealth. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today, including one with the Chinese ambassador. This evening I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty the Queen.
    Mrs. Mahon: Does the Prime Minister agree that there are some terrorists whom her Government deal with? Every year at the United Nations, the British representatives vote for the seating of a Khmer Rouge representative. If the representatives do not vote for that this year, it is a bit late as the genocidal murderers march for a second time on Phnom Penh. How does she sleep at night knowing that she has helped to bring that about?
    The Prime Minister: Nonsense. Who shall have the seat to represent Cambodia is very much a matter for the

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    United Nations. We have hitherto supported the United Nations. In future, we shall reconsider our vote as to who should take that seat for Cambodia.
    Mr. Jopling: If the Prime Minister can find time today to give further thought to future policies, will she ask herself why it should be necessary for the Forestry Commission to own £1 billion of real estate in land and growing timber? Is not it a good candidate for privatisation?
    The Prime Minister: I am well aware that my right hon. Friend has consistently taken that view, and I think that there is something in what he says, but we must consider it in more detail for future policy.
    Mr. Kinnock: Does not the Prime Minister think that it would be only fair if the booklet about the changes being imposed on the national health service were paid for out of Tory party funds?
    The Prime Minister: No. I think that when families have to spend £39 a week to maintain the national health service, they are entitled to a booklet on the national health service reforms, the people involved in it and how it works. It is extremely good value for money.
    Mr. Kinnock: Families support the national health service. However, as for the proposals, the doctors do not support them, the nurses do not support them and, most importantly, the patients do not support them. Whenever they are put to the vote, they get turned down by huge majorities. The only organisation that supports the proposals and propaganda is the Conservative party. Let it pay for the booklet.
    The Prime Minister: If the doctors do not support the proposals, it is astonishing that there are so many applications for both self-governing hospitals and practice budgets. I quite understand—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order.
    The Prime Minister: I quite understand what the right hon. Gentleman is saying—any choice, whether on the part of the professionals who run the health service or the patient, is anathema to socialism.
    Mr. Kinnock: If the Prime Minister is so confident about opting out and the reception that it will receive, will she give me an undertaking now that when it is proposed that a hospital should opt out, but the doctors, nurses and patients are against it, the Government will not accept the proposal for opting out?
    The Prime Minister: Once again, the right hon. Gentleman does not understand—
    Hon. Members: Straight answer.
    Mr. Speaker: Order.
    The Prime Minister: No hospital is opting out of the health service, as the right hon. Gentleman knows. He deliberately tries to give the opposite impression. Self-governing hospitals are part of the national health service; the real reason why the Labour party does not want them is that they will be extremely popular due to the better service that they will give to patients and will offer choice, which is anathema to the Labour party.
    Mr. Lord: Amidst the excitement of World Cup football—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order.
    Mr. Lord: Amidst the excitement of World Cup football and Wimbledon, does the Prime Minister think that it is right to remind ourselves of the great difference between sportsmanship and gamesmanship? Does she further think it right to remind all those involved with sport, particularly people in the public eye—players, officials, commentators and correspondents—of the enormous responsibility that they have to maintain the standards of the game and to set an example, particularly to young people interested in sport?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend. We all wish our team well and success tomorrow evening. We hope that it and all our spectators will act in accordance with the best standards in Britain.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I ask the House to settle down.
    Mr. Ashdown: In view of the Prime Minister's well-known admiration for the views of Dr. Pöhl, the president of the Bundesbank, did she note that in his speech on the exchange rate mechanism yesterday, he clearly stated that, in his opinion, the Prime Minister's seven-year-old statement that Britain should join when the time was right now meant that Britain should join soon? Is she still unable to agree with him?
    The Prime Minister: I read every word of Dr. Karl Otto Pöhl's speech. I saw him for more than half an hour yesterday morning and discussed those matters with him. I should not disagree that we are bound to join the exchange rate mechanism. We have accepted that, and we shall join—as Karl Otto Pöhl said—when the time is right. I do not know quite what he meant by "soon", but I could agree or disagree with that according to what it means.
    Mr. Burt: Is not it the case that in the past few years this country has given assistance to black South African students to enable them to come to this country, to education projects in the townships and to humanitarian projects in South Africa to support the rural black community? At the time of the visit of Mr. Nelson Mandela, is not it right that due credit should be paid to this country for its work in furthering reform and progress in South Africa?
    The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend. We have made a point of giving far more help to black South Africans in education and housing. We made it clear that we are for the end of apartheid—which is totally immoral and which must end—and that we were going to do something for black South Africans. All the kinds of assistance that my hon. Friend has enumerated were gladly given, and have already been a great help to them. That help will be of even greater assistance when they form the majority Government in South Africa.
    Mr. McFall: To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 3 July.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. McFall: The Prime Minister must be aware of the grave difficulties of pushing the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Bill through the House, not least with her tiny band of Scottish Back Benchers who have revolted. Will she pledge not to guillotine the Bill and curtail debate on such an important measure, or will she back her totally isolated Secretary of State for Scotland at the perilously high price of ignoring her Scottish Back Benchers?
    The Prime Minister: The Bill to which the hon. Gentleman refers is part of the Government's legislative programme; it came from the other place, and was given an unopposed Second Reading in the House of Commons. It is a significant reform, especially the parts that deal with the legal profession. It is important that it should receive proper consideration in Committee, and in due course become law.
    Mr. Budgen: Will my right hon. Friend ask her Cabinet colleagues to have a word with the president of the Bundesbank today, so that he can explain to them that the only choice is between joining the exchange rate mechanism—and moving inexorably towards a common currency and a common monetary authority—and not going in at all? He would also explain that there is no clever compromise, and that if we attempt one it will lead to greater instability in European currencies and the justified anger of our European allies.
    The Prime Minister: We are pledged to join the exchange rate mechanism when the Madrid conditions are fulfilled, and we shall join it when they have been fulfilled. It is clear that some of our colleagues in the European Community wish to go further than the exchange rate mechanism. The proposals outlined in Delors stages 2 and 3 were debated in the House, and my understanding is that a move towards a single currency—with a board of bank governors not democratically accountable to anyone—was totally rejected. That being so, we wish to find a way forward with which other countries in the European Community—as well as Britain—could agree, and which would satisfy the demand for some kind of common currency throughout the Community.
    We have put our proposals before the Community, and I am sure that they will be fully debated. We do not wish to adopt a single currency with a board of central bank governors who are not democratically accountable. We are prepared to have a common currency, provided that it does not lead to any inflation. That would mean our having a hard ecu.
    Mr. Radice: To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 3 July.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Radice: In view of the new Government figures on increases in high street spending and borrowing, and reports that the Treasury has revised upwards its fourth quarter inflation estimate, is not it clear that the Government's policy of relying entirely on high interest rates is not working?
    The Prime Minister: No. The economy is extremely strong and very dynamic and there are more jobs, higher output and a higher standard of living than ever before. Of course it will take time for a high interest rate to work. That is not the only policy and I am surprised that that has escaped the hon. Gentleman. He knows full well that there is a budget surplus. That, too, is part of the policy.
    Mr. Ashby: My right hon. Friend has often said that for every right there is a corresponding duty. Will she alter the rules so that those claiming benefit should first have to produce a certificate saying that they have registered for the community charge?
    The Prime Minister: That would be a needless extra bit of bureaucracy. We are very pleased that the overwhelming majority of people properly registered for the community charge in spite of Opposition forebodings to the contrary. We believe that the overwhelming majority as citizens will pay it, and we hope that a bigger percentage will pay the charge than used to pay rates.
    Mrs. Fyfe: To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 3 July.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Lady to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mrs. Fyfe: Will the right hon. Lady give a straight answer this time? If doctors, nurses, medical staff and patients are against opting out, will she listen to them?
    The Prime Minister: No hospital is opting out. All are in the health service. If the professionals wish to apply for self-governing status, the application will come to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Health who, after a period of consultation, will make his decision. It is quite clear that the Opposition do not want people to have choice. They are socialists to the backbone.
    Mrs. Peacock: To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 3 July.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mrs. Peacock: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the past 12 months of freedom from union domination and restrictive practices, Britain's docks have moved from strength to strength? Is not this anniversary of the abolition of the dock labour scheme—[HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."]—a suitable moment to reiterate the superiority of free enterprise over socialism and trade monopoly?
    The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It is one year today since the dock labour scheme was abolished. Since then productivity has raced ahead, ships have been loaded and unloaded far faster, we have the lowest strike record in Britain, and the hinterland of all the ports is flourishing. It was a good day when we abolished that scheme and we note that the view of the Opposition was to call that abolition an act of wilful sabotage against the country's economic interests. Wrong again, they were.

NHS Trusts
The following questions stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. David Nicholson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on progress towards setting up national health service hospital trusts.
Mr. Martin M. Brandon-Bravo: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what will be the effect on services to patients in those hospitals which choose to become national health service hospital trusts.
Mr. Cecil Franks: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he expects the first national health service trusts to be in operation.
Mr. Harry Barnes: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many expressions of interest in the formulation of self-governing hospital trusts have so far been received.
Mr. Roger Stott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is his Department's latest information on the total expenditure incurred so far on preparation for self-governing hospital trusts.
Mr. Ronnie Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what evidence of the views of community health councils regarding the formation of self-governing hospital trusts is available to his Department.
Mr. Robert N. Wareing: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he last had discussions with the chairman of the Mersey region health authority; if the opting-out of hospitals on Merseyside was discussed; and if he will make a statement.
3.32 pm
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr. Kenneth Clarke): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall answer these questions together.
On a point of order, I should like to give the House an explanation which Opposition Front Bench Members have requested about the adoption of this procedure. Last night, when I started the final detailed preparation for answering parliamentary questions, I discovered that there were 32 questions on the Order Paper about applications for national health service trust status. Last night there were eight such questions in the first 25. It became quite clear that, if we tried to handle those in the course of ordinary parliamentary questions, first, most hon. Members would not get an adequate reply to their questions—[Interruption.] They are about to get more than adequate replies to any questions that are forthcoming. Secondly, it was also clear that no other subject could sensibly be dealt with during health service questions. For example, we would not have reached the questions on junior doctors' hours and on eye tests which the Opposition regard as important.
I regret that this is an Opposition Supply day because I realise that that has caused some difficulties, but it was obviously for the convenience of the House to handle these questions at this stage.
Mr. Robin Cook: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Secretary of State, in his apology
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to the House, conceded that the device that he has adopted has caused offence. He proposes to answer not one question but seven linked together. That is not for the convenience of the House; it is an abuse of the procedures of the House. It is inevitable that that abuse will take time out of the debates on the motions on education and housing, tabled in the Opposition's name—time that was available to the Secretary of State during health questions. He will not remove that offence by making a statement to the House under the guise of giving an answer to questions on the Order Paper. He knows perfectly well that by using such a device to make a statement he is avoiding the need to give the Opposition advance notice of the text, and he is denying the Opposition the right to respond immediately, which is presumably why he has chosen this method of smuggling in a major statement on a controversial issue. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I invite you to reflect on what additional protection is necessary—
Mr. David Shaw: This is not a genuine point of order.
Mr. Cook: I am addressing my question to Mr. Speaker, if the hon. Gentleman will listen.
What additional protection is necessary to defend the rights of this place against a Government who, despite a majority of more than 100, constantly seek devices to prevent the Opposition from getting a fair hearing in the Chamber?
Several Hon. Members: Further to that point of order—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I shall not take any more points of order at this stage. Of course it is up to the Government how they link the questions. I was aware of the decision, and that was why I suggested that the Government consult through the usual channels as to whether this was an appropriate method to deal with the matter.
Dr. John Cunningham: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am grateful to you for giving me the opportunity to put on record the fact that this procedure is not acceptable to the Opposition, and we made that clear from the outset. It is clear that, before today was allocated as an Opposition Supply day, the questions were on the Order Paper. In any preview of today's business at Question Time, the Government would have foreseen this difficulty—long before it was known that Tuesday would be an Opposition Supply day. This is a squalid device on the part of the Government's business managers to prevent the effective use of time by the Opposition on a Supply day, and no one should be in any doubt about it.
Several Hon. Members: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: I am not taking any more points of order on the matter. We must get on.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: The National Health Service and Community Care Act gives me the power to establish NHS trusts, by order, as self-governing units within the national health service. NHS trusts will not opt out of the national health service, and they will continue to provide treatment free of charge, but they will be given substantial freedom to manage their own affairs. In particular, they will be free to determine the terms and conditions of service of the staff

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they employ, to acquire, own and dispose of assets, to borrow money and to retain surpluses. We intend that trusts should use their powers to improve the quality of the health care which they provide and to respond more effectively to the needs of general practitioners and NHS patients.
We intend that the first NHS trusts should become operational on 1 April 1991, and I have now invited formal applications. Units will be able to apply for trust status at any time, but those units intending to become trusts from 1 April will wish to submit their applications as soon as possible.
One hundred and ninety nine NHS units have expressed interest in NHS trust status. They represent a wide range of units—single hospitals, groups of hospitals and non-hospital facilities. I understand that about 60 to 70 of the units which have expressed interest—
Mr. Frank Haynes: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is not good enough. This is a statement.
Mr. Speaker: Order. May I remind the House that it is not for me to say—
Mr. Haynes: It is for you.
Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Members must reflect, if they are concerned about protecting the Opposition's time, that a statement would take much longer than questions answered together—[Interruption.]
Several Hon. Members: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I will take the points of order provided that hon. Members reflect on the fact that they take time out of the Opposition's Supply day. Mr. Haynes.
Mr. Haynes: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is shameful and you are allowing it to go on. It is time that you put your foot down because the Government are running all over us. They did it last night and you did not do anything about that. They introduced amendments—
Mr. Speaker: Sit down. How on earth can the hon. Gentleman make that charge about last night? I was not in the Chair last night.
Mr. Haynes: But you knew about it.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Will the hon. Gentleman withdraw that dastardly charge against me? I was not even here.
Mr. Haynes: I accept that you were not in the Chair, Mr. Speaker, but I still say that you knew what was going on last night. You always know what is going on in this place, and you know what is going on today, but you have not done a damn thing about it.
Mr. Speaker: I hope that the House will reflect quietly on this. This is an Opposition Supply day. [Interruption.] It is up to the Government to decide whether to make a statement or to answer questions at the end of Question Time. A statement would probably take half an hour and questions taken together after Question Time would take about 15 minutes. The House can decide what it wants to do.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am in the middle of attempting to answer, in effect, 32 parliamentary questions. The answer is therefore undoubtedly lengthy, but all the points that I am covering relate to the questions on the Order Paper. If the Labour party prefers to get excited about procedural matters rather than matters of substance, it is free to do so. If it is worried about wasting its Supply day, it has the simple remedy of not asking any supplementary questions.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We are clearly in difficulty over this, but if it would help the House the Secretary of State can make his answer and I will treat it as a statement. If it will help the House, I will do that.
Mr. Robin Cook: I am obliged for that suggestion, Mr. Speaker. Of course it is implicit in what you have just said that what the House is now hearing is not an answer to parliamentary questions but a statement. The Secretary of State has already been speaking for more than two minutes—
Mr. David Shaw: What is wrong with that?
Mr. Cook: That is a question that the hon. Gentleman must address to his Secretary of State because the Secretary of State is well aware that this is a matter of major interest to the House on which, had he wished to make a lengthy statement, he could have arranged to do so. As you will be aware, Mr. Speaker, the procedure for making statements contains within it certain protections for the rights of the Opposition, one of which is that the Opposition receive advance notice of the text that the Secretary of State is to share with the House. The device that you are proposing, which is to treat the statement as a statement, while recognising the reality of what the Secretary of State is up to, does not contain that protection of the rights of the Opposition.
I therefore submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that since it would appear that you are now persuaded that what we are hearing is not a parliamentary answer but a statement, the appropriate thing to do would be to invite the Secretary of State to take away his statement, to return with it—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I am addressing my remarks to the Chair, not to Conservative Members. I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, but some Conservative Members appear to think that they are the Speaker and so are answering my question.
Would not the appropriate course be to invite the Secretary of State to come back tomorrow with a statement which will protect the Opposition's right to see the text in advance and enable the House to proceed with the important debates in Opposition time on Opposition motions?
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am on my feet.
Clearly the House is in difficulty on this matter. It appears that communications between the usual channels have broken down, which is a serious matter. When I heard about the matter at lunch time, I understood that the usual channels had come to an agreement on it. Those hon. Members whose questions are on the Order Paper today have a right to have their questions answered. If communications between the usual channels have broken down on whether to have a statement or to have

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supplementary questions, we should hear—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because they have a right to put their questions.
We should hear now what the Secretary of State has to say. I will call those hon. Members and then we shall move immediately to the Opposition's Supply day.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I have a very long list of hon. Members who wish to participate in the debate, and it will be difficult for me to call them all.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I hope that it will be helpful.
Mr. Winterton: I am sure that it will be helpful, and I am seeking your advice and guidance, Mr. Speaker.
Many hon. Members who have been in the House for a few years are aware that quite a number of questions on a particular subject can be tabled to a Department on any one day. From what has happened today, are we to understand that if six, seven or eight questions are tabled on one subject to a specific Minister, the Government of the day can adopt the procedure that they have adopted today, which is to make a statement in all but name and therefore deny the Opposition the opportunity of having knowledge of what is to be said?
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Members must allow me to answer. It is in order to pursue such a procedure under our rules, as they stand at the moment, although it is unusual to answer quite so many questions. That is why I suggested that the matter should be agreed through the usual channels, and a resolution reached that would be to the convenience to both sides of the House. I must ask the Secretary of State to continue.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: I will—
Mr. Wareing: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I will take it later. The hon. Gentleman must sit down.
Mr. Clarke: I will accept your ruling, Mr. Speaker, and resume. I gather that we are now in a mixture of answering questions and making a statement. Of course it would have been possible to make a statement, but the effect of that would have been to take more time out of the Opposition's Supply day. It would also have deprived the hon. Members who have tabled questions of a reply to them.
Some 199 NHS units have expressed an interest in NHS trust status. They represent a wide range of units, single hospitals, groups of hospitals and non-hospital facilities. I understand that about 60 or 70 of the units that have expressed an interest in trust status are likely to submit applications in the first wave. The first three applications from Mersey region were handed to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Health yesterday. When applications are submitted, I shall direct regional health authorities to have public consultations on the applications and to report the results to me.
Mr. Martin Flannery: Why should we put up with this sharp practice? It is disgraceful.
Mr. Wareing rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must sit down.
Mr. Clarke: Regional health authorities will decide who should be consulted, taking account of the facilities offered by the proposed trusts and the patients served. However, we made it clear that those consulted should include the health authorities and family health service authorities concerned, staff of the proposed trusts, general practitioners and the local public. I shall decide whether to accept applications on the basis of consideration of the application documents, comments received by regional health authorities in local consultation and any other relevant information. No group will have a veto over my decision, which will be based on my assessment of whether, in the light of all relevant factors, NHS trust status for a particular unit will benefit NHS patients in that locality. We have made it clear that the cost of implementation of the NHS review will not be met from—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. This is absolutely intolerable and more bad behaviour on the part of the hon. Members concerned. They know the situation perfectly well. The Secretary of State must be allowed to finish his statement. [Interruption.] I know that it is not a statement, but has the right hon. and learned Gentleman finished his remarks?
Mr. Clarke: The establishment of NHS trusts will represent a major step in improving the quality of care available to NHS patients, and I welcome the enthusiasm with which groups of managers and clinicians have been working on preparing their applications.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. That was a very long answer.
Mr. Wareing: You allowed it.
Mr. Speaker: Allowed? The hon. Member knows perfectly well that my position has been made clear. The Government have a right under our existing rules to do what they have done. It is for the usual channels to consult on this matter. That they have broken down is very serious, but it is not my responsibility. The hon. Member is a member of the Whips Office, and he should know.
Mr. David Nicholson: I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that comprehensive reply. Does he acknowledge that these reforms must be justified by the assurance of better services to patients? In particular, will he confirm that one of the advantages of the reforms will be that NHS trusts will be free from interference from such people as Chris Wright, known as "the prat in the hat"? He is a former parliamentary Labour candidate and a Labour appointee to Croydon health authority, who is under a life ban from Crystal Palace football club and was one of the ring leaders of the hooliganism in Sardinia last month.
Mr. Speaker: Order. Just because there has been a very long statement, hon. Members must not abuse the House by asking very long questions, because that is just as bad.
Mr. Clarke: If Mr. Wright had succeeded in his aim of being elected as a Labour Member of Parliament, he

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would have felt quite at home in the demonstrations that we have just seen of Labour's approach to matters of consultation on NHS trust status.
Mr. Andrew Faulds: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Clarke: I agree with my hon. Friend that the only basis for judging applications for national health status, self-governing status or any other reforms is whether or not they are likely to lead—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. I must warn the House that the next action I shall take will be to suspend the sitting until right hon. and hon. Members have calmed down. That will take even more time out of the Opposition Supply day. Therefore. I am reluctant to do that.
Mr. Brandon-Bravo: If I am right in believing that the services provided by trust hospitals will be effectively by contract with the district health authority acting on behalf of the national health authority, and if, on advice—for example, from their own medical or surgical faculties—such hospitals want to provide additional services such as heart surgery, as they wanted to do in Nottingham but were denied by the regional health authority, will they have that kind of independence?
Mr. Clarke: Those hospitals, like all other hospitals—
Mr. Faulds: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: I will take points of order afterwards.
Mr. Faulds: On a point of order.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am not taking points of order now, and I will not be bullied by the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds).
Mr. Faulds: This is quite disgraceful.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I order the hon. Member to resume his seat.
Mr. Faulds: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am not having this.
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Harry Barnes.—[Interruption.] Order. I suspend the sitting for 10 minutes until this matter is sorted out. This is an intolerable breakdown of the usual channels. I ask them immediately to get together to sort out this matter.
Grave disorder having arisen in the House, MR. SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 45 (Power of Mr. Speaker to adjourn House or suspend sitting) suspended the sitting for 10 minutes.
Sitting suspended at 3.54 pm.
On resuming—
Mr. Speaker: I understand that the usual channels have now had an opportunity to discuss the matter. The Government have applied to make a statement about it tomorrow. Of course I shall ensure that those hon. Members listed on the Order Paper for linked questions today will be called on that statement. It is now in the best interests of the House that we move on.
Mr. Robin Cook: May I briefly welcome—
Mr. Dick Douglas: On a point of order—
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman may be seeking to make a point of order, but I did not call him.
Mr. Douglas: Why are you always—
Mr. Speaker: I did not call the hon. Gentleman. Please sit down.
Mr. Cook: May I welcome your statement, Mr. Speaker, which provides a sensible way of proceeding this afternoon? This exchange, and the outcome, represent an important defence of the rights of this place.
Mr. Douglas: I trust, Mr. Speaker, that the unfortunate precedent that you tried to establish of making an answer to a question a quasi statement—
Mr. Speaker: I must ask the hon. Gentleman to sit down, please, while I explain to him what happened. It is not for me to grant leave to answer questions at the end of Question Time or even statements; that is entirely for the Government. At lunch time, when I heard about the large number of questions to be answered at the end of Question Time, I immediately sought to discover whether it had been agreed between the usual channels. I was assured, after some negotiations, that it had been arranged. As I understand it, that information was incorrect; but it is nothing to do with me.
Mr. Douglas: During the interchange subsequent to the Secretary of State trying to give an answer to a question, you, Mr. Speaker, with great respect, indicated that you were going to take answers to questions as a quasi statement. I trust that we start de novo and that what you said is expunged from any scintilla of precedent of the House.
Mr. Speaker: I was merely seeking to be helpful to the House. I am not part of the usual channels; perhaps it is a pity that I am not. I was trying to see how it might be possible to get on with the business.
Mr. Faulds: I am most regretful that I had to cross swords so noisily with you, Mr. Speaker, but may I say in defence of you that it is quite clear from what has transpired that you were misled by the Government into thinking that there was an agreement when there was no agreement between the two parties? The proceedings went ahead because of the usual deceitfulness of Ministers.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I was not misled; I was perhaps misinformed.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: It is fair to say that you, Mr. Speaker, and the House were let down by the fact that the usual channels did not function as well as they should have done. That involves all of us; there were distinct misunderstandings on both sides. It was only just before 2.30 pm when I was warned that there was any doubt about this procedure, and I thought that I would resolve it by the first explanation that I gave. Plainly, that was a mistake and we all proceeded on mutual misunderstanding. The usual channels have now worked very well by restoring order and allowing a statement to be made in the usual way tomorrow.
Dr. Cunningham: This place operates by consent and can operate in no other way. When consent and agreement are trampled on by a Government determined to impose their will on the House regardless—[Interruption.]—oh, yes, regardless of whether there is agreement, breakdowns

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occur. I hope that we can now proceed with the business and deal with this important matter in the appropriate way with a statement tomorrow.

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &C.
Ordered,
That the draft Air Navigation (Noise Certification) Order 1990 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c. [Mr. Patnick.]

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &C.

  Former Cabinet Ministers (Interests)
  4.8 pm
  Mr. David Winnick: I beg to move,
  That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prohibit former Cabinet Ministers, within a period of five years after leaving office, from accepting any employment with or payment from a company which was privatised while they were members of the Cabinet, or which had a commercial or contractual relationship with a Department of State for which or in which they had Ministerial responsibility.
  There is considerable unease that Cabinet Ministers can, shortly after leaving office, join companies that were privatised when they were in the Cabinet and, in some cases, when they were the Ministers who carried through the privatisation measures.
  My Bill would exclude former Cabinet Ministers from being involved in such companies for five years and would ensure that former Ministers would not be able, for the same period, to join any company that had a commercial or contractual relationship with the Departments for which they had had ministerial responsibility. That would be a fair way of dealing with the issue and I can see no reason why anyone should think otherwise.
  The right hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbitt) joined the board of British Telecom in November 1987. As Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, he had been responsible for privatising that company three years previously. The right hon. Gentleman then became Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and chairman of the Conservative party. He left the Government in June 1987.
  The right hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker) became a director of British Gas on 2 June this year, having left the Government just a few weeks earlier on 30 April. British Gas was privatised in 1986 when the right hon. Gentleman was Secretary of State for Energy, after which he became Secretary of State of Wales.
  I have written to all these right hon. Gentlemen to say that I would be mentioning their names. The right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler) joined the board of National Freight. He had been Secretary of State for Transport until a year before the privatisation of that company, he had been in the Cabinet when the company was privatised and he left office only this year.
  Lord Young was Secretary of State for Trade and Industry until 24 July last year. As we know, he has become the new chairman of Cable and Wireless. While he was Secretary of State, Lord Young granted Cable and Wireless a personal communication licence, which caused a great deal of controversy at the time. British Telecom, for example, said at the time that the Minister had unduly favoured Cable and Wireless. I cannot, of course, say whether the accusation was right. I want to remind the House of the date of his leaving the Government. Lord Young resigned as Secretary of State for Trade and Industry on 24 July last year. The previous day, The Sunday Times carried an article stating that Lord Young might well choose to go to Cable and Wireless to succeed Lord Sharp as chairman. I cannot say whether Lord Young will now join the board of British Aerospace.
  There are guidelines for ex-civil servants. Although I believe that those guidelines could be tougher and could be implemented more vigorously, at least they exist. The guidelines state that on promotion to grade three, a senior civil servant must sign a notice saying that he has read the rules, which state that it will be necessary,

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  "to obtain the assent of the Government before accepting within two years of resignation or retirement offers of employment in business and other bodies and in semi-public organisations brought into being by the Government or Parliament."
  I believe that the period should be increased to five years and that the rules should be applied more vigorously.
  If it is necessary for former senior civil servants to sign such a declaration and for such guidelines to exist the same I believe should apply to former Cabinet Ministers. Why should there be a difference? Bearing in mind what has happened recently, there is all the more justification for changing the rules or the law in this matter. The Bill would of course apply to all former Cabinet Ministers.
  Several names of former Labour Ministers have been bandied around by Conservative Members and we may hear some of them today if the Bill is opposed. Lord Robens has been mentioned. Labour Members may not be the best people to defend some of those named who have changed their political allegiance. Lord Robens, however, was appointed by a Conservative Government to be chairman of the National Coal Board in 1961. The industry had been nationalised in 1946 and Lord Robens had been out of office for 10 years.
  Lord Marsh became chairman of British Rail in 1971. The railways had been taken into public ownership in 1948. Lord Marsh was appointed by a Conservative Government and, as was the case with all the appointments of former Labour Ministers that I have mentioned, his appointment could have been debated in this House. Those appointments were subject to public accountability.
  Lord Glenamara, formerly Ted Short, has also been mentioned. It is true that he became chairman of Cable and Wireless in 1976 and that he had been Postmaster General, but he had left that office in 1968—eight years before he became chairman of a public concern.
  I hope that we shall not be told that very few letters have been received on this subject and that there is, therefore, no need to take any action. How many letters had hon. Members received before it was decided to set up the Register of Members' Interests? It was recognised that there was an abuse; something was wrong, and we had to put our house in order. That is why the register was set up; it was not a question of waiting for letters to be received. How many letters were received before the guidelines for ex-senior civil servants were established? Very few, I imagine. Government and Opposition alike recognised that it was wrong that former senior civil servants should immediately on retirement join companies with which, in many cases, they had negotiated while in public office.
  We have recently been witnessing what I would describe as the politics of the pork barrel. Such practices are indefensible. The very idea that a Minister can privatise a company and then, shortly after leaving office, become the director or chairman of that company, is unacceptable to the people of Britain.
  The right hon. Member for Chingford wrote a piece in the Evening Standard defending himself. I doubt whether many of his colleagues would be too keen to rush into print to defend him. It is interesting to note that, three days later, there appeared in the same newspaper a cartoon, which showed the board of a company waiting to start a meeting. One of the directors was on his feet, saying, "I am very sorry. We have just had a telephone message from the
  870
  chairman. He has not yet quite resigned from the Government." That illustrates rightly the cynical attitude that many people take to what has been happening.
  Perhaps we shall be accused of mischief making and told that this is just an Opposition ploy. My response to that is simple: end the indefensible practices and the politics of the pork barrel and we shall not have any mischief to make over this.
  I have no illusions. I know that even if my Bill is carried today, it is not likely that, in a Tory-dominated House of Commons, the Cabinet will give me the time necessary to make progress on the Bill, although I should add that if I were given parliamentary time, I should be willing to listen carefully in Committee to arguments in support of any amendments tabled by Conservative Members. But, as I said, I have no illusions. I have merely put down a marker by highlighting the practices of the Tory Government and some of their former Ministers. I have illustrated a need for a change in the rules, and, although I know that it will probably be a Labour Government who introduce the reforms that I have advocated, there is no doubt in my mind that what I propose is required by the public.
  Even Conservative newspapers that have carried editorials on the subject—papers which rarely, if ever, support the Labour party—have concluded that what has been happening is unacceptable. In my view, it is also indefensible and I therefore ask the House to give me permission to bring in my Bill.
  4.17 pm
  Mr. Steve Norris: First, let me make it clear that I have no personal interest in this matter. I had entertained hopes of high office, but when, in that connection, I saw my name on the front page of The Sunday Times my hopes were instantly dashed. I therefore have no interest in the matter.
  My initial reaction—like that of many hon. Members—was to dismiss a Bill brought in by the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick), whom Lord Wilson of Rievaulx once described as the silliest man in the House of Commons. Most of us would not necessarily wish to detain the House on such a Bill. To be absolutely honest, I believe that Lord Wilson was being characteristically kind. The hon. Gentleman may be silly: I do not know. A lot of hon. Members on both sides of the House might just qualify for that title. But I think that the Bill is complete humbug. It is appallingly sanctimonious and it is typical of what we have come to expect from the hon. Gentleman.
  My right hon. Friends can all look after themselves. I do not think that my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) and my noble Friends in the other place need any help from me.
  As we are in the business of relating a few histories, I thought that I might relate one or two myself. Forgive me. I do not want to go over the ground that the hon. Gentleman covered when he talked about people such as Lord Glenamara, but he was selective in what he said. It is indeed true that the former Ted Short, who, incidentally, is a former deputy leader of the Labour party, appears, if I am correct, to have gained his extensive industrial experience as the headmaster of Princess Louise secondary school in Blyth. That was pre-LMS—local management of schools—so goodness knows how he would fare now.
  Having relinquished that role, Lord Glenamara became chairman of a company called Cable and Wireless. On the

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  basis of his experience, it may be true that, as was alleged at the time, he did not know his cable from his wireless. Whether or not that is true, it is true that Lord Dick Marsh joined the board of British Railways. However, what we should reflect on is that the noble Lord, after ministerial experience at the Ministry of Labour, the Ministry of Technology, the Ministry of Power and the Department of Transport, became chairman of the British Railways Board. As the hon. Gentleman singularly failed to mention, he went on to hold, by my calculation, 15 other chairmanships and major directorships and is, incidentally, still, as I understand it, an adviser to Nissan, which broadened my understanding.
  We were told of Lord Alf Robens—
  Mr. Winnick: A member of the Tory party.
  Mr. Norris: Yes, indeed. That is absolutely right. Lord Alf Robens, having been Under-Secretary at the Ministry of Fuel and Power, became chairman of the National Coal Board. However, Lord Robens was a director of Vickers and of Johnson Matthey. Does not every picture tell a story? He was also a director of a company called AMI, whose business is private hospitals. My goodness me, as far as I am aware, that is the same Lord Alf Robens.
  Then, of course, there is Lord Eric Varley, the man who landed the taxpayer with £1.6 billion worth of guarantees under the Varley-Marshall plan. Having had a spell at the Ministry of Technology and then as Secretary of State for Energy and Secretary of State for Industry, he went on to become chairman and chief executive of Coalite. That is a rather useful juxtaposition—energy, industry, and then the board of Coalite.
  Also, sadly, there was the late Lord Frank Beswick. Having been Parliamentary Secretary at the Ministry of Civil Aviation in the Labour Government, he went on to become chairman of British Aerospace—useful—and special adviser to the chairman of the British Aircraft Corporation. Then there is Edmund Dell. I delved and I found Dell. Having been a Minister in the unlamented Department of Economic Affairs, he became Minister of Technology.
  Mr. Martin Flannery: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: I do not take points of order in the middle of ten-minute Bills. I shall take it at the end.
  Mr. Norris: Practically every one of those gentlemen is distinguished by having been in the Ministry of Technology. It is extraordinary that, even now, none of us can remember what the Ministry of Technology was supposed to do or indeed did, but they have all been Ministers there. Edmund Dell went on not to run a private hospital, but to be chairman of a merchant bank, which is all jolly good stuff.
  I do not want to confine my remarks to past Members of the House, because we have enough evidence of current useful industrial interchange on Opposition Benches at the moment. We have directors of insurance companies, airlines, radio and television companies, computer companies and publishing companies. I do not have time to mention them all, but I have the names if my hon.
  872
  Friends would like them. It seems to be a classic exercise in, "Don't do as I do, do as I say." I suspect that that saying motivates many of the Labour party's policies.
  The entry in the Register of Members' Interests for the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone), who is a director of a publishing company called Localaction Ltd., says:
  "It is a company formed to cover the publication of my book and any other major writing."
  What an interesting thought. I see a seamless stream of writers, Nietzsche, Marx, Lenin, Socrates, Livingstone—that has a certain ring about it.
  Eighteen Opposition Members are paid advisers to trade unions and to commerce. I note that the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) is in his usual place and I am sure that he would defend his role as adviser to the Association of University Teachers, as the hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) would defend his role as an adviser to NATFHE—the National Association of Teachers in Further and Higher Education—and the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mrs. Taylor) would defend her role as adviser to the Assistant Masters and Mistresses Association. All would say that they were entirely objective in the advice they gave and that if they were Ministers in a future Labour Government and in charge of the Department of Education and Science their previous jobs would not, of course, have the slightest influence on their judgment. Why on earth does the hon. Member for Walsall, North argue that the same is not the case for those right hon. and noble Gentlemen on both sides of the House who have gone on to give industry the benefit of their experience?
  The real truth is simple—it is the old politics of envy again. The hon. Member for Walsall, North is distinguished, so far as I can determine, by two things—one, that he has never done a real job in his life and, secondly, that every year he loses the Association of Professional, Executive, Clerical and Computer Staff—APEX—elections to Roy Grantham.
  The Bill reveals a simple truth about the Labour party. No one who is seriously involved in business would pay for any Member of the Labour party to do any job other than chopping sticks. No Opposition Member, including the shadow trade and industry team and the shadow Treasury team, has the slightest idea of the requirements of management. The Labour party cannot see enterprise and success without wanting to attack them—it does not seek to foster them. When industry and commerce look around for talent, energy and entrepreneurial skill it is no accident that they find those qualities in overwhelming abundance on the Conservative Benches.
  Every other country in Europe recognises the interchange between the Government and industry. They appreciate that it is vital, healthy and necessary to sustain industrial and commercial growth. That also leads to a greater understanding in national Parliaments of industrial and commercial issues.
  I believe that we should treat the Bill with the contempt it deserves. It is a typical exercise in humbug and the politics of envy. It has no place in logic and I invite my hon. Friends to treat it with the contempt it so richly deserves.
  Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 19 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of public business), and agreed to.
  Mr. Speaker: Who will prepare and bring in the Bill?
  Mr. Winnick: We have just witnessed a shocking abuse of our procedures. The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Norris) is a twit, because he has not answered my argument.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. It is in order for hon. Members to speak against a ten-minute Bill, provided that they register their objection. It is not always necessary to have a vote. That practice is enshrined in our Standing Orders, but it might be as well for the Select Committee on Procedure to consider it for the future.
  Mr. Winnick: I am most grateful to you, Mr. Speaker.
  Hon. Members: Withdraw the word "twit".
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I have heard worse expressions in the House.
  Mr. Winnick: It is mild I agree, but I am a moderate chap.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. David Winnick, Mr. Andrew F. Bennett, Mr. George J. Buckley, Mr. Terry Davis, Mr. Don Dixon, Mr. Frank Cook, Mr. Jeremy Corbyn, Mr. Doug Hoyle, Ms. Joyce Quin, Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse, Mr. Martin Redmond and Mr. Alan Williams.

  FORMER CABINET MINISTERS (INTERESTS)
  Mr. David Winnick accordingly presented a Bill to prohibit former Cabinet Ministers, within a period of five years after leaving office, from accepting any employment with or payment from a company which was privatised while they were members of the Cabinet, or which had a commercial or contractual relationship with a Department of State for which or in which they had Ministerial responsibility: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 20 July and to be printed. [Bill 176.]
  Mr. Speaker: I know it is nearly the start of the summer holidays, but we should contain ourselves until the end of the month.

  Opposition Day
  [17TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Opposition Day

    Schools
    4.29 pm
    Mr. Jack Straw: I beg to move,
    That this House is profoundly alarmed at the crisis in the nation's schools and the collapse in teacher morale, the serious problems of retention and recruitment, the deteriorating state of school buildings, and the under-funding of the system; condemns Her Majesty's Government for its lack of ambition and leadership for the nation's young, for pushing through changes which are adding to the crisis, for the fact that one-third of children are getting a raw deal, and that fewer young people stay on in full-time education than in any major competitor country; and calls for action now to raise the standards of education and to invest properly in the nation's future.
    Mr. Speaker: I have selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. A large number of hon. Members wish to participate in this debate and, sadly, as a result of our late start, it will be impossible to call them all. I shall be able to call many more if speeches from both the Front Benches, and also the Back Benches, are brief.
    Mr. Straw: This late start owes nothing to the endeavours of the Opposition and everything to the attempts by Conservative Members to sabotage an Opposition day yet again.
    Across the country there is a rising sense of crisis in our schools. It is a crisis recognised in all areas by people of all political persuasions. It is a crisis for which the Government are overwhelmingly responsible. Some 11 years ago, this Administration came to power promising to promote higher standards of achievement. Similar pledges were made in 1983. The 1987 Conservative manifesto stated:
    "The time has now come for school reform."
    We do not know how many votes were garnered on the promise of those so-called reforms. We do know what has happened. Ill-considered, meritricious and often contradictory changes have turned out to be a lethal cocktail which has brought the school system to a lower point than at any time since the war.
    The Government's prospectus for the system has clearly failed. The Secretary of State knows that. In April, The Independent on Sunday stated:
    "Many of the school and college changes introduced by Kenneth Baker when he was Secretary of State for Education are falling apart. His successor, John MacGregor, is increasingly preoccupied with a damage limitation exercise."
    The scale of the crisis caused by that damage can scarcely be exaggerated. Every day, I receive letters and reports from head teachers, governors and parents, worried sick about their children's education. Those representations come more often from traditional Conservative areas than from Labour's heartlands.
    The chairman of governors of a large and successful secondary school in Cheltenham wrote to me:
    "the supply of teachers"—
    even in her area—
    "is becoming such a problem that the state education service is under threat."
    I have a letter from the headmaster of Hyde primary school in Hampshire, which has no physical education

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    hall, kitchen, dining area or playing fields and has outside toilets for boys. The headmaster said that inadequate funding under the local management for schools formulae was causing him to "cut back staffing". That point is underlined in a survey published today by the National Association of School Masters/Union of Women Teachers. It shows that well over 3,000 jobs are likely to be lost as a direct result of the introduction of the local management of schools.
    School buildings across the country are in an appalling state. There is a £3 billion backlog. The Bucks Herald led its issue of 7 June with the headline, "Crumbling Schools Crisis" and quoted the county architect, John Stewart, as saying:
    "We are rapidly reaching the point … where we can no longer keep pace with the progressive dilapidation of the buildings under our control."
    Saving money, making do and mend, is a constant theme of the reports and letters that I receive. The Mail on Sunday led its edition of 27 May with the headline:
    "The Scandal of Our Schools."
    It stated:
    "Britain's State education system is in danger of collapse,"
    according to disturbing new research commissioned by the National Foundation for Educational Research. It continued:
    "Only huge contributions from parents are saving schools from a complete breakdown."
    The research that the paper quoted found that one third of all money spent in schools on books and equipment came from parents, who were providing nearly £40 million for primary schools alone.
    What a mockery all that makes of parental choice, of which we hear so much from the Secretary of State. The choice facing many parents is no choice at all—the "choice" of paying up a second time for essentials for their children's education, which they thought they had already paid for once through taxation.
    The very principle of free state education is being whittled away by the Government. For example, what kind of choice have the parents of children at Crawford primary school in Southwark? One class there has had four teachers this term, and the children were told a couple of days ago that they would have to be sent home until September. There are overwhelming teacher shortages, because teachers' salaries are insufficient. Some secretaries in the area are paid more than they are, and the Government have poll tax capped the local education authority.
    Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when I visited a London school when Labour was in office I found that one class had had the misfortune to have seven teachers in one term? We all agree that it is extremely difficult to teach in London, and that is one of the reasons why the Government have introduced education reforms. No one condones the present position; however, the problems were infinitely worse under Labour, and were not solved under its Administration either.
    Mr. Straw: The hon. Lady is wrong. As anyone involved in the education system knows, the position was infinitely better under Labour.
    Ms. Harriet Harman: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is an appalling indictment of the system that parents have had to take over and teach children at Crawford primary school? They have been told that otherwise the children will have to be sent home, and there will be no more schooling for them until next term, at the beginning of September. Have not the Government been appallingly complacent in ignoring the problems of teacher shortages in London, especially south-east London?
    Mr. Straw: I agree with my hon. Friend. The Secretary of State for Education and Science has shown abject complacency: he has washed his hands of responsibility for what is happening, not only in inner London but in many other parts of Britain where he is seeking to ensure that authorities spend less than they do now. He is more concerned about the level of poll tax bills than about ensuring that children receive a decent education.
    Mr. Spencer Batiste: The hon. Gentleman is making a case for massive extra expenditure. How much would he spend if he were Secretary of State for Education and Science, and why is the Leader of the Opposition doing so much to suggest that a Labour Government would not spend those vast sums?
    Mr. Straw: I was hoping to quote the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden) later in my speech. In a fine speech at Chatham House, he said that there must be an increase of one third in spending on state education. He caustically asked any of his hon. Friends who might challenge that policy whether any of them, or their children, had ever been inside a state school.
    My answer to the hon. Member for Elmet (Mr. Batiste) is that, just as the Leader of the House cannot say what tax rates will be—even on the day before the Budget—I cannot say exactly how much we shall spend when we are in government, in two years' time. With the backing of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, I can say for sure that a Labour Government will spend more on education and training, because it is essential for the economy of this country and its survival that we start investing in the nation's future, instead of undermining it.
    Mr. George Walden: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reading my speech—let alone quoting from it—but I fear that he may have inadvertently failed to give the House the full flavour of what I said. I said that I was in favour of increased spending on education, but emphatically not in favour of putting any money at all into the failed education philosophy represented by the Labour party.
    Mr. Straw: I know what the hon. Gentleman said, but I was going to send the hon. Gentleman a few tracts so that he would realise that we are thinking along the same lines.
    So tight is the financial squeeze on primary schools that, on average, they are given less than the cost of four Mars bars a week to spend on books and educational equipment for their children—a point eloquently made by the president of the National Association of Head Teachers.
    Some reports of school responses to the squeeze have a grotesque, pathetic flavour. The Daily Telegraph reported on 23 June that the Chilvers Coton first school in

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    Nuneaton saved money by cutting paper towels in half but had stopped the practice after two pupils had contracted hepatitis.
    These accounts of life in the English schools system in 1990 are confirmed by a succession of official reports. The Government-appointed teachers' pay committee in its report in February said that teacher morale was lower even than in 1989–90. That was also recognised by the Select Committee. There was also a stark message from the teachers' pay committee that the pay award forced through the House three weeks ago would lead to a real pay cut for almost every teacher.
    Some 50 per cent. of newly trained teachers leave the profession within five years. The proportion of graduates entering teacher training has halved in eight years and at Cambridge university it halved in a year last year. The Secretary of State denies that there is a problem. He held a press conference on Friday to announce the success of recruitment advertising by Saatchi and Saatchi. He is so complacent about teachers and teaching that in the litany of self-congratulation in his amendment there is not a single mention of teachers.
    If it is all so good out there, will the Secretary of State now guarantee to every parent that no child will be without a properly qualified, permanent teacher in front of the class in September? I invite the Secretary of State to answer that question. He does not respond, so I shall repeat the question. I am asking for a simple reply. He says that there is no problem and proclaims the success of Saatchi and Saatchi's advertising. Will he guarantee to every parent that no child will be without a properly qualified, permanent teacher in front of the class in September?
    Mr. Harry Greenway: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Straw: No, I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman. I am waiting for the Secretary of State to answer my question. The Secretary of State has been given two opportunities to reply and has failed to do so.
    The most damning part of the Government's record is the report from Her Majesty's senior chief inspector of schools which stated that, in terms of educational standards, 30 per cent. of pupils—over 2 million—were getting a raw deal. What an indictment of the Government after 11 years in power. The Secretary of State's amendment refers to the local management of schools and the national curriculum.
    Mr. Greenway rose—
    Mr. Straw: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman, but, before doing so, I remind Conservative Members that, thanks to the Government, this is a short debate.
    Mr. Greenway: The hon. Gentleman's dismissal of the efforts of teachers and his slighting of their efforts will be bitterly resented in common rooms throughout Britain. [Interruption.] I hope that the hon. Gentleman will have the courtesy to listen. I know that basically he is a courteous man. When he and I first met we were attacking wicked cuts in education by the Labour Government of the day. At that time he had the courage to stand up to his party, but he seems to have lost that courage. The hon. Gentleman will remember that in 1976 there was such a
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    shortage of teachers that those of us who were running schools had to scour the streets in an effort to find people. [Interruption.]
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): Order. The hon. Gentleman must respect the Chair and I hope that he will do that in future. Interventions must be brief.
    Mr. Straw: I made a mistake in giving way to the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Doug Hoyle: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I distinctly heard the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway), whom you have just rebuked, say that you deserved it.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: I did not hear the remark, but I saw the hon. Gentleman making gestures that were clearly discourteous to the Chair. I hope that I shall not have to endure a repetition of that.
    Mr. Straw: The Secretary of State's amendment refers to the local management of schools and the national curriculum. In both cases the Government have taken a good idea and nearly murdered it. Centrally dictated formulae for funding which take no proper account of a school's circumstances are barmy. A national core curriculum could and should be a guarantee of education entitlement for all children. There is a role for testing and assessment, and it is to diagnose children's strengths and weaknesses, and to provide information to parents and teachers on children's progress and on the performance of schools. However, Ministers have allowed this national curriculum and the formal testing associated with it to get completely out of hand.
    On Friday the Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science, the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Howarth), spoke about "wieldy and intimidating tests" which the Government have imposed by way of a pilot scheme on about 400 schools. He said that those tests for seven-year-olds would have to be reduced. Apparently even the Prime Minister has had second thoughts. In April she told The Sunday Telegraph that she wondered whether the Government were "doing it right" on the national curriculum. The answer to the Prime Minister's question is that her Government are doing it wrong and, despite the Secretary of State's blandishments, they continue to do it wrong.
    In a thinly disguised attack on his predecessor, now the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, the Secretary of State announced in February
    "measures to cut the burden of paperwork on schools caused by the Education Reform Act."
    He claimed that that measure would save 150,000 sheets of printed paper. That sounds impressive, but it works out at just six sheets per school. It pales into insignificance compared with the 1,438 sheets of paper which almost every teacher has received and has to absorb under the national curriculum. That compares with more than half a billion sheets of paper which the system as a whole now has to digest.
    The day after his damning report of the state of English education the senior chief inspector of schools gave an interview to The Daily Telegraph. He described the national curriculum and the local management of schools as a gamble. He said that in the short term it would exacerbate
    "teacher shortages and resourcing difficulties."

    879
    He was right. Ministers have been gambling with our children's education. Their behaviour is made all the more culpable by the fact that the spin of the wheel, the gamble, is always with other people's children and never with their own.
    When the Opposition say that most Ministers have educated their children in the private sector the discomfort of Conservative Members is patently obvious. In February The Sunday Times said that, of 21 Cabinet members with children, 20 had sent their children to private schools at an average cost of a place today of £4,200 a year. That is twice the average of £1,900 in the state system. All three of the Secretary of State's children went to private school, as did both children of the previous Secretary of State.
    Mr. James Paice rose—
    Mr. Straw: No, I will not give way.
    If those Ministers who sent their children to private schools were to apply the same policies and financial constraints to private schools as they apply to the schools which educate 95 per cent. of the country's children, they would be beyond reproach. In truth, they apply a double standard of breathtaking proportions which so mocks those in the maintained sector as to be immoral.
    The national curriculum applies by law to state education but not to private schools. Rigid formula funding is imposed on state schools, but, under the assisted places scheme, no formula applies to state funding of private schools. The actual costs of up to £7,000 per day place are paid wherever they are incurred. Local authorities are poll charge capped for spending £1,900 per pupil while the state funds fees in private schools at two or three times that level per pupil. The standard spending assessments for education are set so low by the Secretary of State that local education authorities would have to cut millions from their budgets and sack thousands of teachers to get anywhere near those levels. However, private schools are able to raise fees well above the level of inflation.
    Mr. Paice: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Straw: No.
    Pay increases for teachers in state schools are held below the level of inflation, while private schools and city technology colleges are able to pay more to get the best. Private schools can use their influence to raise millions of pounds for laboratories and equipment while state schools are starved of cash. The conclusion to be drawn from such double dealing is that, like other people, Ministers want the best for their children but they believe that they can have that only if they pay for the best: for small classes; well-equipped laboratories; well-maintained buildings; and well-paid teachers. But it is different for other people's children. Ministers claim that they can get the best in larger classes and crumbling buildings, with too little equipment, too few books, and a demotivated and underpaid teaching force.
    Another consequence is that by boycotting the maintained system Ministers send out a clear message that they lack serious personal commitment to state education
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    and that they are as profoundly ignorant of its achievements as they are of what needs to be done to sustain and improve it.
    Mr. Paice: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Straw: I have already explained to the hon. Gentleman, although I realise that he does not like it, that I am not going to give way any more because of lack of time. He should make his own speech. Perhaps he might complain to the Government Whips about their attempts to sabotage this debate earlier.
    The Sunday Times recorded in February that the Secretary of State sent his son, who is now grown up, to Highgate school, which is on the border of the London boroughs of Camden and Haringey. Fees at that school amount to more than £4,000 per pupil per year, and many of its pupils are subsidised by the state through the assisted places scheme.
    How can the Secretary of State justify poll tax capping Camden and Haringey local education authorities, which are spending £1,200 less per child in their charge than he thought it right to spend on his child? Would he be happy to have his child educated with the level of resources that the Government have dictated is sufficient for poll tax capped authorities to spend in the north, the north-west, Yorkshire, Derbyshire, Greater London and Avon?
    I hope that the Secretary of State will now respond to a second question, because his amendment claims that there have been
    "lasting improvements in standards in schools"
    in the past 11 years. If, as the Secretary of State claims, 11 years of Tory Government have led to lasting improvements in the state system, is that system now good enough for him to have his child educated by it? I invite the Secretary of State to reply to this critical question about whether the Government apply one standard or two to the education of our children. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] For the second time today, we have seen the Secretary of State refuse to answer questions—first about whether he could guarantee that every child in a state school will have a teacher in September; and secondly about whether, after 11 years of Tory Government, the state system is sufficiently good to educate his children or those of his Cabinet colleagues. What a lack of confidence that displays in the system over which he and his colleagues have presided for 11 years.
    Mr. Dave Nellist: My hon. Friend may not have heard several Tory Members accusing him, from a sedentary position, of personalising the debate and of attacking only the Secretary of State. Does my hon. Friend realise that 250 Tory Members have been to public school and received private education? As a section of society, they are not prepared to give our children the same facilities, the same pupil-teacher ratios and the same start in life that 250 of them received.
    Mr. Straw: I entirely accept what my hon. Friend says.
    Mr. Paice: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Straw: No. I have given way more to Conservative Members than to my hon. Friends.
    By any serious international standards, the state to which the Government have reduced the education system is a disgrace. "National scandal" was the phrase used by Derek Jewell, the chairman of the Headmasters'

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    conference of private schools, to describe state funding of the system which, as a proportion of national wealth, has declined in the past 11 years. We need a Government with a clear ambition for the nation's young people, ready to set targets for raising academic performance and the percentage of young people staying on at school, with clear mechanisms for delivering those targets. We need a Government committed to investing more in young people's education, and equally committed—by example, leadership and systematic appraisal of performance—to ensuring that we get more out of that investment and end the enormous and unacceptable variations in performance between otherwise similar schools. We would get all that from a Labour Government, but the Secretary of State has no ambition and no leadership: he is a Treasury placement so uninterested in the effect on children's lives of the policy to which he is a party that he could not even bring himself to meet education representatives from poll tax capped authorities.
    Incredibly, instead of using demographic decline to secure a once-in-a-lifetime boost to the staying-on rate after 16, without substantial extra cost, the Secretary of State in his public expenditure White Paper plans to cut 80,000 places in full-time education for 16 to 19-year-olds, and he stands supinely by while the Secretary of State for Employment cuts nearly £300 million from the budget for training young people.
    As ever, as the Government flounder, Ministers start to blame each other.
    "Senior Conservatives are alarmed by Labour's growing lead in the polls over the government's education policies,"
    reported The Independent on Sunday on 18 June.
    "The shift of opinion in Labour's favour has been greater than on any other issue…The Prime Minister and Kenneth Baker blame John MacGregor the Secretary of State for Education for failing to promote Government changes".
    A month ago we learned from a report which has the fingerprints of the Conservative party chairman all over it that the Secretary of State was to be given a new public relations minder—a man called Robin Light—as Central Office was so worried about the Secretary of State's performance.
    To add insult to injury, we read in yesterday's diary in The Times of an attempt to bail out the Secretary of State:
    "Conceding that education is their weakest area, a number of Tory MPs say Mrs. Currie should join John MacGregor's team and add flair and excitement to a lacklustre department."
    I do not wish to intrude on private grief, but the piece continued:
    "MacGregor, who as agriculture minister had to take much of the flak over her salmonella-in-eggs gaffe, might suggest another description."
    It also raised questions not only about the future of the Secretary of State but about that of the Minister of State and the Under-Secretary of State. Although Conservative Members may want them to go, we want them to stay, because every time they open their mouths they raise our lead in the polls.
    In a catalogue of failure, few policies have failed so monumentally as opting-out. In 1987, the Prime Minister predicted that by the next election—which will be next year or the year after—most eligible schools would have opted out of local authority control. That would amount to thousands. The dice have been heavily loaded in favour of opted-out schools. The advice that the Department of Education and Science has issued to schools has been so biased that even the Tory-controlled Association of
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    County Councils has protested. Despite that, not thousands, not hundreds but only 44 schools have opted out, with more in Tory-controlled than in Labour-controlled areas.
    So the Prime Minister, who is pathologically obsessed about local education authorities, announced off the cuff to a conference 10 days ago that opting out is to be made easier, and that the local government finance system will be rigged so that poll tax can be reduced where schools opt out. When that emerged, the Secretary of State was reduced to getting his press officer to telephone journalists to tell them that there is no difference of opinion between him and the Prime Minister.
    If there is no difference of opinion, will the Secretary of State tell us now, or in his speech, how the scheme for cutting the poll tax is to work, how the new arrangements for opting out are to work and how such further upheaval squares with a categorical undertaking that he gave in an interview on 9 March, that
    "No new school reforms would be introduced by a Conservative government until 1994 at the earliest"?
    That the centrepiece of the Government's answer to the educational challenges of the 1990s should be fiddled ballots for opting out is a mark of the mediocrity to which their education thinking has now been reduced.
    It first dawned on this country towards the end of the last century that the rise of Germany as an industrial power had been built upon superior investment in education and training. Then other countries such as Japan, the United States, France and Italy overtook us. Our £20 billion trade deficit is paralleled by an even bigger deficit in the education and skills of our young people. If we are to compete as well as to give our young people their birthright, we must invest in their education and training. We need an end to the Government and an end to their wilful damage of our education service. We need a Government who are committed to a state education system, who use the system and who have real ambition for the nation's young. The only way to achieve that is to have a Labour Government.
    4.59 pm
    The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. John MacGregor): I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
    "congratulates the Government on its programme for securing further lasting improvements in standards in schools through its policies for the national curriculum; assessment and testing, increased parental choice, and greater autonomy for schools; notes increased recurrent and capital expenditure since 1979 in real terms per pupil of 40 per cent. and 13 per cent., respectively; notes widespread public support for the Government's reforms and welcomes the significant increase in staying on rates among 16 and 17-year-olds in the last two years and in the numbers going on to higher education which show the success of the Government's policies; and contrasts this inspiring programme with the failure of the Opposition to produce alternative proposals offering similar leadership for the nation's young.".
    The hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) made a profound speech. However, having listened to his speeches since I became Secretary of State, I am bound to say that they have three characteristics. First, the hon. Gentleman always uses the same material and it is getting pretty tired and trivial now. Secondly, his sole preoccupation seems to be to string together every negative quotation and every negative statistic that he can find—and they can be found

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    in every country and in every education system—and by lumping them all together he seems to think that he is making some sort of contribution to the education debate. Let me tell him quite clearly that he is not. The picture that he gave today is unbalanced, incoherent and a travesty of what is happening in our schools.
    Ms. Harman: Will the Secretary of State give way?
    Mr. MacGregor: We have heard that this is a short debate, but I shall give way just this once.
    Ms. Harman: Is the Secretary of State aware that in my constituency alone six primary schools regularly send children home and that six and seven-year-olds go to school only to be told again that there is no teacher for them? What will the Secretary of State do to guarantee a decent education for Southwark children?
    Mr. MacGregor: I shall come to that point in due course, because we have been doing a great deal. But it is a travesty to suggest that what happens in some schools in Southwark is typical of what is happening throughout the country.
    The hon. Member for Blackburn completely failed to acknowledge the substantial progress that is being made. He has given no credit, please note, to the teachers for their many recent achievements. His sole intent is on black headlines and never mind the real story. He is the classical perpetual Opposition spokesman.
    Thirdly, once again the hon. Gentleman has failed to answer the key question that has been put to him so often from the Conservative Benches—what would Labour actually spend? It is not enough for him to claim that resources are insufficient when his own policy document is long on platitudes, short on costs and takes refuge in those all pervasive words "as resources allow".
    Mr. Win Griffiths: The Secretary of State uses those words.
    Mr. MacGregor: I do not use those words. The Labour document is riddled with that phrase, and I know perfectly well why.
    Mr. Griffiths: I remind the Secretary of State that when he appeared before the Select Committee on Education, Science and Arts he referred to expanding education as soon as resources allowed on more than one occasion when he was challenged by Conservative Members. He can check the record. He used those words.
    Mr. MacGregor: Of course, I believe in spending as resources allow, but the big difference is that, by its hints that it will spend more, the Labour party somehow pretends that that does not matter. But the record shows that this Government have been spending more on education than the previous Labour Government did because we have been improving the resources. That is the key difference. The question that the hon. Member for Blackburn never answers is what a Labour Government would spend. The answer is clear from his silence in every debate that we have had—not a penny more. That simple fact destroys the whole of his speech.
    On an earlier occasion I described a decade of action under this Government: to improve education standards,
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    to extend opportunity and choice and to improve the management of steadily increasing resources. I deal now with the ground that we have covered in the past year.
    First, the programme for the national curriculum is well on target. There is absolutely no retreat. The House has approved programmes of study for English, maths, science and technology. We are completing work on geography, history and modern languages. The proposals are rigorous and have widespead support. We are taking practical decisions on arrangements for assessment, ensuring that they achieve their objectives in a workable way.
    On assessment at seven, it is right to try different types of schemes. They are being piloted in 2 per cent. of schools. They are not in full application and they are not being reported. We shall be assessing the pilot schemes and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I am determined that that assessment will be carried out in a workable way. But it must be real assessment, which improves standards and—I think the hon. Gentleman agrees with this—which achieves the results that we seek. We must strike the right balance and we shall do so.
    In the classroom, Her Majesty's inspectors report excellent progress in the range and quality of work in the core subjects. There was not a word from the hon. Gentleman about that. There is a marked improvement in curriculum planning. I meet many teachers who are making good use of that national framework for exercising their professional skills. That has been a major programme of work and reform and it will continue to be so for some years ahead.
    In April, all but a handful of local education authorities introduced schemes for local management of schools. That gives schools fairer shares of the education budget and much greater autonomy in the management of their affairs. In itself, it does not alter the total resources available, but it distributes them in a more open way, based on better and clearer criteria. One in eight schools already have delegated budgets. Next year, it will be one in four. That will reduce local bureaucracy. It has made schools and local education authorities more accountable and it has enhanced the position of head teachers and staff in line with changes in the pay structure that reward leadership and responsibility.
    Ms. Harman: The Secretary of State does not know what he is talking about.
    Mr. MacGregor: If the hon. Lady talks to teachers in schools that have piloted local management of schools during the past few years, they will tell her of the benefits.
    Mr. Derek Fatchett: Will the Secretary of State give way?
    Mr. MacGregor: No, I shall not give way. I have already said that I would not give way again.
    During the past school year we have lifted artificial limits on the places available in popular secondary schools. By this September the number of grant-maintained schools will have increased from 18 to 44. The number of applicants to those schools has risen sharply—by 40 per cent. on average this coming September. There has been a remarkable change in atmosphere and morale and proposals are already coming from another 16 schools.

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    The same goes for city technology colleges. Four more will open next term to join the four already in operation. Again, the demand from parents for places for their children in those city technology colleges is high.
    I am not surprised that the hon. Member for Blackburn is so implacably opposed to that policy. He cannot bear the thought that those schools are proving so popular. The Labour party prefers the monopoly supply of a uniform product. It likes to think that it knows what is best for children and is determined to deprive parents of that choice.
    We have set in hand a major programme of work towards further improving the standard and relevance of post-16 education and the proportion of young people who benefit from it. Those improvements start in schools. We have introduced the general certificate of secondary education and the technical and vocational education initiative. That has markedly increased standards of attainment.
    In 1989, the proportion of candidates achieving grades A to C increased from the previous year by 3.5 percentage points to 46 per cent. It is encouraging that many more young people are staying on in full-time education. To listen to the hon. Gentleman, one would not think that such things had happened. He does not like hearing about them. He prefers to talk his way through them.
    The first year after the introduction of the GCSE saw the participation of 16-year-olds rise to 52 per cent. In the second year, 1989–90, provisional figures suggest that as many as 56 per cent. Of 6-year-olds are now engaged in full-time education. Provisional figures from the largest examining body, the Associated Examining Board, suggest that the number taking A and AS examinations is likely to be the highest ever even though there are fewer pupils in the relevant age group. All of that is working through to substantially higher numbers going into higher education—more than 1 million students now compared with 750,000 in 1979. The number is increasing markedly year by year, with an increase of about 10 per cent. in the past year in the number going to universities and polytechnics. There is a clear sign that that will continue next year.
    We have now implemented this year's pay settlement, based on the interim advisory committee's admirable report, enabling us to introduce further improvements to the career structure, local flexibility and rewards for responsibility and classroom skills. All of that, to use the report's own words, can surely be described as far reaching.
    Mr. Straw: Will the Secretary of State now answer the question that I put to him twice during my speech? If things are so good for the teaching profession, can he guarantee that no child will be without a permanent properly qualified teacher in front of his or her class this September?
    Mr. MacGregor: Did the Labour Government ever give that guarantee, and would one ever do so in future? I shall deal with the position of teachers later, but I will tell the hon. Gentleman now why that is a false question. There are problems in some geographical areas and in some skills. Some issues of considerable standing reflect not simply on the education system but on the geographical area in which they arise. We have been taking a number of actions to deal with those problems, at a time when recruitment for all sorts of occupations is becoming more
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    intense. I am not prepared to be unrealistic and to give such a guarantee, but we are doing a great deal to address the issues.
    That question was about as silly as the hon. Gentleman's other question, which I shall now answer. I sent half of my children to state schools and the other half to independent schools. That was a considerable time ago. It is right that people should have that choice. If I had children now, I should happily send them to the many excellent schools in Norfolk. However, at the time I was concerned about the quality and direction of education that was being provided in the borough, and I exercised choice, which I think is a parental right. We have the assisted places scheme to extend the range of choice. I note that the hon. Gentleman went to Brentwood school in Essex, which takes pupils on the assisted places scheme. Would he deny others the opportunity to give their children the education that he had, by abolishing the assisted places scheme? That is one of the questions that he must answer.
    Mr. Straw: I am delighted to answer the question. The reason why I am in the Labour party and not in the Tory party is that I want every child to have a similar opportunity with a similar level of resources. The test is not where someone went to school, but where he sent his children to school. Let us consider the example of the school that the right hon. Gentleman's son attended. Some £4,000 per pupil is spent by the state at Highgate school, while the Government are poll tax-capping two London boroughs, Haringey and Camden, which are spending £2,800 per pupil—£1,200 less. How is that justified?
    Mr. MacGregor: I have already written to the hon. Gentleman about that. He has completely missed the point about parental choice and opportunities for different sorts of education. The hon. Gentleman knows that I have written to him saying that the comparisons being made were bogus because he failed to take into account parental contribution and other considerations. I shall repeat what I said in my letter to him. Once an allowance is made for those areas of spending, there is little difference in the average payment made in support of an assisted place and the average secondary unit cost. That deals with that point.
    I have just completed wide-ranging consultations on the future pay mechanisms for teachers with a view to introducing legislation next Session. We are continuing with—indeed, adding to—a substantial package of measures on teacher recruitment, including investing in measures to tackle shortages in particular subjects, and an advertising recruitment campaign, which is having an excellent response, but which, typically, the hon. Gentleman tries to denigrate. Those are just a few of the many very positive areas of achievement and progress in the past year.
    There is one new announcement that I wish to make this afternoon. I am today writing to the local authority associations setting out my proposed support grants programme for 1991–92. There are three background points that I wish to stress before giving the detailed figures. First, as announced earlier this year, I am accepting the recommendation of a recent efficiency scrutiny that the education support grant and local

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    education authority training grant scheme should be brought together into a single programme. Next year's grant programme will reflect that.
    Secondly, it must be borne in mind that that programme is small in relation to total spending on schools, which this year will amount to well over £11,000 million. The actual expenditure on the subjects that I am about to announce will often be a good deal greater than the amounts supported under the grant programme itself, because a great deal will come out of that £11,000 million as well. Nevertheless, the programme has an important effect in ensuring targeting of significant sums on specific aspects of policy.
    Thirdly, I held meetings with local authority representatives earlier this year during which I said that the specific grants programme should be more effectively concentrated on fewer items of high priority, and I suggested those that I had in mind. There was general agreement with the views that I expressed.
    I now propose a programme that will support no less than £364 million of expenditure in 1991–92. Of that, more than £270 million will be targeted on the education reforms of the 1988 Act, which we are now putting in place. That is a major funding boost. In 1990–91, education support grants and training grants are already supporting more than £190 million of spending on reforms. The programme that I am announcing today increases that by almost £80 million, or 40 per cent.
    My proposals include almost £90 million of spending on activities to improve school management, including support for local management of schools, management training for school heads and other staff, and training and support for school governors. They include £170 million for activities underpinning the national curriculum, including a new £35 million activity to help get the new national curriculum assessment arrangements into place, a new activity to help schools buy more books, more support to help schools to buy information technology equipment, and more support for preparing teachers to teach the national curriculum.
    The focus of the grants programme is very much on the education reforms. However, as in previous years, I intend that the grants should also cover other key areas. I am proposing a substantial increase in support for teacher recruitment. That will help local education authorities take steps to draw into teaching more mature entrants and former teachers, through setting up creches, taster courses, keeping-in-touch schemes, counselling services, and so on. There is a new activity to help local education authorities to improve provision for the under-fives, especially through better planning and co-ordination of work across the maintained and voluntary sectors. Full details of my proposals have been placed in the Library.
    Mr. Nicholas Soames rose—
    Mr. MacGregor: I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me, but I should not give way again.
    The grants programme that I am announcing today will provide significant and essential underpinning of the Government's education policies. It will ensure that funds are directed purposefully and effectively to where they are
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    most needed. The £364 million is vital further support for schools and colleges that are already working so hard, helping them to make a real success of the reforms.
    I shall now deal with some of the hon. Gentleman's specific charges. He referred to Her Majesty's inspectors' annual report and others. It is typical of him to be highly selective in what he quoted, so I shall cite some of the main findings to get the perspective right, and they are the main findings. Some 70 to 80 per cent. of work seen across schools and colleges was satisfactory or better; one third was good or very good. The beneficial impact of the Education Reform Act 1988 is already beginning to show. The implementation of the national curriculum is beginning to bring about specific and general improvement. The benefits of the GCSE and TVEI continue to be felt. That is all stated in the report.
    Primary schools have made a rapid and effective start to implementing the national curriculum in the core subjects. Both in post-16 and in higher education, the general picture is that some 80 per cent. of what HMI saw was judged satisfactory or better. The quality of teaching and learning in further education colleges is generally satisfactory and slightly better than last year—just over 80 per cent. of the lessons were of good quality. The great majority of heads welcome the opportunity that local management of schools presents to control their budgets.
    I could continue, and I think that it is right to do so, to put the perspective right because the hon. Gentleman always draws attention to the bits that could be improved without recognising all the things that have been done and the great improvements that have been made. It is demoralising for teachers if he continues constantly to emphasise that when there is so much good happening in the system. There will always be much more to do, improvements to be made, standards to be raised, new challenges to be met and new teaching methods brought in by technology to be exploited. We are doing a great deal to continue the improvement process.
    The overall conclusion of the report states:
    "The overall picture is of a service in which most of what is done is of reasonable quality or better. That is a sound basis for improvement and change and should be recognised as such."
    Opposition Members do themselves no credit and earn no thanks from the many hard-working and dedicated teachers whom I meet by constantly dwelling on the negative. They should do as we do, and accentuate the positive while taking effective action to improve what is poor.
    On resources, the hon. Gentleman's speech contained nothing new—although I listened carefully to what he said. He asserted, by implication, that schools were starved of resources. He knows that that is not true. They are better staffed and better provided for than ever before. The pupil-teacher ratio is an all-time best. This is the bit that the hon. Member for Blackburn never likes to hear. Funding per pupil has risen more than 40 per cent. in real terms since 1979–80. Overall spending on the various sectors of education has also risen in real terms. There has been a 58 per cent. increase in provision for the under-fives, a 33 per cent. increase for special schools, 17 per cent. for primary schools, 12 per cent. for secondary schools, and more than 20 per cent. for further and adult education.
    It costs nothing for the Labour party to say that it will spend even more "as resources allow". No one believes

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    Labour anyway. Labour might pretend that it will spend even more "as resources allow", but we all know what that meant under the Labour Government of the 1970s. It meant positive reductions in some education programmes and a much smaller increase than we have achieved in others.
    We all want education to benefit from increased prosperity. The Government's reforms will help in addition to get better value for the money already invested.
    There are many more things that I could say, but in the interest of allowing other hon. Members to speak, I shall not respond to other charges made by the hon. Member for Blackburn. However, I shall address recent claims that local management will force schools to make thousands of teachers redundant. I have seen claims that tens of thousands would be made redundant—at one point the figure given was 70,000, but it has been whittled down and down. That simply is not the case. I quote:
    "Local management of schools serves as a convenient whipping boy for those unwilling to face up to the realities of falling rolls and surplus places."
    Those words are not mine but come from an editorial that appeared in The Times Educational Supplement at the end of last month. In none of the cases of teacher redundancies reported in the press so far has the treatment of teacher salaries under local management of schools been a contributory factor.
    What are the facts? First, vacancies. There are 400,000 teachers, and under this Government there have never been more than 2 per cent. of so posts vacant. The figure remains below that—and in many authorities, well below. What we must tackle is uneven distribution, particularly in inner London and in certain subjects.
    Secondly, the number of teachers leaving the profession has not changed significantly for 10 years although migration from inner London has increased. But recruitment has also increased steadily. This year, 21,700 students started initial teacher training courses, which was 2.5 per cent. above target—and we are increasing the target. Primary recruitment was up by 13 per cent. Applications to postgraduate certificate of education courses starting in September are currently 5 per cent. up on this time last year. About 25,000 people enter or re-enter teaching each year.
    The problem is local and subject-specific, and I agree that there are subject-specific issues. The reason is that the skills concerned—mathematics, physics and technology—are precisely the skills for which over decades we have not been producing enough people. That problem is now being addressed by the national curriculum, GCSE and TVEI. In an expanding and prosperous economy, they are also the skills that are in high demand. Our approach involves target-specific recruitment measures, including bursaries, which have improved the position, and the licensed and articled teachers scheme to bring back into teaching people who are more mature. In that context, the high response that we received in the recruitment advertising campaign from people aged over 26—graduates and non-graduates alike—was significant. Clearly, that is a well-targeted approach.
    As to teachers' pay, there is more local flexibility and a willingness to pay more on a higher-grade scale for skills that are in short supply—which is what every other employer has to do. The recruitment campaign is designed not only to improve the status of teaching with the slogan that we have chosen but to attract more recruits, as every
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    employer is now doing. Every employer is making the same approach. Those are the right ways of tackling the problem. Attendance at the various roadshows that we have run this year has also been very positive—75 per cent. up on last year.
    The response that we are receiving to that targeted programme demonstrates that teaching as a career is attractive. I want to go on and on making it more attractive, including the perception held by the public at large. It would make much more sense if the hon. Member for Blackburn joined me in saying that "Teaching brings out the best in people," as the slogan says, and that teaching as a career is on the up.
    That returns me to the remarks of the hon. Member for Blackburn, who never acknowledges the substantial achievements of recent years. Apart from the fact that the Labour party has nothing distinctive to say now about the great education reforms that we are carrying through, there are two fatal flaws in Labour's approach that undermine the hon. Gentleman's position. First, there is a clear policy distinction. The hon. Gentleman would abolish grant-maintained schools, city technology colleges and the assisted places scheme. That is because they give power and choice to parents. I warn the hon. Gentleman that he is making a big mistake. I suggest that he talks to parents, teachers and governors who pioneered the first grant-maintained schools and CTCs, and to pupils on the assisted places scheme who were given the opportunity and choice to which their parents want to contribute all that they can. If the hon. Gentleman does that, he will learn more about that which he is so anxious to destroy and how successful it all is.
    Secondly—and I make no apology for returning to this—I must ask what the hon. Gentleman's policy is on resources. The only attack that he could develop today was that the Government are not spending enough on education. On the previous occasion when we debated education issues, I challenged the hon. Gentleman to explain Labour's position on resources for teachers' pay. He said that Labour would allow either free negotiations between teachers and employers or a review body without any cash limit. The morning after that debate, I wrote to the hon. Gentleman asking him to clear up the confusion between his statement and the phrase "as resources allow". I have now received a reply:
    "Cash limits would apply in the normal way"—
    if it were a local authority negotiation—
    "or (if we inherited an interim advisory committee arrangement) as they do in respect of employees covered by Review Bodies."
    So there would be cash limits "as resources allow". Still the hon. Gentleman has not answered my question and that of my hon. Friends. Is he promising anything in terms of extra money? His is a bogus attack.
    The Government have a coherent policy for schools that is already achieving substantial results, and it will continue doing so. Standards will continue to rise. There will be greater diversity of schools, greater choice for parents, and the guarantee of a balanced curriculum for all pupils, with clear expectations of what they can achieve. That is why I urge the House to support the amendment.
    5.27 pm
    Mr. Martin Flannery: The Secretary of State appears to be benign, rubicund and charming, but the same old vicious policies emerge as were

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    embraced by his two predecessors. The Secretary of State says that there is no crisis. We chose the title of the debate, which we had to initiate because the Government never wants to debate education. We have to do that out of the small amount of time at our disposal, and today half an hour was pinched out of that, so it is again a very short debate.
    We chose the theme of the crisis in our schools, because there is a crisis, and we know that that theme would find a response throughout the country. We knew that it would, if I may dare to use a pun, ring a bell—especially among the teaching profession.
    As my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) correctly said, there is no crisis in your schools. The crisis is in our schools—in the state education system. You do not have a crisis. You have the money, and you send your kids to your schools. Most of you went to the same schools yourselves.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I hope that the hon. Member is not bringing me into his argument.
    Mr. Flannery: I thought, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that my remarks were absolutely accurate.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member keeps referring to me.
    Mr. Flannery: I meant to refer to Conservative Members, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is Conservative Members who send their children to their schools, and who then cut and cut money from the schools that our children attend.
    Hon. Members on both sides of the House spent almost 300 hours examining the Education Reform Bill. As I have said before, it is a deform Bill. It deforms the education system and everyone knows that it does. As the Act unfolds it becomes more desperate. The Minister says that he intends to recruit more teachers and has new methods of recruitment. He knows as well as I do that all he needs to do to recruit teachers is give them better conditions and wages and restore their negotiating rights. Britain is the only country that has withdrawn teachers' negotiating rights. We were condemned by the United Nations for doing that and so violating ordinary trade unionism.
    We have seen long years of attacks on the teaching profession led by successive Ministers. Lord Joseph, then Sir Keith Joseph, led the way with vicious attacks against the profession. He was followed by the right hon. Member for Mole Valley (Mr. Baker)—his constituency is aptly named—who is now chairman of the Conservative party. He launched deadly attacks all the way through. Teachers deeply resented those attacks which underestimated the teachers and, even more, undervalued their profession. They were hurt and they are bitter about it to this day. No matter what the Secretary of State says, the fact is that teachers have had to put up with attacks. Teachers were demeaned. Parents and other people were virtually asked by the Conservative party to undervalue and constantly attack the teaching profession.
    Now the Secretary of State praises teachers. He says that he talks to tons of teachers. A while ago we found that he never talked to anyone in his constituency. He talked only to people in other constituencies. He should talk to teachers. They would ask him why they have no
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    negotiating rights over their salaries. They would ask why there is a shortage of teachers not only in certain subjects but overall. They would ask him why the Select Committee issued an important report on teacher shortages, of which he seems to have taken no notice. The report was produced by not only Opposition Members but Conservative Members, who have a majority on the Committee. The Committee knew about the shortage of teachers and also knew that there was a crisis in that shortage.
    The Secretary of State knows about the local management of schools. Often it is mismanagement of schools. In our city of Sheffield no school has opted out, and none has in Leeds or Wakefield. The idea has been spread that lots of schools are opting out. Only 40 throughout the country out of the thousands of schools have opted out. Yet the Secretary of State says that it is popular. We can formulate our own conclusons based on—
    Mr. Batiste: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Flannery: No, I shall not give way. The hon. Gentleman must excuse me. I want to make a few points.
    The assisted places scheme has been mentioned. A great deal of money has been spent on it. The Government's expenditure plans show that when the assisted places scheme started in 1984–85 £22 million was provided for the scheme. In 1985–86 a total of £30 million was provided. In 1986–87 it was £38 million. In 1987–88 it was £46 million. The next year it was £51 million. The year after it was £59 million. That comes to £246 million of our money spent in private education that was taken away from the education of our children. In the next three years another £192 million is to be spent—£62 million, £60 million and £70 million. Added to the £246 million, that comes to £438 million.
    The city technology colleges scheme began with £1 million. Then the figure increased to £14 million and for this year it is £37 million. It is planned to increase it to £45 million, then £50 million and then drop to £40 million. That comes to £187 million, making a grand total, with the £438 million, of £625 million spent on CTCs and the assisted places scheme. That money was taken away from our children and put into private education. Schools near the CTCs suffer. The CTCs benefit from resources which should go to our schools.
    The Secretary of State talked about local management. We have had letters from schools all over our city of Sheffield saying that they will have to sack teachers. The Secretary of State knows that as well as I do. He gave figures to show how few teachers have gone. He knows as well as I do, as an experienced teacher, that he should count how many teachers have gone at the end of this term when they are not hired for next term.
    Many small schools have budgets which are £13,000 lower than last year. That is true of all primary schools. They will all have to sack teachers. Morale is lower than ever because teachers do not know who will be sacked. I have spoken to many of them. They are worried and miserable about whether they will be sacked, because they have already been told that somebody will be sacked. That is happening throughout the kingdom. The Secretary of State knows as well as I do that that is superimposed on the shortage of teachers which is implicit in the Select Committee's report. Those are the facts and they should be borne in mind.

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    Other features of the crisis in our schools are crumbling school buildings and endless bureaucracy. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn mentioned some of the documents that make up that bureaucracy which are sent round to teachers. Teachers have told us and the Conservative party that merely to carry those documents home at night and take them back to the classroom is a new chore. They have to read all those documents. Under the heading "Teachers" the chief inspector's report says:
    "If actually carrying out assessments, recording and reporting outcomes and accounting for what has been done do turn out to be overly prescriptive and inquisitiorial, not only will the quality of teaching and learning be adversely affected but the competence, professionalism and creativity of the teaching force may be undermined. Ultimately, the effective implementation of the Education Reform Act will depend upon the work of teachers who are trusted to use their pedagogical skills and experience in the interests of their pupils and the nation, with a minimum of external checks and balances, but who are properly accountable for what they do. Too much prescription and too detailed an external scrutiny of the work of teachers will lead to impossible workloads; bureaucratic inflexibility, and a de-skilled teaching force."
    Increased bureaucracy and the fear of being sacked are the fundamental reasons for low morale among teachers and in schools.
    We hear constant attacks on local education authorities. The LEAs are elected authorities which have existed for many years. They understand the problems of great cities. They are talked about as if they were villains of the piece by people who do not even send their children to LEA schools.
    Mr. John Butcher: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Flannery: Not just now.
    That criticism is hard on people who, with little or no pay and often voluntarily, devoted their lives to the education of our children for all these years. LEAs were not set up solely by the Labour party. They were supported by Tories of the past and Liberals of the past.
    Mr. Butcher: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Flannery: I am not giving way. If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, other people wish to speak and I want to put these points over.
    The Government have introduced testing at seven and then more testing at later stages. There is a lack of funds for schools. They attack LEAs. The Government attempt to persuade schools to opt out by giving them inducements. All those factors have caused teachers' morale to fall to its lowest ebb. It is not for nothing that my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn said that teachers are not mentioned in the Government's amendment to our motion. Their amendment is glorious and lyrical. As I said, it could be set to music. It has nothing to do with reality in our schools. It was thought up to fox people into believing that the Conservative party is doing something good for our children.
    Our people from Sheffield insist on coming down to London and meeting the five Labour Members and the one Tory Member who represent Sheffield constituencies in a room in the House and the Minister is invited to attend. At first, we planned to meet just one or two people, but then demands came from all over Sheffield. As the Minister probably knows, the local newspaper, the Star, which is a very powerful newspaper in South Yorkshire, is helping us because those running it believe that there is a
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    crisis in our schools. That is happening all over Britain. If the Minister does not know it, in heaven's name why is he the Minister? Everyone else knows it. If he can talk that crisis out of existence he had better get on with it.
    Practically all primary schools in Sheffield will be losing teachers. Parents are demanding to lobby the Minister and I am inviting him to meet them on 11 July to discuss some of those problems.
    Bureaucracy, form filling, testing and endless reports are hindering the education of our children. In the primary schools there is practically no non-contact time. Teachers have no time away from the children. They have meetings before school, after school and at lunchtime. They spend their time trying to take lessons and share out classes when teachers are away because they are so tired. Now, supply teachers are being used to fill permanent vacancies. The Government's answer is to scour Europe and other countries for teachers when we have about 100,000 teachers who are willing to return to teaching if they get a decent wage, negotiating rights, resources and schools that are not crumbling. More teachers are needed now. We need more money and more resources urgently.
    The hon. Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey), who has a fixed smile on his face, can go on smiling. There is a crisis and all the laughter and smiling will not stop it. Teachers need to be treated as professional people; wages and conditions must be improved, and crumbling schools must be repaired. The Conservative party should address those problems to achieve what we want for our children. Failure to do that will develop the present crisis into a catastrophe by the autumn term if something is not done. Never mind the Minister's lyrical concepts; the Government's failure to treat state education as an immediate priority will alienate more teachers and parents. The Government's amendment pretends that there is no crisis. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind the House of Mr. Speaker's earlier appeal for brief speeches.
    5.42 pm
    Mr. Malcolm Thornton: During our brief education debates, I sometimes wonder what those who spend their lives working in education, the parents of the children in our schools and the teachers who devote their efforts and show great commitment to our children will think when they read our debates. So much of what we hear is a sterile and weary repetition of party points which have little or nothing to do with the real problems which are recognised by many hon. Members. Those problems must be addressed seriously, responsibly and with planning and forethought.
    Everyone who knows anything about education knows that the leads and lags in the system are enormous, and long-term improvements have to be initiated some years beforehand. Equally, when standards have fallen and problems have arisen in the system, the roots of those problems can be found in decisions that were taken many years ago. Those who want to address the problems would do far better to learn from the lessons that history has taught us and to try to see where we went wrong so that we can avoid making the same mistakes in future. Personal attacks about where people send their children to school

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    have nothing to do with the debate. More than 90 per cent. of our children are and will continue to be educated in the state sector and we must all strive to ensure that the state sector is made as good as possible.
    I bitterly resent the sweeping statements about Conservative Members and their attitudes not only to their own children and generally. I am probably one of the few Members of Parliament who can claim day-to-day responsibility in a large educational unit. I have been chairman of the governors of one of the largest primary schools in the country for 16 years. It has been a pilot school for local management of schools: we have a large staff and large numbers of pupils. The school is in an area of social change and we have experienced many of the problems that are inherent in the education system. I am familiar with them and deal with them most weeks of the school year. This Friday, I shall be there looking at staff appointments, so I can claim some knowledge of the system and direct week-to-week contact with teachers.
    Mrs. Audrey Wise: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Thornton: I am sorry, but I must get on, as many other hon. Members wish to speak.
    One of the essential ingredients in our attitude toward educational reform must be common sense. So much of what we do in education concerns common sense. It does not involve party dogma, systems or listening to conflicting advice from expert after expert, by which politicians of all parties have been seduced on far too many occasions. All too often the teachers in the classroom can teach us what we need to do to provide the best education for our children.
    We hear a great deal about the problems created in LMS. Too much is owed to the vagaries of local authorities and what they are doing apart from their education policies which affect their overall expenditure.
    We should try to address the future while learning from the past and we should recognise certain essential facts. The Select Committee on Education, Science and Arts, to which the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) referred, recently produced a report. No one who served on the Select Committee would say or would expect me to say, as the Committee Chairman, that there are no problems in our schools. The hon. Gentleman mentioned non-contact time in primary schools. Wearing my school governor's hat, I can talk about those problems from personal experience. But that does not mean that the reforms should be written off or that the changes that we are trying to bring about will not result in an improvement.
    However, I would stress one matter to my right hon. Friend the Minister. Those reforms will be delivered only by ensuring that there are enough teachers to deliver them. We must recognise that there are not sufficient teachers in certain areas. I recognise that coverage is patchy and that there are subject shortages, but there is enough evidence to suggest that to make these essential, widely welcomed reforms work we must will the resources. To deny them is to deny the education system and our children the opportunities of building on the recognition that, for too many decades, the education drift has been allowed to go unchecked.
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    I said that much of what is said in these debates is sterile and pointless. There is agreement among people who care about education, about children and about the delivery of education that a well-qualified, well-remunerated and properly motivated teaching force is the way forward. If we can achieve that and stop the endless bickering about who was responsible for this, that or the other, we can make some progress. If people outside can see the House responding to genuine concerns, as it can and should, we will do education a great service indeed.
    5.51 pm
    Mr. Matthew Taylor: The debate is about the crisis in our schools. I believe that there is a crisis and that, above all, it is a crisis of morale among many teachers, if not all, because of their difficulties in implementing Government reforms which, whether they agree with them or not, they believe have been introduced at a pace beyond their ability to cope. Yet, at the same time, they must ensure that children receive the correct level of education and care.
    I am conducting a tour of schools in Cornwall, and visited three different schools only last Friday. It confirms that professionals working in the service—parents, pupils and councillors—are aware of the crisis but are astounded that the Government appear to believe that the solution is more bureaucracy, more gimmicky initiatives and more central control, whereas, in truth, more investment is desperately needed.
    That shows the difference of opinion between those who are directly involved and the Government. I do not want to get into a debate about whether or by how much the Government have increased investment, but I stress that the more teachers I talk to, the more anecdotes I can give the Secretary of State and hon. Members of the need for still more investment to meet the objectives laid down by the Government.
    It is extraordinary, given that the principle of the national curriculum has such widespread support, that the Government have managed to create a curriculum that has received such widespread criticism.
    There is much support for the principle of a national curriculum, and my party was the first to make a manifesto commitment to it. But the structure that the Government have fronted—I say "fronted" because I am not sure that it is entirely the Minister's fault that it has got out of control; it may have more to do with how the National Curriculum Council works—is far too extended and extensive and teachers are struggling to control it because it is far too prescriptive. We favour a national curriculum that offers a framework of educational aims and objectives, not one that lays down every dot and comma of what each teacher should be doing and ignores the principle that teachers should be trained to present skills in an individual way and that classrooms should not be treated as factories, where everybody must do everything the same way in a repetitive system.
    The opportunities for local variation and flexibility, which should be central to the national curriculum, have been squeezed out by the Government. The recent survey on reading skills has caused much concern. Whatever the background and the reasons for the fall-off in reading skills—I accept that the Secretary of State will want to know much more about it—the report makes it clear that it may have been caused by particular systems and styles

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    of teaching. If the Government get it wrong, squeezing everybody into the same straitjacket may lead to squeezing them into the same faults. My concern is that the national curriculum ignores the principle of diversity and choice as protection against everybody getting it wrong, even at the risk that some teachers may get it wrong some of the time.
    Mr. Harry Greenway: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that teachers should be allowed individuality in their teaching methods and approaches, but does he accept that it is not unreasonable to set common aims for teachers and children under the curriculum?
    Mr. Taylor: I agree. The problem is how much the aim is common and how it is defined. The curriculum and the testing system under it is so detailed that it does not allow teachers enough flexibility. They cannot afford the flexibility and time necessary to make it work.
    The reports of teachers I speak to—I speak to many—are precisely in those terms. That is the major criticism they make, whatever their original opinion of the national curriculum. They say that the learning process is being hindered by the detail and testing process in the national curriculum and that the normal good practice of teacher-parent dialogue gives parents more information about how their child is doing than do the raw results of testing.
    The Government claim that testing will lead to higher standards, but I fear that it may lead to lower standards. The British Dyslexia Association has advanced that argument on behalf of those about whom it is particularly concerned.
    Although it is good that testing of seven-year-olds has been restricted to only the core subjects, the bureaucracy of administering the tests means that there is a risk of insufficient attention being given to the foundation subjects. There is a danger that teachers will be forced to teach for tests, which will not stretch the most able but will brand many as failures at an early age. The regimentation of the standard assessment tasks diminishes the role of teachers and denies their professional judgment and diagnostic skills. The testing arrangements do little to determine the needs and ability of individual pupils, because administering them for a class of 30 childern is highly unlikely to leave time to use them for diagnostic purposes to help children overcome individual problems.
    The problem of stress among teachers cannot be ignored. Even if all the other factors that I have mentioned can be put right and teachers become used to the curriculum, the stress and the difficulties that teachers are under could gravely damage the pupils now experiencing the implementation of the process, precisely and simply because it is being pushed through so quickly.
    I and other Liberal Democrats believe that national testing before GCSE is inappropriate and that a more developed record of pupil achievement, involving not only the teaching staff but pupils and parents, would have been a better way forward. Ministers do not accept that position, but there is room for them to slow the pace of change in the classroom to allow the teachers to have a real chance of making testing effective for present and future pupils.
    The whole problem has been exacerbated by the morale of teachers, who are suffering from the burdens imposed on them. A major investment is needed not only in cash, but in time and care for those teachers and their
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    professionalism to combat the growing problem of teacher morale. The falling morale among teachers especially saddens me, yet the Government seem determined to ignore the difficulties that teachers are facing and to heap more and more work on to them.
    One head teacher in my constituency wrote:
    "The workload is becoming almost insurmountable for all of us—we will work for the sake of our pupils, but these excessive demands, lack of time and preparation to complete everything within government issued deadlines will result in the continued erosion of the teaching profession, and you will find that existing expertise, dedication and professionalism will recede."
    Another head teacher said:
    "I have a good many years left to give to education but my enthusiasm for teaching cannot go on indefinitely unless the Government provide significant additional resources to enable us to implement the National Curriculum in a professional manner."
    We recently debated in the House the Government's decision not to implement fully the award recommended by the teachers' pay review body. I said then that I had spoken to head teachers and other teachers who were leaving the profession in Cornwall. Cornwall is not an area in which it is especially difficult or unrewarding to teach; on the contrary, we have some of the best education in the country. I went home after that debate and on the Friday I visited another school. Blow me down, once again the head teacher said, confidentially, that he was giving up and taking early retirement because of the burdens that he faced. There is a real problem; it is not just make-believe. All of us who speak to teachers and head teachers find the same problem.
    Another issue which is less important, but which should not be ignored, is pay. Teachers have such commitment to their pupils that they are willing to work for lower salaries than they could obtain elsewhere. None the less, the way in which the comparable level of their salaries has been eroded is a direct sign to them that they are undervalued. In its report on teacher supply, the Select Committee on Education, Science and Arts said:
    "The government should implement the IAC's recommendations in full without delay."
    The Government are not doing that. The failure, year after year, to give teachers a fair deal over pay will do nothing to solve the morale problem or the supply crisis. The Government have a duty to establish a political climate in which the professional status and authority of teachers are held in high regard. The Government have failed even to try to do that. They have a duty to restore professionalism to the job.
    The Government should look again at the proposals from many quarters for the establishment of a general teaching council. That would be the clearest sign we could give that we see teachers as professionals in the community. I see that the hon. Member for Cornwall, South-East (Mr. Hicks) is in his place and I see that he agrees with that point. There is wide agreement among all parties in the House and outside that that is the way to go forward.
    Both the hon. Member for Cornwall, South-East and I have had Adjournment debates on the crisis of the quality of Cornish school buildings in which teachers have I o teach. That is on the record so the hon. Gentleman need not look too bashful. We know that in Cornwall we need to spend £100 million to bring the schools up to the level that the Government set in 1981 for schools to achieve by 1991. However, the county has been allowed to spend only

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    £6.522 million for 1990–91. It is simply impossible to reach the minimum standards that the Government say should be achieved. Will Ministers cut the standards? Will they review the standards that they believe are necessary for education, or will they accept the fact that for the indefinite future teachers will teach in surroundings that are inadequate by the Government's own standards? On the current levels of spending, we cannot meet those minimum standards. Ministers have repeatedly refused to put in the extra money necessary to meet the shortfall. I do not deny that some money is going in, but in Cornwall we can now offer only lower standards for the future.
    Time after time, the Government have been warned that the crisis in our schools is weekly becoming more acute. Rather than recognise the problems and listen to teachers, the Government are obsessed with gimmicky initiatives such as the assisted places scheme and the city technology colleges, which fail to tackle the real needs. They have also heaped further burdens on to an already stressed and devalued teaching profession by the bureaucracy of an over-prescriptive and underfunded national curriculum. All the evidence and experience of the past year shows that the Government reforms are causing chaos. It is imperative that Ministers think again, slow the pace of change and give the education service the priority and funding it deserves.
    The miracle is that, despite the pressures and lack of resources from which they have suffered, teachers are still doing a superb job in our schools. On that at least I agree with the Minister. Their commitment to their pupils and their schools is unwavering. If the Government showed only half that commitment to state education, a debate on the crisis in our schools would not be necessary.
    Between now and the general election—and afterwards—my party will make it clear that if improving our education system means spending more money and raising taxes, we shall not flinch from doing so because we believe that investment in our young people is a priority for which raising taxes should not be dodged if it is necessary. I feel sympathy for Labour Front-Bench Members who are not allowed to say that in this debate but who believe that as well. I hope that they can persuade their leadership to allow them to say it too as they approach the general election.
    6.6 pm
    Mr. James Pawsey: The real crisis in our schools would be the one that would occur if Labour Members ever won power. The House was not surprised to learn of the negative attitude displayed by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) because the whole of the Labour party's education policy is negative. Labour Members would abolish the grammar schools, the grant-maintained schools, the city technology colleges, the assisted places scheme and, as we have heard this afternoon, even the independent sector. The Labour party has become the party of abolition; Labour Members would even like to abolish choice itself. They want the uniform greyness of mediocrity.
    The Government remain committed to improving the quality and standards of the state education system in which the majority of our children are educated. I need hardly remind the House that in 1976 the then Prime
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    Minister, Lord Callaghan, called for "a great debate" and that is what he got. There was no action, but plenty of talk. The present Government have acknowledged that there are problems and have introduced, alongside other measures, the Education Reform Act 1988. The thrust of the Act was to restore choice to parents.
    We believe that parents are the best guardians of education. Most parents know best what is right for their children, so parents should be trusted and involved in the education process. The Labour party seeks to thrust the nation's children into one type of school—
    Mr. Nellist: Good schools.
    Mr. Pawsey: —irrespective of ability, preference or need. I hear Opposition Members endorsing that by saying "good".
    Mr. Nellist: I said, "Good schools".
    Mr. Pawsey: The hon. Member for Blackburn mentioned ambition. Indeed, the Labour party is ambitious; it is ambitious for itself. Labour Members want office and they are prepared to promise anything and to jettison anything if it means that there is a chance of their gaining power. The Labour party has also discovered standards and Labour Members talk about introducing an education standards council. I must remind them that that idea has been dismissed by the teachers' unions as a gimmick. Labour Members talk about a parent-school contract, but they forget that the present Government have already enshrined in law rights for parents. The Labour party is talking about introducing five-subject A-levels, which would undermine one of the accepted and established beacons of academic excellence.
    Conservative Members stand for choice, and more parental choice will ensure an improvement in standards. Parents naturally want the best for their children. In the independent sector, for example, as we have been repeatedly reminded by the hon. Member for Blackburn, parents are prepared to pay for choice, and to pay heavily. In the state sector, parents are willing to invest their time, their interest and their commitment.
    I believe that parents will be the great engine of educational change. The hon. Member for Blackburn criticised the introduction of grant-maintained schools. I believe firmly in grant-maintained schools and I am anxious that Ministers should drop the artificial 300-pupil threshold for entry. Let us see more schools, more smaller schools and more village schools applying for grant-maintained status.
    We should remember, however, that such reforms take time and that it is now only two years since the passing of the Education Reform Act 1988. Only now are we beginning to see the introduction of local management of schools and only now are the first grant-maintained schools beginning to emerge.
    Mrs. Wise: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr Pawsey: No. The hon. Lady must forgive me, but many of my hon. Friends wish to speak.
    The national curriculum is bound to encounter some teething troubles before it is accepted. But let no hon. Member doubt our commitment to improving the quality and standard of state education.
    On 7 June we debated teachers' pay and conditions. There is no doubt in my mind that the teaching profession

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    is no longer as attractive as it was 20 or 30 years ago. In those days, teachers were on a par with doctors and architects. That is no longer the case and much of the responsibility for that loss of esteem must lie on teachers' own shoulders. As I have said before, if they wish to be treated as professionals, they must act as professionals, and professionals do not march, demonstrate, strike or obstruct.
    Like my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, I believe that the vast majority of teachers in Britain are committed both to their profession and to the children in their charge. It is unfortunate that the efforts of the majority are undermined by the efforts of a militant left-wing minority. Anyone who doubts that has only to remember the appalling scenes that recently occurred at the teachers' conferences, where the general secretary of the National Union of Teachers was howled down by a militant left-wing mob of his own members. Teachers are to education what the house is to home. One cannot have one without the other, and I should like teachers to occupy once more their old and coveted position in society.
    There are problems in our schools, and some of them have their roots in increasing indiscipline. Indiscipline and an attendant lack of respect are increasingly to be found both in the home and at school. But it would be wrong for society to place all the responsibility for school problems on teachers' shoulders. Parents must understand that they have duties and responsibilities as well as rights and that they cannot abdicate them as soon as their children go through the school gates.
    Education is a partnership between parents and teachers. I am delighted to see my right hon. Friend the Member for Brent, North (Sir R. Boyson) in his place, because he has made just that point in many of our education debates. Too often the partnership between parent and teacher deteriorates into a casual association that takes place once a year. We need to restore respect for teachers, and respect must be earned. Boys of 13, 14 and 15 can be difficult and unpleasant—well able to turn a teacher's life into something of a nightmare. In such cases, firm discipline is required, and I fear that such discipline is missing from many of our state schools.
    Teaching is best achieved in a firm, disciplined framework, both at home and at school. When that framework is absent, chaos begins. We need to go back to some of the basics, both in teacher training and in the classroom. Over the past 25 years, teaching has suffered from too many experiments and too many theories—
    Mr. Robert Hicks: Hear, hear.
    Mr. Pawsey: I am delighted to have my hon. Friend's support.
    Too many proven methods have been scrapped, on the scantiest of evidence, for the new fashion of the day, and children's education has suffered as a result. But my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is not a fashionable man and he is not a theorist. What we need now is not more innovation but a period of consolidation. Under my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, that is what we will get—to the benefit of our children and to the benefit of the nation's schools.
    6.15 pm
    Mr. Win Griffiths: It has been a revelation and a source of amazement to me to hear hon. Members' deliberations on the state of our education system. One has only to visit half a dozen state schools to realise that everywhere disillusioned teachers are struggling to provide a good education for the children in their charge and finding that their task is made more difficult by the Government's action.
    In the past decade, we have suffered a cut in investment in the education service and in the future of our children. We spend less of our GDP on education today than we did under the Labour Government, and it is the under-resourcing of the service that is causing so many of the difficulties.
    What state can our education service be in when we read of parents being asked by school governors to lob in £50 apiece for teachers to be employed? Do we realise the depth of the crisis when we read that parents in Harpenden, that citadel of Conservatism, have set up Harpenden Parents Against Education Cuts because of the way in which local management of schools is working?
    Mrs. Wise: My hon. Friend referred to local management of schools. He may or may not be aware that, in the past day or two, chairmen of boards of governors have received letters from the National Association of Governors and Managers pointing out to them that, because of LMS, they now face a great risk of being sued for negligence, errors and omissions, and inviting them to take out insurance against such claims. Does my hon. Friend agree that that will create a crisis of confidence among school governors equal to that among teachers, and that it is greatly to be deplored?
    Mr. Griffiths: I had heard about that, although I had not seen the document until my hon. Friend produced it. It appears in any case to be another unthought of consequence of the Government's reforms that will cause great aggravation in the education system. They are already causing aggravation for teachers and that is why we have a growing crisis of teacher supply in the United Kingdom. The problem is particularly severe in inner London; indeed, in boroughs such as Southwark and Tower Hamlets it is a scandal. It is beyond belief that any Education Minister can stand at the Dispatch Box and not suggest positive solutions to the problem. It is a national scandal. The problem is steadily spreading its tentacles to other parts of the country.
    At one time, we were principally concerned about maths and science, but we now find that there is a shortage of skilled and qualified teachers of modern languages, design and technology, and music—half the subjects in the national curriculum. Is it any wonder that there is a crisis in our schools today? On DES teacher training targets, we are 27 per cent. short in maths, 23 per cent. short in physics, 16 per cent. short in modern languages, 42 per cent. short in chemistry, and 22 per cent. short in technology. There has been a failure to meet DES targets, and the problem will get much worse before it gets better. That failure can be seen in Wales, fabled for its teachers, where teachers are provided as if they were on a conveyor belt. In Wales, local authorities are experiencing difficulties in recruiting secondary school teachers, qualified Welsh language teachers, and science, maths and modern language teachers. They are lucky if one or two

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    people apply for such posts. The difficulties are to be found everywhere. Morale is low and the profession overburdened.
    The praise that the Government heap on teachers is rather like the praise that the generals heaped on the soldiers in the trenches in the first world war. It came from people who were strategically inept, had a poorly paid soldiery and were poorly equipped. That is why, in the past six months, the so-called "escape committee" has increased the number of people wanting to join from the profession from 700 to 3,000. Teachers are disillusioned because they are being asked to do too much too soon and too quickly, when their pay is too little too late and too slow—staged payments of a cash-limited pay award. There is worse to come.
    In my county, teachers will lose their jobs as about half of our primary and secondary schools have had savage reductions in their budgets because of formula funding and the LMS scheme, which the Welsh Office forced on my local authority of Mid Glamorgan. That has adversely affected our schools.
    LMS is not about giving parents and governors the chance to run their own show; it is about exposing schools to formula funding, which means that they will be closed. There is no doubt that small schools will close in the near future.
    On nursery education, poll tax-capped authorities will consider areas in which, at the moment, provision is non-statutory, so there will be cuts. It is salutary to think that poll tax-capped Labour authorities are among the best providers of nursery education. It is no coincidence that Tory education authorities are the worst providers of nursery education.
    Throughout the education system, teachers are struggling to provide a high-quality service, when virtually everything that the Government are doing is counter-productive. We have a legacy of crumbling schools, crumbling teacher morale, teacher shortages, teachers not being taught, classes without teachers in front of them, and change for the sake of change. Parent governors are thoroughly disillusioned and say that their meetings are about finance and not about education. They can foresee the day when they will ask not who is the best but who is the cheapest when they appoint teachers. That is our education service—the cheapest.
    6.25 pm
    Mr. Robert Hicks: I shall make just two general observations about the current position of education, based on my impressions in visiting schools and talking to parents, teachers and governors, and certainly not from the point of view of an expert. I shall also raise one specific requirement for Cornwall.
    First, as has been mentioned, there is no denying that our primary and secondary schools have been subjected to a period of significant change, not least because of the provisions of the Education Reform Act 1988. I have no objection to the majority of the measures. Indeed, I warmly welcomed the introduction of the concept of a national curriculum and local school management. Of course there will be teething problems and certain genuine difficulties, and they will all require careful consideration. It cannot be denied, however, that the changes have meant
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    extra responsibilities and an increased work load for teachers, parents and children. That fact must be recognised by all of us who are anxious in the widest sense for the future education of our children.
    The scheduled time scale for the changes has always worried me. The rate of change demanded of teachers and children alike has been onerous. Furthermore, as a direct consequence of the time scale requirement, the necessary advice, information and procedures to be adopted have not always been available to schools. That has undoubtedly caused additional anxieties. That is why we now need a period of consolidation—indeed, tranquility—in our schools. As legislators, we owe that at least to our teachers and children.
    Fortunately, there is evidence that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State understands that requirement. His remarks about assessment today confirm that impression. Consolidation does not mean weakening or losing the basic objectives that we seek, or even the momentum that is essential to implement the changes. Common sense dictates that consolidation is required to maximise the effects of the changes.
    My second general point is about teachers. I mean no offence, but we all know that a small minority of teachers, or perhaps their representatives, are a nuisance to the teaching profession. They do untold damage to the teachers' cause. I ask Ministers and colleagues to recognise that the great majority of teachers are hard-working, committed and anxious to provide the best possible standard of education for our children.
    I hope that the independent negotiating machinery to determine teachers' salaries and conditions, whether it takes the form of a teachers' council or some other form, will soon be restored. Certainly we have been given some firm promises on that by my right hon. Friend. It is essential that the new framework provides the necessary ability to restore the morale of teachers. It is essential for public confidence that we are perceived as a Government who recognise the crucial work undertaken by teachers, as demonstrated by the establishment of the new framework.
    Two years ago, almost to the day, I had an Adjournment debate on the county of Cornwall's school building requirements. Since local education authorities will soon be finalising their applications to the Department for next year's financial allocations, I want to use this opportunity to emphasise the need for Cornwall to receive a meaningful capital allocation to sustain a rolling programme of new school building, accommodate the rising number of pupils and bring about the replacement and improvement of existing school stock.
    I remind the Minister that there are 33 secondary schools in Cornwall and nine, including Liskeard in my constituency, still occupy split sites. In 1973 I took a delegation to see the Secretary of State for Education, now my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, on behalf of the Liskeard school. We are still waiting for results.
    Mr. Ken Eastham: Promises, promises.
    Mr. Hicks: It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to say that, but I remind Opposition Members about the delegations that one took to see their education Ministers: their promises were not delivered either.
    I want my right hon. Friend to ensure that sufficient allocation is made so that we can make the maximum use

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    of scarce financial and human resources. The problems caused by split-site schools do not allow for the maximum use of those resources.
    In 1992 Cornwall's primary school population will exceed 40,000 pupils—the highest figure ever achieved. Undoubtedly that will exacerbate an already difficult situation. Our chief education officer estimates that there are some 50 projects that would merit urgent priority if sufficient funds were available. He also estimates that 50 per cent. of those projects can be classified as major—costing more than £200,000.
    Our county has always been a modest-spending area and it does its best to top up the Department's allocation. This year the county will spend £14 million thanks to the use of capital receipts and reserves, compared with the Department's allocation of £6.5 million. Last year the corresponding figures were £8.9 million and £6.1 million. Each year the council's education committee faces an almost impossible task—some might say that it is invidious—in determining priorities. I have not mentioned the new building regulation requirements that could add a further £70 million to our financial needs.
    Mr. David Harris: Apart from the problem of split-site schools, does my hon. Friend agree that the tremendous legacy of old schools from the Victorian era, particularly in our villages, means that it is necessary to get on top of that problem once and for all?
    Mr. Hicks: My final remark answers the point that my hon. Friend has rightly raised. The current building requirements in Cornwall are the price we have had to pay for the relative lack of activity in that regard in the 1950s and 1960s. That does not absolve us, however, from our responsibilities to our children in the 1990s.
    6.34 pm
    Mr. Dave Nellist: The debate coincides with an article in The House Magazine by the Secretary of State for Education. The Secretary of State begins his contribution by describing his aims as follows:
    "To encourage all children to achieve the highest level of their different abilities and discover and develop their own particular talents, thereby acquiring the wide range of skills and abilities they will need to deal with the many and diverse challenges which lie ahead."
    If that was true, there would be no difference between us and we would happily agree on the definition of what education should provide for our children. However, there is no consensus between us, for three reasons.
    The first is on philosophical grounds. The Government aim to create an education system that is designed not to develop the potential of each child, but to fit this generation of children to the short-term needs of their friends in business. That is what LMS and city technology colleges are all about: they are aimed at creating a generation of managers and technicians to run industry and commerce in the future. In recent years the privatisation and the orientation of education towards the needs of business have been the Government's themes.
    Secondly, if what the right hon. Gentleman said was true, we would have a well-paid and well-motivated teaching profession, enjoying high morale. We have exactly the opposite. That profession is suffering a haemorrhage. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) has shown me an article which says that six out of seven primary school teachers in
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    one school in Lambeth intend to leave that school in the next three weeks. Come September there will be one teacher for those children.
    Thirdly, there is no consensus between us because of the way in which the Government have dealt with the needs of local authorities to repair, renovate and even maintain the fabric of the schools in which our children are taught. The hon. Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey), who comes from my part of the country, spoke about standards, grey uniformity and choice.
    One part of the national curriculum relates to the teaching of computers—it is covered by the information technology section. I have a photograph from my local paper, the Coventry Evening Telegraph, that shows children of the Chace primary school in Willenhall, in my constituency, being taught computing in toilets. After 11 years of a Tory Government children are being taught in the loo. How can those children be assessed on their ability to absorb in those conditions? The photograph could not show the open drains, nor pass on the smell that will come with hot weather. How are teachers supposed to inculcate in those children the sense of wonder and awareness of the world when they are sitting in a toilet learning about computers? "Our Crumbling Schools" is not just the title of an article in that local newspaper or a campaign of the Labour party, but reality for children in the city of Coventry and elsewhere.
    In the past three years my local authority has bid for £11.8 million, £16 million and £12.4 million from the Department of Education and Science for essential repairs. If those repairs are not carried out, it will severely impair the ability of teachers to deliver good quality education and, as a result, morale will go down.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) has already mentioned a school in Nuneaton, of which the Minister will be aware, where children have caught hepatitis A because there is no soap in the toilets and the paper towels have been cut in half. The north Warwickshire district medical officer said of the outbreak:
    "Financial cuts in education, where children are only allowed half a paper towel, no adequate soap and no, or poor quality, toilet paper made the problem more difficult."
    The savage cuts in, and under-provision for, education are now to be exacerbated by poll tax capping. More than £200 million has been cut from the education spending allocation in the 20 authorities affected. In the past three years Coventry has bid for about £40 million—we were allocated £10.6 million. Last year we were awarded;£1.96 million—15 per cent. of what the council bid for. It was the lowest allocation to any council in the west midlands; and of the 109 education authorities in England and Wales, only 14 are worse off than Coventry.
    I was talking to parents in my constituency, and to governors of Chace primary school at Willenhall, over the weekend. The toilets, where computer studies classes take place, are out of date and smelly. When it rains, teachers have to put up with puddles inches from the computer terminals. The rain also comes into the school on to the carpeted areas where children are supposed to sit and listen to stories. The female staff toilet is now a store room for computer and games equipment and the caretaker's room is a storage area for science equipment. The library, where remedial teaching takes place for those with difficulty in learning how to read, consists of half the main hall. There is a curtain down the middle of the hall and physical education classes are conducted in the other half.

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    It is hard to imagine how somebody like the elderly lady I spoke to the other night, who is a volunteer, going into that school to help with remedial teaching, manages to teach in half a school hall, separated from the PE class by a curtain.
    Her Majesty's inspectorate is worried about Chace primary school, which is one of numerous crumbling schools in our cities. It is not one of the schools visited by the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Howarth), the Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science, when he came to Coventry. He and other hon. Members from my area know that we are not talking about a left-wing authority or a city council that has ever disobeyed a single Government instruction during the past 11 years. It has never been anywhere near being rate or poll tax capped.
    The local paper has provided the Under-Secretary of State with a dossier of what is going on in Coventry. What is he going to do about it? How do the Government decide on allocations that leave schools in Coventry lacking such facilities? Why is Coventry the area with the lowest budget in the west midlands and the 15th lowest in the country? How are such positions reviewed? How can we get the money this year so that bairns of five, six or seven years old in such schools in Coventry may have decent facilities in which to be taught this year? That is what the debate is all about for me. Those are the most important years in a bairn's life. It is when the mind blossoms and awareness develops.
    I am proud and lucky. I have four healthy bairns growing up and being educated in Coventry. However, in Coventry there are parents with children at schools in which, according to the local newspaper survey, the stench from decaying toilets causes regular outbreaks of sore throats and stomach bugs. How are kids supposed to learn in such conditions? It does not happen in Harrow, Eton, Marlborough or Charterhouse and the private schools that I have visited as a speaker, where the walls are panelled in oak, as are the walls of this place.
    The average spent on children's education in this country is just over £1,900 per child. In Avon, a poll-tax-capped authority, the figure is £1,870. The Government spend money on their assisted places schemes to send kids to the private school of Charterhouse. They spend £7,200 per child, four times what they say is too much to spend on our kids in state education. That is why an HMI report this January stated that one third of secondary schools, in which 1 million children are taught, have accommodation so unsuitable that the quality of the children's education was being "adversely affected".
    This year, Coventry asked for £12.2 million. We were allowed—note the word "allowed" to spend £1.96 million. But the Government are spending £7.65 million—four times that amount—on one city technology college in Nottingham. It is not that the Government do not have the money; they are hypocritical. We have a Government education team that does not care about the 95 per cent. of children in the state education sector. Why not?
    The reason the education team do not care is that the Government are at present engaged in precisely the same pre-privatisation rundown that has occurred in every nationalised industry prior to privatisation during the 11 years of this Government. It is a simple exercise designed
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    to make the product—the Government call it a product—the education system, unworkable and unpopular among parents so that they cry out for privatised control. That is not yet working. The Secretary of State has offered parents of this country an opportunity to opt out, but out of 4,257 secondary schools in England and Wales, only 40—less than 1 per cent.—have asked to go private, and not a single primary school has done so.
    During their period in office, the Government have cut the proportion of public spending on education and science, and increased money for private schools. They have closed 1,575 primary schools and 312 secondary schools, and opened a handful of elite city technology colleges. They have cut back expenditure on text books, and put up the price of school meals; and, according to The Times Educational Supplement last Friday, there has been a 3.2 per cent. fall in the average reading ability of seven-year-olds. Millions of ordinary families cannot get nursery education or care, which would not only be good for the children, but would open opportunities for parents, particularly women. Only one quarter of the three and four-year-olds in this country receive any form of nursery education.
    Education should be about a lifetime for people to go in and out of education as they need it. But it is not. There are few nurseries for our bairns to attend, and colleges, polytechnics and universities, where grants have been cut by one quarter, then frozen and—if the regulations are passed—from this summer, even benefits will be taken away from students. When dealing with our children's education, the Government cut funds, but when dealing with their children's education, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hillsborough said, they are prepared to spend an extra £0.5 billion on assisted places.
    Socialists believe that education is a right. The Government believe in privilege. As soon as we get rid of the Government and have a decent, socialist Government, we can once again make education the right that it should be.
    6.46 pm
    Mr. Derek Fatchett: This debate is about the crisis in our education system. The view that there is a crisis is held by parents and teachers throughout the country. A striking factor in the debate was the utter complacency of the Secretary of State. The way in which he described our education system and the activities taking place in our schools would not be instantly recognisable by teachers and parents. That shows the great divide, the gulf, that exists between the Government and the teachers and parents of this country.
    I suspect that there is one point on which we can agree with the Secretary of State, but he comes to that position with a record behind him. He has, to use the criminal jargon, some form. Nevertheless, we welcome the fact that he now holds a slightly different view. He told us that teachers were a key resource and we had failed to sing their praises. He should go back and read all the education debates during the past few years because he would then realise that Labour spokesmen, on each and every occasion, have sung the praises of teachers and recognised the tasks and burdens carried by them.
    The Secretary of State now says that teachers are doing a good job. This is where his form is relevant because it is this Secretary of State's Government who have done so

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    much to undermine the morale of teachers throughout the country. The Secretary of State's Government—we must remind ourselves of this, because it is an essential part of the current malaise in schools—took away from teachers the basic human right to bargain and negotiate freely with their employers. The Secretary of State's Government took every available opportunity in the House and outside to denigrate teachers' professionalism. That reached its height in the middle of the last decade and has had a remarkable impact on morale. The Secretary of State's Government have, on every possible occasion, refused to work with teachers and go with the grain of teachers' professionalism in developing the systems of both testing and the national curriculum.
    The hon. Members for Crosby (Mr. Thornton) and for Truro (Mr. Taylor) said that there was a need for a general teaching council. We echo those views because we believe in teachers' professionalism, and have been saying so for some time. We welcome the Secretary of State as a partial convert, but he has a long record to get rid of before he becomes a true convert.
    A key element of the debate involves resources. The picture painted by the Secretary of State was that all was well in our schools and there was no problem. When my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Ms. Harman) asked about schools in Southwark, he had a simple response. He said that the Government did not generalise, Southwark had its own peculiar problems and so we could not argue about teacher shortages there. I wish that the Secretary of State would put that argument to the parents of those children in Southwark, who do not know whether they will have teachers in the classroom this autumn. Why does he not go down to the east end of London and visit the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore), and talk to the parents of the 300 children in Tower Hamlets who still do not have a school place because of the teacher shortages?
    Mr. Peter Shore: My hon. Friend rightly referred to the national scandal that more than 300 children are now out of school who have the right to education in our school system. Is he aware that, exactly a year ago, I took a deputation to the Secretary of State's predecessor to explain to him in detail the problems and the shortages, and that nothing has happened since? Will he join me in pressing the Minister to give an immediate, serious pledge and guarantee that a target date and timetable will be set, at the end of which my constituents' children will have the right to the proper state education that is guaranteed for all children in this country?
    Mr. Fatchett: My right hon. Friend has made a powerful intervention. Certainly I join him in asking the Secretary of State whether he is prepared to make that timetable commitment. We noticed earlier that he was not prepared to give parents a commitment about the availability of a teacher in every classroom this autumn; will he now give a commitment to the parents of Tower Hamlets, and to the 300 children who have no teachers? I shall give way if he wishes me to, but once again the House and my right hon. Friend will notice that he has no interest in these matters, and is not prepared to give any commitment.[Interruption.] I repeat that, if the Secretary of State wants to make the commitment, I shall give way—but, by pointing a finger, the Secretary of State suggests
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    that the Minister of State will do it. We look forward to that, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend will want to intervene.
    The argument about resources was not addressed by the Secretary of State. We all know why he was appointed. The previous Secretary of State was full of ideas, none of which as we all know, and as the Conservative party regrets—worked effectively in practice. This Secretary of State was appointed to do the Prime Minister's bidding. While he is doing that, he himself is never bidding for education, or for resources for the education system.
    Let us have a look at what the present Secretary of State has agreed to. He has agreed to standard spending assessments for education: if they had been followed by local education authorities, that would have meant a £1.4 billion cut. That is how hard the right hon. Gentleman fought for education. He said that my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) was wrong to compare levels of expenditure in the maintained sector and on the assisted places scheme. However, he is never prepared to argue for the children in rate-capped authorities who, halfway through the school year, will have their educational resources cut. Where has the Secretary of State been? He has simply rolled over for the Treasury and the Prime Minister.
    This afternoon, the Secretary of State made a major announcement. The nub of his speech—his pot of gold—was the amount of money that he had for the system. He said that he was announcing expenditure for 1991–92 of £364 million, through the educational support grant system. I thought that he was being generous to the education system, so I went to the Library and examined the figures for this year's expenditure. They come to £357.7 million. The right hon. Gentleman has therefore announced an increase of £6.3 million—or 2 per cent.—when inflation is running at nearly 10 per cent. As always, he has announced a cut in real terms. Again, if he wishes to intervene I shall gladly give way.
    This is the Secretary of State who tries to give the impression that he argues with his ministerial colleagues on behalf of education. Hon. Members who heard his opening contribution will remember that he said that he had argued for the success of TVEI and for additional resources. Where was he when the 22 authorities embarking on TVEI had their expenditure reduced by 50 per cent? Was he knocking on the door of the Department of Employment, saying that it was crucial education expenditure? We have not heard a squeak from the Secretary of State: yet again he has failed to stand up for the education system, and for what is good in it.
    Against that background of a lack of resources, we must make another criticism of the Government's record. It concerns the confusion and lack of clarity in their thinking. With the complacency that was characteristic of his speech, the Secretary of State said that there were no problems with the local management of schools. Obviously, neither he nor any of his hon. Friends has been to any of the schools that my hon. Friends and I have visited, and talked to teachers, governors and parents. If they had, they would know that there are massive problems, and that schools are finding it increasingly difficult to meet their budgets. The Secretary of State knows that the Coopers and Lybrand report warned him that local management of schools could work effectively only if there were adequate resources in the system. Those resources are not available.

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    There is also confusion about testing and the national curriculum. In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph at Easter, the Prime Minister said that she had never expected the national curriculum to work out as it had. That is typical of the Prime Minister: it is abundantly clear that she does not lead her own Government when there are any difficulties. However, she has one advantage over the Secretary of State: I suspect that he still has no idea how the national curriculum will work out in practice.
    There is a problem in every school in the country. Teachers are being bombarded by material without any sense of direction and purpose from the centre. On top of that, children are to be tested at the age of seven. There seems to be a difference of opinion between Ministers on that point. The Minister of State—who may be making a valedictory speech in a few minutes—said, in an interview with the Today newspaper a few weeks ago, that testing was being piloted and that no decisions were being taken, although she did seem to favour a rigorous, detailed system. Last Friday I was delighted to see the Under-Secretary of State in Leeds. I suspect that, if the newspaper reports are correct, he is the only junior Minister in his Department who can be confident about his future. He said that testing was to be slimmed down. Whose version is the reality? Which is the Government's version? Is it the Minister of State's version, or the Under-Secretary's? Why do we not hear a word from the Secretary of State? The reality is that teachers do not know what is expected of them in the autumn of next year.
    Our indictment against the Government is a powerful one. It is about resources, confusion, drift and a lack of leadership. Any country that wants to build for the future realises that education is the investment for the future: investment in education today is the guarantee of economic success tomorrow. That is recognised by the French and the Germans and by people in the developing countries of south-east Asia. It is recognised by all economically successful countries. The only people who fail to recognise the importance of education are the Government and their Education Ministers. The clear message is that we need a change of education policies and a Labour Government to safeguard the future and our children.
    7 pm
    The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mrs. Angela Rumbold): The substance of the debate, couched in terms of an Opposition motion that does nothing to value teachers' efforts or to encourage parents and children, should have given the Opposition an opportunity to outline some new policies. However, not one Opposition Member has offered a concrete suggestion that would lead to any change for the better. They said that the most important anouncement by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on education support grants and education authority training grants was rubbish.
    Without exception, Opposition Members have dwelt on their determination to put the clock back. They say with pride that history will repeat itself. They would diminish parental choice, as they did before, by the abolition of the direct grant schools which many of them were privileged to attend. They would threaten local education authority maintained grammar schools, the very schools which
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    provided education for children whatever their background and parentage. They would undermine the reforms that have been broadly welcomed by schools and parents alike. The hopes that schools and what is taught in them would take the direction that many teachers have been looking for for years would be dashed.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Thornton) was right to condemn Opposition rhetoric. He was also right to emphasise that time is necessary to repair the damage that has been done over years to the education system, and right to dash the assumption that only socialists send their children to state schools. That is a disgraceful assumption, and it is absolutely untrue. It is in the interests of all hon. Members to strive for excellence in every school.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Crosby spoke about the local management of schools and said that local authorities themselves must be given the opportunity and urged to deliver to the schools the most that they can. The only way to ensure that our reforms work is to allow schools to govern themselves and use the resources that are available to them. He said that we must ensure a sufficiency of teachers for the system. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has done that by properly addressing the problem with great urgency and giving it high priority.
    The hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) made an interesting point on the national curriculum. I am glad to know that he is in favour of the concept of the national curriculum but sad to learn that he has not troubled to study the way in which it is being introduced to our system. There is much flexibility. Much of the national curriculum produced by the working group is on the established principles and methodology that teachers have been using for years. The curriculum draws together into a coherent programme study and syllabuses for children throughout the years that they are at school from the age of five to 16. It certainly enables teachers to use their skills and their own style of teaching. Those who seek to slow the pace of reform simply wish to prevent the children of this generation from benefiting from our reforms.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey) was right to point to the uniform mediocrity of a blanket system. He was also right to draw attention to the measures that successive Conservative Governments have introduced. Parents are the key to improvement, and if they are allowed to choose what they want for their children they will choose academic standards.
    I direct the attention of the Opposition to an Islington school that has recently had a change of head teacher. It is in one of the inner-London areas that we have heard about in the debate. Parents are flocking to that school to which the head teacher has introduced old-fashioned ideas of academic standards, uniform, and good behaviour. [Interruption.]
    Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd): Order. There are many meetings going on in the Chamber. The hon. Lady deserves to be heard.
    Mrs. Rumbold: That boys' school in Holloway deserves to be seen as a model for parents who are considering what kind of school to choose for their children. I was delighted to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby and Kenilworth supporting the grant maintained schools.

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    The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths) rather mischievously misunderstood the principles of local management of schools. The Welsh Office does not deliver the formula for such management. The county sets the formula and delivers the money to the schools. The hon. Member for Bridgend should be sure of his facts before he makes mischievous statements to the House and to the wider world.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Cornwall, South-East (Mr. Hicks) will be glad to know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State recognises the importance of allowing schools to have lighter burdens within the reforms. He accepts that in the schools and for teachers there must be a lightening of the burden. We also recognise that our teachers are professionals. They can be sure that the Government are committed to the return of their negotiating rights as and when agreements have been reached.
    I have visited a number of schools in inner London. I admit that I have not been to schools in Southwark, but I have certainly visited Hackney, Camden and Tower Hamlets. The right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) does a great disservice to the elected members and the director of education in Tower Hamlets who have been working ceaselessly to ensure that they will have sufficient teachers.
    Mr. Shore: It will not do to pretend that I am blaming my local education authority. I am not. It is doing its best, as ILEA did before it. The real trouble is that the Government have not backed the authority's efforts and given it the resources to take children off the streets and into the schools so that they can receive the education not only that they deserve but to which they have an absolute right.
    Mrs. Rumbold: The Government have recognised exactly that problem by making quite sure that authorities have a substantial capital allocation for rebuilding schools and building new ones.
    Mr. Fatchett: Will the hon. Lady give way?
    Mrs. Rumbold: No, I will not give way to listen to a catalogue of disaster. There is no truth in the Opposition's charges. A bird's eye view of what a future Labour Government would do as resources allowed shows that they would return everything to where it was 11 years ago, and that will cause nothing but damage. By contrast, during the last decade the Government have striven to meet the needs of children of all abilities. Apart from the reforms of the Education Reform Act 1988, our policies have enabled more children to stay on at school after GCSE and more people are going to university.
    We are not in the least bit complacent. We shall continue to pursue policies that will free our schools and our children from the stranglehold of bureaucracy. They will allow choice for parents and freedom for professional teachers to do their job in the way that they think best. Most important, our policies guarantee that children will receive a high quality, broad and balanced education. I urge the House to support the amendment.
    Mr. Nellist: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. By leave of the House, I should like to ask the Minister to respond to the questions that I put to her.
    Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I have heard the hon. Gentleman's point, and it is not a point of order.
    Mr. Nellist: On a point of order.
    Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has already spoken. If he has a point of order, it should be addressed to the Chair and not to the Minister.
    Mr. Nellist: In this sort of debate, Madam Deputy Speaker, as the Clerk in front of you will no doubt confirm, if I use the phrase, "with the leave of the House" —as has been done in other circumstances—I am allowed to speak a second time. That is what I am trying to do.
    Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I am giving the guidelines to the hon. Member. If he asks for the leave of the House, only one voice has to be raised in opposition for it to be refused. If the hon. Member is asking for the leave of the House, I must put it to the House.
    Mr. Nellist: With the leave of the House—
    Hon. Members: No.
    Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. There can be no further point of order about the leave of the House.
    Mr. Nellist: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
    Madam Deputy Speaker: Is it a new point of order?
    Mr. Nellist: Yes.
    Madam Deputy Speaker: In that case I must hear it.
    Mr. Nellist: Following your ruling, which I accept, Madam Deputy Speaker, if the Minister asks, with the leave of the House, to speak again, will it be in order for her to answer the questions that I put to her, because I am the only hon. Member whom she has not answered?
    Madam Deputy Speaker: That is very hypothetical. Question put, That the original words stand part of the Question:—
    The House divided: Ayes 214, Noes 287.

    Division No. 281]

    [7.10 pm

    AYES

    Abbott, Ms Diane

    Caborn, Richard

    Adams, Allen (Paisley N)

    Callaghan, Jim

    Allen, Graham

    Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

    Alton, David

    Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

    Anderson, Donald

    Campbell-Savours, D. N.

    Archer, Rt Hon Peter

    Canavan, Dennis

    Armstrong, Hilary

    Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

    Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

    Carr, Michael

    Ashton, Joe

    Cartwright, John

    Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

    Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

    Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

    Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

    Beckett, Margaret

    Clay, Bob

    Beith, A. J.

    Clelland, David

    Bell, Stuart

    Clwyd, Mrs Ann

    Benn, Rt Hon Tony

    Cohen, Harry

    Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

    Coleman, Donald

    Bermingham, Gerald

    Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

    Bidwell, Sydney

    Cook, Robin (Livingston)

    Blair, Tony

    Corbett, Robin

    Blunkett, David

    Corbyn, Jeremy

    Boateng, Paul

    Cousins, Jim

    Boyes, Roland

    Cox, Tom

    Bradley, Keith

    Crowther, Stan

    Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

    Cryer, Bob

    Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

    Cummings, John

    Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

    Cunliffe, Lawrence

    Buckley, George J.

    Cunningham, Dr John

    915

    Dalyell, Tam

    Mahon, Mrs Alice

    Darling, Alistair

    Marek, Dr John

    Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

    Marshall, David (Shettleston)

    Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

    Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

    Dewar, Donald

    Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

    Dixon, Don

    Martlew, Eric

    Dobson, Frank

    Maxton, John

    Doran, Frank

    Meacher, Michael

    Dunnachie, Jimmy

    Meale, Alan

    Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

    Michael, Alun

    Eastham, Ken

    Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

    Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E)

    Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

    Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)

    Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

    Fatchett, Derek

    Moonie, Dr Lewis

    Faulds, Andrew

    Morgan, Rhodri

    Fearn, Ronald

    Morley, Elliot

    Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

    Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

    Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)

    Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

    Flannery, Martin

    Mowlam, Marjorie

    Flynn, Paul

    Mullin, Chris

    Foot, Rt Hon Michael

    Murphy, Paul

    Foster, Derek

    Nellist, Dave

    Foulkes, George

    Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

    Fraser, John

    O'Brien, William

    Fyfe, Maria

    O'Neill, Martin

    Galbraith, Sam

    Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

    Galloway, George

    Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

    Garrett, John (Norwich South)

    Parry, Robert

    George, Bruce

    Patchett, Terry

    Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

    Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

    Godman, Dr Norman A.

    Prescott, John

    Gould, Bryan

    Primarolo, Dawn

    Graham, Thomas

    Quin, Ms Joyce

    Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

    Radice, Giles

    Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

    Randall, Stuart

    Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

    Redmond, Martin

    Grocott, Bruce

    Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn

    Harman, Ms Harriet

    Reid, Dr John

    Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

    Richardson, Jo

    Haynes, Frank

    Robinson, Geoffrey

    Heal, Mrs Sylvia

    Rogers, Allan

    Healey, Rt Hon Denis

    Rooker, Jeff

    Henderson, Doug

    Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

    Hinchliffe, David

    Rowlands, Ted

    Hoey, Ms Kate (Vauxhall)

    Ruddock, Joan

    Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

    Salmond, Alex

    Home Robertson, John

    Sedgemore, Brian

    Hood, Jimmy

    Sheerman, Barry

    Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

    Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

    Howells, Geraint

    Shore, Rt Hon Peter

    Hoyle, Doug

    Short, Clare

    Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

    Skinner, Dennis

    Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

    Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

    Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

    Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)

    Illsley, Eric

    Smith, Rt Hon J. (Monk'ds E)

    Janner, Greville

    Smith, J. P. (Vale of Glam)

    Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

    Snape, Peter

    Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

    Soley, Clive

    Kennedy, Charles

    Spearing, Nigel

    Kilfedder, James

    Stott, Roger

    Lambie, David

    Strang, Gavin

    Lamond, James

    Straw, Jack

    Leadbitter, Ted

    Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

    Leighton, Ron

    Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

    Lestor, Joan (Eccles)

    Trimble, David

    Lewis, Terry

    Turner, Dennis

    Litherland, Robert

    Vaz, Keith

    Livsey, Richard

    Wallace, James

    Lofthouse, Geoffrey

    Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

    Loyden, Eddie

    Wareing, Robert N.

    McAllion, John

    Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)

    McAvoy, Thomas

    Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)

    McCartney, Ian

    Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)

    McFall, John

    Williams, Rt Hon Alan

    McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

    Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)

    McKelvey, William

    Wilson, Brian

    McLeish, Henry

    Winnick, David

    McNamara, Kevin

    Wise, Mrs Audrey

    McWilliam, John

    Worthington, Tony

    916

    Wray, Jimmy

    Tellers for the Ayes:

    Young, David (Bolton SE)

    Mr. Martyn Jones and

    Mrs. Llin Golding.

    Question accordingly negatived.
    Question, That the proposed words be there added, put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 30 (Questions on amendments), and agreed to.
    MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER forthwith declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to.
    Resolved,
    That this House congratulates the Government on its programme for securing further lasting improvements in standards in schools through its policies for the national curriculum, assessment and testing, increased parental choice, and greater autonomy for schools; notes increased recurrent and capital expenditure since 1979 in real terms per pupil of 40 per cent. and 13 per cent., respectively; notes widespread public support for the Government's reforms and welcomes the significant increase in staying on rates among 16 and 17-year-olds in the last two years and in the numbers going on to higher education which show the success of the Government's policies; and contrasts this inspiring programme with the failure of the Opposition to produce alternative proposals offering similar leadership for the nation's young.

    Housing
    Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd): Mr. Speaker has selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister.
    7.23 pm
    Mr. Bryan Gould: I beg to move,
    That this House condemns the Government's incompetence and indifference in the face of the mounting housing crisis which is evident from growing homelessness, soaring mortgage costs and rents and the lack of affordable accommodation in urban and rural areas of Britain; and notes the failure of the Government's chosen instruments, as evidenced by the financial crisis of the Housing Corporation which is undermining Housing Associations, and the failure of the Housing Act 1988 to achieve its targets on Housing Action Trusts, Tenants' Choice and Assured Tenancies.
    Homelessness and unmet housing need may not directly affect as many as are affected by the problems of the national health service or the education service, but the scale of those problems means that homelessness and the housing problem must take their place among the major social issues which Britain faces.
    There are various ways of measuring the problem. The first is to look at the Government's homelessness statistics. Those figures, which were running at a high level last year, already show a dramatic increase for the first quarter of
    1990. They show that for the year as a whole it is likely that no fewer than 150,000 households will be accepted officially as being homeless. On the usual extrapolation of those figures, that means that about 500,000 people are now regarded as homeless. Of those households, 33,000 are in some form of temporary accommodation and about 12,000 are in unsatisfactory bed and breakfast hotels. Those figures represent an increase of about 500 per cent. since 1982.
    In anybody's language, those figures are shocking, but they are only a fraction of the true measure of unmet housing need. Ministers will understand well that the figures do not measure those who applied to be treated as homeless but were not accepted, and that figure in turn is also at a shockingly high level—nearly 300,000 households at an annual rate this year.
    That figure does not include those who simply do not fall within the official definition of homeless. In other words, the young single homeless do not appear in the statutory figure and it does not include those who are now widely described as the hidden homeless. A recent survey in London estimated that figure at about 300,000. Those are the people familiar to many hon. Members on both sides of the House, those who present themselves at their surgeries—young couples, perhaps with a young baby, compelled to live apart, each with his and her respective parents and families who are compelled to move from one temporary address to another, begging the charity of friends and relatives. One of my constituents has no address; he simply lives in a car. He, too, does not appear in the homelessness statistics.
    The statistics do not tell the full story, but part of that story is told by the evidence of our own eyes. It is told through the evidence of the homelessness which we now see in the streets of our great cities. It is worth making the point in parenthesis that, although we tend to regard homelessness as an urban problem—indeed, as a London
    920
    problem—the problem of homelessness among young people is rising faster in areas outside London than in the capital city.
    The sight of young people sleeping rough, alongside those who are mentally and emotionally incapable of looking after themselves and those who are the victims of changes in the income support rules or who are inadequately provided for in the wake of the care in the community provisions, is truly shocking. It is little wonder that the Government have reluctantly decided that that daily witness to the growing problem of homelessness—the sight of young people begging on our streets by day and sleeping on our streets by night—is too great a blot to be tolerated and that they have to do something about it.
    The £15 million measure announced by the Minister for Housing and Planning about 10 days ago at the Institute of Housing, while welcome, is no more than a street cleaning exercise. That is an inadequate response to a problem which demands much more than cosmetic treatment.
    Mr. Robin Squire: We note the way in which the hon. Gentleman has opened his speech. I hope that before he sits down he will set out the sort of money that he would expect to spend if he were on the Government Front Bench.
    Mr. Gould: I hope to meet the hon. Gentleman's points before the end of my remarks.
    Perhaps the most compelling evidence for Members of Parliament is that presented to us through our postbags and at the surgeries which most hon. Members hold in their constituencies. I hold regular surgeries, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman does in his constituency. In recent years I have noticed a worrying and remorseless rise in the proportion of cases brought to me which involve housing needs. I estimate that perhaps 70 per cent.—sometimes more, but certainly 70 per cent.—of all my constituency cases involve some degree of unmet housing need.
    By the end of a long evening—perhaps three or four hours—considering such a range of problems, I feel profoundly depressed. That must be an experience common to hon. Members on both sides of the House, when we not only witness a parade of human misery, which is depressing in itself, but have to acknowledge that we cannot do anything, even in conjunction with a hard-working local authority, to alleviate the problems of most of those people. The all-too-predictable and depressing aspect of the housing crisis is that it hits those who are most vulnerable.
    A recent and good Department of the Environment survey showed that only 3 per cent. of the homeless had incomes at or above the national average. In London, a similar survey showed that fewer than 4 per cent. could afford to buy or rent homes in the private sector. We are dealing with people who are at the bottom of the income scale and, in many cases, are already vulnerable because of a physical or mental incapacity that makes it difficult for them to handle their affairs properly. We are often dealing with people who, by reason of membership of a minority, ethnic or otherwise, are likely to be discriminated against and to find themselves at the bottom of the pile. I fear that those groups are strongly represented in the numbers of those who are increasingly finding it difficult to be adequately housed.

    921
    Britain is a rich country, still full of resources—at least according to some Conservative Members—and at the end of a decade of prosperity. It has certainly had an unprecedented bonus from North sea oil perhaps £120 billion to £130 billion of North sea wealth that was not previously available. How is it that a country that spends a great deal, perhaps notoriously, of its natural resources on housing and on subsidised housing can fail to provide adequate housing for a substantial minority of the least fortunate citizens in our midst?
    The facts that underline the problem can be simply stated. The problem arises, not surprisingly, because there is a shortage of housing at prices that people can afford. That shortage arises primarily because we have not built enough homes. Housing completions for 1989 made a total for that decade that was the lowest peacetime total of housing completions since the first world war. That failure occurred right across the board. If the trend established by the preceding Labour Government had been maintained this Government would have built an additional 600,000 houses. They would have reduced by 200,000 the number of houses that lack one basic amenity. There is a substantial shortfall because of the Government's failure to maintain the record established by the previous Labour Government.
    Mr. Martin M. Brandon-Bravo: The hon. Gentleman must be a little more than fair. If we compare the past 10 years with the 10 previous years—which is what he was trying to do—surely he would agree that in that first decade many of our cities were just slum clearance areas. They were demolishing old houses and replacing them. There was an agreement between the Conservative and Labour parties in the city of Nottingham that, by the end of the 1970s, it would be out of the replacement era and would no longer be building 2,000 houses a year. It would be a different scene. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is comparing like with like.
    Mr. Gould: I am more than happy to be fair to the hon. Gentleman, but I think that being more than fair is a little more than is called for. I do not think that he can sustain his argument. It would be a valid argument if there was now no unmet housing need. However, we are far from that. The whole point of the problem that I have described is that there is a growing homelessness problem, which cannot be denied. While that is the case, the pressure, the demand, and the need to build more houses remain and grow.
    I do not think that the hon. Gentleman can explain the worst record of his Government in the way that he has attempted to do. The facts are clear. Under the six years of the preceding Labour Government, housing completions averaged 230,000 per year, but during the 10 years of this Government for which we have figures, the average annual total was 170,000. That is a substantial shortfall. It goes a long way towards explaining why there is the degree of unmet housing needs that Britain currently faces.
    Mr. Jeff Rooker: If there were no slums, and if the number of households was the same, the point made by the hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Brandon-Bravo) would have validity. However, the rate of household formation has changed, and that must be taken into account. That is what causes part of the pressure of the unmet housing need. The hon. Gentleman ignored that.
    Mr. Gould: My hon. Friend is right. The rate of household formation has risen for a variety of unfortunate reasons, such as marriage breakdown. There is now the relatively new or at least increased phenomenon of evictions and mortgage repossessions. All those factors have increased the need for additional housing, which is why the shortfall becomes so important.
    The failure to build houses over that period extends right across the board. The private sector did well for a short time, but, as everybody knows—and it hardly needs reinforcing—it has now fallen victim to the regime of high interest rates and its contribution to the housing scene has been much reduced since mid-1988.
    Housing associations, on which the Government pinned such great hopes as the main providers of social housing, have been hard hit—not only by high interest rates, but by the recently discovered problems of the Housing Corporation. No proper explanation has yet been offered about whether those problems are the result of mismanagement, bad luck, or simply having to grapple with the environment created by the Government. What is known is that even if the housing associations were freed from the problem of the difficulties of the Housing Corporation, they could not hope to meet more than a fraction of the shortfall, even at best. We also know that because of the Housing Corporation's difficulties, the Government's forecasts of completions by housing associations for the coming two years are now not worth the paper they are written on. I hope that when the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment replies to the debate he will inform the House, the housing associations, and all who depend on them for social housing of the new forecasts. I suspect that he will have a sorry story to tell—that is, if he is prepared to come clean. We certainly expect him to give us the figures.
    Mr. David Nicholson: If the hon. Gentleman checks the record, he will see that I am not unsympathetic to the points that he made at the beginning of his speech. However, his policy appears to be spend, spend, spend; build, build, build. Does not that ignore the problem of 100,000 empty council properties and over five times that number of empty private properties? Should not we use the resources available at present to solve the problem?
    Mr. Gould: If the hon. Gentleman checks the record, he will know that I take the view that one property empty for no good reason is one too many. I do not dissent from the need to impress on local authorities, private landlords, housing associations, the public sector and, not least, Government Departments that it is a shocking betrayal of the homeless to keep properties unnecessarily empty.
    The hon. Gentleman must accept that even if we were to squeeze that figure, and even if we could persuade his right hon. and hon. Friends to do something about the high rate of housing stock kept empty by Government Departments, we would still not have done enough to make good the failure to build the houses that we need.
    The picture is at its bleakest in local authorities. The private sector has fallen short, housing associations have been crippled even in respect of the relatively unambitious total set for them, but local authorities—despite all their efforts and against their will have been forced to cut housing provision dramatically.
    The figures are shocking. In 1976, local authorities in England completed 105,000 houses. Last year the figure

    923
    was down to 16,000. It is scheduled—as Ministers will agree—to fall still further in the current year, and if the present Government remain in office much longer, no doubt it will be destined to disappear altogether. That is where the shortfall arises and why, particularly in social housing where the need is felt at its most acute, we are confronted by today's problems. Hon. Members do not face those problems, but they are faced by the homeless.
    Mr. David Winnick: My hon. Friend has been describing the plight of the homeless, but does he agree that many other people, although not homeless, desperately need adequate rented accommodation? Is not the situation made worse by the lack of local authority building on any significant scale? There has been none in my borough for 11 years. The Government say that housing association provision can take the place of local authority dwellings to some extent. In 1978, under a Labour Government there were nearly 18,000 starts, but in 1989, before the Housing Corporation's present crisis, the figure was only 9,600. Does not that prove that even housing associations are not achieving anything like the number of starts, or providing anything like the accommodation, that they did under a Labour Government?
    Mr. Gould: My hon. Friend is right, and I am grateful to him for that information. We have yet to hear the Minister's predictions for housing association completions over the next two years.
    It is a question not just of the shortfall of supply but of the affordability of housing. The impact of high mortgage interest rates on home owners is well known. I suspect that it is felt by a number of hon. Members, who will not need too much persuading of the severe repercussions of that development. Home ownership, so long held up as the great objective not only of Government policies but of all right-thinking people, has become an impossible dream for many—and an impossible nightmare for many more. I refer to the people who find it extremely difficult to maintain mortgage repayments.
    Many households and families whose budgets have been totally destroyed by the impact of high interest rates do not figure in any official statistics. At the fringe, there is the small but inexorably growing number of people who are substantially in arrears with their mortgage repayments. The number of those who have arrears of six months is growing all the time, as is the number of repossessions.
    It would be a mistake to imagine that the impact of high interest rates has been felt exclusively by owner-occupiers. Rents, too, have risen sharply, across the board. It is difficult to measure the rise in the private sector, but rents of housing associations—on which so many hopes were pinned have also sharply increased, by 24 per cent. Last year alone. That is because those associations are directed increasingly to raise capital on the open market, so they, too, pay high interest rates.
    In the public sector, as among the private rented sector, tenants have faced substantially increased rents. My hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley) has done excellent work in detailing the impact on one local authority area after another. No doubt he will say more about that issue later. It is clear that many local authorities
    924
    have found it extremely unpleasant to be forced to push up council rents against their own better judgment. It is worth recalling that the west Oxfordshire Tory councillors who resigned the Tory Whip did so not just because of the poll tax but because they resented and were unwilling to comply with the direction to force up council rents to market levels. They pointed to the impact of ring fencing on the housing revenue account, and of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 in directing local authorities to raise rents to market levels.
    Mr. Robert G. Hughes: We know that what is vilified by Labour spokesmen this year will become conventional Labour wisdom next year. Will the hon. Gentleman go through his entire speech, as he did at the Institute of Housing conference, without making one policy suggestion or stating what a future Labour Government might do?
    Mr. Gould: If the hon. Gentleman will contain his impatience and allow me to proceed, I will rapidly reach the point that will satisfy his request.
    Inadequate supply and increasing housing costs go some way to explaining the crisis but not why it exists. No Opposition Member supposes that the Government deliberately created it. Rather, it is the consequence of a failure of analysis and the priority given to ideology. The Government have been misled by their own obsessions. As in other areas, it is not the Government but the most vulnerable who are paying the price for the Government's mistakes.
    I do not expect to carry Conservative Members with me when I make that assertion, but I hope that they will listen—particularly when I concede, as I have on other occasions, that we, too, have been guilty in the past of approaching housing from too ideological a viewpoint. We used to believe that only local authorities could provide social housing and that the intrinsic merits of public sector rented housing should override individual preferences. We recognised our mistakes, and I hope that the Government will do likewise.
    The Government's first mistake was a mirror image of our own. They held, for reasons of ideological obsession, that local authorities had no role to play in housing provision. That is why we saw a shocking decline in new house completions for which local authorities were responsible during the 1980s. That is why local authorities had their allocations cut and why their ability to borrow on the capital market was reduced. That is why they are subjected to the lunatic control that prevents them from spending their own capital receipts on housing provision. That shows how far the Government have been prepared to press their hostility towards local authorities, in an attempt to eliminate them from their essential role in meeting housing need.
    The Government's second mistake was excessive reliance on the private sector. No one disputes that it has a role to play, but, as is currently evident, the private sector is vulnerable to volatile market conditions, and is unable to sustain output when interest rates rise. The encouragement of house price inflation that was meant to sustain a boom has produced a bust instead. It was a mistake to assume that the private sector could carry the load by itself.
    The private sector itself acknowledges that truth. Unlike the Government, private companies in the

    925
    construction industry admit that, while they can do a certain amount of work themselves, in many cases the price of success for them is co-operation and partnership with the public sector. They appreciate that, although they have capital and expertise to contribute, that is not enough by itself and that only local authorities in most cases have the land, land assembly powers, powers over planning, development, and most of all the democratic legitimacy—the accountability to their local communities—that allows them to provide and guarantee developments that are in the interests of those local communities.
    The Government's third mistake of an ideological nature was the belief that the market can always provide. Given the peculiar and convoluted structure of housing finance, and the structure of land prices and building costs, there is no way that the private market can meet the need for social housing. The Ministers must know that, because a study commissioned by their Department and carried out by Price Waterhouse last year demonstrated that a married man with two children on an income just above housing benefit level could afford a two-bedroomed house for his family and pay a private sector market rent for it in only two cities in Britain—Leicester and Newcastle. Elsewhere, the private sector simply does not provide housing to such a family at a price remotely in relation with its ability to pay.
    The Government's fourth mistake is obsession with tenure. They believe that changing tenure is somehow a solution to the problem of housing shortages. Whatever its merits or demerits, selling council houses does not add a single new unit to the housing stock. Indeed, it makes the management of existing stock in the public sector so much more difficult. Again, I suspect that many Conservative Members understand the experience that my local authority has. As family houses have been sold from the housing stock and the local authority has been prevented from replacing those houses, and making good that loss, it has become impossible to pursue the sensible management of the housing stock in the interests of the tenants.
    Previously, it was possible to put young, married, childless couples in high rise blocks. When the couple had children, they could be moved down to a flat or maisonette with a garden. As their children grew up the family could be put into a family house. When the children left home and the parents retired, the couple could be put back into a flat, as they wished. That was a sensible progress in the use of the housing stock, but it has ground to a halt because losses have been sustained to the housing stock but nothing has been done to replace the housing lost. The system now condemns young mothers with growing children to a permanent future in a flat at the top of a high rise tower block.
    I am aware that the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes) can hardly contain his impatience, so I shall tell him what I believe is the way forward. It could be embraced by the Government as well as the Opposition. We must approach the provision of housing free from ideological preconceptions. We must use in as flexible and pragmatic a way possible all the instruments that lie to hand. That means that we shall encourage the private sector to make its contribution in what under a Labour Government would clearly be a more stable interest rate and investment climate.
    We would encourage the private sector to enter into partnership arrangements with local authorities and housing associations so that each could make their proper
    926
    contribution to the joint enterprise and provide the houses that are needed. We should extend and encourage the role of housing associations. I hope that we shall be assured this evening that the problems of the Housing Corporation are of short duration and that the Government will come to the aid of their favourite instrument. We shall encourage local authorities to resume their essential role in meeting the need for social housing. We shall begin by progressively relaxing and removing the controls that prevent local authorities from spending their capital receipts. About 8.5 billion is held by local authorities. In many cases they would be willing, indeed keen, to spend a proportion of that money on the provision of housing and, in particular, on a programme to relieve the immediate problem of homelessness.
    We calculate that it would be possible to establish—indeed a Labour Government would immediately set in train—a scheme that would produce 50,000 houses at a cost of only a small proportion of the capital receipts held by local authorities. In case anyone asks what that figure is, I should mention that it is £1,850 million. That would be an immediate solution to the homelessness problem. We would then progressively further relax constraints so that local authorities could draw on the skills and resources required to enable them to make a proper contribution.
    We should not only approach the matter free from prejudice but encourage a level playing field in terms of subsidy so that people can really choose which type of tenure they prefer. Housing should be free from the imbalance that currently disfigures our housing finance. A huge and growing subsidy is provided to owner-occupiers. Admittedly that is a reflection of high interest rates. That provided a substantial financial incentive until recently to those who were tempted to buy their own homes.
    Mr. David Nicholson: What are you going to do?
    Mr. Gould: What we intend to do and have committed ourselves to do is to reduce and remove the excessive subsidy to those at the highest level of the income scale who receive tax relief in proportion with the size of their income. The first essential step which should be taken and which will be be useful in restoring the balance that I have described is to reduce mortgage tax relief to the standard rate of tax. We also believe that we should remove the idea which so informs the Government's housing policy, that to rent one's home is somehow an inferior or second-best form of tenure.
    I am glad to see that Ministers are avid readers of "Looking to the Future". Many of our proposals are designed to narrow the gap between tenants and owner-occupiers in the control that they have over their housing conditions.
    Mr. David Martin: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Gould: The hon. Gentleman must let me complete this point.
    We believe that it is right to increase tenants' control and rights so that they can again choose in accordance with their personal preferences and circumstances the form of tenure that suits them best. They should not be driven by their inadequate rights as tenants and the inadequate subsidy that tenants receive in comparison with owner-occupiers into making arrangements to purchase a house which, for many of them, proves disastrous.
    Mr. David Martin: The hon. Gentleman mentioned "Looking to the Future" and referred to ideology. How will the Labour party carry out the following policy described in that document? It says:
    "We are also looking at ways of extending the right to buy to private tenants who have rented for many years from a non-resident business landlord."
    Would not that finally kill off any incentive for such landlords to provide housing? Does not it prevent any choice in that area of housing for the future?
    Mr. Gould: I cannot understand how the hon. Gentleman can support the right to buy in respect of one group of landlords but deny it in respect of another. As to whether it is right or proper to deter the private landlord, I have no objection whatever to the private sector providing accommodation for rent to those who wish to rent at a market price. However, for the reasons that I gave earlier, the notion that the private landlord can provide housing for those who need social housing—those who cannot pay the market rent—is completely misplaced. If the hon. Gentleman continues to hold that view, that takes us a long way towards unravelling the mystery, which perhaps is not much of a mystery, of why the Government's housing policy is in such disarray and disaster.
    Housing provision is not a difficult issue.
    Mr. Douglas French: Is that it?
    Mr. Gould: It is an issue that is often clouded and made more difficult by putting political labels on it. We should accept that the private sector can help, but that it cannot do everything.
    Mr. Hugo Summerson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Gould: No. Let me complete this point.
    There is a role for the public sector and for housing associations as well as for the private sector. We should accept that the market can fix the price of some but by no means all property either for rent or for sale. We should accept that there is and will remain a substantial need for social housing at non-market prices. We should accept that individual preference rather than political prejudice should determine the form of tenure and that, apart from the pattern of subsidy and the restrictions placed on the rights of tenants even for individuals, at different times and in different circumstances during their lives they will want to choose different forms of tenure. We should make that choice as easy and real as possible.
    We should recognise that the housing problem affects not only the homeless and those in inadequate housing, but the operation of our economy. In many parts of the economy inadequate housing affects labour mobility and makes it more difficult to attract essential public sector workers such as teachers, nurses, bus drivers, train drivers and so on.
    Unless we get to grips with the problem we shall be doing a disservice to the homeless and fatally handicapping our economy and our society. No Government can claim to have served the country well if a minority of its most vulnerable citizens cannot find decent housing. No Government can claim success if the number of homeless continues to grow, as it does. Therefore, I hope that the Minister for Housing and Planning will not claim success on behalf of the
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    Government but will seriously address an issue of great importance and pressing urgency which is a growing blot on the Government's 11-year record.
    8 pm
    The Minister for Housing and Planning (Mr. Michael Spicer): I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
    "congratulates the Government on the success of its housing policies, which have extended the benefits of owner-occupation to two-thirds of all households, achieved better value for money from over £6 billion a year of public expenditure, increasingly focused this assistance on those most in need of it, and greatly widened freedom of choice for tenants in the public and private rented sectors."
    The hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) began his speech with a reference to the facts and so will I. He referred in particular to statutory homelessness. I shall happily give way to the hon. Gentleman if I am wrong, but I think that I heard him say that there were 500,000 statutory homeless. Last year 132,000 people were accepted into statutory homelessness.
    Mr. Gould: With respect to the Minister, he may be confusing the number of households with the number of individuals. Shelter is very clear that it is permissible and indeed proper to multiply the number of households by a figure of just over three to produce the number of individuals who are homeless. I was referring to the number of individuals.
    Mr. Spicer: The one fact about the 132,000 households accepted into statutory homelessness that the hon. Gentleman failed to mention is that they were provided with homes.
    Mr. Gould: Let me put it on record for the sake of those who are trying to follow the debate that the Minister has got off to a most unfortunate start. On the central question of the statistics that tell us the extent of homelessness in Britain—the numbers accepted by local authorities as officially homeless—the Minister simply does not understand his own figures.
    Mr. Spicer: I understand the figures perfectly well. I also understand that those 132,000 households were found homes. Of course, we must consider how many people are in temporary accommodation. I totally accept that 40,000 people—not 500,000 people or millions of people as we hear from Opposition Members and their supporters outside the House—are in temporary accommodation and that 12,000 people are in bed-and-breakfast accommodation. I agree that that is 12,000 too many. That is why we are spending £250 million directed specifically at helping those in bed-and-breakfast accommodation. Between 1,000 and a maximum of 3,000 people are sleeping rough on the streets of London and about 2,000 people are sleeping rough outside the metropolis. I concede that there are also a number of people sharing houses and flats unwillingly. The House is addressing itself to the reasons behind those facts.
    The hon. Member for Dagenham implied that not many new houses have been built since the Government took office. In the past 10 years 1.6 million new houses have been built—additions to the housing stock—while the population of the country has risen by less than 1 million. The number of houses per head of population has risen quite considerably in the past 10 years. So why is there such pressure?
    Mr. Rooker: That is pathetic.
    Mr. Spicer: It is not pathetic to argue that the housing stock per head of population has risen considerably, when an essential element of the Opposition's argument is that the housing stock appears to have deteriorated.
    Mr. Rooker: Will the Minister give way?
    Mr. Spicer: I shall give way in a moment.
    When one asks why there is pressure on housing in Britain and throughout the western world, the answer is extremely clear, although the hon. Member for Dagenham skirted around it. There are new social circumstances, particularly as, sadly, many families are breaking up. It is a phenomenon in the western world and cannot be ignored. Whereas in the past a family required one house, now in some cases a family requires two, three or even four houses. Undoubtedly, as a result of families breaking up throughout the western world if the hon. Member for Dagenham has visited other countries he will have found out for himself—there is a growing social change that is creating pressure on housing.
    Mr. Rooker: I noticed the ease with which the Minister moved from numbers of homeless households to discussing population. Of course, the population has increased by only 1 million, but the Minister should be examining household formation. Once in a while a Minister has to make up his mind about whether the Government plan to bring in more restrictive divorce laws. Families have always broken up. Until the late 1960s the law did not prevent families from breaking up but people were forced to continue living together and were unable to start new lives. Will the Tory Government accept modern reality? They will have to make sure that there are more houses or introduce more restrictive divorce laws. Those are the only alternatives to the present difficulties.
    Mr. Spicer: I was simply going through the facts. There are increasing numbers of break-ups in families and that is putting pressure on the housing market. Of course, the Government have to respond to that pressure. I shall explain to the House precisely what we propose to do. It will not be the same menu as that of the Labour party; I shall come to that in a few moments.
    Undoubtedly, there is a need for massive public spending, and that is happening. We are spending £3 billion subsidising the housing revenue accounts of local authorities. Of £3 billion of capital allocations, more than £1 billion is currently being spent on housing associations through the Housing Corporation. I should tell the hon. Member for Dagenham, in direct reply to the question he asked in his speech, that we are confident that, for a variety of reasons, output will rise to 40,000 in the next two years. That is a considerable amount of subsidised building.
    Mr. Gould: The Minister has given us an important answer. That figure, if it is to be believed, is most encouraging. How soon does the Minister envisage that the Housing Corporation, which has had to put a stop to housing association new investment for the time being, will overcome that problem and resume normal business? My conversations with those involved suggest that there is no early prospect of that happening, which would mean a substantial reduction in the forecast to which the Minister refers.
    Mr. Spicer: Labour spokesmen completely ignore the reason why there are reschedulings of allocation at the moment. Completions have speeded up and are happening at a much faster rate than was originally planned. That is good news for people being housed, but of course we have to bring the process under cash control. Completions are coming through at different times under the old and new allocation procedures, but the rate of completion is being maintained, so I have given the hon. Gentleman the reply for which he asked.
    A massive amount is spent—this is often ignored by the Labour party—on subsidised housing. There are two principles by which we operate those subsidies. First, we target them on those who need them most. That clearly has implications for our attitude to rents and to housing benefit and support, which we want to be channelled through the ring-fencing mechanism to those who need it.
    Secondly, by changing the emphasis through the housing associations and the Housing Corporation we shall attract more private finance. We estimate that three quarters of all new build by the housing associations will attract private finance. Therefore, the taxpayer will get better value for money than with local authority finance.
    Mr. Clive Soley: The Minister has carelessly thrown out figures on the public sector. Will he address the dispute without the Conservative party? Both sides agree that public investment in housing has been cut from 7 per cent. about 10 years ago to 1.5 per cent. That is a pretty dramatic cut. The Conservative-controlled Association of District Councils, the Conservative-controlled London Boroughs Association and many Conservative councillors say that the Government have cut too much in housing, hence the problems in west Oxfordshire that my hon. Friend the Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) referred to. What is the Government's position? Are they saying that the ADC and the LBA are wrong or right? If they are saying that they are right, where will the additional funds—estimated by the ADC to be between £35 billion and £50 billion—come from?
    Mr. Spicer: The Government's massive spending programme must be considered in the context of other policies. We intend to continue with the galvanisation of the private sector, by which we shall ensure increased home ownership.
    I am pleased that the Labour party has apologised to the country for the mistake that it made in opposing the right to buy. One wonders whether there are more apologies to come for further mistakes. We are long-suffering about the Labour party, but I thank it for apologising to us and to the rest of the country for being wrong about the right to buy. As it presumably now knows, there are enormous benefits in people owning their home, given the sense of pride and independence that flows from it.
    We have raised the percentage of home ownership from under 60 per cent. to almost 70 per cent. That must be good.
    Mr. Gould rose—
    Mr. Spicer: I shall continue, otherwise other hon. Members will not be able to speak. The hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley) can reply to my remarks at the end of the debate.

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    We shall ensure that access to home ownership stretches to those who are on lower incomes. That is one of the reasons why we are considering ideas such as rent to mortgage, extending shared ownership arrangements and part equity. I agree with the hon. Member for Dagenham that under a sound and balanced housing policy there must be a thriving rented market. That is why we intend to revitalise the private rented sector.[Interruption.] Opposition Members look askance, but I shall return to the private rented sector.
    As a part of our panoply of policies to meet some of the pressures on the housing market, we are considering planning procedures and intend to introduce a Bill to make them much more efficient, in the interests not only of development and housing but of maintaining the countryside and environment. We want to achieve a balance as efficiently as possible. The hon. Member for Dagenham nodded his head when I mentioned the possibility of a planning Bill. I hope that that means that we shall receive the Opposition's co-operation on it.
    Mr. David Nicholson: Will my hon. Friend undertake to consult hon. Members, particularly Conservative Members, about the planning legislation? Conservative Members have considerable experience of planning disputes. We do not wish to see lots more housing or other development on green-field sites in our constituencies.
    Mr. Spicer: New planning legislation will ensure that the balance between development and the preservation of the environment is maintained.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson) earlier mentioned the national scandal of the 750,000 empty houses. It is a priority of the Government to ensure that those houses are properly used. My hon. Friend rightly said that 100,000 of those empty houses are in the possession of councils.
    Mr. Robert G. Hughes: Labour councils.
    Mr. Spicer: Yes, mainly Labour councils. Those housing authorities should be putting those empty houses to good purpose. We intend, when considering subsidies, to take into account how local authorities use their local housing stock, and we certainly will not subsidise empty council houses. We shall assume that they are earning rent when we allocate subsidies.
    I agree that we must address the problem of the 600,000 empty houses in the private sector. Overwhelmingly, what lies behind that figure is hostility, which has built up for many years, towards the landlord and the private rented market. That does not exist in other similar countries. In the United States, the private rented share of the market is over 30 per cent.; in France, which is similar, it is over 30 per cent.; and in Germany it is over 40 per cent., but here it is about 7 per cent., although as recently as 1950 it was 50 per cent., and at the turn of the century it was 90 per cent.
    Mr. Winnick: Does the Minister accept that the private rented sector does not provide the accommodation that is desperately needed? I looked at the advertisements in today's Evening Standard. It is true that there are places to let, but there are no flats for less than £140 a week. The people who can afford that are able to own their own home
    932
    and to obtain a mortgage. What use are those advertisements to the people who simply cannot afford to pay £100, or in some cases more than £200, a week in rent?
    Mr. Spicer: In a moment, we shall find that the hon. Gentleman has made my point for me. The collapse of the private rented market is especially tragic for single people who have traditionally depended on it for housing. There are signs that the Housing Act 1988 is bringing life back into private renting. I want to speed up that process considerably.
    I want, therefore, to announce a six-point plan for reinstating the private rented sector and for giving self-confidence back to the private landlord. First, we shall give the widest possible publicity to the provisions of the Housing Act 1988. It was a well-balanced piece of legislation which introduced tough measures against unscrupulous landlords who bullied their tenants while giving new rights to landlords to set market rents and to repossess their properties. We shall, in the near future, be publishing a easy-to-read booklet on the new rights that have been given to landlords.
    Secondly, as from next April, we shall be speeding up the legal procedures by which disputes about rent between landlords and tenants are settled. Thirdly, we shall be discussing with building societies and finance houses any remaining reservations that they may have about the letting of property in which they have an interest. Fourthly, we shall be discussing with housing associations how they can help on a fee-earning basis with the management problems associated with letting property. Those are sometimes perceived to be especially acute by elderly landlords. Fifthly, we shall maintain the pace of our new lodgers initiative, which is making it much easier for people to rent out rooms in their homes. Sixthly, in the context of our single homeless initiative, we shall focus attention—
    Mr. Dennis Turner: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Spicer: No, I shall not give way.
    In the context of our single homeless initiative, we shall focus attention especially on the better use of space above shops. That will be done with the assistance of the greater help provided by the new renovation grants regime as applied to landlords. As I said, there are signs of life already returning to the private rented sector and this plan will speed up the process.
    However, one major problem remains—the blight placed on private rented housing by the Labour party. According to the published document, Labour would once again intervene in fixing rents.
    Mr. John P. Smith: Read it out.
    Mr. Spicer: I certainly will read it out. It is good stuff and it makes good reading. On page 26, under the heading "Tenants", the document says:
    "Labour will ensure that rents are set at levels which people can afford."
    Labour also intends to sequester properties. The document says:
    "We are also looking at ways of extending the right to buy to private tenants who have rented for many years from non-resident business landlords."
    I shall not read the whole document as those sentences stand for themselves.

    933
    The measures of sequestration and of the reintroduction of a form of rent control would probably be enough in themselves to kill off the private rented sector. However, in this matter as in others, it is the secret manifesto that worries one most. The hon. Member for Dagenham has sounded reasonable and balanced, and he has used words such as "flexible" and "pragmatic". However, that is one public face of the present Labour party. Another public face is revealed by a document that I have here, which has been circulated by the Labour research department at Labour headquarters. It contains several proposals. On tenure, the document says:
    "All tenants and licensees of non-resident landlords will have the right to full security of tenure…But Labour will go beyond simply restoring succession rights to the pre-1989 position; we will extend them in both the public and private sectors. Any partner of a tenant should have the right to succeed to the tenancy on the tenant's death…If the tenant has no partner, any person who has lived as part of the tenant's household for six months should have succession rights…Labour believes a minimum of two successions should be offered. This would allow, for example, one partner to succeed the other, and, in turn, for one of their children to succeed them."
    So much for tenure.
    Mr. Rooker: What is wrong with that?
    Madam Deputy Speaker: Order.
    Mr. Spicer: On rent controls, the document says:
    "The disastrous deregulation of housing association and private rents will be ended by Labour. Rents will, once again, be set independently of the landlord."
    In other words, there will be fixed rents.
    On the allocation of tenancies, the document says:
    "all non-resident landlords should be obliged to observe the principle of equal opportunities in the allocation of housing on the basis of race, gender, sexuality, age and disability."
    On the right to buy, the document says:
    "Labour's aim is to extend the principle of the Right to Buy to many private tenants currently denied that right."
    There may be doubt about what the Labour party really believes. I suspect that there is considerable confusion and doubt in the mind of the hon. Member for Dagenham. In a recent interview in a magazine called "Roof", which is published by Shelter—not exactly a passionate supporter of the Government—the editor questioned him on some specific issues. The editor asked the hon. Gentleman what the Labour definition of affordable rent will be. The editor writes:
    "Gould is coy. 'I don't suppose we'll be putting figures on that, no. We are, I stress, committed to rents people can afford."'
    The editor then asks:
    "'can we expect Labour to define an affordable rent in the manifesto itself?' Gould laughs: 'I think that's unlikely.'"
    The poor old editor tries again and asks:
    "'Does Labour have a housing goal?' 'Not in any very specific sense.'"
    All that would be funny if it were not rather worrying. We have had a demonstration today of the way in which the hon. Member for Dagenham sounds plausible, flexible and pragmatic—whatever word he may want to use at present. A better example is the submerged part of the iceberg, which is extremely worrying. I do not know what Labour will publish in the near future, or what its official position will be at the next general election. I suspect that Labour will try to hide most of this stuff before the election. However, even its published pronouncements on the private rented sector are blighting the market. That restricts housing, especially for the single homeless. At the
    934
    same time that the Labour party has the brass neck to table the motion tonight, it is preventing the development of the traditional form of housing for single people. That is outrageous.
    Mr. Gould: I am sorry to interrupt the Minister's flow. Is he saying that private landlords are now convinced of the imminence of a Labour Government? Is that his view as well?
    Mr. Spicer: Of course not. The consolation prize in all this is that Labour will never get into power. The Labour party is running around the country saying in public how pragmatic it is and how it wishes to match the private with the public sector. It is apologising to the Government for being wrong about the right to buy and saying that it is thinking again about the role of the housing associations. But in the bowels of its engine room, it is churning out consultation papers that represent traditional socialism of the very left kind. That is a strange proposition for the country to be faced with. On the one hand, the Labour party is covering the cracks and, on the other, a fully fledged socialist document is being prepared in its back room.
    Mr. Soley: Speaking from the engine room, I should like to draw to the Minister's attention the fact that over the past six months—there has certainly been a dramatic increase in the past few months—I have had numerous interviews with consultants and private landlords. They agree with my analysis of the decline of the private sector, which they also say has hardly anything to do with the rent Acts and everything to do with the way in which we subsidise housing in Britain. More important, a group of major landlords has gone away to work on proposals that would give private tenants the right to buy. I am pleased about that, because we shall take the good landlords with us. The Tory party can keep the Rachmans.
    Mr. Spicer: Methinks the hon. Gentleman protests too much. He is clearly on the defensive, and rightly so because the Labour party is in a very bad position. The Opposition are hitting hardest single people—in particular the single homeless—who have depended traditionally on the private rented sector to rent rooms. Yet, at the same time, the Labour party introduces motions such as the motion that we are debating tonight.
    For our part, we accept that there are new housing pressures, which have been brought on in Britain and throughout the western world by rapidly changing social conditions—in particular, by the tragic breakdown of many family ties. But in so far as it is a housing problem, we are treating it with urgency. We are spending vast sums of public money as effectively as we can. We are further galvanising the private sector in respect of home ownership and renting. Most immediately, we are ensuring that we make better use of almost three quarters of a million empty houses. The radical and urgent manner in which we are addressing those matters makes nonsense of the Opposition's motion.
    8.32 pm
    Mr. Jeff Rooker: I found the Minister's speech profoundly depressing. That is especially sad as this is the first housing debate that I have attended since he has been in post. There were several crucial issues regarding the housing crisis on which he did not see fit to

    935
    touch. I shall come to some of them in a moment. I do not want to speak for too long as this is a short debate, but I want to make a couple of constituency points and a couple of policy points.
    The housing crisis is not evenly spread throughout the country. Everyone realises that. In the north, the condition of the stock is the overwhelming contributor to the crisis, whereas in the south it is the sheer shortage of stock. In the midlands, we are piggy in the middle. We suffer from poor quality housing and a shortage of stock, but not to the extremes that are experienced in the north and south. That means that we are left out; we do not make the headlines. Nevertheless, the extent and nature of the housing crisis in the midlands is such that, were we talking about London, it would merit headline space. That point is not made clear in our general housing policy. It is not made clear in the media and it is ignored by those with London-centred attitudes.
    I shall refer in a moment to the Housing Corporation, but I want first to refer to Birmingham, part of which I represent. In recent years, we have lost out badly in the housing allocation. We have a massive amount of system-built housing to replace. That housing needs to be cleared; it cannot be renovated. The Boswell houses and the 900 Boot houses in my constituency cannot be salvaged. They will have to be replaced with a variety of mixed tenure housing of varying density and with different financial arrangements. That was par for the course to the Labour party when I was on the Front Bench, and it remains par for the course now. We do not have the financial wherewithal to provide the public money to pull in the private capital that we need to make those changes. That is why I think that the Government have gone too far.
    Let me give an example. In the housing needs index and stress area review undertaken by the Housing Corporation, Birmingham lost out more than any other city or district in England. By 1992–93, the Housing Corporation's programme will be worth £1.7 billion—double what it was two or three years ago. By then, Birmingham will be losing out to the tune of £20 million a year because of the changes in the housing needs index and the stress area factors: the city will have lost 1.3 percentage points in that index. The Minister frowns, but he can check those figures and he will find that they are accurate. We shall lose £20 million a year after taking the stress area factors into account.
    We must bear in mind the fact that that loss is on top of Birmingham's ever-declining housing investment programme allocation. The Minister talks for all the world as though the housing investment allocations and the housing investment programme are public subsidy. They are not. They merely give the city permission to borrow money, on which the council will have to pay market interest rates. The housing investment allocation is not money doled out to Birmingham city council by the Department of the Environment.
    Mr. Michael Spicer: It is money that the city council is permitted to borrow and on which the interest charged is fully subsidised.
    Mr. Rooker: It may be fully subsidised over a 60-year period, but Birmingham is not getting the billions of
    936
    pounds worth of handouts of which the Minister talks. He spoke of the capital allocation, not the interest subsidy, and one must consider the two things separately. The HIP allocation for Birmingham is not money given to Birmingham by the Government. The Government are merely giving Birmingham permission to borrow. As I said, that makes matters even worse because, over the years, our allocation has been cut and it is planned to cut it even further. We are supposed to be the country's second city, yet on the Z scores of the census index we have the largest single concentrated area of deprivation in the country. I am not talking down my city—we have to make a realistic case for the bids—but if similar circumstances applied in London, they would be headline news.
    We do not have a cardboard city in Birmingham yet, but it is around the corner. Virtually every hostel in the city is almost full every night. It would take only a slight change now and we would have a cardboard city. A slight shift would also mean families in bed-and-breakfast accommodation. To its credit, Birmingham city council has never yet placed a family in bed-and-breakfast accommodation. It ill behoves the Minister to castigate the council on the number of empty dwellings, which is less than the national average—less than 2 per cent. There will always be empty properties. Heaven knows, I have criticised Labour and Tory-controlled councils alike for having an excessive number of empty properties which could be available for letting. But in a country with about 20 million dwellings and with millions of people moving around, we shall always have empty dwellings. It stands to reason. Every dwelling cannot be full every night. I understand that, according to the professionals, we need about 4 per cent., and, by and large, that is the private sector figure. The local authority average is only 2.3 per cent. We need 4 per cent. to keep the system going so that people have the chance to move. As I said, Birmingham city council has never yet put a family in bed-and-breakfast accommodation, but we are close to it and to cardboard city.
    Boosting the private landlord, as the Minister did in his speech, is not the answer. Being someone else's landlord is not an acceptable way to earn a living. That is a bald, stark statement, but it is not an attack on decent, caring private landlords. I probably should have said "being someone's exploitative landlord". That is the difference between the Opposition and the Tories. We genuinely want a partnership with the private sector—in tenure and money—but not an exploitative private sector. We genuinely want variety and change in finance and tenure, but we will not set up one section of society financially to exploit another.
    The Minister talked about opening rooms above shops. The Tories have been talking about that for the past 11 years, but they have done nothing about it, save in one or two areas in which there was some heritage or historical aspect or some extra funny-money funding that they could find to assist. They have not seriously tackled the problem in 11 years. It is no good trotting out that policy now in the twilight of the Government, because it will not wash.
    Let me deal briefly with two other points. One relates to the Housing Corporation and the mess that it has got itself into.
    Mr. George Howarth: The Government have got it into it.
    Mr. Rooker: The Government have got the Housing Corporation into a mess, with the result that people will be homeless for longer than they would otherwise have been. On 13 December last, the Public Accounts Committee took evidence from the chief executive of the Housing Corporation and the permanent secretary of the Department of the Environment. Question No. 584 on page 15, which was not asked by me, on the Housing Corporation's plans and the housing aspects of the Department of the Environment, states:
    "Next year you are going to get even more money. Will you be able to cope physically with the expansion of monies that is involved? I am not talking about labour and materials; I am talking about physically getting the money out to the housing associations who depend on you."
    The chief executive of the Housing Corporation, David Edmonds, replied:
    "I think so. I have great confidence that the work we have done over the last three or four years in putting into place some really quite sophisticated systems…We are a very highly computerised organisation."
    He said further:
    "We have a record system and a recording system and an ability to turn round paper which is very much greatly enhanced…We have…new financial systems, internal controls and checks…the volume of our work next year will be easily absorbable by the Housing Corporation."
    Mr. George Howarth: What happened?
    Mr. Rooker: My hon. Friend asks, "What happened?". Why have I and other hon. Members for some months been on the receiving end of the most desperate pleas from housing associations that did everything that they were asked to do to get ready for the new system? They would have been the first to be on the receiving end of complaints from Ministers if they had not been ready for the new regime, but they were ready. They told the Housing Corporation that they were ready. One assumes that the Housing Corporation told the Government that they were ready. The Public Accounts Committee has not yet reported on that matter. I must assume that the assurances that were given to the Public Accounts Committee last November about the strength and sophistication of financial forecasting have been totally shot to pieces and exposed as false in the past few months. The Housing Corporation—perhaps with the Government's hand on it—has failed to meet its duties and responsibilities of financial management and control.
    The end result is that building firms will shed labour and homeless people will not get homes. I give one example, and I make no apology for choosing it, from the city of Birmingham. Birmingham Friendship housing association wants to build four five-person houses on a site in Sparkbrook. It has forged a package deal with a local builder who owns the site. The scheme, just under £300,000, is in the draft Housing Corporation 1990–91 programme, but, like many other housing associations, Birmingham Friendship does not know whether it will get an allocation for work this year. Meanwhile, the builder, who has held his price for the scheme since last year, is anxious to get on with the work. A small scheme, nevertheless, sums up the hardships and disappointments suffered on the ground because of the cash crisis. Homes for local Asian families will be lost. Work in an area of high unemployment will be lost to a firm of multi-ethnic builders which has held its costs for a year, waiting on the promise that it was in the draft Housing Corporation programme.
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    That is just one example—four houses for five families—and it can be repeated in virtually every urban area in the country. It is all because of financial mismanagement on the part of the Housing Corporation because the Government either did not listen or took no account of the information that they received. I emphasise that that is happening in every urban area in the country.
    One word that I did not hear fall from the Minister's lips was "rural". Not once did he refer to the problems of rural dwellers and the housing crisis. It is no good his pointing to the Secretary of State for the Environment, who must be one of the most disappointed Secretaries of State ever to see successive Ministers of State come and go in his own Department. If he is to refer to rural areas, that is fine. My remark was not meant personally. I have great respect for the Under-Secretary of State. He has been badly treated by the Prime Minister.
    I now raise a couple of issues about rural problems. I make no apology for that. I am an urban dweller and an urban representative, but someone must make the case for rural dwellers Tory—Members do not do it. The problem is constantly left to Opposition Members.
    My record is quite good. I had an Adjournment debate on the problems of rural communities. If the Minister's minders want to look it up, it was on 5 April of this year and is reported at column 1394 of Hansard. I raised the whole gamut of the problems of rural dwellers. I referred to the difficulties of housing and gave some examples, but at column 1399 the Minister talked about increasing investment in rural areas through housing associations and referred to the programme, which had been announced, of schemes for communities with fewer than 1,000 people. He referred also to providing low-cost homes. He said that, when the scheme was in place, it would provide 1,500 homes for rent in small villages and 350 homes a year for local sales. He talked about a scheme of repurchasing former shared-ownership dwellings when the occupiers move on.
    What has happened to that scheme? I understand that it has not been possible to put the scheme together in a way in which, according to lawyers, it will work. I should like an update on what has happened to the scheme to provide more low-cost, low-rent and affordable homes in rural areas. The Government made great play of the scheme when it was announced. When will bricks be placed on the mortar and when will the houses come into being?
    I referred also to the remarks of the chairman of the Rural Development Commission, Lord Vinson, who is certainly not a supporter of our party—he is not a member of it. He said, and I agreed, that, on average, we need only a handful of homes in every sizeable village, but they must be affordable homes.
    When I was the Opposition spokesman on housing, I suggested geographically rounding off communities. Like most other people, I do not want urban sprawl, and I do not want to destroy the countryside. I do not regard the countryside as a jigsaw puzzle or the lid on a chocolate box, which classy marketeers tell us it is all about. That is not the reality of life in rural areas when youngsters are forced to move away from villages and small towns and away from their families and jobs because they cannot possibly afford the massive prices for very small dwellings because of the dislocation of prices in rural areas. That problem must be met. I do not see action on the ground.

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    On 5 April, the Minister made it clear to me that work was in hand. I still do not see the difficulty, and if the Minister introduces a planning Bill he will get my support.
    Smaller developments in smaller villages and towns can be achieved—there is much academic work to prove that. One would not face the problem of Foxley Wood and the like, although there may be occasions when new small towns should be developed.
    I believe that the concept that I have outlined is sustainable politically and financially. Unless something like that is developed, the problems of rural dwellers will get even worse. Ministers must come to terms with that because they have ignored the problem of rural dwellers for too long.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I let the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) get away with it, but I now appeal for brevity. As so many hon. Members wish to speak, voluntary restraint would be helpful.
    8.50 pm
    Mr. Robin Squire: It is unfortunate in a debate lasting just two and a half hours that some one and a half hours has been taken up by contributions by the Front Benches. My comment does not, however, reflect on the content of those speeches. Accordingly, I shall try to set an example by being brief.
    I declare at the outset that, as all the House knows, I have been a board member of Shelter since 1983. That fact is occasionally used by each side of the House in support of their argument and I assume on that basis that they are fairly balanced. I should also declare, as recorded in the Register of Members' Interests, that I am director of a group of companies that rent out properties.
    There is a seductive glamour about the use of capital receipts and it was especially prevalent when I was wearing my local government hat. The Government's stance has been attacked, but, in truth, the issue is simple. If one believes that housing needs broadly approximate to the arising of capital housing receipts, one has an argument. I believe that there is virtually no connection between housing needs and the arising of receipts. Therefore, some system akin to that used now by the Government for allocating permission to borrow to local authorities with lower receipts is essential. That practice would be followed by any Government—no post-war Government have introduced controls on capital borrowing.
    There is understandable dismay on both sides of the Chamber at the sight of people living rough in our major cities. The Daily Telegraph was right when it said in June:
    "In a civilised society it is unacceptable to have people sleeping on the streets because they have nowhere to go."
    Similar scenes are repeated in other western countries, but that does not reduce our concern, although it may temper the more extreme political comments made. The Minister and the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) set out some of the circumstances and social background to the problem. I judge that it is the responsibility of Government, local authorities and the various agencies connected with them to deal with this problem. Other than personal choice, there should be no reason for people to live rough in the streets or under cardboard.
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    The Government have launched a sustained and welcome series of initiatives. Tonight my hon. Friend outlined another six, but time does not allow me to comment on them in detail. One initiative relates to people with surplus property or rooms who do not want to be involved in what they see as the palaver of renting and engaging tenants. The initiative will enable those people to engage housing associations to do it for them. Those associations will guarantee them a rate of return. Anything that encourages such people is welcome. All the initiatives are welcome, though overdue, and form part of the solution for which we seek.
    I also welcome—I would, wouldn't I?—the £2 million initiative announced a few months ago by my hon. Friend the Minister. That initiative will enable the development of a nationwide framework of advice centres, essentially run by Shelter and the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux—NACAB. That initiative wisely draws on Shelter's knowledge and expertise and it is designed to encourage young people, where possible, to remain in their local area rather than to drift into the big cities, with all the attendant difficulties that that causes.
    Tonight little mention has been made of the problem of the mentally handicapped. Many have now been released into the community, but in some instances they are inadequate, unable to house themselves and perhaps institutionalised. I am aware that the Department of Health will launch an initiative on that in the near future. However, the problems of the mentally ill are extremely pressing as they form a significant part of those who are currently homeless. We owe it to them to announce that initiative as soon as possible.
    The hon. Member for Dagenham is one of the acceptable faces of the Labour party. His acceptance of guilt and past ideological sins was touching, but had he studied the faces behind him, let alone left the Chamber and spoken to many Labour party councillors, he would have discovered a less than equivalent atonement.
    The Labour party and those who run the large council housing empires have welcomed the advent of housing associations in their much enhanced role with all the enthusiasm of people eating sheep's eyes for the first time. When the Labour party considers the rest of the private-rented sector, it does not like or understand it. The Labour party has forgotten that every extra right for a tenant is an extra responsibility or loss to a putative landlord.
    I agree with the Minister that the Labour party wants to turn the clock back because it is wedded to the public sector and the belief that it knows better. I do not know why, as the housing record of far too many Labour authorities is too depressing whether judged on the number of properties empty, the size of rent arrears or their practice of opposing by every reasonable legal way people wanting to exercise their right to buy. I cannot believe that that record can act as an example to the Labour party as, whichever way one looks at it, the picture is grim.
    Last week there was a fascinating editorial in The Sunday Times on a wide range of issues of which housing was but a part. That editorial was not uncritical of the Government and the gist of it was that more public spending was not the solution to most of our problems. It noted:
    "Overall spending on public services was 15 per cent. higher in 1989–90 than it was during the last year of the last

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    Labour government. So much for the 'vicious cuts of the brutal Thatcher regime' … The idea that Britain can be cleansed of public squalor by spending more money on public services is a widely believed nonsense. What nearly every public service needs is not more money, but more competition."
    Nothing would increase the standard of rented property more than to have several would-be landlords clamouring for one tenant—that has been demonstrated in other areas of necessity such as food and clothing. Instead the landlord has been frightened away by the fear of a possible future Labour Government—not lessened by tonight's contributions. All housing reforms should be judged on the acid test: will they increase the supply of rented property efficiently? The article concluded:
    "At least the government realises what needs to be done. Labour prefers the soft option of simply promising to spend much more on monopoly public services, which on present evidence most often makes them worse."
    For those and other reasons, I oppose the Labour motion.
    8.58 pm
    Mr. Ronnie Fearn: The Government may well claim that never have so many people owned their own houses, and that that is, of course, because of Government policies. But they must also claim that never have so many people been homeless, sleeping rough on the streets, in derelict buildings, in substandard lodgings, hostels or bed-and-breakfast accommodation. That is also a direct result of Government policy. There is no doubt that in the past 10 years there has been a sharp increase in the number of homeless, well above any expected trend. A report commissioned by the Joseph Rowntree memorial trust, "Homeless in Britain", shows that every day an average 1,000 households apply to local councils for help and that during the past 10 years, more than 1 million households have been registered as homeless by local authorities.
    The problem is no longer a phenomenon of our largest cities. People are sleeping on our streets, in unused buildings, temporary accommodation and other unsuitable places right across this land of ours. My own area of Southport, in Sefton, north-west England, has a homeless problem, which has been growing for the past few years as the local authority finds its hands tied with restrictions on housing finance, and social services departments find it increasingly difficult, because of their restricted resources, to assist people who are homeless through no fault of their own. Such people have been turned out of hospitals and other institutions as a result of the Government's policy of closing down such homes without providing an alternative means of care or an alternative place to live.
    Such short-term measures as that announced by the Minister for Housing and Planning on 22 June to provide £15 million for additional subsidies and subsidised accommodation for the single homeless, may give some small relief. However, I fear that it may create more problems than it will solve. Until we recognise the underlying causes of homelessness and instigate a programme to combat them, the long-term prospects for Britain's homeless are bleak.
    Another problem that I fear such short-term measures may create is to put pressure on the police force to use the Vagrancy Act 1824 and other laws to move people off the streets. To give people who are already down and out a criminal record as well will do little to enhance their prospects of finding permanent housing. If there is any
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    form of compulsion attached to the programme, it is likely to be defeated before it gets off the ground. Young people may rebel against it, particularly if they can be compelled to enter an institutionalised system, of which many of them have had experience and are trying to avoid.
    There will also be a problem finding buildings with long-term leases at a reasonable cost. That will not be an easy task in the south-east. There will be problems in finding the staff and volunteers to run such centres. Many of the young people on our streets are vulnerable. What safeguards will there be to ensure that someone placed in a position of trust can be trusted? I fear that short-term measures will serve only to paper over the cracks in time for the general election. Once the young people who sleep on our streets are safely hidden in hostels and dormatories, the issue of Britain's homeless will be put on the back burner.
    Those are the problems that arise from short-term measures, but I must not spend any more time on that subject because it will deter from the main argument, which is to identify solutions for the causes of homelessness. There is no dispute—or should not be—that the single, most important cause of homelessness is the lack of affordable housing units. The blame for that can be laid directly at the feet of the Government. Due to the Government's policy to reduce public spending, their dislike of local government and their utter contempt for anything that might be seen as public service, the provision of social services and social housing by local government has been virtually destroyed.
    The right-to-buy policy is not, in itself, a mistake, and the principle behind it is to be welcomed. Encouragement should be given to the voluntary and, in some cases, private sector to increase their contribution to the provision of housing, particularly affordable housing units. What is wrong is the way in which the Government have approached and administered that policy. The Government have failed to recognise—or perhaps chosen to ignore—the fact that in any society there will always be a need for social housing and housing at affordable rents and prices.
    The right-to-buy programme, when coupled with restrictions on the use of capital receipts, has resulted in a critical shortage of such housing. In 1979, the number of new council houses built was 79,009. In 1989, that figure dropped to a mere 14,925. At the same time, the numbers on waiting lists requiring accommodation had increased from 741,000 in 1983 to 1,268,000 in 1988. That is the scale of the problem. The Government's attempts to move the emphasis of the provision of social housing to the voluntary and private sectors have failed, because they do not understand the nature of the matter with which they are dealing, and because they have not enabled the individual to acquire the means to obtain access to affordable housing.
    The pressure on housing associations to take up the slack, accompanied by a reduction in central Government funds, has meant that they have had to bridge the gap between public and private sector funding through the raising of rents. In effect, they have had to move up market. The purpose of housing associations was originally to provide for the more vulnerable groups—those on low incomes, and the elderly. However, Government pressure has forced them into the business of catering for the conventional household and those more able to pay, rather than those in need. Consequently,

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    access to permanent affordable housing for the traditional clients of housing associations has been further reduced. The sorry saga surrounding the administration and funding of the Housing Corporation is now undermining confidence in housing associations in general, and provision of all types of homes by that process is consequently under threat.
    Women have possibly been the hardest hit by current housing policy. I recommend to the Government—and to all parties—the excellent Shelter publication, "Women Losing Out", which points out that housing policies are based on assumptions about the family, and about women's role within families. The policy is designed on the assumption that the nuclear family is the norm, whereas it accounts for only 28 per cent. of households. One-parent families with one young child represent 40 per cent. of the homeless. More than 50,000 one-parent households in Britain become homeless in a year, according to the Joseph Rowntree report. In an era that promotes home ownership at the expense of public housing, women's housing options have been drastically reduced. Their traditionally low incomes and employment prospects create vast inequalities in access to housing between men and women.
    The Government's housing policy is now based on the ability to pay rather than on need. The housing Acts of 1988 and 1989 have increased the difficulties of those who are unable to buy. They have reduced security of tenure, introduced higher rents and reduced benefits, owing to the system of assessment of what it is reasonable to pay rather than what the tenant is paying for. Despite all their efforts, the Government have failed to attract the private sector back to rented accommodation. The measures about which we have heard tonight will not affect that either. The private sector still accounts for only 10 per cent. of rented provision, and much of that is to students and single professionals rather than to families.
    I was interested to read in the Observer last Sunday that, owing to the high cost of living in the south and south-east, northern universities are expecting 50,000 extra students in September and landlords are already preparing their welcome with plans to increase rents by 15 to 20 per cent. and an insistence on 12-month contracts, although the academic year is only 32 weeks long. Students and some other young people increasingly find that they are in a no-win situation, with rents payable in advance. For students whose grants are payable term by term and for young people on social security which is paid in arrears, the chance of finding a permanent roof over their head is slim.
    The housing crisis in Britain will get worse as high mortgage rates and ever-increasing rents push people into arrears. In 1979 there were 2,530 repossessions; in 1989, there were 13,780. That figure is bound to climb, as will the number of evictions from rented property.
    I am intrigued to know how the Government intend to square the conflict in their advice. Perhaps the Minister will answer that question. As inflation bites and unemployment rises, their philosophy demands that they encourage young and old alike to get on their bike and look for a job. As the housing crisis deepens and homelessness is rampant, the Government's advice appears to be to stay put, as the pavements of London and other large cities are not paved with gold. Indeed, they are
    944
    more likely to be paved with Britain's homeless. Because of the housing crisis in rural and urban areas alike, such advice is useless.
    What can we do about the problem? We must start from the premise that the country believes that the Government have a duty to ensure that everyone has access to affordable housing. I urge the Government to start towards achieving that aim by removing many of the restrictions that they have placed on local authorities. The top priority must be the release of capital receipts to enable local authorities to replenish stock, by providing houses themselves, by allowing housing associations to cater for the more traditional client, or through partnership with the private sector.
    Another priority is to bring existing stock up to standard. Where necessary, there should be powers to purchase homes or to carry out repairs to empty private sector homes whose owners have refused to bring them up to a habitable standard. It is a tragedy and a sin that so many properties are empty. In May 1988 there were 23,000 such homes in the public sector, of which only 4,100 were available for rent. According to the Minister for Housing and Planning in an article in the Municipal Journal on 15 June, there were 600,000 vacant properties in the private sector.
    I should like to see the Housing Corporation retained, at least in principle, and it should be given more funds. I should welcome changes to the way in which we define "homeless" and changes to the social security system to prevent the policy working against the young and the single homeless and especially against women who, because of our present system, remain trapped in unbearable situations that are often dangerous.
    We need to change the housing benefit system so that it reflects the true cost of rents. That could be combined with the introduction of housing cost relief, a policy advocated by my party in our policy document "Housing, a time for Action", and it would apply to home buyers and people who rent. Affordable housing for all is more than the provision of bricks and mortar. Among other things, it is about the economy, our tax system, our communities, planning and the environment. Our policy document contains innovative ideas for the provision of decent housing. I commend it to the Minister and to Conservative Members.
    9.11 pm
    Sir Charles Irving: Many hon. Members have spoken about the release of capital receipts, and I think that the Minister also mentioned it. I hope that he will be able to assure us that that matter has a high priority. At a time when the nation has a housing crisis it is utterly ridiculous to sit on millions of pounds that could be put to good use. The money was raised by local authorities on the understanding that they would be able to reinvest it. That has not happened and the freezing of the funds is causing considerable distress. The money is there for a purpose for which it is not being used.
    I wish to speak about the people who are at the bottom of the pile. I have the pleasure of being chairman of Stonham housing association. Most hon. Members attend their surgeries on Saturday mornings. At one time that was a fairly relaxed affair. However, every surgery that I attend becomes harder and more distressing. People come to me with the seemingly insoluble problem of having nowhere

    945
    to go. I am sure that all hon. Members have met such people in their surgeries. Women about to go into hospital to have a baby do not have the slightest idea where they will go when they come out. What greater stress could one impose upon a person?
    In general, the Stonham housing association picks up the debris of the nation, those who are at the bottom of the pile. We provide accommodation for about 10,500 people a day and we provide for all those whom Christians in every street sympathise about but do not want to do anything to help.
    I have been in the House for some years, and in housing debate after housing debate I have heard Ministers from both parties say we should be doing various things. For example, they have said that they will ensure that houses belonging to the services—the armed forces and the police—are brought into occupation, as we do not need so many empty houses. I am sorry to say that nothing much has happened.
    I hope that the thoughts that the Minister shared with us tonight will bring about some fundamental changes. Unless they do, organisations such as Stonham, the Salvation Army and many others that take care of the sad people in the community will close.
    My organisation is satisfied that our finances will just about get us through another year. But unless there is some improvement in the complicated and nonsensical bureaucracy that has crept into the housing system, we expect that many organisations will have to close because there will be no money.
    In London there are 75,000 single homeless people, and there is cardboard city. One does not have to go far from here to see the homeless. When I am on my way home I find old ladies sleeping in the bushes just down the road. It is sickening, and no hon. Member could find any funny feature in it, as it is horrifying.
    The problem is not entirely caused by lack of money; we have to care about what happens to these people. If the various types of empty accommodation that hon. Members from both sides of the House have mentioned were used, we would not have a housing list, We would not have the misery that exists at present. We would not have people shuddering because a hostel might be put next door to them, and they are worried that it would not be attractive for their street, or that it might affect the value of their property.
    Even in my constituency, in Cheltenham, there are many empty properties. I am not making a political point, but the town is under the control of the Liberals. People come to my advice bureau and tell me that they walk round the town and see empty houses and flats owned by the local authority.
    Local authorities have much to answer for. They are so dilatory about carrying out the repairs and maintenance which would enable properties to be occupied that absurd situations arise. Young people with three children are put on the top floor of a 10-storey block. The mix of people in such blocks of flats sometimes causes indescribable trouble. Anti-social behaviour between neighbours increases week by week and sadly it often ends up with someone going to prison.
    A lot can be done without the investment of vast sums of money, because we have already allocated millions of pounds for housing which could be better invested than it has been in the past.
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    Stonham, other similar organisations and thousands of voluntary workers give their time to nurse the mentally ill, who would otherwise go to prison because the hospitals that used to accommodate them are no longer available. All those people are being looked after by volunteers and a splendid professional team which has a right to expect to be paid. Unless we and my hon. Friend the Minister can find some better way of caring for people and paying the bill, there will be nowhere for even the sick to go.
    9.19 pm
    Mr Dennis Turner: When the history of the 1980s comes to be written, one of the Government's real and unforgivable failures will be their lack of a comprehensive and cohesive housing policy. That failure has condemned millions or our citizens to live in inadequate homes and thousands to be without accommodation altogether.
    Almost immediately upon taking office, the Government began to cut the housing improvement programme which the Labour Government had developed extensively in the 1970s and which raised to modern standards the amenities of many hundreds of inter-war council houses. Pre-1919 terraced housing, with outside toilets and sub-standard kitchens and bathrooms, cried out for improvement and major internal and external repairs were needed to prevent them from falling down.
    The Government's response has been to drip feed that sector with small and completely unrealistic funds, leading to the outrageous situation in the 1990s of much decrepit and unhygienic housing in all our major towns and cities. Had the level of funding in real terms under the previous Labour Government been continued, many of those houses would now have been improved and many thousands of families would be living in more pleasant and environmentally acceptable conditions.
    Equally worrying is the way in which the Government have, at every opportunity, sought to weaken and frustrate the role of public housing authorities in planning and servicing local housing provision within their communities. All manner of devices have been invented in order to remove local government from that important social policy area of human need.
    Legislation has directed powers and finance to housing associations through the Housing Corporation with all the attendant difficulties and demarcation problems. There is great pressure on some housing associations to take on more responsibility in housing than they are capable of dealing with.
    The Labour party recognises that housing associations have a positive role to play, but they should work in partnership with local government, the special needs housing sector and the important and emerging co-operative housing sector.
    Much more devious has been the Government's promotion of the private sector. Insurance and property development companies have been encouraged to move into the private housing sector and to buy up housing estates and parcels of council houses, all complete with sitting tenants, in order to deprive local authorities of their historic and accepted housing role.
    The Government have been unable to resist the attractive prospect of giving their friends in the City major capital gains through long-term property values and the ability to make huge financial gains by imposing massive

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    rent increases on the poor tenants involved. High powered propaganda accompanied the Government's ideological separation from fairness and common sense. Thank goodness council tenants in Britain have dispatched that crazy notion to the dustbin of history by voting overwhelmingly against housing action trusts for their estates.
    Once again, there is an absence of compassion in the Government's treatment of the thousands of elderly and handicapped citizens who are condemned to live their lives in accommodation wholly unsuited to their special needs. Bungalows and specially adapted accommodation for the elderly and the handicapped are at a premium in almost all areas. In my locality, it was recorded recently that about 2,500 elderly and disabled people were competing for the 50 bungalows available for letting. On that basis, many will die without having benefited from the well-being that such accommodation can bestow.
    In addition, there is the misery and degradation of homelessness for many thousands of people in the Prime Minister's caring society; the uphill struggle for millions of people trying to meet record mortgage and rent payments; and, as we are now witnessing, the collapse of the private housing sector. In this debate, we are again presented with a classic picture of Tory indifference in the midst of irrefutable evidence of a major social need in housing which continues to go unmet.
    9.27 pm
    Mr. Timothy Raison: Unlike the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-East (Mr. Turner), I believe that the Government have had considerable housing achievements to their credit during the past decade. The outstanding achievement has been the enormous stimulus to owner-occupation through the introduction of the right to buy, but in other respects also our housing stock is clearly better. It is interesting to note that, even during the past few years, there has been a marked improvement in the quality of local authority housing, certainly in my constituency. That is largely a product of the fact that capital receipts could not be spent on new building—or only a limited amount—and as a result a great deal of money has been available for improving council stock, and there have been substantial improvements.
    The focus of the debate is, rightly, not on owner-occupation, but on the problems for those who cannot afford to buy houses and therefore have to look for low-cost rented housing. That is now the real priority in housing policy, and I hope that my right hon. Friend and his colleagues will accept that. As we have heard from a number of hon. Members, the problem has been made worse by the increase in family breakdowns and the increased number of one-parent families. I do not share the view that that is a trend about which nothing can be done. However, I recognise that it is putting pressure on local authority and low-cost housing.
    Aylesbury Vale, in my constituency—and I am happy to talk about this after what the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) said—spans both rural and urban housing. There has been a steady rate of
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    council building until recently, and currently there is a genuine waiting list that can be measured in hundreds, certainly not in thousands.
    I am concerned that there may be real trouble ahead. I listened to what my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Sir C. Irving) said about what was happening in his advice bureau. I would not phrase it as dramatically as he did, but I am aware of an increasing pressure from less-well-off people who are trying to find somewhere to live. Constituencies such as mine will be in significant trouble during the next decade or two unless further action is taken because council building will virtually come to an end. It has almost no housing investment programme allocation in the current year, although it had and still has a fairly steady rate of building. It appears that, by next year, only about 16 buildings will be erected by the council within the Aylesbury Vale area. We are disappointed that we have no allocation for the kind of equity sharing programmes that, in principle, have much to commend them.
    The sharp drop in council building would be fine if we could be confident that the increased demand would be taken up by housing association construction. Local authorities in my constituency have been active in pursuing that option, and Chiltern local authority has successfully converted the whole of its housing stock to a housing association. In Aylesbury, where the pressure is greater, we have encouraged housing associations, and they have shown interest—recognising that even fairly affluent places such as Buckinghamshire have housing needs.
    However, when it comes to the crunch, associations find it difficult to build the houses that local authorities cannot provide. That partly has to do with the drying up of Housing Corporation funding. No doubt that is a problem brought about by its success—and I accept the remarks of my hon. Friend the Minister in that respect—but the difficulty remains that it takes time for housing associations that move into an area where there has been very little general purpose association activity to get off the mark.
    If the Government are to rely on the Housing Corporation as the main instrument of providing low-cost housing, it is important to my constituency and others that resources are made available to the Housing Corporation for it to do its job. I hope that when my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary winds up he will say more about that aspect than did my hon. Friend the Minister.
    The private rented sector has also featured in this debate. My right hon. and hon. Friends and I welcome the comments of my hon. Friend the Minister about new means of encouraging the private rented sector. It is difficult in areas like mine to do a great deal very rapidly because they do not have large numbers of Victorian houses available for conversion into private rented housing. That is not the nature of property in my constituency, and it is a problem elsewhere also.
    Can new construction for private renting be encouraged? I do not share the horror of some Opposition Members of private money being invested in housing and making a profit. That is a perfectly desirable activity, and I am all for encouraging it. There was certainly some evidence of ambivalence among Opposition Members on that issue. The real problem is providing an adequate economic return on the investment necessary to develop low-cost private rented housing.

    949
    We need social housing and to give backing to the Housing Corporation, but I still believe that there is scope for new council housing. One of its merits is that it provides an avenue into owner-occupation in a way that housing association property does not. Many people in my constituency have moved on from renting new local authority housing to buying those properties, and have turned them into good owner-occupied houses. It would be a pity if that process were to end.
    The question of council rents has not featured greatly in today's debate. Clearly they should be reasonable. It is true that they are backed, by and large, by a fairly generous housing benefit system, but it was a mistake to press for a £4.50 rent increase in areas such as mine in April. That was not really necessary, and it is particularly unfortunate that it coincided with the introduction of the community charge and higher water charges. I hope that when next year the question of the assumed rent increases expected by the Department of the Environment arises, my hon. Friend the Minister will do all that he can to contain them within very reasonable limits.
    Although there is an underlying assumption that rents in the council sector should move more towards market levels, which has an element of wisdom, many people in constituencies such as mine, which are fairly prosperous, nevertheless do not have higher incomes than their counterparts in the north of England or other areas, where the cost of housing is deemed to be lower. If someone happens to work in the health service or in local government on relatively low pay, the pay is exactly the same as it is for someone who works in Lancashire, Northumberland or elsewhere. It is not reasonable to expect people on the same level of pay in other parts of the country to pay higher local authority council rents.
    Housing for the less-well-off is of considerable importance. It is important politically. I am sure that my hon. Friends are aware of that. It is also important for the well-being of our people. I hope that we can bring to its conclusion the drive, energy and success that we have shown in tackling the question of owner-occupation.
    9.35 pm
    Mr. David Trimble: Initially I was reluctant to speak in this debate because the motion, with its references to the Housing Act 1988 and to urban and rural areas in Britain, seemed more a Great Britain than a United Kingdom motion. After I made my maiden speech, one Conservative Member said to me that he hoped that I would speak in United Kingdom debates and not limit myself to Northern Ireland matters. However, if I am to contribute to United Kingdom debates, United Kingdom debates must be held.
    The motion refers mainly to the Housing Act 1988. I have heard rumours that that Act may be extended shortly to Northern Ireland. That would be worth examining. I welcome the extension of home ownership, which has been one of the chief achievements of the Government. I am also glad that they realise that the extension of home ownership will go only so far and that it is also necessary to maintain the rented sector, both public and private. The public sector should not be limited.
    We need to expand and help the private rented sector. The chief measure in the 1988 Act was to bring rents up to market levels in the hope that such rents would increase supply. As I said to the Minister the other week, the
    950
    experience at home is quite the opposite. We have had no rent control on new-build properties for 30 years but there has not been a significant increase in the supply. It could be argued that market rents should be introduced independently because it is slightly unfair to expect the private landlord to subsidise people and we should not deprive them of the income that their property would otherwise command. However, moving to market rents is not enough to solve the problem. We must consider other matters.
    Obviously, an increase in supply is desirable. I was glad to hear that changes will be made on the planning side and that planning controls will be relaxed. That should not be a matter of rushing off into green field sites to build. One should look to urban areas where much land could be made available. Moreover, planning difficulties are not always the fault of public corporations and local authorities. It is often the fault of the planning authorities, which take far too long to arrive at decisions. I hope that the Minister will tackle that matter.
    Several hon. Members mentioned empty housing. I noted with interest that the Minister hinted at financial penalties for public authorities which have empty houses on their hands. I did not hear him suggest any equivalent financial penalty when private property remains empty. Perhaps he will think about that. Such a penalty might go some way to increasing supply. However, an increase in supply may not be sufficient. Even with an increased supply, some people will not be able to enter the market. We must consider ways of assisting people into the market. The watchword must be that we must subsidise people, not property. I should like to see a much broader approach to helping people to enter the market. Together with some increase on the supply side, that might bring housing within people's range.
    Within the Minister's six-point plan to tackle those problems, I noted his reference to speeding up legal procedures. I hope that that will not deprive people of their rights to proceedings in court. The existing procedures for getting orders for possession are fair and should not be changed. However, the enforcement of orders that have been granted needs to be examined as delays occur far too often.
    Because of lack of time, I shall curtail my comments, but I should like to make a couple of points about the change of landlord provisions in the 1988 Act. Let me sound a warning against the extension of any of those procedures to Northern Ireland as that would open up considerable dangers. Paramilitary groups might apply to acquire public authority estates, and one could not be sure that the Northern Ireland Office would be sufficiently astute to catch them out and stop them. Other bodies such as insurance companies and building societies might seek to take over estates. The danger is that they would be softer targets than the public authorities for pressure from paramilitary groups, although the record of the Housing Executive is pretty bad. But that is another matter.
    Housing associations make a valuable contribution and have done a considerable amount to increase the supply of housing. They provide an alternative to public authority housing and they should be encouraged, as competition is a good thing. The housing associations are mostly controlled by the Northern Ireland Housing Executive—the public authority to which they should be providing an alternative. With the best will in the world, the Housing Executive often hampers those authorities, although it is

    951
    not consciously hostile to them, so a different regime is required, and had time permitted perhaps I would have elaborated on that.
    9.41 pm
    Mr. Clive Soley: The Government are charged with incompetence in their housing policy and with a callous disregard for the welfare of the people of Britain. It is not true that the debate concerns only the rented sector, as the right hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Raison) said. It is very much about the lack of affordable accommodation to rent or for sale in rural and urban areas. Let the Government make no mistake about it: if they simply try to mop up some of the homelessness in London by providing a few extra night shelters, they will find that the pot continues to fill up, not least from areas such as Aylesbury.
    The growing pressure on housing in rural areas is forcing people out of those areas to the seaside towns and other cities. They move into temporary accommodation, often holiday lets, and become homeless when the accommodation is required.
    The desperate folly of the Government's policy was to attempt to end council housing without putting anything in its place. I understand that the Government do not like council housing. I think that they are wrong, as do the people who occupy council housing. The people who desperately want to get out of the private sector also think they are wrong. That is why Tory and Labour Members speak to far more people asking for a council house or a housing association house than wishing to move into the private sector.
    The right hon. Member for Aylesbury was totally and utterly wrong to say that the housing stock is improving. It is decaying fast. The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head. If he will not take it from me, I implore him to ask the Association of District Councils. According to that Conservative-controlled organisation, between £35 billion and £50 billion is needed in housing investment. It is said that the housing stock needs to last for 1,000 years if we are to avoid further decline. Previously the figure was 200 years, and that worries the housing experts. The Government's analysis is desperately and seriously wrong.
    Several times, the Minister and Conservative Members said that they want to revive the private rented sector. I do not object to that; as long as there are good landlords, I am not fussed. However, the Minister, with his pathetic list of six things, which included issuing documents, is trying to revive a dead parrot. The reason why it is dead is nothing to do with the rent Acts but everything to do with housing finance. That is why, to their credit, the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson), and the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, who was previously the Secretary of State for the Environment and is not normally regarded as a logical man, wanted to end mortgage income tax relief. They wanted to end the subsidy to the buying sector because they knew that either the subsidy to the rented sector had to be increased to make market rents affordable or the subsidy to those who were buying had to be stopped.
    Labour Members argue that until the Government reform housing finance they cannot get away from the fact that the housing purchase sector and the rented sector
    952
    must be subsidised. No matter how much the Conservative party wants to get rid of mortgage income tax relief to revive the rented sector, it will not succeed until it makes it almost impossible for increasing numbers of people to buy, even if interest rates come down significantly. That is why house purchase is beyond the reach of between 50 and 60 per cent. of families in southern England. Until they address and understand that problem, it will only get worse.
    Much of the thinking of the Tory party can be gleaned from the press releases issued by the Minister. He said:
    "The Government are determined that there should be no excuse for sleeping-out on the streets."
    The image is of thousands of people tucked up nice and warm in their beds at night thinking, "Isn't it a nuisance; the Government will not give me an excuse to sleep on the streets." People do not want to sleep on the streets. The Government may try to turn these people into scapegoats and to portray them as wanting to sleep on the streets, but why is it that in all western countries, except in those that follow housing policies similar to ours, such as the United States, the problem is nowhere near as severe, and in most cases does not exist?
    As I have told the Minister, the big difference between today and 1979 is that when I was a probation officer in the worst areas of London around King's Cross, if a homeless person said to me "I want accommodation", I could obtain it for him, whereas today I could not. People must queue for cardboard boxes. That shows the success of the Tory party's housing policy. [Interruption.] It is true and I can prove it to Conservative Members. There is a queue also for bed-and-breakfast accommodation, and some people have been in such accommodation for two or three years.
    The Tory party promised that local authorities would be able to use their capital receipts to invest in housing, but that was not allowed. The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Sir C. Irving) was absolutely right: local authorities could use that money well. It is a tragedy that they are not being allowed to do so.
    What do the Government intend to do about the crisis in the Housing Corporation? They said:
    "It is proposed that in future an increasing proportion of new development by housing associations should be funded by a mixture of grant and private finance. Not only will this make the available public resources stretch further but the injection of market disciplines will itself lead to greater efficiency and make associations more independent and more responsible for the quality and effectiveness of their investment decisions and the competence of their management."
    I can only echo the Conservative chair of the housing committee in Plymouth: if local authorities had behaved as the Housing Corporation has behaved, they would be drummed out.
    The problem is the Government's problem, and we know that the figures in the Department of the Environment's White Paper on public expenditure plans are wrong and misleading. I want to know from the Minister not wild guesses or his invention of 40,000 houses but what the approvals will be for 1990–91 to 1992–93.
    We need to know whether the Minister is prepared to see the Housing Corporation being examined again by the Public Accounts Committee. Anyone who knows anything about the matter knows that the Public Accounts Committee was deeply worried about the Housing Corporation and knows that its report, which will be out soon, will be of no comfort to the corporation. The

    953
    tragedy is that the Government, not the Housing Corporation, are truly responsible because the Government created the scheme.
    The Government say, once again, that they will punish local authorities for keeping properties empty. I am opposed to properties, whether public or private, being kept empty. However, we know that, on average, 2.1 per cent of local authority stock, 3.1 per cent. of housing association stock and 4.5 per cent. of private sector stock is empty. No less than 18 per cent. of Government property is empty. Much of it is in London and includes police officers' houses, prison officers' houses and Ministry of Defence houses, which have been empty for up to 10 years. Will the Government penalise themselves for keeping literally thousands of houses empty? They will not. The Minister may look at his feet and then gaze up at the ceiling; he is responsible for those empty properties. If he penalises local authorities which, on the whole, are good, all he will do is to aggravate the problem.
    The Minister should say what the Labour party says. Where we have examples of bad landlordism, whether by councils, by housing associations or by the Government, we should use one of the other sectors to get those houses into use. We shall say to the private sector what I have been saying to it, successfully, for a long time. There are successful partnerships, but if the Minister believes that he will encourage the letting of flats above shops simply by making it easier to get people out again, he is wrong. The person who has a shop needs the confidence of knowing that if he has a bad tenant who, for example, ruins his stock pouring water through the ceiling, he can get him out, not in six months, but the next day. There is only one way in which to do that without throwing people on to the street and that is to use lease-hack. If the Government would release some of the controls on lease-back, one could achieve that.
    The Opposition object to the way in which the Government have squeezed the private rented sector out of existence. The hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) is right to say that in Northern Ireland 25 per cent. of the rented stock was private in 1957; now it is only 5 per cent. Yet no one has threatened the reintroduction of rent controls in Northern Ireland. The Government's plans do not add up to a sensible policy, as anyone who knows anything about housing knows. If one wants to bring areas into use, one should use sensible lease-back schemes and begin to reform housing finance. One could then deliver the policies that this country needs.
    We cannot continue with a disgrace that is unique to the western world, with the exception of the United States. We have teenage children—I emphasise the word "children" —begging in our streets. It is wrong and we know that it is wrong. It is unnecessary and comes about as a result of an incompetent Government who do not know one end of the housing market from the other.
    9.52 pm
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Christopher Chope): By now, the Opposition must be regretting that they decided to debate the issue of housing today. The hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) treated us to a low-key contribution even by his standards. It was free from
    954
    ideology, but it was also free from ideas. It was seductively bland and, as one of my hon. Friends quipped, no cliche was left untouched.
    By contrast, my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning responded with a devastating critique of—[Interruption.] He did. He made a devastating critique of Labour's hidden manifesto. The Opposition know that they have been found out, which is why they resort to derisive laughter. My hon. Friend showed how the Labour party's basic hostility to the private rented sector had not changed one iota. Only those hon. Members who were in the Chamber witnessed the derision and contempt that my hon. Friend's ideas to promote the private sector received from the Opposition.
    Shortly after my hon. Friend sat down, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) revealed in his own words the prejudice that we know that the Labour party still has. The hon. Gentleman said that being somebody else's landlord was not an acceptable way of earning a living. If it is acceptable to make a profit out of producing and supplying food and clothing, why is not it acceptable to make a profit out of supplying housing? If it is acceptable to earn a living providing rented housing in Germany or France, why is not it acceptable in this country?
    Mr. George Howarth: Before the Minister goes too far with that argument, may I ask him whether there is one aspect of the Housing Act 1988 that he would claim has been successful?
    Mr. Chope: Certainly, there has been a lot of success under the Housing Act 1988. Take tenants' choice, for example. Tenants' choice has shaken to the core the complacency of Labour housing authorities. As a result, even the worst Labour housing authorities now realise that, because there is a choice, they must buck up their standards, otherwise tenants will opt out.
    The Conservative party believes in freeing up the market. We believe in supply side measures. My hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Squire) called for more competition and showed decisively how more competition is needed, rather than more control and restriction, for which the Opposition argue.
    We believe that supply side measures will bring more empty properties back into use. That is true not just in the private sector, but in the public sector, where the introduction of the ring-fenced housing revenue account is already having an impact. Tenants of inefficient councils throughout the country now realise that they will have to pay more in rent or suffer lower standards of service if their council landlords cannot turn round their properties more quickly and make better use of their housing stock.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Sir C. Irving) made an impassioned plea for more of the proceeds of sales to be released for use by the councils. I have to tell my hon. Friend that the local authorities' outstanding debt is about £40 billion. That is a massive debt burden. We think that it is reasonable that, if a council sells an asset, it should use part of the proceeds of the sale to pay back some of its debt. My hon. Friend's own council, Cheltenham, had outstanding debts worth £54 million at 31 March 1989. That is a substantial sum and it is reasonable that, if the council sells some of its assets, it should use some of the proceeds of the sale to repay part of its debt.

    955
    It is the Labour party's policy to borrow and borrow and to saddle future generations with massive burdens. That policy has been referred to again this evening by Opposition Members. It is the policy of Conservative Members to encourage the sale of surplus assets and allow part of those proceeds to be reinvested.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Raison) said that, even in areas such as Aylesbury Vale, families had problems in trying to find housing. I know that that is true. But it is fair to say that in the first quarter of this year only three families in Aylesbury Vale were in bed-and-breakfast accommodation. In Cheltenham, there were no families in bed-and-breakfast accommodation and no one in a hostel. The relative housing needs of those areas have to be compared with the much greater housing needs of the inner cities. Having said that, I should point out that the Housing Corporation's special rural programme is not affected by any legal problem—as the hon. Member for Perry Barr suggested—and, as we know, that programme will provide 1,500 new units per annum for rent and 350 for sale, to be concentrated in villages with a population of less than 1,000. That programme is being brought into effect as we speak. There are still some detailed legal arrangements to be sorted out, but there is no fundamental problem.
    The debate has shown that the Opposition are still clinging to the failed socialist culture of the 1960s and 1970s. They are in favour of curbing the market, stifling enterprise and undermining initiative. This month's copy of "Roof" has a swingeing attack on Labour's housing policies. Albeit reluctantly and with disappointment, "Roof" accepts that the Government and Opposition Members—
    Mr. Allen McKay rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
    Question, That the Question be now put, put and agreed to.
    Question put accordingly, That the original words stand part of the Question:—
    The House divided: Ayes 217, Noes 280.

    Division No. 281]

    [7.10 pm

    AYES

    Abbott, Ms Diane

    Caborn, Richard

    Adams, Allen (Paisley N)

    Callaghan, Jim

    Allen, Graham

    Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

    Alton, David

    Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

    Anderson, Donald

    Campbell-Savours, D. N.

    Archer, Rt Hon Peter

    Canavan, Dennis

    Armstrong, Hilary

    Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

    Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

    Carr, Michael

    Ashton, Joe

    Cartwright, John

    Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

    Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

    Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

    Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

    Beckett, Margaret

    Clay, Bob

    Beith, A. J.

    Clelland, David

    Bell, Stuart

    Clwyd, Mrs Ann

    Benn, Rt Hon Tony

    Cohen, Harry

    Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

    Coleman, Donald

    Bermingham, Gerald

    Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

    Bidwell, Sydney

    Cook, Robin (Livingston)

    Blair, Tony

    Corbett, Robin

    Blunkett, David

    Corbyn, Jeremy

    Boateng, Paul

    Cousins, Jim

    Boyes, Roland

    Cox, Tom

    Bradley, Keith

    Crowther, Stan

    Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

    Cryer, Bob

    Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

    Cummings, John

    Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

    Cunliffe, Lawrence

    Buckley, George J.

    Cunningham, Dr John

    915

    Dalyell, Tam

    Mahon, Mrs Alice

    Darling, Alistair

    Marek, Dr John

    Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

    Marshall, David (Shettleston)

    Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

    Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

    Dewar, Donald

    Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

    Dixon, Don

    Martlew, Eric

    Dobson, Frank

    Maxton, John

    Doran, Frank

    Meacher, Michael

    Dunnachie, Jimmy

    Meale, Alan

    Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

    Michael, Alun

    Eastham, Ken

    Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

    Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E)

    Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

    Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)

    Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

    Fatchett, Derek

    Moonie, Dr Lewis

    Faulds, Andrew

    Morgan, Rhodri

    Fearn, Ronald

    Morley, Elliot

    Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

    Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

    Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)

    Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

    Flannery, Martin

    Mowlam, Marjorie

    Flynn, Paul

    Mullin, Chris

    Foot, Rt Hon Michael

    Murphy, Paul

    Foster, Derek

    Nellist, Dave

    Foulkes, George

    Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

    Fraser, John

    O'Brien, William

    Fyfe, Maria

    O'Neill, Martin

    Galbraith, Sam

    Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

    Galloway, George

    Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

    Garrett, John (Norwich South)

    Parry, Robert

    George, Bruce

    Patchett, Terry

    Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

    Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

    Godman, Dr Norman A.

    Prescott, John

    Gould, Bryan

    Primarolo, Dawn

    Graham, Thomas

    Quin, Ms Joyce

    Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

    Radice, Giles

    Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

    Randall, Stuart

    Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

    Redmond, Martin

    Grocott, Bruce

    Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn

    Harman, Ms Harriet

    Reid, Dr John

    Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

    Richardson, Jo

    Haynes, Frank

    Robinson, Geoffrey

    Heal, Mrs Sylvia

    Rogers, Allan

    Healey, Rt Hon Denis

    Rooker, Jeff

    Henderson, Doug

    Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

    Hinchliffe, David

    Rowlands, Ted

    Hoey, Ms Kate (Vauxhall)

    Ruddock, Joan

    Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

    Salmond, Alex

    Home Robertson, John

    Sedgemore, Brian

    Hood, Jimmy

    Sheerman, Barry

    Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

    Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

    Howells, Geraint

    Shore, Rt Hon Peter

    Hoyle, Doug

    Short, Clare

    Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

    Skinner, Dennis

    Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

    Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

    Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

    Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)

    Illsley, Eric

    Smith, Rt Hon J. (Monk'ds E)

    Janner, Greville

    Smith, J. P. (Vale of Glam)

    Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

    Snape, Peter

    Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

    Soley, Clive

    Kennedy, Charles

    Spearing, Nigel

    Kilfedder, James

    Stott, Roger

    Lambie, David

    Strang, Gavin

    Lamond, James

    Straw, Jack

    Leadbitter, Ted

    Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

    Leighton, Ron

    Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

    Lestor, Joan (Eccles)

    Trimble, David

    Lewis, Terry

    Turner, Dennis

    Litherland, Robert

    Vaz, Keith

    Livsey, Richard

    Wallace, James

    Lofthouse, Geoffrey

    Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

    Loyden, Eddie

    Wareing, Robert N.

    McAllion, John

    Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)

    McAvoy, Thomas

    Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)

    McCartney, Ian

    Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)

    McFall, John

    Williams, Rt Hon Alan

    McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

    Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)

    McKelvey, William

    Wilson, Brian

    McLeish, Henry

    Winnick, David

    McNamara, Kevin

    Wise, Mrs Audrey

    McWilliam, John

    Worthington, Tony

    916

    Wray, Jimmy

    Tellers for the Ayes:

    Young, David (Bolton SE)

    Mr. Martyn Jones and

    Mrs. Llin Golding.

    NOES

    Aitken, Jonathan

    Emery, Sir Peter

    Alexander, Richard

    Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

    Alison, Rt Hon Michael

    Evennett, David

    Allason, Rupert

    Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

    Amery, Rt Hon Julian

    Fallon, Michael

    Amess, David

    Favell, Tony

    Amos, Alan

    Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

    Arbuthnot, James

    Fishburn, John Dudley

    Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

    Fookes, Dame Janet

    Ashby, David

    Forman, Nigel

    Aspinwall, Jack

    Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

    Atkins, Robert

    Forth, Eric

    Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

    Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman

    Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

    Fox, Sir Marcus

    Baldry, Tony

    Franks, Cecil

    Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

    French, Douglas

    Batiste, Spencer

    Fry, Peter

    Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

    Gale, Roger

    Bellingham, Henry

    Gardiner, George

    Bendall, Vivian

    Garel-Jones, Tristan

    Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

    Gill, Christopher

    Benyon, W.

    Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

    Bevan, David Gilroy

    Goodlad, Alastair

    Biffen, Rt Hon John

    Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

    Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

    Gorman, Mrs Teresa

    Boscawen, Hon Robert

    Gorst, John

    Boswell, Tim

    Gow, Ian

    Bottomley, Peter

    Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

    Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

    Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

    Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

    Greenway, John (Ryedale)

    Bowis, John

    Gregory, Conal

    Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes

    Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E')

    Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

    Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

    Brandon-Bravo, Martin

    Ground, Patrick

    Brazier, Julian

    Grylls, Michael

    Bright, Graham

    Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

    Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

    Hague, William

    Browne, John (Winchester)

    Hampson, Dr Keith

    Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

    Hanley, Jeremy

    Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick

    Hannam, John

    Buck, Sir Antony

    Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

    Budgen, Nicholas

    Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

    Burns, Simon

    Harris, David

    Burt, Alistair

    Haselhurst, Alan

    Butcher, John

    Hayes, Jerry

    Butterfill, John

    Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney

    Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

    Hayward, Robert

    Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

    Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

    Carrington, Matthew

    Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

    Carttiss, Michael

    Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE)

    Cash, William

    Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

    Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda

    Hind, Kenneth

    Chope, Christopher

    Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

    Churchill, Mr

    Hordern, Sir Peter

    Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n)

    Howard, Rt Hon Michael

    Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

    Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

    Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

    Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

    Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

    Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

    Colvin, Michael

    Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

    Conway, Derek

    Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

    Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

    Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

    Cormack, Patrick

    Irvine, Michael

    Couchman, James

    Irving, Sir Charles

    Cran, James

    Jack, Michael

    Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

    Jackson, Robert

    Davis, David (Boothferry)

    Janman, Tim

    Day, Stephen

    Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

    Devlin, Tim

    Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

    Dicks, Terry

    Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

    Dorrell, Stephen

    Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

    Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

    Key, Robert

    Dover, Den

    King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

    Dunn, Bob

    King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

    Durant, Tony

    Knight, Greg (Derby North)

    Dykes, Hugh

    Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

    917

    Knowles, Michael

    Oppenheim, Phillip

    Knox, David

    Paice, James

    Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

    Patten, Rt Hon Chris (Bath)

    Lang, Ian

    Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

    Lawrence, Ivan

    Pawsey, James

    Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

    Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

    Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

    Porter, Barry (Wirral S)

    Lightbown, David

    Porter, David (Waveney)

    Lilley, Peter

    Portillo, Michael

    Lord, Michael

    Powell, William (Corby)

    Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

    Raffan, Keith

    McCrindle, Robert

    Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

    Macfarlane, Sir Neil

    Redwood, John

    MacGregor, Rt Hon John

    Renton, Rt Hon Tim

    MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

    Rhodes James, Robert

    Maclean, David

    Riddick, Graham

    McLoughlin, Patrick

    Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

    Madel, David

    Ridsdale, Sir Julian

    Marlow, Tony

    Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm

    Marshall, John (Hendon S)

    Roberts, Sir Wyn (Conwy)

    Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

    Rost, Peter

    Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

    Rowe, Andrew

    Mates, Michael

    Rumbold, Mrs Angela

    Maude, Hon Francis

    Ryder, Richard

    Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

    Sackville, Hon Tom

    Meyer, Sir Anthony

    Sainsbury, Hon Tim

    Miller, Sir Hal

    Sayeed, Jonathan

    Mills, Iain

    Shaw, David (Dover)

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

    Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

    Shelton, Sir William

    Mitchell, Sir David

    Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)

    Moate, Roger

    Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

    Monro, Sir Hector

    Shersby, Michael

    Montgomery, Sir Fergus

    Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

    Moore, Rt Hon John

    Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

    Morris, M (N'hampton S)

    Soames, Hon Nicholas

    Morrison, Sir Charles

    Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W)

    Moss, Malcolm

    Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

    Mudd, David

    Squire, Robin

    Neale, Gerrard

    Stanbrook, Ivor

    Needham, Richard

    Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

    Nelson, Anthony

    Steen, Anthony

    Neubert, Michael

    Stern, Michael

    Nicholls, Patrick

    Stevens, Lewis

    Nicholson, David (Taunton)

    Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

    Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)

    Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

    Norris, Steve

    Stewart, Rt Hon Ian (Herts N)

    Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley

    Stokes, Sir John

    918

    Stradling Thomas, Sir John

    Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

    Sumberg, David

    Warren, Kenneth

    Summerson, Hugo

    Watts, John

    Taylor, Ian (Esher)

    Wells, Bowen

    Taylor, John M (Solihull)

    Wheeler, Sir John

    Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

    Whitney, Ray

    Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

    Widdecombe, Ann

    Temple-Morris, Peter

    Wiggin, Jerry

    Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)

    Wilkinson, John

    Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

    Wilshire, David

    Thorne, Neil

    Winterton, Mrs Ann

    Thornton, Malcolm

    Winterton, Nicholas

    Thurnham, Peter

    Wolfson, Mark

    Townend, John (Bridlington)

    Wood, Timothy

    Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

    Woodcock, Dr. Mike

    Trippier, David

    Yeo, Tim

    Trotter, Neville

    Young, Sir George (Acton)

    Twinn, Dr Ian

    Younger, Rt Hon George

    Vaughan, Sir Gerard

    Waldegrave, Rt Hon William

    Tellers for the Noes:

    Walden, George

    Mr. Sydney Chapman and

    Walker, Bill (T'side North)

    Mr. Irvine Patrick.

    Waller, Gary

    Division No. 282]

    [10 pm

    AYES

    Abbott, Ms Diane

    Bradley, Keith

    Adams, Allen (Paisley N)

    Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

    Allen, Graham

    Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

    Alton, David

    Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

    Anderson, Donald

    Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

    Archer, Rt Hon Peter

    Buckley, George J.

    Armstrong, Hilary

    Caborn, Richard

    Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

    Callaghan, Jim

    Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

    Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

    Ashton, Joe

    Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

    Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

    Campbell-Savours, D. N.

    Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

    Canavan, Dennis

    Beckett, Margaret

    Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

    Beith, A. J.

    Carr, Michael

    Bell, Stuart

    Cartwright, John

    Benn, Rt Hon Tony

    Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

    Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

    Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

    Bermingham, Gerald

    Clay, Bob

    Bidwell, Sydney

    Clelland, David

    Blair, Tony

    Clwyd, Mrs Ann

    Blunkett, David

    Cohen, Harry

    Boateng, Paul

    Coleman, Donald

    Boyes, Roland

    Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

    956

    Cook, Robin (Livingston)

    Loyden, Eddie

    Corbett, Robin

    McAllion, John

    Corbyn, Jeremy

    McAvoy, Thomas

    Cousins, Jim

    McCartney, Ian

    Cox, Tom

    Macdonald, Calum A.

    Crowther, Stan

    McFall, John

    Cryer, Bob

    McKelvey, William

    Cummings, John

    McLeish, Henry

    Cunliffe, Lawrence

    McNamara, Kevin

    Cunningham, Dr John

    McWilliam, John

    Dalyell, Tam

    Mahon, Mrs Alice

    Darling, Alistair

    Marek, Dr John

    Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

    Marshall, David (Shettleston)

    Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

    Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

    Dewar, Donald

    Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

    Dixon, Don

    Martlew, Eric

    Dobson, Frank

    Maxton, John

    Doran, Frank

    Meacher, Michael

    Dunnachie, Jimmy

    Meale, Alan

    Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

    Michael, Alun

    Eastham, Ken

    Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

    Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E)

    Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

    Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)

    Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

    Fatchett, Derek

    Moonie, Dr Lewis

    Faulds, Andrew

    Morgan, Rhodri

    Fearn, Ronald

    Morley, Elliot

    Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

    Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

    Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)

    Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

    Fisher, Mark

    Mowlam, Marjorie

    Flannery, Martin

    Mullin, Chris

    Flynn, Paul

    Murphy, Paul

    Foot, Rt Hon Michael

    Nellist, Dave

    Foster, Derek

    Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

    Foulkes, George

    O'Brien, William

    Fraser, John

    O'Neill, Martin

    Fyfe, Maria

    Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

    Galloway, George

    Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

    Garrett, John (Norwich South)

    Parry, Robert

    George, Bruce

    Patchett, Terry

    Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

    Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

    Godman, Dr Norman A.

    Prescott, John

    Golding, Mrs Llin

    Primarolo, Dawn

    Gould, Bryan

    Quin, Ms Joyce

    Graham, Thomas

    Radice, Giles

    Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

    Randall, Stuart

    Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

    Redmond, Martin

    Grocott, Bruce

    Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn

    Harman, Ms Harriet

    Reid, Dr John

    Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

    Richardson, Jo

    Heal, Mrs Sylvia

    Robinson, Geoffrey

    Healey, Rt Hon Denis

    Rogers, Allan

    Henderson, Doug

    Rooker, Jeff

    Hinchliffe, David

    Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

    Hoey, Ms Kate (Vauxhall)

    Rowlands, Ted

    Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

    Ruddock, Joan

    Home Robertson, John

    Salmond, Alex

    Hood, Jimmy

    Sedgemore, Brian

    Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

    Sheerman, Barry

    Howells, Geraint

    Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

    Hoyle, Doug

    Shore, Rt Hon Peter

    Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

    Short, Clare

    Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

    Skinner, Dennis

    Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

    Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

    Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

    Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)

    Illsley, Eric

    Smith, Rt Hon J. (Monk'ds E)

    Janner, Greville

    Smith, J. P. (Vale of Glam)

    Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

    Snape, Peter

    Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn)

    Soley, Clive

    Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W)

    Spearing, Nigel

    Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

    Steel, Rt Hon Sir David

    Lambie, David

    Stott, Roger

    Lamond, James

    Strang, Gavin

    Leadbitter, Ted

    Straw, Jack

    Leighton, Ron

    Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

    Lestor, Joan (Eccles)

    Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

    Lewis, Terry

    Turner, Dennis

    Litherland, Robert

    Vaz, Keith

    Livingstone, Ken

    Wallace, James

    Livsey, Richard

    Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

    Lofthouse, Geoffrey

    Wareing, Robert N.

    957

    Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)

    Worthington, Tony

    Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)

    Wray, Jimmy

    Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)

    Young, David (Bolton SE)

    Williams, Rt Hon Alan

    Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)

    Tellers for the Ayes:

    Wilson, Brian

    Mr. Frank Haynes and

    Winnick, David

    Mr. Allen McKay.

    Wise, Mrs Audrey

    NOES

    Aitken, Jonathan

    Dover, Den

    Alexander, Richard

    Dunn, Bob

    Alison, Rt Hon Michael

    Durant, Tony

    Allason, Rupert

    Dykes, Hugh

    Amess, David

    Eggar, Tim

    Amos, Alan

    Emery, Sir Peter

    Arbuthnot, James

    Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

    Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

    Evennett, David

    Ashby, David

    Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

    Aspinwall, Jack

    Fallon, Michael

    Atkins, Robert

    Favell, Tony

    Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

    Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

    Baldry, Tony

    Fishburn, John Dudley

    Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

    Fookes, Dame Janet

    Batiste, Spencer

    Forman, Nigel

    Bellingham, Henry

    Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

    Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

    Forth, Eric

    Benyon, W.

    Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman

    Bevan, David Gilroy

    Fox, Sir Marcus

    Biffen, Rt Hon John

    Franks, Cecil

    Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

    French, Douglas

    Boscawen, Hon Robert

    Fry, Peter

    Boswell, Tim

    Gale, Roger

    Bottomley, Peter

    Gardiner, George

    Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

    Garel-Jones, Tristan

    Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

    Gill, Christopher

    Bowis, John

    Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

    Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes

    Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

    Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

    Goodlad, Alastair

    Brandon-Bravo, Martin

    Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

    Brazier, Julian

    Gorman, Mrs Teresa

    Bright, Graham

    Gow, Ian

    Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

    Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

    Browne, John (Winchester)

    Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

    Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

    Greenway, John (Ryedale)

    Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick

    Gregory, Conal

    Buck, Sir Antony

    Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E')

    Budgen, Nicholas

    Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

    Burns, Simon

    Ground, Patrick

    Burt, Alistair

    Grylls, Michael

    Butcher, John

    Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

    Butterfill, John

    Hague, William

    Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

    Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom)

    Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

    Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

    Carrington, Matthew

    Hampson, Dr Keith

    Carttiss, Michael

    Hanley, Jeremy

    Cash, William

    Hannam, John

    Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda

    Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

    Channon, Rt Hon Paul

    Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

    Chapman, Sydney

    Harris, David

    Chope, Christopher

    Haselhurst, Alan

    Churchill, Mr

    Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney

    Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n)

    Hayward, Robert

    Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

    Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

    Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

    Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE)

    Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

    Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

    Colvin, Michael

    Hind, Kenneth

    Conway, Derek

    Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

    Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

    Hordern, Sir Peter

    Cormack, Patrick

    Howard, Rt Hon Michael

    Couchman, James

    Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

    Cran, James

    Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

    Currie, Mrs Edwina

    Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)

    Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

    Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

    Davis, David (Boothferry)

    Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

    Day, Stephen

    Hunt, David (Wirral W)

    Devlin, Tim

    Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

    Dicks, Terry

    Irvine, Michael

    Dorrell, Stephen

    Irving, Sir Charles

    Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

    Jack, Michael

    958

    Jackson, Robert

    Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm

    Janman, Tim

    Roberts, Sir Wyn (Conwy)

    Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

    Rost, Peter

    Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

    Rowe, Andrew

    Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

    Rumbold, Mrs Angela

    Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

    Ryder, Richard

    Key, Robert

    Sackville, Hon Tom

    Kilfedder, James

    Sainsbury, Hon Tim

    King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

    Shaw, David (Dover)

    King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

    Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

    Knight, Greg (Derby North)

    Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

    Knowles, Michael

    Shelton, Sir William

    Knox, David

    Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)

    Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

    Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

    Lang, Ian

    Shersby, Michael

    Lawrence, Ivan

    Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

    Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

    Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

    Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

    Soames, Hon Nicholas

    Lightbown, David

    Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W)

    Lilley, Peter

    Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

    Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)

    Squire, Robin

    Lord, Michael

    Stanbrook, Ivor

    Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

    Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

    MacGregor, Rt Hon John

    Steen, Anthony

    MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

    Stern, Michael

    McLoughlin, Patrick

    Stevens, Lewis

    Madel, David

    Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

    Marlow, Tony

    Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

    Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

    Stewart, Rt Hon Ian (Herts N)

    Mates, Michael

    Stokes, Sir John

    Maude, Hon Francis

    Stradling Thomas, Sir John

    Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

    Sumberg, David

    Meyer, Sir Anthony

    Summerson, Hugo

    Miller, Sir Hal

    Taylor, Ian (Esher)

    Mills, Iain

    Taylor, John M (Solihull)

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

    Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

    Temple-Morris, Peter

    Mitchell, Sir David

    Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)

    Moate, Roger

    Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

    Monro, Sir Hector

    Thorne, Neil

    Montgomery, Sir Fergus

    Thornton, Malcolm

    Moore, Rt Hon John

    Thurnham, Peter

    Morris, M (N'hampton S)

    Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

    Morrison, Sir Charles

    Trippier, David

    Moss, Malcolm

    Trotter, Neville

    Mudd, David

    Twinn, Dr Ian

    Neale, Gerrard

    Vaughan, Sir Gerard

    Needham, Richard

    Walden, George

    Nelson, Anthony

    Walker, Bill (T'side North)

    Neubert, Michael

    Waller, Gary

    Nicholson, David (Taunton)

    Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

    Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)

    Warren, Kenneth

    Norris, Steve

    Watts, John

    Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley

    Wells, Bowen

    Oppenheim, Phillip

    Wheeler, Sir John

    Paice, James

    Whitney, Ray

    Patten, Rt Hon Chris (Bath)

    Widdecombe, Ann

    Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

    Wiggin, Jerry

    Pawsey, James

    Wilkinson, John

    Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

    Wilshire, David

    Porter, Barry (Wirral S)

    Winterton, Mrs Ann

    Porter, David (Waveney)

    Winterton, Nicholas

    Portillo, Michael

    Wolfson, Mark

    Powell, William (Corby)

    Wood, Timothy

    Raffan, Keith

    Woodcock, Dr. Mike

    Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

    Yeo, Tim

    Redwood, John

    Young, Sir George (Acton)

    Renton, Rt Hon Tim

    Younger, Rt Hon George

    Rhodes James, Robert

    Riddick, Graham

    Tellers for the Noes:

    Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

    Mr. Nicholas Baker and

    Ridsdale, Sir Julian

    Mr. Irvine Patnick.

    Question accordingly negatived.
    Question, That the proposed words be there added, put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 30 (Questions on amendments), and agreed to.
    MR. SPEAKER forthwith declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to.
    Resolved,
    That this House congratulates the Government on the success of its housing policies, which have extended the benefits of owner-occupation to two-thirds of all households, achieved better value for money from over £6 billion a year of public expenditure, increasingly focused this assistance on the most in need of it, and greatly widened freedom of choice for tenants in the public and private rented sectors.

    Student Loans
    10.14 pm
    Mr. Jack Straw: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I gave notice of this point of order to Mr. Deputy Speaker, who I thought would be in the Chair. As you will be aware, Mr. Speaker, the Education (Student Loans) Regulations 1990, which we are due to discuss now, were originally laid before the House on 13 June, but were subsequently withdrawn and had to be relaid and redrafted on 25 June, following advice by counsel to the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. The Committee has produced a helpful note for the benefit of all hon. Members, which is available in the Vote Office. At the end it says:
    "Oral evidence from the Department of Education and Science is printed in the Minutes of Evidence of 26th June 1990."
    That oral evidence is important for the purpose of ascertaining why the regulations were laid in their original form, and why they were subsequently changed. After two inquiries, the Vote Office told me that the evidence was not available to hon. Members in printed form. Is it acceptable for hon. Members to debate those matters without the evidence of the Committee before us?
    Mr. Simon Hughes: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I remind the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw)—and you, Sir—that when in this Session—through no personal fault—the House has not had relevant papers, whether on the Floor of the House or upstairs in Committee, you or your colleagues have held that that offends the best procedures of the House, and on occasions have allowed the debate to be delayed until the papers are in front of us. I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether Ministers and the House authorities can be asked whether this matter can be put back until later in the week.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Robert Jackson): Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. We are to have a debate about these matters; I am here to explain about the regulations, and I do not believe that it is necessary for the House to have the minutes of evidence given by my officials. It is perfectly feasible for the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) to press any point that he wishes with me, and I shall answer it.
    Mr. Straw: With respect to the Under-Secretary of State, that is not good enough. The Joint Committee made its decisions in the light of oral evidence from officials at the Department of Education and Science. Moreover, in its notes to the House it said that oral evidence from the Department of Education and Science is printed—not "is going to be printed"—in the minutes of evidence of 26 June. Nevertheless, it is not available to the House. The Joint Committee evidently thought that it would be available before the regulations were considered by the House. I agree with the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes): it is unacceptable for the House to be expected to consider the matter in this way, and, with respect, there is no reason why the matter should not be deferred until the minutes are available.
    Mr. Simon Hughes: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. It would be sensible for us to proceed. Let us hear what the Minister has to say about the matter. Before I can hear a dilatory motion of this kind, we should hear what the Minister has got to say.
    Mr. Straw: With respect, Mr. Speaker, my point is one for you, as protector of the rights of hon. Members in respect of the Executive. The Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments said that those minutes were printed—not "going to be printed". However, they have not been printed. I do not know, and, with great respect, neither does the Secretary of State, whether the evidence given by his officials to the Joint Committee on an occasion when he was not present is relevant to the proceedings of the House. Only the minutes can tell us, but we do not have them before us. Why can you, Mr. Speaker, not suggest to the Government that the debate be deferred until we have the minutes before us?
    Mr. Speaker: I call the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer), who is Chairman of the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments.
    Mr. Bob Cryer: I was not aware that the minutes were not available. The aim of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments was that the minutes should be available to the House. The Committee took evidence from representatives from the Department of Education and Science specifically because one instrument was laid and withdrawn that was badly wrong on a number of counts. We wanted the House to have the information from the evidence that we arranged to have printed and published for the use and convenience of the House. It is not the Committee's fault of course, but I apologise to the House because the Committee intended to provide the information in the knowledge that the debate was to take place this evening.
    Mr. Dick Douglas: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Before debating these important regulations it is vital to have some insight into the thoughts of the officials. The regulations deal with officialdom and bureaucracy. If we do not have the officials' views in a manner that is acceptable to the House, surely the usual channels should be allowed to discuss the matter so that we can meet when the information is available. I hope that that suggestion meets with the approval of all hon. Members.
    Mr. Simon Hughes: Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. When these regulations came before the other place last week they were not in a form that enabled them to be debated. Proceedings were adjourned until the relevant papers in properly printed form came before the other place. I realise that the other place is not in your domain and that, like hon. Members, you are independent of the other place. However, I hope that what I have said will encourage you to the view that it would be proper for all the relevant papers to be before us. In other cases in the recent past you and your colleagues have said that we should have such documents.
    Mr. Jackson: I understand why hon. Members are making a fuss. The officials who went to the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments were speaking on my responsibility. I am here to take part in the debate and answer questions on these matters. The hon. Member for
    962
    Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) is a member of the Committee and knows that the argument being developed is fictitious.
    Mr. Cryer: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Minister has suggested that I raised an entirely false point. I was informing the House that the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments carried out the instructions contained in the Standing Order of the House. That Standing Order charged us to give an opportunity to the Department of Education and Science before reporting anything to the House. At short notice, the Committee went out of its way to allow officials to give evidence if they chose to do so. We did that as a service to the House and not in any way to raise fractious points. The Minister is wrong. The Committee, which contained hon. Members from all parts of the House, was doing the job that the House entrusted to it. I have no idea why the evidence is not available. It was not the intention of the Committee that it should not be available. The evidence given by officials to the Committee was recorded in the usual way and was expected to be printed as a service. That is in line with the Standing Order, which is an instruction to the Committee to provide that service to the House in order to illuminate the debate.
    Mr. Speaker: The problem is that I am not certain who is responsible for the document, which states:
    "The oral evidence from the Department of Education and Science is printed in the minutes of evidence of the 26th of June."
    If the Government are responsible for providing this information, then that evidence should be available, but I am not certain whose responsibility it is.
    Mr. Straw: My understanding is that the House is responsible for printing the minutes. I assume that that is the case because the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments is a Committee of the House. There is always great anxiety about issues relating to delegated legislation. That is because of the great power that is in the hands of the Executive to legislate under powers given in principal Acts. For that reason the Committee, of which my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) is Chairman, was charged with clear duties to ensure that regulations brought before the House were consistent with the principal Act. In this case, counsel advised the Committee that in three important respects the regulations were not consistent with the principal Act. The regulations were then changed.
    The Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South made clear, assumed that the minutes of evidence, including evidence given by officials, would be brought before the House. The Under-Secretary may explain away the changes, but that is not good enough. We need to know the evidence of the officials who, on the whole, possess greater detail than the junior Minister, about why the regulations were defective in three important respects—one of which affects Scottish law—and why they were subsequently changed.
    As it is the responsibility of the House to have the minutes before the Chamber, I respectfully suggest that it is your responsibility, Mr. Speaker, to say that the debate cannot proceed until we have them.
    Mr. Speaker: If the House does not have the full information, it puts it in a difficulty. Has the Minister anything to say on the matter?
    Mr. Jackson: This is a matter for the House authorities. When the House has the opportunity to see the evidence, I think that it will wonder whether it was worth making an issue of it. If the House feels that it would like to see this information, I should be perfectly willing to postpone the matter until it has seen it. That will give the House authorities an opportunity to circulate the information, as is their responsibility.
    Mr. Speaker: I think that what the Minister has suggested is the right course to take. I shall suspend the House again today for five minutes because it is unfair if the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett), who has the Adjournment debate, is not present for it. The House will resume at half-past 10 o'clock for the Adjournment debate.
    10.25 pm
    Sitting suspended.
    On resuming—

    Over-the-horizon Radar
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Chapman.]
    10.33 pm
    Mr. Nicholas Bennett: I am somewhat surprised to be addressing the House an hour and a half earlier than I thought that I would be. I have had to run to the Chamber from the other side of the Norman Shaw building in order to do so. However, I am delighted to have the opportunity to address the House on a matter of such importance to my constituents.
    I thank my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence Procurement for all the work that he has done to assist me in the past few months, ensuring that my constituents have all the information that they need to make the right decision in the coming planning process.
    It is always difficult for a Member of Parliament, on a major planning application affecting his constituency, to say that he will not make any decision on the issue until he has seen all the evidence. There is always a danger that one could be accused of calling for something in someone else's backyard but not in one's own.
    It is important that I set out the criteria on which I shall judge the application when we have seen all the evidence. An issue that concerns national defence should be one on which people make a decision based, first and foremost, on the best interests of the nation. This application will stand or fall on whether it is of such national importance that it overrides local interests. All of us, wherever we may be, have a duty to our country to ensure that, if a matter is of overriding interest to the nation, it is not opposed for simply selfish local reasons.
    I begin with the question of national defence and set a number of parameters within which I shall judge the planning application. First, is it the only site suitable for the radar installation? The Ministry of Defence says that 166 sites were examined before it decided on St. David's. From a parliamentary answer yesterday, I gather that none of those 166 sites were not in MOD ownership. That suggests that the first criterion of the MOD is whether it owns the site, and that it did not consider other sites, not in its ownership, that might have been suitable.
    Secondly, we must ask whether, if the installation goes ahead, there is any other means by which similar radar cover could be provided. Could it be done by continuous use of aircraft carrying radar to survey the area that would be covered by the installation at St. David's? I shall be interested to hear my hon. Friend's reply to that.
    Thirdly, in a period of lessening east-west tension, we must question whether there is a need for such a radar installation. I shall be interested to hear whether, in the light of improving relations with the Soviet Union, there is now a need for this defence installation. That will be of great importance to my constituents in coming months when they assess the importance of the application. Those are the questions to which my constituents will want answers.
    The second issue of great importance to my constituents is whether the radar will cause health problems for those living in the area. I cannot pretend to be an expert on the scientific arguments put forward by both sides of the debate. We have 50 years' experience of the use of radar throughout the world, so it is strange that there are now arguments that radar is dangerous to health

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    —that the electromagnetic waves can cause cancer and other illnesses. I do not know whether that is true, but if the independent environmental assessment that has been set up by the MOD to consider the health issue should report any danger to my constituents, there must not be any further debate, any further discussion of the planning issues, any further consideration of the planning application: the MOD must at once withdraw the application. The overriding concern of all hon. Members must be for the health of our constituents—
    Mr. Allan Rogers: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Bennett: I shall not give way.
    Mr. Rogers: On this point?
    Mr. Bennett: No. This is a half-hour Adjournment debate for a Back-Bench Member of Parliament representing his constituency. It is not a matter on which a Labour Front-Bench spokesman should intervene. The Opposition have all the time in the world; I have only half an hour of valuable Back-Bench time to raise this important matter.
    The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. Alan Clark): I will not give way either.
    Mr. Bennett: If the health of my constituents is in danger, the MOD must withdraw the application. I set that as the overriding priority in judging the planning application. So we have the defence grounds and the question of health.
    I draw the attention of my hon. Friend the Minister to an article published in Nature only last month, indicating a continuing debate on the issue and that it will be important both to consider the consultants' report and to examine closely any new evidence on the effect of electromagnetic waves on the human body.
    The third issue of great importance, and one against which I shall also be judging the application, is the effect on the local environment. It is important to consider the proposed siting of the radar installation, in one of the most beautiful national parks in the country.
    Mr. Allan Rogers: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I attempted to intervene earlier because I understood that this is an Adjournment debate. As I see it, there is a cosy relationship between the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett) and the Minister—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean): Order.
    Mr. Rogers: No—I want to finish making my point.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.
    Mr. Rogers: I have not finished.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have the hon. Member's point of order.
    Mr. Rogers: I have not yet put it.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have the hon. Member's point of order.
    Mr. Rogers: I have not finished.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I must ask the hon. Member to resume his seat. I have his point of order.
    Mr. Rogers: How can you have my point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when I have not made it?
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.
    Mr. Rogers: I am sorry, but there is a cosy relationship between the hon. Member for Pembroke, the Minister, and yourself, Mr. Deputy Speaker—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.
    Mr. Rogers: I am not prepared to enter into that cosy relationship. I want to contribute to the debate.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.
    Mr. Rogers: You have not heard my point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have the hon. Member's point of order, and I ask him to resume his seat.
    Mr. Rogers: No, you have not.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have the hon. Member's point of order. It is the duty of the Chair to protect the Back-Bench Member whose Adjournment debate it is. It is also the duty of the Minister to be present to answer the debate. I am sure that the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) will realise, on reflection, that no other hon. Member can intervene in an Adjournment debate unless that has the agreement of the hon. Member whose Adjournment debate it is and of the Minister. It is evident to me that the hon. Member for Rhondda does not have that agreement. Therefore, I cannot call him.
    Mr. Bennett: It is quite appalling that I should be interrupted during a very valuable—
    Mr. Rogers: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. When I tried to intervene in the speech of the hon. Member for Pembroke earlier, I accepted it when he refused to give way. That was not a problem. However, at the same time the Minister said to me from a sedentary position, "You might as well go home, because we are not going to allow the Labour Front Bench to interfere in this." If that is the view of a member of the Government, what is the point of the debate? I put it to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that this is an empty charade. A Conservative Member who is under great pressure in his constituency wants to bring his argument to the House, and he now has an answer from the Minister. The Minister has stated his position in the debate. I object to that, and I want the protection of the Chair.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: I made it clear to the hon. Member that it is the duty of the Chair to protect what is a highly-prized right for a Back-Bencher in any part of the House to raise a matter on the Adjournment of the House and to hear the Minister's reply. It is also the duty of the Chair to ensure that no other hon. Member intervenes unless there is agreement. On this occasion, it is clear that there is no such agreement. I remind the House that valuable time is being taken up in the Adjournment debate.
    Mr. Bennett: I regret that, on a matter that is of grave importance to my constituents, the Labour Front-Bench spokesman sought, without asking me, to intervene in a

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    debate that matters to my constituents and to take valuable time out of a half-hour debate which Back-Bench Members find so hard to obtain.
    My constituents are rightly worried that the large numbers of people who visit the national park each year as tourists—about 300,000 people come to Pembrokeshire each year—may be driven away by the unsightly installation of 135 ft high radio masts on one of the most beautiful spots on the Pembrokeshire coast only one and a half to two miles from the historic city of St. David's.
    Mr. Rogers: The hon. Gentleman is in favour of it.
    Mr. Bennett: The hon. Gentleman should either listen or get out. He should not attempt to interrupt the rights of a Back-Bench Member on an issue important to my constituents.
    Several questions remain to be asked about the effect on the environment if the installation is erected. The noise of the wind whistling through the pylons, the lights on the pylons that would be necessary for aircraft navigation, and the security lighting which will be put around the installation will disrupt the beauty of the environment in this particularly important part of the Pembrokeshire national park. The effect on tourism would be horrific.
    I have had almost as many letters from non-constituents as from my constituents complaining about the application and the effect that it will have on the environment. People say that it will drive them away from holidaying, as they have done year after year, in that spot.
    The environment will be an important issue. I welcome the fact that the Ministry of Defence has not only asked one set of consultants to examine the health issue but set up a second consultants' inquiry to consider the impact on the environment. I shall examine carefully the report of the consultants on the environmental impact on that part of my constituency. I have told my constituents that it will be difficult for the Ministry of Defence to convince me and the national park planning committee that the impact on the environment of such an installation will be acceptable.
    Mr. Rogers: The hon. Gentleman does not care.
    Mr. Bennett: One of the important issues that must be taken into account is the view that people have about St. David's. St. David is the patron saint of Wales. The cathedral, which goes back to the 7th century AD, is seen as a monument of national heritage, a sacred place to which the patron saint has drawn pilgrimages for well over 1,000 years. People feel strongly about such an installation being put in place on that part of the pilgrims' route, close to the cathedral.
    Mr. Rogers: The hon. Gentleman is in favour of it.
    Mr. Bennett: The hon. Gentleman keeps shouting and interrupting. I have made it clear to my constituents that I shall not come to a decision on the application until all the evidence is in. However, I believe that my constituents have every right to put their views, whether I agree with them or not. I am neutral until I have seen all the evidence. They have the right to have their views recorded in the House. My hon. Friend the Minister of State must be quite clear—he already is, but the message must be reinforced—about what their views are. These views must be put on the record. I am appalled that an official spokesman of the
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    Labour party should attempt to disrupt a Back-Bench Member's right to put forward his constituency views. It is an absolute disgrace.
    I now come to the planning issues. First, my hon. Friend the Minister made it clear in a public meeting at St. David's on 10 May that he would not use Crown immunity to override the decisions arrived at by the national park committee or the Secretary of State for Wales, if the committee went to appeal. If the national park comes out against the application, will the Ministry of Defence consider appealing to the Secretary of State for Wales? If it does, will the Secretary of State for Wales make his decision on the planning appeal on the grounds purely of environmental and planning issues, or will he be required to take into account national defence issues and any other applications made by the Ministry of Defence?
    My constituents want the answer to that question. Perhaps because it is a matter affecting the Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence Procurement cannot give that answer. I therefore ask that he should write to me with it if he cannot give it tonight.
    My constituents feel strongly about the issue and are concerned that it is not enough just to say that there will be Crown immunity; they are also concerned that the Secretary of State for Wales may have to override the normal planning procedures and to give an answer based on defence considerations and not normal planning grounds.
    It is important further to consider whether there are alternatives on national defence grounds that could be examined in greater depth. I have on a number of occasions—
    Mr. Rogers: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
    Mr. Greg Knight: This is disgraceful.
    Mr. Rogers: The hon. Member for Derby, North (Mr. Knight) says that this is disgraceful. It is hypocritical of him to say that, given that he recently sabotaged an Adjournment debate.
    The hon. Member for Pembroke—I think that he comes from Hampstead—said that a planning procedure had to be gone through. He is deliberately misleading the House—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. What is the point of order for the Chair?
    Mr. Rogers: The point of order is that the hon. Gentleman is deliberately misleading the House. This is not, despite what the hon. Gentleman is saying, subject to the normal planning procedures.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I must strongly deprecate what the hon. Gentleman is saying. I expect him, from the Opposition Front Bench, to set an example and to assist the Chair. He is not doing so at the moment, and I greatly regret it.
    Mr. Bennett: The hon. Gentleman is speaking nonsense. This matter will be considered by the Pembrokeshire coast national park committee in September. The Ministry of Defence has set in train assessment procedures. The national park committee will make its decision on the basis of the planning applications before it. If the Ministry of Defence loses the planning application, it can appeal to the Secretary of State. It also

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    has the right to claim Crown immunity, but we have the guarantee given by my hon. Friend the Minister before 700 people in St. David's city hall on 10 May that he will not use Crown immunity.
    I cannot understand the nonsense being spoken by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers). It is a pity that Labour Members have wandered in here, knowing nothing about the issue and obviously after a good meal, to interrupt a Back Bencher's speech. Their ignorant remarks show that they are trying to disrupt a Back Bencher's speech on an important constituency issue. I want to draw my remarks to a close because I know that my hon. Friend the Minister is waiting to reply and my constituents and I want to hear his comments.
    I shall finish by raising the issue of what is called the peace dividend. I have told my constituents that, first and foremost, it is important to consider the issue on national defence grounds, but it is right for my constituents to ask whether, in an era of glasnost and when tensions are lessening, we need this radar cover, whether it must be provided like this and whether there are other places where it can be provided. We are entitled to an answer to that.
    If the application fails, the Ministry should consider whether it needs to retain the site. It owns about 560,000 acres of land on 3,000 sites. This site has remained empty since the second world war. It is used now and again as an emergency landing strip for RAF Brawdy. I have the gravest reservations and concerns about the application, but I shall not make a final decision until the evidence is before us from the environment assessment study. We should then ask that the Ministry of Defence gives up the site so that it can be returned to farming and be used for the benefit of the local community. It will then not remain sterile, as it has been for the past 45 years.
    I regret that this important subject for my constituents has been interrupted by boorish and ill-mannered interventions from the Opposition. I look forward to hearing my hon. Friend's reply to this important debate.
    10.54 pm
    The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. Alan Clark): I listened with great attention to the lucid explanation of the case by my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett). I also listened with attention to the periodic interruptions from Opposition Members. We naturally welcome their presence in an Adjournment debate. They would give added flavour and quality to the debate if they conducted themselves properly. They seemed to be criticising my hon. Friend on the rather dodgy ground that he lived in Hampstead. However, that locality is a hot bed of socialist-inclined, chattering classes and I should have thought that the less said about that, the better. That is also the case with the domiciles of the leader and deputy leader of the Labour party. I am not sure of their addresses, but we know that the places where they eat, whether they are eating five-course meals or take-away curries, are not located in their constituencies.
    Mr. Nicholas Bennett: To show the level of information of the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers), I must tell the House that, although I was born in Hampstead, I have not lived there for 36 years. His information on that is as out of date as his information on everything else.
    Mr. Clark: Labour Members tend to be Hampstead-obsessed at present.
    Mr. Rogers: The hon. Member for Pembroke ( Mr. Bennett) does not live in his constituency.
    Mr. Bennett: Yes, I do.
    Mr. Rogers: Rubbish.
    Mr. Bennett: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the hon. Member for Rhondda to call me a liar? What he said is untrue. I live in Llanddewi Velfrey in my constituency. The hon. Gentleman has said a direct lie and I ask him to withdraw it.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We are getting too many points of order. If the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) used an unparliamentary word, I am sure that he would wish to withdraw it.
    Mr. Rogers: I said "Rubbish". I withdraw that.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: I thank the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Clark: That is very gracious of the hon. Gentleman.
    I want to place on record in this place the undertakings that I have already given—to which my hon. Friend drew attention and which I readily confirm—during my visit to St. David's on 10 May. The first concerns the public health implications of the proposed installation. Contrary to several alarmist reports that have circulated in the press and elsewhere, we believe that there will be no hazard to members of the public outside the boundaries of the site from the electromagnetic radiation that it would emit. We are, however, well aware of the widespread public concern on the issue and we have ensured that the health aspects will receive especially close attention in the environmental impact assessment.
    The Robens institute at Surrey university, a well-known and impartial authority on the subject, has been retained specifically to carry out the necessary studies. If, contrary to our expectations, the assessment revealed that there might be a hazard to public health from the proposed installation at St. David's, we should not proceed.
    My second undertaking concerns the planning process. As I have made clear to my hon. Friend, the Ministry is committed to following the normal planning procedures on this issue. There is no precedent for my Ministry to plead Crown immunity if planning authorities object to our proposals once we have embarked on the planning process and I have no intention that we should set such a precedent in this case. I am glad to put both those assurances on record in this place, although, as my hon. Friend has said, I made them at a public meeting in his constituency.
    I have had much correspondence on this subject, not only with my hon. Friend, but with others. I have today considered 140 questions in the House from him and from other hon. Members. However, I want to set out the background to the Ministry's proposals. They start with the continuing requirement, which is endorsed widely by all parties, to maintain the air and sea defences of this country. Of all our defence commitments, the direct defence of these islands is the last capability that we should seek to run down. In maintaining that capability, we need in particular to keep up, and if possible improve, our ability to provide early warning of any military activity in the large expanse of the Norwegian sea to the north of the United Kingdom. At present, our main means of

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    providing such cover is by airborne early warning, supplemented by ship-borne and shore-based microwave radar, although those are of comparatively short range.
    Even when our present AEW aircraft are replaced by the new fleet of Boeing Sentry aircraft, it will be time consuming and expensive to use them to give full coverage to the air defence regions of the north. In some circumstances, that could actually be regarded as provocative. Such circumstances do not attach to a purely static radar system on one's own territory.
    For some time, the principle of over-the-horizon radar has offered in theory a solution to the problem of maintaining wide-area, long-range cover of the region. The idea of over-the-horizon radar is simple: radio waves of the right frequency can be made to refract from the ionosphere, which is the layer of atmosphere 200 miles up, to points well beyond the visible horizon. Those that bounce back off a target are refracted back to a receiver, which can detect position, course and speed.
    For some time, we have been engaged in joint studies with the United States, aimed at determining whether the system could look northward from the United Kingdom. The Americans have already installed working systems in Virginia and Alaska, but looking southward.
    Mr. Paul Flynn: We are all familiar with the stories abut the Woodpecker system from Russia; we have heard about it for many years. But with even a modest knowledge of geography, one is puzzled about why the system should be situated in Pembrokeshire rather than on the east coast. What sites were considered and what alternative sites did the Ministry have in mind?
    Mr. Clark: If the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends had not consumed so much time in somewhat ill-mannered protests, I might have been able to deal with those details in my speech. But I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the
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    whole question of the location of the site has been very carefully considered; it is a function of range and of the area that has to be covered. One does not start getting an image until one has a gap of approximately 400 to 500 miles between the transmitter and the area that one is intending to cover. That is why the system must be situated on a particular latitude. The problem is that the further north one goes, the less reliable the ionosphere becomes, and auroral noise effects could be significant.
    Studies alone could not show whether the system would work in British latitudes. Only a full-scale trial can demonstrate that one way or another. We have therefore reached an agreement in principle, following on from our joint studies, that the United States will provide a fully working system for trial in this country.
    Mr. Rhodri Morgan: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Clark: No. I am afraid that I cannot give way. We have very little time and I have already given way to the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn).
    We shall find and prepare sites for the transmitter and receiver facilities and the running costs of the trial and all the information coming out of it will be shared. We also agree in principle that, if the trial is successful, we will then consider whether to retain the system as an operational facility. I emphasise the words "in principle". The agreement was subject to appropriate national approvals being granted in our case, and that includes not only the necessary finance but the necessary planning permissions. The proviso was written into the memorandum of understanding between our two Governments signed on 20 April, a copy of which I have placed in the Library.
    The motion having been made after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
    Adjourned at three minutes past Eleven o'clock.